I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
can i frist my own post?
can i frist my own post?
?
A person who has privileges to post articles does a lame ass thing like frist in the comments?
Atrios be baggin u when he gets home.
?
A person who has privileges to post articles does a lame ass thing like frist in the comments?
Atrios be baggin u when he gets home.
MEMRI are the band of goofs responsible for originating that erroneous "OBL threatens only states that vote for Der Chimperer" from the pre-election video. Big-time neocon tools, so "out there" that even fascist fronts like the Bradley Foundation gave up on funding them.
-
MEMRI are the band of goofs responsible for originating that erroneous "OBL threatens only states that vote for Der Chimperer" from the pre-election video. Big-time neocon tools, so "out there" that even fascist fronts like the Bradley Foundation gave up on funding them.
-
Two other main points from Cole:
I will add another criticism of MEMRI, which is that it systematically violates the intellectual property of Arab writers by appropriating their content without paying for it and storing them on its servers, and then claiming copyright in their work as translated! This is a shameful way of proceeding. Where the source articles are published in a country that is signatory to the major international copyright agreements, it may be illegal. All sites dealing in other languages do quote or translate from time to time, which falls under fair use. But MEMRI has a much more systematic set of appropriations going.
MEMRI has begun taking out blog ads. Since it can hardly go about threatening bloggers with lawsuits without violating the essential spirit of open discourse on the Web, it has forfeited any claim on our eyeballs. I urge all bloggers to decline advertisements from MEMRI until such time as Colonel Carmon withdraws his outrageous threat.
Two other main points from Cole:
I will add another criticism of MEMRI, which is that it systematically violates the intellectual property of Arab writers by appropriating their content without paying for it and storing them on its servers, and then claiming copyright in their work as translated! This is a shameful way of proceeding. Where the source articles are published in a country that is signatory to the major international copyright agreements, it may be illegal. All sites dealing in other languages do quote or translate from time to time, which falls under fair use. But MEMRI has a much more systematic set of appropriations going.
MEMRI has begun taking out blog ads. Since it can hardly go about threatening bloggers with lawsuits without violating the essential spirit of open discourse on the Web, it has forfeited any claim on our eyeballs. I urge all bloggers to decline advertisements from MEMRI until such time as Colonel Carmon withdraws his outrageous threat.
Intimidation borne of desperation.
You can smell the perspiration.
Intimidation borne of desperation.
You can smell the perspiration.
Upyernoz, good work, frist if you will: this ain't exactly the Olympic Games. Just have fun!
My letter of protest under my far more respectable professional header goes out tomorrow. MEMRI is being thuggish. Their threat to Professor Cole is outrageous.
Upyernoz, good work, frist if you will: this ain't exactly the Olympic Games. Just have fun!
My letter of protest under my far more respectable professional header goes out tomorrow. MEMRI is being thuggish. Their threat to Professor Cole is outrageous.
Sir,
As a Jew and a supporter of the State of Israel, which stands for democracy, free speech and free academic inquiry, I find MEMRI's threat of a lawsuit against Prof. Cole and the University of Michigan shameful.
Attempting to silence one's critics with vague accusations of libel instead of engaging in debate is essentially anti-democratic.
Since the ultimate defense against libel is the truth, why doesn't MEMRI simply release the amount and sources of its funding, in the interest of rebutting Prof. Cole's figure if it was wrong, and in the interest of democratic transparency which MEMRI so obviously cherishes?
Sincerely,
Sir,
As a Jew and a supporter of the State of Israel, which stands for democracy, free speech and free academic inquiry, I find MEMRI's threat of a lawsuit against Prof. Cole and the University of Michigan shameful.
Attempting to silence one's critics with vague accusations of libel instead of engaging in debate is essentially anti-democratic.
Since the ultimate defense against libel is the truth, why doesn't MEMRI simply release the amount and sources of its funding, in the interest of rebutting Prof. Cole's figure if it was wrong, and in the interest of democratic transparency which MEMRI so obviously cherishes?
Sincerely,
My letter of protest under my far more respectable professional header goes out tomorrow. MEMRI is being thuggish. Their threat to Professor Cole is outrageous.
Same goes.
My letter of protest under my far more respectable professional header goes out tomorrow. MEMRI is being thuggish. Their threat to Professor Cole is outrageous.
Same goes.
Central Scrutinizer
I am coming to the conclusion the right and its allies are in a quiet but firm panic. Their house is slowly sinking into the swamp they created.
Central Scrutinizer
I am coming to the conclusion the right and its allies are in a quiet but firm panic. Their house is slowly sinking into the swamp they created.
OT,
Carrot or stick?
Powell: U.S. Open to Eventually Restoring Ties with Iran
Powell's appeasing tone came after Iran on Monday met international demands to suspending uranium enrichment activities, which in part have motivated U.S. accusations Tehran is pursuing a nuclear bomb.
OT,
Carrot or stick?
Powell: U.S. Open to Eventually Restoring Ties with Iran
Powell's appeasing tone came after Iran on Monday met international demands to suspending uranium enrichment activities, which in part have motivated U.S. accusations Tehran is pursuing a nuclear bomb.
Use that megaphone dude!!
Use that megaphone dude!!
Dumb question, why are we wasting letters to them, why not to the press? Look these folks are trying to stifle freedom of expression. They are picking on this one little ol poor professor who voiced his opinion....
Dumb question, why are we wasting letters to them, why not to the press? Look these folks are trying to stifle freedom of expression. They are picking on this one little ol poor professor who voiced his opinion....
hey! i never claimed to be anything other than lame-ass.
official lawyer answer: i didn't technically frist. i just asked a question.
hey! i never claimed to be anything other than lame-ass.
official lawyer answer: i didn't technically frist. i just asked a question.
I don't agree with MEMRI's lawsuit, or "SLAPP" lawsuits in general, but I think accusing MEMRI of cherry-picking is stupid. The point isn't to translate EVERY thing written in the Arabic-language media, it's to translate noteworthy, out of the ordinary things, especially those we find disturbing. Accusing them of cherry-picking is like getting mad that newspapers publish more stories about people getting shot, than about people who lock their guns in safes every night. One is newsworthy, the other is not.
This, from Juan Cole, is particularly idiotic:
"On more than one occasion I have seen, say, a bigotted Arabic article translated by MEMRI and when I went to the source on the Web, found that it was on the same op-ed page with other, moderate articles arguing for tolerance. These latter were not translated."
Can you imagine if the New York Times published articles by David Duke types hard-core bashing black people, even once a month or so. (say 4 op-eds/day, 30 days/month, this would be only 1 out of 120 op-eds), and then claimed this was ok because he was sharing the page with tolerant columnists krugman, dowd, etc? Do you think people in other countries would be "cherry-picking" by speaking out about it?
I don't agree with MEMRI's lawsuit, or "SLAPP" lawsuits in general, but I think accusing MEMRI of cherry-picking is stupid. The point isn't to translate EVERY thing written in the Arabic-language media, it's to translate noteworthy, out of the ordinary things, especially those we find disturbing. Accusing them of cherry-picking is like getting mad that newspapers publish more stories about people getting shot, than about people who lock their guns in safes every night. One is newsworthy, the other is not.
This, from Juan Cole, is particularly idiotic:
"On more than one occasion I have seen, say, a bigotted Arabic article translated by MEMRI and when I went to the source on the Web, found that it was on the same op-ed page with other, moderate articles arguing for tolerance. These latter were not translated."
Can you imagine if the New York Times published articles by David Duke types hard-core bashing black people, even once a month or so. (say 4 op-eds/day, 30 days/month, this would be only 1 out of 120 op-eds), and then claimed this was ok because he was sharing the page with tolerant columnists krugman, dowd, etc? Do you think people in other countries would be "cherry-picking" by speaking out about it?
Dumb question, why are we wasting letters to them, why not to the press?
Good point.
I'm copying my letter to the Chronicle of Higher Education, and I encourage anyone else here with an academic affiliation to do the same.
Dumb question, why are we wasting letters to them, why not to the press?
Good point.
I'm copying my letter to the Chronicle of Higher Education, and I encourage anyone else here with an academic affiliation to do the same.
Awww Juan Cole, who has repeatedly and falsely accused critics of being 'likud operatives' is crying foul? cry me a river.
Awww Juan Cole, who has repeatedly and falsely accused critics of being 'likud operatives' is crying foul? cry me a river.
Well, look at you, Noz, hot stuff on Atrios' blog. LOL having fun?
Well, look at you, Noz, hot stuff on Atrios' blog. LOL having fun?
Their house is slowly sinking into the swamp they created.
EkCenTrik,
That's what I'm thinking too. Check out my post at 9:50. Is that curious or what?
Their house is slowly sinking into the swamp they created.
EkCenTrik,
That's what I'm thinking too. Check out my post at 9:50. Is that curious or what?
A person who has privileges to post articles does a lame ass thing like frist in the comments? - give it to im this time. That shit be crackin me up.
A person who has privileges to post articles does a lame ass thing like frist in the comments? - give it to im this time. That shit be crackin me up.
Yet another case destined to NOT be mentioned in support of tort "reform".
Three words Sharon vs. Times.
Yet another case destined to NOT be mentioned in support of tort "reform".
Three words Sharon vs. Times.
Point of information.
The director of Memri is married to guess who?
And no it's not Cheney.
Point of information.
The director of Memri is married to guess who?
And no it's not Cheney.
The point isn't to translate EVERY thing written in the Arabic-language media, it's to translate noteworthy, out of the ordinary things, especially those we find disturbing.
Yeah, it's almost like MEMRI is cherry picking articles in the Arab press.
The point isn't to translate EVERY thing written in the Arabic-language media, it's to translate noteworthy, out of the ordinary things, especially those we find disturbing.
Yeah, it's almost like MEMRI is cherry picking articles in the Arab press.
lisa,
it is cherry picking when (for example) you post an article about how the anniversary of 9/11 is depicted in the arab press and only translate the negative articles when there are other points of view being published. MEMRI regularly reports the "reaction in the arab media to ____". it's simply dishonest if they disregard the bits that don't support their point.
lisa,
it is cherry picking when (for example) you post an article about how the anniversary of 9/11 is depicted in the arab press and only translate the negative articles when there are other points of view being published. MEMRI regularly reports the "reaction in the arab media to ____". it's simply dishonest if they disregard the bits that don't support their point.
Central S
What next Castro gets a night in the Lincoln Room?
Central S
What next Castro gets a night in the Lincoln Room?
Old Hat:
All organizations that criticize media "cherry-pick". NOW criticizes articles / incidents / statements by officials that they find sexist, the NAACP criticizes those they find racist. The point of an organization that criticizes politicians or media or academia or whatever is to CRITICIZE not to pat on the back everytime they don't screw up.
Old Hat:
All organizations that criticize media "cherry-pick". NOW criticizes articles / incidents / statements by officials that they find sexist, the NAACP criticizes those they find racist. The point of an organization that criticizes politicians or media or academia or whatever is to CRITICIZE not to pat on the back everytime they don't screw up.
El loco is back! Banned from the webmaster for several months, I'm back and with seething vengeance. By the way upyernoz, I did my civic duty and contacted memri on your sound advice supporting Professor Cole.
El loco is back! Banned from the webmaster for several months, I'm back and with seething vengeance. By the way upyernoz, I did my civic duty and contacted memri on your sound advice supporting Professor Cole.
Old Hat, do you find Atrios to be 'cherry picking' the right wing media with his posts? Does this 'ipso facto' make him a Communist party operative? Should we know exactly how much Duncan Black is paid for his efforts, and guess at a ridiculously large number if he doesnt tell us?
WHo again is the real mccarthyite here?
Old Hat, do you find Atrios to be 'cherry picking' the right wing media with his posts? Does this 'ipso facto' make him a Communist party operative? Should we know exactly how much Duncan Black is paid for his efforts, and guess at a ridiculously large number if he doesnt tell us?
WHo again is the real mccarthyite here?
Furthermore, Lisa, if MEMRI was serious about supporting reform in Arab states, which it is not, its goal would be to give a voice to Arab moderates and reformers in the West.
MEMRI does not do this.
Why does MEMRI's modus operandi smack of an anti-Arab propaganda factory?
Furthermore, Lisa, if MEMRI was serious about supporting reform in Arab states, which it is not, its goal would be to give a voice to Arab moderates and reformers in the West.
MEMRI does not do this.
Why does MEMRI's modus operandi smack of an anti-Arab propaganda factory?
WE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING!
WE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING!
"UPYERNOZ" IS NOT US!
WE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING!
WE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING!
"UPYERNOZ" IS NOT US!
'its goal would be to give a voice to Arab moderates and reformers in the West.
MEMRI does not do this. '
A complete fabrication. DO you read the MEMRI page? DId you read their letter to Cole?
'its goal would be to give a voice to Arab moderates and reformers in the West.
MEMRI does not do this. '
A complete fabrication. DO you read the MEMRI page? DId you read their letter to Cole?
WHo again is the real mccarthyite here?
MesaMan | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 10:00 pm | #.
When was the last time Black threatened to sue a critic?
WHo again is the real mccarthyite here?
MesaMan | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 10:00 pm | #.
When was the last time Black threatened to sue a critic?
Point of information.
The director of Memri is married to guess who?
And no it's not Cheney.
Oh, it's just getting too incestous in this administration!
Point of information.
The director of Memri is married to guess who?
And no it's not Cheney.
Oh, it's just getting too incestous in this administration!
Old Hat, do you find Atrios to be 'cherry picking' the right wing media with his posts?
WHo again is the real mccarthyite here?
Is Atrios filing lawsuits against everyone and anyone who criticizes him or calls him, variously, a "faggot" or a "conspiracy theorist"? Does Atrios have a phalanx of lawyers and lobbyists in cold storage in his basement? Does he have millions of dollars?
Of course not.
Atrios is a dude with a dial up connection and a piece of free software.
If one guy is this threatening to the right wing noise machine, then your team has a serious, serious problem.
Old Hat, do you find Atrios to be 'cherry picking' the right wing media with his posts?
WHo again is the real mccarthyite here?
Is Atrios filing lawsuits against everyone and anyone who criticizes him or calls him, variously, a "faggot" or a "conspiracy theorist"? Does Atrios have a phalanx of lawyers and lobbyists in cold storage in his basement? Does he have millions of dollars?
Of course not.
Atrios is a dude with a dial up connection and a piece of free software.
If one guy is this threatening to the right wing noise machine, then your team has a serious, serious problem.
Cherry picking is the rule instead of the exception. There aren't many places that don't do it. The problem is that nearly our entire media have the same point of view.
There is a question that could be asked, if this is the viewpoint held by the vast majority of Arabs; one, what does that mean for policy, two, what can be done to change it.
If this way of looking at the problem was going to get good results it would have decades ago. It's just an invitation to support the arms industy and their clients. A guarantee that more Jews and Arabs will end up dead.
Cherry picking is the rule instead of the exception. There aren't many places that don't do it. The problem is that nearly our entire media have the same point of view.
There is a question that could be asked, if this is the viewpoint held by the vast majority of Arabs; one, what does that mean for policy, two, what can be done to change it.
If this way of looking at the problem was going to get good results it would have decades ago. It's just an invitation to support the arms industy and their clients. A guarantee that more Jews and Arabs will end up dead.
Cherry-picking is wrong. I remember a time when you could actually be educated by the news.
Cherry-picking is wrong. I remember a time when you could actually be educated by the news.
*lol* I guess by MesaMan's definition, The Financial Times are Communist Operatives for openly criticising the moronic messes of the Busheviks proffered as fiscal policy. *lol*
*lol* I guess by MesaMan's definition, The Financial Times are Communist Operatives for openly criticising the moronic messes of the Busheviks proffered as fiscal policy. *lol*
Comparing Atrios to MEMRI would require-
-some kind of "silencing" sought by Atrios of...anyone. All we remember Atrios seeking in the way of "silencing" was that lies be pointed out as such, that people like Russert and Carlson not be allowed to spew outright disproven lies as accepted conventional wisdom.
-a sort of linguistic monopoly. MEMRI is, like the pogromming Talmudic translators, specifically seeking an audience that is willing to believe the worst and unable to fact-check. While Limpballs and Savage Weiner may have taught us to expect horrors, we don't have that on Atrios' word alone.
-a record of lying/failure (impossible for Atrios with the instant fact-checking of the hyperlink, but perpetually possible for MEMRI with widespread ignorance of Arabic).
By the way, if you're really interested in a survey of Arabic extremist propaganda, Feral House publishes Adam Parfrey's excellent "Extreme Islam," which actually includes nastiness from all three major regional religions as well as good background, a glossary and a wide sampling.
Comparing Atrios to MEMRI would require-
-some kind of "silencing" sought by Atrios of...anyone. All we remember Atrios seeking in the way of "silencing" was that lies be pointed out as such, that people like Russert and Carlson not be allowed to spew outright disproven lies as accepted conventional wisdom.
-a sort of linguistic monopoly. MEMRI is, like the pogromming Talmudic translators, specifically seeking an audience that is willing to believe the worst and unable to fact-check. While Limpballs and Savage Weiner may have taught us to expect horrors, we don't have that on Atrios' word alone.
-a record of lying/failure (impossible for Atrios with the instant fact-checking of the hyperlink, but perpetually possible for MEMRI with widespread ignorance of Arabic).
By the way, if you're really interested in a survey of Arabic extremist propaganda, Feral House publishes Adam Parfrey's excellent "Extreme Islam," which actually includes nastiness from all three major regional religions as well as good background, a glossary and a wide sampling.
DO you read the MEMRI page?
Did you bother to read MEMRI during the run up to the Iraq war? It was a non-stop propaganda mill. These guys are a political pump and dump operation for the Bush boys. If you don't understand how a shop like MEMRI works, you laughably naive.
DO you read the MEMRI page?
Did you bother to read MEMRI during the run up to the Iraq war? It was a non-stop propaganda mill. These guys are a political pump and dump operation for the Bush boys. If you don't understand how a shop like MEMRI works, you laughably naive.
K and Y, hang in there!
There is a way out!
and, yes we are truly screwed!
K and Y, hang in there!
There is a way out!
and, yes we are truly screwed!
re: the cherry picking issue
as far as i am concerned it's an issue of how MEMRI presents what it rights. if Atrios claimed to survey the entire landscape of public opinion of the u.s. but only published liberal things, then yes, that would be cherry picking. if the NAACP said the american media is thoroughly racist and then exerpts the articles that are, but ignores those that are not, then that would be cherry picking.
all MEMRI has to do to stop cherry picking is to stop claiming to portray what "the arab world" is saying.
re: the cherry picking issue
as far as i am concerned it's an issue of how MEMRI presents what it rights. if Atrios claimed to survey the entire landscape of public opinion of the u.s. but only published liberal things, then yes, that would be cherry picking. if the NAACP said the american media is thoroughly racist and then exerpts the articles that are, but ignores those that are not, then that would be cherry picking.
all MEMRI has to do to stop cherry picking is to stop claiming to portray what "the arab world" is saying.
Attempting to silence one's critics with vague accusations of libel instead of engaging in debate is essentially anti-democratic.
Cole has it right. The fact that there is no legal substance to the threat is what marks it as a SLAPP suit. But it goes beyond that by threatening to include in its action Cole's employer
As such, we demand that you retract the false statements you have made about MEMRI. If you will not do so, we will be forced to pursue legal action against you personally and against the University of Michigan, which the article identifies you as an employee of. We hope this will not be necessary. Sincerely, [signed] Yigal Carmon
This is an attack on free speech and academic freedom. I have sent my letter to memri@memri.org
Attempting to silence one's critics with vague accusations of libel instead of engaging in debate is essentially anti-democratic.
Cole has it right. The fact that there is no legal substance to the threat is what marks it as a SLAPP suit. But it goes beyond that by threatening to include in its action Cole's employer
As such, we demand that you retract the false statements you have made about MEMRI. If you will not do so, we will be forced to pursue legal action against you personally and against the University of Michigan, which the article identifies you as an employee of. We hope this will not be necessary. Sincerely, [signed] Yigal Carmon
This is an attack on free speech and academic freedom. I have sent my letter to memri@memri.org
Monica A - " Oh, it's just getting too incestous in this administration!"
Rather like a court, no?
Monica A - " Oh, it's just getting too incestous in this administration!"
Rather like a court, no?
MEMRI, an organization I am mostly familiar with because of its inaccurate arabic translations
I followed all your links and saw no examples of inaccurate translations. In fact, I saw no translations of any type.
Where is the correct translation so I can compare it with MEMRI's erroneous one!?
MEMRI, an organization I am mostly familiar with because of its inaccurate arabic translations
I followed all your links and saw no examples of inaccurate translations. In fact, I saw no translations of any type.
Where is the correct translation so I can compare it with MEMRI's erroneous one!?
Why polite? These people are fanatical Likkudniks draped in "respectable" academic clothing. I have no time for these people.
Give it to them full force.
Why polite? These people are fanatical Likkudniks draped in "respectable" academic clothing. I have no time for these people.
Give it to them full force.
The tactic itself is insulting. Think of the hundred "Aryan physicists" Hitler threw together to attack Einstein as a quack, and Einstein's response that the way science works, you don't need a hundred people; if you have any truth to your claim (or proof of untruth to another's), all you'd need would be one. If MEMRI had a real case, they'd already be in court, and if they had a real academic case they'd take it to the people in the flat hats.
The tactic itself is insulting. Think of the hundred "Aryan physicists" Hitler threw together to attack Einstein as a quack, and Einstein's response that the way science works, you don't need a hundred people; if you have any truth to your claim (or proof of untruth to another's), all you'd need would be one. If MEMRI had a real case, they'd already be in court, and if they had a real academic case they'd take it to the people in the flat hats.
No, Tom, but using Cole's logic perhaps they would be. COle has a nasty habit of referring to all non-left-wing Israelis as Likud or Mossad operatives (nb martin krameR), which could be confused for factual inaccuracy or even libel by somewhat more critical readers.
sorry for confusing any of you for one of them. It won't happen again.
No, Tom, but using Cole's logic perhaps they would be. COle has a nasty habit of referring to all non-left-wing Israelis as Likud or Mossad operatives (nb martin krameR), which could be confused for factual inaccuracy or even libel by somewhat more critical readers.
sorry for confusing any of you for one of them. It won't happen again.
Why polite? These people are fanatical Likkudniks draped in "respectable" academic clothing. I have no time for these people.
Give it to them full force.
No, be polite.
Why polite? These people are fanatical Likkudniks draped in "respectable" academic clothing. I have no time for these people.
Give it to them full force.
No, be polite.
I followed all your links and saw no examples of inaccurate translations. In fact, I saw no translations of any type.
To put it as bluntly as possible, MEMRI is being highly disingenuous to claim that Osama bin Laden supposedly was saying that he would attack American states which voted for Bush but not those which voted for Kerry.
But as far as a full transcript of the piece referred to writ in blood and witnessed by seven hobbits signing in red ink, no, all he provided was three or four trolls.
I followed all your links and saw no examples of inaccurate translations. In fact, I saw no translations of any type.
To put it as bluntly as possible, MEMRI is being highly disingenuous to claim that Osama bin Laden supposedly was saying that he would attack American states which voted for Bush but not those which voted for Kerry.
But as far as a full transcript of the piece referred to writ in blood and witnessed by seven hobbits signing in red ink, no, all he provided was three or four trolls.
'Likkudniks '
">better term needed.
'Likkudniks '
">better term needed.
COle has a nasty habit of referring to all non-left-wing Israelis as Likud or Mossad operatives (nb martin krameR), which could be confused for factual inaccuracy or even libel by somewhat more critical readers.
Above you compared Black to Memri.
Look at it this way. Black never presents himself as anything other than a pro-Kerry, liberal partisan. That's his position. Take it or leave it.
Memri tries to portray itself as an "objective" organization with no political agenda. If they presented themselves as Bush partisans, then you'd have a point.
COle has a nasty habit of referring to all non-left-wing Israelis as Likud or Mossad operatives (nb martin krameR), which could be confused for factual inaccuracy or even libel by somewhat more critical readers.
Above you compared Black to Memri.
Look at it this way. Black never presents himself as anything other than a pro-Kerry, liberal partisan. That's his position. Take it or leave it.
Memri tries to portray itself as an "objective" organization with no political agenda. If they presented themselves as Bush partisans, then you'd have a point.
Be polite because these people are like fucking Scientologists, and as soon as your tone drops below Honor and Respect and your countenance shifts from what Germans like to see on their Slavic neighbor's faces, it will be seized and held up as proof that America in 2004 is Nuremburg in 1937. And also because there is no advantage in venting to them, and it will shame the rascals tro see how adults settle disputes. But also because they will fuck you as soon as they see an opening. That is after all the central issue. Norman Finkelstein completed his work at Princeton but couldn't receive his degree properly simply because of the hue and cry from people not only disagreeing with his politics but feeling strongly that his academic merit should be forgotten and his career flushed because of them. He's since recovered and is teaching at DuPaul in Illinois, but that's kind of an example of what they do: make all kinds of noise and screw with lives, like a major corporation trying to silence critics--and the whole thing is unfairly stacked agaist any little people who decide to give them lip. Ever seen Silkwood?
Be polite because these people are like fucking Scientologists, and as soon as your tone drops below Honor and Respect and your countenance shifts from what Germans like to see on their Slavic neighbor's faces, it will be seized and held up as proof that America in 2004 is Nuremburg in 1937. And also because there is no advantage in venting to them, and it will shame the rascals tro see how adults settle disputes. But also because they will fuck you as soon as they see an opening. That is after all the central issue. Norman Finkelstein completed his work at Princeton but couldn't receive his degree properly simply because of the hue and cry from people not only disagreeing with his politics but feeling strongly that his academic merit should be forgotten and his career flushed because of them. He's since recovered and is teaching at DuPaul in Illinois, but that's kind of an example of what they do: make all kinds of noise and screw with lives, like a major corporation trying to silence critics--and the whole thing is unfairly stacked agaist any little people who decide to give them lip. Ever seen Silkwood?
"Mesa-Man" has got himself a little anti-Cole blog going here
Take a look, if you're in the mood for a plethora of ineffable insinuations.
"Mesa-Man" has got himself a little anti-Cole blog going here
Take a look, if you're in the mood for a plethora of ineffable insinuations.
'Likkudniks '
">better term needed.
MesaMan | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 10:21 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Is the careless use of the term "Likudnik" really any different from the leftist use of the terms "Republicrats" or "Kerrycrats"?
You can imagine an anti-semitic agenda behind it if you like but you're far from proving the point.
All it is is a generic term for "pro-Israel right-winger" the way "Kerrycrat" is a generic term for "establisment Democrat".
'Likkudniks '
">better term needed.
MesaMan | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 10:21 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Is the careless use of the term "Likudnik" really any different from the leftist use of the terms "Republicrats" or "Kerrycrats"?
You can imagine an anti-semitic agenda behind it if you like but you're far from proving the point.
All it is is a generic term for "pro-Israel right-winger" the way "Kerrycrat" is a generic term for "establisment Democrat".
I followed all your links and saw no examples of inaccurate translations.
go to the abu aardvark link. AA himself is an arabic speaker and explains how the MEMRI translation of the last bin laden video was inaccurate.
(full disclosure: i am a third year student of arabic and made a lame-assed attempt to translate bin laden's last message myself. i made it part-way through, looking up every other word or so before i called it quits. however, in my meager understanding AA is right in his discussion of "wilayet" vs. "dawla"--at least that's what my wehr says)
I followed all your links and saw no examples of inaccurate translations.
go to the abu aardvark link. AA himself is an arabic speaker and explains how the MEMRI translation of the last bin laden video was inaccurate.
(full disclosure: i am a third year student of arabic and made a lame-assed attempt to translate bin laden's last message myself. i made it part-way through, looking up every other word or so before i called it quits. however, in my meager understanding AA is right in his discussion of "wilayet" vs. "dawla"--at least that's what my wehr says)
MesaMa--
ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzz...
MesaMa--
ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzz...
