I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Yes, please, let's cut out the deadwood NOW. Please.
Yes, please, let's cut out the deadwood NOW. Please.
Name names! I thought the exact same thing when I read that. That and how do you make them leave? I'm assuming they won't go quietly.
Name names! I thought the exact same thing when I read that. That and how do you make them leave? I'm assuming they won't go quietly.
Purge Baby Purge!
Purge Baby Purge!
The New Messiahs is almost twenty years old, but it rings with current authenticity. The transcribed words are evidence of a plan to take over the government of the United States. This is not a “conspiracy theory”; it is the recording of the actual conspiracy—the actual plans of how a group of ambitious religious leaders became purveyors of a new and secular fundamentalism whose political beliefs are now being enacted to the detriment of all Americans. The religious right’s plan for you includes: the burning of all J.K. Rowling’s Harry Potter books; the denial of your right to choose an abortion if it becomes necessary in your life—even to save your life; the revamping of the U.S. Constitution; and the denial of your right to choose what you see, hear and read in the media.
----Yurica
The New Messiahs is almost twenty years old, but it rings with current authenticity. The transcribed words are evidence of a plan to take over the government of the United States. This is not a “conspiracy theory”; it is the recording of the actual conspiracy—the actual plans of how a group of ambitious religious leaders became purveyors of a new and secular fundamentalism whose political beliefs are now being enacted to the detriment of all Americans. The religious right’s plan for you includes: the burning of all J.K. Rowling’s Harry Potter books; the denial of your right to choose an abortion if it becomes necessary in your life—even to save your life; the revamping of the U.S. Constitution; and the denial of your right to choose what you see, hear and read in the media.
----Yurica
uh, he said purge
uh, he said purge
Josh's post also made me yearn for Bill Bradley, like catching a scent that reminds you of happy childhood memories, though I can't quite make the connection as to why.
Josh's post also made me yearn for Bill Bradley, like catching a scent that reminds you of happy childhood memories, though I can't quite make the connection as to why.
Kerry is the titular head of the party until someone is nominated in '08. I agree that nothing is served by trashing him, unless we're hell bent on convincing the other side that we were WRONG WRONG WRONG to have nominated him in the first place.
That sentiment may please the purists who are holding out for the Second Coming of Abbie Hoffman or Mahatma Gandhi, but merely convinces moderates and others that we are not to be trusted with office if we can't stick by our own guy.
We had unprecedented loyalty and cohesiveness in this campaign. I'd hate to see us piss it away in circular firing squads and recriminations, so that we have to rebuild a coalition from the ground up in a little less than four years.
Kerry is the titular head of the party until someone is nominated in '08. I agree that nothing is served by trashing him, unless we're hell bent on convincing the other side that we were WRONG WRONG WRONG to have nominated him in the first place.
That sentiment may please the purists who are holding out for the Second Coming of Abbie Hoffman or Mahatma Gandhi, but merely convinces moderates and others that we are not to be trusted with office if we can't stick by our own guy.
We had unprecedented loyalty and cohesiveness in this campaign. I'd hate to see us piss it away in circular firing squads and recriminations, so that we have to rebuild a coalition from the ground up in a little less than four years.
OT, but "Apocalypse Now" is on A&E for those who tire of the incessant boredom of the current war and all the ho-hum reports from our embeds in Fallujah...
OT, but "Apocalypse Now" is on A&E for those who tire of the incessant boredom of the current war and all the ho-hum reports from our embeds in Fallujah...
Has the Christian Right infiltrated the DNC?
Has the Christian Right infiltrated the DNC?
I hope to God that Kerry does what he does best; INVESTIGATE, INVESIGIGATE!
Drag the bastards into the dock, Mr. Kerry!
I hope to God that Kerry does what he does best; INVESTIGATE, INVESIGIGATE!
Drag the bastards into the dock, Mr. Kerry!
Bush Con't Surf!!
Bush Con't Surf!!
Hallelujah.
Way too many people who are more interested in how important they are than whether the party gets anywhere, and the culture of exclusion isn't helping anyone.
Hallelujah.
Way too many people who are more interested in how important they are than whether the party gets anywhere, and the culture of exclusion isn't helping anyone.
I've hated hearing them go after Kerry almost as much as I've hated the Republican gloating. Kerry did very little wrong; the DNC stabbed him in the back. Our party doesn't deserve the commitment of a good man like him.
I've hated hearing them go after Kerry almost as much as I've hated the Republican gloating. Kerry did very little wrong; the DNC stabbed him in the back. Our party doesn't deserve the commitment of a good man like him.
Chapter 15 Excerpts
The War to Control America
The Year is 1985: The Author is Watching Pat Robertson's TV Show
Pat Robertson envisions a changed America. He speaks of future political leaders who will listen only to “the counsel of the godly” and will reject advice from “ungodly” men. Curiously, he does not define who the godly are, but his rhetoric closely parallels that of Sun Myung Moon who speaks of a “higher dimension” of Christianity, and said, “We must realize and consider seriously the mission of Christianity to lead a supra-denominational, cultural revolution on a worldwide scale.”
The sonorous voice of Stephen McPheeters, one of Robertson’s special reporters on the 700 Club rings across the air waves: “The stage has been set and the conflict of the ages will likely continue into the twenty-first century. Secular and religious leaders agree that the future of western society is hanging in the balance.”
Then Robertson called for a “special revival.”
“Not just good church evangelism,” he said, “that’s not what a revival is. A revival is a sweeping change in society—where people think differently—live differently act on a wide scale basis. And we haven’t seen that yet. It’s coming, but it hasn’t gotten here yet.” In effect, the revival will take aim at the “Centralization of power in Washington,” and Robertson warns, “The only way to change it according to Jefferson, we will have a choice between reformation or revolution!”
--Yurica
Chapter 15 Excerpts
The War to Control America
The Year is 1985: The Author is Watching Pat Robertson's TV Show
Pat Robertson envisions a changed America. He speaks of future political leaders who will listen only to “the counsel of the godly” and will reject advice from “ungodly” men. Curiously, he does not define who the godly are, but his rhetoric closely parallels that of Sun Myung Moon who speaks of a “higher dimension” of Christianity, and said, “We must realize and consider seriously the mission of Christianity to lead a supra-denominational, cultural revolution on a worldwide scale.”
The sonorous voice of Stephen McPheeters, one of Robertson’s special reporters on the 700 Club rings across the air waves: “The stage has been set and the conflict of the ages will likely continue into the twenty-first century. Secular and religious leaders agree that the future of western society is hanging in the balance.”
Then Robertson called for a “special revival.”
“Not just good church evangelism,” he said, “that’s not what a revival is. A revival is a sweeping change in society—where people think differently—live differently act on a wide scale basis. And we haven’t seen that yet. It’s coming, but it hasn’t gotten here yet.” In effect, the revival will take aim at the “Centralization of power in Washington,” and Robertson warns, “The only way to change it according to Jefferson, we will have a choice between reformation or revolution!”
--Yurica
Start with this list. Its no wonder Bush employment numbers steadily got better, the Kerry campaign steadily kept hiring more and more advisors.
Mary Beth Cahill, Campaign Manager
Bob Shrum, Michael Donilon, and Tad Devine (business partners)
John Hurley, Coordinator of Veterans' Affairs
Tom Kiley, pollster
Mark Mellman, pollster
Jeanne Shaheen, Campaign Chairwoman
Stephanie Cutter, Campaign Spokeswoman
Rand Beers, National Security adviser and Homeland security adviser
Roger C. Altman, Campaign adviser
Chad Clanton
Anthony Coley
Anne Davis
Tom Eisenhauer
Steve Elmendorf, Political Director
Mike Gehrke, Research Director
Heather Higginbottom
Marcus Jadotte, Deputy Campaign Manager
Mark Kornblau
Katherine Lister
Michael Meehan, Senior Adviser
Kim Molstre
Kathy Roeder
Phil Singer
Ali Wade
David Wade, Deputy Communications Director/Traveling Press Secretary
Joseph Winner
Start with this list. Its no wonder Bush employment numbers steadily got better, the Kerry campaign steadily kept hiring more and more advisors.
Mary Beth Cahill, Campaign Manager
Bob Shrum, Michael Donilon, and Tad Devine (business partners)
John Hurley, Coordinator of Veterans' Affairs
Tom Kiley, pollster
Mark Mellman, pollster
Jeanne Shaheen, Campaign Chairwoman
Stephanie Cutter, Campaign Spokeswoman
Rand Beers, National Security adviser and Homeland security adviser
Roger C. Altman, Campaign adviser
Chad Clanton
Anthony Coley
Anne Davis
Tom Eisenhauer
Steve Elmendorf, Political Director
Mike Gehrke, Research Director
Heather Higginbottom
Marcus Jadotte, Deputy Campaign Manager
Mark Kornblau
Katherine Lister
Michael Meehan, Senior Adviser
Kim Molstre
Kathy Roeder
Phil Singer
Ali Wade
David Wade, Deputy Communications Director/Traveling Press Secretary
Joseph Winner
It was wrong, wrong, wrong to nominate Kerry. There were some smug DNC movers and shakers that thought they knew what electable looked like. Well they didn't.
It's the civil rights, stupid.
It was wrong, wrong, wrong to nominate Kerry. There were some smug DNC movers and shakers that thought they knew what electable looked like. Well they didn't.
It's the civil rights, stupid.
Democracy sucks, anonymous.
Democracy sucks, anonymous.
It was wrong, wrong, wr--
ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
..
It was wrong, wrong, wr--
ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
..
I couldn't agree more with that list
I couldn't agree more with that list
It's the civil rights, stupid.
Anonymous
Like the ones Bushco is taking away as we speak? Why do trolls hate our democracy and freedoms?
Go watch "Apocalypse Now" on A&E, it'll prepare you for becoming a draftee to go fight one of Bush's wars.
Freedom isn't "free" you know - it's paid for by the blood of the poor and lower middle class. The Rethugs control three branches of government, get used to it.
It's the civil rights, stupid.
Anonymous
Like the ones Bushco is taking away as we speak? Why do trolls hate our democracy and freedoms?
Go watch "Apocalypse Now" on A&E, it'll prepare you for becoming a draftee to go fight one of Bush's wars.
Freedom isn't "free" you know - it's paid for by the blood of the poor and lower middle class. The Rethugs control three branches of government, get used to it.
Can someone point me to an article which explains why continual loser Shrum is constantly in demand by Dem presidential candidates?
Can someone point me to an article which explains why continual loser Shrum is constantly in demand by Dem presidential candidates?
It wasn't wrong to nominate Kerry, not at all. The one thing I learned from following his campaign is that the man had a noble and genuine interest in serving the people. I don't care what anyone else says, his Vietnam history, two tours of duty and an obligation to speak out against the war that he thought was wrong showed amazing character from a young man. John Kerry isn't all that affable, but I do think he is a great man.
Someone recently asked me if there was a draft, how I would choose to dodge it. They were shocked when I said I wouldn't. For some reason I attribute that in part to John Kerry. He is a great American, at least in the sense of what I was taught a great American should be.
It wasn't wrong to nominate Kerry, not at all. The one thing I learned from following his campaign is that the man had a noble and genuine interest in serving the people. I don't care what anyone else says, his Vietnam history, two tours of duty and an obligation to speak out against the war that he thought was wrong showed amazing character from a young man. John Kerry isn't all that affable, but I do think he is a great man.
Someone recently asked me if there was a draft, how I would choose to dodge it. They were shocked when I said I wouldn't. For some reason I attribute that in part to John Kerry. He is a great American, at least in the sense of what I was taught a great American should be.
Amen! I'd like to see the whole concept of the DLC booted out of the Democratic party. They have been a very very destructive force. They haven't done one constructive thing for the party in years. They did their best to sabotage everything us riffraff tried to do while gladly stuffing our hard earned bucks into their own fat slimy pockets.
And the very day after the election, they scurried back into their little spider holes without a fare-the-well. Absolutely useless. And I include one of my Senators among that group.
Their idiotic strategies have been losers for years. Let's kick their asses.
Amen! I'd like to see the whole concept of the DLC booted out of the Democratic party. They have been a very very destructive force. They haven't done one constructive thing for the party in years. They did their best to sabotage everything us riffraff tried to do while gladly stuffing our hard earned bucks into their own fat slimy pockets.
And the very day after the election, they scurried back into their little spider holes without a fare-the-well. Absolutely useless. And I include one of my Senators among that group.
Their idiotic strategies have been losers for years. Let's kick their asses.
"caution over boldness"
http://www.theday.com/eng/web/ne...0F-
D4D532BAACCF
especially that last weekend, but possibly understandable in light of very interesting note that their polls showed Kerry victory
"caution over boldness"
http://www.theday.com/eng/web/ne...0F-
D4D532BAACCF
especially that last weekend, but possibly understandable in light of very interesting note that their polls showed Kerry victory
dieselcreek,
that wasn't my list, it was the entire Kerry campaign staff. 
i still like Donna Brazille though, is that wrong? i don't even know anymore.
dieselcreek,
that wasn't my list, it was the entire Kerry campaign staff. i still like Donna Brazille though, is that wrong? i don't even know anymore.
Gee, what do we think will happen if investigator Kery reveals that Ohio and/or Florida were stolen? How fast will they be back at his side?
I'm not saying it's likely, mind you, but it's an entertaining scenario.
Gee, what do we think will happen if investigator Kery reveals that Ohio and/or Florida were stolen? How fast will they be back at his side?
I'm not saying it's likely, mind you, but it's an entertaining scenario.
If you're making a list of those in the party to fire, please don't forget the totally spineless DNC head, Terry McA... Got an email from the DNC wanting to have some input for the direction of the DNC and my first suggestion was to fire Mr. McA., and get someone with a backbone. Have read a few rumors about Howard Dean taking over as head of DNC, sure couldn't hurt....
If you're making a list of those in the party to fire, please don't forget the totally spineless DNC head, Terry McA... Got an email from the DNC wanting to have some input for the direction of the DNC and my first suggestion was to fire Mr. McA., and get someone with a backbone. Have read a few rumors about Howard Dean taking over as head of DNC, sure couldn't hurt....
OT movie note--is anyone watching Gabriel Over the White House (1933) on TCM? It's about a lazy cynical preznit who literally gets religion, fores his cabinet, sends tanks into cities to blast gangsters and then tells off the rest of the world. He's just been yelling at the French to pay their debts, and then ordered the bombing of the US navy to demonstrate to skeptical foreign leaders the the awesome US Air Force has rendered their battleships obsolete. The foreigners are flipping out in 5 languages. Great stuff.
OT movie note--is anyone watching Gabriel Over the White House (1933) on TCM? It's about a lazy cynical preznit who literally gets religion, fores his cabinet, sends tanks into cities to blast gangsters and then tells off the rest of the world. He's just been yelling at the French to pay their debts, and then ordered the bombing of the US navy to demonstrate to skeptical foreign leaders the the awesome US Air Force has rendered their battleships obsolete. The foreigners are flipping out in 5 languages. Great stuff.
Anyone who thinks Dems should run out and start throwing other Dems overboard, should just sit down, take a deep breath and relax. The best electoral weapon Dems have is a silly, unmotivated, lame duck incumbent who thinks he has a mandate.
Besides, Dems do stand for something, something quite different than Republicans. Even if it's not clear to Dems, it's clear to all our red-state brethren who allegedly showed up to vote in record numbers.
Anyone who thinks Dems should run out and start throwing other Dems overboard, should just sit down, take a deep breath and relax. The best electoral weapon Dems have is a silly, unmotivated, lame duck incumbent who thinks he has a mandate.
Besides, Dems do stand for something, something quite different than Republicans. Even if it's not clear to Dems, it's clear to all our red-state brethren who allegedly showed up to vote in record numbers.
The one bright spot was how we did in state legislature races and in places like the Montana gov race where a homegrown candidate ran a smart homegrown campaign.
And it wasn't the self-satisfied Washington insiders who won those battles. It was the grassroots who were inspired to take up local activism.
We DO have a great chance here to build a strong bottom-up movement. But we won't get there by listening to the losers from this year--the rich consultant class. We need to hear from the winners--the base, those who fought locally and won. And from the successful and inspiring mobilization of contributors and activists on those silly blogs and other places on the Internets.
The one bright spot was how we did in state legislature races and in places like the Montana gov race where a homegrown candidate ran a smart homegrown campaign.
And it wasn't the self-satisfied Washington insiders who won those battles. It was the grassroots who were inspired to take up local activism.
We DO have a great chance here to build a strong bottom-up movement. But we won't get there by listening to the losers from this year--the rich consultant class. We need to hear from the winners--the base, those who fought locally and won. And from the successful and inspiring mobilization of contributors and activists on those silly blogs and other places on the Internets.
Where is Kerry?
Where is Kerry?
Why have you abandon us in our hour of need?
Why have you abandon us in our hour of need?
dieselcreek,
that wasn't my list, it was the entire Kerry campaign staff. i still like Donna Brazille though, is that wrong? i don't even know anymore.
jps
Donna Brazile is a committed Democrat who has a lot of talent and she's a great asset, but she's way, way too appeasing to be the driving force needed to head the DNC.
Not a good choice to run the DNC, IMHO.
dieselcreek,
that wasn't my list, it was the entire Kerry campaign staff. i still like Donna Brazille though, is that wrong? i don't even know anymore.
jps
Donna Brazile is a committed Democrat who has a lot of talent and she's a great asset, but she's way, way too appeasing to be the driving force needed to head the DNC.
Not a good choice to run the DNC, IMHO.
Jesus,
He's home, but is lawyers are apparently all over Ohio.
http://
www.moderateindependent.c...i21election.htm
Jesus,
He's home, but is lawyers are apparently all over Ohio.
http://
www.moderateindependent.c...i21election.htm
Why worry about Kerry when we have Joe-Mentum--Tommorrow on FOX!
ugh.
Why worry about Kerry when we have Joe-Mentum--Tommorrow on FOX!
ugh.
Why have you abandon us in our hour of need?
Jesus
Jesus, he's in the Senate, he's coming back and he's there til 2008. He's in a position to be Shrubbie's worst nightmare. Think I'm wrong? How many US Senators have proven they have the support of half the American electorate?
Why have you abandon us in our hour of need?
Jesus
Jesus, he's in the Senate, he's coming back and he's there til 2008. He's in a position to be Shrubbie's worst nightmare. Think I'm wrong? How many US Senators have proven they have the support of half the American electorate?
Did the Christian Conservatives oreder the killing of Arafat?
Did the Christian Conservatives oreder the killing of Arafat?
shrum, mcauliffe, clinton, clinton, shumer
to name but a few.
exorcise them now.
the biggest mistake made by kerry was welcoming clinton to join his campaign...that brought out all the anti-clintons to vote against him.
what is so amazing is how the dnc, dlc, kerry failed to know how much clinton was reviled.
by right and left. as an anti-fascist, i hated his fucking guts. i watched him pretend to be a democrat as he pursued repfascist objectives.
you want to save the democratic party, publicly and strenuously repudiate the clintons.
in a very real sense, bill clinton is george bush. they are the same fascists. both owned and operated by the rockies.
and yes, as p said, if you fail to understand the past, and do something about it, it will jump your bones again.
sic semper tyrannis.
shrum, mcauliffe, clinton, clinton, shumer
to name but a few.
exorcise them now.
the biggest mistake made by kerry was welcoming clinton to join his campaign...that brought out all the anti-clintons to vote against him.
what is so amazing is how the dnc, dlc, kerry failed to know how much clinton was reviled.
by right and left. as an anti-fascist, i hated his fucking guts. i watched him pretend to be a democrat as he pursued repfascist objectives.
you want to save the democratic party, publicly and strenuously repudiate the clintons.
in a very real sense, bill clinton is george bush. they are the same fascists. both owned and operated by the rockies.
and yes, as p said, if you fail to understand the past, and do something about it, it will jump your bones again.
sic semper tyrannis.
Dear me. Do people really think that Dean would have survived the Rove-storm, had he made it through the primaries? That Governor Civil Unions wouldn't have become Governor Gay Marriage?
When Kerry looked out of it, before the big Iowa push, plenty of people were regretful about the fact that one of the smartest, most informed elected Dems of his generation -- especially with regard to foreign policy -- was going to miss out. And he didn't miss out. He came through in the primaries. And we got to see, in the debates, how good a President he would be.
Sometimes the best man loses, especially in American politics, where, as Mencken noted, it pays not to overestimate the capacity of the electorate.
Millions of voters chose to put their future, and the future of their children, in the hands of the worst president in living memory. Gladly, almost gleefully. Does that mean the Dems should be looking for its own idiot-savant for 2008? I fucking well hope not.
It's a tragedy of American politics, not seen very often elsewhere, that losing a presidential election by a squeak (or a Supreme Court ruling) is perceived as a political death-knell. In a parliamentary system, or even a different presidential system, Al Gore would have been kicking verbal shit out of Bush a week after the inauguration. Instead he was expected to vanish; and it seems as if people now wish that John Kerry could be airbrushed from history.
If, as Josh and others have suggested, Bush wants to treat Congress as a parliament, then it's up to Kerry to take on the role of Leader of the Loyal Opposition, and up to the Dems to support him. Because the last thing we need is the kind of silence that every fucking criminal GOPwit will take as an invitation to send this country further down the shitter.
For fuck's sake, get a grip.
Dear me. Do people really think that Dean would have survived the Rove-storm, had he made it through the primaries? That Governor Civil Unions wouldn't have become Governor Gay Marriage?
When Kerry looked out of it, before the big Iowa push, plenty of people were regretful about the fact that one of the smartest, most informed elected Dems of his generation -- especially with regard to foreign policy -- was going to miss out. And he didn't miss out. He came through in the primaries. And we got to see, in the debates, how good a President he would be.
Sometimes the best man loses, especially in American politics, where, as Mencken noted, it pays not to overestimate the capacity of the electorate.
Millions of voters chose to put their future, and the future of their children, in the hands of the worst president in living memory. Gladly, almost gleefully. Does that mean the Dems should be looking for its own idiot-savant for 2008? I fucking well hope not.
It's a tragedy of American politics, not seen very often elsewhere, that losing a presidential election by a squeak (or a Supreme Court ruling) is perceived as a political death-knell. In a parliamentary system, or even a different presidential system, Al Gore would have been kicking verbal shit out of Bush a week after the inauguration. Instead he was expected to vanish; and it seems as if people now wish that John Kerry could be airbrushed from history.
If, as Josh and others have suggested, Bush wants to treat Congress as a parliament, then it's up to Kerry to take on the role of Leader of the Loyal Opposition, and up to the Dems to support him. Because the last thing we need is the kind of silence that every fucking criminal GOPwit will take as an invitation to send this country further down the shitter.
For fuck's sake, get a grip.
kerry was not wrong. the dnc is not all wrong...we have a tough battle to fight here...it is the brainwashing of people who do not want to think for themselves. it is the fear of burning in hell that we must fight. it is the greed we must fight. these people (59%) really are not capable or nor do they want to be capable of thinking for themselves. they want to know what to wear, where to go, what to do with their careers, what to eat, where to live, what music to listen to, and who to vote for. instead of prompting these people to come to those decisions on thier own they found a party that would do it for them and at the same time make them feel like they were right(ious.
kerry was not wrong. the dnc is not all wrong...we have a tough battle to fight here...it is the brainwashing of people who do not want to think for themselves. it is the fear of burning in hell that we must fight. it is the greed we must fight. these people (59%) really are not capable or nor do they want to be capable of thinking for themselves. they want to know what to wear, where to go, what to do with their careers, what to eat, where to live, what music to listen to, and who to vote for. instead of prompting these people to come to those decisions on thier own they found a party that would do it for them and at the same time make them feel like they were right(ious.
The only criticism I have of how Kerry ran his campaign was the failure to provide donuts in the morning and break out a bottle of gin every evening for the press whores.
The whores get snippy if you don't feed and stroke them and whoever was in charge of that department was just plain incompetent.
And it was incompetent not to wine and dine the whores every night at the convention. A candidate gets ugly press if vacuous creatures like Pickler, Nagourney, Bumiller, Lindlaw and the rest don't get fawned over and stroked.
