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I'MMA LET YOU FINISH

first?
BloggerNoob | 11.19.04 - 4:17 pm | #

Folks are over at DailyKos trashing Kerry for doing this too late and not caring about recounting the vote. We gotta stop eating our own.
Yoshimi | 11.19.04 - 4:19 pm | #

Already signed it.
watertiger | 11.19.04 - 4:19 pm | #

Well I heard the Vilsack DNC thing is nearly a done deal on CNN. They said Kerry is really pushing hard for Dean not to be the chair
Live Free or Die | 11.19.04 - 4:20 pm | #

Already signed it too.
GN | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:20 pm | #

I'm just saying that by supporting Kerry, we are more effective than by ripping him a new one.
Yoshimi | 11.19.04 - 4:21 pm | #

Done for the wife and I (since work prohibits it).
Barndog | 11.19.04 - 4:21 pm | #

Go Big John.
Hecate | 11.19.04 - 4:21 pm | #

"Well I heard the Vilsack DNC thing is nearly a done deal on CNN. They said Kerry is really pushing hard for Dean not to be the chair"
-Live free or die

Like I said...

Live free, when did you start taking CNN's word? You gonna quote Fox next?
Yoshimi | 11.19.04 - 4:23 pm | #

Also Delay and his minions were bashing the Dems for going on a witchunt detracting away from the business of Congress. Did I even see the dems (except for Pelosi) protesing the Delay Rule?
Live Free or Die | 11.19.04 - 4:23 pm | #

I'm just saying that by supporting Kerry, we are more effective than by ripping him a new one.
Yoshimi

Absolutely. Supporting Kerry does not necessarily equal an endorsement of his every action. It represents support of one facet of the resistance against Bush's extremist policies.
GN | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:23 pm | #

Screw Kerry. I was forced to follow him off the cliff on election day. I'll wait for a real leader to emerge.
jec | 11.19.04 - 4:23 pm | #

I was really impressed with this. We need to come together and get this stuff done. Whether it's too late or not is a stupid discussion. We have a lot of work to do, people! I'm very glad John K. is getting on with it.
Amy | 11.19.04 - 4:24 pm | #

This is a nice, positive way to get and keep people involved. Obviously Shrum and Cahill had nothing to do with it.
Bodini | 11.19.04 - 4:24 pm | #

Yoshimi is right. Let's quit eating our own. The Republicans don't do that to one of theirs when he loses. The find him a nice job, get him on tv, and run him again later. We should take a page from their book. This legislation is a good idea. Make those who want to criminalize abortion put up or shut up. Women who know that they can get health care for their child are less likely to abort the child because they're worried they can't afford it. If the "pro-fetus" crowd votes agains this bill, we can use it against them in '06 and '08. And, many who voted for Bush in the mistaken notion that he'd protect them from terror will support this legislation. It's a good way to build bridges.
Hecate | 11.19.04 - 4:25 pm | #

"I'm just saying that by supporting Kerry, we are more effective than by ripping him a new one."

Not only that, but this is a way for him to demonstrate to a certain kind of voter that he's not just someone who wants to be president. I maintain that a noticeable percentage of the people who voted for Bush are going to be asking themselves at some point "What the hell was I thinking?"

And as the true agenda of the GOP becomes more obvious -- I know, it should be obvious already -- this sort of thing will help swing the pendulum back our way. Conceivably as soon as 2006.
Roddy McCorley | 11.19.04 - 4:26 pm | #

We should sign this and then let Kerry know that we want Dean. His pushing of Vilsack makes all of this meaningless rhetoric. To call on the people to participate but to impose his one will on the DNC makes me uncomfortable.

Who wants what Kerry is calling for? We all do.

Who wants Vilsack? I can't recall one of you saying that you did.

Its bullshit, but I'll sign it and then tell them I want Dean.
jps | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:26 pm | #

Make those who want to criminalize abortion put up or shut up.

Precisely. Who can we email to ensure that this aspect of Kerry's legislation (health care for children=reduced number of abortions) is emphasized?
GN | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:26 pm | #

gee- that guy would make a good president
focus | 11.19.04 - 4:26 pm | #

Screw Kerry. I was forced to follow him off the cliff on election day. I'll wait for a real leader to emerge.

But..but...but jec, Kerry is so electable!!!

Fast forward to mid-2006, as Kerry votes yes on the Iran War Resolution...

blah...
Marcus Wellby | 11.19.04 - 4:26 pm | #

Yosh,

Well I have not heard any dem come out for Dean, except the blogs. The blogs just seemed to be getting ignored. Reid has held up some repub appointments- but for not for why you think. He want his guy at the energy regulatory agency so Yucca can be taken off the table.
Live Free or Die | 11.19.04 - 4:27 pm | #

This is why on the first day Congress is in session next year, I will introduce a bill to provide every child in America with health insurance.

You know what I like about this? It leaves it ambiguous whether he will be doing so as a Senator or as President.

(OK, other parts are less ambiguous, but still, I liked it.)
FlipYrWhig | 11.19.04 - 4:28 pm | #

I already signed the thing, and I'm sitting around here wonderign why I haven't gotten my email yet. Makes me sad.

I think this is the perfect way to use Mr. Kerry at this point - it makes use of the political capital he earned by a year of campaigning and getting his face in the public eye, and it makes certain that it looks like the Republicans are standing on the side opposite from the people. It also makes it look like the Senate Democrats are actually doing something this time.

http://balta.blogspot.com
Balta | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:28 pm | #

This is a nice, positive way to get and keep people involved. Obviously Shrum and Cahill had nothing to do with it.

No fears Bodini, Shrum and Cahill we be back just in time to help with 2008 campaign. Shrum's record is perfect after all...
Marcus Wellby | 11.19.04 - 4:28 pm | #

Reading that message made me sad again that he didn't win. So yes, let's support him now and make the Republicans look like the assholes they are!
Cheryl | 11.19.04 - 4:29 pm | #

We liberals love to eat our own.

How friggin' sad...
Brian | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:29 pm | #

I can't understand how people who supported this man through the entire campaign right up till election day now hate Kerry.

"If" Kerry lost the election, it is not for lack of effort, I still beleive the voting machine gave GWB about 6 million of Kerry's votes, but I can't prove it.

I would have walked through fire to vote for the man on November 2, I am going to continue to support him and his efforts from the Senate floor.

Thanks Big John for all your hard work, and for being an American Patriot.
krsaz | 11.19.04 - 4:30 pm | #

Reading that message made me sad again that he didn't win.

Hopefully, the shadow president tactic will make lots of people sad that we have the wrong administration occupying the WH.
GN | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:30 pm | #

Signed and sealed. John Kerry is in the enviable position of being a senior member of a national lawmaking body with a 200+ page legislative agenda. Glad to see he's not letting 3% of the vote in Ohio stop him from pushing it.
Viserys | 11.19.04 - 4:30 pm | #

Well I have not heard any dem come out for Dean, except the blogs.

You can substitute ordinary people for blogs and I think you've got it right. We are the Democratic party, they control it. Like Kos has been repeating ad nauseum, I'm a reformer.
jps | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:31 pm | #

No fears Bodini, Shrum and Cahill we be back just in time to help with 2008 campaign. Shrum's record is perfect after all...

Ben Had's asshole is showing again.
Barndog | 11.19.04 - 4:31 pm | #

I was just going to post what Yoshimi and Hecate said very well. What they said ~ quit eating our own!

I like John Kerry. I will continue to support him.

I'm as sorry as the rest of the gaggle here that he didn't win, but I have no "buyer's remorse." He did the best he could have, given the state of the media and the ruthless attack machine driven by Karl Rove.

Kerry's trying to do something positive here ~ let's support him. Sign the petition. Stand up for what you believe in.
Vicki Stein | 11.19.04 - 4:31 pm | #

Single Payer for Kids Now!
60 MILLION, Dude | 11.19.04 - 4:31 pm | #

I think Bush and Co. are going to f**k things up SO badly between now and 2008, that Kerry COULD win on the second trial.

In fact, I give these SOBs a year, 18 months tops, to self-destruct.

Something has to happen - there is too much arrogance and incompetence in one place for something NOT to go wrong....big time!
Terry C | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:33 pm | #

I think Bush and Co. are going to f**k things up SO badly between now and 2008, that Kerry COULD win on the second try.

In fact, I give these SOBs a year, 18 months tops, to self-destruct.

Something has to happen - there is too much arrogance and incompetence in one place for something NOT to go wrong....big time!
Terry C | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:33 pm | #

Sorry for the double post, folks, but my computer is acting MOST strangely.
Terry C | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:34 pm | #

On the video he actually says: "once all the votes are counted -- and, BELIEVE ME, they will be counted"
puzzled | 11.19.04 - 4:34 pm | #

"Well I have not heard any dem come out for Dean"

The DNC position is an insiders job whether you like it or not. Dean isn't an insider but he does have influence through us. That is why we need to support Kerry when he acts like Dean AND why we need to make sure Kerry doesn't let up. Our vocal support will keep Kerry and the rest of the Dems from becoming complacent.
Yoshimi | 11.19.04 - 4:34 pm | #

I would have walked through fire to vote for the man on November 2, I am going to continue to support him and his efforts from the Senate floor.

Exactamundo. You walk through fire, too, krsaz?
Vicki Stein | 11.19.04 - 4:34 pm | #

You know, I get the sense that some people are just really really disappointed that Kerry didn't win and have nowhere else but Kerry to direct that anger. I understand it, because, believe me, I'm disappointed, too. But when you're as old as I am, you've learned that life often does disappoint us. Even when we work really hard and do all the right things. It sucks, but it's true. Sometimes the bad guys win, at least for a while. You can't change that. What you can change is your reaction to the shitty things life does to you. Turn your anger and disappointment into something positive. This legislation is one way to do that, but there are lots of others. It won't help our cause to tear down John Kerry. There are better uses for our anger.
Hecate | 11.19.04 - 4:35 pm | #

Yep, I'm diggin' it. Fire up the E-mail every time MediaCo, Inc. tries to parrot rethug talking points. Own every issue except the "we heart Gawd" one. Don't even engage there.

Kerry doesn't have to be the only voice out in front for us, but he's in a good position and has a lot of support right now. Get behind him and anyone else who's willing to get out there and do something constructive.

BTW, anybody see Judy Woodhead today? The showed a report that DeLay was shocked, shocked(!) that Pelosi had more news conferences over the "let the crook keep his position" issue than he did. I'm still trying to figure out what the point of that was.
-
Fielding Mellish | 11.19.04 - 4:35 pm | #

He did the best he could have, given the state of the media and the ruthless attack machine driven by Karl Rove.

Bull. Hiring the same useless consultants and failing to respond the the Swifties was not the best he could do - or if it was he is clueless.

He could have taken the fight to W at the convention instead of keeping it vanilla for the rubes, morons, and other swing-voters.
Marcus Wellby | 11.19.04 - 4:35 pm | #

Let's face it, Kerry is Kerry, not Dean or Clark or whomever. He is not likely to go for the more in-your-face progressive politics and issues that many of us (and definitely myself) desperately want. He was the "electable" candidate, remember?
But Kerry is still in the game and he can help keep the progressive spirit going in DC. His child healthcare plan has a high probability of success because it is not overarching and too ambitious. I'm glad to see Big John coming out of the mourning period. We should all do the same.
mack-in-the-box | 11.19.04 - 4:37 pm | #

Sorry. This is all too depressing. We were good soldiers and rallied behind Kerry. He's a decent and hardworking man, with a great personal story. But I'm listening to Ed Schultz on Air America and he's talking about Hillary.
The clear and strong voice of Dean has been strangled and we're left, the losing team, with the tepid solace of Kerry and Hillary.
I just don't see it.
stinky feet | 11.19.04 - 4:39 pm | #

"Universal" health care for children only? Why is Kerry compromising already? What the hell is wrong with this guy; the US has a higher infant mortality rate than Cuba, more than twice as many newborn babies die in the US than in Sweden. Why is he limiting his "universal" health care to children? Tens of thousands of these children will be dead before they get the chance to benefit from Mr. Kerry's generous offer. What about the mothers who need pre-natal care?

Here's a little hint John; why not think big and at the same time make things real simple for the idiots in the Red states? How about we be real bold and propose universal health care for everybody, That's right e-v-e-r-y-b-o-d-y, that way its actually universal.
Kevin de Bruxelles | 11.19.04 - 4:40 pm | #

I'm glad to see Big John coming out of the mourning period. We should all do the same.
mack-in-the-box

I'm trying, mack, I'm trying...
Vicki Stein | 11.19.04 - 4:41 pm | #

Dem leadership must start saying conservative media everytime they appear on tv or are interviewed. I still haven't seen Kerry's plan mentioned on CNN yet. The term popped up in an earlier thread, but we need to make Kerry our Shadow President. Also, we need to point out how the Republicans are changing rules fast and furious to avoid responsibility. The filibuster thing they just passed....wow are they going to be upset when they're not the majortiy party.
Rock. | 11.19.04 - 4:41 pm | #

Me too. Big Kerry fan here. I'm so happy to see him back--I missed him. He has nothing, absolutely nothing to lose by this.
tully monster | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:41 pm | #

I first read the headline as "Full Kerry Massage."

Been a long day.
Evilboy | 11.19.04 - 4:41 pm | #

Dean isn't an insider but he does have influence through us.

That's right. Dean did not gain his prominence in the party through internal politics; his prominence come via millions of online users salivating at his website and throwing him money. Supporting Kerry and Dean are not mutually exclusive; I intend to continue to do both.
GN | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:42 pm | #

It matters little what you think about Kerry. His proposed bill to insure every kid in America, besides being good for the country, is good politics.

Agreeing with him on this issue does not mean you have to support him in ought-eight.
Holden Caulfield | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:42 pm | #

I think Bush and Co. are going to f**k things up SO badly between now and 2008, that Kerry COULD win on the second trial.

Depends who the Repubs put up. 2008 may be McCane's year. McCane would clobber almost any Dem we put up -- unless the fundies launch some moonbat third party candidate -- the soon to be born again Rev. Ralph Nader? Hmmmm?
Marcus Wellby | 11.19.04 - 4:43 pm | #

you know, disagreeing with one another is not "eating our own."

remember, liberals are not lock-step morons like most blue-collar republicans. we think for ourselves and have differences of opinion.

i'm pissed that kerry has chosen to walk away from all of this. he's made al gore look like a fucking Ultimate Fighting Challenge contender.

i expected more from the guy, frankly. i'm sure most of you feel the same way. being disappointed in kerry doesn't mean we hate him - nor does it mean we're thrilled with his post-nov. 2 performance either.

i'm appreciative of his candidacy and i like him, but again, i expected more, given how close things were.
Jim in LA | 11.19.04 - 4:43 pm | #

I'll say it again as many time as necessary. Hillary must not run in 08, not even as VP. That is the road to a defeat of McGovern-esque proportions.
BlakNo1 | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:44 pm | #

Signed it, bitches.
bdub | 11.19.04 - 4:45 pm | #

Has it occurred to you guys that maybe Dean doesn't want the job? I get the feeling he might try to run for president again.
The Baptist Death Ray | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:45 pm | #

Marcus Wellby -

I don't think McCain will run in ought-eight. Age and skin cancer are taking their toll.
Holden Caulfield | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:46 pm | #

I'll say it again as many time as necessary. Hillary must not run in 08, not even as VP. That is the road to a defeat of McGovern-esque proportions.
BlakNo1

What BlakNo1 said.
Vicki Stein | 11.19.04 - 4:46 pm | #

Signed it. Sent the link to every liberal I know.
Lindsay | 11.19.04 - 4:47 pm | #

By the way, I have to agree with one thing, Shrum and Co. need to frickin' go.

