I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Is this thing on?
Is this thing on?
OT already, but Maureen Dowd is taking on Toady Hall this morning:
W. and Vice want to extend their personal control over bureaucracies they thought had impeded their foreign policy. It's alarming to learn that they regard their first-term foreign policy - a trumped-up war and bungled occupation, an estrangement from our old allies and proliferating nuclear ambitions in North Korea, Iran and Russia - as impeded. What will an untrammeled one look like?
http://tinyurl.com/52x3s
OT already, but Maureen Dowd is taking on Toady Hall this morning:
W. and Vice want to extend their personal control over bureaucracies they thought had impeded their foreign policy. It's alarming to learn that they regard their first-term foreign policy - a trumped-up war and bungled occupation, an estrangement from our old allies and proliferating nuclear ambitions in North Korea, Iran and Russia - as impeded. What will an untrammeled one look like?
http://tinyurl.com/52x3s
I'm no economist, Atrios. Who does this even help?
I'm no economist, Atrios. Who does this even help?
IIRC, businesses offered health insurance to their employees after WWII as an incentive to attract employees. Now what other incentives can they offer to attract good employees? I really don't see them increasing salaries-wages.
IIRC, businesses offered health insurance to their employees after WWII as an incentive to attract employees. Now what other incentives can they offer to attract good employees? I really don't see them increasing salaries-wages.
don't you see? first pass to tax breaks and then as a comprimise, kill the insurance part. So it looks moderate. The hell with the deficit. That is how we got in so much trouble already with out the general electorate objecting. Reckless,sure. But it has been a winning hand so far.
don't you see? first pass to tax breaks and then as a comprimise, kill the insurance part. So it looks moderate. The hell with the deficit. That is how we got in so much trouble already with out the general electorate objecting. Reckless,sure. But it has been a winning hand so far.
This is actually a good thing - as it will force the Health Care Industry - Doctors, Hospitals, etc.) to demand a "bailout" as more and more people show up uninsured (an unable to pay). As soon as large Hospital Corporations start to file bankruptcy a "bailout" will be developed. And that bailout will be - Government sponsored Health Insurance.
That so many will have to suffer during this period is just an indication of how sick our society really is.
This is actually a good thing - as it will force the Health Care Industry - Doctors, Hospitals, etc.) to demand a "bailout" as more and more people show up uninsured (an unable to pay). As soon as large Hospital Corporations start to file bankruptcy a "bailout" will be developed. And that bailout will be - Government sponsored Health Insurance.
That so many will have to suffer during this period is just an indication of how sick our society really is.
This is all part of the Grover Norquist grand scheme to push the entire tax burden onto workers and remove ALL taxes from accumulated wealth in any form.
The secondary effect is to accelerate the decline of middle class workers. This is intended.
This is all part of the Grover Norquist grand scheme to push the entire tax burden onto workers and remove ALL taxes from accumulated wealth in any form.
The secondary effect is to accelerate the decline of middle class workers. This is intended.
So they get rid of all taxes on the passive income of the rich, shift the tax burden onto the working middle class, and make health care less affordable, all with the stroke of a single pen.
I think extends the time limit on my permission to refer to the 51% who voted for Bush as fucking idiots.
So they get rid of all taxes on the passive income of the rich, shift the tax burden onto the working middle class, and make health care less affordable, all with the stroke of a single pen.
I think extends the time limit on my permission to refer to the 51% who voted for Bush as fucking idiots.
Start hoarding all the pills you can grab!
Start hoarding all the pills you can grab!
I liked life alot better when the only Grover I knew was a fuzzy puppet.
I liked life alot better when the only Grover I knew was a fuzzy puppet.
They want to raise taxes!! They want to raise taxes!!
They want to raise taxes!! They want to raise taxes!!
Hurry Argentina!
More Regressive -- Big Time!
Bigger and Bigger Burden on Payroll Related Income -- The richer you are, the less your total income comes from payroll. Wage slaves already pay completely for SS and Medicare. Why not everything!
Hello Emigration to red states -- which tend to have much lower state taxes relative to blue states.
Or Blue states becoming more like red states in their tax policies (which they are already) -- gaming revenues.
This reminds of one of my favorite lines of all times from a Daymon Wayans routine -- on being thrown into a paralyzing headlock (for real) by Mike Tyson who was messing around but very dominant (in a "you're my bithc" type way), it occured to Wayans that the toughest thing that he could say to Tyson if he told him that he was going to fuck him in the ass was, "Oh yeah, for how long?"
Hurry Argentina!
More Regressive -- Big Time!
Bigger and Bigger Burden on Payroll Related Income -- The richer you are, the less your total income comes from payroll. Wage slaves already pay completely for SS and Medicare. Why not everything!
Hello Emigration to red states -- which tend to have much lower state taxes relative to blue states.
Or Blue states becoming more like red states in their tax policies (which they are already) -- gaming revenues.
This reminds of one of my favorite lines of all times from a Daymon Wayans routine -- on being thrown into a paralyzing headlock (for real) by Mike Tyson who was messing around but very dominant (in a "you're my bithc" type way), it occured to Wayans that the toughest thing that he could say to Tyson if he told him that he was going to fuck him in the ass was, "Oh yeah, for how long?"
It is a return to the early 20th century when this society was seperated by wealth. When those who could afford health care received it, and those who could not were dependent upon charities or allowed to die. Faith based hospitals ect.
It is a return to the early 20th century when this society was seperated by wealth. When those who could afford health care received it, and those who could not were dependent upon charities or allowed to die. Faith based hospitals ect.
Check out Boondocks this morning. It says it all.
http://www.uclick.com/client/wpc/bo/
Check out Boondocks this morning. It says it all.
http://www.uclick.com/client/wpc/bo/
Jeepers H. Christmas. This is amazing! Boy oh by. Chimpy loves spending that Capitol he stole.
Jeepers H. Christmas. This is amazing! Boy oh by. Chimpy loves spending that Capitol he stole.
Bah, comprehensive health care just isn't meant for the little people.
Bah, comprehensive health care just isn't meant for the little people.
But wait! There's more:
"But already, the contours of a tax plan are taking shape: lower individual and corporate tax rates and steps to broaden the base of taxation and promote growth by cutting taxes on investment."
See any cause/effect problem here?
Promote growth by...standing on your head!...by whistling Dixie!...by inserting something here and claiming it will promote growth!....
"Pamela F. Olson, a former Bush Treasury official in close contact with administration tax planners, said the president will pursue a tax system where all income -- whether from wages, dividends, capital gains or interest -- is taxed only once. That would mean eliminating taxes on dividends and capital gains paid out of fully taxed corporate profits. Most investment gains are currently taxed at 15 percent."
Corporate profits are not taxed twice. The net effect of this will be to remove ANY taxes on some corporate profits. I suggest we all incorporate, pronto!
"The administration will also push hard for large savings accounts that could shelter thousands of dollars of deposits each year from taxation on investment gains..."
Mind you, to benefit from this, you need to be able to save money in the first place. If you do not have extra money to save because you are now paying for an exorbitant personal health care policy due to your employer dropping your health care because they eliminated the tax deduction - well, tough!
But wait! There's more:
"But already, the contours of a tax plan are taking shape: lower individual and corporate tax rates and steps to broaden the base of taxation and promote growth by cutting taxes on investment."
See any cause/effect problem here?
Promote growth by...standing on your head!...by whistling Dixie!...by inserting something here and claiming it will promote growth!....
"Pamela F. Olson, a former Bush Treasury official in close contact with administration tax planners, said the president will pursue a tax system where all income -- whether from wages, dividends, capital gains or interest -- is taxed only once. That would mean eliminating taxes on dividends and capital gains paid out of fully taxed corporate profits. Most investment gains are currently taxed at 15 percent."
Corporate profits are not taxed twice. The net effect of this will be to remove ANY taxes on some corporate profits. I suggest we all incorporate, pronto!
"The administration will also push hard for large savings accounts that could shelter thousands of dollars of deposits each year from taxation on investment gains..."
Mind you, to benefit from this, you need to be able to save money in the first place. If you do not have extra money to save because you are now paying for an exorbitant personal health care policy due to your employer dropping your health care because they eliminated the tax deduction - well, tough!
OT, but by the way....
This is evidently fictional.
Rove said this yesterday--
"During the Roosevelt Room nomination ceremony yesterday, Rove recalled that he had once asked Spellings out on a date in the early 1980s when they were both single but she had turned him down "brutally."
"It has taken my ego decades to recover," he joked.
The only problem? Spellings got married in 79. So unless he was asking a married woman out on a date, this is fiction.
OT, but by the way....
This is evidently fictional.
Rove said this yesterday--
"During the Roosevelt Room nomination ceremony yesterday, Rove recalled that he had once asked Spellings out on a date in the early 1980s when they were both single but she had turned him down "brutally."
"It has taken my ego decades to recover," he joked.
The only problem? Spellings got married in 79. So unless he was asking a married woman out on a date, this is fiction.
Rove dates women?
Rove dates women?
That's our Dubya. Building a bridge to the thirteenth century. Why doesn't he have Sir Rumsfeld and Baron Cheney ride their horses through the peasants' cabbage fields and be done with it?
That's our Dubya. Building a bridge to the thirteenth century. Why doesn't he have Sir Rumsfeld and Baron Cheney ride their horses through the peasants' cabbage fields and be done with it?
"and take other steps intended to simplify the system and encourage economic growth"
For Christ's sake. We have more than twenty years of hard experience to show that this is the biggest economic fraud in the history of money. Reagan, Bush I should have been enough to show that the Republican economic theory is a damned smoke screen to cover up their theft of the entire United States treasury AND the earnings of the American People. They won't be satisfied until we are all reduced to serfdom under their oligarchy.
Any "journalist" who goes along with this smoke and mirrors show brands himself as a willing tool of the oligarchs.
Call it what it is. The biggest theft and enslavement of a people in modern history.
"and take other steps intended to simplify the system and encourage economic growth"
For Christ's sake. We have more than twenty years of hard experience to show that this is the biggest economic fraud in the history of money. Reagan, Bush I should have been enough to show that the Republican economic theory is a damned smoke screen to cover up their theft of the entire United States treasury AND the earnings of the American People. They won't be satisfied until we are all reduced to serfdom under their oligarchy.
Any "journalist" who goes along with this smoke and mirrors show brands himself as a willing tool of the oligarchs.
Call it what it is. The biggest theft and enslavement of a people in modern history.
When I was in the US, I was paying for my personal health insurance...what I could get personally was far better that what my employer offered.
However, when I turned 50, my monthly preimums rose from $300 a moth to over $650 a month...seems that the age group between 50 and 65 is where a whole lotta heath problems start to appear.
Also, I contacted the State concerning the increase and was told that the increase was justifiable under State law.
What really is gonna sink in hard is when people find out just how much of their disposalbe income will be eaten up by medical costs. Without being part of a "medical group", you pay out the nose for preimums, co-pays for exams, lab work, and drugs.
Maybe people will realize that the "tax breaks" given in the first term, will be swallowed whole plus more in the second term.
Maybe those who did vote for Bush will be able to collectively pool their resources and create religious group coverage for actively participating church-going parishoners, but the rest of us will be left out in the cold.
The mid-term elections are far enough away that maybe we can give them a run for the gold.
regards
.
When I was in the US, I was paying for my personal health insurance...what I could get personally was far better that what my employer offered.
However, when I turned 50, my monthly preimums rose from $300 a moth to over $650 a month...seems that the age group between 50 and 65 is where a whole lotta heath problems start to appear.
Also, I contacted the State concerning the increase and was told that the increase was justifiable under State law.
What really is gonna sink in hard is when people find out just how much of their disposalbe income will be eaten up by medical costs. Without being part of a "medical group", you pay out the nose for preimums, co-pays for exams, lab work, and drugs.
Maybe people will realize that the "tax breaks" given in the first term, will be swallowed whole plus more in the second term.
Maybe those who did vote for Bush will be able to collectively pool their resources and create religious group coverage for actively participating church-going parishoners, but the rest of us will be left out in the cold.
The mid-term elections are far enough away that maybe we can give them a run for the gold.
regards
.
We are utterly fucked. Welcome to reign of King George, the naked Emperor. When is the tea party?
We are utterly fucked. Welcome to reign of King George, the naked Emperor. When is the tea party?
Rove dates women?
Huh?
Are they the same ones Drudge does? Does Barbra Walters have a niece?
Rove dates women?
Huh?
Are they the same ones Drudge does? Does Barbra Walters have a niece?
NY Mary
The removal of tax on Interest, Dividends & Capital Gains is the removal of taxes on people's investments. On interest, you only benefit if you have enough savings that you generate $$$$$. On Dividends, you only benefit if you own BIG BLOCKS of stock and it generates $$$$$$. On capital gains, you only benefit if the family home you sell has more than $500,000 in equity, you do benefit if you sell your vacation homes for a profit and you benefit if you buy and sell the stock for a profit (a short term capital gain) that generates the dividends that are to be non taxed.
In short, those that got will get more.
The "revenue neutral" parts will destroy the middle class and prevent most poor from ever reaching the middle class. The state and local tax deductions are particularly important to home acquisition and ownership. Especially as the localities have raised RE taxes to make up for federal shortfalls ( such as NCLB)
The big thing about removing the tax on dividends was that the Repugs argued it was double taxation. Same thing with income taxes, same labor taxed twice. But I bet we don't hear them say that.
As a small business owner, being able to deduct health insurance, was crucial to my ability to provide employees insurnace.
NY Mary
The removal of tax on Interest, Dividends & Capital Gains is the removal of taxes on people's investments. On interest, you only benefit if you have enough savings that you generate $$$$$. On Dividends, you only benefit if you own BIG BLOCKS of stock and it generates $$$$$$. On capital gains, you only benefit if the family home you sell has more than $500,000 in equity, you do benefit if you sell your vacation homes for a profit and you benefit if you buy and sell the stock for a profit (a short term capital gain) that generates the dividends that are to be non taxed.
In short, those that got will get more.
The "revenue neutral" parts will destroy the middle class and prevent most poor from ever reaching the middle class. The state and local tax deductions are particularly important to home acquisition and ownership. Especially as the localities have raised RE taxes to make up for federal shortfalls ( such as NCLB)
The big thing about removing the tax on dividends was that the Repugs argued it was double taxation. Same thing with income taxes, same labor taxed twice. But I bet we don't hear them say that.
As a small business owner, being able to deduct health insurance, was crucial to my ability to provide employees insurnace.
This is rope a dope. Have democrats scream about scrapping the tax deduction for health insurance. Bush says
in the "spirit of unity' we will keep that deduction if you will just pass the rest of my tax breaks for the wealthy. Media will
say this is a sign of the new moderate voice of GWB. Democrats will proudly say they defended the insurance of the poor.
Bush will help make the most powerful parts of society more powerful. The deficit will rise. And we will all pay for it down the road.
And merrily we go........
This is rope a dope. Have democrats scream about scrapping the tax deduction for health insurance. Bush says
in the "spirit of unity' we will keep that deduction if you will just pass the rest of my tax breaks for the wealthy. Media will
say this is a sign of the new moderate voice of GWB. Democrats will proudly say they defended the insurance of the poor.
Bush will help make the most powerful parts of society more powerful. The deficit will rise. And we will all pay for it down the road.
And merrily we go........
Atrios cut the article off before the part when Bush is quoted as saying "Let they eat cake."
Atrios cut the article off before the part when Bush is quoted as saying "Let they eat cake."
NYMary,
Just read MoDo and it made my skin tingle. Yikes! Imagine GWBI on crack. If these guys cheneyed things up good last term, imagine what they'll do THIS time.
Wonder how that Ohio recount is going.
NYMary,
Just read MoDo and it made my skin tingle. Yikes! Imagine GWBI on crack. If these guys cheneyed things up good last term, imagine what they'll do THIS time.
Wonder how that Ohio recount is going.
Has anyone see the new ending to Eminem's "Mosh"?
Has anyone see the new ending to Eminem's "Mosh"?
Time to secede yet?
Time to secede yet?
As a NYer the previous item chills me getting rid of the deduction for state and local taxes. Personally I pay $5-6,000 a year but the other impact would be to force states to cut spending and the states that would be most screwed by this are the blue states. This looks like a clever way for Bush to force states to rethink the funding of social programs and additionally to withhold the adding of benefits for gay couples. On one blog yesterday, there was talk of Liberals now using state rights to advance our causes, this however would severly hinder this prospect.
As a NYer the previous item chills me getting rid of the deduction for state and local taxes. Personally I pay $5-6,000 a year but the other impact would be to force states to cut spending and the states that would be most screwed by this are the blue states. This looks like a clever way for Bush to force states to rethink the funding of social programs and additionally to withhold the adding of benefits for gay couples. On one blog yesterday, there was talk of Liberals now using state rights to advance our causes, this however would severly hinder this prospect.
Held over from the Barone thread which I couldn't get my computer to bring up.
"And us bloggers are always being accused of contributing to vitriol..."
Could it be that one of the things they hate the most about the blogs are the comments? They are so thin skinned to begin with, just hate it when they get corrections and complaints (listen to NPR's listener letters).
It could be that its the reader comments that will make the blogs evolve into a superior form of jounalism. It could also be that the attitude of our kept "news" media stems from their contempt for the people. They're always insulting us with their patronizing stereotypes and promotion of establishment lies. There's hardly one you can really trust.
Held over from the Barone thread which I couldn't get my computer to bring up.
"And us bloggers are always being accused of contributing to vitriol..."
Could it be that one of the things they hate the most about the blogs are the comments? They are so thin skinned to begin with, just hate it when they get corrections and complaints (listen to NPR's listener letters).
It could be that its the reader comments that will make the blogs evolve into a superior form of jounalism. It could also be that the attitude of our kept "news" media stems from their contempt for the people. They're always insulting us with their patronizing stereotypes and promotion of establishment lies. There's hardly one you can really trust.
This was absolutely not the first thing that I needed to read this morning. I was grumpy to start with.
Scrapping the business tax deduction for employer-provided health insurance? Are they fucking kidding?
We all know the health care system in this country is a joke anyway. The only thing holding it together for over half of America is the tax break greed of most employers.
If it's broke, kick it in the teeth to finish it off.
God save us from these cretins.
Of course there is always a silver lining. Maybe when it's 120 million uninsured instead of a mere 44 million, people will pay attention.
This was absolutely not the first thing that I needed to read this morning. I was grumpy to start with.
Scrapping the business tax deduction for employer-provided health insurance? Are they fucking kidding?
We all know the health care system in this country is a joke anyway. The only thing holding it together for over half of America is the tax break greed of most employers.
If it's broke, kick it in the teeth to finish it off.
God save us from these cretins.
Of course there is always a silver lining. Maybe when it's 120 million uninsured instead of a mere 44 million, people will pay attention.
This is rope a dope.
Spot on -- was ralph nader right after all? I know that will not be a popular statement here -- just asking.
This is rope a dope.
Spot on -- was ralph nader right after all? I know that will not be a popular statement here -- just asking.
"...and encourage economic growth...."
That's a very odd statement.
The intend may be to encourage business to grow, but the fuel for the growth will be the population, at large.
This reminds me of the way taxes in Nevada are regulated. A fishing license costs an arm and a leg. That's because the State has determined that if a resident wishes to participate in the sport, then they should pay for the costs the States spends for providing the sanctuarys and the fish.
Same goes for licensing an auto. The newer the auto, the more you pay in taxes to get your tags.
It all boils down to the same principle...pay as you go. If you want the fish, hunt, drive, or get medical services, you have to pay for the service. Otherwise you should find some other sport within your budget, walk instead of driving, or take better care of yourself.
Slavery is still illegal, but they can always import more foriegn workers will to work for peanuts and don't care for benefits.
regards
.
"...and encourage economic growth...."
That's a very odd statement.
The intend may be to encourage business to grow, but the fuel for the growth will be the population, at large.
This reminds me of the way taxes in Nevada are regulated. A fishing license costs an arm and a leg. That's because the State has determined that if a resident wishes to participate in the sport, then they should pay for the costs the States spends for providing the sanctuarys and the fish.
Same goes for licensing an auto. The newer the auto, the more you pay in taxes to get your tags.
It all boils down to the same principle...pay as you go. If you want the fish, hunt, drive, or get medical services, you have to pay for the service. Otherwise you should find some other sport within your budget, walk instead of driving, or take better care of yourself.
Slavery is still illegal, but they can always import more foriegn workers will to work for peanuts and don't care for benefits.
regards
.
That's our Dubya. Building a bridge to the thirteenth century.
Heh. Good one.
That's our Dubya. Building a bridge to the thirteenth century.
Heh. Good one.
for years my Re-Puke sister has been bitching and moaning about the grievous burden place on her and her husband (small business owners)- taxes taxes taxes, the government threatening their ability to prosper, and in particular, how hard it was for them to pay for even a minimally decent health care plan for themselves and their small group of employees.
She even on one occasion, looked me in the eye, and said the good insurance plan I have with my state job was paid for by her and her husand having to go without.
In short, she's the classic aggrieved victimized citizen that turned out for Bushco by the gazillions.
So how are she and the others like her feeling this morning with this news? The news that their savior the boy king is making it even harder? I don't understand the tax code intricacies so I don't know if this is going to relieve anything else but it sounds like a big bag of shit to me.
too bad she and I haven't spoken to each other since long before the election, or I'd ask her myself.
for years my Re-Puke sister has been bitching and moaning about the grievous burden place on her and her husband (small business owners)- taxes taxes taxes, the government threatening their ability to prosper, and in particular, how hard it was for them to pay for even a minimally decent health care plan for themselves and their small group of employees.
She even on one occasion, looked me in the eye, and said the good insurance plan I have with my state job was paid for by her and her husand having to go without.
In short, she's the classic aggrieved victimized citizen that turned out for Bushco by the gazillions.
So how are she and the others like her feeling this morning with this news? The news that their savior the boy king is making it even harder? I don't understand the tax code intricacies so I don't know if this is going to relieve anything else but it sounds like a big bag of shit to me.
too bad she and I haven't spoken to each other since long before the election, or I'd ask her myself.
rope a dope.
Since when has this adminstration done anything to balance it's tax breaks for the wealthy.
Merely creating a distraction to have liberals frothing at the mouth, while the straight out tax breaks for the wealthy
get passed unnoticed.
Seems to be working pretty well from what I see here.
rope a dope.
Since when has this adminstration done anything to balance it's tax breaks for the wealthy.
Merely creating a distraction to have liberals frothing at the mouth, while the straight out tax breaks for the wealthy
get passed unnoticed.
Seems to be working pretty well from what I see here.
Watch for the reverse judo flip. This is so outrageous that they are probably trying to distract from something else in the proposal.
Watch for the reverse judo flip. This is so outrageous that they are probably trying to distract from something else in the proposal.
Well, there goes my health insurance. Damn, we're turning into a Third World Country before my eyes at Clockwork Orange speed.
Well, there goes my health insurance. Damn, we're turning into a Third World Country before my eyes at Clockwork Orange speed.
...the administration plans to push major amendments that would shield interest, dividends and capitals gains from taxation... To pay for them, the administration is considering eliminating the deduction of state and local taxes on federal income tax returns and scrapping the business tax deduction for employer-provided health insurance...
This isn't open class warfare why?????
...the administration plans to push major amendments that would shield interest, dividends and capitals gains from taxation... To pay for them, the administration is considering eliminating the deduction of state and local taxes on federal income tax returns and scrapping the business tax deduction for employer-provided health insurance...
This isn't open class warfare why?????
So how are she and the others like her feeling this morning with this news?
You mean how is she feeling about the fact that trial lawyers like John Edwards just cost her a tax break because of excessive law suits and that Bush is trying to remedy the situation?
How should she feel? Bush is a "moral" man who was chosen by God.
So how are she and the others like her feeling this morning with this news?
You mean how is she feeling about the fact that trial lawyers like John Edwards just cost her a tax break because of excessive law suits and that Bush is trying to remedy the situation?
How should she feel? Bush is a "moral" man who was chosen by God.
This was absolutely not the first thing that I needed to read this morning. I was grumpy to start with.
It is, unfortunately, or really should be, the first thing every American should read and hear about this morning.
Instead, for example the Today show is going to talk about the Clinton Library and the wingnuts who claim that they alter history or some such shit. I turned it off after the intor to the show.
My wife and I have sent this article, which we actually know about thanks to a troll from last night (thank you troll), to all the Bush voters we know (which is lots of them)around the country. Only a couple of them are part of the "owner/investor class." The large majority are part of the "working class."
Sort of a pleasant "fuck you very much" to each and every one of them.
This was absolutely not the first thing that I needed to read this morning. I was grumpy to start with.
It is, unfortunately, or really should be, the first thing every American should read and hear about this morning.
Instead, for example the Today show is going to talk about the Clinton Library and the wingnuts who claim that they alter history or some such shit. I turned it off after the intor to the show.
My wife and I have sent this article, which we actually know about thanks to a troll from last night (thank you troll), to all the Bush voters we know (which is lots of them)around the country. Only a couple of them are part of the "owner/investor class." The large majority are part of the "working class."
Sort of a pleasant "fuck you very much" to each and every one of them.
I haven't spoken to (my Re-Puke sister) since long before the election...
Good for you. Fuck these morons. Fuck them. And that's exactly what they are. Morons. And that's exactly what they should be called, loudly and at every possible opportunity. Stupid fucking morons.
Fuck this "let's try and get along with the Nazis" bullshit. It's out and out warfare. Believe it. Act like it.
I haven't spoken to (my Re-Puke sister) since long before the election...
Good for you. Fuck these morons. Fuck them. And that's exactly what they are. Morons. And that's exactly what they should be called, loudly and at every possible opportunity. Stupid fucking morons.
Fuck this "let's try and get along with the Nazis" bullshit. It's out and out warfare. Believe it. Act like it.
What I want to know is, how do like your blue-eyed boy, Mr. Red State?
What I want to know is, how do like your blue-eyed boy, Mr. Red State?
What I want to know is, how do like your blue-eyed boy, Mr. Red State?
Why are you blaming Bush when it's obviously the trial lawyere who are at fault.
I guarantee you that will be her answer.
What I want to know is, how do like your blue-eyed boy, Mr. Red State?
Why are you blaming Bush when it's obviously the trial lawyere who are at fault.
I guarantee you that will be her answer.
It's the starting gun for the Great Race to the Bottom.
Last one to look like Alabama, or Argentina, or Elbonia, is a rotten egg!
It's the starting gun for the Great Race to the Bottom.
Last one to look like Alabama, or Argentina, or Elbonia, is a rotten egg!
hoosier sez:"...This is rope a dope."
Agreed.
Scare the hell out of the opposition and get them to capitulate to what you really want and let them "think" they protect a vital benefit.
Maybe the better position would be to disagree, put up a floor fight, but lose to the superior numbers in both House and Senate. It would be very hard to place blame on Democrats, 2 years from now, when the health of Americans is at par or lower than 3rd world countries.
By the way...anyone ever think that without health insurance there will be more people using their vacation time and sick leave for medical illnesses...that's a lotta people not working. And using vacation time for illnesses means few dollars spent on vacations...a whole lotta people will be vacationing at home. This hits them for a double-whammy...always short on people due to illness and few dollars to spend beyond basic necessities.
regards
.
hoosier sez:"...This is rope a dope."
Agreed.
Scare the hell out of the opposition and get them to capitulate to what you really want and let them "think" they protect a vital benefit.
Maybe the better position would be to disagree, put up a floor fight, but lose to the superior numbers in both House and Senate. It would be very hard to place blame on Democrats, 2 years from now, when the health of Americans is at par or lower than 3rd world countries.
By the way...anyone ever think that without health insurance there will be more people using their vacation time and sick leave for medical illnesses...that's a lotta people not working. And using vacation time for illnesses means few dollars spent on vacations...a whole lotta people will be vacationing at home. This hits them for a double-whammy...always short on people due to illness and few dollars to spend beyond basic necessities.
regards
.
If church going people will just starty holding Bush accountable for what he does, instead of defending him. They could see how he is destroying the country.
If church going people will just starty holding Bush accountable for what he does, instead of defending him. They could see how he is destroying the country.
So, if Kerry really plans to run again in 2008, shouldn't he start screaming about this, today?
Will any Dem start screaming?
Feingold? Anybody?
I doubt it.
So, if Kerry really plans to run again in 2008, shouldn't he start screaming about this, today?
Will any Dem start screaming?
Feingold? Anybody?
I doubt it.
oh well, "you got nuth'n, you got nuth'n to lose."
I haven't spoken to (my Re-Puke sister) since long before the election...
me neither, except in my case it's my fundie brother.
Fuck this "let's try and get along with the Nazis" bullshit. It's out and out warfare. Believe it. Act like it.
fuck'n A. and if i do perchance talk to or see a bush supporter, they hear how he is a war crimnal, and that by association so are they. either that, or willfully ignorant, you decide.
on a more positive note, someone remarked in here that no one will be bragging they voted for bush in four years. of course by then it may not matter.
oh well, "you got nuth'n, you got nuth'n to lose."
I haven't spoken to (my Re-Puke sister) since long before the election...
me neither, except in my case it's my fundie brother.
Fuck this "let's try and get along with the Nazis" bullshit. It's out and out warfare. Believe it. Act like it.
fuck'n A. and if i do perchance talk to or see a bush supporter, they hear how he is a war crimnal, and that by association so are they. either that, or willfully ignorant, you decide.
on a more positive note, someone remarked in here that no one will be bragging they voted for bush in four years. of course by then it may not matter.
This is NOT a rope-a-dope!
This is part of what they have been attempting to do for several years. Make no mistake about it - this is something that they really want to make happen.
Here's a further hint for all - there are some businesses that already do not want to pay for health care for their workers and it pisses them off that they have competitors that do provide health care. This is a sop to specific corporate donors that want to make it more costly for their competitors to continue offering health care benefits. This is a concerted effort to lower overall wages and benefits for workers, because, after all, they are just red ink on the balance sheet.
This is NOT a rope-a-dope!
This is part of what they have been attempting to do for several years. Make no mistake about it - this is something that they really want to make happen.
Here's a further hint for all - there are some businesses that already do not want to pay for health care for their workers and it pisses them off that they have competitors that do provide health care. This is a sop to specific corporate donors that want to make it more costly for their competitors to continue offering health care benefits. This is a concerted effort to lower overall wages and benefits for workers, because, after all, they are just red ink on the balance sheet.
maybe wellstone and carnahan were the last honest people in washington.
maybe wellstone and carnahan were the last honest people in washington.
Eliminating state income tax deductions? Scrapping business-tax deductions for health insurance? Are they mad? That's fucking with their REAL base.
Shielding interest, dividends, and cap gains from taxation... ah, wasn't someone asking yesterday what they planned to do about savings?
While the latter moves would spur investment and savings, and mitigate to a degree the effects inflation will have when they have to raise interest rates, the former moves are going to make small business owners nuts. And yes, you can say goodbye to health insurance from your employer. (I agree with you Atrios, it's a crappy system, but better than the nothing that seems about to replace it.)
Eliminating state income tax deductions? Scrapping business-tax deductions for health insurance? Are they mad? That's fucking with their REAL base.
Shielding interest, dividends, and cap gains from taxation... ah, wasn't someone asking yesterday what they planned to do about savings?
While the latter moves would spur investment and savings, and mitigate to a degree the effects inflation will have when they have to raise interest rates, the former moves are going to make small business owners nuts. And yes, you can say goodbye to health insurance from your employer. (I agree with you Atrios, it's a crappy system, but better than the nothing that seems about to replace it.)
Of course there is always a silver lining. Maybe when it's 120 million uninsured instead of a mere 44 million, people will pay attention.
maybe
Of course there is always a silver lining. Maybe when it's 120 million uninsured instead of a mere 44 million, people will pay attention.
maybe
Awful. Offal. Insurance is sucking more and more all the time as it is. It's only worth keeping for major problems in my case.
Awful. Offal. Insurance is sucking more and more all the time as it is. It's only worth keeping for major problems in my case.
SWR,
I fail to see WTF trial lawyers have to do with this. I agree that something needs to be done about TRUELY frivolous lawsuits, like putting stiff penalties on the filers. But the slam on trial lawyers Bu$hCo is putting forward is just another knife in the back for the *little people* who get maimed for life by bad medicine and Corporate polluters and saftey abusers.
SWR,
I fail to see WTF trial lawyers have to do with this. I agree that something needs to be done about TRUELY frivolous lawsuits, like putting stiff penalties on the filers. But the slam on trial lawyers Bu$hCo is putting forward is just another knife in the back for the *little people* who get maimed for life by bad medicine and Corporate polluters and saftey abusers.
This is just the beginning. They're really going to start ramping up pretty soon like never before with hate legislation for the fundamentalists. What did the Giggling Murderer say, "We've got to get all this through before two years or I'll be quacking like a duck. Quack, quack quack."?
This is just the beginning. They're really going to start ramping up pretty soon like never before with hate legislation for the fundamentalists. What did the Giggling Murderer say, "We've got to get all this through before two years or I'll be quacking like a duck. Quack, quack quack."?
