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I'MMA LET YOU FINISH

first secundo
bebe rebozo | 11.20.04 - 2:27 pm | #

Does this mean I have to give up Tom Toles?
watertiger | 11.20.04 - 2:30 pm | #

The worst part is that the fake "Christians" give Christianity a bad name.
Riesz Fischer | 11.20.04 - 2:34 pm | #

You can contact the anti-homosexual group directly at: http://www.bothsidesmag.com/cont...ct/ contact.html as well as WaPo: ombudsman@washpost.com

Hate and fear are the means of theocratic fascists.
Brian Griffin | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 2:36 pm | #

I wonder if Mehlman has so repressed his sexuality that this doesn't bother him.
watertiger | 11.20.04 - 2:37 pm | #

I BLAME BUSH!
Ibla Mebush | 11.20.04 - 2:37 pm | #

what's the washington post?
theodoric | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 2:38 pm | #

Holy shit!

Would they run a supplement that called fundies religious wackos?

Maybe we should raise the money and test that theory out.
fourlegsgood | 11.20.04 - 2:38 pm | #

i'm surprised that any of your readers still have a subscription to that fishwrap after all the lies and foolishness you've pointed to there in the last four years.

but yell at them anyway, for all the good it'll do. we won't go quietly, etc.
chicago dyke | 11.20.04 - 2:39 pm | #

How will i read E.J.Dionne then?
go here --> www.kohlmanobserver.com
Jake | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 2:41 pm | #

I haven't checked out the insert, don't want to get too pissed off on this beautiful sunny morning in SF. Are there any advertisements? If so let's go after them as well. Money talks!
ps Howard Kurtz is a spinless impnard, if he had half a brain it would be lonely.
nenabeans | 11.20.04 - 2:41 pm | #

When I taught Middle School in South Central, I was amazed at the anti-immigrant/ anti-Mexican vitriol in my 8th Grade classroom, brought out by Pete Wilson's Prop 187.

Can't we all just get along?

?
Bosco Belle | 11.20.04 - 2:43 pm | #

Fucking whores.
Sean | 11.20.04 - 2:45 pm | #

Good thing I don't subscribe to that cat box liner.

How fucking sickening.
Barndog | 11.20.04 - 2:47 pm | #

Will you look at that. Why "Doctor" James Dobson has an article in the insert with the sub-title "Reaching with faith and reason"

I guess next week's article will "educate" the masses that Jews are not only inferior but are born that way as a sign from god that they must be destroyed.

Yes-siree. New American Century.
Jack | 11.20.04 - 2:50 pm | #

We have become, and likely always were, the mirror image of the words etched on the tablet in Lady Liberty's left hand.

We don't want your huddled masses. We loathe them. We don't care if you yearn to breathe free. We'll kill you.

We the people, by force of the world's ultimate arms, reserve the right to worship Jesus while sodomizing Mary.
Wildebeest | 11.20.04 - 2:51 pm | #

The end times are upon us. Repent, lest ye be cast down into the pit.

For the last shall be first, and first last.

And a small reptile with the mark of the beast shall be uplifted into the halls of power, and his name shall be STUPID. And STUPID shall make the people bow down and worship him.

Thus it is written: Those that traffic with STUPID shall be burned in nether pits of Hades, with their children and their children's children. For STUPID is a foolish god and destroys all that worship him.

And the people that repudiate STUPID shall be sorely tried. And they shall be called UNPATRIOTIC and ATHEISTIC and shall have many travails.

And in the second year of the second dynasty of STUPID, there shall come a great wailing and gnashing of teeth. And the STUPID shall be cast down, and his minions dispersed to the ends of the earth, where they shall perish of their own ignorance. And the repudiators known as UNPATRIOTIC shall henceforth be called the BLESSED, and uplifted to the right-hand of the LORD, where they shall be glorified unto all eternity. And those called ATHEISTIC shall be known to the ends of the earth as WISE and KNOWING. And the earht shall be whole again, and the people shall rejoice.

Thus spake the humble prophet, John.

Ye have been warned, followers of STUPID.

John the Revelator | 11.20.04 - 2:51 pm | #

Here's my email to WaPo:

Great job, Washington Post!

Both Sides Magazine is racist, unscientific AND homophobic. A three-for-one! I hope you are enjoying the revenue you made off this publication.

One question: how do you sleep at night?
c | 11.20.04 - 2:51 pm | #

What I don't get is, where do fundie babies come from? These people have a pathological fear of sex -- how do they reproduce???
Roddy McCorley | 11.20.04 - 2:54 pm | #

BothSides Magazine

Impacting the Culture with Faith AND Reason

kinda like how fish and peanutbutter go together......sounds healthy but everyone knows they dont mix well
Homer_J | 11.20.04 - 2:55 pm | #

"The worst part is that the fake "Christians" give Christianity a bad name."

I suggest a new name for them: Christioids.

Kinda like hemorrhoids for Christ.
Roddy McCorley | 11.20.04 - 2:56 pm | #

sure would've been nice to have been able to actually READ the garbage so I'd have talking points.
But thanks to the miracle of pdf files, my computer has to be restarted every tiem I try to look at one. the whole goddamn works freezes up.
God I hate pdf.
brendan | 11.20.04 - 2:59 pm | #

The pdf links won't open on my computer. I can't write a letter about something I haven't seen.
cs | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 3:01 pm | #

A bit over the top response to a frigging newspaper ad. Since when is debating the merits of scientific "proof" regarding the origin of homosexuality to be considered "homophobic"?

The more the Democrats force blacks to decide between family values and homosexuals, the more votes they will lose. And when the Democrats begin to garner less than 75% of the black vote, that's when they will never win another major election in this country.
Walter Cronkite | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 3:01 pm | #

I don't know why any progressive would still be supporting White House Stenowhores like the WaPo or NYT but if any still are, now would indeed be a good time to cancel.

Perhaps they thought they could get away with it since so many panicked Democrats immediatley turned on gays right after the election. I've not forgotten or forgiven that ugly display.
Eric | 11.20.04 - 3:03 pm | #

Cronkite, earlier today you called Marines in Fallujah "fucking cowards." You disgust me.
Turnipseed | 11.20.04 - 3:03 pm | #

I work for an ad agency and I do a lot of business with WaPo. Monday morning I may actually convene a meeting with our media buyers about this very issue and possible arrange a boycott unless they a) publicly condemn and apologize for placing the ad and b) say they will no longer accept any type of advertisements in the future.
Jack | 11.20.04 - 3:04 pm | #

New American Century? Nah. Old American Century...
Kate_Storm | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 3:06 pm | #

Can anyone tell me a way to review the insert?
cs | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 3:06 pm | #

The latest free Acrobat reader (what you need to see .pdf files) can be downloaded here:

http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/ readstep2.html
not you | 11.20.04 - 3:07 pm | #

They really don't know life at all.

.
Bosco Belle | 11.20.04 - 3:10 pm | #

The worst part is that the fake "Christians" give Christianity a bad name.

oh, horseshit.

Is this the American Christianity that segregated itself into black and white pieces that you're talking about?

Or the South African Christianity that came up with, stood by, and tolerated apartheid?

Or the German Christianity that watched the Holocaust?

Or the Russian Christianity that allowed itself to ruled by the Bolsheviks?

Or the French Christianity that exterminated the Cathars?

Or the Holy Roman Christianity that conducted the Crusades?

Christianity has been the ruling ethic of the Western world for more than 1500 years now, and millions of lives have been taken by what I'm sure you would refer to as "fake Christians".

That won't cut it, buster. The people who do this are your "brothers" and "sisters" with whom you commune in the "Body of Christ". They are not repudiated by your theology, and they are not repudiated by your church.

That makes anyone who claims the name "Christian" an accomplice to this shit.

Period.
theodoric | 11.20.04 - 3:11 pm | #

New report outlines ways gay community can stay healthy during anti-gay campaigns

Amherst, MA---Gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender people and their heterosexual allies can take concrete steps to resist feelings of isolation, stress, and sadness in the face of anti-gay campaigns, according to a new publication by the Institute for Gay and Lesbian Strategic Studies. [All IGLSS publications are available for free at www.iglss.org ]

Communities in eleven states enacted divisive anti-gay referenda in this month’s election. In the course of these campaigns to limit the rights of gay people, well-publicized stereotypes and hostility became dominant themes that challenged the psychological well-being of GLBT people.

“I’ve heard many stories about fear, sadness, and a sense of loss from people all over the country,” noted Dr. Glenda Russell, author of the report. “Putting the civil rights of one group to a vote takes an enormous psychological toll on members of that group, as well as on communities and on families.”

After Michigan voters amended the state constitution to ban same-sex marriages, Greg Varnum saw this impact first-hand at Eastern Michigan University. He described the aftermath of the vote: "In my role as student coordinator of the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual Resource Center, I have seen people dealing with surprise, anger, and sadness, with a sense of powerlessness and a desire to want to know what to do next."

The report, entitled “Surviving and Thriving in the Midst of Anti-Gay Politics,” presents three primary strategies: analysis, action, and allies. GLBT people should analyze the homophobia present in the campaign, take action to resist anti-gay efforts, and draw on the support of heterosexual allies. Russell noted that heterosexual allies play a particularly important role in reducing feelings of isolation in addition to the value of their political support.

“The research on how people get through the tough political times shows that these strategies work,” according to author Glenda Russell, a psychologist and IGLSS senior research associate. “Although you can’t shut out the negative messages about gay people that blanket a community during a campaign, we can respond to them in constructive ways.”

The new report outlines strategies for individuals and for organizations. Community organizations of all kinds can provide important outlets for individuals to work through their feelings productively.

[snip]
JeffCO | 11.20.04 - 3:15 pm | #

Jack, thanks for even considering doing that. For some reason, I think that these whores will only respond to financial pressure.
Sean | 11.20.04 - 3:16 pm | #

JeffCo - Great comment. This is all so ridiculous and so damn sad.

Gay people die at age 41? These people are unbelievably ignorant and I feel terrible about this whole thing.
Tena | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 3:17 pm | #

Rock on theodoric..this "but they aren't real Christians" excuse just doesn't cut it.

And funny, but that's what they say about liberal Christians too. Why? Because BOTH right and left Christians pick and choose whatever lines out of their bibles that confirm their pre-existing desires, views, prejudices, etc. and then ignore or explain away the rest.
Eric | 11.20.04 - 3:17 pm | #

I get the Washington Post (delivered) and it's not in mine. Maybe it was targeted to Virginia subscribers? (I'm in Maryland.)

Still, I'm mad as hell.
KH | 11.20.04 - 3:18 pm | #

Timing is everything. Just picked up a good new screed by Lee Edelman: No Future.

Oh, and the WaPo is a craven business.
monica_nyc | 11.20.04 - 3:19 pm | #

I don't know if I can take 4 solid years of hate. It's only been 3 weeks and I'm already overwhelmed by it.

And I can just imagine how it makes gays and lesbians feel.
Tena | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 3:21 pm | #

I e-mailed the following to the WaPo ombudsman:

Sir/Madam:

Have you no shame?

What were you thinking?

Were you afraid if you didn't get it first, they'd take it to the Times?

Are you COMPETING with Moon for the racist/trailer-trash audience? Is it that large? Influential?

Is this an allegory for understanding the election?

If someone can get a religious sect or cult to sponsor racial eugenics, would you sell them the space?
Say, The Nation of Islam?

How do you plan to deny any responsibility for this affront to decency and fairness? What manner of Pharissaical circumlocution will serve to cover this feculent stain on your reputation?

Do you ever look in the mirror? Can you?

Yours, in utterly disgusted amazement (as if witnessing an execution from a passing bus), I am

Konopelli,
an odd man for the odd job, and
WoodieGuthrie'sGuitar (aka
Konopelli | 11.20.04 - 3:24 pm | #

The WP is a paper with a conservative bent whose readership are decidedly liberal (All those Washington DC bureaucrats, Washington urbanites & suburban free thinkers).

If liberal blog readers regularly emailed the paper complaining about their editorials, right wing dominated op ed writers, biased conservative, news stories, wrote their commercial sponsors threatening a boycott of their products, the WP would discover the error of its ways.

It would only take a couple of years of regular mass pressure. This is a paper very susceptible to our pressure. The WP, about 20 years ago, used to be a paper very critical of Israel & American support of it. The American Jewish lobby (don't call me an anti-semite, I'm Jewish & generally supportive of Israel but not Sharon & hard line goverments) launched a systematic campaign of letter writing to the paper & their company sponsors. They neutered the Post within 5 years. You hardly ever see any stories critical of Israel & no editorials ever criticizing Israel on anything.

Regarding Kurtz, he is a right winger, with a boyish voice, who is emblematic of the Post's political orientation. Some people here are critical of the NYT, but unlike the Post it is a liberal paper that suffers lapses. The Post, on the other hand, has an institutional bias.
Carter | 11.20.04 - 3:24 pm | #

I wrote and objected to them printing what this actually is--pornography. I know it when I see it.
Ronjazz | 11.20.04 - 3:24 pm | #

Brendan, they work just fine on my computer, an ancient PowerMac with a 400Mhz G3 upgrade, running the almost as ancient OS 9.2.2.

Nothing freezes or locks up.

Maybe you need to do some maintainence on your Windows (I assume) machine.

