I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
I guess that now is a good time to become a member of ACLU.org.
*Sigh*
hilarious.
We should just offer to pre-torture them, then hand them over. That way, we'll be certain only Alberto Gonzalez-approved methods have been used.
Hahahahahah.....
Seriously, that's pretty goddamn funny.
of course, the chinese might make them assemble our $50 costco DVD players.
or build Mattel Barbies.
or any number of the millions of consumer goods we purchase to (1) keep profits high at "american" companies and (2) underwrite the police state that is communist china.
of course, i used to feel morally superior to them.
not any more.
So the chinese government wants to haze them?
I don't see how we can possibly protest sending them to China over the concern they are going to be tortured when we're already sending arab and other muslims to places like Syria, etc knowing they will be tortured????
MYOB'
.
Hey America Freedom tortures, China Commie tortures.
World o' difference there.
Sigh. I guess the Chinese authorities' track record is more towards torture as defined in the various conventions against same, but, quite frankly, they ought to take a hard look at what's going on at Gitmo etc and see if it's any better.
I wonder what the alternative is - can they be released to some other neutral country and tried under Chinese law there? (Just thinking of the case of the Libyans responsible for the Lockerbie bombing who were tried under Scottish law in the Netherlands.)
I guess that now is a good time to become a member of ACLU.org.
ACLU - American Communists and Liberals Union
If everybody sent these bastards a mirror for christmas, do you think they would get it?
mena,
No. That would require thought.
Don't worry, AG Alberto "Abu Gharib" Gonzazlez will get right on it...
Talk about folks being between a rock and hard place.
I wonder how this administration is reacting to the deal China just made with Iran. Iran will be providing liquid natural gas to China, the deal could be worth as much as $200 billion. This would be Iran biggest contract ever.
Another proxy war on the way, although it may be more economically based.
"I guess that now is a good time to become a member of ACLU.org.
ACLU - American Communists and Liberals Union
The True Conservative"
True Asshole is more accurate!
Hey, if Alberto Gonzales gets shot down for AG, maybe he can be Ambassador to China.
Ignore all trolls. I don't know enough about the ACLU to support it wholeheartedly, but civil liberties are always a good thing to try and lobby for whenever stuff like this comes up.
The True Conservative, aren't you clever. I never knew torture was a conservative value. I suppose it must fall under the "family values" umbrella.
Anyway, thanks for giving more visibility to ACLU in this thread, though.
Well Donald Rumsfeld gets tortured for 8 hours a day, so obviously it can't be that bad, right?
Just to be safe, before we send them back to China we should have Abu Ghraib Gonzalez look over the case and then authorize the torture himself.
Why bother to outsource it when we have trained and experienced war criminals available in this country? Lou Dobbs would wet himself if we exported even more jobs.
What happens on Bizarro World, stays on Bizarro world.
My life is shit.
China's leaders make me sick.
TheaLogie, you should read on ACLU and make up your mind. Wether it be their list of accomplishments on their website or info from a more neutral source like Wikipedia.
the loud whooshing sound you hear is the sound of this story going right over right-wingers heads.
And the ACLU is great. They definitely need your support.
Warning, irony and outrage reaching critical levels!
Anybody else have the feeling there's somebody from the future running around for the last three years trying to tell us to "STOP IT?"
OT - found something interesting in an 1840 dictionary:
birth - the act of coming into life, of being born
fetus - the young of viviparous animals in the womb, and oviparous animals in the egg, after it is perfectly formed; before which time it is called embryo
abortion - the act of miscarrying, or producing young before the natural time; the fetus brought forth before it is perfectly formed
draw your own conclusions
Breaking news!...
WASHINGTON
The savagely beaten corpse of Irony was found today in a deserted alley behind the White House.
The famous rhetorical concept has been missing for four years and has long been suspected to have been the victim of foul play. Investigators have found evidence that while Irony struggled mightily against her attackers, she was eventually overcome by repeated blows dealt by blunt political instruments.
While there are no suspects at present, sources have said that Gross Ignorance, Blind Stupidity, Sheer Mendacity, and Wilful Incompetence have been brought in for questioning. It is feared that the murder is the work of the notorious criminal mastermind, Unbelievable Hubris.
Friends of Irony have expressed their sorrow and worry. "We just can't help but feel we might be next. Who knows how far this gang will go to carry out their evil ends?" said Irony's former associate, Simple Logic, as her close friend, The Social Fabric, nodded vigorously in agreement.
wÒÓ†,
Nuh-uh. Ain't fallin' for it.
So fluffy!!!
The ACLU supports communists and liberals like Rush Limbaugh in his drug case. Rush is a commie, pass it on.
Listening to the Firesign Theatre right now: "Everyone has one or two great ideas in their life, and mine was simple: we're all doomed . . . but just because we're surrounded by evil doesn't mean you can't make some money from it."
Thersites-Too bad about irony. What about contigency and solidarity?
...Guantanmo or China - talking about being stuck between a rock and a woodchipper...
Political Physics
my irony meter broke again, and i'm tired of fixing it.
Ah, Thersites. I see what NYMary sees in you.
And if I may add:
Irony's parents, Social Contract and Self-Awareness were unavailable for comment.
the Iraq situation is really depressing me...
we've been hearing about 18 U.S. dead in the Fallujah operation, but at least 33 have been killed in Iraq since the 8th...
yeeeeaaaaarrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhh!
OT, but I bet Bill Frist gets all wet when he sees this
Uighurs? They're the Chechens of China. Al-Qaeda-ized in order to fit with Chimpy Augustus's dimwitted narrative.
Am I the only one with the paranoid thought that the U.S. doesn't want to send them back to China because, once China discovers that we tortured their citizens, China's gonna be awfully pissed?
I mean, the British government basically gave us a pass on torturing their citizens because we're allies and they're stuck with us, but I have a feeling China wouldn't cut us the same break.
We torture Nicer!
USA! USA!
More on the Uighurs here. Not so long ago, some wingnuts were claiming Bin Laden was hiding out with them. Yeah, right. Next up, we'll hear that he's hiding out in San Francisco with all those gays.