SWR sez:"...Why are you blaming Bush when it's obviously the trial lawyere who are at fault."
Obviously you are ill-informed on the matter, mate. Check your facts!
Medical malpratice insurance did not go up because of lawsuits. They went up because the preimums that the malpratice insurance companys charge went up. And furthermore, the preimums went up because the stock markets; DOW dropped from over 13000 to below 6000...remember? And that's when the accusation started.
It should be obvious that the insurance copmanys are "heavily" invested to protect their clients in the event of a suit that goes against them. However, if the "bank", ie, the stockmarket bottom falls thru the floor, then preimums "have" to increase in order to maintain a healthy bankroll for future losses in the courts.
It has nothing to do with trial lawyers, outrageous lawsuit, and overvalued awards. It has everything to do with economic principles. If you rely completely on stock market investments and that vehicle fails, clients have to fork out more cash to shore up the difference.
regards
.
SWR sez:"...Why are you blaming Bush when it's obviously the trial lawyere who are at fault."
Obviously you are ill-informed on the matter, mate. Check your facts!
Medical malpratice insurance did not go up because of lawsuits. They went up because the preimums that the malpratice insurance companys charge went up. And furthermore, the preimums went up because the stock markets; DOW dropped from over 13000 to below 6000...remember? And that's when the accusation started.
It should be obvious that the insurance copmanys are "heavily" invested to protect their clients in the event of a suit that goes against them. However, if the "bank", ie, the stockmarket bottom falls thru the floor, then preimums "have" to increase in order to maintain a healthy bankroll for future losses in the courts.
It has nothing to do with trial lawyers, outrageous lawsuit, and overvalued awards. It has everything to do with economic principles. If you rely completely on stock market investments and that vehicle fails, clients have to fork out more cash to shore up the difference.
regards
.
1) It won't happen.
2) This would be very, very good for me, since all my income is from interest and dividends, except for a tiny portion. Since the state pays for all but a small amount of my health insurance, I'm golden, at least until the state raises my portion of the cost beyond what I can afford to pay.
3)This would be very bad for the country as a whole, by channeling even more money from the poor to the rich. Very very very very bad. What the fuck are these asswipes thinking??!!??!?!
1) It won't happen.
2) This would be very, very good for me, since all my income is from interest and dividends, except for a tiny portion. Since the state pays for all but a small amount of my health insurance, I'm golden, at least until the state raises my portion of the cost beyond what I can afford to pay.
3)This would be very bad for the country as a whole, by channeling even more money from the poor to the rich. Very very very very bad. What the fuck are these asswipes thinking??!!??!?!
I have to say, the health insurance element of this plan is just foolish.
Forget all the screaming about the poor, poor middle class and their health insurance. This aspect of the plan is plain old unfair to businesses!
Health insurance is a legitimate part of employee compensation. Saying you can't deduct for it is like saying that all the money you spend on commercial rents and salaries also can't be deducted. You could have situations where failed companies that went bankrupt would owe tax, because they would have illusionary profits based on a false P&L that didn't consider their employee health insurance costs.
We aren't talking about gaming the meals and entertainment P&L line item here. We're talking about compensation packages that in many instances are set by contract.
Thumbs down.
I have to say, the health insurance element of this plan is just foolish.
Forget all the screaming about the poor, poor middle class and their health insurance. This aspect of the plan is plain old unfair to businesses!
Health insurance is a legitimate part of employee compensation. Saying you can't deduct for it is like saying that all the money you spend on commercial rents and salaries also can't be deducted. You could have situations where failed companies that went bankrupt would owe tax, because they would have illusionary profits based on a false P&L that didn't consider their employee health insurance costs.
We aren't talking about gaming the meals and entertainment P&L line item here. We're talking about compensation packages that in many instances are set by contract.
Thumbs down.
So they get rid of all taxes on the passive income of the rich
Eliminating the long-term capital gains tax does not merely benefit accumulated wealth - it spurs entrepreneurial activity and market investment, which in turn expands employment. Clinton/Rubin were very smart in lowering this tax (which Reagan, tax hero to the wealth lardasses, raised significantly).
But eliminating it altogether so that you can also eliminate state and local taxes - and the health insurance deduction? Hoo boy.
However, reading this piece more carefully, it seems that a lot has been left nebulous and there are hints ("that would mean eliminating taxes on dividends and capital gains paid out of fully taxed corporate profits") that the capital gains tax would not necessarily be entirely eliminated.
So they get rid of all taxes on the passive income of the rich
Eliminating the long-term capital gains tax does not merely benefit accumulated wealth - it spurs entrepreneurial activity and market investment, which in turn expands employment. Clinton/Rubin were very smart in lowering this tax (which Reagan, tax hero to the wealth lardasses, raised significantly).
But eliminating it altogether so that you can also eliminate state and local taxes - and the health insurance deduction? Hoo boy.
However, reading this piece more carefully, it seems that a lot has been left nebulous and there are hints ("that would mean eliminating taxes on dividends and capital gains paid out of fully taxed corporate profits") that the capital gains tax would not necessarily be entirely eliminated.
Hoosier,
I'm not buying rope a dope here. Of course every change to the tax code is going to have to be watched. This health care thing, though, is in a league all its own.
Are you assuming it is a red herring because it is just too moronic, callous and outrageously dangerous to be true?
I'd advise extreme caution in that regard.
Normal limits on stupidity and callousness are no longer operational with these folks.
This "diversion" fits perfectly with the Bush campaign rhetoric about individual choices for health care. Go back an look and insert this gem into a couple of those speeches. It is the missing link.
I read it as a genuine proposal; I believe it will be nicely packaged, given a spiffy name and will at least reach a vote in Congress within a year.
Hoosier,
I'm not buying rope a dope here. Of course every change to the tax code is going to have to be watched. This health care thing, though, is in a league all its own.
Are you assuming it is a red herring because it is just too moronic, callous and outrageously dangerous to be true?
I'd advise extreme caution in that regard.
Normal limits on stupidity and callousness are no longer operational with these folks.
This "diversion" fits perfectly with the Bush campaign rhetoric about individual choices for health care. Go back an look and insert this gem into a couple of those speeches. It is the missing link.
I read it as a genuine proposal; I believe it will be nicely packaged, given a spiffy name and will at least reach a vote in Congress within a year.
Moad-Dib,
You are correct, sir. The insurance companies are the bad guys here, as well. I understand the anger folks feel when they get sued for no good reason other than opportunistic theft. But this is not what is happening here.
Moad-Dib,
You are correct, sir. The insurance companies are the bad guys here, as well. I understand the anger folks feel when they get sued for no good reason other than opportunistic theft. But this is not what is happening here.
It's ok. They have Jesus.
Who needs insurance if you have that!
It's ok. They have Jesus.
Who needs insurance if you have that!
No Insured Worker Left Behind
No Insured Worker Left Behind
It's ok. They have Jesus.
Who needs insurance if you have that!
Jack
And snakes, don't forget snakes to dance the hoe-down with.
It's ok. They have Jesus.
Who needs insurance if you have that!
Jack
And snakes, don't forget snakes to dance the hoe-down with.
This should be a loaded gun for the Democrats in Congress:
"They're planning on taking your health insurance away! Not you, poor person...not you, old person....YOU middle class American"
We need to spread some fear of our own. This should do the trick.
If they can't extract a pound of flesh with that then we really need to raze and start over.
This should be a loaded gun for the Democrats in Congress:
"They're planning on taking your health insurance away! Not you, poor person...not you, old person....YOU middle class American"
We need to spread some fear of our own. This should do the trick.
If they can't extract a pound of flesh with that then we really need to raze and start over.
This should be a loaded gun for the Democrats in Congress:
Yeah, right. When have the Democrats done a goddamn thing? They got theirs, fuck you little people. The media and democrats in Congress are our enemy now along with the repukes.
This should be a loaded gun for the Democrats in Congress:
Yeah, right. When have the Democrats done a goddamn thing? They got theirs, fuck you little people. The media and democrats in Congress are our enemy now along with the repukes.
Faith in god is an insurance policy. You will live forever in heaven. The rest of you will burn in hell.
Faith in god is an insurance policy. You will live forever in heaven. The rest of you will burn in hell.
bzzzzt sez:"...it pisses them off that they have competitors that do provide health care..."
Agreed.
In the last 5 years, emploers I have had go to extremes to provide the minimial amount of coverage as possible...sometimes requiring employees to pay the "full" not partial payment for the benefit if they want it...vision, drugs, dental.
regards
.
bzzzzt sez:"...it pisses them off that they have competitors that do provide health care..."
Agreed.
In the last 5 years, emploers I have had go to extremes to provide the minimial amount of coverage as possible...sometimes requiring employees to pay the "full" not partial payment for the benefit if they want it...vision, drugs, dental.
regards
.
I'm angrier about the elimination of a deduction for local and state taxes. We pay heavy taxes locally, and if we had to pay taxes on those amounts, we'd be in for another thousand or two in taxes.
That's an increase in my taxes. And hopefully a sound bite or two.
Unless the real plan is to propose elimination of the state tax deduction, take some flak, remove it to look like a compromise, and leave in the rest of the bad bill, including discouraging companies from offering health insurance......!!!!!
I'm angrier about the elimination of a deduction for local and state taxes. We pay heavy taxes locally, and if we had to pay taxes on those amounts, we'd be in for another thousand or two in taxes.
That's an increase in my taxes. And hopefully a sound bite or two.
Unless the real plan is to propose elimination of the state tax deduction, take some flak, remove it to look like a compromise, and leave in the rest of the bad bill, including discouraging companies from offering health insurance......!!!!!
I have to believe that if Congress passes new tax laws that eliminate the deduction for state and local income taxes, and the deduction for health care -- meaning that millions of middle-class Americans are paying more in taxes and more for health care -- that then, at last, even voters in the Red States will be smart enough to realize they're being screwed, and will toss their local GOP toady out on his or her ass.
I have to believe that. Because I have to believe that there's a limit to people's ignorance. Because if there's not, then there is no hope.
I have to believe that if Congress passes new tax laws that eliminate the deduction for state and local income taxes, and the deduction for health care -- meaning that millions of middle-class Americans are paying more in taxes and more for health care -- that then, at last, even voters in the Red States will be smart enough to realize they're being screwed, and will toss their local GOP toady out on his or her ass.
I have to believe that. Because I have to believe that there's a limit to people's ignorance. Because if there's not, then there is no hope.
"They're planning on taking your health insurance away! Not you, poor person...not you, old person....YOU middle class American"
Bingo.
On a side note, I wonder how many doctors will be driven out of business under this plan?
"They're planning on taking your health insurance away! Not you, poor person...not you, old person....YOU middle class American"
Bingo.
On a side note, I wonder how many doctors will be driven out of business under this plan?
Can someone give a quick primer on why dividends are not double taxation on corporate profits? Thanks.
Can someone give a quick primer on why dividends are not double taxation on corporate profits? Thanks.
Are you assuming it is a red herring because it is just too moronic, callous and outrageously dangerous to be true?
I'd advise extreme caution in that regard.
i second that, and remember they are just getting started. "shrink it down and drown it in the bathtub." in the future your tax dollar will pay for defense and police. that's it.
of course i don't really know what i am talking about, but that's what i've been hearing.
Are you assuming it is a red herring because it is just too moronic, callous and outrageously dangerous to be true?
I'd advise extreme caution in that regard.
i second that, and remember they are just getting started. "shrink it down and drown it in the bathtub." in the future your tax dollar will pay for defense and police. that's it.
of course i don't really know what i am talking about, but that's what i've been hearing.
I recall telling friends during W's first presidential campaign, when he bragged about his great knowledge of Latin America, that his economic policies were meant to create the kind of third-world economy he seemed to like there. A small extremely wealthy, powerful upper class, supported by a small, insecure professional/middle class, with a huge pool of cheap labor called the working class.
Home ownership would be limited to the wealthy class, with some in the professional group hanging on by their fingernails--and the favors of the wealthy overclass.
A commenter above mentioned the 13th Century-yup. Recall that Scalia is not so sure the Magna Carta is a good thing, as it interposes man's judgment into the Divine Right of Kings' approach.
With this type of tax overhaul, pretty soon the inherited wealth class can begin to regain its rightful role as landowner of huge holdings. The peons and vassals will live and serve at the sufferance of the powerful landed gentry.
Surely, it would then be seen as merely fitting that only property owners have the standing to vote....
Bizarro World is coming to a country where you live soon.
I recall telling friends during W's first presidential campaign, when he bragged about his great knowledge of Latin America, that his economic policies were meant to create the kind of third-world economy he seemed to like there. A small extremely wealthy, powerful upper class, supported by a small, insecure professional/middle class, with a huge pool of cheap labor called the working class.
Home ownership would be limited to the wealthy class, with some in the professional group hanging on by their fingernails--and the favors of the wealthy overclass.
A commenter above mentioned the 13th Century-yup. Recall that Scalia is not so sure the Magna Carta is a good thing, as it interposes man's judgment into the Divine Right of Kings' approach.
With this type of tax overhaul, pretty soon the inherited wealth class can begin to regain its rightful role as landowner of huge holdings. The peons and vassals will live and serve at the sufferance of the powerful landed gentry.
Surely, it would then be seen as merely fitting that only property owners have the standing to vote....
Bizarro World is coming to a country where you live soon.
but we got Jesus!
but we got Jesus!
Corporations paid dividends, from their after-tax profits.
When you receive that dividend, the government then taxes that as income as well.
Corporations paid dividends, from their after-tax profits.
When you receive that dividend, the government then taxes that as income as well.
When have the Democrats done a goddamn thing? They got theirs, fuck you little people. The media and democrats in Congress are our enemy now along with the repukes.
Somebody should come up with a party that stands for the little guy. If there was a party like that, I'd switch my registration in a heartbeat.
I'm serious.
When have the Democrats done a goddamn thing? They got theirs, fuck you little people. The media and democrats in Congress are our enemy now along with the repukes.
Somebody should come up with a party that stands for the little guy. If there was a party like that, I'd switch my registration in a heartbeat.
I'm serious.
Can someone give a quick primer on why dividends are not double taxation on corporate profits? Thanks.
Can someone give a quick primer on why dividends are not double taxation on corporate profits? Thanks.
President Bush's top economist, N. Gregory Mankiw, will likely be leaving early next year,
Yet another formerly respected man ruined by his decision to associate with GWB. God, will they never learn?
President Bush's top economist, N. Gregory Mankiw, will likely be leaving early next year,
Yet another formerly respected man ruined by his decision to associate with GWB. God, will they never learn?
We all know the health care system in this country is a joke anyway. The only thing holding it together for over half of America is the tax break greed of most employers.
Tax break greed? You are seriously misinformed. If given a choice most - no, make that ALL - employers would GLADLY hand over the problem of providing health insurance coverage for their employees to someone, anyone, else. It's a pain in the ass and, for small biz owners especially, a "fixed cost" that continually increases dramatically, so that the employee that you thought would have x effect on your burn rate now has x.25, or x.35, effect on it. Which can make the difference in whether or not someone gets to keep his/her job.
It's not a "tax break" - most of the things that people thought of as cushy tax breaks were eliminated in 1986 (and before). It's a deductible expense - as are office supplies. Providing health insurance is a competitive perk that has turned into a necessity for employees. Any employer with a heart (and contrary to the "The Man's Out to Get Me" school of thought, they are legion) strives to offer his/her employees with the best health care the company can afford without going out of business.
Tax break. Jesus.
We all know the health care system in this country is a joke anyway. The only thing holding it together for over half of America is the tax break greed of most employers.
Tax break greed? You are seriously misinformed. If given a choice most - no, make that ALL - employers would GLADLY hand over the problem of providing health insurance coverage for their employees to someone, anyone, else. It's a pain in the ass and, for small biz owners especially, a "fixed cost" that continually increases dramatically, so that the employee that you thought would have x effect on your burn rate now has x.25, or x.35, effect on it. Which can make the difference in whether or not someone gets to keep his/her job.
It's not a "tax break" - most of the things that people thought of as cushy tax breaks were eliminated in 1986 (and before). It's a deductible expense - as are office supplies. Providing health insurance is a competitive perk that has turned into a necessity for employees. Any employer with a heart (and contrary to the "The Man's Out to Get Me" school of thought, they are legion) strives to offer his/her employees with the best health care the company can afford without going out of business.
Tax break. Jesus.
nashvegasdawg, close your haloscan comment window then reopen again. Do not hit F5.
nashvegasdawg, close your haloscan comment window then reopen again. Do not hit F5.
I have to believe that. Because I have to believe that there's a limit to people's ignorance. Because if there's not, then there is no hope.
Fred App
Abandon all hope my friend. A Bush supporter could be walking around with an knife sticking out of his eye-socket put there by Bush himself and he would still vote for him.
I have to believe that. Because I have to believe that there's a limit to people's ignorance. Because if there's not, then there is no hope.
Fred App
Abandon all hope my friend. A Bush supporter could be walking around with an knife sticking out of his eye-socket put there by Bush himself and he would still vote for him.
The LePetomaine presidency is failing to amuse me. Maybe we should send him a jacket with PREZNIT in bold white letters on the back.
Anyone wonder why he only ran companies into the ground as a businessman? Revenue neutral right...
Oh.
The LePetomaine presidency is failing to amuse me. Maybe we should send him a jacket with PREZNIT in bold white letters on the back.
Anyone wonder why he only ran companies into the ground as a businessman? Revenue neutral right...
Oh.
This should be a loaded gun for the Democrats in Congress:
"They're planning on taking your health insurance away! Not you, poor person...not you, old person....YOU middle class American"
I suggest we all contact the DNC and let the leadership know on no uncertain terms that we expect a forceful, vocal, public response to this measure.
We should also contact Nader, the Libertarian Party, and the Green Party co-chairs.
It would be good to construct a situation in which the DNC is competing to have the loudest voice of outrage over the various Bushist fiascos.
This should be a loaded gun for the Democrats in Congress:
"They're planning on taking your health insurance away! Not you, poor person...not you, old person....YOU middle class American"
I suggest we all contact the DNC and let the leadership know on no uncertain terms that we expect a forceful, vocal, public response to this measure.
We should also contact Nader, the Libertarian Party, and the Green Party co-chairs.
It would be good to construct a situation in which the DNC is competing to have the loudest voice of outrage over the various Bushist fiascos.
Thanks for explaining this to the class idiot. I think I get it now.
How many of us have worked truly shitty jobs for the benefits? What happens when the benefits disappear? Tis seems like a disincentive to both small business and the working class. Or am I wrong about this?
On the state & local taxes: are we sure this isn't just a slapdown to the blue states? I'll bet we have higher rates of state & local taxes in general, so this hurts me more than, say, a Mississippian.
Thanks for explaining this to the class idiot. I think I get it now.
How many of us have worked truly shitty jobs for the benefits? What happens when the benefits disappear? Tis seems like a disincentive to both small business and the working class. Or am I wrong about this?
On the state & local taxes: are we sure this isn't just a slapdown to the blue states? I'll bet we have higher rates of state & local taxes in general, so this hurts me more than, say, a Mississippian.
I don't understand what this change could mean.
As someone pointed out upthread, paying for an employee's health insurance is normally considered just another business expense, like the employee's salary itself. A business can't be taxed on that money because it's just part of the cost of doing business, and so not part of any profit, which can of course be taxed.
Could it possibly be that this move would be to declare that health insurance for employees is NOT a business expense? THAT would ruin businesses across the entire economic landscape, since so much of most business's expenses are tied up with employee compensation, and health care is a prominent portion of that compensation.
I'm guessing that its meaning must be something more restricted.
I don't understand what this change could mean.
As someone pointed out upthread, paying for an employee's health insurance is normally considered just another business expense, like the employee's salary itself. A business can't be taxed on that money because it's just part of the cost of doing business, and so not part of any profit, which can of course be taxed.
Could it possibly be that this move would be to declare that health insurance for employees is NOT a business expense? THAT would ruin businesses across the entire economic landscape, since so much of most business's expenses are tied up with employee compensation, and health care is a prominent portion of that compensation.
I'm guessing that its meaning must be something more restricted.
Are these the no tax on a tax people? If you cannot deduct the taxes you paid elsewhere from your income you must pay a tax on a tax.
Are these the no tax on a tax people? If you cannot deduct the taxes you paid elsewhere from your income you must pay a tax on a tax.
I have to agree with the earlier post about the 13th century model of society that is about to be unleashed in the near-term future (20-50 years)
We have a highly controlled upper-upper class, supported by the next-lower upper class which legislates and governs the shrinking group of the middle-class that is under the daily, ever-threatening prospect of toppling into the lower class. race, gender and nationality are not involved at all. Religion, however WILL play a large part in the whole dynamic, just like during the middle ages.
You will be so concerned of your precarious social standing that your very life will be jeopardized if you attempt to make too much of it. Your entire life structure is at the whim and will of those at the upper classes whose being is made possible by those beneath them. All under the guise of "god's will"
Enjoy serfdom.
I have to agree with the earlier post about the 13th century model of society that is about to be unleashed in the near-term future (20-50 years)
We have a highly controlled upper-upper class, supported by the next-lower upper class which legislates and governs the shrinking group of the middle-class that is under the daily, ever-threatening prospect of toppling into the lower class. race, gender and nationality are not involved at all. Religion, however WILL play a large part in the whole dynamic, just like during the middle ages.
You will be so concerned of your precarious social standing that your very life will be jeopardized if you attempt to make too much of it. Your entire life structure is at the whim and will of those at the upper classes whose being is made possible by those beneath them. All under the guise of "god's will"
Enjoy serfdom.
Aside fromt he Health care element of this, doesn't the elimination of deduction for state & local taxes amount to a TAX INCREASE? The way I see it, if I cannot deduct my state & local taxes, then my Fed. tax bill will be going up up up. This would be one of those 350 tax increases Bush accused Kerry of supporting.
This plan is a windfall if you live off a trust fund.
Aside fromt he Health care element of this, doesn't the elimination of deduction for state & local taxes amount to a TAX INCREASE? The way I see it, if I cannot deduct my state & local taxes, then my Fed. tax bill will be going up up up. This would be one of those 350 tax increases Bush accused Kerry of supporting.
This plan is a windfall if you live off a trust fund.
OK, Barndog. Blazing Saddles was on AMC last night, didja see? Cut up, though. Thers wants to get it on DVD.
The LePetomaine presidency indeed. Right up there with Toady Hall.
OK, Barndog. Blazing Saddles was on AMC last night, didja see? Cut up, though. Thers wants to get it on DVD.
The LePetomaine presidency indeed. Right up there with Toady Hall.
Not allowing state and local tax deductions is functionally a tax increase. In addition, we are now to pay taxes on our taxes. Consider as well, the reduction of Federal taxes (and programs) will necessitate a rise in state and local taxes. The tax bill increases and the ability to offset it is eliminated. You do the demographics.
Not allowing state and local tax deductions is functionally a tax increase. In addition, we are now to pay taxes on our taxes. Consider as well, the reduction of Federal taxes (and programs) will necessitate a rise in state and local taxes. The tax bill increases and the ability to offset it is eliminated. You do the demographics.
You will live forever in heaven. Anonymous
you sure about that? just as sure as those terrorists were they would get 77 virgins? no, i didn't think so.
one thing is for sure, you're gonna get sick and die. this is an immutable law of the universe. well, i guess you could get killed and skip the sick part. that would sort of be like cheating god. hmmm...
You will live forever in heaven. Anonymous
you sure about that? just as sure as those terrorists were they would get 77 virgins? no, i didn't think so.
one thing is for sure, you're gonna get sick and die. this is an immutable law of the universe. well, i guess you could get killed and skip the sick part. that would sort of be like cheating god. hmmm...
Of course people will brag they voted for Bush. In fact, like the Iraq war, only people who voted for Bush will be "allowed" to credibly criticize him. That's how things work in this country, bass ackwards.
Liberals will be perceived to be motivated by hate, instead of the truth that we observed his behaviors for 4 years, and decided that we did not want more of the same. The Re-pukes are still sitting around trying to
say that he will be moderate and change. He won't! It's on to Iran...
Of course people will brag they voted for Bush. In fact, like the Iraq war, only people who voted for Bush will be "allowed" to credibly criticize him. That's how things work in this country, bass ackwards.
Liberals will be perceived to be motivated by hate, instead of the truth that we observed his behaviors for 4 years, and decided that we did not want more of the same. The Re-pukes are still sitting around trying to
say that he will be moderate and change. He won't! It's on to Iran...
I see no one has mentioned the key point: Canadian immigration applications just went up MASSIVELY.
And U.S. businesses will become LESS competitive as the most skilled workers LEAVE THE COUNTRY.
Even if we were ignoring the fundamental law of monetary policy--increasing the velocity of taxable spending allows you to keep the tax rate low--it's anticompetitive to make a business either (1) effectively pay more for the same workers or (2) lessen its attractiveness.
Auto workers in Detroit, MI, or South Bend, IN, can move to Toronto without facing an extreme fiscal cost. Nake it that much more valuable for them to do so, and they will.
Why does the administration hate American business and American workers? Is it because no one at the top has ever run one successfully?
I see no one has mentioned the key point: Canadian immigration applications just went up MASSIVELY.
And U.S. businesses will become LESS competitive as the most skilled workers LEAVE THE COUNTRY.
Even if we were ignoring the fundamental law of monetary policy--increasing the velocity of taxable spending allows you to keep the tax rate low--it's anticompetitive to make a business either (1) effectively pay more for the same workers or (2) lessen its attractiveness.
Auto workers in Detroit, MI, or South Bend, IN, can move to Toronto without facing an extreme fiscal cost. Nake it that much more valuable for them to do so, and they will.
Why does the administration hate American business and American workers? Is it because no one at the top has ever run one successfully?
Ha ha ha, American suckers.
You talk so biiiig about your freedoms and rights, yet we here in Europe see freedom from worry about health expenses and decent hospital care as a right. What a pity, for YOU, that you, who talk so big about your rights and liberties, dont.
Suckers!!!!!
Ha ha ha, American suckers.
You talk so biiiig about your freedoms and rights, yet we here in Europe see freedom from worry about health expenses and decent hospital care as a right. What a pity, for YOU, that you, who talk so big about your rights and liberties, dont.
Suckers!!!!!
Just to follow up on my post, it's not clear what the proposal could mean, because if it meant that employers couldn't deduct employee's health costs, then many companies that are just at the margins of viability, perhaps making little or no profit, or actually losing money, may well have to start paying large taxes on the money they spend on employees' health care.
I'm guessing that the real change they are suggesting might be to eliminate some special incentive or credit to encourage employers to put in place employee health plans.
Just to follow up on my post, it's not clear what the proposal could mean, because if it meant that employers couldn't deduct employee's health costs, then many companies that are just at the margins of viability, perhaps making little or no profit, or actually losing money, may well have to start paying large taxes on the money they spend on employees' health care.
I'm guessing that the real change they are suggesting might be to eliminate some special incentive or credit to encourage employers to put in place employee health plans.
bigvic
I was a victim of a hit-and-run by a millionaire... he hit me, left the scene, but came back before the police got there. Hit and run was thrown out because he returned before the police arrived on scene( over 7 witnesses were willing to testify)...he was charged with a "failure to yield right of way...$90 fine at the time.
I received payment for my medical bills and an annuity (not cash payment) that will not pay out more that $2000 a month when I reach 65. I didn't receive anything for pain, suffering, loss of work (one year), or loss of personal functions.
My injuries were in the multi-millions catagory, however, this guy had everything going into a financial trust. Legally, you can't sue a person who has "no income". I had legitimate injuries and a valid claim, but was denied my day in court due to legal prose. In short, I could only take his car insurance company to task for his neglience. Thus the low amount.
In short, there are enough "protections" out there for millionaires, lawyers, and doctors. The rest of us do require protection from their neglience.
regards
.
bigvic
I was a victim of a hit-and-run by a millionaire... he hit me, left the scene, but came back before the police got there. Hit and run was thrown out because he returned before the police arrived on scene( over 7 witnesses were willing to testify)...he was charged with a "failure to yield right of way...$90 fine at the time.
I received payment for my medical bills and an annuity (not cash payment) that will not pay out more that $2000 a month when I reach 65. I didn't receive anything for pain, suffering, loss of work (one year), or loss of personal functions.
My injuries were in the multi-millions catagory, however, this guy had everything going into a financial trust. Legally, you can't sue a person who has "no income". I had legitimate injuries and a valid claim, but was denied my day in court due to legal prose. In short, I could only take his car insurance company to task for his neglience. Thus the low amount.
In short, there are enough "protections" out there for millionaires, lawyers, and doctors. The rest of us do require protection from their neglience.
regards
.
It would be good to construct a situation in which the DNC is competing to have the loudest voice of outrage over the various Bushist fiascos.
GN @ 8:45 am
This idea I like. Sinclair the DNC. It won't change until we attempt to force it to change -- and even then who knows.
Good for the grassroots to get active -- we need a unifying project to build the muscle from the Sinclair boycott, else we'll atrophy like the DNC and Dem leadership appear to be doing.
No NYMary - I didn't watch it. I have the original uncut one on tape.
I'm beyond stunned with this crap. Beyond stunned.
I don't know if theres a word for it.
All I'm praying for, is that the implosion within the republican party comes sooner rather than later. I see signs of it already, and then shit like this comes out - and I have to wonder.
Simply. Fucking. Amazing.
It would be good to construct a situation in which the DNC is competing to have the loudest voice of outrage over the various Bushist fiascos.
GN @ 8:45 am
This idea I like. Sinclair the DNC. It won't change until we attempt to force it to change -- and even then who knows.
Good for the grassroots to get active -- we need a unifying project to build the muscle from the Sinclair boycott, else we'll atrophy like the DNC and Dem leadership appear to be doing.
No NYMary - I didn't watch it. I have the original uncut one on tape.
I'm beyond stunned with this crap. Beyond stunned.
I don't know if theres a word for it.
All I'm praying for, is that the implosion within the republican party comes sooner rather than later. I see signs of it already, and then shit like this comes out - and I have to wonder.
Simply. Fucking. Amazing.
The Bushites may have intended the insurance thing to be rope-a-dope, but I'm not sure it'll turn out that way, especially with the Dems' new thank-you-sir-may-I-have-another leadership. If the Dems in Congress roll over without protest, the GOP may end up stuck with the credit for this, whether they intended it or not.
The Bushites may have intended the insurance thing to be rope-a-dope, but I'm not sure it'll turn out that way, especially with the Dems' new thank-you-sir-may-I-have-another leadership. If the Dems in Congress roll over without protest, the GOP may end up stuck with the credit for this, whether they intended it or not.
The insurance companies are the bad guys here, as well. I understand the anger folks feel when they get sued for no good reason other than opportunistic theft. But this is not what is happening here.
bigvic | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 8:29 am
The insurance companies are, frankly, always the bad guys. I can think of no way in which they help anyone except their stockholders. The biggest reason I want nationalized health care is it will get these greedy, sponging fucks out of the picture.
The insurance companies are the bad guys here, as well. I understand the anger folks feel when they get sued for no good reason other than opportunistic theft. But this is not what is happening here.
bigvic | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 8:29 am
The insurance companies are, frankly, always the bad guys. I can think of no way in which they help anyone except their stockholders. The biggest reason I want nationalized health care is it will get these greedy, sponging fucks out of the picture.
Aside fromt he Health care element of this, doesn't the elimination of deduction for state & local taxes amount to a TAX INCREASE?
Yes. This is about increasingly shifting the tax burden onto the middle class. Because someone has to pay for empire, being as empire is no longer a profitable enterprise. But this group are still in the dotcom boom phase of their business education - the part where you party while spending wealth accumulated by others. Now it's late 2000 for them and all those boo.coms are looking pretty creaky.
The Grover Norquists and the Paul Wolfowitzes still haven't realized the degree to which they are far more inimical to one another than liberals are to either. Throw in the newly ascendant dominionists and you have a really stinky haggis of a coalition government.
Aside fromt he Health care element of this, doesn't the elimination of deduction for state & local taxes amount to a TAX INCREASE?
Yes. This is about increasingly shifting the tax burden onto the middle class. Because someone has to pay for empire, being as empire is no longer a profitable enterprise. But this group are still in the dotcom boom phase of their business education - the part where you party while spending wealth accumulated by others. Now it's late 2000 for them and all those boo.coms are looking pretty creaky.
The Grover Norquists and the Paul Wolfowitzes still haven't realized the degree to which they are far more inimical to one another than liberals are to either. Throw in the newly ascendant dominionists and you have a really stinky haggis of a coalition government.
OT:
Hungarian goulash = freedom goulash
Hungary Tries to Speed Iraq Withdrawal
The extension would have kept the Hungarians in Iraq until March 31, 2005, but Gyurcsany said Thursday he had instructed Defense Minister Ferenc Juhasz to begin talks about bringing home as many soldiers as possible before the end of the year.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news...pl=story&u=/ap/
20041118/ap_on_re_eu/hungary_iraq&cid=518&
ncid=1480
OT:
Hungarian goulash = freedom goulash
Hungary Tries to Speed Iraq Withdrawal
The extension would have kept the Hungarians in Iraq until March 31, 2005, but Gyurcsany said Thursday he had instructed Defense Minister Ferenc Juhasz to begin talks about bringing home as many soldiers as possible before the end of the year.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news...pl=story&u=/ap/
20041118/ap_on_re_eu/hungary_iraq&cid=518&
ncid=1480
You know what happened? Bush's big business leader pals called him up and said that they need some more money so they can get that yacht that that they've had their eye on.
