I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
I think we should ask for the opinion of
Frist
I think we should ask for the opinion of
Frist
Atrios, why dont you run in a primary against a surrender monkey dem for the House. These dems need the free market to light a fire under their butts.
Atrios, why dont you run in a primary against a surrender monkey dem for the House. These dems need the free market to light a fire under their butts.
And if these lifetime, non-cancellable contracts were with the government...?
And if these lifetime, non-cancellable contracts were with the government...?
I second whoever said that we should have had this discussion during the campaign and whoever said there is no chance of any kind of reform in the next four years.
But this issue isn't going to go away, so these posts most certainly will lead to a better understanding.
Knowledge is power.
I second whoever said that we should have had this discussion during the campaign and whoever said there is no chance of any kind of reform in the next four years.
But this issue isn't going to go away, so these posts most certainly will lead to a better understanding.
Knowledge is power.
We're all going to die, at least if you have insurance, you'll die on a mattress.
Chris Rock
We're all going to die, at least if you have insurance, you'll die on a mattress.
Chris Rock
WT,
you know the article you linked to in the previous thread about breast feeding as a gateway, is from a parody site?
WT,
you know the article you linked to in the previous thread about breast feeding as a gateway, is from a parody site?
Conservatives who say that people who don't have money for medical care should die are what are called social darwinists. Are these the saem people trying to teach Christianity and creationism in the classroom?
As for the rest, //www.ajj.com/services/pblshng/nej/article1.htm
Conservatives who say that people who don't have money for medical care should die are what are called social darwinists. Are these the saem people trying to teach Christianity and creationism in the classroom?
As for the rest, //www.ajj.com/services/pblshng/nej/article1.htm
My conservatarian friends will say, so what? If you didn't save enough money in anticipation of this, then tough titties.
I find absolutely NO irony in the fact that this measure will be pushed by arrogant gasbags who espouse "personal responsibility" while spending our money and handing themselves raises. < / sarcasm >
American Drama
Reality-based Red-state Refugee
My conservatarian friends will say, so what? If you didn't save enough money in anticipation of this, then tough titties.
I find absolutely NO irony in the fact that this measure will be pushed by arrogant gasbags who espouse "personal responsibility" while spending our money and handing themselves raises. < / sarcasm >
American Drama
Reality-based Red-state Refugee
What about the argument that health insurance itself drives up the cost of health care? If there wasn't health insurance to pay for outrageous medical costs, medical costs would have to come down to meet the market's ability to bear the burden.
Free Market, Baby!
What about the argument that health insurance itself drives up the cost of health care? If there wasn't health insurance to pay for outrageous medical costs, medical costs would have to come down to meet the market's ability to bear the burden.
Free Market, Baby!
I would ask if anyone knows with more certitude how the German health insurance system works. My recollection from ten years ago is this:
Each year a board made up of representatives from the insurance industry, the unions, and the medical society determines what the minimum provision of a health insurance policy will be (e.g., will pay for x days of outpatient, x days of inpatient, etc). They also determine what the cost will be per person, on a sliding scale based on age.
The cost of that payment is split three ways between the individual, the employer, and the government from tax revenues. The proportions vary based on the person's income: those who earn less pay less from their pockets; those who earn more pay more. Payment of insurance premium can be a bennie to attract needed workers.
Finally, the insurance companies then can offer to the individual insured each year for the person to "buy" their insurance. Here's the good part: the incentive comes in because the insurance companies offer additional benefits over the government minimums. Thus, for example, if Berlin Insurance wants to attract people to sign up with them, they might offer the minums plus dental coverage, or eye care 9actually these are already included, but you get the idea). Frankfurt Insurance might offer the same PLUS massage therapy and a free toaster.
The interesting thing about this scheme is that it was designed by the insurance companies after WW II and is managed by them. It benefits the companies; the Germans have excellent health care; everyone wins. It's not "single payer" in the sense that the money comes from the Government. It's paid to the Insurance Administration (an independent agency, as I mentioned above) and administered by the three-part board.
Maybe this makes too much sense.
I would ask if anyone knows with more certitude how the German health insurance system works. My recollection from ten years ago is this:
Each year a board made up of representatives from the insurance industry, the unions, and the medical society determines what the minimum provision of a health insurance policy will be (e.g., will pay for x days of outpatient, x days of inpatient, etc). They also determine what the cost will be per person, on a sliding scale based on age.
The cost of that payment is split three ways between the individual, the employer, and the government from tax revenues. The proportions vary based on the person's income: those who earn less pay less from their pockets; those who earn more pay more. Payment of insurance premium can be a bennie to attract needed workers.
Finally, the insurance companies then can offer to the individual insured each year for the person to "buy" their insurance. Here's the good part: the incentive comes in because the insurance companies offer additional benefits over the government minimums. Thus, for example, if Berlin Insurance wants to attract people to sign up with them, they might offer the minums plus dental coverage, or eye care 9actually these are already included, but you get the idea). Frankfurt Insurance might offer the same PLUS massage therapy and a free toaster.
The interesting thing about this scheme is that it was designed by the insurance companies after WW II and is managed by them. It benefits the companies; the Germans have excellent health care; everyone wins. It's not "single payer" in the sense that the money comes from the Government. It's paid to the Insurance Administration (an independent agency, as I mentioned above) and administered by the three-part board.
Maybe this makes too much sense.
The problem in making a contract like the one about saving money for your old age health care needs that Atrios mentioned is exactly why the health care of the elderly is usually the first one to be provided by the government. That way the contract cannot be broken very easily, though as we can see in this country, Republicans are willing to break any contract. Which is funny, considering how they love contracts.
The problem in making a contract like the one about saving money for your old age health care needs that Atrios mentioned is exactly why the health care of the elderly is usually the first one to be provided by the government. That way the contract cannot be broken very easily, though as we can see in this country, Republicans are willing to break any contract. Which is funny, considering how they love contracts.
Stephen - Actually, this sounds like a reasonable model, especially since it does not put the insurance industry out of business. And it includes market incentives - the companies decide what they will use to try to persuade people to buy the supplemental.
Stephen - Actually, this sounds like a reasonable model, especially since it does not put the insurance industry out of business. And it includes market incentives - the companies decide what they will use to try to persuade people to buy the supplemental.
I'm naive: what are the profit margins of insurance companies? I've known a few people who work as customer service reps for them, and frankly, every single one of them is paid jack shit.
High stress job, constantly dealing with consternation and people trying to fuck with the system, and these people don't make squat.
Just curious.
I'm naive: what are the profit margins of insurance companies? I've known a few people who work as customer service reps for them, and frankly, every single one of them is paid jack shit.
High stress job, constantly dealing with consternation and people trying to fuck with the system, and these people don't make squat.
Just curious.
I'm for letting people die, as long as their conservatarian fuckwits who quite frankly spent most of their lives consuming oxygen and returning nothing but shit back to the world.
Oh, and the State gets all their inherited from their robber baron ancestors money, too.
I'm for letting people die, as long as their conservatarian fuckwits who quite frankly spent most of their lives consuming oxygen and returning nothing but shit back to the world.
Oh, and the State gets all their inherited from their robber baron ancestors money, too.
Republicans are willing to break any contract. Which is funny, considering how they love contracts.
Echidne
Yeah, those Republicans sure have that consistancy thing down pat.
Republicans are willing to break any contract. Which is funny, considering how they love contracts.
Echidne
Yeah, those Republicans sure have that consistancy thing down pat.
...then they are budgeted.
Which also allows for unpredicted glitches (e.g., the people who bought lifetime insurance in 1968-70 when the premia did not account for the post-1981 skewing of the tables by AIDS.
The issue--as with SS--is that premia are charged based on an expected rate of return on the investment. (The company gets 50X dollars for something with a slightly-less-than-2% likelihood of happening; at the end of the "normal" year, they have a small amount of profit--AND the returns on the investment of having held the premia received in January until it was paid to a claimant in October.
The current CF of health care premia is largely due to the combination of unrealistic expectations of returns and the general lethargy of the market over the past four years producing a shortfall.
...then they are budgeted.
Which also allows for unpredicted glitches (e.g., the people who bought lifetime insurance in 1968-70 when the premia did not account for the post-1981 skewing of the tables by AIDS.
The issue--as with SS--is that premia are charged based on an expected rate of return on the investment. (The company gets 50X dollars for something with a slightly-less-than-2% likelihood of happening; at the end of the "normal" year, they have a small amount of profit--AND the returns on the investment of having held the premia received in January until it was paid to a claimant in October.
The current CF of health care premia is largely due to the combination of unrealistic expectations of returns and the general lethargy of the market over the past four years producing a shortfall.
Echidne - yeah, I agree. I love the game the Repugs talk and the game the liberals talk. When it all comes down to it, there isn't very much difference.
Repugs will not honor a contract they don't like and liberals don't want to help people who didn't vote the way they wanted.
Nice country we are living in.
Echidne - yeah, I agree. I love the game the Repugs talk and the game the liberals talk. When it all comes down to it, there isn't very much difference.
Repugs will not honor a contract they don't like and liberals don't want to help people who didn't vote the way they wanted.
Nice country we are living in.
And if these lifetime, non-cancellable contracts were with the government...?
We're way ahead of you, watertiger. If the "long-term contract arrangements" were with the Guvmint, collection of "premiums" could be enforced through the tax system, the "premiums" could be adjusted according to ability to pay, and like Social Security, the system could be kept stable for generations.
Not only that, but you gain economies of scale: everyone would be in the Guvmint's risk pool; no opportunites for competitors to "cherry-pick" the healthiest customers. National standardization would cut administrative overhead, just as it has done for Social Security and Medicare. And of course, a Guvmint monopoly wouldn't need to spend money on advertising or marketing.
But of course, we 'Merkins can't expect our Guvmint to do anything like that, because, even though all the doctors and hospitals would be private enterprises, it'd be (turn up the volume now) "Socialized Medicine!" And we all know we just can't have that.
And if these lifetime, non-cancellable contracts were with the government...?
We're way ahead of you, watertiger. If the "long-term contract arrangements" were with the Guvmint, collection of "premiums" could be enforced through the tax system, the "premiums" could be adjusted according to ability to pay, and like Social Security, the system could be kept stable for generations.
Not only that, but you gain economies of scale: everyone would be in the Guvmint's risk pool; no opportunites for competitors to "cherry-pick" the healthiest customers. National standardization would cut administrative overhead, just as it has done for Social Security and Medicare. And of course, a Guvmint monopoly wouldn't need to spend money on advertising or marketing.
But of course, we 'Merkins can't expect our Guvmint to do anything like that, because, even though all the doctors and hospitals would be private enterprises, it'd be (turn up the volume now) "Socialized Medicine!" And we all know we just can't have that.
I don't understand why this issue is so difficult in America. Many other countries manage to provide first-class health care for their citizens without going bankrupt. Not rocket science.
I don't understand why this issue is so difficult in America. Many other countries manage to provide first-class health care for their citizens without going bankrupt. Not rocket science.
Insurance isn't just about dying; it's also for disability. Anyone who's ever had a family member go through permanent or temporary disability is thankful for insurance.
Insurance isn't just about dying; it's also for disability. Anyone who's ever had a family member go through permanent or temporary disability is thankful for insurance.
Cool. A multi-part story, with cliffhangers.
Cool. A multi-part story, with cliffhangers.
Kent,
You talkin' to me? I didn't link the article; I think it was bebe rebozo.
Kent,
You talkin' to me? I didn't link the article; I think it was bebe rebozo.
A further wrinkle of the broader economic kind: with the US economy as it is at the moment (in a slowdown as far as the modest earners are concerned, but with interest rates still pretty low) it's going to be pretty difficult to put enough away in some form of savings that will guarantee enough income to cover health insurance costs as per the conservatarians. Bearing in mind that there are all these other demands on savings: education, non-health-related accident insurance, etc., etc...
A further wrinkle of the broader economic kind: with the US economy as it is at the moment (in a slowdown as far as the modest earners are concerned, but with interest rates still pretty low) it's going to be pretty difficult to put enough away in some form of savings that will guarantee enough income to cover health insurance costs as per the conservatarians. Bearing in mind that there are all these other demands on savings: education, non-health-related accident insurance, etc., etc...
Mathwiz,
Dang. Couldn't hurt to give it a shot, though.
Mathwiz,
Dang. Couldn't hurt to give it a shot, though.
I don't understand why this issue is so difficult in America.
I think it's some of that "fuck you" attitude that is so prevalent here in the USA. It's so shortsighted.
I don't understand why this issue is so difficult in America.
I think it's some of that "fuck you" attitude that is so prevalent here in the USA. It's so shortsighted.
There are so many different models to look at from other countries, like the German model that was mentioned, the French model, the Italian, the U.K., the Canadian, the Scandinavian and so on. But Americans tend to lump these all together as "socialized" medicine which they are not, not even in the U.K. which has a private sector of about ten percent of the total health care.
Some countries have hospitals which are free at the point of care and are funded from tax money, combined with government sponsored health insurance for primary care, for example. It would be possible to look at all these different systems and to learn what each feature causes. But my experience is that Americans don't want to learn anything from any other country, because we are the best and the greatest by definition. The reality is that some things here are great in health care while others stink, and the same is true of many other systems.
There are so many different models to look at from other countries, like the German model that was mentioned, the French model, the Italian, the U.K., the Canadian, the Scandinavian and so on. But Americans tend to lump these all together as "socialized" medicine which they are not, not even in the U.K. which has a private sector of about ten percent of the total health care.
Some countries have hospitals which are free at the point of care and are funded from tax money, combined with government sponsored health insurance for primary care, for example. It would be possible to look at all these different systems and to learn what each feature causes. But my experience is that Americans don't want to learn anything from any other country, because we are the best and the greatest by definition. The reality is that some things here are great in health care while others stink, and the same is true of many other systems.
Hecate-
Could I email you? Friendly question that doesn't belong here.
.
Hecate-
Could I email you? Friendly question that doesn't belong here.
.
Hecate - I agree.
Sisi - I know exactly what you are talking about.
Mathwiz - thank you for that explanation - it makes perfect sense to me.
And all those who don't want to care for people who don't vote the way you want them to, let's start with your family members. I mean really.
When my mother was dying, I didn't give a rat's ass that she voted Republican. It was the farthest thing from my mind.
My mother in law has not been allowed to think for herself her entire life. I don't blame her for her vote. And I'm sure as hell not going to abandon her to die alone because she is a Republican.
I'm really and truly sick to death of the hatefulness.
Hecate - I agree.
Sisi - I know exactly what you are talking about.
Mathwiz - thank you for that explanation - it makes perfect sense to me.
And all those who don't want to care for people who don't vote the way you want them to, let's start with your family members. I mean really.
When my mother was dying, I didn't give a rat's ass that she voted Republican. It was the farthest thing from my mind.
My mother in law has not been allowed to think for herself her entire life. I don't blame her for her vote. And I'm sure as hell not going to abandon her to die alone because she is a Republican.
I'm really and truly sick to death of the hatefulness.
My conservatarian friends will say, so what? If you didn't save enough money in anticipation of this, then tough titties.
Tena - great example of my post on the thread below. Now why don't you call these people and give them a good dose of your "help"
My conservatarian friends will say, so what? If you didn't save enough money in anticipation of this, then tough titties.
Tena - great example of my post on the thread below. Now why don't you call these people and give them a good dose of your "help"
Please, please, please!
We NEED a healthcare issue blog.
The problem is finding people who are conversant enough in it to blog regularly about it.
I've been diligently trying to get one started at Hope for Healthcare, but it's really hard to find folks to provide content.
I'm begging here: If you know this issue, please come write for us. If you know someone who knows this issue, please have them come write for us.
We're providing a free platform for your thoughts. Take advantage of it.
Contact me at:
pants -at- goodshow -dot- net
Please, please, please!
We NEED a healthcare issue blog.
The problem is finding people who are conversant enough in it to blog regularly about it.
I've been diligently trying to get one started at Hope for Healthcare, but it's really hard to find folks to provide content.
I'm begging here: If you know this issue, please come write for us. If you know someone who knows this issue, please have them come write for us.
We're providing a free platform for your thoughts. Take advantage of it.
Contact me at:
pants -at- goodshow -dot- net
Cuba, one of the most threatened nations on earth, spends more on health care than military.
Cuba, one of the most threatened nations on earth, spends more on health care than military.
spork,
Of course
spork,
Of course
One more thing to add into your insurance model. People who live near big corporate locations that use toxic chemicals, and people who live in the North East downwind from a lot of coal plants, will have a much higher incidence of certain diseases. These are largely, but not entirely, poor people.
Take my family. We've had 3 cancers, all of them diagnosed at a young age, and one case of Parkinsons, also diagnosed at relatively young age. The cancers are almost certainly a gift that IBM gave to us--the Parkinsons is possibly related to the same thing. Our family of 5 has paid (our insurance has paid) at least $400,000 for these diseases. IBM has paid only for the Parkinsons. Any solution that moves to a risk-based solution is going to have us paying for a corporation's right to pollute. It'd be nice to have IBM pay for ALL of our diseases (and to have the doctor who misdiagnosed me for 5 years to pay for the more aggressive care I had to go through as a result), but with the personal savings accounts and tort reform that are around the corner, we're moving in the opposite direction.
This needs to be an important part of discussions about health care. We're in a world where the behavior of large entities has increasingly large influence on our health, but we're moving in a direction where those large entities are paying for less and less of the problems they are responsible for.
One more thing to add into your insurance model. People who live near big corporate locations that use toxic chemicals, and people who live in the North East downwind from a lot of coal plants, will have a much higher incidence of certain diseases. These are largely, but not entirely, poor people.
Take my family. We've had 3 cancers, all of them diagnosed at a young age, and one case of Parkinsons, also diagnosed at relatively young age. The cancers are almost certainly a gift that IBM gave to us--the Parkinsons is possibly related to the same thing. Our family of 5 has paid (our insurance has paid) at least $400,000 for these diseases. IBM has paid only for the Parkinsons. Any solution that moves to a risk-based solution is going to have us paying for a corporation's right to pollute. It'd be nice to have IBM pay for ALL of our diseases (and to have the doctor who misdiagnosed me for 5 years to pay for the more aggressive care I had to go through as a result), but with the personal savings accounts and tort reform that are around the corner, we're moving in the opposite direction.
This needs to be an important part of discussions about health care. We're in a world where the behavior of large entities has increasingly large influence on our health, but we're moving in a direction where those large entities are paying for less and less of the problems they are responsible for.
Tena: I'd not be hateful to a Republican (although I'm as likely to meet one as meet a polar bear in this burg). If I have a dislike it's for the admin, not the people who voted them in out of fear or whatever their motivations were.
What I dislike wholly are the freepi who continue their hatefulness despite having "won".
Tena: I'd not be hateful to a Republican (although I'm as likely to meet one as meet a polar bear in this burg). If I have a dislike it's for the admin, not the people who voted them in out of fear or whatever their motivations were.
What I dislike wholly are the freepi who continue their hatefulness despite having "won".
TheaLogie -- well stated!
TheaLogie -- well stated!
Republicans are willing to break any contract. Which is funny, considering how they love contracts.
Just so. Notice how they're trying to invalidate union contracts for pensions. Notice how they say they don't want to change benefits for SS retirees for "current of near retirement age retirees".
What about those of us who've paid into the system for 30 years already and have 20 to go? guess what, we're fucked.
There's nothing to stop them from changing the rules later. And believe me, they will.
Fuck them and the elephant they rode in on.
Republicans are willing to break any contract. Which is funny, considering how they love contracts.
Just so. Notice how they're trying to invalidate union contracts for pensions. Notice how they say they don't want to change benefits for SS retirees for "current of near retirement age retirees".
What about those of us who've paid into the system for 30 years already and have 20 to go? guess what, we're fucked.
There's nothing to stop them from changing the rules later. And believe me, they will.
Fuck them and the elephant they rode in on.
If I have a dislike it's for the admin, not the people who voted them in out of fear or whatever their motivations were.
What I dislike wholly are the freepi who continue their hatefulness despite having "won".
Well, I won't go out of my way to be mean, but I'm not knocking myself out to be friendly either.
The irony to all this is that a lot of the republican base will be hit hardest by this. And we'll sure be hearing about it when it's their families dying.
We need to take the profit motive out of this.
If I have a dislike it's for the admin, not the people who voted them in out of fear or whatever their motivations were.
What I dislike wholly are the freepi who continue their hatefulness despite having "won".
Well, I won't go out of my way to be mean, but I'm not knocking myself out to be friendly either.