That did it.
My head just exploded.
Thanks a lot, you guys. Now who's gonna clean up this mess?
Have you guys read about the Dresden nostalgia that is going on in Fallujah?
Using white phosphorous rounds in a civilian city:
first
second
Well, now Kafka and Beckett look like realists.
I can't decide if that's comforting, or not.
But at least I enjoy reading Kafka and Beckett. Maybe I can enjoy learning to live them, too.
Chinese Inquisitor:
We have ways of making you talk. Tell us what depravities were visited upon you in Guantanamo by the captialist pigs.
I never knew torture was a conservative value.
Don't know about that, but hatred is definitely a Christian value, if you're Bob Jones. See posting on previous thread.
Irony's parents, Social Contract and Self-Awareness were unavailable for comment.
Irony's god-parents. Surely Irony's parents are Reason and Reality (because the marriage of the true necessarily produces....)
Well, they don't try to convert you into Christianity after the torture.
Sounds like we got a little United Nations down there in Gitmo...United Nations of Torture...Torturous United Nations....
Come to Gitmo, where you too, can become one of the chosen, one of the favored few. Come to Gitmo where the United States government intends to torture at least one person from ever civilized nation on the face of the earth. Yellow and brown. White and black. Strong of limb, and fleet of foot. I have no doubt that you will acquit yourselves admirably and with distinction as torture victims. May God have mercy on your soul.
Mikhail Capone-Aaaaah, white phospherous!
-General Jack D. Ripper
I think you've lost perspective if you think how China treats its prisoners is akin to how the U.S. does.
I've been to China, and seen an officer beat a woman in the street, with people just looking on.
So get a freaking perspective.
these poor guys are in deep shit no matter what. no justice.
My cousin broke his own neck trying to suck his own dick.
RMJ,
I humbly submit that it is Friday, and my mental capabilities, while limited to start with, are now nil. I defer to you, as always. (I managed to escape logic by majoring in anthropology).
Maybe Irony was adopted?
This makes as much sense as "prolife" Fundies shopping at Walmart, buying all that crap that's made in China. You know, the country that forces abortions.
The torture's only half of it. We also hear that China conducts a lot of executions. What a lack of respect for life.
The True Conservative missed the memo:
Rush says the ACLU is A-OK now!
Good Morning Fallujah!!
The Chinese government may torture them.
To be fair, we torture people different from the Chinese. The Chinese torture you. An hour passes, and it's like nothing happened.
Sorry.
Steen - I guess you haven't gotten the memo about how immigrants in prison in North Carolina have had dogs used on them just like in Abu Ghraib.
*sigh*
I'm tired of crying. I think I need to buck up because all of this is just the fucking start.
So get a freaking perspective.
Streen
streen, I think you also need some perspective.
Of course China's human rights abuses in general are much worse than they are in the US. There justice system is disgusting.
However, the whole point of gitmo is that it allows the US to treat these people as if they were in China or other such inhumane nation.
And another good org, besides the ACLU, is Amnesty International.
Maybe Irony was adopted?
By all of us.
I've been to China, and seen an officer beat a woman in the street, with people just looking on.
We've seen the same thing here, except we got it on videotape. The person as Rodney King.
And did the Chinese then take her to prison, rape her, photograph her naked, and torture her children before her eyes? If not, then we're way up on 'em on the torture scale.
We're No. 1! And there's nothing lower than No. 1.
I've been to China, and seen an officer beat a woman in the street, with people just looking on.
You must not live in a big city like Los Angeles or New York, where a police beating only matters if it gets caught on tape. Otherwise, it's just another day in the 'hood.
Streen-So you have scale of torturing? Is it in AbuGraib units? Is it a ratio scale, i.e., is Chinese torture twice as evil? I guess we do not have to pay attention to the Geneva Convention. We can just say, "The Chinese are meaner."
And another good org, besides the ACLU, is Amnesty International.
Tena
Donate to AI every month, via credit card. It's great. Just set it up to take X out of your card every month. No muss, no fuss.
You know, I was about to comment on this, but then my head exploded.
I think you've lost perspective if you think how China treats its prisoners is akin to how the U.S. does.
I've been to China, and seen an officer beat a woman in the street, with people just looking on.
So get a freaking perspective.
sounds like police brutality against a civilian, not torture of a prisoner. at any rate, we have that too here in the u.s.(as various video tapes have proven).
and is it better that we keep it behind closed doors?
but we don't torture people. the major media networks told me so. and that's enough for me.
only communists and elite liberal college educateds think that something could possibly be happening if both the president and the media deny it.
I dunno. Maybe Gonzales can convince the Chinese that we did such a good job torturing the prisoners that they don't have to . . . unless they really want to, of course.
Absolutely no self-awareness whatsoever.
HEY Streen,
Not many of us can say we've been to China but then again China doesn't really mask the fact that it tortures people now does it?
And we all KNOW 'Murkins DO IN FACT torture people. They just do it "in private"
And yet 'Murkins STILL look on.
How ya like me now?
For the thread-goers here, get your kitten on.
one of my biggest disagreements with the clinton administration was the de-linking of trade and human rights abuses.
I think the real reason is we don't want to give away to the Chinese our prowess in the torture arts. Next thing you'll know, you'll be able to buy counterfeit Abu Ghraib on Broadway.
streen's the same kind of idiot who would, when trying to explain the massive homicide rate in america, say it's just because america has a 'culture of violence', and that we're like that because of 'the wild west' mentality, because cowboys were our ancestors, etc.
and then he would say 'guns don't kill people, people do.'
rationalizing with these people is so far beyond hope.
Robert M. Jeffers:
Looks like we are all waiting for Godot.
Shorter Streen
We torture..BUT NOT IN PUBLIC! Geez!
See them Chinese use that awful water torture method, while we use the much more humane glowstick-up-the-pooter method. That's the difference between us and them.
Oh, and:
I've been to China, and seen an officer beat a woman in the street, with people just looking on.