Donna Brazile sucks, too.
bdub | 11.19.04 - 4:47 pm | #

Me too. Big Kerry fan here. I'm so happy to see him back--I missed him. He has nothing, absolutely nothing to lose by this.
tully monster | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:47 pm | #

YAHOO!!!! I so wanted him to do that!...And I have been one of his harshest critics so GO,BIG JOHN...Thank you!
workingwoman | 11.19.04 - 4:47 pm | #

Kerry says,
"
I will fight for a national standard for federal elections that has both transparency and accountability in our voting system. It's unacceptable in the United States that people still don't have full confidence in the integrity of the voting process."

Great ,this means Kerry is behind the recount. I hope that Kerry has some of his bankroll invested to investigate this election-Now.

I am praying this is the case, the coming few weeks will tell. If the Kerry's money is not spent now to investigate this election, then I sadly have to say I will have to waste my future vote/campaigning in supporting a third party.
Steve | 11.19.04 - 4:48 pm | #

Agreeing with him on this issue does not mean you have to support him in ought-eight.
Holden Caulfield

I just don't get why people don't understand that. I totally disagreed with Clinton's welfare reform. I still disagree with it. That doesn't mean that overall, his presidency wasn't good for the country, or that I didn't support progressive measures that I did agree with. Same with Kerry; sure, I'd like universal health care in this country. If covering the babies and children is the most politically feasible proposal right now, as well as a trap for partisan GOPs, then I will support that.
GN | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:48 pm | #

I signed it--enthusiastically!

We need leadership--now--don't you see how Grover Norquist and the boys are are wheeling in the artillery to demolish Social Security--they can't wait to exhume FDR's bones (like they used to dis-inter medieval popes) and piss all over them and throw them into the Hudson River. Their 19th century laissez faire wet dream is about to come true. Before they're done children in America will be working in sweat shops again--as they do in Asia now.

Josh Bolton and Cheney are already ginning up to engage us in another war--this time with Iran...(forget Condi Baby--she's a nobody--a convenient front to innoculate them from too many questions because they think politically correct liberals won't dare ask a black woman too many hard questions).

We need to go on the offensive--let Harry Reid figure out how to play defense--it's all he's good for. We need to hit back hard with our own brand of populism... read Tom Franks book--it is depressing as hell but right on target--we can't out-Jesus the religious right--we don't have too--we've got all the kick-ass ideas right in our own backyard--

Go Big John...go...if a sociopath like Nixon and a complete idiot like Reagan can come back from electoral defeat so can you...

Pity party over--get back to work...everything we hold dear is at stake!
ozymandias | 11.19.04 - 4:49 pm | #

I IMed the link to everyone on my buddy list and one replied, "I'm not paying for people who don't work." I replied with people do work, they just dont get paid enough. His reply? "If people didn't shop at Wal-Mart we wouldn't have a wage problem." I asked if he was in favor of unions then and he said they rip people off.....This is what we're up against.
Rock. | 11.19.04 - 4:50 pm | #

I don't think McCain will run in ought-eight. Age and skin cancer are taking their toll.

Got a point there. Could be Rudy, though not sure if the wingers are ready for a moderate Aye-talian.

I'm sure when the reign of W is over, America won't have the stomach for another fundie, especially when it may take a wheelbarrow full of dollars to buy a loaf of bread.
Marcus Wellby | 11.19.04 - 4:50 pm | #

"I'm just saying that by supporting Kerry, we are more effective than by ripping him a new one."

Meanwhile, John Kerry "rips us a new one" behind the scenes by trying to install Tom Vilsack as head of the DNC and actively working against the nomination of Howard Dean - who supported Kerry throughout the summer and fall.
Paddy O'Toole | 11.19.04 - 4:52 pm | #

Hecate couldn't agree with you more and nicely said.

So to those who don't like JFK or are as disappointed in the election results as am I, so to punish him for the loss, does that mean you won't sign the petition and won't support a bill he proposes to help give healthcare for children. You know healthcare for children, a truly pro-life stance and not just a pro-birth stance.

Please, take your frustration out on others who are more deserving on it, but not on the children that are counting on your help and support.
emal | 11.19.04 - 4:52 pm | #

Depends who the Repubs put up. 2008 may be McCane's year. McCane would clobber almost any Dem we put up

McCaine put his name on the line with his vigorous support of Bush. Trust me, Bush will let him down and sour his name the same way in which he soured Powell's (remember all of the talk of Powell for President? Don't hear any of that now even from those who forgive him his Bushist sins, do you?)The way the GOP is going, McCain would have to run as an independent to escape the taint of this party.
GN | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:52 pm | #

I still maintain that if we had run Jesus Christ as our candidate they would have vilified him as a hippie and idealist. We did great. And I am so happy that JFK is stepping up to the plate again to save this nation. It will be hard, but we can get through this and make a leap forward. After the way W and his crew are fucking up, it will be many, many years before another rethug is elected again.

may just be wishful thinking, but what the hay - gotta start somewhere.
BTW Librarian - thanks for the updates. I have your map as a screensaver at work.

Anybody know how to run spell checker in Haloscan - I seem to forget how to sepll whenever I tri to post
QuiltLady in NY | 11.19.04 - 4:53 pm | #

People, people, people.
Howard Dean finished well up the track in Iowa BEFORE they really took a strap to him. Is there anything in the historical record that indicates that the Republicans wouldn't have taken the hide off him in November?
If he couldn't beat Kerry -- remember the Iowa caucuses were going to be perfect for the new cyber-based campaigning -- what would he have done with the Rove machine?
Let him organize his own network and make it so formidable that the DNC has to give it a big old place at the table. The DNC chair would drown the Good Doctor in bureaucracy. He works best as a guerilla.
Jim Madison's Dog | 11.19.04 - 4:54 pm | #

Sorry for my "McCaine" name misspelling.
GN | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:54 pm | #

"Has it occurred to you guys that maybe Dean doesn't want the job? I get the feeling he might try to run for president again."

He can do both.

Paddy O'Toole, read my other post up thread.
Yoshimi | 11.19.04 - 4:54 pm | #

It's also a neat bit of jiu-jitsu.

The R's are going to wail and cry about this bill, and for each groan, there's a simple answer: You mean you're actually against health care for children??

That's why it's not a proposal for universal health care. That's too easy for an R to argue against. But who would dare publicly admit that they're against health insurance for children?

Oh that JK, he's a sly one he is.
strawhat | 11.19.04 - 4:55 pm | #

Fast forward to mid-2006, as Kerry votes yes on the Iran War Resolution...

Bullshit, like there's going to be a resolution.
John | 11.19.04 - 4:55 pm | #

It matters little what you think about Kerry. His proposed bill to insure every kid in America, besides being good for the country, is good politics.

'Murkans will just view that as taking more of their money in taxes to give to blacks and illegal aliens.
Incognito | 11.19.04 - 4:56 pm | #

Oh yeah, and signed it. Go JK.
strawhat | 11.19.04 - 4:56 pm | #

Here's a little hint John; why not think big and at the same time make things real simple for the idiots in the Red states? How about we be real bold and propose universal health care for everybody, That's right e-v-e-r-y-b-o-d-y, that way its actually universal.

Wouldn't work right now. Just gives thugs the opportunity to paint Kerry even more with the pinko brush (that plays so well with red-staters) now that they've retained and strengthened the upper hand. But who could be against insuring children? If it passes, these children and their parents win. If it dies, the thugs look like baby-killers. At this point, universal only has a chance if done in steps. This is the first step.
joycamp | 11.19.04 - 4:56 pm | #

ozymandias

Excellent, you are my new best friend.
QuiltLady in NY | 11.19.04 - 4:56 pm | #

Paddy O'Toole = tool

plenty room over at kos for ya.
hadenough | 11.19.04 - 4:57 pm | #

Has Dean even expressed an interest in the DNC chair?
Backslider | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:57 pm | #

Fine, sign it..

and prepare for Kerry begging spam from now until after his DNC appointee continues to erode our position in the house and senate.
Nancy Richardson | 11.19.04 - 4:57 pm | #

I signed the petition. I doubt the bill will pass, though.
not you | 11.19.04 - 4:57 pm | #

But who would dare publicly admit that they're against health insurance for children?

Dude, the dems have to put kids from "red" states on TV and say "Would you vote against little Sally having a healthly childhood?"
John | 11.19.04 - 4:57 pm | #

Marcus Wellby:

What go is it doing bitching about it now. If you supported his presidential campaign, support his campaign from the Senate floor.

Vicki, nah, it was raining.
krsaz | 11.19.04 - 4:57 pm | #

That's why it's not a proposal for universal health care. That's too easy for an R to argue against. But who would dare publicly admit that they're against health insurance for children?

We need to watch out for and be ready to criticize a revised version of Kerry's legislation which will undoubtedly be proposed to allow partisan GOPs an escape hatch.
GN | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:58 pm | #

I would just like to say that I'm a little ticked off at the people who simultaneously rail about the omnipresent evil permeating the government right now (which I tend to agree with) and who bitch at our spokespersons because they aren't trying to get Absolutely Everything We Want Right Now Dammit.

It's like thumbing your nose at Godzilla, okay? For whatever reasons, we are not the ones in power right now, and that constrains our tactics. We have to pick our fights carefully, and whenever possible reframe them in a context that improves our standing.

This is a brilliant example. Anyone who opposes this is against health care for kids. To hell with No Child Left Behind -- this is No Child Left to Die.

It's Rocky 3 time. We got the wind knocked out of our sails by an opposition that hit us from all directions and didn't let us respond. So we build up our strength, change our strategy and tactics, and take each part of each battle as it comes, and quit fuckin' whining.

I want everything our way, too. Can't have it right now. We'll get it back; it'll take awhile. We have to start before we can finish, though. And we have to do it together.
filkertom | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:58 pm | #

Has Dean even expressed an interest in the DNC chair?

You tell me.

http://www.blogforamerica.com/ar...ves/ 005564.html
Nancy Richardson | 11.19.04 - 4:59 pm | #

I think a health care plan to insure working people, (you know, the ones who actually vote,) would resonate much more.
Incognito | 11.19.04 - 4:59 pm | #

and prepare for Kerry begging spam from now until after his DNC appointee continues to erode our position in the house and senate.
Nancy Richardson

If you're disgusted with the national DNC, which undoubtedly some are and will not be convinced to support Kerry's efforts, why not try your hand at focusing exclusively on your state DNC, so that you may still contribute to progressive reforms, but don't have to support a national politician that you seem to despise?
GN | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 5:00 pm | #

"Fine, sign it..

and prepare for Kerry begging spam from now until after his DNC appointee continues to erode our position in the house and senate." Nancy Richardson

Throw him a $20 every once in a while, ya cheapy!
YDD | 11.19.04 - 5:00 pm | #

Folks are over at DailyKos trashing Kerry for doing this too late and not caring about recounting the vote. We gotta stop eating our own.
Yoshimi |

It's a feast in here as well, I attribute this to individuals who never really matured and when faced with disappointments such as losing the election, they would rather verbally assault like minded people that face facts and get off their asses to do something for change.
By the way doing the same thing that made us lose is probably not the way to go about it.
Dawna | 11.19.04 - 5:00 pm | #

Well, I became a big Kerry fan through the course of the campaign, and I still love and respect him.

I feel just about the opposite way about the 'strategists' and the other bloated self-important fatasses in the upper echelons of the Democratic Party. I dunno much about Vilsack, but big John wanted him to run as veep. I'm inclined to give him a chance, if he's picked.

This email thing is good, it's very good. If us libs can't cosponsor this, then what good are we?
-
Phredd | 11.19.04 - 5:00 pm | #

Donna Brazile sucks, too.
bdub

Double Amen to that. I almost dropped a brick when I read that she was being floated as a contender for the DNC post. We need a spokesperson who can feed Mehlman his balls, not politely take up the "throw rug" position every time the conversation gets a little bit nasty.

Speaking of which, I loved the Clinton/Jennings interview. Truly priceless - Big Dog raised some of the SCLM points that have been bugging us since '92.
-
Fielding Mellish | 11.19.04 - 5:00 pm | #

I think a health care plan to insure working people, (you know, the ones who actually vote,) would resonate much more.

Kids first. Working folks have kids. They'd love the relief of not having to worry about the wee ones getting sick (and thereby bankrupting the family). Parents vote Dem.

Kids remember a Dem made sure they could go to a hospital. Kids remember a GOP frother saying they shouldn't get that care. Kids grow up to vote. They vote Dem.
John | 11.19.04 - 5:02 pm | #

Me too. Big Kerry fan here. I'm so happy to see him back--I missed him. He has nothing, absolutely nothing to lose by this.
tully monster | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 5:02 pm | #

Nancy,
Thanks for the link, but frankly, all I see is a call to arms for Democrats to push for more accountability with the national committee and the elected represenatives, which is a very, very good thing. In other words, encouraging people to get more active in deciding policy for the party. What I'm looking for is something where the man himself says, "Yeah, I'll take the gig."

Unless I missed it, of course...
Backslider | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 5:03 pm | #

I don't get the Vilsack thing. What's his agenda, other than "saving" the Iowa caucus? And F**K the Iowa caucus! It's the biggest problem with the nomination process. If Vilsack is nominated, it will confirm my fears - that the dems have lurched to the right. I mean first Harry Reid and now Tom Vilsack? These dems will no longer represent me.

By the way, Baptist Death Ray, Dean does want the job; he's been actively campaigning for it. If he doesn't get it, I sincerely hope he'll launch a third party. I can't support Republican Lite.
MeLoseBrain? | 11.19.04 - 5:03 pm | #

I fully support Senator Kerry in his quest to step up as a leader of a party. I also support Howard Dean as for DNC chair.

Sign the petition and then send an email to the Kerry campaign or his office. Let him know that we need different voices to lead this party, We need a broad message and the best way to that is with ideas from all across the spectrum and not the same old ideas that have continued are national electoral decline.
Will | 11.19.04 - 5:04 pm | #

"Kids first. Working folks have kids. They'd love the relief of not having to worry about the wee ones getting sick (and thereby bankrupting the family). Parents vote Dem."

I think it could be good for small businesses who can't afford to cover a whole family as well.
Yoshimi | 11.19.04 - 5:05 pm | #

Kerry who?
Stuart Stark | 11.19.04 - 5:05 pm | #

One issue that is confusing me at the moment - or leaving me the tiniest shred of hope - a couple weeks ago, maybe Nov. 1, it was reported that the Kerry campaign held 45 million in case of a recount. This week, it's 15 million. Is there something there? In my feverish little mind, Kerry's buying a big white horse & a cavalry. Or maybe the Prince Charming socialization I received throughout my life has rattled me senseless?
All the same, I am happily signing the petition. It's the first bit of news to come out that hasn't made me ill this week.
veruca | 11.19.04 - 5:05 pm | #

Fighting fire with soggy toast.
H Walsh | 11.19.04 - 5:05 pm | #

COUNT OUR VOTES, John Kerry.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 5:05 pm | #

I don't think McCain will run in ought-eight.

I don't think he would survive a Republican primary run by theocratic goons.

McCain isn't virulently anti-choice, nor is he sufficiently hateful toward gays and blacks and Muslims.
Seraphiel | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 5:05 pm | #

I think it could be good for small businesses who can't afford to cover a whole family as well.

Dont doubt it, but I was approaching it from a kitchen table POV.
John | 11.19.04 - 5:06 pm | #

It's a feast in here as well, I attribute this to individuals who never really matured and when faced with disappointments such as losing the election, they would rather verbally assault like minded people that face facts and get off their asses to do something for change.

