I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
pherst.
wow
So, who has access to Lexis-Nexis (or however ya spell it) - and wants to help put the screws to some dirtbag rethug slumlords?
Bob Garfield is killing me this morning on On The Media. Likening the Ashcroft reign to the "Sound of Music."
had my coffee and want to know this: living in euroland, how do I resume communications with red state relatives whose politics I can't stand. anyone else dealing with this?
Barndog,
I do, but not until Monday. Wha'cha need?
how do I resume communications with red state relatives whose politics I can't stand.
I find telegrams send just the right tone.
Take a look at http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/ this AM on the attack on Fallujah
People in Falloojeh are being murdered. The stories coming back are horrifying. People being shot in cold blood in the streets and being buried under tons of concrete and iron... where is the world? Bury Arafat and hurry up and pay attention to what's happening in Iraq.
They say the people have nothing to eat. No produce is going into the city and the water has been cut off for days and days. Do you know what it's like to have no clean water??? People are drinking contaminated water and coming down with diarrhoea and other diseases. There are corpses in the street because no one can risk leaving their home to bury people. Families are burying children and parents in the gardens of their homes. WHERE IS EVERYONE???
Furthermore, where is Sistani? Why isn't he saying anything about the situation? When the South was being attacked, Sunni clerics everywhere decried the attacks. Where is Sistani now, when people are looking to him for some reaction? The silence is deafening.
Meanwhile the theme that the Iraqi Sunni have been isolated also reaches into the north where the theme is that the Kurds are supporting the attack on Fallujah. We only have a few weeks until the elecitons that are supposed to unify the county. It is not looking good.
Oh.... helped a buddy the other day on this one particular shithole. He tells me these people have a load of these around the area as 'property investments'. From the info he relayed to me, these assholes are as dirty as they come.
I'm all in for the ratfucking. I also have the contacts via the city inspectors too (been a carpenter most of my life) and a good reputation, before my health took a nosedive.
The way I see it - these are the people taking my country down. Time for payback.
Comprende?
Good morning everyone, cold and damp in Philly today. Looks like the sun is coming though.
Barndog,
Email me on Monday with the deets. I'll see what I can dig up. It's amazing what's available on Nexis.
Bob Garfield is killing me this morning on On The Media. Likening the Ashcroft reign to the "Sound of Music."
watertiger
Nazis? Sounds right to me....
ashcroft on cspan 2 this morn- bizzaro world is here. He's quoting foundiers (Jefferson, Hamilton) out of context, mixed with the thoughful phrase UHHHHHHHHHHH more times than necessary.
NYMary,
It should be archived later on www.onthemedia.org. Piece starts off with Ashcroft's "Soar" solo (why do I always want to call it "Fly Like an Eagle"?) and uses songs from the musical as punctuation throughout. I don't want to spoil it for those who want to listen.
Ayup. Need to lock onto some more solid info before I get into this. I want to be sure this is a 95% + certainty before hand. Might take me a few days but thats alright in any event.
Tanks.
He's quoting foundiers (Jefferson, Hamilton) out of context
"I believe it was Jefferson who said, 'Jungle love, it's drivin' me mad, makin' me crazy..."
founders even...
WT is this the start of the ashcroft/founding fathers version of the Grogan/Bible thread?
Did not Hamiltons say
"If I get me hands on that Adam Smythe, I'll show him an invisible hand he will be unlikely to forget {waving fist}"
From WP:
"The deputy director of the CIA resigned yesterday after a series of confrontations over the past week between senior operations officials and CIA Director Porter J. Goss's new chief of staff that have left the agency in turmoil, according to several current and former CIA officials.
John E. McLaughlin, a 32-year CIA veteran who was acting director for two months this summer until Goss took over, resigned after warning Goss that his top aide, former Capitol Hill staff member Patrick Murray, was treating senior officials disrespectfully and risked widespread resignations, the officials said. "
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp...-
2004Nov12.html
Kent,
Sorry. Had residual Steve Miller Syndrome from several posts up. 
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
the United States of America,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
the bombing of civilians,
and life everlasting.
Amen.
So now there is turmoil in the CIA and everybody want ot resign. Whats next?
WT no need, this is an open thread after all, and that Grogan one from yesterday was simply highlarious.
Humor helps coping with the Horror's don't you know. 
So now there is turmoil in the CIA and everybody want ot resign. Whats next?
Oooh oooh! I know this one!
MASSIVE information leaks?
Ayup - these guys are going down. How faithful will the house members be and for how long. After all they will be running for reelection in two years. Just about the time shrub figures he becomes a lame duck. Anyone know who is up in the Senate in two years. I want to start getting to work on it. Not that I know what I'm gonna do but more letter writing. But we can't just sit still while they steal the country.
Ashcroft must be trying to get into the CIA now. or he's going to tour NRA shows for speaking fees...
The CIA needs to start taking care of things. The same rogue outfit that ran iran Contra and was big with arbusto's bay of pig days is running amok and needs to be stopped they do not follow laws.
Please God let the spooks unleash some things that no amount of lies will change.
1. A man - has traffic diminished? It does not appear to have, which is good for our side. We are not going down.
2. Kent - do you every sleep?
Someone on an earlier thread (which I read but didn't comment on as it was already so long) was worried about their kids having to go to Iraq.
No one's kids will have to go to Iraq as a result of the draft if - if - the half of America who voted against this lunatic and his lunacy simply refuse to go.
Imagine how much more expensive Georgie's Excellent Iraqi Adventure will become if he finds he can't draft anyone because they declare conscientious objector status. The punishment for refusal to go is jail time - which means anyone who refuses to go will receive room and board courtesy of the US goverment, running up Georgie's war tab while at the same time doing nothing to lessen the crisis of not having enough troops on the ground over there.
As I've been saying, passive resistance. They can't force anyone to go - even if they signed up for the forces, and indeed we're hearing more reports all the time of exactly that occuring.
Let the red states sacrifice their sons to their God of War. The smart people's kids should simply refuse to go.
Oh, and as for the inauguration? Never mind the eggs. I think a massive Seig Heil salute as the limo passes from those lining the parade route would be a great form of protest, since it gets the point across and the Secret Service can't arrest anyone for simply saluting the Fuhrer.
When i was growing up, too many years ago, it was illegal to salute the Fuhrer.
jennifer,
i don't think we'll get within saluting distance of Dear Leader this inauguration. 9/11 changed everything you know.
hahaha jenny- great idea! But the view from outside on a Adolph Bushler's next term would be kind of bad to imagine if such happened.
Lossa happy Von Ribbentrops singing and saluting Das Bushler...
General strike on inauguration day--no work, no purchases, no TV.
A massive one-finger salute.
last spook to leave CIA turn the lights off,neocons thrive in darkness...
UL- Underwriters Laboratory says that the wtc builings "melted beams" caused collapse official story is BS.
See 9/11truth.org
on NOW with Bill Moyers last night, he had this awesome catholic nun.
She said that the right-wingers are truly immoral when they back wars that kill civilians (pregnant women included!)
She said that true spiritualism comes from within and should not be pushed onto your neighbor
She said that wingers are only pro-birth, not pro-life - she asked what's the plan for the unwanted children once born and grown?
also said that the fact that they can be so-called pro-life and pro-war is a ridiculous dichotomy and they need to be called on it!
bottom line she said - the regligious fundamental right has blasphemed the concept of religion as CREATED by the catholic church!
anyone looking for morning reading, here's a good article from Slate, via Josh, on the rise of Mullah Dobson.
Mr. Murder - I respectfully disagree. Those on the outside already see him for what he is, so it would come as no surprise.
In fact, it might in some ways help us get across a message to them that we need to communicate - which is that the rest of the world needs to be prepared to stage an asshole intervention when he starts floating plans for the next war. Even though insanity is a prerequisite for serving in this administration, even these crazies might think twice about attacking Iran if they had advance notice that the Chinese and Russians would counter-attack if he does so. (And this would be the inevitable result anyway, since there's no way the booming oil-hungry Asian economies are going to allow Georgie to further corner the world oil supply.) And I think we know which side the Europeans will throw in on.
World War III, anyone?
I hope to catch the NOW rebraodcast... what I did view of it was outstanding. Bill Moyers is today's Ed Murrow.
so how soon do they cut NOW to a half hour? and, how soon until they kill it entirely under rethug pressure?
hmmmm jenny they will wage war peacefully- boycotts will take care of this.
It will also show the importance of coordinated communtiy action and bring a resurgence to labor rights.
Bush has so many Americans hating him that he's trying to import new ones and do thinghs to have them like him instead...
NOW will not die- too many people dig it.
Someone put glasses on Tavist Smiley- call him 'fat Urkel'.