So get a freaking perspective.
So your point is that our police do their torturing in interrogation rooms instead of out in the open? Look up Commander Jon Burge of Chicago some time.
Don't understand this protectionist stance on torturing... thought outsourcing was supposed to be a good thing.
Robert M. Jeffers:
Looks like we are all waiting for Godot.
Shall we go, then?
I think you've lost perspective if you think how China treats its prisoners is akin to how the U.S. does.
I've been to China, and seen an officer beat a woman in the street, with people just looking on.
As opposed to us- we do it behind closed doors, or in safe zones like GITMO.... or better yet, we farm it out to countries who do it openly.
Nope, I think we just don't want china to know we're torturing people cause we won't be able to hold a human rights stick over them anymore.
AG = Attorney General
AG = Alberto Gonzalez
AG = abu Ghraib.
Coincidence, or the hand of Jesus?
I'll pray on this and get back to you.
you know, it seems like everyday there is something else that makes my head hurt. you know the response in lala fantasy-land, if they even hear about the story, is {shrug}. Which makes my head hurt even worse. why don't the so-called values voters (SCVV) have any values? if they actually had any, they'd be marching in the streets denouncing torture. oh wait, you mean the godless heathens have...
hate to pile on streen, but the likes of that simpleton are the root cause of our nation's drift towards moral rot...
just because the human rights abuses are horrific and systemic in China, he/she can't face the fact that awful, disgusting things happen here, or even in gitmo.
Thanks John for feeding my kitten addiction.
Now I'll never be cured.
Then there was the prisoner in New York City (the name escapes me, though it shouldn't).
Took him into a closet in the police station, beat him with a broken off mop handle, and then sodomized him with it.
But it was behind closed doors, so that was okay.
And besides, it was Americans. Let's get some perspective, okay?
Our nation needs an enema. Watch the video in my homepage. Very well done and very impactful.
Yup. There's irony a plenty in this But, at the same time, the ugly truth is put into stark relief for us of how little different at this point in our history we are from a regime that puts respect for human rights somewhere near the bottom of the scale (if it is on the scale at all). I'm laughin'....but I'm cryin' at the same time.
Our nation needs an enema. Watch the video in my homepage.
Now that, Sir, is strange invitation.
RMJ- I believe Abner Luima(Ruima?) is the gentlemans name.
What the fuck!
I'm laughing because only after reading your post repeating my post did I realize how hysterial my post was (when not even trying)
Funny.
So I guess it's official: Irony is dead.
Bush=Hitler
"The savagely beaten corpse of Irony was found today in a deserted alley behind the White House.
The famous rhetorical concept has been missing for four years and has long been suspected to have been the victim of foul play. Investigators have found evidence that while Irony struggled mightily against her attackers, she was eventually overcome by repeated blows dealt by blunt political instruments.
While there are no suspects at present, sources have said that Gross Ignorance, Blind Stupidity, Sheer Mendacity, and Wilful Incompetence have been brought in for questioning. It is feared that the murder is the work of the notorious criminal mastermind, Unbelievable Hubris.
Friends of Irony have expressed their sorrow and worry. "We just can't help but feel we might be next. Who knows how far this gang will go to carry out their evil ends?" said Irony's former associate, Simple Logic, as her close friend, The Social Fabric, nodded vigorously in agreement.
Thersites | Email | Homepage | 11.12.04 - 1:07 pm | "
I think the culprit was that evil, inscrutable supervillain, Som Sey.
Mr. Jeffers,
That would be Abner Louima
http://tinyurl.com/4h2x3
I love that our next president was so close to this case.
RMJ,
Abner Louima
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/tor...re/
torture.html
And don't forget his spiritual brother, Amadou Diallo, the unarmed man who did nothing wrong shot in a stairwell over 40 times - including in the bottom of his feet.
Fuck that asshole, Rudy Guliani, too.
And what did you do, Streen, when you saw the Chinese police officer beating the woman right there on the street?
Obviously, you raised your proud voice against brutality. Oh wait, you did no such thing? You said nothing at all despite your privileged western status?
You failed to criticize brutality when you saw it, and now you criticize those who want to end torture in both countries. You are the ultimate coward.
So R.M. Jeffers, maybe the Chinese can make cheaper trash cans for us to live in?
Thanks John for feeding my kitten addiction.
Now I'll never be cured.
four legs good
Having gotten a 9-week-old kitten nearly 8 months ago, I understand the gravity of such an addiction.
Luckily, our new kitten oddly cures us of it, since he's turned out to be a baby Balrog in disguise.
do you remember that time that black immigrant in new york was shot 41 times when he tried to take out his wallet while being chased by cops?
why do you remember that, you communists mother fuckers? this is america, you liberal traitors.
9/11
9/11
9/11 (we will never forget)
If there is any delay in handing them over it is probably due to contract negotiations. Since outsourcing manufacturing/engineering/customer service is good for the country, then outsourcing torture should also be beneficial. I don't even think Thumbscrew Al has to write a new memo. Just think of all the possibilities...
9/11 -We will never forget (that Saddam was responsible).
So R.M. Jeffers, maybe the Chinese can make cheaper trash cans for us to live in?
I think they already are.
Luckily, our new kitten oddly cures us of it, since he's turned out to be a baby Balrog in disguise.
Aren't they all? (Memories of first two kittens during early marriage in married student housing, climbing the clothes hanging on rods in the bedroom, unshielded by closet doors. And next kitten, several years later, leaping to hang by claws from wife's hand. He got declawed quick. Ahh...good times...good times...and then the one that breathed fire and brandished a whip.....)
HEZBURRAH!
Oh, thanks to one and all for recalling Mr. Louima's name for my poor, overloaded memory chips.
The real memory burned out years ago, overcome by events. Now I rely on cheap foreign-made replacement parts, which just don't work as well.....
Add Patrick Dorismond to the list, too, who was shot to death by an undercover police officer when Dorismond became angry that the officer asked to buy marijuana from him.