And to the fellow who can't get the links to open, download them first.
Chris Tucker | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 3:25 pm | #

Tena: take it in 2-minute doses and the party will be satisfied.
underwhelm | 11.20.04 - 3:26 pm | #

I read an article about James Dobson about a week ago in Slate or Salon where he said homosexuality in this country was, and I paraphrase, "worse than abortion to the foundations of this country because it reaches everywhere." What he really meant, and of course would not say, and which I've written here in the past, was that gays prove by our very existence, and from our miserable treatment and persecution over thousands of years by Christians, that Christianity is false. And you better believe Christians will be shipping us off to concentrations camps before they'll accept the truth that there is no God.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 3:29 pm | #

You are all my children.*

*subject to restrictions based on income, lineage or private behavior.
God | 11.20.04 - 3:35 pm | #

this sound familiar? (from the SS brochure):

We Germans have seen where such doctrines lead. Liberalism tore down the structures that held races and peoples together, releasing the destructive drives. The result was economic chaos that led to millions of unemployed on the one side and the senseless luxury of economic jackals on the other. Liberalism destroyed the people's economic foundations, allowing the triumph of subhumans. They won the leading role in the political parties, the economy, the sciences, arts and press, hollowing out the nation from inside. The equality of all citizens, regardless of race, led to the mixing of Europeans with Jews, Negro, Mongols and so on, resulting in the decay and decline of the Aryan race.
--------------------------------------

see, even the nazis hated liberals. the coulters, hannitys and savages of this world are in good company. now if they would just drop their thin p.c. veil, we might be able to see more clearly their inner nazi.
cereal breath | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 3:35 pm | #

I'm at least hoping that some of this business will expose Moolah Dobson as the extremist nut he is. I think he's kind of weazled into the mainstream over the course of years past - maybe this'll be his ticket back to the fringe....or maybe he'll just end up being our next president.

Pvt Sal Paradise | 11.20.04 - 3:35 pm | #

monica__nyc:

I'm glad to see you here. You're one of my favorite posters - provide a lot of worthwhile info & always incisive. The reason for my comment: I read through, a day late, some of the posters blaming gays for the Democrat's election defeat & suggesting a repositioning of Democratic support for gays. Some of it was over the top & offensive. I hope you recognize that this view is not shared by the vast majority of us I was worried you had left us & glad to see you posting again.
Carter | 11.20.04 - 3:37 pm | #

Hey, I'm a liberal Christian, and so are many who comment here. I may be responsible for the content my denomonation and may parish put out there, but I am NOT responsible for churches like this who twist Christ's message into hatred. My church works for peace and justice and ordains gays.

I don't give a shit who comments here.
I don't care what parish or what denomination they belong to.

There is one relevant question: does your church welcome all baptized Christians into your fellowship? Does it discriminate between those who do this kind of thing, and those who don't?

You needn't answer that question - I already know what the real answer is.

In the end, "liberal Christians" are going to have to choose whether they are liberals first, or Christians. And Christianity is going to have to choose whether it remains a haven for homophobes and racists.

All churches ordain gays - whether intentionally, or accidentally, or with a wink and a nod to doctrine. You might want to check whether your denomination actually has a policy of ordaining homosexuals - there are very few, a mere handful, that do, and that group excludes most of the ones that like to talk about "peace and justice".
theodoric | 11.20.04 - 3:46 pm | #

dedgeorge: Are you stupid? there ARE laws regarding truth in advertising. that "get over it" statement is half retarded.
garth | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 3:48 pm | #

I was wondering when the Dobsons get around to try to co-opt the black church...while exploiting the degree of homophobia into the black community.

This is disgusting, but sadly not unexpected.
Nancy Richardson | 11.20.04 - 3:58 pm | #

Carter,

I take a break from Mister Smith's gig every now and again -- f'rinstance, when I'm too angry to acknowledge or respond to a kindness such as yours. I believe you are correct about the majority of Eschatonians, and thanks for your thoughtfulness.
monica_nyc | 11.20.04 - 3:59 pm | #

Makes me wonder just how much longer it'll be before we have another Matthew Shepard incident.

I wrote my email to the prostitutes at the WaPo. And asked what Katherine Graham would think.

Assholes.
Towanda | 11.20.04 - 4:00 pm | #

What he really meant, and of course would not say, and which I've written here in the past, was that gays prove by our very existence, and from our miserable treatment and persecution over thousands of years by Christians, that Christianity is false. And you better believe Christians will be shipping us off to concentrations camps before they'll accept the truth that there is no God

That's very eloquent, incog, and I thank you for taking the trouble to state it that way.

Ultimately, I have to confess that I don't know whether there is some kind of God or not. The existence or non-existence of a God consistent with the available evidence is just not a very important question to me, and may actually be a meaningless one.

What I am confident of is that the God of Christianity is a self-contradiction that does not exist.
theodoric | 11.20.04 - 4:00 pm | #

The sooner this world drops monotheism, the better off it will be.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 4:05 pm | #

I just finished reading all the .PDFs.

My word! What breathtaking racism and homophobia in one easy to read package.

Appalling. Just appalling. Both the "magazine" and that the WaPo actually accepted the commission to distribute this.

They deserve whatever befalls them.
Chris Tucker | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 4:06 pm | #

Just in passing, for all they prate on about the "Armor of God", a pair of .45 rounds in the thoracic cavity will bring down the most devout "Christian" bent on doing the Lord's Will against gays, or anyone else, for that matter.

Again, if Matthew Shepard had a .32 pistol in his pocket, along with some condoms, he'd likely be alive today.
Chris Tucker | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 4:09 pm | #

My letter. Sample at will:

I just finished reading Both Sides magazine. It's rare for me to say this, but I found nothing of value in it at all -- it's an unusually vile, destructive, and hateful publication whose sole purpose seems to be to increase the difficulties homosexuals face in society. I understand that the Washington Post did not write it -- it "merely" took money to run this as an advertisement. To put it plainly, the Post is profiting from hate. It's an outrage to your readership and to your homosexual employees that you'd run this. Don't they face enough hatred in the world? Have you no sympathy for them? Have you no shame?

Both Sides dehumanizes homosexual relationships by comparing them to wooden mannequins. It displays a clear lack of understanding of genetics by claiming that just because a gene is not visible in parents, it can't be passed to kids. It cites a study by Dr. Paul Cameron, a "scientist" who's too radical even for most of the fundamentalist right, that gay men WITHOUT AIDS die at 41. That's absurd on its face. It bases its claims in a very strict and horribly inaccurate reading of the Bible -- and says that the corrupt values derived from this reading of the Bible should be used as the basis for ruling our free country. And it compares homosexuality to "bigamy, incest, and statutory rape." None of this belongs in the pages of any serious newspaper, let alone the Washington Post.

I vigorously support free speech. If these radical hate groups want to spew bile, that's fine. Yet I don't expect to see this vitriol coming from the Post. You should recognize how the horrible Post looks when it's linked to these groups by taking their dirty money. The Washington Post is no better than a paid assassin -- taking money from evil people to perform a "hit" on innocent people.

I'm a Christian and a bisexual. For the Post to insult me, my family, and my friends (gay, straight, and otherwise) by printing these 16 pages of filth is shocking and painful.
Matt | 11.20.04 - 4:10 pm | #

could be a coordinated attack. There is a "citizen's petition" for a D.C. referendum against gay marriage (even though Congress would surely squash it if our Council ever voted for it). See
http://www.washblade.com/2004/11...ws/ petition.cfm
for story of petition filed (notes that American Center for Law & Justice is helping). But the citizen, Lisa L. Greene, withdrew this week because of a technicality. Guess the boys at the American Center for "Law" and "Justice" didn't do their homework. See http://www.washblade.com/2004/11...alnews/ libs.cfm
kernal | 11.20.04 - 4:11 pm | #

The existence or non-existence of a God consistent with the available evidence is just not a very important question to me, and may actually be a meaningless one.

Actually, that's the way I see it, too. If there is a God, it would probably be like Spinoza's god but all the baggage and dogma of monotheism prevents them from truly understanding what that is.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 4:12 pm | #

Guys, you know the difference between us and them? They are mean-spirited, but they are better, way much better. See, the election is over just a couple of wks ago and these guys are already running for the next milepost. This local DC area church cannot afford to do a colorful insert and then distribute it through wapo. Some big funds or rightwing orgs are behind this effort.

Compare that with our own. Take OH for example. Where is the count the vote effort? No one makes an issue or fuss about it. Am not talking about Kerry. Where are the liberal groups, Dem party, black church groups, voting groups, league of women voters, environmentalists to keep the focus on OH counting? Dkos guys are the only ones keeping up the pressure.

We are just an election season revival tent. We get together for 9 months, get a candidate in, campaign, win/lose and then go home.

Sorry to be harsh, but when I read dkos postings on FL or OH voting irregularities, I get so mad.
How can this go on in the greatest democracy in the world?

Those guys play full court press and all corners, all the time. We just play for the board and we miss most of the shots.
ecoast | 11.20.04 - 4:14 pm | #

That makes anyone who claims the name "Christian" an accomplice to this shit.

Oh, but when the daily beheadings and other murders are made in the name of Allah, we must not allow ourselves to blame all Muslims, right?

A little consistency from you, at least, as coherence seems beyond your capability.

You're just as cowardly as the Marines in Fallujah who are losing this war for us.
Walter Cronkite | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 4:15 pm | #

Again, if Matthew Shepard had a .32 pistol in his pocket, along with some condoms, he'd likely be alive today.

Sad to live in a world where you need one.

I come from a family of NRA Life Members, but I've never owned one. Don't trust myself. There are Eschatonians I doubtless would have shot in a weak moment had I had the opportunity.

Or possibly just trolls.
theodoric | 11.20.04 - 4:20 pm | #

Just in passing, for all they prate on about the "Armor of God", a pair of .45 rounds in the thoracic cavity will bring down the most devout "Christian" bent on doing the Lord's Will against gays, or anyone else, for that matter.

For the complete takeover of this country by the Christian fundamentalist, they must first remove gays. I can remove about 100 fundies on the hoof before they get me and that's what I will do.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 4:20 pm | #

What's this business of gay men without aids and in long-term relationships dying so much younger than straight men?

Apparently, AIDS isn't killing them. Is it the long-term relationship that's killing them? It can't be a genetic trait shared by gay men, since, as they say, homosexuality is a choice.

Could it possibly be the homophobia of bile like this which wears on their health until they just keel over? Or perhaps those gay-bashings cause internal injuries which lead to their demise?

Don't gays realize that, if they'd just forsake their lifestyle, they'd live a lot longer?
liberace | 11.20.04 - 4:23 pm | #

For the complete takeover of this country by the Christian fundamentalist, they must first remove gays.

I think you're underestimating the cravenness of the average Christian.

Most of 'em don't actually care what you do in your bedroom, as long as you don't show up on their gaydar. Hell, a lot of them are queer themselves.
theodoric | 11.20.04 - 4:23 pm | #

First, I recommend a donation to www.soulforce.org. Truly amazing organization, and they've had successes combating this sort of thing.

Secondly, theodoric et al, your ignorance is astounding. Most liberal Christian churches don't require any kind of "loyalty oath", baptism, or other sort of rite of passage for you to be part of the fellowship.

Your appeal to history to prove that all Christianity is evil is a bit like saying that since slavery was used to harvest cotton, then anyone who wears cotton today is necessarily pro-slavery.

You seem to need an "other" to hate just as much as the fundies. You should be mad at liberal Christians for allowing fundies to make you believe that they have the genuine Christianity, rather than being mad at liberal Christians for being Christian.

I'd further recommend reading Karen Armstrong's Battle for God or Bruce Bawer's Stealing Jesus: How Fundamentalism Betrays Christianity for some insight on the difference between being Christ-like and begin Christian in name only (ChINOs!). Both books are excellent reads, and Bawer's book will certainly appeal to your vitriol.
cde | 11.20.04 - 4:24 pm | #

Isn't Christianity and Islam wonderful? Makes every day a Doris Day world.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 4:27 pm | #

just a spoonful of superglue makes the newsbox stay shut ...
sunzoot | 11.20.04 - 4:27 pm | #

I'm a local resident, get the Post every day. Here's my letter to the ombudsman:

Dear Mr. Getler:

I was, to put it quite mildly, shocked when I received my Friday paper with the so-called "Both Sides Magazine" advertising supplement. I realize that the Post is a business and that newspapers need advertisements to survive. I also realize that the Post regularly accepts issue advocacy advertisements for causes of all stripes.

My objection to the Post's acceptance of this particular advertisement is that it is not clearly identified as what it is: extremist propaganda masquerading as news. Yes, I read the notice at the top of the cover that states that it is a "special advertising supplement" and the notice at the bottom of the cover that states that it is a "magazine created solely by Grace Christian Church and is not a product of the Washington Post."

However, it claims to be a magazine "impacting the culture with faith and reason," and by its very name, it claims to present "both sides." This is completely misleading. The magazine presents only one side of the issue of gay marriage, and it is the side of the radical right wing.

It is also misleading that the magazine presents pseudoscientific articles by people identified as "Dr." Derek Grier and "Dr." James Dobson. Grier is a doctor of the ministry, and Dobson has a Ph.D. in child development. Neither article addresses issues within the relevant field of the author's expertise.

If it is going to be the policy of the Post to accept such advertising supplements going forward, I fully expect to see a magazine drop out of my Post a year or two featuring articles with titles like "What's in the shape of a nose?" citing to "Dr." Josef Mengele.
DC Pol Sci | 11.20.04 - 4:28 pm | #

MAN! I love it when you liberals get your panties in a twist!