The irony to all this is that a lot of the republican base will be hit hardest by this. And we'll sure be hearing about it when it's their families dying.
We need to take the profit motive out of this.
emptywheel, good point and one that has not been mentioned so far.
One possible reason that Red State residents have poor health is because they often have polluting employers without any kind of government or union watchdogs to keep them from polluting the air, water, etc. Not a matter of personal choice on the part of the people who live there as much as it is an economic choice made by corporations to go where they can be sure they won't be pestered by nasty environmental regulations and the like.
emptywheel, good point and one that has not been mentioned so far.
One possible reason that Red State residents have poor health is because they often have polluting employers without any kind of government or union watchdogs to keep them from polluting the air, water, etc. Not a matter of personal choice on the part of the people who live there as much as it is an economic choice made by corporations to go where they can be sure they won't be pestered by nasty environmental regulations and the like.
"Just curious.
Vicki Stein | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 4:57 pm | #"
They measure expenses as a percent of premiums giving them a figure called the MLR (medical loss ratio)
Example: if $0.84 of every dollar in taken in goes directly to providing medical care the MLR is 84%. The other 16% goes to administrative costs and profit.
Most big insurers in the USA have an MLR between 80% - 85%.
Canada's system has a MLR of about 94%.
"Just curious.
Vicki Stein | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 4:57 pm | #"
They measure expenses as a percent of premiums giving them a figure called the MLR (medical loss ratio)
Example: if $0.84 of every dollar in taken in goes directly to providing medical care the MLR is 84%. The other 16% goes to administrative costs and profit.
Most big insurers in the USA have an MLR between 80% - 85%.
Canada's system has a MLR of about 94%.
Atrios, you have it just right.
To further the analogy:
How many people opposed to health insurance are actually saving $2,000,000 in the event that their house should burn down, so that they can pay for the repairs?
It's the same thing.
In a civilized society, one should not have to go bankrupt because of open-heart surgery.
Why they don't get that, I'll never understand.
Atrios, you have it just right.
To further the analogy:
How many people opposed to health insurance are actually saving $2,000,000 in the event that their house should burn down, so that they can pay for the repairs?
It's the same thing.
In a civilized society, one should not have to go bankrupt because of open-heart surgery.
Why they don't get that, I'll never understand.
'Cuba, one of the most threatened nations on earth, spends more on health care than military.'
Why wasn't this brought up by the Kerry campaign???
'Cuba, one of the most threatened nations on earth, spends more on health care than military.'
Why wasn't this brought up by the Kerry campaign???
You folks are mostly missing the boat, IMO. The problem with medical costs is primarily the emphasis and expense of certain types of care.
The medical and technological advances of the late-19th and 20th century that extended lfe expectancy the most were not the cutting edge sorts of things like being able to do brain surgury, CABG's, endarterectomies, etc. What really kicked it up so much are antibiotics, immunizations and conquering many viral diseases, cleaner drinking water, sewage disposal, better nutrition and foods and the like. Sure we've seen gains from the "gee-whiz" stuff, but nothing like the stunning gains of the first half of the 20th century.
We've flipped our priorities around in the US regarding medical care. Little emphasis is put on educating people to do things that will prevent them from developing longterm chronic illnesses. Instead, the focus is on high dollar fixes for problems that could have either been prevented or delayed. we also have the people that can't afford treatment and delay seeking help until an health issue becomes more serious and expensive to treat. Adding to the problem is the penchant for our society to pull out all stops for folks in near hopeless medical conditions. This is particularly true for the elderly.
The highest expenditures for health care costs for most everyone are in the last few weeks of their life. And now it is becoming years as we are able to keep the elderly alive for many years when they are not even cognizant of their surroundings. This, coupled with the folks that have no insurance--yet are treated anyway-- are what is driving the costs through the roof.
I think that we would be much better off if more emphasis was placed on getting the poor and uninsured a more consistent level of minimal treatment coupled with intensive education. Additionally, I think that our society needs to come to grips with the fact that pulling out all stops in some instances may be more cruel than allowing someone to chose to end their own life via euthanasia.
You folks are mostly missing the boat, IMO. The problem with medical costs is primarily the emphasis and expense of certain types of care.
The medical and technological advances of the late-19th and 20th century that extended lfe expectancy the most were not the cutting edge sorts of things like being able to do brain surgury, CABG's, endarterectomies, etc. What really kicked it up so much are antibiotics, immunizations and conquering many viral diseases, cleaner drinking water, sewage disposal, better nutrition and foods and the like. Sure we've seen gains from the "gee-whiz" stuff, but nothing like the stunning gains of the first half of the 20th century.
We've flipped our priorities around in the US regarding medical care. Little emphasis is put on educating people to do things that will prevent them from developing longterm chronic illnesses. Instead, the focus is on high dollar fixes for problems that could have either been prevented or delayed. we also have the people that can't afford treatment and delay seeking help until an health issue becomes more serious and expensive to treat. Adding to the problem is the penchant for our society to pull out all stops for folks in near hopeless medical conditions. This is particularly true for the elderly.
The highest expenditures for health care costs for most everyone are in the last few weeks of their life. And now it is becoming years as we are able to keep the elderly alive for many years when they are not even cognizant of their surroundings. This, coupled with the folks that have no insurance--yet are treated anyway-- are what is driving the costs through the roof.
I think that we would be much better off if more emphasis was placed on getting the poor and uninsured a more consistent level of minimal treatment coupled with intensive education. Additionally, I think that our society needs to come to grips with the fact that pulling out all stops in some instances may be more cruel than allowing someone to chose to end their own life via euthanasia.
well, the illustrious Dr. A touches on the problem, but doesn't state the bottom line in black and white.
Democrats think that affordable health care is a right. Period. End of sentence. I could go on about how it benefits a society to have a healthy people, but that is beside the point. We think of it as a right.
Republicans don't.
I have way too many GOPpers that I cound as friends and, to a person, they all agree that it's NICE to have health care, but they look at the concept of "rights" as something that is granted by God - like life, for instance. Liberty. These are "god-given rights".
In other words, health care ... education ... equal pay for equal work - while they are all wonderful ideas, Republicans don't think that people have the RIGHT to them.
If the goddam Democratic National Committee could get its collective head out of its posterior, they could make some serious hay out of that very concept. Clue a few senior citizens that, as far as the republicans are concerned, they don't have a right to affordable medications or visits to the doctor and you may change a few minds.
Gah.
well, the illustrious Dr. A touches on the problem, but doesn't state the bottom line in black and white.
Democrats think that affordable health care is a right. Period. End of sentence. I could go on about how it benefits a society to have a healthy people, but that is beside the point. We think of it as a right.
Republicans don't.
I have way too many GOPpers that I cound as friends and, to a person, they all agree that it's NICE to have health care, but they look at the concept of "rights" as something that is granted by God - like life, for instance. Liberty. These are "god-given rights".
In other words, health care ... education ... equal pay for equal work - while they are all wonderful ideas, Republicans don't think that people have the RIGHT to them.
If the goddam Democratic National Committee could get its collective head out of its posterior, they could make some serious hay out of that very concept. Clue a few senior citizens that, as far as the republicans are concerned, they don't have a right to affordable medications or visits to the doctor and you may change a few minds.
Gah.
Environmental justice groups have been pointing out for some time that sources of pollution tend overwhelmingly to be sited near poor people and people of color. It's not difficult to understand why. No one is going to buy property in Kennebunkport, at Kennebunkport prices, to site a chemical plant. They buy where the land is cheap, which, not surprisingly is near where poor people live. Also, the citizens of Kennebunkport are much more able to fight off any chemical plant that might think of siting near them than are poor people. One result is that poor people -- those least likely to be able to afford health care -- are often the most likely to be exposed to dangerous pollutants.
Environmental justice groups have been pointing out for some time that sources of pollution tend overwhelmingly to be sited near poor people and people of color. It's not difficult to understand why. No one is going to buy property in Kennebunkport, at Kennebunkport prices, to site a chemical plant. They buy where the land is cheap, which, not surprisingly is near where poor people live. Also, the citizens of Kennebunkport are much more able to fight off any chemical plant that might think of siting near them than are poor people. One result is that poor people -- those least likely to be able to afford health care -- are often the most likely to be exposed to dangerous pollutants.
The lack of empathy that Republicans routinely display nowadays is appalling.
Lincoln would have nothing to do with this mothercheneying shit. Nothing.
The lack of empathy that Republicans routinely display nowadays is appalling.
Lincoln would have nothing to do with this mothercheneying shit. Nothing.
I'm not sure what this endgame is with the repugs. If people cannot afford healthcare, you have a) a sick/debilitated workforce not able to pay taxes or produce goods and services, thus affecting the economy, thus affecting the ability to maintain a healthy workforce, reducing income in the healthcare industry, yada yada yada.
It just doesn't make sense to give these businesses a short-term tax break when in the long-run people without healthcare will just end up hurting the economy more than any tax-break helped.
What the fuck?
I guess it's spend spend spend! The rapture is-a-comin'!
I'm not sure what this endgame is with the repugs. If people cannot afford healthcare, you have a) a sick/debilitated workforce not able to pay taxes or produce goods and services, thus affecting the economy, thus affecting the ability to maintain a healthy workforce, reducing income in the healthcare industry, yada yada yada.
It just doesn't make sense to give these businesses a short-term tax break when in the long-run people without healthcare will just end up hurting the economy more than any tax-break helped.
What the fuck?
I guess it's spend spend spend! The rapture is-a-comin'!
you know the article you linked to in the previous thread about breast feeding as a gateway, is from a parody site?
And funny as hell, too, I thought. A good belly-laugh. "Gateway sin!"
Four Legs -- my dad worked 30+ years for "The Bell System" (back when there was just one phone company, for all you young upstarts). He and my mother now receive supplemental health insurance because of his years of service.
But WAIT! Not so fast! His particular part of the old "phone company" was bought by SAIC, who is slashing bennies for retirees. My mom has needed a knee replacment for a long time, and just went ahead and did it before she was in optimal health for it, because she is afraid they'll do away with the benefit in January. At 74, she's finding this decision has cost her some health in a very difficult recovery. But she had to do it! They sold everything they owned (literally) to move into a retirement community, so have no savings left for medical "emergencies." My heart aches for her...this whole damn situation has been such a mess, and if she could have just waited a little longer, when she was a little stronger...
ugh.
And my parents are on the "wealthy" end of the scale! What about people walking around with kidney ailments, chronic coughs, allergies, or aches & pains that aren't considered emergencies -- yet -- who can't afford medical care?
I guess I am just a bleeding heart. Fuck 'em. They should have inherited some wealth like a good, responsible American would.
you know the article you linked to in the previous thread about breast feeding as a gateway, is from a parody site?
And funny as hell, too, I thought. A good belly-laugh. "Gateway sin!"
Four Legs -- my dad worked 30+ years for "The Bell System" (back when there was just one phone company, for all you young upstarts). He and my mother now receive supplemental health insurance because of his years of service.
But WAIT! Not so fast! His particular part of the old "phone company" was bought by SAIC, who is slashing bennies for retirees. My mom has needed a knee replacment for a long time, and just went ahead and did it before she was in optimal health for it, because she is afraid they'll do away with the benefit in January. At 74, she's finding this decision has cost her some health in a very difficult recovery. But she had to do it! They sold everything they owned (literally) to move into a retirement community, so have no savings left for medical "emergencies." My heart aches for her...this whole damn situation has been such a mess, and if she could have just waited a little longer, when she was a little stronger...
ugh.
And my parents are on the "wealthy" end of the scale! What about people walking around with kidney ailments, chronic coughs, allergies, or aches & pains that aren't considered emergencies -- yet -- who can't afford medical care?
I guess I am just a bleeding heart. Fuck 'em. They should have inherited some wealth like a good, responsible American would.
I'm assuming part 3 will start addressing people with chronic illnesses like diabetes or asthma? You know, those of us who don't start at square one at age 18?
Believe you me, trying to get health insurance with any kind of "pre-existing" condition is a pain in the friggin' ass.
I'm assuming part 3 will start addressing people with chronic illnesses like diabetes or asthma? You know, those of us who don't start at square one at age 18?
Believe you me, trying to get health insurance with any kind of "pre-existing" condition is a pain in the friggin' ass.
I once had a student write an essay on the American health care system in which he advocated scrapping all governmental funding of care (Medicare, Medicaid, state-funded mental hospitals, VA benefits and so on). His reason? That the free market system is the best and that the winners should get a reward and the losers could just as well die on the streets.
I once had a student write an essay on the American health care system in which he advocated scrapping all governmental funding of care (Medicare, Medicaid, state-funded mental hospitals, VA benefits and so on). His reason? That the free market system is the best and that the winners should get a reward and the losers could just as well die on the streets.
" I don't understand why this issue is so difficult in America. Many other countries manage to provide first-class health care for their citizens without going bankrupt. Not rocket science.
Hecate | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 5:00 pm | # "
Quite so, Hecate. They also manage to provide a much better welfare 'safety net'; pension plans (National Insurance I believe it's called in the UK); decent prisons with fewer inmates; good public schools; longer vacations; etc. etc.
I think it's because 'they' had Dickens and Victor Hugo writing about how utterly bleak life was for the masses ~ 150 years back. Whereas 'we', at the same time, were the ones who had upped and left for a new life in the New World with wide open spaces to occupy (apart from the pesky natives) and less excuse for being miserable.
As I've said before: if social trends here follow the current path, and Europe's population decline continues, there's going to be a reverse surge of the huddled masses back to the old world (not to mention the Far East and Australia). That's where future opportunities are going to lie.
" I don't understand why this issue is so difficult in America. Many other countries manage to provide first-class health care for their citizens without going bankrupt. Not rocket science.
Hecate | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 5:00 pm | # "
Quite so, Hecate. They also manage to provide a much better welfare 'safety net'; pension plans (National Insurance I believe it's called in the UK); decent prisons with fewer inmates; good public schools; longer vacations; etc. etc.
I think it's because 'they' had Dickens and Victor Hugo writing about how utterly bleak life was for the masses ~ 150 years back. Whereas 'we', at the same time, were the ones who had upped and left for a new life in the New World with wide open spaces to occupy (apart from the pesky natives) and less excuse for being miserable.
As I've said before: if social trends here follow the current path, and Europe's population decline continues, there's going to be a reverse surge of the huddled masses back to the old world (not to mention the Far East and Australia). That's where future opportunities are going to lie.
Carol,
Please don't link the expression "survival of the fittest" with Charles Darwin's theories of Evolution by Natural Selection or Sexual Selection. The phrase should be attributed to Herbert Spencer and has always been a justification for white Christian supremacy. Darwinism and Social Darwinism have only the name in common. The right-wing is irony-impaired in many ways; that is not one of them.
Carol,
Please don't link the expression "survival of the fittest" with Charles Darwin's theories of Evolution by Natural Selection or Sexual Selection. The phrase should be attributed to Herbert Spencer and has always been a justification for white Christian supremacy. Darwinism and Social Darwinism have only the name in common. The right-wing is irony-impaired in many ways; that is not one of them.
That horrid Texas Association of Business group had a suggestion that I actually agree with: make physician's disclose their prices.
That horrid Texas Association of Business group had a suggestion that I actually agree with: make physician's disclose their prices.
four legs good, agree with you. I wouldn't trust that the rules wouldn't change further down the line. Look at pension plans, Enron, etc. People are getting screwed all over. I'm telling you, I think people are wasting time trying to think of a private insurance model that will work. The government will have much less overhead i.e. Medicare. I worked with insurance and had much less trouble dealing with Medicare than with private insurance companies. They have much more overhead and duplicate efforts than a good government program would be. Plus they spend more time looking for ways to not cover you, which I'm sure leads to more overhead in the long run. If everybody is covered, nobody, for ex. Tena with the issue of costs higher for red states, blue states et al. that wouldn't be a factor. We would all be in the same boat. Tell me how I'm being too simplistic, but doesn't it seem like after all the fighting that we will have to do this like other countries have?
four legs good, agree with you. I wouldn't trust that the rules wouldn't change further down the line. Look at pension plans, Enron, etc. People are getting screwed all over. I'm telling you, I think people are wasting time trying to think of a private insurance model that will work. The government will have much less overhead i.e. Medicare. I worked with insurance and had much less trouble dealing with Medicare than with private insurance companies. They have much more overhead and duplicate efforts than a good government program would be. Plus they spend more time looking for ways to not cover you, which I'm sure leads to more overhead in the long run. If everybody is covered, nobody, for ex. Tena with the issue of costs higher for red states, blue states et al. that wouldn't be a factor. We would all be in the same boat. Tell me how I'm being too simplistic, but doesn't it seem like after all the fighting that we will have to do this like other countries have?
OT, but I just have to share this. The wonderful woman who runs the local farmers' market sends out a weekly e-newsletter that always starts with a poem. Here's the one she used this week:
Sometimes things don’t go, after all,
from bad to worse. Some years, muscadel
faces down frost; green thrives; the crops don’t fail,
sometimes a man aims high, and all goes well.
A people sometimes will step back from war;
elect an honest man; decide they care
enough, that they can’t leave some stranger poor.
Some men become what they were born for.
Sometimes our best efforts do not go
amiss; sometimes we do as we meant to.
The sun will sometimes melt a field of sorrow
that seemed hard frozen: may it happen for you.
-- Sheenagh Pugh, “Sometimes”
OT, but I just have to share this. The wonderful woman who runs the local farmers' market sends out a weekly e-newsletter that always starts with a poem. Here's the one she used this week:
Sometimes things don’t go, after all,
from bad to worse. Some years, muscadel
faces down frost; green thrives; the crops don’t fail,
sometimes a man aims high, and all goes well.
A people sometimes will step back from war;
elect an honest man; decide they care
enough, that they can’t leave some stranger poor.
Some men become what they were born for.
Sometimes our best efforts do not go
amiss; sometimes we do as we meant to.
The sun will sometimes melt a field of sorrow
that seemed hard frozen: may it happen for you.
-- Sheenagh Pugh, “Sometimes”
Screw insurance, invest in grilled cheese.
Screw insurance, invest in grilled cheese.
With so many people uninsured for health care, it will literally be "live as long as you are able". This is one of the saddest parts of John Kerry losing this election. There was so much hope there for these poor families.
With so many people uninsured for health care, it will literally be "live as long as you are able". This is one of the saddest parts of John Kerry losing this election. There was so much hope there for these poor families.
"That horrid Texas Association of Business group had a suggestion that I actually agree with: make physician's disclose their prices.
John Gillnitz | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 5:34 pm | # "
Not a bad idea at all. I can tell you right now that Medicare pay $37.50 for a session with a patient.
If you run a patient 'mill' I guess you could do well on this. However, if you schedule 30-45mins with a patient (ie: fill up an hour including paperwork, etc.) then I'd say that $37.50, although not peanuts, is hardly excessive. Bearing in mind that's gross before office, personnel, equipment, insurance, utilities, telephone, postage, etc. etc. etc.
That's why the older generation of physicians tend to be unhappy. They're earning much less than they did 20 years back. New entrants have no expectations of riches unless that's their goal and they specifically target the appropriate specialies (do I hear 'plastics' anyone?).
"That horrid Texas Association of Business group had a suggestion that I actually agree with: make physician's disclose their prices.
John Gillnitz | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 5:34 pm | # "
Not a bad idea at all. I can tell you right now that Medicare pay $37.50 for a session with a patient.
If you run a patient 'mill' I guess you could do well on this. However, if you schedule 30-45mins with a patient (ie: fill up an hour including paperwork, etc.) then I'd say that $37.50, although not peanuts, is hardly excessive. Bearing in mind that's gross before office, personnel, equipment, insurance, utilities, telephone, postage, etc. etc. etc.
That's why the older generation of physicians tend to be unhappy. They're earning much less than they did 20 years back. New entrants have no expectations of riches unless that's their goal and they specifically target the appropriate specialies (do I hear 'plastics' anyone?).
Why do you dance around the most obvious and the proven most effective method of all - full, free, government-provided health care. There's a reason why Cuba has health statistics far ahead of the vast majority of third world countries, and a reason why millions of vulnerable old people in the United States will be without flu shots this year. Private health care, and all the "health insurance" schemes you can conjure up, will never be the equal of a properly designed system, a system designed for human needs and not corporate profits.
Why do you dance around the most obvious and the proven most effective method of all - full, free, government-provided health care. There's a reason why Cuba has health statistics far ahead of the vast majority of third world countries, and a reason why millions of vulnerable old people in the United States will be without flu shots this year. Private health care, and all the "health insurance" schemes you can conjure up, will never be the equal of a properly designed system, a system designed for human needs and not corporate profits.