In case it needed to be said, it turns out that Dorismond was NOT a drug dealer, just a random black man standing on the street.
It's worth remembering that China has been fairly supportive of America's version of the"War on Terror" - and probably in no small part because if *they* turn a blind eye to our abuses in Gitmo, we'll be more inclined to ignore any semi-shady activities of theirs in Xinjiang with Uighur (and Kazakh as well, I think) separatists. It'll be interesting to see if the prisoners become a wedge issue that leads to an international public-relations contest over which government is more torture-happy.
Sadly, I think the US is far more likely to give China a run for her money today on that score than we were four years ago.
Gotta love it when people with NO SOULS start preaching to ME about "morality" and "values."
HEZBURRITO!
So you're equating Chinese torture with holding suspected terrorists at Guantanamo Bay?
And don't forget his spiritual brother, Amadou Diallo, the unarmed man who did nothing wrong shot in a stairwell over 40 times - including in the bottom of his feet.
Fuck that asshole, Rudy Guliani, too.
I'll say. He's someone who really NEEDs to be stomped by all eight of our legs. He's a mega-asshole.
"Thanks John for feeding my kitten addiction.
Now I'll never be cured.
four legs good | Email | Homepage | 11.12.04 - 1:40 pm | "
You barbarian! Stop eating kittens!
OK, now I get it. Guantanamo is a humanitarian institution intended to give political asylum to freedom fighters endangered in their homelands.
Watch the Bushies try to spin their way out of this one! Yes, we subject you to arbitrary, indefinite, and incommunicado detention and torture. But we'll save you from the real bad guys!
"The connection between vice and meanness is a fit subject for satire, but when the satire is a fact, it cuts with the irresistible power of a diamond." - Thomas Paine
Was it Verbal Irony, or his popular cousin Situational?
In case it needed to be said, it turns out that Dorismond was NOT a drug dealer, just a random black man standing on the street.
Well, there you go. What was he doing, standing on the street in the first place?
Huh?
This is America, after all. We gotta keep our streets safe!
I mean, at least the officer didn't beat him first. That would be outrageous!
Let's keep some perspective, okay?
(When does my trash can arrive?)
HEPBULLAH
"Then there was the prisoner in New York City (the name escapes me, though it shouldn't).
Took him into a closet in the police station, beat him with a broken off mop handle, and then sodomized him with it.
But it was behind closed doors, so that was okay.
And besides, it was Americans. Let's get some perspective, okay?
Robert M. Jeffers | Email | Homepage | 11.12.04 - 1:41 pm |"
Amadou Dialo (sp).
9/11
The Bush White House was behind it.
Monkey Boy's approval rating was in the toilet so they asked the Bush Family's old business partner, Osama, to help out.
They also needed something drastic to start taking away our civil liberties one by one.
You fascist, braindead asshole!
9/11 (we will never forget)
big brother
fuck you big brother.
I had friends die there, so i'll never forget.
Killing and torturing people isn't going to bring them back and doesn't make me feel better.
And when we're killing civilians it actually compounds the pain for me.
So, once again, go fuck yourself.
It's not about torture. It's about money and leverage. The US is the world's #1 debtor nation and China is the major creditor. The US dollar is very weak due, in large part, to the increasing debt.
This is a way to make a payment and keep the creditor happy without raising interest rates significantly on future debt.
So you're equating Chinese torture with holding suspected terrorists at Guantanamo Bay?
Cruz
Not exactly equating. China is responsible for some horrific acts of torture - just ask any proponent of Falun Gong. But Gonzales' scorn for the Geneva Conventions makes one wonder (especially in the light of testimony from some former detainees) how exactly the "enemy combatants" are being treated at Gitmo.
It's worth remembering that China has been fairly supportive of America's version of the"War on Terror" - and probably in no small part because if *they* turn a blind eye to our abuses in Gitmo, we'll be more inclined to ignore any semi-shady activities of theirs in Xinjiang with Uighur
wasn't there something a while back where china said they would come out in support of our 'anti-terror' tactics if we only were to give our blessing to their policy towards tibet? or at least promise we wouldn't interfer or comment? i have a terrible memory, but maybe someone else recalls this event better.
i wonder what the conservatards have to say about this. and extra credit for making a hypothetical judgment on what would have happened in World War II had we dealt with other countries in this way.
Memories of first two kittens during early marriage in married student housing, climbing the clothes hanging on rods in the bedroom, unshielded by closet doors.
LOL! Had two kittens just like that! I once woke in the middle of the night, turned on the light, and and found the sister kitty hanging from the top of the lace curtains, her brother making his way up.
You barbarian! Stop eating kittens!
But they're so delicious!!
And in a pinch you can play poker with them.
So you're equating Chinese torture with holding suspected terrorists at Guantanamo Bay?
Well, since the government is equating "suspected" with "anybody we happen to have taken against their will, or to have in custody at the moment, for any reason whatsoever, and removed to a foreign country, without due process or any intention of providing due process, all of which contravenes the legal meaning of 'suspect,'" well...yeah.
So you're equating Chinese torture with holding suspected terrorists at Guantanamo Bay?
British citizens formerly held at Guantanamo report that they were frequently beaten by U.S. troops during interrogations. I guess, to you, it's only "torture" if other nations do it -- otherwise, it's just "hazing" or "good old American fun," eh?
Here's some of the testimony from the Brits as reported in the Independent UK: http://tinyurl.com/56d6s
Mnemosyne, yes, the Dorsimond case is one of those that was so truly unbelievable that I couldn't believe it.
YooHooligan,
You can also place Putin and Russia firmly in that camp with China.
"Welcome aboard the brutality train, Preznit Bush!"
I can't believe I actually laughed...but ya gotta laugh, it's just so ludicrous as to be unreal.
Bill Hicks, where are you when we need you?
And besides, it was Americans.
And it was justified because Amadou Diallo was black.
Ah, my city's finest. Makes me so proud.
(wretching noises)
LOL! Had two kittens just like that! I once woke in the middle of the night, turned on the light, and and found the sister kitty hanging from the top of the lace curtains, her brother making his way up.