I think it also stems from a lack of understanding about progressive movements which challenge power. Bushism is not a political movement; it is a cronyish powermongering ideology which is extreme, nihilistic, and not open to information and analysis. I think folks resisting it would benefit from reading about the Civil Rights Movement, which suffered the same apathy, counterproductive in-fighting and attempts at demoralization by the those in political power. It would inform an analysis of this election and would perhaps stem the cannibalization of the progressive movement.
GN | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 5:06 pm | #

The Rebulican Candidate for President with be Arhnuld, and he might be unbeatable.

There is already a movement to change the constitution so he can run.
krsaz | 11.19.04 - 5:07 pm | #

Paddy O'Toole = tool

plenty room over at kos for ya.
hadenough | Email | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 4:57 pm | #

Dissent is not allowed on this site? Thanks for letting me know - I did not realize that this was the "John Kerry is Infallible" blog.
Paddy O'Toole | 11.19.04 - 5:08 pm | #

What GN said at 5:06. They'd love nothing better than for us to give up in frustrated despondence.
filkertom | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 5:08 pm | #

The repuke elite will just spin it that it'll only go toward blacks and illegals. It needs to be clearly seen as going toward lower blue collar working people specifically as helping the demographic which always votes against their best interest. Children can still go to the emergency room.
Incognito | 11.19.04 - 5:09 pm | #

The Rebulican Candidate for President with be Arhnuld, and he might be unbeatable.

krsaz

I think he'd run into the same problems as would McCain; he'd be unable to form the unholy neocon-paleocon-religious zealot triad that the GOP was forced to assemble to gain power.
GN | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 5:10 pm | #

What GN said at 5:06.

hear hear.
Yoshimi | 11.19.04 - 5:10 pm | #

"Folks are over at DailyKos trashing Kerry for doing this too late and not caring about recounting the vote. We gotta stop eating our own."--Yoshimi

As a lifelong liberal Dem who has never voted outside the party, I am STRONGLY in favor of RECOUNTING THE VOTE, and canvassing the voters who were not allowed to vote.

And that is why WE donated to the Dem recounting fund, sitting unused in coffers somewhere.

"It's a feast in here as well, I attribute this to individuals who never really matured and when faced with disappointments such as losing the election,"

We didn't lose the FUCKING election, we won by landslide and the election was STOLEN.

Can YOU stand in line for 22 hours to vote? No??

THEN YOU DON'T GET TO VOTE!

Maybe you feel 'mature' enough to take vote fraud sitting down. But those people who were disenfranchized don't feel so complacent.

If you don't fight for democracy, then why pretend to be a Democrat?

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 5:10 pm | #

The Rebulican Candidate for President with be Arhnuld, and he might be unbeatable.

If that's true then what does that say about the American electorate and why are we trying to save them instead of planning our escape?
Incognito | 11.19.04 - 5:10 pm | #

It's always better to do something than nothing.

A real winner picks himself up after losing the big game and prepares to play next week. There is always a next week or next season.

A real winner sticks to his guns after he loses, because he knows he's right and he'll get them next time.

A real winner doesn't challenge every bad call. He plays harder in the next game so bad calls won't cost him victory.

A real winner tries even when he thinks he will fail because expending no effort guarantees failure. Effort can lead to unexpected success.

A real winner sticks with his team even though he doesn't agree with the coach 100% of the time, because the other guys are really bad and deserve to lose.

A real winner learns from his mistakes, he is not crippled or ashamed by them.

A real winner tries anything he can do to win, there is no right way or wrong way to score points.

Are YOU a Vince Lombardi Democrat?
Alderaan | 11.19.04 - 5:11 pm | #

Memes: Conservative media should be "conservative-owned and run media", since the liars on the right will do the usual "reporters are lefties" bullshit, but can't deny that ownership, management and editorial staffs are conservative if not radical. It's long past time to change the language and have it reflect the truth of the matter. "Cheap-labor conservatives", "radical monarchists", "voting against their economic self-interest", etc., etc.Take it to them, you'll be surprised at the reactions (generally stunned and confused silence, followed by whining), it can be very funny. It's my new hobby, and has helped lift my mood. Turn the boat into the fire, baby!
Ronjazz | 11.19.04 - 5:11 pm | #

We need all the help we can get, but the actual leaders can only be seen by what they actually do, rather than via the BS propaganda that has become the current political practice. And I'm still enough of a yokel to think that both the rural-reds and metro-magentas will respond favorably to actions that demonstratably improve some aspect of our country. I think we should pressure the dems in congress to quit trying to straddle that ridiculous fence and be Democrats instead of not-Republicans. Give people a reason to vote for you rather than against the other guy (and I'm talking to you, Harry Reid!).
All of this has been argued for some time, but at this point we have nothing to lose.
mack-in-the-box | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 5:12 pm | #

I think folks resisting it would benefit from reading about the Civil Rights Movement, which suffered the same apathy, counterproductive in-fighting and attempts at demoralization by the those in political power.

Good point. "Voices of Freedom" is an amazing oral account of the Civil Rights movement from people who were very active in it.

The difference between now and then is that our movement is very decentralized, I feel. We have prominent people,but we don't have a MLK.
John | 11.19.04 - 5:12 pm | #

My comment disappeared but here it is: I have been a frequent and sometimes harsh critic of Kerry but I like this and will support this effort and am open to any positive and strong stands he takes. Good for him. I love Howdie too, but shit, aint there so way for them to work together rather than against each other? I want both Howard Dean and Kerry, our almost victorious candidate to have a say in our party and its direction. I tolerate a fair number of mistakes, as long as they are straight up about it and try to do better, so I won't hold it against either when they sin from an excess of trying to fight the good fight. I want them both to be successful - truly and absolutely so I will definitely sign and forward the petition. Kerry can count on me to help in any way that I can.
workingwoman | 11.19.04 - 5:13 pm | #

I think Kerry will be good in Congress. I think that he has learned a lesson running for prez. That said, hte definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. The only thing that Dean did wrong was the scream. He showed dems that bashing bush was OK and that there was a different way to raise money besides corporate addiction. He should be the DNC chair, while Kerry attacks in the Senate.

Dems should force a vote on the abortion issue to make the repubs vote where retoric is or they will pull hte same shit in '06, and ,08-and dems will lose more seats.
Live Free or Die | 11.19.04 - 5:13 pm | #

Did I mention that I'm in the awl bidness? O, the boils on my nutsack... SO furstrating

Jeb in '08
Number One Troll | 11.19.04 - 5:14 pm | #

I say we offer the Republicans a deal. They can change the Constitution to let Arnold run if we can change it to let the Big Dawg run again.
Hecate | 11.19.04 - 5:14 pm | #

"I'm as sorry as the rest of the gaggle here that he didn't win, but I have no "buyer's remorse." He did the best he could have, given the state of the media and the ruthless attack machine driven by Karl Rove."

My thoughts exactly, Vicki
redhead | 11.19.04 - 5:14 pm | #

"The Rebulican Candidate for President with be Arhnuld, and he might be unbeatable."

Unbeatable? Yeah, if we live in Vote Fraud Nation like we do now, Donald Duck is unbeatable. Elect Sigmund Freud! Somebody put some air in the fuckdoll, let's make it president. Who cares?

Governor Vote-Fraud of Austria was not legally elected. We caught Diebold redhanded stealing that vote, but our SecState ('Katherine' Shelley) has a new swimming pool and the kids really liked Tahiti.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 5:14 pm | #

Paul. Get a grip, dude. We're all still angry, we're all still bitter. Some things are still pending. But, for now, we move on to different battles.
filkertom | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 5:16 pm | #

my favorite part of Kerry's message:

calling Bush "extremist"

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
pitbullEmily | 11.19.04 - 5:17 pm | #

Wow, the comments make you wonder how much chance of a successful presidency Kerry would have, if so many supporters trash him for not being perfect. Kerry was not my choice for the Democratic candidate. And the Democratic Party is, as Gore Vidal keeps saying, simply one of the two wings of the Property Party. However, as Noam Chomsky points out, even small differences in something as large as the U.S. government can make enormous differences in people's lives. I won't settle for small differences, but if that's what's available, I'll take them, stick a wedge in them, and lever hard left all the while working on the vision that the Property Party keeps trying to stifle.

This election's grassroots support in both money and energy should give us some attention. Let's use it to push Kerry where we want him to go. He says he'll fight? OK, let's see him prove it, and fight with him as long as he's really got his gun out.
nihil obstet | 11.19.04 - 5:17 pm | #

We liberals love to eat our own.

How friggin' sad...
Brian

Not all of us, but alot of them do seem to visit this blog. Yes truely fucking sad.
Dawna | 11.19.04 - 5:17 pm | #

""I'm as sorry as the rest of the gaggle here that he didn't win, but I have no "buyer's remorse." He did the best he could have..."

You realize you sound like an elementary school teacher describing the performance of someone's retarded kid.

THE ELECTION IS NOT OVER FOR THREE WEEKS.

While you're putting tinsel in your hair and pouring the rum toddies, there are a BUNCH of us fighting to get our rights from the mfers who stole them.

Little Johnny is trying so hard to kiss Bush's ass, it makes me, a continuing Little Johnny supporter, so mad my blood is boiling.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 5:17 pm | #

"And that is why WE donated to the Dem recounting fund, sitting unused in coffers somewhere."

Paul,
Read what GN said upthread. How do you know Kerry is sitting on this stash? Also, read Kerry's statement. Who says he doesn't care about recounting the vote? ADDITIONALLY, attorneys cost money even when they are standing around - A LOT of money.

Now that we are on this topic, I want to know why and how a certain candidate blew through $400 million dollars in the primary and didn't win. I can whine that I want my money back but it doesn't do any good.
Yoshimi | 11.19.04 - 5:17 pm | #

it took 17 days for his analysts to craft this statement. too bad world isn't running on kerry time.
Ross Kubler | 11.19.04 - 5:18 pm | #

"Regardless of the outcome of this election, once all the votes are counted -- and they will be counted"

It ain't over.
EkCenTriK | 11.19.04 - 5:18 pm | #

Part of me imagines that Kerry conceded because he knew that he couldn't manage a bitterly divided nation, so he'd take the fight to the Senate, where he's more experienced.

Also, I think he stepped back for a couple weeks to decompress and allowed the Right to get all frothing, knowing that it'll leave a bad taste in people's mouths. Now, he's ready to push their madness to the forefront through very clever legislation that'll either have the GOP bend or look like the greedy hypocrites they are.

Not perfect, but I like the new fighting technique.
John | 11.19.04 - 5:20 pm | #

Thanks for the link, but frankly, all I see is a call to arms for Democrats to push for more accountability with the national committee and the elected represenatives, which is a very, very good thing. In other words, encouraging people to get more active in deciding policy for the party. What I'm looking for is something where the man himself says, "Yeah, I'll take the gig."

Unless I missed it, of course...

Lemme spell it out for you. This is the first shot out the gate to signal Dean supporters to begin to show up in the next month at meetings at Democratic Clubs (or whatever the structure the Democratic Party is in you state.)

The entire strategy behind DFA is get their people inside the power structure of the party from the ground up, in many cases re-animating party apartatus which has been, in some cases non-exisitent.

The word from Burlington is that Dean isn't going to show his hand until he has to, but right now he is working with Gore's people, plus his other alliances with the service unions, the AFLCIO, groups like ACT, and the umbrella groups who were actually funding the grassroots efforts in the battleground states to counter the business as usual DLC Democrats who have allied themselves with Kerry for now.

Right now, Kerry sees Dean as his only viable threat for the moment, but he really shouldn't. I happen to think that Dean is a stalking horse for Gore.

And for youse guys who don't know or want to care what is at stake here, there is a huge power struggle which has come out of this recent disaster, and make less than salient comments about "eating our own"

lemme break it to you like this:

if you want your party to elect people so that we make gains the house and senate...as well as have down ballot victories so there will be people who actually are familiar with with Democrats actually stand for....

you better get down on your knees and pray that Dean wins this battle.

Or else get used to a decade of Republican Rule.
Nancy Richardson | 11.19.04 - 5:20 pm | #

It matters little what you think about Kerry. His proposed bill to insure every kid in America, besides being good for the country, is good politics.

Here is the story of how an attempt to provide universal health care for children ballooned into a milk-swollen teat for insurance companies, lawyers, contract social workers, and bus drivers that threatens to bankrupt the government that provides it.

Even in the unlikely event that such a proposal as this makes it out of committee, I have yet to hear Kerry say anything that gives me reason to expect anything different from such a program at the federal level.

Interim half-measures doomed to failure will be a political liability in reaching the complete reform we need.
theodoric | 11.19.04 - 5:20 pm | #

nihil obstet: I totally agree with your comment.Couldnt have said it better myself!
workingwoman | 11.19.04 - 5:21 pm | #

It's not Kerry's fault. He was check-mated back on Jan. 20 2000 when Bush and his gang of thieves barged into office.
Incognito | 11.19.04 - 5:21 pm | #

"Wow, the comments make you wonder how much chance of a successful presidency Kerry would have, if so many supporters trash him for not being perfect."

He's not perfect? WHAT ABOUT VOTE FRAUD DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

This isn't about Kerry being anything like perfect. It's not even about his appeasing concession WITHOUT THE SLIGHTEST AUDIT OR CONFIRMATION OF THE ELECTION RESULTS.

Our votes do NOT belong to John Kerry, and our right to legal elections is not impinged by his remarkably-early concession.

YOU who think you are in the good fight, though, you just give in because it's Christmas in White Voter land. So what, we didn't 'win,' boo hoo.

Meanwhile, blacks huddle around fires in trash cans, and everyone knows why it is a WASTE OF TIME to vote in the White Folks' America.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 5:21 pm | #

On another note:

In the spirit of "Godwin's Law"* I propose "Lombardi's Law":

"All discussion forum threads eventually evoke a football analogy"

And yeah, this includes both US football and rest-of-the-world football.

Disclosure: I really really wanted to include a "...every yard, every inch..." analogy in my last comment :>)

* Godwin's Law: "All discussion forum threads eventually evoke Nazis/Hitler"
mack-in-the-box | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 5:22 pm | #

"It's not Kerry's fault. He was check-mated back on Jan. 20 2000 when Bush and his gang of thieves barged into office.
Incognito"

When did John Kerry become Chamberlain?

It wasn't Kerry's fault. He drove the boat past the ambush just like everybody else, and some guys fell overboard, so what?

It's not like he could go back for them.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 5:23 pm | #

Liberals always try to appeal to people's better nature. The repuke elite always appeals to the worst in human beings usually with code words. Guess which side usually wins? My health care will help us win. The child health care plan will be spun. And it's not like we're selling out or anything with my plan.
Incognito | 11.19.04 - 5:24 pm | #

Nancy "Richardson: You make some interesting points. I will wait and see what shakes out...right now I am going with any positive, fighting message from no matter what quarter. I just want to f****** STAND UP!!!
workingwoman | 11.19.04 - 5:24 pm | #

'll say it again as many time as necessary. Hillary must not run in 08, not even as VP. That is the road to a defeat of McGovern-esque proportions.
BlakNo1

Amen!
Dawna | 11.19.04 - 5:24 pm | #

"you better get down on your knees and pray that Dean wins this battle.

Or else get used to a decade of Republican Rule."
-Nancy Richardson

Nancy, I'm gonna go against my recommendation above and "eat my own". You lady give Dean supporters a bad name. Wonder why Dean isn't getting support for the DNC post? Because of absolutist nutso's like yourself.