There are a few criticisms of MEMRI here, and they can be separated. Cole's criticism that they "cherry-pick" is pretty silly, and struck me as so before I read the posts on this thread. In this sense, Lisa's right that MEMRI is not that much different from Atrios and many other bloggers.
I do think the ceast-and-desist letter or whatever you want to call it to Cole was unnecessary and out of line. In that sense, they are very different from Atrios.
I don't understand why MEMRI has to be exactly like Atrios in every way in order for us to acknowledge that the "cherry-picking" accusation doesn't make much sense.
There are a few criticisms of MEMRI here, and they can be separated. Cole's criticism that they "cherry-pick" is pretty silly, and struck me as so before I read the posts on this thread. In this sense, Lisa's right that MEMRI is not that much different from Atrios and many other bloggers.
I do think the ceast-and-desist letter or whatever you want to call it to Cole was unnecessary and out of line. In that sense, they are very different from Atrios.
I don't understand why MEMRI has to be exactly like Atrios in every way in order for us to acknowledge that the "cherry-picking" accusation doesn't make much sense.
no translations
down in the "trackbacks" there are some links to full transcripts.
no translations
down in the "trackbacks" there are some links to full transcripts.
kei & yuri, do you speak arabic and with precisely which MEMRI translations do you take issue?
kei & yuri, do you speak arabic and with precisely which MEMRI translations do you take issue?
She also cofounded with Yigal Carmon, a former colonel in the Israeli military intelligence, the Middle East Media and Research Institute (MEMRI). According to Jim Lobe, MEMRI specializes in translating and distributing "particularly virulent anti-U.S. and anti-Israel articles appearing in the Arab press to key U.S. media and policymakers." (
According to her Hudson Institute bio, Wurmser "helped to educate policymakers about the Palestinian Authority two-track approach to 'negotiating peace' with Israel: calling for peace in the English press and with western policymakers while inciting hatred and violence through official Arab language media."
Although it describes itself as "non-partisan," MEMRI--which has offices in London, Washington, Jerusalem, and Berlin--has frequently been accused of being nothing more than a propaganda outfit of Israeli intelligence. According the Guardian, which dug up deleted pages from MEMRI's web site through the internet archive, "Retrieving another now-deleted page from the archives of Memri's website also throws up a list of its staff. Of the six people named, three--including [Yigal] Carmon--are described as having worked for Israeli intelligence. Among the other three, one served in the Israeli army's Northern Command Ordnance Corps, one has an academic background, and the sixth is a former stand-up comedian." (10)
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/i...m/wurmser-
m.php
She also cofounded with Yigal Carmon, a former colonel in the Israeli military intelligence, the Middle East Media and Research Institute (MEMRI). According to Jim Lobe, MEMRI specializes in translating and distributing "particularly virulent anti-U.S. and anti-Israel articles appearing in the Arab press to key U.S. media and policymakers." (
According to her Hudson Institute bio, Wurmser "helped to educate policymakers about the Palestinian Authority two-track approach to 'negotiating peace' with Israel: calling for peace in the English press and with western policymakers while inciting hatred and violence through official Arab language media."
Although it describes itself as "non-partisan," MEMRI--which has offices in London, Washington, Jerusalem, and Berlin--has frequently been accused of being nothing more than a propaganda outfit of Israeli intelligence. According the Guardian, which dug up deleted pages from MEMRI's web site through the internet archive, "Retrieving another now-deleted page from the archives of Memri's website also throws up a list of its staff. Of the six people named, three--including [Yigal] Carmon--are described as having worked for Israeli intelligence. Among the other three, one served in the Israeli army's Northern Command Ordnance Corps, one has an academic background, and the sixth is a former stand-up comedian." (10)
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/i...m/wurmser-
m.php
dave in nyc: what if we told you that Israelis were murderous racist chauvenist thugs who want to conquer the Levant, and then "backed it up" with quotations, purportedly from the overall mainstream Hebrew press, but actually just from from Meir Kahane and Dr Goldstein and their kind?
dave in nyc: what if we told you that Israelis were murderous racist chauvenist thugs who want to conquer the Levant, and then "backed it up" with quotations, purportedly from the overall mainstream Hebrew press, but actually just from from Meir Kahane and Dr Goldstein and their kind?
"Likudnik" From what I read the Israeli press is a lot freer than the U.S. press in discussing Likud or any other party. Are they anti-Semites?
The attempt to make condemnation of Likud out of bounds seems to be another facet of the "neocon" con of last winter.
It's a really bad idea to make a political party of a self-chosen bunch of ideological hacks for profit a syonym for an entire ethnic or religous group. THAT'S what leads to bigotry. I'd certainly not like it if Republican became another name for American.
Besides, it's a cheap trick to protect the indefensible from the truth about it.
"Likudnik" From what I read the Israeli press is a lot freer than the U.S. press in discussing Likud or any other party. Are they anti-Semites?
The attempt to make condemnation of Likud out of bounds seems to be another facet of the "neocon" con of last winter.
It's a really bad idea to make a political party of a self-chosen bunch of ideological hacks for profit a syonym for an entire ethnic or religous group. THAT'S what leads to bigotry. I'd certainly not like it if Republican became another name for American.
Besides, it's a cheap trick to protect the indefensible from the truth about it.
I don't know. What if you did that?
I don't know. What if you did that?
The letter is risible; this really would be laughed out of court, though I would be amazed if this were really a genuine legal threat and not a rather buffoonish attempt at intimidation.
MEMRI is NOT A SERIOUS ACADEMIC ORGANIZATION.
How do I know this?
Because I read the letter they sent to Juan Cole.
This is a simple statement of fact and not really subject to debate.
The letter is risible; this really would be laughed out of court, though I would be amazed if this were really a genuine legal threat and not a rather buffoonish attempt at intimidation.
MEMRI is NOT A SERIOUS ACADEMIC ORGANIZATION.
How do I know this?
Because I read the letter they sent to Juan Cole.
This is a simple statement of fact and not really subject to debate.
Oh, and I like the part where MEMRI 'translates' the articles, paying no copyright fees, then copyrights those translations! And I've been harping at my kid for plagiarizing schoolwork using the 'net... what a dumbass...
Oh, and I like the part where MEMRI 'translates' the articles, paying no copyright fees, then copyrights those translations! And I've been harping at my kid for plagiarizing schoolwork using the 'net... what a dumbass...
dave in nyc: what if we told you that Israelis were murderous racist chauvenist thugs who want to conquer the Levant, and then "backed it up" with quotations, purportedly from the overall mainstream Hebrew press, but actually just from from Meir Kahane and Dr Goldstein and their kind?
kei & yuri | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 10:31 pm | #
Or if you tried to pass off these photos as somehow represenative of Israelis in general.
dave in nyc: what if we told you that Israelis were murderous racist chauvenist thugs who want to conquer the Levant, and then "backed it up" with quotations, purportedly from the overall mainstream Hebrew press, but actually just from from Meir Kahane and Dr Goldstein and their kind?
kei & yuri | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 10:31 pm | #
Or if you tried to pass off these photos as somehow represenative of Israelis in general.
"what if we told you that Israelis were murderous racist chauvenist thugs who want to conquer the Levant"
requires very little imagination.
"what if we told you that Israelis were murderous racist chauvenist thugs who want to conquer the Levant"
requires very little imagination.
'This is a simple statement of fact and not really subject to debate.'
Oh well that settles it. Cole has very little to worry about, obviously, and any letter writing campaign is wasted effort.
'This is a simple statement of fact and not really subject to debate.'
Oh well that settles it. Cole has very little to worry about, obviously, and any letter writing campaign is wasted effort.
Plateauboy: why do we need to speak Arabic to disapprove of translations condemned by numerous experts far more qualified than we'd get in years? Do you not remember those White House/Pentagon translations where Bin Laden said exactly what the RNC wanted him to...and then they showed the tape to Arabs and "external" experts and nobody outside of a government job accepted the official version, and usually they'd go so far as to say the tapes were unintelligible?
(and actually we started and stopped and have now put it off for a while. Of course we suppose you know what "dhimmi" means and have the "filistiyn mush hawn" T-shirt.)
Plateauboy: why do we need to speak Arabic to disapprove of translations condemned by numerous experts far more qualified than we'd get in years? Do you not remember those White House/Pentagon translations where Bin Laden said exactly what the RNC wanted him to...and then they showed the tape to Arabs and "external" experts and nobody outside of a government job accepted the official version, and usually they'd go so far as to say the tapes were unintelligible?
(and actually we started and stopped and have now put it off for a while. Of course we suppose you know what "dhimmi" means and have the "filistiyn mush hawn" T-shirt.)
I wasn't aware of these guys until the NYP story about Osama's Red State Threat. Going to the about us part of their site and then to the "quotes about us" you will find:
It is to the translations circulated by the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) that we owe what we have now learned about what appears in Arabic-language newspapers and television broadcasts, as well as what is preached by Islamic clerics in their weekly sermons."
- September 9, 2002, Commentary, Norman Podhoretz
Enuff said.
I wasn't aware of these guys until the NYP story about Osama's Red State Threat. Going to the about us part of their site and then to the "quotes about us" you will find:
It is to the translations circulated by the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) that we owe what we have now learned about what appears in Arabic-language newspapers and television broadcasts, as well as what is preached by Islamic clerics in their weekly sermons."
- September 9, 2002, Commentary, Norman Podhoretz
Enuff said.
Oh, and I like the part where MEMRI 'translates' the articles, paying no copyright fees, then copyrights those translations!
That really is a grotesque breach of academic practice, whatever the legal justification for it. For MEMRI to be lecturing others about ethics while doing this is pretty amazing.
Oh, and I like the part where MEMRI 'translates' the articles, paying no copyright fees, then copyrights those translations!
That really is a grotesque breach of academic practice, whatever the legal justification for it. For MEMRI to be lecturing others about ethics while doing this is pretty amazing.
Mesa-Mans blog sure is written as if someone is paying him. More than anything else his technique is to insinuate that there is just something wrong with anyone (he has been slapping at Prof. LeVine, too) who might have "Arabist" (as he terms it) sympathies.
Between the two, he doesn't come close to Cole in terms of giving me the impression he is writing with a broad outlook, and a concern for the people involved. He's all snark, bark, and no bite.
Mesa-Mans blog sure is written as if someone is paying him. More than anything else his technique is to insinuate that there is just something wrong with anyone (he has been slapping at Prof. LeVine, too) who might have "Arabist" (as he terms it) sympathies.
Between the two, he doesn't come close to Cole in terms of giving me the impression he is writing with a broad outlook, and a concern for the people involved. He's all snark, bark, and no bite.
Dave, MEMRI is not blogging a checkable media with a declared loyalty in observation of certain parties: they claim to be introducing non-Arabic speakers to what the Arabic mainstream really is about. When they purport to do that and return with Sharon's irrational camel salesmen who "will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS hate us" and who cannot be relied upon or negotiated with, and Cole and other experts can point to other voices, that is cherry-picking. Has Atrios ever tried to sell you on the evil filthy Americans who can only orgasm when bombing children?
Dave, MEMRI is not blogging a checkable media with a declared loyalty in observation of certain parties: they claim to be introducing non-Arabic speakers to what the Arabic mainstream really is about. When they purport to do that and return with Sharon's irrational camel salesmen who "will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS hate us" and who cannot be relied upon or negotiated with, and Cole and other experts can point to other voices, that is cherry-picking. Has Atrios ever tried to sell you on the evil filthy Americans who can only orgasm when bombing children?
Where has MEMRI said anything about how the racist stuff they translate represents 'Arabs in general' or 'Muslims in general?" or even anything close?
You would be quite right to bring attention to the extremist rhetoric of Kahane, obviously! And I would hope your readers wouldn't draw the same silly overbroad conclusion that it represents 'all Israelis.'
that guardian article was pretty shabby, btw. here,
better piece by reason editor tim cavanaugh on MEMRI
Where has MEMRI said anything about how the racist stuff they translate represents 'Arabs in general' or 'Muslims in general?" or even anything close?
You would be quite right to bring attention to the extremist rhetoric of Kahane, obviously! And I would hope your readers wouldn't draw the same silly overbroad conclusion that it represents 'all Israelis.'
that guardian article was pretty shabby, btw. here,
better piece by reason editor tim cavanaugh on MEMRI
Oh well that settles it. Cole has very little to worry about, obviously, and any letter writing campaign is wasted effort.
No, beause this is primarily a question of MEMRI's reputation, not Cole's.
Their reputation after this deserves to be that of a common thug. Their absurd and disgraceful letter deserves to have them made a fit subject for ridicule in academic circles. Nobody from here on out should unwittingly cite them as a reputable source. That would be to the detriment of scholarship, public policy, and common decency.
Dickhead.
Oh well that settles it. Cole has very little to worry about, obviously, and any letter writing campaign is wasted effort.
No, beause this is primarily a question of MEMRI's reputation, not Cole's.
Their reputation after this deserves to be that of a common thug. Their absurd and disgraceful letter deserves to have them made a fit subject for ridicule in academic circles. Nobody from here on out should unwittingly cite them as a reputable source. That would be to the detriment of scholarship, public policy, and common decency.
Dickhead.
There is a difference here that is more fundamental. With Atrios, he will only post part of something, true, but he links to the rest of it and we can read it because it is in English and then we can decide if Atrios' interpretation it one we can agree with. I"ve seen many times when people did not agree.
With a translator, we do not have the luxury of being able to go to the source ourselves. So cherry picking here is different - it tinkers with the meaning of words. And we can't check ourselves to see if we agree.
There is a difference here that is more fundamental. With Atrios, he will only post part of something, true, but he links to the rest of it and we can read it because it is in English and then we can decide if Atrios' interpretation it one we can agree with. I"ve seen many times when people did not agree.
With a translator, we do not have the luxury of being able to go to the source ourselves. So cherry picking here is different - it tinkers with the meaning of words. And we can't check ourselves to see if we agree.
copyrighting a translation is somehow unethical or non standard? lol
fyi beirut to bayside isnt my blog, but Tony Badran's (lebanese, fyi).
copyrighting a translation is somehow unethical or non standard? lol
fyi beirut to bayside isnt my blog, but Tony Badran's (lebanese, fyi).
Can you guys point me to other instances of inaccuracy at MEMRI.org?
Can you guys point me to other instances of inaccuracy at MEMRI.org?
It's a really bad idea to make a political party of a self-chosen bunch of ideological hacks for profit a syonym for an entire ethnic or religous group.
Who is doing this? Since when does the Hillel make you foment war, commit treason, lie about weapons of mass destruction, undermine or defy international
ahem
LAW
'cause we all know if there is anything that defines "Judaism" it is "breakin' the law, breakin' the law..." Is there any evidence whatsoever to this crap about hatred of fascists who happen to be claiming to represent "world Jewry" being hatred of "world Jewry"? Isn't that a heinous granting of their disgusting little premise?
Although if you meant that Labor really isn't so different from Likud, the same way Democrats have some depressing shared traits with Republicans, you're right. Although somehow Likud/Republicans manage to come out uglier anyway.
BTW, check out "MesaMan's" homepage, and tell me he does not have a bee up his ass about Professor Cole.
Take your jihad elsewhere, Tony.
It's a really bad idea to make a political party of a self-chosen bunch of ideological hacks for profit a syonym for an entire ethnic or religous group.
Who is doing this? Since when does the Hillel make you foment war, commit treason, lie about weapons of mass destruction, undermine or defy international
ahem
LAW
'cause we all know if there is anything that defines "Judaism" it is "breakin' the law, breakin' the law..." Is there any evidence whatsoever to this crap about hatred of fascists who happen to be claiming to represent "world Jewry" being hatred of "world Jewry"? Isn't that a heinous granting of their disgusting little premise?
Although if you meant that Labor really isn't so different from Likud, the same way Democrats have some depressing shared traits with Republicans, you're right. Although somehow Likud/Republicans manage to come out uglier anyway.
BTW, check out "MesaMan's" homepage, and tell me he does not have a bee up his ass about Professor Cole.
Take your jihad elsewhere, Tony.
Direct link to full article pointed to by MesaMan
headline for the article reads, "Site doesn't travel very far to cherry-pick offensive comments"
I guess Cole isn't the only one to conclude that MEMRI is just an orgnisation that "cherry picks offensive comments".
Direct link to full article pointed to by MesaMan
headline for the article reads, "Site doesn't travel very far to cherry-pick offensive comments"
I guess Cole isn't the only one to conclude that MEMRI is just an orgnisation that "cherry picks offensive comments".
"Reason" lacks the intellectual heft of "Scholastic Current Events." We were shocked to read a Reason article asserting that the universal failure of globalization (eg, Argentina, a little thing called West Asia, Russia, etc) was just not true. It just wasn't. So there. 1998 never happened. And we looked and looked for their evidence...because we knew nobody could be so dumb as to just sort of declare that, and then walk on...and we looked...at the end, in the paragraphs following the claim...nowhere! It's pornography for laissez-faire cultists and mindless anti-individual Ayn Rand followers.
"Reason" lacks the intellectual heft of "Scholastic Current Events." We were shocked to read a Reason article asserting that the universal failure of globalization (eg, Argentina, a little thing called West Asia, Russia, etc) was just not true. It just wasn't. So there. 1998 never happened. And we looked and looked for their evidence...because we knew nobody could be so dumb as to just sort of declare that, and then walk on...and we looked...at the end, in the paragraphs following the claim...nowhere! It's pornography for laissez-faire cultists and mindless anti-individual Ayn Rand followers.
Maybe copyrighting an accurate version would be admirable, translating something to suit your own ends seems, while maybe strictly legal, well- cheesy. And this outfit MEMRI reeks of gorgonzola.
Just sayin—
Maybe copyrighting an accurate version would be admirable, translating something to suit your own ends seems, while maybe strictly legal, well- cheesy. And this outfit MEMRI reeks of gorgonzola.
Just sayin—
Cole's criticism that they "cherry-pick" is pretty silly, and struck me as so before I read the posts on this thread. In this sense, Lisa's right that MEMRI is not that much different from Atrios and many other bloggers.
No, Dave, you and Lisa are wrong.
Atrios is in the world of English speaking media. If we want to get a more balanced or different point of view, we have a thousand other sources to choose from. What Atrios does is not cherry picking, but specializing in particular things that catch his interest, across a wide range of topics.
It's different when you are dealing with a site that is NOT a blog, but a non-profit org. that is apparently MIS-translating items from the Arabic press, for non-Arabic speakers who have no other source for that information. Also,
Atrios does not violate the fair use doctrine. That's another BIG difference.
Cole's criticism that they "cherry-pick" is pretty silly, and struck me as so before I read the posts on this thread. In this sense, Lisa's right that MEMRI is not that much different from Atrios and many other bloggers.
No, Dave, you and Lisa are wrong.
Atrios is in the world of English speaking media. If we want to get a more balanced or different point of view, we have a thousand other sources to choose from. What Atrios does is not cherry picking, but specializing in particular things that catch his interest, across a wide range of topics.
It's different when you are dealing with a site that is NOT a blog, but a non-profit org. that is apparently MIS-translating items from the Arabic press, for non-Arabic speakers who have no other source for that information. Also,
Atrios does not violate the fair use doctrine. That's another BIG difference.
copyrighting a translation is somehow unethical or non standard? lol
The way MEMRI is doing it? Yes. LOL. It is to laugh.
fyi beirut to bayside isnt my blog, but Tony Badran's (lebanese, fyi).
Then it's not your homepage? Stop linking to it as your homepage then, acushla, and shove your ethics lectures even further up your ass.
copyrighting a translation is somehow unethical or non standard? lol
The way MEMRI is doing it? Yes. LOL. It is to laugh.
fyi beirut to bayside isnt my blog, but Tony Badran's (lebanese, fyi).
Then it's not your homepage? Stop linking to it as your homepage then, acushla, and shove your ethics lectures even further up your ass.
Tom, the full sentence is "site doesnt travel far to cherry pick" meaning they don't have to, the arab press is filled with similar stuff. And yes, Cavanaughs assessment is considerably more fair than the Guardian's hatchet piece.
Mooser, Badran grew up in war-torn Beirut, I'd say he's pretty close to the subject matter.
Tom, the full sentence is "site doesnt travel far to cherry pick" meaning they don't have to, the arab press is filled with similar stuff. And yes, Cavanaughs assessment is considerably more fair than the Guardian's hatchet piece.
Mooser, Badran grew up in war-torn Beirut, I'd say he's pretty close to the subject matter.
So, let me get this straight... people here are willing to take the position that the media material MEMRI translates is not representative of popular Arab public opinion?
So, let me get this straight... people here are willing to take the position that the media material MEMRI translates is not representative of popular Arab public opinion?
'apparently MIS-translating items'
examples please.
'apparently MIS-translating items'
examples please.
So, let me get this straight... people here are willing to take the position that the media material MEMRI translates is not representative of popular Arab public opinion?
No, we're saying that MEMRI's letter to Cole is absurd and thuggish.
So, let me get this straight... people here are willing to take the position that the media material MEMRI translates is not representative of popular Arab public opinion?
No, we're saying that MEMRI's letter to Cole is absurd and thuggish.
See, in the Reason bit linked (by way of Utne Reader, what the hell is up with that? The Internets are truly a strange place), Cox spins it by assreting that while MEMRI is flawed it's one of the only games in town.
Except for the internet.
The TV shows do this all the time: introduce a story about raping Social Security or sincere hand-wringing over Iranian plans to invade Oregon, and no matter how crazy it is (even after admitting it's crap), you say, yes, but these expert-looking men (they could be anchors!) are saying it's our only choice. We must bomb Calcutta until they agree to accept our nuclear waste. We have no choice, we have to be realistic, the clock is ticking. It is just not imaginable to cancel the odious debt of the dictators of the Third World...until we need Iraq's debt cancelled, after we fucked Iraq's oil which should've paid every cent with ease.
See, in the Reason bit linked (by way of Utne Reader, what the hell is up with that? The Internets are truly a strange place), Cox spins it by assreting that while MEMRI is flawed it's one of the only games in town.
Except for the internet.
The TV shows do this all the time: introduce a story about raping Social Security or sincere hand-wringing over Iranian plans to invade Oregon, and no matter how crazy it is (even after admitting it's crap), you say, yes, but these expert-looking men (they could be anchors!) are saying it's our only choice. We must bomb Calcutta until they agree to accept our nuclear waste. We have no choice, we have to be realistic, the clock is ticking. It is just not imaginable to cancel the odious debt of the dictators of the Third World...until we need Iraq's debt cancelled, after we fucked Iraq's oil which should've paid every cent with ease.
examples please.
MesaMan | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 10:55 pm | #
Why not just use the one Cole is being hassled by Memri for criticizing, the translation of Osama's latest video?
I don't speak Arabic. Do you consider it accurate?
examples please.
MesaMan | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 10:55 pm | #
Why not just use the one Cole is being hassled by Memri for criticizing, the translation of Osama's latest video?
I don't speak Arabic. Do you consider it accurate?
I see.
I agree with that statement.
I see.
I agree with that statement.
ether's a troll, by the way. We once mistook it for esther (a legitimate but now rare commenter), but ether is not really listening.
ether's a troll, by the way. We once mistook it for esther (a legitimate but now rare commenter), but ether is not really listening.
Juan Cole should be sued for libel. He claimed MEMRI was a front for LIKUD when clearly it is a front for the MOSSAD. Duh!
Juan Cole should be sued for libel. He claimed MEMRI was a front for LIKUD when clearly it is a front for the MOSSAD. Duh!
Not mistranslating. Not. But very little translating is word for word - so things have to approximate. Therefore, depending on the frame of reference of the translator, certain words or idioms will fit that frame and he'll choose those rather than others that are equally valid but not in line with that frame.
Not mistranslating. Not. But very little translating is word for word - so things have to approximate. Therefore, depending on the frame of reference of the translator, certain words or idioms will fit that frame and he'll choose those rather than others that are equally valid but not in line with that frame.
Is there any examples besides the Osama tape?
I consider them now 99.9% accurate at this point.
Is there any examples besides the Osama tape?
I consider them now 99.9% accurate at this point.
cavanaugh also lived in beirut and writes for the beirut daily star
cavanaugh also lived in beirut and writes for the beirut daily star
So, let me get this straight... people here are willing to take the position that the media material MEMRI translates is not representative of popular Arab public opinion?
Actually some of the translations they have from the Saudi press are pretty chilling, some of the blood libel articles?
If these are accurate (and I have no reason to believe they're not) shouldn't Bush cut all ties to the Saudis now?
Or are you going to tell me that they're not "representative" of the Saudi government? Because if they are, then Bush is allies and friends with people who are little different from the Nazis in their attitudes towards Jews.
But the problem is Juan Cole right?
So, let me get this straight... people here are willing to take the position that the media material MEMRI translates is not representative of popular Arab public opinion?
Actually some of the translations they have from the Saudi press are pretty chilling, some of the blood libel articles?
If these are accurate (and I have no reason to believe they're not) shouldn't Bush cut all ties to the Saudis now?
Or are you going to tell me that they're not "representative" of the Saudi government? Because if they are, then Bush is allies and friends with people who are little different from the Nazis in their attitudes towards Jews.
But the problem is Juan Cole right?
ether's "mistranslation" business is a trollish deception: look back and you'll see the charge was cherry-picking material, not distorting it.
ether's "mistranslation" business is a trollish deception: look back and you'll see the charge was cherry-picking material, not distorting it.
I'm not sure that our trolls tonight even get why this letter to Cole is so infuriating and disgusting.
They have nothing against him but a possible academic dispute: over the source of MEMRI's funding (as a tort, Cole's right--this is absurd), and over their use of sources.
What they are saying is "if you disagree with us over how we are assessing an academic matter and characterizing our academic mission, we will sue you."
Academic freedom includes the right to disagree, EVEN WRONGLY.
That MEMRI does not understand this means that they have forfeited any right to be taken seriously as an academic organization.
There is no way to debate this. On the issue of their letter to Dr. Cole, they are utterly in the wrong.
I'm not sure that our trolls tonight even get why this letter to Cole is so infuriating and disgusting.
They have nothing against him but a possible academic dispute: over the source of MEMRI's funding (as a tort, Cole's right--this is absurd), and over their use of sources.
What they are saying is "if you disagree with us over how we are assessing an academic matter and characterizing our academic mission, we will sue you."
Academic freedom includes the right to disagree, EVEN WRONGLY.
That MEMRI does not understand this means that they have forfeited any right to be taken seriously as an academic organization.
There is no way to debate this. On the issue of their letter to Dr. Cole, they are utterly in the wrong.
Mesa-Man. I don't doubt his closeness to the subject matter. Or his experience.
Mesa-Man. I don't doubt his closeness to the subject matter. Or his experience.
The funny thing is how completely asinine this threat is. The first element of libel is that the accusations have to hold someone up to serious public ridicule, contempt, hatred or injures their business. How would a report that an organization gets more money than they do harm their business or hold them up to serious public ridicule? The prototypical libel case is one where you have a defendant who said someone has a serious sexual disease. Neither does claiming an organization is closely associated with a very popular political party in Israel.
Now, claiming that the organization cherry-picks their evidence could theoretically bring them some level of disrepute, but that's the author's opinion. You simply cannot press libel claims against opinions. Opinions are exempt from libel charges.
You have to wonder what sort of organization would send out a letter so completely ungrounded in the law, threatening legal action. It's just a bad idea.
The funny thing is how completely asinine this threat is. The first element of libel is that the accusations have to hold someone up to serious public ridicule, contempt, hatred or injures their business. How would a report that an organization gets more money than they do harm their business or hold them up to serious public ridicule? The prototypical libel case is one where you have a defendant who said someone has a serious sexual disease. Neither does claiming an organization is closely associated with a very popular political party in Israel.
Now, claiming that the organization cherry-picks their evidence could theoretically bring them some level of disrepute, but that's the author's opinion. You simply cannot press libel claims against opinions. Opinions are exempt from libel charges.
You have to wonder what sort of organization would send out a letter so completely ungrounded in the law, threatening legal action. It's just a bad idea.
SWR:
Shouldn't Clinton close his library considering it was partially funded by "people who are little different from the Nazis in their attitudes towards Jews?"