We had to lock them out of the bedroom at night (it was a race, every evening, and not just to bed my newlywedded wife!).
Some mornings as I woke, I swore there was a herd of lions trying to get into the room, instead of two tiny cuddly kittens...
with claws like straight pins and teeth like daggers....
kittens are so cute!
And in a pinch you can play poker with them.
Yeah, but shuffling them is a real bitch.
So you're equating Chinese torture with holding suspected terrorists at Guantanamo Bay?
Cruz
Thanks for playing.
The idea that they're worse torturers than us doesn't make it okay.
We've got them beat on the "invade countries and bomb the shit out of them" front though. I'm sure that makes the wingers proud.
9/11 (we will never forget)
big brother
Well, we don't have a chance to forget since the Bush White House hoists up the biggest intelligence fuck-up ever (on its watch, nonetheless) every day, as if it's the test with a good grade you slap on the fridge.
Christ, does the White House honestly think that if they don't metaphorically thrown death and carnage at us every five minutes that we'll all develop Alzheimer's about what happened on Sept. 11?
(I know: rhetorical question. They keep talking about it to shape its history in our common perception, but still...all this necrophilia and hype needs to get toned down)
"You barbarian! Stop eating kittens!
But they're so delicious!!
And in a pinch you can play poker with them.
four legs good | Email | Homepage | 11.12.04 - 2:02 pm | "
I tried that, but they keep chewing on the cards and batting the chips all over the place.
And in a pinch you can play poker with them.
Spike? That you?
Mnemosyne, yes, the Dorsimond case is one of those that was so truly unbelievable that I couldn't believe it.
Tom Tomorrow had a heart-rending cartoon about it:
http://tinyurl.com/4tdko
Christ, does the White House honestly think that if they don't metaphorically thrown death and carnage at us every five minutes that we'll all develop Alzheimer's about what happened on Sept. 11?
Um, we already have. Well, at least half of the country has.
Bush=Hitler
Oh, come on.
That is a completely unfair comparison.
Hitler actually served in his country's military.
(I know: rhetorical question. They keep talking about it to shape its history in our common perception, but still...all this necrophilia and hype needs to get toned down)
Mmmmmm...kittens, torture, morbid fascination with violence, and sex with corpses.
No wonder I keep coming back here. It's like an addiction.
You can also place Putin and Russia firmly in that camp with China.
wasn't it funny watching the conservatards spin like merry go rounds when they wanted to blame russia for conspiring against the UN Food For Oil Program. but then putin came out in support of bush, and essentially said we would be signing our own death warrants if kerry was elected (way to get the talking points, vlad!)
the right should have stuck with the first theory, of them conspiring, because if you really wanna know why russia came out for bush, it's because they want their hands free to strangle chechnya, and know bush will allow this... because we're now playing a global game of 'stay out of my room and i'll stay out of yours'.
yay!
So you're equating Chinese torture with holding suspected terrorists at Guantanamo Bay?- Cruz
The troll plays the moral relatavism card- and here, I thought they were moral absolutists, guess that only applies to TROTW
I've been to China, and seen an officer beat a woman in the street, with people just looking on.
So get a freaking perspective.
Streen:
I've been to South Central Los Angeles, and seen an officer beat a woman in the street, with people just looking on.
So why don't you get a perspective.
Guantanamo Gonzales maybe a torturing bastard, but he is our bastard.
gnb
Has anyone else heard about tanks showing up at an L.A. Peace protest?
I tried to link to the video but apparently the site is down.
http://tinyurl.com/6ara5
Seraphiel @ 2:08 priceless
with claws like straight pins and teeth like daggers....
kittens are so cute!
Sigh. I miss my kitties. They would pin me at night so I couldn't move (the 22 pounder behind my knees, his sister, weighing in at 18, against my chest); they would drive my beau at the time crazy by sleeping on his head.
I like cats. They're gleefully evil.
RJM - Our year old cat cannot be broken from bloodying our feet when we're trying to sleep. He chases toes under the blankets.
I sympathize. But I love my cat just the same.
Can we not all agree that the Right is a bunch of satan worshipping anti-Christ followers?
Works for me.
its o.k., everybody...
cruz and streen are only 90% like Nazis!
I apologize if its only 70%, or 55% or 15% - or whatever level is acceptable to them!
Gotta love it when people with NO SOULS start preaching to ME about "morality" and "values."
Oh yeah?
whaddaya call THESE?
(proffers burlap bag full of smoking turds)
Has anyone else heard about tanks showing up at an L.A. Peace protest?
I tried to link to the video but apparently the site is down.
Shit, I don't know why I bother...
The event happened on Nov. 9. I've seen stills and video. The figure in the lead vehicle looks strongly like Master Chief from the Halo video game series.
Nov. 9 marked the worldwide release of Halo 2 for the Xbox. Halo parties all over the world.
I'm very sure that the whole thing was a game promotion gone awry. Each side didn't know about the other. The vehicles rolled up to the stoplight, waited for the road to be clear, then moved on.
Creepy images, yes, but I strongly believe it was something else entirely.
We've nearly become the parboilers of torture. USA...we'll loosen 'em up, you polish 'em off...
It's kinda like those ubiquitous "half-baked" piazza parlors in the Pacific NW. The concept was always lost on me but they were enormously popular.
Maybe that was were Rummy got the original idea for Gitmo!
No wonder I keep coming back here. It's like an addiction.
That's the inherent beauty of the typical Eschatonian -- the ability to interweave diverse ideas into one common thread.
How quaint.
Russia is now a capitalist nation, so they're OK now. Doesn't matter how evil they are, as long as the Commies are out of power, True Americans should support and respect them.
China is a big trade partner of ours, so they're OK now. Doesn't matter how evil they are, as long as the Commies are acting like capitalists, True Americans should support and respect them.
Right Wing America, meet Moral Relativism. Moral Relativism, meet Right Wing America. The two of you should get along famously.
We're maxed out at three cats, now. I had to make a rule: the number of cats cannot exceed the number of humans.