Then they can tell their workers who rely on those benefits to use the money they save from not having to pay for health insurance to start up a "health care savings account" on top of the savings account that they keep having to dip into to pay for home heating, higher food prices, higher gas prices, Johnny's tuition, etc..
All the while saying that taking away your health insurance is a good thing for you.
You know what happened? Bush's big business leader pals called him up and said that they need some more money so they can get that yacht that that they've had their eye on.
Then they can tell their workers who rely on those benefits to use the money they save from not having to pay for health insurance to start up a "health care savings account" on top of the savings account that they keep having to dip into to pay for home heating, higher food prices, higher gas prices, Johnny's tuition, etc..
All the while saying that taking away your health insurance is a good thing for you.
These proposals are very definitely highly regressive. They want to pay for shielding investment income from taxation by eliminating a tax deduction that almost all middle class people take. Anyone with a mortgage itemizes deductions and takes the deduction for state and local taxes. Most of the income offset by those deductions is earned income. So we'll all pay more taxes on our wages, and the riches will pay not taxes on the profits they make from our labor. That's what this means.
Oh yeah -- all those poor bastards who voted for Bush are getting screwed, of course.
These proposals are very definitely highly regressive. They want to pay for shielding investment income from taxation by eliminating a tax deduction that almost all middle class people take. Anyone with a mortgage itemizes deductions and takes the deduction for state and local taxes. Most of the income offset by those deductions is earned income. So we'll all pay more taxes on our wages, and the riches will pay not taxes on the profits they make from our labor. That's what this means.
Oh yeah -- all those poor bastards who voted for Bush are getting screwed, of course.
These people are out to destroy us and until everyone wakes up and realizes this isn't just politics anymore....they will prevail
These people are out to destroy us and until everyone wakes up and realizes this isn't just politics anymore....they will prevail
Let's see what we can or cannot do to get some real traction on this story:
contact the DNC
contact Nader
contact the Libertarian Party
contact the Green Party
From the DNC which has $45M, we need to see full page ads, not in the NYT for God's sake, but in the New York Post, and small town newspapers.
From the others, we should ask that whatever media access they make have with their existing network (esp. the Libertarians, who have more access to rural areas), to begin to vocally criticize the slaughter of the middle class. Perhaps this will work; perhaps not, but we need to personally involve ourselves in at least attempting to generate solutions for the various Bush fiascos.
Let's see what we can or cannot do to get some real traction on this story:
contact the DNC
contact Nader
contact the Libertarian Party
contact the Green Party
From the DNC which has $45M, we need to see full page ads, not in the NYT for God's sake, but in the New York Post, and small town newspapers.
From the others, we should ask that whatever media access they make have with their existing network (esp. the Libertarians, who have more access to rural areas), to begin to vocally criticize the slaughter of the middle class. Perhaps this will work; perhaps not, but we need to personally involve ourselves in at least attempting to generate solutions for the various Bush fiascos.
so THIS is what the mandate was for!!
so THIS is what the mandate was for!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
"F" Joe Sixpack valueless Americans for voting for Bush. They've been chugging the repukelican kool-aid program of corporate elitist welfare, against their own interests, for 30 years - let the public be damned!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
"F" Joe Sixpack valueless Americans for voting for Bush. They've been chugging the repukelican kool-aid program of corporate elitist welfare, against their own interests, for 30 years - let the public be damned!!!
Hahaha; Sorry I'm still laughing about that "blood libel" piece below.
Hmmmm. Revenue neutral tax changes. Means someone pays less and someone pays more, right? Tax cuts for those with substantial investment income. Tax increases for everyone who itemizes deductions. Net -- at what income level (on average) does investment income = state tax paid? As NYMary pointed out, this will vary by state. But it looks like a sweet deal for anyone with lots of investment income -- W's base that is. And, of course, no health insurance for the working poor.
Hahaha; Sorry I'm still laughing about that "blood libel" piece below.
Hmmmm. Revenue neutral tax changes. Means someone pays less and someone pays more, right? Tax cuts for those with substantial investment income. Tax increases for everyone who itemizes deductions. Net -- at what income level (on average) does investment income = state tax paid? As NYMary pointed out, this will vary by state. But it looks like a sweet deal for anyone with lots of investment income -- W's base that is. And, of course, no health insurance for the working poor.
Re: work and health benefits. Yes, many do stay at undesirable jobs to keep their benefits, esp'ly health care.
But, people also work to live--you know, pay for food, shelter, clothing.
The objective is to get people to work for less and less. Ask former workers of the meatpacking plants in Jefferson, WI--taken over by, IIRC, Tyson, wages cut, strike unsuccessful. Now, Walmart wants to come in, kill the remaining small businesses, and pay shit to the many alreay unemployed.
Moyers has covered this over time. Sad story of middle American downward spiral.
Race to the bottom does not help build a middle class.
Re: work and health benefits. Yes, many do stay at undesirable jobs to keep their benefits, esp'ly health care.
But, people also work to live--you know, pay for food, shelter, clothing.
The objective is to get people to work for less and less. Ask former workers of the meatpacking plants in Jefferson, WI--taken over by, IIRC, Tyson, wages cut, strike unsuccessful. Now, Walmart wants to come in, kill the remaining small businesses, and pay shit to the many alreay unemployed.
Moyers has covered this over time. Sad story of middle American downward spiral.
Race to the bottom does not help build a middle class.
On a side note, I wonder how many doctors will be driven out of business under this plan?
Hmmm....I need to think about this, but it just depends on whether the health care that is forgone by those who now have to pay out of pocket for their care is or is not balanced by the increased payment by those w/o conventional insurance that now need to pay for their care. You'd also see a likely increase in the Medicaid population (from conventional insurance), which would not be well received by most doctors.
Okay, so back to the doctor question. I don't know what it would do in the long term, but if doctors are risk adverse then they won't really want to find out and wouldn't support this.
I'm assuming that part of the purpose of this is to push people into HSA. Businesses could offer HSA to employees as a benefit....say, agree to put in X amount a year....which, even if that amount is the same as they are paying right now for the premium of that individual or the average individual in the firm, the burden of increasing health insurance cost would mostly be absorbed by the employee in the coming years since most firms pay a percentage of the premium (80% is the norm I believe) So the firm would be protected from that, and still offer some sort of 'benefit'.
On a side note, I wonder how many doctors will be driven out of business under this plan?
Hmmm....I need to think about this, but it just depends on whether the health care that is forgone by those who now have to pay out of pocket for their care is or is not balanced by the increased payment by those w/o conventional insurance that now need to pay for their care. You'd also see a likely increase in the Medicaid population (from conventional insurance), which would not be well received by most doctors.
Okay, so back to the doctor question. I don't know what it would do in the long term, but if doctors are risk adverse then they won't really want to find out and wouldn't support this.
I'm assuming that part of the purpose of this is to push people into HSA. Businesses could offer HSA to employees as a benefit....say, agree to put in X amount a year....which, even if that amount is the same as they are paying right now for the premium of that individual or the average individual in the firm, the burden of increasing health insurance cost would mostly be absorbed by the employee in the coming years since most firms pay a percentage of the premium (80% is the norm I believe) So the firm would be protected from that, and still offer some sort of 'benefit'.
How can they eliminate credits/deductions for state income taxes? How is that not double taxation? I thought there were laws against that.
This is unreal. They are just eviscerating everything that has grown our middle class to be the wonder of the world and something other countries have strived to achieve after our model.
Aw shit.
How can they eliminate credits/deductions for state income taxes? How is that not double taxation? I thought there were laws against that.
This is unreal. They are just eviscerating everything that has grown our middle class to be the wonder of the world and something other countries have strived to achieve after our model.
Aw shit.
I don't see how this can please the Norquists of the world, since the net effect is not to lower taxes but to shift the tax burden. It definitely will piss off Kevin Phillips conservatives (that is, old school Goldwater conservatives) because of the state tax deduction elimination. Talk about yer double taxation.
Then again, I never did get what Grover and pals saw in this administration. Reagan lowered income tax rates in a huge way, so I can see why they stuck by him even as he dramatically grew government spending. But these guys started out the gate bloating the government, and more bureaucracy is their solution to everything. (CIA, FBI not doing their jobs? Let's create a bigger bureaucracy!)
I guess Grover et al are conflicted and that the medieval social policies and sniping at the Bill of Rights are a fair tradeoff for the most stupidly steered ship of state since the days of inbred European monarchs.
I don't see how this can please the Norquists of the world, since the net effect is not to lower taxes but to shift the tax burden. It definitely will piss off Kevin Phillips conservatives (that is, old school Goldwater conservatives) because of the state tax deduction elimination. Talk about yer double taxation.
Then again, I never did get what Grover and pals saw in this administration. Reagan lowered income tax rates in a huge way, so I can see why they stuck by him even as he dramatically grew government spending. But these guys started out the gate bloating the government, and more bureaucracy is their solution to everything. (CIA, FBI not doing their jobs? Let's create a bigger bureaucracy!)
I guess Grover et al are conflicted and that the medieval social policies and sniping at the Bill of Rights are a fair tradeoff for the most stupidly steered ship of state since the days of inbred European monarchs.
FUNNY: the new program will be called the Life Simplification Act,making life simpler by allowing it to expire prematurely.
Lennon Report
FUNNY: the new program will be called the Life Simplification Act,making life simpler by allowing it to expire prematurely.
Lennon Report
This outta put a 'Monster' dent in Hardee's 'Big Monster Burger' sales right off the bat.
A trip to the cardiologist in every burger. (1400 calories, 107 grams of fat)
Not for the romaine lettuce and raspberry vinagrette crowd indeed, ya stupid greedy dumb fuckers.
This outta put a 'Monster' dent in Hardee's 'Big Monster Burger' sales right off the bat.
A trip to the cardiologist in every burger. (1400 calories, 107 grams of fat)
Not for the romaine lettuce and raspberry vinagrette crowd indeed, ya stupid greedy dumb fuckers.
Bush is the anti-FDR. The New Deal is being rolled back. I know its stating the obvious at this point, but you have to wonder, the poorest states get hit the hardest. The poorest states voted for these policies. Why can't we get our message out?
Isn't there a Karl Rove or a Lee Atwater out there somewhere that is a registered Democrat? We need you.
Bush is the anti-FDR. The New Deal is being rolled back. I know its stating the obvious at this point, but you have to wonder, the poorest states get hit the hardest. The poorest states voted for these policies. Why can't we get our message out?
Isn't there a Karl Rove or a Lee Atwater out there somewhere that is a registered Democrat? We need you.
I'm fixated by the health insurance portion of this due to the fact that I'm a health policy analyst, but wow....now that you guys got me away from that onto the state/local tax issue....isn't that a big fuck you to residents of the east coast?
I'm fixated by the health insurance portion of this due to the fact that I'm a health policy analyst, but wow....now that you guys got me away from that onto the state/local tax issue....isn't that a big fuck you to residents of the east coast?
I once knew a person who had a devastating effect on the company I work for.
His favorite line was "Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make a cake". Problem is he never got around to making the cake.
That is what this administration is beginning to look like. These taz changes are going to be a complete rout with no solution.
I once knew a person who had a devastating effect on the company I work for.
His favorite line was "Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make a cake". Problem is he never got around to making the cake.
That is what this administration is beginning to look like. These taz changes are going to be a complete rout with no solution.
taz = tax
taz = tax
Don't blame me - blame Moron America!
Don't blame me - blame Moron America!
Atrios, do you think that the "plan" has a snowball's chance of pass with that proviso included? Even GOP a$$wipes have to go home and answer to their Red "constitueny". And employer-paid health insurance covers Blue and Red alike.
Could this be a ploy to exchange this line item for another?
Atrios, do you think that the "plan" has a snowball's chance of pass with that proviso included? Even GOP a$$wipes have to go home and answer to their Red "constitueny". And employer-paid health insurance covers Blue and Red alike.
Could this be a ploy to exchange this line item for another?
If Democrats don't seize on this and make a HUGE noise about it, then we'll know that it truly is time to abandon the party and go somewhere else.
If Democrats don't seize on this and make a HUGE noise about it, then we'll know that it truly is time to abandon the party and go somewhere else.
First reaction (and not an economically grounded one, but a political one, more or less): Texans are gonna sh*t.
Kaye Bailey was all over the news just before the election, bragging that Texas had finally won back the right to deduct sales tax (no state income tax in Texas) from Federal taxes.
Now Bush wants to take that away?
The only real question is: is this a trial balloon, or part of Bush's "man-date"? If the latter, is this the point in the date where we get screwed?
First reaction (and not an economically grounded one, but a political one, more or less): Texans are gonna sh*t.
Kaye Bailey was all over the news just before the election, bragging that Texas had finally won back the right to deduct sales tax (no state income tax in Texas) from Federal taxes.
Now Bush wants to take that away?
The only real question is: is this a trial balloon, or part of Bush's "man-date"? If the latter, is this the point in the date where we get screwed?
The overall problem we are dealing with is that Bush supporters, right-wingers, red-staters--whatever they are called--are BRAINWASHED. Only an apocalyptic slate-wiping will change these people's minds, and, frankly, I don't think 120 million uninsured would be gruesome enough to open their eyes. They can't be reasoned with, you can't tell them the plain truth and expect them to believe it, you can't hold them out in the sunshine and make them believe it's not the night. I was just watching C-Span's early morning call-in, which focused for a time on the Clinton library opening, and the "Bush Supporters" were all in agreement that Clinton was the worst president in history who had debased the office and was a criminal who should essentially be led out to the woodshed and beaten with a stave, and of course, Bush has brought "integrity" back to the White House. The lemmings are no longer just scampering toward the cliff; they are driving the whole busload of us there with them.
The overall problem we are dealing with is that Bush supporters, right-wingers, red-staters--whatever they are called--are BRAINWASHED. Only an apocalyptic slate-wiping will change these people's minds, and, frankly, I don't think 120 million uninsured would be gruesome enough to open their eyes. They can't be reasoned with, you can't tell them the plain truth and expect them to believe it, you can't hold them out in the sunshine and make them believe it's not the night. I was just watching C-Span's early morning call-in, which focused for a time on the Clinton library opening, and the "Bush Supporters" were all in agreement that Clinton was the worst president in history who had debased the office and was a criminal who should essentially be led out to the woodshed and beaten with a stave, and of course, Bush has brought "integrity" back to the White House. The lemmings are no longer just scampering toward the cliff; they are driving the whole busload of us there with them.
Of course every cheering kool-aid drinker standing in the bushCo/Chenron audience during the campaign will now be going "huh? Nooo Nooo, this can't be. It's gotta be the democrat's fault!" As they see their healthcare cancellation letters come in the mail.
Unfortunately, as history is our guide, we MUST go through the pain, the purging and the panic before we realize we have all been fucked, not just by the repugs, who have NO SHAME in what they are, but by the dems too who are ashamed of what they do, try to hide it yet still do it anyway.
Of course every cheering kool-aid drinker standing in the bushCo/Chenron audience during the campaign will now be going "huh? Nooo Nooo, this can't be. It's gotta be the democrat's fault!" As they see their healthcare cancellation letters come in the mail.
Unfortunately, as history is our guide, we MUST go through the pain, the purging and the panic before we realize we have all been fucked, not just by the repugs, who have NO SHAME in what they are, but by the dems too who are ashamed of what they do, try to hide it yet still do it anyway.
How can we counter this? Write our congresspeople? How can we fight it? It's flat out disgusting.
I'm writing Ehlers, but he's in bed with Bush, so I'll probably just receive a form letter telling me I'm wrong.
Thanks for making me sick first thing this morning!
How can we counter this? Write our congresspeople? How can we fight it? It's flat out disgusting.
I'm writing Ehlers, but he's in bed with Bush, so I'll probably just receive a form letter telling me I'm wrong.
Thanks for making me sick first thing this morning!
Blue state and damn proud of it!
Blue state and damn proud of it!
Vicki, our congress-people will not only vote for it, they'll stand up and say it's a "win" for Americans thanks to our "bold leadership" by the president.
You haven't been paying attention, have you.
Vicki, our congress-people will not only vote for it, they'll stand up and say it's a "win" for Americans thanks to our "bold leadership" by the president.
You haven't been paying attention, have you.
As per usual, Steve Gilliard nails it:
Everyone is freaking out over the plan to elminate the deduction for health care, but that isn't the real kicker. It is the elimination of the state and local tax deduction which will blow the plan up. That's far more important than health insurance and in an immediate way. In New York, that deduction saves thousands a year, directly. Now, that's not a big deal in Texas, but if they want the GOP not to die in the Northeast, well, they might want to reconsider that.
When the news of this reaches New York's papers, the screaming will be as if someone jammed a poker up someone's ass. Unpopular wouldn't be the word. The old age lobby will scream about the health insurance plans, because that would affect pensions as well, that could easily die in committee. But the state and local tax plan will make people go nuts. Because that will be seen in people's wallets immediately. Mind-bogglingly stupid isn't the word for this...
As per usual, Steve Gilliard nails it:
Everyone is freaking out over the plan to elminate the deduction for health care, but that isn't the real kicker. It is the elimination of the state and local tax deduction which will blow the plan up. That's far more important than health insurance and in an immediate way. In New York, that deduction saves thousands a year, directly. Now, that's not a big deal in Texas, but if they want the GOP not to die in the Northeast, well, they might want to reconsider that.
When the news of this reaches New York's papers, the screaming will be as if someone jammed a poker up someone's ass. Unpopular wouldn't be the word. The old age lobby will scream about the health insurance plans, because that would affect pensions as well, that could easily die in committee. But the state and local tax plan will make people go nuts. Because that will be seen in people's wallets immediately. Mind-bogglingly stupid isn't the word for this...
Here's a list of talking points distilled from the comments in this thread. I'm no wordsmith, but edit away, and contact political organizations and press them to put some media traction to this (make the DNC compete to have the loudest voice of outrage).
Talking points:
1. Capital gains, interest, dividends tax shield disproportionately reduces tax burden for “idle-monied” rich: “those that got in Bush’s last term will get more”
2. [Proposal] gets rid of all taxes on the passive income of the rich, shift the tax burden onto the working middle class, and make health care less affordable, all with the stroke of a single pen.
3. “Large [personal] savings accounts” won’t work to reduce taxes for working class if you are living check to check.
4. Bush’s father already tried this, and where did it get us? This is really the theft of the entire United States treasury AND the earnings of the American People.
5. Why is Bush promoting class warfare in the United States?
6. Many Americans can say goodbye to health insurance from their employer.
Green Party
Nader
Libertarian Party
Green Party
Here's a list of talking points distilled from the comments in this thread. I'm no wordsmith, but edit away, and contact political organizations and press them to put some media traction to this (make the DNC compete to have the loudest voice of outrage).
Talking points:
1. Capital gains, interest, dividends tax shield disproportionately reduces tax burden for “idle-monied” rich: “those that got in Bush’s last term will get more”
2. [Proposal] gets rid of all taxes on the passive income of the rich, shift the tax burden onto the working middle class, and make health care less affordable, all with the stroke of a single pen.
3. “Large [personal] savings accounts” won’t work to reduce taxes for working class if you are living check to check.
4. Bush’s father already tried this, and where did it get us? This is really the theft of the entire United States treasury AND the earnings of the American People.
5. Why is Bush promoting class warfare in the United States?
6. Many Americans can say goodbye to health insurance from their employer.
Green Party
Nader
Libertarian Party
Green Party
Sorry you're dieing from cancer. Want a "Support Our Troops" yellow ribbon for your car? It'll make you feel better!
Sorry you're dieing from cancer. Want a "Support Our Troops" yellow ribbon for your car? It'll make you feel better!
I'm self-employed. I wonder if this means that the tax deduction for self-employed health insurance premiums disappears, too? Somehow I don't think I really need to wonder all that much.
They are so concerned for that the non-work income of the wealthy is not taxed "twice". Doesn't the elimination of the deduction for state and local taxes mean that this income will be taxed twice?
Welcome to Brazil, c. 1968.
I'm self-employed. I wonder if this means that the tax deduction for self-employed health insurance premiums disappears, too? Somehow I don't think I really need to wonder all that much.
They are so concerned for that the non-work income of the wealthy is not taxed "twice". Doesn't the elimination of the deduction for state and local taxes mean that this income will be taxed twice?
Welcome to Brazil, c. 1968.
On a side note, I wonder how many doctors will be driven out of business under this plan?
You know, who the hell cares?
Physicians are major enablers of Bush's assault on the concept of universal health care. When Bush got in front of the American people and told them that health care wasn't affordable only because we didn't have tort reform, how many physicians did you hear howl in protest, declaring that that was NOT the real problem?
Answer: NONE, or at least none that anybody heard from, including, most conspicuously, none representing the AMA.
And why didn't physicians raise a ruckus? Because, first and foremost, they want to make sure that malpractice insurance goes down, so that they can earn, on average, a lot more than the miserable 200-300K that they have to put up with, an income hardly fair compensation for such remarkable creatures such as they.
Physicians have always been the ones most responsible for taking the whole health care issue away from the Democrats, because they must first of all satisfy their own considerable greed before they are willing to talk about anything else. They pimp off the clout of the so-called "noble profession" to the Republicans, then act innocent when, in election after election, Republicans win in no small part because they can defuse the enormous problem otherwise raised for them by non-universal health care.
Pigs.
On a side note, I wonder how many doctors will be driven out of business under this plan?
You know, who the hell cares?
Physicians are major enablers of Bush's assault on the concept of universal health care. When Bush got in front of the American people and told them that health care wasn't affordable only because we didn't have tort reform, how many physicians did you hear howl in protest, declaring that that was NOT the real problem?
Answer: NONE, or at least none that anybody heard from, including, most conspicuously, none representing the AMA.
And why didn't physicians raise a ruckus? Because, first and foremost, they want to make sure that malpractice insurance goes down, so that they can earn, on average, a lot more than the miserable 200-300K that they have to put up with, an income hardly fair compensation for such remarkable creatures such as they.
Physicians have always been the ones most responsible for taking the whole health care issue away from the Democrats, because they must first of all satisfy their own considerable greed before they are willing to talk about anything else. They pimp off the clout of the so-called "noble profession" to the Republicans, then act innocent when, in election after election, Republicans win in no small part because they can defuse the enormous problem otherwise raised for them by non-universal health care.
Pigs.
"bye bye health insurance for a hell of a lot of people."
That's the plan!
Their 35 year plan to make this country a third world country is coming to fruition BIG Time!
In ten years we won't recognize this country. These are really crimes against the people.
"bye bye health insurance for a hell of a lot of people."
That's the plan!
Their 35 year plan to make this country a third world country is coming to fruition BIG Time!
In ten years we won't recognize this country. These are really crimes against the people.
I sent a comment to the DNC and both my Senators.
Still thinking about the doctors, I would think that some specialty groups might get pinched by this.
If the result of something like this is to push people into high deductible plans, why would a middle class individual pay out of pocket for stuff like preventive care or something like their every 3 month visit to the Podiatrist or the Physical Therapist? They wouldn't.
I sent a comment to the DNC and both my Senators.
Still thinking about the doctors, I would think that some specialty groups might get pinched by this.
If the result of something like this is to push people into high deductible plans, why would a middle class individual pay out of pocket for stuff like preventive care or something like their every 3 month visit to the Podiatrist or the Physical Therapist? They wouldn't.
The NYT carries accounts of Schumer and Leahy fawning all over Gonzalez...DeLay gets a major pass from the House rules...Bush launches a major purge of whatever moderate voices exist in the foreign policy establishment and the new head of the Department State is a manifest incompetent..and the CIA chief all but brags that he intends to neutralize his agency....
And the Democrats put up Harry Reid--another Red State rabbit who is beholden to various and sundry wackos to stay in office?
We are so totally screwed...
The NYT carries accounts of Schumer and Leahy fawning all over Gonzalez...DeLay gets a major pass from the House rules...Bush launches a major purge of whatever moderate voices exist in the foreign policy establishment and the new head of the Department State is a manifest incompetent..and the CIA chief all but brags that he intends to neutralize his agency....
And the Democrats put up Harry Reid--another Red State rabbit who is beholden to various and sundry wackos to stay in office?
We are so totally screwed...
Well, at least it doesnt affect us. I'm self-employed and my husband is a "contractor" so neither of us gets health care without paying the full cost anyway.
Meaning, of course, that we're uninsured right now. Have been for about 5 years...
Well, at least it doesnt affect us. I'm self-employed and my husband is a "contractor" so neither of us gets health care without paying the full cost anyway.
Meaning, of course, that we're uninsured right now. Have been for about 5 years...
Thank you Atrios. I spit out my coffee when I read this gem in the Washington Post this morning.
As owners of a small business (it's just the two of us), my husband and I have been able to offset the pain of our high insurance premiums with a grudging "well, at least it's deductible" at tax time.
Last week, our premiums went up from $655 per month to $748 per month. That's $8,976 per year. If we can't deduct that as a business expense off the top of our corporate revenue, that $9k flows down to us as personal "income." That could result in us having to pay higher taxes on our 1040 (and certainly will result in higher taxes if the local/state deduction is removed).
So the net effect will be that we pay more tax for the privilege of paying $9k per year for health insurance.
Doesn't matter if you're Oracle Corporation, but if you're a two-person business trying to feed your family of four, it makes a WHOPPING difference.
Oh, did I mention that the "benefits" of our health plan include a $1000 annual deductible ($500 per person), $25 copay for routine office visits, and 80/20 for everything else? Plus $50 ER fee for just signing in (on top of the 80/20).
But at least Bush didn't get his dick sucked in the Oval Office, so I guess I don't mind.
Thank you Atrios. I spit out my coffee when I read this gem in the Washington Post this morning.
As owners of a small business (it's just the two of us), my husband and I have been able to offset the pain of our high insurance premiums with a grudging "well, at least it's deductible" at tax time.
Last week, our premiums went up from $655 per month to $748 per month. That's $8,976 per year. If we can't deduct that as a business expense off the top of our corporate revenue, that $9k flows down to us as personal "income." That could result in us having to pay higher taxes on our 1040 (and certainly will result in higher taxes if the local/state deduction is removed).
So the net effect will be that we pay more tax for the privilege of paying $9k per year for health insurance.
Doesn't matter if you're Oracle Corporation, but if you're a two-person business trying to feed your family of four, it makes a WHOPPING difference.
Oh, did I mention that the "benefits" of our health plan include a $1000 annual deductible ($500 per person), $25 copay for routine office visits, and 80/20 for everything else? Plus $50 ER fee for just signing in (on top of the 80/20).
But at least Bush didn't get his dick sucked in the Oval Office, so I guess I don't mind.
Oh BTW, OT:
Driving Votes is running a petition to try and convince Dean to run for party chair. I for one think it's a great idea. Go sign it!
Oh BTW, OT:
Driving Votes is running a petition to try and convince Dean to run for party chair. I for one think it's a great idea. Go sign it!
I agree that the health insurance scheme will probably be dropped -- so that they can claim that what remains of the proposal is more reasonable. But how many of you would exchange your state tax deduction for the elimination of the capital gains tax you pay? Only the very richest. This is a tax cut for the wealthiest 1% at the expense of the entire middle class.
I agree that the health insurance scheme will probably be dropped -- so that they can claim that what remains of the proposal is more reasonable. But how many of you would exchange your state tax deduction for the elimination of the capital gains tax you pay? Only the very richest. This is a tax cut for the wealthiest 1% at the expense of the entire middle class.
Well, if we the people are being asked to shoulder the burden alone without help from employers, and if I don't hear UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE from the lips of every Democrat, then the party can officially be pronounced dead and gone.
If only Greens had a seat at the main table.
Well, if we the people are being asked to shoulder the burden alone without help from employers, and if I don't hear UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE from the lips of every Democrat, then the party can officially be pronounced dead and gone.
If only Greens had a seat at the main table.
dave - that's what I'm thinking - the loss of the deduction for state income tax is going to be the major part of this legislation.
I think Gilliard's right. This is incredible.
dave - that's what I'm thinking - the loss of the deduction for state income tax is going to be the major part of this legislation.
I think Gilliard's right. This is incredible.
I feel as if the veil has now been lifted. You are now witnessing (in slow motion, no less) the dismantling and systematic destruction of what we THOUGHT America was but in fact was just an illusion. The time for "making the populace" feel comfy-cozy is gone. We will now transform into a militaristic oligarchy bent on global domination...But no longer try to hide it. That was the remaining vestige of any semblance of "sanity" that prevented mass hysteria and flight from the US. Now that the veil has been lifted and even those who we THOUGHT were on "our side" are revealed to not even give a shit, let the exodus begin.
My only worry is...To where?
I feel as if the veil has now been lifted. You are now witnessing (in slow motion, no less) the dismantling and systematic destruction of what we THOUGHT America was but in fact was just an illusion. The time for "making the populace" feel comfy-cozy is gone. We will now transform into a militaristic oligarchy bent on global domination...But no longer try to hide it. That was the remaining vestige of any semblance of "sanity" that prevented mass hysteria and flight from the US. Now that the veil has been lifted and even those who we THOUGHT were on "our side" are revealed to not even give a shit, let the exodus begin.
My only worry is...To where?
OT: Hey, I'm famous! I feel like Navin Johnson finding his name in the phone book.
http://tinyurl.com/5j8x6
OT: Hey, I'm famous! I feel like Navin Johnson finding his name in the phone book.
http://tinyurl.com/5j8x6
It's not just New York where this is going to cause people's heads to explode - the same is true in every state where there is a state income tax - California and Colorado are two that jump to mind first.
Wow.
It's not just New York where this is going to cause people's heads to explode - the same is true in every state where there is a state income tax - California and Colorado are two that jump to mind first.
Wow.
I am so pissed after reading this post! I just copied and pasted Atrios' post and link and sent it to everyone I know, urging them to write their representatives and senators immediately.
I'm not part of the privileged upper crust in this country (although I have a fine life, don't get me wrong ~ I'm just not part of the entitlement society), and neither are my friends. Every last one of them will be outraged.
I am so pissed after reading this post! I just copied and pasted Atrios' post and link and sent it to everyone I know, urging them to write their representatives and senators immediately.
I'm not part of the privileged upper crust in this country (although I have a fine life, don't get me wrong ~ I'm just not part of the entitlement society), and neither are my friends. Every last one of them will be outraged.
let's consider distributing a talking points list to political organizations:
Revised talking points
1. Capital gains, interest, dividends tax shield disproportionately reduces tax burden for “idle-monied” rich: “those that got in Bush’s last term will get more”
2. [Proposal] gets rid of all taxes on the passive income of the rich, shift the tax burden onto the working middle class by taking away the state and local tax deduction, and make health care less affordable, all with the stroke of a single pen.
3. “Large [personal] savings accounts” won’t work to reduce taxes for the working class if you are living check to check.
4. Bush’s father already tried this, and where did it get us? This is really the theft of the entire United States treasury AND the earnings of the American People.
5. Why is Bush promoting class warfare in the United States?
6. Many Americans can say goodbye to health insurance from their employer.
7. With this plan, we can all say goodbye to federal deductions for state and local income taxes
8. Why is Bush trying to make the working class poorer and the rich richer?
Green Party
Nader
Libertarian Party
Green Party
let's consider distributing a talking points list to political organizations:
Revised talking points
1. Capital gains, interest, dividends tax shield disproportionately reduces tax burden for “idle-monied” rich: “those that got in Bush’s last term will get more”
2. [Proposal] gets rid of all taxes on the passive income of the rich, shift the tax burden onto the working middle class by taking away the state and local tax deduction, and make health care less affordable, all with the stroke of a single pen.
3. “Large [personal] savings accounts” won’t work to reduce taxes for the working class if you are living check to check.
4. Bush’s father already tried this, and where did it get us? This is really the theft of the entire United States treasury AND the earnings of the American People.
5. Why is Bush promoting class warfare in the United States?
6. Many Americans can say goodbye to health insurance from their employer.
7. With this plan, we can all say goodbye to federal deductions for state and local income taxes
8. Why is Bush trying to make the working class poorer and the rich richer?
Green Party
Nader
Libertarian Party
Green Party
Michigan taxes income, too. At both the state and local levels.
Michigan taxes income, too. At both the state and local levels.
Once again, dump the tax burden on the middle class. Property taxes (which account for the majority of local and state taxes) are not progressive. Granted the wealthy generally pay more in property tax, but it is hardly proportionate to income. When will Americans wise up? A progressive income tax if the fairest tax system available, both on a federal and state level. Yet the right wing noise machine makes ssuch a stink about state income tax that the people who would benefit from it (ie - the middle class) speak out against it as well. If dems don't fight this with all they've got, then it's time to look for a new party. Howard Dean, if you don't get the DNC chair, will you start up a Progressive Party? I'm on board.