But the problem is Bush right?
SWR:
Shouldn't Clinton close his library considering it was partially funded by "people who are little different from the Nazis in their attitudes towards Jews?"
But the problem is Bush right?
ether's a troll, by the way.
Yup.
ether's a troll, by the way.
Yup.
SWR:
Shouldn't Clinton close his library considering it was partially funded by "people who are little different from the Nazis in their attitudes towards Jews?"
But the problem is Bush right?
ether | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 11:03 pm
Considering the fact that Bush is president and Clinton isn't, I'd have to say his relationship to the Saudis is probably a bit more important than Clinton's.
Kerry actually showed some willingness to criticize the Saudis last Summer. I haven't seen the same thing from Bush.
SWR:
Shouldn't Clinton close his library considering it was partially funded by "people who are little different from the Nazis in their attitudes towards Jews?"
But the problem is Bush right?
ether | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 11:03 pm
Considering the fact that Bush is president and Clinton isn't, I'd have to say his relationship to the Saudis is probably a bit more important than Clinton's.
Kerry actually showed some willingness to criticize the Saudis last Summer. I haven't seen the same thing from Bush.
Can't believe I'm reading noz at atrios...
More summary and a bit of MEMRI analysis here if you're looking for more.
They deny cherry-picking, yet their cartoons section is broken down into 4 categories: "Anti American cartoons," "Common anti-semitic cartoons," "Jews and Israelis controlling the U.S. Government," and "Jews and Israelies as Nazis and Hitler."
Not exactly an expansive framework.
Can't believe I'm reading noz at atrios...
More summary and a bit of MEMRI analysis here if you're looking for more.
They deny cherry-picking, yet their cartoons section is broken down into 4 categories: "Anti American cartoons," "Common anti-semitic cartoons," "Jews and Israelis controlling the U.S. Government," and "Jews and Israelies as Nazis and Hitler."
Not exactly an expansive framework.
Thersites
I guess they are uncomfortable with the concept of peer review.
Thersites
I guess they are uncomfortable with the concept of peer review.
How am I a troll?
How am I a troll?
"Reason" lacks the intellectual heft of "Scholastic Current Events."
Cathy Young, for example.
"Reason" lacks the intellectual heft of "Scholastic Current Events."
Cathy Young, for example.
How am I a troll?
Past behavior is a reliable predictor of future conduct?
How am I a troll?
Past behavior is a reliable predictor of future conduct?
So, let me get this straight... people here are willing to take the position that the media material MEMRI translates is not representative of popular Arab public opinion?
Only as much as Ann Coulter is representative of popular US public opinion, or Mark Steyn of Canada.
I know you'd like to think that it is. But then right wingers loooove echo chambers.
So, let me get this straight... people here are willing to take the position that the media material MEMRI translates is not representative of popular Arab public opinion?
Only as much as Ann Coulter is representative of popular US public opinion, or Mark Steyn of Canada.
I know you'd like to think that it is. But then right wingers loooove echo chambers.
We remember the vampire article. Now, the Saudi government (the same thing as the Saudi press) actively uses hatred of Israeli crimes as an outlet for the enormous hatred their constitueny has for them, something like Soviet writing on the US and vice versa. It's trying to be somewhat subtle (if you recall how "subtle" Time and US News could be about the Soyuz back in the day; we pretty much just mean no vampires). Outright supernatural crap is out. The editor claimed he was on vacation at the time, that the thing slipped by the way a TV anchor in the US will sometimes go off on a "my two cents" piece. This is not the same thing as a real Poyntery journalistic integrity thing, but that one example was seen as an embarassing and silly stab too far...by the stabbers.
We remember the vampire article. Now, the Saudi government (the same thing as the Saudi press) actively uses hatred of Israeli crimes as an outlet for the enormous hatred their constitueny has for them, something like Soviet writing on the US and vice versa. It's trying to be somewhat subtle (if you recall how "subtle" Time and US News could be about the Soyuz back in the day; we pretty much just mean no vampires). Outright supernatural crap is out. The editor claimed he was on vacation at the time, that the thing slipped by the way a TV anchor in the US will sometimes go off on a "my two cents" piece. This is not the same thing as a real Poyntery journalistic integrity thing, but that one example was seen as an embarassing and silly stab too far...by the stabbers.
I agreed with Thersites, the letter is absurd and thuggish. That doesn't dispute every translation they provide. They provide a unique window to the murderous rhetoric of some in the Arab press, for the benefit of non-Arabic speakers who may be concerned.
Like Bush, I'm concerned with murderous Islamist rhetoric.
Call me paranoid.
I agreed with Thersites, the letter is absurd and thuggish. That doesn't dispute every translation they provide. They provide a unique window to the murderous rhetoric of some in the Arab press, for the benefit of non-Arabic speakers who may be concerned.
Like Bush, I'm concerned with murderous Islamist rhetoric.
Call me paranoid.
MEMRI is using the same law firm as the one that's working Richard Perle's libel suit against Sy Hersch: Bluff, Bluster and Runn.
MEMRI is using the same law firm as the one that's working Richard Perle's libel suit against Sy Hersch: Bluff, Bluster and Runn.
We remember the vampire article. Now, the Saudi government (the same thing as the Saudi press) actively uses hatred of Israeli crimes as an outlet for the enormous hatred their constitueny has for them, something like Soviet writing on the US and vice versa.
From this point on, the Saudis should always been referred to as "Bush's Friends the Saudis".
I wonder if Ether could explain why Bush is friends and allies with a government that sponsors anti-semtic propaganda.
Is Bush an anti-semite?
We remember the vampire article. Now, the Saudi government (the same thing as the Saudi press) actively uses hatred of Israeli crimes as an outlet for the enormous hatred their constitueny has for them, something like Soviet writing on the US and vice versa.
From this point on, the Saudis should always been referred to as "Bush's Friends the Saudis".
I wonder if Ether could explain why Bush is friends and allies with a government that sponsors anti-semtic propaganda.
Is Bush an anti-semite?
Call me paranoid.
Okay. You're paranoid.
To those in the reality-based world, Bush rhetoric is of great concern.
Call me paranoid.
Okay. You're paranoid.
To those in the reality-based world, Bush rhetoric is of great concern.
' absurd and thuggish'
I think it's absurd and thuggish to tag ideological opponents with unproven (and completely false) political affiliations. And phonying up BS dollar figures to score points with the 'AIPAC' conspiracists.
Like calling liberals "commies" -- only unlike Cole nobody takes right wing cranks like that too seriously. Aren't academics supposed to care about telling the fucking TRUTH??
' absurd and thuggish'
I think it's absurd and thuggish to tag ideological opponents with unproven (and completely false) political affiliations. And phonying up BS dollar figures to score points with the 'AIPAC' conspiracists.
Like calling liberals "commies" -- only unlike Cole nobody takes right wing cranks like that too seriously. Aren't academics supposed to care about telling the fucking TRUTH??
SWR: Considering Clinton's wife is a powerful senator, and probable candidate for President in 08' you should be concerned.
I wish Bush would push harder on the Saudis. But don't try and pretend the Dems would do any better.
Read Robert Baer's Sleeping with the Devil to get fully disgusted.
SWR: Considering Clinton's wife is a powerful senator, and probable candidate for President in 08' you should be concerned.
I wish Bush would push harder on the Saudis. But don't try and pretend the Dems would do any better.
Read Robert Baer's Sleeping with the Devil to get fully disgusted.
SWR: Considering Clinton's wife is a powerful senator, and probable candidate for President in 08' you should be concerned.
I wish Bush would push harder on the Saudis. But don't try and pretend the Dems would do any better.
Who's part of the minority party and (unlike Bush) has absolutely no ties to the oil industry.
Try again.
SWR: Considering Clinton's wife is a powerful senator, and probable candidate for President in 08' you should be concerned.
I wish Bush would push harder on the Saudis. But don't try and pretend the Dems would do any better.
Who's part of the minority party and (unlike Bush) has absolutely no ties to the oil industry.
Try again.
SWR: Considering Clinton's wife is a powerful senator, and probable candidate for President in 08' you should be concerned.
Hahahahaha.
You're silly.
SWR: Considering Clinton's wife is a powerful senator, and probable candidate for President in 08' you should be concerned.
Hahahahaha.
You're silly.
Like Bush, I'm concerned with murderous Islamist rhetoric.
Call me paranoid.
They should not behave like that which they claim to despise.
They have forfeited my respect, as they should yours.
Like Bush, I'm concerned with murderous Islamist rhetoric.
Call me paranoid.
They should not behave like that which they claim to despise.
They have forfeited my respect, as they should yours.
-- only unlike Cole nobody takes right wing cranks like that too seriously. Aren't academics supposed to care about telling the fucking TRUTH??
I'm assuming you're talking about Memri.
Takes them seriously. Their director is married to a close Cheney subordinate.
This is hardly the same as comparing Democrats to the "Peoples Daily Worker".
-- only unlike Cole nobody takes right wing cranks like that too seriously. Aren't academics supposed to care about telling the fucking TRUTH??
I'm assuming you're talking about Memri.
Takes them seriously. Their director is married to a close Cheney subordinate.
This is hardly the same as comparing Democrats to the "Peoples Daily Worker".
If you need evidence that fifty years of unchallenged Israeli crimes and American puppetry, compounded in a crucible of fascistic Arab governments more than happy to channel certain "appropriate" hatreds, can get a flag or two burnt, you're not paranoid--you're retarded. We know there are angry nuts in Arabia; we also know there's Riverbend. Like we said, check out Adam Parfrey's "Extreme Islam." Much better than MEMRI at its own game.
If you need evidence that fifty years of unchallenged Israeli crimes and American puppetry, compounded in a crucible of fascistic Arab governments more than happy to channel certain "appropriate" hatreds, can get a flag or two burnt, you're not paranoid--you're retarded. We know there are angry nuts in Arabia; we also know there's Riverbend. Like we said, check out Adam Parfrey's "Extreme Islam." Much better than MEMRI at its own game.
Ether,
Though you'd be foolish to trust me without knowing me, MEMRI's translations are specious at best. It's a poorly-translated compost of the worst opinion pieces coming out of the Arabic press... Think of an organization dedicated to translating into Arabic the Jerry Falwells, Bob Jones, and other scraps of ideological detritus bobbing around in our local papers, and you've got MEMRI's mission and net worth.
And yes...it's a bridge - but shouldn't you give some pause before trodding over it? Even with an utter lack of knowledge of arabic, you can still parse through the dates, titles, videos, and organization of the site to see that you're getting a pretty simple message: "These people are crazy, and I don't see any translated material to suggest otherwise."
Ether,
Though you'd be foolish to trust me without knowing me, MEMRI's translations are specious at best. It's a poorly-translated compost of the worst opinion pieces coming out of the Arabic press... Think of an organization dedicated to translating into Arabic the Jerry Falwells, Bob Jones, and other scraps of ideological detritus bobbing around in our local papers, and you've got MEMRI's mission and net worth.
And yes...it's a bridge - but shouldn't you give some pause before trodding over it? Even with an utter lack of knowledge of arabic, you can still parse through the dates, titles, videos, and organization of the site to see that you're getting a pretty simple message: "These people are crazy, and I don't see any translated material to suggest otherwise."
SWR:
I refuse to defend the U.S's relationships with the Saudis. Only with partisan blinders can you possibly believe the Republicans are the only party whoring out to petro dollars.
Try stepping out of your reality based commune and into reality.
SWR:
I refuse to defend the U.S's relationships with the Saudis. Only with partisan blinders can you possibly believe the Republicans are the only party whoring out to petro dollars.
Try stepping out of your reality based commune and into reality.
' we also know there's Riverbend. '
just like we know there's a santa claus.
' we also know there's Riverbend. '
just like we know there's a santa claus.
I've been reading Prof. Cole's blog since before the Iraq war. Reading the anti-Cole blog, and now the comments from Mesa-Man, could it be that more than anything else what's involved here is that he seems to be, besides "Informed", a warm, caring voice, and an advocate and explainer of ME events, a Muslim who might start you thinking "these people are not so different from me, and certainly not bloodthirsty savages".
Why, it almost seems like they consider any comment on the Mideast which does not toe the far right Israeli line a threat.
I've been reading Prof. Cole's blog since before the Iraq war. Reading the anti-Cole blog, and now the comments from Mesa-Man, could it be that more than anything else what's involved here is that he seems to be, besides "Informed", a warm, caring voice, and an advocate and explainer of ME events, a Muslim who might start you thinking "these people are not so different from me, and certainly not bloodthirsty savages".
Why, it almost seems like they consider any comment on the Mideast which does not toe the far right Israeli line a threat.
just like we know there's a santa claus
MesaMan, you're a closeminded little man, aren't you?
just like we know there's a santa claus
MesaMan, you're a closeminded little man, aren't you?
It's too bad Juan Cole harangues the A-Man about linkage. It's too bad that Juan has the most unflattering picture ever shot on his website (ok, he has the second most unflattering picture ever taken, my pic in the NY Times was the worst ever). Neither of those artifacts detracts from his arguments concerning how badly the US has fucked up in Iraq.
It's too bad Juan Cole harangues the A-Man about linkage. It's too bad that Juan has the most unflattering picture ever shot on his website (ok, he has the second most unflattering picture ever taken, my pic in the NY Times was the worst ever). Neither of those artifacts detracts from his arguments concerning how badly the US has fucked up in Iraq.
I refuse to defend the U.S's relationships with the Saudis. Only with partisan blinders can you possibly believe the Republicans are the only party whoring out to petro dollars.
Considering they control both houses of Congress, the White House, and (fairly soon) most of the judiaciary, they're also the party that I'm most worried about.
If the Democrats were in power and sucking up to Saudi oil money I'd be more concerned about them. But they're not.
Your side won and now you have to accept responsibility for US foreign policy.
I refuse to defend the U.S's relationships with the Saudis. Only with partisan blinders can you possibly believe the Republicans are the only party whoring out to petro dollars.
Considering they control both houses of Congress, the White House, and (fairly soon) most of the judiaciary, they're also the party that I'm most worried about.
If the Democrats were in power and sucking up to Saudi oil money I'd be more concerned about them. But they're not.
Your side won and now you have to accept responsibility for US foreign policy.
I think it's absurd and thuggish to tag ideological opponents with unproven (and completely false) political affiliations. And phonying up BS dollar figures to score points with the 'AIPAC' conspiracists.
Like calling liberals "commies" -- only unlike Cole nobody takes right wing cranks like that too seriously. Aren't academics supposed to care about telling the fucking TRUTH??
When you threaten to take it to court it's a different ballgame, dumbass. That's not where academic "TRUTH" is supposed to reside.
Jaysus, you are one of the dumber trolls of recent memory... not a single ethical principle to call your own. And a less than cursory comprehension of the law. Gobshite.
I think it's absurd and thuggish to tag ideological opponents with unproven (and completely false) political affiliations. And phonying up BS dollar figures to score points with the 'AIPAC' conspiracists.
Like calling liberals "commies" -- only unlike Cole nobody takes right wing cranks like that too seriously. Aren't academics supposed to care about telling the fucking TRUTH??
When you threaten to take it to court it's a different ballgame, dumbass. That's not where academic "TRUTH" is supposed to reside.
Jaysus, you are one of the dumber trolls of recent memory... not a single ethical principle to call your own. And a less than cursory comprehension of the law. Gobshite.
Bush is indeed an anti-Semite, by virue of being a Born Again Zionist. The Born Again Zionist wants to concentrate all Jews into haaretz, because once you hit the everybody point, Jesus returns and condemns them all to SUFFER PERSECUTION IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY!!!! (cue wiseass Jew remarks about historical redundancy.)
And of course all of us who haven't accepted Baby Jesus into their hearts as their personal lord and savior will be joining them.
Bush is indeed an anti-Semite, by virue of being a Born Again Zionist. The Born Again Zionist wants to concentrate all Jews into haaretz, because once you hit the everybody point, Jesus returns and condemns them all to SUFFER PERSECUTION IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY!!!! (cue wiseass Jew remarks about historical redundancy.)
And of course all of us who haven't accepted Baby Jesus into their hearts as their personal lord and savior will be joining them.
Why, it almost seems like they consider any comment on the Mideast which does not toe the far right Israeli line a threat.
Bingo.
Why, it almost seems like they consider any comment on the Mideast which does not toe the far right Israeli line a threat.
Bingo.
Kirk:
I agree they "cherry pick," but it seems the majority of the press they translate seems to be fairly mainstream, and often, state run. I wish I could compare MEMRI's translations to others but there is no ther translation site I know of. Perhaps someone can start a blog showcasing the inaccuracies of MEMRI and the moderates within the Arab press.
I won't hold my breath.
Kirk:
I agree they "cherry pick," but it seems the majority of the press they translate seems to be fairly mainstream, and often, state run. I wish I could compare MEMRI's translations to others but there is no ther translation site I know of. Perhaps someone can start a blog showcasing the inaccuracies of MEMRI and the moderates within the Arab press.
I won't hold my breath.
can i frist my own post?
upyernoz | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 9:25 pm | #
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?
A person who has privileges to post articles does a lame ass thing like frist in the comments?
Atrios be baggin u when he gets home.
baffled | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 9:31 pm | #
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MEMRI are the band of goofs responsible for originating that erroneous "OBL threatens only states that vote for Der Chimperer" from the pre-election video. Big-time neocon tools, so "out there" that even fascist fronts like the Bradley Foundation gave up on funding them.
-
Fielding Mellish | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 9:35 pm | #
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Two other main points from Cole:
I will add another criticism of MEMRI, which is that it systematically violates the intellectual property of Arab writers by appropriating their content without paying for it and storing them on its servers, and then claiming copyright in their work as translated! This is a shameful way of proceeding. Where the source articles are published in a country that is signatory to the major international copyright agreements, it may be illegal. All sites dealing in other languages do quote or translate from time to time, which falls under fair use. But MEMRI has a much more systematic set of appropriations going.
MEMRI has begun taking out blog ads. Since it can hardly go about threatening bloggers with lawsuits without violating the essential spirit of open discourse on the Web, it has forfeited any claim on our eyeballs. I urge all bloggers to decline advertisements from MEMRI until such time as Colonel Carmon withdraws his outrageous threat.
dave | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 9:37 pm | #
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Intimidation borne of desperation.
You can smell the perspiration.
Central Scrutinizer | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 9:38 pm | #
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Upyernoz, good work, frist if you will: this ain't exactly the Olympic Games. Just have fun!
My letter of protest under my far more respectable professional header goes out tomorrow. MEMRI is being thuggish. Their threat to Professor Cole is outrageous.
Thersites | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 9:41 pm | #
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Sir,
As a Jew and a supporter of the State of Israel, which stands for democracy, free speech and free academic inquiry, I find MEMRI's threat of a lawsuit against Prof. Cole and the University of Michigan shameful.
Attempting to silence one's critics with vague accusations of libel instead of engaging in debate is essentially anti-democratic.
S
can i frist my own post?
upyernoz | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 9:25 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
?
A person who has privileges to post articles does a lame ass thing like frist in the comments?
Atrios be baggin u when he gets home.
baffled | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 9:31 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
MEMRI are the band of goofs responsible for originating that erroneous "OBL threatens only states that vote for Der Chimperer" from the pre-election video. Big-time neocon tools, so "out there" that even fascist fronts like the Bradley Foundation gave up on funding them.
-
Fielding Mellish | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 9:35 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Two other main points from Cole:
I will add another criticism of MEMRI, which is that it systematically violates the intellectual property of Arab writers by appropriating their content without paying for it and storing them on its servers, and then claiming copyright in their work as translated! This is a shameful way of proceeding. Where the source articles are published in a country that is signatory to the major international copyright agreements, it may be illegal. All sites dealing in other languages do quote or translate from time to time, which falls under fair use. But MEMRI has a much more systematic set of appropriations going.
MEMRI has begun taking out blog ads. Since it can hardly go about threatening bloggers with lawsuits without violating the essential spirit of open discourse on the Web, it has forfeited any claim on our eyeballs. I urge all bloggers to decline advertisements from MEMRI until such time as Colonel Carmon withdraws his outrageous threat.
dave | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 9:37 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Intimidation borne of desperation.
You can smell the perspiration.
Central Scrutinizer | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 9:38 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Upyernoz, good work, frist if you will: this ain't exactly the Olympic Games. Just have fun!
My letter of protest under my far more respectable professional header goes out tomorrow. MEMRI is being thuggish. Their threat to Professor Cole is outrageous.
Thersites | Email | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 9:41 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Sir,
As a Jew and a supporter of the State of Israel, which stands for democracy, free speech and free academic inquiry, I find MEMRI's threat of a lawsuit against Prof. Cole and the University of Michigan shameful.
Attempting to silence one's critics with vague accusations of libel instead of engaging in debate is essentially anti-democratic.
S
Crap, I'm really sorry about that last post! I didn't mean to do that!
Crap, I'm really sorry about that last post! I didn't mean to do that!
What is this "all or nothing" mentality permeating this society? Just when did life become so black or white, purely right or purely wrong, my way or no way to such vast numbers of people? Every thought, feeling or statement is over analyzed or scrutinized to death. It seems once a society begins to close its mind, close its doors, close its communication and close itself off from those who offer differing or opposing feelings or viewpoints, euthanasia of that society ensues.
Destruction is the lazy way to exist in life with very little expended in our human existence to see it flourish. Construction takes blood, sweat and tears in great human quanties to witness even small or concrete results. If one really does not wish to live on this planet and truly be alive throughout its existence, the choice is an easy one.
I say, "To Life!" - which allows for us all to live with the good and the bad of others in our existence and with the results of our choices. Suppression is mostly championed by the ignorant and the cowardly while Expression is often championed by the wise and the brave. Quite often it seems that suppressionists seek to impose censureship in life while expressionists seek to repel censorship. A greater danger, however is in the silence - on either side - for words are life, whether written, spoken, brailled or signed. To stifle them is to stifle our very breath and thereby suffocate.
Let not our differences drive us to the vice-grip of the extremist.
What is this "all or nothing" mentality permeating this society? Just when did life become so black or white, purely right or purely wrong, my way or no way to such vast numbers of people? Every thought, feeling or statement is over analyzed or scrutinized to death. It seems once a society begins to close its mind, close its doors, close its communication and close itself off from those who offer differing or opposing feelings or viewpoints, euthanasia of that society ensues.
Destruction is the lazy way to exist in life with very little expended in our human existence to see it flourish. Construction takes blood, sweat and tears in great human quanties to witness even small or concrete results. If one really does not wish to live on this planet and truly be alive throughout its existence, the choice is an easy one.
I say, "To Life!" - which allows for us all to live with the good and the bad of others in our existence and with the results of our choices. Suppression is mostly championed by the ignorant and the cowardly while Expression is often championed by the wise and the brave. Quite often it seems that suppressionists seek to impose censureship in life while expressionists seek to repel censorship. A greater danger, however is in the silence - on either side - for words are life, whether written, spoken, brailled or signed. To stifle them is to stifle our very breath and thereby suffocate.
Let not our differences drive us to the vice-grip of the extremist.
Dave, MEMRI is not blogging a checkable media with a declared loyalty in observation of certain parties: they claim to be introducing non-Arabic speakers to what the Arabic mainstream really is about. When they purport to do that and return with Sharon's irrational camel salesmen who "will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS hate us" and who cannot be relied upon or negotiated with, and Cole and other experts can point to other voices, that is cherry-picking. Has Atrios ever tried to sell you on the evil filthy Americans who can only orgasm when bombing children?
Perhaps if you could point to examples of MEMRI tarring all Arabs with the same brush, them actually using the words "who will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS hate us," or something like that, I'd understand your point a little better. I've read a fair amount of their stuff and they do translate sentiments from a variety of viewpoints; they also don't *just* translate from Arab media, but also from other sources as well.
They don't purport to represent all Arab media equally, so accusing them of not doing so is disingenuous.
It's different when you are dealing with a site that is NOT a blog, but a non-profit org.
I don't see why.
that is apparently MIS-translating items from the Arabic press,
This is a different issue from that of cherry-picking, though I agree that based on the blog post linked to on Atrios' main page, there do seem to be some serious issues with that translation. (It's also worth noting that their error on that page was in mistranslating Osama bin Laden, not in mistranslating Arabic media...in that particular case, there were no shortage of people offering up translations and interpretations of what bin Laden had said.)
for non-Arabic speakers who have no other source for that information.
I see where you're coming from here, but criticizing MEMRI because there aren't enough other voices out there doing what they're doing (or something comparable) is silly. If there aren't enough competing voices out there, that's not MEMRI's problem.
Also, Atrios does not violate the fair use doctrine. That's another BIG difference.
Of course, but again, this is a separate issue from the accusation of "cherry-picking."
Dave, MEMRI is not blogging a checkable media with a declared loyalty in observation of certain parties: they claim to be introducing non-Arabic speakers to what the Arabic mainstream really is about. When they purport to do that and return with Sharon's irrational camel salesmen who "will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS hate us" and who cannot be relied upon or negotiated with, and Cole and other experts can point to other voices, that is cherry-picking. Has Atrios ever tried to sell you on the evil filthy Americans who can only orgasm when bombing children?
Perhaps if you could point to examples of MEMRI tarring all Arabs with the same brush, them actually using the words "who will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS hate us," or something like that, I'd understand your point a little better. I've read a fair amount of their stuff and they do translate sentiments from a variety of viewpoints; they also don't *just* translate from Arab media, but also from other sources as well.
They don't purport to represent all Arab media equally, so accusing them of not doing so is disingenuous.
It's different when you are dealing with a site that is NOT a blog, but a non-profit org.
I don't see why.
that is apparently MIS-translating items from the Arabic press,
This is a different issue from that of cherry-picking, though I agree that based on the blog post linked to on Atrios' main page, there do seem to be some serious issues with that translation. (It's also worth noting that their error on that page was in mistranslating Osama bin Laden, not in mistranslating Arabic media...in that particular case, there were no shortage of people offering up translations and interpretations of what bin Laden had said.)
for non-Arabic speakers who have no other source for that information.
I see where you're coming from here, but criticizing MEMRI because there aren't enough other voices out there doing what they're doing (or something comparable) is silly. If there aren't enough competing voices out there, that's not MEMRI's problem.
Also, Atrios does not violate the fair use doctrine. That's another BIG difference.
Of course, but again, this is a separate issue from the accusation of "cherry-picking."
Perhaps someone can start a blog showcasing the inaccuracies of MEMRI and the moderates within the Arab press.
Perhaps someone can start translating the freepers and Little Green Raelians in to arabic as well. And call it representative of the pro-Bush media in the US.
Perhaps someone can start a blog showcasing the inaccuracies of MEMRI and the moderates within the Arab press.
Perhaps someone can start translating the freepers and Little Green Raelians in to arabic as well. And call it representative of the pro-Bush media in the US.
A people-less land for a landless people.
A people-less land for a landless people.
If I address Yigal Carmon in my letter as 'Mr.' instead of 'Colonel' (because he may have a military rank in some other country, but in the US he's just another schlemiel)would that be too impolite?
If I address Yigal Carmon in my letter as 'Mr.' instead of 'Colonel' (because he may have a military rank in some other country, but in the US he's just another schlemiel)would that be too impolite?
My mother's law firm specializes in defeating SLAPP suits. And oh yeah, she's Arab American. I just alerted her to this and they're on the case. MEMRI's gonna be in trouble....
My mother's law firm specializes in defeating SLAPP suits. And oh yeah, she's Arab American. I just alerted her to this and they're on the case. MEMRI's gonna be in trouble....
Actually, as Professor Cole implies in his response, the problem MEMRI has is proving damages.
Nothing cited in the letter on his post qualifies as slander or libel per se, at least not in the common law sense of the terms. Without that, MEMRI has to prove it was damaged by Professor Cole's statements. And if misstatements of fact, either intentionally or negligently, or even innocently, are grounds for recovery on a libel action, FoxNews and Rush Limbaugh will be shut down by Monday morning.
Seriously.
This is intimidation, or the attempt at it, pure and simple. Clearly, it won't work.