It's still imbalanced, but it's one I can live with. One is huge and thinks my daughter is his mother. Or his soul. I can't quite decide which. One is shy, and shadows my wife. The third seeks my lap at every opportunity, so he can drool.
My favorite cat is gone now. Smartest animal I've ever known (one of the kittens who terrorized my early marriage sleep). When we euthanized him (he had a stroke, he needed it), he looked at us and, I swear, said it was "okay."
I don't anthropomorphize animals, but no rationalist or materialist can convince me that cat didn't know what was happening, and how we felt about him.
"Can we not all agree that the Right is a bunch of satan worshipping anti-Christ followers?
Works for me.
Tena | Email | Homepage | 11.12.04 - 2:12 pm |"
I second that emotion.
WINNER!
Yasonyacky has won today's KICK THE LIVING SHIT OUT OF A TROLL award.
Well done. Excellent retort.
Hitler actually served in his country's military.
Plus Hitler had a plan. Of course, the plan consisted of stealing all the Jews' possessions and then killing them, but at least Hitler was able to adapt to circumstances and get things done.
My favorite cat is gone now. Smartest animal I've ever known (one of the kittens who terrorized my early marriage sleep). When we euthanized him (he had a stroke, he needed it), he looked at us and, I swear, said it was "okay."
Ah, damn...same exact thing happened to me and my wife when we had to put our 8-year-old black kitty Maya to sleep after she got an aggressive cancer. She was incredibly docile throughout her final hours, from taking her to the vet and bidding her into that good night. She let us know that it was time to go, and I have never seen a more stoic nature than in her feline eyes and demeanor.
If there is any delay in handing them over it is probably due to contract negotiations. Since outsourcing manufacturing/engineering/customer service is good for the country, then outsourcing torture should also be beneficial. I don't even think Thumbscrew Al has to write a new memo. Just think of all the possibilities...
OK, try this one for the tanks at the LA protest
http://tinyurl.com/49qmt
So you're equating Chinese torture with holding suspected terrorists at Guantanamo Bay?
Holding suspected terrorists? Did you say HOLDING?
They wish they were only being held. Hey, how about you taking a little trip down to Gitmo and check yourself in for some holding. And let us know how it felt... if you ever make it back... Thanks!
*
I don't anthropomorphize animals, but no rationalist or materialist can convince me that cat didn't know what was happening, and how we felt about him.
I'm getting teary thinking about them. Theo went the same way (started out as a blood clot), and his sister Cassie died of cancer almost to the day a year later. They were the best cats I ever lived with (and in my family, which had cats, dogs, iguanas, parrots, turtles, squirrels, hamsters, gerbils, horned toads, and for a day, a chicken), that was saying something.
Indeed Yasonyacky.
Hold your head high. That was mucho grande.
RMJ,
I'll beat Thersites to it: recently heard from a cheap Chinese garbage can : "I want me pap!"
My favorite cat is gone now. Smartest animal I've ever known (one of the kittens who terrorized my early marriage sleep). When we euthanized him (he had a stroke, he needed it), he looked at us and, I swear, said it was "okay."
I've been told (though I don't know which book it's in) that C.S. Lewis addresses the possibility that our pets will meet us again in the afterlife. It's basically, no, animals in general don't have souls, but by loving our pets and teaching them to love us, we "loan" them a bit of our souls.
It's a nice thought. Fortunately, my 11-year-old and 8-year-old kitties are in blooming (if chubby) health and hopefully will remain so for a while to come.
I've been told (though I don't know which book it's in) that C.S. Lewis addresses the possibility that our pets will meet us again in the afterlife. It's basically, no, animals in general don't have souls, but by loving our pets and teaching them to love us, we "loan" them a bit of our souls.
Bullshit. I'm sure my deceased kitty Maya is lecturing C.S. Lewis as we speak.
for taking away her uterus and claws, my tabby says "I'll see you in hell, bastard!"
all she can do to me in this earthly world is yack on the carpet and miss the box.
So you're equating Chinese torture with holding suspected terrorists at Guantanamo Bay?
Goddamn right I am, asshole.
If "suspected" means "because Rashid Dostum says so". Which, according to the best information I can find, it does.
that all you got?
In the absence of Friday catblog I feel inspired to quote B. Kliban's immortal cat-song:
Love to eat them mousies…
Mousies what I love to eat...
Bite they little heads off,
Nibble on they tiny feet...
Down to one cat now from two. Moles, no longer terrorized by gingercat, have reduced front yard to maze of tunnels...
RMJ,
I'll beat Thersites to it: recently heard from a cheap Chinese garbage can : "I want me pap!"
Thanks.
I'll be laughing the rest of the day on that (which gives you some indication of the quality of this day!)
Bullshit. I'm sure my deceased kitty Maya is lecturing C.S. Lewis as we speak.
I don't think I was very clear -- basically Lewis says, yes, your pets will meet you in the afterlife but, say, random squirrels who never have human contact will not.
Don't worry -- I think Lewis was a cat lover, so I'm sure Maya has a nice warm lap to sleep in while she's waiting ... ;^)
I think you've lost perspective if you think how China treats its prisoners is akin to how the U.S. does.
I've been to China, and seen an officer beat a woman in the street, with people just looking on.
So get a freaking perspective.
Here's my freaking perspective: We're supposed to be the good guys. Being the good guys means you don't torture people. Simple enough?
Donate to AI every month, via credit card.
Read a bunch of stuff - think from Palast - that really paints AI as more of an enabler organiztion when it comes to things that really matter. Kinda seems like the Dem party in a way. Continue supporting a near-worthless machine, or scrap it all and start from scratch.
Amnesty International has definitely caved on lots of big cases where their leadership - or at least minimal amount of support - was really needed by people whose lives were on the line.
All this talk of losing kitties is depressing- we just lost one of ours two weeks ago. He died suddenly. He was 18 and late on Friday night he suddenly became very sluggish, and also refused his evening snack of roast beef. We knew then that he was ill and decided we'd take him to the vet first thing in the morning- he never made it through the night. I fell asleep on the couch and a whimpering cry woke me up at at 2 am. I found him dead, with our other kitty sitting by his side.