Once again, dump the tax burden on the middle class. Property taxes (which account for the majority of local and state taxes) are not progressive. Granted the wealthy generally pay more in property tax, but it is hardly proportionate to income. When will Americans wise up? A progressive income tax if the fairest tax system available, both on a federal and state level. Yet the right wing noise machine makes ssuch a stink about state income tax that the people who would benefit from it (ie - the middle class) speak out against it as well. If dems don't fight this with all they've got, then it's time to look for a new party. Howard Dean, if you don't get the DNC chair, will you start up a Progressive Party? I'm on board.
Jack sez:
I feel as if the veil has now been lifted. You are now witnessing (in slow motion, no less) the dismantling and systematic destruction of what we THOUGHT America was but in fact was just an illusion.
I concur, but what's striking to me is the alarming speed of it all. Like they think there won't actually be that second inaugural and are cramming their purses full of pens while they still have access to the building.
Jack sez:
I feel as if the veil has now been lifted. You are now witnessing (in slow motion, no less) the dismantling and systematic destruction of what we THOUGHT America was but in fact was just an illusion.
I concur, but what's striking to me is the alarming speed of it all. Like they think there won't actually be that second inaugural and are cramming their purses full of pens while they still have access to the building.
The LePetomaine presidency
Bwaaaaaaa-
That it, Barndog, from now on I do refer to him as President LePetomaine.
Thank you.
The LePetomaine presidency
Bwaaaaaaa-
That it, Barndog, from now on I do refer to him as President LePetomaine.
Thank you.
I don't get it.
Not good for small business
Not good for employees
Not good for insurance industry
Not "tax relief"
Who gains from this policy?
I don't get it.
Not good for small business
Not good for employees
Not good for insurance industry
Not "tax relief"
Who gains from this policy?
If dems don't fight this with all they've got, then it's time to look for a new party.
Tell the DNC to fight it, or else, and strengthen the threat by urging third parties to become involved.
If dems don't fight this with all they've got, then it's time to look for a new party.
Tell the DNC to fight it, or else, and strengthen the threat by urging third parties to become involved.
OK, now there are many who say the business tax deduction distorts the markets in that it forces the employment-insurance link (and hurts those who work for small businesses that can't afford it even with the deduction, as well as the self-employed, the unemployed, etc.). I happen to agree with them that it distorts the markets. But I also happen to agree that it's a good idea because it does give employers the incentive to offer insurance. Employer based insurance is cheaper insurance because you pool risk, get group pricing discounts, etc.
This is all part of this "ownership society" crap. They want us to "own" our own insurance. What they don't say is that we'll all be in the individual market, which is more expensive, renders many of us with chronic diseases as "uninsurable" (good luck getting insurance if you have diabetes or heart disease) and is just plain nuts.
Single payer now.
OK, now there are many who say the business tax deduction distorts the markets in that it forces the employment-insurance link (and hurts those who work for small businesses that can't afford it even with the deduction, as well as the self-employed, the unemployed, etc.). I happen to agree with them that it distorts the markets. But I also happen to agree that it's a good idea because it does give employers the incentive to offer insurance. Employer based insurance is cheaper insurance because you pool risk, get group pricing discounts, etc.
This is all part of this "ownership society" crap. They want us to "own" our own insurance. What they don't say is that we'll all be in the individual market, which is more expensive, renders many of us with chronic diseases as "uninsurable" (good luck getting insurance if you have diabetes or heart disease) and is just plain nuts.
Single payer now.
Gee, no trolls commenting this morning?
Gee, no trolls commenting this morning?
Yoshimi,
The point is to get the money to give breaks to folks with lots of investment income, I gather.
Yoshimi,
The point is to get the money to give breaks to folks with lots of investment income, I gather.
On a side note, I wonder how many doctors will be driven out of business under this plan?
You know, who the hell cares?
Cheers, frankly0
You are absolutely right! Physicians are a major part of this problem. Ever since they were able to become multiple corporations themselves and become vomitingly wealthy, they have joined the ranks of the ruling classes out to impoverish the people and take over all the money and all the power. It is just part of the grand plan of the corrupt ruling classes which the Repugs have embraced 100%. Just take a look at Bill Frist if you need an obvious example but really, one has only to look at the local quack shops and their sucking up to the Pharmas or the large University associated narco medico. There is no medical care anymore. There is only pills and procedures sold at high prices.
On a side note, I wonder how many doctors will be driven out of business under this plan?
You know, who the hell cares?
Cheers, frankly0
You are absolutely right! Physicians are a major part of this problem. Ever since they were able to become multiple corporations themselves and become vomitingly wealthy, they have joined the ranks of the ruling classes out to impoverish the people and take over all the money and all the power. It is just part of the grand plan of the corrupt ruling classes which the Repugs have embraced 100%. Just take a look at Bill Frist if you need an obvious example but really, one has only to look at the local quack shops and their sucking up to the Pharmas or the large University associated narco medico. There is no medical care anymore. There is only pills and procedures sold at high prices.
Don't you feel like the person at the back of the theater who was yelling at Indiana Jones not to trust that guy with the monocle, but he just wouldn't listen?
Don't you feel like the person at the back of the theater who was yelling at Indiana Jones not to trust that guy with the monocle, but he just wouldn't listen?
Pie, the trolls haven't received their talking points yet.
Pie, the trolls haven't received their talking points yet.
Yoshimi,
The point is to get the money to give breaks to folks with lots of investment income, I gather.
NYMary
The outlandish part of the proposed "reform" (elimination of deductions for employer-provided health care, elimination of deductions for state and local income tax) is designed to pay for the elimination of the tax burden on dividends, interest, and capital gains, all forms of income largely generated by the rich, who have lots of "idle money" to generate investment income.
Yoshimi,
The point is to get the money to give breaks to folks with lots of investment income, I gather.
NYMary
The outlandish part of the proposed "reform" (elimination of deductions for employer-provided health care, elimination of deductions for state and local income tax) is designed to pay for the elimination of the tax burden on dividends, interest, and capital gains, all forms of income largely generated by the rich, who have lots of "idle money" to generate investment income.
That's quite the picture of georgie in the ad above the WaPo article.
He looks like the class idiot.
That's quite the picture of georgie in the ad above the WaPo article.
He looks like the class idiot.
To pay for them, the administration is considering eliminating the deduction of state and local taxes on federal income tax returns
I was predicting last week that this would happen - you had to know that Bush would squeeze the blue states to pay for his "reform".
To pay for them, the administration is considering eliminating the deduction of state and local taxes on federal income tax returns
I was predicting last week that this would happen - you had to know that Bush would squeeze the blue states to pay for his "reform".
I don't get it.
Not good for small business
Not good for employees
Not good for insurance industry
Not "tax relief"
Who gains from this policy?
Yoshimi
Nobody...and Chimpco knows this...he also knows that the House and Senate will exchange almost ANYTHING to shitcan this item from his "plan".
We have to shitcan it before it EVER comes up discussion. Call or write your Reps and Senators and DEMAND to know how they intend to vote on this. DEMAND it be stricken from the plan TODAY. The GOP shitcanned Hillary's health care plan this way...by mobilizing the masses.
And we're at least justified in our outrage.
I don't get it.
Not good for small business
Not good for employees
Not good for insurance industry
Not "tax relief"
Who gains from this policy?
Yoshimi
Nobody...and Chimpco knows this...he also knows that the House and Senate will exchange almost ANYTHING to shitcan this item from his "plan".
We have to shitcan it before it EVER comes up discussion. Call or write your Reps and Senators and DEMAND to know how they intend to vote on this. DEMAND it be stricken from the plan TODAY. The GOP shitcanned Hillary's health care plan this way...by mobilizing the masses.
And we're at least justified in our outrage.
is designed to pay for the elimination of the tax burden on dividends, interest, and capital gains, all forms of income largely generated by the rich, who have lots of "idle money" to generate investment income.-GN
Nail meet hammer head.
is designed to pay for the elimination of the tax burden on dividends, interest, and capital gains, all forms of income largely generated by the rich, who have lots of "idle money" to generate investment income.-GN
Nail meet hammer head.
Just curious...will the insurance industry let this happen while they idly sit by? True, it's repulsive the administration would even try to float this trial balloon, but is there really any chance of it coming to pass?
Just curious...will the insurance industry let this happen while they idly sit by? True, it's repulsive the administration would even try to float this trial balloon, but is there really any chance of it coming to pass?
Dom,
That's what I think. Punitive taxation.
Dom,
That's what I think. Punitive taxation.
I don't see how this can please the Norquists of the world, since the net effect is not to lower taxes but to shift the tax burden.
Trickle down, baby. Taking away the deduction fo state and local taxes will force a very localized debate about the tax burden in your town, ending up with people demanding tax cuts on a local level, enabling the shrinking of even those government services.
Remember, in the Mother Jones article about him, Norquist said his ideal American is a "self employed, home schooled gun owner."
I'm seriously not sure if this is just a ploy. Look at the commotion, already. Any compromise that doesn't include health care and s&l dectiion elimination will look like they actually compromised from whatever draconian plan they really have in mind, and make the public feel like we won.
The more I think about this, the less I see its viability.
This is a lot of political capital to squander, after such a divisive election.
I don't see how this can please the Norquists of the world, since the net effect is not to lower taxes but to shift the tax burden.
Trickle down, baby. Taking away the deduction fo state and local taxes will force a very localized debate about the tax burden in your town, ending up with people demanding tax cuts on a local level, enabling the shrinking of even those government services.
Remember, in the Mother Jones article about him, Norquist said his ideal American is a "self employed, home schooled gun owner."
I'm seriously not sure if this is just a ploy. Look at the commotion, already. Any compromise that doesn't include health care and s&l dectiion elimination will look like they actually compromised from whatever draconian plan they really have in mind, and make the public feel like we won.
The more I think about this, the less I see its viability.
This is a lot of political capital to squander, after such a divisive election.
It's not rope a dope, it is a part of their plan to destroy the middle class. Small business owners are just about as stupid as undecided voters (see Hullabaloo) and will just about always vote against their own interests. So as a group the Republicans can take them for granted. But you'll never have to hear our press mouthing that one.
They want to keep the peons in a state of constant desperation, it's so much easier to contol us that way. Read about the taxation systems in the Roman and other ancient empires. It's where it's all headed.
It's not rope a dope, it is a part of their plan to destroy the middle class. Small business owners are just about as stupid as undecided voters (see Hullabaloo) and will just about always vote against their own interests. So as a group the Republicans can take them for granted. But you'll never have to hear our press mouthing that one.
They want to keep the peons in a state of constant desperation, it's so much easier to contol us that way. Read about the taxation systems in the Roman and other ancient empires. It's where it's all headed.
Pie,
Health policy doesn't involve blowing up brown people, so the trolly trolls merely sit here reading our comments with slack jaws and their mouth-breath fogging their monitor screens. They slowly remove one hand from their pants and scratch their jaws. Then they go to the Fox News site, which has some nifty video of explosions in Fallujah.
Freeper trolls enlist!
Single payer now!
Pie,
Health policy doesn't involve blowing up brown people, so the trolly trolls merely sit here reading our comments with slack jaws and their mouth-breath fogging their monitor screens. They slowly remove one hand from their pants and scratch their jaws. Then they go to the Fox News site, which has some nifty video of explosions in Fallujah.
Freeper trolls enlist!
Single payer now!
you had to know that Bush would squeeze the blue states to pay for his "reform".
Dom
And we need to begin to squeeze back at this mothersucker. You're right, he's doing nothing unexpected. He's also banking on the expected complacency of his opposition. We need to do the unexpected here and tap into the resources we assembled for the presidential campaign to vigorously resist his every thievish move. Write the DNC and tell them to take a small portion of that $45 million to place full page ads in small town newspapers unequivocally trashing every misstep Bush has taken since the "election" so provocatively that the "angry ad" pisses off unrepentent Bushists and gets traction on local news broadcasts. Tell the DNC that we'd better not see NYT ads and op-ed pieces; we need to see a media blitz where it is most effective.
you had to know that Bush would squeeze the blue states to pay for his "reform".
Dom
And we need to begin to squeeze back at this mothersucker. You're right, he's doing nothing unexpected. He's also banking on the expected complacency of his opposition. We need to do the unexpected here and tap into the resources we assembled for the presidential campaign to vigorously resist his every thievish move. Write the DNC and tell them to take a small portion of that $45 million to place full page ads in small town newspapers unequivocally trashing every misstep Bush has taken since the "election" so provocatively that the "angry ad" pisses off unrepentent Bushists and gets traction on local news broadcasts. Tell the DNC that we'd better not see NYT ads and op-ed pieces; we need to see a media blitz where it is most effective.
Health policy doesn't involve blowing up brown people, so the trolly trolls merely sit here reading our comments with slack jaws and their mouth-breath fogging their monitor screens. They slowly remove one hand from their pants and scratch their jaws. Then they go to the Fox News site, which has some nifty video of explosions in Fallujah.
Bwhahaha....thank you...first laugh of the morning.
Health policy doesn't involve blowing up brown people, so the trolly trolls merely sit here reading our comments with slack jaws and their mouth-breath fogging their monitor screens. They slowly remove one hand from their pants and scratch their jaws. Then they go to the Fox News site, which has some nifty video of explosions in Fallujah.
Bwhahaha....thank you...first laugh of the morning.
Physicians are a major part of this problem. Ever since they were able to become multiple corporations themselves and become vomitingly wealthy, they have joined the ranks of the ruling classes out to impoverish the people and take over all the money and all the power.
Spot on, Cass.
The thing that disgusts me most about them is their rank hypocrisy. Most of them know it's not cool, as purportedly scientific, reality-based types to side with the likes of Bush and friends, and that it's especially not cool when they're supposed to be all compassionate and everything. It tends to be downright embarrassing in their social circles to be on the side of greed and ignorance.
So they typically put up a huge front of being against Bush and the Republicans, and being personally very much on the progressive side.
But when the issue of "tort reform" comes up, as being THE basic issue in health care reform, do they say "boo" in protest? OF COURSE NOT. If you ask them personally whether they agree with the reactionary AMA on this point, they may say, Oh no. But do they take any RESPONSIBILITY for what is done in their name, and which furthers their personal pecuniary gains? OF COURSE NOT.
As I said, before: Pigs.
Physicians are a major part of this problem. Ever since they were able to become multiple corporations themselves and become vomitingly wealthy, they have joined the ranks of the ruling classes out to impoverish the people and take over all the money and all the power.
Spot on, Cass.
The thing that disgusts me most about them is their rank hypocrisy. Most of them know it's not cool, as purportedly scientific, reality-based types to side with the likes of Bush and friends, and that it's especially not cool when they're supposed to be all compassionate and everything. It tends to be downright embarrassing in their social circles to be on the side of greed and ignorance.
So they typically put up a huge front of being against Bush and the Republicans, and being personally very much on the progressive side.
But when the issue of "tort reform" comes up, as being THE basic issue in health care reform, do they say "boo" in protest? OF COURSE NOT. If you ask them personally whether they agree with the reactionary AMA on this point, they may say, Oh no. But do they take any RESPONSIBILITY for what is done in their name, and which furthers their personal pecuniary gains? OF COURSE NOT.
As I said, before: Pigs.
Okay, now I'll try it in English:
I'm seriously not sure if this isn't just a ploy. Look at the commotion, already. Any compromise that doesn't include health care and s&l deductions elimination will look like they actually compromised from whatever draconian plan they really have in mind, and make the public feel like we won.
The more I think about this, the less I see its viability.
This is a lot of political capital to squander, after such a divisive election.
Even for those arrogant fucktards.
At least I hope that was English.
Okay, now I'll try it in English:
I'm seriously not sure if this isn't just a ploy. Look at the commotion, already. Any compromise that doesn't include health care and s&l deductions elimination will look like they actually compromised from whatever draconian plan they really have in mind, and make the public feel like we won.
The more I think about this, the less I see its viability.
This is a lot of political capital to squander, after such a divisive election.
Even for those arrogant fucktards.
At least I hope that was English.
Many Republicans on the Ways & Means Comm are genuininely irritated that there is any connection between employers and health care. They see it as an "accident" of history (in the 30s-50s, wage controls "forced" employers to provide add'l fringe benefits).
This is one of the Republican Party's long-range goals, and there have been incremental steps taken (e.g. MSAs). The goal here, like in broader tax policy, is to get real close to the goal before having the broader debate of whether it is a good thing or not.
Many Republicans on the Ways & Means Comm are genuininely irritated that there is any connection between employers and health care. They see it as an "accident" of history (in the 30s-50s, wage controls "forced" employers to provide add'l fringe benefits).
This is one of the Republican Party's long-range goals, and there have been incremental steps taken (e.g. MSAs). The goal here, like in broader tax policy, is to get real close to the goal before having the broader debate of whether it is a good thing or not.
Haven't read all comments yet, but here's just one thing I don't get. I thought the reason for the state and local taxes deduction was to eliminate double taxation, so we wouldn't be paying fed taxes on the portion of income that had already been taxed.
Do I have this wrong? Isn't double taxation the big bugaboo argument for eliminating the estate tax?
Haven't read all comments yet, but here's just one thing I don't get. I thought the reason for the state and local taxes deduction was to eliminate double taxation, so we wouldn't be paying fed taxes on the portion of income that had already been taxed.
Do I have this wrong? Isn't double taxation the big bugaboo argument for eliminating the estate tax?
I think it could be bait and switch. This administration plays this game. They propose something outrageous, like elimination the tax deduction for state income taxes, and when that is refused, they come back with what they really wanted.
I have no idea what they may really want, but I don't think the states will go for this. Maybe it's a smoke screen to get legislators to concentrate on this aspect and leave the other things, like elimination the deduction for health insurance, intact.
Man, this is a killer for small businesses and Bush campaigned to them. Told them Kerry would put them out of business.
I think it could be bait and switch. This administration plays this game. They propose something outrageous, like elimination the tax deduction for state income taxes, and when that is refused, they come back with what they really wanted.
I have no idea what they may really want, but I don't think the states will go for this. Maybe it's a smoke screen to get legislators to concentrate on this aspect and leave the other things, like elimination the deduction for health insurance, intact.
Man, this is a killer for small businesses and Bush campaigned to them. Told them Kerry would put them out of business.
By the way, Ellen Goodman's column in today's Boston Globe on what a fraud Specter is is worth reading, also Mark Jerkowitz's column about Old Bob Edwards is interesting too. He's complaining about NPR management but in the article it's mostly about style instead of content. Apparently there is word that no one from NPR is allowed on his new show. I suspect it was Nina T. who is the unnamed NPR personality in the story. Tough, knowing Old Bob it might be the sports guy too.
"Don't let the posy fool ya."
By the way, Ellen Goodman's column in today's Boston Globe on what a fraud Specter is is worth reading, also Mark Jerkowitz's column about Old Bob Edwards is interesting too. He's complaining about NPR management but in the article it's mostly about style instead of content. Apparently there is word that no one from NPR is allowed on his new show. I suspect it was Nina T. who is the unnamed NPR personality in the story. Tough, knowing Old Bob it might be the sports guy too.
"Don't let the posy fool ya."
Howard Dean, if you don't get the DNC chair, will you start up a Progressive Party? I'm on board.
Hear, hear.
Howard Dean, if you don't get the DNC chair, will you start up a Progressive Party? I'm on board.
Hear, hear.
The GOP shitcanned Hillary's health care plan this way...by mobilizing the masses.- ZuZu's Petals
Actually, it was shitcanned by the insurance industry. It was the largest advertizing campaign ever and the most money ever spent, (at the time), devoted to changing public opinion on a single issue- it was not a grass roots effort, it was funded fully by the industry.
The GOP shitcanned Hillary's health care plan this way...by mobilizing the masses.- ZuZu's Petals
Actually, it was shitcanned by the insurance industry. It was the largest advertizing campaign ever and the most money ever spent, (at the time), devoted to changing public opinion on a single issue- it was not a grass roots effort, it was funded fully by the industry.
cs - WRT double taxation - I already asked that right off the bat because that's the first thing that occurred to me. There are laws against double taxation. I guess the administration wants those repealed.
But I think this could be a bait and switch.
cs - WRT double taxation - I already asked that right off the bat because that's the first thing that occurred to me. There are laws against double taxation. I guess the administration wants those repealed.
But I think this could be a bait and switch.
Way upthread, but you guys gotta give SWR some credit. The trial lawyer thing is the Republican lie (almost wrote spin), not SWR's actual belief.
Way upthread, but you guys gotta give SWR some credit. The trial lawyer thing is the Republican lie (almost wrote spin), not SWR's actual belief.
Adding onto what GN said at 9:47 AM ~
MoveOn.org is having meetings all across the country on Sunday regarding the role MoveOn will play in the next four years, and what they can focus on now to effect change. If you can't attend one of the meetings in your area, contact them at http://www.moveon.org/feedback/ and offer your thoughts.
Adding onto what GN said at 9:47 AM ~
MoveOn.org is having meetings all across the country on Sunday regarding the role MoveOn will play in the next four years, and what they can focus on now to effect change. If you can't attend one of the meetings in your area, contact them at http://www.moveon.org/feedback/ and offer your thoughts.
eliminating - I put elimination when I should have used eliminating, twice.
Oy - drink more caffeine, come back when fingers work.
eliminating - I put elimination when I should have used eliminating, twice.
Oy - drink more caffeine, come back when fingers work.
The thing that disgusts me most about them is their rank hypocrisy. Most of them know it's not cool, as purportedly scientific, reality-based types to side with the likes of Bush and friends, and that it's especially not cool when they're supposed to be all compassionate and everything. It tends to be downright embarrassing in their social circles to be on the side of greed and ignorance.
Let's not lump all physicians in here. My mother is an emergency room physician in a large city. This will outrage her, as she already sees far too many patients with illnesses which could have been prevented if the patients had a primary care physician. She'll be seeing far more of these frustratingly preventable medical crises and it won't be pretty. She's a top 1% earner, and hates Bush as much as the vast majority of her colleagues. Let's not trash all physicians here; there are quite a few who actually care very much about the wellbeing of their patients.
The thing that disgusts me most about them is their rank hypocrisy. Most of them know it's not cool, as purportedly scientific, reality-based types to side with the likes of Bush and friends, and that it's especially not cool when they're supposed to be all compassionate and everything. It tends to be downright embarrassing in their social circles to be on the side of greed and ignorance.
Let's not lump all physicians in here. My mother is an emergency room physician in a large city. This will outrage her, as she already sees far too many patients with illnesses which could have been prevented if the patients had a primary care physician. She'll be seeing far more of these frustratingly preventable medical crises and it won't be pretty. She's a top 1% earner, and hates Bush as much as the vast majority of her colleagues. Let's not trash all physicians here; there are quite a few who actually care very much about the wellbeing of their patients.
What they really want is for everybody to have these silly MSA plans. "It will make people make better decisions about buying health care when it's their own money at stake," they bleat. What they don't say is that the MSA is a bad deal for the sick and the old for whom health care is never a discretionary or marginal expense. It's life and death.
Social insurance exists so that risk is spread through society. I pay more into health insurance than I get out of it, and someday the situation will likely be reversed. MSAs unravel the whole notion of a safety net for the sick and the disabled.
What they really want is for everybody to have these silly MSA plans. "It will make people make better decisions about buying health care when it's their own money at stake," they bleat. What they don't say is that the MSA is a bad deal for the sick and the old for whom health care is never a discretionary or marginal expense. It's life and death.
Social insurance exists so that risk is spread through society. I pay more into health insurance than I get out of it, and someday the situation will likely be reversed. MSAs unravel the whole notion of a safety net for the sick and the disabled.
Our enemies never stop thinking of ways to harm our country -- and neither does Lame Duckie.
Our enemies never stop thinking of ways to harm our country -- and neither does Lame Duckie.
Gee, no trolls commenting this morning?
You'll love this one from last night:
Those entitlement programs are on the way out. If you remember, I posted a link to an article which delinates the fact that employer paid health care, medicare, and social security are going bye-bye.
Wave goodbye to your entitlement programs.
Rich GOP Guy | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 2:06 am | #
Gee, no trolls commenting this morning?
You'll love this one from last night:
Those entitlement programs are on the way out. If you remember, I posted a link to an article which delinates the fact that employer paid health care, medicare, and social security are going bye-bye.
Wave goodbye to your entitlement programs.
Rich GOP Guy | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 2:06 am | #
I tend to think they'll probably roll out some alternate to moderate this, but it's still scummy as hell.
"See? They don't want to eat all your children! Just the girls! That's not so bad, is it?"
I tend to think they'll probably roll out some alternate to moderate this, but it's still scummy as hell.
"See? They don't want to eat all your children! Just the girls! That's not so bad, is it?"
I'm one of those Kerry voters who had realistic hopes that his healthcare plan would make it possible for my employer to offer reasonably-priced insurance again. If that matters.
Face it: Our country is structured to permit enslavement. This is just getting back to our roots.
OK, I'll try to put a happy face on this. I'll try to imagine that this will be the straw that breaks the camel's back for sufficient millions of Americans, who'll realize they're being screwed, so that this translates into mid-term victories for progressive elements.
Yarite.
I have a suck-ass, barely-middle-income job (my upper-income position was eliminated last year) with few benefits. Partially funded healthcare was eliminated a few months ago--we're a small operation and we had a few high-risk employees who made our premiums "too high." So I've been carrying my own family on a cut-rate Blue Cross/Blue Shield plan. Right now it totals about 300 a month, but I've already received a notice that it'll increase another hundred per month at the start of the new year.
And I'm in my 40s. It will only get worse, much worse.
There ain't no happy face. A fellow rePuke cow orker is completely uninsured (diabetic, so he can't afford anything for himself), yet he still listens to AM hate radio and is convince that the Dems are sucking him dry.
I'm one of those Kerry voters who had realistic hopes that his healthcare plan would make it possible for my employer to offer reasonably-priced insurance again. If that matters.
Face it: Our country is structured to permit enslavement. This is just getting back to our roots.
OK, I'll try to put a happy face on this. I'll try to imagine that this will be the straw that breaks the camel's back for sufficient millions of Americans, who'll realize they're being screwed, so that this translates into mid-term victories for progressive elements.
Yarite.
I have a suck-ass, barely-middle-income job (my upper-income position was eliminated last year) with few benefits. Partially funded healthcare was eliminated a few months ago--we're a small operation and we had a few high-risk employees who made our premiums "too high." So I've been carrying my own family on a cut-rate Blue Cross/Blue Shield plan. Right now it totals about 300 a month, but I've already received a notice that it'll increase another hundred per month at the start of the new year.
And I'm in my 40s. It will only get worse, much worse.
There ain't no happy face. A fellow rePuke cow orker is completely uninsured (diabetic, so he can't afford anything for himself), yet he still listens to AM hate radio and is convince that the Dems are sucking him dry.
I'm seriously not sure if this isn't just a ploy. Look at the commotion, already. Any compromise that doesn't include health care and s&l deductions elimination will look like they actually compromised from whatever draconian plan they really have in mind, and make the public feel like we won.
Then let's attack and trash the clear goal of this plan: the elimation of taxes on passive income. We need to be the unexpected here, as we were during the presidential "election." Let's tap into our resources to coordinate steady and ongoing attacks on this administration.
I'm seriously not sure if this isn't just a ploy. Look at the commotion, already. Any compromise that doesn't include health care and s&l deductions elimination will look like they actually compromised from whatever draconian plan they really have in mind, and make the public feel like we won.
Then let's attack and trash the clear goal of this plan: the elimation of taxes on passive income. We need to be the unexpected here, as we were during the presidential "election." Let's tap into our resources to coordinate steady and ongoing attacks on this administration.
I tend to agree with the bait and switch folks. These two proposals- getting rid of the deductions for state/local taxes and healthcare- are so outlandish that these will LIKELY end up being bargaining chips.
I tend to agree with the bait and switch folks. These two proposals- getting rid of the deductions for state/local taxes and healthcare- are so outlandish that these will LIKELY end up being bargaining chips.
It's like that Toles cartoon. Health care would have been nice, but at least gays can't get married.
It's like that Toles cartoon. Health care would have been nice, but at least gays can't get married.
Actually, it was shitcanned by the insurance industry.
Actually, it was shitcanned by Cokie Roberts' brother, Tommy Boggs, who ran the most powerful Dem PR firm in D.C. (Ron Brown was one of his partners).
His company was paid a fortune by everybody to stock her panel with people whose interests would all conflict to such a degree, that no real plan would come out of it. He was paid to make sure it was dead in the water, and he did.
Actually, it was shitcanned by the insurance industry.
Actually, it was shitcanned by Cokie Roberts' brother, Tommy Boggs, who ran the most powerful Dem PR firm in D.C. (Ron Brown was one of his partners).
His company was paid a fortune by everybody to stock her panel with people whose interests would all conflict to such a degree, that no real plan would come out of it. He was paid to make sure it was dead in the water, and he did.
Thanks Tena, I'm going back to read all the comments now. The problem for me is that I always get here late, miss most of the discussion never seem to really get caught up. Or by the time I do folks have moved on to a new thread (Damn Atrios and his lightning surrogate posters! 
) Apologies for this; just ignore me if I'm adding drag . . .
Thanks Tena, I'm going back to read all the comments now. The problem for me is that I always get here late, miss most of the discussion never seem to really get caught up. Or by the time I do folks have moved on to a new thread (Damn Atrios and his lightning surrogate posters! ) Apologies for this; just ignore me if I'm adding drag . . .
I agree with everyone who is pointing at doctors. They are overall one of the most conservative groups in this country and on top of that, they are notoriously bad about finance and business. They don't get it - and that's fine, I'm not asking them to. But they voted for Bush because of medical malpractice and cut their own throats in the process.
I ain't going to cry over them, either.
I agree with everyone who is pointing at doctors. They are overall one of the most conservative groups in this country and on top of that, they are notoriously bad about finance and business. They don't get it - and that's fine, I'm not asking them to. But they voted for Bush because of medical malpractice and cut their own throats in the process.
I ain't going to cry over them, either.
I'm trying to think how the Democrats can use this to our advantage.
1) Fight to keep the state/local tax deduction, but stay quiet about the health insurance issue.
2) Millions of low/middle income workers lose their insurance.
3) Propose a Canadian-style single-payer system. The Republicans propose an (unworkable) alternative, and it dies.
4) Democrats run on a, "health insurance for everyone" platform and win big in the 2006 elections.
Opinions?
I'm trying to think how the Democrats can use this to our advantage.
1) Fight to keep the state/local tax deduction, but stay quiet about the health insurance issue.
2) Millions of low/middle income workers lose their insurance.
3) Propose a Canadian-style single-payer system. The Republicans propose an (unworkable) alternative, and it dies.
4) Democrats run on a, "health insurance for everyone" platform and win big in the 2006 elections.
Opinions?
Tena | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 9:49 am | #
Tena, why does the President hate small-business owners?
What will happen to the children?
Tena | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 9:49 am | #
Tena, why does the President hate small-business owners?
What will happen to the children?
If this thing passes, for the common wo/man to take advantage of this they need to do 4 things:
1) incorporate and service out as a private contractor instead of as a salaried worker
2) Do not pay yourself a wage, compensate yourself with stock.
3) Plow all of your profits back into the business
4) pay yourself very high, non-taxable dividends.
If this thing passes, for the common wo/man to take advantage of this they need to do 4 things:
1) incorporate and service out as a private contractor instead of as a salaried worker
2) Do not pay yourself a wage, compensate yourself with stock.
3) Plow all of your profits back into the business
4) pay yourself very high, non-taxable dividends.
MSAs are horrible idea. Yes, it'd be nice if individuals would somehow be cost conscious when making health care choices but the flip side of that is forgone care, which will not only burden the individual later it will undoubtedly burden society unless we just decide to let people rot to death on the streets if they can't "cut it". Yes, the health insurance/employer marriage isn't really perfect either and no sane industrialized country would form their health insurance policy on that model. Single payer, universal health care. Fuck the insurance industry.
MSAs are horrible idea. Yes, it'd be nice if individuals would somehow be cost conscious when making health care choices but the flip side of that is forgone care, which will not only burden the individual later it will undoubtedly burden society unless we just decide to let people rot to death on the streets if they can't "cut it". Yes, the health insurance/employer marriage isn't really perfect either and no sane industrialized country would form their health insurance policy on that model. Single payer, universal health care. Fuck the insurance industry.
Grover Norquist is a miserable son of a bitch who is behind anything tax related. If you're not familiar with him, endeavor to become so, as Mr. Norquist has plans to become intimate with your posterior repeatedly in the coming years.
Emailed my rep-Rep. Frelinghuysen, good backbencher, resolute yes-man, only dissents from leadership if his votes makes no difference.
Told him to not to go there, why does his party want to destroy the middle class, etc.
Yeah, like he cares.
This tax proposal was absolutely made for him: old monied family, lots of it. Plus, he gets his health insurance from his job. Safe sinecure seat in one of wealthiest counties in the US. A few areas house the working/lower middle classes and usually vote Dem. Never enough to dislodge him.
But, remove our state and local tax deductions? Mortgage interest deductions? Wow. Big, big, huge economic hit.