LMMFAO!
John F. Kerry | 11.20.04 - 4:28 pm | #

You are all my children.*

*subject to restrictions based on income, lineage or private behavior.
Substantial penalty for early withdrawal.
God's mouthpiece | 11.20.04 - 4:28 pm | #

You should be mad at liberal Christians for allowing fundies to make you believe that they have the genuine Christianity

What if you don't give a rat's ass who has the "genuine christianity"? What if you just want them to stay out of your face and out of your gov't? What then?
BlakNo1 | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 4:29 pm | #

I think you're underestimating the cravenness of the average Christian.

Most of 'em don't actually care what you do in your bedroom, as long as you don't show up on their gaydar. Hell, a lot of them are queer themselves.
theodoric

Well, the average Nazi didn't arrest the Jew down the street, either. They set in place a structure where they had authorities take them off one by one.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 4:31 pm | #

dedgeorge: Are you stupid? there ARE laws regarding truth in advertising. that "get over it" statement is half retarded.
garth

Hmmm. Yeah. Well, on the other hand, there's that little thing called the First Amendment.

These fools are free to publish whatever nonsense they want. The question is, why would the WaPo, a once great newspaper, choose to give them a press? Did they really need themoney that bad? And where would they stop? Would it really take a swastika?

Let them instead leave this shit in racks in bus station bathrooms. That's where it belongs.
Dr. Pedant | 11.20.04 - 4:31 pm | #

theodoric - so all Christians of all denominations everywhere are responsible for the actions of their corrupt and bigoted leaders, does that mean all Americans are complicit in the war against Iraq? I mean, we're not rioting in the streets and plotting assassinations so obviously we're following like sheep. And before you tar me with the "brainwashed!" brush, I don't subscribe to any faith, including atheism when it's preached as The One True Way. There are courageous people of conscience in every group, some because of the faith in which they were raised, some in spite of it.
sister ann | 11.20.04 - 4:32 pm | #

The Washington Post lost all credibility. Stop relying on these media sources that are paid for by big business. They will NEVER provide the truth. It is always more cost-effective for them to lie.

Don't believe me? Take a look at the press reports about Vioxx when it first hit the market.
gop lies | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 4:34 pm | #

cde,

While I agree that using such a sweeping brush to tar every Christian might be too far, I would take issue at your statement about not requiring a rite of passage. I've been to a number of liberal Christian churches and they have all had at least a certain expectation. I've been in a warmly loving church who drummed a woman out because she refused to be sorry about her active sexual life. I've been in an activist church that split assunder because half the congregation couldn't handle a less-than-solemn service. I've seen people scorned for not wearing the right clothes, even when they couldn't afford the right clothes.

I don't see that stuff anymore because I finally got tired of rationalizing my beliefs in order to fit in.

Mostly, what I've learned is that people who are nice take nice stuff from the Bible. Those who are not tend to look at the Old Testament and Revelation rather than the Beatitudes.
Downbound | 11.20.04 - 4:35 pm | #

cde - Their Christianity is just as genuine as the liberal Christian. They can point to just as many bona-fid bible verses to support their take on it as the more liberal churches can.

This is because the Christian bible is full of contradictory messages...all peace and universal love one minute and all hateful genocidal mania the next.

Liberal Christians choose and interpret selectively from their bibles just as the fundies do.

Liberal Christians will never be able to effectively counter the "religious right" until they get off their high horses and realize this.
Eric | 11.20.04 - 4:38 pm | #

I can provide 16 200k jpeg files of the booklet for those who cannot access the PDFs.
Carmen | 11.20.04 - 4:40 pm | #

Sister Ann,

The answer is that, yes, we are responsible, individually and corporately, for the abomination in the White House and in Iraq. The Constitution cuts both ways -- We the People are responsible for the United States. The Declaration says the same thing. It's our job and when half of us choose to let it go, then yes, we are responsible.

However, that is not the same as being guilty. That's Dubya's to own and I hope he rots in the Hell I don't believe in for it.
Downbound | 11.20.04 - 4:41 pm | #

If Katherine Graham were still alive this crap would have never made it inside the Washington Post building let alone inside of the newspaper. Woodward needs to grow a set and we need to make sure he does. I'm writing my letter right now!
Monica A

It is not Woodward, Monica, he is just a tool. Katherine's son Donald Graham is the publisher and he is the one moving the paper to the right. When its readership is so decidedly liberal and Dem-leaning, I don't know why they do this kind of stuff. Bad biz plan.

Also, wapo is bigger than paper. They make their profits in TV, educational testing and other stuff. No profits from the paper, so no need to invest and or do some original thinking. They just let it slide.
ecoast | 11.20.04 - 4:42 pm | #

So-called "Liberal Christians" are worthless. They've had almost 3 decades to do something and they've just sat on their thumbs. Fuck your god. And when you die, there is no eternal afterlife. Get over it.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 4:43 pm | #

Incog, do you get a good road rage going every time you drive down the street and see all the big new churches going up?

Just askin'
Downbound | 11.20.04 - 4:44 pm | #

Incog, do you get a good road rage going every time you drive down the street and see all the big new churches going up?

I think what a waste of money. If they were true Christians they would just have maybe a tent in a field someplace and use all that money they spent on that building feeding the poor and unfortunate. But that's not what Christianity and never has been. Monotheism has always been about power and control.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 4:48 pm | #

Money quote from the opening article: "...the median age of death for a homosexual man without AIDS and with a long-term sexual partner is only 41 years of age. The median age of death of heterosexual married men is 75 years. The average age for a married, African American male is 69 years. If these statistics are even close to reliable, this is not only a moral issue, but an emerging public-health crisis. Passing laws that would institutionalize a life-style that could cut the lives of our young men by nearly a third is unthinkable."

Ergo, we should reinstitute miscegenation laws and forbid blacks from marrying, as allowing laws that institutionalize a life-style that could cut the lives of our young black men by 10% is unthinkable!
cde | 11.20.04 - 4:48 pm | #

Incog (may I call you Incog?),

I feel the same way. All the churches I attended did have the grace to be small ones. I am always impressed by old cathedrals and such, but only as architecture. I'm appalled that the money and effort was spent on the trappings and not on the people.
Downbound | 11.20.04 - 4:53 pm | #

The pdf links won't open on my computer. I can't write a letter about something I haven't seen.

Right-click and save to your hard drive. Easier.
Peter | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 4:56 pm | #

What sickens me is how all it takes is a slick sheen of "Christianity" to put an acceptable-to-the-masses face on what is pure ignorance, hatred, and bigotry.

"He's a Man Of God! Surely what he says deserves to be heard!"

No, it doesn't. Someone's got to mark a line in the sand.

If you allow the media to treat this shit as coarsely as they treated the Election '04 campaign -- lies will go unchallenged (and in fact be encouraged to gain traction), as long as both sides get a say -- then facts and reason are just going to become quaint 20th-century notions.

Let this one pass, and they'll be encouraged to continue. Sure they're repressed individuals, but they're going to externalize that repression as much as they can.
SteveNS | 11.20.04 - 5:01 pm | #

does that mean all Americans are complicit in the war against Iraq?
Sisterann, ya know, it's funny, but yeah, that's the theory behind democracy.

We voted, some guy sez he's elected, and moves himself and a cadre of the most vicious fascist, imperialist, theocratig thugs and gunsels into the houses of power.

He pretty well betrays his hand in the next four years, with myriad lies, thefts, and other thuggeries, meanwhile working diligently to gut the Constitution.

After four years of this shit, he manufactures, by hook and by crook, a razor-thin electoral majority to sustain his previous crimes, and moreover proclaims a mandate to further pillage, murder, and plunder.

The war goes on.

Yes we are ALL complicit...
Konopelli | 11.20.04 - 5:03 pm | #

I'd been considering unsubscribing, but this was all I needed to push me over the edge. They've lost me as a reader and I expect there will be many others unsubscribing too.
Jeff | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 5:05 pm | #

I think it's once again time to argue for taking the marriage out of the government. Civil Contract has been proposed and by establishment of a Civil Contract (not a union or a marriage) the whole same-sex marriage thing falls apart. Let the church offer marriage according to its beliefs and let the state get out of that arena. If need be, let the churchs be offered a dispensation to issue civil contracts as a part of the marriage ceremony. And yes, that would allow gays, lesbians, and any other partners -- or group, for all I care -- to establish the same legal rights to visit in a hospital or inherit or have parental rights. And let marriage be between a man and a woman if that's what the church wants.
Downbound | 11.20.04 - 5:10 pm | #

Anyone that's having trouble downloading/opening the PDFs, John (at AmericaBlog) said I could place them on my site:
Pam's House Blend

Also, since they are fairly large files (betw. 600K and 900K), you may want to (for Windoze users) right click and Save Target As, and download them to your drive and then open them.
Pamindurham | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 5:11 pm | #

I don't think it's about individuals and their repressed homosexuality they're now externalizing. That seems like everyone's favorite catch-all and it's almost bigoted, too. I'm going to stick with my original thesis that the church hierarchy, both in this country and in Rome, understands full well that if gays are ever treated with equality after thousands of years persecution of truly epic proportions by Christianity and its followers, over time as that truth begins to filter into the mass-consciousness of people, it will eventually destroy Christianity. That's why they fight us so ferociously.

All this from them now proves they're losing, I hope.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 5:13 pm | #

I have a problem with this, but I wouldn't call it outrage.

The 'special advertising' stuff is scandalous because it is very misleading - it's tough to tell whether it's an ad or not, and how many people expect a mini-news magazine - the entire thing - within their newspaper to be an advertisement? Props to the fundies for putting up the cash. Bad on the Post for not putting valid disclaimers on the pages - like 'This ad and its content is not necessarily endorsed by the Washington Post.' - that kind of stuff.

And advertising is misleading by definition. Why expect more from a fundie-funded ad?

I am close to being outraged to find out Dobson was a prof at USC. Or, maybe very, very unsettled at the thought of that dude being a prof, would better describe my feelings on his holiness, Dobson.

As for the race-baiting - who cares? People are going to need to think for themselves, eventually. The GOP is built on racism. If the victims of the GOP's racist policies want to help the GOP, fine - it's a free country - sometimes I'm just a Libertarian at heart. Many Republicans votes against their own interests by voting for Bush - that's the way it goes sometimes. Ignorance is bliss. I think most blacks think for themselves - at least, I feel like they're much less ready to believe what the gubment is telling them, unlike most whites. So, let's point out the facts, and let people decide for themselves.

Race-baiting is a time-tested American political practice. That the Dem party consistently fails to point out GOP thuggishness is on the Dems. And yes, I think the Willie Horton ad was more fair than unfair. If Dems actually worked on racial healing, a la Bill Bradley, then we wouldn't be so vulnerable to fundies trying to 'steal the black vote'. Or, maybe if a single Dem senator had joined the civil rights struggle during the Florida 2000 vote, maybe we wouldn't be in this mess right now.

It's time for a change. Dean for DNC chair might do it, but I'd rather see him run in 08. Actually, I'd rather see him chair for three years, then run in 08.

NO MORE WIMPY-ASS-MF-DEMS! BACKBONE! NOW!
Peter | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 5:14 pm | #

Carter:

As one of those Washington DC bureaucrats and suburbanites you referred to, I wanted to share my email to the ombudsman:

"I have purchased or subscribed to the Post since I moved to the area ten years ago. I have, on occasion, disagreed with editorials or reporting, but those were simply honest differences of opinion. The advertising supplement included in Friday's paper was another matter entirely -- it was bigotry and misinformation hiding behind a slickly published pseudo-scientific and pseudo-pious ramblings. My wife and I do not allow bigotry in our house, and we will certainly not financially support its dissemination.
Shame on you. We have cancelled our subscription.
Ted | 11.20.04 - 5:23 pm | #

What's taken you all so long. I canceled my subscription to the so-called "liberal" Washington Post years ago. Anyways, it's not really a newspaper, but just another mouthpiece of the conservative right.
Granny | 11.20.04 - 5:23 pm | #

fyi,

Washington Post rates for pre-printed inserts

for a tabloid size, if I'm reading it right, 8 pages (how big was it?) costs $114 per 1000. So assuming their circulation is around a million, that's $114K.
dirtgirl | 11.20.04 - 5:24 pm | #

And advertising is misleading by definition. Why expect more from a fundie-funded ad?

Yours and my tax contributions paid for it as part of faith-based pork.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 5:24 pm | #

Incog,
Don't mean to spoil your quite comprehensible fantasy, but...

I don't think there is anything inherent in homosexuality which is de facto destructive of the tenets of Jesus of Nazareth--

nor, as generations of almost ritualistic sexual abuse by the clergy of the young mainly rams of the flocks would seem to suggest, does the Church.
Konopelli | 11.20.04 - 5:26 pm | #

Just wondering... Is this covered as a religious exemption?
Downbound | 11.20.04 - 5:26 pm | #

It's a good idea to e-mail and call, even if you don't read the paper. That's what the wingnuts do all the time, and that's why they seem to be larger in numbers than they actually are. We are many,many more, but we are not out there yelling all the time. I'm e-mailing though I don't subscribe to wapo. Calling might be even better!
Echidne | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 5:32 pm | #

I don't think there is anything inherent in homosexuality which is de facto destructive of the tenets of Jesus of Nazareth--

The Inquisition and genocide of Native Americans especially in South America and those other examples of brutality theodoric listed above didn't destroy Christianity. Because that could be blamed on a more primitive earlier time of Christianity. But this is here and now when people can have an immediate understanding of what Christianity is doing. But people do have an infinite capacity to ignore what they don't want to know especially if it involves their belief in eternal life and salvation.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 5:38 pm | #

Look what your Christianity hath wrought, folks.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 5:41 pm | #

See it live and too real for color TV.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 5:42 pm | #

Reading the comments about Christianity on this board, I can't imagine how people could think the American left is out of touch with the grassroots, or is having trouble electing candidates.