Coming from a DFA MeetUp host, you need to get over yourself. You HAVE NO idea what Dean's plans are so you should keep quiet until you do.
Yoshimi | 11.19.04 - 5:27 pm | #

"Part of me imagines that Kerry conceded because he knew that he couldn't manage a bitterly divided nation, so he'd take the fight to the Senate, where he's more experienced."

Hilarious. So he's a FRAUD, is that it? He ran but had no intention of winning?

This country is NOT as bitterly divided as the opinion polls, based on absurdly small samples, 'predicted.'

We won the election by landslide, but Diebold can flip ten million votes as easily as you can flip your light switch.

And now the people who don't give a shit about vote fraud and stolen elections are doing APOLOGIA for the traitors who took the votes. And wearing fucking haloes for it.

Tinsel hair and a big fat smile is no way to take a fucking from fascists.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 5:27 pm | #

Liberals always try to appeal to people's better nature. The repuke elite always appeals to the worst in human beings usually with code words. Guess which side usually wins?

They "win" because we don't call them on their code words. Frankly, we can appeal to the better nature and call themon their bullshit at the same time. We just need an elegant statesman to do the better angels bit while a bomb thrower says in plain english (so the tv viwers can get it) that the GOP don't give a rat's ass about healthy kids, and if they did they'd get behind Kerry.
John | 11.19.04 - 5:28 pm | #

"Kerry doesn't have to be the only voice out in front for us, but he's in a good position and has a lot of support right now. Get behind him and anyone else who's willing to get out there and do something constructive."

Call him the Senator who represents 56 million Americans, America's Senator.
jh | 11.19.04 - 5:28 pm | #

Nancy Richardson,
That's all as maybe, but like I said, I was curious if Dean had actually said he wanted the job. He hasn't and, according to you, is playing his cards close to his chest, which is probably smart in this case.

Now, about the whole "getting on my knees and praying for Dean to be chosen", I dunno about all that. I lost my belief in knights on white horses about, oh, 12-14 years ago or so. And, frankly, I was never completely sold on Dean back during the primaries, but that's neither here nor there. Nevertheless, I do think the DNC needs a massive, MASSIVE shake-up in leadership. Dean might be the guy for the job as long as he doesn't forget upon whose shoulders he was carried.
Backslider | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 5:29 pm | #

vilsack? yeah, i think i might have to look elsewhere too if that happens.

why don't all the democrats switch their party affiliation to republican and just get it over with? then there will actually be moderate republicans, and a real progressive party can step into the vacuum.
the worm | 11.19.04 - 5:29 pm | #

Paul, the deck was stacked against Kerry from the beginning. The media was against him and for Bush. Also, Bush and his band rigged the election with Diebold since they were in office. I had hoped there would be such an overwhelming turnout to negate that but no.
Incognito | 11.19.04 - 5:30 pm | #

* Godwin's Law: "All discussion forum threads eventually evoke Nazis/Hitler"

Godwin's Law
theodoric | 11.19.04 - 5:31 pm | #

"Nancy, I'm gonna go against my recommendation above and "eat my own"."

Yeah, because NONE of us thought you were honestly pledging solidarity in the first place.

I continue to support John Kerry. He's the ELECTED president, after all, just like Gore was. I have NEVER voted outside the party, my whole 30 years of voting.

But the circular firing squad is YOU FOLKS shooting down the Dean wing, and then telling the Dean wing to shut up.

When Bush drops his pants and shows you his ass, make sure you put a doily on before you KISS IT.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 5:31 pm | #

>You HAVE NO idea what Dean's plans are so you should keep quiet until you do.

Well, that is very interesting.

I am not going to bother to drop any names with such an important meetup host.

Go to hell.
Nancy Richardson | 11.19.04 - 5:32 pm | #

Paddy O'Toole,

"Dissent is not allowed on this site?"

It's not my site. If it was you'd be blocked.

Dissent is not whining because you don't get your way. If you have a difference of opinion, fine. Add to the discussion. Don't accuse Kerry of ripping us a new one because he doesn't do exactly what you want.

Is Kerry working to install Vilsack? He hasn't made a public statement. Oh, that's right, he is working behind the scenes. And you get your behind the scenes info from where? drudge? Anyway, if you don't like Kerry supporting Vilsack, if Kerry is, fine, make a point. Accusing and whining isn't making a point.
hadenough | 11.19.04 - 5:32 pm | #

"remember the Iowa caucuses were going to be perfect for the new cyber-based campaigning"

Watching documentaries about the election, I got the impression that the people of Iowa didn't appreciate the massive Deaniac assault on Iowa, It seemed like it pissed them off to have all these out-of-staters telling them what to do.
krsaz | 11.19.04 - 5:34 pm | #

"I had hoped there would be such an overwhelming turnout to negate that but no."
-Incognito

I'm betting John Kerry did too. It was too close to muddy the water with all the attorneys though.

Paul, I understand your pain but your posts are too eratic for any understanding and support from the "mainstream".
Yoshimi | 11.19.04 - 5:34 pm | #

Hi, "Dawna".

What's a "*ick"?

Thanks.

.
spork_incident | 11.19.04 - 5:34 pm | #

They "win" because we don't call them on their code words.

The reason code words work is because it allows the person who it's intended for to rationalize themselves they're not awful while saying secretly, we know you're a bigot, but it's all right, we're with you.

Look, the masses are asses. Get over it if you want to win elections.
Incognito | 11.19.04 - 5:34 pm | #

If you don't fight for democracy, then why pretend to be a Democrat?

--
Paul

That is your opinion, and trust me there will be people leaving the party by the boat load becuase of people like you who do eat their own.
Dawna | 11.19.04 - 5:34 pm | #

"Paul, the deck was stacked against Kerry from the beginning. ...I had hoped there would be such an overwhelming turnout to negate that but no.--Incognito"

Incognito, you racist prick.

The largest voter turnout in 40 years.

No one saw big Bush rallies. No one saw car after car with W stickers. You had to sign loyalty oaths to get into his pathetic rallies. Meanwhile, Kerry supporters packed every civic square in the country.

Disbelieve your own eyes, but I know what my eyes and ears told me. I heard 100s of Rs, from all over the country, tell me that they were voting Kerry, that Bush had wrecked the country, destroyed the economy, and lied the country into war.

What COWARDICE is on display in White Voterland.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 5:35 pm | #

But the circular firing squad is YOU FOLKS shooting down the Dean wing, and then telling the Dean wing to shut up.

You are doing the same thing. Pot meet kettle.
Dawna | 11.19.04 - 5:36 pm | #

Dean might be the guy for the job as long as he doesn't forget upon whose shoulders he was carried.

Hmm. And you had to say that so soon after someone mentioned Godwin's Law.

Actually, my problem is not with Dean himself so much as with Deaniacs and their unshakeable certainty that they're saving the world.

I'm sure Dean is a fine man and a capable leader, but goddamnit, can't we find ANYONE to lead who didn't go to Yale?

I haven't always been a big Al Gore fan, but right now, I'd follow Al Gore just about anywhere he wanted to go.
theodoric | 11.19.04 - 5:37 pm | #

Oh, and Karen Hughes and Rove supposedly saying they were nervous on election night was just lying spin.
Incognito | 11.19.04 - 5:38 pm | #

No one saw car after car with W stickers

In Fresno, Kern, Tulare, Madera & Merced counties there sure was a hell of alot of those stupid fucking W stickers everywhere. And this in a royal blue state.
Dawna | 11.19.04 - 5:39 pm | #

"f you don't fight for democracy, then why pretend to be a Democrat?

"That is your opinion, and trust me there will be people leaving the party by the boat load becuase of people like you who do eat their own.
Dawna"

Trust you? Why should I trust you?

And your statement is non-responsive.

I was the FIRST voice on atrios to state, categorically, that we had no choice and no better strategy than SOLIDARITY.

It is YOU who are not practicing solidarity, in your rush to hide how scared you are, from yourself!

We're fighting. After all, we're losing people, good people, every day. They are getting their asses shot off in Iraq so that USPNAC can take over the ME, committing genocide in the process.

Take your shiny fake sincerity and shove it a mile high.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 5:39 pm | #

People who continue to do the traditional Dem thing and attack our candidates when they lose, thus taking their eye off the real enemy, and who then call themselves "reformers" are fooling only themselves. They are not the reformers. They are for "more of the same" for the Democratic Party, they are the ones against change, and they are holding the Democratic party back.

This is simply backwards. In fact, this same message is trotted out by our beloved Democratic party after every loss. That they - our incumbents and their advisors - know what is best for us. That we need to trust and support them going forward no matter how poor their judgment was during the last election - or the one before that, and so on. We did this in spades after the 2002 election, really a quite dismal performance by the national party. But this time we really need to draw the line, and the way to do that is not to chase people out of the party. We need reform from within.

I still support Kerry and his efforts. However, if the reports of the behind the scenes machinations to install a DLC water carrier as head of the party are true, then I take issue with Kerry's judgment. Also, if this is already going on, then we cannot just simply sit back and wait to see it play out. By then it will be too late.

People talk about having a "Sista Souljah moment". Well I would like to see Kerry (or Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi) show that they get it by having a "Sista DLC moment." Yeah, I know - I'm a dreamer.
Paddy O'Toole | 11.19.04 - 5:40 pm | #

Good lord, I think I fell asleep twice while watching Kerry's video. Maybe because he looked like he was going to fall asleep.

A laughable attempt to keep himself relevant in the party after his loss. Doesn't want to admit to himself that 90% of his support were folks against Bush, not for him.

He also doesn't want to admit that he's already joined the "one and done club" of Dukakis and Gore. In other words, he will not be heard from again, at least not in any meaningful or significant way. A loser.

And sorry Libs, it's not going to get better anytime soon. As Joe Trippi astutely observed: "Expect a big wave of Democratic retirements from Congress in the next couple of years, as veterans who've been holding on in hopes of regaining majority power give up. Many of these Democrats have been using their personal popularity (and powers of incumbency) to win in Republican areas. When they leave, their seats will flip. The GOPs could attain 60 votes in the Senate and maybe 30 more seats in the House."

Nice.
Win | 11.19.04 - 5:40 pm | #

Atrios, I started a diary at Daily Kos about Lauren Rainey and linked back to your post about her.

The comments there say that the Governor's office has been getting lots of calls about Lauren.

Let's keep it up and make sure we help this little girl as much as possible.

Come on guys, it's 10 minutes of your time, tops, but her life that's at stake. Show them what bloggers can do when they set their minds to it.
dissenter | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 5:40 pm | #

Nancy Richardson and Paul,

I apologize for painting you as crazy but don't get me wrong - I like Dean but my hopes are not wrapped up exclusively in the guy. I've taken a good long at the man and I feel he has hit the glass ceiling in Democratic politics. Is that eating my own by recoginizing that he does have limitations? I still support him enough to host DFA knowing full well that he is more effective at the local level.

That is different than the swipes I hear from you two. Very bitter but it gets you nowhere.
Yoshimi | 11.19.04 - 5:41 pm | #

"No one saw car after car with W stickers

In Fresno, Kern, Tulare, Madera & Merced counties there sure was a hell of alot of those stupid fucking W stickers everywhere. --Dawna"

Yeah, but so what? Those counties have voted R in every election since the End of the Flood.

What you're not noting, because it destroys your 'argument', is how many people in those counties voted D for the first time in their lives. And that's PLENTY.

Whether or not they were counted in our state's PROVEN vote fraud system.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 5:42 pm | #

Backslider,

I am not saying that Dean is the only way to go....and what I am given to understand is that he is still looking at the situation to see if it can accomplish his goals. What I have heard is that he is balancing the what he can accomplish from that job....and what he can do with DFA.

I have been assured that he will only take the job if he is satisfied he can will have a freehand...and if he can spend enough quality time at home.

They are still looking at options. And he can still pretty much get his mug on TV whenever he wants.
Nancy Richardson | 11.19.04 - 5:43 pm | #

Wow, why didn't we see this John Kerry BEFORE the election?

I bet HE would have won.
Rod Hilton | 11.19.04 - 5:44 pm | #

Win:

Doncha have a day job? Why doncha go do it?

I assume that you are an American and that you care about all Americans and that you uphold our freedoms to gather together and discuss and even disagree. If you do, why are you here? Don't you have a big victory party to celebrate and plan? Why spend your time with us "losers". They won't have you will they?
workingwoman | 11.19.04 - 5:45 pm | #

I dunno about Dean for DNC chair. Didn't he run through 50 million dollars before the primaries even started? And then didn't he fail to win even one state?

I can't figure out why anyone thinks he'd be good at running a big political organization with that track record. But I'm not a big time blogger, so maybe I'm missing something.
Marsden | 11.19.04 - 5:45 pm | #

this is from thewashingtonnote.com --
WNET SAYS NO TO KINSEY AD: COLD SHIVER OF CENSORSHIP IS HERE
A while back, I wrote about Academy Award-winning writer and director Bill Condon who has produced a brilliant film on the life and work of sex-researcher Alfred Kinsey. Here are the first and second links to my posts about this important film and director.

I saw this film as one that depicted the ongoing battle in our society between rationality and science on one hand versus dogma and a strain of empirically-hostile religious extremism on the other.

Well, a cold current of censorship has now just hit even New York's flagship PBS station, WNET Channel 13.

You may recall that a league of ABC affiliations refused to air Saving Private Ryan last week. Now, WNET will not air ads about Kinsey not because of the content of the ads -- but because of the subject matter of the movie.

Seriously WNET -- do we need to live through the same anti-intellectualism and sexually repressed hyperventilation that Alfred Kinsey fought in the 1940s?! I can't believe that this important station is forfeiting its leadership role as an educational oasis for the public. Does WNET fear Michael Powell and the FCC also?

This is the note I received from a friend:

Kinsey ads were just rejected by WNET - Channel 13 - PBS.

The spots were not the problem, the film's content was.

Tom Conway, the CFO of WNET who oversees the underwriting department and views the spots for approval made the call NOT to take the ad. Tom was not comfortable with the content of this movie and because there has been controversial press re: groups speaking out against the movie/subject matter, they feel that they can't risk viewer complaints on this."
bkny | 11.19.04 - 5:47 pm | #

Like many, I want a miracle - but we're all hooked on short-term gratification in this culture.

The new Democratic populist movement, which I choose to believe (for now) that Kerry is championing, has coalesced in, what, two years? Pretty amazing, if you ask me, considering voter apathy in recent decades.

Maybe Kerry has found a cause - us! I'll trust that he has learned a great deal from the campaign. Time will tell whether that's true, but for now I choose to support him wholeheartedly.
cosmic rays | 11.19.04 - 5:47 pm | #

I'm not mad at Kerry for losing. I thought he did a great job (better towards the end) and he may or may not have come up just short. I'm mad at those people who voted for Bush. Voting for a guy who couldn't even testify by himself? For President of the United States of America? Disgraceful.
btgcom7 | 11.19.04 - 5:47 pm | #

I understand all the arguments both pro and con and I think Dean would be the best choice.
Incognito | 11.19.04 - 5:48 pm | #

"That is different than the swipes I hear from you two. Very bitter but it gets you nowhere.
Yoshimi"

The problem, Yoshimi, is that your train reached its station TOO SOON. When you walk outside, it ain't the right town.

WE'RE STILL FIGHTING.

The election is not over for three more weeks, and fraud is turning up and being documented. So we have to ask, why have YOU stopped travelling to our goal? Not because of Howard Dean, bless him.

Because you aren't committed to count every vote, and not just every vote, but every voter.

I defend Kerry daily, because I BLAME BUSH.