The only criticism I have of how Kerry ran his campaign was the failure to provide donuts in the morning and break out a bottle of gin every evening for the press whores.
The whores get snippy if you don't feed and stroke them and whoever was in charge of that department was just plain incompetent.
And it was incompetent not to wine and dine the whores every night at the convention. A candidate gets ugly press if vacuous creatures like Pickler, Nagourney, Bumiller, Lindlaw and the rest don't get fawned over and stroked.
I'm for cleaning house. getting a fresh start. I know it's drastic, but hey, drastic times...
I'm for cleaning house. getting a fresh start. I know it's drastic, but hey, drastic times...
Ah yes, the way to heal the Dem party is to have both Democratic Senators from the fine state of NY resign. Great advice, dude.
Ah yes, the way to heal the Dem party is to have both Democratic Senators from the fine state of NY resign. Great advice, dude.
Did the Christian Conservatives oreder the killing of Arafat?
Jesus
No, they're too concerned with what two gay guys named "Adam" and "Steve" in San Francisco are doing in their bedroom, and they don't want to be distracted from those thoughts, thank you.
Did the Christian Conservatives oreder the killing of Arafat?
Jesus
No, they're too concerned with what two gay guys named "Adam" and "Steve" in San Francisco are doing in their bedroom, and they don't want to be distracted from those thoughts, thank you.
Credibility is fragile. Josh Marshall lost it for me. He can opine all he wants. He's smart, articulate, etc... But he got the war wrong. Period.
I, for one, can't put a lot of heft behind theories until all the votes are counted.
It is the basis of democracy.
There weren't enough fucking machines in our precincts. Talk about elites. People like Josh who won't dirty their hands to talk about the nitty gritty of democracy can go, erm, take a hike.
If Ohio had been a third world country, they wouldn't have qualified for international aid.
To build theories on this stink, is like building skyscrapers on sand. And I know that this is all quite politically incorrect, and, well, "shrill," and we're supposed to be looking ahead, and "correcting mistakes."
But there's a statistician who says that the variance in the exit polls vs. results is, basically, impossible.
Last I checked, statistics professors make their living on analysing "the reality based community," and rendering judgement.
http://truthout.org/
unexplainede...nedexitpoll.pdf
Credibility is fragile. Josh Marshall lost it for me. He can opine all he wants. He's smart, articulate, etc... But he got the war wrong. Period.
I, for one, can't put a lot of heft behind theories until all the votes are counted.
It is the basis of democracy.
There weren't enough fucking machines in our precincts. Talk about elites. People like Josh who won't dirty their hands to talk about the nitty gritty of democracy can go, erm, take a hike.
If Ohio had been a third world country, they wouldn't have qualified for international aid.
To build theories on this stink, is like building skyscrapers on sand. And I know that this is all quite politically incorrect, and, well, "shrill," and we're supposed to be looking ahead, and "correcting mistakes."
But there's a statistician who says that the variance in the exit polls vs. results is, basically, impossible.
Last I checked, statistics professors make their living on analysing "the reality based community," and rendering judgement.
http://truthout.org/
unexplainede...nedexitpoll.pdf
Phredd,
You forgot to add Margaret Carlson to your list. She's the one, after all, who made a point of publicly complaining about how bad Gore's food was compared to Dubya's in 2000. What a liberal crusader she is.
Phredd,
You forgot to add Margaret Carlson to your list. She's the one, after all, who made a point of publicly complaining about how bad Gore's food was compared to Dubya's in 2000. What a liberal crusader she is.
Why have you abandon us in our hour of need?
-Jesus
Actually, JC, I received a thank you letter from JFK hisself just yesterday. Course it was accompanied by a self-addressed envelope......
Why have you abandon us in our hour of need?
-Jesus
Actually, JC, I received a thank you letter from JFK hisself just yesterday. Course it was accompanied by a self-addressed envelope......
I'm so fucking sick and tired of people quoting Mencken. When did we become the defacto party of role players?
I'm so fucking sick and tired of people quoting Mencken. When did we become the defacto party of role players?
Not to get into a bitchfest about Kerry, but WTF?!? Can his advisors not see that windsurfing could be a bad PR move?
For Christ sake, when the nation is in trouble and needs new leadership and the middle class is really feeling the pinch, what's the first thing that pops into your head? Run to the liberal stronghold in the northeast,windsurf and pilot the killer cruiseship of a boat around the harbor?
Good GOD can the dems EVER hold a poker face?
Not to get into a bitchfest about Kerry, but WTF?!? Can his advisors not see that windsurfing could be a bad PR move?
For Christ sake, when the nation is in trouble and needs new leadership and the middle class is really feeling the pinch, what's the first thing that pops into your head? Run to the liberal stronghold in the northeast,windsurf and pilot the killer cruiseship of a boat around the harbor?
Good GOD can the dems EVER hold a poker face?
And one move I'd like to see is for Joe fucking Biden to hand over his role as ranking member on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee to John Kerry.
I want Kerry up there as the face of the Democrats, dragging the fucks from State and the NSC into hearings on a regular basis.
Joe Biden: thanks, but no thanks. Your ego has landed. Give it up.
And one move I'd like to see is for Joe fucking Biden to hand over his role as ranking member on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee to John Kerry.
I want Kerry up there as the face of the Democrats, dragging the fucks from State and the NSC into hearings on a regular basis.
Joe Biden: thanks, but no thanks. Your ego has landed. Give it up.
You progressives should learn a thing or two about the Liberals in Canada. They have had a very successful party, holding power something like 80% of the time, and it' s not just because Canada has more progressives, it's also because they have been very good at keeping thei r internal rivalries for when they are in power, not when they are in opposition.
You progressives should learn a thing or two about the Liberals in Canada. They have had a very successful party, holding power something like 80% of the time, and it' s not just because Canada has more progressives, it's also because they have been very good at keeping thei r internal rivalries for when they are in power, not when they are in opposition.
Carville, Shrum, etc, etc...
buh......bye...
Carville, Shrum, etc, etc...
buh......bye...
I'm so fucking sick and tired of people quoting Mencken. When did we become the defacto party of role players?
Anonymous
"Freedom of the press belongs to those who own one"
I'm so fucking sick and tired of people quoting Mencken. When did we become the defacto party of role players?
Anonymous
"Freedom of the press belongs to those who own one"
Daily Kos, Bill Clinton and Simon Rosenberg.
Daily Kos, Bill Clinton and Simon Rosenberg.
Minority Leader Reid? anti-abortion, cant speak, wtf...
Minority Leader Reid? anti-abortion, cant speak, wtf...
I don't think anyone has called for Kerry to leave. This is solely about the strategists and the "players." Candidates are race horses, people persons, etc. Kerry is a good one and will stick around to be sure. The people who need to go are the ones trying to score jobs as talking heads on cable news until the next cycle.
I don't think anyone has called for Kerry to leave. This is solely about the strategists and the "players." Candidates are race horses, people persons, etc. Kerry is a good one and will stick around to be sure. The people who need to go are the ones trying to score jobs as talking heads on cable news until the next cycle.
did anybody read rosenbergs latest piece about dean? was that whiny or was that me?
did anybody read rosenbergs latest piece about dean? was that whiny or was that me?
I'm so fucking sick and tired of people quoting Mencken.
Well, we're not going to be quoting you.
The Daily Mirror got it right. As did Green Day:
Don't wanna be an American idiot.
One nation controlled by the media.
Information age of hysteria.
It's calling out to idiot America.
Idiot America spoke, in a clear monosyllable.
I'm so fucking sick and tired of people quoting Mencken.
Well, we're not going to be quoting you.
The Daily Mirror got it right. As did Green Day:
Don't wanna be an American idiot.
One nation controlled by the media.
Information age of hysteria.
It's calling out to idiot America.
Idiot America spoke, in a clear monosyllable.
How many US Senators have proven they have the support of half the American electorate?
Stinky
Heh heh heh. I like the sound of that. That is certainly a SENATOR with a mandate, isn't it?
Heh heh.
How many US Senators have proven they have the support of half the American electorate?
Stinky
Heh heh heh. I like the sound of that. That is certainly a SENATOR with a mandate, isn't it?
Heh heh.
It seems that alot of the kind of people that used to be considered organized labor are now not organized and alot of them red-necked Bush voters. That should change. The current crew doesn't have a clue how to relate to these kind of people and that's got to change.
It seems that alot of the kind of people that used to be considered organized labor are now not organized and alot of them red-necked Bush voters. That should change. The current crew doesn't have a clue how to relate to these kind of people and that's got to change.
So...is this anything like the last time Atrios and Josh spoke vaguely about something big coming down the pipe (which, that time, turned out to be an apparent Bush victory we were then instructed to get over)? And if Kerry is all about DLC-style pissing on progressives what are the "disloyal" elements?! Are you finally expelling Zell, is that it? Can you even expel people?
Also: find and watch Gabriel Over the White House (just on TCM). Incredible. Has to be seen to be believed--William Randolph Hearst's horribly badly written and acted pitch for dictatorship.
So...is this anything like the last time Atrios and Josh spoke vaguely about something big coming down the pipe (which, that time, turned out to be an apparent Bush victory we were then instructed to get over)? And if Kerry is all about DLC-style pissing on progressives what are the "disloyal" elements?! Are you finally expelling Zell, is that it? Can you even expel people?
Also: find and watch Gabriel Over the White House (just on TCM). Incredible. Has to be seen to be believed--William Randolph Hearst's horribly badly written and acted pitch for dictatorship.
Too many to name, Jim E. Too many to name.
On topic sort of: the NYT makes another attempt to rehabilitate its big C Credibility
BWAAAAA HAAAAA HAAAAAA HAAAAAA !!!!!!
Chortle !!! Guffaw !!!!!!!!!
An internal committee to restore their credibility. That's rich !!!!!!
-
Too many to name, Jim E. Too many to name.
On topic sort of: the NYT makes another attempt to rehabilitate its big C Credibility
BWAAAAA HAAAAA HAAAAAA HAAAAAA !!!!!!
Chortle !!! Guffaw !!!!!!!!!
An internal committee to restore their credibility. That's rich !!!!!!
-
John Kerry is not the effective leader of the Democratic Party, because it has no leader.
The Democratic Party has no leader because it is not a party.
Until the Democratic Party actually becomes a party, it will win no elections. Until the Democratic Party actually has a leader, it will have no presidents.
If John Kerry were the leader of the Democratic Party, as someone in the position of just having run for the presidency ought to be, then there would be none of this talk of "poor candidate" doing the rounds. There would only be talk of the lousy job that the actual president is doing.
The watchwords of the future should be: permanent organisation, permanent campaigning, permanent message, permanent thinking, permanent mobilisation, permanent presence, permanent attitood, permanent readiness to assume governance. None of this cyclical, "we'll win next time" crap. "Next time" is tomorrow, "next time" is tonight, "next time" is now.
John Kerry is not the effective leader of the Democratic Party, because it has no leader.
The Democratic Party has no leader because it is not a party.
Until the Democratic Party actually becomes a party, it will win no elections. Until the Democratic Party actually has a leader, it will have no presidents.
If John Kerry were the leader of the Democratic Party, as someone in the position of just having run for the presidency ought to be, then there would be none of this talk of "poor candidate" doing the rounds. There would only be talk of the lousy job that the actual president is doing.
The watchwords of the future should be: permanent organisation, permanent campaigning, permanent message, permanent thinking, permanent mobilisation, permanent presence, permanent attitood, permanent readiness to assume governance. None of this cyclical, "we'll win next time" crap. "Next time" is tomorrow, "next time" is tonight, "next time" is now.
i am seeing a real problem that they (mostly rove) have put us in. as we have seen with this admin it is all about looks...kerry is a goddamn decorated vet who not only volunteered to go but then exercised his RIGHT to speak out about what he saw and did...he has been in PUBLIC SERVICE for twenty-plus years...albeit that could spell corruption but it did not. i have much much respect for this man and i think it is sad that we now HAVE to play into their immage game...immage being one of my most hated words. it spells hypocrisy. i say KERRY '08...show them that we still feel the same.
i am seeing a real problem that they (mostly rove) have put us in. as we have seen with this admin it is all about looks...kerry is a goddamn decorated vet who not only volunteered to go but then exercised his RIGHT to speak out about what he saw and did...he has been in PUBLIC SERVICE for twenty-plus years...albeit that could spell corruption but it did not. i have much much respect for this man and i think it is sad that we now HAVE to play into their immage game...immage being one of my most hated words. it spells hypocrisy. i say KERRY '08...show them that we still feel the same.
Not to get into a bitchfest about Kerry, but WTF?!? Can his advisors not see that windsurfing could be a bad PR move?
Maybe he shoulda snorted pounds of blow, been a raging alcoholic, gone AWOL and ran a few failed businesses, screwed and disappointed numerous people but redeemed himself after finding Jesus?
Not to get into a bitchfest about Kerry, but WTF?!? Can his advisors not see that windsurfing could be a bad PR move?
Maybe he shoulda snorted pounds of blow, been a raging alcoholic, gone AWOL and ran a few failed businesses, screwed and disappointed numerous people but redeemed himself after finding Jesus?
Please add the odious Stan Greenberg to the list
These people make Dick Morris look principled, since Morris at least puts his name to it and savages the succesful candidates as well as the losers.
Please add the odious Stan Greenberg to the list
These people make Dick Morris look principled, since Morris at least puts his name to it and savages the succesful candidates as well as the losers.
You DON'T dangle meat in front of a tiger!!
Just like you don't try to save a tiger in the name of Jesus.
You DON'T dangle meat in front of a tiger!!
Just like you don't try to save a tiger in the name of Jesus.
bring back sid vicious bluementhol
bring back sid vicious bluementhol
Heh heh heh. I like the sound of that. That is certainly a SENATOR with a mandate, isn't it?
Heh heh.
MisterX
Damn straight, Mr. X. John Fucking Kerry is the most popular Senator in America.
He can be a major pain in Bush's ass for the next four years like no one else can.
And half of the American voters in 50 states have got his back.
Heh heh heh. I like the sound of that. That is certainly a SENATOR with a mandate, isn't it?
Heh heh.
MisterX
Damn straight, Mr. X. John Fucking Kerry is the most popular Senator in America.
He can be a major pain in Bush's ass for the next four years like no one else can.
And half of the American voters in 50 states have got his back.
Shrum's last good political deed was writing Teddy Kennedy's concession speech in '80.
Carville I don't mind so much. I like his books, and I like the fact that he scared the Rethugs to the point that they were muttering "boycott, boycott" when he took over Crossfire.
Anybody who upsets the Rethugs that much is okay by me.
Same as with the Big Dog.
Shrum's last good political deed was writing Teddy Kennedy's concession speech in '80.
Carville I don't mind so much. I like his books, and I like the fact that he scared the Rethugs to the point that they were muttering "boycott, boycott" when he took over Crossfire.
Anybody who upsets the Rethugs that much is okay by me.
Same as with the Big Dog.
The democrats don't have a party bla bla bla....
Please tell us more of your experience with the PARTY. Are you a member of your local one?
This shit will get us nowhere. I am getting a little tired of all these inraged calls for purges. Sounds like Soviet or Chinese shit. Change of leadership and direction is needed and a radical departure from the current status quo is needeed for sure but screaming feces throwing red faced pounding on the table doesn't do it for me. Just sayin.
The democrats don't have a party bla bla bla....
Please tell us more of your experience with the PARTY. Are you a member of your local one?
This shit will get us nowhere. I am getting a little tired of all these inraged calls for purges. Sounds like Soviet or Chinese shit. Change of leadership and direction is needed and a radical departure from the current status quo is needeed for sure but screaming feces throwing red faced pounding on the table doesn't do it for me. Just sayin.
OT:
As part of sweeping "economic restructuring" implemented by the Bush Administration in Iraq, Iraqi farmers will no longer be permitted to save their seeds. Instead, they will be forced to buy seeds from US corporations -- including seeds the Iraqis themselves developed over hundreds of years. That is because in recent years, transnational corporations have patented and now own many seed varieties originated or developed by indigenous peoples. In a short time, Iraq will be living under the new American credo: Pay Monsanto, or starve.
OT:
As part of sweeping "economic restructuring" implemented by the Bush Administration in Iraq, Iraqi farmers will no longer be permitted to save their seeds. Instead, they will be forced to buy seeds from US corporations -- including seeds the Iraqis themselves developed over hundreds of years. That is because in recent years, transnational corporations have patented and now own many seed varieties originated or developed by indigenous peoples. In a short time, Iraq will be living under the new American credo: Pay Monsanto, or starve.
anon in nc,
Idiot America spoke, in a clear monosyllable.
I think it was more of a grunt....
anon in nc,
Idiot America spoke, in a clear monosyllable.
I think it was more of a grunt....
Please tell us more of your experience with the PARTY. Are you a member of your local one?
Gawd. I can tell you that the un-joined-upness of county, state and national Democratic party orgs is not helping. Here in WNC, the turf wars and sheer lack of co-ordination between Dem groups, local Kerry-Edwards groups, and local candidate committees was fucking pathological at times. I've seen how the Labour party organises in Britain, and as much as I dislike Blair, he ensured that from the top down, it runs in the same direction, often in spite of individual MPs.
None of this cyclical, "we'll win next time" crap. "Next time" is tomorrow, "next time" is tonight, "next time" is now.
Exactly. It's time for the Dem hierarchy to say 'fuck it', and work as if it were a parliamentary opposition. Shadow cabinet, de facto leader, national perspective.
Please tell us more of your experience with the PARTY. Are you a member of your local one?
Gawd. I can tell you that the un-joined-upness of county, state and national Democratic party orgs is not helping. Here in WNC, the turf wars and sheer lack of co-ordination between Dem groups, local Kerry-Edwards groups, and local candidate committees was fucking pathological at times. I've seen how the Labour party organises in Britain, and as much as I dislike Blair, he ensured that from the top down, it runs in the same direction, often in spite of individual MPs.
None of this cyclical, "we'll win next time" crap. "Next time" is tomorrow, "next time" is tonight, "next time" is now.
Exactly. It's time for the Dem hierarchy to say 'fuck it', and work as if it were a parliamentary opposition. Shadow cabinet, de facto leader, national perspective.
Hear hear, Atrios. Great post. And jps - what you said about Kerry was beautiful. I agree with Hertzberg in the New Yorker that kerry "wore well" -- it took me a while to get over my Deaniac disappointment but then I turned around and Kerry was standing up for things I believed in, turning on huge crowds of voters around the country, getting the latest generation of supposedly apathetic youngsters so fired up that you had high school kids in red states getting spit at in the hallways for wesaring Kerry/Edwardss buttons and still THEY WOULD NOT TAKE THEM OFF. And they got out there and knocked on doors and did visibility and anything else they could think of to get the country to accept change. That's a hell of a legacy and I for one hope that Kerry IS the one to build on it -- for the next four years AND in 2008.
McAuliffe, though -- he can go. And Shrum. And Carville, who is so obsessed with the fucking economy, stupid, that he can't see a 900-pound UNWINNABLE WAR when it is staring him in the face.....
Hear hear, Atrios. Great post. And jps - what you said about Kerry was beautiful. I agree with Hertzberg in the New Yorker that kerry "wore well" -- it took me a while to get over my Deaniac disappointment but then I turned around and Kerry was standing up for things I believed in, turning on huge crowds of voters around the country, getting the latest generation of supposedly apathetic youngsters so fired up that you had high school kids in red states getting spit at in the hallways for wesaring Kerry/Edwardss buttons and still THEY WOULD NOT TAKE THEM OFF. And they got out there and knocked on doors and did visibility and anything else they could think of to get the country to accept change. That's a hell of a legacy and I for one hope that Kerry IS the one to build on it -- for the next four years AND in 2008.
McAuliffe, though -- he can go. And Shrum. And Carville, who is so obsessed with the fucking economy, stupid, that he can't see a 900-pound UNWINNABLE WAR when it is staring him in the face.....
I've seen a lot of complaining and bitching and I've done a fair bit of both myself, regarding the direction of the dems.
The rethugs have their platform, and it's pretty well known. It's been suggested that the Dems need to form one. I humbly offer a simple one: The Fairness Party. For instance: Company that treat their domestic employees well would recieve bettter tax incentives than those that outsourced. The nation's policies towards the Isreali's and the Palestinians wouldn't blatantly favour one over the other. Money for education and roads would be spent where it was most needed, rather than where the best lobbying took place. In fact, we'll try to run all the lobbyists out of DC.
Maybe it's too simple. But then again, it works for Dumbya.
I've seen a lot of complaining and bitching and I've done a fair bit of both myself, regarding the direction of the dems.
The rethugs have their platform, and it's pretty well known. It's been suggested that the Dems need to form one. I humbly offer a simple one: The Fairness Party. For instance: Company that treat their domestic employees well would recieve bettter tax incentives than those that outsourced. The nation's policies towards the Isreali's and the Palestinians wouldn't blatantly favour one over the other. Money for education and roads would be spent where it was most needed, rather than where the best lobbying took place. In fact, we'll try to run all the lobbyists out of DC.
Maybe it's too simple. But then again, it works for Dumbya.
And half of the American voters in 50 states have got his back.
Stinky
You are absolutely right, my fetid friend!
*sniff* *sniff*
What's that aroma? Smells like a new meme!
And half of the American voters in 50 states have got his back.
Stinky
You are absolutely right, my fetid friend!
*sniff* *sniff*
What's that aroma? Smells like a new meme!
C'mon gumchewer. Who's getting carried away with rhetoric? Soviet and Chinese style purges. Jeeeeez. Screaming feces throwing. Get a grip!
It is the truth that the DLC was an extremely destructive force throughout the campaign season, being more interested in saving their own ass than in helping the party. To that end they leaked destructive stories to the press and set their underground dogs on the cadidaes.
I don't see anything wrong with calling for their ouster from leadership positions where they make decisions on where to place MY MONEY. And you call that a soviet-style purge. Please!
C'mon gumchewer. Who's getting carried away with rhetoric? Soviet and Chinese style purges. Jeeeeez. Screaming feces throwing. Get a grip!
It is the truth that the DLC was an extremely destructive force throughout the campaign season, being more interested in saving their own ass than in helping the party. To that end they leaked destructive stories to the press and set their underground dogs on the cadidaes.
I don't see anything wrong with calling for their ouster from leadership positions where they make decisions on where to place MY MONEY. And you call that a soviet-style purge. Please!
We have to pry corp. lobbying power, which at one time was called bribery, away from these giants.
Ending corporate personhood would be a good thing. It's a states rights issue, but we can certainly help it along.
We have to pry corp. lobbying power, which at one time was called bribery, away from these giants.
Ending corporate personhood would be a good thing. It's a states rights issue, but we can certainly help it along.
I agree with mapanstula to a point tabout organization and the time is now etc. but I disagree that John Kerry does not hold some type of de facto leadership position in the Senate.
There also seems to be a bit of confusion also in the above posts between the "DNC" (Democratic National Committee) and the "DLC" (Democratic Leadership Committee). I'm all in favor of purging the backstabbers, but let's not confuse that with honest effort in support of the second place vote getter. Given the tendency of all of us to engage in the proverbial circular firing squads, it would be helpful to avoid raining fire on innocent bystanders.
I agree with mapanstula to a point tabout organization and the time is now etc. but I disagree that John Kerry does not hold some type of de facto leadership position in the Senate.
There also seems to be a bit of confusion also in the above posts between the "DNC" (Democratic National Committee) and the "DLC" (Democratic Leadership Committee). I'm all in favor of purging the backstabbers, but let's not confuse that with honest effort in support of the second place vote getter. Given the tendency of all of us to engage in the proverbial circular firing squads, it would be helpful to avoid raining fire on innocent bystanders.
The one bright spot was how we did in state legislature races and in places like the Montana gov race where a homegrown candidate ran a smart homegrown campaign.
Ah, Theri, this is one of the big bright spots.
Here in Texas, we had two of our meanest, GOP state legislators (Heflin and Mercer) get a taste of what re-districting might really mean. THE biggest story in TX politics right now is Heflin's loss, by a mere 31 votes. Still, it was a district in Houston, and only about 42% Dem. Heflin was also the second most powerful legislator, since he was on the House Appropriations committee, and he lost to a newbie. Amazing!