Look, I know this is none of my business, because I'm not American. And I know you have some very hateful people down there. But a number of you have got to grow up, and drop the religious bigotry. Christians have to decide if they're Christian or liberal? How stupid are you? They'll choose Christian, of course. And you people will be blogging from the lovely Freedom Enclosures the republicans will be building in Montana.

Again, not really my business. Learn to goosestep, if your bigotry seems more important than being taken seriously by the electorate.
Finny | 11.20.04 - 5:44 pm | #

But the fundamentalist creed in this country has very little, if anything, to do with Christianity in general. The New Testament states that Jesus told his adherents not to follow the commands of the Old Testament anymore. A real Christian would pay attention to what Jesus said, not to what the Old Testament said. Jesus said nothing about gays or lesbians and nothing about abortions.

It's confusing to me who actually had to go to school where the Bible was taught to be told in this country by fundies that I don't know what I'm talking about while the people who say this have never studied the book they argue is the basis for their beliefs.
Echidne | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 5:44 pm | #

Riesz Fischer wrote early on in this thread:

"The worst part is that the fake 'Christians' give Christianity a bad name."

I have to say that, of late, I'm no longer willing to make that distinction for "good" vs. "bad" Xtians. If anything, the palatible "moderate" Xian (the kind that don't subscribe two six literal days of Creation or think that the Old Testament was just the same God of their fathers--only in a bad mood before "fatherhood" mellowed *Him* out)..that moderate Xian is actually strangely a buffer for this emerging breed of mythologically clinging nutjobs that are now apparently able, by virtue of their buying influence, to cajole major newspapers to circulate their tripe.

Sorry, Xtianity, as in the subscription to salvation-providing, heaven-rewarding, hell-preventing, sin-exempting..yet, strangely, also war-provoking, society-dividing, science-impeding faith-based b.s. that has been revealed to be in these woeful "latter days" is a relic. Following the lead of Sam Harris, author of "The End of Faith", it is time for sensible and accountable people to consciously separate their personal spirituality from arcane religious dogma, their perspective on morality from conservative fundamentalism. Fanatics in all hemispheres now get their finger on the proverbial trigger and they aren’t afraid to pull it, fully convinced of their heavenly reward in the great hereafter! We are not reasoning with people who value human life, the environment, or the future of our civilization. For them, it’s all pre-ordained and it’s their job to help prophecy along.

Yahweh, Allah and Zeus are cut from the same cloth, primitive conjurings of people with just bits and pieces of the facts.

It took the Roman Catholic Church centuries to acknowledge Galileo did not deserve burning at the stake (or even lifelong house arrest and censuring). We NOW know that the universe doesn't revolve around the Earth. And yet...Xtians metaphorically still subscribe to that notion. Per their dogma, all cosmic eyes are affixed on the great human experiment playing out on Earth, somehow eventually proving to the rest of the cosmos that that evil Satan and all his evil minions gotta go to the eternal incinerator, tucked away in some far corner of the universe. Yes sir, that’s some profound mercy you got going on there! Lest my cynicism get the best of me, I have to be mindful that that 59M+ who voted for Dubya are not into questioning authority.

Yes, those fundies are plenty embarrassing to the “sensible” Xtians in modern society aren’t they. Unfortunately, it’s occurring to me of late that those sensible ones are little more than an enticing chocolate covering for the hard nutjobs hidden within.

And for once in my adult life, I don't feel awkward or non-PC by just bluntly asking such folks once and for all to "snap out of it". Don't be annoyed at me if the truth has a sting to it. And if you are reflexively angry, look at wha
Bryan | 11.20.04 - 5:45 pm | #

I just had a thought. If Dobson is going to put his name on crap like that, which he's spewing out for public consumption (usually his syndicated, mass-audience stuff is relatively inoffensive, and he saves the real vitriol for his circle of true believers), maybe we should all target media outlets that carry his columns, radio spots (those abominable "Focus on the Family Minutes") and so on. Tell them not to carry the guy's stuff, because this is the kind of hate and viciousness he's hiding under his vestments. My local paper (The London Free Press) used to at least carry his syndicated column on Sundays. I wonder how they'd feel if someone sent them evidence that Dobson's organisation violates Canadian hate-speech laws? (Man, I'm usually pretty extreme -- although not absolute -- about free speech, but I'm liking those hate-speech laws today.)

Atrios, what do you think? Dobson has needed to go down for twenty years or more. Maybe now is a good time, as he and his little gang of brownshirts is getting bolder. Who knows what they'll be advocating next...
Interrobang | 11.20.04 - 5:46 pm | #

Eric:

Thanks for the "tar with the same brush" comment, and also for proving my point: it's a tenant of fundamentalism that you can cherry-pick verses without regard to context of the passage, its author, its intended audience and its historical context, and that there can only be one possible meaning for the verse and that it dictates exactly what you should do with your life. One of the great successes of fundamentalist Christianity is that it has convinced most non-Christians that their standard for judging the authenticity of a person's Christian faith is the only standard.

Again, read the Bawer and Armstrong books. I don't expect that it'll convert anyone to Christianity, but at least you'll be able to see the extent to which your view of Christianity has been blinkered by the fundamentalists.

Downbound, Incognito, et al.:

Once a Republican was nice to me and a Democrat was mean to me. Another time, a Republican was against slavery and a Democrat was a racist. So obviously being Republican is the only way to go. Those of you who call yourselves Democrats should just abandon the party because there's no sense being part of any group that has ever been on the wrong side of an issue at any time.

Yes, any time humans gets organized for a purpose greather than themselves it seems to fall apart. Maybe the Republicans succeed because they don't look beyond their own self-interest.

So I guess we should just give up trying to enact liberal ideals that we liberals agree on and concentrate on splitting up into smaller and smaller cliques and fighting amongst ourselves until a victor emerges and we all believe in one unified Liberal Manifesto.

I think not.

Look: It's not that I think Christianity deserves a pass on the criticisms you all are making, and that liberal Christians in particular don't deserve a few swift kicks in the pants, but -- for fuck's sake -- how about encouraging your allies to do good rather than telling them to change or die? Whose notions of being a "true Liberal" do we have to agree to as a group before we can go forward and try to make progressive change?

Have a nice evening/afternoon, everyone. I'm off to tackle the house projects.
cde | 11.20.04 - 5:54 pm | #

Go tell it on the mountain, Bryan.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 5:54 pm | #

Sorry for the double post. But in the spirit of predestination, maybe it's worth a second read.
Bryan | 11.20.04 - 5:57 pm | #

Sorry for the double post. But in the spirit of predestination, maybe it's worth a second read.
Bryan

I was hoping you would finish with the rest. It dropped off with "wha."
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 5:59 pm | #

Well, maybe gays are just children of a lesser god.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 6:01 pm | #

I live in Md. (Montgomery County) and did not find the antigay advert in my issue of the WP.

The county s almost entirely blue, so the people responsible may have thought the readers would make too much fuss.

Nonetheless the Metro section editorialists (e.g. Donna Britt) have expressed superficially moderate anti-gay attitudes along the lines of "America isn't ready, and the thought of two guys [or two girls] doing it just makes me so uncomfortable. It just doesn't feel right. It feels sick to me," ad infinitum nauseamque.

The Metro section editorials, of course, are often by / addressed to the African-American community. Steve Gilliard's blog had a post last week or so saying basically that "black Americans hate gays." I hope he was exaggerating.

Nobody would today publish in the WP even pseudo-moderate editorials saying siimilar things about interracial marriages.
sara | 11.20.04 - 6:03 pm | #

theodoric - so all Christians of all denominations everywhere are responsible for the actions of their corrupt and bigoted leaders, does that mean all Americans are complicit in the war against Iraq?

Do you pay taxes?
theodoric | 11.20.04 - 6:03 pm | #

What the hell happened to that paper?

The American media....trash.

I'll keep getting MY news from the BBC and from Canadian sources, thank you.

AND, of course, "The Daily Show."
Terry C | 11.20.04 - 6:03 pm | #

What manner of Pharissaical circumlocution will serve to cover this feculent stain on your reputation?

Konopelli | Email | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 3:24 pm | #

I'd pay good money to hear someone say that sentence out loud in a meeting with the publishers of the Washington Post.

As Chief Wiggum would say to you if your first name was Lou.

"That's some good writin' there Lou."

Feculent stain. Wow.
Pharissaical circumlocution. Man, can I borrow your vocabulary for a few weeks?
spocko | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 6:04 pm | #

Not to speak for Incog, but what I got from it is that homosexuality has been such a pillar of the Church's mythos that if it ever is successfully injected into everyday legal equality, then the other pillars will be weakened and may bring the whole tent down.
Downbound | 11.20.04 - 6:05 pm | #

Once a Republican was nice to me and a Democrat was mean to me. Another time, a Republican was against slavery and a Democrat was a racist. So obviously being Republican is the only way to go.

Yeah, and once upon a time a Muslim ate pork but generally, most don't.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 6:05 pm | #

Meanwhile, over at andrewsullivan.com ...

*crickets chirping*
vaara | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 6:05 pm | #

Downbound, that's what I meant. Thanks. Also, demonizing homosexuality and making us their scapegoat for all evil is very intertwined in Christianity and they're not about to give that or us up easily and let us go. We're real flesh and blood to battle daily and not some abstract evil like Satan. We make their religion come alive for them here on earth.

Even atheists don't come close to that as we do. That's the reason for their peculiar hatred for us. We're all intertwined in their Christian mytholgy.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 6:14 pm | #

Let my people go, Christians....
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 6:15 pm | #

Fuck my God? Whoa. How is this better than what goes on over at LGF?

Get this straight: I am a Liberal precisely because I am a Christian. Do you know what Jesus asks me to do? Feed the hungry, help the poor and homeless, love the scorned. Above all, love. Love God, love my family, my friends and especially my enemies.

I am a proud Episcopalian. Yes, we
Biblio | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 6:15 pm | #

Free speech rights vs. hate speech rights? Hmmm...I am definitely feeling it these days: the distinction between what we should be constitutionally granted to freely speak versus the vitriolic banter that can encite to violence, bigotry, etc. Unfortunately, I feel that familiar sensation of the slippery slope underfoot. I also wonder if that slippery sensation is the residual sour grapes I've had since Black Tuesday. Hopefully, I'll see my way clear to crush them into some lovely vintage that can be enjoyed down the road...say 2008. Raise your glass for a toast. The world's connected as never before. We can make it through this! (At least, that's the mantra I'll keep chanting).
Bryan | 11.20.04 - 6:16 pm | #

gays = sodomites
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 6:18 pm | #

Shit, Haloscan ate the rest of my post.

The fact is, the ECUSA is pro-life, anti-war, gay friendly and has an openly gay Bishop.

Incog, you don't have a monopoly on homosexuality. I'm bisexual, and I'm Christian. I'm not oppressing anyone and neither is my church.
Biblio | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 6:19 pm | #

I mean PRO-CHOICE. See, I'm all riled up...
Biblio | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 6:19 pm | #

Raise your glass for a toast. The world's connected as never before. We can make it through this! (At least, that's the mantra I'll keep chanting).
Bryan

Cheers, my friend.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 6:20 pm | #

Incog, you don't have a monopoly on homosexuality.

I don't have a monopoly on anything. The truth is all around. I was writing rhetorically.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 6:22 pm | #

Don't forget to cc: the publicly owned Washington Post Company's

Officers --

http://tinyurl.com/3ulb5

and Directors --

http://tinyurl.com/5b4uk
On the Clock | 11.20.04 - 6:23 pm | #

You know, the word sodomite is nowhere in the Bible. It's a Christian mythos invention to slander gays.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 6:24 pm | #

Sister ann:
theodoric - so all Christians of all denominations everywhere are responsible for the actions of their corrupt and bigoted leaders, does that mean all Americans are complicit in the war against Iraq?

Yes. It does. We are. What we allow to be done in our name is the same thing as what we do ourselves.

I mean, we're not rioting in the streets and plotting assassinations so obviously we're following like sheep.

It must surely so appear to the outside observer. There are no more innocent bystanders among us, even here at Eschaton, than there are in Falluja, where some 600 to 1200 people were killed over the last ten days but no civilians died.

And before you tar me with the "brainwashed!" brush, I don't subscribe to any faith, including atheism when it's preached as The One True Way. There are courageous people of conscience in every group, some because of the faith in which they were raised, some in spite of it.
sister ann

Good for you. Faith here is not the point. Doing what is right regardless of faith, whether you call it belief, religion, superstition, or whatever else you choose, is the point here.
The Other Sarah | 11.20.04 - 6:26 pm | #

but -- for fuck's sake -- how about encouraging your allies to do good rather than telling them to change or die?

well, because it doesn't work.

and it hasn't worked.

and every time a Jerry Falwell makes some sort of hate-the-fags speech, I see half a dozen people coming through here saying, "well, you can't blame me for what Jerry Falwell does, because Jerry Falwell isn't a 'real Christian'".

Bullshit. I know more Christian theology than that, even if you don't.
Mainstream Protestant theology says that all you have to do to be a Christian is be baptized. If you have been baptized, you meet the Church's criterion for being a Christian.

You can claim that those people are sinners, and that they shouldn't be doing what they do. And you would be right. But again, Christian theology says that everyone is a sinner.