So many Dems, getting the holiday feeling, and forgetting they left the kids standing in front of train station, miles from this rest stop you are all taking.

Mommy and daddy had to stand in line for 22 hours if they wanted to vote in Ohio. Bush stole the election, by a huge margin that they whittled down to a small enough margin that it matched the fake polls.

And you folk are letting him resharpen his blade on your party dresses.

This is your mind. This is your mind on appeasement.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 5:48 pm | #

"Am I the only person in the country who thinks that John Kerry and Howard Dean are BOTH good people who love their country?" who just said that, more or less....
pitbullEmily | 11.19.04 - 5:48 pm | #

I dunno about Dean for DNC chair. Didn't he run through 50 million dollars before the primaries even started? And then didn't he fail to win even one state?

and how much of that went away in Trippi's pocket?
theodoric | 11.19.04 - 5:48 pm | #

Paul, I appreciate your passion, but read a little more carefully before responding. I don't concede the election. I don't believe anything in my post indicated that I think Kerry lost. My understanding is that part of the fight that he's promising now is to count every ballot, and we now have the promise of a complete recount in Ohio. Bev Harris is in Florida. I was very angry at Kerry's quick concession, but I have to admit that he did undercut the Republicans who might want to label his pledge to "count every vote" as just sore losing.
nihil obstet | 11.19.04 - 5:49 pm | #

"I'm not mad at Kerry for losing."

Kerry won by landslide. So it's a good thing you aren't mad at Kerry for that.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 5:50 pm | #

Listen folks, strange as it seems, this is all good - the hairpulling and deep infighting, and principled fights too. Why? Cause its worth it! There is a lot at stake. Now, I gotta say that I respect Dean and admire his stands, but have doubts about his survivability in our meat grinder culture. That said, I say, what the heck, lets see? As for Kerry, he was not my first choice and he was a disappointing campaigner but shit, a man can learn and I am ok with that too. I wanna see what both of them got. AT LAST, WE HAVE THE CONTEST THAT WE SHOULDA HAD DURING THE PRIMARY!!!! Bring it on!!! Lets go all out and let the best man win!!!
But also, let both contribute to making our party stronger and tougher and more responsive to the people.
Yeah!
workingwoman | 11.19.04 - 5:51 pm | #

"It's not my site. If it was you'd be blocked."

"Accusing and whining isn't making a point.

- hadenough"

Lay off the personal attacks. I've kind of "had enough" of your hypocrisy. Please quit whining and telling me that I have no right to post here. Other than that, I respect your opinion. I disagree with it, but I respect it. I'd appreciate the same respect in return. Thanks.

As far as waiting to see what happens with Vilsack, well, I covered that above, but I'll repeat:

..."if the reports of the behind the scenes machinations to install a DLC water carrier as head of the party are true, then I take issue with Kerry's judgment. Also, if this is already going on, then we cannot just simply sit back and wait to see it play out. By then it will be too late."

We need to make our ideas known to our representatives, and I am doing that. But, I am following up with my ideas on this (and other) forums. If those ideas involve dissent or disagreement - that should be fine! That is what debate is for. I want it to be an open debate though, with as little behind the scenes maneuvering as possible.
Paddy O'Toole | 11.19.04 - 5:53 pm | #

theodoric,
Yeah, that's the "knight on a white horse" thing I was talking about. Dangerous to put all your spiritual eggs in one basket, as it were. Same thing with people who think Clinton walked on water, frankly, or for that matter, yay-hoos who said the Clash were "the only band that matters".

Nancy Richardson,
I dig. I guess I'm taking a "wait and see" stance in this regards. I do, however, like the idea that Dean won't take the gig unless he can run it his way. I've thought for a long, long time there needs to be a massive blood-letting in the DNC and put in some folks who'll actually act like they give a shit about anyone apart from the other party's base.
Backslider | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 5:54 pm | #

Paul and Nancy,
I just gotta ask if you were on the Dean conference call during the Republican convention?

Some guy asked Dean if he'd fight for every vote in Florida. Did you hear Dean's response??? It was not good.

You have a whole group of leaders to take to task if you feel that you were slighted during the election. The primary leader is George W. Bush.

I'm all for recounting the votes but you gotta know all the facts. No assumptions and no eating ones own.
Yoshimi | 11.19.04 - 5:54 pm | #

The clear and strong voice of Dean has been strangled and we're left, the losing team, with the tepid solace of Kerry and Hillary.

like it or not, you just named three people who will never, ever carry Tennessee.
theodoric | 11.19.04 - 5:54 pm | #

"It is a disgrace that eight million children lack health insurance in the richest nation on earth."

Damn straight! It's not "unfortunate." It's not "unwise." It's not "less than ideal" or "something to work on."

It's a god damn disgrace, it's an offense in the eyes of decent people everywhere!

Like that.
joe | 11.19.04 - 5:55 pm | #

Paddy O'Toole = moron

You are now blocked from posting on my blog.
hadenough | 11.19.04 - 5:56 pm | #

"My understanding is that part of the fight that he's promising now is to count every ballot,"

More McAullife BULLSHIT. Counting every ballot is great if you are ready to accept the disenfranchizement of people who had to stand in line for 22 hours to vote.

It's count ALL the franchized votes, not ignore the disenfranchizement.

" and we now have the promise of a complete recount in Ohio. Bev Harris is in Florida."

Which we had to fight for, which third parties had to be in the fight for, which the DNC hasn't supported at all, not releasing a penny, SFAIK, to support those efforts.

And, folks, if we don't ride the asses of the Ohio politicians, we won't even GET a recount. They are busily running out the clock, and, oops!, no more time for democracy.

'That's OK, I don't want to feel angry about it. We're all so TIRED. Why do you have to make so much noise?'

"I was very angry at Kerry's quick concession,"

Join the club. I figure they threatened to blow up Detroit, but that's just my pet theory.

"but I have to admit that he did undercut the Republicans who might want to label his pledge to "count every vote" as just sore losing."

If you are afraid of labels, it is because you have sold out the Constitution to your fear of winger propaganda. How pathetic.

Don't you remember SHRILL? There were many threads about how Dems need to be like bulldogs.

And now? Lap poodles with fancy bows.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 5:57 pm | #

Does anyone have a source for the "Kerry want Vilsack to be DNC Chair" allegation?
Linnet | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 5:58 pm | #

Did anyone see Clinton crying on TV last night in his interview with Peter Jennings? 26 historians rated his presidency, and on moral values, he ranked 41 out of 42. That really pissed him off.

What a crybaby.
Number One Troll | 11.19.04 - 5:58 pm | #

Health-care for children and clean, transparent, accountable elections.

Sounds like a fuckin' good agenda to me.

Let's roll!
Dr. Bonzo | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 5:59 pm | #

Watching documentaries about the election, I got the impression that the people of Iowa didn't appreciate the massive Deaniac assault on Iowa, It seemed like it pissed them off to have all these out-of-staters telling them what to

Hmmm. There was a similar reaction in Nashville when the Gore campaign moved here in 2000.

We may have had so much of Chimpy at this point that we've come under the impression that leadership is simply telling people what to do and where to go and then being pissed at them when they don't do it.
theodoric | 11.19.04 - 6:00 pm | #

Yesterday we find out that Bush wants to take away the tax break for employers supplying health insurance for their employees, so he can give another tax break on dividend and capital gains income. This is so vicious! Bush has no heart at all. John Kerry has the most wonderful idea in this petition. Everyone jump on board, and maybe we can slow down the collapse of our democracy.
Mad as Hell | 11.19.04 - 6:00 pm | #

A laughable attempt to keep himself relevant in the party after his loss.

Nope. What you just saw today was a shot across the bow.

It does not matter if the entire Democratic party resigns, my friend. Your boy Bush has screwed the pooch. He's pissed in the whiskey.

Mark it down - the 2nd Bush Boy "administration" will make Tricky Dick's 2nd term look successful. Book it.
Billy B | 11.19.04 - 6:00 pm | #

The difference between now and then is that our movement is very decentralized, I feel. We have prominent people,but we don't have a MLK.
John

Good point; we don't have an MLK (a once in a lifeteam personality: imagine, peace at all costs, what I wouldn't give to see that now), but the current situation can still be informed by the Civil Rights Movement. MLK didn't receive instant credibility; he was attacked on all sides by competing civil rights leaders, a largely complacent African American bourgeois, the federal government and many state governments, the mainstream media for a time, and a militant African American constituency which did not want to involve white Americans in the struggle for civil rights. We can certainly draw some analogies here as we watch some members of the progressive movement cannabalize others.
GN | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 6:01 pm | #

"You have a whole group of leaders to take to task if you feel that you were slighted during the election."

Slighted? Do you feel 'slighted' about what is going on? I'm not a teenage girl who missed a prom date. I'm in the streets, facing off on thugs and cops, FOR THREE YEARS, and there are MILLIONS fighting alongside. I don't feel slighted (sob!).

"The primary leader is George W. Bush."

What is that eerie pronouncement supposed to mean?

"I'm all for recounting the votes"

Hilarious.

"but you gotta know all the facts. No assumptions and no eating ones own.--Yoshimi"

I gotta know the facts? Hey, bub, I voted for MacCarthy. I've known these facts forever.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 6:02 pm | #

Counting every ballot is great if you are ready to accept the disenfranchizement of people who had to stand in line for 22 hours to vote.

Huh? What's anyone supposed to do about that--other than convince both houses of Congress to dedicate more than one day to voting?

They're doing all that can be done right now--making sure that every vote that was cast gets counted. Sure, there were votes that never got to be cast because of vote lines--but that's a deep-rooted and systemic problem that'll take a lot of time to fix.
Linnet | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 6:03 pm | #

I watch this and it makes me sad for what could have been. I miss having a president that actually says something when he speaks.
kissfan | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 6:04 pm | #

GN: excellent point about MLK. He wasn't idolized in his time. Malcolm X, for one, took a dim view of him.
Linnet | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 6:04 pm | #

hadenough - You are truly a bizarre individual. Do you do anything besides whine and attack other people here?

You are more than welcome to continue to post on my blog, but I may have to rescind that if you keep calling people names.
Paddy O'Toole | 11.19.04 - 6:06 pm | #

"Watching documentaries about the election, I got the impression that the people of Iowa didn't appreciate the massive Deaniac assault on Iowa,"

Who gives a flying fuck for what ten farmers in Iowa think? That aspect of the election scheme is so long broken it ain't funny.

I live in a city with 9 million people. The population of Iowa is 2 million. Do the math.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 6:07 pm | #

"I watch this and it makes me sad for what could have been. I miss having a president that actually says something when he speaks.
kissfan"

You are going to have plenty of time to feel sad, if you don't DO SOMETHING to help us fight back.

The election is NOT over. Auditing stolen elections is WAY important work, even if it doesn't reverse a violent, antidemocratic coup still in progress.

We have to rebuild the voting system, state by state. And it can be done. Political activists I am associated with got Diebold banned from New Mexico a while back, and the same can be done in YOUR state.

Boosting focus on the vote fraud is every democrat and every American's duty and challenge, in this season of unearned victory, and undeserved loss.

Don't be sad, be proud to continue the fight, TODAY.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 6:10 pm | #

Paul -

Time is running out on this stolen election jag. keep on truckin'

Jeb in '08.
Number One Troll | 11.19.04 - 6:13 pm | #

"They're doing all that can be done right now"

A self-deluding myth.

"--making sure that every vote that was cast gets counted. "

They aren't doing anything of the kind. They haven't released the money they collected for that purpose. One of the things Bev Harris is BEGGING for is for the DNC to release those funds. Instead, we are donating again, for the same purpose, and the DNC is smirking at us. Fooled again!

"Sure, there were votes that never got to be cast because of vote lines--but that's a deep-rooted and systemic problem that'll take a lot of time to fix."

Wait until it's YOUR ass. Then we'll see how philosophic it makes you.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 6:14 pm | #

OK. so this is a good thing and kudos to Kerry for pushing for it.

However, we need a continued militant stance to deal with these crazies and a move to the center, despite the fact that the the Clintons are pushing for this as well, is not what is needed (i.e. Vilsack is a bad idea).

A Dean selection would signal to the MSM and everyone else that we are through being reasonable. Kerry was/is brilliant but brilliance was not enough. You cannot reason with crazy people. Probably high time that we got a little crazy too.
Cochise | 11.19.04 - 6:14 pm | #

Mad As Hell -

I agree. Bush threatens to destroy this country's social fabric thread by thread, and everyone here jumps on Kerry for making a proposal to provide healthcare to children

I signed up to support something good in Washington - a rare commodity these days.
los | 11.19.04 - 6:21 pm | #

They aren't doing anything of the kind. They haven't released the money they collected for that purpose.

So which votes--and where--aren't getting counted? And do you have sources for all these things you're saying?
Linnet | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 6:21 pm | #

uh...Paul, so i'm allowed to sign the petition though, right? i mean, it sounds to me like Kerry's people are watching (maybe helping) with the business in Ohio, and maybe positioning themselves to claim some uncontestable moral ground and outrage (backed by solid proof) when the facts come out? and as the concession speech means nothing legally, if a recount flips Ohio, then Kerry is President no matter what anyone says.

(ducking...)

-L.
Librarian | 11.19.04 - 6:23 pm | #

>That is different than the swipes I hear from you two. Very bitter but it gets you nowhere.

Tell you what, Yoshimi....you stop making foolish assumptions about total strangers, as well as make characterizations about people with no basis in fact....and I will overlook your assertions about my character.

But when one is so totally out of line, and one makes an apology....one makes it without conditions.

You have no idea if I am bitter...or anything else. You don't know a damn thing about me. But I know enough about you to studious you avoid you if I ever encounter you again.
Nancy Richardson | 11.19.04 - 6:25 pm | #

Guys - go check out isebrand.com on some comments about Vilsack.
I think Dean would be too constrained to be DNC Chair but there are other options besides Vilsack.
And sign the petition. First steps are wobbly to be sure but at least it is a step in the right direction. Do it for the children and do it to help Kerry fight. If we don't support our Dems who do you think benefits the most?
Nancy | 11.19.04 - 6:26 pm | #

You have to admit - it is much better that Kerry is not sitting on his duff licking his wounds, like Gore did.
Res | 11.19.04 - 6:26 pm | #

Mommy and daddy had to stand in line for 22 hours if they wanted to vote in Ohio. Bush stole the election, by a huge margin that they whittled down to a small enough margin that it matched the fake polls.

let me tell you something, you asshat.

I didn't want George W. Fuckup to run off on his little adventure in Iraq. Sure, that's not the kind of government I would want to live under, but hell, Saddam Hussein wasn't doing anything to bother me, and as it turns out he was probably doing better at keeping order and providing government services in that part of the world than anyone else will be able to do for a good long time, if ever. If the 25 million people who live there were really unhappy about the situation, they'd had 45 years to do something about it.

I frankly don't give a shit whether they have honest elections in Ohio. That's tbe business of the people who live there. They have a fixed number of electoral votes; if they don't care any more about representative government than to let Ken Blackwell give them all to the Republicans, fuck 'em.

I don't care all that much whether Florida wants to have Jeb Bush as Oberherrleutnantsturmbannfuehrer for the rest of his life, and run the place as a Fascist dictatorship. People down there aren't stupid; if they can't figure out that they're being fucked and do something about it, there's not much I can do to help them.

What does piss me off is to have you come around lecturing the rest of us on your virtue and purity of heart, and berating us for our lack of faith in believing in a landslide none of us has any evidence of. I'm pretty goddamned tired of that; I heard you the first time, and wrote you off as a crank.