And Tucker Carlson is a gimmick robbing slap to Paul Simon's legacy.If it wasn't for his connections from daddy he'd be another punk in line at the mall with an ATM complaint or a hot check list...
And Juan Williams should put in a resume for AG since Juan Ashcroft regined, both of them are all about the crico...
When Paul O'Neil was on NOW it so totally rocked.
This is not the end, election 2004 was the beginning, America was too big to come apart under full blown Civil War. The best qualities of Humans will win the day.
Oh, and as for the inauguration? Never mind the eggs. I think a massive Seig Heil salute as the limo passes from those lining the parade route would be a great form of protest, since it gets the point across and the Secret Service can't arrest anyone for simply saluting the Fuhrer.
http://www.turnyourbackonbush.org/
Some of you may remember a wonderful album made by David Byrne and Brian Eno back in 1981, called "My Life in the Bush of Ghosts" (the title of a novel by Amos Tutuola). Lots of cool beats, 'world music' themes, and snippets of 'found recordings.' A very cool album and I had been thinking about it recently so I went on Amazon to see what it was going for used. Looking at the track listing on Amazon, something seemed not quite as I remembered. Then I glanced over some of the reviews and realised what was different. A track called "Qu'ran" that featured inserts of Algerian Muslims chanting verses from the Koran has been dropped from the CD.
Speaking of the CIA, that smarmy Brooks wussy has a column in the NYT today that says that the Bush Boys enemies are in the CIA. The little wuss throws down with this statement:
If we lived in a primitive age, the ground at Langley would be laid waste and salted, and there would be heads on spikes
Now that's some tough talk. This from an individual that has likely never been closer to violence than this TV set.
Also, I do not think the boy gets it. In the past, the CIA has brought down
better men than the Bush Boy.
Mr. Murder - Only if we make them (that is, the Bushler supporters) feel the pain of their poor choices.
This is why I've been continuing to advocate for Democratic INaction on most congressional votes. Make the thugs OWN their failures. We can't stop anything from passing anyway; the first time we use the filibuster the thugs will change the Senate rules to do away with it. Save it for when it matters, on SC nominations. In the meantime, refuse to vote on anything (which registers as a "no" vote anyway) and continue repeating as many times as it takes for the Bushler voters to get it that "the thugs refuse to acknowledge that we represent half of America and our votes don't count anyway, so we're abstaining from voting on most of their agenda so it will be clear who passed it. Sorry all you Bush voters no longer have Social Security, but you voted to do away with it. (Or "sorry all you Bush voters' kids are getting drafted, but you voted for it" etc.)" It will take away Rush's fodder for daily outrage and campaign fodder for the thugs when they run again.
just read that WP piece and am happy we waited to break the CIA until AFTER Ashcroft succeeded in ending terrorism. just think if it had happened before! what a disaster.
it is kind of a silly story. grown men resigning over getting in each other's "space". sheesh. i thought my office was childish. i have never met so many crazy and immature people until i entered government.
Anon@8:34
I used to teach at a Catholic high school, the one I myself attended (don't ask), and I'll tel you this: the nuns that are still in the orders are either (a) batshit crazy (and sometimes they kick them out... the craziest person there was a laicized ex-nun), or (b) really cool. Catholics, officially at least, are supposed to be pro-life generally. Anti-war, anti-death penalty, anti-poverty. Moyers' nun was not such an anomaly as one might think--and a good sign, a sign that they don't own religion.
Along the concept line of 'unwanted children' - there are families who home school, so far right their house tilts, and they have adopted severely handicapped children - along with their natural born children.
They 'recieve' a stipend from the government for each child of around $1200.00/month (or so dependent on need) to cover food and housing. The medical care these severely handicapped children need is beyond comprehension. That is paid also, as is the expense of travel to medical appointments and lodging.
In the meantime, they have moved so far right of the wingers - most churches won't allow them access. So, they join churches which are completely out of mainstream religion that enjoy what most would consider a 'cult' following.
Under the pretense of 'providing care and love' for these needy, handicapped children, these families are making a good living by providing a home and care for them.
I know first hand. It's happening in our (my wife's) family.
The hypocrisy is stunning.
Jennifer, you're completely right about the filibuster. they already whipped out their "democrats are obstructing judicial nominee" talking points yesterday, before we even put the Gonzalez nomination into question. They are so trying to pick that fight as an excuse to do away with the filibuster rules. I say don't give them the pleasure.
I believe Bill Moyers is retiring at the end of the year, but I like David
Brancaccio, hope he continues. That was a great NOW show - as they all are - but unfortunately he's preaching to the choir.
Moominpapa- It must be the record labels doing. I can't imagine Byrne or especially Eno endorsing that change.
On Bush's second term:
He reminds me of an unplesant ex-father-in-law of mine, who, having completely screwed up him relationship with nearly all of his own children, tried to be extra nice to the grandchildren to make up for it. Doesn't work that way, guys. Sorry.
Barndog,
there was a story last year in NJ about a family that took in 5 or 6 orphans and got a healthy monthly stipend, then failed to actually FEED them. the whole thing unraveled when a skeletal kid was discovered digging in a neighbor's garbage for food.
meanwhile, Rick Santorum's kids go to a fancy charter school at a $38,000 a year expense to taxpayers in a district where he doesn't actually live.
Has this made the rounds here yet? If not, say hello to my bellicose friend.
unpleasant.... sorry. I can spell, I just can't type.
QuiltLady in NY,
Some, yes I do. not as much lately, as I am accustomed.
If we lived in a primitive age, the ground at Langley would be laid waste and salted, and there would be heads on spikes
ah, zell and david with their heads on spikes. i'd arange it so they looked as if they were kissing.
is david brooks gay? 'cause he looks, and sounds gay. not that there is anything wrong with that. unless he's not gay, in which case he must be a poseur.
Mr. Murder - who's tucker carlson's daddy?
pro-birth, not pro-life
I cant belive I am saying this, b/c I am not a conspiracy theorist at all, but I am curious why the exit polls in the non-swing states were accurate withinthe margin of error, and the battlground states-they were all off. I am also wondering how the repubs would have reacted if the results were reversed: Kerry won, but exit polls showed otherwise. Finally, I am wondering if the press would have hounded Gore if there was a bulge in his back.
dirtgirl - Bob "Novakula" Novack's his daddy.
you're joking, right?
From Father Greeley's column of yesterday, OK, lets say there's only 50,000 extra dead. So that's not so bad, right? Americans are never going to have to render an accounting to their Creator for having supported such a massacre. Right?
I don't judge the conscience of anyone, leader or follower. I am merely saying that there is objective sin in the Iraq war, and our country as a country is guilty of sin. I'll leave it to God to judge the guilt, because that's God's job. I also leave it to God to judge whether there ought to be punishment for that sin. However, I think Americans -- so serenely confident that the Lord is on our side -- should live in fear and trembling about punishment.
http://www.suntimes.com/index/gr...ex/
greeley.html
Silly Michigander, we got a reprieve.... didn't you hear?
And I like the idea of "objective sin"--nice combo of faith and reality. Though some here might prefer "objective wrong," and I can deal with that, too.
I agree with Jennifer re: passive resistance. Too bad the Dems will never go along with it. Too self-preservationist. They want the popular kids (Republican Reps & Senators) to like them. Never mind what the other HALF of us want out here in the U.S.
Hamburger: I feel your pain. My husband & I are going to NY to see his folks for Thanksgiving. They're big time right-wingers. Drank all the Kool-Aid to the last drop. It will be very hard. They are not "in your face" people as in "Ha, ha, you LOST" but they will pepper their conversation with lots of "Thank God Bush won" references. Which will all be directed at me because I am the evil liberal interloper. And I'm sure they think I ruined my husband into being a liberal too. Ha.
I think I will just extract myself as often as politely possible, to see if the kids "need something," or to take a walk, or to go to the bathroom for a really, really long time.
Sigh.
Love Brooksie's column in NYT today -- is that guy completely nuts?
...Langley was engaged in slow-motion, brazen insubordination, which violated all standards of honorable public service.
Now Bush needs to crack some heads to show them who they REALLY report to?
Ohhhhh...myyyyyyy...
'Take a look at http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/ this AM on the attack on Fallujah'
It's interesting to me that riverbend never links to non-Anglophone news sources and her 'reports from Iraq' lean so heavily on non-local news sources. Has anyone ever seen or met this person in real life? Has she ever even posted in arabic? What evidence do we have that she isn't a fake?
hey, who is still numb from nov. third?
well for me it's starting to wear off, and now i'm pissed.
i sincerely hope there are going to be some organized protests.
this is just fucking insane, we have a verifiable war criminal for a president and life just goes on, la, ti, ta, ti, toe. it's fuck'n insanity.
tinfoil hattie -
Just nicely explain that when they are eating cat food, and have no medication to not call you for assistance.