Now the GOP twits are sulking. They want recounts (sob sob), which just makes them look like sore losers (sound familiar???). It's widely reported that Heflin might contest the election. This is a lot more involved than a recount. Under Texas law, it could require a whole new election. Given the setup of our legislature, he could get his wish, but it would more likely come back to bite him on the ass. Hard. I hope like hell that Heflin contests it and loses the respect of his district forever. It couldn't happen to a sorrier SOB. Well, Mercer is actually sorrier, and I hope he goes down in flames, too.
But your point of building a movement from the ground up is a good one. We need to stop relying on top-down solutions. They don't work for winning elections, long-term. We need to run smarter campaigns, too. Hubert Vo demonstrated that this is what we need to do to WIN.
The one bright spot was how we did in state legislature races and in places like the Montana gov race where a homegrown candidate ran a smart homegrown campaign.
Ah, Theri, this is one of the big bright spots.
Here in Texas, we had two of our meanest, GOP state legislators (Heflin and Mercer) get a taste of what re-districting might really mean. THE biggest story in TX politics right now is Heflin's loss, by a mere 31 votes. Still, it was a district in Houston, and only about 42% Dem. Heflin was also the second most powerful legislator, since he was on the House Appropriations committee, and he lost to a newbie. Amazing!
Now the GOP twits are sulking. They want recounts (sob sob), which just makes them look like sore losers (sound familiar???). It's widely reported that Heflin might contest the election. This is a lot more involved than a recount. Under Texas law, it could require a whole new election. Given the setup of our legislature, he could get his wish, but it would more likely come back to bite him on the ass. Hard. I hope like hell that Heflin contests it and loses the respect of his district forever. It couldn't happen to a sorrier SOB. Well, Mercer is actually sorrier, and I hope he goes down in flames, too.
But your point of building a movement from the ground up is a good one. We need to stop relying on top-down solutions. They don't work for winning elections, long-term. We need to run smarter campaigns, too. Hubert Vo demonstrated that this is what we need to do to WIN.
That's a hell of a legacy and I for one hope that Kerry IS the one to build on it -- for the next four years AND in 2008.
That's a no-brainer. Pelosi and Reid (gah), for all their apparent talents within Congress, can't serve as the public face of the Democrats. Look what happened from 2001-2, with Gore pushed into the shadows, and Gephardt and Daschle bending over for the Chimp.
That's why I say, fuck seniority and get Biden to take second stage to Kerry on the ForRel Committee. Dick Lugar has shown a degree of independence when it comes to Iraq and terrorism: I'm not convinced that he'd be impressed by another intake of neocon fucktards into State, Defense and the NSC.
And if Iraq produces, as it well might, its own John Kerry -- a decorated veteran who comes back and says 'enough is enough' -- I want Kerry up there asking the questions.
That's a hell of a legacy and I for one hope that Kerry IS the one to build on it -- for the next four years AND in 2008.
That's a no-brainer. Pelosi and Reid (gah), for all their apparent talents within Congress, can't serve as the public face of the Democrats. Look what happened from 2001-2, with Gore pushed into the shadows, and Gephardt and Daschle bending over for the Chimp.
That's why I say, fuck seniority and get Biden to take second stage to Kerry on the ForRel Committee. Dick Lugar has shown a degree of independence when it comes to Iraq and terrorism: I'm not convinced that he'd be impressed by another intake of neocon fucktards into State, Defense and the NSC.
And if Iraq produces, as it well might, its own John Kerry -- a decorated veteran who comes back and says 'enough is enough' -- I want Kerry up there asking the questions.
It is disturbingly fashionable to trash the honorable junior senator from Massachusett, but I for one still love him, Minnie-style.
It is disturbingly fashionable to trash the honorable junior senator from Massachusett, but I for one still love him, Minnie-style.
The democrats better nominate Kerry again. He is the ONLY democrat I will vote for.
The democrats better nominate Kerry again. He is the ONLY democrat I will vote for.
Gumchewer - if that was partly in response to my comment, a) don't get all ad hominem on me baby, b) don't get all hyper, and c) don't mistake a (small, off-hand) try at a constructive point for a toy-tossing rant. A purge, either of Kerry or of anyone else, is not the solution. What is needed are steps to make it attractive for individuals to actually consider themselves party members and to organise as such.
Gumchewer - if that was partly in response to my comment, a) don't get all ad hominem on me baby, b) don't get all hyper, and c) don't mistake a (small, off-hand) try at a constructive point for a toy-tossing rant. A purge, either of Kerry or of anyone else, is not the solution. What is needed are steps to make it attractive for individuals to actually consider themselves party members and to organise as such.
Oh--one thing I noticed that David Leibowitz did here in San Antonio to unseat an incumbent (District 117)...
He sent birthday cards to people in his potential district. He sent cards to people registering to vote for the first time congratulating them on deciding to take part in the process. He sent cards to people who always voted to thank them for their commitment to democracy. People loved this. It's a small thing, but it's the kind of thing, at the local level, that can really make a difference.
I dealt with a lot of this mail, since my postal station covers a big swath of that district, and I was kinda jealous that I didn't get anything at all from my rep. (sob)
Oh--one thing I noticed that David Leibowitz did here in San Antonio to unseat an incumbent (District 117)...
He sent birthday cards to people in his potential district. He sent cards to people registering to vote for the first time congratulating them on deciding to take part in the process. He sent cards to people who always voted to thank them for their commitment to democracy. People loved this. It's a small thing, but it's the kind of thing, at the local level, that can really make a difference.
I dealt with a lot of this mail, since my postal station covers a big swath of that district, and I was kinda jealous that I didn't get anything at all from my rep. (sob)
What the hell is the obsession with Kerry's windsurfing? He was running against Mr. 42% Vacation, yet he wasn't allowed to indulge in some activity he enjoys? Maybe he should have bought a fake ranch and cleared brush. Sheesh!
True, they don't windsurf in Kansas and Nebraska. They don't have any fucking oceans there, stupid. How about you ask someone from a Great Lakes state how effete windsurfing and other sports are.
I still like the good Dr. Dean. We need the fire he brought, and I hope he has a prominent role in the party. But Kerry won me over, too, and I voted for him with pride. I hope the two can work together to rebuild a viable Dem party.
And I agree, get rid of the deadweight among the DLC. Times are too critical to indulge backstabbers out for only for themselves.
As for coddling the press, I would rather have seen coffee and donuts handed out the those who stood in line for hours to vote at undermanned precints. Maybe something to be prepared for should similar fuck-ups happen again.
What the hell is the obsession with Kerry's windsurfing? He was running against Mr. 42% Vacation, yet he wasn't allowed to indulge in some activity he enjoys? Maybe he should have bought a fake ranch and cleared brush. Sheesh!
True, they don't windsurf in Kansas and Nebraska. They don't have any fucking oceans there, stupid. How about you ask someone from a Great Lakes state how effete windsurfing and other sports are.
I still like the good Dr. Dean. We need the fire he brought, and I hope he has a prominent role in the party. But Kerry won me over, too, and I voted for him with pride. I hope the two can work together to rebuild a viable Dem party.
And I agree, get rid of the deadweight among the DLC. Times are too critical to indulge backstabbers out for only for themselves.
As for coddling the press, I would rather have seen coffee and donuts handed out the those who stood in line for hours to vote at undermanned precints. Maybe something to be prepared for should similar fuck-ups happen again.
I had been wondering why people (including me) were treating a narrow 51-48 loss like it was the end of the world. Then I realized that it was as if the Boston Red Sox had lost to the Texas A&M college team by one run. It's only a huge loss because it shouldn't have been close in the first place.
I had been wondering why people (including me) were treating a narrow 51-48 loss like it was the end of the world. Then I realized that it was as if the Boston Red Sox had lost to the Texas A&M college team by one run. It's only a huge loss because it shouldn't have been close in the first place.
Josh's reference to Applebee's suggests that he did have a specific person in mind:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6453647/
One veteran Democratic strategist, Clinton White House political director Doug Sosnik, sums up the answer in one word: Applebee’s.
“The leadership of our party has a cultural disconnect,” Sosnik said. “Our leaders — particularly Washington, D.C.-based — don’t really have the same life, day to day, as all those people out there in those red states. We don’t eat at the same restaurants. I don’t know how many politicians in town that are leaders of our party who voluntarily go to Applebee’s, unless it’s for work."
Josh's reference to Applebee's suggests that he did have a specific person in mind:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6453647/
One veteran Democratic strategist, Clinton White House political director Doug Sosnik, sums up the answer in one word: Applebee’s.
“The leadership of our party has a cultural disconnect,” Sosnik said. “Our leaders — particularly Washington, D.C.-based — don’t really have the same life, day to day, as all those people out there in those red states. We don’t eat at the same restaurants. I don’t know how many politicians in town that are leaders of our party who voluntarily go to Applebee’s, unless it’s for work."
What a smart direct mail piece. Hit em with the normal pamphleteer stuff, but every once in a while send out greeting cards without any message besides well wishes and possibly ask for comments.
What a smart direct mail piece. Hit em with the normal pamphleteer stuff, but every once in a while send out greeting cards without any message besides well wishes and possibly ask for comments.
"Kerry is the titular head of the party until someone is nominated in '08. I agree that nothing is served by trashing him, unless we're hell bent on convincing the other side that we were WRONG WRONG WRONG to have nominated him in the first place."
--But Kerry WAS the WRONG choice.
I know it's not in keeping with this thread to say so, but I KNEW this as early as the fall of 2002 when he voted to give Bush the authority to go to war in Iraq. Actually, I knew it even earlier, during the spring-summer of 2002 when he said that he would make American energy independence a central party of his program if he became president and then said that in order to accomplish this, he would push for higher fuel efficiency standards. It was bad enough that this wasn't a particularly visionary or bold move on his part. But, in the very next sentence, he took pains to add that by pushing for higher fuel efficiency standards, he IN NO WAY wanted to suggest that Americans should drive smaller vehicles.
It was at that moment that I thought, "My God, this guy wants his cake and wants to eat it too. He wants to ride the fence."
Contrary to his "I was a Viet Nam hero and then I came back and opposed the war" image, Kerry had and has NO POLITICAL BALLS. Always cautious, always afraid of offending someone.
As for his BCCI investigation, what major politician ended up in jail as a result of it? Please enlighten me, someone.
Fuck John Kerry. Fuck the Democratic Party.
They had a man in Howard Dean who had BALLS, who had backbone, who had vision, who had the courage to go against the inside-the-beltway and conventional wisdom "groupthink", and who had his finger on the pulse of the grass roots Democrats such that he could connect with them and they responded and were willing to go to war for him. But, the Democratic hierarchy, in conjunction with the corporate media, worked to take him out.
The Democratic Party is a corrupt and useless insitution. And John Kerry was a weak and overly cautious candidate.
I'm sorry that so many of you here invested so much in both of these entities that my words will be offensive to you, and you will therefore attack me. But this is the way I see it. And I've been seeing it this way for at least the past TWO YEARS.
Fire away at me at will.
"Kerry is the titular head of the party until someone is nominated in '08. I agree that nothing is served by trashing him, unless we're hell bent on convincing the other side that we were WRONG WRONG WRONG to have nominated him in the first place."
--But Kerry WAS the WRONG choice.
I know it's not in keeping with this thread to say so, but I KNEW this as early as the fall of 2002 when he voted to give Bush the authority to go to war in Iraq. Actually, I knew it even earlier, during the spring-summer of 2002 when he said that he would make American energy independence a central party of his program if he became president and then said that in order to accomplish this, he would push for higher fuel efficiency standards. It was bad enough that this wasn't a particularly visionary or bold move on his part. But, in the very next sentence, he took pains to add that by pushing for higher fuel efficiency standards, he IN NO WAY wanted to suggest that Americans should drive smaller vehicles.
It was at that moment that I thought, "My God, this guy wants his cake and wants to eat it too. He wants to ride the fence."
Contrary to his "I was a Viet Nam hero and then I came back and opposed the war" image, Kerry had and has NO POLITICAL BALLS. Always cautious, always afraid of offending someone.
As for his BCCI investigation, what major politician ended up in jail as a result of it? Please enlighten me, someone.
Fuck John Kerry. Fuck the Democratic Party.
They had a man in Howard Dean who had BALLS, who had backbone, who had vision, who had the courage to go against the inside-the-beltway and conventional wisdom "groupthink", and who had his finger on the pulse of the grass roots Democrats such that he could connect with them and they responded and were willing to go to war for him. But, the Democratic hierarchy, in conjunction with the corporate media, worked to take him out.
The Democratic Party is a corrupt and useless insitution. And John Kerry was a weak and overly cautious candidate.
I'm sorry that so many of you here invested so much in both of these entities that my words will be offensive to you, and you will therefore attack me. But this is the way I see it. And I've been seeing it this way for at least the past TWO YEARS.
Fire away at me at will.
Jonerik - I entirely agree that Kerry *ought* to take a leadership role. In fact, I think it would have been all-things-considered best for him to take over as Min. Sen. leader. It would have helped maintain the sense that this is an ongoing movement, with a permanent structure, and not simply a wave of emotion that sweeps (part of) the country every four years. Democrats are thinking too much in terms of winning particular elections with viable candidates and not enough about building a force in civil society that represents a clear agenda of progressive values. Candidates and elections are important, but they need to be powered by the deep structure of American society. Fuck Clinton, metaphorically, Democrats need to think in terms of a new Roosevelt - i.e. someone who was elected not because of his charisma but because he found a way to unify the majority's values and interests into a coherent platform for a coherent party.
Democrats could learn something - albeit not everything - from how Blair is going to win the next election in Britain despite having singlehandedly led the UK into a deeply unpopular war. He will win because people vote Labour. And they vote Labour because Labour finally got it together and destroyed, in effect, the Conservative agenda and hence party.
Jonerik - I entirely agree that Kerry *ought* to take a leadership role. In fact, I think it would have been all-things-considered best for him to take over as Min. Sen. leader. It would have helped maintain the sense that this is an ongoing movement, with a permanent structure, and not simply a wave of emotion that sweeps (part of) the country every four years. Democrats are thinking too much in terms of winning particular elections with viable candidates and not enough about building a force in civil society that represents a clear agenda of progressive values. Candidates and elections are important, but they need to be powered by the deep structure of American society. Fuck Clinton, metaphorically, Democrats need to think in terms of a new Roosevelt - i.e. someone who was elected not because of his charisma but because he found a way to unify the majority's values and interests into a coherent platform for a coherent party.
Democrats could learn something - albeit not everything - from how Blair is going to win the next election in Britain despite having singlehandedly led the UK into a deeply unpopular war. He will win because people vote Labour. And they vote Labour because Labour finally got it together and destroyed, in effect, the Conservative agenda and hence party.
Or how about this:
Gore/Kerry in '08
Or how about this:
Gore/Kerry in '08
No wait that would be kind of stupid.
No wait that would be kind of stupid.
True, they don't windsurf in Kansas and Nebraska. They don't have any fucking oceans there
The best windsurfing is on the Columbia River in the gorge aroundood River.
Sister of ye: I would have preferred that too, I was referring to that article in Rolling Stone about how much the press hated the Kerry campaign because they didn't crack open a kegger for them every night, hence the snarly articles and the 'bruises' that Candy Crowley's tender body suffered by shuffling bags through airline scanners made her just terribly, terribly pro-Bush.
True, they don't windsurf in Kansas and Nebraska. They don't have any fucking oceans there
The best windsurfing is on the Columbia River in the gorge aroundood River.
Sister of ye: I would have preferred that too, I was referring to that article in Rolling Stone about how much the press hated the Kerry campaign because they didn't crack open a kegger for them every night, hence the snarly articles and the 'bruises' that Candy Crowley's tender body suffered by shuffling bags through airline scanners made her just terribly, terribly pro-Bush.
I'm with Wile E. Odysseus. I like Carville and Clinton (sorry Albert Champion). Other than them, I have to say that I like Tad Devine from having seen him on Crossfire a number of times. He seems like a fighter that won't let an untruth go unchallenged. As for whether he or Carville or Begalla is as good inside the campaign, I have no idea.
I'm with Wile E. Odysseus. I like Carville and Clinton (sorry Albert Champion). Other than them, I have to say that I like Tad Devine from having seen him on Crossfire a number of times. He seems like a fighter that won't let an untruth go unchallenged. As for whether he or Carville or Begalla is as good inside the campaign, I have no idea.
Josh's reference to Applebee's suggests that he did have a specific person in mind:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6453647/
One veteran Democratic strategist, Clinton White House political director Doug Sosnik, sums up the answer in one word: Applebee’s.
“The leadership of our party has a cultural disconnect,” Sosnik said. “Our leaders — particularly Washington, D.C.-based — don’t really have the same life, day to day, as all those people out there in those red states. We don’t eat at the same restaurants. I don’t know how many politicians in town that are leaders of our party who voluntarily go to Applebee’s, unless it’s for work."
Josh's reference to Applebee's suggests that he did have a specific person in mind:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6453647/
One veteran Democratic strategist, Clinton White House political director Doug Sosnik, sums up the answer in one word: Applebee’s.
“The leadership of our party has a cultural disconnect,” Sosnik said. “Our leaders — particularly Washington, D.C.-based — don’t really have the same life, day to day, as all those people out there in those red states. We don’t eat at the same restaurants. I don’t know how many politicians in town that are leaders of our party who voluntarily go to Applebee’s, unless it’s for work."
Josh's reference to Applebee's suggests that he did have a specific person in mind:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6453647/
One veteran Democratic strategist, Clinton White House political director Doug Sosnik, sums up the answer in one word: Applebee’s.
“The leadership of our party has a cultural disconnect,” Sosnik said. “Our leaders — particularly Washington, D.C.-based — don’t really have the same life, day to day, as all those people out there in those red states. We don’t eat at the same restaurants. I don’t know how many politicians in town that are leaders of our party who voluntarily go to Applebee’s, unless it’s for work."
Josh's reference to Applebee's suggests that he did have a specific person in mind:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6453647/
One veteran Democratic strategist, Clinton White House political director Doug Sosnik, sums up the answer in one word: Applebee’s.
“The leadership of our party has a cultural disconnect,” Sosnik said. “Our leaders — particularly Washington, D.C.-based — don’t really have the same life, day to day, as all those people out there in those red states. We don’t eat at the same restaurants. I don’t know how many politicians in town that are leaders of our party who voluntarily go to Applebee’s, unless it’s for work."
Hey dumbshits new thread
Hey dumbshits new thread
er, gorge around Hood River.
Too much coffe on the keyboard.
er, gorge around Hood River.
Too much coffe on the keyboard.
sorry about the double post
sorry about the double post
As a person from the midwest, it was instantly obvious that Kerry wasn't the right choice. But he got the nod, so I supported him in the hopes that if he won, we, the progressives, could push him into a postive direction.
But, come on. Kerry? In the heartland he was labelled before he knew what hit 'em. It was his election to lose, and reality did all it could to help the dems.
Keep em in the senate, it's a very good place for him. But let's find some visionaries from Mn, Wis, Ill, Mich., please.
As a person from the midwest, it was instantly obvious that Kerry wasn't the right choice. But he got the nod, so I supported him in the hopes that if he won, we, the progressives, could push him into a postive direction.
But, come on. Kerry? In the heartland he was labelled before he knew what hit 'em. It was his election to lose, and reality did all it could to help the dems.
Keep em in the senate, it's a very good place for him. But let's find some visionaries from Mn, Wis, Ill, Mich., please.
Doug Sosnik's comments remind me of David Brooks little vacuous analysis of the real world. It's clear that he himself is totally clueless if he thinks the place that the commoners want to be is fucking Appleby's.
Doug Sosnik's comments remind me of David Brooks little vacuous analysis of the real world. It's clear that he himself is totally clueless if he thinks the place that the commoners want to be is fucking Appleby's.
The Ohio Recount effort has until MONDAY (two days) to raise $38,000, or the effort will fail.
Recounting Ohio has several GREAT advantages for the nation:
1) Possibility, however slight, of overturning the election(s).
2) Exposing Bush's 'mandate' for YET ANOTHER scandalous voting failure.
3) Raising awareness of the need for a thorough redesign of our voting systems, as well as further attention to Diebold partisanship and blackbox violations of state and federal contracts.
4) Continuing the fight not just to 'count all the cast ballots,' but to count ALL THE VOTES. By canvass, many 100,000s of disenfranchized voters can be given their rights.
$38,000 isn't that much, but Dems have been slow to support a Green party effort, even though the benefits are surely on OUR side as well, in all these ways. The Green party itself has comparatively little to gain for itself alone.
http://tinyurl.com/5cc6n
(I am a lifelong liberal Democrat who has NEVER voted outside the party. Please support this recount effort, even though it is the Green party pushing it through, because WE stand to benefit greatly from this third-party effort. Funds are earmarked for the recall effort, and will not go to candidates).
--
The Ohio Recount effort has until MONDAY (two days) to raise $38,000, or the effort will fail.
Recounting Ohio has several GREAT advantages for the nation:
1) Possibility, however slight, of overturning the election(s).
2) Exposing Bush's 'mandate' for YET ANOTHER scandalous voting failure.
3) Raising awareness of the need for a thorough redesign of our voting systems, as well as further attention to Diebold partisanship and blackbox violations of state and federal contracts.
4) Continuing the fight not just to 'count all the cast ballots,' but to count ALL THE VOTES. By canvass, many 100,000s of disenfranchized voters can be given their rights.
$38,000 isn't that much, but Dems have been slow to support a Green party effort, even though the benefits are surely on OUR side as well, in all these ways. The Green party itself has comparatively little to gain for itself alone.
http://tinyurl.com/5cc6n
(I am a lifelong liberal Democrat who has NEVER voted outside the party. Please support this recount effort, even though it is the Green party pushing it through, because WE stand to benefit greatly from this third-party effort. Funds are earmarked for the recall effort, and will not go to candidates).
--
Kerry lead?
That's a laugh.
To lead a person has to be willing to fight and to take risks. When has Kerry demonstrated anything but a risk-averse temperment during the past four years?
You guys are living in la-la land not to see Kerry for the "empty suited," spineless, and over-privileged career pol that he is.
I don't know what the SOB stands for. And I mean "stands for" as in willing to get down and dirty and fight for it, and lay his ass on the line for it.
This election turned out exactly as I predicted it would last January when it became obvious that Kerry would be the nominee. I knew that he could not credibly and coherently attack Bush on Bush's most vulnerable points. Why? Because he had voted to give Bush a blank check to go to war in Iraq. He had voted FOR the Patriot Act. He voted for at least ONE ROUND of Bush's tax cuts. And he voted for NCLB.
Upon what, then, was Kerry going to attack Bush, and how was he going to credibly do it.
The reason that the "flip flopper" meme resounded with Kerry was because there WAS an element of truth to it. Kerry, for as long as I've watched him over the past two years, has struck me as a finger-in-the-air politician.
It is ironic, given the fact that he's worth $865 million. I mean, with that kind of money, what the fuck does he care if he tells the truth and he gets in trouble for it? It's not as if he's going to starve.
But this is fundamental character flaw. His ego NEEDS the whatever it is that comes from being a successful politician. It's all an ego trip to him. And that is exactly why he is weak. Because for him, very few principles are truly at stake.
And so, he ended up losing on lack of conviction.
Even his capitulation at the end in terms of not holding out until all the votes were counted in Ohio, and not fighting to bring up the issue of voter fraud has "wimp" and "loser" written all over it.
When you're worth $865 million, you can always console yourself, if you lose, with your windsurfing exploits off the New England coast.
Most of the rest of us poor slobs aren't so lucky.
Fuck him. Fuck his cowardly, patrician, entitled, spineless, and capitulating ass!!!
\And fuck the DNC for shoving him down our throats.
Kerry lead?
That's a laugh.
To lead a person has to be willing to fight and to take risks. When has Kerry demonstrated anything but a risk-averse temperment during the past four years?
You guys are living in la-la land not to see Kerry for the "empty suited," spineless, and over-privileged career pol that he is.
I don't know what the SOB stands for. And I mean "stands for" as in willing to get down and dirty and fight for it, and lay his ass on the line for it.