I think we should ask for the opinion of
Frist
My Republican neighbor, who actually used to work on this kinda stuff for Marsh & McLennan, objects to anyone using the phrase "medical insurance" in his presence.
"It's not insurance!" he says. "You're going to use it! You're not insuring yourself against something!"
He also talks to one or another of the Frists every now and then, and is convinced that Bill has lost his mind.
I think we should ask for the opinion of
Frist
My Republican neighbor, who actually used to work on this kinda stuff for Marsh & McLennan, objects to anyone using the phrase "medical insurance" in his presence.
"It's not insurance!" he says. "You're going to use it! You're not insuring yourself against something!"
He also talks to one or another of the Frists every now and then, and is convinced that Bill has lost his mind.
Little emphasis is put on educating people to do things that will prevent them from developing longterm chronic illnesses.
Yeah, and even less emphasis is placed on keeping our environment clean enough to prevent people from developing long term chronic illnesses. 1 in 4 poor children in NYC suffers from asthma. Of course, it could be that their moms don't read enough health-related magazine articles.
Little emphasis is put on educating people to do things that will prevent them from developing longterm chronic illnesses.
Yeah, and even less emphasis is placed on keeping our environment clean enough to prevent people from developing long term chronic illnesses. 1 in 4 poor children in NYC suffers from asthma. Of course, it could be that their moms don't read enough health-related magazine articles.
'Cuba, one of the most threatened nations on earth, spends more on health care than military.'
I wish people would think about this and apply it here.
The US spends how much on *defense*?
Or maybe it should be called *offense*.
Yeah, that's the ticket.
'Cuba, one of the most threatened nations on earth, spends more on health care than military.'
I wish people would think about this and apply it here.
The US spends how much on *defense*?
Or maybe it should be called *offense*.
Yeah, that's the ticket.
Paper work- red tape
That's a big chuck of the costs involved in healthcare.
We could use a more standard way of tracking patient history, a national health database and accreditation database, more streamlined administration...
Of course, having a giant patient database just screams Big Brother, but it would help.
Just a few ideas...
Paper work- red tape
That's a big chuck of the costs involved in healthcare.
We could use a more standard way of tracking patient history, a national health database and accreditation database, more streamlined administration...
Of course, having a giant patient database just screams Big Brother, but it would help.
Just a few ideas...
But, but, denying people healthcare because they can't pay for is...RATIONING!
But, but, denying people healthcare because they can't pay for is...RATIONING!
wÒÓ†-
Nice grilled-cheese.
I'd like to eat that!
(I've been lax around here lately. Gotta boobie?)
.
wÒÓ†-
Nice grilled-cheese.
I'd like to eat that!
(I've been lax around here lately. Gotta boobie?)
.
The US spends how much on *defense*?
Or maybe it should be called *offense*.
...We the people would be quite a bit better off if we declared ourselves Neutral. And we would probably be a whole lot better at the moral leadership gig.
The US spends how much on *defense*?
Or maybe it should be called *offense*.
...We the people would be quite a bit better off if we declared ourselves Neutral. And we would probably be a whole lot better at the moral leadership gig.
Environmental justice groups have been pointing out for some time that sources of pollution tend overwhelmingly to be sited near poor people and people of color...One result is that poor people -- those least likely to be able to afford health care -- are often the most likely to be exposed to dangerous pollutants.
And sadly, these sites are often located in rural parts of red states. Louisiana, for example, is a toxic wasteland. But they vote for Bush anyway.
Environmental justice groups have been pointing out for some time that sources of pollution tend overwhelmingly to be sited near poor people and people of color...One result is that poor people -- those least likely to be able to afford health care -- are often the most likely to be exposed to dangerous pollutants.
And sadly, these sites are often located in rural parts of red states. Louisiana, for example, is a toxic wasteland. But they vote for Bush anyway.
"Screw insurance, invest in grilled cheese.
wÒÓ† | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 5:41 pm | # .."
Can't fool me.. That's not the VM. It's Anna-Nicole.. I'm goin' to bid it way up....
"Screw insurance, invest in grilled cheese.
wÒÓ† | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 5:41 pm | # .."
Can't fool me.. That's not the VM. It's Anna-Nicole.. I'm goin' to bid it way up....
Here, poor people and mostly minorities, have been the victims of industry, too, and as a result, they have higher incidences of illnesses that are directly linked to the pollution from those industries.
It isn't fair to penalize them. They are the ones who are penalized every day of their lives. They live in flood plains that are contaminated by lead in the soil. And on and on and on.
Dawna - I have no interest in calling up individuals, asking them who they voted for and then determining their worthiness based on that. I"m not interested in their opinions on it, either. I'm interested in health care for every American.
If that doesn't work for you, if you want to apportion out care to people based on how they vote, then you can leave me out of it, too. I'll stand with whomever is being discriminated against for whatever reason.
Here, poor people and mostly minorities, have been the victims of industry, too, and as a result, they have higher incidences of illnesses that are directly linked to the pollution from those industries.
It isn't fair to penalize them. They are the ones who are penalized every day of their lives. They live in flood plains that are contaminated by lead in the soil. And on and on and on.
Dawna - I have no interest in calling up individuals, asking them who they voted for and then determining their worthiness based on that. I"m not interested in their opinions on it, either. I'm interested in health care for every American.
If that doesn't work for you, if you want to apportion out care to people based on how they vote, then you can leave me out of it, too. I'll stand with whomever is being discriminated against for whatever reason.
New entrants have no expectations of riches unless that's their goal and they specifically target the appropriate specialies (do I hear 'plastics' anyone?).
I have a friend who recently passed the neurology boards - BA Harvard, MD USC - who just accepted a research position in the Bay Area for an annual salary of about $45k.
Riches is one thing, but that's outrageous.
New entrants have no expectations of riches unless that's their goal and they specifically target the appropriate specialies (do I hear 'plastics' anyone?).
I have a friend who recently passed the neurology boards - BA Harvard, MD USC - who just accepted a research position in the Bay Area for an annual salary of about $45k.
Riches is one thing, but that's outrageous.
I can't begin to tell you how much the whole insurance de-incentive story depressed me today. The saddest thing is that I'm worn out - all my outrage feels ... well .. dissipated.
basically, I can't get it up even to e-mail the damned article to my friends.
In one fell swoop, W is taking away something people NEED - medical costs are the No.2 cause of bankruptcy in this country.
And, while I think that providing an incentive to save and invest is a great thing, there are too many families out there who are living from paycheck-to-paycheck. They can barely afford to put gas in their car, much less set money aside into savings. Not getting a tax break on their state and local taxes WON'T BE offset by all the money they save by not declaring their savings income.
Then, add to that that they'll have to find affordable (hahahahahah) health insurance for their families ... hell, Im 38 and, befor I was hired by my current employer, my monthly insurance cost was $200 ... and that didn't include kids. Tell me how many families of 4 who live on $24K can afford that ...
... I'd love to know if the 59M people who voted for this dickwad are happy now that their employers may not be providing health insurance much longer ...
I can't begin to tell you how much the whole insurance de-incentive story depressed me today. The saddest thing is that I'm worn out - all my outrage feels ... well .. dissipated.
basically, I can't get it up even to e-mail the damned article to my friends.
In one fell swoop, W is taking away something people NEED - medical costs are the No.2 cause of bankruptcy in this country.
And, while I think that providing an incentive to save and invest is a great thing, there are too many families out there who are living from paycheck-to-paycheck. They can barely afford to put gas in their car, much less set money aside into savings. Not getting a tax break on their state and local taxes WON'T BE offset by all the money they save by not declaring their savings income.
Then, add to that that they'll have to find affordable (hahahahahah) health insurance for their families ... hell, Im 38 and, befor I was hired by my current employer, my monthly insurance cost was $200 ... and that didn't include kids. Tell me how many families of 4 who live on $24K can afford that ...
... I'd love to know if the 59M people who voted for this dickwad are happy now that their employers may not be providing health insurance much longer ...
I think the woman in the grilled cheese kind of looks like Fay Wray.
I think the woman in the grilled cheese kind of looks like Fay Wray.
We simply don't have the ability to predict an individual's future health with any great degree of accuracy. Socioeconomic status, family history, and high-risk behaviors (smoking, not wearing seatbelts) all play a role, but with rare exceptions it is not possible for anyone to accurately predict how many health problems an individual will experience. This is especially true the younger the individual is. To me, that's the gigantic flaw at the heart of the Republican you-should-save-for-your-own-healthcare "plan."
We simply don't have the ability to predict an individual's future health with any great degree of accuracy. Socioeconomic status, family history, and high-risk behaviors (smoking, not wearing seatbelts) all play a role, but with rare exceptions it is not possible for anyone to accurately predict how many health problems an individual will experience. This is especially true the younger the individual is. To me, that's the gigantic flaw at the heart of the Republican you-should-save-for-your-own-healthcare "plan."
Democrats think that affordable health care is a right. Period. End of sentence. I could go on about how it benefits a society to have a healthy people, but that is beside the point. We think of it as a right.
If that were true, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Canadians, or Britons, or the French, or the Dutch believe that affordable health care is a right.
Democrats had a long time in which they could have done it, but didn't.
Democrats think that affordable health care is a right. Period. End of sentence. I could go on about how it benefits a society to have a healthy people, but that is beside the point. We think of it as a right.
If that were true, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Canadians, or Britons, or the French, or the Dutch believe that affordable health care is a right.
Democrats had a long time in which they could have done it, but didn't.
Just to get it off my chest, do you realize that if (if) Atrios maintains this site for the next 4 years, we will accomplish almost nothing except giving ourselves ulcers wondering why the idiots don't see what we're talking about. It began in what, 2002? We've been right almost everytime and yet, here we are. Preaching to the choir. It's not going to change anything. These fascists are IN CONTROL now. I'm not saying "accept it" just that us, in here, commenting about the facts (that we KNOW we have been right about) will not do anything but get us madder. Seeing the dems all but rollover at Fearless Leaders "Man-date" and not doing a FUCKING THING about anything only shows you that the fascists had their bases covered. You had either Fascism or Fascism lite. We chose full-blown Fascism cause when 'Murka does something, it doesn't go half-ass about it.
We get what we deserved.
If I sound "defeatist" it's only because we, in every way, have been defeated. I donated, I volunteered, I blogged, I pamphleted, I bumperstickered, I marhced, I rallied, I did as much as the next person. But they didn't give a fuck what they did, even if it included fraud to win it.
Now they don't give a fuck what they do only they don't have to worry about convincing voters anymore. We WILL invade Iran within 2 years. We WILL cut healthcare benefits to almost half the country. We WILL in all liklihood pull out of the UN and we WILL witness what all of us have been saying would happen to 'Murka all this time.
Is that defeatism or realism, now that the Story is playing itself out whether we like it or not?
Just to get it off my chest, do you realize that if (if) Atrios maintains this site for the next 4 years, we will accomplish almost nothing except giving ourselves ulcers wondering why the idiots don't see what we're talking about. It began in what, 2002? We've been right almost everytime and yet, here we are. Preaching to the choir. It's not going to change anything. These fascists are IN CONTROL now. I'm not saying "accept it" just that us, in here, commenting about the facts (that we KNOW we have been right about) will not do anything but get us madder. Seeing the dems all but rollover at Fearless Leaders "Man-date" and not doing a FUCKING THING about anything only shows you that the fascists had their bases covered. You had either Fascism or Fascism lite. We chose full-blown Fascism cause when 'Murka does something, it doesn't go half-ass about it.
We get what we deserved.
If I sound "defeatist" it's only because we, in every way, have been defeated. I donated, I volunteered, I blogged, I pamphleted, I bumperstickered, I marhced, I rallied, I did as much as the next person. But they didn't give a fuck what they did, even if it included fraud to win it.
Now they don't give a fuck what they do only they don't have to worry about convincing voters anymore. We WILL invade Iran within 2 years. We WILL cut healthcare benefits to almost half the country. We WILL in all liklihood pull out of the UN and we WILL witness what all of us have been saying would happen to 'Murka all this time.
Is that defeatism or realism, now that the Story is playing itself out whether we like it or not?
Of course, the ability to save for a rainy day also depends how much money you put into Enron, or some S & L with connections to the Bush crime family.
I'll start trusting the market to provide for me in old age as soon as investment and securities fraud becomes punishable by death no matter what your last name is.
Of course, the ability to save for a rainy day also depends how much money you put into Enron, or some S & L with connections to the Bush crime family.
I'll start trusting the market to provide for me in old age as soon as investment and securities fraud becomes punishable by death no matter what your last name is.
I suppose I should look at some of this as a good thing, I am hoping to start-up my own paralegal business next year, and I'll be doing bankruptcies, so Bush will probably help my business a lot. Unfortunately I probably won't be able to afford health insurance for myself. My kids are covered through their mother's plan.
More bankruptcies - good for my business. Bad for society.
I suppose I should look at some of this as a good thing, I am hoping to start-up my own paralegal business next year, and I'll be doing bankruptcies, so Bush will probably help my business a lot. Unfortunately I probably won't be able to afford health insurance for myself. My kids are covered through their mother's plan.
More bankruptcies - good for my business. Bad for society.
Is that defeatism or realism, now that the Story is playing itself out whether we like it or not?
Jack
"Forget it, Jack. It's Chinatown."
Is that defeatism or realism, now that the Story is playing itself out whether we like it or not?
Jack
"Forget it, Jack. It's Chinatown."
Tena - I have a son with a chronic illness he was born with. It took my husband and myself both working for 15 years to pay our way out of the mess. (yeah we could have declared bankruptcy) We received NO help from any government agency because we made to much money. It's nice to sit on your high horse and talk about what you want to see in this country, dont blame me because the rethugs will see to it that your world never exists.
Tena - I have a son with a chronic illness he was born with. It took my husband and myself both working for 15 years to pay our way out of the mess. (yeah we could have declared bankruptcy) We received NO help from any government agency because we made to much money. It's nice to sit on your high horse and talk about what you want to see in this country, dont blame me because the rethugs will see to it that your world never exists.
Philalethes - I think most sane people would agree with you, especially sane people who are old enough to be looking reality in the face.
Philalethes - I think most sane people would agree with you, especially sane people who are old enough to be looking reality in the face.
We've been right almost everytime and yet, here we are. Preaching to the choir.
I sure am sick of this bullshit. In this first place, the GOP got where it is today by "preaching to the choir." It got where it is by having an unparalleled echo chamber.
In the second place, posting on Eschaton isn't ANYONE'S idea of "changing the world." As far as I can tell, everyone who posts here regularly is out doing all sorts of things, all the time...arguing with friends and family, writing articles, joining organizations, donating money, supporting candidates, making better buying decisions, organizing boycotts, doing research, teaching children and adults in high schools and colleges, and so forth. This crap about "We're not going to get anything done when all we do is post stuff on blogs" is really boring, and it assumes facts that are not at all in evidence.
We've been right almost everytime and yet, here we are. Preaching to the choir.
I sure am sick of this bullshit. In this first place, the GOP got where it is today by "preaching to the choir." It got where it is by having an unparalleled echo chamber.
In the second place, posting on Eschaton isn't ANYONE'S idea of "changing the world." As far as I can tell, everyone who posts here regularly is out doing all sorts of things, all the time...arguing with friends and family, writing articles, joining organizations, donating money, supporting candidates, making better buying decisions, organizing boycotts, doing research, teaching children and adults in high schools and colleges, and so forth. This crap about "We're not going to get anything done when all we do is post stuff on blogs" is really boring, and it assumes facts that are not at all in evidence.
Dawna - I'm not on a high horse, honey, but if you feel badly about your position, don't blame me.
I'm sorry for your family's problems and I would dearly love to see that all such problems were being addressed as they should be. But I don't see the equation between your problem and wanting to shut people out of a system because they voted for the wrong guy.
That's not the discussion. Nor should it be. And I really think you know that.
Dawna - I'm not on a high horse, honey, but if you feel badly about your position, don't blame me.
I'm sorry for your family's problems and I would dearly love to see that all such problems were being addressed as they should be. But I don't see the equation between your problem and wanting to shut people out of a system because they voted for the wrong guy.
That's not the discussion. Nor should it be. And I really think you know that.
heh, this reminds me of the group project in macroeconomics. the class was divided into teams, we were all given an island and some bodies and told to run with it over 40 "years". Our team won with the most production because we worked our citizens to death, then cannibalized them. and nobody lived past 25.
heh, this reminds me of the group project in macroeconomics. the class was divided into teams, we were all given an island and some bodies and told to run with it over 40 "years". Our team won with the most production because we worked our citizens to death, then cannibalized them. and nobody lived past 25.
That is a pretty astute observation from your neigbor, theodoric. Perhaps it should be called "medical assurance."
That is a pretty astute observation from your neigbor, theodoric. Perhaps it should be called "medical assurance."
Philalethes - I think most sane people would agree with you, especially sane people who are old enough to be looking reality in the face.
I think the GOP has a certain advantage in the simple fact that they force us to argue such insane points. Like, "Government is the problem, not the solution...so let's get rid of government accountability and transparency!"
Or, "We need big government off our backs...so that the GOP can legislate our sex lives!"
Talking to people who are completely fucking insane really wears you down after a while. It's bad for your blood pressure, too.
Philalethes - I think most sane people would agree with you, especially sane people who are old enough to be looking reality in the face.
I think the GOP has a certain advantage in the simple fact that they force us to argue such insane points. Like, "Government is the problem, not the solution...so let's get rid of government accountability and transparency!"
Or, "We need big government off our backs...so that the GOP can legislate our sex lives!"
Talking to people who are completely fucking insane really wears you down after a while. It's bad for your blood pressure, too.
The problem with this issue is that it is just slightly complicated -- not extremely complicated, but complicated enough that, as Atrios has already found, it doesn't quite fit into a sound bite. It also is an actual fact that all of the assumptions behind the widely accepted idea that markets allocate resources "efficiently" completely fail in the case of medical care. So we have some people posting comments here about how the "free market" is the best solution to the health care problem, but believe me, even the most conservative free market ideologues know damn well that isn't true.
I'm not going to take up too much space talking about this here. I'm considering a diary on Kos, or even starting a blog. Would anybody visit if I did that?
The problem with this issue is that it is just slightly complicated -- not extremely complicated, but complicated enough that, as Atrios has already found, it doesn't quite fit into a sound bite. It also is an actual fact that all of the assumptions behind the widely accepted idea that markets allocate resources "efficiently" completely fail in the case of medical care. So we have some people posting comments here about how the "free market" is the best solution to the health care problem, but believe me, even the most conservative free market ideologues know damn well that isn't true.
I'm not going to take up too much space talking about this here. I'm considering a diary on Kos, or even starting a blog. Would anybody visit if I did that?
Some basic facts on the American Health care system that people may or may not realize:
1. As consumers, most (but not all) young people pay for health insurance (usually through an employer plan) but rarely, if ever, use it. no claims = pure profit for the Insurance companies on most people in their 20's, 30's and early 40's.
2. As you get older, things "fall apart." Having health insurance becomes radically more important.
3.If you have a job, they *must* insure you (if you want it), regadless of pre-existing condition. This is due to the way all state "employer/group" health insurance laws are written.
4. At any age, if you don't have access to employer group health insurance and you do have some sort of pre-existing condition (asthma, diabetes, arthritis, etc.), you may be (and usually are) denied coverage.
5. When you leave an employer, COBRA and HIPAA laws only provide you with access to coverage for up to 18 months. After that you're on your own and can (and will) be denied coverage if you have a pre-existing condition.
7. In addition to the upward adjustment of premiums that insurance companies make for age, condition and demographic, the cost of COBRA/HIPPA plans are, generally, 2x what "normal" individual policies cost.
Some basic facts on the American Health care system that people may or may not realize:
1. As consumers, most (but not all) young people pay for health insurance (usually through an employer plan) but rarely, if ever, use it. no claims = pure profit for the Insurance companies on most people in their 20's, 30's and early 40's.
2. As you get older, things "fall apart." Having health insurance becomes radically more important.
3.If you have a job, they *must* insure you (if you want it), regadless of pre-existing condition. This is due to the way all state "employer/group" health insurance laws are written.
4. At any age, if you don't have access to employer group health insurance and you do have some sort of pre-existing condition (asthma, diabetes, arthritis, etc.), you may be (and usually are) denied coverage.