Grover Norquist is a miserable son of a bitch who is behind anything tax related. If you're not familiar with him, endeavor to become so, as Mr. Norquist has plans to become intimate with your posterior repeatedly in the coming years.
Emailed my rep-Rep. Frelinghuysen, good backbencher, resolute yes-man, only dissents from leadership if his votes makes no difference.
Told him to not to go there, why does his party want to destroy the middle class, etc.
Yeah, like he cares.
This tax proposal was absolutely made for him: old monied family, lots of it. Plus, he gets his health insurance from his job. Safe sinecure seat in one of wealthiest counties in the US. A few areas house the working/lower middle classes and usually vote Dem. Never enough to dislodge him.
But, remove our state and local tax deductions? Mortgage interest deductions? Wow. Big, big, huge economic hit.
Howard Dean, if you don't get the DNC chair, will you start up a Progressive Party? I'm on board.
MeLoseBrain? | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 9:33 am | #
(Raising hand) Me 'n all.
Howard Dean, if you don't get the DNC chair, will you start up a Progressive Party? I'm on board.
MeLoseBrain? | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 9:33 am | #
(Raising hand) Me 'n all.
Let's not trash all physicians here; there are quite a few who actually care very much about the wellbeing of their patients.
When physicians can take some real responsibility for their own profession, and put together some kind of organization that provides an authentic counterbalance against the reactionary, entirely greed-driven AMA, THEN I will stop "trashing" physicians as a group.
Suffice it to say, if a physician thinks that he or she can pocket the ill-gotten gains achieved by the AMA while bearing no responsibility for the evil that the AMA has foisted on the American people by undercutting any kind of progressive health care reform (and taking away an absolute key issue from Democrats), then he or she is sorely mistaken.
Physicians who just sit out on the sidelines, who in no way try to combat the influence of the AMA, will get zero sympathy from me.
Let's not trash all physicians here; there are quite a few who actually care very much about the wellbeing of their patients.
When physicians can take some real responsibility for their own profession, and put together some kind of organization that provides an authentic counterbalance against the reactionary, entirely greed-driven AMA, THEN I will stop "trashing" physicians as a group.
Suffice it to say, if a physician thinks that he or she can pocket the ill-gotten gains achieved by the AMA while bearing no responsibility for the evil that the AMA has foisted on the American people by undercutting any kind of progressive health care reform (and taking away an absolute key issue from Democrats), then he or she is sorely mistaken.
Physicians who just sit out on the sidelines, who in no way try to combat the influence of the AMA, will get zero sympathy from me.
cs - I really didn't mean to say that your comment was redundant - I was agreeing with you. That is the first thing that occurred to me - the double taxation. I'm glad I'm not the only one.
cs - I really didn't mean to say that your comment was redundant - I was agreeing with you. That is the first thing that occurred to me - the double taxation. I'm glad I'm not the only one.
dave said:
Fuck these morons. Fuck them. And that's exactly what they are. Morons. And that's exactly what they should be called, loudly and at every possible opportunity. Stupid fucking morons.
Nope, I disagree. In fact, I think it's pretty moronic to dismiss them all as morons.
I've known my sister all my life. She goes to church but she's not a wingnut and I can vouch that she's not in the least bit stupid. Far from it.
Neither are my 'Puke co-workers and neighbors.
If they were simply stupid, Karl Rove wouldn't have a job.
I'm not sure how best to describe what they are -duped, taken, easily greased, naive, averse to real independence, entrenched, myopic, easily manipulated, maybe those adjectives come close---but for us to dismiss them all as knuckle- dragging jesus freaks is a deadly error that can only cost us.
know thy enemy, dave.
dave said:
Fuck these morons. Fuck them. And that's exactly what they are. Morons. And that's exactly what they should be called, loudly and at every possible opportunity. Stupid fucking morons.
Nope, I disagree. In fact, I think it's pretty moronic to dismiss them all as morons.
I've known my sister all my life. She goes to church but she's not a wingnut and I can vouch that she's not in the least bit stupid. Far from it.
Neither are my 'Puke co-workers and neighbors.
If they were simply stupid, Karl Rove wouldn't have a job.
I'm not sure how best to describe what they are -duped, taken, easily greased, naive, averse to real independence, entrenched, myopic, easily manipulated, maybe those adjectives come close---but for us to dismiss them all as knuckle- dragging jesus freaks is a deadly error that can only cost us.
know thy enemy, dave.
My advice to democrats --
let Bush administration pass this WHOLE thing.. this will be a disaster for Bush administration and republican party.
if this passes in 2005 then we will have single payer system of health insurance within 5 years.
time for democrats to rollover and play dead
My advice to democrats --
let Bush administration pass this WHOLE thing.. this will be a disaster for Bush administration and republican party.
if this passes in 2005 then we will have single payer system of health insurance within 5 years.
time for democrats to rollover and play dead
I also cast a vote in favor of some physicians. One of my best friends is very good with her money, fairly wise about the economy, got into OB/GYN specifically because she wanted to to help cut down on back-alley providers in case Roe v. Wade was ever overturned, and voted for Kerry because of Dubya's potential to screw up the SCOTUS.
Not all of them are checking their wallets.
I also cast a vote in favor of some physicians. One of my best friends is very good with her money, fairly wise about the economy, got into OB/GYN specifically because she wanted to to help cut down on back-alley providers in case Roe v. Wade was ever overturned, and voted for Kerry because of Dubya's potential to screw up the SCOTUS.
Not all of them are checking their wallets.
sorry, bad italics!!!
should have read:
dave said:
Fuck these morons. Fuck them. And that's exactly what they are. Morons. And that's exactly what they should be called, loudly and at every possible opportunity. Stupid fucking morons.
Nope, I disagree. In fact, I think it's pretty moronic to dismiss them all as morons.
I've known my sister all my life. She goes to church but she's not a wingnut and I can vouch that she's not in the least bit stupid. Far from it.
Neither are my 'Puke co-workers and neighbors.
If they were simply stupid, Karl Rove wouldn't have a job.
I'm not sure how best to describe what they are -duped, taken, easily greased, naive, averse to real independence, entrenched, myopic, easily manipulated, maybe those adjectives come close---but for us to dismiss them all as knuckle- dragging jesus freaks is a deadly error that can only cost us.
know thy enemy, dave
sorry, bad italics!!!
should have read:
dave said:
Fuck these morons. Fuck them. And that's exactly what they are. Morons. And that's exactly what they should be called, loudly and at every possible opportunity. Stupid fucking morons.
Nope, I disagree. In fact, I think it's pretty moronic to dismiss them all as morons.
I've known my sister all my life. She goes to church but she's not a wingnut and I can vouch that she's not in the least bit stupid. Far from it.
Neither are my 'Puke co-workers and neighbors.
If they were simply stupid, Karl Rove wouldn't have a job.
I'm not sure how best to describe what they are -duped, taken, easily greased, naive, averse to real independence, entrenched, myopic, easily manipulated, maybe those adjectives come close---but for us to dismiss them all as knuckle- dragging jesus freaks is a deadly error that can only cost us.
know thy enemy, dave
Norquist said his ideal American is a "self employed, home schooled gun owner."
His worst nightmare should be a college-educated, unemployed gun owner. 
Norquist said his ideal American is a "self employed, home schooled gun owner."
His worst nightmare should be a college-educated, unemployed gun owner.
I'm trying to think how the Democrats can use this to our advantage.
As was brilliantly pointed out by several commenters, the outlandish portions of the proposal are probably a bait-and-switch to make the elimination of the tax burden on passive income seem moderate. I think the best thing we can do to help the Democratic party is to (1) write to third parties and ask them to emphasize Bush's attempted conversion to feudalism so that the DNC has to compete to have the loudest voice of outrage in some markets (particularly smaller, rural markets); (2) write to the DNC and demand that angry, provocative newspaper advertisements discussing the elimination of taxes for the rich be placed in small newspapers.
I'm trying to think how the Democrats can use this to our advantage.
As was brilliantly pointed out by several commenters, the outlandish portions of the proposal are probably a bait-and-switch to make the elimination of the tax burden on passive income seem moderate. I think the best thing we can do to help the Democratic party is to (1) write to third parties and ask them to emphasize Bush's attempted conversion to feudalism so that the DNC has to compete to have the loudest voice of outrage in some markets (particularly smaller, rural markets); (2) write to the DNC and demand that angry, provocative newspaper advertisements discussing the elimination of taxes for the rich be placed in small newspapers.
i'm going to have to agree with that group of people that says this is a bait-and-switch maneuver. it's happened before. they float something this enormous, everybody gets up in arms, and then they come back with some other offer that is marginally more palatable but still way off to the right. . .it's a ballsy strategy, ruthlessly efficient, and it has worked with their tax policy since 2001. you have to admire them for their confidence and their ability to see it through. if clinton had been that strong we'd all have some sort of health coverage, maybe not total, and i could get this bronchitis/sinusitis thing i've been carrying around for the last week taken care of.
i'm going to have to agree with that group of people that says this is a bait-and-switch maneuver. it's happened before. they float something this enormous, everybody gets up in arms, and then they come back with some other offer that is marginally more palatable but still way off to the right. . .it's a ballsy strategy, ruthlessly efficient, and it has worked with their tax policy since 2001. you have to admire them for their confidence and their ability to see it through. if clinton had been that strong we'd all have some sort of health coverage, maybe not total, and i could get this bronchitis/sinusitis thing i've been carrying around for the last week taken care of.
The mass of men serve the state thus, not as men but as machines, with there bodies... They have the same sort of worth as horses and dogs... Others - as most legislators, politicians, lawyers, ministers and office holders - serve the state chiefly with there heads; and, as they rarely make any moral distinctions, they are as likely to serve the devil, without intending it, as God...
How does it become a man to behave toward this American government today? I answer, that he cannot without disgrace be associated with it. I can not for one instant recognize that political organization as my government which is the slaves government also. Thoreau
"Tax deductable, charity organizations... Ohh no (sneeringly) B.Dylan
The mass of men serve the state thus, not as men but as machines, with there bodies... They have the same sort of worth as horses and dogs... Others - as most legislators, politicians, lawyers, ministers and office holders - serve the state chiefly with there heads; and, as they rarely make any moral distinctions, they are as likely to serve the devil, without intending it, as God...
How does it become a man to behave toward this American government today? I answer, that he cannot without disgrace be associated with it. I can not for one instant recognize that political organization as my government which is the slaves government also. Thoreau
"Tax deductable, charity organizations... Ohh no (sneeringly) B.Dylan
yo, filkertom!
it's been raining buckets here so today was the first day I had my "Mandate, My Ass!" sticker on my car.
Quite an exciting commute I had. I think you've got a hit on your hands. It obviously touched some nerves.
i got the classic tailgate, then whip in front and slow down response from one pick up. Then later, another pulled up beside me and laid on his horn. When I ignored him, he pulled up in front of me, opened the window at the back of his cab and vehemently shot me the finger.
Success!
yo, filkertom!
it's been raining buckets here so today was the first day I had my "Mandate, My Ass!" sticker on my car.
Quite an exciting commute I had. I think you've got a hit on your hands. It obviously touched some nerves.
i got the classic tailgate, then whip in front and slow down response from one pick up. Then later, another pulled up beside me and laid on his horn. When I ignored him, he pulled up in front of me, opened the window at the back of his cab and vehemently shot me the finger.
Success!
I suspect the trolls are all Hillary watching today. They can't take their eyes off of her. Go ahead, Hillary. Say something, anything. It'll drive them into a frenzy.
I suspect the trolls are all Hillary watching today. They can't take their eyes off of her. Go ahead, Hillary. Say something, anything. It'll drive them into a frenzy.
pregnntpaws, Brief history of Insurance industry's media campaign against the Clinton plan, there's better info out there, but this is a decent enough quick history.
I also recall that one of the biggest problems Hillary had was opposition from the Republicans, screaming that she had no right to even head a committee.
pregnntpaws, Brief history of Insurance industry's media campaign against the Clinton plan, there's better info out there, but this is a decent enough quick history.
I also recall that one of the biggest problems Hillary had was opposition from the Republicans, screaming that she had no right to even head a committee.
In the Corporate State, corporate media are State Media...
duped, taken, easily greased, naive, averse to real independence, entrenched, myopic, easily manipulated
Well, thank goodness they aren't morons.
???
In the Corporate State, corporate media are State Media...
duped, taken, easily greased, naive, averse to real independence, entrenched, myopic, easily manipulated
Well, thank goodness they aren't morons.
???
So George W. Bush is planning to raise taxes.
Would that make him a... flip-flopper?
So George W. Bush is planning to raise taxes.
Would that make him a... flip-flopper?
Norquist said his ideal American is a "self employed, home schooled gun owner."
His worst nightmare should be a college-educated, unemployed gun owner.
Indiana Joe | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 10:06 am
Although he doesn't realize it yet, his worst nightmare is a robbery, a debilitating injury or a house fire after his tax slashing has defunded police and fire protection.
Or botulism from food that nobody could afford to inspect.
Or cancer from breathing the fuckin' air.
Or any of a million other things the government does that industry won't, because it cuts into profits and might make them look less than perfect.
Norquist said his ideal American is a "self employed, home schooled gun owner."
His worst nightmare should be a college-educated, unemployed gun owner.
Indiana Joe | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 10:06 am
Although he doesn't realize it yet, his worst nightmare is a robbery, a debilitating injury or a house fire after his tax slashing has defunded police and fire protection.
Or botulism from food that nobody could afford to inspect.
Or cancer from breathing the fuckin' air.
Or any of a million other things the government does that industry won't, because it cuts into profits and might make them look less than perfect.
Physicians who just sit out on the sidelines, who in no way try to combat the influence of the AMA, will get zero sympathy from me.
frankly0
"Sitting on the sidelines" for her is spending twelve hour shifts providing care to a population of people who need it. It's understanding that she probably makes about half of what she could make if she decided to jump ship and work at a richer hospital, as constant headhunters urge her to do. Perhaps you can tell her patients that she is no longer available to them because she has ideological differences with the AMA and decided to "get off of the sidelines" to fight an organization rather than serve relatively poor patients.
Physicians who just sit out on the sidelines, who in no way try to combat the influence of the AMA, will get zero sympathy from me.
frankly0
"Sitting on the sidelines" for her is spending twelve hour shifts providing care to a population of people who need it. It's understanding that she probably makes about half of what she could make if she decided to jump ship and work at a richer hospital, as constant headhunters urge her to do. Perhaps you can tell her patients that she is no longer available to them because she has ideological differences with the AMA and decided to "get off of the sidelines" to fight an organization rather than serve relatively poor patients.
I'm trying to think how the Democrats can use this to our advantage.
As was brilliantly pointed out by several commenters, the outlandish portions of the proposal are probably a bait-and-switch to make the elimination of the tax burden on passive income seem moderate. I think the best thing we can do to help the Democratic party is to (1) write to third parties and ask them to emphasize Bush's attempted conversion to feudalism so that the DNC has to compete to have the loudest voice of outrage in some markets (particularly smaller, rural markets); (2) write to the DNC and demand that angry, provocative newspaper advertisements discussing the elimination of taxes for the rich be placed in small newspapers.
I'm trying to think how the Democrats can use this to our advantage.
As was brilliantly pointed out by several commenters, the outlandish portions of the proposal are probably a bait-and-switch to make the elimination of the tax burden on passive income seem moderate. I think the best thing we can do to help the Democratic party is to (1) write to third parties and ask them to emphasize Bush's attempted conversion to feudalism so that the DNC has to compete to have the loudest voice of outrage in some markets (particularly smaller, rural markets); (2) write to the DNC and demand that angry, provocative newspaper advertisements discussing the elimination of taxes for the rich be placed in small newspapers.
"To pay for them, the administration is considering eliminating the deduction of state and local taxes on federal income tax returns"
STRAIGHT out of the Norquist playbook.
Recall that Grover wants to RAISE taxes at first to make it so painful to pay for big government that everyone will have no choice but to vote for "tax-cutting Republicans".
Recall also that despite constand lip service, you really can't run a war with constant tax cuts. Eventually you do have to raise taxes.
Most Deep Red states have no income taxes. This will hit Blues extra hard.
Apparently only Howard Dean had the brains to point out that if your federal taxes go down a little, but your state taxes go up a lot, you do not have a tax cut.
Also, only Bill Ford of Ford Motor understands that Europe is killing us in worker productivity and corporate profits because companies there have zero health care expenses. Taxes pay for everything.
"To pay for them, the administration is considering eliminating the deduction of state and local taxes on federal income tax returns"
STRAIGHT out of the Norquist playbook.
Recall that Grover wants to RAISE taxes at first to make it so painful to pay for big government that everyone will have no choice but to vote for "tax-cutting Republicans".
Recall also that despite constand lip service, you really can't run a war with constant tax cuts. Eventually you do have to raise taxes.
Most Deep Red states have no income taxes. This will hit Blues extra hard.
Apparently only Howard Dean had the brains to point out that if your federal taxes go down a little, but your state taxes go up a lot, you do not have a tax cut.
Also, only Bill Ford of Ford Motor understands that Europe is killing us in worker productivity and corporate profits because companies there have zero health care expenses. Taxes pay for everything.
bait-and-switch to make the elimination of the tax burden on passive income seem moderate.- GN
Great summary of Republican tactics.
bait-and-switch to make the elimination of the tax burden on passive income seem moderate.- GN
Great summary of Republican tactics.
Wah! Success, maybe, jeebs, but don't get killed over it. Thanks, though, buddy.
(What's he talking about? Mandate, My Ass -- a fine line of swag just in time for the holidays!)
[/blatant whoring]
Wah! Success, maybe, jeebs, but don't get killed over it. Thanks, though, buddy.
(What's he talking about? Mandate, My Ass -- a fine line of swag just in time for the holidays!)
[/blatant whoring]
Norquist's just the current avatar for the discursive practices of disenfranchisement and disempowerment which are ht ehallmarks of ALL totalitarian institutions.
Norquist's just the current avatar for the discursive practices of disenfranchisement and disempowerment which are ht ehallmarks of ALL totalitarian institutions.
The GOP:
destroying America one vote at a time
The GOP:
destroying America one vote at a time
You know, I don't know why the preznit hates small business owners, but the few small business owners I've talked to think Bush is the worst thing that ever happened to them.
I really doubt that many voted for Bush. But people vote against their interests all the time on a national level.
I have come to the conclusion - based on nothing but my own idea - that people vote their consciences for preznit. They don't vote their interests there - they save that for local elections. Just my theory for the day.
You know, I don't know why the preznit hates small business owners, but the few small business owners I've talked to think Bush is the worst thing that ever happened to them.
I really doubt that many voted for Bush. But people vote against their interests all the time on a national level.
I have come to the conclusion - based on nothing but my own idea - that people vote their consciences for preznit. They don't vote their interests there - they save that for local elections. Just my theory for the day.
Let me preface my comment with "not all farmers and ranchers voted red." So don't say f*ck em, they'll get what the deserve for voting the Bush bastard in.
A lot of farmers and ranchers, I beleive, operate as small businesses. How will this effect them? This could be an excellent chance to "reconnect" with the rural voters. No? Yes?
Let me preface my comment with "not all farmers and ranchers voted red." So don't say f*ck em, they'll get what the deserve for voting the Bush bastard in.
A lot of farmers and ranchers, I beleive, operate as small businesses. How will this effect them? This could be an excellent chance to "reconnect" with the rural voters. No? Yes?
It is a return to the early 20th century when this society was seperated by wealth. When those who could afford health care received it, and those who could not were dependent upon charities or allowed to die.
You don't think this is happening now?
Well, I'm not surprised they didn't wait to start their assault on the american people.
It's time to secede. Period.
It is a return to the early 20th century when this society was seperated by wealth. When those who could afford health care received it, and those who could not were dependent upon charities or allowed to die.
You don't think this is happening now?
Well, I'm not surprised they didn't wait to start their assault on the american people.
It's time to secede. Period.
The GOP:
destroying America one vote at a time
I love it; parlaying Bush's extremism into an attack on the GOP.
A few weeks ago, Atrios asked for listings of small and midsized local newspapers and winger columnists. Was that list ever compiled, and if so, can we make use of it with a barrage of emails about the elimination of taxes for the rich?
The GOP:
destroying America one vote at a time
I love it; parlaying Bush's extremism into an attack on the GOP.
A few weeks ago, Atrios asked for listings of small and midsized local newspapers and winger columnists. Was that list ever compiled, and if so, can we make use of it with a barrage of emails about the elimination of taxes for the rich?
His worst nightmare should be a college-educated, unemployed gun owner.
Indiana Joe
If the militia movement had been a left-wing phenomenon the Republicans would have been dying for gun control. I propose that leftists, blacks, gay people.... all form highly visible militias to prepare for the civil war that is going to break out. If we do we should make sure that only fit, sane people are involved. Seeing the fascist type militia members on TV made me a lot less afraid of them. A forced hike of a thousand feet would have done most of them in.
I'll have to pass. With my eyesight I'd be a danger to our side.
His worst nightmare should be a college-educated, unemployed gun owner.
Indiana Joe
If the militia movement had been a left-wing phenomenon the Republicans would have been dying for gun control. I propose that leftists, blacks, gay people.... all form highly visible militias to prepare for the civil war that is going to break out. If we do we should make sure that only fit, sane people are involved. Seeing the fascist type militia members on TV made me a lot less afraid of them. A forced hike of a thousand feet would have done most of them in.
I'll have to pass. With my eyesight I'd be a danger to our side.
Hey filkertom, I got my shirt in the mail the other day. Thanks for expanding the MMA collection to women's wear...
I plan on wearing it while jogging.
Hey filkertom, I got my shirt in the mail the other day. Thanks for expanding the MMA collection to women's wear...
I plan on wearing it while jogging.
"The changes are meant to be revenue-neutral."
The changes indicated aren't just revenue-neutral, they're morality neutral. Or worse.
Steve
"The changes are meant to be revenue-neutral."
The changes indicated aren't just revenue-neutral, they're morality neutral. Or worse.
Steve
I know not all doctors are greedy. I know that. I shouldn't make broad generalizations. But the doctors whom I know personally who have loads of money will do anything at all that they think will take the specter of medical malpractice out of their line of sight.
I know not all doctors are greedy. I know that. I shouldn't make broad generalizations. But the doctors whom I know personally who have loads of money will do anything at all that they think will take the specter of medical malpractice out of their line of sight.
i wish i could believe it was only a bait and switch, but the dems are so timid i expect them to go right along with this no questions asked. prove me wrong, reid.
norquist is the one to look to when we wonder what will come down the pipeline next. the complete elimination of the new deal and ever decent social policy you can imagine. punitive taxation of all blue states, and the no taxation for the very rich.
folks, get ready to retire the outrange meters. this is only the beginning, and if you think the dems are going to stand up to them, think again.
i wish i could believe it was only a bait and switch, but the dems are so timid i expect them to go right along with this no questions asked. prove me wrong, reid.
norquist is the one to look to when we wonder what will come down the pipeline next. the complete elimination of the new deal and ever decent social policy you can imagine. punitive taxation of all blue states, and the no taxation for the very rich.
folks, get ready to retire the outrange meters. this is only the beginning, and if you think the dems are going to stand up to them, think again.
Look at how just these two issues have "pushed a lot of buttons." Now, imagine these issues being presented outside this chamber. Small businesses are most threatened by these two proposals, they will scream bloody murder. The debate then switches, unnoticed, from the effects of giving more tax relief to unearned income to the effects of not having deductions for state/local taxes and insurance benefits. This is the classic bait and switch, and likely one that will work. Bringing up the subject of less taxation of unearned income will become nearly impossible in the din that these two proposals will generate.
Look at how just these two issues have "pushed a lot of buttons." Now, imagine these issues being presented outside this chamber. Small businesses are most threatened by these two proposals, they will scream bloody murder. The debate then switches, unnoticed, from the effects of giving more tax relief to unearned income to the effects of not having deductions for state/local taxes and insurance benefits. This is the classic bait and switch, and likely one that will work. Bringing up the subject of less taxation of unearned income will become nearly impossible in the din that these two proposals will generate.
I don't understand how you guys let this stuff stand. Our national health coverage has flaws but we all get care. Lives aren't ruined when a family member takes suddenly ill, a new life doesn't come with a huge bill for the parents, we all get our shots and we don't pay outrageous premiums to insurance companies - it's in our taxes - one way or another you pay of course but we are all covered.
But is full coverage for the American people even a goal? Bush's team never disputed Kerry's assertion about the millions who lost health care during their watch - maybe it was because they didn't care.
In the US, who's going to stand up for the little guy if the little guy doesn't stand up for himself?
The blogosphere?
I mean your heart's in the right place but...
I don't understand how you guys let this stuff stand. Our national health coverage has flaws but we all get care. Lives aren't ruined when a family member takes suddenly ill, a new life doesn't come with a huge bill for the parents, we all get our shots and we don't pay outrageous premiums to insurance companies - it's in our taxes - one way or another you pay of course but we are all covered.
But is full coverage for the American people even a goal? Bush's team never disputed Kerry's assertion about the millions who lost health care during their watch - maybe it was because they didn't care.
In the US, who's going to stand up for the little guy if the little guy doesn't stand up for himself?
The blogosphere?
I mean your heart's in the right place but...
Hey filkertom, I got my shirt in the mail the other day. Thanks for expanding the MMA collection to women's wear...
I plan on wearing it while jogging.
TJ | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 10:21 am
Dear God, some video of that would increase sales tenfold... or at least make all of us w00t fans happy.... :-P
"promote growth by cutting taxes on investment."
I LOVE this! The assumption is that, when you buy a stock, you are investing in growth. What a laugh! The only time the money used to buy a stock actually goes to the company, and can therefore be used for growth, is when there is an Initial Public Offering. After that you're buying a piece of the company, but the money you spend buying a stock on the secondary market does nothing, absolutely NOTHING for the growth of the company. The money goes to the previous owner of the stock,pure and simple (with a little on the side to the broker).
Steve
Hey filkertom, I got my shirt in the mail the other day. Thanks for expanding the MMA collection to women's wear...
I plan on wearing it while jogging.
TJ | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 10:21 am
Dear God, some video of that would increase sales tenfold... or at least make all of us w00t fans happy.... :-P
"promote growth by cutting taxes on investment."
I LOVE this! The assumption is that, when you buy a stock, you are investing in growth. What a laugh! The only time the money used to buy a stock actually goes to the company, and can therefore be used for growth, is when there is an Initial Public Offering. After that you're buying a piece of the company, but the money you spend buying a stock on the secondary market does nothing, absolutely NOTHING for the growth of the company. The money goes to the previous owner of the stock,pure and simple (with a little on the side to the broker).
Steve
pregnntpaws, Brief history of Insurance industry's media campaign against the Clinton plan, there's better info out there, but this is a decent enough quick history.
No imagination,
I know all about that insurance industry's campaign. "Harry & Louise," and all that.
The fact is that it would have failed, regardless.
I can't source it online. I just remember it, going back to Kinsley/Buchanan Crossfire days. Back when I used to read the Washington Monthly, 10 years ago. This was back in the days when the biggest debates in D.C. were about the lobbyists, not the neo-cons.
Do you remember Hill & Knowlton? They were the big Repug PR firm, under Bush 41. They're the ones, for example, who set up that fake testimony to Congress about the baby incubator story before Gulf War 1.
Bogg's firm, Patton, Boggs, were just as ruthless. When Clinton came to power, they, essentially came to power.
Okay, I found one source, so far, the Washington Monthly
from 4/1/1995. It is a subscription sight, unfortunately.
The article is titled: Tommy Boggs and the death of health care reform.
Boggs has done many nasty things in his career. Just as many as the other side. It's how they do business in D.C.
Health care reform was dead before the first commercials aired. It was dead when those who were empaneled got on board. Don't forget, Bill & Hillary were new to D.C., and were treated as despised outsiders at the time by everyone, including the media.
pregnntpaws, Brief history of Insurance industry's media campaign against the Clinton plan, there's better info out there, but this is a decent enough quick history.
No imagination,
I know all about that insurance industry's campaign. "Harry & Louise," and all that.
The fact is that it would have failed, regardless.
I can't source it online. I just remember it, going back to Kinsley/Buchanan Crossfire days. Back when I used to read the Washington Monthly, 10 years ago. This was back in the days when the biggest debates in D.C. were about the lobbyists, not the neo-cons.
Do you remember Hill & Knowlton? They were the big Repug PR firm, under Bush 41. They're the ones, for example, who set up that fake testimony to Congress about the baby incubator story before Gulf War 1.
Bogg's firm, Patton, Boggs, were just as ruthless. When Clinton came to power, they, essentially came to power.
Okay, I found one source, so far, the Washington Monthly
from 4/1/1995. It is a subscription sight, unfortunately.
The article is titled: Tommy Boggs and the death of health care reform.
Boggs has done many nasty things in his career. Just as many as the other side. It's how they do business in D.C.
Health care reform was dead before the first commercials aired. It was dead when those who were empaneled got on board. Don't forget, Bill & Hillary were new to D.C., and were treated as despised outsiders at the time by everyone, including the media.
caunuckistani, the Republican media machine has convinced a majority of Americans that their health benefits/care will deteriorate, our medical system and expertise will collapse, we will be left with no choice, if big bad government is allowed to control it. Never mind those that don't even have health coverage. If the government runs it, it has to be bad. It's a stupid argument, but somehow it works.
caunuckistani, the Republican media machine has convinced a majority of Americans that their health benefits/care will deteriorate, our medical system and expertise will collapse, we will be left with no choice, if big bad government is allowed to control it. Never mind those that don't even have health coverage. If the government runs it, it has to be bad. It's a stupid argument, but somehow it works.
I'll have to pass. With my eyesight I'd be a danger to our side.
I feel your pain, I'm in the same boat. Doesn't mean I can't try.
I'll have to pass. With my eyesight I'd be a danger to our side.
I feel your pain, I'm in the same boat. Doesn't mean I can't try.
This is the classic bait and switch, and likely one that will work. Bringing up the subject of less taxation of unearned income will become nearly impossible in the din that these two proposals will generate.
no imagination
I just called the "Shelby Daily Globe," a small-town newspaper with a circulation of about 4,000 in Ohio. Full page ads are a little more than $1,000. Let's lean on the DNC establish a budget of perhaps $500,000 to start placing ads in newspapers like this to make noise about the elimination of taxes for the wealthy. They'll also need to have a small legal staff to deal with the inevitable hesitation of such papers to place anti-Bush material. But I'd really like to see the DNC spend maybe a million, tops, to start getting the message spread to Bush's constituency about the elimination of taxes on passive income. The flurry and contraversy of such a maneuver would surely land the whole matter in all news outlets, thus parlaying a small investment into a large gain. Any thoughts?
This is the classic bait and switch, and likely one that will work. Bringing up the subject of less taxation of unearned income will become nearly impossible in the din that these two proposals will generate.
no imagination
I just called the "Shelby Daily Globe," a small-town newspaper with a circulation of about 4,000 in Ohio. Full page ads are a little more than $1,000. Let's lean on the DNC establish a budget of perhaps $500,000 to start placing ads in newspapers like this to make noise about the elimination of taxes for the wealthy. They'll also need to have a small legal staff to deal with the inevitable hesitation of such papers to place anti-Bush material. But I'd really like to see the DNC spend maybe a million, tops, to start getting the message spread to Bush's constituency about the elimination of taxes on passive income. The flurry and contraversy of such a maneuver would surely land the whole matter in all news outlets, thus parlaying a small investment into a large gain. Any thoughts?
'But when the issue of "tort reform" comes up, as being THE basic issue in health care reform, do they say "boo" in protest? OF COURSE NOT'
Right and since this torte reform stuff that supposedly makes health care more expensive has been exposed as another hoax, lie, and scam, I still see no evidence that the doctors have let up on their efforts to deceive the people. They flat don't want to be responsible for whatever shoddy work they do.
Just because we all have a relative or friend that is physician who may or may not be a decent person, who works 47 hours a day, doesn't mean that she votes for the people who want a national health care plan--either! As a breed, they seem to be ethically challenged.
We are going the way of Mexico, South and Central America, and other third world friends and not even the Dems can really digest the fact that it was a plan and it is intentional and it is probably too late to stop it.
'But when the issue of "tort reform" comes up, as being THE basic issue in health care reform, do they say "boo" in protest? OF COURSE NOT'
Right and since this torte reform stuff that supposedly makes health care more expensive has been exposed as another hoax, lie, and scam, I still see no evidence that the doctors have let up on their efforts to deceive the people. They flat don't want to be responsible for whatever shoddy work they do.
Just because we all have a relative or friend that is physician who may or may not be a decent person, who works 47 hours a day, doesn't mean that she votes for the people who want a national health care plan--either! As a breed, they seem to be ethically challenged.
We are going the way of Mexico, South and Central America, and other third world friends and not even the Dems can really digest the fact that it was a plan and it is intentional and it is probably too late to stop it.
Full page ads are a little more than $1,000.
Correction; they're a little more than $10,000. Big difference, but the DNC budget can handle maybe 50 such ads.
Full page ads are a little more than $1,000.