This election turned out exactly as I predicted it would last January when it became obvious that Kerry would be the nominee. I knew that he could not credibly and coherently attack Bush on Bush's most vulnerable points. Why? Because he had voted to give Bush a blank check to go to war in Iraq. He had voted FOR the Patriot Act. He voted for at least ONE ROUND of Bush's tax cuts. And he voted for NCLB.
Upon what, then, was Kerry going to attack Bush, and how was he going to credibly do it.
The reason that the "flip flopper" meme resounded with Kerry was because there WAS an element of truth to it. Kerry, for as long as I've watched him over the past two years, has struck me as a finger-in-the-air politician.
It is ironic, given the fact that he's worth $865 million. I mean, with that kind of money, what the fuck does he care if he tells the truth and he gets in trouble for it? It's not as if he's going to starve.
But this is fundamental character flaw. His ego NEEDS the whatever it is that comes from being a successful politician. It's all an ego trip to him. And that is exactly why he is weak. Because for him, very few principles are truly at stake.
And so, he ended up losing on lack of conviction.
Even his capitulation at the end in terms of not holding out until all the votes were counted in Ohio, and not fighting to bring up the issue of voter fraud has "wimp" and "loser" written all over it.
When you're worth $865 million, you can always console yourself, if you lose, with your windsurfing exploits off the New England coast.
Most of the rest of us poor slobs aren't so lucky.
Fuck him. Fuck his cowardly, patrician, entitled, spineless, and capitulating ass!!!
\And fuck the DNC for shoving him down our throats.
No more Kerry's, no more 'anointed' candidates by the beltway insiders. Think about the similarities between Gore and Kerry and think about how they both lost to the nincompoop. Both ran scared of their pasts, in Gore's case Clinton. In Kerry's case, his war votes.
This election should have been about the Iraq war, and only the Iraq war, from day one. All along it seemed like the DNC was determined not to make the war the central issue. Did not want to get stuck with the label 'anti-war'. Fuck only crazy people and idiots could support a war so plainly illegal and immoral.
Dems have to ask themselves if they would rather be right and lose or be wrong and win. How the party leadership answers that question will determine if they have any core beliefs worth fighting for. If it's only about winning, then the only difference between them and Repugs is style and Dems are losing on style points.
Dean and his supporters were right all along and got shafted by DNC insiders, who may as well have been working for Bush/Cheney.
Would rather endure a thousand years in the gulag then join the 'Party'.
No more Kerry's, no more 'anointed' candidates by the beltway insiders. Think about the similarities between Gore and Kerry and think about how they both lost to the nincompoop. Both ran scared of their pasts, in Gore's case Clinton. In Kerry's case, his war votes.
This election should have been about the Iraq war, and only the Iraq war, from day one. All along it seemed like the DNC was determined not to make the war the central issue. Did not want to get stuck with the label 'anti-war'. Fuck only crazy people and idiots could support a war so plainly illegal and immoral.
Dems have to ask themselves if they would rather be right and lose or be wrong and win. How the party leadership answers that question will determine if they have any core beliefs worth fighting for. If it's only about winning, then the only difference between them and Repugs is style and Dems are losing on style points.
Dean and his supporters were right all along and got shafted by DNC insiders, who may as well have been working for Bush/Cheney.
Would rather endure a thousand years in the gulag then join the 'Party'.
Thanks, Phredd, for the pointer on the Columbia. I think you got what I was trying for, anyway, that people pick the dumbest points to obssess over, and the sports people take part in tend to fit in with what their area offers.
I haven't been active in organizations much in the last dozen years; had too many personal issues that took precedence. Now that things have calmed down a bit, seems it's time to change that - we'll need every hand to pull things around.
Thanks, Phredd, for the pointer on the Columbia. I think you got what I was trying for, anyway, that people pick the dumbest points to obssess over, and the sports people take part in tend to fit in with what their area offers.
I haven't been active in organizations much in the last dozen years; had too many personal issues that took precedence. Now that things have calmed down a bit, seems it's time to change that - we'll need every hand to pull things around.
Not purely OT, from "Meet the New Boss", an article on political machines by Christopher Ketcham, in the December Harper's:
In New York, the Tweed courthouse eventually cost four times the Houses of Parliament. A Tweed contractor charged $2,870,464.06 for a platering job that should have cost $20,000. Padding every account, the Tweed Ring in a mere decade bilked taxpayers of at least $100 million (more than $1.3 billion in today's money). In Philadelphia, "the city of Brotherly Love," grafters joked that they counted the take to the chimes of Independence Hall. Courts were stacked, elections stolen. In New York, Hell-Cat Maggie, a "shoulder-hitter," filed her front teeth and wore brass claws on her fingers as she tore into Republicans on Election Day. The brutality reached a high point of sorts in March 1934, when the Tom Pendergast machine in Kansas City (which pushed Truman into national politics) murdered four people and assaulted more than 200 more to secure a plurality of 59,000 votes. "The spirit of graft and of lawlessness is the American spirit," lamented Lincoln Steffens, the muckraker, in a moment of tragic pique.
And that 1934 Pendergast high point is apparently roughly coincident with that movie, "Gabriel Over the White House". And Capra's "American Madness", IIRC.
Just sayin'.
-
Not purely OT, from "Meet the New Boss", an article on political machines by Christopher Ketcham, in the December Harper's:
In New York, the Tweed courthouse eventually cost four times the Houses of Parliament. A Tweed contractor charged $2,870,464.06 for a platering job that should have cost $20,000. Padding every account, the Tweed Ring in a mere decade bilked taxpayers of at least $100 million (more than $1.3 billion in today's money). In Philadelphia, "the city of Brotherly Love," grafters joked that they counted the take to the chimes of Independence Hall. Courts were stacked, elections stolen. In New York, Hell-Cat Maggie, a "shoulder-hitter," filed her front teeth and wore brass claws on her fingers as she tore into Republicans on Election Day. The brutality reached a high point of sorts in March 1934, when the Tom Pendergast machine in Kansas City (which pushed Truman into national politics) murdered four people and assaulted more than 200 more to secure a plurality of 59,000 votes. "The spirit of graft and of lawlessness is the American spirit," lamented Lincoln Steffens, the muckraker, in a moment of tragic pique.
And that 1934 Pendergast high point is apparently roughly coincident with that movie, "Gabriel Over the White House". And Capra's "American Madness", IIRC.
Just sayin'.
-
plastering
plastering
Will all the rage be dems looking to the southern governors?
Will all the rage be dems looking to the southern governors?
Maybe he should have bought a fake ranch and cleared brush.
I think this would have been a brilliant stroke, and may have turned the press and the election.
Which obviously puts me out of the running for running anything political.
-
Maybe he should have bought a fake ranch and cleared brush.
I think this would have been a brilliant stroke, and may have turned the press and the election.
Which obviously puts me out of the running for running anything political.
-
First off, I'm now a huge and committed Kerry fan. He impressed me enormously over the course of the campaign and the debates, and I consider him to be a remarkable man and an excellent candidate. I'll gladly vote for him again, if the times comes. BUT, I sure didn't feel that way back during the primaries, and one one of the things this thread is making me recall is the incredibly smarmy way Carville (and Begala) played obvious favorites during their daily media message-massaging of each candidate on CNN. Kerry, Edwards, and Lieberman were clearly their boys, and they made no secret of their disdain for Dean and their refusal to take Clark seriously. I hated Carville and Begala even more than Novak and bowtie-boy back in January, and when I think of Carville on election night, conceding that Bush had just whipped his stategic ass, I want to say "See? I told you so, you smug and arrogant bastard." If it weren't a national catastrophe to see Bush reelected, I might take some solace in seeing Carville so humbled.
And another thing: Did anybody else think that Clinton was kind of just going through the motions for Kerry? Sure, he dragged himself out of the hospital bed, but that was as much about his own ego as anything else. And if you watched him during interviews, especially on The Daily Show and Letterman, he seemed determined to be unenthusiastic, mustering faint praise like "I actually do like him" and refusing to do anything resembling real cheerleading. And we know Bill knows how to cheerlead when he wants to. Watching those 2 interviews in particular was the first time I (who have always been a big Clinton fan) actually started to think there might be some substance to those Machiavellian rumors about Bill wanting Kerry to go down to clear the way for Hillary. I suppose he might have been self-consciously dialing it back out of the recognition that his endorsement comes with baggage, but I honestly didn't get that sense. His heart (as it were) just didn't seem to be in it...
First off, I'm now a huge and committed Kerry fan. He impressed me enormously over the course of the campaign and the debates, and I consider him to be a remarkable man and an excellent candidate. I'll gladly vote for him again, if the times comes. BUT, I sure didn't feel that way back during the primaries, and one one of the things this thread is making me recall is the incredibly smarmy way Carville (and Begala) played obvious favorites during their daily media message-massaging of each candidate on CNN. Kerry, Edwards, and Lieberman were clearly their boys, and they made no secret of their disdain for Dean and their refusal to take Clark seriously. I hated Carville and Begala even more than Novak and bowtie-boy back in January, and when I think of Carville on election night, conceding that Bush had just whipped his stategic ass, I want to say "See? I told you so, you smug and arrogant bastard." If it weren't a national catastrophe to see Bush reelected, I might take some solace in seeing Carville so humbled.
And another thing: Did anybody else think that Clinton was kind of just going through the motions for Kerry? Sure, he dragged himself out of the hospital bed, but that was as much about his own ego as anything else. And if you watched him during interviews, especially on The Daily Show and Letterman, he seemed determined to be unenthusiastic, mustering faint praise like "I actually do like him" and refusing to do anything resembling real cheerleading. And we know Bill knows how to cheerlead when he wants to. Watching those 2 interviews in particular was the first time I (who have always been a big Clinton fan) actually started to think there might be some substance to those Machiavellian rumors about Bill wanting Kerry to go down to clear the way for Hillary. I suppose he might have been self-consciously dialing it back out of the recognition that his endorsement comes with baggage, but I honestly didn't get that sense. His heart (as it were) just didn't seem to be in it...
"Dems have to ask themselves if they would rather be right and lose or be wrong and win."
--And because they've seemingly answered that question by way of hte "be wrong and win" formula, they have ended up losing . . . time and time again.
"Dean and his supporters were right all along and got shafted by DNC insiders, who may as well have been working for Bush/Cheney."
--Bingo. This was clear to me last December and January. The DNC establishment was more interested in preserving their privileged existences in the party hierarchy, even it it meant losing the general election, than they were in taking a chance with Dean and his followers (who would have probably cleaned house inside the Dem ranks) and winning. They put their own privileged asses ahead of the good of the party and the good of the country.
--After the Dems capitulated on the Iraq War resolution, I swore then that the DNC would never get another dime from me. Well, I'm happy to say that I've so far kept my word. I gave a lot of money to Dean and to Dean-endorsed candidates. But the Democratic Party, until it makes some fundamental changes, will not get shit from me in terms of money, time or effort.
"Dems have to ask themselves if they would rather be right and lose or be wrong and win."
--And because they've seemingly answered that question by way of hte "be wrong and win" formula, they have ended up losing . . . time and time again.
"Dean and his supporters were right all along and got shafted by DNC insiders, who may as well have been working for Bush/Cheney."
--Bingo. This was clear to me last December and January. The DNC establishment was more interested in preserving their privileged existences in the party hierarchy, even it it meant losing the general election, than they were in taking a chance with Dean and his followers (who would have probably cleaned house inside the Dem ranks) and winning. They put their own privileged asses ahead of the good of the party and the good of the country.
--After the Dems capitulated on the Iraq War resolution, I swore then that the DNC would never get another dime from me. Well, I'm happy to say that I've so far kept my word. I gave a lot of money to Dean and to Dean-endorsed candidates. But the Democratic Party, until it makes some fundamental changes, will not get shit from me in terms of money, time or effort.
Bob Shrum. Susan Estridge. Donna Brazille. Mary Jo what's her face.
Who the fuck ARE these people, anyway?
When are the Dems gonna start hiring people who have some courage and passion and aren't afraid to ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK?
"Oh, but we can't do that," the supposedly wise voices will chime in. "It will just turn people off."
To which I reply: "Oh yeah? Look at the Rethugs. They've never toned down their attacks, even when these attacks had no basis in fact or principle, and this doesn't seem to have hurt them when it comes to the 'winning' department."
I hate nicey-nice, spineless "liberals." Their lives are and perhaps always have been too cushy to really understand what it is like to have their backs against the wall such that will get down and dirty and fight to win.
Until the Dems learn to go for the jugular against oponents who are rabid dogs, they will always be the doormat party.
Bob Shrum. Susan Estridge. Donna Brazille. Mary Jo what's her face.
Who the fuck ARE these people, anyway?
When are the Dems gonna start hiring people who have some courage and passion and aren't afraid to ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK?
"Oh, but we can't do that," the supposedly wise voices will chime in. "It will just turn people off."
To which I reply: "Oh yeah? Look at the Rethugs. They've never toned down their attacks, even when these attacks had no basis in fact or principle, and this doesn't seem to have hurt them when it comes to the 'winning' department."
I hate nicey-nice, spineless "liberals." Their lives are and perhaps always have been too cushy to really understand what it is like to have their backs against the wall such that will get down and dirty and fight to win.
Until the Dems learn to go for the jugular against oponents who are rabid dogs, they will always be the doormat party.
effective uh.
oooooooooookay
effective uh.
oooooooooookay
True, they don't windsurf in Kansas and Nebraska. They don't have any fucking oceans there.
Don't need no oceans, there are plenty of reservoirs and lots of wind here.
We don't all eat roots and have sex with our sisters here either, ya know?.
Believe it or not, some of us even drive automobiles.
True, they don't windsurf in Kansas and Nebraska. They don't have any fucking oceans there.
Don't need no oceans, there are plenty of reservoirs and lots of wind here.
We don't all eat roots and have sex with our sisters here either, ya know?.
Believe it or not, some of us even drive automobiles.
There's no doubt that the Democratic Party has a sort of permanent impending-layoff stench about it, the feeling that people are just trying to save their own hides without much concern for any broader goals, and not enough guts to try to stand out because it's too risky. No wonder everyone thinks the party is dead; its operatives work like they belong to a dying company.
They need a few real hardasses (they have to exist even on the Dem side; hell, I'd do it) to clean house and impose & enforce message discipline, and they need to get everyone some media coaching, for god's sake. Kerry really should be Senate minority leader-- it's the highest national position our party has for right now, & he's our most prominent politician-- and as much as I like Dean for the job, I suspect it would be better to put Edwards in at the DNC with a few of the aforementioned hardasses to keep things moving. One of our many problems is that we let our "failures" fade into obscurity as if we're ashamed of them, instead of having them use their hard-won experience to taunt the opposition. I notice Bob Dole didn't disappear after his loss; neither, of course, did John McCain, even without an official leadership position.
Anyway, that's my business take on the party-- treat it as a company that will be bankrupted and sold off if it can't produce something useful quick, by bringing in "experts" to do the hard stuff, getting back to basics on mission & objectives, cutting out dead weight, keeping the familiar stars in prominent positions for PR value, and making sure everyone represents the company accurately & enthusiastically every single day.
There's no doubt that the Democratic Party has a sort of permanent impending-layoff stench about it, the feeling that people are just trying to save their own hides without much concern for any broader goals, and not enough guts to try to stand out because it's too risky. No wonder everyone thinks the party is dead; its operatives work like they belong to a dying company.
They need a few real hardasses (they have to exist even on the Dem side; hell, I'd do it) to clean house and impose & enforce message discipline, and they need to get everyone some media coaching, for god's sake. Kerry really should be Senate minority leader-- it's the highest national position our party has for right now, & he's our most prominent politician-- and as much as I like Dean for the job, I suspect it would be better to put Edwards in at the DNC with a few of the aforementioned hardasses to keep things moving. One of our many problems is that we let our "failures" fade into obscurity as if we're ashamed of them, instead of having them use their hard-won experience to taunt the opposition. I notice Bob Dole didn't disappear after his loss; neither, of course, did John McCain, even without an official leadership position.
Anyway, that's my business take on the party-- treat it as a company that will be bankrupted and sold off if it can't produce something useful quick, by bringing in "experts" to do the hard stuff, getting back to basics on mission & objectives, cutting out dead weight, keeping the familiar stars in prominent positions for PR value, and making sure everyone represents the company accurately & enthusiastically every single day.
Okay, to figure out how to oust there's a simple formula to start. Anyone who says that the lines between Dem and Repub should be blurred needs to go. Anyone not willing to stand up to the war, needs to go.
But most importantly...
Look for someone who can give America a strong dollar.
The American doll is about to collapse, so anyone that can deliver a strong dollar is someone to roll with. 92% of what we have is floated by foreign investment, if they pull out it's DEPRESSION time.
Keep that in mind rolling forward.
The party that has the answer before the public becomes aware of the problem is the voice of the people.
Okay, to figure out how to oust there's a simple formula to start. Anyone who says that the lines between Dem and Repub should be blurred needs to go. Anyone not willing to stand up to the war, needs to go.
But most importantly...
Look for someone who can give America a strong dollar.
The American doll is about to collapse, so anyone that can deliver a strong dollar is someone to roll with. 92% of what we have is floated by foreign investment, if they pull out it's DEPRESSION time.
Keep that in mind rolling forward.
The party that has the answer before the public becomes aware of the problem is the voice of the people.
Getting rid of the dead wood...
Yes, we do need to do that, although that is not an excuse for a bloodbath.
Look -- the problem with Kerry wasn't that he windsurfed. The problem was the campaign. Just IMAGINE for a moment that Kerry had had Karl Rove and his ethically challenged assistants running his campaign, and Bush had had Bob Shrum and Marybeth Cahill running his. Who would have won? Is that a hard question to answer?
Rove had a brain-damaged chimpanzee with an arrest record whose only viable skills were making photo-ops and sounding Texan. So Kerry windsurfed. Rove would have gladly traded Kerry's windsurfing for any of Bush's bigger public gaffes.
Rove worked with what he had, and he won. Shrum worked with what he had, and he lost. Shrum ran a 1970's campaign against a 21st century strategist and he lost. Rove was the only one able to think outside the box. Hate the man, but admire and respect the man's skills.
So we do have a problem, but the problem is not Kerry, it's not our principles, it's not our base. We need to politely move some people out of the way and replace them with people ready to engage with today's enemy, not the enemy of 20 or 30 years ago.
I can think of at least one jerk that could use a good purge == Evan Bayh. I was never a Deaniac, but I went out of my way last year to write Bayh a little hate-you note after, on the behalf of the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC), Bayh trashed Dean publicly for being too far left to be president. I did not want Dean as my candidate (I was and still am a Clark guy) but it seemed obvious at the time that Dean was the *most likely* candidate of the party and thus it was very inappropriate to trash the man we were probably [at that time] going to have as our candidate.
So cut Evan Bayh loose. Bob Shrum, too. There are others that we could lose, as well, I'm sure. It isn't like these guys have civil service jobs. We need a Dem party that is younger, faster on its feet, more in tune with the 2000's, better able to attack and respond.
Getting rid of the dead wood...
Yes, we do need to do that, although that is not an excuse for a bloodbath.
Look -- the problem with Kerry wasn't that he windsurfed. The problem was the campaign. Just IMAGINE for a moment that Kerry had had Karl Rove and his ethically challenged assistants running his campaign, and Bush had had Bob Shrum and Marybeth Cahill running his. Who would have won? Is that a hard question to answer?
Rove had a brain-damaged chimpanzee with an arrest record whose only viable skills were making photo-ops and sounding Texan. So Kerry windsurfed. Rove would have gladly traded Kerry's windsurfing for any of Bush's bigger public gaffes.
Rove worked with what he had, and he won. Shrum worked with what he had, and he lost. Shrum ran a 1970's campaign against a 21st century strategist and he lost. Rove was the only one able to think outside the box. Hate the man, but admire and respect the man's skills.
So we do have a problem, but the problem is not Kerry, it's not our principles, it's not our base. We need to politely move some people out of the way and replace them with people ready to engage with today's enemy, not the enemy of 20 or 30 years ago.
I can think of at least one jerk that could use a good purge == Evan Bayh. I was never a Deaniac, but I went out of my way last year to write Bayh a little hate-you note after, on the behalf of the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC), Bayh trashed Dean publicly for being too far left to be president. I did not want Dean as my candidate (I was and still am a Clark guy) but it seemed obvious at the time that Dean was the *most likely* candidate of the party and thus it was very inappropriate to trash the man we were probably [at that time] going to have as our candidate.
So cut Evan Bayh loose. Bob Shrum, too. There are others that we could lose, as well, I'm sure. It isn't like these guys have civil service jobs. We need a Dem party that is younger, faster on its feet, more in tune with the 2000's, better able to attack and respond.
Wendell Gee I'm w/ you. Clinton did very little, and altho' he had his heart condition to blame, his wife did even less--that is squat--for the ticket. And I suspect she did nothing because she is positioning herself for a run in 2008.
I can tell you that of the women attorneys that I work with, most of whom are liberal dems, exactly none of them support Hillary for president. And if she runs, woe betide the dems if they select her. Can you remember and project 40 years in the desert?
Wendell Gee I'm w/ you. Clinton did very little, and altho' he had his heart condition to blame, his wife did even less--that is squat--for the ticket. And I suspect she did nothing because she is positioning herself for a run in 2008.
I can tell you that of the women attorneys that I work with, most of whom are liberal dems, exactly none of them support Hillary for president. And if she runs, woe betide the dems if they select her. Can you remember and project 40 years in the desert?
Day 11 of the Apocalypse. Why even bother voting?
Professors at the University of Pennsylvania, reminds us that exit polls are used as 'audits' on the elections in places like Germany and Mexico, and suggests the actual statistical odds that the exit polling was that wrong in the battleground states were 250,000,000 to one. ...
Officials in Youngstown, Ohio managed to catch a slight glitch in their voting there: a total drawn from all the precincts that initially showed negative 25,000,000 million votes cast. ... It evokes a Monty Python sketch (?Mr. Kevin Phillips Bong - Sensible Party - 14,352. Mr. Harquin Fim Tim Lim Bim Bus Stop Fatang Fatang Ole Biscuit Barrel - Silly Party -- minus 25,000,0000).
...
No reason to worry about the integrity of the outcome in Ohio, is there? ...
LINK ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/ )
OLBERMANN: ... there will be, at least a partial recount in New Hampshire. At least their?s the chance of one in Ohio. And they would all be sponsored by three non-mainstream candidates. LINK ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6469559/ )
...
Recount in New Hampshire Granted to Nader Campaign Nov 12 - Stating that "the Nader/Camejo campaign does not view the election to be over merely because concession speeches... have been delivered" ... LINK ( http://newstandardnews.net/conte...&
printmode=true ) ...
Common Cause of Ohio and the Alliance for Democracy, a progressive coalitionhas launched a recount campaign for Ohio. Columbus, Ohio attorney Cliff Arnebeck, who represents both groups, said both the Green Party and Libertarian Party presidential candidates will seek a recount at a cost of $10 per precinct, which comes to slightly more than $110,000. As of Friday morning, $35,000 had been raised, on Saturday afternoon the total was $112,000. There is a possibility that not all Ohio counties will finish the provsional ballot count, which would prompt those seeking the recount to pursue other actions, Arnebeck said.
... LINK ( http://www.alternet.org/election...ection04/20494/
) ... Contributors LINK ( http://www.thealliancefordemocra...g/2138-
AA.shtml )
... Mike Papantonio and Bobby Kennedy, Huffington's fanatics only prevail when fools enable them, Alanis Morissette swallowing a Jagged Pill, along with Jim Hightower get in the "Ring Of Fire" ... If you have two 4 year olds fighting in a room, logic doesn't work. The kids have to be separated, but the decision to use force must be properly weighed against the consequences with consideration for the responsibility of resolving the original dispute.
AUDIO LINK ( rtsp://65.75.142.120/upload/aarf111304.mp3 )
Laura Flanders: ...
What happened in Ohio? ... A live report from the public hearings in Columbus, on election irregularities and possible violations of the U.S. Voting Rights Act with reporter/moderator from FreePress.org BOB FRITAKIS and CLIFF ARNEBECK, attorney for Common Cause (OHIO) and the Allia
Day 11 of the Apocalypse. Why even bother voting?