You voted for sanity, right?
BlakNo1 - I assumed so, too. It shouldn't shock me (Zeus knows, nothing about corporations - especially record companies - should shock me anymore) and yet it does. These insidious little acts of cowardice and censorship eat away at the foundations of an open society just as surely as the Chimp's large-scale blunders do.
Fucking liar, pants on fire!!!
The entire inauguration route should be lined with folks carrying standards bearing burning trousers.
Bob Garfield is killing me this morning on On The Media. Likening the Ashcroft reign to the "Sound of Music."
watertiger
Understandable, given the character of Rolf and the fascism subplot.
the NYC mayoral race appears to be in full swing. (from today's NY Times, here and here) this should be fun. and just in time, I was going into campaign withdrawal.
Live Free or Die,
conspiracy? not at all, everything you suggest would have happened, They would be screaming fraud from the roof and would have spent hours digging into what the hell was on Gore's back.
Welcom to media balance, my friend.
Hey NYMary,
This will take your mind of Dubya. Did you hear that they are reissuing The Records great second release "Crashes"?
http://www.therecords.com/
Great history of the band their too.
but, kent..... that would be, well, wrong!
So I have a VERY serious question. It'll take the combined efforts of thebeautiful minds here to get the answer, so I want you to know that I do not take it lightly. I also appreciate your time in considering it. Here is my question:
All things aside, do you think that Laura Bush ever looks at her husband lovingly in his beedy little eyes and says, "So tell me George, do you ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?"?
tinfoil - what Barndog said, though to state it more succinctly:
When they're eating their cat food, just say, sarcastically, "Thank God Bush won." That's my plan for any and all I hear complaining about any aspect of policy or impact in the next four years.
"Oh, your son got drafted to serve in Iraq? That's too bad. Did you vote? Yeah? Who'd you vote for? Oh, gee, you must feel awful, knowing that you voted to put your son in danger. But hey, look on the bright side! Even if your kid ends up dead or maimed, at least we don't have a 'French-looking' guy for president! Good thing you know what's important and they weren't able to slip that one past you!
Oh, and...good luck to your son. Maybe if he makes it back alive he'll forgive you for putting your own fear, greed and ignorance ahead of his life and safety. Have a nice day!"
MaxVol!
No way! That is so cool! (and fodder for my sad little blog) Teenarama is one of the worst, greatest pop songs of all time.
Barndog,
I like it! I'll smile mysteriously to myself all weekend every time I think of your comment.
I voted for sanity, & got...whatever you want to call this mess.
I think Georgie does want a "do-over," but not in the sense of wanting to fulfill his promises this time. I think he feels like his "turn" was ruined by those nasty ol' terrorists and THIS TIME he's going to have FUN, and go golfing, and swagger, and spew about the Lord, and stop pretending he remotely cares about anyone with less than millions in the bank. Bonus: He already has a nice war going, so he doesn't have to go to the trouble of starting it up this time.
Rich, spoiled, self-centered kid who is furious that his good time was ruined now feels he's back in the seat of entitlement, where he belongs.
Not that I am bitter, as Dave Barry says.
Live Free or Die,
conspiracy? not at all, everything you suggest would have happened, They would be screaming fraud from the roof and would have spent hours digging into what the hell was on Gore's back.
Welcom to media balance, my friend.
When they're eating their cat food, just say, sarcastically, "Thank God Bush won." That's my plan for any and all I hear complaining about any aspect of policy or impact in the next four years.
Grow up already.
hholli1,
No, but only because she already knows the answer.
Jennifer:
Oh, your son got drafted to serve in Iraq? That's too bad. Did you vote? Yeah? Who'd you vote for? Oh, gee, you must feel awful, knowing that you voted to put your son in danger. But hey, look on the bright side! Even if your kid ends up dead or maimed, at least we don't have a 'French-looking' guy for president! Good thing you know what's important and they weren't able to slip that one past you!
Oh, and...good luck to your son. Maybe if he makes it back alive he'll forgive you for putting your own fear, greed and ignorance ahead of his life and safety. Have a nice day!"
I'd like to put that on a greeting card. You could work for Hallmark darlin...
sorry my fault.
NYMary,
Pardon this dullard, but I am unable to fathom your drift.
That came from an Alterman piece I believe, tinfoil.
And, it's right on the spot if ya ask me.
Fuck 'em all.
I think I will just extract myself as often as politely possible, to see if the kids "need something," or to take a walk, or to go to the bathroom for a really, really long time.
Sigh.
tinfoil hattie
Here is what I do, I announce at dinner that I have to go to the bathroom and it will be a "really long time." Then I load my plate up with food and go have dinner on the commode. Just so no one thinks anything is up, I groan and make sounds like I am severely constipated. I also make many loud fart-like sounds. The family is grateful that I am not at the table and I can "enjoy" my meal in peace. Sure, I was embarrassed the first time I tried it (after nixon's landslide over McGovern), but it has become an annual ritual now -- they even put out a roll of extra toilet paper now.
What evidence do we have that she isn't a fake?
Networks of trust. We know that Salam Pax is legit, and that his friends Raed and G are legit -- and it's weird how that small blogging community now works for the Guardian and WaPo and other big media, but I suspect that's not a cause-and-effect so much as a media-savvy Iraqi has lots of skills.
But that group vouches for Riverbend. If that's worth anything to you.
Grow up already.
Anonymous
yo trool! better make sure your Wal-Mart card's current, cuz they have great deals on cat food you can feed your parents when their social security is killed off by your boss...
Which is to say, ESAD, fuckwitz
A devastating article on the war by an imbedded reporter in The WashingtonPost Sunday magazine...
You can read it here.(have to register).
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp...1-
2004Nov9.html
I don't divide, I fucking unite,
Just as long as the Dems are upright.
Their evil ways must go.
They must shout, "Bravo!"
When I deign to appear in their sight.
Anyone know who is up in the Senate in two years.
QuiltLady,
I've got my eye on two. Hillary's up and she's already looking for volunteers to do phonebanking, etc. Email me if you're interested and I'll send you the details. Also, Senator Allen from VA -- a real jerk who has national aspirations. Our Democratic governor, Mark Warner, is likely to challenge him, which will mean a double-barrelled campaign here in VA: Getting Warner elected to the Senate and making sure his replacement as governor is also a Democrat.
Jennifer -- brilliant sarcasm.
Anon -- screw you; they can live with what they voted for.
Tena -- OMIGOD I am DYING over here. The bathroom at their house IS really near the dining room...if I leave that little hallway door open...
'Time for payback.'
The idea had been growing in my brain for some time: TRUE force. All the king's men cannot put it back together again.
If ya got a Spencer's gifts nearby -
Get yerself some 'Farts in a Can'. Smells like them and really sounds like it too.
They'd really appreciate it. You'll be laughin' for weeks.
anyone looking for morning reading, here's a good article from Slate, via Josh, on the rise of Mullah Dobson.
I prefer "Radical cleric Dobson" -- I think Mullah is simply a term of respect in Isalm.
Nothing wrong with the world that some good ol' fart humor can't ease.
Looks like Rod Paige is being shoved out the door at the Education Dept.
His proposed replacement...who by the way has no degree in education...is a Bush political appointee, his advisor to domestic policy, who also headed up his education work in Texas.
According to the Post, Paige is being pressured to leave by the White House floating a rumor out there that he is resigning.
Convenient how they announced his plans for him, isn't it?
Um, tinfoil hattie, that was the asshole troll, not Tena.
IF you can eat pickled eggs - theres some really good ammo too.
My wife forbids me to eat them anymore. I won't elaborate.
Anyone know who is up in the Senate in two years.
Rick Santorum and Bill Frist.
OMG Tena,
wow, You have to love a plan that continues to work 22 years later.
No one could ever bring themselves to believe that you were not in earnest.
pardon me while I LOL
Grand Inqisitor Dobson is the most recent update.
MYOB'
.
TFH,
I think we have been had by a namestealing Tena.
'But that group vouches for Riverbend. If that's worth anything to you.'
'networks of trust' is something of a soft standard to apply to journalism.
to my knowledge none of that group (who are undoubtedly real) have met riverbend in person. By way of contrast, both Salam Pax and Omar from Iraq the Model have been interviewed in person by multiple news agencies. They also each reference and link abundantly to Arab media. Riverbend reads as if she could be blogging from just about anywhere, and seems especially partial to UK news agencies.