Actually, as Professor Cole implies in his response, the problem MEMRI has is proving damages.
Nothing cited in the letter on his post qualifies as slander or libel per se, at least not in the common law sense of the terms. Without that, MEMRI has to prove it was damaged by Professor Cole's statements. And if misstatements of fact, either intentionally or negligently, or even innocently, are grounds for recovery on a libel action, FoxNews and Rush Limbaugh will be shut down by Monday morning.
Seriously.
This is intimidation, or the attempt at it, pure and simple. Clearly, it won't work.
Perhaps someone can start translating the freepers and Little Green Raelians in to arabic as well. And call it representative of the pro-Bush media in the US.
Ouch.
Perhaps someone can start translating the freepers and Little Green Raelians in to arabic as well. And call it representative of the pro-Bush media in the US.
Ouch.
SWR:
I'm not responsible for Bush's policies or our reliance on Saudi oil. Clearly Bush is not responsible for our civilization's reliance on oil for survival?
What is your plan for immediate relief from our Saudi oil itch and how would you enact it in the next 4 years.
The simple fact is we are oil dependent until we find another way.
Blaming/hating Bush hardy helps solve this very real problem.
I disagree with him on a lot.
Borders, Amnesty, Deficits, Abortion, Gay Marriage.
The need for someone/something to hate and spew at is what's driving people away from your party.
No more ideas, just criticism.
SWR:
I'm not responsible for Bush's policies or our reliance on Saudi oil. Clearly Bush is not responsible for our civilization's reliance on oil for survival?
What is your plan for immediate relief from our Saudi oil itch and how would you enact it in the next 4 years.
The simple fact is we are oil dependent until we find another way.
Blaming/hating Bush hardy helps solve this very real problem.
I disagree with him on a lot.
Borders, Amnesty, Deficits, Abortion, Gay Marriage.
The need for someone/something to hate and spew at is what's driving people away from your party.
No more ideas, just criticism.
The need for someone/something to hate and spew at is what's driving people away from your party.
Well, apparently, providing someone to "hate and spew" at is working really well for the Republican party, ain't it?
Modern American politics: "Vote for me cause the other guy's a scumbag and only scumbags support him."
The need for someone/something to hate and spew at is what's driving people away from your party.
Well, apparently, providing someone to "hate and spew" at is working really well for the Republican party, ain't it?
Modern American politics: "Vote for me cause the other guy's a scumbag and only scumbags support him."
Free advice to MEMRI, your group's name sucks big time. It reminds me too much of the memrihole if you get my drift. Being wingnuts, they probably don't get it.
Free advice to MEMRI, your group's name sucks big time. It reminds me too much of the memrihole if you get my drift. Being wingnuts, they probably don't get it.
Let not our differences drive us to the vice-grip of the extremist.
Shut up.
"The true thing is generally the extreme thing."
--Emma Goldman
.
Let not our differences drive us to the vice-grip of the extremist.
Shut up.
"The true thing is generally the extreme thing."
--Emma Goldman
.
Perhaps someone can start a blog showcasing the inaccuracies of MEMRI and the moderates within the Arab press.
ether -
While it'd be nice to have such a counter-site, it'd be even better to use some common sense. MEMRI does translate a good deal of its pieces from both small and large papers - but on a given day in al-Hayat, for example, you could see 7-10 pieces. If MEMRI's bringing you a few op-eds a week, shouldn't that raise your eyebrows a bit?
For a very rough starting poing, try ajeeb.com , which allows you to translate babelfish style. It's far from perfect, but a fun toy to throw around...
Perhaps someone can start a blog showcasing the inaccuracies of MEMRI and the moderates within the Arab press.
ether -
While it'd be nice to have such a counter-site, it'd be even better to use some common sense. MEMRI does translate a good deal of its pieces from both small and large papers - but on a given day in al-Hayat, for example, you could see 7-10 pieces. If MEMRI's bringing you a few op-eds a week, shouldn't that raise your eyebrows a bit?
For a very rough starting poing, try ajeeb.com , which allows you to translate babelfish style. It's far from perfect, but a fun toy to throw around...
Crank that megaphone up to 11 man! MEMRI is apparently nutty and is notorious for mistranslations which play to ideologues.
Crank that megaphone up to 11 man! MEMRI is apparently nutty and is notorious for mistranslations which play to ideologues.
Ether, I admire the cogency and incisiveness with which you went right to the heart of the Juan Cole/Memri SLAPP letter discussion
Ether, I admire the cogency and incisiveness with which you went right to the heart of the Juan Cole/Memri SLAPP letter discussion
Thanks for the link Kirk, but the draw of MEMRI is in not having to semi-translate Arabic text.
While I will have a greater degree of skepticism when viewing their material, based on the alleged misinterpretation of the Osama tape, I won't completely disregard every translation they provide.
Thanks for the link Kirk, but the draw of MEMRI is in not having to semi-translate Arabic text.
While I will have a greater degree of skepticism when viewing their material, based on the alleged misinterpretation of the Osama tape, I won't completely disregard every translation they provide.
The need for someone/something to hate and spew at is what's driving people away from your party.
Considering that your "side" has just been busted foisting a spurious lawsuit meant to chill academic speech, that's a bit fucking rich, asshole.
The need for someone/something to hate and spew at is what's driving people away from your party.
Considering that your "side" has just been busted foisting a spurious lawsuit meant to chill academic speech, that's a bit fucking rich, asshole.
I dont know about ajeeb, but here's a handy guide to Cole-speak:
"all Israelis not in favor of disbanding the state of Israel" = "Likud Operatives"
"Israelis who translate nasty Arabic articles about Jews drinking blood in state-run media" = "Likud Operatives"
"Israelis operating on five figure budgets" = "AIPAC funded $60 million dollar behemoths"
I dont know about ajeeb, but here's a handy guide to Cole-speak:
"all Israelis not in favor of disbanding the state of Israel" = "Likud Operatives"
"Israelis who translate nasty Arabic articles about Jews drinking blood in state-run media" = "Likud Operatives"
"Israelis operating on five figure budgets" = "AIPAC funded $60 million dollar behemoths"
The need for someone/something to hate and spew at is what's driving people away from your party.
Good grief.
The need for someone/something to hate and spew at is what's driving people away from your party.
Good grief.
Goddamn, MesaMan, that was fucking pathetic.
Goddamn, MesaMan, that was fucking pathetic.
MEMRI's job is to muddy the waters...
MEMRI's job is to muddy the waters...
Agreed, RMJ, there are no damages, and it's pure intimidation, of the Daniel Pipes variety.
And as Juan Cole said, they are a non-profit and therefore not allowed to engage in direct political activity. But a lot of right wing political groups and individuals can make use of these selective translations as grist for their mill.
Agreed, RMJ, there are no damages, and it's pure intimidation, of the Daniel Pipes variety.
And as Juan Cole said, they are a non-profit and therefore not allowed to engage in direct political activity. But a lot of right wing political groups and individuals can make use of these selective translations as grist for their mill.
Shut up.
"The true thing is generally the extreme thing."
--Emma Goldman
So, A. Nony, Shut Up is the best suppressionist response you can muster? Thank you for proving my point and thanks for not following your advice to me. 
Shut up.
"The true thing is generally the extreme thing."
--Emma Goldman
So, A. Nony, Shut Up is the best suppressionist response you can muster? Thank you for proving my point and thanks for not following your advice to me.
I understand the emotional draw to arguing with "trolls," but you read that last comment by MesaMan, and if you can come to it "out of context," as I just did, you have to wonder:
why bother?
Heard an interesting analysis by a psychiatrist on NPR tonight. Rather commonplace, I thought, but clear enough. Seems they tested groups with a hypothetical Abu Ghraib question, about a soldier who thought the Geneva Convention was suspended, so he was free to torture prisoners. Gave the respondents varying degrees of evidence, from little support, to overwhelming support.
Turned out evidence didn't matter. 85% of the time, they could predict the response to the question: "Was this okay?" by first determing: do you favor Democrats, or the GOP? At least, that's how I remember it.
We don't think, IOW. We don't consider evidence. We respond from our chosen preference. All data fits what we want it to fit, whether it does or not. As Paul Simon said: "A man hears what he wants to hear, and disgregards the rest."
So, why do we argue with "trolls"? (I, the worst of the offenders, have escaped alive to ask thee.)
I understand the emotional draw to arguing with "trolls," but you read that last comment by MesaMan, and if you can come to it "out of context," as I just did, you have to wonder:
why bother?
Heard an interesting analysis by a psychiatrist on NPR tonight. Rather commonplace, I thought, but clear enough. Seems they tested groups with a hypothetical Abu Ghraib question, about a soldier who thought the Geneva Convention was suspended, so he was free to torture prisoners. Gave the respondents varying degrees of evidence, from little support, to overwhelming support.
Turned out evidence didn't matter. 85% of the time, they could predict the response to the question: "Was this okay?" by first determing: do you favor Democrats, or the GOP? At least, that's how I remember it.
We don't think, IOW. We don't consider evidence. We respond from our chosen preference. All data fits what we want it to fit, whether it does or not. As Paul Simon said: "A man hears what he wants to hear, and disgregards the rest."
So, why do we argue with "trolls"? (I, the worst of the offenders, have escaped alive to ask thee.)
From Previously linked profile of MEMRI co-founder
"In 1996 she helped write a report for Israel's Likud party that urged Israel to break off then-ongoing peace initiatives."
Writing reports for Likud sounds like a Likudnik. And by the way "Coauthors of the report included Richard Perle, David Wurmser, and Douglas Feith. "
Also "Meyrav Wurmser, an opponent of the Oslo peace accords and a central neoconservative figure, is a senior fellow at the right-wing Hudson Institute and a columnist for the Conrad Black-owned Jerusalem Post."
A Conrad Black shill taken seriously? That's scary.
From Previously linked profile of MEMRI co-founder
"In 1996 she helped write a report for Israel's Likud party that urged Israel to break off then-ongoing peace initiatives."
Writing reports for Likud sounds like a Likudnik. And by the way "Coauthors of the report included Richard Perle, David Wurmser, and Douglas Feith. "
Also "Meyrav Wurmser, an opponent of the Oslo peace accords and a central neoconservative figure, is a senior fellow at the right-wing Hudson Institute and a columnist for the Conrad Black-owned Jerusalem Post."
A Conrad Black shill taken seriously? That's scary.
http://www.antiwar.com/cole/?art...?
articleid=3467
paranoia or responsible journalism?
http://www.antiwar.com/cole/?art...?
articleid=3467
paranoia or responsible journalism?
Inaccurate?
You're more of an idiot than anyone else that has posting here.
What threats, dumbass. A SLAPP suit IS a lawsuit. WHERE is the fucking threat?!
Inaccurate?
You're more of an idiot than anyone else that has posting here.
What threats, dumbass. A SLAPP suit IS a lawsuit. WHERE is the fucking threat?!
MEMRI's job is to muddy the waters...
I think we're already in the Big Muddy up to our hips.
MEMRI's job is to muddy the waters...
I think we're already in the Big Muddy up to our hips.
As Paul Simon said: "A man hears what he wants to hear, and disgregards the rest."
My favorite Paul Simon song. Waylon Jennings did an awesome cover of it on one of the last albums he released before he died. I'm blanking out on the title at the moment, but the record's worth picking up.
As for your question, I find there's a multitude of reasons why I occasionaly respond to trolls. Sometimes, it's merely the thrill of mental excercise with the rare troll that, at least, can keep up sophistically. In other words, s/he may not feverently believe what s/he says, but s/he can at least put forth a good argument. And some, well...some make statements just so flat out dumb you can't help but respond. You gay-bashers, racists, facist fundies and other assorted knotheads.
And I've found that engaging such dingleberries online keeps me out of shouting matches when I hear the balderdash repeated by dipsticks in the "real world". And if nothing else about my personality has come through, I'd like to think y'all recognize that I'm a cat that enjoys life and would rather not waste time with doofuses. Online, at the very least, it's a temporary thing.
And, hell...from a Socratic point of view, it's a marvelous insight into how "the other side" thinks. Or doesn't think, as the case all too often seems to be. Personally, I don't care for tossing insults; snide comments, yes, but that's different. Ya don't learn anything when you're rejoinder is little more than "fuck you". But, as with many other things, that's just me.
As Paul Simon said: "A man hears what he wants to hear, and disgregards the rest."
My favorite Paul Simon song. Waylon Jennings did an awesome cover of it on one of the last albums he released before he died. I'm blanking out on the title at the moment, but the record's worth picking up.
As for your question, I find there's a multitude of reasons why I occasionaly respond to trolls. Sometimes, it's merely the thrill of mental excercise with the rare troll that, at least, can keep up sophistically. In other words, s/he may not feverently believe what s/he says, but s/he can at least put forth a good argument. And some, well...some make statements just so flat out dumb you can't help but respond. You gay-bashers, racists, facist fundies and other assorted knotheads.
And I've found that engaging such dingleberries online keeps me out of shouting matches when I hear the balderdash repeated by dipsticks in the "real world". And if nothing else about my personality has come through, I'd like to think y'all recognize that I'm a cat that enjoys life and would rather not waste time with doofuses. Online, at the very least, it's a temporary thing.
And, hell...from a Socratic point of view, it's a marvelous insight into how "the other side" thinks. Or doesn't think, as the case all too often seems to be. Personally, I don't care for tossing insults; snide comments, yes, but that's different. Ya don't learn anything when you're rejoinder is little more than "fuck you". But, as with many other things, that's just me.
And these fucking morons put faith in what Juan Cole says...
Answer the question, upyernoz;
WHERE is the THREAT?!
And these fucking morons put faith in what Juan Cole says...
Answer the question, upyernoz;
WHERE is the THREAT?!
Thersites - Not to mention that they are the party that has perfected the veteran smearjob. It's become an artform with them.
Hate. yeah. Rush Limbaugh has been broadcasting for over 20 years and it has been over 20 years of hate. Your side has expressed the intention of eradicating us.
Do not project that onto me, you son of a bitch. We are not hateful, we are defending ourselves. Eat shit and die.
Thersites - Not to mention that they are the party that has perfected the veteran smearjob. It's become an artform with them.
Hate. yeah. Rush Limbaugh has been broadcasting for over 20 years and it has been over 20 years of hate. Your side has expressed the intention of eradicating us.
Do not project that onto me, you son of a bitch. We are not hateful, we are defending ourselves. Eat shit and die.
good piece on cole/ MESA
What threats, dumbass. A SLAPP suit IS a lawsuit. WHERE is the fucking threat?!
paranoia or responsible journalism?
All way off-topic. Sad.
good piece on cole/ MESA
What threats, dumbass. A SLAPP suit IS a lawsuit. WHERE is the fucking threat?!
paranoia or responsible journalism?
All way off-topic. Sad.
Shit - that 2d part of my comment was not to you Thersites. I do that and I have confused people doing it - sorry.
Shit - that 2d part of my comment was not to you Thersites. I do that and I have confused people doing it - sorry.
What is offensive about this letter is that it is not only aimed at Cole himself but at his employer as well. This letter is alleging that they have been defamed/libeled somehow, yet they are unable to actually demonstrate how this damage was inflicted. Their complaint is vague, it also misinterprets what Cole was saying to boot. That is dishonest, and I must say if they are willing to be that openly dishonest in English with English speakers/readers, I must say it leaves me wondering exactly how honest they are in their translations from Arabic to English.
Worse, it looks like a naked attempt to silence someone that espouses a POV regarding the Arab/Israeli conflict that does not appear to match the POV of MEMRI regarding the nature of the threat and of the culture of opinion in the Arab media/press/culture. This is doubly offensive, in that first it attacks the freedom of diversity of opinion/perspective in the academic world, and it also attacks the open nature of the internet for freely disseminating information while at the same time using the exact same internet to disseminate it's own (MEMRI) message.
This attempt to silence Cole in this manner is indefensible to any honest believer in freedom of speech/thought as well as those that believe in critical thought and reasoning. It also unfortunately smacks of a tendency that has become increasingly obvious over the past several years...namely that to criticize current Israeli policy is somehow anti-Semitic, that to have any sympathy for the Arab world/society is also somehow anti-American.
This is the sort of behaviour one sees in a culture that is closed, not open, as America and Israel are supposed to be. It is also the path towards censorship/restriction of speech/thought along the lines that was present in the former USSR. This is *NOT* something I would think is something that would be welcome in a free society to those that actually believe in the importance of free speech, even speech that disagrees strongly with your own views.
In any event, this is obviously an attempt to silence a critic without any actual cause other than not liking what they are saying. Cole has not defamed or libeled MEMRI from anything that can be seen in their letter of complaint nor that of Cole's writings. I always thought the 1st Amendment was the one above all others that was seen to be the cornerstone of American society. As of the past few years I have come to question whether that is actually believed anymore by a sizable percentage of Americans. That is not something I find reassuring.
What is offensive about this letter is that it is not only aimed at Cole himself but at his employer as well. This letter is alleging that they have been defamed/libeled somehow, yet they are unable to actually demonstrate how this damage was inflicted. Their complaint is vague, it also misinterprets what Cole was saying to boot. That is dishonest, and I must say if they are willing to be that openly dishonest in English with English speakers/readers, I must say it leaves me wondering exactly how honest they are in their translations from Arabic to English.
Worse, it looks like a naked attempt to silence someone that espouses a POV regarding the Arab/Israeli conflict that does not appear to match the POV of MEMRI regarding the nature of the threat and of the culture of opinion in the Arab media/press/culture. This is doubly offensive, in that first it attacks the freedom of diversity of opinion/perspective in the academic world, and it also attacks the open nature of the internet for freely disseminating information while at the same time using the exact same internet to disseminate it's own (MEMRI) message.
This attempt to silence Cole in this manner is indefensible to any honest believer in freedom of speech/thought as well as those that believe in critical thought and reasoning. It also unfortunately smacks of a tendency that has become increasingly obvious over the past several years...namely that to criticize current Israeli policy is somehow anti-Semitic, that to have any sympathy for the Arab world/society is also somehow anti-American.
This is the sort of behaviour one sees in a culture that is closed, not open, as America and Israel are supposed to be. It is also the path towards censorship/restriction of speech/thought along the lines that was present in the former USSR. This is *NOT* something I would think is something that would be welcome in a free society to those that actually believe in the importance of free speech, even speech that disagrees strongly with your own views.
In any event, this is obviously an attempt to silence a critic without any actual cause other than not liking what they are saying. Cole has not defamed or libeled MEMRI from anything that can be seen in their letter of complaint nor that of Cole's writings. I always thought the 1st Amendment was the one above all others that was seen to be the cornerstone of American society. As of the past few years I have come to question whether that is actually believed anymore by a sizable percentage of Americans. That is not something I find reassuring.
good piece on cole/ MESA
What threats, dumbass. A SLAPP suit IS a lawsuit. WHERE is the fucking threat?!
paranoia or responsible journalism?
All way off-topic. Sad.
Thersites
(The above is a great example of someone who has no fucking clue.)
good piece on cole/ MESA
What threats, dumbass. A SLAPP suit IS a lawsuit. WHERE is the fucking threat?!
paranoia or responsible journalism?
All way off-topic. Sad.
Thersites
(The above is a great example of someone who has no fucking clue.)
When you can't improve on it, you gotta say it short and simple:
What Backslider said.
When you can't improve on it, you gotta say it short and simple:
What Backslider said.
Answer the question, upyernoz;
WHERE is the THREAT?!
If you will not do so, we will be forced to pursue legal action against you personally and against the University of Michigan, which the article identifies you as an employee of.
Boy, that was difficult.
Answer the question, upyernoz;
WHERE is the THREAT?!
If you will not do so, we will be forced to pursue legal action against you personally and against the University of Michigan, which the article identifies you as an employee of.
Boy, that was difficult.
So, A. Nony, Shut Up is the best suppressionist response you can muster? Thank you for proving my point and thanks for not following your advice to me
Shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up.
You shut up.
So, A. Nony, Shut Up is the best suppressionist response you can muster? Thank you for proving my point and thanks for not following your advice to me
Shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up.
You shut up.
Thersites
(The above is a great example of someone who has no fucking clue.)
A perfect example of what I was saying a moment ago, and of the Gospel admonition to remove the beam from you own eye, before removing the splinter from your brother's eye.
Don't you agree?
Thersites
(The above is a great example of someone who has no fucking clue.)
A perfect example of what I was saying a moment ago, and of the Gospel admonition to remove the beam from you own eye, before removing the splinter from your brother's eye.
Don't you agree?
Answer the question, upyernoz;
WHERE is the THREAT?!
If you will not do so, we will be forced to pursue legal action against you personally and against the University of Michigan, which the article identifies you as an employee of.
Boy, that was difficult.
The Kenosha Kid
Kenosha Kidmind, read what a fucking SLAPP letter is, it IS a FUCKING LAWSUIT.
WHERE is the THREAT?
ACTION WAS TAKEN!
There is NO threat, MORON!
Answer the question, upyernoz;
WHERE is the THREAT?!
If you will not do so, we will be forced to pursue legal action against you personally and against the University of Michigan, which the article identifies you as an employee of.
Boy, that was difficult.
The Kenosha Kid
Kenosha Kidmind, read what a fucking SLAPP letter is, it IS a FUCKING LAWSUIT.
WHERE is the THREAT?
ACTION WAS TAKEN!
There is NO threat, MORON!
the Gospel admonition to remove the beam from you own eye, before removing the splinter from your brother's eye.
Why don't you remove the jizz from your eye.
Har har har har har har har har
.
the Gospel admonition to remove the beam from you own eye, before removing the splinter from your brother's eye.
Why don't you remove the jizz from your eye.
Har har har har har har har har
.
Mr. Jeffers,
You are too kind, sir.
And, from what I understand - and believe you me, I have no dog whatsoever in this particular fight - MEMRI's SLAPP suit is on rather shaky ground, legally speaking. There's more folks floating around that are actual lawyer-type people who can and have explained it better. Frankly, what does MEMRI have to gain by suing Cole beyond maybe scaring anyone else who might think about criticizing 'em.
Mr. Jeffers,
You are too kind, sir.
And, from what I understand - and believe you me, I have no dog whatsoever in this particular fight - MEMRI's SLAPP suit is on rather shaky ground, legally speaking. There's more folks floating around that are actual lawyer-type people who can and have explained it better. Frankly, what does MEMRI have to gain by suing Cole beyond maybe scaring anyone else who might think about criticizing 'em.
Kenosha Kid--
"John F. Kerry" is determined to argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The distinction between "threat" and "lawsuit" is one of his/her/its own invention, which he/she/it insists is more valid and crucial than any other consideration.
Why, is the compeling question? It is truly a distinction without a difference, an insistence on technicality that doesn't exist anywhere except within the argument being advanced, which means "JFK" is, essentially, begging the question and trying to create a tautology which makes the argument impregnable, although all it is based on is: "Because I said so!"
Weird, really.
Kenosha Kid--
"John F. Kerry" is determined to argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The distinction between "threat" and "lawsuit" is one of his/her/its own invention, which he/she/it insists is more valid and crucial than any other consideration.
Why, is the compeling question? It is truly a distinction without a difference, an insistence on technicality that doesn't exist anywhere except within the argument being advanced, which means "JFK" is, essentially, begging the question and trying to create a tautology which makes the argument impregnable, although all it is based on is: "Because I said so!"
Weird, really.
Fucking, DUmb-asses....
Read the FUCKING LINKS PROVIDED, MORONS!
upyernoz, had too fucking much up his noz and wherever else...
Piss fucking poor post.
Duncan, I'm not impressed by this clown.
Fucking, DUmb-asses....
Read the FUCKING LINKS PROVIDED, MORONS!
upyernoz, had too fucking much up his noz and wherever else...
Piss fucking poor post.
Duncan, I'm not impressed by this clown.
Kenosha Kidmind, read what a fucking SLAPP letter is, it IS a FUCKING LAWSUIT.
WHERE is the THREAT?
ACTION WAS TAKEN!
There is NO threat, MORON!
Try reading it over from the beginning. Sounding out the big words might help.
Kenosha Kidmind, read what a fucking SLAPP letter is, it IS a FUCKING LAWSUIT.
WHERE is the THREAT?
ACTION WAS TAKEN!
There is NO threat, MORON!
Try reading it over from the beginning. Sounding out the big words might help.
The Boxer-the album is "Right for the Time"
The Boxer-the album is "Right for the Time"
Duncan, believe me.
upyernoz provided his own rope at his hanging!
Follow the links.
Duncan, believe me.
upyernoz provided his own rope at his hanging!
Follow the links.
Ah. The threat of a lawsuit is not the threat of a lawsuit.
Does our troll realize that he has just suborned himself?
No.
He is stupid. Thanks, though!
We'll be in touch.
Ah. The threat of a lawsuit is not the threat of a lawsuit.
Does our troll realize that he has just suborned himself?
No.
He is stupid. Thanks, though!
We'll be in touch.
Backslider--
Picking up on "JFK's" point, I'm not sure this is a suit, yet. Common practice is for a lawyer (never the client) to issue a letter before a suit is filed. In fact, you usually have to prove steps were taken to resolve the situation before a suit is filed.
This letter seems to constitute the barest beginning of that process, and clearly, its purpose is to freeze Professor Cole's blog postings with regards to MEMRI. Grounds, I think, from my memory of torts class (never handled a libel suit when I was practicing) have they none, largely because they'd never be able to prove damages (the hardest part of a libel or slander action).
Backslider--
Picking up on "JFK's" point, I'm not sure this is a suit, yet. Common practice is for a lawyer (never the client) to issue a letter before a suit is filed. In fact, you usually have to prove steps were taken to resolve the situation before a suit is filed.
This letter seems to constitute the barest beginning of that process, and clearly, its purpose is to freeze Professor Cole's blog postings with regards to MEMRI. Grounds, I think, from my memory of torts class (never handled a libel suit when I was practicing) have they none, largely because they'd never be able to prove damages (the hardest part of a libel or slander action).
All negros are lazy.
All negros are lazy.
hey JFK, maybe you should read more carefully. i never said MEMRI SLAPPed cole, i said they sent him a "SLAPP letter." a "SLAPP" is a lawsuit. a "SLAPP letter" is a letter threatening a SLAPP suit.
as kenosha kid pointed out, the letter threatened to take legal action. thus MEMRI threatened cole and the U of M with a SLAPP. therefore, the letter they sent was a SLAPP letter.
get it?
and there's no need to be insulting in your comments. ask a question if you want, but don't be an asshole
hey JFK, maybe you should read more carefully. i never said MEMRI SLAPPed cole, i said they sent him a "SLAPP letter." a "SLAPP" is a lawsuit. a "SLAPP letter" is a letter threatening a SLAPP suit.
as kenosha kid pointed out, the letter threatened to take legal action. thus MEMRI threatened cole and the U of M with a SLAPP. therefore, the letter they sent was a SLAPP letter.
get it?
and there's no need to be insulting in your comments. ask a question if you want, but don't be an asshole
upyernoz, I'll bet you are a negro.
upyernoz, I'll bet you are a negro.
Try reading it over from the beginning. Sounding out the big words might help.
The Kenosha Kid
DUmb-ass, I reread it adn reread all of the links, did you?!
A SLAPP letter is a lawsuit.
WHAT FUCKING THREAT?!
SLAPP letter link; http://www.fracturedjustice.com/....com/
slapp.html
"What that means in a nutshell is: A lawsuit is brought against an individual..."
WHERE IS THE FUCKING THREAT?
Action was taken, NO THREATS AT ALL!
Fucking, Dumb-ass!
It's in the courts, where is the threat?
Try reading it over from the beginning. Sounding out the big words might help.
The Kenosha Kid
DUmb-ass, I reread it adn reread all of the links, did you?!
A SLAPP letter is a lawsuit.
WHAT FUCKING THREAT?!
SLAPP letter link; http://www.fracturedjustice.com/....com/
slapp.html
"What that means in a nutshell is: A lawsuit is brought against an individual..."
WHERE IS THE FUCKING THREAT?
Action was taken, NO THREATS AT ALL!
Fucking, Dumb-ass!