Professors at the University of Pennsylvania, reminds us that exit polls are used as 'audits' on the elections in places like Germany and Mexico, and suggests the actual statistical odds that the exit polling was that wrong in the battleground states were 250,000,000 to one. ...
Officials in Youngstown, Ohio managed to catch a slight glitch in their voting there: a total drawn from all the precincts that initially showed negative 25,000,000 million votes cast. ... It evokes a Monty Python sketch (?Mr. Kevin Phillips Bong - Sensible Party - 14,352. Mr. Harquin Fim Tim Lim Bim Bus Stop Fatang Fatang Ole Biscuit Barrel - Silly Party -- minus 25,000,0000).
...
No reason to worry about the integrity of the outcome in Ohio, is there? ...
LINK ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/ )
OLBERMANN: ... there will be, at least a partial recount in New Hampshire. At least their?s the chance of one in Ohio. And they would all be sponsored by three non-mainstream candidates. LINK ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6469559/ )
...
Recount in New Hampshire Granted to Nader Campaign Nov 12 - Stating that "the Nader/Camejo campaign does not view the election to be over merely because concession speeches... have been delivered" ... LINK ( http://newstandardnews.net/conte...&
printmode=true ) ...
Common Cause of Ohio and the Alliance for Democracy, a progressive coalitionhas launched a recount campaign for Ohio. Columbus, Ohio attorney Cliff Arnebeck, who represents both groups, said both the Green Party and Libertarian Party presidential candidates will seek a recount at a cost of $10 per precinct, which comes to slightly more than $110,000. As of Friday morning, $35,000 had been raised, on Saturday afternoon the total was $112,000. There is a possibility that not all Ohio counties will finish the provsional ballot count, which would prompt those seeking the recount to pursue other actions, Arnebeck said.
... LINK ( http://www.alternet.org/election...ection04/20494/
) ... Contributors LINK ( http://www.thealliancefordemocra...g/2138-
AA.shtml )
... Mike Papantonio and Bobby Kennedy, Huffington's fanatics only prevail when fools enable them, Alanis Morissette swallowing a Jagged Pill, along with Jim Hightower get in the "Ring Of Fire" ... If you have two 4 year olds fighting in a room, logic doesn't work. The kids have to be separated, but the decision to use force must be properly weighed against the consequences with consideration for the responsibility of resolving the original dispute.
AUDIO LINK ( rtsp://65.75.142.120/upload/aarf111304.mp3 )
Laura Flanders: ...
What happened in Ohio? ... A live report from the public hearings in Columbus, on election irregularities and possible violations of the U.S. Voting Rights Act with reporter/moderator from FreePress.org BOB FRITAKIS and CLIFF ARNEBECK, attorney for Common Cause (OHIO) and the Allia
I don't like Applebees, true. I like Perkins. Pie!!!!
I don't like Applebees, true. I like Perkins. Pie!!!!
and the Alliance for Democracy and RONNIE DUGGER. ... Journalist, dj, DAVEY D joins the discussion with AMY KAPLAN from the League of Pissed Off Voters. ...
AUDIO LINK ( rtsp://65.75.142.120/upload/aalf111304.mp3 )
...
Marty Kaplan's "So what else is news". ...
Can you smell what the Rove is cooking? ... Legendary Washington Post editor Ben Bradlee looks at the parallels between voter fraud in Ohio and the Watergate scandal 30 years ago. ... Former Senator Gary Hart on mixing faith and politics ...
AUDIO LINK ( rtsp://65.75.142.120/upload/aasw110604.mp3 ) ...
Laura Flanders:
What are progressives in the not-so United States to do?
...
Guests:
Arianna Huffington, activist and progressive pundit
Carole Migden, an out lesbian who was just elected to the California Senate ...
Jehmu Greene, Rock the Vote ...
Joann Wypijewski, The Nation Magazine ...
Matt Foreman, National Gay and Lesbian Task Force ...
Jim Wallis , Sojourners Magazine ...
Thom Hartmann, ?The Thom Hartmann Show? ...
Lizz Brown, ?Wake Up Call with Lizz Brown? ...
AUDIO LINK ( rtsp://65.75.142.120/upload/aalf110704.mp3 )
...
Where did W?s new eight million more votes come from?a system that was rigged against progressive voters, or a particularly good, and under-covered mobilization of the Republicans? base, conservatives?
...
Guests:
Laura Olson, Clemson University ...
Larry Gonzales, National Association of Hispanic Elected Officials ...
Miles Gerety, a public defender from Connecticut went to Ohio as a legal observer ...
Brian Clark, SierraClubVoter.org ...
Billy Shaheen, New Hampshire Kerry Campaign Chair ...
Carole Moseley-Braun, former presidential candidate, Senator, and Ambassador ...
Anne Waldman, performance poet ...
David Levi Strauss
...
AUDIO LINK ( rtsp://65.75.142.120/upload/aalf110604.mp3 )
...
FLASHBACK to 2000 Election VIDEO LINK ( http://
unprecedented.petitionthe...00_Election.avi )
...
On the lighter side, to understand fuzzy math click LINK ( http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/...h/
fuzzymath.php )
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Still waiting for the phat hermaphrodite to SING ...
Malloy, Flanders, Rhodes and Olbermann, but RNN is not on board with the following pretense:
To believe that Bush won the election, you must also believe:
...
1- That the exit polls were WRONG...
...
2- That Zogby's 5pm election day calls for Kerry winning OH, FL were WRONG. He was exactly RIGHT in his 2000 final poll.
...
3- That Harris last minute polling for Kerry was WRONG. He was exactly RIGHT in his 2000 final poll.
...
4- The Incumbent Rule I (that undecideds break for the challenger)was WRONG.
...
5- The 50% Rule was WRONG (that an incumbent doesn't do better than his final polling)
...
6- The Approval Rating Rule was WRONG (that an incumbent with less than 50% appr
and the Alliance for Democracy and RONNIE DUGGER. ... Journalist, dj, DAVEY D joins the discussion with AMY KAPLAN from the League of Pissed Off Voters. ...
AUDIO LINK ( rtsp://65.75.142.120/upload/aalf111304.mp3 )
...
Marty Kaplan's "So what else is news". ...
Can you smell what the Rove is cooking? ... Legendary Washington Post editor Ben Bradlee looks at the parallels between voter fraud in Ohio and the Watergate scandal 30 years ago. ... Former Senator Gary Hart on mixing faith and politics ...
AUDIO LINK ( rtsp://65.75.142.120/upload/aasw110604.mp3 ) ...
Laura Flanders:
What are progressives in the not-so United States to do?
...
Guests:
Arianna Huffington, activist and progressive pundit
Carole Migden, an out lesbian who was just elected to the California Senate ...
Jehmu Greene, Rock the Vote ...
Joann Wypijewski, The Nation Magazine ...
Matt Foreman, National Gay and Lesbian Task Force ...
Jim Wallis , Sojourners Magazine ...
Thom Hartmann, ?The Thom Hartmann Show? ...
Lizz Brown, ?Wake Up Call with Lizz Brown? ...
AUDIO LINK ( rtsp://65.75.142.120/upload/aalf110704.mp3 )
...
Where did W?s new eight million more votes come from?a system that was rigged against progressive voters, or a particularly good, and under-covered mobilization of the Republicans? base, conservatives?
...
Guests:
Laura Olson, Clemson University ...
Larry Gonzales, National Association of Hispanic Elected Officials ...
Miles Gerety, a public defender from Connecticut went to Ohio as a legal observer ...
Brian Clark, SierraClubVoter.org ...
Billy Shaheen, New Hampshire Kerry Campaign Chair ...
Carole Moseley-Braun, former presidential candidate, Senator, and Ambassador ...
Anne Waldman, performance poet ...
David Levi Strauss
...
AUDIO LINK ( rtsp://65.75.142.120/upload/aalf110604.mp3 )
...
FLASHBACK to 2000 Election VIDEO LINK ( http://
unprecedented.petitionthe...00_Election.avi )
...
On the lighter side, to understand fuzzy math click LINK ( http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/...h/
fuzzymath.php )
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Still waiting for the phat hermaphrodite to SING ...
Malloy, Flanders, Rhodes and Olbermann, but RNN is not on board with the following pretense:
To believe that Bush won the election, you must also believe:
...
1- That the exit polls were WRONG...
...
2- That Zogby's 5pm election day calls for Kerry winning OH, FL were WRONG. He was exactly RIGHT in his 2000 final poll.
...
3- That Harris last minute polling for Kerry was WRONG. He was exactly RIGHT in his 2000 final poll.
...
4- The Incumbent Rule I (that undecideds break for the challenger)was WRONG.
...
5- The 50% Rule was WRONG (that an incumbent doesn't do better than his final polling)
...
6- The Approval Rating Rule was WRONG (that an incumbent with less than 50% appr
50% approval will most likely lose the election)
...
7- That Greg Palast was WRONG when he said that even before the election, 1 million votes were stolen from Kerry. He was the ONLY reporter to break the fact that 90,000 Florida blacks were disnfranchised in 2000.
...
8- That it was just a COINCIDENCE that the exit polls were CORRECT where there WAS a PAPER TRAIL and INCORRECT (+5% for Bush) where there was NO PAPER TRAIL.
...
9- That the surge in new young voters had NO positive effect for Kerry.
...
10- That Bush BEAT 99-1 mathematical odds in winning the election.
...
11- That Kerry did WORSE than Gore agains an opponent who LOST the support of SCORES of Republican newspapers who were for Bush in 2000.
...
12- That Bush did better than an 18 national poll average which showed him tied with Kerry at 47. In other words, Bush got 80% of the undecided vote to end up with a 51-48 majority - when ALL professional pollsters agree that the undecided vote ALWAYS goes to the challenger.
...
13- That Voting machines made by Republicans with no paper trail and with no software publication, which have been proven by thousands of computer scientists to be vulnerable in scores of ways, were NOT tampered with in this election. ...
LINK ( http://mystolennation.com/module...e=print&
sid=532 )
...
OLBERMANN: ... Would you John Conyers of Michigan, Jerrold Nadler of New York, Robert Wexler of Florida, Rush Holt of New Jersey, Robert C. Scott of Virginia, and Melvin Watt of North Carolina, be doing this if John Kerry had won the election and the accusations were flowing in that intentionally or otherwise, it was Democrats who might have had thumbs on the scales against Mr. Bush?
...
CONYERS: Well, this doesn?t have anything to do with partisanship. We were the ones that, the Democrats were the victims of 2000. We?re trying to make the process work for everybody. So it?s not a matter of going after this because of the Republicans are involved in much of the questions that have been raised by the complaints that we?ve received.
LINK ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6442857/ ) ...
FLASHBACK to 2000 Election VIDEO LINK ( http://
unprecedented.petitionthe...00_Election.avi ) ...
BitTorrent VIDEO LINK ( http://
unprecedented.petitionthe...lection.torrent )
50% approval will most likely lose the election)
...
7- That Greg Palast was WRONG when he said that even before the election, 1 million votes were stolen from Kerry. He was the ONLY reporter to break the fact that 90,000 Florida blacks were disnfranchised in 2000.
...
8- That it was just a COINCIDENCE that the exit polls were CORRECT where there WAS a PAPER TRAIL and INCORRECT (+5% for Bush) where there was NO PAPER TRAIL.
...
9- That the surge in new young voters had NO positive effect for Kerry.
...
10- That Bush BEAT 99-1 mathematical odds in winning the election.
...
11- That Kerry did WORSE than Gore agains an opponent who LOST the support of SCORES of Republican newspapers who were for Bush in 2000.
...
12- That Bush did better than an 18 national poll average which showed him tied with Kerry at 47. In other words, Bush got 80% of the undecided vote to end up with a 51-48 majority - when ALL professional pollsters agree that the undecided vote ALWAYS goes to the challenger.
...
13- That Voting machines made by Republicans with no paper trail and with no software publication, which have been proven by thousands of computer scientists to be vulnerable in scores of ways, were NOT tampered with in this election. ...
LINK ( http://mystolennation.com/module...e=print&
sid=532 )
...
OLBERMANN: ... Would you John Conyers of Michigan, Jerrold Nadler of New York, Robert Wexler of Florida, Rush Holt of New Jersey, Robert C. Scott of Virginia, and Melvin Watt of North Carolina, be doing this if John Kerry had won the election and the accusations were flowing in that intentionally or otherwise, it was Democrats who might have had thumbs on the scales against Mr. Bush?
...
CONYERS: Well, this doesn?t have anything to do with partisanship. We were the ones that, the Democrats were the victims of 2000. We?re trying to make the process work for everybody. So it?s not a matter of going after this because of the Republicans are involved in much of the questions that have been raised by the complaints that we?ve received.
LINK ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6442857/ ) ...
FLASHBACK to 2000 Election VIDEO LINK ( http://
unprecedented.petitionthe...00_Election.avi ) ...
BitTorrent VIDEO LINK ( http://
unprecedented.petitionthe...lection.torrent )
i agree with the point about disagreeing with establishment dems who are buying into rightwing criticism that the party is "out of touch" with the country, when that's not the case. the majority agree with us on the issues. did they forget that? we just got out hustled on the marketing end. the answer isn't to suddenly become bible quotin', tobacco chewin', honky tonk listenin' nascar fans. also alarming how quickly and easily these so called party leaders bought into media mistaken conventional wisdom, agenda driven oped pages. yikes!
now, about the second point about criticism aimed at kerry from the inner circle, how about seeing what the critique is first before dismissing it out of hand, sight unseen. i liked the double standard at work here: after the primaries, criticism of kerry was frowned upon because we're supposed to project party unity. after kerry loses, criticism of kerry is frowned upon because we're supposed to project party unity. ok, i give up. kerry is perfect. this guy is the most coddled, protected and cocooned democrat whose ever run. it's amazing.
i agree with the point about disagreeing with establishment dems who are buying into rightwing criticism that the party is "out of touch" with the country, when that's not the case. the majority agree with us on the issues. did they forget that? we just got out hustled on the marketing end. the answer isn't to suddenly become bible quotin', tobacco chewin', honky tonk listenin' nascar fans. also alarming how quickly and easily these so called party leaders bought into media mistaken conventional wisdom, agenda driven oped pages. yikes!
now, about the second point about criticism aimed at kerry from the inner circle, how about seeing what the critique is first before dismissing it out of hand, sight unseen. i liked the double standard at work here: after the primaries, criticism of kerry was frowned upon because we're supposed to project party unity. after kerry loses, criticism of kerry is frowned upon because we're supposed to project party unity. ok, i give up. kerry is perfect. this guy is the most coddled, protected and cocooned democrat whose ever run. it's amazing.
Re: the WRONG WRONG WRONG to nominate Kerry idea
This brings up a question I have wondered about since Iowa..
How was it that Dean was kicking ass all over the place, and then Kerry was all of a sudden the guy, seemingly out of nowhere?
I'm not trying to hatchet Kerry, but I'm trying to understand if there was some inner circle or something in the DNC that decided Dean wasn't electable, and that Kerry was the go to guy.
Re: the WRONG WRONG WRONG to nominate Kerry idea
This brings up a question I have wondered about since Iowa..
How was it that Dean was kicking ass all over the place, and then Kerry was all of a sudden the guy, seemingly out of nowhere?
I'm not trying to hatchet Kerry, but I'm trying to understand if there was some inner circle or something in the DNC that decided Dean wasn't electable, and that Kerry was the go to guy.
you don't know about kerry's anti-semitic push polling? the bin laden attack ad funded by kerry supporter torrecelli? kerry's internet data mining, which found and targeted dean's top supporters (his #1s)? sharpton teaming up with gop operative roger stone AND a former clinton aide worker, who came up with playing the race card against him.
dean had to fend off the left and the right. why do you think they thought him such a threat that gop and dnc found a common enemy? even the 'club for growth' ad was found to have dem contributors. begala was caught bragging about his handiwork.
yes, dean brought some of this upon himself by being impulsively honest, and the saddam capture was interestingly timed, but establishment dems went a long way in cutting him off at the knees. in fact, dem operatives were more ferocious in their attack of dean than they were of bush.
you don't know about kerry's anti-semitic push polling? the bin laden attack ad funded by kerry supporter torrecelli? kerry's internet data mining, which found and targeted dean's top supporters (his #1s)? sharpton teaming up with gop operative roger stone AND a former clinton aide worker, who came up with playing the race card against him.
dean had to fend off the left and the right. why do you think they thought him such a threat that gop and dnc found a common enemy? even the 'club for growth' ad was found to have dem contributors. begala was caught bragging about his handiwork.
yes, dean brought some of this upon himself by being impulsively honest, and the saddam capture was interestingly timed, but establishment dems went a long way in cutting him off at the knees. in fact, dem operatives were more ferocious in their attack of dean than they were of bush.
Let the Purge begin!
Let the ethics cease fire END!
But as far as loyalty to Kerry is concerned, that is something to be
EARNED, not donated!
Let the Purge begin!
Let the ethics cease fire END!
But as far as loyalty to Kerry is concerned, that is something to be
EARNED, not donated!
Dear me. Do people really think that Dean would have survived the Rove-storm, had he made it through the primaries? That Governor Civil Unions wouldn't have become Governor Gay Marriage?
anonymous in nc
why do you let rove pick your candidate? why do you let him bully you like that?
Dear me. Do people really think that Dean would have survived the Rove-storm, had he made it through the primaries? That Governor Civil Unions wouldn't have become Governor Gay Marriage?
anonymous in nc
why do you let rove pick your candidate? why do you let him bully you like that?
why do you keep picking the guy you think least vulnerable? that's playing defense. the best defense game in the world wont produce a victory. next time pick the guy with the best offense. next time pick a guy who'll fight back.
why do you keep picking the guy you think least vulnerable? that's playing defense. the best defense game in the world wont produce a victory. next time pick the guy with the best offense. next time pick a guy who'll fight back.
Your Democratic party just lost you ANOTHER election. Now, they want you to sit back and watch as they repeat all the same mistakes that have gotten them to the weak (and getting weaker) position that they are in, starting with rolling over for A.G.
Are you going to continue to take it?
Your Democratic party just lost you ANOTHER election. Now, they want you to sit back and watch as they repeat all the same mistakes that have gotten them to the weak (and getting weaker) position that they are in, starting with rolling over for A.G.
Are you going to continue to take it?
"...but I'm trying to understand if there was some inner circle or something in the DNC that decided Dean wasn't electable, and that Kerry was the go to guy."
Yes.
"...but I'm trying to understand if there was some inner circle or something in the DNC that decided Dean wasn't electable, and that Kerry was the go to guy."
Yes.
I saw someone observe that Chimpy wasn't pandering to the Christian Jihadists...he's one of them. The Dem talking heads and candiates, however, seem simply silly talking about the "middle class" or "working class" because they are far removed from either of those groups. Now THAT"S PANDERING!
If we want to be taken seriously, the DNC needs to audition and groom some real, middle/working class talking heads and get them out there. You'll find them in the state legislatures and in the labor unions. They can articulate the talking points from the heart, because they're living them every day. And god knows it won't be hard to find more interesting personalities than the pablum pumps we've endured over the past few election cycles.
I saw someone observe that Chimpy wasn't pandering to the Christian Jihadists...he's one of them. The Dem talking heads and candiates, however, seem simply silly talking about the "middle class" or "working class" because they are far removed from either of those groups. Now THAT"S PANDERING!
If we want to be taken seriously, the DNC needs to audition and groom some real, middle/working class talking heads and get them out there. You'll find them in the state legislatures and in the labor unions. They can articulate the talking points from the heart, because they're living them every day. And god knows it won't be hard to find more interesting personalities than the pablum pumps we've endured over the past few election cycles.
Kerry may not have won, and may not have run a perfect campaign, but he never embarrassed us as Democrats. He was neither Jimmy Carter nor Walter Mondale nor Michael Dukakis.
He won each one of the three debates, and decisively, and not just because he was intellectually more on target (how difficult could that be anyway?), but because he seemed to most Americans more Presidential, and to many in the middle, even more likable than Bush.
And anyone who thinks he did everything by political calculation should ponder the story told about some advice he got from Clinton, and how he responded. Clinton had suggested that he should actively support local bans on gay marriage. Kerry refused to do so, telling aides that he would NEVER do that. Politically, Clinton was right; but Kerry understood that to back these bans would be to side with the forces of bigotry, which he simply would not do.
But the thing that's worst about tearing down Kerry at this point is that it would remove an absolutely major voice from the Democratic Party without replacing it with any other. The Democratic Party, as a minority party, needs, more than anything else, voices people are already familiar with, and in whom they have shown some real trust.
How much more self defeating could Democrats be, than to try to muffle and discredit a voice that has been built up by means of a year's worth of massive publicity, impossible to replicate for another four years?
Democrats may or may not choose to have Kerry as their nominee in 2008, but diminishing him in the Party until that time will damage the Party as surely as it stifles him.
Kerry may not have won, and may not have run a perfect campaign, but he never embarrassed us as Democrats. He was neither Jimmy Carter nor Walter Mondale nor Michael Dukakis.
He won each one of the three debates, and decisively, and not just because he was intellectually more on target (how difficult could that be anyway?), but because he seemed to most Americans more Presidential, and to many in the middle, even more likable than Bush.
And anyone who thinks he did everything by political calculation should ponder the story told about some advice he got from Clinton, and how he responded. Clinton had suggested that he should actively support local bans on gay marriage. Kerry refused to do so, telling aides that he would NEVER do that. Politically, Clinton was right; but Kerry understood that to back these bans would be to side with the forces of bigotry, which he simply would not do.
But the thing that's worst about tearing down Kerry at this point is that it would remove an absolutely major voice from the Democratic Party without replacing it with any other. The Democratic Party, as a minority party, needs, more than anything else, voices people are already familiar with, and in whom they have shown some real trust.
How much more self defeating could Democrats be, than to try to muffle and discredit a voice that has been built up by means of a year's worth of massive publicity, impossible to replicate for another four years?
Democrats may or may not choose to have Kerry as their nominee in 2008, but diminishing him in the Party until that time will damage the Party as surely as it stifles him.
Let me get a grip on this Democratic guilt. Questioning the vote totals and the black box voting problems as election fraud is bad. Questioning any of Kerry's poor choices is bad. But we are supposed to learn from our mistakes.
Bah. Which is it?
Let me get a grip on this Democratic guilt. Questioning the vote totals and the black box voting problems as election fraud is bad. Questioning any of Kerry's poor choices is bad. But we are supposed to learn from our mistakes.
Bah. Which is it?
Those who were never won over in the first place owe no loyalty to Kerry, no matter what anyone says.
And Clinton was dead wrong about gay marriage (along with a lot of other things). On that, at least, Kerry was right, even if he didn't see the full implications of it. Lacking a spine is not a virtue, Bill.
Those who were never won over in the first place owe no loyalty to Kerry, no matter what anyone says.
And Clinton was dead wrong about gay marriage (along with a lot of other things). On that, at least, Kerry was right, even if he didn't see the full implications of it. Lacking a spine is not a virtue, Bill.
Josh Marshall can go Cheney himself. He is happy as long as it is Arabs being blown up. He was one of many enablers who supported Bush's craven blood thirst - just like Kerry. These Democrats you are happy to diss now because they lost are the ones who were afraid to take a position against Bush's war crimes when they could have made a difference. I don't care what Bush postion you offer I can come up with many reasons why one should vote against it. As Howard Dean supporters discovered, speak the truth now no matter how unpopular it is. Dr. Dean is the only US politician who had the guts to state capturing Saddam wouldn't make us any safer. He was right. Bush, Kerry, Josh were all fucking wrong.