Robert M Jeffers - I believe it. Spring before last, we had to have one of the dearest best cats I've ever had euthanized. My husband took him and he told me that Bob reacted the same way. Like he knew and was at peace with it. It was amazing.
We used to have 4 cats - that is too many. We're down to just the one, but he is a handful. He is the smartest, most curious animal I've ever encountered. If he was a human boy, he would be taking watches apart to see what makes them run. He amazes me. I watch him sit and study things from all angles to try to figure out how they work. I'm not exaggerating. He's something.
no imagination - that's so sad. I'm so sorry. It is hard to lose a beloved animal. They are part of the family and it really hurts.
My sympathies.
no imagination -
I'm so sorry! That must have been a terrible shock. Heartfelt condolences. I know it's so terribly hard to lose a precious kitty.
*
OT
By William Schomberg
MILAN (Reuters) - An Italian prosecutor asked a court on Friday to sentence Silvio Berlusconi to eight years in jail for bribing judges as the prime minister's four-year corruption trial reached its closing stages.
In the latest in a series of legal cases involving Berlusconi, Milan magistrates have accused him of bribing judges to stop the sale of state-owned food chain SME to a rival businessman in the 1980s, before he entered politics.
Well, that would take care of one of Bush's strongest (and few) supporters in Europe. We can then hope that Blair also loses power....
O, Tena.
Glad I was able to help you avoid MyDoom. For those of you who missed it, you get an email telling you $150 (or $175, I forget) was charged to your Paypal account, Click here to see details of transaction. You click and there's the bug. I hate viruses; they're like Republicans, mean becasue they can be.
There's another one I've gotten a few times now, a person in Florida writing "to be friends". Comes with a lurid yellow background and another link to click. I'm sure it's the same thing or similar.
Eumache!
We still sing that song in my family!
And all this time, I thought we were just insane.
Thanks for the condolences. Because of his age, I knew he'd eventually pass on, but I was just absolutely taken aback at how sudden it was.
NYMary -
I got the "friends" email too. It was sent to my Atrios email, the one that I post here. I have a feeling that particular one is targeted at the Eschaton community...
*
no imagination,
you're among friends. we feel your pain. my condolences.
And all this time, I thought we were just insane.
watertiger,
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but...
welcome to the club.
Chinese muslims? can they eat pork fried rice?
no imagination., sorry about your loss...
so your cat's recommendation for getting to an old age was an evening snack of roast beef? i am glad my kitty - who is next to me - is sleeping and didn't read that!
watertiger, thanks. He was a special cat. At one time he belonged to my mother-in-law, (another recent loss), and about 4 years ago we had to take him in. He was an absolutely spoiled brat, shed human blood with impunity, and hid whenever company came over. Amazingly, after introducing him to our pack, (our 2 dogs & kitty), he came around in short order- the most loving lapcat who followed my husband around as if he was his idol, and loved to mingle with the people at our parties, always getting into the midst of things- even unafraid of guest dogs. Truly amazing. I miss him.
NY Mary,
D'oh!
You should check out the insanity going on in the thread above. You'd be right in your pop element...no references to Paper Lace yet, though.
smarty, we gave him roast beef as a supplement to keep his weight up. Our other cat was always stealing his food, and he was on a special diet- beef was one of the few treats he could safely eat.
hey, what's up with haloscan not remembering my handle?
Remember: everything they say is for the base NOT you. Their base needs to be reassured that "we would never do these things" unless its just a few bad apples. they cant risk the cognitive dissonance in the base.
George will cave. China scares him shitless.
watertiger
Come to think of it, "Love to eat them mousies" is more appropriate to this thread than I'd realized. Torturing prisoners/torturing mice = sadism...
Sigh
Someone ask our new AG what he thinks about that. I'm sure he'll find it quaint or something.
Thersites,
If you are still around could you do a write-up of the demise of Shame, and maybe another about the fourth estate?
The Irony bit was brilliant.
LMAO
Wow, from Gitmo to the Laogai. I guess Chinese torture is worse than American torture.
you think that's strange, there are chinese who claim to be a lost tribe of israel.
can't decide which side freepers would side on.
Last I heard the American people are PRO-torture and will install an AG who writes memos on the legality of torture.
Listen, we've fallen down the moral hole, there's no coming back anymore.
"Irony became impossible after henry Kissinger was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize."--Kurt Vonnegut, i think, said something of the sort...In such case, irony's been dead lo, these thirty years. Which probably explains the ascent during that period of the 'post-modern'...
Btw: here's the chemical notation for irony: Fe-y
Eumache - Oh holy shit, I love that Kliban song. One of my all time faves. I sing it to my cat frequently.
steve_gilliard, you couldn't be more right. Nobody staff member in a Chinese prison risks jail time for killing a prisoner, much less for far lessor treatment.
Can you say Catch-22...geeze...
Tena
Know the Kliban cat cartoon book? Hard to know whether my fave is cat-as-meatloaf or cat-sedans gliding mysteriously thru the dark...
Damn inspired, that book.
One of my main objections to conventional Western (i.e., Judeo-Christian) metaphysics is the notion of the soul as an exclusively human attribute. "Soul" sets us apart from the rest of nature, makes us somehow an improvement on it.
Bullshit.
My lately deceased (aged at least 17)Poly-dog had more soul in her little frame than the entire GOPuke 'party of god' on its best day so far...
"Yuo are on notice that Real America does not want you anymore. Get out hater and move somewhere where you will not have to work hard for a living anymore, like Canada. We in the heartland love our president and his agenda, we vote too and their are more of us. Just shut up or get out and get used to it."
I just love it when a little wanker like this tries to act like a badass.
If anyone is a hater, it's people like this.
Work hard? The red states live off the welfare that we in the Blue States pay for!
I'd like to see this little shit TRY to put ME out the country.
Bring it on, wingnut!