Is there a viable and reliable humanitarian group for Iraq, now that Doctors Without Borders and others have pulled out? How can we help (and assure them there are at least 51 million of us who want to try)
The more I think about it, the more I think we need a greeting card similar to that which Steve-in-San-Francisco sent to Adam Nagourney several weeks ago, to send to all our right-wing acquantances with children of draft age, to wit:
Dear Parent of Our War's Newest Hero:
While voting for Bush,
How brightly you smiled.
You now heve your wish:
I sure hope your child
Whom your love has provided
With health, home and heart
Won't come back divided
In separate parts...
Sincerely yours...
Um, tinfoil hattie, that was the asshole troll, not Tena.
Anonymous
YOU, like all the anons, are the asshole trolls.
Paige's 'degree in education' was devoted to training offensive linemen to respond more quickly to the 'hike' command...
Which is to say, it don't mean a thing...
living in euroland, how do I resume communications with red state relatives whose politics I can't stand.
Why resume communications?
NYMary,
Know what you mean about Teenarama..but "Starry Eyes" IS the greatest power pop tune ever!
The Records where the band that turned me on to powerpop.
Your blog is cool. I was too lazy to register and post on it, but I will soon.
The mix-tape piece was great.
'YOU, like all the anons, are the asshole trolls.'
Does that include the eschaton-symp anons?
meanwhile, Rick Santorum's kids go to a fancy charter school at a $38,000 a year expense to taxpayers in a district where he doesn't actually live.
The hypocisy astounds.
Yep, Brooks NYT column was hilarious today in that hypocritical, nonsensical way he has of shilling for Bush. Brooks is shrilling-away about punishing the CIA guys for having the nerve to leak to America the actual facts and for placing their allegiance to America rather than to a renegade radical president. All one really needs to about know about Brooks comes from his premise that the CIA is "on the president's payroll". Oh really?
Make that "hypocrisy". Doh!
That kangaroo court was a mockery of a travesty of a sham of a miscarriage of justice. Sod'um will get a fairer trial than what that poor, 100% Not Guilty Fertilizer Salesdude got. Hope Nancy Grace dates or marries an OJ, Robert Blake or Phil Spector.
art's an old fart.
Whatever, just get me out of your starry eyes and be on your way...
'How can we help (and assure them there are at least 51 million of us who want to try)'
I think one great way to help would be to stop hailing the people who do shit like this as 'freedom fighters.'
Tena, 9:36, that was hilarious...thanks for the first early morning belly laugh. Oh, and bon appetit!
well, I was chatting away this morning... unfortunately, it was on last night's chat away thread
US Concedes Falluja Assault Won't Break Insurgency
And we didn't know this already?
I guess our "moral president" and his administration wanted to do some killin'. I read so many articles reading up to the war, where the people in the know said Iraq didn't have WMDs and the UN, in fact Scott Ritter, said that they were 94-95% that there were no WMDs and let them have another month to finish up their inspections.
Do you realize I had some right winger tell me that one of the reasons we had to invade Iraq is because Saddam would not let the UN inspectors into the country.
art's an old fart.
Anonymous
Better an "old fart" than a fresh, new one. Oh, and you are still a troll. Why not get a clever handle like the rest of us.
Okay, Tena brought it up. She was seconded. So, idiot question:
Do you take reading material into the bahtroom?
Me? I'm in and out right quick. But when i visit they provide Readers' Digest and National Geographic.
I don't get it.
.
I think one great way to help would be to stop hailing the people who do shit like this as 'freedom fighters.'
anonymous
Yo, trool! Quick question: what's the difference between a car bomb and an M-1 Abrams Battle tank; or an A-10 Warthog?
Quick answer:
About 35,000 pounds; and the car can't fly til AFTER it blows up...
The Dutch are pulling out of Iraq. They have 1350 soldiers there now. That is not a trivial amount.
Falluja is burning and being reduced to rubble while the president tries to makes peace a few miles away in Ramallah. Yeah, thats gonna work.
I recommend the English version of AlJazeera to everyone.
http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage
brooke bitch's comments are meant to incite the christian right who are now on a wave of purge-like tendencies against anything not pro-bush/evangelical jesus or their 'cause'. By saying the "cia" is not with bush and thus is deserving of being laid waste with heads on spikes is jesus-freak language intended to bring about a bible-era mentality.
The culture war has not only begun, it's been fought by these bastards for almost 2 decades. We've not even begun to arm ourselves.
cnn tomorrow has a special on "fight within the church" on the jesus freaks which they estimated at 100 MILLION!
They are on a rampage and will not stop at laws, the Constitution, whatever. They want revenge for all that lion stuff.
Mother fuckers.
Wow. 40 year old folk song still scares the poop out of the powers that be. Even when it's a school band...
http://www.boingboing.net/2004/
1...lers_singi.html
I am now positively certain that Bush is not a Christian - he does not even believe in God!
Anyone who believed in God would not kill innocent people who were of no risk to our country.
Anyone who believed in an after-life would not murder even one person, much less tens of thousands - lest he be punished by God.
Let's stop this 'moral' crap of the Bushies.
Do you take reading material into the bahtroom?
Good question, glad ya asked. When I can, I copy and paste these threads into MS Word and print them so that I have so "shit lit" to read in the can. I don't read in the can when I take a piss, but when I am making fudge I do. I used to take the NYT into the bathroom, but the rest of the family would get upset when I would use their "news" for a "sanitary wipe." I had to stop that, however, because the ink that they switched to in 1999 gave me rashes on my behind.
" Policy making is not the C.I.A.'s concern. "
This is remarkable? Do you think CIA leaks are just fine so long as they are critical of Bush?
" one great way to help would be to stop hailing the people who do shit like this as 'freedom fighters.'"
funny i can't think of one source that has called the insurgency in fallujah freedom fighters.
having said that, you come to my redstate, full of xian terrorists, whom i do not support in the least, and start to bomb me i'm likely to take up arms with them. it's called self preservation.
of course the ignoramuses who run our current administration are too dimwitted to understand the subtelties or complexities of assymetrical war fare. besides big messy wars coincide with their politics.
everything else is just "collateral damage."
Shorter Dorothy Logon:
War is bad for children and other living things.
Yep, Brooks NYT column was hilarious today in that hypocritical, nonsensical way he has of shilling for Bush. Brooks is shrilling-away about punishing the CIA guys for having the nerve to leak to America the actual facts and for placing their allegiance to America rather than to a renegade radical president. All one really needs to about know about Brooks comes from his premise that the CIA is "on the president's payroll". Oh really?
AnneW
Actually, the CIA's budget is appropriated by Congress, and it's classified. But we can't expect Brooks to actually know what he's talking about or anything, he does work for NYT after all...
In any case, Bush would be wise to tread very carefully, as pissing off the CIA is what ultimately brought Nixon down.
You'd think Rethugs would learn. Guess not. Should be an interesting next couple of years.
Krugman on CSPAN 2
Wow. 40 year old folk song still scares the poop out of the powers that be. Even when it's a school band...
http://www.boingboing.net/2004/
1...lers_singi.html
Yeah, but Jack -
Just wait until they get a bunch of pissed off Marines like us on their asses...
I'm fully prepared to infiltrate churches everywhere.
How about you?
the ink that they switched to in 1999 gave me rashes on my behind.
JC
The New York Times is much better suited for the bottom of litter boxes, kitchen floors when training puppies, or lining bird cages. If you do not let it touch your "sensitive spots" it is still a great "dung-catcher."
"funny i can't think of one source that has called the insurgency in fallujah freedom fighters. "
Maybe I was hallucinating when local yokels SWR, Tena Hollingsworth, Hecate Dummkoppfer etc etc were crowing about how if "their country had been invaded, they'd be blowing up cars an killing collaborators, whatever it took" or words to that effect.
"General strike on inauguration day--no work, no purchases, no TV."
No -- inauguration will be a holiday for us feds, and we want to strike, too. Make it the first workday after, or maybe just the week before. The whole week.
Ed
Wow. 40 year old folk song still scares the poop out of the powers that be. Even when it's a school band...
http://www.boingboing.net/2004/
1...lers_singi.html
Maybe closer to Thanksgiving Day Atrios will give us a "Joining Rightwing Relatives Around the Table" thread. I have to admit I have solved this problem by not going this year. The telegram idea up above is good idea also.
whatever it took" or words to that effect. anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.13.04 - 10:13 am
Trool:
Anytime there's an invasion and occupation, those who oppose it are, by definition, 'freedom fighters'; that is, they are folks fighting for their freedom. I'd think even an asswipe as coated in shit as you could comprehend that. But maybe not. So, go Cheney yourself, please...
kali yuga, thanks for the heads-up on Krugman.
living in euroland, how do I resume communications with red state relatives whose politics I can't stand.
Why resume communications?