Josh Marshall can go Cheney himself. He is happy as long as it is Arabs being blown up. He was one of many enablers who supported Bush's craven blood thirst - just like Kerry. These Democrats you are happy to diss now because they lost are the ones who were afraid to take a position against Bush's war crimes when they could have made a difference. I don't care what Bush postion you offer I can come up with many reasons why one should vote against it. As Howard Dean supporters discovered, speak the truth now no matter how unpopular it is. Dr. Dean is the only US politician who had the guts to state capturing Saddam wouldn't make us any safer. He was right. Bush, Kerry, Josh were all fucking wrong.
loyalty...is something to be
EARNED, not donated!
damn straight.
really ironic when you think about it. party demands loyalty from the rank and file, when it had the nerve to game the primary so that their guy won. it demands loyalty from the rank and file, and yet displayed contempt for their own constituency by manipulating choice. they didn't have trust or decency to allow for natural selection. well, loyalty is a two way street where i come from.
and what about the berayal of the our so called leaders with their support of this obscene war? where was their loyalty to us?
loyalty...is something to be
EARNED, not donated!
damn straight.
really ironic when you think about it. party demands loyalty from the rank and file, when it had the nerve to game the primary so that their guy won. it demands loyalty from the rank and file, and yet displayed contempt for their own constituency by manipulating choice. they didn't have trust or decency to allow for natural selection. well, loyalty is a two way street where i come from.
and what about the berayal of the our so called leaders with their support of this obscene war? where was their loyalty to us?
i guess it's just conspiracy theory,(not) but sings sings post seems relevant to me. they stole the election. and in a way that was worse than nixons creep. talk about rat fuck'n.
no political canidate can be all things to all voters. i hated howard dean as a canidate, i would have still gladly voted for him. we are living in an age of the politics of destruction. why? because it works. the dems. do not need to imitate this, they need to show it for what it is so that it no longer works. how? that of course is the big question.
i for one certainly hope john kerry and howard dean are part of the solution to answeering that question. they both could use some pointers on style, but the escence of their message is clear. hate, fear, and exclusion are not american values.
having said that,as far as operatives go, yeah, new blood. again, style is important.
i guess it's just conspiracy theory,(not) but sings sings post seems relevant to me. they stole the election. and in a way that was worse than nixons creep. talk about rat fuck'n.
no political canidate can be all things to all voters. i hated howard dean as a canidate, i would have still gladly voted for him. we are living in an age of the politics of destruction. why? because it works. the dems. do not need to imitate this, they need to show it for what it is so that it no longer works. how? that of course is the big question.
i for one certainly hope john kerry and howard dean are part of the solution to answeering that question. they both could use some pointers on style, but the escence of their message is clear. hate, fear, and exclusion are not american values.
having said that,as far as operatives go, yeah, new blood. again, style is important.
and to support my point, Mo Do
it chagrins me to use her as a basis to support an argument, but she does call 'em as she see 'em. a trait i greatly admire.
"George," Dr. Dobson haughtily snapped back, "do you think you ought to lecture me on what a Christian is all about?" Why not? The TV host is the son of a Greek Orthodox priest.
Acting as though Mr. Bush's decisions should be taken on faith, John Ashcroft lashed into judges for not giving Mr. Bush unbridled power in his war against terror.
it's not about who 'we' are for, it's what we're up against.
and to support my point, Mo Do
it chagrins me to use her as a basis to support an argument, but she does call 'em as she see 'em. a trait i greatly admire.
"George," Dr. Dobson haughtily snapped back, "do you think you ought to lecture me on what a Christian is all about?" Why not? The TV host is the son of a Greek Orthodox priest.
Acting as though Mr. Bush's decisions should be taken on faith, John Ashcroft lashed into judges for not giving Mr. Bush unbridled power in his war against terror.
it's not about who 'we' are for, it's what we're up against.
"Kerry may not have won, and may not have run a perfect campaign, but he never embarrassed us as Democrats. He was neither Jimmy Carter nor Walter Mondale nor Michael Dukakis."
--Speak for yourself.
--Actually, in many ways, Mike Dukakis is an appropos comparison. (Remember the photo op with him in the tank? Remember Kerry's photo ops wind surfing and then hunting, trying to appear the "good ole boy?")
--And in many ways, Mondale, Carter, and even Gore are good comparisons. All these people (including Dukakis) didn't run campaigns that were aggressive or new how to attack.
--Kerry embarrassed Democrats with his four years of capitulations to Bush in the Senate.
--He embarrassed the Dems by pulling dirty tricks on Dean in Iowa and NH.
--Kerry embarrassed the Dems by letting the campaign of one of the worst presidents in history define Kerry in the popular and undecided mind instead of the other way around, and never going on the attack against Bush until the final weeks of the campaign.
--He embarrassed the Dems by being talked into running a convention in which the only theme that was allowable was "John Kerry was a war hero thirty years ago." And then, he embarrassed the Dems by doing nothing for a long time in the face of the Swift Boat Liars' attacks upon him.
--He embarrassed the Dems by saying that he would have still voted for this war even knowing what he knows now.
--Do you want me to go on?
--Oh, and to the person who made the point that the establishment Dems went after Dean more intently than they ever went after Bush, I say, "You're damned right." Which tells me that in the end, what the establishment Dems really care about is preserving their own power and influence in the party more than they care about winning elections (Kerry the "most electable?" Puuhhlease!!) the good of the country.
--The current Democratic Party, until it makes some fundamental changes in a direction of toward economic and political populism that puts it in touch with and responsive to its grass roots, rank-and-file activist supporters, will be nothing more than a bankrupt, ineffectual institution that exists for no other purpose than to co-opt dissent and dissatisfaction with the powers-that-be and the current status quo and channel that dissent into nothingness.
--Getting back to the Dukakis comparison, Mort Sohl once wryly observed that out of all the Greeks in the country, the Dems had chosen the most colorless one to run for President. There must be something about New England upper-class "Yankeedom" when it comes to making people emotionally constricted, overly cautious, and downright stuffed shirt tight-asses.
"Kerry may not have won, and may not have run a perfect campaign, but he never embarrassed us as Democrats. He was neither Jimmy Carter nor Walter Mondale nor Michael Dukakis."
--Speak for yourself.
--Actually, in many ways, Mike Dukakis is an appropos comparison. (Remember the photo op with him in the tank? Remember Kerry's photo ops wind surfing and then hunting, trying to appear the "good ole boy?")
--And in many ways, Mondale, Carter, and even Gore are good comparisons. All these people (including Dukakis) didn't run campaigns that were aggressive or new how to attack.
--Kerry embarrassed Democrats with his four years of capitulations to Bush in the Senate.
--He embarrassed the Dems by pulling dirty tricks on Dean in Iowa and NH.
--Kerry embarrassed the Dems by letting the campaign of one of the worst presidents in history define Kerry in the popular and undecided mind instead of the other way around, and never going on the attack against Bush until the final weeks of the campaign.
--He embarrassed the Dems by being talked into running a convention in which the only theme that was allowable was "John Kerry was a war hero thirty years ago." And then, he embarrassed the Dems by doing nothing for a long time in the face of the Swift Boat Liars' attacks upon him.
--He embarrassed the Dems by saying that he would have still voted for this war even knowing what he knows now.
--Do you want me to go on?
--Oh, and to the person who made the point that the establishment Dems went after Dean more intently than they ever went after Bush, I say, "You're damned right." Which tells me that in the end, what the establishment Dems really care about is preserving their own power and influence in the party more than they care about winning elections (Kerry the "most electable?" Puuhhlease!!) the good of the country.
--The current Democratic Party, until it makes some fundamental changes in a direction of toward economic and political populism that puts it in touch with and responsive to its grass roots, rank-and-file activist supporters, will be nothing more than a bankrupt, ineffectual institution that exists for no other purpose than to co-opt dissent and dissatisfaction with the powers-that-be and the current status quo and channel that dissent into nothingness.
--Getting back to the Dukakis comparison, Mort Sohl once wryly observed that out of all the Greeks in the country, the Dems had chosen the most colorless one to run for President. There must be something about New England upper-class "Yankeedom" when it comes to making people emotionally constricted, overly cautious, and downright stuffed shirt tight-asses.
it's not about who 'we' are for, it's what we're up against.
it is about we. there is a disconnect between party and the rank and file. you have to ask yourself why do we have more moxie and more willingness to fight than they do? why do they have a 'go along to get along' ethic? you can't fight the enemy with that kind of attitude.
party leaders, when they held majority in the senate, refused to subpoena cheney and expose his secret energy task force. instead of exposing WH corruption, they rolled over again and again in the face of a man not even legitimately elected.
yes, look at what we're up against. and look at the history of this party's response to it. kerry couldn't concede fast enough.
until party leaders stop appeasing the enemy, there is little hope of us winning. it's time to get new leaders.
it's not about who 'we' are for, it's what we're up against.
it is about we. there is a disconnect between party and the rank and file. you have to ask yourself why do we have more moxie and more willingness to fight than they do? why do they have a 'go along to get along' ethic? you can't fight the enemy with that kind of attitude.
party leaders, when they held majority in the senate, refused to subpoena cheney and expose his secret energy task force. instead of exposing WH corruption, they rolled over again and again in the face of a man not even legitimately elected.
yes, look at what we're up against. and look at the history of this party's response to it. kerry couldn't concede fast enough.
until party leaders stop appeasing the enemy, there is little hope of us winning. it's time to get new leaders.
"...but I'm trying to understand if there was some inner circle or something in the DNC that decided Dean wasn't electable, and that Kerry was the go to guy."
--"Yes" again.
--Indeed, Wesley Clark confirmed as much when, less than two weeks after dropping out of the race, he went on Charlie Rose's show and said that one of the main reasons that he decided to run for President was because establishment Dems and insiders had selected Kerry to be their standard bearer as early as 2002, and that the Dean insurgency came out of nowhere and was interfering with their plans. Clark said that these people--and I suspect the Clintons were among them also, albeit for their own separate reasons--wanted him to run as the "anti-Dean" in order to siphon off support from Dean and stop his insurgency. (Interestingly, he said that Tom Harken, who later ended up publicly backing Dean in Iowa, was one of these people who encouraged Clark to run for precisely such reasons.)
--By the way, it seems to me that Democratic incumbancy (remember what a "populist" Harken supposedly was?) is what is corrupting to politicians, making them stand only for preserving their cushy positions, and therefore argues in favor of term limits.
--Look, I've seen the Dems do the same thing before. In 1988 Jessie Jackson was running another populist insurgency within the Democratic Party. In fact, at the beginning of the primary season, he was leading Dukakis, or at least going neck-and-neck with him, in the delegate totals, having successfully connected not just with blacks, but with rural whites in rural and midwestern areas across the country. Then, mysteriously, the Democratic powers-that-be, once again aided by the corporate media, started pushing Dukakis as "the man" and the Jackson candidacy was soon ecliipsed and forgotten. In that case, they didn't so much attack Jackson, as they ignored and marginalised him.
--More and more, it seems to me that the function of the Democratic Party as it is currently constituted--and perhaps ALWAYS has been constituted--is to siphon off and coopt real dissent and demand for change from the left, while making sure that nothing, aside from cosmetics, really ever is changed. In that sense, the establishment Dems in D.C. are just as much in league with and ARE the powers of darkness as the Rethugs are.
"...but I'm trying to understand if there was some inner circle or something in the DNC that decided Dean wasn't electable, and that Kerry was the go to guy."
--"Yes" again.
--Indeed, Wesley Clark confirmed as much when, less than two weeks after dropping out of the race, he went on Charlie Rose's show and said that one of the main reasons that he decided to run for President was because establishment Dems and insiders had selected Kerry to be their standard bearer as early as 2002, and that the Dean insurgency came out of nowhere and was interfering with their plans. Clark said that these people--and I suspect the Clintons were among them also, albeit for their own separate reasons--wanted him to run as the "anti-Dean" in order to siphon off support from Dean and stop his insurgency. (Interestingly, he said that Tom Harken, who later ended up publicly backing Dean in Iowa, was one of these people who encouraged Clark to run for precisely such reasons.)
--By the way, it seems to me that Democratic incumbancy (remember what a "populist" Harken supposedly was?) is what is corrupting to politicians, making them stand only for preserving their cushy positions, and therefore argues in favor of term limits.
--Look, I've seen the Dems do the same thing before. In 1988 Jessie Jackson was running another populist insurgency within the Democratic Party. In fact, at the beginning of the primary season, he was leading Dukakis, or at least going neck-and-neck with him, in the delegate totals, having successfully connected not just with blacks, but with rural whites in rural and midwestern areas across the country. Then, mysteriously, the Democratic powers-that-be, once again aided by the corporate media, started pushing Dukakis as "the man" and the Jackson candidacy was soon ecliipsed and forgotten. In that case, they didn't so much attack Jackson, as they ignored and marginalised him.
--More and more, it seems to me that the function of the Democratic Party as it is currently constituted--and perhaps ALWAYS has been constituted--is to siphon off and coopt real dissent and demand for change from the left, while making sure that nothing, aside from cosmetics, really ever is changed. In that sense, the establishment Dems in D.C. are just as much in league with and ARE the powers of darkness as the Rethugs are.
Gore Vidal has always said that in the United States, we really only have ONE political party--the "Property Party"--that has two conservative factions, the one faction (GOP) being more reactionary and extreme than the other faction (the Dems.)
Here he is writing about the "Democratic Party" faction of the two-factioned "Property Party" in his 1972 essay, "Homage to Daniel Shays:"
'At the congressional level, one can see how the elite works even more clearly than at the presidential level, where enthusiasm for attractive candidates often blinds even the sharpest critic (not to mention, very often, the candidate himself) to the charade being enacted by the Property Party. It is in the House and the Senate that the day-by-day dirty work is done, and Bella Abzug gives a splendid account ([in her book] "Bella!") of her two years in the House, trying to represent her constituents and her conscience, to the amusement of a genial body of corrupt politicians whose votes are all too often for sale to the highest bidder, usually in the form of cash in white envelopes, if Robert N. Winter-Berger’s astonishing book "The Washington Pay-Off" is to be believed. . . .
'Bella Abzug was elected from Lower Manhattan to end the war, gain equal rights for women and blacks, and generally be herself, serving the unpropertied. A bright lawyer as well as a formidable self-publicist, she immediately struck the fancy of the press (when they get her full range, she will be dropped . . . .). All in all, Abzug rather likes the floor managers of the Property Party. They are good fun and she always knows where she stands with them. “The men in the Club here are very charming to me," which they can afford to be since “they have all the power.” They even “like to be entertained a bit. I don’t mean in a ha-ha funny way, but in an interesting way.”
'It is the liberals for whom she has real contempt. They have fallen for “the old crap, the anaesthesia of the liberals: If you want to get along, you’ve got to go along . . . very little men.” They would rather fight one another for such posts as House Majority leader than unite to keep a reactionary from continuing in that job.'
Gore Vidal has always said that in the United States, we really only have ONE political party--the "Property Party"--that has two conservative factions, the one faction (GOP) being more reactionary and extreme than the other faction (the Dems.)
Here he is writing about the "Democratic Party" faction of the two-factioned "Property Party" in his 1972 essay, "Homage to Daniel Shays:"
'At the congressional level, one can see how the elite works even more clearly than at the presidential level, where enthusiasm for attractive candidates often blinds even the sharpest critic (not to mention, very often, the candidate himself) to the charade being enacted by the Property Party. It is in the House and the Senate that the day-by-day dirty work is done, and Bella Abzug gives a splendid account ([in her book] "Bella!") of her two years in the House, trying to represent her constituents and her conscience, to the amusement of a genial body of corrupt politicians whose votes are all too often for sale to the highest bidder, usually in the form of cash in white envelopes, if Robert N. Winter-Berger’s astonishing book "The Washington Pay-Off" is to be believed. . . .
'Bella Abzug was elected from Lower Manhattan to end the war, gain equal rights for women and blacks, and generally be herself, serving the unpropertied. A bright lawyer as well as a formidable self-publicist, she immediately struck the fancy of the press (when they get her full range, she will be dropped . . . .). All in all, Abzug rather likes the floor managers of the Property Party. They are good fun and she always knows where she stands with them. “The men in the Club here are very charming to me," which they can afford to be since “they have all the power.” They even “like to be entertained a bit. I don’t mean in a ha-ha funny way, but in an interesting way.”
'It is the liberals for whom she has real contempt. They have fallen for “the old crap, the anaesthesia of the liberals: If you want to get along, you’ve got to go along . . . very little men.” They would rather fight one another for such posts as House Majority leader than unite to keep a reactionary from continuing in that job.'
remember, that task force included blueprints to iraq oil fields. they had plans in place for that country months before 9/11.
would those blueprints have been available to show the public, that would have helped a great deal in proving iraq wasn't about 9/11, iraq wasn't about a war on terror.
it was an opportunity of a lifetime blown. who knows how many years before we get back subpoena power again. how many years of bush criminality will be allowed to run rampant & unchecked - because the democratic party refused to act like an opposition.
remember, that task force included blueprints to iraq oil fields. they had plans in place for that country months before 9/11.
would those blueprints have been available to show the public, that would have helped a great deal in proving iraq wasn't about 9/11, iraq wasn't about a war on terror.
it was an opportunity of a lifetime blown. who knows how many years before we get back subpoena power again. how many years of bush criminality will be allowed to run rampant & unchecked - because the democratic party refused to act like an opposition.
"New leaders"....huh?
As a person who supported and still supports Dean, a loyal and successful Democrat who is a real live leader, all I can say is, follow him! Don't let the yapping dog press define him for you!
Any look at his record and look at him personally, you can see, he is the real thing. A sane Democrat who isn't a trillionaire.
The GOP is run by billionaires who have only one interest: keep unions dead and reward the rich. The average American right winger follows them because they are mostly racists who hate modernity.
The GOP rich love modernity which is why they are all hypocrites. Remember Bob Dole? He pops sex pills, divorces his wife and said he wanted to live back in Kansas and then never came back to even visit it?
See?
We have to not attack the DNC or our lost leaders, I don't care how craven they all are, our real enemy is the media and the millionaire/billionaire owners who want to evade taxes and evade responsibility. They are the ones who are turning us into fat, stupid people. They are the ones with the bait and switch game. They and the owners of our retail outlets want to have us live destructive lives and they try to lure us into making disasterous choices.
TV is killing us.
In pre TV days, the "Dean scream" would have never existed. There would be no image run over and over and over again. The Swift Boat liar tapes would not have run 24/7.
Hitler used the new media to run Germany straight to hell and our present rulers will do the same unless we turn off our TVs and go out into the community and begin the real fight for our lives and souls.
We have to make it a CRUSADE concerning the END OF OIL. This is something that is literally life and death and is directly connected with WWIII which will be all about oil and it is connected with our rising economic problems as we will be seeing the elderly and poor in the NE die this winter thanks to high fuel costs.
Our SUV s are not only insane, they are going to KILL US. We will die because of our SUV culture. It has no future at all. We are deluding ourselves if we pretend we will be driving these monsters in ten years.
Yikes.
"New leaders"....huh?
As a person who supported and still supports Dean, a loyal and successful Democrat who is a real live leader, all I can say is, follow him! Don't let the yapping dog press define him for you!
Any look at his record and look at him personally, you can see, he is the real thing. A sane Democrat who isn't a trillionaire.
The GOP is run by billionaires who have only one interest: keep unions dead and reward the rich. The average American right winger follows them because they are mostly racists who hate modernity.
The GOP rich love modernity which is why they are all hypocrites. Remember Bob Dole? He pops sex pills, divorces his wife and said he wanted to live back in Kansas and then never came back to even visit it?
See?
We have to not attack the DNC or our lost leaders, I don't care how craven they all are, our real enemy is the media and the millionaire/billionaire owners who want to evade taxes and evade responsibility. They are the ones who are turning us into fat, stupid people. They are the ones with the bait and switch game. They and the owners of our retail outlets want to have us live destructive lives and they try to lure us into making disasterous choices.
TV is killing us.
In pre TV days, the "Dean scream" would have never existed. There would be no image run over and over and over again. The Swift Boat liar tapes would not have run 24/7.
Hitler used the new media to run Germany straight to hell and our present rulers will do the same unless we turn off our TVs and go out into the community and begin the real fight for our lives and souls.
We have to make it a CRUSADE concerning the END OF OIL. This is something that is literally life and death and is directly connected with WWIII which will be all about oil and it is connected with our rising economic problems as we will be seeing the elderly and poor in the NE die this winter thanks to high fuel costs.
Our SUV s are not only insane, they are going to KILL US. We will die because of our SUV culture. It has no future at all. We are deluding ourselves if we pretend we will be driving these monsters in ten years.
Yikes.
elaine. i support dean. forgive me for being unclear. i meant replace the passive, establishment, beltway dems and their party hacks who've betrayed not only the rank and file but also the country in allowing bush to get away with what he has.
elaine. i support dean. forgive me for being unclear. i meant replace the passive, establishment, beltway dems and their party hacks who've betrayed not only the rank and file but also the country in allowing bush to get away with what he has.
Jeremiah Elias, I agree with you that we have a lot to learn from Bella Abzug mostly from her own observations but also as an early focus of the Republican-press hit machine. She took some of the earliest and hardest shots with some help by phony Democrats such as "hiz honor" Ed Koch.
With examples such as Koch and Zell we've got lots of dead wood to throw overboard.
Anyone who says that TV is the only game in political media is 99% right and it's not just the "news". Target number one should be the cable trash tabloid stations. From the froth on the top, C-Span, on down the sewer to FOX they are important parts of the Republican lie machine. The limited exposure Brian Lamb gives to some of "our" writers and a few hours of covering "our" events isn't worth the constant pushing of the Republican agenda the rest of the time.
Talk radio is also 99% a Republican sewer.
Jeremiah Elias, I agree with you that we have a lot to learn from Bella Abzug mostly from her own observations but also as an early focus of the Republican-press hit machine. She took some of the earliest and hardest shots with some help by phony Democrats such as "hiz honor" Ed Koch.
With examples such as Koch and Zell we've got lots of dead wood to throw overboard.
Anyone who says that TV is the only game in political media is 99% right and it's not just the "news". Target number one should be the cable trash tabloid stations. From the froth on the top, C-Span, on down the sewer to FOX they are important parts of the Republican lie machine. The limited exposure Brian Lamb gives to some of "our" writers and a few hours of covering "our" events isn't worth the constant pushing of the Republican agenda the rest of the time.
Talk radio is also 99% a Republican sewer.
i know better than to allow bullying from rove or the media into manuvering me towards a choice i do not support.
too many dems worry about what the media thinks and allow it to manipulate them. e.g. media says dean is nuts, so it must be so.
see for example how many dem strategist are now parroting david brooks "dems are out of touch with the country" fallacy. are they not strong enough to resist manufactured convention wisdom? do they not recognize it? it's really rather frightening how susceptible they are to rightwing opinion. guess i shouldn't be suprised though. after all they supported an unjust war least they be attacked for being "weak" and "unpatriotic." did they not realize this only exposed them for how weak they really were?
i know better than to allow bullying from rove or the media into manuvering me towards a choice i do not support.
too many dems worry about what the media thinks and allow it to manipulate them. e.g. media says dean is nuts, so it must be so.
see for example how many dem strategist are now parroting david brooks "dems are out of touch with the country" fallacy. are they not strong enough to resist manufactured convention wisdom? do they not recognize it? it's really rather frightening how susceptible they are to rightwing opinion. guess i shouldn't be suprised though. after all they supported an unjust war least they be attacked for being "weak" and "unpatriotic." did they not realize this only exposed them for how weak they really were?
This comment is really a carry over from a thread last night -- usually I would keep these thoughts to myself unless another commenter is discusssing the same issues. I know this won't be popular here. I see many of the same issues here -- a great preocupation as to who is a troll and little tolerance for those that are willing to support the democrats unless they say, "yes, so and so, you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT -- how foolish of me to think that I might agree with you for another reason."
I choose not to criticize Kerry -- he was between a rock and a hard place and given the discourse in this country right now (and the discourse the repugs created under Bill Clinton), I have no reason to be confident that his administration would have successfully dealt with the pile of feces the smirking chimp has left Americans.
I guess all I am trying to say is that many of the points that Josh (and Atrios by creating this thread) are making at the "MACRO" level of the democratic party are also valid at the "MICRO" level of democratic support. I hope no one takes this as an insult -- it is just a valid point to discuss (without playing the "blame game") because we cannot build coalitions across diverse communities based on common needs without a more enlightened, open-minded attitudes.