5. When you leave an employer, COBRA and HIPAA laws only provide you with access to coverage for up to 18 months. After that you're on your own and can (and will) be denied coverage if you have a pre-existing condition.
7. In addition to the upward adjustment of premiums that insurance companies make for age, condition and demographic, the cost of COBRA/HIPPA plans are, generally, 2x what "normal" individual policies cost.
OT
1. WTF is up with Kerry having all this cash left over?
2. WTF is up with Donna Brazile running her mouth off about it non-stop?
OT
1. WTF is up with Kerry having all this cash left over?
2. WTF is up with Donna Brazile running her mouth off about it non-stop?
Jack
You can't really believe with fascists in control that any one will be allowed to sit at this site for the next four years. Even itf Atrios wants to keep this up, they won't allow it. That's when I will know it is time to move.
Jack
You can't really believe with fascists in control that any one will be allowed to sit at this site for the next four years. Even itf Atrios wants to keep this up, they won't allow it. That's when I will know it is time to move.
But I don't see the equation between your problem and wanting to shut people out of a system because they voted for the wrong guy.
Show me where I said I wanted to exclude people. You really need a head check lady. The story of my family is relevant to the healthcare conversation. If you don't think so skip over my post, no one is asking you to read it. I am sorry our man didn't win, but don't come in here trying to put words in my mouth. We lost because our message didn't resonate with with jebus people. If you think they care you are so sadly misguided. Dont bother to reply I can go listen to my three year old whine, even though you are better at it.
But I don't see the equation between your problem and wanting to shut people out of a system because they voted for the wrong guy.
Show me where I said I wanted to exclude people. You really need a head check lady. The story of my family is relevant to the healthcare conversation. If you don't think so skip over my post, no one is asking you to read it. I am sorry our man didn't win, but don't come in here trying to put words in my mouth. We lost because our message didn't resonate with with jebus people. If you think they care you are so sadly misguided. Dont bother to reply I can go listen to my three year old whine, even though you are better at it.
If people cannot afford healthcare, you have a) a sick/debilitated workforce not able to pay taxes or produce goods and services, thus affecting the economy, thus affecting the ability to maintain a healthy workforce, reducing income in the healthcare industry, yada yada yada.
You have to remember that the corporations are now global. And there will always, on this overpopulated globe, be some new person to step in and do the work when the older worker gets sick and falls out of line. Slave owners had an economic incentive to treat their slaves at least minimally well (and even then they often didn't) because they had an investment in the slave. If there had been a willing supply of new slaves, they'd have treated them even worse than they actually did.
Welcome to globalization on an overcrowded planet!
If people cannot afford healthcare, you have a) a sick/debilitated workforce not able to pay taxes or produce goods and services, thus affecting the economy, thus affecting the ability to maintain a healthy workforce, reducing income in the healthcare industry, yada yada yada.
You have to remember that the corporations are now global. And there will always, on this overpopulated globe, be some new person to step in and do the work when the older worker gets sick and falls out of line. Slave owners had an economic incentive to treat their slaves at least minimally well (and even then they often didn't) because they had an investment in the slave. If there had been a willing supply of new slaves, they'd have treated them even worse than they actually did.
Welcome to globalization on an overcrowded planet!
Jack, step back and look beyond politics. Look to where all the money flows...
We all know that this country and it's politics have been taken over by VERY powerful, elitist forces. This is not the first time it has happened. Over our history economic royalists have tried to take control over and over again.
So, once again, it's up to us, the common people, just like in the late 18th century, to take back what is ours.
We are this country. We are the reason that a country like this exists. Please look back to our founding fathers for inspiration, and you'll find a feeling of kinship.
But, please, whatever you do, NEVER give up. There are a lot of us out there who know just how you feel.
cheers!
Jack, step back and look beyond politics. Look to where all the money flows...
We all know that this country and it's politics have been taken over by VERY powerful, elitist forces. This is not the first time it has happened. Over our history economic royalists have tried to take control over and over again.
So, once again, it's up to us, the common people, just like in the late 18th century, to take back what is ours.
We are this country. We are the reason that a country like this exists. Please look back to our founding fathers for inspiration, and you'll find a feeling of kinship.
But, please, whatever you do, NEVER give up. There are a lot of us out there who know just how you feel.
cheers!
Of course, having a giant patient database just screams Big Brother, but it would help.
dieselcreek | 11.18.04 - 5:48 pm | #
These already exist for Medicare patients. They are mined by things called Quality Improvement Organizations in each state. They find quality indicators and best practices and advocate those findings to health care providers. Does an insurance company do that? No.
BTW keeping that data private is taken very very seriously.
Of course, having a giant patient database just screams Big Brother, but it would help.
dieselcreek | 11.18.04 - 5:48 pm | #
These already exist for Medicare patients. They are mined by things called Quality Improvement Organizations in each state. They find quality indicators and best practices and advocate those findings to health care providers. Does an insurance company do that? No.
BTW keeping that data private is taken very very seriously.
Cervantes:
I'm not going to take up too much space talking about this here. I'm considering a diary on Kos, or even starting a blog. Would anybody visit if I did that?
I always enjoy your posts and I'd definitely visit. And I hope you'll choose the blog route, 'cause I'm finding DKos to be more frustrating and ungainly all the time. Plus, you could get linked to by the "Eschatonians" summary page.
Cervantes:
I'm not going to take up too much space talking about this here. I'm considering a diary on Kos, or even starting a blog. Would anybody visit if I did that?
I always enjoy your posts and I'd definitely visit. And I hope you'll choose the blog route, 'cause I'm finding DKos to be more frustrating and ungainly all the time. Plus, you could get linked to by the "Eschatonians" summary page.
A group of UC Berkley statistians say 10000 to 1 the Florida election results are cooked. But over at the Black Hole of Atrios its all glib chat about the finer points of taxes and insurance. Excuse me, but WTF?
A group of UC Berkley statistians say 10000 to 1 the Florida election results are cooked. But over at the Black Hole of Atrios its all glib chat about the finer points of taxes and insurance. Excuse me, but WTF?
cervantes - I'd most definitely visit because it is complicated. That's always been pretty obvious to me. There are as many factors as there are people and health issues.
cervantes - I'd most definitely visit because it is complicated. That's always been pretty obvious to me. There are as many factors as there are people and health issues.
I'm telling you, I think people are wasting time trying to think of a private insurance model that will work. The government will have much less overhead i.e. Medicare. I worked with insurance and had much less trouble dealing with Medicare than with private insurance companies.
boz is right.
How much money do you all think it costs just to figure out these risk pools and pricing schemes?
And how much does it cost for the insured to pick up the tab for the uninsured?
And don't those Health Savings Accounts carry an administration fee? So that nullifies the pre-tax advantage.
I have a high-deductable policy - and I most certainly will not engage in preventive care, after discovering this year how affordable "preventive" things like colonoscopies, mammagrams, mole removal, dental check ups, & blood tests cost.
I spent over $3000 on the above things because a "primary" doctor made it seem like these were just good precautionary measure for someone age 50.
Now I will just wait until I clearly have some big ol cancerous tumor (maybe a uterine tumor?) before I go see someone.
And let my catastrophic post-$7500-coverage kick in.
If I can still afford catastropic coverage.
I'm telling you, I think people are wasting time trying to think of a private insurance model that will work. The government will have much less overhead i.e. Medicare. I worked with insurance and had much less trouble dealing with Medicare than with private insurance companies.
boz is right.
How much money do you all think it costs just to figure out these risk pools and pricing schemes?
And how much does it cost for the insured to pick up the tab for the uninsured?
And don't those Health Savings Accounts carry an administration fee? So that nullifies the pre-tax advantage.
I have a high-deductable policy - and I most certainly will not engage in preventive care, after discovering this year how affordable "preventive" things like colonoscopies, mammagrams, mole removal, dental check ups, & blood tests cost.
I spent over $3000 on the above things because a "primary" doctor made it seem like these were just good precautionary measure for someone age 50.
Now I will just wait until I clearly have some big ol cancerous tumor (maybe a uterine tumor?) before I go see someone.
And let my catastrophic post-$7500-coverage kick in.
If I can still afford catastropic coverage.
with rare exceptions it is not possible for anyone to accurately predict how many health problems an individual will experience.
those exceptions are increasingly common. As the medical profession exploits the results of the Human Genome Project, it will become easier and easier to predict future health problems.
As an example: along with about 1 in every 300 Americans, I carry a genetic mutation which causes my body to absorb too much iron from my diet. Iron accumulation in the bloodstream can lead to damage to internal organs, and sometimes to cancer.
In the past, this condition was rarely diagnosed, with the consequence that people frequently died in their fifties and sixties from the secondary complications, the primary cause never having been diagnosed. This is a condition that is inexpensive to diagnose and treat if caught early enough, and genetic testing is now available.
It's even less expensive, though, to not diagnose or treat the condition at all, and just consign the affected segment of the population to the consequences. They'll just show up as part of the heart disease, or liver disease, or kidney disease, or cancer statistics.
So it really doesn't matter whether health can be predicted a priori. Many conditions that aren't predictable now will be predictable soon, and the choice society will have to face at that point is whether to treat the afflicted as human beings, or merely as some sort of subhuman wildlife to be written off as defective.
If we continue to allow insurance companies to determine who gets medical care and who doesn't, within a generation we'll be living in a Fourth Reich.
with rare exceptions it is not possible for anyone to accurately predict how many health problems an individual will experience.
those exceptions are increasingly common. As the medical profession exploits the results of the Human Genome Project, it will become easier and easier to predict future health problems.
As an example: along with about 1 in every 300 Americans, I carry a genetic mutation which causes my body to absorb too much iron from my diet. Iron accumulation in the bloodstream can lead to damage to internal organs, and sometimes to cancer.
In the past, this condition was rarely diagnosed, with the consequence that people frequently died in their fifties and sixties from the secondary complications, the primary cause never having been diagnosed. This is a condition that is inexpensive to diagnose and treat if caught early enough, and genetic testing is now available.
It's even less expensive, though, to not diagnose or treat the condition at all, and just consign the affected segment of the population to the consequences. They'll just show up as part of the heart disease, or liver disease, or kidney disease, or cancer statistics.
So it really doesn't matter whether health can be predicted a priori. Many conditions that aren't predictable now will be predictable soon, and the choice society will have to face at that point is whether to treat the afflicted as human beings, or merely as some sort of subhuman wildlife to be written off as defective.
If we continue to allow insurance companies to determine who gets medical care and who doesn't, within a generation we'll be living in a Fourth Reich.
Well the discussion on NewsHour about Iran just scared the shit outta me. Some guy likened the *potential nuclear weapons buildup* to Hitler's parading of weapons.
More scare-mongering. This is sickening. Fuck.
Well the discussion on NewsHour about Iran just scared the shit outta me. Some guy likened the *potential nuclear weapons buildup* to Hitler's parading of weapons.
More scare-mongering. This is sickening. Fuck.
dieselcreek - What a great comment. Thank you for that. I just loved it.
Things are not as bad as they could be. If you were an immigrant in New York in 1904, chances are that you were working in a sweat shop or doing piece work with your entire family just to put food on the table.
That's one of the reasons that it is difficult to sell our point to some people. There are plenty of abuses but they are not as obvious as they once were.
dieselcreek - What a great comment. Thank you for that. I just loved it.
Things are not as bad as they could be. If you were an immigrant in New York in 1904, chances are that you were working in a sweat shop or doing piece work with your entire family just to put food on the table.
That's one of the reasons that it is difficult to sell our point to some people. There are plenty of abuses but they are not as obvious as they once were.
So now we should all thank jebus we weren't alive in the sweat shop days. Geesus, what the hell kool aid are you drinking?
So now we should all thank jebus we weren't alive in the sweat shop days. Geesus, what the hell kool aid are you drinking?
Hey everybody relax, with Bush's committment to science and research we will probably solve all health problems in the next 4 years...
Hey everybody relax, with Bush's committment to science and research we will probably solve all health problems in the next 4 years...
Jeez, Dawna, I dont' know why you are so mad at me simply because you were among those saying that people who voted for Bush don't deserve health care. There were a lot of people saying that red states shouldn't be allowed coverage.
My quarrel is with that attitude. I'm sorry you are so mad at me. I'm not making light of your problems by any means. By the same token, I have friends with a sick kid and this is a red state. What would you do about that? You and the others arguing that red states don't deserve to be part of the America and shouldn't be allowed to be part of a universal health care system?
If you want to go off on me, fine. I'm just telling you and everyone else with that attitude that it gets us right here: at each others' throats.
Never mind. I'll just shut down and let y'all have at it. I can't fight this anymore. It's bad enough that I am just as devastated as anyone in a so-called blue state. It is 10 times worse to constantly be made to feel that those of us who don't live in states where Kerry won are somehow more responsible for what happened. I just can't do it anymore.
Y'all will have to excuse me.
Jeez, Dawna, I dont' know why you are so mad at me simply because you were among those saying that people who voted for Bush don't deserve health care. There were a lot of people saying that red states shouldn't be allowed coverage.
My quarrel is with that attitude. I'm sorry you are so mad at me. I'm not making light of your problems by any means. By the same token, I have friends with a sick kid and this is a red state. What would you do about that? You and the others arguing that red states don't deserve to be part of the America and shouldn't be allowed to be part of a universal health care system?
If you want to go off on me, fine. I'm just telling you and everyone else with that attitude that it gets us right here: at each others' throats.
Never mind. I'll just shut down and let y'all have at it. I can't fight this anymore. It's bad enough that I am just as devastated as anyone in a so-called blue state. It is 10 times worse to constantly be made to feel that those of us who don't live in states where Kerry won are somehow more responsible for what happened. I just can't do it anymore.
Y'all will have to excuse me.
So now we should all thank jebus we weren't alive in the sweat shop days. Geesus, what the hell kool aid are you drinking?
Rrrrowllll-Cat fight
So now we should all thank jebus we weren't alive in the sweat shop days. Geesus, what the hell kool aid are you drinking?
Rrrrowllll-Cat fight
Dawna-
Take a break. Be with your kid.
It's only a blog.
.
Dawna-
Take a break. Be with your kid.
It's only a blog.
.
Josh is having a brawl over at TPM
He already has the answer for NH-GOP congress critters,,, head on over and see if you can lend a hand...
Makes for wicked fun reading...
Josh is having a brawl over at TPM
He already has the answer for NH-GOP congress critters,,, head on over and see if you can lend a hand...
Makes for wicked fun reading...
WOOT! Give us a boobie bouncing past the Grilled Cheeze....!!
Nothing is news till it gets Boobied...
Huge fan of the booby. I send everyone on my list the latest boobie, since most of them don't understand how vital they are and wouldn't know where to look . Because of me , their life is better and has more vitality.
Thanks WOOT .
WOOT! Give us a boobie bouncing past the Grilled Cheeze....!!
Nothing is news till it gets Boobied...
Huge fan of the booby. I send everyone on my list the latest boobie, since most of them don't understand how vital they are and wouldn't know where to look . Because of me , their life is better and has more vitality.
Thanks WOOT .
Thank you, Tena!
I'm tired if being called a stupid idiot who is somehow undeserving of the same respect as those enlightened folks living in the Blue states.
Come on people! Don't you know that the whole red & blue thing is being used by Rove to tear apart the Democrats?!
There are LOTS of us living in Red states.
Thank you, Tena!
I'm tired if being called a stupid idiot who is somehow undeserving of the same respect as those enlightened folks living in the Blue states.
Come on people! Don't you know that the whole red & blue thing is being used by Rove to tear apart the Democrats?!
There are LOTS of us living in Red states.
"One could argue...that talented, energetic journalists digging for truth have never been scarcer in our craft." -- Lou Dobbs, today.
Hallelujah.
"One could argue...that talented, energetic journalists digging for truth have never been scarcer in our craft." -- Lou Dobbs, today.
Hallelujah.
Tena: five or ten more years of the presiding economic agenda will take care of that.
Tena: five or ten more years of the presiding economic agenda will take care of that.
Hey everybody relax, with Bush's committment to science and research we will probably solve all health problems in the next 4 years...
Keep the bad news coming.
On a happier note, I just saw Clinton speak at the dedication of his library.
Damn. That man is good.
Hey everybody relax, with Bush's committment to science and research we will probably solve all health problems in the next 4 years...
Keep the bad news coming.
On a happier note, I just saw Clinton speak at the dedication of his library.
Damn. That man is good.
People are profoundly dissatisfied with the healthcare system in the US, but - and here is the catch - as long as their own co-pays are not too high and they like their provider they remain apathetic and don't protest. Health care was the number 4 issue in the Presidential Election. The next round of profit taking by the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical industry will only result in a popular revolt if the language of medicine as a business is replaced as medicine as a service by anti-Bush majority.
Remember - becoming sick is the one minority we will all eventually join.
"The Dream of reason did not take power into account." Paul Starr: The Social Transformation of American Medicine
People are profoundly dissatisfied with the healthcare system in the US, but - and here is the catch - as long as their own co-pays are not too high and they like their provider they remain apathetic and don't protest. Health care was the number 4 issue in the Presidential Election. The next round of profit taking by the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical industry will only result in a popular revolt if the language of medicine as a business is replaced as medicine as a service by anti-Bush majority.
Remember - becoming sick is the one minority we will all eventually join.
"The Dream of reason did not take power into account." Paul Starr: The Social Transformation of American Medicine
Come on people! Don't you know that the whole red & blue thing is being used by Rove to tear apart the Democrats?!
Clinton also spoke to the divide between repubs and Dems.
I'm weeping. Bush, go fuck yourself.
Come on people! Don't you know that the whole red & blue thing is being used by Rove to tear apart the Democrats?!
Clinton also spoke to the divide between repubs and Dems.
I'm weeping. Bush, go fuck yourself.
Dawna, Tena is right. Please chill.
Reg, I agree- this whole red/blue state is a false dichotomy, which I believe is based on the divide and conquer theory- i.e alienate us from each other, create divisiveness in order to cloud the fact that we have common ground.
Dawna, Tena is right. Please chill.
Reg, I agree- this whole red/blue state is a false dichotomy, which I believe is based on the divide and conquer theory- i.e alienate us from each other, create divisiveness in order to cloud the fact that we have common ground.
Incidentally, the destruction of the public health system is one major element of the destruction of the public medical assurance system. Harry Truman is waiting for all of the suckers, on the other side, and will himself, with his own two hands, make sure the villains go to the right place.
And pie, your receipt is on the thread below.
Gotta go make sure Arthur doesn't fall into the half-drained pool.
Incidentally, the destruction of the public health system is one major element of the destruction of the public medical assurance system. Harry Truman is waiting for all of the suckers, on the other side, and will himself, with his own two hands, make sure the villains go to the right place.
And pie, your receipt is on the thread below.
Gotta go make sure Arthur doesn't fall into the half-drained pool.
Wow! With endorsements from Philalethes and Tena, I have to do it. I'll probably get around to setting something up on Sunday (I'm out of town tomorrow and Saturday.) I'll come back and let you know where to go then. Thanks for the support.
Wow! With endorsements from Philalethes and Tena, I have to do it. I'll probably get around to setting something up on Sunday (I'm out of town tomorrow and Saturday.) I'll come back and let you know where to go then. Thanks for the support.
GWPDA, saw it. Kudos.
GWPDA, saw it. Kudos.
Well, if the catastrophic happens and employers start dumping health insurance as a benefit because they don't get the tax breaks anymore, if we have 50% of the population without health insurance, I would say the rethugs might be in trouble.
The dems need to distance themselves from all this, vote against these cuts...don't give them any ammunition.
And we have to stop nominating Senators to run for President. The last senator to get elected without any executive office experience was JFK. Generals or Governors. I like Wes Clark/Barack Obama 08'.
Well, if the catastrophic happens and employers start dumping health insurance as a benefit because they don't get the tax breaks anymore, if we have 50% of the population without health insurance, I would say the rethugs might be in trouble.
The dems need to distance themselves from all this, vote against these cuts...don't give them any ammunition.
And we have to stop nominating Senators to run for President. The last senator to get elected without any executive office experience was JFK. Generals or Governors. I like Wes Clark/Barack Obama 08'.
Dawna, hang in there
Dawna, hang in there
pie,
I didn't mean that Rove created the idea, but he certainly has used it to his benefit, spinning the whole morals issues, etc to divide & conquer, as no imagination says.
We know the Repubs have lots and lots of divisive issues amongst themselves, but they's managed to unite, as unlikely as that seems.