It's in the courts, where is the threat?
I do like that R. Kelly, though.
I do like that R. Kelly, though.
Karin,
That's it, thanks. Good record, and Waymore's last good one. The follow-up had one too many "guest stars" and the live album he released right before he died sounded, well...like it was done by a very tired man. Which is what Waylon was around that time, bless his old heart.
Mr. Jeffers,
That's pretty much what I thought, though the extent of my legal knowledge comes from music industry law and old "Perry Mason" episodes. Seems to me if MEMRI really felt they had a case for slander/libel, we'd be seeing much more lawyer activity (and less posting about the subject from Cole). Is it just me, or does this sound very familiar to when that fruitcake Luskin threatened to sue the A-man over comments made in the comments section?
Darn those lawsuit-happy conservatives.
Ah. The threat of a lawsuit is not the threat of a lawsuit.
Does our troll realize that he has just suborned himself?
No.
He is stupid. Thanks, though!
We'll be in touch.
Thersites
DUMB-ASS READ THE FUCKING LINKS PROVIDED BY upyernoz!
Karin,
That's it, thanks. Good record, and Waymore's last good one. The follow-up had one too many "guest stars" and the live album he released right before he died sounded, well...like it was done by a very tired man. Which is what Waylon was around that time, bless his old heart.
Mr. Jeffers,
That's pretty much what I thought, though the extent of my legal knowledge comes from music industry law and old "Perry Mason" episodes. Seems to me if MEMRI really felt they had a case for slander/libel, we'd be seeing much more lawyer activity (and less posting about the subject from Cole). Is it just me, or does this sound very familiar to when that fruitcake Luskin threatened to sue the A-man over comments made in the comments section?
Darn those lawsuit-happy conservatives.
Ah. The threat of a lawsuit is not the threat of a lawsuit.
Does our troll realize that he has just suborned himself?
No.
He is stupid. Thanks, though!
We'll be in touch.
Thersites
DUMB-ASS READ THE FUCKING LINKS PROVIDED BY upyernoz!
Every once in a while a negro does something worthwhile.
Every once in a while a negro does something worthwhile.
Oh... mesaman sends us to a blog post chatting up Campus Watch, an organisation headed by Daniel Pipes, son of Richard Pipes.
*geesh* What were you guys saying about this being a family affair?
By the way Daniel Pipes is a signatory of PNAC, which tells ya how trustworthy he is.
Oh... mesaman sends us to a blog post chatting up Campus Watch, an organisation headed by Daniel Pipes, son of Richard Pipes.
*geesh* What were you guys saying about this being a family affair?
By the way Daniel Pipes is a signatory of PNAC, which tells ya how trustworthy he is.
It's in the courts,
Is it? Per Professor Cole's site, only a letter has been sent. No lawsuit has been filed, so far as can be determined at this point.
where is the threat?
In the letter, posted on Professor Cole's website.
Why is this even an issue?
It's in the courts,
Is it? Per Professor Cole's site, only a letter has been sent. No lawsuit has been filed, so far as can be determined at this point.
where is the threat?
In the letter, posted on Professor Cole's website.
Why is this even an issue?
Every once in a while a negro does something worthwhile.
John F. Kerry
Typical for a liberal....
Sly, is that you?
Every once in a while a negro does something worthwhile.
John F. Kerry
Typical for a liberal....
Sly, is that you?
Eddie Murphy is pretty funny, too.
Eddie Murphy is pretty funny, too.
Mr. Jeffers,
Recall, if you will, our discussion on trolls and responding to them. Witness above, a primo example of a troll that just isn't worth the bother.
Mr. Jeffers,
Recall, if you will, our discussion on trolls and responding to them. Witness above, a primo example of a troll that just isn't worth the bother.
It's in the courts,
Is it? Per Professor Cole's site, only a letter has been sent. No lawsuit has been filed, so far as can be determined at this point.
where is the threat?
In the letter, posted on Professor Cole's website.
Why is this even an issue?
Robert M. Jeffers
Robert, for once, pull your fucking head out of your ass and read the SLAPP letter link.
Get back to me after that.
It's in the courts,
Is it? Per Professor Cole's site, only a letter has been sent. No lawsuit has been filed, so far as can be determined at this point.
where is the threat?
In the letter, posted on Professor Cole's website.
Why is this even an issue?
Robert M. Jeffers
Robert, for once, pull your fucking head out of your ass and read the SLAPP letter link.
Get back to me after that.
It's not a lawsuit. If it was, Juan Cole would be saying "I got served with a complaint" rather than "I got a letter in my mail box" (a couple of weeks old BTW. Either he doesn't check his cubbyhole much, or the mail delivery is terrible, or Col. Carmon had trouble finding a stamp).
It's not a lawsuit. If it was, Juan Cole would be saying "I got served with a complaint" rather than "I got a letter in my mail box" (a couple of weeks old BTW. Either he doesn't check his cubbyhole much, or the mail delivery is terrible, or Col. Carmon had trouble finding a stamp).
Dr. Doolittle was hee-larious.
Dr. Doolittle 2 was pretty good, but not as good as the original.
Dr. Doolittle was hee-larious.
Dr. Doolittle 2 was pretty good, but not as good as the original.
I gotsta admit, I'm a sucker for talking animals.
I gotsta admit, I'm a sucker for talking animals.
Talking mammals, at least.
Talking bugs from Naked Lunch fuh-reaked my shit out.
Backslider--
Yup. As I said, I, the worst of offenders....
...plus, I plead extenuating circumstances, your Honor. It's late, and I'm prone to didacticism.
I throw myself on the mercy of the court!
(That is, unless this is just a threat, and we aren't in court yet. If the latter, then I say: Yar boo sucks!)
Talking mammals, at least.
Talking bugs from Naked Lunch fuh-reaked my shit out.
Backslider--
Yup. As I said, I, the worst of offenders....
...plus, I plead extenuating circumstances, your Honor. It's late, and I'm prone to didacticism.
I throw myself on the mercy of the court!
(That is, unless this is just a threat, and we aren't in court yet. If the latter, then I say: Yar boo sucks!)
I am fucking sucker for rich women!
I am fucking sucker for rich women!
hey JFK, it's interesting that you demanding i answer your question and then when i did, you ignore what i wrote.
and i suggest you read the "SLAPP letter link", maybe then you will realize the link defines the word "SLAPP" not "SLAPP letter."
hey JFK, it's interesting that you demanding i answer your question and then when i did, you ignore what i wrote.
and i suggest you read the "SLAPP letter link", maybe then you will realize the link defines the word "SLAPP" not "SLAPP letter."
It was weird how, in Naked Lunch, they, like, put a bunch of stuff in there from a bunch of different William S. Burroughs novels, not just Naked Lunch.
Speaking of William S. Burroughs, has anybody heard the "colaboration" between him and Kurt Cobain? Heard to find, but it's some wiggity-whacked out shit.
True dat.
It was weird how, in Naked Lunch, they, like, put a bunch of stuff in there from a bunch of different William S. Burroughs novels, not just Naked Lunch.
Speaking of William S. Burroughs, has anybody heard the "colaboration" between him and Kurt Cobain? Heard to find, but it's some wiggity-whacked out shit.
True dat.
Robert, for once, pull your fucking head out of your ass and read the SLAPP letter link.
As I said (but you ignored), this distinction you have created has no existence in reality. A "SLAPP suit" necessarily and logically excludes a "SLAPP threat"?
SLAPP is not even a technical or legal term. "Lawsuit" is a technical term. "Threat letter" is a technical term, or at least has a distinctive definition in law. "SLAPP" is merely a designation for a particular type of claim.
Now, if you have a link to Black's Law Dictionary or some other authority, maybe we can discuss this point. But just linking to any old website that purports to be the last word on what is nothing more than current usage, is, well, useless.
And if you can only respond with calumny and childish taunts, just quit responding, okay?
Robert, for once, pull your fucking head out of your ass and read the SLAPP letter link.
As I said (but you ignored), this distinction you have created has no existence in reality. A "SLAPP suit" necessarily and logically excludes a "SLAPP threat"?
SLAPP is not even a technical or legal term. "Lawsuit" is a technical term. "Threat letter" is a technical term, or at least has a distinctive definition in law. "SLAPP" is merely a designation for a particular type of claim.
Now, if you have a link to Black's Law Dictionary or some other authority, maybe we can discuss this point. But just linking to any old website that purports to be the last word on what is nothing more than current usage, is, well, useless.
And if you can only respond with calumny and childish taunts, just quit responding, okay?
Wow. I'm glad I could make it to the inaugural ball. I'll come back later with the ol' troll-shit boots on and hang out with the clean-up crew.
Goodl luck upyernosz!
Wow. I'm glad I could make it to the inaugural ball. I'll come back later with the ol' troll-shit boots on and hang out with the clean-up crew.
Goodl luck upyernosz!
and i suggest you read the "SLAPP letter link", maybe then you will realize the link defines the word "SLAPP" not "SLAPP letter."
upyernoz
I suggest you reread the fucking link and admit your fucking stupid by providing the rope for your own hanging.
What did I saw the first post? SLAPP suit! Game, set and fucking match, dipshit.
God damn, Duncan!
This idiot is too easy!
and i suggest you read the "SLAPP letter link", maybe then you will realize the link defines the word "SLAPP" not "SLAPP letter."
upyernoz
I suggest you reread the fucking link and admit your fucking stupid by providing the rope for your own hanging.
What did I saw the first post? SLAPP suit! Game, set and fucking match, dipshit.
God damn, Duncan!
This idiot is too easy!
Backslider--
As I said, extenuating circumstances. And didacticism.
But rather than seek the mercy of the court, I'll seek the mercy of the arms of Morpheus. (No, not the Matrix!)
'Night, all.
Backslider--
As I said, extenuating circumstances. And didacticism.
But rather than seek the mercy of the court, I'll seek the mercy of the arms of Morpheus. (No, not the Matrix!)
'Night, all.
Speaking of Cobain, did y'all know that he didn't really kill himself?
He was totally murdered, man. I know it sounds wacky, but it's true. There's like zero evidence indicating a suicide, and much that indicates a homicide.
Check it out:
www.cobaincase.com
Speaking of Cobain, did y'all know that he didn't really kill himself?
He was totally murdered, man. I know it sounds wacky, but it's true. There's like zero evidence indicating a suicide, and much that indicates a homicide.
Check it out:
www.cobaincase.com
Meanwhile, back at the game.
From CNN
"We have significant forces over there, and the Iraqi forces are growing larger and stronger by the day, and hopefully we'll be able to impose order in the Sunni Triangle," Powell said.
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Iraq's interim defense minister was quoted by an Arabic-language newspaper Tuesday as saying he cannot guarantee the safety of voters or candidates in the country's elections scheduled for January 30.
Okay everyone a chorus of "Yes We Have No Bananas, We have no bananas today."
Meanwhile, back at the game.
From CNN
"We have significant forces over there, and the Iraqi forces are growing larger and stronger by the day, and hopefully we'll be able to impose order in the Sunni Triangle," Powell said.
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Iraq's interim defense minister was quoted by an Arabic-language newspaper Tuesday as saying he cannot guarantee the safety of voters or candidates in the country's elections scheduled for January 30.
Okay everyone a chorus of "Yes We Have No Bananas, We have no bananas today."
What did I saw the first post? SLAPP suit! Game, set and fucking match, dipshit.
wow. i really wish i could respond to you coherently, but you've given me nothing coherent to work with here.
What did I saw the first post? SLAPP suit! Game, set and fucking match, dipshit.
wow. i really wish i could respond to you coherently, but you've given me nothing coherent to work with here.
SLAPP is not even a technical or legal term. "Lawsuit" is a technical term.
Robert M. Jeffers
Robert,
Did you even look at the link provided? Here is what it says;
SLAPP stands for "Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation"
http://www.fracturedjustice.com/....com/
slapp.html
IDIOT....
SLAPP is not even a technical or legal term. "Lawsuit" is a technical term.
Robert M. Jeffers
Robert,
Did you even look at the link provided? Here is what it says;
SLAPP stands for "Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation"
http://www.fracturedjustice.com/....com/
slapp.html
IDIOT....
Mr. Jeffers,
I understand. Sometimes a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. Me, I just wonder why he keeps refering to Atrios when the A-man's on his way to Spain at the moment.
Mr. Jeffers,
I understand. Sometimes a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. Me, I just wonder why he keeps refering to Atrios when the A-man's on his way to Spain at the moment.
Are you all that fucking blind?
If so, god help you, Duncan.
Are you all that fucking blind?
If so, god help you, Duncan.
Speaking of suicide, I used to feel like killing myself sometimes.
Then I started taking Prozac, and I got better.
Speaking of Prozac, have y'all read Prozac Nation by Elizabeth Wurtzel (sp?)? It's "da bomb".
I heard they made a movie of it. Haven't seen that. Put it on my list, ya know what I'm sayin'?
Speaking of suicide, I used to feel like killing myself sometimes.
Then I started taking Prozac, and I got better.
Speaking of Prozac, have y'all read Prozac Nation by Elizabeth Wurtzel (sp?)? It's "da bomb".
I heard they made a movie of it. Haven't seen that. Put it on my list, ya know what I'm sayin'?
SLAPP stands for "Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation"
http://www.fracturedjustice.com/....com/
slapp.html
Lessee...Black's Law Dictionary? No. Something called "fractured justice."
Yeah. Real authoritative. You are straining at gnats and swallowing camels.
The real question is: why are you so exercised over something so completely insignificant? You can't even prove your point, except by pointing to your own assertions. Your argument is groundless, and when you realize that, you fall back on childish schoolyard insults.
I don't think "upyernoz" is the one with the problem, here.
SLAPP stands for "Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation"
http://www.fracturedjustice.com/....com/
slapp.html
Lessee...Black's Law Dictionary? No. Something called "fractured justice."
Yeah. Real authoritative. You are straining at gnats and swallowing camels.
The real question is: why are you so exercised over something so completely insignificant? You can't even prove your point, except by pointing to your own assertions. Your argument is groundless, and when you realize that, you fall back on childish schoolyard insults.
I don't think "upyernoz" is the one with the problem, here.
SLAPP is not even a technical or legal term. "Lawsuit" is a technical term.
Robert M. Jeffers
Robert,
Did you even look at the link provided? Here is what it says;
SLAPP stands for "Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation"
yes, but does the link say SLAPP is a technical term? does it say what a SLAPP letter is? does it say anything that supports whatever point you're trying to make?
SLAPP is not even a technical or legal term. "Lawsuit" is a technical term.
Robert M. Jeffers
Robert,
Did you even look at the link provided? Here is what it says;
SLAPP stands for "Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation"
yes, but does the link say SLAPP is a technical term? does it say what a SLAPP letter is? does it say anything that supports whatever point you're trying to make?
I get my mind altering drugs from my wife. The rich moonbat!
She almost fell into the Grand Canyon!
I get my mind altering drugs from my wife. The rich moonbat!
She almost fell into the Grand Canyon!
This stand up comedian dude, I assume he's one of those, "did you ever notice how the arabs..."
This stand up comedian dude, I assume he's one of those, "did you ever notice how the arabs..."
JFK -- I don't normally jump in like this, but I'm concerned about you. If you have any desire to achieve clarity, you could begin by dropping the insults. That will lower your frustration threshhold a bit . . .
JFK -- I don't normally jump in like this, but I'm concerned about you. If you have any desire to achieve clarity, you could begin by dropping the insults. That will lower your frustration threshhold a bit . . .
Are you all that fucking blind?
If so, god help you, Duncan.
John F. Kerry | Email | Homepage | 11.24.04 - 12:34 am | #
So, you're this bent out of shape over what boils down to legalese mumbo-jumbo and semantics? Good gravy.
And dude...Atrios is heading for Spain. He can't hear you.
Are you all that fucking blind?
If so, god help you, Duncan.
John F. Kerry | Email | Homepage | 11.24.04 - 12:34 am | #
So, you're this bent out of shape over what boils down to legalese mumbo-jumbo and semantics? Good gravy.
And dude...Atrios is heading for Spain. He can't hear you.
does it say what a SLAPP letter is?
upyernoz
Reread YOUR link.
What is a SLAPP Suit?
SLAPP stands for "Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation"
What that means in a nutshell is: A lawsuit is brought against an individual or organization to basically "shut them up".
...........
http://www.fracturedjustice.com/....com/
slapp.html
If you cannot see it, I pity Duncan...
does it say what a SLAPP letter is?
upyernoz
Reread YOUR link.
What is a SLAPP Suit?
SLAPP stands for "Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation"
What that means in a nutshell is: A lawsuit is brought against an individual or organization to basically "shut them up".
...........
http://www.fracturedjustice.com/....com/
slapp.html
If you cannot see it, I pity Duncan...
JFK -- I don't normally jump in like this, but I'm concerned about you. If you have any desire to achieve clarity, you could begin by dropping the insults. That will lower your frustration threshhold a bit . . .
cs
I am only wanting to do Duncan a favor by trying to save his blog from a moron who posts links that hang his own ass.
I enjoy this actually. And I am a registered democrat.
JFK -- I don't normally jump in like this, but I'm concerned about you. If you have any desire to achieve clarity, you could begin by dropping the insults. That will lower your frustration threshhold a bit . . .
cs
I am only wanting to do Duncan a favor by trying to save his blog from a moron who posts links that hang his own ass.
I enjoy this actually. And I am a registered democrat.
"A man hears what he wants to hear, and disgregards the rest..ooh la la la...."
The rumors of my departure having been greatly exaggerated, I finally make them true.
Peace, love, woodstock, y'all.....
"A man hears what he wants to hear, and disgregards the rest..ooh la la la...."
The rumors of my departure having been greatly exaggerated, I finally make them true.
Peace, love, woodstock, y'all.....
I've seen meth heads with greater mental clarity than this "JFK" troll.
It's interesting to watch it writhe and spin, though.
I've seen meth heads with greater mental clarity than this "JFK" troll.
It's interesting to watch it writhe and spin, though.
So, you're this bent out of shape over what boils down to legalese mumbo-jumbo and semantics?
That's what trolls do when they don't have a point.
You know, the more I look at this the more I wonder why exactly Memri went public against Cole.
A lot of Memri's act relies on their being perceived as "non-partisan" and now that they're attacking Cole (whom most people haven't even heard of) their ties to the right are going to be brought out into the open.
It seems like a stupid move on their part but I can't help but wonder if maybe it's a bit of part of the right's general momentum to purge any expert/academic that doesn't toe their line 100%. Powell's gone. They're purging the CIA and presumably the State Department and they're simultaneously going after academia.
So, you're this bent out of shape over what boils down to legalese mumbo-jumbo and semantics?
That's what trolls do when they don't have a point.
You know, the more I look at this the more I wonder why exactly Memri went public against Cole.
A lot of Memri's act relies on their being perceived as "non-partisan" and now that they're attacking Cole (whom most people haven't even heard of) their ties to the right are going to be brought out into the open.
It seems like a stupid move on their part but I can't help but wonder if maybe it's a bit of part of the right's general momentum to purge any expert/academic that doesn't toe their line 100%. Powell's gone. They're purging the CIA and presumably the State Department and they're simultaneously going after academia.
Oh, and don't mention to "JFK" that Atrios was supposed to leave the keys to the liquor cabinet where I can find them when I get back home Friday night, okay?
He might just implode, and I wouldn't want that on my conscience.....
Oh, and don't mention to "JFK" that Atrios was supposed to leave the keys to the liquor cabinet where I can find them when I get back home Friday night, okay?
He might just implode, and I wouldn't want that on my conscience.....
I am only wanting to do Duncan a favor by trying to save his blog from a moron who posts links that hang his own ass.
Yeah, you're generosity and concern, in this matter and in the past, shines out like a stream of bat's piss in a dark night. One could readily notice your good intend by the calm, coherent and, above all, friendly way you leaped into this particular discussion.
I'm ashamed I even thought of doubting you for even a second.
I am only wanting to do Duncan a favor by trying to save his blog from a moron who posts links that hang his own ass.
Yeah, you're generosity and concern, in this matter and in the past, shines out like a stream of bat's piss in a dark night. One could readily notice your good intend by the calm, coherent and, above all, friendly way you leaped into this particular discussion.
I'm ashamed I even thought of doubting you for even a second.
SLAPP stands for "Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation"
http://www.fracturedjustice.com/....com/
slapp.html
Lessee...Black's Law Dictionary? No. Something called "fractured justice."
Yeah. Real authoritative. You are straining at gnats and swallowing camels.
The real question is: why are you so exercised over something so completely insignificant? You can't even prove your point, except by pointing to your own assertions. Your argument is groundless, and when you realize that, you fall back on childish schoolyard insults.
I don't think "upyernoz" is the one with the problem, here.
Robert M. Jeffers
upyernoz provided the link, idiot.
Catch-22 for upyernoz. YOU just proved it!
GET RID OF THIS CLOWN, Duncan!
SLAPP stands for "Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation"
http://www.fracturedjustice.com/....com/
slapp.html
Lessee...Black's Law Dictionary? No. Something called "fractured justice."
Yeah. Real authoritative. You are straining at gnats and swallowing camels.
The real question is: why are you so exercised over something so completely insignificant? You can't even prove your point, except by pointing to your own assertions. Your argument is groundless, and when you realize that, you fall back on childish schoolyard insults.
I don't think "upyernoz" is the one with the problem, here.
Robert M. Jeffers
upyernoz provided the link, idiot.
Catch-22 for upyernoz. YOU just proved it!
GET RID OF THIS CLOWN, Duncan!
And I am a registered democrat.
Hang on a sec--will you repost that in, like, 30 seconds? I want to be drinking a glass of milk when I read it, to really capture the comedic moment.
And I am a registered democrat.
Hang on a sec--will you repost that in, like, 30 seconds? I want to be drinking a glass of milk when I read it, to really capture the comedic moment.
round and round we go. here's my last shot to reason with JFK before i go to sleep:
(1) my post says cole got a SLAPP letter, not that he was sued.
(2) because not everyone would know what a "SLAPP letter" was, i created a link to explain what "SLAPP" stands for.
(3) i assumed that the read would figure out that the definition was of SLAPP not SLAPP letter. i think i was 99% correct on that assumption
(4) nothing in my post says cole was sued, only that he was threatened to be sued
and robert is right. SLAPP is not a real technical term. it's just an acronym developed as a kind of slang to refer to a kind or lawsuit.
and JFK, don't pity duncan, pity me for trying to reason with you
round and round we go. here's my last shot to reason with JFK before i go to sleep:
(1) my post says cole got a SLAPP letter, not that he was sued.
(2) because not everyone would know what a "SLAPP letter" was, i created a link to explain what "SLAPP" stands for.
(3) i assumed that the read would figure out that the definition was of SLAPP not SLAPP letter. i think i was 99% correct on that assumption
(4) nothing in my post says cole was sued, only that he was threatened to be sued
and robert is right. SLAPP is not a real technical term. it's just an acronym developed as a kind of slang to refer to a kind or lawsuit.
and JFK, don't pity duncan, pity me for trying to reason with you
Ah, you enjoy hurling insults . . . Well then, never mind.
Ah, you enjoy hurling insults . . . Well then, never mind.
SWR,
Like I said, it reminds me of when Luskin got his britches in a bundle over some crack in the Eschaton comments section (if I recall correctly, anyway). "Man says bad things about us, we sue if man not take back bad things". I imagine, depending on the depths of one's pockets, it can be a useful intimidation technique.
SWR,
Like I said, it reminds me of when Luskin got his britches in a bundle over some crack in the Eschaton comments section (if I recall correctly, anyway). "Man says bad things about us, we sue if man not take back bad things". I imagine, depending on the depths of one's pockets, it can be a useful intimidation technique.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens.
And I am a registered democrat.
(how's that?)
And I am a registered democrat.
(how's that?)
Like I said, it reminds me of when Luskin got his britches in a bundle over some crack in the Eschaton comments section (if I recall correctly, anyway). "Man says bad things about us, we sue if man not take back bad things". I imagine, depending on the depths of one's pockets, it can be a useful intimidation technique
You know what the real mindfuck about the whole issue of the wacky, anti-semitic Saudi press is?
Memri has ties to the Bush administration and the Bush administration has ties to both the anti-semites in the Saudi government and the wingnut Israeli right.
I just wonder how all of those people get along together.
Like I said, it reminds me of when Luskin got his britches in a bundle over some crack in the Eschaton comments section (if I recall correctly, anyway). "Man says bad things about us, we sue if man not take back bad things". I imagine, depending on the depths of one's pockets, it can be a useful intimidation technique
You know what the real mindfuck about the whole issue of the wacky, anti-semitic Saudi press is?
Memri has ties to the Bush administration and the Bush administration has ties to both the anti-semites in the Saudi government and the wingnut Israeli right.
I just wonder how all of those people get along together.
Hang on a sec--will you repost that in, like, 30 seconds? I want to be drinking a glass of milk when I read it, to really capture the comedic moment.
grr
I am.
Want to hear something even more funny?
Both parties have moved left, I stayed the same.
I always liked Sam Nunn and Zell Miller. The "ole" democrats. Not the garbage running now.
I voted for it, before I voted against it.
I'm reporting for duty.
Give me a fucking break. Where has he been the last twenty years in the Senate?
Hang on a sec--will you repost that in, like, 30 seconds? I want to be drinking a glass of milk when I read it, to really capture the comedic moment.
grr
I am.
Want to hear something even more funny?
Both parties have moved left, I stayed the same.
I always liked Sam Nunn and Zell Miller. The "ole" democrats. Not the garbage running now.
I voted for it, before I voted against it.
I'm reporting for duty.
Give me a fucking break. Where has he been the last twenty years in the Senate?
I see upyernoz got lost now.
I think I proved my point.
Next time upyernoz, don't provide the rope for your own hanging....
I see upyernoz got lost now.
I think I proved my point.
Next time upyernoz, don't provide the rope for your own hanging....
"Man says bad things about us, we sue if man not take back bad things".
If Johnny Weissmuller, as Tarzan, went to law school, that's how he would say it.
"Man says bad things about us, we sue if man not take back bad things".
If Johnny Weissmuller, as Tarzan, went to law school, that's how he would say it.
Where has he been the last twenty years in the Senate?
When you're losing the debate, the best tactic is to change the subject.
G'night all.
Where has he been the last twenty years in the Senate?
When you're losing the debate, the best tactic is to change the subject.
G'night all.
don't provide the rope for your own hanging....
That sure is a clever line, innit?
I'll keep using it, to make sure everyone understands how clever it is.
don't provide the rope for your own hanging....
That sure is a clever line, innit?
I'll keep using it, to make sure everyone understands how clever it is.
I'll keep using it, to make sure everyone understands how clever it is.
John F. Kerry
LMFAO! Jack-ass, we could drink beer together.
Good night, all.
I'll keep using it, to make sure everyone understands how clever it is.
John F. Kerry
LMFAO! Jack-ass, we could drink beer together.
Good night, all.
I just wonder how all of those people get along together.
SWR | Email | Homepage | 11.24.04 - 12:49 am | #
Hey, money makes the world go round, brother. Find out who's getting paid and you'll find the path to truth.
I just wonder how all of those people get along together.
SWR | Email | Homepage | 11.24.04 - 12:49 am | #
Hey, money makes the world go round, brother. Find out who's getting paid and you'll find the path to truth.
Osamabinlazy, is that you? Do ya like "old school" Democrats like George Wallace, Ross Barnett and Lester Maddox, too?
Osamabinlazy, is that you? Do ya like "old school" Democrats like George Wallace, Ross Barnett and Lester Maddox, too?
(still laughing, hoping the troll is hopped up on enough meth so I don't have to watch the Daily Show repeat)
Attack John Stewart now! C'mon, do a bit about the "liberal media"!
(still laughing, hoping the troll is hopped up on enough meth so I don't have to watch the Daily Show repeat)
Attack John Stewart now! C'mon, do a bit about the "liberal media"!
Osamabinlazy, is that you? Do ya like "old school" Democrats like George Wallace, Ross Barnett and Lester Maddox, too?
Don't forget Theodore G. Bilbo and John Rankin.