Sorry if this sounds like I am picking on anyone -- I am not. I am just reacting to a story that Atrios thought was important enought to post and comment on and I am adding my 2 cents. Please don't look at these comments as a "put-down." Can't we just have reasonable dialogs based on where we are today, where we collectively want to go, and how we can build a team to get us there. Oh, and how about just ignoring the trolls instead of creating 300 thread insults because EVERYONE except the kings and queens are trolls or should "go cheney themselves."
This comment is really a carry over from a thread last night -- usually I would keep these thoughts to myself unless another commenter is discusssing the same issues. I know this won't be popular here. I see many of the same issues here -- a great preocupation as to who is a troll and little tolerance for those that are willing to support the democrats unless they say, "yes, so and so, you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT -- how foolish of me to think that I might agree with you for another reason."
I choose not to criticize Kerry -- he was between a rock and a hard place and given the discourse in this country right now (and the discourse the repugs created under Bill Clinton), I have no reason to be confident that his administration would have successfully dealt with the pile of feces the smirking chimp has left Americans.
I guess all I am trying to say is that many of the points that Josh (and Atrios by creating this thread) are making at the "MACRO" level of the democratic party are also valid at the "MICRO" level of democratic support. I hope no one takes this as an insult -- it is just a valid point to discuss (without playing the "blame game") because we cannot build coalitions across diverse communities based on common needs without a more enlightened, open-minded attitudes.
Sorry if this sounds like I am picking on anyone -- I am not. I am just reacting to a story that Atrios thought was important enought to post and comment on and I am adding my 2 cents. Please don't look at these comments as a "put-down." Can't we just have reasonable dialogs based on where we are today, where we collectively want to go, and how we can build a team to get us there. Oh, and how about just ignoring the trolls instead of creating 300 thread insults because EVERYONE except the kings and queens are trolls or should "go cheney themselves."
This comment is really a carry over from a thread last night -- usually I would keep these thoughts to myself unless another commenter is discusssing the same issues. I know this won't be popular here. I see many of the same issues here -- a great preocupation as to who is a troll and little tolerance for those that are willing to support the democrats unless they say, "yes, so and so, you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT -- how foolish of me to think that I might agree with you for another reason."
I choose not to criticize Kerry -- he was between a rock and a hard place and given the discourse in this country right now (and the discourse the repugs created under Bill Clinton), I have no reason to be confident that his administration would have successfully dealt with the pile of feces the smirking chimp has left Americans.
I guess all I am trying to say is that many of the points that Josh (and Atrios by creating this thread) are making at the "MACRO" level of the democratic party are also valid at the "MICRO" level of democratic support. I hope no one takes this as an insult -- it is just a valid point to discuss (without playing the "blame game") because we cannot build coalitions across diverse communities based on common needs without a more enlightened, open-minded attitudes.
Sorry if this sounds like I am picking on anyone -- I am not. I am just reacting to a story that Atrios thought was important enought to post and comment on and I am adding my 2 cents. Please don't look at these comments as a "put-down." Can't we just have reasonable dialogs based on where we are today, where we collectively want to go, and how we can build a team to get us there. Oh, and how about just ignoring the trolls instead of creating 300 thread insults because EVERYONE except the kings and queens are trolls or should "go cheney themselves."
This comment is really a carry over from a thread last night -- usually I would keep these thoughts to myself unless another commenter is discusssing the same issues. I know this won't be popular here. I see many of the same issues here -- a great preocupation as to who is a troll and little tolerance for those that are willing to support the democrats unless they say, "yes, so and so, you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT -- how foolish of me to think that I might agree with you for another reason."
I choose not to criticize Kerry -- he was between a rock and a hard place and given the discourse in this country right now (and the discourse the repugs created under Bill Clinton), I have no reason to be confident that his administration would have successfully dealt with the pile of feces the smirking chimp has left Americans.
I guess all I am trying to say is that many of the points that Josh (and Atrios by creating this thread) are making at the "MACRO" level of the democratic party are also valid at the "MICRO" level of democratic support. I hope no one takes this as an insult -- it is just a valid point to discuss (without playing the "blame game") because we cannot build coalitions across diverse communities based on common needs without a more enlightened, open-minded attitudes.
Sorry if this sounds like I am picking on anyone -- I am not. I am just reacting to a story that Atrios thought was important enought to post and comment on and I am adding my 2 cents. Please don't look at these comments as a "put-down." Can't we just have reasonable dialogs based on where we are today, where we collectively want to go, and how we can build a team to get us there. Oh, and how about just ignoring the trolls instead of creating 300 thread insults because EVERYONE except the kings and queens are trolls or should "go cheney themselves."
HEY YOU FUCKIN' MORONS, QUIT KILLING PEOPLE IN MY NAME! I would also appreciate it if you would leave me out of your BS politics.
HEY YOU FUCKIN' MORONS, QUIT KILLING PEOPLE IN MY NAME! I would also appreciate it if you would leave me out of your BS politics.
Way too many people who are more interested in how important they are than whether the party gets anywhere, and the culture of exclusion isn't helping anyone.
julia
Fully agree, well said. Sure we need to do what we can to "clean house" on the national level -- but isn't some of this also true at other levels? Isn't this also a valid point to talk about (we don't need to point fingers) in our "reality-based" community? Just asking...
Way too many people who are more interested in how important they are than whether the party gets anywhere, and the culture of exclusion isn't helping anyone.
julia
Fully agree, well said. Sure we need to do what we can to "clean house" on the national level -- but isn't some of this also true at other levels? Isn't this also a valid point to talk about (we don't need to point fingers) in our "reality-based" community? Just asking...
Anyone who thinks Dems should run out and start throwing other Dems overboard, should just sit down, take a deep breath and relax. The best electoral weapon Dems have is a silly, unmotivated, lame duck incumbent who thinks he has a mandate.
While I agree with buld your post, I respectfully disagree with you point that now is not the time to make changes within the party. How can it hurt to look at the direction provided by keep people and possibly replacing them, if for no other reason than we need "fresh blood." Now would be the time to do it so that we are ready for 2008. You do raise some excellent points, however.
Anyone who thinks Dems should run out and start throwing other Dems overboard, should just sit down, take a deep breath and relax. The best electoral weapon Dems have is a silly, unmotivated, lame duck incumbent who thinks he has a mandate.
While I agree with buld your post, I respectfully disagree with you point that now is not the time to make changes within the party. How can it hurt to look at the direction provided by keep people and possibly replacing them, if for no other reason than we need "fresh blood." Now would be the time to do it so that we are ready for 2008. You do raise some excellent points, however.
OT: Reading down through these threads again it occours to me that Name Stealer is doing us a great service. While posting impromptu comments many of us say things that are unclear or even wrong. With Name Stealer we all have deniablity. Any horseshit with our handle on it should immediately be assumed to be from him. Of course those handles who spew only horseshit voluntarily give up this vaulable service that Name Stealer has provided for us.
Thank you, Name Stealer.
OT: Reading down through these threads again it occours to me that Name Stealer is doing us a great service. While posting impromptu comments many of us say things that are unclear or even wrong. With Name Stealer we all have deniablity. Any horseshit with our handle on it should immediately be assumed to be from him. Of course those handles who spew only horseshit voluntarily give up this vaulable service that Name Stealer has provided for us.
Thank you, Name Stealer.
Has Donna Brazille ever won a campaign?
Has Donna Brazille ever won a campaign?
Maybe he shoulda snorted pounds of blow, been a raging alcoholic, gone AWOL and ran a few failed businesses, screwed and disappointed numerous people but redeemed himself after finding Jesus?
Stinky
Great points -- too bad Kerry wasn't close to any of the Ken Lay CEO types as well. What kind of moron even begins to suggest that windsurfing was an unpresidential thing. Am I suppose to believe that falling off a bike shows resolve? That choking on a pretzel demonstrates initiatives. That playing rancher on a plantation style mansion proves a bond with the "working man?" Ooooooh Puuuuullllleeeeaaaaaaazzzzzzzzzzz
Maybe he shoulda snorted pounds of blow, been a raging alcoholic, gone AWOL and ran a few failed businesses, screwed and disappointed numerous people but redeemed himself after finding Jesus?
Stinky
Great points -- too bad Kerry wasn't close to any of the Ken Lay CEO types as well. What kind of moron even begins to suggest that windsurfing was an unpresidential thing. Am I suppose to believe that falling off a bike shows resolve? That choking on a pretzel demonstrates initiatives. That playing rancher on a plantation style mansion proves a bond with the "working man?" Ooooooh Puuuuullllleeeeaaaaaaazzzzzzzzzzz
We don’t eat at the same restaurants. I don’t know how many politicians in town that are leaders of our party who voluntarily go to Applebee’s, unless it’s for work."
WTF? Like eating crappy frozen entrees at diehard republican corporation would somehow change things. Could it be possible that this is a metaphor and no one was expected to get indigestion or give their hard-earned dollars to the repugs (which applebees does)? If that's the way you see it...
We don’t eat at the same restaurants. I don’t know how many politicians in town that are leaders of our party who voluntarily go to Applebee’s, unless it’s for work."
WTF? Like eating crappy frozen entrees at diehard republican corporation would somehow change things. Could it be possible that this is a metaphor and no one was expected to get indigestion or give their hard-earned dollars to the repugs (which applebees does)? If that's the way you see it...
And after the purge?
Obama is good. Good thing Atrios is not political. He would be really good.
And after the purge?
Obama is good. Good thing Atrios is not political. He would be really good.
A GUIDE TO U.S. NEWSPAPERS
1. The Wall Street Journal is read by the people who run the country.
2. The New York Times is read by people who think they run the country.
3. The Washington Post is read by people who think they should run the country.
4. USA Today is read by people who think they ought to run the country but don't really understand the Washington Post. They do, however like the smog statistics shown in pie charts.
5. The Los Angeles Times is read by people who wouldn't mind running the country, if they could spare the time, and if they didn't have to leave L.A. to do it.
6. The Boston Globe is read by people whose parents used to run the country.
7. The New York Daily News is read by people who aren't too sure who's running the country, and don't really care as long as they can get a seat on the train.
8. The New York Post is read by people who don't care who's running the country either, as long as they do something really scandalous, preferably while intoxicated.
9. The San Francisco Chronicle is read by people who aren't sure there is a country, or that anyone is running it; but whoever it is, they oppose all that they stand for. There are occasional exceptions if the leaders are handicapped minority, feministic atheist dwarfs, who also happen to be illegal aliens from ANY country or galaxy as long as they are democrats.
10. The Miami Herald is read by people who are running another country, but need the baseball scores.
A GUIDE TO U.S. NEWSPAPERS
1. The Wall Street Journal is read by the people who run the country.
2. The New York Times is read by people who think they run the country.
3. The Washington Post is read by people who think they should run the country.
4. USA Today is read by people who think they ought to run the country but don't really understand the Washington Post. They do, however like the smog statistics shown in pie charts.
5. The Los Angeles Times is read by people who wouldn't mind running the country, if they could spare the time, and if they didn't have to leave L.A. to do it.
6. The Boston Globe is read by people whose parents used to run the country.
7. The New York Daily News is read by people who aren't too sure who's running the country, and don't really care as long as they can get a seat on the train.
8. The New York Post is read by people who don't care who's running the country either, as long as they do something really scandalous, preferably while intoxicated.
9. The San Francisco Chronicle is read by people who aren't sure there is a country, or that anyone is running it; but whoever it is, they oppose all that they stand for. There are occasional exceptions if the leaders are handicapped minority, feministic atheist dwarfs, who also happen to be illegal aliens from ANY country or galaxy as long as they are democrats.
10. The Miami Herald is read by people who are running another country, but need the baseball scores.
hey, windsurfing was the compromise aides came up with, to get kerry to give up cavorting on his polo ponies.
hey, windsurfing was the compromise aides came up with, to get kerry to give up cavorting on his polo ponies.
Mr Bill,
I think the CEO of Applebes is a dem, though you're right that it's a frivolous point.
Mr Bill,
I think the CEO of Applebes is a dem, though you're right that it's a frivolous point.
Has anyone else noticed that "national news" that has been bestowed on Ahrnold? I am in the midwest and saw a local news show feature his visit to Japan promoting Californian products -- very strange "local news," its not actually even "national news." Kerry got a great deal of exposure and did generate a considerable amount of support -- only the smirking chimp has ever gotten more votes (issues about cout-counts aside). It would be foolish not to build on this. I am sure we will see Ahrnold be given a prominent stature in the repug party and we will need "big dogs" to put that one down. Can't we give Kerry a little respect for what he has done, stay behind him until there is a clear, more effective alternative, and quit playing into Karl's divide and conquer strategy?
Has anyone else noticed that "national news" that has been bestowed on Ahrnold? I am in the midwest and saw a local news show feature his visit to Japan promoting Californian products -- very strange "local news," its not actually even "national news." Kerry got a great deal of exposure and did generate a considerable amount of support -- only the smirking chimp has ever gotten more votes (issues about cout-counts aside). It would be foolish not to build on this. I am sure we will see Ahrnold be given a prominent stature in the repug party and we will need "big dogs" to put that one down. Can't we give Kerry a little respect for what he has done, stay behind him until there is a clear, more effective alternative, and quit playing into Karl's divide and conquer strategy?
I think the CEO of Applebes is a dem, though you're right that it's a frivolous point.
NYMary
Thanks for correcting me if I am wrong -- I truly appreciate that. Applebees was a Sinclair advertiser that I called (probably found the link here, though I visit other sites). The day I called, I was told that there was an emergency and no one could come to the phone.
I asked, "what kind of 'song and dance" is that?" and was told the police and fire department was there and the building was evacuated. CEO withstanding, I believe they give big bucks to the repugs -- if someone can show me I am wrong, I would certainly appreciate your help. Thanks!
I think the CEO of Applebes is a dem, though you're right that it's a frivolous point.
NYMary
Thanks for correcting me if I am wrong -- I truly appreciate that. Applebees was a Sinclair advertiser that I called (probably found the link here, though I visit other sites). The day I called, I was told that there was an emergency and no one could come to the phone.
I asked, "what kind of 'song and dance" is that?" and was told the police and fire department was there and the building was evacuated. CEO withstanding, I believe they give big bucks to the repugs -- if someone can show me I am wrong, I would certainly appreciate your help. Thanks!
OT: Reading down through these threads again it occours to me that Name Stealer is doing us a great service.
Excellent observation! Yes, we do all make mistakes and I guess that is one way to deal with them. IMHO, this "name" thing is really a disservice to our cause -- some people assume that their opinions are more important and that I should know who they are. Yesterday, someone was complaining that another used their 4 letter handle - even though that post used a different email and homepage. Like I own the name Bill!! I would prefer to read anonymous comments (even though they drive the kings and queens here absolutely nuts) because I prefer the clarity of the idea and the merits of the issue carry the thread. Obviously, I am in the minority here -- but a great deal of our "trolls" and "name stealing" would go away if we stuck to the issues and not who is important or who has been posting comments for a longer period of time (as if that somehow means something). The more I think about it, anon is the way to go!
OT: Reading down through these threads again it occours to me that Name Stealer is doing us a great service.
Excellent observation! Yes, we do all make mistakes and I guess that is one way to deal with them. IMHO, this "name" thing is really a disservice to our cause -- some people assume that their opinions are more important and that I should know who they are. Yesterday, someone was complaining that another used their 4 letter handle - even though that post used a different email and homepage. Like I own the name Bill!! I would prefer to read anonymous comments (even though they drive the kings and queens here absolutely nuts) because I prefer the clarity of the idea and the merits of the issue carry the thread. Obviously, I am in the minority here -- but a great deal of our "trolls" and "name stealing" would go away if we stuck to the issues and not who is important or who has been posting comments for a longer period of time (as if that somehow means something). The more I think about it, anon is the way to go!
I've got a small request. Can I send one of those e-cartoon boxing-gloves-on-a-spring to whoever uses "spot on". What are we? English? It works like this: if you use "spot on", I get to send an email that contains one of those boxing glove thingies. You open the attachment and get clobbered. The boxing glove just comes right through the monitor and *POW*!!!.
It's only fair.
I've got a small request. Can I send one of those e-cartoon boxing-gloves-on-a-spring to whoever uses "spot on". What are we? English? It works like this: if you use "spot on", I get to send an email that contains one of those boxing glove thingies. You open the attachment and get clobbered. The boxing glove just comes right through the monitor and *POW*!!!.
It's only fair.
Quick summation: we knocked a war-time president who had an extraordinarily high approval rating down to a level where he was beatable. Had we not done what we had done (expose him for being a really, really bad president) this election would have been a *real* landslide.
Were a few mistakes made? Sure. But certainly no more than the other side made. They had bin Laden, two wars, fear, tax cuts, a malleable press, and blind patriotism on their side. We had the truth. Unfortunately, a large swath of America can't handle the truth.
Could we have done better? Maybe. (I still think a more seasoned Wes Clark would have kicked W's ass) But let's remember we did pretty damn good.
Quick summation: we knocked a war-time president who had an extraordinarily high approval rating down to a level where he was beatable. Had we not done what we had done (expose him for being a really, really bad president) this election would have been a *real* landslide.
Were a few mistakes made? Sure. But certainly no more than the other side made. They had bin Laden, two wars, fear, tax cuts, a malleable press, and blind patriotism on their side. We had the truth. Unfortunately, a large swath of America can't handle the truth.
Could we have done better? Maybe. (I still think a more seasoned Wes Clark would have kicked W's ass) But let's remember we did pretty damn good.
I've been wanting them to fire the consultants for several months, even years now.
After all that the democrats did to win this election but still lose I think it is fortunate that at least I can get some victory out of defeat by seeing these moronic consultants fired and out on their asses.
MYOB'
.
I've been wanting them to fire the consultants for several months, even years now.
After all that the democrats did to win this election but still lose I think it is fortunate that at least I can get some victory out of defeat by seeing these moronic consultants fired and out on their asses.
MYOB'
.
Someone suggested-it might have been Digby-that the DNC should pick up and move to a more Dem friendly, real people place like Chicago or Philadelphia to get away from the "booboisie" in Washington.
Someone suggested-it might have been Digby-that the DNC should pick up and move to a more Dem friendly, real people place like Chicago or Philadelphia to get away from the "booboisie" in Washington.
Obviously, I am in the minority here
Yes, you are.
But that doesn't stop you from trying to force your will on others, does it?
We're all going to keep doing the same thing, because we like it. If you don't, feel free to go somewhere else.
Obviously, I am in the minority here
Yes, you are.
But that doesn't stop you from trying to force your will on others, does it?
We're all going to keep doing the same thing, because we like it. If you don't, feel free to go somewhere else.
IMO, Kerry ran about as strong a campaign as he could, given that he started off hamstrung by voting for the war authorization. People aren't fools. They knew that vote was a craven and cynical political move. As those usually are, it was bad politics as well.
We can't afford to lose Kerry. We can't afford to lose Dean. We could probably afford to lose Lieberman, but all in good time.
What we do need are new faces to go on the endless TV blabfest and make the Democratic case. Don't know about you, but every time I see Donna Brazile, I wince. Every time I see Begala and Carville, I want to beat my head on the coffee table. Every time I see McAuliffe, I want to punch him in the nose.
Why can't Atrios horn his way onto Chris Matthews? Just for the change of pace.
IMO, Kerry ran about as strong a campaign as he could, given that he started off hamstrung by voting for the war authorization. People aren't fools. They knew that vote was a craven and cynical political move. As those usually are, it was bad politics as well.
We can't afford to lose Kerry. We can't afford to lose Dean. We could probably afford to lose Lieberman, but all in good time.
What we do need are new faces to go on the endless TV blabfest and make the Democratic case. Don't know about you, but every time I see Donna Brazile, I wince. Every time I see Begala and Carville, I want to beat my head on the coffee table. Every time I see McAuliffe, I want to punch him in the nose.
Why can't Atrios horn his way onto Chris Matthews? Just for the change of pace.
>Obviously, I am in the minority here
Yes, you are.
But that doesn't stop you from trying to force your will on others, does it?
We're all going to keep doing the same thing, because we like it. If you don't, feel free to go somewhere else.<
Jeebus where have I heard that before.
>Obviously, I am in the minority here
Yes, you are.
But that doesn't stop you from trying to force your will on others, does it?
We're all going to keep doing the same thing, because we like it. If you don't, feel free to go somewhere else.<
Jeebus where have I heard that before.
Lovely, lovely! Come to my side little beauties, I will make you powerful as I have made my other children powerful. Moon, George, Karl,Jerry, Ralph - I love you all. The Universe is ours now.
Lovely, lovely! Come to my side little beauties, I will make you powerful as I have made my other children powerful. Moon, George, Karl,Jerry, Ralph - I love you all. The Universe is ours now.
Yes, my dears, I have grand plans for humanity ans my favorite son Sun will carry them out. George, you are not my favorite, Sun is. George, if you want to be #2, you will do as Sun says. You must begin with the domination of all women (we are doing a good job in many places of the globe, but America must now follow). Make them submissive, own their wombs. Kill everyone who stands in the way. Infiltrate Washington. Purchase all media. Conquer the world!
Yes, my dears, I have grand plans for humanity ans my favorite son Sun will carry them out. George, you are not my favorite, Sun is. George, if you want to be #2, you will do as Sun says. You must begin with the domination of all women (we are doing a good job in many places of the globe, but America must now follow). Make them submissive, own their wombs. Kill everyone who stands in the way. Infiltrate Washington. Purchase all media. Conquer the world!
You would have to start with the Clinton's....
You would have to start with the Clinton's....
OK, a little embarrasing that I was on this site, but...look at howardstern.com under Today's Hot Topics. Interesting breakdown of red/blue states by average IQ. Top 17 states were all blue; bottom 25 all red. Hmmm...
OK, a little embarrasing that I was on this site, but...look at howardstern.com under Today's Hot Topics. Interesting breakdown of red/blue states by average IQ. Top 17 states were all blue; bottom 25 all red. Hmmm...
"There is no end of Democrats in Washington and certainly in every state across this country that often eat at Applebee's or Bennigan's or Coco's, and not simply for research purposes."
That's a classic. Josh really cracks me up sometimes.
"There is no end of Democrats in Washington and certainly in every state across this country that often eat at Applebee's or Bennigan's or Coco's, and not simply for research purposes."
That's a classic. Josh really cracks me up sometimes.
But that doesn't stop you from trying to force your will on others, does it?
So who died and made you god, pie -- and since when is posting a comment "forcing your will!" Please, take what you want and leave the rest. Glad you know it all -- and thanks for not sharing the logic of your opinions with me. If I ever start talking like you -- please take me out and shoot me! Good luck building coalitions with your attitude! It looks to me like you are more comfortable sitting in your own feces than actually working with others to do something about it. Can we have a big "POOR ME!"
But that doesn't stop you from trying to force your will on others, does it?
So who died and made you god, pie -- and since when is posting a comment "forcing your will!" Please, take what you want and leave the rest. Glad you know it all -- and thanks for not sharing the logic of your opinions with me. If I ever start talking like you -- please take me out and shoot me! Good luck building coalitions with your attitude! It looks to me like you are more comfortable sitting in your own feces than actually working with others to do something about it. Can we have a big "POOR ME!"
Everytime I see a commercial for Applebee's I think of the movie "OfficeSpace".
Fifteen is the minimum ..m'kay ......Brian has 37 pieces of flair m'kay and terrific smile.
Everytime I see a commercial for Applebee's I think of the movie "OfficeSpace".
Fifteen is the minimum ..m'kay ......Brian has 37 pieces of flair m'kay and terrific smile.
I think it is worth recalling that the Democrats had a number of excellently qualified and inspiring candidates to choose from, and managed to choose one of the best of them. These candidates made some mistakes in the campaigns they ran in the primaries, as did Kerry in the general election, and it is possible that these mistakes might have cost their party control of the White House. None of that puts these people beyond criticism; all of it suggests that such criticism should be conducted in a spirit of construction, rather than destruction.
That said, there's no reason to expect those at the DNC or DLC or any other part of the Democratic party apparatus to go willingly or quietly. What is required is for those with better ideas, and especially those willing to frame a coherent, attractive, and progressive message to step forward and take the power that ideas and message provides. We who are on their side should encourage them, while refusing to rat snipe at those who currently hold the power. Change is required; organization is needed; real leaders are asked to step forward and fill the void.