Now have a nice day.
theodoric | 11.19.04 - 6:28 pm | #

who is this 'Vilsack'?
Tess | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 6:31 pm | #

"uh...Paul, so i'm allowed to sign the petition though, right? i mean, it sounds to me like Kerry's people are watching (maybe helping) with the business in Ohio,"

Healthcare. An important issue for the people who want to be holy losers, rather than fighting for the right to vote.

Actions: write to Ohio senator Kucinich, write to DNC to release funds, write to Ohio govenor, sign petition to get 'Katherine' Blackwell to recuse himself (as chair of Bush's reelection campaign), donate to blackboxvoting.org, spread the message that FOUR STRAIGHT YEARS OF VOTE FRAUD have eliminated the issues-based Democratic programming in favor of one-party stolen elections and a Dictator.

The mole pops its head out of the hole, gets whacked, and then it pops its head out of another hole. So it goes.

You have apparently STILL not learned what you're up against, Librarian.

Appeaser think: If we give Hitler everything he wants, surely then he will stop threatening us. Please?

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 6:31 pm | #

at least he has a plan.

Monkey Boy can't even plan past dinnertime.....Cheney and Rove even wipe his ass for him, I'll bet!
========================
"Since Bush is a religious conservative, I think his choices will be guided by those ideals.

I'm mystified as to why these people choose to tout the 'morals' of the 1950s and reject the
advances of the 1960s.

1950s society in the U.S. was a very sick one indeed. McCarthyism was at its peak, and sexism was rampant.

In the 60's, these problems began to be remedied.

'Leave it To Beaver' was a fictional show, not a documentary."

-- Heard on the BBC recently
Terry C | 11.19.04 - 6:34 pm | #

>who is this 'Vilsack'?

Vilsak is the governor of Iowa who delivered the caucus to Kerry.
Unfortunately, he could not do the same for Iowa proper.

And he wants to be DNC chair to save the caucus system in Iowa. Once again living an old DLC tradition of rewarding failure.
Nancy Richardson | 11.19.04 - 6:39 pm | #

Paddy O'Toole,

"Do you do anything besides whine and attack other people here?"

No.
hadenough | 11.19.04 - 6:39 pm | #

I'm supporting the Senator...also, sad to see some of you are still watching (and quoting, God forbid) cable (shudder) news.
I won't ask you to turn it off completely (though it is refreshing to stop the noise)...maybe, just restrict viewing to the occasional top of the hour headline grab.
While surfing for a movie I soiled my eyes with a few seconds of a Woody Juderuff "reporter" roundtable consisting of the usual sour-faced frigid "ladies" and an emasculated entity presented as a male. The news chew? Why Clinton's penis, of course...not that anyone on the panel, except the "male", has ever seen another man's penis. Nearly broke my finger switching off the channel...later, I swabbed the screen with disinfectant.
sean | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 6:44 pm | #

Well, fact is I love John Kerry, for what he did 35 years ago. He came back, sfter doing his duty and said that we were not drugaddled lame-brains, but that we were right about the war. God bless him for that!

God Bless him for running for President, knowing that he would have to take on the biggest mees any in-coming Presiden has facfed since,maybe, FDR..

But, no thanks on anymore petitions. I thonk I am done with that, and politics as usual.

Screw it. We gonna bring this freakin' Empire down, because neither George Bush, John Kerry or Bill Clinton,for that matter, represent anything we believe today.

You might say, we are madder than Hell and we ain't gonna take it anymore!

The Media darlings are a bunch of outright whores, worse than most, because we actully expected more of them than we did the rest of the corporate culture, though, I cannot for the life of me tell you why. But I can tell you this. They are about to get there royal comeupance.

Fuck all of them; Wolf Blitzkrieg is our whore of the day. These bastrads will pay for the blood on their hands,as sure as the Bushites will. There is nothing worse for people like Wolfie than to become irrelevent.

They are about to become irrelevent at the very least.
Trammell Winterfire | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 6:46 pm | #

I do not want Kerry to disappear. I want him in jail for treason. He should be in handcuffs.

Book em Dano!
DaveS | 11.19.04 - 6:46 pm | #

fuck "roll up your sleeves and go windsurfing", read Lakoff.
kei & yuri | 11.19.04 - 6:51 pm | #

DaveS,

how does it feel to want.
hadenough | 11.19.04 - 6:53 pm | #

paul--

can you link the petitions you mentioned? i've signed some via working assets, and someplace else (moveon?) against Blackwell, and in support of making E-Day a holiday so working people can at least have a chance. and i think i signed something through via a link at truthout.org.

as for what i am up against--i assume you mean in terms of the establishment? (and not yourself?)

in the case of the former, how can i know? i know what i saw in Pittsburgh on my campus, and what my friends who monitered saw around the city, and wht little was reported in the local paper of problems (and it sucked--if you got my reply to you downthread you know--though clearly not as bad as it did in Cleveland, etc., and since we carried PA anyhow, people are rightly spending their energy elsewhere.)

but this shit's been going on forever, and it's a crime, and as my best friend put it--"i may be a pacifist and against the death penalty, but i would make an exception in the case of this suppresion shit. those people should be shot."

so yes we are plenty pissed off, but where to focus the energy? if they're going to march in Cleveland or Columbus, i could get there in a couple hours, and would gladly go & bring some bodies with me, but we need to know about it a couple days ahead if possible. no one here has put out the word about anything local going on.

i'm happy to send letters (real ones--i don't think email gets much attention.) but is that going to stop Blackwell from running out the clock?

as for this wad of cash that is supposedly being with-held by Kerry's people--where is that question coming from? the only place i've heard about it is online with no citation, and from Donna "5th column" Brazille on CNN...legally, they have to show how the money is spent, and it is my understanding that they are still paying the legal team, which two Ohio papers tell me are still over there, and i've heard are also in other states as well.

but whom am i appeasing? and how?

as for who i THINK we're up against...it would probably sound all x-files if i tried to describe it. not to mention so hopeless that no one would bother--so that seems like not the best approach, to me.

poking my mole-head up again,
-L.
Librarian | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 6:55 pm | #

"I frankly don't give a shit whether they have honest elections in Ohio. That's tbe business of the people who live there." --theodoric

Confessions, and fools, still not the point. And didn't anyone ever tell you about WHAT LIARS people who say 'frankly' are?

As for 'the business of the people,' glad to hear you still support slavery.

Sign up! There are several trolls here looking for a decent looking white guy to bring them their drinks.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 6:56 pm | #

The problem here is that Kerry IS the vacuum!!!!!!!!!!!

GET it?

SWAT teams of lawyers . . . that did NOTHING.

The problem here is a party that doesn't want to win, doesn't want to win back the country, and refuses to fight for what it's supporters fought for, worked for, and believe in.

If they're so determined to fight, where's the media campaign? Where are the resignations?

And -- oh yeah, where's John Kerry?

Some leader. Some fighter. Some loyal guy .. loyal to Yale, perhaps. But to the country? No.
RichF | 11.19.04 - 6:57 pm | #

I thonk I am done with that, and politics as usual.

This is not politics as usual.

But the DeLay abomination has definitely gotten the attention of people on both sides of the aisle.

heh heh.

This is a great idea and Kerry is demonstrating his willingness to work for a better America. You can criticize him if you want (your right), but that's certainly not going to get you anywhere.

24 dead on NewsHour. RIP, guys.

Fuck Bush.
pie | 11.19.04 - 6:58 pm | #

(your right)

It's your right, just to clarify, since people seem to have a problem with spelling.
pie | 11.19.04 - 7:00 pm | #

As an infrequent poster, I just want to voice my support for this petition. I think it's a great idea.

It's an effective way to start reframing what moral values are really all about. Who can argue with 8 million uninsured children needing healthcare?

I think after people continue to recover from the shock and disappointment of the election, this idea will resonate.

Also, it looks like he learned that he needs to build his Senate record with some meaningful legislation.
David in Redondo Beach | 11.19.04 - 7:03 pm | #

unless THEY are the mole, and not me?

confused.

also, i think "eating one's own" has jumped the shark (although the in-fighting still pains me--we can be constructive with each other, can't we? we can debate without it always being my way or no way, right? right?! it would be nice if every attack at least also promoted some alternative--that's one thing i like about Paul, he may shout at me, but at least he usually has something positive/constructive to offer, too.)

-L.
Librarian | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 7:03 pm | #

Roddy McSorley said "Not only that, but this is a way for him to demonstrate to a certain kind of voter that he's not just someone who wants to be president."

HEY -- you're describing DEAN here, NOT Kerry!!!

It's Kerry that's gone back to business as usual: & saying nada, frinstance, as Bush had & has asserted that it's "the President's decision to go to war." NOT SO. It's a betrayal of EVERY American principle to say so, or to act accordingly. Yet the "loyal opposition" is something only Democrats are required to abide by --
Anyone else get the feeling that Kerry's silence -- & the Dems' -- about the President's unilateral ability to take the country to war is precisely the treasonous act that sold this country down the river and into Imperium?
RichF | 11.19.04 - 7:04 pm | #

RichF, Jesus Christ, just because you think Dean is the Messiah (I voted for him in the primaries), doesn't mean that everyone else does.

He was blown away. Go yell at the people in Iowa.

Enough. He's going to have to work his way into America's consciousness.
pie | 11.19.04 - 7:09 pm | #

"Go yell at the people in Iowa."

As a Californian, I'm tired of NH and Iowa determining who our nominee is. By the time the primary reached here, it had already been decided -- Kerry was a forgone conclusion.

Time to change this system.
David in Redondo Beach | 11.19.04 - 7:17 pm | #

Time to change this system.

The tip of the iceberg.

Still, David, Dean couldn't win anywhere else, could he? He had his strong supporters, but couldn't get enough of the other ones. As I said, I live in Michigan and actually thought he had a chance here.

People need to face facts.
pie | 11.19.04 - 7:20 pm | #

We needed our guy, Kerry, to stand up and say how illegal and wrong the Iraq invasion/occupation really is and Kerry couldn't/wouldn't do that!

He is not worthy of our support now or in the future. 'Anybody but Bush' got us this guy but we don't have to be stuck with him and his fucked up politics. The guy is simply an inept politician. He lost to GWB, let that sink in again and again. With all the ammo Bush handed him, Kerry still mounted a stupid, cowardly campaign and lost. Bush didn't beat him, Kerry lost the camapign. Instead of crafting some semblance of a coherent message, he spent the summer rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

No more of these neo-libs, let's get our Party back to the 'values' that truly matter. Respect for human rights, here and abroad, a fair tax system that everyone can understand. More transparency and accountability from our elected officials (jeez, the rethugs just handed our leaders the gift of the De Lay vote, are they listening?), protection of womens abortion rights, etc. and on and on.

Bush didn't win by being a centrist and the Dems won't either. Party leaders should stop trying to steal Karl Rove's playbook or Clinton's and start looking to the future. The future of this country is not in the back to 50's mindset that Rethugs are trying to point this country, the future is not about hate.
meade | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 7:27 pm | #

By the time the primary reached California, Dean was already toast. I don't recall the numbers, but I think Edwards got more votes then he did.

So unfortunately, even those people who might have voted for Dean a month or two earlier, changed their minds because he was no longer "viable."

That's why we in CA want to see the primary system change. At least throw in a NY or CA when NH and IA vote, to give some balance. They could even throw in TX.
David in Redondo Beach | 11.19.04 - 7:28 pm | #

Do you realize how lucky we are? We have (I absolutely refuse to give up until the very LASY vote is counted....fairly) two great candicates with two terrific wives...it doesn't get better than that! Stop complaining and start campaigning for the things WE believe in... we CARE! ...bottom line.You are doing exactly what they want you to do by dissing John Kerry...it's not a frat party...where are the adults!
suz3360@aol.com | 11.19.04 - 7:28 pm | #

meade, it won't work. It hasn't for years.

Read a history book.
pie | 11.19.04 - 7:29 pm | #

suz3360@aol.com, thank you. We can never be sure what motives people have who post here.

heh.
pie | 11.19.04 - 7:30 pm | #

15 million left over when he did nothing in August for himself or anyone else. He doesn't have to embrace Dean, but until Kerry excoriates Shrum it's one of those "hold your nose and sign" deals.

Until the Democrats show me that they are serious about actually finding a working strategy and getting the hacks responsible for the Congressional elections in 94, 96, 00, 02, 04 and the presidential elections in 00 and 04, I will continue to be very pissed off.
Mimiru | 11.19.04 - 7:43 pm | #

People outside Iowa and NH aren't forced to vote the way the Iowans do. Just because someone wins an Iowa primary doesn't guarantee them anything--unless you think voters are mindless sheep who vote based on peer pressure, in which case you should be campaigning for a monarchy.
Linnet | 11.19.04 - 7:44 pm | #

>where are the adults?

pie,

When did this blog become the new home of the Kerry blog? And why are people here acting that critical thinking skills are to be abandoned in the name of party unity?

Isn't party unity something that occurs after one has dissected a campaign which was outgunned and out maneuvered at every juncture, and that the only way we can fix it is to figure out what areas under our control can be fixed.....and take an unblinking look at what went wrong? And demand accountability when serious questions are raised?

I sure hope so, because if we can't learn from our mistakes, and continue to reward failure, we are in serious trouble.

I now leave you all to enjoy you faith based exercise in in Kerry worship.

I, for one remember knew the last rationale for nominating him was he was "electable"...I kept my doubts to myself, defended him and the campaign when others were saying it was going south. Now...I am in a mode which has to do with problem solving...

and clearly this is not the place to have any frank and serious discussions without people ordering people to play nice.
Nancy Richardson | 11.19.04 - 7:48 pm | #

>People outside Iowa and NH aren't forced to vote the way the Iowans do. Just because someone wins an Iowa primary doesn't guarantee them anything--unless you think voters are mindless sheep who vote based on peer pressure, in which case you should be campaigning for a monarchy

You might want to look into what happened with regard to the strategy behind the front loaded primaries.

Oh, never mind.
Nancy Richardson | 11.19.04 - 7:50 pm | #

I signed it and will be sending it to all of my friends (all one of them!) I LOVE THIS MAN! He isn't giving up. He's calling baby Bush out to fight him like a man: mano e mano. Nothing can save Bush from this ass kicking. I LOVE BEING A DEMOCRAT!
Monica A | 11.19.04 - 7:50 pm | #

Nancy Richardson,

"where are the adults?" was not my comment.

And he was electable.

Kerry worship? WTF is wrong with what he's doing?

Not understanding what your gripe is or your solution.

At all.
pie | 11.19.04 - 7:54 pm | #

"Let's roll up our sleeves and get back to work for our country."

Yup, that's how I felt, too. Time to get back on the streets.
vachon | 11.19.04 - 8:06 pm | #

pie

What do you mean it hasn't worked? No one has tried it. All we've got the last 20yrs is Dems trying to hew as close as possible to Rethug positions, even Clinton.

When we do get a candidate who tries he's stabbed in the back by Party insiders who are as convinced as you obviously are it's a losing position.

Clinton won because he was Clinton not because of anything else. It's the message and the messenger, why can't we find someone who delivers both?
meade | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 8:10 pm | #

Sorry JFK. I'm supporting access to health care for all. Kids can't thrive if their parents get sick and die.

Health care for kids is easy. Clinton put it into place when he was in office. If Kerry and the rest of the Dem leadership had been doing their jobs, we wouldn't have lost so much of the child health coverage that Clinton put in place.
Demgirl | 11.19.04 - 8:12 pm | #

They aren't doing anything of the kind. They haven't released the money they collected for that purpose.

Last I heard there were around 10 active lawsuits in Ohio that the Kerry campaign was participating in related to voting rights. How were/are those paid for?