Cranky When Old
We've got red state relatives who are actually very nice but enormously misguided. For a while, I was really concerned and wanted to try to help them and protect their way of life and their families.
No more. If Wal-Mart comes in and shuts down their local businesses and pays slave wages, I don't give a damn. I live in the city, we don't have Wal-Marts.
If companies come in and wreak environmental havoc and pollute their water and their soil, so what? I don't live there, I don't care.
Farm subsidies? Don't make me laugh - these people want "self-sufficiency" and "free-markets", so let 'em have it. If they lose the family farm, well, that's just our good ole capitalist system.
These people voted for Chumperor, they can live with the consequences.
When they're ready to improve their lot, they'll stop being Red states. Til then, they can wither on the vine and die, they have nothing I want or need.
Yes, even the right wingloons running America admit our invasion and murder of Iraqis in Fallujah is futile.
We did it to scare the world. Note how scared the world is...NOT.
The Chinese are so scared they sent a nuclear sub to Japanese waters and prowled about, giggling.
oldwhitelady,
The Freepi have been screaming for weeks to "flatten" some insurgents. Doesn't matter if they're civilians, they're all "those" people and Gawdawful is on their side.
'Just wait until they get a bunch of pissed off Marines like us on their asses...'
NEWSFLASH: BARNDOG WAS IN THE MARINES
In case anyone missed the memo, Barndog, was, in fact, in the Marines.
I'd think even an asswipe as coated in shit as you could comprehend that.
I agreed with everything you said until this devisive comment. Couldn't we be more pursuasive and palatible to the religous right if we didn't directly insult those that we don't aree with? Couldn't you have stated you opinion as "only an asswipe that was fully coated in shit cannot comprehend that." That way, we didn't really insult anyone. Please, trolls have feelings too. Can't we just get along?
I do like the "go cheney yourself" one, though. That is "presidential/Vice Presidential" language and fully appropriate in our national dialog.
I believe Tucker Carlson's father was the CEO on PBS, and his name is Richard.
I'm going to get a bumper sticker that simply says "I told ya."
anonymous |
what would you do? just sit back and take it. oh, wait...
feels good hav'n bush dick in your mouth?
That is Carlson's dad was the CEO of PBS; on PBS makes him sound like a denizen of Sesame Street.
'Anytime there's an invasion and occupation, those who oppose it are, by definition, 'freedom fighters'; that is, they are folks fighting for their freedom.'
'Yo, trool! Quick question: what's the difference between a car bomb and an M-1 Abrams Battle tank; or an A-10 Warthog?'
Whts the difference between an ANFO truck bomb outside a federal building and a GPS guided missile aimed at Osama Bin Laden? Not very much to the guy getting blown up!!!!! Well at least we agree on something (completely vacuous).
Maybe I was hallucinating when local yokels SWR, Tena Hollingsworth, Hecate Dummkoppfer etc etc were crowing about how if "their country had been invaded, they'd be blowing up cars an killing collaborators, whatever it took" or words to that effect.
Okay, I'll bite: how would you respond to foreign invaders who destroy your hospitals, wreck your schools, eliminate your sewage system, all but eliminate your water system, and leave you with less than 6 hours of erratic electricity per day?
With open arms? With glad cries and hallelujahs? With flowers and garlands and cries of: "GI! GI! Gimme Hershey's!"
This isn't WWII, and Iran wasn't occupied France. They were subjugated by a dictator, but had the highest education attainment in the Middle East, happy homes, neighborhoods, families, cities...ordinary lives.
We took all of that away from them, in the name of "freedom" and "democracy."
But, as Kristofferson wrote, and Bush has yet to learn: "Freedom's just another name for nothin' left to lose."
We've taken everything from the Iraqis, and replaced it with chaos and anarchy. If someone did that to your country, how would you respond?
Stinky,
In addition to the funding the CIA receives from Congress, I am pretty sure the organization has its own sources of funds, also.
Not a chance in hell of the Bush Boy bringing down the CIA.
Oh, and the Bush Boy could not carry Tricky Dick's jock strap.
I for one would like to see a telephone pole shoved up that Brook's wussy's ass. The condescending little puke.
' religous right ' lol
'feels good hav'n bush dick in your mouth?'
charley daniels?? is that you??? the 'country' diction gave it away. or maybe the redneck homo-hatred ... oh but I forgot you guys get an automatic dispensation when you're busting on "right wingers" (another lol for that).
UNLESS THE DEMS BUY CNN BEFORE REPUBS
do they are screwed. I heard a rumor a few weeks back that some big-name repubs wanted to make a move on CNN. Imagine if repubs outright owned both CNN and FOX.
Maybe I was hallucinating---
Oh, fuck off. I love how Second Amendmentists who talk in dreamy terms about how many assault weapons they have ready for when the UN comes for them in Idaho get all huffy when Iraqis act out their militia dreams.
Speaking of Fallujah..I woke up this morning and opened the Daily Herald in Suburban Illinois and on the front page was graced with pictures of 6 of the 22 soldiers that just died in the Fallujah massacre this week. All died in combat.
Each soldier had a story told about him. This really hit me for some reason today, particularly since combat operations were declared over by the man in the flight suit.
This is one of the papers that endorsed Kerry and typically leans to the right and it seems they are really covering it from the hometown "students" angle about the brutality of war and how they are now coping with the loss of their friends at such a young age.
Proportionally, Illinois got hit hard this week accounting for 25 % of the deaths. Or at least the ones that we know of. Also what about the wounded and maimed. I wish we would get counts of those brave kids and and the severity of their injuries. Iften times those that live are forgotten even more.
As these tragic death's mount, I would like nothing more than to have nutcases like Rush, Falwell, Savage and Hannity to explain to the youth of america when they get drafted, just what they are facing. Let them deliver the notes or ring the doorbells. Better yet...send em over there.
That said, my heart aches this morning for these kids and their families and friends.
I applaud the Herald for their front page coverage of this and the fact they shoved the Peterson shit to the right hand column. Particularly when asshats like Drudge have that dirt bags trial as his lead story.
I have been opposed from day one of this war in Iraq, but I don't think any of us should forget these kids, particularly the ones that come home with serious injuries to lives that will never be the same.
I'm really pissed this morning.
Many nuns work all day, every day, in the human-services trenches, and can't afford to have many illusions about human nature, or about the cost to real people of either abstract theology or political theory.
Imagine if repubs outright owned both CNN and FOX.
Actually I worry more about CBS, NBC, ABC.
I know their market share has plummted, but Robert Knight reported the other day that CBS apologized for interrupting a TV show with the news bulletin that Arafat had died. I think the interruption was in prime time.
They blamed it on an overzealous news producer. Heaven forbid news of the death of a Palestinian leader should interrupt prime-time television! Why, I'm surprised they put it on the newscast at all! Maybe they should have announced it during the newscast with a sneering "Good riddance!" or "About time!" for good measure.
Turn off the TV. You don't get any news there, anyway. And the people who do, well....you can't do anything for them.
"If someone did that to your country, how would you respond?"
Oh, RMJ, you know the answer to that. They would collaborate.
Many nuns work all day, every day, in the human-services trenches, and can't afford to have many illusions about human nature, or about the cost to real people of either abstract theology or political theory.
At that level theology stops being abstract and starts being incarnate. And political theory fades into insignificance. Which is largely what it deserves.
"Iraqis act out their militia dreams."
On the contrary, I am happy to equate Fallujan nutjobs with Gore Vidal inamorato Timothy McVeigh and his ilk. Why aren't more of you??
'Oh, RMJ, you know the answer to that. They would collaborate.'
I guess that's another vote for 'freedom fighter' then.
Well, that was quick. The war in Iraq is like Vietnam on crack.
Now we're told that the "insurgency" won't be affected by the demolition of Fallujah. And now Mosul, a city of 3 million, 10 times larger than Fallujah, has been taken over by anti-American forces. How long has the aerial assault on Mosul, which is mentioned in the article, been going on?
'Oh, RMJ, you know the answer to that. They would collaborate.'
I guess that's another vote for 'freedom fighter' then.
Now we have the measure of this anonymouse.
This is the best response he/she/it could come up with. Another straw man torched.
Upthread the idea of concientious objector status was memntioned. If you belong to a church, check out their policy on concientious objectorship. Not all denominations support it. The Episcopal Church does.
equate Fallujan nutjobs with Gore Vidal inamorato Timothy McVeigh and his ilk.
Oh, I don't know, trool.
By whom had the Murrah Building been invaded? I guess I missed it. I was living in Okiedom at the time of the bombing, and M-1 Abrams, Bradleys, and HumVees mounting .50 cal machine guns were not conspicuous on the streets. I do not recall a siege, either. I might have missed it, though, cuz I was outta town at the exact moment of the attack.