Correction; they're a little more than $10,000. Big difference, but the DNC budget can handle maybe 50 such ads.
Tena -- I didn't think you implied that at all. I was just apologizing for coming late to the meeting -- per usual.
Does anyone still use dial up and have a slow computer? If so, what techniques do you use to catch up and keep up with the conversation at the same time? I'm really inept at this . . .
Tena -- I didn't think you implied that at all. I was just apologizing for coming late to the meeting -- per usual.
Does anyone still use dial up and have a slow computer? If so, what techniques do you use to catch up and keep up with the conversation at the same time? I'm really inept at this . . .
GN - I like the idea of ads.
With a media that no longer operates as a check or balance on government, it is hard as hell to get information to people and we are going to be the only ones, pretty much, who have the information people need. We have to get it to them.
Ads in papers is a good place to start. I would be happy to contribute to that effort.
GN - I like the idea of ads.
With a media that no longer operates as a check or balance on government, it is hard as hell to get information to people and we are going to be the only ones, pretty much, who have the information people need. We have to get it to them.
Ads in papers is a good place to start. I would be happy to contribute to that effort.
I don't see how this can please the Norquists of the world, since the net effect is not to lower taxes but to shift the tax burden.
Shifting the tax burden is Norquist's entire point; he cares about lowering taxes only in as much as they are lowered for the wealthy. Remember when Howard Dean proposed reducing payroll taxes and Norquist jumped out and said that would be irresponsible. Why? Because the rich pay little proportionately in payroll taxes, so they're not a concern of good old Grover.
I agree with posters that ending the insurance deduction or state and local tax deductions are meant to be negotiating points. However, both of them can't be. If they eliminate taxes on investment income, they'll have to come up with the money somewhere. My guess is that they'll cave on insurance, but not on state tax deductions.
I don't see how this can please the Norquists of the world, since the net effect is not to lower taxes but to shift the tax burden.
Shifting the tax burden is Norquist's entire point; he cares about lowering taxes only in as much as they are lowered for the wealthy. Remember when Howard Dean proposed reducing payroll taxes and Norquist jumped out and said that would be irresponsible. Why? Because the rich pay little proportionately in payroll taxes, so they're not a concern of good old Grover.
I agree with posters that ending the insurance deduction or state and local tax deductions are meant to be negotiating points. However, both of them can't be. If they eliminate taxes on investment income, they'll have to come up with the money somewhere. My guess is that they'll cave on insurance, but not on state tax deductions.
Just because we all have a relative or friend that is physician who may or may not be a decent person, who works 47 hours a day, doesn't mean that she votes for the people who want a national health care plan--either!
Again, that is an overstatement. You'd be surprised at the number of particularly inner-city doctors who want nothing more than for their patients to have access to primary care physicians. The frustration felt about preventable health crises is real. Were all doctors motivated by money, inner city medical institutions would not be able to attract experienced, senior health care providers who are highly marketable to better-paying institutions. Be more specific in your rant, as I'm sure your argument is applicable to some. It is simply not applicable to all.
Just because we all have a relative or friend that is physician who may or may not be a decent person, who works 47 hours a day, doesn't mean that she votes for the people who want a national health care plan--either!
Again, that is an overstatement. You'd be surprised at the number of particularly inner-city doctors who want nothing more than for their patients to have access to primary care physicians. The frustration felt about preventable health crises is real. Were all doctors motivated by money, inner city medical institutions would not be able to attract experienced, senior health care providers who are highly marketable to better-paying institutions. Be more specific in your rant, as I'm sure your argument is applicable to some. It is simply not applicable to all.
The basic programme is to get people to believe that government can do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for them. The effect of eliminating the state income tax deduction will be to put pressure on the states to reduce public services, since taxes will be going up for the same amount of service currently being rendered.
This is the Alabama solution. When the public was asked whether it wanted more service for a little more tax, they decisively voted down the proposal. There is a tipping point in public opinion, and we are approaching it. And there will be plenty of right-wing economists around to tell you why this is all to the good, that paying your own way and making choices about things you know nothing about is efficient.
The basic programme is to get people to believe that government can do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for them. The effect of eliminating the state income tax deduction will be to put pressure on the states to reduce public services, since taxes will be going up for the same amount of service currently being rendered.
This is the Alabama solution. When the public was asked whether it wanted more service for a little more tax, they decisively voted down the proposal. There is a tipping point in public opinion, and we are approaching it. And there will be plenty of right-wing economists around to tell you why this is all to the good, that paying your own way and making choices about things you know nothing about is efficient.
Ads in papers is a good place to start. I would be happy to contribute to that effort.
Tena
Specifically, relatively low-cost ads in small and mid-sized Bushist papers sure to generate noise and controversy to parlay the story to larger outlets as well. I think a good start would be writing to the DNC with this suggestion and asking them to spend a small portion of the money you've already given them to such an effort. Perhaps gently threaten that if the DNC does not choose to effectively address the slaughter of working class America, that perhaps directing donations to a third party would produce better results.
Ads in papers is a good place to start. I would be happy to contribute to that effort.
Tena
Specifically, relatively low-cost ads in small and mid-sized Bushist papers sure to generate noise and controversy to parlay the story to larger outlets as well. I think a good start would be writing to the DNC with this suggestion and asking them to spend a small portion of the money you've already given them to such an effort. Perhaps gently threaten that if the DNC does not choose to effectively address the slaughter of working class America, that perhaps directing donations to a third party would produce better results.
I don't remember Bush running on the promise to eliminate health insurance for working Americans. This is nothing but class warfare. He will be stealing billions from working Americans so that he and Cheney can enjoy tax free dividends and capital gains from their Halliburton and Carlyle Group investments. Moral Values, my ass.
I don't remember Bush running on the promise to eliminate health insurance for working Americans. This is nothing but class warfare. He will be stealing billions from working Americans so that he and Cheney can enjoy tax free dividends and capital gains from their Halliburton and Carlyle Group investments. Moral Values, my ass.
Yes, deducting the state & local taxes from your federal return will hurt. A lot. And so will having to pay your own health insurance. Or not being able to buy your own health insurance and then losing whatever you do own when you face a hefty hospital bill -- not even for a catastrophic illness, necessarily.
So who does this help? Rich people, who can stop paying taxes on their dividends and capital gains.
Are you surprised?
Yes, deducting the state & local taxes from your federal return will hurt. A lot. And so will having to pay your own health insurance. Or not being able to buy your own health insurance and then losing whatever you do own when you face a hefty hospital bill -- not even for a catastrophic illness, necessarily.
So who does this help? Rich people, who can stop paying taxes on their dividends and capital gains.
Are you surprised?
About doctors -- Here in my rural red state area we've experienced doctor shortages, though mine has opened up for new patients after not taking any for quite some time, so maybe things are ameliorating a bit. And there are doctors who bill on sliding scale for insured and uninsured patients, and do whatever else they can to attend to patients who can't afford standard fees and treatments. Some of them actually have relatively modest lifestyles, too.
About doctors -- Here in my rural red state area we've experienced doctor shortages, though mine has opened up for new patients after not taking any for quite some time, so maybe things are ameliorating a bit. And there are doctors who bill on sliding scale for insured and uninsured patients, and do whatever else they can to attend to patients who can't afford standard fees and treatments. Some of them actually have relatively modest lifestyles, too.
Who is surprised by this? I'm serious. This came up before the election. I forget what blog I saw it on. I couldn't understand at the time why Kerry & co. didn't hit this one out of the park.
Who is surprised by this? I'm serious. This came up before the election. I forget what blog I saw it on. I couldn't understand at the time why Kerry & co. didn't hit this one out of the park.
So who does this help? Rich people, who can stop paying taxes on their dividends and capital gains.
Are you surprised?
tinfoil hattie
Hell no, most here are not surprise. Who will be surprised are Bushists who voted for this monster. As will be Bush & posse when we at least try to get this message to them by aggressively campaigning the DNC to place ads in small Bushist newspapers about his shenanigans.
So who does this help? Rich people, who can stop paying taxes on their dividends and capital gains.
Are you surprised?
tinfoil hattie
Hell no, most here are not surprise. Who will be surprised are Bushists who voted for this monster. As will be Bush & posse when we at least try to get this message to them by aggressively campaigning the DNC to place ads in small Bushist newspapers about his shenanigans.
pregnntpaws, yeah, I'm familiar with the fact that both parties use PR firms, Hill & Knowlton is only one of several that should be despised. I can see thwarting progress by creating a panel of conflicting interests, but I would think that was only a tactic to delay any plans or recommendations long enough so that public opinion could be turned against the idea of health care reform. So, yes, I can see how it could be dead in the water per se from the get go. However, at the time, the majority of Americans were overwhelmingly in support of health care reform, the idea that we have should have socialized health care really, (there have been some excellent studies about how this whole campaign changed public opinion so swiftly). Thus, the reason that this endeavor would have to be delayed until public opinion could be swayed, otherwise voting against such proposals would have been inherently risky, especially with the mid-term elections coming up, hence the media blitz.
Anyway, I'm sorry to have mentioned the whole affair- why relive old assaults when we have so many more to address?
pregnntpaws, yeah, I'm familiar with the fact that both parties use PR firms, Hill & Knowlton is only one of several that should be despised. I can see thwarting progress by creating a panel of conflicting interests, but I would think that was only a tactic to delay any plans or recommendations long enough so that public opinion could be turned against the idea of health care reform. So, yes, I can see how it could be dead in the water per se from the get go. However, at the time, the majority of Americans were overwhelmingly in support of health care reform, the idea that we have should have socialized health care really, (there have been some excellent studies about how this whole campaign changed public opinion so swiftly). Thus, the reason that this endeavor would have to be delayed until public opinion could be swayed, otherwise voting against such proposals would have been inherently risky, especially with the mid-term elections coming up, hence the media blitz.
Anyway, I'm sorry to have mentioned the whole affair- why relive old assaults when we have so many more to address?
51%!
51%!
the health insurance companies will ask for a bailout in 2007
& then jeb! will run on a healthcare reform platform
the health insurance companies will ask for a bailout in 2007
& then jeb! will run on a healthcare reform platform
If you stupid fuckers keep on declaring war with the world (or allow those who support the wars to remain in power) You will see a steady erosion in living standards. It really is that simple.
If you stupid fuckers keep on declaring war with the world (or allow those who support the wars to remain in power) You will see a steady erosion in living standards. It really is that simple.
I just sent a copy of the WashPost story to about 40 Ohio newspaper editors, with a "thanks Ohio" in the subject line.
I also think it's time to stop talking among ourselves and take to the streets. Really.
I just sent a copy of the WashPost story to about 40 Ohio newspaper editors, with a "thanks Ohio" in the subject line.
I also think it's time to stop talking among ourselves and take to the streets. Really.
Their 35 year plan to make this country a third world country is coming to fruition BIG Time!
What I want to know is this: once they've gotten all this stuff passed and America finally does turn into a banana republic, can we have a third-world style leftist guerilla insurgency? I think I'd look great in a bandolier and an eye-patch, puffing on one of those stubby little cigars. "Comrade Chrome" has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?
Their 35 year plan to make this country a third world country is coming to fruition BIG Time!
What I want to know is this: once they've gotten all this stuff passed and America finally does turn into a banana republic, can we have a third-world style leftist guerilla insurgency? I think I'd look great in a bandolier and an eye-patch, puffing on one of those stubby little cigars. "Comrade Chrome" has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?
More and more, the United States is going to be a third-world country: A relative few rich people, a small middle-class, and everybody else, just struggling to get by, whether with respect to health care, or to wages, or to housing or whatever.
And guess what? Americans have asked for it. How? By not being informed enough over the past thirty years to find out what is going on as the big players go about pursuing their agendas, and also by selling out to illusions of get rich quick schemes that appeal to their naked greed and self-interest ("if you vote for us, we'll cut your taxes.")
Cool, isn't it?
I think it is going to be pretty interesting when 70 million Americans no longer have health insurance. I think it is going to be interesting when more people are going to be living on subsistance wages. Social unrest? Increasing crime? Calls for revolution?
These will present NO THREAT to the system, however. Why? Because the powers-that-be will have essentially succeeded in putting into place a draconian police state that will keep such things quelled . . . and which, by the way, will be one of the better ways for underemployed and undereducated Americans to find employment. In addition, the people will be so dumbed down through a lousy public educational system and more mass media crap, that they won't even have a clue as to what is really going on (kind of like today, but even worse.)
Think Orwell's "1984" and how the "prols" were living.
More and more, the United States is going to be a third-world country: A relative few rich people, a small middle-class, and everybody else, just struggling to get by, whether with respect to health care, or to wages, or to housing or whatever.
And guess what? Americans have asked for it. How? By not being informed enough over the past thirty years to find out what is going on as the big players go about pursuing their agendas, and also by selling out to illusions of get rich quick schemes that appeal to their naked greed and self-interest ("if you vote for us, we'll cut your taxes.")
Cool, isn't it?
I think it is going to be pretty interesting when 70 million Americans no longer have health insurance. I think it is going to be interesting when more people are going to be living on subsistance wages. Social unrest? Increasing crime? Calls for revolution?
These will present NO THREAT to the system, however. Why? Because the powers-that-be will have essentially succeeded in putting into place a draconian police state that will keep such things quelled . . . and which, by the way, will be one of the better ways for underemployed and undereducated Americans to find employment. In addition, the people will be so dumbed down through a lousy public educational system and more mass media crap, that they won't even have a clue as to what is really going on (kind of like today, but even worse.)
Think Orwell's "1984" and how the "prols" were living.
Not to overstate the obvious, but Kerry's loss is really going to hurt everybody not only in the US but on the planet. I read today that Powell said that Iran is looking to get nukes. Where have I heard that story before?
Not to overstate the obvious, but Kerry's loss is really going to hurt everybody not only in the US but on the planet. I read today that Powell said that Iran is looking to get nukes. Where have I heard that story before?
I also think it's time to stop talking among ourselves and take to the streets. Really.
Knot My Hair
I'm with you on that. Anyone outraged by this needs to take at least some small action today directed at a solution, rather than doomsday prophesying. I've contacted the DNC with the following suggestion designed to address the proposed elimination of tax on passive income:
I just called the "Shelby Daily Globe," a small-town newspaper with a circulation of about 4,000 in Ohio. Full page ads are a little more than $10,000. The DNC should establish a budget of perhaps $500,000 to start placing ads in newspapers like this to make noise about the elimination of taxes for the wealthy. You'll also need to have a small legal staff to deal with the inevitable hesitation of such papers to place anti-Bush material. But I'd really like to see the DNC spend maybe a million, tops, to start getting the message spread to Bush's constituency about the elimination of taxes on passive income. The flurry and controversy of such a maneuver would surely land the whole matter in all news outlets, thus parlaying a small investment into a large gain.
I also think it's time to stop talking among ourselves and take to the streets. Really.
Knot My Hair
I'm with you on that. Anyone outraged by this needs to take at least some small action today directed at a solution, rather than doomsday prophesying. I've contacted the DNC with the following suggestion designed to address the proposed elimination of tax on passive income:
I just called the "Shelby Daily Globe," a small-town newspaper with a circulation of about 4,000 in Ohio. Full page ads are a little more than $10,000. The DNC should establish a budget of perhaps $500,000 to start placing ads in newspapers like this to make noise about the elimination of taxes for the wealthy. You'll also need to have a small legal staff to deal with the inevitable hesitation of such papers to place anti-Bush material. But I'd really like to see the DNC spend maybe a million, tops, to start getting the message spread to Bush's constituency about the elimination of taxes on passive income. The flurry and controversy of such a maneuver would surely land the whole matter in all news outlets, thus parlaying a small investment into a large gain.
Nolk,
Actually, it's removing all taxes on increases or returns on accumulated wealth, and shifting them to returns on labor.
Which is funny, considering the contention of orthodox economists that labor is just another factor of production, no different from land or capital. So why is labor the only factor of production that it's legitimate to tax returns on?
And the average person is taxed on the same money more than once as it circulates, even though he was originally taxed on it as income. So why is it that taxes that fall on rich people are the only illegitimate cases of "double taxation"? Oops, guess I answered my own question.
Nolk,
Actually, it's removing all taxes on increases or returns on accumulated wealth, and shifting them to returns on labor.
Which is funny, considering the contention of orthodox economists that labor is just another factor of production, no different from land or capital. So why is labor the only factor of production that it's legitimate to tax returns on?
And the average person is taxed on the same money more than once as it circulates, even though he was originally taxed on it as income. So why is it that taxes that fall on rich people are the only illegitimate cases of "double taxation"? Oops, guess I answered my own question.
Not sure a nuanced response is welcome, but here goes:
There are two separate tax breaks associated with offering health insurance. One is the business expense deduction that basically equates the purchase of insurance with the payment of wages. This is totally justified and ending it wouldn't necessarily have the impact you are worried about as there's a relatively simple work around for most employers. (Raise wages by an equivalent amount and "offer" a group-type insurance product that you you pay for yourself) Wages are still tax deductible. However, of taxes on the employee would go up (in amount, not necessarily rate)
The second tax break is to keep payments for health insurance out of the social security wage base, so that neither employers nor employees pay the SS tax on expenditures related to the purchase of health insurance. Both employers and employees would be required to pay more taxes if this provision were eliminated.
It's a bad idea without having some systematic approach to take its place -- permitting individuals to buy what Congress buys itself with YOUR and MY money? On the other hand, sign me up as seeing employer provided health insurance as a not so hidden drag on our entire economy and labor market.
I just don't think going cold turkey is a great idea.
Not sure a nuanced response is welcome, but here goes:
There are two separate tax breaks associated with offering health insurance. One is the business expense deduction that basically equates the purchase of insurance with the payment of wages. This is totally justified and ending it wouldn't necessarily have the impact you are worried about as there's a relatively simple work around for most employers. (Raise wages by an equivalent amount and "offer" a group-type insurance product that you you pay for yourself) Wages are still tax deductible. However, of taxes on the employee would go up (in amount, not necessarily rate)
The second tax break is to keep payments for health insurance out of the social security wage base, so that neither employers nor employees pay the SS tax on expenditures related to the purchase of health insurance. Both employers and employees would be required to pay more taxes if this provision were eliminated.
It's a bad idea without having some systematic approach to take its place -- permitting individuals to buy what Congress buys itself with YOUR and MY money? On the other hand, sign me up as seeing employer provided health insurance as a not so hidden drag on our entire economy and labor market.
I just don't think going cold turkey is a great idea.
Not sure a nuanced response is welcome, but here goes:
I don't agree with your analysis, but am more outraged about proposed elimination of the tax burden on passive income in the form of interest, capital gains, and dividends.
Not sure a nuanced response is welcome, but here goes:
I don't agree with your analysis, but am more outraged about proposed elimination of the tax burden on passive income in the form of interest, capital gains, and dividends.
The gop reminds me of an incident at a horse show I once went to. It was put on by a small western riding club. During the show one of the members was this obnoxious kid who wasn't in any of the events but kept riding around getting in people's way and in general being an annoying idiot. He was also a terrible rider, inconsiderate of the horse, yanking its mouth and making it run constantly without a break. Finally, it had enough. It stopped suddenly and this little bozo flew over its head, did a somersault, and fell right on his ass. And the crowd cheered and applauded. It isn't often that you see somebody get his comeuppance in front of a crowd like that but it was beautiful. The gop is the same way. And I think that real soon it going to be sitting on its ass wondering what happened.
The gop reminds me of an incident at a horse show I once went to. It was put on by a small western riding club. During the show one of the members was this obnoxious kid who wasn't in any of the events but kept riding around getting in people's way and in general being an annoying idiot. He was also a terrible rider, inconsiderate of the horse, yanking its mouth and making it run constantly without a break. Finally, it had enough. It stopped suddenly and this little bozo flew over its head, did a somersault, and fell right on his ass. And the crowd cheered and applauded. It isn't often that you see somebody get his comeuppance in front of a crowd like that but it was beautiful. The gop is the same way. And I think that real soon it going to be sitting on its ass wondering what happened.
Anyway, I'm sorry to have mentioned the whole affair- why relive old assaults when we have so many more to address?
No imagination,
You are right, of course.
Anyway, I'm sorry to have mentioned the whole affair- why relive old assaults when we have so many more to address?
No imagination,
You are right, of course.
On the other hand, sign me up as seeing employer provided health insurance as a not so hidden drag on our entire economy and labor market.
How so? I am an English major & always want to understand economics better. They should have made me take it in college.
On the other hand, sign me up as seeing employer provided health insurance as a not so hidden drag on our entire economy and labor market.
How so? I am an English major & always want to understand economics better. They should have made me take it in college.
Someone was talking about ads.
Personally I would put my money for ad exposure in one place. The National Enquirer.
Folks who actually read the local newspaper will either have a pro or a con on this already. But I suspect many of those who do not, get more of their news from the tabloids. Hit them at the check out stand in the grocery store.
Someone was talking about ads.
Personally I would put my money for ad exposure in one place. The National Enquirer.
Folks who actually read the local newspaper will either have a pro or a con on this already. But I suspect many of those who do not, get more of their news from the tabloids. Hit them at the check out stand in the grocery store.
'Were all doctors motivated by money, inner city medical institutions would not be able to attract experienced, senior health care providers who are highly marketable to better-paying institutions.'
Recently I was told by a physician that we have the greatest healthcare system in the world as is exemplified by the great "inner city medical institutions" where we experiment on the poor in exchange for free medical care.
Fuck That!!!!! I almost puked in her face.
That is the sort of sensitivity that the jackbooted use.
Honey, you can remain in your little slurry pot of BS and want to talk about overstatements and understatements and other hair splitting nothings. I am talking about real people being impoverished by this medical system which does nothing about the manner in which it
exploits the people on an ongoing and increasing speedy road to yours, mine, and the people's pain and demise just because the rich and well placed want to take over the fucking world.
'Were all doctors motivated by money, inner city medical institutions would not be able to attract experienced, senior health care providers who are highly marketable to better-paying institutions.'
Recently I was told by a physician that we have the greatest healthcare system in the world as is exemplified by the great "inner city medical institutions" where we experiment on the poor in exchange for free medical care.
Fuck That!!!!! I almost puked in her face.
That is the sort of sensitivity that the jackbooted use.
Honey, you can remain in your little slurry pot of BS and want to talk about overstatements and understatements and other hair splitting nothings. I am talking about real people being impoverished by this medical system which does nothing about the manner in which it
exploits the people on an ongoing and increasing speedy road to yours, mine, and the people's pain and demise just because the rich and well placed want to take over the fucking world.
My e-mail to my Rep and two Senators:
Dear Rep or Senator:
I was reading today's Washington Post in regard to the President's plan to overhaul the tax code. Several things that were troubling jumped out at me. Particularly, this paragraph:
The changes are meant to be revenue-neutral. To pay for them, the administration is considering eliminating the deduction of state and local taxes on federal income tax returns and scrapping the , the advisers said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp...-
2004Nov17.html
Now, I don't itemize my federal income tax, so the first won't affect me, however, many Tennesseans were counting on the chance to, for the first time in over a decade this year, deduct their sales tax. As you're well aware, Tennessee ranks in the top five or six in sales tax rates. But more disturbing to me, is the plan to "scrap business tax deduction for employer-provided health insurance". This WILL affect many employees, who will be dropped from health insurance rolls when their employers can no longer afford to offer them insurance.
Please do NOT support this plan. It will overwhelming affect the middle class and the working poor.
Sincerely,
Personal stuff here
My e-mail to my Rep and two Senators:
Dear Rep or Senator:
I was reading today's Washington Post in regard to the President's plan to overhaul the tax code. Several things that were troubling jumped out at me. Particularly, this paragraph:
The changes are meant to be revenue-neutral. To pay for them, the administration is considering eliminating the deduction of state and local taxes on federal income tax returns and scrapping the , the advisers said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp...-
2004Nov17.html
Now, I don't itemize my federal income tax, so the first won't affect me, however, many Tennesseans were counting on the chance to, for the first time in over a decade this year, deduct their sales tax. As you're well aware, Tennessee ranks in the top five or six in sales tax rates. But more disturbing to me, is the plan to "scrap business tax deduction for employer-provided health insurance". This WILL affect many employees, who will be dropped from health insurance rolls when their employers can no longer afford to offer them insurance.
Please do NOT support this plan. It will overwhelming affect the middle class and the working poor.
Sincerely,
Personal stuff here
Well,
The bast thing I can personally say about this is that since my wife and I have some savings, whatever interest, appreciation and dividends we got on that would be a bit more. We also live in the San Francisco Bay Area, and I am certain that our statss, counties, and employers would find a way to continue to provide us with healthcare insurance. Once we actually try to buy a house in this insane real estate market, though, things would get pretty tough for us. To start with, our savings would disappear, eliminating that benefit. Then, if if we can't deduct our property tax from out federal return, we'll get squeezed pretty hard. In a place where any decent house costs at least $600,000, that's at least a $9,000 deduction from our federal taxable income that evaporates. Ouch. The bar has just been raised for us once again. Ownership society? Hah! I guess what they mean by that is that no matter how hard you work, the really rich people own YOU. My wife and I make over $130,00/year between us, and this policy change would put a painful squeeze on us. For people making less, it only gets worse. We can weather it, because we have enough money to benefit slightly in some ways and because we live in a place that will not just let people lose their health insurance. I'll bet that a lot of those fools in the red states who voted for this aministration will not be able to weather it, though. The double-whammy of interest rate increases and the loss of a big hunk of their home ownership tax shelter will break them. Serves them right! I just hope that this time, they're not to F*cking stupid to remember who it was who robbed them in 2006! Meanwhile, they can ponder whether the righteous persecution of gay couples that brought them to the polls was worht the price as they survey the shabby, rented apartments or trailers they are now forced to live in.
Simplify the tax code, indeed!
Well,
The bast thing I can personally say about this is that since my wife and I have some savings, whatever interest, appreciation and dividends we got on that would be a bit more. We also live in the San Francisco Bay Area, and I am certain that our statss, counties, and employers would find a way to continue to provide us with healthcare insurance. Once we actually try to buy a house in this insane real estate market, though, things would get pretty tough for us. To start with, our savings would disappear, eliminating that benefit. Then, if if we can't deduct our property tax from out federal return, we'll get squeezed pretty hard. In a place where any decent house costs at least $600,000, that's at least a $9,000 deduction from our federal taxable income that evaporates. Ouch. The bar has just been raised for us once again. Ownership society? Hah! I guess what they mean by that is that no matter how hard you work, the really rich people own YOU. My wife and I make over $130,00/year between us, and this policy change would put a painful squeeze on us. For people making less, it only gets worse. We can weather it, because we have enough money to benefit slightly in some ways and because we live in a place that will not just let people lose their health insurance. I'll bet that a lot of those fools in the red states who voted for this aministration will not be able to weather it, though. The double-whammy of interest rate increases and the loss of a big hunk of their home ownership tax shelter will break them. Serves them right! I just hope that this time, they're not to F*cking stupid to remember who it was who robbed them in 2006! Meanwhile, they can ponder whether the righteous persecution of gay couples that brought them to the polls was worht the price as they survey the shabby, rented apartments or trailers they are now forced to live in.
Simplify the tax code, indeed!
Jesus. The purge at the CIA and State. Getting rid of country of origin food labeling. Drilling in ANWR and billions in tax cuts in the now revitalized energy bill. Raising the debt ceiling another $800 billion. The elimination of these deductions and all taxes on anything but wages (watch payroll taxes go up as a result, folks).
And it's still fucking NOVEMBER for chrissakes! The election was only two weeks ago.
Four fucking years? By the time they get done the damage will last four fucking lifetimes.
Jesus. The purge at the CIA and State. Getting rid of country of origin food labeling. Drilling in ANWR and billions in tax cuts in the now revitalized energy bill. Raising the debt ceiling another $800 billion. The elimination of these deductions and all taxes on anything but wages (watch payroll taxes go up as a result, folks).
And it's still fucking NOVEMBER for chrissakes! The election was only two weeks ago.
Four fucking years? By the time they get done the damage will last four fucking lifetimes.
Personally I would put my money for ad exposure in one place. The National Enquirer.
EkCenTriK
Brilliant fucking idea. National Enquirer 1/4 page ads cost $11,600 (couldn't get a quote from sales b/c I refused to give the name of an organization). Here are costs of other high circulation magazines:
Parade: 1/5 page $110,000
Modern Maturity: 1/3 page $ 84,600
Reader's Digest: 1/2 page $ 72,900
Let's start hounding the DNC to begin to use innovative approaches to get the message across to Bush supporters, in any way possible.
Personally I would put my money for ad exposure in one place. The National Enquirer.
EkCenTriK
Brilliant fucking idea. National Enquirer 1/4 page ads cost $11,600 (couldn't get a quote from sales b/c I refused to give the name of an organization). Here are costs of other high circulation magazines:
Parade: 1/5 page $110,000
Modern Maturity: 1/3 page $ 84,600
Reader's Digest: 1/2 page $ 72,900
Let's start hounding the DNC to begin to use innovative approaches to get the message across to Bush supporters, in any way possible.
The thing that scares me about this is the assumption we're making that hospitals and doctors would still treat people who have no insurance.
What if they don't?
There are currently laws that require hospitals to treat everybody, regardless of ability to pay. But as we have seen, laws mean nothing to the neocons.
What if this is the next part of the plan? You can't pay for health care, you can't get it. Period.
The thing that scares me about this is the assumption we're making that hospitals and doctors would still treat people who have no insurance.
What if they don't?
There are currently laws that require hospitals to treat everybody, regardless of ability to pay. But as we have seen, laws mean nothing to the neocons.
What if this is the next part of the plan? You can't pay for health care, you can't get it. Period.
cass,
RE: where we experiment on the poor in exchange for free medical care
Come on, that's just not fair. I know a lot of those doctors. They are not experimenting on the poor. Those inner city institutions, like SF General, wher I worked until recently are teaching hospitals. WHat happens there is that the poor get to be treated by the most talented and promising medical trainees in the world. At SF general, those would be the med students, interns, and residents of UCSF, one of the world's very best medical schools. So you could say they are being practiced upon, but not that they are being experimented upon. Can that Mengele shit.
Mind you, none of that constitutes any kind of excuse for the state of the health care system in this country, in which many of the working and middle classes are beaten down into wage slavery because of health care costs, but please don't take it out on the doctors. There are plenty of asshole doctors out there, but there are even more who are simply the salt of the Earth.
cass,
RE: where we experiment on the poor in exchange for free medical care
Come on, that's just not fair. I know a lot of those doctors. They are not experimenting on the poor. Those inner city institutions, like SF General, wher I worked until recently are teaching hospitals. WHat happens there is that the poor get to be treated by the most talented and promising medical trainees in the world. At SF general, those would be the med students, interns, and residents of UCSF, one of the world's very best medical schools. So you could say they are being practiced upon, but not that they are being experimented upon. Can that Mengele shit.
Mind you, none of that constitutes any kind of excuse for the state of the health care system in this country, in which many of the working and middle classes are beaten down into wage slavery because of health care costs, but please don't take it out on the doctors. There are plenty of asshole doctors out there, but there are even more who are simply the salt of the Earth.
Were all doctors motivated by money, inner city medical institutions would not be able to attract experienced, senior health care providers who are highly marketable to better-paying institutions. Be more specific in your rant, as I'm sure your argument is applicable to some. It is simply not applicable to all.
What does it matter if it's not applicable to EVERY physician? Isn't it sufficient that these criticisms are perfectly valid for the vast majority of physicians?
The basic reality is that there is NO organization representing physicians that presents an EFFECTIVE counterbalance to the reactionary AMA. If enough physicians were authentically concerned about the direction the AMA was taking the profession, a roughly equivalent amount of money and energy would be relocated in alternative professional organizations, and it is, emphatically, NOT.
As I've said, physicians can't take the remarkable salaries they are paid due to the greed-based advocacy of the AMA, and then pretend that they bear no responsibility for the incalculable damage the AMA has done to progressive health care reform.
Were all doctors motivated by money, inner city medical institutions would not be able to attract experienced, senior health care providers who are highly marketable to better-paying institutions. Be more specific in your rant, as I'm sure your argument is applicable to some. It is simply not applicable to all.
What does it matter if it's not applicable to EVERY physician? Isn't it sufficient that these criticisms are perfectly valid for the vast majority of physicians?
The basic reality is that there is NO organization representing physicians that presents an EFFECTIVE counterbalance to the reactionary AMA. If enough physicians were authentically concerned about the direction the AMA was taking the profession, a roughly equivalent amount of money and energy would be relocated in alternative professional organizations, and it is, emphatically, NOT.
As I've said, physicians can't take the remarkable salaries they are paid due to the greed-based advocacy of the AMA, and then pretend that they bear no responsibility for the incalculable damage the AMA has done to progressive health care reform.
If this thing passes, for the common wo/man to take advantage of this they need to do 4 things:
1) incorporate and service out as a private contractor instead of as a salaried worker
2) Do not pay yourself a wage, compensate yourself with stock.
3) Plow all of your profits back into the business
4) pay yourself very high, non-taxable dividends.