Or are you just complaining that they aren't releasing the funds to other organizations?
cmdicely | 11.19.04 - 8:13 pm | #

Way to go Kerry! We need to keep up the activism.
Robert Geilfuss | 11.19.04 - 8:21 pm | #

Nancy Richardson wants a god to worship. Kerry was never my first choice for president. But we're in a war and he's one terrific General. There are others: Dean, Edwards, etc. None are perfect but all are good. Let's get behind what's good and forget about the cult of the personality. Wait until the next election to look for your demigod.
gorsh | 11.19.04 - 8:22 pm | #

Well, I'll tell ya....Kerry was not my choice for a candidate, even tho I voted for him this month, of course (ABB, Y'all). If Kerry is pushing to see that Dean DOESN'T get nominated for DNC chair, Um, why should I give a crap what he wants?

And what makes anyone think this lame petition is going to do any good against Bush and his clone cabinet? Bush will do what he wants. Nothing we can say will mean shit. We have less Dem senators and congressman than we had before. WE ARE FUCKED for the next four years, gang.

It doesn't matter what any of the Dems want. What Dumbya wants, Dumbya will get.
Moi ;) | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 8:24 pm | #

CAn someone tell me if this is a copy of an email sent to Kerry supporters?
Scout | 11.19.04 - 8:28 pm | #

I'm wi. Pie and Librarian. What Kerry is doing is productive and good strategy. Doesn't mean we don't need Dean too, we do. But let's support this. It's smart.
other lisa | 11.19.04 - 8:29 pm | #

If Kerry is pushing to see that Dean DOESN'T get nominated for DNC chair...

Can someone provide a link for this?

It was asked earlier, but no one provided one.
pie | 11.19.04 - 8:32 pm | #

Hooray for Kerry. Now we need some raging, articulate liberals to start showing up on the news channels.
Out and About | 11.19.04 - 8:33 pm | #

We can demand Kerry recommend Dean, and here's why:
In Kerry's first important decision as the dem candidate -- i.e., the choice of a running mate -- IMHO Kerry really listened to the majority who wanted him to pick Edwards.

Apparantly he didn't even like the guy (or at least that was the "swipe" that better-lay-off-the-Candy-Crowley took at the time). But all the opinion polls showed that folks who cared were far-and-away screaming for Edwards. Kerry listened; Kerry picked Edwards.

So, Mr. Kerry, here's what we want now: WE WANT DEAN !!!!!
. . . I'm a true Patriot, so
GiveMeLibriumOrGiveMeMeth | 11.19.04 - 8:56 pm | #

Again: what's the source for the whole "Kerry opposes Dean for DNC Chair" allegation?
Linnet | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 9:03 pm | #

I would just like to ask Sen. Kerry, "If Dean's lines, style, and political approach are worthy of copying, why isn't Dean worthy of DNC Chair?" (I envision a Kerry staffer asigned to follow Dean and report back Dean's best applause lines, Dean's take on an issue...)
mtnwoman | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 9:06 pm | #

Sorry, Mr. Kerry, but I'm conceding support for your new campaign as quickly as you gave up on Ohio and Florida. I only wish I would have written in Howard Dean's name. He would have fought for my vote.
Zaine Ridling

Sorry, Zaine Ridling, and other ineffectual drones. You're boring as hell. People are fighting for your vote, they're just not whining and crying about it so as to become fodder for the media.
gorsh | 11.19.04 - 9:12 pm | #

Look people: Dean is 100 times more effective working on the outside with his own reformist organization, not running the DNC in DC. Why would you want to kill off Dean when, with his own reformist grass roots organization, progressives at the local level can take over many of the state & local party organizations & become the major power broker in the Democratic Party.
Just-the-facts-Jack | 11.19.04 - 9:18 pm | #

I certainly can't argue against health care for children but is it a band-aid so we don't have to totally fix health care or is it a stepping stone toward more insurance for all?

This is important.
rutbag | 11.19.04 - 9:18 pm | #

I know it's not up to us, we (voters) don't count until the next fund- raiser/election. But if it was up to me, i want someone at DNC who gives voice to my rage at Bushco and the other rethugs who are blindly following him and leading U.S. off a cliff.

I don't want more accomodations for a 'popular' president who thinks 52% is a mandate.

No more Party appeasers, who got together on the Iraq war vote and decided that as a party we could not afford to be on the 'wrong' side of this illegal war.

Where are the fighters for peace? There's enough war-mongers on the other side, we don't need to parrot their idiocy.
meade | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 9:21 pm | #

Time to get some ass-kicking Dems and dump the ass-kissing ones.

Start with Lieberman
meade | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 9:31 pm | #

The Kerry campaign is engaged in heavy combat over counting the votes in Florida & Ohio. Its not verbal, nasty stuff - sorry folks, no physical mayhem nor raunchy televised sex -so its doesn't make cable TV's idea of news. It entails a bunch of Kerry lawyers in each contested county filing briefs & court challenges, technical experts examining voting systems, culling discounted voters for irregularities etc. So, this isn't like a Madonna concert.

How about that $45 million? If there are 12 Ohio counties being investigated by Kerry people (an approximate # I've heard), that's $12 million right there. Ditto for the 10+ counties in Florida; knock off another $12+ million there. Throw in some states such as N. Carolina, Missouri, Nevada, Arizona, where irregularities have been reported, where there's Kerry people investigating or challenging particular voting districts & you've accounted for a large chunk of the $45 million. Sorry all you doubting Thomases, shift over to something else to whine about.
Just-the-facts-Jack | 11.19.04 - 9:37 pm | #

Just want to pop in to repeat a suggestion I made earlier this week.

Those who are disappointed in not seeing their values represented sufficiently in current figures of leadership in the Democratic Party frequently express their intention to move to a third party for that reason.

This is a FALSE dichotomy. It's not a question of staying in the party and stifling your own dearly-held values versus striking out in a suicidal third party move. No, no, no.

Most folks here despise what the DLC stands for. I do, too. But we can take a page from their playbook. I can remember that there was a time when there was NO SUCH THING as the DLC. Then there came a time when they had wrested control of party politics.

I believe the best thing we can do is to study HOW the DLC came into being, how they managed to jockey for position, and how they managed to gain control.

Then we need to imitate their successful (if misguided) ascent to power within the DNC. Only this time, in the dedication to progressive objectives.

Someone told me that there's a book by Kenneth Baer called "Reinventing Democrats" IIRC, about the rise of the DLC. I want to get my mitts on it and study their tactics.

We can form our own inter-party organization. Perhaps Dean's already up-and-running democratic activist organization is just the vehicle to use. I don't know, I need to check it out more. But quit with the false dichotomies already. We are a force to be reckoned with, and we'll be much more successful if we use the infrastructure that's already in place. A revolution from within. If the (long-term stupid) DLC could do it, why can't smart progressives?
Kate | 11.19.04 - 9:47 pm | #

Does anyone else have "outrage fatigue?" I can't stay angry for an additional four years. My central nervous system just won't do it. I may have to sit back and just wait for Armageddon.
maye | 11.19.04 - 9:59 pm | #

CAn someone tell me if this is a copy of an email sent to Kerry supporters?
Scout

It is .....
professor | 11.19.04 - 10:21 pm | #

Kate - I think you've got exactly the right idea.

And thanks for the tip on the Kenneth Baer book - the description of the book is extremely revealing in how high of a regard the DLC holds itself:

When Bill Clinton declared in 1996 that "the era of big government is over," Republicans felt that he was stealing their thunder. But in fact, it was the culmination of a decade-long struggle for the heart and soul of the Democratic Party. This book tells how a group of New Democrats reformed their enfeebled party's agenda, moved it toward the center, and recaptured the White House with their first two-term president since FDR.

Reinventing Democrats is the story of the Democratic Leadership Council, an elite group of elected officials, benefactors, and strategists that set out to change the public philosophy of their party. Kenneth Baer tells who they are, where they came from, what they believe in, and how they helped elect Bill Clinton--the DLC's former chairman--to the presidency.

[snip]

If Clinton has achieved nothing else in his presidency, says Baer, he has moved his party to the center, where it stands a better chance to succeed--much to the dismay of conservatives, who feel victimized by the theft of many of their strongest issues.

"...to the dismay of conservatives"?!?

How about to the dismay of liberals!

The DLC takes credit for Clinton's success. But they would be nowhere without the rock star himself, Bill Clinton. Conversely, the talented Clinton would have been fine without moving to the center. He won the elections, not the DLC or their "third way" centrist nonsense.
Paddy O'Toole | 11.19.04 - 10:50 pm | #

Kate - I think you've got exactly the right idea.

And thanks for the tip on the Kenneth Baer book - the description of the book is extremely revealing in how high of a regard the DLC holds itself:

When Bill Clinton declared in 1996 that "the era of big government is over," Republicans felt that he was stealing their thunder. But in fact, it was the culmination of a decade-long struggle for the heart and soul of the Democratic Party. This book tells how a group of New Democrats reformed their enfeebled party's agenda, moved it toward the center, and recaptured the White House with their first two-term president since FDR.

Reinventing Democrats is the story of the Democratic Leadership Council, an elite group of elected officials, benefactors, and strategists that set out to change the public philosophy of their party. Kenneth Baer tells who they are, where they came from, what they believe in, and how they helped elect Bill Clinton--the DLC's former chairman--to the presidency.

[snip]

If Clinton has achieved nothing else in his presidency, says Baer, he has moved his party to the center, where it stands a better chance to succeed--much to the dismay of conservatives, who feel victimized by the theft of many of their strongest issues.

Note to self: Close tags idiot!
Paddy O'Toole | 11.19.04 - 10:52 pm | #

holy moly! -geat video.

"Time to get some ass-kicking Dems and dump the ass-kissing ones."

ditto.

And if Kerry becomes more of an ass-kicker, that's fine by me.
Swan | 11.19.04 - 10:54 pm | #

Go get 'em John F. Kerry!

I signed the petition, and hope that more folks will also. I even sent off to my dad, a 79 year old WWII vet, he told me he also signed it.

It's time we all started making some noise. Even if you feel that this is just a small step, go ahead... click the link and sign it... it makes good moral sense to do so, regardless of politics.

I think I'm already missing JFK in the White House.
JohnLalo | 11.19.04 - 11:05 pm | #

(back from protest)

"By the time the primary reached California, Dean was already toast. I don't recall the numbers, but I think Edwards got more votes then he did.

No, David in Redondo Beach, you can't draw conclusions from the California primary, because we in California know FOR SURE that we do not have a legal election system (after the fraud Recall).

Dean's votes in Iowa were VERY easy to steal. There were rumors of Kerry's people push-polling as well. No one can offer a decent reason why Dean's votes disappeared overnight, and even the 750 showing of the fake Dean scream couldn't produce that effect.

I want to make one thing clear: in this thread, I haven't been talking about Dean at all. I support Howard Dean, have since he came out and supported me (those of us who have our butts on the line in the streets).

And I support Kerry, though his appeasements are ugly and counterproductive as hell. I understand that governments have an irresistible urge to appease dictatorial opponents -- it's not Kerry or the Dems who uniquely bear that burden. In the UK of the 30s, it was the conservative party trying everything to appease an unappeasable foe. So, party, orientation of party, leaders -- all moot.

I support Kerry because he won by landslide and is by rights the next president. As such he is also the head of the party.

I just wish he supported me (us) instead of giving his faith to appeasements that have already been proven failures through four of the longest years I've suffered as an American, since the 60s.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 11:06 pm | #

Note to maye...

Don't get discouraged or find yourself in overload. It's what they want you to feel.

There are at least 50 million people like you, and another 50 million (those who aren't registered to vote, but are over 1 who agree with every single one of the Democratic party's platform planks.

We will win, and they know it. This is the last gasp for them and they'll try and milk it for all it's worth.

But, we are right in our ideals, and they are morally bankrupt and are on the wrong side of the demographic curve.
JohnLalo | 11.19.04 - 11:10 pm | #

I have no idea why the "8" in my last message turned into a sunshine with sunglasses.
JohnLalo | 11.19.04 - 11:11 pm | #

paul--how'd it go?

-L.
Librarian | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 11:13 pm | #

"The Kerry campaign is engaged in heavy combat over counting the votes in Florida & Ohio. Its not verbal, nasty stuff - sorry folks, no physical mayhem nor raunchy televised sex -so its doesn't make cable TV's idea of news." --Just the Facts

This story is going around, but the idea that since it isn't tabloid, we wouldn't hear about it is absurd. Instead of pushing a health care bill in the lame duck period when NO ONE in Congress will pay attention, knowing full well that any resulting bill will be DISMANTLED by the R majority just for spite, instead of focusing on getting a legal vote -- well, it makes me want to spit.

The claim that lawyers are 'on it,' will be followed up by the clock running out, and a lot of shrugged expensive suits. Count on it. Not wanting to fight, they will not.

When the DNC (McAullife) announced that it would fight for all the cast votes, it AGREED TO DISENFRANCHIZEMENT OF MILLIONS OF VOTERS.

Nothing, not even court cases, justifies that kind of abandonment of the VERY people who we activists fought hard to inspire and get to vote.

Now they all can see what a fakery it is to vote Democratic, and that's too bad. IF the party will not stand up for its voters, especially its minority voters and those who are disaffiliated by DNC tactics, then it is shooting us in the foot, and I do NOT appreciate it.

It's counterproductive. That isn't some manic protester talking, that IS the facts.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 11:15 pm | #

"paul--how'd it go?

-L.
Librarian"

"Twelve hundred and twenty families will mark their Thanksgiving by CRYING."

-=-
Paul | 11.19.04 - 11:18 pm | #

"I have no idea why the "8" in my last message turned into a sunshine with sunglasses.
JohnLalo"

8 ) 8 )

(click the blue ?)

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 11:19 pm | #

"Does anyone else have "outrage fatigue?" I can't stay angry for an additional four years."

The ONLY way to keep at protest or 'outrage' is to EXERCISE.

At least a daily 1-2 mile walk.

You have to walk off those feelings, or indeed, you won't be able to keep up.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 11:21 pm | #

"Isn't party unity something that occurs after one has dissected a campaign which was outgunned and out maneuvered at every juncture," -- Nancy

Wow, did you see the same campaign I just saw?

Kerry KILLED Bush in the first debate, and ate his lunch in the other two as well. He held some of the largest campaign rallies in history, and he WON by landslide.

I'm not calling for a post-mortem, I'm calling for continuing to fight for our democratic system, which means VOTING RIGHTS, VOTING RIGHTS, VOTING RIGHTS.

That the party leadership prefers appeasement is a different issue than the campaign, which was a resounding success.

Unfortunately, we were all Diebolded into a Dictatorship. That ain't Kerry's fault, but his actions since have fed the worst stereotypes of Democratic party betrayal OF ITS MOST ACTIVE PARTICIPANTS.

I have been telling protesters for MONTHS to 'prepare for the betrayal,' so it doesn't knock them out of their shoes. It stings, but it ain't nothing new, and we did try to prepare ourselves.

As lifelong members of the party, we DEMAND representation, and we demand vote rights and that means PEOPLE, not just cast ballots. Twenty-two hour waits (such as in Ohio) are disenfranchizement, and NO ONE who considers themselves an American should stand for it, party or no party.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 11:28 pm | #

"Look people: Dean is 100 times more effective working on the outside with his own reformist organization, not running the DNC in DC." --Just

Good point, my feelings exactly on that topic. We need Dean to spearhead the effort to drive Diebold from each of our states, to eliminate the SecStates and county registrars who took the swimming pool, the trip to Tahiti, and the extra zeroes in their bank accounts in order to SCREW us.