Couldn't we be more pursuasive and palatible to the religous right if we didn't directly insult those that we don't aree with?
I have no intention of being palatable to the fundemented. Piss on them.
' If someone did that to your country, how would you respond?'
I can tell you how I would NOT respond.
i would not respond like this
i would not respond like this
what's wrong with this???
Secondly, Al-Zarqawi and some non-trivial component of the Fallujan insurgency are from Jordan and Syria. Iraq is no more 'his country' than it is yours or mine.
Every time I read another story about Faluja I just want to cry. Why are we killing those people? I don't think they ever did anything to us.
Well, Louise, you might say attacks on Mosul have been going on since about 1914, for exactly the same reason now as then. What makes it lots more fun is that the population of Mosul is far more skewed to Turkish rather than Arab....
"During and after the war British military and political strategy and British capital had succeeded in gaining control over important future sources of supply to an extent which led Americans to allege that they were being shut out. The Department of State began diplomatic representations to Great Britain. In the correspondence which ensued the British government took the position that Britain was not trying to preëmpt the world's oil supply, that there were no restrictions against Americans except in certain British territories where the production was not great, and that the great bulk of current petroleum output was that of the United States itself....
The State Department directed its attack particularly against certain arrangements affecting the rich Mesopotamian fields. In 1914, just before the war, the Turkish government had promised to grant a concession for these fields to the Turkish Petroleum Company, an international group owned by the Anglo-Persian Oil Company (50 per cent), the Deutsche Bank (25 per cent), and the Royal Dutch Shell (25 per cent). The British invaded Mesopotamia as far as Bagdad in 1917 and advanced to Mosul after the armistice. Great Britain was allotted a mandate over the territory at the San Remo Conference in 1920, and at this same conference a secret agreement was also concluded between Britain and France with regard to oil. This provided that in case a private company should be used to develop the Mesopotamian fields the British government should place a 25 per cent share in such company at the disposal of the French. The company, however, was to be under permanent British control. In other words, the French received the right to purchase the share of the Deutsche Bank in the Turkish Petroleum Company, which the British government had expropriated during the war. In return, France was to permit the construction of pipe lines across Syria. "On May 12 [1920], in ignorance of the oil agreement at San Remo but aware of the mandate allotment, the American government presented through Ambassador Davis at London a note expressing the hope that no exclusive concessions would be granted in the mandated territory and that the principle of treatment in law and fact equal to that accorded to the nationals or subjects of the Mandatory power should be guaranteed to the nationals or subjects of all nations. This note was prompted by the belief that the British authorities were quietly preparing for a monopolistic development of the oil resources in Mesopotamia. When in July, 1920, the news of the San Remo Agreement was published, the United States was prompt to file a protest with the British Foreign Office and the discussion continued for several years." The United States claimed that
"This is the best response he/she/it could come up with. Another straw man torched."
What's the straw man? Some guy upthread said no one equates the fallujah insurgency with freedom fighters, and out come the lot of you doing just that. Thanks again. Setting collaboration in false opposition to car bombings and beheadings, that is the straw man. So you're AGAINST car bombings now? This is the form your 'insurgency' has taken, sorry!!!!
Couldn't we be more persuasive and palatable to the religious right if we didn't directly insult those that we don't aree with?
There's a huge difference between disagreeing with someone and being disgusted at the actions of delusional psychotics. I don't give a damn about reaching out to "people"(I use the term loosely)who belong in a padded cell doped up on Zoloft.
....The United States claimed that the mandate principle demanded equality of economic treatment to the nationals of all countries, no monopolistic concessions, and reasonable publicity in the matter of concessions; that the preferential treatment shown to France was not in consonance with the principle of equality of treatment; and that the promise given the Turkish Petroleum Company in 1914 could not be treated as a definite and binding agreement. After several years of negotiations, in which the governments discussed principles of mandatory trusteeship and the open door while the oil companies dickered, it was announced that a group of American companies (Standard Oil of New Jersey, Standard Oil of New York, Gulf Refining, Atlantic Refining, Pan-American Petroleum and Transport) was to have the privilege of purchasing 25 per cent of the shares of the Turkish Petroleum Company from those held by the Anglo-Persian. "This arrangement was hailed by the Standard Oil officials as the first instance in history of the development of oil fields according to a 'practical open-door policy.'"(32)
(Eugene Staley, War & the Private Investor, 1935)
"Why are we killing those people?"
Cuz George said so.
I don't want to cry, but I'm crying. And writing letters. And looking for a way out of this doomed empire. It's only with shame that I can still call this "my" country.
Peace.
'and M-1 Abrams, Bradleys, and HumVees mounting .50 cal machine guns were not conspicuous on the streets.'
And they werent speaking Arabic neither, go figure, allowing your absurd analogy-nullifying demand for complete factual parallels. What they did have in common were big truck bombs going off with the idea of killing a lot of civilian collaborators.
anonymous @ 10:48.
You sir are full of shit, while sitting undoubtably in the confrotable confines of your basement, feel free to state that you would not respond in the fashions cited, if the tanks were rolling down the streets of your home town.
Actually maybe I have that wrong. I see two responces you might be likely to employ if Islamic hords stormed your citadel, bowel evacuation or appeasement and fealty to your new Islamic Overlords.
It is possible that you might suprise your self and become a reluctant leader in the insurgency, and embrace the mantle of "Freedom Fighter".
But maybe you have a nice underground redoubt that you can hang out while the battles are fought over head.
'I don't want to cry, but I'm crying. And writing letters'
That should do it. You should write Al-Zarqawi a sternly worded letter, that's sure to win some hearts and minds.
"A Legitimate Recount Effort in Ohio"
Click homepage for link
"Efforts to launch an official statewide recount of the Ohio presidential vote are underway. While it's unclear if a recount will result in a Kerry victory, it's likely to highlight many flaws in Ohio elections that may have tilted results toward Republicans and against Democrats.
Common Cause of Ohio and the Alliance for Democracy, a progressive coalition, Thursday announced they were launching a recount campaign for Ohio. Columbus, Ohio attorney Cliff Arnebeck, who represents both groups, said both the Green Party and Libertarian Party presidential candidates would seek a recount if the $110,000 filing fee could be raised. "Common Cause and the Alliance for Democracy are not partisan. The purpose of the recount is to verify the honesty of the process," Arnebeck said. "That is in the interest of anyone who would be declared the winner."
I think the bloggosphere should try to rally behind this. Perhaps Atrios and Kos and start a funding drive?
MYOB'
.
GWPDA,
You share so much history with us -- I'm ashamed of my ignorance about this part of the world. It's trite, but true, what they say about those who don't know history being doomed to repeat it.
"yak yak yak and embrace the mantle of "Freedom Fighter".
Right so now we are up to three or four votes for "freedom fighter." Anyone else care to contest the notion that Eschatonvolk think car bombers are freedom fighters and not terrorists?
False opposition: 'collaborators', or truck bombs in marketplaces. Read the IBC database, look and see for yourself where the greatest number of deaths are coming from. Surprisingly (or not) it isnt from 50 cal machine guns.
Even the FLN had the good taste and good sense to bomb FRENCH people once in a while.
'How can we help (and assure them there are at least 51 million of us who want to try)'
I think one great way to help would be to stop hailing the people who do shit like this as 'freedom fighters.'
anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.13.04 - 10:01 am | #
what about shit like this?
Collective punishment, regrettable necessity
By Pepe Escobar
I'm ashamed of my ignorance about this part of the world. It's trite, but true, what they say about those who don't know history being doomed to repeat it.
So am I (ashamed for you), and yes indeed on the second point s well.
They have a bunch of koolaid driners asking Krugman questions in the call in portion, so far 4 to 1 Faith based vs Reality based callers.
I feel a transcription coming on. Because it truly is amazing.
I haven't gotten to read all this thread, so this article by Helen Thomas may have already been mentioned:
Attack on Fallujah can't be justified
WASHINGTON -- Do Americans of good conscience really believe that we are making the United States more secure by bombing and killing the people of Fallujah?
It's trite, but true, what they say about those who don't know history being doomed to repeat it.
I do not think it is at all trite, my dear. It only took 30 years before history repeated itself in this case.
You know Hecate, I rather think that in this particular case, the institutional knowledge has been muted deliberately. I -know- that it has been in the US armed forces, because I -know- it's been removed from the curriculum.
Still, I did have the idea back in 1991 that I could easily have been the only person shouting to MI6 to "GO DOWNSTAIRS AND GET THE OPERATIONAL RECORDS FOR 1920!" No point in re-inventing the wheel, don't you know.