So you cannot validly claim that those people are "not real Christians". That argument is as empty as any of the ones the fundamentalists make.

Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are ordained pastors of the Southern Baptist Convention. If your church is in communion with Southern Baptists, you are complicit in what they do in the name of Christianity.

If your church would welcome Jim Dobson to its liturgy, you are complicit in what Jim Dobson does in the name of Christianity.

In fact, your church is probably pretty homophobic in its own right. Just about all the major protestant denominations are.
theodoric | 11.20.04 - 6:27 pm | #

The Episcopal Church is against a Marriage Amendment.
Biblio | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 6:30 pm | #

On one hand, if the Washington Post didn't exist, there'd be nothing left to satirize.

On the other, wouldn't it be more effective to get the guy fired who commisioned the ad in the first place?

For the record, I'm a Post subscriber, never read the magazine supplements, and am saving the act of cancellation for the lead up to the invasion of Iran.

Kim
alt hippo
alt hippo | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 6:31 pm | #

The fact is, the ECUSA is pro-life, anti-war, gay friendly and has an openly gay Bishop.

I belonged to the ECUSA for ten years. The facts are that the ECUSA, formally, per se, is none of those things, and that the openly gay bishop threatens to rip the Anglican Communion apart, the same way that issue has polarized the American church for at least twenty years.
theodoric | 11.20.04 - 6:37 pm | #

"Liberal" Christians cherry pick and selectively interpret every bit as much as the fundies do. If fundy selective reading makes them not "real Christians" then you all aren't "real Christians" either.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad some few people cherry pick out only the nice, helpful stuff, but it is still cherry picking.
Eric | 11.20.04 - 6:42 pm | #

theodoric - so all Christians of all denominations everywhere are responsible for the actions of their corrupt and bigoted leaders, does that mean all Americans are complicit in the war against Iraq?

do you pay taxes?
theodoric | 11.20.04 - 6:43 pm | #

and every time a Jerry Falwell makes some sort of hate-the-fags speech, I see half a dozen people coming through here saying, "well, you can't blame me for what Jerry Falwell does, because Jerry Falwell isn't a 'real Christian'".

Christianity is all one big cop-out and so are Christians. Just like Rome's complicity in the Holocaust which they've never acknowledged. It all began when the church in Rome decreed hundreds of years ago that there were no miracles since the 9th century or there abouts.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 6:43 pm | #

Liberal" Christians cherry pick and selectively interpret every bit as much as the fundies do. If fundy selective reading makes them not "real Christians" then you all aren't "real Christians" either.

Christian doctrine is based on Dark Ages pseudoscience to such an extent that most modern Christians don't really believe it. Your average intellectually respectable Christian has been making it up as he goes along for about a century now.

They've gotten so used to making it up that they think they can say things like "oh, he's not a real Christian" and have them actually mean something.
theodoric | 11.20.04 - 6:49 pm | #

For Chrisakes, Christians, either reconcile with the gay community or fucking let my people go. Shit or git. That's all.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 6:51 pm | #

Echidne:

I'm e-mailing though I don't subscribe to wapo. Calling might be even better

My advice, whatever route you take, lie & tell them you're a regular WP reader. There ears perk up if you say this. If you have the inclination, go after their advertisers too. The Right wing has played this game successfully for years. We need to play catch up.

Ted: good work. The WP is one paper we can turn around. My recommendation is write/email them every time they step out of line.
Carter | 11.20.04 - 6:52 pm | #

Again, read the Bawer and Armstrong books. I don't expect that it'll convert anyone to Christianity, but at least you'll be able to see the extent to which your view of Christianity has been blinkered by the fundamentalists.

Sorry, too late for me. I was born into the Church of the Nazarene, grew up United Methodist, and finished Episcopalian.

My view of Christianity has not been "blinkered by fundamentalists".
theodoric | 11.20.04 - 6:54 pm | #

The New Testament states that Jesus told his adherents not to follow the commands of the Old Testament anymore.

Untrue.

Or, at least, if he says that somewhere else, he contradicts himself here.

Now, we could get into a discussion of what he really said or what he really meant, but that's not what you alleged.
theodoric | 11.20.04 - 7:01 pm | #

Suppose all of this banter and philosophical tug-of-war is for naught once the Arctic fully melts (already new shipping lanes up that way I hear) and the Gulf Stream stops (no pun intended) cold. It truly would be nice if more light bulbs went on over heads (and in hearts) and the new hymn of the day was Sting's "One World is Enough".

Sigh. It's all so trifling and confusing, with loads of ego-grandstanding, right and wrong, black and white, saved and doomed, yada, yada, yada. And I'm as guilty as the next one setting down for a good arm wrestle.

Although I am concerned for the direction humans ("..are a virus, Mr. Anderson") are going, it seems I've lived my entire life under the specter of someone pushing the red button that sends life into permanent meltdown. I'm done being frightened are even passively alarmed. I want to believe (yes, secular humanists have faith too!) that our kind are destined for better things, that Earth is just a womb of sorts and we have cosmic adventures to undertake...but...

...not 'til we are ready. I have a concern that humanity is sprinting across a plateau towards a cliff off of which we shall either fly or plummet and we have no idea what we'll accomplish until we take that fateful leap off.

Wouldn't it just be the hoot of all hoots that we didn't (attempt to) destroy this lovely planet in some testosterone-charged blaze of atomic glory but instead, the Earth instinctively, just held its breath long enough to sneeze us off?

I'm waxing so philosophic that I'm dripping.
Bryan | 11.20.04 - 7:02 pm | #

Bryan, been reading Ishmael?
Downbound | 11.20.04 - 7:05 pm | #

So Wapo dropped Ted Rall for being offensive but this shit is ok?
Alison | 11.20.04 - 7:07 pm | #

Yeah, I read Ishmael and the sequel actually many years ago now. Still in my library I suspect. Daniel Quinn made an impression on me early on.
Bryan | 11.20.04 - 7:08 pm | #

theodoric-umm, SACRIFICE MUCH????????
kei & yuri | 11.20.04 - 7:09 pm | #

I think it's once again time to argue for taking the marriage out of the government.

I'd make the opposite argument - that the church has no business handing out credentials on behalf of the government.

Read Garry Wills' Papal Sin; Christian blessing of marriages didn't begin until after the time of St. Augustine.
theodoric | 11.20.04 - 7:11 pm | #

Bryan : It seems as if what may be possibly the world's most sophisticated survival adaptation - the forebrain - is not sufficient to ensure its species' survival.
Alison | 11.20.04 - 7:15 pm | #

I want to believe (yes, secular humanists have faith too!) that our kind are destined for better things, that Earth is just a womb of sorts and we have cosmic adventures to undertake...but...

I lost my faith in a Supreme Being years ago. I still had my faith in humanity, though. But I've now lost that since this past "Black Tuesday."

Wouldn't it just be the hoot of all hoots that we didn't (attempt to) destroy this lovely planet in some testosterone-charged blaze of atomic glory but instead, the Earth instinctively, just held its breath long enough to sneeze us off?

Which leads me into this final statement of yours....I don't think we'll ever be able to fully destroy this planet and humans or its descendents will always exist. Our planet, along with us, will continue to revolve around our sun--come Global Warming or whatever, and things will continue to evolve and new species will arise millions of years from now or maybe devolve for us. And humanity deserves to devolve into a more primitive species since we no longer wish to use our collective brains. And we deserve no better to eventually look like a baboon on all fours with huge swollen red genitals and asshole hanging down for eternity.

And I leave everyone with my favorite poem these days:

There Will Come Soft Rains

There will come soft rains and the smell of the ground,
And swallows circling with their shimmering sound;

And frogs in the pools singing at night,
And wild plum trees in tremulous white;

Robins will wear their feathery fire,
Whistling their whims on a low fence-wire;

And not one will know of the war, not one
Will care at last when it is done.

Not one would mind, neither bird nor tree,
If mankind perished utterly;

And Spring herself, when she woke at dawn
Would scarcely know that we were gone.

-- Sara Teasdale
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 7:17 pm | #

I don't think we're on opposite sides, theodoric. I think the problem is the semantics. The word "marriage" has changed its value and trying to get people to turn loose of it would be impractical if not impossible. I do think that credentials belong to the government, and not the church, but I'm willing to use a church as a polling place or "deputize" church officials to issue a civil contract if that will take the rest out of church hands. I see the legal problem as the larger one. In an ideal world, you'd go to the courthouse and get the contract no matter what else you choose to do. Then you could go to the church or not as your belief dictated.
Downbound | 11.20.04 - 7:21 pm | #

Previously on "Blather On About Arcane Religious Crap"...

"The New Testament states that Jesus told his adherents not to follow the commands of the Old Testament anymore."

Sigh. Oh, how I hate to pick up this silly little gauntlet thrown down but one of my pet peeves is Xian know-it-alls who *think* they know what their *good book* actually says...

Matt 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Face it, your old testament Yahweh was a freakin' psycho of mammoth proportions. Then, modern Xians make these desperate attempts to sugar-coat the whole thing with anecdotal feel-good Jesus stuff from the new testament and balance out psycho deity with loving savior. It's so very tired.

Overheard recently at a party...

"Oh Him? . Pay no attention to the bearded guy in the corner with the lightning bolts. He's really harmless as a lamb. Really! By the way, have you met my friend Jesus? Have you tried those sacramental wafers in the hummus? It's t'die for!"

Starting my watch now to see how long until the first lurking fundie goes into a meltdown and either:

a) earnestly prays I will open my heart
b) hopes I rot/burn/suffer in hell
c) chides me for my irreverant humor but tries to empathize with my alienation and extends the loving hand to lead me back to the cross
d) all of the above
Bryan | 11.20.04 - 7:23 pm | #

theodoric,
of course you can find the reverse of almost anything in the Bible. That's why it has remained so generally read: anyone can pick and choose something suitable.

My point is that the form of Christianity I was taught used the argument that the Old Testament is there just for the background, not part of what Christians had to believe in, except for the ten commandments. The fundamentalists pay more attention to what the Old Testament and the Revelations say or what Paul says and so on than what is attributed to Jesus himself. If the Bible is to be read literally, surely what Jesus says himself should have more weight than what ordinary human beings wrote?

And I can't quote the verse for you as I didn't learn the Bible in English. But I can look up the reference if you want.
Echidne | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 7:24 pm | #

Actually modern Christians are lucky if they believe the TWO commandments and then only because those two actually are woven into the fabric of the law of the land. I know very few modern Christians who take the 10C very seriously, not to mention the host of other "have to's" listed just afterwards in the book Exodus.

Once again, blowing the smoke of sacred incense up our collective arses.
Bryan | 11.20.04 - 7:27 pm | #

Secondly, theodoric et al, your ignorance is astounding. Most liberal Christian churches don't require any kind of "loyalty oath", baptism, or other sort of rite of passage for you to be part of the fellowship

I know whereof I speak.

As I stated upthread, most modern Christians don't actually believe the faith they confess every Sunday, because it ceased to be intellectually respectable a long time ago.

But either there is a God the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth, or there isn't.

And either he has an only son Jesus Christ our Lord, or he doesn't.

And either Jesus came down from heaven, and for ue men and our salvation became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried, or he didn't.

And either he rose on the third day, ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead, or he didn't, doesn't, and won't.

And either lying with mankind as with womankind is an abomination, or it isn't.

and if you don't believe all that stuff, well, my question for you is what the fuck you're doing in a Christian church.

I know that there are a few exceptions. There are Unitarians and Quakers, for example.

But if you're, say, United Methodist, and you're trying to kid yourself into believing that your church doesn't require all the archaic trappings of religion I'm talking about, well, you're the one who's fooling yourself.
theodoric | 11.20.04 - 7:28 pm | #

"If the Bible is to be read literally, surely what Jesus says himself should have more weight than what ordinary human beings wrote?"

Ah, but you forget Paul and the rest were dively inspired, not just ordinary human witers.

That's the stock response anyway.

Slice it anyway you like but your interpretation doesn't make yours the only "Real Christian" version any more than Falwell's interpretation does.

As you said, it is a FORM of Christianity.

Just sitting back and saying "well, they aren't REAL Christians" isn't going to accompish anything constuctive. I respetfully submit that liberal Christians owe it to their faith, if not to their fellow man, to do more than just parrot platitudes whenever other Christian sects give you a dirty name.
Eric | 11.20.04 - 7:33 pm | #

Theodoric,

Some of the farthest left Christian churchs rationalize a lot of that stuff away. Unfortunately for me, my reference library is about 1000 miles away in my new home and i can't list books, but I can tell you that a lot of the more scholarly commentaries on that side take the whole Bible as a metaphor and therefore don't necessarily buy into your list. But this is where the mainstreamers start talking about tossing the radicals out....
Downbound | 11.20.04 - 7:35 pm | #

Have a good evening, all.
Downbound | 11.20.04 - 7:37 pm | #

Let's see...stuff Xian teachings have wraught or implicitly endorsed(the short list):

Holy Crusades
Inquisition
Salem, Mass.
Spanish obliteration of Latin/So. American indigenous cultures
Slavery
People of color's equality in the political system, society...the species.
Women's equality in the political system, society...the species.
Gay and lesbian equality in the political system, society...the species.
Lots of wars before, in between, during and current.

Even if you try to balance the short list out with good works (yes, sure there are plenty), it's still...well, about as good a record as Dubya had going into his second term.