Without an aggressive effort to fight vote fraud, there isn't even a reason to vote in four years.

Four strikes (2000, 2002, 2003, 2004) and the voting system is OUT.

--
Paul | 11.19.04 - 11:33 pm | #

paul--are you in CA or OH? i'm confused (as usual.) was the protest for voting rights or against the war? i haven't seen anything anywhere about people just protesting for voting rights--i'd love to see that, though!

can you tell me what group i should be hooking up with to do something about the people who were prevented from voting at all (by scams, not enough machines in the precinct because they took some away, etc.)

i think we are seriously lacking some co-ordination here. i follow links to stories, but since nothing is happening much in my city now in that regard, it's hard to know what to do.

as i said before, i can get to Ohio pretty easily, and if i knew something was going to be going on there, i'd be glad to go & bring some people with me.

i absolutely agree that the difference between how easy it is to "vote" in some middle class white suburb, and how impossible it is for a lot of people in less affluent neighborhoods in the cities, is a crime. and everything else (no money for schools, and on and on,) stems from that lack of representation. i honestly never knew before how different it could be...and what a huge difference it makes.

it's not a Democracy if some people are prevented from voting at all.

i just don't know what to do on that one--if you have links or organizations or something for that, i will gladly spread them around.

obviously i'm not going to hear about anything on the "news." i know they've held some citizen hearings in Ohio (CommonCause & other sources.)

where do i send the money? (besides blackboxvoting & cobb, which i have already done.)

-L.
Librarian | Homepage | 11.19.04 - 11:49 pm | #

"paul--are you in CA or OH?"

I am in Los Angeles.

"was the protest for voting rights or against the war?"

We protest both. Currently, our 6 foot by 3 foot banners say "VOTE FRAUD." On the other side they say, I BLAME BUSH.

"i haven't seen anything anywhere about people just protesting for voting rights--i'd love to see that, though!"

You are your own army. Invade your town!

"can you tell me what group i should be hooking up with to do something about the people who were prevented from voting at all (by scams, not enough machines in the precinct because they took some away, etc.)"

I would recommend blackboxvoting.org, which seems to be getting results.

Since you are near Ohio, on that site go to the Ohio pages, and network with the other activists in your area.

This effort, is something we shall have to do, all of us, sooner or later. It's like taking out the trash. At some point, even the hardiest 'ignorers' can't take the stink.

--
Paul | 11.20.04 - 12:01 am | #

thanks paul.

i've been checking blackbox, but the stuff under Ohio hadn't seemed like it was getting updated.

there's some small Ohio paper online where a lot of stories have appeared though--i can't recall the name just now, Free something? anyway, truthout reprints their stuff.

i can give money, pass things along, i can print fliers & posters and leave them places, but that's about the end of my "organizing" skills.

we have a couple umbrella groups here in PGH, but they've been pretty caught up with their own local battles (saving the bus system, for one.) they tend to focus on the war, and on CMU when they do anything like rallies beyond the local issues. we've also got some labor people who need support for possible strikes.

i'll have to think about what i can do about that. i really have no frame of reference--i'm one of the people who just shows up, not someone who gets things started. and like most people, i work too much.

i want to see some action that is totally laser focused on the voting access issue, so any news coverage can't ignore what's being said--would be good if we could do something in coordination with Columbus or Cleveland, though--people here could relate, and we did have some trouble of our own on the 2nd, so that makes it easier for them to understand that it really is happening all over.

one problem here is that the people who were most affected by it (besides my students, who've already had their shout & burned their flag, etc., and are now kind of onto the next thing--kids, you know,) seem to be resigned to a sort of "well that's how we always get treated" attitude. i have no place telling them to get in the street and get in trouble, although i'd gladly stand there with them if they did.

for what it's worth--i think we need your kind of energy around here, even if you do SHOUT at me a lot.

-L.
Librarian | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 12:21 am | #

I can't support this. Sorry. He's not going to gain any traction with it. Uninsured children just isn't an issue that a lot of people are worried about. I mean, come on. Is there a legion of children who are being forced to choose between food and their heart pills?

People are worried about whether their kid will get sick and they'll have to take a day off work to take care of him. They're worried about their own medical problems. Kids are the healthiest population there is, and the cheapest to insure, and if they aren't insured it's likely that their parents aren't either. We need to worry about their parents first. A wimpy half measure isn't going to get us there--it's just going to shrink the constituency for more substantial reform.
superdude | 11.20.04 - 12:37 am | #

Ah Superdude - you stepped into the exact tension between facts and reality and what is needed versus what is feasible. All that you say is absolutely true, but remember several important things:
We are not the majority party - we can introduce but it aint going nowhere unless it has a republican sponsor as well. What is more likely to get that - a children's bill or something that would as you say, do more by covering adults? Of course, republicans want the least so its children that they are most likely to support.
Also, just as you say, children would be CHEAPER to cover cause just as you say, they are healthier...rember that big bad DEFICIT? We dont have money right now for a big program and definitely not when we don't have the power of the executive or the leadership of the Congress to shift money around.

Given the political realities and the need for us to have a symbolic initiative...this works for me. Add to to it (and more importantly in my opinion) is Kerry's desire to promote improved voting standards. All good.
workingwoman | 11.20.04 - 1:31 am | #

Why do people put so much faith in Howard Dean for DNC chair? Just asking. I don't see anything in him to guarantee he'd make a good DNC chair, which basically involves a heck of a lot of fund-raising. On that count, Ron Brown was the last good one. Of course, people say grass roots! But that will never get the kind of dough you need to run the entire DNC. And the credit for Dean's grassroots fund-raising style probably goes to Joe Trippi. Though, really, Joe burned through Howard's money so fast. That examply probably has a lot to do with why Kerry held back on some of that money. It's amazing what Joe did to throw away all that cash that people sent to Howard's campaign, including mine.
Mary | 11.20.04 - 2:10 am | #

workingwoman:

Even if this bill passed, it would be counterproductive. We wouldn't be able to use the issue of uninsured children to advance the agenda of health care for all. We'd be left fighting for... uninsured adults? Who cares about them? They aren't cute anymore!

It isn't worth the compromise. Kids aren't that badly in need of universal coverage. They tend to get acute illnesses, like a broken arm or the chicken pox, that can be handled with a quick (and expensive, but manageable) trip to the ER. Their parents are the ones with the chronic illnesses that are driving up health care costs. They're the ones who need help. This half measure is mostly useless and is actually counterproductive to the goal of covering everybody. Screw it.
superdude | 11.20.04 - 3:07 am | #

Okay, look, there was voter fraud. I believe that. I don't know if it affected the ultimate outcome of the election or not. I've seen analyses that look pretty good that come to opposite conclusions. So I'm waiting before I come down on one side or another.

But I'm sorry, voter fraud caused Dean to lose in Iowa??? Huh???

I like Dean but he made mistakes in his campaign that helped lead to his defeat. I have a good friend who worked at his HQ who packed up her life and moved across the country to work for him, and this is what she tells me. Believe me, she wanted nothing more than for him to do well and win.

We are the reality based community, right? So if there's some evidence that voter fraud led to Dean's defeat, okay, fine, let's see it. Otherwise, let's stick to the matter at hand, shall we?
Other Lisa | 11.20.04 - 3:14 am | #

What? Children don't get serious illnesses? Tell it to the kids in your nearest Children's Hospital. Kids get cancer, they get autoimmune diseases, they get juvenile diabetes, they end up in wheelchairs from accidents. They get genetic disorders. I have a niece with a genetic disorder, and not a year went by when she didn't need hospitalization at least twice.

It makes me ill to see on local news stories of families where the neighborhood puts on car wash fund drives in order to help a family pay medical bills; oftentimes the family ends up losing their house to make up the difference anyway. And not everyone has the wherewithal to have the social network to support them in their troubles. Especially if they're working two jobs -- what time is there to socialize, to even make friends who would help pitch in?

Did you not read the earlier thread about the child in Alabama?

"Screw it."?? Thanks, Ebeneezer.
Kate | 11.20.04 - 3:32 am | #

Problem IS,

John Kerry IS the Leadership Vacuum of the Democratic Party.

Look, people, I have a huge degree of respect for Kerry's intentions -- but his decisions UTTERLY belie that respect.

I personally like the man and his politics. But ...

Why anyone thought he was so obviously ELECTABLE is beyond me. He couldn't formulate a coherent sentence to save his life. He couldn't concoct a concise/succinct effective slogan/campaign speech --- Despite Bush's record and that the facts in general overwhelmingly favored Kerry -- the guy COULDN'T REFER TO THE FACTS TO SAVE HIS LIFE. Or to save the country, for that matter.

So why'd he run, if he wouldn't even defend his own honor?!?
RichF | 11.20.04 - 5:16 am | #

Frankly,
This "initiative" of Kerry's is an ineffectual, self-indulgent waste of time.

Worse, it's a distraction from Kerry's real job -- which is to see that votes get counted in America.

What more important job could there be?!? Instead, what we have is a quitter who does not feel any urgency or necessity in seeing America fulfill its laws or live up to its character. Apparently, there is no PRINCIPLE involved here for Mr. Kerry to fight for, so how can there be ANY class? Apparently, Kerry loves his country less than he loves his self-image.

I could have run a better campaign. Who's he been listening to? Some aristocracy of the Demo Beltway?
RichF | 11.20.04 - 5:26 am | #

It's not about demanding Kerry be perfect: no one has excoriated him unfairly.

It's about insisting that there are some aspects of America and about democracy that cannot be shrugged off. "Oh well, they didn't count the votes. Oh well. I guess vote-counting really isn't SUCH a big deal.. Hey, tea and crumpets and CLASS anyone?"

Yeah, I think Kerry's a great guy. His decisions during the campaign and on election day are Absolutely Execrable. He knew vote-counting, etc., would be a big deal -- yet no media campaign to raise the issue; NO leadership in amassing popular pressure to gain verifiable electoral integrity; no lawyers acting on his behalf.

WE told him & the Dems voter fraud, etc., would be a HUGE deal -- what does it TAKE to get through to Kerry on this shite???? When it comes to misunderstanding the stakes, this makes him appear to be just another Beltway Insider Aristocrat. I wouldn't vote for him again.
RichF | 11.20.04 - 5:35 am | #

Kerry needs to get a life. He lost. Go home. Let someone who understands the majority of the Americans try to bring the Democratic party together, otherwise they will suffer the same result in 2008. Nah, better yet, let him keep up the Kerry-Edwards campaign. It worked well for the country.
Gaye Hager | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 9:45 am | #

If Kerry REALLY appreciated what the faithful did, he would NOT have conceded immediately - and he would NOW IMMEDIATELY GIVE HIS FULL SUPPORT to the Ohio and Florida 'anomaly' investigations.

The perfunctory responses he is giving to the subject are EXTREMELY insulting to us who worked so hard for him.

My God! What could be more important than the integrity of our vote?
Dorothy M. Ligon | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 10:42 am | #

Well said, Dorothy. It sickens me that Kerry still has $15 MIL left over. I bought into the "Kerry is our best chance to beat Bush" argument this time, but I'm back to voting Green from now on. As our Chimp-in-chief said, "Fool me twice, well, you won't get fooled again." Screw Kerry.
Richard D. | 11.20.04 - 11:30 am | #

Dorothy said, "If Kerry REALLY appreciated what the faithful did, he would NOT have conceded immediately" and then Richard said, "It sickens me that Kerry still has $15 MIL left over." Both of them are pissed at Kerry. Everybody's so busy being pissed at Kerry, that they don't take time to connect the dots. Kerry conceded so that his team could pursue the legal strategies to challenge the vote counts under the radar. He kept the $10 mil (his holdback was overestimated) to fund the legal challenges. I felt pissed about both things, too, until I took the time to investigate his motivations on both. Take a deep breath, and stand behind our man. He's doing what we all want - serving as the opposition.
Melissa | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 12:25 pm | #

"I certainly can't argue against health care for children but is it a band-aid so we don't have to totally fix health care or is it a stepping stone toward more insurance for all?

This is important.
rutbag"

No, it's a ploy to embarrass the GOP. This bill doesn't have a prayer of passing, but making the Republicans kill in, live on prime time TV, at the same time they cut taxes for stock millionaires and get millions of Americans thrown off their health plans, will show the country what's behind the mask.

You want to talk about values? Cut to shots of sick kids, and their moms who can't pay the bills. "And the Republicans are too busy defending Tom Delay to care."

We'll get 'em next time.
joe | 11.20.04 - 2:53 pm | #

Melissa is correct. The money Kerry held back is for the fight he about to begin. He is no dummy. Edwards is no dummy. We are the dummies.

Has anyone bothered to ask, 'Where is Jessie Jackson?" This man was the most vocal person on the electoral trail about voter intimidation and fraud. He was the person who coordinated the day-after demonstrations in case of voter fraud. Don't you all think it is very suspicious that he never called for these demonstrations? That we haven't heard a word from him?

Do you think this man is a quitter? Hell no. He just KNOWS what is going on.

That Kerry and Edwards are working behind the scenes coordinating the biggest legal case of their careers that will knock out Bush and his cohorts so far out to the moon we'll never hear from them again.

So just sit back. Watch the show. And don't forget to support Kerry when he asks us for help.
professor s | 11.20.04 - 8:08 pm | #

Maybe something under the radar IS happening. See:

http://northcountynews.com/view....17-04/ news5.htm

Recount efforts in Ohio by Kerry intensify

by Adam Stone

A top-ranking official with Democratic Senator John Kerry's presidential campaign told North County News last week that although unlikely, there is a recount effort being waged that could unseat Republican President George W. Bush.

"We have 17,000 lawyers working on this, and the grassroots accountability couldn't be any higher -no (irregularity) will go unchecked. Period," Kerry spokesman David Wade said. etc
puzzled | 11.21.04 - 1:05 am | #

puzzled:
That's a possibility. Kerry may want to just fly below the radar. And I can give him credit for doing it this way.

Only problem is, David Wade has openly mocked internet talk & research as being "conspiracy theories." How brave.

17,000 lawyers now, are 17,000 lawyers TOO LATE. They should have been on hand to make sure voting lines moved fast in Dem counties in OH, for instance. AND challenged voting machine technology that's not transparent prior to NOv 2.

You DO HAVE TO openly assert the facts in order to get the "mainstream" media to even begin to cover the Truth.
RichF | 11.22.04 - 8:20 am | #

puzzled:

While I hope what you say is true re Kerry's recount efforts, it is NOT at all clear from the link that it's happening.

Fully HALF of your cite finds Kerry's claims of pursuing a recount to be laughable.

HERE's how to fill a Leadership Vacuum (same link):

"What he should do is call a national press conference, recite each and every case of apparent fraud and or error that could bear on the outcome," DeBar said. "(Kerry) should remind voters strongly of the 2000 theft of Florida…he should redefine the results, and then redefine himself as someone worthy of challenging them. And he should go to the mat, both legally and politically."
RichF | 11.22.04 - 8:33 am | #

puzzled:

Problem is, this approach works great for SINKING legitimate challenges, but NOT for pursuing them.

Watch for repeated assurances from Kerry, followed by -- bloop! -- Nothing.

Recall how many tens upon tens of millions of dollars Kerry spent to keep Nader off the ballot. Which indicates a failed understanding of the role Nader played in '00 -- as well as a failed understanding of how to run a winning campaign!

Wouldn't a true leader, wouldn't a CLASSY statesman -- be WILLING to publicly insist that the best interest of the nation is to count all the votes, & conduct verifiable elections?????????
RichF | 11.22.04 - 8:40 am | #

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