I think it is worth recalling that the Democrats had a number of excellently qualified and inspiring candidates to choose from, and managed to choose one of the best of them. These candidates made some mistakes in the campaigns they ran in the primaries, as did Kerry in the general election, and it is possible that these mistakes might have cost their party control of the White House. None of that puts these people beyond criticism; all of it suggests that such criticism should be conducted in a spirit of construction, rather than destruction.
That said, there's no reason to expect those at the DNC or DLC or any other part of the Democratic party apparatus to go willingly or quietly. What is required is for those with better ideas, and especially those willing to frame a coherent, attractive, and progressive message to step forward and take the power that ideas and message provides. We who are on their side should encourage them, while refusing to rat snipe at those who currently hold the power. Change is required; organization is needed; real leaders are asked to step forward and fill the void.
Yeah, no doubt history will conclude that Kerry was the wrong candidate from the wrong state in the wrong election - that at least seems to be the developing consensus. Then again, as long as the US election system continues to operate on a level of fairness and integrity that would be an embarrassment to any self-respecting third rate banana republic, I'm not sure it matters very much how good any future Democratic presidential candidate might be, nor how sage and resourceful the people around him.
However - casting about for a silver lining in all this - one comforting thing about being part of the perpetual opposition Washington Generals party is that all you really have to do is show up and go through the motions, since it's all guaranteed to come out the same way in the end regardless. Meantime, a lot of hopeless incompetents and clueless wonders who might otherwise be reduced to sleeping on heating grates end up being gainfully employed.
So you can easily look at it as a glass half full kind of thing, if you want to take the optimistic view.
..
Yeah, no doubt history will conclude that Kerry was the wrong candidate from the wrong state in the wrong election - that at least seems to be the developing consensus. Then again, as long as the US election system continues to operate on a level of fairness and integrity that would be an embarrassment to any self-respecting third rate banana republic, I'm not sure it matters very much how good any future Democratic presidential candidate might be, nor how sage and resourceful the people around him.
However - casting about for a silver lining in all this - one comforting thing about being part of the perpetual opposition Washington Generals party is that all you really have to do is show up and go through the motions, since it's all guaranteed to come out the same way in the end regardless. Meantime, a lot of hopeless incompetents and clueless wonders who might otherwise be reduced to sleeping on heating grates end up being gainfully employed.
So you can easily look at it as a glass half full kind of thing, if you want to take the optimistic view.
..
This piece by Arianna Huffington offers another elegant proof that the Democratic Party's only major problem is its mostly tone-deaf consultant class.
Cameron Kerry, David Thorne, and Paul Vallely, three amateurs, hit on the idea of "Truth and Trust" as a campaign theme. Who other than Shrum & Co. doesn't think that was a good idea?
Kerry wanted to hit back at the Swifties right away. Cahill and Shrum said no, don't elevate the attacks to that level. This is not, as some have suggested, an understandable error. In the age of the AM-Internet-FNC echo chamber, anybody should have seen that these attacks would become big news quickly.
The campaign didn't come up with a defense of the vote on the $87 billion. It certainly would have been difficult! It's not as if they could have had Kerry say, "I voted to give the troops that equipment, but it was irresponsible to cut taxes for the wealthy in a time of war." It's not as if Bush had threatened to veto the same bill if it had provisions he didn' like. It isn't as if even after Kerry's gaffe in April the assertive repetition of these two counter-arguments would have done any good.
Read the Huffington piece. Even the more competent Clintonistas wanted to sidestep the war as campign issue. Jesus.
I read more sensible political strategy in the posts and comments on this site, Kos, and other sites in one hour than in I read in a year of the consultant class's quotes and interviews.
Atrios wants the job of DNC chair to be more defined. I propose these hiring guidelines: that she/he promise to ignore the Beltway idiots (remember the "inevitable" Clinton resignation, btw?) and listen to the Democrats at every level who live and work outside D.C.
This piece by Arianna Huffington offers another elegant proof that the Democratic Party's only major problem is its mostly tone-deaf consultant class.
Cameron Kerry, David Thorne, and Paul Vallely, three amateurs, hit on the idea of "Truth and Trust" as a campaign theme. Who other than Shrum & Co. doesn't think that was a good idea?
Kerry wanted to hit back at the Swifties right away. Cahill and Shrum said no, don't elevate the attacks to that level. This is not, as some have suggested, an understandable error. In the age of the AM-Internet-FNC echo chamber, anybody should have seen that these attacks would become big news quickly.
The campaign didn't come up with a defense of the vote on the $87 billion. It certainly would have been difficult! It's not as if they could have had Kerry say, "I voted to give the troops that equipment, but it was irresponsible to cut taxes for the wealthy in a time of war." It's not as if Bush had threatened to veto the same bill if it had provisions he didn' like. It isn't as if even after Kerry's gaffe in April the assertive repetition of these two counter-arguments would have done any good.
Read the Huffington piece. Even the more competent Clintonistas wanted to sidestep the war as campign issue. Jesus.
I read more sensible political strategy in the posts and comments on this site, Kos, and other sites in one hour than in I read in a year of the consultant class's quotes and interviews.
Atrios wants the job of DNC chair to be more defined. I propose these hiring guidelines: that she/he promise to ignore the Beltway idiots (remember the "inevitable" Clinton resignation, btw?) and listen to the Democrats at every level who live and work outside D.C.
Kerry utterly failed. Period.
All I can say is, fuck Iowa, fuck New Hampshire, and fuck anyone who voted for Kerry in the Primaries.
He lost to the worst president in history, and he pandered to the fundys and morons in the process.
Kerry = loser.
Kerry supporters = losers.
Kerry utterly failed. Period.
All I can say is, fuck Iowa, fuck New Hampshire, and fuck anyone who voted for Kerry in the Primaries.
He lost to the worst president in history, and he pandered to the fundys and morons in the process.
Kerry = loser.
Kerry supporters = losers.
Sean:
Agree. Must clear the decks. The same old guards ie Shrum and his crews got rich by offering bad advises. Clinton's power is waning so please do not call on him for help anymore. Clinton is not occupying the WH today.
Kerry's people threw this election. Why am I saying that? Kerry was attacked by the same group SWB liars in 96 when he ran for reelection but Kerry responded back then.
Kerry's people threw this election, no question about it.
I hope Dems will not support any candidate who employ these same adsisers. I will not presonally.
Sean:
Agree. Must clear the decks. The same old guards ie Shrum and his crews got rich by offering bad advises. Clinton's power is waning so please do not call on him for help anymore. Clinton is not occupying the WH today.
Kerry's people threw this election. Why am I saying that? Kerry was attacked by the same group SWB liars in 96 when he ran for reelection but Kerry responded back then.
Kerry's people threw this election, no question about it.
I hope Dems will not support any candidate who employ these same adsisers. I will not presonally.
"Then again, as long as the US election system continues to operate on a level of fairness and integrity that would be an embarrassment to any self-respecting third rate banana republic,"
Couldn't agree more!
Last week when Atrios was upset with those DEMANDING recounts and investigations of voter fraud, it became clear to me that Kos and Atrios, along with most Dem leaders, were all too willing to overlook the fact that MY VOTE might not be counted!
Perhaps they felt that being "included" by the Dem machine, business as usual/wait til 2008 was more important than raising their voices for COUNTING ALL VOTES!
The Dem policy of going along to get along gave US george.
Why vote at all if the only votes to count in 2008 will be those for Jeb?
"Then again, as long as the US election system continues to operate on a level of fairness and integrity that would be an embarrassment to any self-respecting third rate banana republic,"
Couldn't agree more!
Last week when Atrios was upset with those DEMANDING recounts and investigations of voter fraud, it became clear to me that Kos and Atrios, along with most Dem leaders, were all too willing to overlook the fact that MY VOTE might not be counted!
Perhaps they felt that being "included" by the Dem machine, business as usual/wait til 2008 was more important than raising their voices for COUNTING ALL VOTES!
The Dem policy of going along to get along gave US george.
Why vote at all if the only votes to count in 2008 will be those for Jeb?
I'm usually with you, but Kerry was a bad candidate from the start. He was only able to stay in the race because he mortgaged his house and used the proceeds to buy the Iowa Caucus. People were fooled into believing that his War Hero status would innoculate him, as you pointed out in another thread. We should have nominated Dean. They would have attacked him. But he would have answered by calling them liars and corporate whores - and it wold have stuck. I worked hard for Kerry even tho I really can't stand him. His failure to pull off a win against the weakest incumbent since Jimmy Carter is an indictment of his poor qualifications as a candidate. When will we realize that people don't vore for a resume for President? They vote for a person. And they want tough, genuine people to vote for.
I'm usually with you, but Kerry was a bad candidate from the start. He was only able to stay in the race because he mortgaged his house and used the proceeds to buy the Iowa Caucus. People were fooled into believing that his War Hero status would innoculate him, as you pointed out in another thread. We should have nominated Dean. They would have attacked him. But he would have answered by calling them liars and corporate whores - and it wold have stuck. I worked hard for Kerry even tho I really can't stand him. His failure to pull off a win against the weakest incumbent since Jimmy Carter is an indictment of his poor qualifications as a candidate. When will we realize that people don't vore for a resume for President? They vote for a person. And they want tough, genuine people to vote for.
I'm jumping to the bottom before I've read the whole thread, because I have tro say that I think the world of John Kerry. I think he was a great candidate. Let's spend the next four years showing what lies were used (and still believed) to bring him down. Then he really will be immune to anything that had to do with anything that happened pre-2004.
He has amazing and admirable attributes that I didn't think you could find in the public sector anymore. If he keeps himself visible and the leader of a reasonably vigorous opposition, I say we go with him in '08.
I'm jumping to the bottom before I've read the whole thread, because I have tro say that I think the world of John Kerry. I think he was a great candidate. Let's spend the next four years showing what lies were used (and still believed) to bring him down. Then he really will be immune to anything that had to do with anything that happened pre-2004.
He has amazing and admirable attributes that I didn't think you could find in the public sector anymore. If he keeps himself visible and the leader of a reasonably vigorous opposition, I say we go with him in '08.
If you want the "leadership" to stop taking you for granted, reregister as a Green. You don't have to mean it, it's a tactical move. The technocratic poll driven monkeys couldn't care less about ideas, just "framing issues" and "crafting messages" and like horseshit. They only respond to shifting indices.
On the positive/negative side:
1. The U.S. ecomomy is on a downhill slide; increasing internal and external debt, increasing real unemployment, increasing energy costs, and declining domestic manufacturing base. Let's all sing a chorus of "Don't Cry For Me, Argentina"
2. The end of oil. Peak production world wide in four to eight years. The point of increasing demand out-stripping available supply is already happening. This doesn't just mean no gas for your SUV's, but increasing costs and decreasing supplies of inorganic fertilisers and pesticides to support unsustainable mono-cultural agro-business, and feedstocks for pharmaceuticals, plastics, and numerous manufacturing processes.
3. Global climate change. Particularily vulnerable is the Midwest, likely to suffer flooding, drought, and extreme weather events. Anyone who doesn't think this isn't an immediate problem doesn't get outdoors much.
4. The U.S. military will be bogged down for the forseeable future in Iraq. Other trouble spots are waiting to emerge, further straining our economy.
If we can deflect the establishment of a one party theocratic police state for another four years, we should be in pretty good shape.
Meanwhile, if you have to drive, buy a hybrid; invest in renewable energy; plant a vegetable garden; get to know your neighbors; cultivate kind-heartedness, compassion, and friendliness, even towards wing-nuts; convert your business into a worker-owned co-op; feed the poor, comfort the sick, shelter the homeless, and show the world you're better Christians than the superstitious reactionary whackos, even if you are a godless atheist.
If you want the "leadership" to stop taking you for granted, reregister as a Green. You don't have to mean it, it's a tactical move. The technocratic poll driven monkeys couldn't care less about ideas, just "framing issues" and "crafting messages" and like horseshit. They only respond to shifting indices.
On the positive/negative side:
1. The U.S. ecomomy is on a downhill slide; increasing internal and external debt, increasing real unemployment, increasing energy costs, and declining domestic manufacturing base. Let's all sing a chorus of "Don't Cry For Me, Argentina"
2. The end of oil. Peak production world wide in four to eight years. The point of increasing demand out-stripping available supply is already happening. This doesn't just mean no gas for your SUV's, but increasing costs and decreasing supplies of inorganic fertilisers and pesticides to support unsustainable mono-cultural agro-business, and feedstocks for pharmaceuticals, plastics, and numerous manufacturing processes.
3. Global climate change. Particularily vulnerable is the Midwest, likely to suffer flooding, drought, and extreme weather events. Anyone who doesn't think this isn't an immediate problem doesn't get outdoors much.
4. The U.S. military will be bogged down for the forseeable future in Iraq. Other trouble spots are waiting to emerge, further straining our economy.
If we can deflect the establishment of a one party theocratic police state for another four years, we should be in pretty good shape.
Meanwhile, if you have to drive, buy a hybrid; invest in renewable energy; plant a vegetable garden; get to know your neighbors; cultivate kind-heartedness, compassion, and friendliness, even towards wing-nuts; convert your business into a worker-owned co-op; feed the poor, comfort the sick, shelter the homeless, and show the world you're better Christians than the superstitious reactionary whackos, even if you are a godless atheist.
Jeremiah Elias = Troll?
Say something positive. You want out with Kerry? What's in his place? Dean? I was a Dean man at the start - loved his attitude - but my brother (an unemployed construction worker) was able to come up with ripping rags on the guy - how is THAT supposed to survive the primary crucible where you are attacked from the best that all sides can bring? - sorry, y, that's the way the internacine wars of the primaries are.
jps, Raya & NYMary - Kerry, for better or worse, is the face of the party right now. I personally was won over by the guy, and I say we run with him. People know him, and if we can expose the lies were told about him, we can make him very difficult to go negative on.
dieselcreek - Huh? you knew Kerry was a loser in red america from start? Jeez, now I really DO feel disconnected from my countrymen. As an all-my-life Northeasterner, I'm sick of feeling like an occupied country. OUR last president was ASSASSINATED by red-staters, since then - virtually my entire life - we've been told how far removed from america we are. If middle-america doesn't understand or appreciate Kerry's very substantial qualities, then we really aren't part of the same culture.
GOD, I am so tired of feeling like I live in an occupied country!
Jeremiah Elias = Troll?
Say something positive. You want out with Kerry? What's in his place? Dean? I was a Dean man at the start - loved his attitude - but my brother (an unemployed construction worker) was able to come up with ripping rags on the guy - how is THAT supposed to survive the primary crucible where you are attacked from the best that all sides can bring? - sorry, y, that's the way the internacine wars of the primaries are.
jps, Raya & NYMary - Kerry, for better or worse, is the face of the party right now. I personally was won over by the guy, and I say we run with him. People know him, and if we can expose the lies were told about him, we can make him very difficult to go negative on.
dieselcreek - Huh? you knew Kerry was a loser in red america from start? Jeez, now I really DO feel disconnected from my countrymen. As an all-my-life Northeasterner, I'm sick of feeling like an occupied country. OUR last president was ASSASSINATED by red-staters, since then - virtually my entire life - we've been told how far removed from america we are. If middle-america doesn't understand or appreciate Kerry's very substantial qualities, then we really aren't part of the same culture.
GOD, I am so tired of feeling like I live in an occupied country!
Smoking man - as a smoking man myself - I agree - any major advisor, mover or shaker involved with this campaign needs to find other work. That's our problem - not our values, not our candidates. The people we have manning the towers don't seem to care when the enemy approaches. Have they been bribed?
Smoking man - as a smoking man myself - I agree - any major advisor, mover or shaker involved with this campaign needs to find other work. That's our problem - not our values, not our candidates. The people we have manning the towers don't seem to care when the enemy approaches. Have they been bribed?
That's our problem - not our values, not our candidates. The people we have manning the towers don't seem to care when the enemy approaches. Have they been bribed?
You do entertain that thought, don't you?
I will never understand why they ran away on the $87 billion and Kerry's defense voting record. The facts were on their side. By the Bushie logic, if a vote against one fiscal year's overall defense budget was a vote against specific weapons systems, then it was a vote to abolish the military. And if a vote in favor of an omnibus auth. was a vote for those weapons systems, then Kerry voted for 16 out of 19 budgets. I'm a Kerry fan myself, one of those Iowa Democrats who favored Dean but like Kerry the more I saw of him.
That's our problem - not our values, not our candidates. The people we have manning the towers don't seem to care when the enemy approaches. Have they been bribed?
You do entertain that thought, don't you?
I will never understand why they ran away on the $87 billion and Kerry's defense voting record. The facts were on their side. By the Bushie logic, if a vote against one fiscal year's overall defense budget was a vote against specific weapons systems, then it was a vote to abolish the military. And if a vote in favor of an omnibus auth. was a vote for those weapons systems, then Kerry voted for 16 out of 19 budgets. I'm a Kerry fan myself, one of those Iowa Democrats who favored Dean but like Kerry the more I saw of him.
Hey Geeno:
You have the nerve to call me a "troll?" Did you read all that I posted on this thread? Or does somebody who doesn't agree with the straight Democratic Party line constitute a "troll" for your purposes?
Listen, you idiot:
Go fuck yourself!!
Hey Geeno:
You have the nerve to call me a "troll?" Did you read all that I posted on this thread? Or does somebody who doesn't agree with the straight Democratic Party line constitute a "troll" for your purposes?
Listen, you idiot:
Go fuck yourself!!
"We had unprecedented loyalty and cohesiveness in this campaign"
How can you really believe that with the campaign a continual internal struggle between the Kennedy People and the Clintonistas who came on late in the course?
"We had unprecedented loyalty and cohesiveness in this campaign"
How can you really believe that with the campaign a continual internal struggle between the Kennedy People and the Clintonistas who came on late in the course?
"I'd like to see the whole concept of the DLC booted out of the Democratic party. They have been a very very destructive force. They haven't done one constructive thing for the party in years."
They gave you eight years of Clinton and almost four years of Gore. What their role is in the loss of control of congress is agruable
"I'd like to see the whole concept of the DLC booted out of the Democratic party. They have been a very very destructive force. They haven't done one constructive thing for the party in years."
They gave you eight years of Clinton and almost four years of Gore. What their role is in the loss of control of congress is agruable
"Can someone point me to an article which explains why continual loser Shrum is constantly in demand by Dem presidential candidates?"
He is one of the best speech-writers of our era, but definitely is "0-for" in presidential campaigns going back to McGovern/
"Can someone point me to an article which explains why continual loser Shrum is constantly in demand by Dem presidential candidates?"
He is one of the best speech-writers of our era, but definitely is "0-for" in presidential campaigns going back to McGovern/
- sorry, y, that's the way the internacine wars of the primaries are.
oh? which other dem candidate did roger stone go after besides dean? and why did elements of the dem establishment decide it's ok to work hand in hand with gop operatives. that is not business as usual.
- sorry, y, that's the way the internacine wars of the primaries are.
oh? which other dem candidate did roger stone go after besides dean? and why did elements of the dem establishment decide it's ok to work hand in hand with gop operatives. that is not business as usual.
Don't confuse throwing feces with stating that people like myself said early on that Kerry had no chance and that Howard Dean was a shoe-in.
Don't confuse throwing feces with stating that people like myself said early on that Kerry had no chance and that Howard Dean was a shoe-in.
His failure to pull off a win against the weakest incumbent since Jimmy Carter is an indictment of his poor qualifications as a candidate.
The weakest incumbent since Jimmy Carter?
What the fuck are you on?
This incumbent:
-had the unquestioning support of the whole country, both those who agreed with him and those who didn't, behind him for a good long time after 9/11. In three years, the glow still hasn't faded into insignificance like it should have.
-was a sitting wartime president. Those don't get defeated in America.
-owned the mainstream media body and soul
-had talk radio disseminating his propaganda for free
-had lackeys who reacted to any criticism of him by smearing the critic as a "Bush-hater"
-had a strong,cult-like following of fanatical supporters who defended him as "good" and "sincere" and "Christian" no matter what he did, who saw him as a semidivine savior, who countered all dissent against him with threats and name-calling, who were willing to swear loyalty oaths to hear him speak, and who were fired up over the gay marriage issue
-had henchmen willing to grossly lie and distort for him
-was willing to grossly lie and distort himself.
If this is weakness, then I want to be weak!
What did Kerry have? Kerry had the facts (never important) and a tiny segment of Democrats who were riled up about Bush (yes, tiny. The number of Bush-haters is greatly exaggerated). The media smeared him and ripped him to shreds. He had the unpleasant task that all Democrats do: trying to win the base and the independents (much easier for Repubs, since their base is much more loyal). And yet he got 48% of the vote, carrying his base (Nader was a non-factor) AND the independents. His popularity rose whenever people saw him unfiltered, he drew and wowed large crowds at events uncovered by the mainstream media, and in most people's eyes he won all three debates.
Not bad.
His failure to pull off a win against the weakest incumbent since Jimmy Carter is an indictment of his poor qualifications as a candidate.
The weakest incumbent since Jimmy Carter?
What the fuck are you on?
This incumbent:
-had the unquestioning support of the whole country, both those who agreed with him and those who didn't, behind him for a good long time after 9/11. In three years, the glow still hasn't faded into insignificance like it should have.
-was a sitting wartime president. Those don't get defeated in America.
-owned the mainstream media body and soul
-had talk radio disseminating his propaganda for free
-had lackeys who reacted to any criticism of him by smearing the critic as a "Bush-hater"
-had a strong,cult-like following of fanatical supporters who defended him as "good" and "sincere" and "Christian" no matter what he did, who saw him as a semidivine savior, who countered all dissent against him with threats and name-calling, who were willing to swear loyalty oaths to hear him speak, and who were fired up over the gay marriage issue
-had henchmen willing to grossly lie and distort for him
-was willing to grossly lie and distort himself.
If this is weakness, then I want to be weak!
What did Kerry have? Kerry had the facts (never important) and a tiny segment of Democrats who were riled up about Bush (yes, tiny. The number of Bush-haters is greatly exaggerated). The media smeared him and ripped him to shreds. He had the unpleasant task that all Democrats do: trying to win the base and the independents (much easier for Repubs, since their base is much more loyal). And yet he got 48% of the vote, carrying his base (Nader was a non-factor) AND the independents. His popularity rose whenever people saw him unfiltered, he drew and wowed large crowds at events uncovered by the mainstream media, and in most people's eyes he won all three debates.
Not bad.
Don't confuse throwing feces with stating that people like myself said early on that Kerry had no chance and that Howard Dean was a shoe-in.
Whatever. Dean has no patience or endurance and was awful during the primary debates. He would have lost in a landslide.
Don't confuse throwing feces with stating that people like myself said early on that Kerry had no chance and that Howard Dean was a shoe-in.
Whatever. Dean has no patience or endurance and was awful during the primary debates. He would have lost in a landslide.
"I'm not a member of any organized political party. I'm a Democrat."
--Will Rogers
If that ain't a true statement, I don't know what is.
"I'm not a member of any organized political party. I'm a Democrat."
--Will Rogers
If that ain't a true statement, I don't know what is.
Josh Marshall has another post up about this -- and this one's even more on point. I don't want to give my own background, but let's just say the person Josh quotes has it EXACTLY right:
>
Josh Marshall has another post up about this -- and this one's even more on point. I don't want to give my own background, but let's just say the person Josh quotes has it EXACTLY right:
>
Josh does not get it. He says "Democrats frequently console or rally themselves with the fact that most voters agree with them on individual issues." That's so much BS, but he so insulated he wouldn't know. Which issue would he be talking about? I'm from the 51+ %. I can't think of an seperating issue that I agree with Democrats on. There are more than few that Democrats and Republicna actually agree on...OMG!
Josh does not get it. He says "Democrats frequently console or rally themselves with the fact that most voters agree with them on individual issues." That's so much BS, but he so insulated he wouldn't know. Which issue would he be talking about? I'm from the 51+ %. I can't think of an seperating issue that I agree with Democrats on. There are more than few that Democrats and Republicna actually agree on...OMG!
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