Wait, who's my audience again?
Bryan | 11.20.04 - 7:39 pm | #

My point is that the form of Christianity I was taught used the argument that the Old Testament is there just for the background, not part of what Christians had to believe in, except for the ten commandments.

This is a reasonable perspective; I don't think that any culture's creation myths should be taken seriously, unless they happen to stand up to the scientific method.

But it's not the classic Christian faith, and even if it were, that would be irrelevant. The issue is that other people are out there teaching that queers should be stoned.
theodoric | 11.20.04 - 7:40 pm | #

...and that that's what Christianity is.
theodoric | 11.20.04 - 7:40 pm | #

Homosexuals: the new Jews
dissenter | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 7:47 pm | #

anyone know what it costs to put a special supplement in the Washington Post?

I wonder if it matters who's asking? I often wondered during the recent campaign if Bush was being charged the same rates as Kerry. God only knows, the media tried to give it to Bush for free whenever they could. And absent a fairness doctrine, I can't really think of any reason why they would have to charge the same.
bcf | 11.20.04 - 7:47 pm | #

We're better in the arts, they're better in finance. That how it plays out?
Bryan | 11.20.04 - 7:48 pm | #

Eric,
I'm not a Christian myself, actually. I just had to study Christianity in a state school in a country which had a state church.

I'm not defending Christianity at all. Rather, I'm pointing out that Christianity is a concept open to alternative definitions and that many of the more liberal definitions have been in widespread use for a long time, and in fact still are in many European countries.
Echidne | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 7:49 pm | #

Some of the farthest left Christian churchs rationalize a lot of that stuff away. Unfortunately for me, my reference library is about 1000 miles away in my new home and i can't list books, but I can tell you that a lot of the more scholarly commentaries on that side take the whole Bible as a metaphor and therefore don't necessarily buy into your list.

Sure. Anything less would be ...uncivilized. And probably not worth the trouble of getting a seminary degree to learn.

But that's not the classical teaching of the Church. And, the harder 21st century Protestantism tries to back away from the fundamentals, the harder it is for them to answer the questions, "so what's so special about this Jesus guy? why are we here, other than to enjoy our tax-exempt country club?"
theodoric | 11.20.04 - 7:54 pm | #

Late to the party, I see...
This insert WAS in the Friday WaPo I picked up Friday at a 7-11 in Oxon Hill MD (Prince Georges County). This is a southeast suburb of DC that is predominantly African-American (with significant growth lately in other minorities, IIRC. Lots of churches here too. So if VA and Montgomery County (MD) 'burbs didn't get this insert, I would have to join with other commenters in their suspicions that this is an effort by the 'DeLay/Republican Jesus' crowd to woo homophobic American blacks. Just one observation, and my $0.02 worth.
Steve-MD/DC | 11.20.04 - 7:55 pm | #

Homosexuals: the new Jews
dissenter

That's right. And look for them to blame gays during the upcoming disasterous economic downturn. They'll blame gays saying that, "God's showing his displeasure on this country because of its tolerance of homosexuality" or something along those lines.

What a fucked up belief system.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 8:00 pm | #

If the insert was a specific demographically motivated target, one wonders where they conclude the inclination for homophobia more predominantly comes from in the Af/Am community: religious dogma that they are still woefully steeped in or perhaps (thinking out loud here) a latent desire to have someone else be more despised by the het/white dominating class?

Bryan | 11.20.04 - 8:03 pm | #

A bit OT, but in the interest of tolerance and for those who have yet to kill their TV's, To Kill A Mockingbird coming on now on TCM.
JeffCO | 11.20.04 - 8:07 pm | #

Rather, I'm pointing out that Christianity is a concept open to alternative definitions and that many of the more liberal definitions have been in widespread use for a long time, and in fact still are in many European countries.

But all of them have been made up within the last five hundred years.

And none of them say that you get to decide who's a valid Christian and who isn't. Just about all of them say "Judge not, lest ye be judged."

At least on paper.

The thing that really frustrates me, and here I'm talking strictly in the context of American Christianity, is that there are very, very few groups that unambiguously teach that homosexuality is not sinful.

Even most of the liberal groups (with two or three exceptions I can think of, two of which are clearly on the theological fringe) stop short of endorsing homosexuality as a valid lifestyle alternative. There are minorities within most of them agitating for recognition of gay people as fully valid persons, but the fact remains that they are minorities.

So I don't have much patience for people from those minorities pretending that the problem is with individuals like Dobson. The problem of homophobia is institutional; it's integral to the church itself.
theodoric | 11.20.04 - 8:09 pm | #

Fuck you and your monotheism. Get up and go to church tomorrow morning then continue to persecute gays throughout the coming week. It's not going to make your God any less BOGUS!
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 8:11 pm | #

Vanity prevents me from saying by how much, but I seem to be living on borrowed time!!! Oy, who knew?
Think I'll stick to 39 a bit longer.

And didn't I hear some talk recently about a "Liberal Gene"? Gotta stamp that one out, for sure, or the integrity and purity of Body, Soul, and Blood & Soil will be compromised. What fuckers!

Amazing, but it's 3 fucking weeks and look at the shitstorm that's already being released - gonna be a long, long 4 years if we don't stand up to it, and now.
grishaxxx | 11.20.04 - 8:11 pm | #

Dobson et.al. are just the proverbial tip of the iceberg and Dobson, this time around is the raging fundie du jour.
Bryan | 11.20.04 - 8:11 pm | #

I guess blacks have finally "arrived" in American society when you're able to discriminate against others, too. And with the same ones who used to discriminate against them who's the same enemy we all fight, go figure.
Incognito | 11.20.04 - 8:18 pm | #

Suggested actions...
There are local interest news shows on DC-area radio that always enjoy taking pot-shots at WaPo. I'm sure they'll be positively orgasmic over the opportunity to discuss this story.

Two I have in mind are on radio, Mark Plotkin's Politics Program on Fridays on WTOP (he sometimes does mid-week commentaries as well), and Kojo Nnamdi's DC Politics Hour with Jonetta Rose Barras, also on Friday's. Plotkin and Barras both bring a take-no-prisoners zeal to their work, and I think would get into this story.

I don't get cable, so I don't know about opportunities there.
Steve-MD/DC | 11.20.04 - 8:24 pm | #

I shudder to think what pop culture would be in this country if it weren't for the Af/Am influence. I am particularly thankful for their contribution to pop music (albeit I never have really warmed up to hip-hop/rap so much). And black gospel music can hit an emotional nerve of this former Southern Baptist in a way nothing else can. Still, it's creepy to think of that incredible music coming from a people so passionate with a history of suffering so deep that they couldn't instinctively just get it when it comes to the rights of gay and lesbian brothers and sisters. I think I'll go re-read some classic Alice Walker now. Oh wait, I got "The Color Purple" on DVD!
Bryan | 11.20.04 - 8:24 pm | #

In an ideal world, you'd go to the courthouse and get the contract no matter what else you choose to do. Then you could go to the church or not as your belief dictated.

In fact, that's what my wife and I did a couple of years ago (well, we skipped the church part). We're not going to have kids; by the laws of several states, it wouldn't matter if we were first cousins.

As long as we weren't both the same sex.

And there is the tragedy.
theodoric | 11.20.04 - 8:30 pm | #

Thank you for spreading the word. Everyone should add their voice to the chorus of outrage over this.
jo miller | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 8:37 pm | #

Incognito, thanks for reminding me of that poem, and the Ray Bradbury short story with the same name. It was part of the 9th grade English curriculum at my parochial Catholic school, taught by Sister Margaret.
Gabriel | 11.20.04 - 8:43 pm | #

Has anyone ever found it unsettling that the primary emblem of the Xian church is the cross? The symbol of the bloody and violent and hideous death of its namesake? Why couldn't it have been the Christ in ascendacy to heaven, or rolling back the rock?? If one of the main selling points of this religion is escape from death as the end of everything (no resurrection, no heaven, no more - just dead like an annual plant), then why focus on that death and its horrible method? Why is the cross the focal point of every place of Xian worship? (And what's this "worship" crap all about???)

Xianity is like a pyramid scam: its proponents must "save" everyone not yet convinced. They are hard-wired to put their noses in everyone else's business, to convert, convert, convert. I've always been morbidly fascinated by it,as a mythology, the forms it takes. Little almost-blind nuns sewing gossamer-thin threads of gold and silver into the opulent garments of the bishops, the popes. Too strange. Catholocism is rich with this stuff. The Penguin Book of Saints an incredible read.

Xians should be allowed 4 books: the Gospels. No more. And they should be informed that the one supposedly written closest to Christ's death is the Book of Mark - and that was (again, supposedly) some 50 to 100 yrs AFTER Christ died. And, they should be held to Christ's words actually quoted in those books. Paul was a misognynistic nutball and has done more harm than he should have been allowed to.

I'm with Incognito, Bryan et al: this is not a nice religion, basically, as it stands. So much blood has been shed in its name ("kill them all: God will know His own")
sarah deere | 11.20.04 - 8:45 pm | #

Yes African-Americans hate gays and lesbians.

Yet for some reason they can't seem to be able to do without James Baldwin, Bayard Rustin, Lorraine Hansbury, Langston Hughes, Zora Neale Hurston, Wallace Thurman, Bruce Nugent and Marlon Riggs.

Tell Pravda what for, then go see Kinsey for the truth about sex in America.
David Ehrenstein | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 8:48 pm | #

Check the links on this page to read what the Episcopal Church teaches. You can laugh at it as useless superstition, but nowhere do you find prejudice of any kind set down as a teaching of the church.
The ECUSA is pro-choice.
The ECUSA is gay-friendly.
The ECUSA opposed the war in Iraq.

As for the ordination of Gene Robinson causing a rift in the Anglican Communion, well, so be it. People on this thread are saying "if your church associates with bigots, you're part of the problem." So the ECUSA is standing up to the reast of the Communion and saying "this is what we believe God calls us to do." It's high time.

The rift inside the ECUSA, on the other hand, was orchestrated by the Institute for Religion and Democracy and funded by Howard Ahmanson. The IRD's mission is to destroy all the mainstream Protestant churches and replace them with "confessing" fundamentalist versions. One of the things I try to do here and in my own blog is to expose the efforts of the right to discredit and dismantle liberal churches.
Biblio | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 8:50 pm | #

Oh and Incognito, I am going to church tommorow to praise God and to thank him for the blessings in this life. I am going to pray for peace and justice and listen to a sermon that helps me discern how I can use my gifts to live the way Jesus taught. Explain to me how I'm going to spend the rest of the week persecuting gays.
Biblio | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 8:53 pm | #

Assuming this is an opening salvo in a campaign targeted at the African-American community (I'm leaning that way, but the evidence is still a bit flimsy), no conclusions about that community can be drawn until we see the responses. And even if some among them take this foul bait, I would hope we wouldn't rush to apply broad-brush criticisms to what is actually a very diverse community (once you get to the important features beyond the pigmentation). As a hetero white boy transplanted from suburban all-white Ohio to this predominantly black area, I learned that one of the more subtle and insidious effects of racism - and this clearly applies to homophobia as well - is to deny folks their individuality, and to lump all "those people" together.

In fact there has always been a strong social conservative streak in the Af-Am community, as evidenced in a number of interviews I've heard over the years with jazz and blues artists, who often started out in the gospel choirs at their churches as kids, and met with considerable family and community disapproval when they moved on to those "sinful" forms of music that so many of us appreciate.

If this sleazy business is going where I think it is, it will be a test for the African-American community. I hope they do the memory of Dr. King proud in their responses.
Steve-MD/DC | 11.20.04 - 8:53 pm | #

You know, I like America's Blog well enough, but does anyone else have major problems with it loading on their browser? Maybe it's a Firefox thing, but I'm about to give it the same treatment I finally had to give Corrente: banishment.
dave | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 9:01 pm | #

I think the "Divide and Conquer" strategy is at play here. The purpose of this insert in the WaPo is genereating a lot of interest. If the powers that be can keep us distracted with whatever dog-and-pony show might work, all the better for them. Now, if I could only figure out who the "powers that be" actually are? Talk about smoke and mirrors!
Bryan | 11.20.04 - 9:02 pm | #

I was living in Nebraska back in the 1970s when Paul Cameron, then "practicing psychology" in Omaha, snapped his twig and began proclaiming the Homosexual Conspiracy to Destroy the World. I am honestly astonished that he hasn't wound up in a mental institution by now, if not walking the streets as a transvestite whore. He has claimed (among other things) that "most" war criminals as well as "most" policemen convicted of brutality are gay. Where he found significant samples of these "social elements" to survey regarding their sexual orientation is an interesting question. The answer is, he conducted no surveys, he just MADE SHIT UP. He has also claimed that the AIDS virus was somehow (through some process of infernal alchemy oddly unrecognized by mainstream science) actually created BY the practice of homosexuality. The freak has been tossed out of every professional psychologist organization unwise enoug to admit him in the first place. Rather than publicizing the views of this howling psycho the Washington Post would be better off printing a special supplement from the Flat Earth Society, at least they don't hurt anyone.
Jim | 11.20.04 - 9:32 pm | #

Oh, it goes on and on. Then concludes by invoking Martin Luther King's memory to attack us. Which is again an outright lie since Coretta Scott King has already said that the gay rights movement is part of the larger civil rights movement her husband embraced.