"The red states live off the welfare that we in the Blue States pay for!"
I've always wondered how that figure is determined. Does it include spending at military posts that are mostly in the south? Defense spending on equipment which is produced largely in red states? Retirees, both gov't and social security types, which also goes largely to red states where people often retire?
I haven't the slightest...
Tick tock
China meets Uncle Sam on the street.
C "Hand over those bad men"
US "No can do you dirty bastard"
C " You owe me lots of money and I can turn your economy into chaos over night"
US "Oh yeah!"
C "Yeah"
US "OK, just dont do what we did to them"
C" PS, we are taking Tiawan too. Suckers"
US "Oh"
weapons of mass debt
Chinese people do many things. Chinese people do business, do medicine, do painting. Not lazy like American people. We do torture. Best torture.
Mikie:
Yes.
It sure doesn't COME from there.....
I know I am coming in late, but has anyone noticed the very odd pattern with the Rethugs and China?
The religious reich spends so much time demonizing China for what is really mere patronization of their populace -- cracking down on xtians with the goal of preventing the spread of wingnuttery in what would be their red-states if they had an electoral college -- even if they do treat drinking certain brands of kool-aid as a capital offense, which is evil, in spite of our bad wishes regarding what we would do to certain parts of this country -- while the Rethugs they support continually ignore the geopolitical reality of how China's border disputes really destabilize the world (e.g. China and India are at odds, so India develops the bomb as China has one ... ergo Pakistan, with Chinese support, develops the bomb as well and spreads the technology to terrorists).
Indeed, sometimes I wonder if the Religious Reich anti-Chinese complaints are some sort of distraction to frame being worried about the Chinese as some sort of wingnuttery as the Religious Reich so misses the real threats China presents.
But why am I not surprised -- after all, besides China's border disputes, which have largely been ignored by so many in this country especially the Religious Reich which one would expect to be at the forfront of anti-Chinese criticism, our other major threat was a creation of St. Ronnie (namely Al-Qaeda). Indeed, the common thread is Pakistan, which is all but begging to be in the axis of evil even as we consider it to be an ally!
The Rethug foreign policy is so whack, I am amazed that anyone thinks they are strong on national defense. When will the hoi polloi learn that just because the SCLM says something, doesn't make it true or liberal? When will they see past the working of the refs and see the bias for what it is and think for themselves?
Who's this "we" you keep talking about? I never did think they were a threat. And the only people who had any say with what was done to them were a bunch of thugs in Washington and Gitmo--none of whom represent me in any way.
OT, but what isn't in this thread. About those virii(?). Don't just delete them. When you think you have a virus mail do the following. I'll use Outlook as the example. Highlight the message and right click and select options. This will bring up a window with a box in the bottom showing the header info. It will look like this (actual virus header)....
Return-Path:
Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net ([204.127.202.55]) by mailin00.sul.t-online.de
with esmtp id 1CDNPm-11fe760; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 15:25:38 +0200
Received: from t-online.de (pcp04580763pcs.ebltst01.md.comcast.net[68.33.167.
152])
by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP
id ; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 13:25:31 +0000
From: "Mail Administrator"
To: scott.cornwell@t-online.de
Subject: Delivery reports about your e-mail
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 09:24:57 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
boundary="----
=_NextPart_000_0005_147F6723.DB9CFC58"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
X-TOI-SPAM: u;0;2004-10-01T13:25:43Z
X-TOI-MSGID: 916969a8-7219-4468-bb44-7bcc70978100
X-Seen: false
The important part is the bottom most receieved from, in this case
(pcp04580763pcs.ebltst01.md.comcast.net[68.33.167.
152])
this is the true sender. It may be an infected computer but no matter, it is where it came from and the sender should be made aware. Now what you do is send this header info to abuse@whatever is after the @. In this case abuse@comcast.net. Complain about being sent virii. You should get an automated reply. If you still get virii from the same address, lookup the admin for the net (comcast) using a whois (google whois) search and send a mail to the admin promising to forward all future virii from their net to them multiple times untill it stops. Seems to take care of the problem.
Do the words "extraordinary rendition" mean anything to the Reichists around here?
How about "Maher Arar"?
Is cat talk over already?
I had a piano coach whose cat had stillborn kitties so he preserved them in the freezer for when his 10 year old daughter came.
She was quite a hit with her friends. Strange toys.
True Conservative:
I guess what I've heard is true. Conservatives have more interesting sex lives (because they think it's dirty). Can I join?
Mikie - actually Chinese police do get punished for beating and torturing prisoners. (if you want examples I'll be happy to provide them.) There are laws on the books in China against this sort of thing.
Of course, as in the US, when a group that is responsible for enforcing laws is the same group that is responsible for breaking the laws, you produce a conflict of interest and selective enforcement at best.
"Everything they say is for their base"
Didn't you get that idea when Lynn Cheney said about Kerry, he is a bad man, he is not a good man?
I mean who really talks that way. (Even my 2 year old grandson would expect better.) She was talking to the base, the black/white-good/evil thinking people.
I've been to China, and seen an officer beat a woman in the street, with people just looking on.
Let me guess, was her name Rod Ni Qing?
We were the Uighurs' champions for the many years of their repression by the Chinese. But after 9/11, when we needed China's help, we acceded to the designation of them as terrorists.
This has bred great resentment of us among Chinese muslims.
Hi,
I currently am taking care of Eight cats. Their names are {from oldest to youngest} :
Tinkerbell {Long haired calico female}
Blinky {Black short haired female}
Todo {Brown/Black short haired male}
Patches {Short haired calico female}
Pepper {Short haired black/brown female}
CarrotHead {Orange/White short male}
Morticia {Short haired calico female}
Spices {Short haired calico female}
My oldest cat lived to be 18 years old, his name was Bud and he was a longhaired black/white. I had one cat die at only six. My oldest cat is now 10 years old...
I have some pictures of my cats {from 1998} on my website. I am in the process of updating the cat page...
L8r,
Michael
Characters Remaining:
Commenting by HaloScan