Trool:
Freedom Fighter: Anybody resisting an illegal invasion and occupation, by whatsoever means are at their disposal... That is true in Iraq, Palestine, Venezuela, Cuba, or Moline, fucking Illinois.
I don't get the problem you have. You object to blowing up civilians? Really? But only the ones blown up by car-bombs? Not the ones blown up by daisy-cutters dropped by b-52s from 30,000 feet? WTF, fella? How can you support the preemptive invasion in which at least 50,000 innocent civilians have been slaughtered by US ordnance?
Can you say hypocrite, fuckwitz?
War is hell, and warriors use whatever means they have available to exact casualties upon their enemies.
Um, tinfoil hattie, that was the asshole troll, not Tena.
Anonymous
Guess your trolling backfired, then, 'cause that was funny as shit, no pun intended.
"[robotic leftist/jihadist boilerplate]"
-oldwhitelady
Great article, an article by a non-Iraqi, citing non-Iraqis (and fake Iraqis) telling them how car bombings are good for them and if the US just left things would settle right down. Very humane.
http://www.atimes.com/ind-pak/CH...k/
CH30Df01.html
Here's a GREAT pepe escobar piece dated August, 2001 (!!!), where he talks about how Osama Bin Laden is a 'bit player' in terms suspiciously similar to the way he describes Al Zarqawi. You cant make this shit up!!!!!
Re: being more "palatable" to the religious right:
We should continue to disagree aggressively with their political agenda and goals, always on the basis that our government was not set up to enforce the religious law or beliefs of any particular sect.
At the same time we need to refrain from sneering at anyone's "sky buddy." That's every bit as offensive as hearing from them that we're immoral just because we're not obsessed with being Ruptured. There are many, many rational people in this country who not only have and practice religious faith, but also do not reject science or logic. While it might in fact be far-fetched to subscribe to the belief that there is a supernatural creator, none of us can prove that there is NOT one. We know evolution is fact, because we've observed it in laboratory settings; we don't know how life itself started because we haven't managed to do create life out of non-living matter ourselves. A lot of "religious" people are able to reconcile science and faith in this way. And since there's no harm in it, there's really no good reason for anyone to denigrate their belief in a creator. Let them have that, because you can't prove it isn't true any more than they can convince you - or prove to you - that it is. That's why it's called "faith;" it's belief in something that can't be proven.
Instead point to the internal inconsistencies in their practice of their own faith. Why are they so obsessed with end times? Isn't it true that if they are following Christ's teachings they're going to heaven and it won't affect them anyway? Didn't Christ tell them to tend to their own garden rather than focusing on the shortcomings of others ("the mote in thy brother's eye")? Then why do they think they need to legislate personal morality? Didn't most of Christ's teachings concern social justice rather than personal morality (except in cases where the latter impacts the former)? What are they doing to make society more just? Doesn't the Bible say that only God can judge moral failings? Why do they think they're more fit to judge and punish personal moral failings than God Himself? Won't that make God mad?
You have to talk to people in the language they understand. Most believers of any stripe, no matter how rational, stop listening when someone sneers about a "sky buddy."
"That is true in Iraq, Palestine, Venezuela, Cuba, or Moline, fucking Illinois. "
And a fifth vote for "freedom fighter" with Tim McVeigh thrown in as "freedom fighter" for good measure. Where's that charley guy??
Konopelli,
Well said, the thinly vieled moral relativism, displayed by the appologists, is really something.
If this administration had anything resembling a plan for the post war phase we would not be having this "conversation" and most of Iraq would have running water and round the clock electricity.
But we just had to get greedy, and by "We" I mean CheneyBurton, and CarBushlyle.
and of course their si the stink of bigotry just beneath the surface - the sanctity of life only applys to Americans, unless it is politically or intellectually expediant.
I'm a coward. Please don't hurt me.
Please?
"thinly vieled moral relativism"
holy smokes form a crowd who is happy to equate truck bombers and missionary beheaders with Tom Paine and the Maquis that is just too damn rich.
POWER TO THE PEOPLE! WASTE ALL PIGS!
Jennifer,
I understand the point you're making, but ridicule is a very effective tool and we need to use it more, not less, aggressively. The right has used it very effectively (feminazis, flip-flop, most liberal, Taxachusetts) for years while we've stood around being nice little liberals who expect to get credit for playing nice. How's that working?
In some ways, liberals remind me of women back in the 70s who were joining the work force for the first time in really large numbers and who believed that if they were just nice girls who did their own jobs as competnetly as possible and showed what a team player they were that they'd naturally get promoted. It didn't work.
We need to paint these radical fundie wackjobs as exactly the "outside the mainstream" creeps they are -- the kind of people no one wants to be or to associate with. Will it change the minds of the hardcore? No, they love to feel persecuted even when they aren't. But it will marginalize them.
And I say this as a very actively religious person.
I reiterate. Padded cell, zoloft.
"Couldn't we be more persuasive and palatable to the religious right if we didn't directly insult those that we don't aree with?"
Since they act on behalf of another, I say let them first prove the existence of that other person.
So in the following order....
1. They must prove the existence of their alleged god. This requires precise scientific evidence acquired using the scientific method. The absence of proof to the contrary is not evidence.
2. They must prove that their alleged god is *the* god and not some loafer who showed up at the end and took credit for everything. Afterall, the bible does have their alleged god sugesting that other gods exist.
3. They must demonstrate why their elleged god is worthy of worship. Let their alleged god justify why it must have our slave-like loyalty despite little justification? One godo way to start is to answer why a god great enough to create the vast and elaborate universe needs the pathetic praise of a bunch of upright, hairless monkeys?
Knowing these people like I do, the first thing they will do is try to turn the burden of proof onto me or others by asking "if not god, then who created everything?". No dice. We will answer your questions once you've answered the three above.
MYOB'
.
holy smokes form a crowd who is happy to equate truck bombers and missionary beheaders with Tom Paine and the Maquis that is just too damn rich.
Nope. Not happening here. No one is advocating freedom fighters. The discussion is that this type of resistance should be expected.
"He is ill and always in hiding - usually "somewhere near Kabul". Once in a while he travels incognito to Peshawar. His organization, the Al Qa'Ida, is split, and in tatters. The Taliban owe him a lot for his past deeds towards the movement and in putting them in power in Afghanistan - contributing with a stack of his own personal fortune of millions of dollars. But no longer an asset, he has become a liability. "
Pepe Escobar, August 2001!!! ( with a few more !! just for kicks)
Oldwhitelady, why is Pepe Escobar still collecting paychecks from the Asia Times?
Hecate - might I suggest then, that we float the idea that there are many "Christians" who are no longer focusing on "Christ", and are instead devoting all energies to their fears of Rupture? That in fact there is an entire religious population in the country that should be described as "Rapturians" or "Rapturists" rather than "Christians"? Because as pointed out, a true Christian has nothing to fear from, and no need to focus upon, cataclysmic divine retribution.
I do agree to this extent: every time they create offense against those who believe differently than they do, we should point out how offensive they would find it if someone ridiculed their beliefs - and how ironic it is that they are ridiculing others at the same time they whine about their beliefs not being "respected." Respect is a two-way street, and perhaps if they learned to extend it they'd receive it in return. Since they haven't learned that yet, we should repeat it at every opportunity. Bushco has proven that repetition works with them.
funny stuff re ashcroft (check out the last three or four posts:
Lennon Report
monday he takes on brooks at NYT
'in which at least 50,000 innocent civilians have been slaughtered by US ordnance?'
See, this is what happens when you don't even bother to read your own sources too carefully. Check the IBC stats, numbnuts. US ordinance doesn't account for even a simple majority of the death tallies there. And the ludicrous lancet figures don't even pretend to be 'civilian' so don't let's go there either, shall we?
Tom Paine and the Maquis
Tee-hee! You funny thing! The -Maquis-? Somebody's been living in B-pictures from Republic a little bit too long.... C'mon out, boychik, and please - until you pass your exams at least, spare the world your strange historical grab-bag of wishful thinking.
Tom Paine and the -Maquis-????? Whoop!
anonymous - and drunk drivers aren't responsible for deaths from the accidents they cause either, because really it was the cars that caused the deaths.
Unless the entire underpinnings of US law have been uprooted, the last time I checked, our laws try to hold individuals who create conditions that allow death or injury to occur accountable for creating the circumstances that let bad shit happen.
Or as your buddy Colin Powell likes to say, "You break it, you bought it."
That should do it. You should write Al-Zarqawi a sternly worded letter, that's sure to win some hearts and minds.
anonymous
How many hearts and minds have been won bombing the shit out of civilans in a nation where 50 percent of the population is under 18?
Kids who see their homes destroyed and their parents killed are probably not going to grow up to have a very favorable opinion of Americans, ya think?