We're talking GEOGRAPHY here, people. Come on!
pie,
I didn't mean that Rove created the idea, but he certainly has used it to his benefit, spinning the whole morals issues, etc to divide & conquer, as no imagination says.
We know the Repubs have lots and lots of divisive issues amongst themselves, but they's managed to unite, as unlikely as that seems.
We're talking GEOGRAPHY here, people. Come on!
It seems to me that in and about this discussion one thing never really seems to be said by these guys. Medical costs are damn expensive and continue growing. HMO's were supposed to assist in reducing costs. Well, we can see that they have been dramatically effective in doing so. The people end up being soaked in one direction or another, why do we not see a Bush initiative to dramatically reduce the cost of care? Without being overly nasty about it, I keep thinking that the insurance companies and medical care industries have carte blanche without explaining themselves.
Means test the patient, hell, means test the industry from the pill givers to the equipment manufacturers. ANd if the costs are truly that terrible, then I think that it will need to be discussed as a social issue in lieu of dickering around with the patients hard earned cash.
It seems to me that in and about this discussion one thing never really seems to be said by these guys. Medical costs are damn expensive and continue growing. HMO's were supposed to assist in reducing costs. Well, we can see that they have been dramatically effective in doing so. The people end up being soaked in one direction or another, why do we not see a Bush initiative to dramatically reduce the cost of care? Without being overly nasty about it, I keep thinking that the insurance companies and medical care industries have carte blanche without explaining themselves.
Means test the patient, hell, means test the industry from the pill givers to the equipment manufacturers. ANd if the costs are truly that terrible, then I think that it will need to be discussed as a social issue in lieu of dickering around with the patients hard earned cash.
Reg, I don't care who created the idea.
We need to counter it.
I'll be moving to a red/purple state in the next few months.
Reg, I don't care who created the idea.
We need to counter it.
I'll be moving to a red/purple state in the next few months.
dieselcreek yes I know that many feel like I do. Almost 60 million...just here in the US. Imagine the BILLIONS who feel the same way. SEEING and LIVING through the creep of fascism now on a global scale from the US OF FUCKING A of all places. Yes I'm angry but writing your "congressperson" will no longer work. They are bought and paid for and part of the "system" now anyway.
Yes, the thing on Iran IS scary. We WILL be there within 2 years. Just look at the fucking map. Where does Iran sit? IN THE FUCKING MIDDLE OF IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN. OF COURSE WE ARE FUCKING GOING THERE NEXT. Just imagine the Dean Scream speech only replacing it with Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba, Indonesia and on and on.
As the video on Knife Party by Barry said. This 'war on terror' is nothing more than a war against those who oppose global us domination. Nothing more.
"They hate us for our 'freedom'" Fuck if anything ever made me so sick it's that fucking repug mantra.
dieselcreek yes I know that many feel like I do. Almost 60 million...just here in the US. Imagine the BILLIONS who feel the same way. SEEING and LIVING through the creep of fascism now on a global scale from the US OF FUCKING A of all places. Yes I'm angry but writing your "congressperson" will no longer work. They are bought and paid for and part of the "system" now anyway.
Yes, the thing on Iran IS scary. We WILL be there within 2 years. Just look at the fucking map. Where does Iran sit? IN THE FUCKING MIDDLE OF IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN. OF COURSE WE ARE FUCKING GOING THERE NEXT. Just imagine the Dean Scream speech only replacing it with Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba, Indonesia and on and on.
As the video on Knife Party by Barry said. This 'war on terror' is nothing more than a war against those who oppose global us domination. Nothing more.
"They hate us for our 'freedom'" Fuck if anything ever made me so sick it's that fucking repug mantra.
Pie -
Yer leaving Michigan?
Pie -
Yer leaving Michigan?
I have no idea where I was when I wrote my last comment. Please disregard unless it makes complete sense to you.
I have no idea where I was when I wrote my last comment. Please disregard unless it makes complete sense to you.
no imagination
Tena- is a whiny and unrealistic. She said I stated something I never stated, so chill yourself. We have enough whiny asshole in congress supposedly representing us, we don't need people to come in here and bitch because we are not more sympathetic to those who have excluded us!
no imagination
Tena- is a whiny and unrealistic. She said I stated something I never stated, so chill yourself. We have enough whiny asshole in congress supposedly representing us, we don't need people to come in here and bitch because we are not more sympathetic to those who have excluded us!
Cervantes:
Go for it.
Cervantes:
Go for it.
OT: Josh Marshall (TPM) has been egging on the people in the effort to determine the few Rs that objected to the rule change which will allow DeLay to continue if he's indicted, aka "the Shays handful". Which brings up the question, what to call those who supported the rule change? I was thinking maybe the "DeLay handjob", but I think approval was by voice vote, which would make them the Delay ...., well shades of BJU, (Bob Jones University, of course).
OT: Josh Marshall (TPM) has been egging on the people in the effort to determine the few Rs that objected to the rule change which will allow DeLay to continue if he's indicted, aka "the Shays handful". Which brings up the question, what to call those who supported the rule change? I was thinking maybe the "DeLay handjob", but I think approval was by voice vote, which would make them the Delay ...., well shades of BJU, (Bob Jones University, of course).
Well, there already is a health insurance plan that takes care of all our problems: let people pay for their own preventive care and checkups and so on, and pay for the hospitalization care of those who are still young enough to work for the corporations or to make more people that will work in the future. Then give everybody else an arsenic pill on their 65th birthday. We'd have the cheapest system in the whole world.
Just kidding, of course, but it's important to remember that the health care costs come predominantly late in life and in the last year before death, and the longer people live the more likely it is that they need nursing home care which is very expensive. These are "the failures" of our successes. For example, before antibiotics there were hardly any people with severe Down syndrome that grew to adulthood. And much of medical research has similar effects of increasing health care costs in the longer run. Ultimately we have to have an open discussion about what to cover in expenses, and how long to prolong life in cases where it is expensive.
Well, there already is a health insurance plan that takes care of all our problems: let people pay for their own preventive care and checkups and so on, and pay for the hospitalization care of those who are still young enough to work for the corporations or to make more people that will work in the future. Then give everybody else an arsenic pill on their 65th birthday. We'd have the cheapest system in the whole world.
Just kidding, of course, but it's important to remember that the health care costs come predominantly late in life and in the last year before death, and the longer people live the more likely it is that they need nursing home care which is very expensive. These are "the failures" of our successes. For example, before antibiotics there were hardly any people with severe Down syndrome that grew to adulthood. And much of medical research has similar effects of increasing health care costs in the longer run. Ultimately we have to have an open discussion about what to cover in expenses, and how long to prolong life in cases where it is expensive.
You know, there is one tack I'm surprised I haven't heard being propounded. If health care costs could be externalized, (from a business point of view), then our companies would be better situated to compete in the global market.
You know, there is one tack I'm surprised I haven't heard being propounded. If health care costs could be externalized, (from a business point of view), then our companies would be better situated to compete in the global market.
Slightly o.t., but according to Josh Marshall, the vote to let DeLay stay even if indicted was done on a voice vote. And now many gop house reps refuse to tell their constituents how they voted saying it was a "private vote". Isn't that special? What are they afraid of? Doesn't the gop bestride the world like a colossus, all powerful, so why are they trying to hide their vote?
Slightly o.t., but according to Josh Marshall, the vote to let DeLay stay even if indicted was done on a voice vote. And now many gop house reps refuse to tell their constituents how they voted saying it was a "private vote". Isn't that special? What are they afraid of? Doesn't the gop bestride the world like a colossus, all powerful, so why are they trying to hide their vote?
Jack -
I dunno Bro... The motherfuckers will never get this Marine to quit. Never understood quit, can't or NO.
Maybe this fucking disease just reinforced that for me. There ain't a fucking thing out there that I can't beat.
It's all in my time. My God and I own my time. Not some fucking politician.
Semper FI
Jack -
I dunno Bro... The motherfuckers will never get this Marine to quit. Never understood quit, can't or NO.
Maybe this fucking disease just reinforced that for me. There ain't a fucking thing out there that I can't beat.
It's all in my time. My God and I own my time. Not some fucking politician.
Semper FI
Ek:
I know the feeling.
Ek:
I know the feeling.
To clarify my previous post, it was intended as sarcasm, and I for one don't want to have an arsenic pill at my retirement party or be left untreated in old age.
But when we look at costs carefully we have to address the issue of end-care. That's where the costs are.
It's also useful to look at the provider side when we discuss costs. The U.S. physicians are paid considerably more in relative terms than physicians anywhere else in the world, and the pharmaceutical companies make enormous profits. (They always argue that they need to charge a lot because of risk in developing new products, but if this was true, we'd expect the average profit level in the industry to be much lower as the failing firms would make losses.)
To clarify my previous post, it was intended as sarcasm, and I for one don't want to have an arsenic pill at my retirement party or be left untreated in old age.
But when we look at costs carefully we have to address the issue of end-care. That's where the costs are.
It's also useful to look at the provider side when we discuss costs. The U.S. physicians are paid considerably more in relative terms than physicians anywhere else in the world, and the pharmaceutical companies make enormous profits. (They always argue that they need to charge a lot because of risk in developing new products, but if this was true, we'd expect the average profit level in the industry to be much lower as the failing firms would make losses.)
Yer leaving Michigan?
Yeah. Six months or so.
Yer leaving Michigan?
Yeah. Six months or so.
Health care will only work to the left's short-term political advantage if more politicians get out in front. While universal health care was a Democratic platform plank for years, but they dropped it (I think just this cycle).
One of the reasons this can't easily work in our favor quite yet is the idea that the government can't do the job. Keep in mind that the lowest overhead health care payer is Medicare (about 3% compared to 15-30% for traditional insurers). Keep in mind that what little research that has been done suggests that for-profit health care is lower quality than not-for-profit (1,200 to 4,000 dialysis patients die in this country each year because they use a for-profit dialysis center).
Corporate profit is one of the most important factors driving health care costs. In 1999 health care administration costs were over $290 billion (we spent $275 billion on defense that year). We're now estimated to spend $1442 per person on HC adminstration, compared to $418 per capita in Canada.
Honestly, I don't think we'll be able to win on the moral argument that the government should be in the business of health care as a right. I think this is emblematic of the left's problem overall (framing and all that), but what'll drive us toward a better health care system is the fact that the current ridiculously expensive system is driving employers to the poorhouse. See, for example, GM, which pays more for health than steel:
http://tinyurl.com/67e74
Health care will only work to the left's short-term political advantage if more politicians get out in front. While universal health care was a Democratic platform plank for years, but they dropped it (I think just this cycle).
One of the reasons this can't easily work in our favor quite yet is the idea that the government can't do the job. Keep in mind that the lowest overhead health care payer is Medicare (about 3% compared to 15-30% for traditional insurers). Keep in mind that what little research that has been done suggests that for-profit health care is lower quality than not-for-profit (1,200 to 4,000 dialysis patients die in this country each year because they use a for-profit dialysis center).
Corporate profit is one of the most important factors driving health care costs. In 1999 health care administration costs were over $290 billion (we spent $275 billion on defense that year). We're now estimated to spend $1442 per person on HC adminstration, compared to $418 per capita in Canada.
Honestly, I don't think we'll be able to win on the moral argument that the government should be in the business of health care as a right. I think this is emblematic of the left's problem overall (framing and all that), but what'll drive us toward a better health care system is the fact that the current ridiculously expensive system is driving employers to the poorhouse. See, for example, GM, which pays more for health than steel:
http://tinyurl.com/67e74
"One could argue...that talented, energetic journalists digging for truth have never been scarcer in our craft." -- Lou Dobbs, today.
want to second that. with all due credit to the rare exceptions.
damn, what, has atrios a degree in economics or sumth'n? actually if i bear in on it i can almost understand it, sort of like when i read krugman. that's high endorsement from my ass.
i like means testing. novakula actually had me agreeing with him, when he stated it was ridiculous that he recieved soc. sec. benefits.
as i said earlier "you got nuth'n you got nuth'n to lose." then again there is clearly no gaining with this administration. as has been said, settle in for a bumpy ride. actually i think it's worse than that, and fits right into the dictionary definition of fascism i've read.
ah well, "Thought is your Enemy, Death is your only Freind" j. krishnamurti.
"One could argue...that talented, energetic journalists digging for truth have never been scarcer in our craft." -- Lou Dobbs, today.
want to second that. with all due credit to the rare exceptions.
damn, what, has atrios a degree in economics or sumth'n? actually if i bear in on it i can almost understand it, sort of like when i read krugman. that's high endorsement from my ass.
i like means testing. novakula actually had me agreeing with him, when he stated it was ridiculous that he recieved soc. sec. benefits.
as i said earlier "you got nuth'n you got nuth'n to lose." then again there is clearly no gaining with this administration. as has been said, settle in for a bumpy ride. actually i think it's worse than that, and fits right into the dictionary definition of fascism i've read.
ah well, "Thought is your Enemy, Death is your only Freind" j. krishnamurti.
Yeah. Six months or so.
pie
Well if you head to IN you won't have far to travel. The weather in the winter sucks though.
Yeah. Six months or so.
pie
Well if you head to IN you won't have far to travel. The weather in the winter sucks though.
That blows. I'm assuming a job or something like that. Or family.
I'm kinda looking forward to going to New Mexico this next year - lookin at retiring there. I hope sooner rather than later.
Ya just never know tho...
That blows. I'm assuming a job or something like that. Or family.
I'm kinda looking forward to going to New Mexico this next year - lookin at retiring there. I hope sooner rather than later.
Ya just never know tho...
Echidne, of course you were being sarcastic. Not only is end care costing us a great deal, but so are pharmaceutical costs. End of life care is a delicate issue to debate because the question really comes down to analyzing a human life in terms of a cost benefit ratio, which seems harsh. However, it is something that seriously needs to be addressed. Also, we need to reavaluate the tax code as far as big pharma is involved.
Echidne, of course you were being sarcastic. Not only is end care costing us a great deal, but so are pharmaceutical costs. End of life care is a delicate issue to debate because the question really comes down to analyzing a human life in terms of a cost benefit ratio, which seems harsh. However, it is something that seriously needs to be addressed. Also, we need to reavaluate the tax code as far as big pharma is involved.
Jeez, Dawna, I dont' know why you are so mad at me simply because you were among those saying that people who voted for Bush don't deserve health care. There were a lot of people saying that red states shouldn't be allowed coverage.
TENA-
I want you to post where I said this. I have been excluded, almost lost my child because of it. I know what it's like Does she? Post where I said this, or stop saying it. Tena STOP drinking the GOP kool aid.
I'll be waiting for the post... I wont hold my breath though.
Jeez, Dawna, I dont' know why you are so mad at me simply because you were among those saying that people who voted for Bush don't deserve health care. There were a lot of people saying that red states shouldn't be allowed coverage.
TENA-
I want you to post where I said this. I have been excluded, almost lost my child because of it. I know what it's like Does she? Post where I said this, or stop saying it. Tena STOP drinking the GOP kool aid.
I'll be waiting for the post... I wont hold my breath though.
Somebody once asked John Steinbeck
what he most would have liked to
be in his life and he replied
"Ambassador to Oz."
Lately, me too.
Somebody once asked John Steinbeck
what he most would have liked to
be in his life and he replied
"Ambassador to Oz."
Lately, me too.
TOTALLY OT:
Lou just had Fallwell on AGAIN , and I had to write to him . Maybe he should get something from more than one of us . Remember , always click that Todays Comment is Positive ...
Lou:
Can I assume that you will be having someone like Barry Lynn drop in tomorrow night to talk about how the so-called Christian Right are working to degrade constitutional protection against theocracy and the separation of church and state ?
Perhaps the radical hate works dedicated to denying rights to 10 % of our brothers and sisters?
Might you find an expert to speak about the various Rapturists occupying high level positions in the US Army and Executive?
Will there be in future any discussion on the creationists raising false alarms about Evolution in defiance of reputable science?
I ask only because I keep seeing Jerry Falwell being offered another opportunity to voice his cause, essentially free advertising for his Multi-national Fundamentalist Corporation (in the guise of being a man of faith) that you might take a stab at fair balance rather than granting yet another fringe extremist even more influence on the people of the nation as if it is in any way News.
Falwell is neither Christian nor Right.
TOTALLY OT:
Lou just had Fallwell on AGAIN , and I had to write to him . Maybe he should get something from more than one of us . Remember , always click that Todays Comment is Positive ...
Lou:
Can I assume that you will be having someone like Barry Lynn drop in tomorrow night to talk about how the so-called Christian Right are working to degrade constitutional protection against theocracy and the separation of church and state ?
Perhaps the radical hate works dedicated to denying rights to 10 % of our brothers and sisters?
Might you find an expert to speak about the various Rapturists occupying high level positions in the US Army and Executive?
Will there be in future any discussion on the creationists raising false alarms about Evolution in defiance of reputable science?
I ask only because I keep seeing Jerry Falwell being offered another opportunity to voice his cause, essentially free advertising for his Multi-national Fundamentalist Corporation (in the guise of being a man of faith) that you might take a stab at fair balance rather than granting yet another fringe extremist even more influence on the people of the nation as if it is in any way News.
Falwell is neither Christian nor Right.
That blows. I'm assuming a job or something like that.
Yes.
That blows. I'm assuming a job or something like that.
Yes.
theodoric,
"Democrats had a long time in which they could have done it, but didn't."
When could dems have "done it"? What time frame?
theodoric,
"Democrats had a long time in which they could have done it, but didn't."
When could dems have "done it"? What time frame?
Oh, I now see how posts can be repeated. That's another story.
Dawna, you are on the same side and for some reason cross-posting.
Tena is not a republican.
I've seen you post here before and wonder why you would even say that.
Oh, I now see how posts can be repeated. That's another story.
Dawna, you are on the same side and for some reason cross-posting.
Tena is not a republican.
I've seen you post here before and wonder why you would even say that.
Certainly, Tena is no repub and I understand where she is coming from. Demonizing the "other," breaking everything down into false dichotomies of red vs blue is simply counter-productive.
Certainly, Tena is no repub and I understand where she is coming from. Demonizing the "other," breaking everything down into false dichotomies of red vs blue is simply counter-productive.
Why would she say I said I wanted to exclude people from healthcare because they didn't vote for Kerry. Sorry but she is mistaken. She needs to put up or shut up. Post where I said it. if you can't get that it's not really my problem. She is not going to post that I said something I never said. My family has been a victim of the healthcare crisis, I wonder how many of you in here actually have been. Worry for your kid living or dying for years at a time then talk to me.
Why would she say I said I wanted to exclude people from healthcare because they didn't vote for Kerry. Sorry but she is mistaken. She needs to put up or shut up. Post where I said it. if you can't get that it's not really my problem. She is not going to post that I said something I never said. My family has been a victim of the healthcare crisis, I wonder how many of you in here actually have been. Worry for your kid living or dying for years at a time then talk to me.
A.s.H., I also had to write a letter a few weeks ago expressing outrage that Falwell was on Anderson Cooper 360. Mine was focused on the extreme insult Falwell's presence represented to the country after he blamed 9-11 on gays and the ACLU (among others). He's an absolute disgrace to the country and should not receive a free national platform from which to preach his hatred and promote his satanic cult.
A.s.H., I also had to write a letter a few weeks ago expressing outrage that Falwell was on Anderson Cooper 360. Mine was focused on the extreme insult Falwell's presence represented to the country after he blamed 9-11 on gays and the ACLU (among others). He's an absolute disgrace to the country and should not receive a free national platform from which to preach his hatred and promote his satanic cult.
Cuba, one of the most threatened nations on earth, spends more on health care than military.
Well, true, but Cuba's only real threat comes from the US, and no realistic amount of defense spending would make the slightest bit of difference against that threat.
Cuba, one of the most threatened nations on earth, spends more on health care than military.
Well, true, but Cuba's only real threat comes from the US, and no realistic amount of defense spending would make the slightest bit of difference against that threat.
Is it a full moon or something?
Tena is a Republican?
I was just starting to come out of my post election catatonic depression. Next thing you know Pie will be a John Bircher.
Help me Mr. Wizard!
Is it a full moon or something?
Tena is a Republican?
I was just starting to come out of my post election catatonic depression. Next thing you know Pie will be a John Bircher.
Help me Mr. Wizard!
Just as good as Buchanan on MSNBC today durring the Clinton Library Dedication.
Just as good as Buchanan on MSNBC today durring the Clinton Library Dedication.
I wonder how many of you in here actually have been.
You don't want to go there, darling.
I wonder how many of you in here actually have been.
You don't want to go there, darling.