As David E. mentions Bayard Rustin was gay and he was hired by Martin Luther King against the advice of many of his associates. King refused to discriminate against Rustin, the architect of the March on Washington, if I remember correctly. The fascist right shouldn't be allowed to steal King and use his memory for their filthy hate campaigns. They're the ones who killed him, afterall.
EPT | 11.20.04 - 9:41 pm | #

The only thing new about this "magazine insert" is the geography. There has been a campaign to stir up black churches in the South against gays for a couple of years now. Don't have any links because it took me awhile to make the connection between stories in different towns at different times with different slants, and of course it fell off after the election was over.

It stinks of Rove. They figure if they can pull the conservative Black community in the South away from the Democratic Party, the lock in the whole region for a generation.

Washington is a southern town. It was well into the Civil War before the last slave market in the district was closed down, and even then it was perfectly legal to keep slaves there, you just had to do your trading across the border.
Xan | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 9:45 pm | #

"In fact there has always been a strong social conservative streak in the Af-Am community, as evidenced in a number of interviews I've heard over the years with jazz and blues artists, who often started out in the gospel choirs at their churches as kids, and met with considerable family and community disapproval when they moved on to those "sinful" forms of music that so many of us appreciate."

And who ran those gospel choirs?

GAY BLACK MEN -- THAT'S WHO !!!!!
David Ehrenstein | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 9:45 pm | #

"as evidenced in a number of interviews I've heard over the years with jazz and blues artists",

Read Alberta Hunter's biography, it'll set you straight on the subject.
EPT | 11.20.04 - 9:57 pm | #

Steve-MD/DC -- I was disturbed to see that the insert was published in my town and includes a bunch of churches in my area.
pol | 11.20.04 - 10:23 pm | #

I hope his kid gets his penis bitten off in a Republican cultural war.
dogbreath | 11.20.04 - 10:35 pm | #

No offense to people who are upset that all Christians are tarred with the fundy brush, but the day we hear your voices as a counterpoint to this hateful shit is the day we'll shut up.

Where are all the Christians? Why is it we only see and hear from the wackos? You guys can't get on tv? What is it? Do you quietly agree with these insane people? Why the silence? I hope there are more of you than of them, but all i see and hear is them, wanting me dead or "converted."
amberglow | 11.20.04 - 10:40 pm | #

I'm in the Virginia suburbs and my copy of the Post had nothing like this in it. I called a friend who lives in the District and she didn't see it either. I wonder what neighborhoods this was targeted at.
Tim | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 10:49 pm | #

Friggin death cult. Antiwoman. Antigay. Antipleasure. Antihuman body. Of course they use an instrument of torture as their symbol.

Sigh.

That is how I feel some times and recently I feel that way more and more

Then I remember xians such as Dr. King and Jimmy Carter and I remind myself not to allow prejudice to color my thinking.

But I will say that liberal xians have maybe 5 more years or so to recliam their religion before it goes completely over the edge.

I'm a witch and I know what the fundies will do to me, but it might behoove some liberal xians to remember than many of the people burned to death during the Burning Times were not actually witches. They considered themselves good xians -- but they weren't radical enough for the Inquisition. So don't comfort yourself that they won't come for you when they come for me.
Hecate | 11.20.04 - 10:56 pm | #

Well, Hecate, I consider you to be a source of wisdom, so I'll ask you:
What do we do? We are under the same slime campaign gays and Pagans and athiests and women are. Check out the IRD. They are well-funded and well-respected and they are on a mission to bring the Christian left, such as it is, down. These are the people who like to hold up Ollie North and Clarence Thomas as examples of fine Christians.
I am under no illusions that my faith would pass muster with a fundie. I have a born-again sister in law who considers us heretics. But I''m not sure what I can do, as an indivisual, to change things.
The National Council of Churches has been under attack by the IRD for 20 years, so they are marginalized as far as a voice for progressive Christianity goes. There's Sojouners, and Church Folk for a Better America. This group looks promising.
We're out there, but like other liberal folks, it's hard for us to break through the right wing echo chamber with a message.
Biblio | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 11:35 pm | #

I think the Ecumenical Institute is gone (haven't kept up with such since I quit attending any churches), but there are local groups still functioning in Kansas, at least, like the Interfaith Ministries in Wichita. You're right, Biblio, that the number of places is way down for the left side of the pews. There used to be a lot of activist lefties around and I haven't heard much from anybody but Jesse for a long time. And he's been caracatured for far too long to be any kind of a power.
Downbound | 11.20.04 - 11:48 pm | #

Here's what I just sent to "BothSidesMag" (the source)...

I have just finished reading the majority of your recent publication in the Washington Post, and I have to tell you that I am appalled.

The illogical responses to the FAQ's were completely unfounded and unscientific. The argument of heredity in determining sexuality showed a middle school or lower understanding of genetics.

I was raised in a Lutheran-Christian family. I was raised to love all of God's creatures. Your magazine not only undetermined truly good Christians but it also openly expressed a bigoted hatred of God's creatures.

I am disgusted by your publication, the Post's willingness to publish such a piece, and every contributing writer and donor.

My only hope is that God's light will continue to shine on this nation until we can truly become a country of love and understanding.
abbyjess | 11.20.04 - 11:55 pm | #

Hecate, the Apostolic Church has suffered under a succession of fools, fearmongers, terrorists and tyrants for the last two thousand years -- and yet the religion still stands in the hearts of its believers.

It'll take more than Dobson and his ilk to destroy a religion based on love and compassion, just as it'll take more than Delay and his penny-ante tyrants to destroy a nation built on freedom.
WatchfulBabbler | Homepage | 11.21.04 - 12:02 am | #

amberglow, I'm a Christian, and I'm very upset with this bigoted, hate-filled publication. I also know one of the pastors whose church is listed as a Partner. Not to make excuses, but this pastor is a person who is not out to make waves. I do not believe he would have been a part of this publication had he known this article was going to be in there. I believe he signed on because he knew the distribution would be great publicity for his church.

I sent him an e-mail and told him there were a lot of people angry at the WP for including this publication in its Friday edition. I have not heard back from him yet.
pol | 11.21.04 - 12:13 am | #

Watchful,

With all due respect, I'd have to say that you are wrong about both of them. Love and compassion may have been preached by Jesus, but the religion wasn't based on it so much as Paul's writings, and for all of 1st Cor. 13, he was a misogynistic bigoted fanatic.

The US wasn't based on freedom either, or rather it was only partly so. The ideals of Republican democracy only extended to the white male free landowners, at least in the mind of many of the Founding Fathers. There were a few folks in the South that definitely had a hand in the nation's founding without having any freedom at all, and a few more who lost a glorious amount of freedom to be forced onto reservations.
Downbound | 11.21.04 - 12:14 am | #

Parenthetically, I suppose I was keeping my WaPo subscription around just so I could cancel it in a fit of pique. I'm not bothered so much by the political stance of the supplement -- I disagree with it, but I disagree with a lot of things.

But there's no excuse for WaPo letting past an advertisement that is factually challenged (in this case, in its ridiculous assertion about genetics). Anyone with a high-school education in genetics can see the falsity of their argument. In more moral times, I suppose we would call these things "lies."
WatchfulBabbler | Homepage | 11.21.04 - 12:14 am | #

Here's what people are missing. If they refuse an ad from a black church, they will get pounded.

They are very careful to solicit the good will of the local community. But, the ad reps who approved this should have turned it down. If I went to the Post and said "Jews kill Christian babies to drain their blood" the editors wouldn't allow it to run.

Yet, they ran this to pander to the black community, where homophobia is encouraged.
steve_gilliard | 11.21.04 - 12:23 am | #

Wonderful! The religious wars have spread to the US of A.

I was hoping that soon all the people who believe in the magic of make-believe would turn on each other, and I can slink home safely while they're busy tearing each other's tongues out and nailing the heretics to the walls.
Jon R. Koppenhoefer | 11.21.04 - 12:39 am | #

pol, let me know what he says, and encourage him to maybe write an editorial about this--does he really want his name and his church associated with this kind of thing? or is it ok? I'm sure the Post would run whatever he said. (and it would be a way for them to try to save face, if they even care--i hear they're losing money and subscribers fast.)

I emailed to the ombudsman too, and am spreading this around. It's a shame that the Post spreads the administration's lies verbatim--they have to spread this hateful shit too?
amberglow | 11.21.04 - 12:46 am | #

pol, encourage him to maybe write an editorial--unless he doesn't disavow these lies. The Post would be sure to run it.

(He might also want to hear of Coretta Scott King's remarks at the recent Creating Change conference- Ithink we all need a few days to recuperate from the stress-filled election we have just experienced, but not much more, because we have a lot more work to do in our common struggle against bigotry and discrimination.

I say “common struggle” because I believe very strongly that all forms of bigotry and discrimination are equally wrong and should be opposed by right-thinking Americans everywhere. Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from racial, religious, gender, or ethnic discrimination.

My husband, Martin Luther King Jr., once said, “We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny…an inescapable network of mutuality.… I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be.” Therefore, I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.’s dream to make room at the table of brotherhood and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people.
amberglow | 11.21.04 - 12:51 am | #

sorry about the double(ish)--i've been getting errors.
amberglow | 11.21.04 - 12:52 am | #

[T]he religion wasn't based on it so much as Paul's writings, and for all of 1st Cor. 13, he was a misogynistic bigoted fanatic.

Not only that, but I subscribe to the theory that Paul wasn't even Jewish -- he does Greek rhetoric very well, but Jewish reasoning very badly.

And, yes, Paul had serious problems with women, and gays, and anyone who didn't agree with his vision of Christianity. On the other hand, his vision was remarkable and in most ways inclusive. It's a matter of taking the good and ignoring the bad, which some people (fundies and atheists alike) may lambast as contradictory; I prefer to think of it as correcting the misperceptions of a human who was not, himself, mediating the phenomenal with the epiphenomenal. (Besides, the principle of naskh is well-established in Islam. Perhaps Christianity should consider it as well.)
WatchfulBabbler | Homepage | 11.21.04 - 1:19 am | #

Would someone please tell Dobson that there's a NEW Testament to the Bible?

Thanks in advance.
dramaticpause | Homepage | 11.21.04 - 1:54 am | #

Get this straight: I am a Liberal precisely because I am a Christian. Do you know what Jesus asks me to do? Feed the hungry, help the poor and homeless, love the scorned. Above all, love. Love God, love my family, my friends and especially my enemies.

Biblio--Among the myriad creepinesses about this supplement is, in it, Blacks are exhorted to despise gays for (among other things) presuming to say that their struggle involves civil rights--the apparent assumption being that the Civil Rights Movement forty years ago would be cheapened by the use of the term by gays (much the same way some people claim their marriages would be cheapened by extending it to gays).

But an important chunk of the Civil Rights movement was that white people all over America, for religious reasons, or just for well-considered reasons of right and wrong, began to acknowledge the fact that everybody had certain perogatives, even people with whom they had zippola in common and mostly didn't even know all that well. MLK et al. didn't twist their arms--King just (a) stated the obvious and (b) showed that you didn't have to have your actions dictated by bullies. Anyway, you had white people all over the country going Doh! and smacking themselves in the forehead.

But it didn't hurt that most of these folks also came from religious traditions that taught, as you put it, " Feed the hungry, help the poor and homeless, love the scorned." (Or as I think of it: "Suppose we didn't act like SOBs? Suppose we tried something else?")

And here's this supplement meant to immunize African Americans against extending the same courtesy to another group.

I'm hoping that King's strategy works for us against the Your-Sex-Life-is-Our-Business crowd: We state the obvious and stand together against the bullies.
Molly, NYC | 11.21.04 - 2:09 am | #

BTW (and OT): You know those Senate porn hearings (yet another project of the right's real life Anti-Sex League)? Salon's news item had Brownback (the sponsor) saying "Some of his middle-age male friends limit their time alone in hotel rooms to avoid the temptation of graphic pay-per-view movies."

Is this typical Republican or what? Brownback has friends who can't even jerk off without blaming someone else--and he not only thinks their "victimization" is valid, he wants spend millions of our money to fix it.
Molly, NYC | 11.21.04 - 2:28 am | #

Bumper sticker I saw the other day:

About that "Love They Neighbor" thing?
We need to talk.
-God

Another bumper sticker:

God bless all people of the world.
NO Exceptions.
KG Prophet | 11.21.04 - 2:32 am | #

fucking nazis. death to all of the fascist republican pigs.
Tom P. | 11.21.04 - 2:43 am | #

Amen, brother.

--
Paul | 11.21.04 - 4:03 am | #

Still, it's creepy to think of that incredible music coming from a people so passionate with a history of suffering so deep that they couldn't instinctively just get it when it comes to the rights of gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

Thanks for adding that bit of pseudo-liberal racism to a thread already poluted with anti-Christian bigotry. (Because of course you just know that all Black people hate gays, the same way other bigots know that we're all inferior to whites.) I have always known that some of the worst racists around are to be found among the white so-called liberals. They're worse than the out-and-out redneck bigots precisely because they can't see the virulent nature of their own condescension and utter disdain for Black people.

But, hey, you just love our "incredible music," so I guess that makes you a tad less disgusting than the David Dukes of the world.
Xeno of Elia | 11.21.04 - 6:04 am | #

please tell Dobson that there's a NEW Testament to the Bible?

Thanks in advance.