But luckily for us, Bush is in office so we'll have the Rapture and Jesus will come down and take the righteous back to Heaven so we won't need to deal with it.
we float the idea that there are many "Christians" who are no longer focusing on "Christ", and are instead devoting all energies to their fears of Rupture?
Good idea. And, I think liberal Xians are going to have to work to take their religion back from these people by doing something they find uncomfortable, which is criticizing others. I've seen some indications that this is starting to happen and hope it will continue. These mega churches with their projected fetuses scare me.
See, this is what happens when you don't even bother to read your own sources too carefully. Check the IBC stats, numbnuts. US ordinance doesn't account for even a simple majority of the death tallies there. And the ludicrous lancet figures don't even pretend to be 'civilian' so don't let's go there either, shall we?
anonymous
So, what is the accurate number for civilian deaths in Iraq? I'm eager to know, by all means post the number and your source and just settle the issue once and for all.
(crickets chirping)
Nope. Not happening here. No one is advocating freedom fighters. The discussion is that this type of resistance should be expected.
Billy B | Email | Homepage | 11.13.04 - 11:33 am | #
Exactly. Well spoken.
I would add that as long as Bush foreign policy continues to try and sway public opinion through lies by insinuating that every one of the insurgents are merely terrorists and islamic extremists then there will never be any way by which we can settle the issue. The grouping of muslims fighting against our forces with Osama Bin Laden is no different than our grouping of Timothy McVeigh with Osama Bin Laden. Both persons attacked this country. So are we going to label all christians or right wingers as terrorists?
MYOB'
.
'So, what is the accurate number for civilian deaths in Iraq?'
Well, using the IBC as a benchmark, significantly less than the lowest-end estimate of civilian deaths due to sanctions. Does the "break it/bought it" platitude maybe not apply to those?
The sanctions have been in place for over a decade. The war has been in place almost two years now. You're going to compare deaths over a decade to deaths over the last year or two?
That's like people saying we shouldn't bitch about 1000+ deaths in Iraq since the war's end because 50x that many died in Vietnam. The U.S military of the 1960's is about as comparable to today's U.S military as the Iraqis. With our sophistication, technology, experience, and training, the number of U.S. soldiers' deaths should never reach as high as Vietnam.
MYOB'
.
"Tena" at 9:36 was not me.
Look, the name stealer has been using my name for most of the week. Most people can tell when it isn't me, but the stealer is getting better at it.
Please, everyone, pay attention. I wasn't even up at 9:30 Eastern.
I note now that he's using my email and First Draft URL. I don't know what to do about it, but I'm looking into it in a very serious way.
I reiterate. Padded cell, zoloft.
OT and way late, but my Inner Nitpicker must point out that Zoloft is a mere antidepressant. There are probably a number of people here taking it. I think you're reaching for one of the antipsychotic drugs.
Thank God, Tena. I just can't imagine eating my turkey dinner in the water closet.
'The sanctions have been in place for over a decade. The war has been in place almost two years now. You're going to compare deaths over a decade to deaths over the last year or two?'
In fact, I'm happy to compare the two on an annual basis. The lowest estimates I have seen for sanctions related deaths (ignoring the vast reserves of Saddam-only death stats) is something approaching 250,000, most of those children (read please UNICEF's statistics on Iraqi child mortality rates). Those are deaths that 'we caused' per your ludicrous moral scheme whereby all chains of causality and blame lead to the White House (an attitude shared by Osama Bin Laden.) So assuming "we own what we break", we owned Iraq many years ago.
The high end of the Iraqi body count stats, accounting for two years of war, are in the mid 16,000 range, or roughly 2/3 of ONE year's worth of sanctions.
VS,
I was momentarily suckered into believing that to be the real Tena as well, but then realized that the hompage link was not the color of a visited link, (story was a bit fishy as well) and since I check out the FD frequently, i put 2 and 2 together and suprise suprise, came up with 4.
Dumbassed trolls. I see anonypuss is still engaged in the great apples and aranges battle.
Lancet's pretty accurate. They've used the same sampling method in many countries and no one complained until now - because now it makes us feel bad, or "we can't be responsible for that."
don't be a Holocaust denier...because 100,000 folks is a holocaust.And we're responsible.
The lancet study is a wild-assed guess dressed in clinical scientific garb. Its pre-war infant mortality rate (the very basis of their nutso extrapolation) puts them at odds with just about every other study on the topic including but not limited to UNICEF. It doesnt even make logical sense on its surface -- consider that using their figures there would have to have been several-hundred-person massacres throughout Iraq on almost a daily basis. Surely even Al Jazeera would be able to document a fairer proportion of these than 10%!!!!!????
And even its authors acknowledge it doesn't refer to civilians!!
From an astute comment at ChicagoBoyz:
'
http://www.unicef.org/newsline/9...line/
99pr29.htm
To take some figures:
85% of the population in the survey
24000 households surveyed
In 1999, there were 131/000 under 5s mortality
In 1999, infant mortality (under 1 yr) was 108/000
In 1999, maternal mortality was 29/000
In the Lancet publication:
Only 800 odd households surveyed
Before war, infant mortality was 29/000
After war, infant mortality 57/000
Clearly bombing is good for the Iraqis, it halves their their infant
mortality rate.'
'don't be a Holocaust denier...because 100,000 folks is a holocaust.And we're responsible.'
250,000 children is also a holocaust, and we're responsible for those deaths too.
Why do you support baby-killing?
Guess your trolling backfired, then, 'cause that was funny as shit, no pun intended.
Pardon me -- I had no idea that in a global discussion, one first name was ECLUSIVELY the domain of an individual. I have my attorneys checking on it, but in the meantime, I will not use my handle here -- guess someone more "important" has it. That is OK, I can just use the default handle for now -- at least until the attorneys straighten this out. I know that posting as "anonymous" will piss off someone else -- please try to understand that I have just learned that my name is already "taken"
I'm not a troll
the troll's not me
the trolls the guy
behind the tree!
From an astute comment at ChicagoBoyz:
Which has been explained (and refuted) by Chris Lightfoot (via Crooked Timber).
Next?
Why is it that trolls think that repeating lies make them any less false?
anonymous in nc, would you care to explain what the term "confidence interval" means to the crowd, and how it might apply to a survey of 800 extrapolated to represent a population of 25 MILLION. I keep seeing these 'rebuttals', as if linking to some guy's web pages absolves you of the need to think through and explain something yourself.
' (wildly different samples and methodology for the pre- and post-war cases, and covering a period much longer than the war)'
Yeah, no shit. Wildly different methodologies. One methodology samples 80% of the country, the other samples 800 households.
Further down the page we have this cogent remark.
That's a helluva rebuttal there nc. Nice to see the reality based community sticking to its guns.
"I don't think the scatter plot you cite can be taken as evidence that a substantial decline in some measures of malnutrition would yield a two thirds fall within three years (in some countries infant mortality is 100 and malnourishment up at 12, while in others for the same infant mortality it's at 2), or that if this was vaguely credible Unicef and WHO, being well aware of the figures for malnutrition, would publish figures for infant and under 5 mortality that are this seriously removed from reality."
anonymous in nc, this could be a good litmus test for intellectual honesty, sort of the kerning debate replayed with public health statistics
Do anti-war people honestly think the Lancet study's pre-war Iraqi infant mortality figure of 29 per 1000 is accurate?
ok, I am done boring the shit out of the 2 people left on this thread, so all conclusive rebuttals-by-link will go unchallenged for the moment. Have a nice evening, all.
Public Service Anouncement
Those planning to attend the Jon Bon Jovi, Bruce Springsteen, Barbara Streisand Concert hosted by Michael Moore on the White House lawn are hereby notified that it has been cancelled.
God Bless America!
*
The subject called "#2 Troll" seems to be stuck in the past. His obsession with celebrities is a futile attempt to obscure the fact that he has no friends and no job possibilities.
"there are none so free to break their chains as they that wear them."
--james connolly, irish freedom fighter
hey, where is the random thought, eschatonian quote of the day?
Anyone hear that Cheney is in the hospital?
We can ONLY hope!
"I pledge allegiance to the flag
Of these Divided States of America
And to the dictatorship for which it stands
One nation under Bush
Deeply polarized
With liberty and justice for few."
http://www.kaicurry.com/peacecan...wbush/remindus/
http://www.kaicurry.com/peacecan...wbush/remindus/
http://www.kaicurry.com/peacecan...wbush/remindus/
http://www.kaicurry.com/peacecan...wbush/remindus/
http://www.kaicurry.com/peacecan...wbush/remindus/
http://www.kaicurry.com/peacecan...wbush/remindus/
http://www.kaicurry.com/peacecan...wbush/remindus/
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