Well, true, but Cuba's only real threat comes from the US, and no realistic amount of defense spending would make the slightest bit of difference against that threat.
cmdicely
So who's threatening the US? Besides 'terrorists', I mean.
Well, true, but Cuba's only real threat comes from the US, and no realistic amount of defense spending would make the slightest bit of difference against that threat.
cmdicely
So who's threatening the US? Besides 'terrorists', I mean.
Somebody remind me:
Other than denying the holocaust and
working as an apologist for the only
president ever to resign in disgrace,
what are Pat Buchanan's qualifications
to lecture us on anything?
Somebody remind me:
Other than denying the holocaust and
working as an apologist for the only
president ever to resign in disgrace,
what are Pat Buchanan's qualifications
to lecture us on anything?
You don't want to go there, darling.
pie
I have a name and it isn't darling and I already fucking went there!
You don't want to go there, darling.
pie
I have a name and it isn't darling and I already fucking went there!
"We meet in the midst of a nation brought to the verge of moral, political and material ruin....Corruption dominates the ballot box, the [state] legislatures and the Congress and touches even the bench.....The newspapers are largely subsidized or muzzled, public opinion silenced....The fruits of the toil of millions are boldly stolen to build up colossal fortunes for a few."
You could say that today and it would be as true as it was in 1892. It was the People's(Populists) Party platform issued on the 4th of July 1892.
I suggest you read Bill Moyers "This is Your Story - The Progressive Story of America. Pass It On." If you read it before, read it again. You'll see how bad things have been and how much better things can get. As Moyers says "Karl Rove isn't tougher than Mark Hanna was in his time and a hundred years from now some historian will be wondering how it was that Norquist and Company got away with it as long as they did."
http://www.commondreams.org/view...s03/0610-
11.htm
"We meet in the midst of a nation brought to the verge of moral, political and material ruin....Corruption dominates the ballot box, the [state] legislatures and the Congress and touches even the bench.....The newspapers are largely subsidized or muzzled, public opinion silenced....The fruits of the toil of millions are boldly stolen to build up colossal fortunes for a few."
You could say that today and it would be as true as it was in 1892. It was the People's(Populists) Party platform issued on the 4th of July 1892.
I suggest you read Bill Moyers "This is Your Story - The Progressive Story of America. Pass It On." If you read it before, read it again. You'll see how bad things have been and how much better things can get. As Moyers says "Karl Rove isn't tougher than Mark Hanna was in his time and a hundred years from now some historian will be wondering how it was that Norquist and Company got away with it as long as they did."
http://www.commondreams.org/view...s03/0610-
11.htm
pie,
You don't want to go there, darling.
Yup.
pie,
You don't want to go there, darling.
Yup.
Well, Dawna I'm sorry.
Everyone has problems. Everyone.
Keep criticizing everyone and see where that gets you.
Well, Dawna I'm sorry.
Everyone has problems. Everyone.
Keep criticizing everyone and see where that gets you.
When could dems have "done it"? What time frame?
oh, just about any time prior to 1980, when they had majorities in both houses of Congress.
When could dems have "done it"? What time frame?
oh, just about any time prior to 1980, when they had majorities in both houses of Congress.
Republicans love the poor just as they are - poor.
Universal health care assists social mobility, by allowing poor people to save over the long term without the risk of having it all sucked away by the illness of a family member. Thus universal health care is an affront to everything Republicans believe in - ie., grinding down the poor.
Republicans love the poor just as they are - poor.
Universal health care assists social mobility, by allowing poor people to save over the long term without the risk of having it all sucked away by the illness of a family member. Thus universal health care is an affront to everything Republicans believe in - ie., grinding down the poor.
Cuba, one of the most threatened nations on earth, spends more on health care than military.'
Why wasn't this brought up by the Kerry campaign???
Easy. Cuba is a Communist country, and one against which we have an embargo. It would be too easy for the right to accuse Kerry of being a commie for citing Cuba as an example. What an attack ad that would make!
Cuba, one of the most threatened nations on earth, spends more on health care than military.'
Why wasn't this brought up by the Kerry campaign???
Easy. Cuba is a Communist country, and one against which we have an embargo. It would be too easy for the right to accuse Kerry of being a commie for citing Cuba as an example. What an attack ad that would make!
May I recommend that all of you with clear skies this evening, grab your change purses and run outside and shake them at the new moon. This is a long hallowed invocation which will encourage the production of money for you.
With lots of money you will be able to buy decent health care.
Nobody will be cranky.
You will all be able to fill your tums with lots of good food and find the strength to fight on.
Can't hurt. Try it.
May I recommend that all of you with clear skies this evening, grab your change purses and run outside and shake them at the new moon. This is a long hallowed invocation which will encourage the production of money for you.
With lots of money you will be able to buy decent health care.
Nobody will be cranky.
You will all be able to fill your tums with lots of good food and find the strength to fight on.
Can't hurt. Try it.
Oh, this is fucking outrageous.
And hilarious.
Stick around, all. This is only going to get more interesting.
Oh, this is fucking outrageous.
And hilarious.
Stick around, all. This is only going to get more interesting.
silly steve,
He's a pundit. Now repeat after me: "Nixon was a great man. Reagan was a great man. George Bush is a great man." Remind yourself that, before the election, even Buchanan couldn't go there for Shrub.
silly steve,
He's a pundit. Now repeat after me: "Nixon was a great man. Reagan was a great man. George Bush is a great man." Remind yourself that, before the election, even Buchanan couldn't go there for Shrub.
In Canada, some of the biggest defenders of state-financed healthcare are businesses. They know that they would have to pick up the tab if government didn't.
Repubs do not want a federal health care program in any form. It would hurt their big-business base.
In Canada, some of the biggest defenders of state-financed healthcare are businesses. They know that they would have to pick up the tab if government didn't.
Repubs do not want a federal health care program in any form. It would hurt their big-business base.
It should be easy to dig some dirt on Falwell. His Liberty College was running up a big debt and Rev. Moon gave him the money to stay afloat by having some proxies buy up half the debt at far less than face value. And in doing so shafted 2500 bondholders. And Falwell has a very lavish lifestyle for a preacher. He probably has lots of dirt to hide.
It should be easy to dig some dirt on Falwell. His Liberty College was running up a big debt and Rev. Moon gave him the money to stay afloat by having some proxies buy up half the debt at far less than face value. And in doing so shafted 2500 bondholders. And Falwell has a very lavish lifestyle for a preacher. He probably has lots of dirt to hide.
NYMary:
Thanks. I knew there was something I
forgot.
BTW: Are you actually here as opposed
to teaching?
NYMary:
Thanks. I knew there was something I
forgot.
BTW: Are you actually here as opposed
to teaching?
Smallbottle,
That's what I don't get. Every small business in the country should be militating for a single-payer system. Every big business, too. And every un- or under-employed person. I just don't get it.
Smallbottle,
That's what I don't get. Every small business in the country should be militating for a single-payer system. Every big business, too. And every un- or under-employed person. I just don't get it.
Smallbottle, if everybody isn't careful, I'll be forced to explain IN DETAIL, the historical antecedents and current consequences and effects of Social Credit on the Canadian federal and provincial health care systems. Do you really want me to do that? It involves Big Bill Aberhart, New Zealand and Ernest Manning, along with radio Christianity, the Depression and the effects of the 1919 Winnipeg General Strike? Do you really want me to go thru this?
I thought not.
Instead, here's New Mexico Magazine's receipt for -
Cornbread, Chorizo, Pinon nut Stuffing:
1 T oil
1 lb chorizo
4 T butter
1 onion, chopped fine
1/4 c diced celery
4 green chiles, seeded, minced
6 garlic cloves, minced
1 t minced fresh thyme
1 t minced fresh sage
1 T chopped cilantro (optional)
1 c pinon nuts, toasted, chopped
8 c coarsely crumbled corn bread
1 c chicken or turkey stock
Heat oil, add chorizo, brown, remove, drain. Melt butter, add onions, celery, chiles, garlic, saute until transparent/soft. Remove from heat, add herbs. Pour mixture into bowl with chorizo, add cornbread and nuts. Moisten with stock. If necessary or desired, cool, add a couple of eggs. Stuff fowl.
Smallbottle, if everybody isn't careful, I'll be forced to explain IN DETAIL, the historical antecedents and current consequences and effects of Social Credit on the Canadian federal and provincial health care systems. Do you really want me to do that? It involves Big Bill Aberhart, New Zealand and Ernest Manning, along with radio Christianity, the Depression and the effects of the 1919 Winnipeg General Strike? Do you really want me to go thru this?
I thought not.
Instead, here's New Mexico Magazine's receipt for -
Cornbread, Chorizo, Pinon nut Stuffing:
1 T oil
1 lb chorizo
4 T butter
1 onion, chopped fine
1/4 c diced celery
4 green chiles, seeded, minced
6 garlic cloves, minced
1 t minced fresh thyme
1 t minced fresh sage
1 T chopped cilantro (optional)
1 c pinon nuts, toasted, chopped
8 c coarsely crumbled corn bread
1 c chicken or turkey stock
Heat oil, add chorizo, brown, remove, drain. Melt butter, add onions, celery, chiles, garlic, saute until transparent/soft. Remove from heat, add herbs. Pour mixture into bowl with chorizo, add cornbread and nuts. Moisten with stock. If necessary or desired, cool, add a couple of eggs. Stuff fowl.
So who's threatening the US? Besides 'terrorists', I mean.
Why besides terrorists? Even though the current administration may attack, well, completely the wrong countries and make the problem worse, terrorists are a real problem threatening the US, and changes in how much and how we spend money on our military can make a real difference in our ability to deal with that threat.
So who's threatening the US? Besides 'terrorists', I mean.
Why besides terrorists? Even though the current administration may attack, well, completely the wrong countries and make the problem worse, terrorists are a real problem threatening the US, and changes in how much and how we spend money on our military can make a real difference in our ability to deal with that threat.
steve,
yeah, I only teach Wednesday nights. It looks like I missed the nursing discussion on the last thread, which is probably just as well: I'm kinda militant.
Oh! And pastabagel trolled my blog! Told me I should be listening to jazz. Huh.
steve,
yeah, I only teach Wednesday nights. It looks like I missed the nursing discussion on the last thread, which is probably just as well: I'm kinda militant.
Oh! And pastabagel trolled my blog! Told me I should be listening to jazz. Huh.
Everyone has problems. Everyone.
Keep criticizing everyone and see where that gets you.
pie
Listen and read if you can. Tena said I supported excluding people from healthcare that did not vote for kerry. I did NOT say that. period. If she is going to put words in my mouth then I am going to challenge her to put the words up or shut up. Haven't you learned from bush that just because you repeat something doesn't make it true. Looking bushesque big time!
Everyone has problems. Everyone.
Keep criticizing everyone and see where that gets you.
pie
Listen and read if you can. Tena said I supported excluding people from healthcare that did not vote for kerry. I did NOT say that. period. If she is going to put words in my mouth then I am going to challenge her to put the words up or shut up. Haven't you learned from bush that just because you repeat something doesn't make it true. Looking bushesque big time!
The whole point of the US interventions now in progress and those in prospect is to put trip-wires in place which would set off mutually-assured-destruction nuclear replies when (not if) China begins to exert it's influence in in the middle east and the trans-Caucasus...
The whole point of the US interventions now in progress and those in prospect is to put trip-wires in place which would set off mutually-assured-destruction nuclear replies when (not if) China begins to exert it's influence in in the middle east and the trans-Caucasus...
oh, just about any time prior to 1980, when they had majorities in both houses of Congress.
Unfortunately, any time prior to 1980 any Democratic "majority" include a substantial number of southern Democrats that were to the right not only of the rest of the Democratic party but often the national GOP as well.
oh, just about any time prior to 1980, when they had majorities in both houses of Congress.
Unfortunately, any time prior to 1980 any Democratic "majority" include a substantial number of southern Democrats that were to the right not only of the rest of the Democratic party but often the national GOP as well.
And now many gop house reps refuse to tell their constituents how they voted saying it was a "private vote".
There's no point in even asking how someone voted on a voice vote. The fact that it was a voice vote says it all.
And now many gop house reps refuse to tell their constituents how they voted saying it was a "private vote".
There's no point in even asking how someone voted on a voice vote. The fact that it was a voice vote says it all.
NYMAry:
Jazz?
Hmm, he may have been that anonymous
anti-rock guy that showed up last
night.
Gotta go now for a couple of hours...
hope there isn't blood on the tracks
when I get back.
NYMAry:
Jazz?
Hmm, he may have been that anonymous
anti-rock guy that showed up last
night.
Gotta go now for a couple of hours...
hope there isn't blood on the tracks
when I get back.
I thought that as an American citizen you had the right to now how your congressperson voted on something. Or is that too weird. We pay their salaries, we elect them, we should know how they voted on something.
I thought that as an American citizen you had the right to now how your congressperson voted on something. Or is that too weird. We pay their salaries, we elect them, we should know how they voted on something.
Dawna, you don't understand how this thing works. You say something, pie and tena take it completely out of context, attribute something to you that you never said nor meant, then criticize you when you try and defend yourself, telling you that YOU are the one being critical when all you did was either bash bush or ask the dems not to be wimpy anymore. Got it? Oh, and go start your own blog so they don't have to hear your misguided comments in their pristine room.
Dawna, you don't understand how this thing works. You say something, pie and tena take it completely out of context, attribute something to you that you never said nor meant, then criticize you when you try and defend yourself, telling you that YOU are the one being critical when all you did was either bash bush or ask the dems not to be wimpy anymore. Got it? Oh, and go start your own blog so they don't have to hear your misguided comments in their pristine room.
Unfortunately, any time prior to 1980 any Democratic "majority" include a substantial number of southern Democrats that were to the right not only of the rest of the Democratic party but often the national GOP as well.
Of course, which is exactly the point I was trying to make.
But in those days, liberals were, if anything, even further to the left than they are today.
Self-congratulatory language about how Democrats see this or that or the other thing as a basic human right doesn't get us anywhere, except into constructing a list of exceptions and people who aren't "real Democrats".
Unfortunately, any time prior to 1980 any Democratic "majority" include a substantial number of southern Democrats that were to the right not only of the rest of the Democratic party but often the national GOP as well.
Of course, which is exactly the point I was trying to make.
But in those days, liberals were, if anything, even further to the left than they are today.
Self-congratulatory language about how Democrats see this or that or the other thing as a basic human right doesn't get us anywhere, except into constructing a list of exceptions and people who aren't "real Democrats".
You say something, pie and tena take it completely out of context
Bwahahahahahahaha.
You say something, pie and tena take it completely out of context
Bwahahahahahahaha.
Erin, Pie should mind his or her own business and whiny fifth grade tena can go fuck herself.
Erin, Pie should mind his or her own business and whiny fifth grade tena can go fuck herself.
ErinPDX -
Why, you little troublemaker you. Are you masquerading as something you're not? Are you in fact someone who has encountered grief and sorrow here because nobody loved you?
Stirring the pot is not a very nice thing to do, ErinPDX - and being nice is what so many of our visitors are all about....
ErinPDX -
Why, you little troublemaker you. Are you masquerading as something you're not? Are you in fact someone who has encountered grief and sorrow here because nobody loved you?
Stirring the pot is not a very nice thing to do, ErinPDX - and being nice is what so many of our visitors are all about....
The whole point of the US interventions now in progress and those in prospect is to put trip-wires in place which would set off mutually-assured-destruction nuclear replies when (not if) China begins to exert it's influence in in the middle east and the trans-Caucasus...
Which is, of course, why China is instead exerting its influence financially rather than military, and in Latin America rather than the Middle East and Trans-Caucasus.
The whole point of the US interventions now in progress and those in prospect is to put trip-wires in place which would set off mutually-assured-destruction nuclear replies when (not if) China begins to exert it's influence in in the middle east and the trans-Caucasus...
Which is, of course, why China is instead exerting its influence financially rather than military, and in Latin America rather than the Middle East and Trans-Caucasus.
Story on Never Provoke Republicans tonight has made me ill. Shark-fin fleets are seining the seas to kill as many sharks as possible for the sole purpose of cutting off the fins and sending them to market, where they may bring more than $100/lb...
And it reminded me of the near joy with which the shipping magnate regarded the warming and retreat of the northern ice, since it would make trade with Russia so much more profitable; and the complete disregard thei exhibited for the now almost certain extinction of the bears and the seals and the other species whosse habitats will disappear, and whose extinction is thereby assured.
Since Nov. 2 (more or less) I have become increasingly sick of being an American. The more stories like these that I hear--and they are increasing, exponentially, and will continue to do so as long as the relentless commodification of life continues unabated, as it undoubtedly will through the next four years of the Bushista Imperium, at least; and there is diminishingly small evidence to support any optimism that they will ever peacefully relinguish power--the more of that I regard, I say: the more I grow sick of being a human...
Story on Never Provoke Republicans tonight has made me ill. Shark-fin fleets are seining the seas to kill as many sharks as possible for the sole purpose of cutting off the fins and sending them to market, where they may bring more than $100/lb...
And it reminded me of the near joy with which the shipping magnate regarded the warming and retreat of the northern ice, since it would make trade with Russia so much more profitable; and the complete disregard thei exhibited for the now almost certain extinction of the bears and the seals and the other species whosse habitats will disappear, and whose extinction is thereby assured.
Since Nov. 2 (more or less) I have become increasingly sick of being an American. The more stories like these that I hear--and they are increasing, exponentially, and will continue to do so as long as the relentless commodification of life continues unabated, as it undoubtedly will through the next four years of the Bushista Imperium, at least; and there is diminishingly small evidence to support any optimism that they will ever peacefully relinguish power--the more of that I regard, I say: the more I grow sick of being a human...
NYMary
You have now arrived; being trolled by Pastabagel is a sign of true blogdom.
NYMary
You have now arrived; being trolled by Pastabagel is a sign of true blogdom.
I thought that as an American citizen you had the right to now how your congressperson voted on something. Or is that too weird. We pay their salaries, we elect them, we should know how they voted on something.
A "voice vote" amounts to the chair saying "all those in favor, say aye." Nobody is counting, nobody is checking to see whether you voted either way, in fact it's pretty much up to the chair's judgment which way the vote went.
If there had been some controversy - any controversy at all - about the question, somebody would have asked for votes to be recorded.
I thought that as an American citizen you had the right to now how your congressperson voted on something. Or is that too weird. We pay their salaries, we elect them, we should know how they voted on something.
A "voice vote" amounts to the chair saying "all those in favor, say aye." Nobody is counting, nobody is checking to see whether you voted either way, in fact it's pretty much up to the chair's judgment which way the vote went.
If there had been some controversy - any controversy at all - about the question, somebody would have asked for votes to be recorded.
Now I know why Duncan had to leave this blog after the election; the attitude here are the reason we lost and will continue to lose.
Now I know why Duncan had to leave this blog after the election; the attitude here are the reason we lost and will continue to lose.
Dawna, you poor thing.
Dawna, you poor thing.
Oh! And pastabagel trolled my blog! Told me I should be listening to jazz. Huh.
Wow, what an iconoclast he is!
Poor Pastabagel. I hope you have better luck with him than I did!
Oh! And pastabagel trolled my blog! Told me I should be listening to jazz. Huh.
Wow, what an iconoclast he is!
Poor Pastabagel. I hope you have better luck with him than I did!
I sense you've done a lot of research and talking about this health insurance thing. Seems complicated enough to deserve its own auxiliary web page the way dereliction is auxiliary to cursor.org. Maybe even get some people to devote time to policy-wonk-blogging the health insurance crisis.
I sense you've done a lot of research and talking about this health insurance thing. Seems complicated enough to deserve its own auxiliary web page the way dereliction is auxiliary to cursor.org. Maybe even get some people to devote time to policy-wonk-blogging the health insurance crisis.
which would set off mutually-assured-destruction nuclear replies when (not if) China begins to exert it's influence
...Has China ever signaled any intentions to 'exert it's influence' in the region, or is this some neocon wet dream of what they would do if they controlled China?
which would set off mutually-assured-destruction nuclear replies when (not if) China begins to exert it's influence
...Has China ever signaled any intentions to 'exert it's influence' in the region, or is this some neocon wet dream of what they would do if they controlled China?
Now I know why Duncan had to leave this blog after the election; the attitude here are the reason we lost and will continue to lose.
Dawna
Boy, that sounds familiar!
Now I know why Duncan had to leave this blog after the election; the attitude here are the reason we lost and will continue to lose.
Dawna
Boy, that sounds familiar!