Gee, you think that some Arab or European equivalent of Memri could publish some of Bilbo, Rankin, and, on a bit of a more high-brow level, Henry Cabot Lodge's more racist tracts and use them to alert the world to the virulence of the American Protestant mind.
And lest anybody say that they're a thing of the past, I give you James Dobson and 12 anti-gay marriage initiatives.
Osamabinlazy, is that you? Do ya like "old school" Democrats like George Wallace, Ross Barnett and Lester Maddox, too?
Don't forget Theodore G. Bilbo and John Rankin.
Gee, you think that some Arab or European equivalent of Memri could publish some of Bilbo, Rankin, and, on a bit of a more high-brow level, Henry Cabot Lodge's more racist tracts and use them to alert the world to the virulence of the American Protestant mind.
And lest anybody say that they're a thing of the past, I give you James Dobson and 12 anti-gay marriage initiatives.
SWR - I'd refer to MEMRI and Campus Watch as "United Front" organisations. A small group of cadres that create a bunch of front organisations claiming to be independent and non-partisan. They try to muddy their connections to their sponsoring Party, while trying to act as an independent non-partisan supporter of the Party line.
The reason the trolls have been bashing hard on this thread is because it's a prominent blog that exposes one of their "United Front" organisations for what it really is. Possible loss of credibility for a Party propaganda mouthpiece is serious business.
SWR - I'd refer to MEMRI and Campus Watch as "United Front" organisations. A small group of cadres that create a bunch of front organisations claiming to be independent and non-partisan. They try to muddy their connections to their sponsoring Party, while trying to act as an independent non-partisan supporter of the Party line.
The reason the trolls have been bashing hard on this thread is because it's a prominent blog that exposes one of their "United Front" organisations for what it really is. Possible loss of credibility for a Party propaganda mouthpiece is serious business.
she's one to listen to, folks!
she's one to listen to, folks!
she's one to listen to, folks!
she's one to listen to, folks!
SWR - I'd refer to MEMRI and Campus Watch as "United Front" organisations. A small group of cadres that create a bunch of front organisations claiming to be independent and non-partisan. They try to muddy their connections to their sponsoring Party, while trying to act as an independent non-partisan supporter of the Party line.
After 2004, what exactly is the purpose of groups like Memri anymore anyway?
The Labor Party in Israel and the Democratic Party in the USA are fucked beyond repair. Oslo is dead. We've got troops in Iraq and we're currently in the process of flattening most of the "Sunni Triangle".
Post 9/11, most Americans hate Arabs anyway. It's not as though the typical Catholic guy in a bar in New Jersey somewhere loves Muslims.
The only thing they really have left now is academia. Oh, right. They want to purge that. Nevermind.
SWR - I'd refer to MEMRI and Campus Watch as "United Front" organisations. A small group of cadres that create a bunch of front organisations claiming to be independent and non-partisan. They try to muddy their connections to their sponsoring Party, while trying to act as an independent non-partisan supporter of the Party line.
After 2004, what exactly is the purpose of groups like Memri anymore anyway?
The Labor Party in Israel and the Democratic Party in the USA are fucked beyond repair. Oslo is dead. We've got troops in Iraq and we're currently in the process of flattening most of the "Sunni Triangle".
Post 9/11, most Americans hate Arabs anyway. It's not as though the typical Catholic guy in a bar in New Jersey somewhere loves Muslims.
The only thing they really have left now is academia. Oh, right. They want to purge that. Nevermind.
Oops! Sorry about the double postings.
Also, Tom is making a lot of sense here. Take note.
Oops! Sorry about the double postings.
Also, Tom is making a lot of sense here. Take note.
Sorry Karin, but I'm just not convinced that you in fact rule.
.
Sorry Karin, but I'm just not convinced that you in fact rule.
.
Just to clarify, I am not Karin and I didn't mean to make her look bad in any way shape or form. I was just trying to point out I agree with her postings. That's all.
Just to clarify, I am not Karin and I didn't mean to make her look bad in any way shape or form. I was just trying to point out I agree with her postings. That's all.
so what music have you guys been listening to lately?
so what music have you guys been listening to lately?
so what music have you guys been listening to lately?
Louis XIV.
so what music have you guys been listening to lately?
Louis XIV.
Put your money where your mouth is!
Put your money where your mouth is!
so what music have you guys been listening to lately?
Right now, Mott The Hoople's double-disc retrospective. In general, lots of rock & roll from the '50s, '60s and '70s, made by country boys who didn't realize the whole Beatles-San Francisco-psychadelic thing happened. Stuff like Charlie Rich and Narvel Felts and Jumpin' Gene Simmons. Good shit and I'm currently obsessed with it.
so what music have you guys been listening to lately?
Right now, Mott The Hoople's double-disc retrospective. In general, lots of rock & roll from the '50s, '60s and '70s, made by country boys who didn't realize the whole Beatles-San Francisco-psychadelic thing happened. Stuff like Charlie Rich and Narvel Felts and Jumpin' Gene Simmons. Good shit and I'm currently obsessed with it.
so what music have you guys been listening to lately?
Ashley Stove.
Great records, love their stuff -- horrible, horrible band name. Oh well.
so what music have you guys been listening to lately?
Ashley Stove.
Great records, love their stuff -- horrible, horrible band name. Oh well.
so what music have you guys been listening to lately?
Percy Hill is always in the rotation. One of the best bands that no one's heard of.
so what music have you guys been listening to lately?
Percy Hill is always in the rotation. One of the best bands that no one's heard of.
Did you bother to read "atrios" during the run up to the election? It was a non-stop propaganda mill. These guys are a political pump and dump operation for the Kerry boys. If you don't understand how a shop like "atrios" works, you laughably naive.
Did you bother to read "atrios" during the run up to the election? It was a non-stop propaganda mill. These guys are a political pump and dump operation for the Kerry boys. If you don't understand how a shop like "atrios" works, you laughably naive.
hat's funny.
hat's funny.
hat's funny.
Olaf glad and big | Email | Homepage | 11.24.04 - 2:35 am | #
He's up past his bedtime, too. I still can't figure out why he puts "atrios" in quotation marks.
hat's funny.
Olaf glad and big | Email | Homepage | 11.24.04 - 2:35 am | #
He's up past his bedtime, too. I still can't figure out why he puts "atrios" in quotation marks.
I'm a little surprised we didn't go to the Wiki definition of SLAPP, because let's face it, Wiki rules!
It is a rare occasion, my friends, when the Wikster does not reward my search justly!
I'm a little surprised we didn't go to the Wiki definition of SLAPP, because let's face it, Wiki rules!
It is a rare occasion, my friends, when the Wikster does not reward my search justly!
I remember when hat made a comeback at me three days after I posted something in a thread.
You are my bitch, hat.
Who's your daddy?
I remember when hat made a comeback at me three days after I posted something in a thread.
You are my bitch, hat.
Who's your daddy?
I got a big chuckle out of Daniel Pipes' spittle-flecked condemnation of 'The Power of Nightmares', which, curiously enough, didn't mention that it prominently featured... his dad. Speaking freely and openly about his role in 'Team B'. Obviously the tissue of lies included his poppy, yes?
Fuckwit. Like the astonishingly dumb dumbfucks that troll here.
I got a big chuckle out of Daniel Pipes' spittle-flecked condemnation of 'The Power of Nightmares', which, curiously enough, didn't mention that it prominently featured... his dad. Speaking freely and openly about his role in 'Team B'. Obviously the tissue of lies included his poppy, yes?
Fuckwit. Like the astonishingly dumb dumbfucks that troll here.
It's not as though the typical Catholic guy in a bar in New Jersey somewhere loves Muslims.
Nah, though the same typical Catholic guy probably stuck a few dollars in the hat 'for the Cause' through the 80s, when the IRA was busily blowing and shooting up bars in Northern Ireland. I've been in some of those Irish bars in north Jersey. Fucking disgusting.
It's not as though the typical Catholic guy in a bar in New Jersey somewhere loves Muslims.
Nah, though the same typical Catholic guy probably stuck a few dollars in the hat 'for the Cause' through the 80s, when the IRA was busily blowing and shooting up bars in Northern Ireland. I've been in some of those Irish bars in north Jersey. Fucking disgusting.
i've never been to any irish bars in jersey, but i'm guessing they are similar to the ones in boston.
i've never been to any irish bars in jersey, but i'm guessing they are similar to the ones in boston.
Oh yes... I'd forgotten about Noraid. can we in the UK invade the US, because you guys were funding terrorism and weapons of mass destruction against us and your government did bugger-all to stop it?
If so, I claim Vermont for my personal fiefdom.
Oh yes... I'd forgotten about Noraid. can we in the UK invade the US, because you guys were funding terrorism and weapons of mass destruction against us and your government did bugger-all to stop it?
If so, I claim Vermont for my personal fiefdom.
"Tom - Daai Tou Laam" I sent you to Martin Kramers site, not Daniel Pipes. But I'm glad to hear you know "all you need to know" about Daniel Pipes from his involvement in PNAC. Speaks volumes. I'm guessing you have a shoe-shaped hole in your television set.
The topic of MESA is germane to the topic of censorship and Juan Cole, and the reason you should read the Kramer site. But people who think that eliminationists like Cole allies Khalidi and Massad are 'moderates' will undoubtedly not be swayed.
another good piece on MESA (look no PIpes!)
Why cole is full of crap on Iraq (no PIpes!)
"Tom - Daai Tou Laam" I sent you to Martin Kramers site, not Daniel Pipes. But I'm glad to hear you know "all you need to know" about Daniel Pipes from his involvement in PNAC. Speaks volumes. I'm guessing you have a shoe-shaped hole in your television set.
The topic of MESA is germane to the topic of censorship and Juan Cole, and the reason you should read the Kramer site. But people who think that eliminationists like Cole allies Khalidi and Massad are 'moderates' will undoubtedly not be swayed.
another good piece on MESA (look no PIpes!)
Why cole is full of crap on Iraq (no PIpes!)
'Whining Dabashi. A Columbia grad student wrote to MEALAC chair Hamid Dabashi, to tell him that his recent travelogue to Israel, published in Al-Ahram Weekly, was a "revolting excerpt of anti-semitism." (Here in the Sandbox, I also described one passage from that piece as antisemitic; see entry of Sept. 25.) The ever-theatrical Dabashi wrote this to Columbia's provost, Alan Brinkley: "I would be grateful if Columbia Security were to be informed of this slanderous attack against my character and appropriate measures taken to protect my person from a potential attack by a militant slanderer." (Dabashi said he would not go to the police, "for the time being.") Brinkley replied to Dabashi that there was "nothing threatening" in the letter, and added: "You are no stranger to controversy... This is one of the unhappy prices of a public life, and I would recommend ignoring [the student]." Dabashi played the cry-baby, so the provost changed his diaper. Story at link. '
'Whining Dabashi. A Columbia grad student wrote to MEALAC chair Hamid Dabashi, to tell him that his recent travelogue to Israel, published in Al-Ahram Weekly, was a "revolting excerpt of anti-semitism." (Here in the Sandbox, I also described one passage from that piece as antisemitic; see entry of Sept. 25.) The ever-theatrical Dabashi wrote this to Columbia's provost, Alan Brinkley: "I would be grateful if Columbia Security were to be informed of this slanderous attack against my character and appropriate measures taken to protect my person from a potential attack by a militant slanderer." (Dabashi said he would not go to the police, "for the time being.") Brinkley replied to Dabashi that there was "nothing threatening" in the letter, and added: "You are no stranger to controversy... This is one of the unhappy prices of a public life, and I would recommend ignoring [the student]." Dabashi played the cry-baby, so the provost changed his diaper. Story at link. '
'More from the execrable travelogue (see below) of Hamid Dabashi, the Hagop Kevorkian Professor of Iranian Studies at Columbia. "What they call 'Israel' is no mere military state. A subsumed militarism, a systemic mendacity with an ingrained violence constitutional to the very fusion of its fabric, has penetrated the deepest corners of what these people have to call their 'soul'." Now how did Dabashi manage to glimpse into the deepest corners of the non-soul of the so-called "Israelis"? He doesn't know Hebrew. On his trip to the West Bank, he skipped all of Israel except the airport. He didn't have a single encounter with an Israeli who wasn't on security detail. Yet he presumes to know what resides in Israel's "deepest corners."
'More from the execrable travelogue (see below) of Hamid Dabashi, the Hagop Kevorkian Professor of Iranian Studies at Columbia. "What they call 'Israel' is no mere military state. A subsumed militarism, a systemic mendacity with an ingrained violence constitutional to the very fusion of its fabric, has penetrated the deepest corners of what these people have to call their 'soul'." Now how did Dabashi manage to glimpse into the deepest corners of the non-soul of the so-called "Israelis"? He doesn't know Hebrew. On his trip to the West Bank, he skipped all of Israel except the airport. He didn't have a single encounter with an Israeli who wasn't on security detail. Yet he presumes to know what resides in Israel's "deepest corners."
More Likud propaganda from the NY Daily News
More Likud propaganda from the NY Daily News
'Obviously the tissue of lies ...'--Pseud in NC
More people who get their opinions from the teevee, so sad...
'Obviously the tissue of lies ...'--Pseud in NC
More people who get their opinions from the teevee, so sad...
upyernoz;
Are YOU and Trios having an affair? Is that why he gave you the keys to his blog? Inquiring minds and all that, you know?
upyernoz;
Are YOU and Trios having an affair? Is that why he gave you the keys to his blog? Inquiring minds and all that, you know?
'but there seems little question that if he were living in Israel he would vote for Likud rather than Labor, given his public stances.
Kee-rist what an ASSHOLE. The lawsuit is maybe not such a hot idea, but Cole is indisputably a bullshit artist of the worst kind.
The $60 million dollar figure obviously comes out of his ass.
The stuff about Likud is sloppy and borderline slanderous.
'but there seems little question that if he were living in Israel he would vote for Likud rather than Labor, given his public stances.
Kee-rist what an ASSHOLE. The lawsuit is maybe not such a hot idea, but Cole is indisputably a bullshit artist of the worst kind.
The $60 million dollar figure obviously comes out of his ass.
The stuff about Likud is sloppy and borderline slanderous.
Are YOU and Trios having an affair?
yes, that's it. i've been found out. what will i tell mrs. noz?
Are YOU and Trios having an affair?
yes, that's it. i've been found out. what will i tell mrs. noz?
Know what borderline slanderous means? Nothing.
Know what borderline slanderous means? Nothing.
so what music have you guys been listening to lately?
NOFX, Pailhead, VNV Nation, Imperative Reaction, Cesium137, Hocico, and a bunch of other electronic acts that I'm sure most ppl here may never have heard of.
so what music have you guys been listening to lately?
NOFX, Pailhead, VNV Nation, Imperative Reaction, Cesium137, Hocico, and a bunch of other electronic acts that I'm sure most ppl here may never have heard of.
Prof Cole's tried act is starting to wear thin. Perhaps he should champion a real peace and not champion bus bombers as over zelous young people.
Prof Cole's tried act is starting to wear thin. Perhaps he should champion a real peace and not champion bus bombers as over zelous young people.
MEMRI's effort to threaten Cole is both shameful and inane.
That said, Lisa, Dave, et al. are correct. If a mainstream US paper published anything as grotesquely hateful as what MEMRI shows the Arab media regurlary publishes, we'd be screaming bloody murder and rightly so. Coulter said something roughly equivalent and even National Review felt compelled to get rid of her.
To improve the world we have to understand it. Coulter's hateful views have traction in the US -- clearly -- and it won't do any good to pretend otherwise. Equivalent views, perhaps even more extreme ones, have greater traction in the Arab world. And again, it won't do any good to pretend otherwise.
So Cole's critique of MEMRI in this regard is off-point. I never imagined, looking at their web site, that "fair and balanced" was their mission, and I can't imagine anyone else thinking so either. In fact, I find it baffling that MEMRI would object to this aspect of Cole's characterization of their activities. Nor do I think it makes any difference to what level they are funded or whether they are funded by the Israeli government or not.
MEMRI's effort to threaten Cole is both shameful and inane.
That said, Lisa, Dave, et al. are correct. If a mainstream US paper published anything as grotesquely hateful as what MEMRI shows the Arab media regurlary publishes, we'd be screaming bloody murder and rightly so. Coulter said something roughly equivalent and even National Review felt compelled to get rid of her.
To improve the world we have to understand it. Coulter's hateful views have traction in the US -- clearly -- and it won't do any good to pretend otherwise. Equivalent views, perhaps even more extreme ones, have greater traction in the Arab world. And again, it won't do any good to pretend otherwise.
So Cole's critique of MEMRI in this regard is off-point. I never imagined, looking at their web site, that "fair and balanced" was their mission, and I can't imagine anyone else thinking so either. In fact, I find it baffling that MEMRI would object to this aspect of Cole's characterization of their activities. Nor do I think it makes any difference to what level they are funded or whether they are funded by the Israeli government or not.
'Know what borderline slanderous means? Nothing.'
ok, "slanderous" will do.
Lots of stuff here about the lawsuit ... not very much about cole making shit up.
'Know what borderline slanderous means? Nothing.'
ok, "slanderous" will do.
Lots of stuff here about the lawsuit ... not very much about cole making shit up.
So, why do you think they are pissed, Larry?
Oh, and considering MEMRI's legal status in this country, it IS illegal for them to be foreign funded.
.
So, why do you think they are pissed, Larry?
Oh, and considering MEMRI's legal status in this country, it IS illegal for them to be foreign funded.
.
"a real peace" = Sharon's Final Solution to the Palestinian Problem.
.
"a real peace" = Sharon's Final Solution to the Palestinian Problem.
.
'but there seems little question that if he were living in Israel he would vote for Likud rather than Labor, given his public stances.'
Is Cole so ignorant of Israeli politics that he thinks there exist only two parties? Shinui scored double digit returns in the last election (only 70k fewer votes than labor)
'but there seems little question that if he were living in Israel he would vote for Likud rather than Labor, given his public stances.'
Is Cole so ignorant of Israeli politics that he thinks there exist only two parties? Shinui scored double digit returns in the last election (only 70k fewer votes than labor)
"To improve the world we have to understand it."
That is precisely what MEMRI's mission is NOT.
The whole point about cherry-picking is that MEMRI provides the only gateway to the Arabic press that most western non-readers of Arabic will have, and uses that position to systematically depict the Arabic political discourse as almost uniformly extremist and racist.
Yes, yes, I know they've got the "reformist" section - and tell me, quick: when was the last time you saw a piece from THAT part of the MEMRI site get quoted?
Let's face it, MEMRI's function is to provide frequent reminders of the Arab world's hatefulness to readers who have nothing to check it against. The hatefulness DOES have a lot of traction in the Middle East, and it would be worse than foolish to pretend otherwise - but it is even worse to pretend that that's all there is.
"To improve the world we have to understand it."
That is precisely what MEMRI's mission is NOT.
The whole point about cherry-picking is that MEMRI provides the only gateway to the Arabic press that most western non-readers of Arabic will have, and uses that position to systematically depict the Arabic political discourse as almost uniformly extremist and racist.
Yes, yes, I know they've got the "reformist" section - and tell me, quick: when was the last time you saw a piece from THAT part of the MEMRI site get quoted?
Let's face it, MEMRI's function is to provide frequent reminders of the Arab world's hatefulness to readers who have nothing to check it against. The hatefulness DOES have a lot of traction in the Middle East, and it would be worse than foolish to pretend otherwise - but it is even worse to pretend that that's all there is.
' it IS illegal for them to be foreign funded. ' [sic]
are they 'foreign funded'? I thought it was established that Cole was full of shit on that score. His 60 million fig is obviously made up.
' it IS illegal for them to be foreign funded. ' [sic]
are they 'foreign funded'? I thought it was established that Cole was full of shit on that score. His 60 million fig is obviously made up.
'The whole point about cherry-picking is that MEMRI provides the only gateway to the Arabic press that most western non-readers of Arabic will have'
bullshit, they can read al jaz or al ahram or arab news or any number of other english language newspapers just as easily (and find shit nearly as nasty!)
'The whole point about cherry-picking is that MEMRI provides the only gateway to the Arabic press that most western non-readers of Arabic will have'
bullshit, they can read al jaz or al ahram or arab news or any number of other english language newspapers just as easily (and find shit nearly as nasty!)
I would like to add Anonymous voice to this discussion. Imperial Hubris - Great Book -
...Why are we letting a country of 3 million, that recieves 3 billion in aid, direct the foriegn policy of a country of 270 million?
I would like to add Anonymous voice to this discussion. Imperial Hubris - Great Book -
...Why are we letting a country of 3 million, that recieves 3 billion in aid, direct the foriegn policy of a country of 270 million?
' It is true that in modern standard Arabic, wilayah means "state" or "province" and that al-Wilayaat al-Muttahaddah is the phrase used to translate "United States."';
It isn't obvious to me that MEMRI got the OBL translation wrong. Cole's piece is unconvincing.
' It is true that in modern standard Arabic, wilayah means "state" or "province" and that al-Wilayaat al-Muttahaddah is the phrase used to translate "United States."';
It isn't obvious to me that MEMRI got the OBL translation wrong. Cole's piece is unconvincing.
'
...Why are we letting a country of 3 million, that recieves 3 billion in aid, direct the foriegn policy of a country of 270 million?'
fucking jews pulling strings in washington.
A good question. Why are we also giving north of 3 bn in annual aid to Jordan and Egypt, when their subjects obviously hate our guts?
'
...Why are we letting a country of 3 million, that recieves 3 billion in aid, direct the foriegn policy of a country of 270 million?'
fucking jews pulling strings in washington.
A good question. Why are we also giving north of 3 bn in annual aid to Jordan and Egypt, when their subjects obviously hate our guts?
Wonder if they are suing these folks, too:
The organisation that makes these translations and sends them out is the Middle East Media Research Institute (Memri), based in Washington but with recently-opened offices in London, Berlin and Jerusalem.
Its work is subsidised by US taxpayers because as an "independent, non-partisan, non-profit" organisation, it has tax-deductible status under American law.
Memri's purpose, according to its website, is to bridge the language gap between the west - where few speak Arabic - and the Middle East, by "providing timely translations of Arabic, Farsi, and Hebrew media".
Despite these high-minded statements, several things make me uneasy whenever I'm asked to look at a story circulated by Memri. First of all, it's a rather mysterious organisation. Its website does not give the names of any people to contact, not even an office address.
The reason for this secrecy, according to a former employee, is that "they don't want suicide bombers walking through the door on Monday morning" (Washington Times, June 20).
This strikes me as a somewhat over-the-top precaution for an institute that simply wants to break down east-west language barriers.
The second thing that makes me uneasy is that the stories selected by Memri for translation follow a familiar pattern: either they reflect badly on the character of Arabs or they in some way further the political agenda of Israel. I am not alone in this unease.
Ibrahim Hooper of the Council on American-Islamic Relations told the Washington Times: "Memri's intent is to find the worst possible quotes from the Muslim world and disseminate them as widely as possible."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewh...73258%
2C00.html
Wonder if they are suing these folks, too:
The organisation that makes these translations and sends them out is the Middle East Media Research Institute (Memri), based in Washington but with recently-opened offices in London, Berlin and Jerusalem.
Its work is subsidised by US taxpayers because as an "independent, non-partisan, non-profit" organisation, it has tax-deductible status under American law.
Memri's purpose, according to its website, is to bridge the language gap between the west - where few speak Arabic - and the Middle East, by "providing timely translations of Arabic, Farsi, and Hebrew media".
Despite these high-minded statements, several things make me uneasy whenever I'm asked to look at a story circulated by Memri. First of all, it's a rather mysterious organisation. Its website does not give the names of any people to contact, not even an office address.
The reason for this secrecy, according to a former employee, is that "they don't want suicide bombers walking through the door on Monday morning" (Washington Times, June 20).
This strikes me as a somewhat over-the-top precaution for an institute that simply wants to break down east-west language barriers.
The second thing that makes me uneasy is that the stories selected by Memri for translation follow a familiar pattern: either they reflect badly on the character of Arabs or they in some way further the political agenda of Israel. I am not alone in this unease.
Ibrahim Hooper of the Council on American-Islamic Relations told the Washington Times: "Memri's intent is to find the worst possible quotes from the Muslim world and disseminate them as widely as possible."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewh...73258%
2C00.html
'Nor is MEMRI a media powerhouse fueled by AIPAC-level bucks. A 501(c)(3) non-profit that raised less than a million dollars in its first three years of operation (2000 records were not available), the organization cites mostly small-time expenses in its tax filings - $54,000 in compensation to Meyrav Wurmser, one of the organization's three officers, $13,000 in 'apartment expenses,' and so on. Its work is paid for mostly by relatively small donations, the largest being an undated gift of $150,000 - chump change in the shadow world of well-heeled interest groups and free-spending millionaire cranks where non-profit policy centers dwell. A $48,000 line-item for salaries and wages, at an office with half a dozen people, hints at the sort of slavery Washington interns are routinely subjected to; but MEMRI's finances, at least in its US office, appear to be on the up-and-up.'
'Nor is MEMRI a media powerhouse fueled by AIPAC-level bucks. A 501(c)(3) non-profit that raised less than a million dollars in its first three years of operation (2000 records were not available), the organization cites mostly small-time expenses in its tax filings - $54,000 in compensation to Meyrav Wurmser, one of the organization's three officers, $13,000 in 'apartment expenses,' and so on. Its work is paid for mostly by relatively small donations, the largest being an undated gift of $150,000 - chump change in the shadow world of well-heeled interest groups and free-spending millionaire cranks where non-profit policy centers dwell. A $48,000 line-item for salaries and wages, at an office with half a dozen people, hints at the sort of slavery Washington interns are routinely subjected to; but MEMRI's finances, at least in its US office, appear to be on the up-and-up.'
"Why are we also giving north of 3 bn in annual aid to Jordan and Egypt, when their subjects obviously hate our guts?"
We give it because they DO hate our guts, and we don't want them to take power. The more important question is why they hate us. Imperial Hubris - Great Book.
"Why are we also giving north of 3 bn in annual aid to Jordan and Egypt, when their subjects obviously hate our guts?"
We give it because they DO hate our guts, and we don't want them to take power. The more important question is why they hate us. Imperial Hubris - Great Book.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/
israel...,778373,00.html
MEMRIS response to whitaker's piece here.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/
israel...,778373,00.html
MEMRIS response to whitaker's piece here.
' it IS illegal for them to be foreign funded. ' [sic]
not true.
http://www.irs.gov/charities/
cha...d=96099,00.html
' it IS illegal for them to be foreign funded. ' [sic]
not true.
http://www.irs.gov/charities/
cha...d=96099,00.html
Jordan and Egypt do not appear to direct the foriegn policy of 270 million.
They are nothing more than heads (DONs) of there respective States (Mafia Organizations) taking the payoff for keeping the peace (non democratic institutions).
Jordan and Egypt do not appear to direct the foriegn policy of 270 million.
They are nothing more than heads (DONs) of there respective States (Mafia Organizations) taking the payoff for keeping the peace (non democratic institutions).
jillian:
Ibrahim Hooper on his 20 yrs of visitng mosques: "“I’ve never heard violence preached; I’ve never heard anti-Semitism or anti-Americanism preached.”"
'Jordan and Egypt do not appear to direct the foriegn policy of 270 million. '
go back to stormfront, jew-baiter.
jillian:
Ibrahim Hooper on his 20 yrs of visitng mosques: "“I’ve never heard violence preached; I’ve never heard anti-Semitism or anti-Americanism preached.”"
'Jordan and Egypt do not appear to direct the foriegn policy of 270 million. '
go back to stormfront, jew-baiter.
http://www.memri.org/video/
I challenge any of you to provide a single example of American or Israeli television footage approximating this level of disgusting bigotry.
http://www.memri.org/video/
I challenge any of you to provide a single example of American or Israeli television footage approximating this level of disgusting bigotry.
I challenge any of you to provide a single example of American or Israeli television footage approximating this level of disgusting bigotry.
Jerry Falwell. Pat "Blood Diamond" Robertson. Radical Cleric James Dobson.