Mrs Dissent and I are already taking steps to do that. And being as how I alreay do consulting work, the move to incorporate, with a female native american as the business owner, will only help.
If this thing passes, for the common wo/man to take advantage of this they need to do 4 things:
1) incorporate and service out as a private contractor instead of as a salaried worker
2) Do not pay yourself a wage, compensate yourself with stock.
3) Plow all of your profits back into the business
4) pay yourself very high, non-taxable dividends.
Mrs Dissent and I are already taking steps to do that. And being as how I alreay do consulting work, the move to incorporate, with a female native american as the business owner, will only help.
pregnntpaws, I am very concerned about the issues the admin is floating here. As I said further up thread, this is a diversionary tactic which will shift the public debate from the propriety of giving more tax relief for unearned income to the outrage of double taxation. In fact it's a great setup- floating something they have always used as justification for lowering the tax burden on the elites, which will provide cover for Republicans to come out against it. Thus, they can appear to be moderate compromisers willing to stand up for the middle class, while giving more handouts to the wealthy. As GN says, we need a media blitz, but I'm not sure how effective that will prove- and, for various reasons, that cannot be done until concrete proposals have been established. I see this as a classic tactic that has proven to work time and time again for the Repubs, and am not sure how such sleight of hand tactics can be effectively muted, especially with Republican control of both houses.
pregnntpaws, I am very concerned about the issues the admin is floating here. As I said further up thread, this is a diversionary tactic which will shift the public debate from the propriety of giving more tax relief for unearned income to the outrage of double taxation. In fact it's a great setup- floating something they have always used as justification for lowering the tax burden on the elites, which will provide cover for Republicans to come out against it. Thus, they can appear to be moderate compromisers willing to stand up for the middle class, while giving more handouts to the wealthy. As GN says, we need a media blitz, but I'm not sure how effective that will prove- and, for various reasons, that cannot be done until concrete proposals have been established. I see this as a classic tactic that has proven to work time and time again for the Repubs, and am not sure how such sleight of hand tactics can be effectively muted, especially with Republican control of both houses.
Mind you, none of that constitutes any kind of excuse for the state of the health care system in this country, in which many of the working and middle classes are beaten down into wage slavery because of health care costs, but please don't take it out on the doctors. There are plenty of asshole doctors out there, but there are even more who are simply the salt of the Earth.
Blerb
Thank you. Disparaging those who put their heart, souls, and money into providing care, particularly for people who do not have primary care physicians, merely because they do not challenge the AMA at an organizational level is highly unfair. This does not negate the main point that health care reform is necessary because the system is abusive to the poor and the working class.
Mind you, none of that constitutes any kind of excuse for the state of the health care system in this country, in which many of the working and middle classes are beaten down into wage slavery because of health care costs, but please don't take it out on the doctors. There are plenty of asshole doctors out there, but there are even more who are simply the salt of the Earth.
Blerb
Thank you. Disparaging those who put their heart, souls, and money into providing care, particularly for people who do not have primary care physicians, merely because they do not challenge the AMA at an organizational level is highly unfair. This does not negate the main point that health care reform is necessary because the system is abusive to the poor and the working class.
Nora,
RE: What if they don't?
Thenm the doctors will simply ignore the rules of their institutions. As I said above, I know a handful of asshole doctors. But the vast majority of doctors I know would NEVER refuse to treat a seriously ill person because of lack of financial means. If their institutions tried to force them to behave otherwise, there would be a widespread rebellion.
Nora,
RE: What if they don't?
Thenm the doctors will simply ignore the rules of their institutions. As I said above, I know a handful of asshole doctors. But the vast majority of doctors I know would NEVER refuse to treat a seriously ill person because of lack of financial means. If their institutions tried to force them to behave otherwise, there would be a widespread rebellion.
pregnntpaws, I am very concerned about the issues the admin is floating here. As I said further up thread, this is a diversionary tactic which will shift the public debate from the propriety of giving more tax relief for unearned income to the outrage of double taxation. In fact it's a great setup- floating something they have always used as justification for lowering the tax burden on the elites, which will provide cover for Republicans to come out against it.
That's an excellent point. It's time to actively reframe the issue to focus on the proposed elimination of the tax burden on passive income. EkCenTriK proposed an ad in the National Enquirer. Hound the DNC to make it so.
pregnntpaws, I am very concerned about the issues the admin is floating here. As I said further up thread, this is a diversionary tactic which will shift the public debate from the propriety of giving more tax relief for unearned income to the outrage of double taxation. In fact it's a great setup- floating something they have always used as justification for lowering the tax burden on the elites, which will provide cover for Republicans to come out against it.
That's an excellent point. It's time to actively reframe the issue to focus on the proposed elimination of the tax burden on passive income. EkCenTriK proposed an ad in the National Enquirer. Hound the DNC to make it so.
GN: Reader's Digest is also an excellent suggestion -- big red-state readership there. But given how conservative RD's editors and publishers are, do you really think they would accept an advertisement that criticized the Bush administration?
GN: Reader's Digest is also an excellent suggestion -- big red-state readership there. But given how conservative RD's editors and publishers are, do you really think they would accept an advertisement that criticized the Bush administration?
Mind you, none of that constitutes any kind of excuse for the state of the health care system in this country, in which many of the working and middle classes are beaten down into wage slavery because of health care costs, but please don't take it out on the doctors.
And on whom should it be taken out?
Try to remember Bush's constant rejoinder to Kerry, whenever Kerry brought up the issue of health care costs. Bush claimed that the problem was simply that there were too many law suits against doctors.
Again, how many doctors did YOU hear protesting that this was an absurd characterization, and expressing their outrage that a man like Bush, who represented nothing but greed and ignorance, was trading on the good name of physicians in order to promote his own ugly political ends?
I'll tell you how many doctors said this: almost exactly zero, and none, that I know of, who represented any significant organization of physicians.
And Bush KNEW he could get away with this without being called on it by physicians, because that has ALWAYS been the history with them.
The entire issue of health care reform, one of the most important in our current politics, has been defused by Republicans with the obvious complicity of physicians.
What a "noble" profession, you know?
Mind you, none of that constitutes any kind of excuse for the state of the health care system in this country, in which many of the working and middle classes are beaten down into wage slavery because of health care costs, but please don't take it out on the doctors.
And on whom should it be taken out?
Try to remember Bush's constant rejoinder to Kerry, whenever Kerry brought up the issue of health care costs. Bush claimed that the problem was simply that there were too many law suits against doctors.
Again, how many doctors did YOU hear protesting that this was an absurd characterization, and expressing their outrage that a man like Bush, who represented nothing but greed and ignorance, was trading on the good name of physicians in order to promote his own ugly political ends?
I'll tell you how many doctors said this: almost exactly zero, and none, that I know of, who represented any significant organization of physicians.
And Bush KNEW he could get away with this without being called on it by physicians, because that has ALWAYS been the history with them.
The entire issue of health care reform, one of the most important in our current politics, has been defused by Republicans with the obvious complicity of physicians.
What a "noble" profession, you know?
Midaeval world, bitches!!
Enjoy it.
Fuedalism, bitches.
Enjoy it.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
(That laugh, by the way, is for all those who thought Kerry was "Mr. Electable" and didn't "like" Dean.)
Midaeval world, bitches!!
Enjoy it.
Fuedalism, bitches.
Enjoy it.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
(That laugh, by the way, is for all those who thought Kerry was "Mr. Electable" and didn't "like" Dean.)
Calling Accounting, Business and economics majors with time on your hands!
I have a proposal for a student-based think tank specifically to work on tax reform and working through the Bush administration's tax proposals.
Interested people would need to be able to work over the Internet and have excellent (and I mean excellent) writing skills.
If we do this right, we can become something important. Any takers?
-- Yehuda Katz
Calling Accounting, Business and economics majors with time on your hands!
I have a proposal for a student-based think tank specifically to work on tax reform and working through the Bush administration's tax proposals.
Interested people would need to be able to work over the Internet and have excellent (and I mean excellent) writing skills.
If we do this right, we can become something important. Any takers?
-- Yehuda Katz
Say "goodbye" to the New Deal.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
It will be interesting for us all to relive what America was really like during the ninetheenth century.
Only now, we don't have a strong labor movement to counter any of this shit, and we have a whole bunch of "moderate" Democrats who still believe in the "system" and don't realize that their ship is headed for an iceberg.
It's all so pathetic, that all I can now do is laugh in irrational glee.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Say "goodbye" to the New Deal.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
It will be interesting for us all to relive what America was really like during the ninetheenth century.
Only now, we don't have a strong labor movement to counter any of this shit, and we have a whole bunch of "moderate" Democrats who still believe in the "system" and don't realize that their ship is headed for an iceberg.
It's all so pathetic, that all I can now do is laugh in irrational glee.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Calling Accounting, Business and economics majors with time on your hands!
I have a proposal for a student-based think tank specifically to work on tax reform and working through the Bush administration's tax proposals.
Interested people would need to be able to work over the Internet and have excellent (and I mean excellent) writing skills.
If we do this right, we can become something important. Any takers?
-- Yehuda Katz
Calling Accounting, Business and economics majors with time on your hands!
I have a proposal for a student-based think tank specifically to work on tax reform and working through the Bush administration's tax proposals.
Interested people would need to be able to work over the Internet and have excellent (and I mean excellent) writing skills.
If we do this right, we can become something important. Any takers?
-- Yehuda Katz
But given how conservative RD's editors and publishers are, do you really think they would accept an advertisement that criticized the Bush administration?
Ridnik Chrome
Not without a big, public fight. That's why I also suggested that the DNC set up a small legal team for precisely this reason along with an advertising budget.
But given how conservative RD's editors and publishers are, do you really think they would accept an advertisement that criticized the Bush administration?
Ridnik Chrome
Not without a big, public fight. That's why I also suggested that the DNC set up a small legal team for precisely this reason along with an advertising budget.
"RE: where we experiment on the poor in exchange for free medical care
Come on, that's just not fair."
Blerb, I know it isn't fair. It is true however. I didn't make this up. It was told me by my FORMER dermatologist.
Also, just because people seem to think they know a doctor who would never refuse care to a person who needs it, I contribute the fact that everybody will need it if they become ill without insurance. I know somebody whose wife just died and finally he thinks he has gotten the final hospital bill to the tune of $900.00 (doesn't include the doctors' bills).
Please, you just seem to live in a fantasy world. Knowing a doctor who wouldn't refuse medical care is only the beginning. You just haven't lived yet.
The system is corrupt. The doctors collude with it and don't fight it and it is bankrupting and killing a lot of people.
"RE: where we experiment on the poor in exchange for free medical care
Come on, that's just not fair."
Blerb, I know it isn't fair. It is true however. I didn't make this up. It was told me by my FORMER dermatologist.
Also, just because people seem to think they know a doctor who would never refuse care to a person who needs it, I contribute the fact that everybody will need it if they become ill without insurance. I know somebody whose wife just died and finally he thinks he has gotten the final hospital bill to the tune of $900.00 (doesn't include the doctors' bills).
Please, you just seem to live in a fantasy world. Knowing a doctor who wouldn't refuse medical care is only the beginning. You just haven't lived yet.
The system is corrupt. The doctors collude with it and don't fight it and it is bankrupting and killing a lot of people.
fuck forgot to change my nick back after my playing yesterday...
fuck forgot to change my nick back after my playing yesterday...
On the state & local taxes: are we sure this isn't just a slapdown to the blue states? I'll bet we have higher rates of state & local taxes in general, so this hurts me more than, say, a Mississippian.
NYMary
Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!
We Have a Winner!
Yeah, and couple that with the Red States mostly being "right-to-work" states, where benefits are mostly imaginary, there's no down side for them, and no up for us.
Perfect.
On the state & local taxes: are we sure this isn't just a slapdown to the blue states? I'll bet we have higher rates of state & local taxes in general, so this hurts me more than, say, a Mississippian.
NYMary
Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!
We Have a Winner!
Yeah, and couple that with the Red States mostly being "right-to-work" states, where benefits are mostly imaginary, there's no down side for them, and no up for us.
Perfect.
Blerb, I know it isn't fair. It is true however. I didn't make this up. It was told me by my FORMER dermatologist.
Please, you just seem to live in a fantasy world. Knowing a doctor who wouldn't refuse medical care is only the beginning. You just haven't lived yet.
And so your friggin dermatologist knows more about what goes on in inner-city hospitals than my mother and her colleagues who have worked at several of them for decades? If you are going to criticize a system, put some real work into learning it first.
Blerb, I know it isn't fair. It is true however. I didn't make this up. It was told me by my FORMER dermatologist.
Please, you just seem to live in a fantasy world. Knowing a doctor who wouldn't refuse medical care is only the beginning. You just haven't lived yet.
And so your friggin dermatologist knows more about what goes on in inner-city hospitals than my mother and her colleagues who have worked at several of them for decades? If you are going to criticize a system, put some real work into learning it first.
Dems- re-register Green. Until their base begins to desert them enmasse, the DLC will continue to dither and wobble to the right, giving lip-service and gutless compromising sops to progressive causes, while bending their collective knee to their corporate sponsors.
Dems- re-register Green. Until their base begins to desert them enmasse, the DLC will continue to dither and wobble to the right, giving lip-service and gutless compromising sops to progressive causes, while bending their collective knee to their corporate sponsors.
In the election aftermath, the Administration's contempt for the American people must be complete--those dumb goobers will swallow ANYTHING.
So if you scrap their health plans, they'll probably blame it on gay marriage.
In the election aftermath, the Administration's contempt for the American people must be complete--those dumb goobers will swallow ANYTHING.
So if you scrap their health plans, they'll probably blame it on gay marriage.
To all those bitching about docs:
Look, just like in any profession or any group of people, there are always some assholes, and many of them are misinformed. So, making sweeping statements about how greedy and callous physicians are is not going to elevate the debate- name calling will not work, it alienates, and is non-productive. I too know many compassionate nurses and physicians who are concerned about the the uninsured and the skyrocketing costs of malpractice insurance, and indeed many of them understand that tort reform is not the answer. In fact, I know a medical doctor who is a lawyer who constantly criticizes the insurance industry for its dishonest framing of the debate. I also personally know, (an immediate family member), who is an absolute asshole who buys into the insurance industry/Repub framework, and to state the obvious, he is woefully misinformed about the facts. Just because people are physicians, does not mean that they are all knowing, or that they are particularly good candidates for addressing the issues- many, like the rest of us, just do not have the time to keep abreast of all the issues, and instead rely on cursory sounbites- many docs are just like the masses, easily swayed by propoganda.
/my 2 cents
To all those bitching about docs:
Look, just like in any profession or any group of people, there are always some assholes, and many of them are misinformed. So, making sweeping statements about how greedy and callous physicians are is not going to elevate the debate- name calling will not work, it alienates, and is non-productive. I too know many compassionate nurses and physicians who are concerned about the the uninsured and the skyrocketing costs of malpractice insurance, and indeed many of them understand that tort reform is not the answer. In fact, I know a medical doctor who is a lawyer who constantly criticizes the insurance industry for its dishonest framing of the debate. I also personally know, (an immediate family member), who is an absolute asshole who buys into the insurance industry/Repub framework, and to state the obvious, he is woefully misinformed about the facts. Just because people are physicians, does not mean that they are all knowing, or that they are particularly good candidates for addressing the issues- many, like the rest of us, just do not have the time to keep abreast of all the issues, and instead rely on cursory sounbites- many docs are just like the masses, easily swayed by propoganda.
/my 2 cents
Most Deep Red states have no income taxes. This will hit Blues extra hard.
Unless of course the people in the Blue states just happen to not pay their federal income tax anymore...
Without a fair and accurate count of all the votes, why should we? This government, under control of Republicans, will make billions of dollars vanish in the desert, but won't allocate a single dime to investigate the massive amounts of "irregularities" that happened during the election. Why should we fund the continuing erosion of our own civil rights?
Most Deep Red states have no income taxes. This will hit Blues extra hard.
Unless of course the people in the Blue states just happen to not pay their federal income tax anymore...
Without a fair and accurate count of all the votes, why should we? This government, under control of Republicans, will make billions of dollars vanish in the desert, but won't allocate a single dime to investigate the massive amounts of "irregularities" that happened during the election. Why should we fund the continuing erosion of our own civil rights?
Dems- re-register Green. Until their base begins to desert them enmasse, the DLC will continue to dither and wobble to the right, giving lip-service and gutless compromising sops to progressive causes, while bending their collective knee to their corporate sponsors.
The DLC base is not going to desert them and reregister Green in any case, and is always going to be centrist, because that's what the DLC is and was founded as -- a group of centrist democrats. If you are going to argue with acronyms, at least know what they mean; particularly, if you are going to use either "DLC" or "DNC" and to insinuate that one of them is doing something wrong, no which one is the national democratic party organization that people would be abandoning if they left the Democratic Party to join a more leftist party and try to push the Dems out of the center to center-right, and which is a center to center-right faction within the Democratic Party whose entire purpose to keep the party anchored firmly in the center to center-right.
Dems- re-register Green. Until their base begins to desert them enmasse, the DLC will continue to dither and wobble to the right, giving lip-service and gutless compromising sops to progressive causes, while bending their collective knee to their corporate sponsors.
The DLC base is not going to desert them and reregister Green in any case, and is always going to be centrist, because that's what the DLC is and was founded as -- a group of centrist democrats. If you are going to argue with acronyms, at least know what they mean; particularly, if you are going to use either "DLC" or "DNC" and to insinuate that one of them is doing something wrong, no which one is the national democratic party organization that people would be abandoning if they left the Democratic Party to join a more leftist party and try to push the Dems out of the center to center-right, and which is a center to center-right faction within the Democratic Party whose entire purpose to keep the party anchored firmly in the center to center-right.
Just because people are physicians, does not mean that they are all knowing, or that they are particularly good candidates for addressing the issues- many, like the rest of us, just do not have the time to keep abreast of all the issues, and instead rely on cursory sounbites- many docs are just like the masses, easily swayed by propoganda.
My argument is that in many inner-city hospitals, which Cass says her dermatologist has labeled a breeding ground for medical experimentation on the poor, many physicians have the unique vantage point of seeing first-hand the devastating effects of lack of health care coverage, mainly in the form of patients lacking primary care physicians. Cass claims that such physicians willingly vote for politicians who do not advocate universal health insurance. I'm saying that in at least in this subgroup of physicians, that is simply untrue and is a ridiculous generalization.
Just because people are physicians, does not mean that they are all knowing, or that they are particularly good candidates for addressing the issues- many, like the rest of us, just do not have the time to keep abreast of all the issues, and instead rely on cursory sounbites- many docs are just like the masses, easily swayed by propoganda.
My argument is that in many inner-city hospitals, which Cass says her dermatologist has labeled a breeding ground for medical experimentation on the poor, many physicians have the unique vantage point of seeing first-hand the devastating effects of lack of health care coverage, mainly in the form of patients lacking primary care physicians. Cass claims that such physicians willingly vote for politicians who do not advocate universal health insurance. I'm saying that in at least in this subgroup of physicians, that is simply untrue and is a ridiculous generalization.
I think I understand the financial reasons why Miss Norquist and her merry band of no-taxers want to make sure that the overclass doesn't pay any taxes, but what philosophical or ideological reason(s) do they have for pursuing policies that will destroy the middle class in America, force the most talented and ambitious to take their skills to another country, etc.
I just don't understand why it is such a passion for them. Describing wanting to end something by "drowning it in the bathtub" has such passionate and almost psychotically erotic overtones that it boggles the mind. It's effing creepy, IMHO.
What the hell is wrong with these people?
I think I understand the financial reasons why Miss Norquist and her merry band of no-taxers want to make sure that the overclass doesn't pay any taxes, but what philosophical or ideological reason(s) do they have for pursuing policies that will destroy the middle class in America, force the most talented and ambitious to take their skills to another country, etc.
I just don't understand why it is such a passion for them. Describing wanting to end something by "drowning it in the bathtub" has such passionate and almost psychotically erotic overtones that it boggles the mind. It's effing creepy, IMHO.
What the hell is wrong with these people?
GN, I'm agreeing with you. I too know many folks who work or had worked in the inner city providing care to the poor- it in fact infuriates them that these people must get to deaths door before they can receive any medical attention. I've also seen them become burned out because of the strain the system puts them under- less personnel, equip, funding, etc. And, as I said, I think sweeping generalizations are counter-productive.
GN, I'm agreeing with you. I too know many folks who work or had worked in the inner city providing care to the poor- it in fact infuriates them that these people must get to deaths door before they can receive any medical attention. I've also seen them become burned out because of the strain the system puts them under- less personnel, equip, funding, etc. And, as I said, I think sweeping generalizations are counter-productive.
The Democrats should all calmly vote no, explaining succinctly why, and leave it at that. Let it pass. Maybe those values based voters can turn to their churches for help with medical insurance or maybe they can figure out how its the liberal latte drinkers' fault. Let these people work their evil. Would there be a swing in voter direction? Unfortunately, probably not. Neither the health insurance issue or the state tax issue will effect the lower middle class or poor because they don't pay much state tax and they don't have health insurance anyway. It won't matter to the rich who will be getting the goodies. It will be security mom, and lawnmower man who feel the pain, but they are so credulous they will buy whatever drivel, the right wing and the media hand out on this issue. This stampede off the cliff ain't stopping till everyones at the bottom.
The Democrats should all calmly vote no, explaining succinctly why, and leave it at that. Let it pass. Maybe those values based voters can turn to their churches for help with medical insurance or maybe they can figure out how its the liberal latte drinkers' fault. Let these people work their evil. Would there be a swing in voter direction? Unfortunately, probably not. Neither the health insurance issue or the state tax issue will effect the lower middle class or poor because they don't pay much state tax and they don't have health insurance anyway. It won't matter to the rich who will be getting the goodies. It will be security mom, and lawnmower man who feel the pain, but they are so credulous they will buy whatever drivel, the right wing and the media hand out on this issue. This stampede off the cliff ain't stopping till everyones at the bottom.
but what philosophical or ideological reason(s) do they have for pursuing policies that will destroy the middle class in America
I think you've answered your own question: "...passionate and almost psychotic ally erotic overtones..."
but what philosophical or ideological reason(s) do they have for pursuing policies that will destroy the middle class in America
I think you've answered your own question: "...passionate and almost psychotic ally erotic overtones..."
RE:
how many doctors did YOU hear protesting ...his own ugly political ends?
and
Knowing a doctor who wouldn't refuse medical care
Well, all I can say is that I don't know A doctor who wouldn't refuse medical care to the indigent regardless of the rules, I know DOZENS. I also know many, many physicians who feel they would actually get a BETTER deal from some kind of governent-run single-payer healthcare system than they currently do from the HMO's. Those HMO's aren't only about squeezing patients, you know. They increase their profits just as much by shorting doctors. I do NOT live in a fantasy world. Did you guys not get the part about how I worked at SF General for THREE YEARS? I must know over 200 people with MD degrees here in the SF Bay Area personally. Now I can't speak for the attitudes of some Middle-American suburban dermatologist, but I am certain that a large majority of those people did NOT vote for George Bush. Our landlord is a staff surgeon at Kaiser, and just last night she spent an hour on the phone with my wife complaining about the election, after we called her about a minor repair. I kid you not.
Believe me, folks, DOCTORS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. If nobody in this country can afford healthcare, HOW WILL THEY GET PAID? Did that not occur to any of you? Maybe some of them are for tort reform because they feel they are getting squeezed by malpractice insurance rates, and may have supported Bush for that reason. But if the Shrub were to repay them for that by creating tens of millions of patients who have no means to pay their bills, they will realize VERY QUICKLY that they have been punk'd. Most MD's are not idiots. Their self-interest is firmly connected to the ability of the American public to afford health care.
RE:
how many doctors did YOU hear protesting ...his own ugly political ends?
and
Knowing a doctor who wouldn't refuse medical care
Well, all I can say is that I don't know A doctor who wouldn't refuse medical care to the indigent regardless of the rules, I know DOZENS. I also know many, many physicians who feel they would actually get a BETTER deal from some kind of governent-run single-payer healthcare system than they currently do from the HMO's. Those HMO's aren't only about squeezing patients, you know. They increase their profits just as much by shorting doctors. I do NOT live in a fantasy world. Did you guys not get the part about how I worked at SF General for THREE YEARS? I must know over 200 people with MD degrees here in the SF Bay Area personally. Now I can't speak for the attitudes of some Middle-American suburban dermatologist, but I am certain that a large majority of those people did NOT vote for George Bush. Our landlord is a staff surgeon at Kaiser, and just last night she spent an hour on the phone with my wife complaining about the election, after we called her about a minor repair. I kid you not.
Believe me, folks, DOCTORS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. If nobody in this country can afford healthcare, HOW WILL THEY GET PAID? Did that not occur to any of you? Maybe some of them are for tort reform because they feel they are getting squeezed by malpractice insurance rates, and may have supported Bush for that reason. But if the Shrub were to repay them for that by creating tens of millions of patients who have no means to pay their bills, they will realize VERY QUICKLY that they have been punk'd. Most MD's are not idiots. Their self-interest is firmly connected to the ability of the American public to afford health care.
Do you remember Hill & Knowlton? They were the big Repug PR firm, under Bush 41. They're the ones, for example, who set up that fake testimony to Congress about the baby incubator story before Gulf War 1.
Bogg's firm, Patton, Boggs, were just as ruthless. When Clinton came to power, they, essentially came to power.
Okay, I found one source, so far, the Washington Monthly
from 4/1/1995. It is a subscription sight, unfortunately.
The article is titled: Tommy Boggs and the death of health care reform.
Boggs has done many nasty things in his career. Just as many as the other side. It's how they do business in D.C.
Health care reform was dead before the first commercials aired. It was dead when those who were empaneled got on board. Don't forget, Bill & Hillary were new to D.C., and were treated as despised outsiders at the time by everyone, including the media.
pregnntpaws |
Sure it isn't Washington Weekley an old pre-freeper repug site?
OT-another mad cow case...
Do you remember Hill & Knowlton? They were the big Repug PR firm, under Bush 41. They're the ones, for example, who set up that fake testimony to Congress about the baby incubator story before Gulf War 1.
Bogg's firm, Patton, Boggs, were just as ruthless. When Clinton came to power, they, essentially came to power.
Okay, I found one source, so far, the Washington Monthly
from 4/1/1995. It is a subscription sight, unfortunately.
The article is titled: Tommy Boggs and the death of health care reform.
Boggs has done many nasty things in his career. Just as many as the other side. It's how they do business in D.C.
Health care reform was dead before the first commercials aired. It was dead when those who were empaneled got on board. Don't forget, Bill & Hillary were new to D.C., and were treated as despised outsiders at the time by everyone, including the media.
pregnntpaws |
Sure it isn't Washington Weekley an old pre-freeper repug site?
OT-another mad cow case...
'And so your friggin dermatologist knows more about what goes on in inner-city hospitals than my mother and her colleagues who have worked at several of them for decades? If you are going to criticize a system, put some real work into learning it first.'
You are saying that your frigging mother and her frigging colleagues don't treat (experiment on) the poor in her big city hospital???? You mean she charges the poor for her care even though they don't have any money? (Has already been extracted)? I don't know what the heck you are talking about. Obviously you have never been poor, never been sick without insurance and no hope of ever getting it, and obviously are about 13 in life experiences. So she doesn't charge for her services????? The hospital and doctors don't charge for their services or do they charge until the money is all gone????
Maybe your mother doesn't tell you everything. It is even possible that she has never been poor, never been without insurance and hope of ever getting any, has never been legally attacked by the billing departments of the local hospitals or multiple mysterious impossible to locate billing services that doctors employ, has never considered suicide because to have health care or take life saving drugs would impoverish the rest of the family.
You may think your mother and her friends walk on water or are nothing less than the self sacrificing new inactments of Mother Theresa. But what I have said is accurate whether you want to admit it or not.
Don't be a fool.
'And so your friggin dermatologist knows more about what goes on in inner-city hospitals than my mother and her colleagues who have worked at several of them for decades? If you are going to criticize a system, put some real work into learning it first.'
You are saying that your frigging mother and her frigging colleagues don't treat (experiment on) the poor in her big city hospital???? You mean she charges the poor for her care even though they don't have any money? (Has already been extracted)? I don't know what the heck you are talking about. Obviously you have never been poor, never been sick without insurance and no hope of ever getting it, and obviously are about 13 in life experiences. So she doesn't charge for her services????? The hospital and doctors don't charge for their services or do they charge until the money is all gone????
Maybe your mother doesn't tell you everything. It is even possible that she has never been poor, never been without insurance and hope of ever getting any, has never been legally attacked by the billing departments of the local hospitals or multiple mysterious impossible to locate billing services that doctors employ, has never considered suicide because to have health care or take life saving drugs would impoverish the rest of the family.
You may think your mother and her friends walk on water or are nothing less than the self sacrificing new inactments of Mother Theresa. But what I have said is accurate whether you want to admit it or not.
Don't be a fool.
Mr Murder, no, it was Washington Monthly.
Mr Murder, no, it was Washington Monthly.
I ordinarily just lurk here, but I feel compelled to make the following pedantic point in defense of physicians - the AMA is a *voluntary* organization. In 2001 (I can't be bothered to find 2004 stats right now), only 25 percent of practicing physicians were AMA members, and membership has been in decline for the past quarter century. The "voice of American medicine" is just loud, rather than truly representative. Progressive physicians' groups are just less well organized... And in the "good things about the AMA" category, since the 1920s the AMA has come around quite a bit on the whole health insurance front - they used to be vehemently opposed to *all* forms of third payer schemes. (Isn't the long view comforting, asks the historian?)
I ordinarily just lurk here, but I feel compelled to make the following pedantic point in defense of physicians - the AMA is a *voluntary* organization. In 2001 (I can't be bothered to find 2004 stats right now), only 25 percent of practicing physicians were AMA members, and membership has been in decline for the past quarter century. The "voice of American medicine" is just loud, rather than truly representative. Progressive physicians' groups are just less well organized... And in the "good things about the AMA" category, since the 1920s the AMA has come around quite a bit on the whole health insurance front - they used to be vehemently opposed to *all* forms of third payer schemes. (Isn't the long view comforting, asks the historian?)
...obviously are about 13 in life experiences.
Perhaps so, perhaps not.
You are saying that your frigging mother and her frigging colleagues don't treat (experiment on) the poor in her big city hospital
"Treat" does not equal "experiment on".
So she doesn't charge for her services????? The hospital and doctors don't charge for their services or do they charge until the money is all gone????
Do you charge for your services? The argument is about whether all physicians are corrupt and cynical enough to support political candidates who do not favor universal health care. You believe they are. I believe that some, if not most, aren't.
But what I have said is accurate whether you want to admit it or not.
I'll consider the accuracy of your statements when you can provide cold, hard, facts about (1) the voting patterns of inner-city physicians; (2) polls showing that most physicians don't want patients to have access to health care; (3) anything more than an anecdote about what your lunatic ex-dermatologist told you from what is clearly not first hand experience.
...obviously are about 13 in life experiences.
Perhaps so, perhaps not.
You are saying that your frigging mother and her frigging colleagues don't treat (experiment on) the poor in her big city hospital
"Treat" does not equal "experiment on".
So she doesn't charge for her services????? The hospital and doctors don't charge for their services or do they charge until the money is all gone????
Do you charge for your services? The argument is about whether all physicians are corrupt and cynical enough to support political candidates who do not favor universal health care. You believe they are. I believe that some, if not most, aren't.
But what I have said is accurate whether you want to admit it or not.
I'll consider the accuracy of your statements when you can provide cold, hard, facts about (1) the voting patterns of inner-city physicians; (2) polls showing that most physicians don't want patients to have access to health care; (3) anything more than an anecdote about what your lunatic ex-dermatologist told you from what is clearly not first hand experience.
blerb, Most physicians put themselves in a professional position in which they will only rarely if ever be asked to provide free care. I work with hospitals and can tell you that many physicians refuse, for instance, to take emegency room call. It's not a "direct" refusal to provide indigent care, but it's close enough. If a truly sick person came and asked for treatment most physicians would do what they can, but that's a far cry from going out of your way to affirmatively care for the indigent.
blerb, Most physicians put themselves in a professional position in which they will only rarely if ever be asked to provide free care. I work with hospitals and can tell you that many physicians refuse, for instance, to take emegency room call. It's not a "direct" refusal to provide indigent care, but it's close enough. If a truly sick person came and asked for treatment most physicians would do what they can, but that's a far cry from going out of your way to affirmatively care for the indigent.
If I may chime in, the doctor across the street had a "Bush Must Go, Healthcare for All" sign in the front yard.
If I may chime in, the doctor across the street had a "Bush Must Go, Healthcare for All" sign in the front yard.
I'm of two minds on this:
Either they included the health insurance provision to appear conciliatory when they eventually drop it in response to a public outcry; or
this yet another move to eviscerate the middle class.
Since it's impossible to gauge Bush's thought processes - does he have any? or is he merely practicing deception? - I think we have to look at recent developments, e.g. the retention of the neo-cons and yes-persons (This means you, Condi.) to determine the probability, thus far, is that he wants to take out the middle class.