I couldn't agree with you more.
pol | 11.21.04 - 7:47 am | #

>Still, it's creepy to think of that incredible music coming from a people so passionate with a history of suffering so deep that they couldn't instinctively just get it when it comes to the rights of gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.<

>>I have always known that some of the worst racists around are to be found among the white so-called liberals. They're worse than the out-and-out redneck bigots precisely because they can't see the virulent nature of their own condescension and utter disdain for Black people.<<

>Still, it's creepy to think of that incredible music coming from a people so passionate with a history of suffering so deep that they couldn't instinctively just get it when it comes to the rights of gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.<

>>I have always known that some of the worst racists around are to be found among the white so-called liberals. They're worse than the out-and-out redneck bigots precisely because they can't see the virulent nature of their own condescension and utter disdain for Black people.<<

This is a strange argument. There is something a bit condescending about suggesting that Blacks ought to, but seem to not, have an "instinctive" support for oppressed homosexuals. But on the other hand I don't think that it is racist to express disappointment that this clearly is not the case. This seems like a very unnecessary sort of fight.

Not an unnecessary fight, just a tiresome one. That wasn't an expression of disappointment in the what the writer perceives as lack of support among Blacks for gay rights, but a blanket condemnation of all Blacks for that perceived fault. This is as irrational as concluding that all whites harbor racist beliefs, when this is quite obviously not the case. No one knows what lies in the hearts and minds of an entire group, so such conclusions are condescending and ridiculous, not to mention racist.

I don't want to argue with anyone, but I will not let something as outrageous as that pass without comment.
Xeno of Elia | 11.21.04 - 8:23 am | #

I'm a day late, but has anyone mentioned the nerve of these assholes using the name of ML King? Don't they know that the organizer of the 1963 March on Washington was a gay man?
Karin | 11.21.04 - 9:13 am | #

And here's another reason to hate the Washington Post - their editorial encouragement of an end to U.S. "passivity" (i.e., a continuation of their attempts to overthrow a legitimately elected government) in Venezuela.
Eli Stephens | Homepage | 11.21.04 - 9:23 am | #

Yes, Karin. I mentioned Bayard Rustin, but few people in here appear to know who he was.

Or at least they pretend not to know.
David Ehrenstein | Homepage | 11.21.04 - 10:43 am | #

Yes, Karin. I mentioned Bayard Rustin, but few people in here appear to know who he was.
David Ehrenstein

I don't get it. Bayard Rustin had one of the more interesing lives of the 20th century. He was so important to the civil rights movement. And his later career is the silver bullet to kill off a major lie used against the gay rights movement. Seems to me he's important enough to read about. Just checked, there were ten books listed on Amazon all but two available.
EPT | 11.21.04 - 11:27 am | #

What assholes. And their genetic argument would be funny if it weren't so vicious.

FYI, I blogged an interesting new theory here, which says that male homosexuality isn't a matter of normal gene-shuffling, but of chromosome X suppression by methyl groups, which originates in the mother.
Philalethes | Homepage | 11.21.04 - 11:45 am | #

So, now I'm depressed. See you in a week or two.
EPT | 11.21.04 - 11:48 am | #

listen now, folks. i was raised in the congregationalist church/UCC and i fucking hate christians as much as you do. i see people with those goddamn ichthus things on the back of their cars and want to throw a cinderblock through their windshield.

BUT, in my community during the reagan era, they were the only ones feeding, housing, and advocating for the homeless, when all the "liberal" yuppies were stepping over them trying to pretend they weren't there. when homeless people slept in the church breezeways overnight, sometimes they would even give them extra blankets.

when the church got too liberal for some members, they left and joined more conservative churches. currently my old hometown church has a radical ecofeminist senior minister who preaches sermons about how fucked bush is. they never had any loyalty or belief litmus tests - they were happy to welcome every single nonbeliever who showed up, because their first order of business was hospitality.

i feel your anger and disgust, i really do. i think sometimes that religion in general IS part of the problem. but if you're going to decide to demonize people because of how they identify themselves, you're going to cut yourself off from allies that have been with you since this country was founded - people who hated colonialism, hated slavery, hated the genocide against the indians, hated antisemitism, hated homophobia, and in every instance acted politically and socially against those evils. they are out there - they just don't own as many tv and radio stations and newspapers.
r@d@r | Homepage | 11.21.04 - 12:31 pm | #

Ha ha! Getler's mailbox is FULL. I couldn't leave a message.

Guess I'll have to call him back and vent my spleen TOMORROW.
C.Fox | 11.21.04 - 3:20 pm | #

Here's my letter to the WaPo obundsman:

I am a sixty two year old heterosexual woman in Florida and am simply appalled at the trash that your paper chose to accept a cheap dime to publish.

Shame on the Washington Post. Shame, shame, shame.

I suppose we may look forward to paid supplements about the superiority of the white race and the proper place for women?

Is the Post's management not yet sufficiently embarrassed by our excessive and puritanical religious movement -- that is, assuming that the Post's management is part of the modern world -- that they allowed this garbage to be published for all the rest of the world to see?
Florida | Homepage | 11.21.04 - 3:23 pm | #

Here's my letter to Getler:

Dear Mr. Getler

For your paper to run that factually incorrect and homophobic piece of hate speech crosses the line. Your complicity in propagating anti-gay stereotypes on a national level marks your editorial staff as the Julius Streicher, and the Washington Post as the Der Stürmer, of our times.

For your edification, I have enclosed a picture from Der Stürmer that caricatures a Jew; it makes a nice contrast with the inhuman gay mannequins of the advertising supplement. If it was wrong to stigmatize the Jews in the 1930’s, it’s wrong to stigmatize gay folks in our time. And taking blood money for doing so makes it even worse.

Shame on you, Mr. Getler, shame on the Washington Post, and God help us all in the America you are helping to create.
C.Fox | 11.21.04 - 3:56 pm | #

The supplement wasn't in my copy of the WaPo so I wonder if it was distributed only in some areas. If African Americans were being targeted, they overlooked a bet as my county is approximately 60% black.

Does anybody know if the supplement was distributed in other parts of the country?

Wonder how long it will take Getler to print something about the supplement.
ej | 11.21.04 - 5:02 pm | #

BUT, in my community during the reagan era, they were the only ones feeding, housing, and advocating for the homeless, when all the "liberal" yuppies were stepping over them trying to pretend they weren't there. when homeless people slept in the church breezeways overnight, sometimes they would even give them extra blankets.

There are many good people in the Church. No doubt there are many good people in the Southern Baptist Convention.

But in my view they are there in spite of Christianity, not because of it.
theodoric | 11.21.04 - 5:10 pm | #

"The supplement wasn't in my copy of the WaPo so I wonder if it was distributed only in some areas. If African Americans were being targeted, they overlooked a bet as my county is approximately 60% black."

My county is mainly vanilla and contains many famous golf courses(guess which county that is!) and my edition of the Wapo didn't have it either. Obviously a case of niche hate propaganda. Fiendishly clever.
Angry Blue Planet | 11.21.04 - 6:22 pm | #

their website says: Our first edition has been distributed through area newspapers to more than five hundred thousand people. It is our goal to increase circulation to over one million quarterly. If you would like to be a part of this vision and/or be listed in our quarterly Partners Pages please read the information below.
amberglow | 11.21.04 - 8:29 pm | #

This is so late in the postings and I am so infrequent a poster, I doubt this will make a single ripple. But I can speculate that the sorts of arguments we have made here are, by and large, music to the ears of the repugs/neocons. And I have been guilty of such a post.

They seek to divide and conquer. Better we find common ground with those they seek to divide us from (no matter which "us" we are - they have framed an opposite).

I'm trying hard not to fall for their bullshit and to gain friends, not enemies. We have one big powerful enemy. (Well, it has its own separate parts, too - but if we think pro-Bush, that'll do.)

It's up to us to divide and conquer "them". They may not be as united, issue by issue, as they think.
sarah deere | 11.21.04 - 10:44 pm | #

My sharp-eyed friend adds,

"It might also be a good idea to ask the (public) Hylton High School why the good people of Grace Christian Church, the kindly, fun-lovin' (but not before marriage, and 'specially not man on man!) christians behind this fine publication, are allowed to use a public high school for their worship services. See the back cover."
jo miller | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 1:03 am | #

Hylton High School contact page

Back cover cutout
jo miller | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 1:17 am | #

Hylton High School administrative contacts

Back cover cutout
jo miller | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 1:21 am | #

Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 01:49:04 -0500
To: custarcm@pwcs.edu, DRAMIREZ@pwcs.edu
From: Jo Miller
Subject: Weekend activities at Hylton School

Dear Ms Custard and Ms Ramirez,

I wonder whether you can tell me why your school allows Grace Christian [sic] Church to hold their worship services at Hylton?

You may not be aware that this group is disseminating inflammatory anti-gay propaganda specifically targeted at African Americans, and that Hylton School's name and address are prominently displayed on the back cover of their hate pamphlet, which went out to all subscribers of the Washington Post this past Friday. (If you have not seen their advertising supplement in the Post, I can forward you a PDF copy.)

I'm certain that intolerance and discrimination are not values you want Hylton students to learn. In any case, a public school is not the proper place for a religious group to hold its church services.

I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for your time.

Yours sincerely,

Jo Miller

________________________________________________
"Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from racial, religious, gender, or ethnic discrimination." -Coretta Scott King, November 9, 2000
jo miller | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 2:02 am | #

What BothSides missed:

“The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice.”

— Martin Luther King, Jr.

+++++

“Gay and lesbian people have families, and their families should have legal protection, whether by marriage or civil union. A constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriages is a form of gay bashing and it would do nothing at all to protect traditional marriages.”

— Coretta Scott King (24 march 2004)

+++++

“Discrimination is wrong no matter who the victim is. There are no ‘special rights’ in America; we are all entitled to life, liberty and happiness’ pursuit.”

— Julian Bond, NAACP Chairperson, in a letter to members of Louisiana’s Legislative Black Caucus urging a vote against a state constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage (10 May 2004)

+++++

“We cannot keep turning our backs on gay and lesbian Americans. I have fought too hard and too long against discrimination based on race and color not to stand up against discrimination based on sexual orientation. I’ve heard the reasons for opposing civil marriage for same-sex couples. Cut through the distractions, and they stink of the same fear, hatred, and intolerance I have known in racism and in bigotry.”

Rep. John Lewis, D-Ga., a leader of the black civil rights movement, writing in the Boston Globe, Nov. 25, 2003. During the height of the Civil Rights Movement, from 1963 to 1966, Lewis was the Chairman of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC), which he helped form. SNCC was largely responsible for the sit-ins and other activities of students in the struggle for civil rights. Despite more that 40 arrests, physical attacks and serious injuries, John Lewis remained a devoted advocate of the philosophy of nonviolence.

+++++

“I would have hoped that all of us — no matter our color, gender, religious beliefs or socioeconomic status — would have learned that we cannot treat any of our brethren as second-class citizens. Separate-and-unequal just won’t play.”

— Kecia A. Cunningham is a Decatur City (Ga.) commissioner and a vice president of Wachovia. She is the among the few, if any, openly gay African-American elected officials in the Deep South. This is an excerpt from an opinion piece in the Atlanta Daily World, April 8, 2004.

+++++

“But amid the proselytizing, black ministers are overlooking the presence of gay men and women throughout black churches, said Archbishop Carl Bean, founder of Unity Fellowship Church of Los Angeles. Some of them, he added, are in highly visible positions, on deacon boards, in pulpits and playing the piano.

“Bean, 60, said he felt called to the ministry in 1982, when the AIDS epidemic was killing gay men of all races. ”Where were they?” he asked of the black clergy. ”The same place they had always been on sex: silent and hiding.”

“Bean became the face of black AIDS activism in Los Angeles in the 1980s. When black men died, he said, their mothers would call him. ”Can you bury my s
some_guy | 11.22.04 - 10:14 am | #

Oops! Too many characters. Sorry. Here's the rest:

“But amid the proselytizing, black ministers are overlooking the presence of gay men and women throughout black churches, said Archbishop Carl Bean, founder of Unity Fellowship Church of Los Angeles. Some of them, he added, are in highly visible positions, on deacon boards, in pulpits and playing the piano.

“Bean, 60, said he felt called to the ministry in 1982, when the AIDS epidemic was killing gay men of all races. ”Where were they?” he asked of the black clergy. ”The same place they had always been on sex: silent and hiding.”

“Bean became the face of black AIDS activism in Los Angeles in the 1980s. When black men died, he said, their mothers would call him. ”Can you bury my son?” he recalled them asking. ”My preacher won’t do it.”

“He founded Unity Fellowship Church of Christ in Los Angeles, taking John 3:16—”that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish”—as the bedrock of its belief. The church later expanded elsewhere.

“Bean said black ministers used the Bible as a weapon. ”It’s no different than what white fundamentalists did in the South when they took Scripture out of context to justify slavery,” Bean said. ”They would leave church, put on a hood, find a black person, kill them, take off the hood, go back to church and sing ’Amazing Grace.’”
some_guy | 11.22.04 - 10:16 am | #

As a STAUNCH Liberal Democrat I say ( in the Heinlien terms -- "What IS the HOO-HOO?"
IF the POST (or any other newspaper) had to fact check every ad -- and reject those that are NOT truthful -- There would be NO Auto ads --- Or any ads at all -- published in the paper.......
EVERY AD is a lie --- accept it and GROW UP!!!!!!!!
dedgeorge | Email | Homepage | 11.20.04 - 2:54 pm | #
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dedgeorge -

As a staunch liberal Democrat who has made a living writing copy for ads, I'd like to take this opportunity to tell you to go fuck yourself.

Not all ad writers are liars. Many of us have a very well-developed sense of right and wrong, and would refuse to work on an account that required us to lie.

So take your self-righteousness and shove it up your ass.
spencer | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 2:43 pm | #

Faith and reason are mutually exclusive.
RCSanders | 11.22.04 - 4:39 pm | #

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