Equally disgusting and hateful in their own special ways.
I challenge any of you to provide a single example of American or Israeli television footage approximating this level of disgusting bigotry.
Jerry Falwell. Pat "Blood Diamond" Robertson. Radical Cleric James Dobson.
Equally disgusting and hateful in their own special ways.
"I challenge any of you to provide a single example of American or Israeli television footage approximating this level of disgusting bigotry."
Um, how about these: http://www.einswine.com/atrocities/iraq/
Worse than bigotry, wouldn't you say? Think this could happen if we weren't bigoted against Arabs?
"I challenge any of you to provide a single example of American or Israeli television footage approximating this level of disgusting bigotry."
Um, how about these: http://www.einswine.com/atrocities/iraq/
Worse than bigotry, wouldn't you say? Think this could happen if we weren't bigoted against Arabs?
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opini...20Al-
Faisal.htm
Here's a choice piece of America hatred from al jazeera that could almost have been written by any of you.
Fact is, it was written by a member of the Saudi royal family! How do you like them apples!!??
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opini...20Al-
Faisal.htm
Here's a choice piece of America hatred from al jazeera that could almost have been written by any of you.
Fact is, it was written by a member of the Saudi royal family! How do you like them apples!!??
'Jerry Falwell. Pat "Blood Diamond" Robertson. Radical Cleric James Dobson.'
BULLSHIT. Falwell and Robertson I find disgusting, no doubt, but did you watch any of those MEMRI vids? Falwell doesn't compare, not by a country mile. And these videos are on state run television. And here you have juan cole nitpicking over whether wilayah means state.
'Jerry Falwell. Pat "Blood Diamond" Robertson. Radical Cleric James Dobson.'
BULLSHIT. Falwell and Robertson I find disgusting, no doubt, but did you watch any of those MEMRI vids? Falwell doesn't compare, not by a country mile. And these videos are on state run television. And here you have juan cole nitpicking over whether wilayah means state.
rob, it was our trade with hussein, then our embargo that served as evidence of our arab hatred before the iraq war. And our (belated) support of timorese independence. And perversely, attempting to feed starving somalis.
rob, it was our trade with hussein, then our embargo that served as evidence of our arab hatred before the iraq war. And our (belated) support of timorese independence. And perversely, attempting to feed starving somalis.
Here's a choice piece of America hatred from al jazeera that could almost have been written by any of you.
Ah, the classic "you hate America!" response.
If you want to be taken seriously as a troll, you're going to have to come up with something a little more original.
Here's a choice piece of America hatred from al jazeera that could almost have been written by any of you.
Ah, the classic "you hate America!" response.
If you want to be taken seriously as a troll, you're going to have to come up with something a little more original.
'If you want to be taken seriously as a troll'
Fuck you right back. If you want to be taken seriously as a knee-jerk loser who whitewashes arab bigotry and loses elections, keep on keeping on!
'If you want to be taken seriously as a troll'
Fuck you right back. If you want to be taken seriously as a knee-jerk loser who whitewashes arab bigotry and loses elections, keep on keeping on!
Osamabinlazy, is that you? Do ya like "old school" Democrats like George Wallace, Ross Barnett and Lester Maddox, too?
Backslider | Email | Homepage | 11.24.04 - 12:59 am | #
Why yes, yes it is--glad you mentioned it. Kevin, how's the ex-wife?
/waits for troll to shut up
Osamabinlazy, is that you? Do ya like "old school" Democrats like George Wallace, Ross Barnett and Lester Maddox, too?
Backslider | Email | Homepage | 11.24.04 - 12:59 am | #
Why yes, yes it is--glad you mentioned it. Kevin, how's the ex-wife?
/waits for troll to shut up
Wow, whitewashing arab bigotry and losing elections, now that's multitasking!
Jamshid, if you think American media isn't capable of bigotry, read some history. We use it when we need it. If you want some examples outside of news sources, how about any Hollywood depiction of Arabs? Or is that too subtle for you to recognize?
Wow, whitewashing arab bigotry and losing elections, now that's multitasking!
Jamshid, if you think American media isn't capable of bigotry, read some history. We use it when we need it. If you want some examples outside of news sources, how about any Hollywood depiction of Arabs? Or is that too subtle for you to recognize?
Looks like there's a full court press on to discredit Juan Cole. This would be absurd if it weren't so troubling, as anyone who has read his blog or seen his appearances on The NewsHour can attest that Cole offers uniquely well-informed perspective on events in the Middle East.
I'll be curious to see whether or not Cole appears again anytime soon on The Newshour. You can bet the same people behind the SLAPP letter are lobbying the editors at PBS to keep Cole off that show.
Pathetic. Disgusting. Fascistic.
I recommend that everyone who believes in restoring an honest and balanced public discourse write to The Newshour to express support for Prof. Cole.
Looks like there's a full court press on to discredit Juan Cole. This would be absurd if it weren't so troubling, as anyone who has read his blog or seen his appearances on The NewsHour can attest that Cole offers uniquely well-informed perspective on events in the Middle East.
I'll be curious to see whether or not Cole appears again anytime soon on The Newshour. You can bet the same people behind the SLAPP letter are lobbying the editors at PBS to keep Cole off that show.
Pathetic. Disgusting. Fascistic.
I recommend that everyone who believes in restoring an honest and balanced public discourse write to The Newshour to express support for Prof. Cole.
'how about any Hollywood depiction of Arabs'
boo hoo I'm sure it made for interesting reading in your thesis (lol)
Strange. I'm half Arab (lebanese) and Ive never felt compelled to blow myself up or hijack an airliner (or write a dumb editorial like that one.)
'how about any Hollywood depiction of Arabs'
boo hoo I'm sure it made for interesting reading in your thesis (lol)
Strange. I'm half Arab (lebanese) and Ive never felt compelled to blow myself up or hijack an airliner (or write a dumb editorial like that one.)
', as anyone who has read his blog or seen his appearances on The NewsHour can attest that Cole offers uniquely well-informed perspective on events in the Middle East.'
also known as the fallacy of circular reasoning. get outside of cole's orbit -- he doesnt seem so informed.
', as anyone who has read his blog or seen his appearances on The NewsHour can attest that Cole offers uniquely well-informed perspective on events in the Middle East.'
also known as the fallacy of circular reasoning. get outside of cole's orbit -- he doesnt seem so informed.
"Strange. I'm half Arab (lebanese)"
So what does that make you, half lebanese and half ass?
"Strange. I'm half Arab (lebanese)"
So what does that make you, half lebanese and half ass?
I think that there are some fact that are not in dispute.
* MEMRI was stupid threatening a law suit. They should have simply sent a notification that this was inaccurate, and pointing him toward their 501(c)3 data.
* MEMRI's translations are accurate, but some people claim that what they choose to translate shows a bias.
* Dr. Cole implied that MEMRI was an arm of the Likud, illegal under section 501(c)3, as opposed to a pro-Israel and pro-Zionist organization, which is legal under that section.
As MEMRI's mission is to translate the dialog among Arabs, as opposed to that presented for external consumption, and I see a fair amount (albeit on page B-12) regarding calls for democratization, etc. in the normal press, it's natural that they would cover the rather more extreme communications.
Bottom line is, no one, including Dr. Cole, has challenged the accuracy of their translations.
So, for the purpose of finding a quote from an Arab public figure, they are still a good source if the quote is there, though the absence of a translation does not mean an absence of a statement.
As to Dr. Cole, I'm of the mind that like many non Arab Arabists (and for that matter T.E. Lawrence), he all too frequently has the "Pet Arab" mind-set that Dr. Said described in "Orientalism".
BTW, I'm completely flabbergasted that I'm citing Said.
I think that there are some fact that are not in dispute.
* MEMRI was stupid threatening a law suit. They should have simply sent a notification that this was inaccurate, and pointing him toward their 501(c)3 data.
* MEMRI's translations are accurate, but some people claim that what they choose to translate shows a bias.
* Dr. Cole implied that MEMRI was an arm of the Likud, illegal under section 501(c)3, as opposed to a pro-Israel and pro-Zionist organization, which is legal under that section.
As MEMRI's mission is to translate the dialog among Arabs, as opposed to that presented for external consumption, and I see a fair amount (albeit on page B-12) regarding calls for democratization, etc. in the normal press, it's natural that they would cover the rather more extreme communications.
Bottom line is, no one, including Dr. Cole, has challenged the accuracy of their translations.
So, for the purpose of finding a quote from an Arab public figure, they are still a good source if the quote is there, though the absence of a translation does not mean an absence of a statement.
As to Dr. Cole, I'm of the mind that like many non Arab Arabists (and for that matter T.E. Lawrence), he all too frequently has the "Pet Arab" mind-set that Dr. Said described in "Orientalism".
BTW, I'm completely flabbergasted that I'm citing Said.
Speaking of inaccurate translations, I've been wondering if there is any dispute at all regarding what OBL supposedly said on that video?
I've always had the suspicion that the goat remarks could've been manufactured to connect him & Michael Moore in not-too-bright peoples' heads.
Speaking of inaccurate translations, I've been wondering if there is any dispute at all regarding what OBL supposedly said on that video?
I've always had the suspicion that the goat remarks could've been manufactured to connect him & Michael Moore in not-too-bright peoples' heads.
Matthew reintroduces an important point. Cole was erroneously claiming that as an arm of a political party, MEMRI was acting illegally. It is therefore HIS article that was the effort at censorship, and on completely fraudulent grounds. HIs ineffectual counterresponse to MEMRI says it all: "well, this is how they WOULD have voted" says Cole the all-knowing, inching slowly away from the incendiary 'likudnik' charge he uses so freely. And his 60 million figure comes out of thin air and is refutable easily with documents in the public domain. So this post is basically defending the right of mr. well-informed to charge someone falsely with a crime (tax evasion and fraud) based on complete lies.
Matthew reintroduces an important point. Cole was erroneously claiming that as an arm of a political party, MEMRI was acting illegally. It is therefore HIS article that was the effort at censorship, and on completely fraudulent grounds. HIs ineffectual counterresponse to MEMRI says it all: "well, this is how they WOULD have voted" says Cole the all-knowing, inching slowly away from the incendiary 'likudnik' charge he uses so freely. And his 60 million figure comes out of thin air and is refutable easily with documents in the public domain. So this post is basically defending the right of mr. well-informed to charge someone falsely with a crime (tax evasion and fraud) based on complete lies.
'"Pet Arab" mind-set'
It's caled nostalgie de la boue, and he has it in spades. So does fellow ultra leftist jihadi whitewasher Helena Cobban.
I don't agree with MEMRI's lawsuit, or "SLAPP" lawsuits in general, but I think accusing MEMRI of cherry-picking is stupid. The point isn't to translate EVERY thing written in the Arabic-language media, it's to translate noteworthy, out of the ordinary things, especially those we find disturbing.
You may say that "the point" is to translate "out of the ordinary things, especially those we find disturbing", but that's not what MEMRI itself claims is its purpose; it claims that its purpose is to bridge "the language gap which exists between the West and the Middle East, providing timely translations of Arabic, Farsi, and Hebrew media" and to report on "political, ideological, intellectual, social, cultural, and religious trends in the Middle East".
If they selectively pick "out of the ordinary" and "disturbing" Arabic (and/or Farsi, for that matter) articles to translate, particularly when they do not select Hebrew articles on that basis, then they are clearly not at all doing what they claim they are doing.
'"Pet Arab" mind-set'
It's caled nostalgie de la boue, and he has it in spades. So does fellow ultra leftist jihadi whitewasher Helena Cobban.
I don't agree with MEMRI's lawsuit, or "SLAPP" lawsuits in general, but I think accusing MEMRI of cherry-picking is stupid. The point isn't to translate EVERY thing written in the Arabic-language media, it's to translate noteworthy, out of the ordinary things, especially those we find disturbing.
You may say that "the point" is to translate "out of the ordinary things, especially those we find disturbing", but that's not what MEMRI itself claims is its purpose; it claims that its purpose is to bridge "the language gap which exists between the West and the Middle East, providing timely translations of Arabic, Farsi, and Hebrew media" and to report on "political, ideological, intellectual, social, cultural, and religious trends in the Middle East".
If they selectively pick "out of the ordinary" and "disturbing" Arabic (and/or Farsi, for that matter) articles to translate, particularly when they do not select Hebrew articles on that basis, then they are clearly not at all doing what they claim they are doing.
Bottom line is, no one, including Dr. Cole, has challenged the accuracy of their translations.
This is not true. While they are usually challenged more for the spin they apply by their selection of what to translate in order to fit their preferred narrative, and they are usually widely respected for the general accuracy of their translations, particular of their translations -- the bin Laden tape, for instance, and the suggestion that it referred to "US states" -- have been challenged, including, and in fact particularly, by Dr. Cole.
Bottom line is, no one, including Dr. Cole, has challenged the accuracy of their translations.
This is not true. While they are usually challenged more for the spin they apply by their selection of what to translate in order to fit their preferred narrative, and they are usually widely respected for the general accuracy of their translations, particular of their translations -- the bin Laden tape, for instance, and the suggestion that it referred to "US states" -- have been challenged, including, and in fact particularly, by Dr. Cole.
Jamshid, be calm. For the most part we're among friends here.
Dave L, you're right, it's dangerous to ignore the voices for progress in the Arab world. But I'm not surprised that such voices exist, indeed I often read about them or pieces by them in the Western press. I am surprised by what I read at MEMRI.
Also Rob, I didn't look at the site you point to but on the other hand we've committed many atrocities against many peoples over the history of this nation. I don't know that the deaths of civilians in Iraq or what happened at Abu Ghraib point to any special contempt for Arabs. This is a weak defense to be sure ("we don't revile them any more than we do anyone else who isn't like us").
Jamshid, be calm. For the most part we're among friends here.
Dave L, you're right, it's dangerous to ignore the voices for progress in the Arab world. But I'm not surprised that such voices exist, indeed I often read about them or pieces by them in the Western press. I am surprised by what I read at MEMRI.
Also Rob, I didn't look at the site you point to but on the other hand we've committed many atrocities against many peoples over the history of this nation. I don't know that the deaths of civilians in Iraq or what happened at Abu Ghraib point to any special contempt for Arabs. This is a weak defense to be sure ("we don't revile them any more than we do anyone else who isn't like us").
Starting late here...didn't wanna go thru every post to see if this point has already been made...
...but that post by Lisa using the NYTimes/David Duke analogy is so off. The correct analogy would be: if the NYTimes did give Duke a regular column, and then I came out with what purportedly was a 'digest' of the NYTimes editorial view...then I selected all their Duke columns and none of Krugman's or anyone on the left. THAT is the correct analogy to what Prof. Cole claims MEMRI does.
Starting late here...didn't wanna go thru every post to see if this point has already been made...
...but that post by Lisa using the NYTimes/David Duke analogy is so off. The correct analogy would be: if the NYTimes did give Duke a regular column, and then I came out with what purportedly was a 'digest' of the NYTimes editorial view...then I selected all their Duke columns and none of Krugman's or anyone on the left. THAT is the correct analogy to what Prof. Cole claims MEMRI does.
cmdicely, note that the Cole challenge to the accuracy of the OBL statement rests on some pretty tenuous reasoning.
cole:
" It is true that in modern standard Arabic, wilayah means "state" or "province" and that al-Wilayaat al-Muttahaddah is the phrase used to translate "United States." A state in the sense of government or international Power would more likely nowadays be "dawlah" or "hukumah.""
cmdicely, note that the Cole challenge to the accuracy of the OBL statement rests on some pretty tenuous reasoning.
cole:
" It is true that in modern standard Arabic, wilayah means "state" or "province" and that al-Wilayaat al-Muttahaddah is the phrase used to translate "United States." A state in the sense of government or international Power would more likely nowadays be "dawlah" or "hukumah.""
Looks like there's a full court press on to discredit Juan Cole.
There has been a full-court press to silence any voice that doesn't adhere to the dominionist/neoconservative/Likudnik (three distinct, though sometimes overlapping, groups with current shared policy preference in parts of the Middle East -- I'm not equating the three) line on Iraq and the US War on Terror for some time.
Looks like there's a full court press on to discredit Juan Cole.
There has been a full-court press to silence any voice that doesn't adhere to the dominionist/neoconservative/Likudnik (three distinct, though sometimes overlapping, groups with current shared policy preference in parts of the Middle East -- I'm not equating the three) line on Iraq and the US War on Terror for some time.
cmdicely, note that the Cole challenge to the accuracy of the OBL statement rests on some pretty tenuous reasoning.
I don't think it does, and your excerpt doesn't even include any of his reasoning at all, but merely the one part where he acknowledges the basis, tenuous though it is, of MEMRI's translation.
You obviously are having serious reading comprehension problems if you think that is any part of the base on which his rejection of their translation rests.
For those interested in the whole argument, read the original post.
cmdicely, note that the Cole challenge to the accuracy of the OBL statement rests on some pretty tenuous reasoning.
I don't think it does, and your excerpt doesn't even include any of his reasoning at all, but merely the one part where he acknowledges the basis, tenuous though it is, of MEMRI's translation.
You obviously are having serious reading comprehension problems if you think that is any part of the base on which his rejection of their translation rests.
For those interested in the whole argument, read the original post.
'There has been a full-court press to silence any voice that doesn't adhere to the dominionist/neoconservative/Likudnik '
completely 180 degrees wrong, ham fisted tone deaf sloganeering and all. COLE is the one attempting censorship in the first place, shooting the charge of 'illegally funded tax exempt group' across the bow. This charge is explicitly false. Instead of retracting his slander like an honest human being, Cole hardens his stance and holds the threat itself up for ridicule.
'There has been a full-court press to silence any voice that doesn't adhere to the dominionist/neoconservative/Likudnik '
completely 180 degrees wrong, ham fisted tone deaf sloganeering and all. COLE is the one attempting censorship in the first place, shooting the charge of 'illegally funded tax exempt group' across the bow. This charge is explicitly false. Instead of retracting his slander like an honest human being, Cole hardens his stance and holds the threat itself up for ridicule.
"Cole was erroneously claiming that as an arm of a political party, MEMRI was acting illegally."
Cole made no such claim. What he wrote was:
"MEMRI is one of a number of public relations campaigns essentially on behalf of the far right-wing Likud Party in Israel that tries to shape American perceptions of Muslims and the Middle East in a negative direction."
"It is therefore HIS article that was the effort at censorship, and on completely fraudulent grounds."
Prof. Cole did not threaten to sue anyone, nor did he even claim that MEMRI did not have the right to disseminate their translation. He points out that there is a motive behind MEMRI's operations: to make Arabs look bad to non-Arabic speaking peoples.
I'm at a loss as to how one can accuse a writer being sued for what he wrote as being the actual purveyor of censorship. Logical leaps like that can not be measured in miles.
"So this post is basically defending the right of mr. well-informed to charge someone falsely with a crime (tax evasion and fraud) based on complete lies."
This post was about MEMRI trying to silence a critic with unmerited charges of libel: MEMRI knows it has no actual case, but it had hoped the threat of a lawsuit might silence Prof. Cole. That is thuggery at best.
Jamshid, please retreat back to LGF or Freeper. You'll hear this often tommorrow, so get used to it:
"You have to sit at the children's table, adults are talking here."
"Cole was erroneously claiming that as an arm of a political party, MEMRI was acting illegally."
Cole made no such claim. What he wrote was:
"MEMRI is one of a number of public relations campaigns essentially on behalf of the far right-wing Likud Party in Israel that tries to shape American perceptions of Muslims and the Middle East in a negative direction."
"It is therefore HIS article that was the effort at censorship, and on completely fraudulent grounds."
Prof. Cole did not threaten to sue anyone, nor did he even claim that MEMRI did not have the right to disseminate their translation. He points out that there is a motive behind MEMRI's operations: to make Arabs look bad to non-Arabic speaking peoples.
I'm at a loss as to how one can accuse a writer being sued for what he wrote as being the actual purveyor of censorship. Logical leaps like that can not be measured in miles.
"So this post is basically defending the right of mr. well-informed to charge someone falsely with a crime (tax evasion and fraud) based on complete lies."
This post was about MEMRI trying to silence a critic with unmerited charges of libel: MEMRI knows it has no actual case, but it had hoped the threat of a lawsuit might silence Prof. Cole. That is thuggery at best.
Jamshid, please retreat back to LGF or Freeper. You'll hear this often tommorrow, so get used to it:
"You have to sit at the children's table, adults are talking here."
Gee, the_truth, I guess you're speaking the truth cause that's your name and all (rolling eyes)
false alternatives: Freepers and G-d invoking LGF/ or 'enlightened' Arabophiles like Cole (who is really a condescending racist in my opinion.)
That 'essentially on behalf of Likud' bullshit is right up there with "objectively pro-saddam" in self-serving DISHONEST infantile debate-stifling rhetorical ploys. The term 'Likudnik' seems only to be used by people generally ignorant of Israeli politics.
Gee, the_truth, I guess you're speaking the truth cause that's your name and all (rolling eyes)
false alternatives: Freepers and G-d invoking LGF/ or 'enlightened' Arabophiles like Cole (who is really a condescending racist in my opinion.)
That 'essentially on behalf of Likud' bullshit is right up there with "objectively pro-saddam" in self-serving DISHONEST infantile debate-stifling rhetorical ploys. The term 'Likudnik' seems only to be used by people generally ignorant of Israeli politics.
'MEMRI is funded to the tune of $60 million a year by someone'
-Juan Cole
Is it?
Any evidence of this?
That's not what it says in any of their public filings!
I won't hold my breath waiting for that retraction.
'MEMRI is funded to the tune of $60 million a year by someone'
-Juan Cole
Is it?
Any evidence of this?
That's not what it says in any of their public filings!
I won't hold my breath waiting for that retraction.
www.memri.org/reform.html
What the hell is this ?? I count nearly 100 translated articles by Arab moderates!! Titles like:
Special Dispatch Series - No. 787 - Reform in the Arab and Muslim World, September 22, 2004
Syrian Professor: 'We Need People Who are Capable of Fearlessly Acknowledging that Terrorism Nests within Us as Muslims and that We Must Exorcise It'
www.memri.org/reform.html
What the hell is this ?? I count nearly 100 translated articles by Arab moderates!! Titles like:
Special Dispatch Series - No. 787 - Reform in the Arab and Muslim World, September 22, 2004
Syrian Professor: 'We Need People Who are Capable of Fearlessly Acknowledging that Terrorism Nests within Us as Muslims and that We Must Exorcise It'
Iranian Youth Organization to Supreme Leader Khamenei: 'What A Huge Lie You Are Telling!'
Iranian Youth Organization to Supreme Leader Khamenei: 'What A Huge Lie You Are Telling!'
completely 180 degrees wrong, ham fisted tone deaf sloganeering and all. COLE is the one attempting censorship in the first place, shooting the charge of 'illegally funded tax exempt group' across the bow.
No, he's not, and you are lying in saying that he made the charge that MEMRI was illegally funded.
This charge is explicitly false.
This is true, at least, if by "this charge" you are referring to your explicitly false charge against Dr. Cole.
completely 180 degrees wrong, ham fisted tone deaf sloganeering and all. COLE is the one attempting censorship in the first place, shooting the charge of 'illegally funded tax exempt group' across the bow.
No, he's not, and you are lying in saying that he made the charge that MEMRI was illegally funded.
This charge is explicitly false.
This is true, at least, if by "this charge" you are referring to your explicitly false charge against Dr. Cole.
What the hell is this ?? I count nearly 100 translated articles by Arab moderates!! Titles like: [...] 'We Need People Who are Capable of Fearlessly Acknowledging that Terrorism Nests within Us as Muslims and that We Must Exorcise It'
Yes, MEMRI is as eager to translate Arabs saying Arabs and Muslims are the source of problems as they are to publish Arabs saying things that make Arabs and Muslims look to the West like a problem directly.
I'm trying to see how that observation does anything to undercut the idea that MEMRI cherry picks articles to make Arabs and Muslims look like the source of the problems in the Middle East.
What the hell is this ?? I count nearly 100 translated articles by Arab moderates!! Titles like: [...] 'We Need People Who are Capable of Fearlessly Acknowledging that Terrorism Nests within Us as Muslims and that We Must Exorcise It'
Yes, MEMRI is as eager to translate Arabs saying Arabs and Muslims are the source of problems as they are to publish Arabs saying things that make Arabs and Muslims look to the West like a problem directly.
I'm trying to see how that observation does anything to undercut the idea that MEMRI cherry picks articles to make Arabs and Muslims look like the source of the problems in the Middle East.
Well at least cmdicely is reality based enough to know not to contest the charge that Cole has presented a falsehood. There's hope yet.
And yes, cmdicely, were it true that MEMRI was Likud-affiliated or received 8-figure funding from any source, they would indeed be breaking the law. I don't expect you to accept this dirt simple line of reasoning, as I realize it's beneath you.
'Arabs and Muslims are the source of problems '
Hmm, this is what I get referencing a piece on Iran (by Iranians, directed at Iranians?) And a piece by a moderate Syrian cleric acknowledging the incontrovertible fact that terrorism is a destructive influence on arab society? Some fucking ass-backwards [and factually inaccurate] blame-mongering?
If you want to read only what you want to read, I recommend the Guardian.
Well at least cmdicely is reality based enough to know not to contest the charge that Cole has presented a falsehood. There's hope yet.
And yes, cmdicely, were it true that MEMRI was Likud-affiliated or received 8-figure funding from any source, they would indeed be breaking the law. I don't expect you to accept this dirt simple line of reasoning, as I realize it's beneath you.
'Arabs and Muslims are the source of problems '
Hmm, this is what I get referencing a piece on Iran (by Iranians, directed at Iranians?) And a piece by a moderate Syrian cleric acknowledging the incontrovertible fact that terrorism is a destructive influence on arab society? Some fucking ass-backwards [and factually inaccurate] blame-mongering?
If you want to read only what you want to read, I recommend the Guardian.
Well at least cmdicely is reality based enough to know not to contest the charge that Cole has presented a falsehood.
You need either:
a) To learn to read,
b) To stop lying constantly, or
c) To find someplace else to troll.
Well at least cmdicely is reality based enough to know not to contest the charge that Cole has presented a falsehood.
You need either:
a) To learn to read,
b) To stop lying constantly, or
c) To find someplace else to troll.
'Arabs and Muslims are the source of problems '
DO you honestly believe that most or even much criticism of radical Islamic militancy reduces to this clumsy paraphrase? The world is bigger than Little Green Footballs and free republic for petes sake!!!
'Arabs and Muslims are the source of problems '
DO you honestly believe that most or even much criticism of radical Islamic militancy reduces to this clumsy paraphrase? The world is bigger than Little Green Footballs and free republic for petes sake!!!
'MEMRI is funded to the tune of $60 million a year by someone'
-Juan Cole
true or false?
'MEMRI is funded to the tune of $60 million a year by someone'
-Juan Cole
true or false?
Director-General of Al-Arabiya TV Channel: 'There is No Difference Between the Suicide Attacks in Kabul, Al-Anbar, Islamabad, Riyadh, Algiers, Paris, Damascus, or Taba'
likudnik propaganda! don't believe a word!
Director-General of Al-Arabiya TV Channel: 'There is No Difference Between the Suicide Attacks in Kabul, Al-Anbar, Islamabad, Riyadh, Algiers, Paris, Damascus, or Taba'
likudnik propaganda! don't believe a word!
Now for something completely different:
It is surreal that Cole appears to be suggesting that it is acceptable to flatten a city of 300,000 people and kill probably thousands of civilians - we'll never know how many as the Americans have effectively hidden that information - in order to achieve the possible end of removing a few easily replaceable car bombers. What end could possibly justify that means? Any sanction of the United Nations is completely irrelevant, as the United Nations didn't sanction the Americans to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity. You can see the horrible effects of the building of empire when it becomes impossible to distinguish the writing of someone like Cole from the writings of someone like Michael Ledeen or Richard Perle. Have Americans all gone insane? -xymphora
Now for something completely different:
It is surreal that Cole appears to be suggesting that it is acceptable to flatten a city of 300,000 people and kill probably thousands of civilians - we'll never know how many as the Americans have effectively hidden that information - in order to achieve the possible end of removing a few easily replaceable car bombers. What end could possibly justify that means? Any sanction of the United Nations is completely irrelevant, as the United Nations didn't sanction the Americans to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity. You can see the horrible effects of the building of empire when it becomes impossible to distinguish the writing of someone like Cole from the writings of someone like Michael Ledeen or Richard Perle. Have Americans all gone insane? -xymphora
"completely 180 degrees wrong, ham fisted tone deaf sloganeering and all."