See you all at the barricades.
I'm of two minds on this:
Either they included the health insurance provision to appear conciliatory when they eventually drop it in response to a public outcry; or
this yet another move to eviscerate the middle class.
Since it's impossible to gauge Bush's thought processes - does he have any? or is he merely practicing deception? - I think we have to look at recent developments, e.g. the retention of the neo-cons and yes-persons (This means you, Condi.) to determine the probability, thus far, is that he wants to take out the middle class.
See you all at the barricades.
GN: Love your ideas. I've dashed off a letter to the DNC based on your list. However, wasting money on full newspaper ads is a bad idea, primarily because only effete thinking people, such as myself, read such ads. A similar but more effective approach, without the cost, would be bombarding all local papers with letters to the editor.
They're are 2 ways for progressives to be effectice: 1) community based campaigns where we get the word out neighbor to neighbor. This entails using any social organizations in the area as a forum 2)getting on the media to attack the plan.
GN: Love your ideas. I've dashed off a letter to the DNC based on your list. However, wasting money on full newspaper ads is a bad idea, primarily because only effete thinking people, such as myself, read such ads. A similar but more effective approach, without the cost, would be bombarding all local papers with letters to the editor.
They're are 2 ways for progressives to be effectice: 1) community based campaigns where we get the word out neighbor to neighbor. This entails using any social organizations in the area as a forum 2)getting on the media to attack the plan.
wasting money on full newspaper ads is a bad idea, primarily because only effete thinking people, such as myself, read such ads. A similar but more effective approach, without the cost, would be bombarding all local papers with letters to the editor.
That's a good point. Atrios asked for a list a few weeks ago of small to mid-sized newspapers with rabid wingnut columnists. Perhaps it's time to put that list to work.
wasting money on full newspaper ads is a bad idea, primarily because only effete thinking people, such as myself, read such ads. A similar but more effective approach, without the cost, would be bombarding all local papers with letters to the editor.
That's a good point. Atrios asked for a list a few weeks ago of small to mid-sized newspapers with rabid wingnut columnists. Perhaps it's time to put that list to work.
To the English major who doesn't understand why employer provided insurance is a drag:
1. Employers who compete with international businesses are paying for an item employers in other countries don't have to. I just read an article in which the CEO of Ford noted that their Swedish Volvo division makes more than their American operations notwithstanding the higher wages -- dropping health costs from the mix more than makes up for the higher wages.
2. Employers have to factor in the largely uncontrollable cost of health insurance when they hire full-time workers, which tends to make them prefer, if possible, temporary and part-time employees. Likewise, employees are not as mobile because they are too afraid to lose their benefits.
3. The arranging for bit of insurance requires the investment of time and energy and adds to the employment costs of having to offer health insurance.
4. We have no prudent purchaser of health care services that anybody trusts. People are protected from the costs of their decisions (if you can call them that) and no one trusts insurers to curtail utilization, even as everyone recognizes that utilization is more or less out of control in certain ways. It's a black hole that is much more expensive than it needs to be.
I'm sure there are others but I hope that helps.
To the English major who doesn't understand why employer provided insurance is a drag:
1. Employers who compete with international businesses are paying for an item employers in other countries don't have to. I just read an article in which the CEO of Ford noted that their Swedish Volvo division makes more than their American operations notwithstanding the higher wages -- dropping health costs from the mix more than makes up for the higher wages.
2. Employers have to factor in the largely uncontrollable cost of health insurance when they hire full-time workers, which tends to make them prefer, if possible, temporary and part-time employees. Likewise, employees are not as mobile because they are too afraid to lose their benefits.
3. The arranging for bit of insurance requires the investment of time and energy and adds to the employment costs of having to offer health insurance.
4. We have no prudent purchaser of health care services that anybody trusts. People are protected from the costs of their decisions (if you can call them that) and no one trusts insurers to curtail utilization, even as everyone recognizes that utilization is more or less out of control in certain ways. It's a black hole that is much more expensive than it needs to be.
I'm sure there are others but I hope that helps.
I trust that everyone here who's holding all doctors personally responsible for not changing the AMA is similarly kicking the asses of all those evil nurses, lawyers, teachers, farmers, actors, firemen, illustrators, prostitutes, and grocers , sleazeballs everyone, who out of sheer greed and corruption have failed to make the Democratic Party leadership be progressive and effective. If you happen to know a good one, I know a greedy one too, so I am right. Who cares if they have jobs to do? Where's their civic honor? Democrats represent them, so obviously they support everything all Democrats are doing. I mean, in between posting comments here, I've sent at least ten E-mails to politicians telling them to be better. I bet those sleazeballs haven't even sent five E-mails.
And if heads of professional organizations aren't politically brave, it MUST be because the profession is rotten to the core. Couldn't have anything to do with the type of person who often ascends to the head of a professional organization, because as we all know, those are the best and bravest in any group.
And oh yeah, fuck the old people too - I mean look at the AARP.
I trust that everyone here who's holding all doctors personally responsible for not changing the AMA is similarly kicking the asses of all those evil nurses, lawyers, teachers, farmers, actors, firemen, illustrators, prostitutes, and grocers , sleazeballs everyone, who out of sheer greed and corruption have failed to make the Democratic Party leadership be progressive and effective. If you happen to know a good one, I know a greedy one too, so I am right. Who cares if they have jobs to do? Where's their civic honor? Democrats represent them, so obviously they support everything all Democrats are doing. I mean, in between posting comments here, I've sent at least ten E-mails to politicians telling them to be better. I bet those sleazeballs haven't even sent five E-mails.
And if heads of professional organizations aren't politically brave, it MUST be because the profession is rotten to the core. Couldn't have anything to do with the type of person who often ascends to the head of a professional organization, because as we all know, those are the best and bravest in any group.
And oh yeah, fuck the old people too - I mean look at the AARP.
I'll consider the accuracy of your statements when you can provide cold, hard, facts about (1) the voting patterns of inner-city physicians; (2) polls showing that most physicians don't want patients to have access to health care; (3) anything more than an anecdote about what your lunatic ex-dermatologist told you from what is clearly not first hand experience.
You win. This healthcare system is the best in the world, it doesn't experiment on the poor (all experiments are performed on cats a lab rats?), physicians always vote for the liberal candidate who advocates a national healthcare system which doesn't impoverish people as proven by the many Washington Medical lobbyists who constantly harrass the congress to enact one, you have a mother who has friends who don't charge for the healthcare services they perform, people aren't dying because they have no access to healthcare and can't afford medication if they did, I guess we don't have any argument. What the hell are we even on this list for since we don't have any problems?
I'll consider the accuracy of your statements when you can provide cold, hard, facts about (1) the voting patterns of inner-city physicians; (2) polls showing that most physicians don't want patients to have access to health care; (3) anything more than an anecdote about what your lunatic ex-dermatologist told you from what is clearly not first hand experience.
You win. This healthcare system is the best in the world, it doesn't experiment on the poor (all experiments are performed on cats a lab rats?), physicians always vote for the liberal candidate who advocates a national healthcare system which doesn't impoverish people as proven by the many Washington Medical lobbyists who constantly harrass the congress to enact one, you have a mother who has friends who don't charge for the healthcare services they perform, people aren't dying because they have no access to healthcare and can't afford medication if they did, I guess we don't have any argument. What the hell are we even on this list for since we don't have any problems?
Just to point it out, Swedish Volvo is subsidized indirectly by the Swedish health care system. Or to be more clear, that benefit is, as an inducement to attract workers, taken off the table because Sweden already provides that benefit to its people. Hence, why Volvo use wages as inducements, and also why they can provide higher wages.
Just to point it out, Swedish Volvo is subsidized indirectly by the Swedish health care system. Or to be more clear, that benefit is, as an inducement to attract workers, taken off the table because Sweden already provides that benefit to its people. Hence, why Volvo use wages as inducements, and also why they can provide higher wages.
You know, after reading Cass's comment of 12:25, I think it's kind of beside the point to argue any further. This is someone working out personal issues or just trolling, not someone interested in engaging with other people's reality. "Your mother can't be a good person if she is a doctor"... end of discussion, no?
You know, after reading Cass's comment of 12:25, I think it's kind of beside the point to argue any further. This is someone working out personal issues or just trolling, not someone interested in engaging with other people's reality. "Your mother can't be a good person if she is a doctor"... end of discussion, no?
Not exactly a doctor-lover here, but mrs. jeebs is a social worker and has been part of the medical community for years. Based on what I've learned about that system, I agree doctors are not main problem. blerb and no imagination are right.
Not exactly a doctor-lover here, but mrs. jeebs is a social worker and has been part of the medical community for years. Based on what I've learned about that system, I agree doctors are not main problem. blerb and no imagination are right.
how many doctors did YOU hear protesting ...his own ugly political ends?
For no reason, because the debate is pointless at this point, but did you go to the anti-war protests in NYC or DC? I forget all the names of the various physician/nurse groups, but they were not only protesting the war, but were demanding universal health care. So, I find it hard to believe that they are an evil monopolistic voting bloc.
how many doctors did YOU hear protesting ...his own ugly political ends?
For no reason, because the debate is pointless at this point, but did you go to the anti-war protests in NYC or DC? I forget all the names of the various physician/nurse groups, but they were not only protesting the war, but were demanding universal health care. So, I find it hard to believe that they are an evil monopolistic voting bloc.
Wow.
Well, sorry to blogwhore but y'all can feel good, at least someone got busted today. I am still ROFL at this......
Wow.
Well, sorry to blogwhore but y'all can feel good, at least someone got busted today. I am still ROFL at this......
Well, this IS an ownership society, isn't it? So we can all OWN our health insurance! This is good! Positive! No employers deciding FOR us which insurance plan we need...and on and on.
Don't bother with the Democrats. They aren't going to do SHIT.
Well, this IS an ownership society, isn't it? So we can all OWN our health insurance! This is good! Positive! No employers deciding FOR us which insurance plan we need...and on and on.
Don't bother with the Democrats. They aren't going to do SHIT.
I think the most interesting part is the proposal to eliminate the state and local tax deduction. The health care deduction proposal is sick, but to be expected from this crowd. But, as someone who used to make $100,000 and itemized my deductions, eliminating that deduction would have been a huge tax increase for me. In fact, under this proposal, a lot of people making between $100 and $200,000 could face a significant tax increase. Given that much of Bush's support came from people making $100,000 and over, I can't imagine this will go over with them very well. Unless, they actually own a business, the other tax decreases may not make up for the increase.
Would be nice to watch these rich folks get shafted too, though. But, height of irony that it seems Bush is now intent on leaving even the wealthy behind in favor of the super-wealthy!
I think the most interesting part is the proposal to eliminate the state and local tax deduction. The health care deduction proposal is sick, but to be expected from this crowd. But, as someone who used to make $100,000 and itemized my deductions, eliminating that deduction would have been a huge tax increase for me. In fact, under this proposal, a lot of people making between $100 and $200,000 could face a significant tax increase. Given that much of Bush's support came from people making $100,000 and over, I can't imagine this will go over with them very well. Unless, they actually own a business, the other tax decreases may not make up for the increase.
Would be nice to watch these rich folks get shafted too, though. But, height of irony that it seems Bush is now intent on leaving even the wealthy behind in favor of the super-wealthy!
The elimination of the state & local income tax deduction and (I bet this is in the mix) the elimination of the mortgage interest deduction would be a stake in the heart of middle-class homeownership, which is The American Dream. Who *are* these people?!?!
The Realtors (trademark) and mortgage bankers ought to get after these bastards big time. They're trying to kill their businesses too.
The elimination of the state & local income tax deduction and (I bet this is in the mix) the elimination of the mortgage interest deduction would be a stake in the heart of middle-class homeownership, which is The American Dream. Who *are* these people?!?!
The Realtors (trademark) and mortgage bankers ought to get after these bastards big time. They're trying to kill their businesses too.
Maybe it's time to count the failures of Clinton's promise and move forward - he championed health care and was cheered everywhere he went in '92 when he promised he'd fix it. Took one failed swipe at it and never took it on again -
It's not enough to be good at getting elected - A(nybody)B(ut)H(illary) '08!
Maybe it's time to count the failures of Clinton's promise and move forward - he championed health care and was cheered everywhere he went in '92 when he promised he'd fix it. Took one failed swipe at it and never took it on again -
It's not enough to be good at getting elected - A(nybody)B(ut)H(illary) '08!
Perhaps someone smarter than me, particularly with respect to corporate and tax law, can tell me if this scenario is valid of full of cheese:
Suppose a corporation creates a new class of stock, let's call it "W," that's only offered as compensation to executives. Instead of a measly pennies per share in dividends, class W stock pays tens, or perhaps hundreds, of thousands of dollars per share. Executives holding Class W stock are paid only token cash compensation of, say, $1 per year.
Is this scenario possible? If so, would it not present, under these proposed tax changes, a whole new way for yet another group of plutocrats to escape taxation?
Jes wonderin.
Perhaps someone smarter than me, particularly with respect to corporate and tax law, can tell me if this scenario is valid of full of cheese:
Suppose a corporation creates a new class of stock, let's call it "W," that's only offered as compensation to executives. Instead of a measly pennies per share in dividends, class W stock pays tens, or perhaps hundreds, of thousands of dollars per share. Executives holding Class W stock are paid only token cash compensation of, say, $1 per year.
Is this scenario possible? If so, would it not present, under these proposed tax changes, a whole new way for yet another group of plutocrats to escape taxation?
Jes wonderin.
caunuckistani, Clinton could have screamed from the mountaintops about health care and still nothing would have happened- by 94' Republicans had a lock on Congress, so any proposals could be easily blocked, would not even make it to the floor for debate.
caunuckistani, Clinton could have screamed from the mountaintops about health care and still nothing would have happened- by 94' Republicans had a lock on Congress, so any proposals could be easily blocked, would not even make it to the floor for debate.
Would be nice to watch these rich folks get shafted too, though. But, height of irony that it seems Bush is now intent on leaving even the wealthy behind in favor of the super-wealthy!
The plan is not favor a group by wealth (though that's part of the effect). Its to get workers -- no matter how rich or poor -- to pay the bill for capitalists. It is pure class warfare via a "Work Tax" to replace the income tax.
Would be nice to watch these rich folks get shafted too, though. But, height of irony that it seems Bush is now intent on leaving even the wealthy behind in favor of the super-wealthy!
The plan is not favor a group by wealth (though that's part of the effect). Its to get workers -- no matter how rich or poor -- to pay the bill for capitalists. It is pure class warfare via a "Work Tax" to replace the income tax.
Why is insurance the metric by which we ask "do people have access to health care"? 280 million americans are uninsured when it comes to food, yet we don't cry about it. The point is that the tax exemption for insurance is a bad deal because it increases the costs of health care generally, and screws younger workers who don't need, but pay for, the comprehensive health insurance that usually accompanies work.
Why is insurance the metric by which we ask "do people have access to health care"? 280 million americans are uninsured when it comes to food, yet we don't cry about it. The point is that the tax exemption for insurance is a bad deal because it increases the costs of health care generally, and screws younger workers who don't need, but pay for, the comprehensive health insurance that usually accompanies work.
The point is that the tax exemption for insurance is a bad deal because it increases the costs of health care generally, and screws younger workers who don't need, but pay for, the comprehensive health insurance that usually accompanies work
Don't need it until they need it? Or don't need it in the sense that, they have no kids, why should they pay for public schools and colleges?
Or have no car, why should they pay for highways and roadways?
A curious kind of reasoning, this "I don't use it right now, I'm getting screwed by being asked to contribute to the general welfare."
The point is that the tax exemption for insurance is a bad deal because it increases the costs of health care generally, and screws younger workers who don't need, but pay for, the comprehensive health insurance that usually accompanies work
Don't need it until they need it? Or don't need it in the sense that, they have no kids, why should they pay for public schools and colleges?
Or have no car, why should they pay for highways and roadways?
A curious kind of reasoning, this "I don't use it right now, I'm getting screwed by being asked to contribute to the general welfare."
This sounds like just one of the many steps in the old "starve the beast" program.
This sounds like just one of the many steps in the old "starve the beast" program.
Young people don't need insurance until they get hit by an uninsured motorist. Or decide to have a baby who turns out to be sick. Or whatever. There are reasons why employer provided insurance is a bad deal, and maybe even the tax exemption is a bad deal, but saving young or other generally healthy people from having to subsidize the cost of care to the sick and old isn't it. That's what insurance is.
And I didn't mean to malign all doctors, I do think that generationally, doctors are changing their views on universal access to health care, but I don't see them in the vanguard for advancing change, which is too bad, because they would have a particularly credible voice if they chose to use it.
Young people don't need insurance until they get hit by an uninsured motorist. Or decide to have a baby who turns out to be sick. Or whatever. There are reasons why employer provided insurance is a bad deal, and maybe even the tax exemption is a bad deal, but saving young or other generally healthy people from having to subsidize the cost of care to the sick and old isn't it. That's what insurance is.
And I didn't mean to malign all doctors, I do think that generationally, doctors are changing their views on universal access to health care, but I don't see them in the vanguard for advancing change, which is too bad, because they would have a particularly credible voice if they chose to use it.
You know. . . I took a plane trip recently. . . I laughed at the safty precedure card which told you to "brace yourself" in the event of the plane crashing. After all, it wouldn't matter how hard you braced yourself if you were going to be disintegrated.
That's America.
You know. . . I took a plane trip recently. . . I laughed at the safty precedure card which told you to "brace yourself" in the event of the plane crashing. After all, it wouldn't matter how hard you braced yourself if you were going to be disintegrated.
That's America.
DC
"...screws younger workers who don't need, but pay for, the comprehensive health insurance that usually accompanies work."
I paid into a group health insurance plan for years beginning when I was young and never once thought about how I might be subsidizing others. (I happen, thank God, to be healthy.) Maybe I was. So what?
That's the whole idea of a risk pool.
This Darwinian overlay to every issue is very troublesome. Believe me, you don't want to be without insurance if you should suffer a misfortune, or have the bad sense to get old.
DC
"...screws younger workers who don't need, but pay for, the comprehensive health insurance that usually accompanies work."
I paid into a group health insurance plan for years beginning when I was young and never once thought about how I might be subsidizing others. (I happen, thank God, to be healthy.) Maybe I was. So what?
That's the whole idea of a risk pool.
This Darwinian overlay to every issue is very troublesome. Believe me, you don't want to be without insurance if you should suffer a misfortune, or have the bad sense to get old.
Sue -- just wanted to say that while I love Boondocks it was incredibly unfair this morning. Why did he single out St. Louis -- we are true Blue -- its the rest of the friggin state that took us Red. (as usual)
Sue -- just wanted to say that while I love Boondocks it was incredibly unfair this morning. Why did he single out St. Louis -- we are true Blue -- its the rest of the friggin state that took us Red. (as usual)
Cosmic Rays,
That was the point I was making earlier about social insurance. Hey, if you've just gotten done reading some nice Ayn Rand, health insurance sucks. But just wait 'til you've had a heart attack before making your judgment.
Cosmic Rays,
That was the point I was making earlier about social insurance. Hey, if you've just gotten done reading some nice Ayn Rand, health insurance sucks. But just wait 'til you've had a heart attack before making your judgment.
Can we please not get suckered in *again* by the Bushie's trick of throwing pie at us just so we'll be grateful when they squirt us with seltzer?
If we follow past patterns, we'll spend the next weeks yammering ad nauseum about how catastrophic these policies would be, analyzing them, drumming up facts and figures, etc.
Then the bushies come out with a different policy thats only slightly less extreme, and it sucks all the wind out of our sails.
Let's do something different this time. Lets start talking about some tax simplification proposals that really *are* moderate, revenue neutral, etc. Then the general public has some real opportunity to compare policies, instead of between ultra-outrageous and simply nowhere-close-to-fair.
Can we please not get suckered in *again* by the Bushie's trick of throwing pie at us just so we'll be grateful when they squirt us with seltzer?
If we follow past patterns, we'll spend the next weeks yammering ad nauseum about how catastrophic these policies would be, analyzing them, drumming up facts and figures, etc.
Then the bushies come out with a different policy thats only slightly less extreme, and it sucks all the wind out of our sails.
Let's do something different this time. Lets start talking about some tax simplification proposals that really *are* moderate, revenue neutral, etc. Then the general public has some real opportunity to compare policies, instead of between ultra-outrageous and simply nowhere-close-to-fair.
It's happening already! Bush II, part II, is going to bring in civilization/modernity/socialism the same way Hoover et al brought in the New Deal!!! Dumping what little health care we pretended to in the face of the oncoming inevitable next plague! Are those torches we smell?
It's happening already! Bush II, part II, is going to bring in civilization/modernity/socialism the same way Hoover et al brought in the New Deal!!! Dumping what little health care we pretended to in the face of the oncoming inevitable next plague! Are those torches we smell?
Wasn't it a form of "ownership society" that got us into the Civil War?
Wasn't it a form of "ownership society" that got us into the Civil War?
"A curious kind of reasoning, this 'I don't use it right now, I'm getting screwed by being asked to contribute to the general welfare.'"
Robert M. Jeffers 11.18.04 - 2:16 pm
There seems to be two divergent mindsets:
1) those with a long-range (tedious perhaps) view that they're willing to share in a common obligation to build and maintain infrastructure and advance the security of the community for generations to come, and
2) those that share a 'gimme mine now' (more immediate gratification) rugged individualist attitude assuming the infrastructure will take care of itself (perhaps via the "invisible hand") and that they'll never ever need a community-based safety net. Also assuming that their parents, children, grandchildren, great grandchildren will also be so fortunate.
One of the things that built the nation is the shared sense of obligation (the social contract) to the long-term general welfare and survival of it's people - enshrined if I'm not wrong in the founding documents and Enlightenment thinking.
Paradoxically, short-term interests and greed seems to have helped, at least in some measure. It seems like capitalism has been able to flourish quite well under liberal Enlightenment idealogy. But it seems to me that it was only by constraining the "invisible hand" via regulation that the middle class was able to emerge and grow to what we enjoy today.
If I had to choose the glue that will hold the nation together for the next 200-250 years I'd adopt the long-term view of the social contract with some balanced restraint of the "invisible hand" of capitalism. All the while being free to become rich and powerful through some combination of labor, entrepreneurship, investment, and the inevitable luck factor.
Of course I could be wrong about this - I'm really just a Joe Six Pack trying to keep his head above water and hoping to retire with, at a minimum, some dignity all the while living in a "red state" that once elected a dead guy as governor so as to avoid putting a very strange man into another elected position.
Whew, time to break out the six pack.
"A curious kind of reasoning, this 'I don't use it right now, I'm getting screwed by being asked to contribute to the general welfare.'"
Robert M. Jeffers 11.18.04 - 2:16 pm
There seems to be two divergent mindsets:
1) those with a long-range (tedious perhaps) view that they're willing to share in a common obligation to build and maintain infrastructure and advance the security of the community for generations to come, and
2) those that share a 'gimme mine now' (more immediate gratification) rugged individualist attitude assuming the infrastructure will take care of itself (perhaps via the "invisible hand") and that they'll never ever need a community-based safety net. Also assuming that their parents, children, grandchildren, great grandchildren will also be so fortunate.
One of the things that built the nation is the shared sense of obligation (the social contract) to the long-term general welfare and survival of it's people - enshrined if I'm not wrong in the founding documents and Enlightenment thinking.
Paradoxically, short-term interests and greed seems to have helped, at least in some measure. It seems like capitalism has been able to flourish quite well under liberal Enlightenment idealogy. But it seems to me that it was only by constraining the "invisible hand" via regulation that the middle class was able to emerge and grow to what we enjoy today.
If I had to choose the glue that will hold the nation together for the next 200-250 years I'd adopt the long-term view of the social contract with some balanced restraint of the "invisible hand" of capitalism. All the while being free to become rich and powerful through some combination of labor, entrepreneurship, investment, and the inevitable luck factor.
Of course I could be wrong about this - I'm really just a Joe Six Pack trying to keep his head above water and hoping to retire with, at a minimum, some dignity all the while living in a "red state" that once elected a dead guy as governor so as to avoid putting a very strange man into another elected position.
Whew, time to break out the six pack.
If we follow past patterns, we'll spend the next weeks yammering ad nauseum about how catastrophic these policies would be, analyzing them, drumming up facts and figures, etc.
Then the bushies come out with a different policy thats only slightly less extreme, and it sucks all the wind out of our sails.
so true - the proposal to eliminate health care premium deductions is the idea that is planned to be sacrificed.
While we are all up in arms, arguing about the impact of this proposal...
......the elimination of state/property tax deductions will go through..
And this is the goal, not just to punish the Blue Sates, but to make people turn to their local & state governments, the people they know and deal with, and demand things be cut - like public school funding, medicaid, welfare.
If we follow past patterns, we'll spend the next weeks yammering ad nauseum about how catastrophic these policies would be, analyzing them, drumming up facts and figures, etc.
Then the bushies come out with a different policy thats only slightly less extreme, and it sucks all the wind out of our sails.
so true - the proposal to eliminate health care premium deductions is the idea that is planned to be sacrificed.
While we are all up in arms, arguing about the impact of this proposal...
......the elimination of state/property tax deductions will go through..
And this is the goal, not just to punish the Blue Sates, but to make people turn to their local & state governments, the people they know and deal with, and demand things be cut - like public school funding, medicaid, welfare.
I *wish* Bush was taking us back to the 13th Century.
Anyone else for single-combat with aWol?
I *wish* Bush was taking us back to the 13th Century.
Anyone else for single-combat with aWol?
Smitty W
Yeah, I'm in my 50s and knew people back when who were very into Rand. It appeals to the adolescent mindset, which many people in this culture never outgrow. They morph from Rand-ians to bitter old windbags when they discover at last that they're not invincible.
Smitty W
Yeah, I'm in my 50s and knew people back when who were very into Rand. It appeals to the adolescent mindset, which many people in this culture never outgrow. They morph from Rand-ians to bitter old windbags when they discover at last that they're not invincible.
I had a friend (an MIT graduate) who idolized Rand until he was struck with a particularly vicious case of mono and was hospitalized for the better part of a year and nearly died. He was, say, 26 at the time. He was also attending a state university for graduate school. Rand is for people living in a dreamworld. The sooner reality intrudes the better.
I had a friend (an MIT graduate) who idolized Rand until he was struck with a particularly vicious case of mono and was hospitalized for the better part of a year and nearly died. He was, say, 26 at the time. He was also attending a state university for graduate school. Rand is for people living in a dreamworld. The sooner reality intrudes the better.
......the elimination of state/property tax deductions will go through..- blueinaredstate
I tend to think that the elimination of state/local tax deductions is more the red herring than the health insurance deductable- easy solution for businesses is to not provide the benefit, or shift the tax burden on to the employee. Removing the state/local tax deduction would have small businesses and homeowners up in arms, so I think it's the bait to pass a further tax break on unearned income.
......the elimination of state/property tax deductions will go through..- blueinaredstate
I tend to think that the elimination of state/local tax deductions is more the red herring than the health insurance deductable- easy solution for businesses is to not provide the benefit, or shift the tax burden on to the employee. Removing the state/local tax deduction would have small businesses and homeowners up in arms, so I think it's the bait to pass a further tax break on unearned income.
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You know, after reading Cass's comment of 12:25, I think it's kind of beside the point to argue any further. This is someone working out personal issues or just trolling, not someone interested in engaging with other people's reality. "Your mother can't be a good person if she is a doctor"... end of discussion, no?
You should't put words into other people's mouths. I didn't say her mother wasn't a good person, etc. She's the one who started calling names. She and perhaps you are the ones not in reality.
I am always amazed at how much people don't have any correct information about what happens to people when they cannot get health insurance. They seem to think that anybody can get it and all they have to do is ring up Aetna or Blue Cross. Not so.
The reason the medical system is a nightmare is because not enough people are well informed enough about the consequences of losing their insurance (lose their job)(have pre exisiting conditions)(get cancelled) and have never been sick and dealt with it. Not in reality!! You had better get yourselves informed about this healthcare mess or a truck may hit you
(metaphorically) in the near future. If more people knew we would have a great medical system--like the one that John Kerry was hoping to give us. Personally I think a vote for the Repugs this time was a crime against the people. How can anybody vote for the party which doesn't want children to have any healthcare as was exemplified by the cutting of the Child's Healthcare program. The whole country would have access to insurance if Kerry had won. All I can figure is that we are surrounded by sadists and idiots.
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You know, after reading Cass's comment of 12:25, I think it's kind of beside the point to argue any further. This is someone working out personal issues or just trolling, not someone interested in engaging with other people's reality. "Your mother can't be a good person if she is a doctor"... end of discussion, no?
You should't put words into other people's mouths. I didn't say her mother wasn't a good person, etc. She's the one who started calling names. She and perhaps you are the ones not in reality.
I am always amazed at how much people don't have any correct information about what happens to people when they cannot get health insurance. They seem to think that anybody can get it and all they have to do is ring up Aetna or Blue Cross. Not so.
The reason the medical system is a nightmare is because not enough people are well informed enough about the consequences of losing their insurance (lose their job)(have pre exisiting conditions)(get cancelled) and have never been sick and dealt with it. Not in reality!! You had better get yourselves informed about this healthcare mess or a truck may hit you
(metaphorically) in the near future. If more people knew we would have a great medical system--like the one that John Kerry was hoping to give us. Personally I think a vote for the Repugs this time was a crime against the people. How can anybody vote for the party which doesn't want children to have any healthcare as was exemplified by the cutting of the Child's Healthcare program. The whole country would have access to insurance if Kerry had won. All I can figure is that we are surrounded by sadists and idiots.
"promote growth by cutting taxes on investment."
I LOVE this! The assumption is that, when you buy a stock, you are investing in growth. What a laugh! The only time the money used to buy a stock actually goes to the company, and can therefore be used for growth, is when there is an Initial Public Offering. After that you're buying a piece of the company, but the money you spend buying a stock on the secondary market does nothing, absolutely NOTHING for the growth of the company. The money goes to the previous owner of the stock,pure and simple (with a little on the side to the broker).
Steve
"promote growth by cutting taxes on investment."
I LOVE this! The assumption is that, when you buy a stock, you are investing in growth. What a laugh! The only time the money used to buy a stock actually goes to the company, and can therefore be used for growth, is when there is an Initial Public Offering. After that you're buying a piece of the company, but the money you spend buying a stock on the secondary market does nothing, absolutely NOTHING for the growth of the company. The money goes to the previous owner of the stock,pure and simple (with a little on the side to the broker).
Steve
Steve, unfortunately, most people don't understand that. Maybe taking economics in High school should be mandatory.
Steve, unfortunately, most people don't understand that. Maybe taking economics in High school should be mandatory.
Please, please, please!
We NEED a healthcare issue blog.
The problem is finding people who are conversant enough in it to blog regularly about it.
I've been diligently trying to get one started at Hope for Healthcare, but it's really hard to find folks to provide content.
I'm begging here: If you know this issue, please come write for us. If you know someone who knows this issue, please have them come write for us.
We're providing a free platform for your thoughts. Take advantage of it.
Contact me at:
pants -at- goodshow -dot- net
Please, please, please!
We NEED a healthcare issue blog.
The problem is finding people who are conversant enough in it to blog regularly about it.
I've been diligently trying to get one started at Hope for Healthcare, but it's really hard to find folks to provide content.
I'm begging here: If you know this issue, please come write for us. If you know someone who knows this issue, please have them come write for us.
We're providing a free platform for your thoughts. Take advantage of it.
Contact me at:
pants -at- goodshow -dot- net
I wonder if we americans that want health insruance can buy into canadas policy?
I wonder if we americans that want health insruance can buy into canadas policy?
And exactly the same tax plans are now being spouted in Australia - and still being described as 'tax reform' by most MSM. Your most loyal vassal in more ways than one ..
And exactly the same tax plans are now being spouted in Australia - and still being described as 'tax reform' by most MSM. Your most loyal vassal in more ways than one ..
Bush,
repukelicans,
dumbass Americans who vote for Bush and repukelicans and then get f'ed up the ass by the very sickos they voted for,
its so sick, all you can do is laugh:
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
.
Bush,
repukelicans,
dumbass Americans who vote for Bush and repukelicans and then get f'ed up the ass by the very sickos they voted for,
its so sick, all you can do is laugh:
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
.
I'm no economist, Atrios. Who does this even help?
I'm no economist either, but I know if Bush is proposing it, then it ain't meant to help me.
It's meant to help someone in a much higher tax bracket than mine.
I'm no economist, Atrios. Who does this even help?
I'm no economist either, but I know if Bush is proposing it, then it ain't meant to help me.
It's meant to help someone in a much higher tax bracket than mine.
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.
And by God, Bush wants us all to be FREE.
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.
And by God, Bush wants us all to be FREE.
Ending the state tax exemption will certainly hurt New Yorkers - but then we did not vote for him. Anybody know how tightly state taxes and blueness correlate?
Ending the state tax exemption will certainly hurt New Yorkers - but then we did not vote for him. Anybody know how tightly state taxes and blueness correlate?
Great
Great
TTest
BTest
Very fine!!!
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