You have now arrived; being trolled by Pastabagel is a sign of true blogdom.
I got spam from pastabagel today. does that make me important?
You have now arrived; being trolled by Pastabagel is a sign of true blogdom.
I got spam from pastabagel today. does that make me important?
the attitude here are the reason we lost and will continue to lose.
Yes, darling, the attitude here am the reason we lost.
the attitude here are the reason we lost and will continue to lose.
Yes, darling, the attitude here am the reason we lost.
Boy, ErinPDX sounds familiar too. The gang's all here!
Say what you like about Paqstabagel, but he registers, he always uses the same name, and he's generally polite.
Boy, ErinPDX sounds familiar too. The gang's all here!
Say what you like about Paqstabagel, but he registers, he always uses the same name, and he's generally polite.
The True Conservative=Dawna
The True Conservative=Dawna
theodoric
You're important even w/o getting spam! PB was one of the weirder trolls we've had.
theodoric
You're important even w/o getting spam! PB was one of the weirder trolls we've had.
I want to know where Chimpy got that number for how expensive Kerry's health care plan was going to be.
I want to know where Chimpy got that number for how expensive Kerry's health care plan was going to be.
On the pharmaceutical side we can give the sick Bush rubes a sugar placebo pill for any disease that ails them.Cheap and the standard by which all drugs are tested.
On the pharmaceutical side we can give the sick Bush rubes a sugar placebo pill for any disease that ails them.Cheap and the standard by which all drugs are tested.
theodoric
I figured he just pulled it out of his ass
You say something, pie and tena take it completely out of context
Yeah, I can't count how many times that's happened to me. They're always putting words in my mouth!
I wish they'd stop picking on me, and start going after the shapeshifter trolls who turn up every goddamn day in order to trash them for a bunch of imaginary crimes against democratic principles.
theodoric
I figured he just pulled it out of his ass
You say something, pie and tena take it completely out of context
Yeah, I can't count how many times that's happened to me. They're always putting words in my mouth!
I wish they'd stop picking on me, and start going after the shapeshifter trolls who turn up every goddamn day in order to trash them for a bunch of imaginary crimes against democratic principles.
...Has China ever signaled any intentions to 'exert it's influence' in the region, or is this some neocon wet dream of what they would do if they controlled China?
One might as well fuck with a firecracker as fuck with China.
...Has China ever signaled any intentions to 'exert it's influence' in the region, or is this some neocon wet dream of what they would do if they controlled China?
One might as well fuck with a firecracker as fuck with China.
On the pharmaceutical side we can give the sick Bush rubes a sugar placebo pill for any disease that ails them.Cheap and the standard by which all drugs are tested.
They don't need medicine.
They've got Jesus looking out for them.
On the pharmaceutical side we can give the sick Bush rubes a sugar placebo pill for any disease that ails them.Cheap and the standard by which all drugs are tested.
They don't need medicine.
They've got Jesus looking out for them.
One might as well fuck with a firecracker as fuck with China.
That sounds painful.
One might as well fuck with a firecracker as fuck with China.
That sounds painful.
Jeebus, The Ultimate Placebo.
Jeebus, The Ultimate Placebo.
The Berkeley study is interesting. I have now re-read it several times and this is the first clear study that shows something is most likely rotten in the state of Florida.
The Berkeley study is interesting. I have now re-read it several times and this is the first clear study that shows something is most likely rotten in the state of Florida.
I'm not sure what this endgame is with the repugs. If people cannot afford healthcare, you have a) a sick/debilitated workforce not able to pay taxes or produce goods and services, thus affecting the economy, thus affecting the ability to maintain a healthy workforce, reducing income in the healthcare industry, yada yada yada.
C.S. Lewis observed that the behavior that aristocracies naturally like is not the behavior that will best preserve an aristocracy (witness the French Revolution), and that the behavior that democracies naturally like (i.e. anti-intellectualism) is not the behavior that will best preserve a democracy. In the same way, I suggest, the behavior that capitalists naturally like is not necessarily that which will best preserve capitalism.
Or will it? If the pool of poor people desperate for work is big enough, then workers (here and abroad) will be docile and will let you keep nearly all the revenue for yourself. And if they die or become too sick to work, there's always plenty more where they came from.
I'm not sure what this endgame is with the repugs. If people cannot afford healthcare, you have a) a sick/debilitated workforce not able to pay taxes or produce goods and services, thus affecting the economy, thus affecting the ability to maintain a healthy workforce, reducing income in the healthcare industry, yada yada yada.
C.S. Lewis observed that the behavior that aristocracies naturally like is not the behavior that will best preserve an aristocracy (witness the French Revolution), and that the behavior that democracies naturally like (i.e. anti-intellectualism) is not the behavior that will best preserve a democracy. In the same way, I suggest, the behavior that capitalists naturally like is not necessarily that which will best preserve capitalism.
Or will it? If the pool of poor people desperate for work is big enough, then workers (here and abroad) will be docile and will let you keep nearly all the revenue for yourself. And if they die or become too sick to work, there's always plenty more where they came from.
Echidne
Can you summarizze it for your lazy friends? 
Echidne
Can you summarizze it for your lazy friends?
Thank you for this, Atrios.
Now I can send this to my friends/family/co-workers so I don't have to go hoarse explaining this fifty thousand times.
Thank you for this, Atrios.
Now I can send this to my friends/family/co-workers so I don't have to go hoarse explaining this fifty thousand times.
"I want to know where Chimpy got that number for how expensive Kerry's health care plan was going to be."
Glad you asked!
Does Americans for Tax Reform (ATR) ring a bell? How about the president of ATR, Grover Norquist?
How about this:
John Kerry has promised to “pay for” all of his new spending proposals, including an estimated $1.5 trillion over 10 years for his healthcare plan. Unfortunately, American taxpayers would be the ones footing the bill. Americans for Tax Reform (ATR) today issued a report which estimates that Kerry will need to impose a tax hike of $969 per year on the average taxpayer, or nearly $10,000 over the next decade, to fund this program.
“John Kerry wants to implement a bloated, government-run healthcare program and stick American taxpayers with the bill,” said ATR President Grover Norquist. “Kerry has made empty promises about preserving President Bush’s middle class tax cuts, but the fact it is, he needs to raise taxes to fund this big government boondoggle."
You know, $969 per year sounds pretty damn CHEAP for full healthcare for all.
Anyway, the point is that this points straight back to Grover Norquist and the GOP.
"I want to know where Chimpy got that number for how expensive Kerry's health care plan was going to be."
Glad you asked!
Does Americans for Tax Reform (ATR) ring a bell? How about the president of ATR, Grover Norquist?
How about this:
John Kerry has promised to “pay for” all of his new spending proposals, including an estimated $1.5 trillion over 10 years for his healthcare plan. Unfortunately, American taxpayers would be the ones footing the bill. Americans for Tax Reform (ATR) today issued a report which estimates that Kerry will need to impose a tax hike of $969 per year on the average taxpayer, or nearly $10,000 over the next decade, to fund this program.
“John Kerry wants to implement a bloated, government-run healthcare program and stick American taxpayers with the bill,” said ATR President Grover Norquist. “Kerry has made empty promises about preserving President Bush’s middle class tax cuts, but the fact it is, he needs to raise taxes to fund this big government boondoggle."
You know, $969 per year sounds pretty damn CHEAP for full healthcare for all.
Anyway, the point is that this points straight back to Grover Norquist and the GOP.
I used to think I had friends in blue places. The scoffing at red states is salt in the wound of the 2004 election.
I used to think I had friends in blue places. The scoffing at red states is salt in the wound of the 2004 election.
One might as well fuck with a firecracker as fuck with China.
...Not suggesting we fuck with China. I'm asking if China has ever indicated any designs on the middle east region? Seems to me China has for the most part assumed an isolationist posture in recent history. (Tibet and Taiwan excepted).
One might as well fuck with a firecracker as fuck with China.
...Not suggesting we fuck with China. I'm asking if China has ever indicated any designs on the middle east region? Seems to me China has for the most part assumed an isolationist posture in recent history. (Tibet and Taiwan excepted).
I have now re-read it several times and this is the first clear study that shows something is most likely rotten in the state of Florida.
ISTR somebody asking Jimmy Carter a few weeks before the election whether he shouldn't be going over to monitor the election in Florida.
He responded to the effect that he could only take on a few projects a year and that he already knew of several ways in which Florida failed to meet internationally accepted standards for fair elections.
I have now re-read it several times and this is the first clear study that shows something is most likely rotten in the state of Florida.
ISTR somebody asking Jimmy Carter a few weeks before the election whether he shouldn't be going over to monitor the election in Florida.
He responded to the effect that he could only take on a few projects a year and that he already knew of several ways in which Florida failed to meet internationally accepted standards for fair elections.
One might as well fuck with a firecracker as fuck with China.
That sounds painful.
Yeah. Kind of like 1 billion Chinese running the gauntlet coming for our ass.
Funny, but the strangest thing is that the NEOCun.s think that this is doable.
One might as well fuck with a firecracker as fuck with China.
That sounds painful.
Yeah. Kind of like 1 billion Chinese running the gauntlet coming for our ass.
Funny, but the strangest thing is that the NEOCun.s think that this is doable.
I used to think I had friends...
Why do you not think that anymore?
How sad.
I used to think I had friends...
Why do you not think that anymore?
How sad.
May I recommend that all of you with clear skies this evening, grab your change purses and run outside and shake them at the new moon. This is a long hallowed invocation which will encourage the production of money for you.
GWPDA
i'm going out to shake my 50 million dollar lotto ticket right now. this better work.
May I recommend that all of you with clear skies this evening, grab your change purses and run outside and shake them at the new moon. This is a long hallowed invocation which will encourage the production of money for you.
GWPDA
i'm going out to shake my 50 million dollar lotto ticket right now. this better work.
The Effect of Electronic Voting Machines on Change in Support for Bush
in the 2004 Florida Elections
Summary:
- Irregularities associated with electronic voting machines may
have awarded 130,000 excess votes or more to President George W.
Bush in Florida.
-
Compared to counties with paper ballots, counties with electronic
voting machines were significantly more likely to show increases
in support for President Bush between 2000 and 2004. This effect
cannot be explained by differences between counties in income,
number of voters, change in voter turnout, or size of
Hispanic/Latino population.
-
In Broward County alone, President Bush appears to have received
approximately 72,000 excess votes.
-
We can be 99.9% sure that these effects are not attributable to
chance.
Details:
Because many factors impact voting results, statistical tools are
necessary to see the effect of touch-screen voting. Multipleregression
analysis is a statistical technique widely used in the
social and physical sciences to distinguish the individual effects of
many variables.
This multiple-regression analysis takes account of the following
variables by county:
- number of voters
- median income
- Hispanic population
- change in voter turnout between 2000 and 2004
- support for President Bush in 2000 election
- support for Dole in 1996 election
When one controls for these factors, the association between electronic
voting and increased support for President Bush is impossible to
overlook. The data show with 99.0% certainty that a county’s use of
electronic voting is associated with a disproportionate increase in
votes for President Bush.
The data used in this study come from CNN.com, the 2000 US Census, the
Florida Department of State, and the Verified Voting Foundation – all
publicly available sources. This study was carried out by a group of
doctoral students in the UC Berkeley sociology department in
collaboration with Professor Michael Hout, a member of the National
Academy of Sciences and the UC Berkeley Survey Research Center.
The Effect of Electronic Voting Machines on Change in Support for Bush
in the 2004 Florida Elections
Summary:
- Irregularities associated with electronic voting machines may
have awarded 130,000 excess votes or more to President George W.
Bush in Florida.
-
Compared to counties with paper ballots, counties with electronic
voting machines were significantly more likely to show increases
in support for President Bush between 2000 and 2004. This effect
cannot be explained by differences between counties in income,
number of voters, change in voter turnout, or size of
Hispanic/Latino population.
-
In Broward County alone, President Bush appears to have received
approximately 72,000 excess votes.
-
We can be 99.9% sure that these effects are not attributable to
chance.
Details:
Because many factors impact voting results, statistical tools are
necessary to see the effect of touch-screen voting. Multipleregression
analysis is a statistical technique widely used in the
social and physical sciences to distinguish the individual effects of
many variables.
This multiple-regression analysis takes account of the following
variables by county:
- number of voters
- median income
- Hispanic population
- change in voter turnout between 2000 and 2004
- support for President Bush in 2000 election
- support for Dole in 1996 election
When one controls for these factors, the association between electronic
voting and increased support for President Bush is impossible to
overlook. The data show with 99.0% certainty that a county’s use of
electronic voting is associated with a disproportionate increase in
votes for President Bush.
The data used in this study come from CNN.com, the 2000 US Census, the
Florida Department of State, and the Verified Voting Foundation – all
publicly available sources. This study was carried out by a group of
doctoral students in the UC Berkeley sociology department in
collaboration with Professor Michael Hout, a member of the National
Academy of Sciences and the UC Berkeley Survey Research Center.
Maybe if we call it political Darwinism the GOP policies will start to scare the bible nuts.
American companies are at a huge competitive disadvantage to foreign companies because American companies are saddled with the huge burden of providing health care. If the Dems frame the issue in these two ways they can win this battle.
Maybe if we call it political Darwinism the GOP policies will start to scare the bible nuts.
American companies are at a huge competitive disadvantage to foreign companies because American companies are saddled with the huge burden of providing health care. If the Dems frame the issue in these two ways they can win this battle.
A Little Bird,
Now, I'm scared.
A Little Bird,
Now, I'm scared.
Hecate,
The study looks at reasons to explain the increase in Bush votes from 2000 in Florida. They put in various factors such as the history of voting in the area, population size and income and ethnic composition. They find out that areas which used machine voting had a largish unexplained extra growth of Bush votes. In amount this is roughly 130,000 if the extra votes are shadow votes, 260,000 if the extra votes came from Kerry. The largest differences were found in Democratic counties (Broward, Miami Dade and some third place).
Something smells.
Hecate,
The study looks at reasons to explain the increase in Bush votes from 2000 in Florida. They put in various factors such as the history of voting in the area, population size and income and ethnic composition. They find out that areas which used machine voting had a largish unexplained extra growth of Bush votes. In amount this is roughly 130,000 if the extra votes are shadow votes, 260,000 if the extra votes came from Kerry. The largest differences were found in Democratic counties (Broward, Miami Dade and some third place).
Something smells.
You are forgetting the very essence of the insurance business-
The insurance business isn't in the business of insuring it is in the business of collecting alot of money up front and paying it out slowly over time .. the difference is called the float.
it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that everytime there is a health insurance crisis in US it happens when there is downturn in stock market ..
that is because insurance companies investments of their float are not doing good.. the only way they can make up the different is raise premiums
You are forgetting the very essence of the insurance business-
The insurance business isn't in the business of insuring it is in the business of collecting alot of money up front and paying it out slowly over time .. the difference is called the float.
it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that everytime there is a health insurance crisis in US it happens when there is downturn in stock market ..
that is because insurance companies investments of their float are not doing good.. the only way they can make up the different is raise premiums
Please don't link the expression "survival of the fittest" with Charles Darwin's theories of Evolution by Natural Selection or Sexual Selection. The phrase should be attributed to Herbert Spencer and has always been a justification for white Christian supremacy. Darwinism and Social Darwinism have only the name in common. The right-wing is irony-impaired in many ways; that is not one of them.
I don't know how intrinsic "white Christian supremacy" is to Social Darwinism, but the fact that it is called Social Darwinism is evidence that Spencer's social theory received a big boost from Darwin's theory of natural selection. Here, it seemed, was incontrovertible scientific proof that the competitive struggle for survival is natural and necessary, and that helping those who are being selected out can only degrade the human species. Evangelicals at the turn of the last century were afraid of Darwinism partly because they were afraid of Social Darwinism.
And the identification continues. A few years ago I saw the front page of Crain's New York Business, saluting Charles Darwin for telling us how things really are. So yes, today's evangelical conservatives are irony-impaired.
Please don't link the expression "survival of the fittest" with Charles Darwin's theories of Evolution by Natural Selection or Sexual Selection. The phrase should be attributed to Herbert Spencer and has always been a justification for white Christian supremacy. Darwinism and Social Darwinism have only the name in common. The right-wing is irony-impaired in many ways; that is not one of them.
I don't know how intrinsic "white Christian supremacy" is to Social Darwinism, but the fact that it is called Social Darwinism is evidence that Spencer's social theory received a big boost from Darwin's theory of natural selection. Here, it seemed, was incontrovertible scientific proof that the competitive struggle for survival is natural and necessary, and that helping those who are being selected out can only degrade the human species. Evangelicals at the turn of the last century were afraid of Darwinism partly because they were afraid of Social Darwinism.
And the identification continues. A few years ago I saw the front page of Crain's New York Business, saluting Charles Darwin for telling us how things really are. So yes, today's evangelical conservatives are irony-impaired.
Aww, crud.
I said something nice to "Dawna".
I'm such a sucker.
.
Aww, crud.
I said something nice to "Dawna".
I'm such a sucker.
.
Echidne,
It sure does. Do you have a link? Are talking about enough votes to throw the election? I admit I haven't paid attention to how close Florida was
Echidne,
It sure does. Do you have a link? Are talking about enough votes to throw the election? I admit I haven't paid attention to how close Florida was
Hecate - go over to www.buzzflash.com for all your viewing pleasure.
Yes, those boys at Berkeley are not playing nice.
Hecate - go over to www.buzzflash.com for all your viewing pleasure.
Yes, those boys at Berkeley are not playing nice.
..Not suggesting we fuck with China. I'm asking if China has ever indicated any designs on the middle east region? Seems to me China has for the most part assumed an isolationist posture in recent history. (Tibet and Taiwan excepted).
The "Fuck with China" meme was my addition to the mix. My thought is that the NeoCun.. will stop at nothing.
A week or so ago this statement would have been preposterous, but in the last couple of days, with the bullshit that is coming from the right, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the repukes would want hegemony over China.
They'll probably start referring to is as Cathay again.
..Not suggesting we fuck with China. I'm asking if China has ever indicated any designs on the middle east region? Seems to me China has for the most part assumed an isolationist posture in recent history. (Tibet and Taiwan excepted).
The "Fuck with China" meme was my addition to the mix. My thought is that the NeoCun.. will stop at nothing.
A week or so ago this statement would have been preposterous, but in the last couple of days, with the bullshit that is coming from the right, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the repukes would want hegemony over China.
They'll probably start referring to is as Cathay again.
spork, don't worry. It was a pretty darn good trollop, for a trollop....
spork, don't worry. It was a pretty darn good trollop, for a trollop....
You are forgetting the very essence of the insurance business
No, I'm not.
My doctor - or, rather, the Hospital Corporation of America, which manages his practice - gives me 40% off the top of his bills for saving him the trouble of dealing with my insurance people.
Yes, 40%. Across the board. That's enough of a deal that I don't even mind that the place is named after Bill Frist's daddy.
You are forgetting the very essence of the insurance business
No, I'm not.
My doctor - or, rather, the Hospital Corporation of America, which manages his practice - gives me 40% off the top of his bills for saving him the trouble of dealing with my insurance people.
Yes, 40%. Across the board. That's enough of a deal that I don't even mind that the place is named after Bill Frist's daddy.
JohnLalo :
Brother, relax...
Yeah, people are on average living a little longer each generation. But I don't think either of my parents lived as long as their parents did.
And frankly I do not expect to live as long as either of them because of the increasing toxicity associated with keeping the machine of 'progress' running.
You can tell a lot about culture from its view of 'health,' its health priorities. Because the environment that is created in the process of doing 'progress' is so noxious, human health is regarded as 'degradable but restorable,' much like a mining company might regard a hilltop over a coal seam. We can fuck it up as much as we like as long as we do some little cosmetic when we're done to make the yokels think we gave a fiddler's fuck,...
We look for the cure for cancer, and everything else because there's no fucking way in hell you can have polluted air, polluted water, polluted ground, polluted food, polluted houses, polluted EVERYFUCKINGTHING, withOUT stimulating environmental triggers for cancers...i think the word is 'iatrogenic.'
In the 'progress' mode, we cannot prevent disease, we cannot reduce the risk of these diseases. Everything we do exacerbates the risks of debilitating disease. I absorbed enough industrial chemicals through my skin to do in a colony of lab rats. And it wasn't that I didn't try not to absorb them. We had 'protective' gear. But it was next to useless for the task of handling these materials. These were chemicals used in the manufacture of silicon chips, weapons systems and space vehicles. They're still inside me somewhere, probably a kidney or my liver, possibly both.
Plus I smoked tobacco for 35 years.
Plus I have ingested a fairly large quantity of recreational chemicals in the course of my near-60 years.
Plus, I still consume a fair amount of alcohol--along with whatever other psychotropic drugs I can get a hold of--on a daily basis.
And I was ill as a child, which will have (what was the word you used?) actuarial consequences, too.
And I have a stache of barbiturates and a bottle of good scotch in case it turns out I dont have the nerve to TOWM (think TAFFwY, 1st p., obj).
I'm tryin to say, John, I dont think I, or many of my generation will trouble you too long. No longer, certainly, than we were troubled by our parents, who lived much more simply and less stressfully than we do and/or did; and who only outlived their parents by a little--if at all--despite the advances which their generation experienced (and don't forget, they were the first ones to benefit from transplant technology, and a lot of other 'repairs').
So buck up, lad.
Life is short and then you die...
JohnLalo :
Brother, relax...
Yeah, people are on average living a little longer each generation. But I don't think either of my parents lived as long as their parents did.
And frankly I do not expect to live as long as either of them because of the increasing toxicity associated with keeping the machine of 'progress' running.
You can tell a lot about culture from its view of 'health,' its health priorities. Because the environment that is created in the process of doing 'progress' is so noxious, human health is regarded as 'degradable but restorable,' much like a mining company might regard a hilltop over a coal seam. We can fuck it up as much as we like as long as we do some little cosmetic when we're done to make the yokels think we gave a fiddler's fuck,...
We look for the cure for cancer, and everything else because there's no fucking way in hell you can have polluted air, polluted water, polluted ground, polluted food, polluted houses, polluted EVERYFUCKINGTHING, withOUT stimulating environmental triggers for cancers...i think the word is 'iatrogenic.'
In the 'progress' mode, we cannot prevent disease, we cannot reduce the risk of these diseases. Everything we do exacerbates the risks of debilitating disease. I absorbed enough industrial chemicals through my skin to do in a colony of lab rats. And it wasn't that I didn't try not to absorb them. We had 'protective' gear. But it was next to useless for the task of handling these materials. These were chemicals used in the manufacture of silicon chips, weapons systems and space vehicles. They're still inside me somewhere, probably a kidney or my liver, possibly both.
Plus I smoked tobacco for 35 years.
Plus I have ingested a fairly large quantity of recreational chemicals in the course of my near-60 years.
Plus, I still consume a fair amount of alcohol--along with whatever other psychotropic drugs I can get a hold of--on a daily basis.
And I was ill as a child, which will have (what was the word you used?) actuarial consequences, too.
And I have a stache of barbiturates and a bottle of good scotch in case it turns out I dont have the nerve to TOWM (think TAFFwY, 1st p., obj).
I'm tryin to say, John, I dont think I, or many of my generation will trouble you too long. No longer, certainly, than we were troubled by our parents, who lived much more simply and less stressfully than we do and/or did; and who only outlived their parents by a little--if at all--despite the advances which their generation experienced (and don't forget, they were the first ones to benefit from transplant technology, and a lot of other 'repairs').
So buck up, lad.
Life is short and then you die...
Dawna,
Take two MIDOL,
Call us in the morning.
Dawna,
Take two MIDOL,
Call us in the morning.
Hecate,
Hey you're a lawyer. I asked this the other day, but only Phila bit. If it turns out that the election was fixed in more than one state, do RICO statutes apply?
Hecate,
Hey you're a lawyer. I asked this the other day, but only Phila bit. If it turns out that the election was fixed in more than one state, do RICO statutes apply?
Thanks GWPDA.
New thread, everybody.
Thanks GWPDA.
New thread, everybody.
'm not sure what this endgame is with the repugs. If people cannot afford healthcare, you have a) a sick/debilitated workforce not able to pay taxes or produce goods and services, thus affecting the economy, thus affecting the ability to maintain a healthy workforce, reducing income in the healthcare industry, yada yada yada.
The economy did perfectly fine before there was modern healthcare. Sick people lost their jobs, which were taken by healthier workers. Since there was no health insurance, a sick person would have to pay for what care there was himself, or do without. The basic attitude was that if you weren't smart enough or hard-working enough to make enough money to stop working when you couldn't any more, your relatives could take care of you, or you could beg on the street, or preferably go off somewhere out of sight and quietly die. The Republicans seem to want to bring this attitude back.
'm not sure what this endgame is with the repugs. If people cannot afford healthcare, you have a) a sick/debilitated workforce not able to pay taxes or produce goods and services, thus affecting the economy, thus affecting the ability to maintain a healthy workforce, reducing income in the healthcare industry, yada yada yada.
The economy did perfectly fine before there was modern healthcare. Sick people lost their jobs, which were taken by healthier workers. Since there was no health insurance, a sick person would have to pay for what care there was himself, or do without. The basic attitude was that if you weren't smart enough or hard-working enough to make enough money to stop working when you couldn't any more, your relatives could take care of you, or you could beg on the street, or preferably go off somewhere out of sight and quietly die. The Republicans seem to want to bring this attitude back.
Oh, and thanks for telling me I've arrived, Hec. Aside from the jazz thing, he was perfectly polite and didn't do the "THEY CALL ME...." thing he does sometimes.
Oh, and thanks for telling me I've arrived, Hec. Aside from the jazz thing, he was perfectly polite and didn't do the "THEY CALL ME...." thing he does sometimes.
Another thing that should be taken into account is the use -- and sometimes overuse -- of the high tech medical equipment we have.
For instance, there's mammography. At a certain age, doctors start recommending that you have annual mammograms. If you have fibrous breasts or any scar tissue in your breasts, your mammogram shows a shadow and they can't tell what the shadow is. So then you're sent for an ultrasound, and if that doesn't make it clear, then the doctors start talking about MRI and if they STILL can't figure out what the tissue is, then they start talking about biopsies.
This happened to me last year. I was pretty sure it was scar tissue, but "pretty sure" is kind of hard to hold up against the possibility of a tumor, so I did the whole nine yards, including surgery, only to find out that there was no real lump after all, just fibrous tissue. My doctor said that the problem with this technology is that you often get false positives, and then who's going to say, "No, I'll just wait and see if it's cancer or not", especially when doctors feel they're going to be second-guessed if they don't give you every possible diagnostic?
I don't know what the answer to this is, but I had a fair amount of high tech medical costs (covered, thank God, by insurance for the most part), and it turned out none of them were necessary. And I bet I'm not alone in that.
Another thing that should be taken into account is the use -- and sometimes overuse -- of the high tech medical equipment we have.
For instance, there's mammography. At a certain age, doctors start recommending that you have annual mammograms. If you have fibrous breasts or any scar tissue in your breasts, your mammogram shows a shadow and they can't tell what the shadow is. So then you're sent for an ultrasound, and if that doesn't make it clear, then the doctors start talking about MRI and if they STILL can't figure out what the tissue is, then they start talking about biopsies.
This happened to me last year. I was pretty sure it was scar tissue, but "pretty sure" is kind of hard to hold up against the possibility of a tumor, so I did the whole nine yards, including surgery, only to find out that there was no real lump after all, just fibrous tissue. My doctor said that the problem with this technology is that you often get false positives, and then who's going to say, "No, I'll just wait and see if it's cancer or not", especially when doctors feel they're going to be second-guessed if they don't give you every possible diagnostic?
I don't know what the answer to this is, but I had a fair amount of high tech medical costs (covered, thank God, by insurance for the most part), and it turned out none of them were necessary. And I bet I'm not alone in that.
Chauncy Gardner = tick brain
Chauncy Gardner = tick brain
GWPDA-
Thanks. It's gotten weird around here.
"Trollop" is such a fine, if Victorian, word.
Whatever happened to "hussy"?
.
GWPDA-
Thanks. It's gotten weird around here.
"Trollop" is such a fine, if Victorian, word.
Whatever happened to "hussy"?
.
I don't think that the answer lies in contesting vote counts.
I think the answer lies in saying fuck it, we're not even going to apply to appear on the ballot on Florida next time, because we already know the Republican is gonna win. Let's not even have a presidential primary in Florida in 2008.
Let those crackers have their one-party state. They can't get away with this kinda shit unless we play along.
I don't think that the answer lies in contesting vote counts.
I think the answer lies in saying fuck it, we're not even going to apply to appear on the ballot on Florida next time, because we already know the Republican is gonna win. Let's not even have a presidential primary in Florida in 2008.
Let those crackers have their one-party state. They can't get away with this kinda shit unless we play along.
Hussy - well, ever since I was condemned for being 'haughty', most of those vaguely vague terms have left me cold. I could never (and still can't) determine whether being haughty was a good thing, a bad thing, a frightening thing, a terrible thing, a tall thing, or just a thing. Mostly I settled on the truth that since I was and am pretty tall, I was being condemned for standing up straight and being comfortable about tallness.
Anyway, I've just decided that the girl or girl masquerading trolls should be trollops. More appropriately they are trollopes, but that confuses the issue. It seems to confuse the trollops as well tho, so that's a good thing.
Hussy - well, ever since I was condemned for being 'haughty', most of those vaguely vague terms have left me cold. I could never (and still can't) determine whether being haughty was a good thing, a bad thing, a frightening thing, a terrible thing, a tall thing, or just a thing. Mostly I settled on the truth that since I was and am pretty tall, I was being condemned for standing up straight and being comfortable about tallness.
Anyway, I've just decided that the girl or girl masquerading trolls should be trollops. More appropriately they are trollopes, but that confuses the issue. It seems to confuse the trollops as well tho, so that's a good thing.
GN : fuckin a bubba.
Peace all .Tena , I don't blame you . Woot, Where is my Boobie N Cheeze ?
And who the hell is Dawna and who pissed in her Cornflakes?
Backslider , you didn't miss the bowl did you ?
AND could everyone in the media stop talking about the Trouncing the left took in the polls ...1/2 of the country voted for Kerry , the bigger half voted for an idiot , because 1/2 of the population bought a toothpaste salesman draped in hate over an actual plan...therefore, half the country are stupid suckers. Selah
GN : fuckin a bubba.
Peace all .Tena , I don't blame you . Woot, Where is my Boobie N Cheeze ?
And who the hell is Dawna and who pissed in her Cornflakes?
Backslider , you didn't miss the bowl did you ?
AND could everyone in the media stop talking about the Trouncing the left took in the polls ...1/2 of the country voted for Kerry , the bigger half voted for an idiot , because 1/2 of the population bought a toothpaste salesman draped in hate over an actual plan...therefore, half the country are stupid suckers. Selah
For some reason the word 'trollop' gives me the mental image of a sexy horse. I don't know why.
For some reason the word 'trollop' gives me the mental image of a sexy horse. I don't know why.
Sorry, that was badly phrased,it is just disapointment in the post-election reaction.
It plainly sucks to live surrounded (about 2/3 red to 1/3 blue) by idiots. It sucks further to have blue states scoffing and generalizing and spitting on red states. This is ignorance, and is unproductive. It was helpful when some came out with the more truly representational "purple" states maps.
The people here who worked, donated, prayed and hoped for Kerry are just as disappointed as you are, and painfully so in such issues as the quality of people's lives which will be further diminished in another 4 years of the Bush administration.
Sorry, that was badly phrased,it is just disapointment in the post-election reaction.
It plainly sucks to live surrounded (about 2/3 red to 1/3 blue) by idiots. It sucks further to have blue states scoffing and generalizing and spitting on red states. This is ignorance, and is unproductive. It was helpful when some came out with the more truly representational "purple" states maps.
The people here who worked, donated, prayed and hoped for Kerry are just as disappointed as you are, and painfully so in such issues as the quality of people's lives which will be further diminished in another 4 years of the Bush administration.
...Has China ever signaled any intentions to 'exert it's influence' in the region, or is this some neocon wet dream of what they would do if they controlled China?
Falstaff
The chinese are politically 'pragmatic.'
China has not got enough energy in house to fuel its inevitable expansion.
There is, however, a LOT of energy in the trans-caucasus, which lies adjacent to the western borders of China--which is where a large population of Turkomen (Muslim) Chinese, who are often portrayed by beijing as 'restive.' It does not stretch credulity too far to imagine the Chinese might engage their 'restive' Muslim minority int he Trans-Caspiant in much the same way, and for the same reason that the Russians continue their hostilities against the Chechens in the trans Caucasus. For purposes of access to the energy reserves of central asia, which are the last largely unexploited petroleum reserves on the planet. It doesn't take a neo-con to figure that out.
And it certainly provides a reason for the expansion of US military influence--through the machinery of the 'war on terror'--throughout ALL the former Soviet Southeast 'Stans.
Kazakstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan,, Tajikistan: US forces are in place in all those nations, which coincidentally border on Turkomen China.
That's probably just a coincidence, though, I guess.
...Has China ever signaled any intentions to 'exert it's influence' in the region, or is this some neocon wet dream of what they would do if they controlled China?
Falstaff
The chinese are politically 'pragmatic.'
China has not got enough energy in house to fuel its inevitable expansion.
There is, however, a LOT of energy in the trans-caucasus, which lies adjacent to the western borders of China--which is where a large population of Turkomen (Muslim) Chinese, who are often portrayed by beijing as 'restive.' It does not stretch credulity too far to imagine the Chinese might engage their 'restive' Muslim minority int he Trans-Caspiant in much the same way, and for the same reason that the Russians continue their hostilities against the Chechens in the trans Caucasus. For purposes of access to the energy reserves of central asia, which are the last largely unexploited petroleum reserves on the planet. It doesn't take a neo-con to figure that out.
And it certainly provides a reason for the expansion of US military influence--through the machinery of the 'war on terror'--throughout ALL the former Soviet Southeast 'Stans.
Kazakstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan,, Tajikistan: US forces are in place in all those nations, which coincidentally border on Turkomen China.
That's probably just a coincidence, though, I guess.
hmmmm; giggle....good one ...
like ,'is a neo-con a conservative that glows in the dark?'
hmmmm; giggle....good one ...
like ,'is a neo-con a conservative that glows in the dark?'
hmmmmm -
And have you ever danced the gallop?
That's why....
hmmmmm -
And have you ever danced the gallop?
That's why....
Are talking about enough votes to throw the election? I admit I haven't paid attention to how close Florida was
If 200,000 Kerry votes were somehow changed into Bush votes, that would make Bush's lead in Florida 400,000...
If these hypothetical votes were put back into their proper column, it would theoretically tip Florida for Kerry.
Unfortunately, since there is no paper trail for much of this, it is impossible to know who actually won Florida. Several other states have similar problems.
So at the moment, there is no way to say for sure who actually won the election. Nobody can produce documentation to indicate what the results are, so, if the media has their way, we will go another 4 years without a legitimate President.
Are talking about enough votes to throw the election? I admit I haven't paid attention to how close Florida was
If 200,000 Kerry votes were somehow changed into Bush votes, that would make Bush's lead in Florida 400,000...
If these hypothetical votes were put back into their proper column, it would theoretically tip Florida for Kerry.
Unfortunately, since there is no paper trail for much of this, it is impossible to know who actually won Florida. Several other states have similar problems.
So at the moment, there is no way to say for sure who actually won the election. Nobody can produce documentation to indicate what the results are, so, if the media has their way, we will go another 4 years without a legitimate President.
GWPDA/Spork:
Harlot, when it first attained currency in English about 1350 mas o menos), referred to masterless men-at-arms who haunted the late Medieval and early Renaissance cities like predators. The word meaning was transferred later to the women of easy virtue who serviced them, perhaps on the theory that the menace the men once posed to one's to life or purse, those women posed to the eternal life of the soul...
GWPDA/Spork:
Harlot, when it first attained currency in English about 1350 mas o menos), referred to masterless men-at-arms who haunted the late Medieval and early Renaissance cities like predators. The word meaning was transferred later to the women of easy virtue who serviced them, perhaps on the theory that the menace the men once posed to one's to life or purse, those women posed to the eternal life of the soul...
Sorry I mis-identified the western chinese border region as adjacent to the trans-caucasus. It is how i had always referred to the region. I have self-corrected, and will only hereafter refer to the region I intended as south-central Asia, east of the Caspian--the former Soviet 'Stans, ie...sorry fr the ocnfusion
Sorry I mis-identified the western chinese border region as adjacent to the trans-caucasus. It is how i had always referred to the region. I have self-corrected, and will only hereafter refer to the region I intended as south-central Asia, east of the Caspian--the former Soviet 'Stans, ie...sorry fr the ocnfusion
The use of insurance is not part of the healthcare solution... it's key to the problem...
The fundamental reason that insurance works, when it does work, is that it provides indemnity for unplanned and unforseable catastrophies, and what makes it work is that those who don't suffer losses pay for those who do. Because not every one wrecks their car the same day, the system works.
But that's NOT what HEALTH INSURANCE DOES... it doesn't indemnifiy unpredictable health risks to the PATIENTS... it indemnifies unpredictable financial risks to the PROVIDERS... For the patient, it's little more than a discount service, like a Sam's card...
But insurance can't work for the patient, because health care and health maintenance are easily predictable. You KNOW you're going to use your health plan.
And the insurance companies become a layer of privatized government, regulating the industry by injecting cashflow into the system.
The use of insurance is not part of the healthcare solution... it's key to the problem...
The fundamental reason that insurance works, when it does work, is that it provides indemnity for unplanned and unforseable catastrophies, and what makes it work is that those who don't suffer losses pay for those who do. Because not every one wrecks their car the same day, the system works.
But that's NOT what HEALTH INSURANCE DOES... it doesn't indemnifiy unpredictable health risks to the PATIENTS... it indemnifies unpredictable financial risks to the PROVIDERS... For the patient, it's little more than a discount service, like a Sam's card...
But insurance can't work for the patient, because health care and health maintenance are easily predictable. You KNOW you're going to use your health plan.
And the insurance companies become a layer of privatized government, regulating the industry by injecting cashflow into the system.
Konopelli -
Does it sometimes occur to you that deconstruction of insults pretty much invalidates them.... And it's fun, too!
The insulter never gets it of course.
Good night all. Tomorrow is also a day.
Konopelli -
Does it sometimes occur to you that deconstruction of insults pretty much invalidates them.... And it's fun, too!
The insulter never gets it of course.
Good night all. Tomorrow is also a day.
A point that came far up on this thread and is worth a thread on its own -- are you listening Atrios?-- is whether the Republican Party in its current manifestation really believes in the sanctity of contract. They started out that way, but they are on their way to repudiating the contract with old people, they have repudiated the international contracts -- read treaties -- with other nations -- and they will within several years repudiate the contract represented by the National Debt.
This is not a gang that believes in the rule of law. Some one should get on this case, and show the whole extent of it.
A point that came far up on this thread and is worth a thread on its own -- are you listening Atrios?-- is whether the Republican Party in its current manifestation really believes in the sanctity of contract. They started out that way, but they are on their way to repudiating the contract with old people, they have repudiated the international contracts -- read treaties -- with other nations -- and they will within several years repudiate the contract represented by the National Debt.
This is not a gang that believes in the rule of law. Some one should get on this case, and show the whole extent of it.
"Screw insurance, invest in grilled cheese.
wÒÓ† | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 5:41 pm | # .."
Can't fool me.. That's not the VM. It's Anna-Nicole.. I'm goin' to bid it way up....
In a Nutshell |
OMG WWZS... What Would Zappa Sing?
Don't let the pope see that he'll build a shrine to waffle house or IHOP.
Was that French Toast(Milketoast)? Someone get the General's opinion!
Sacrament and the breaking of the toast?
OT- The Clintoon Libray is so fucking retro Wal-Mart. You can even see the cieling rafters. Someone should freeway blog an everyday low value sign...
"Screw insurance, invest in grilled cheese.
wÒÓ† | Email | Homepage | 11.18.04 - 5:41 pm | # .."
Can't fool me.. That's not the VM. It's Anna-Nicole.. I'm goin' to bid it way up....
In a Nutshell |
OMG WWZS... What Would Zappa Sing?
Don't let the pope see that he'll build a shrine to waffle house or IHOP.
Was that French Toast(Milketoast)? Someone get the General's opinion!
Sacrament and the breaking of the toast?
OT- The Clintoon Libray is so fucking retro Wal-Mart. You can even see the cieling rafters. Someone should freeway blog an everyday low value sign...
I want election fraud insurance. Insurance companies would demand and get paper trails.
I want election fraud insurance. Insurance companies would demand and get paper trails.
One might as well fuck with a firecracker as fuck with China.
...Not suggesting we fuck with Chi