"fellow ultra leftist jihadi whitewasher"
"DISHONEST infantile debate-stifling rhetorical ploys."
Is it just me, or does the Jamshid troll sound eerily like the Autorantic Virtual Moonbat (created to make fun of lefties, but the point remains).
http://blog.gleeson.us/sean/2004...4/11/21/
avm_0_2
"completely 180 degrees wrong, ham fisted tone deaf sloganeering and all."
"fellow ultra leftist jihadi whitewasher"
"DISHONEST infantile debate-stifling rhetorical ploys."
Is it just me, or does the Jamshid troll sound eerily like the Autorantic Virtual Moonbat (created to make fun of lefties, but the point remains).
http://blog.gleeson.us/sean/2004...4/11/21/
avm_0_2
hey Jamshid, who is Cole racist against?
hey Jamshid, who is Cole racist against?
Good for Cole. I hope Carmon gets a good Luskining before this is over, and his ass is bleeding from it.
One caveat, however. I don't agree at all with Cole's attempt to play the "intellectual property" angle on MEMRI's use of articles. The copyright monopolists are the bad guys.
Good for Cole. I hope Carmon gets a good Luskining before this is over, and his ass is bleeding from it.
One caveat, however. I don't agree at all with Cole's attempt to play the "intellectual property" angle on MEMRI's use of articles. The copyright monopolists are the bad guys.
Tess, I'm sure 'xymphora' wrote a similar sternly worded letter to the Syrian consulate when Assad flattened Hama. Or is it preferable for Syria to export its jihadists?
It is logically and morally incoherent to bemoan both the lack of security in Iraq and Iraqi-endorsed efforts to curtail car bombings aimed at Iraqi civil institutions.
Tess, I'm sure 'xymphora' wrote a similar sternly worded letter to the Syrian consulate when Assad flattened Hama. Or is it preferable for Syria to export its jihadists?
It is logically and morally incoherent to bemoan both the lack of security in Iraq and Iraqi-endorsed efforts to curtail car bombings aimed at Iraqi civil institutions.
I don't agree at all with Cole's attempt to play the "intellectual property" angle on MEMRI's use of articles. The copyright monopolists are the bad guys.
I would agree with you if MEMRI didn't claim the translations as its intellectual property.
It is rather hypocritical to engage in copyright piracy and claim that the results are your property under copyright.
I don't agree at all with Cole's attempt to play the "intellectual property" angle on MEMRI's use of articles. The copyright monopolists are the bad guys.
I would agree with you if MEMRI didn't claim the translations as its intellectual property.
It is rather hypocritical to engage in copyright piracy and claim that the results are your property under copyright.
Re: 'Arabs and Muslims are the source of problems'
DO you honestly believe that most or even much criticism of radical Islamic militancy reduces to this clumsy paraphrase?
No, I believe the worldview that MEMRI is attempting to sell reduces to that very direct paraphrase.
I believe that it represents the theme which guides their selection.
I don't believe that each of the particular criticisms that MEMRI chooses to translate reduces just to that -- some of them have deep and valid points. I think that MEMRI selects them because they are consistent, though, with that simple broad theme that MEMRI wants to sell.
That is, I see MEMRI as essentially a PR outfit.
That doesn't mean I think MEMRI lies, I think that for the most part they choose which bits of the truth to publicize to sell their preferred narrative. And, you'll note, even Dr. Cole when he accused them of mistranlation did not ascribe to them dishonest motive.
I think MEMRI's whole method requires them to maintain high standards of integrity in the quality of their translation, because selectivity is a lot harder to prove conclusively, whereas blatant mistranslation would ruin their credibility and ability to be effective at shaping mainstream opinion very quickly.
Re: 'Arabs and Muslims are the source of problems'
DO you honestly believe that most or even much criticism of radical Islamic militancy reduces to this clumsy paraphrase?
No, I believe the worldview that MEMRI is attempting to sell reduces to that very direct paraphrase.
I believe that it represents the theme which guides their selection.
I don't believe that each of the particular criticisms that MEMRI chooses to translate reduces just to that -- some of them have deep and valid points. I think that MEMRI selects them because they are consistent, though, with that simple broad theme that MEMRI wants to sell.
That is, I see MEMRI as essentially a PR outfit.
That doesn't mean I think MEMRI lies, I think that for the most part they choose which bits of the truth to publicize to sell their preferred narrative. And, you'll note, even Dr. Cole when he accused them of mistranlation did not ascribe to them dishonest motive.
I think MEMRI's whole method requires them to maintain high standards of integrity in the quality of their translation, because selectivity is a lot harder to prove conclusively, whereas blatant mistranslation would ruin their credibility and ability to be effective at shaping mainstream opinion very quickly.
I hardly see how 100+ articles written by Arabs and Muslims addresses the simple-minded and false premise that "Arabs and Muslims are the source of all problems". Unless the only valid targets of criticism are forces exogenous to the Arab world, which strikes me as dishonest or naive and also circular reasoning.
I hardly see how 100+ articles written by Arabs and Muslims addresses the simple-minded and false premise that "Arabs and Muslims are the source of all problems". Unless the only valid targets of criticism are forces exogenous to the Arab world, which strikes me as dishonest or naive and also circular reasoning.
"Tess, I'm sure 'xymphora' wrote a similar sternly worded letter to the Syrian consulate when Assad flattened Hama. Or is it preferable for Syria to export its jihadists?"
J, I don't know him/her and have only been reading for a year or so, but for a far left(?)commentator and conspiracy/coincidence theorist, Xymphora rocks. Truly one of the best. Quite insider'ish or at least it seems to me... but Xymphora chooses to stay a mystery.
I have yet to read any racist comments, just strong opinions.
"Tess, I'm sure 'xymphora' wrote a similar sternly worded letter to the Syrian consulate when Assad flattened Hama. Or is it preferable for Syria to export its jihadists?"
J, I don't know him/her and have only been reading for a year or so, but for a far left(?)commentator and conspiracy/coincidence theorist, Xymphora rocks. Truly one of the best. Quite insider'ish or at least it seems to me... but Xymphora chooses to stay a mystery.
I have yet to read any racist comments, just strong opinions.
I would agree with you if MEMRI didn't claim the translations as its intellectual property.
Except that translations are IP (Intellectual Product, I don't use the term "Property". It cedes half the fight to the IP extremists).
Look at translations of the Bible, for example.
Of course, it's not clear to me who gets paid when it's a translation of a work not in the public domain.
I would agree with you if MEMRI didn't claim the translations as its intellectual property.
Except that translations are IP (Intellectual Product, I don't use the term "Property". It cedes half the fight to the IP extremists).
Look at translations of the Bible, for example.
Of course, it's not clear to me who gets paid when it's a translation of a work not in the public domain.
...but that post by Lisa using the NYTimes/David Duke analogy is so off. The correct analogy would be: if the NYTimes did give Duke a regular column, and then I came out with what purportedly was a 'digest' of the NYTimes editorial view...then I selected all their Duke columns and none of Krugman's or anyone on the left. THAT is the correct analogy to what Prof. Cole claims MEMRI does.
No, actually, it isn't. Cole does not claim that MEMRI *completely* ignores moderate Arab voices, because it's not true. MEMRI provides numerous translations (some cited in this thread) of translations that aren't the Middle Eastern equivalent of David Duke.
Cole claims that they highlight and selectively cite the more radical ones. I don't disagree with that assessment, I just don't see it as a particularly meaningful criticism, even if it's not the way that *I* would run such an organization.
...but that post by Lisa using the NYTimes/David Duke analogy is so off. The correct analogy would be: if the NYTimes did give Duke a regular column, and then I came out with what purportedly was a 'digest' of the NYTimes editorial view...then I selected all their Duke columns and none of Krugman's or anyone on the left. THAT is the correct analogy to what Prof. Cole claims MEMRI does.
No, actually, it isn't. Cole does not claim that MEMRI *completely* ignores moderate Arab voices, because it's not true. MEMRI provides numerous translations (some cited in this thread) of translations that aren't the Middle Eastern equivalent of David Duke.
Cole claims that they highlight and selectively cite the more radical ones. I don't disagree with that assessment, I just don't see it as a particularly meaningful criticism, even if it's not the way that *I* would run such an organization.
Except that translations are IP (Intellectual Product, I don't use the term "Property". It cedes half the fight to the IP extremists).
Whether or not you like the term, MEMRI does in fact assert that the translations are its intellectual property under copyright. Translations are, however, derivative works under copyright, the right to produce which is exclusive to the copyright holder. They are violating copyright and at the same time asserting its protection for the product of that violation.
Look at translations of the Bible, for example.
Translations of works in the public domain are subject to the translators copyright as original works; while they are derivative, they are not derivative of anyone else's exclusive property, and thus the original work done in the translation entitles the translator to copyright protection.
Entirely different case.
Except that translations are IP (Intellectual Product, I don't use the term "Property". It cedes half the fight to the IP extremists).
Whether or not you like the term, MEMRI does in fact assert that the translations are its intellectual property under copyright. Translations are, however, derivative works under copyright, the right to produce which is exclusive to the copyright holder. They are violating copyright and at the same time asserting its protection for the product of that violation.
Look at translations of the Bible, for example.
Translations of works in the public domain are subject to the translators copyright as original works; while they are derivative, they are not derivative of anyone else's exclusive property, and thus the original work done in the translation entitles the translator to copyright protection.
Entirely different case.
There is no adult discussion when it comes to Israel. I am a jew baiter for bringing up the words of the Author of Imperial Hubris. Who goes on to say that anyone who raises this issue is an anti-semite. Based on Jashits response, it appears to be a self fulfilling prophecy.
Oh Jakob, Oh, Israel who wrestled with God and got his leg knocked out of its socket, so that he forever travels in circles.
Juan Cole, as was the author of Imperial Hubris, is only trying to explain that our (US) policies are inciting the Muslim community into a DEFENSIVE War, not offensive? Leave their Lands and their OIL and they will leave us alone.
We can't do it because we are addicts, in a country of addicts.
There is no adult discussion when it comes to Israel. I am a jew baiter for bringing up the words of the Author of Imperial Hubris. Who goes on to say that anyone who raises this issue is an anti-semite. Based on Jashits response, it appears to be a self fulfilling prophecy.
Oh Jakob, Oh, Israel who wrestled with God and got his leg knocked out of its socket, so that he forever travels in circles.
Juan Cole, as was the author of Imperial Hubris, is only trying to explain that our (US) policies are inciting the Muslim community into a DEFENSIVE War, not offensive? Leave their Lands and their OIL and they will leave us alone.
We can't do it because we are addicts, in a country of addicts.
Greg, yes, you're being anti-Semitic for saying that Israel is directing our foreign policy. If you're just quoting a book, you might want to make that clear.
Greg, yes, you're being anti-Semitic for saying that Israel is directing our foreign policy. If you're just quoting a book, you might want to make that clear.
Wow, Noz's first post sets off a firestorm. A couple of comments:
1) Cherrypicking: I hate to say it, but anyone who wants to make a point cherry picks. You talk about the points that will bolster your opinion and either not mention or minimize the points that will detract from it. That's the best way to convince someone. This is actually a good way of viewing the world if you seek the truth: EVERYONE is biased, no matter how much they seek to avoid it.
Wow, Noz's first post sets off a firestorm. A couple of comments:
1) Cherrypicking: I hate to say it, but anyone who wants to make a point cherry picks. You talk about the points that will bolster your opinion and either not mention or minimize the points that will detract from it. That's the best way to convince someone. This is actually a good way of viewing the world if you seek the truth: EVERYONE is biased, no matter how much they seek to avoid it.
2) Copyright of translations: If there are copyright lawyers out there, let them speak, otherwise, I'll put in my two-cents based on my limited research into the subject.
Translations of works CAN be copyrighted, partly because of the immense work that goes into the act of translation, and partly because everyone's translation will be a little different. So MEMRI is allowed to claim copyright on the translations it does. This doesn't mean that they can prevent other people from translating the originals themselves. Also, the originals are still covered by whatever copyright applies to that work, and translations MAY actually be a violation of copyright if permission to translate is not attained.
Of course, I could be talking out of me ... um, butt ... here.
2) Copyright of translations: If there are copyright lawyers out there, let them speak, otherwise, I'll put in my two-cents based on my limited research into the subject.
Translations of works CAN be copyrighted, partly because of the immense work that goes into the act of translation, and partly because everyone's translation will be a little different. So MEMRI is allowed to claim copyright on the translations it does. This doesn't mean that they can prevent other people from translating the originals themselves. Also, the originals are still covered by whatever copyright applies to that work, and translations MAY actually be a violation of copyright if permission to translate is not attained.
Of course, I could be talking out of me ... um, butt ... here.
I hate to say it, but anyone who wants to make a point cherry picks.
Of course they do. MEMRI claims to be a neutral "bridge" between the West and Middle East Media, they do not claim -- in fact, they loudly deny -- that they are trying to make a point. The fact that they cherry-pick and how they cherry-pick is cited, rightly so, as evidence that reveals that they do have a non-neutral agenda.
Most people who know seem to acknowledge that MEMRI is generally good as to the technical quality of their translations, although particular translations occasionally are disputed. (I don't know Arabic, so I can't judge these independently; I will only say that Dr. Cole offered a strong explanation for the one case where he disagreed with their translation that, absent any specific counterargument, seems convincing; also that experts that disagree with MEMRI and accuse them of bias, including Dr. Cole, in their selection of material stand by the general quality of that translation, and thus I am, absent any convincing reason to doubt their proficiency, inclined to as well).
I hate to say it, but anyone who wants to make a point cherry picks.
Of course they do. MEMRI claims to be a neutral "bridge" between the West and Middle East Media, they do not claim -- in fact, they loudly deny -- that they are trying to make a point. The fact that they cherry-pick and how they cherry-pick is cited, rightly so, as evidence that reveals that they do have a non-neutral agenda.
Most people who know seem to acknowledge that MEMRI is generally good as to the technical quality of their translations, although particular translations occasionally are disputed. (I don't know Arabic, so I can't judge these independently; I will only say that Dr. Cole offered a strong explanation for the one case where he disagreed with their translation that, absent any specific counterargument, seems convincing; also that experts that disagree with MEMRI and accuse them of bias, including Dr. Cole, in their selection of material stand by the general quality of that translation, and thus I am, absent any convincing reason to doubt their proficiency, inclined to as well).
How much do we think MEMRI is paying Jamshid to troll this site? I'd say minimum wage or less, since his attempts to smear Juan Cole and accuse the rest of us of anti-semitism are so pathetically lame.
How much do we think MEMRI is paying Jamshid to troll this site? I'd say minimum wage or less, since his attempts to smear Juan Cole and accuse the rest of us of anti-semitism are so pathetically lame.
Dave in NYC, if Israel doesn't control our foreign policy, you'd better tell AIPAC that. They're going to want to know where all their money went.
Dave in NYC, if Israel doesn't control our foreign policy, you'd better tell AIPAC that. They're going to want to know where all their money went.
Dave in NYC, if Israel doesn't control our foreign policy, you'd better tell AIPAC that. They're going to want to know where all their money went.
Dave in NYC, if Israel doesn't control our foreign policy, you'd better tell AIPAC that. They're going to want to know where all their money went.
CAIR does the same thing to anyone who dares withhold obeisance to the Religion of Peace [tm]:
Canadian commentator David Frum reports that two weeks ago he and his newspaper, the National Post, "were served with a notice of libel by the Canadian branch of the Council on American Islamic Relations, or CAIR":
The Post and I are not alone. Over the past year, CAIR's Canadian and U.S. branches have served similar libel notices on half a dozen other individuals and organizations in the United States and Canada. Each case has its own particular facts, yet they are linked by a common theme: That we defendants have accused CAIR (in the words of the notice served on me) of being "an unscrupulous, Islamist, extremist sympathetic group in Canada supporting terrorism."
For years now we've been hearing cries of "censorship" from the left whenever anyone so much as criticizes those with anti-American views. Will these supposed champions of free expression say anything about CAIR's efforts to use the legal system to silence its critics? We're not holding our breath.
CAIR does the same thing to anyone who dares withhold obeisance to the Religion of Peace [tm]:
Canadian commentator David Frum reports that two weeks ago he and his newspaper, the National Post, "were served with a notice of libel by the Canadian branch of the Council on American Islamic Relations, or CAIR":
The Post and I are not alone. Over the past year, CAIR's Canadian and U.S. branches have served similar libel notices on half a dozen other individuals and organizations in the United States and Canada. Each case has its own particular facts, yet they are linked by a common theme: That we defendants have accused CAIR (in the words of the notice served on me) of being "an unscrupulous, Islamist, extremist sympathetic group in Canada supporting terrorism."
For years now we've been hearing cries of "censorship" from the left whenever anyone so much as criticizes those with anti-American views. Will these supposed champions of free expression say anything about CAIR's efforts to use the legal system to silence its critics? We're not holding our breath.
If the New York Times had a regular columnist promoting racist hate that in itself would be enough to show that there were problems with that aspect of the US media. Furthermore if the NY Times was owned by the government as many of the newspaper from which MEMRI selects items to translate it would also be a reflection on the government that allows this to proceed.
If the New York Times had a regular columnist promoting racist hate that in itself would be enough to show that there were problems with that aspect of the US media. Furthermore if the NY Times was owned by the government as many of the newspaper from which MEMRI selects items to translate it would also be a reflection on the government that allows this to proceed.
If the New York Times had a regular columnist promoting racist hate that in itself would be enough to show that there were problems with that aspect of the US media. Furthermore if the NY Times was owned by the government as many of the newspaper from which MEMRI selects items to translate it would also be a reflection on the government that allows this to proceed.
I'm sorry, was anyone here questioning the idea that there are problems with much of the Arab media or that their are problems with many Arab governments?
If the New York Times had a regular columnist promoting racist hate that in itself would be enough to show that there were problems with that aspect of the US media. Furthermore if the NY Times was owned by the government as many of the newspaper from which MEMRI selects items to translate it would also be a reflection on the government that allows this to proceed.
I'm sorry, was anyone here questioning the idea that there are problems with much of the Arab media or that their are problems with many Arab governments?
That 'essentially on behalf of Likud' bullshit is right up there with "objectively pro-saddam" in self-serving DISHONEST infantile debate-stifling rhetorical ploys.
But they are in favor of a modern form of Zionism more in line with Likud's than anyone else's, and probably were since before they were IN THE IDF hint hint, whereas the "objectively pro-Saddam" criticism is directed at people who actively worked and hollered against Saddam back when he was on our payroll and these Saddam haters who supposedly defend him by maintaining moral integrity were never in any way in his service. So however you interpret the words, there's always the actual record.
That 'essentially on behalf of Likud' bullshit is right up there with "objectively pro-saddam" in self-serving DISHONEST infantile debate-stifling rhetorical ploys.
But they are in favor of a modern form of Zionism more in line with Likud's than anyone else's, and probably were since before they were IN THE IDF hint hint, whereas the "objectively pro-Saddam" criticism is directed at people who actively worked and hollered against Saddam back when he was on our payroll and these Saddam haters who supposedly defend him by maintaining moral integrity were never in any way in his service. So however you interpret the words, there's always the actual record.
And the pro-Saddam action referred to is the SUPPORT OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, not the contriving of escape routes for people you're too lazy or guilty to do an honest and full prosecution of.
And the pro-Saddam action referred to is the SUPPORT OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, not the contriving of escape routes for people you're too lazy or guilty to do an honest and full prosecution of.
Basharov, congrats on figuring out my pernicious agenda. MEMRI pays me entirely in gentile-blood-flavored biscuits.
I don't think all or even most of the posters here are anti-semites, just the ones who imagine AIPAC or the Zionist entity to be steering US foreign policy.
Greg's more recent post lays off the Zionist conspiracy stuff, but makes the mistake of assuming that if we "leave the Muslim community alone" they will leave us alone. Well we left Saudi Arabia alone for most of its history, bought its oil (from a 'nationalized' Aramco that we ourselves built and wells we drilled) and in fact defended it from invasion. Fat lot of good that did. America also enforced the nationalizing of the Suez & brokered a peace accord that gave Egypt back the Sinai; it continues to give that country billions in aid. Yet Americans are despised in Egypt perhaps more than anywhere else in the entire Mideast. A majority of Egyptians think we deserved 9/11. Our humanitarian missions in Somalia, Kosovo and Bosnia on behalf of Muslims earned us no credit with 'the Muslim world' at all. Osama Bin Laden cites East Timor and Somalia as crusader affronts to Islam!
Basharov, congrats on figuring out my pernicious agenda. MEMRI pays me entirely in gentile-blood-flavored biscuits.
I don't think all or even most of the posters here are anti-semites, just the ones who imagine AIPAC or the Zionist entity to be steering US foreign policy.
Greg's more recent post lays off the Zionist conspiracy stuff, but makes the mistake of assuming that if we "leave the Muslim community alone" they will leave us alone. Well we left Saudi Arabia alone for most of its history, bought its oil (from a 'nationalized' Aramco that we ourselves built and wells we drilled) and in fact defended it from invasion. Fat lot of good that did. America also enforced the nationalizing of the Suez & brokered a peace accord that gave Egypt back the Sinai; it continues to give that country billions in aid. Yet Americans are despised in Egypt perhaps more than anywhere else in the entire Mideast. A majority of Egyptians think we deserved 9/11. Our humanitarian missions in Somalia, Kosovo and Bosnia on behalf of Muslims earned us no credit with 'the Muslim world' at all. Osama Bin Laden cites East Timor and Somalia as crusader affronts to Islam!
Dave in NYC, if Israel doesn't control our foreign policy, you'd better tell AIPAC that. They're going to want to know where all their money went.
I see, so spending money guarantees that you get to control policy. Gotta remember to tell George Soros that one.
Dave in NYC, if Israel doesn't control our foreign policy, you'd better tell AIPAC that. They're going to want to know where all their money went.
I see, so spending money guarantees that you get to control policy. Gotta remember to tell George Soros that one.
How does an IDF service record (in a country where such service is mandatory) suggest affiliation with the Israeli right wing? That's absurd.
How does an IDF service record (in a country where such service is mandatory) suggest affiliation with the Israeli right wing? That's absurd.
It doesn't suggest they're right-wing any more than American military service suggests "conservatism." In other words, this is solid conventional wisdom challenged because it is inconvenient and the wrong people have breought it up, but you would be the one claiming it in another post, say, "support" issues. But of courese Jamshid is Jamshid and nobody else and has never posted here before.
I don't think all or even most of the posters here are anti-semites, just the ones who imagine AIPAC or the Zionist entity to be steering US foreign policy.
AIPAC sinks any politician who doesn't follow its lead. It's not difficult or requiring a conspiracy to have a one-issue veto, and it is in the intersection of such one-issue veto special interests that you find our congress (AIPAC restricting unconditional adoration of the Israeli government to overlarge or embarassing, Detroit restricting fossil fuel addiction to "permanent," energy restricting regulation to legend, Big Pharma restricting health to a luxury item).
It doesn't suggest they're right-wing any more than American military service suggests "conservatism." In other words, this is solid conventional wisdom challenged because it is inconvenient and the wrong people have breought it up, but you would be the one claiming it in another post, say, "support" issues. But of courese Jamshid is Jamshid and nobody else and has never posted here before.
I don't think all or even most of the posters here are anti-semites, just the ones who imagine AIPAC or the Zionist entity to be steering US foreign policy.
AIPAC sinks any politician who doesn't follow its lead. It's not difficult or requiring a conspiracy to have a one-issue veto, and it is in the intersection of such one-issue veto special interests that you find our congress (AIPAC restricting unconditional adoration of the Israeli government to overlarge or embarassing, Detroit restricting fossil fuel addiction to "permanent," energy restricting regulation to legend, Big Pharma restricting health to a luxury item).
I don't think all or even most of the posters here are anti-semites, just the ones who imagine AIPAC or the Zionist entity to be steering US foreign policy.
Did you perhaps miss the Israeli government / AIPAC / Office of Special Plans spy affair?
I don't think all or even most of the posters here are anti-semites, just the ones who imagine AIPAC or the Zionist entity to be steering US foreign policy.
Did you perhaps miss the Israeli government / AIPAC / Office of Special Plans spy affair?
Doug Feith handed over classified docs to the Israeli embassy--and got promoted. Do that to any other embassy, even the British, and see what happens.
Doug Feith handed over classified docs to the Israeli embassy--and got promoted. Do that to any other embassy, even the British, and see what happens.
1. The Great Pretender
Jam-lid, you suffer from a common malady among trolls - you pretend that the world is other than it is.
"Well we left Saudi Arabia alone for most of its history, bought its oil (from a 'nationalized' Aramco that we ourselves built and wells we drilled) and in fact defended it from invasion. Fat lot of good that did."
You pretend. You know full well that the US has never "left SA alone". Ordinary Saudi folks are very much aware that their fates are controlled by a US-propped House whose sole purpose is to provide a dependable affordable supply of oil to your SUV. And you know that too.
Because you seem to need to pretend otherwise does not mean that ordinary Saudis do too. Or do you think they are more foolish than you?
You might say that you aren't pretending. I don't believe that, but if you believe it, then it merely suggests a deeper pathology at work. Let's assume that you actually believe what you wrote above, despite seeming reasonably intelligent and learned. Your belief doesn't advance things much except to suggest a higher order of pretense, called "denial" (no, it's not a river in Egypt!). Anyone with ears has a fairly clear understanding of Arab frustrations, and their reasons. It is one thing disagreeing with them, but another thing entirely to pretend not to understand. If this makes no sense to you then you might want to have a CT scan to rule out a tumor of some kind.
Finally, and just to save you time and the embarrassing need for further childish pretense, I'll make the following utterly unnecessary point: Nobody here believes that 9/11 or terrorism in general is a legitimate way to behave.
2. Red Herring
In addition to your silly pretending about your swarthy enemies, you seem to be trying to make a wide case against Juan Cole himself. This topic is not about him or his views, to which he is, within the law, entitled. Rather it is about the actions of MEMRI in threatening suit frivolously as a means of suppressing critisism (or "free speech", if you prefer).
The topic is narrow: Atrios has asserted that Cole has not said anything libellous and should not therefore be threatened with a libel action.
Do you agree, or disagree with this proposition? If so, why?
Whether Cole is a biased "Arabist" is neither here nore there for present purposes. Most people (beside you it seems) are able to make up their own minds on these matters, and accept that complexity, confusion, bias and and ill-will exist on all sides. Again, your problem seems to come back to having to pretend that the world is other than it is. We in contrast can effortlessly accept that Cole may be biased AND that the law should not be subverted in order to silence him. We therefore see little need to discuss these untroubling concepts, let alone to pretend that they are mutually exclusive.
With a little practice, I'm sure you
1. The Great Pretender
Jam-lid, you suffer from a common malady among trolls - you pretend that the world is other than it is.
"Well we left Saudi Arabia alone for most of its history, bought its oil (from a 'nationalized' Aramco that we ourselves built and wells we drilled) and in fact defended it from invasion. Fat lot of good that did."
You pretend. You know full well that the US has never "left SA alone". Ordinary Saudi folks are very much aware that their fates are controlled by a US-propped House whose sole purpose is to provide a dependable affordable supply of oil to your SUV. And you know that too.
Because you seem to need to pretend otherwise does not mean that ordinary Saudis do too. Or do you think they are more foolish than you?
You might say that you aren't pretending. I don't believe that, but if you believe it, then it merely suggests a deeper pathology at work. Let's assume that you actually believe what you wrote above, despite seeming reasonably intelligent and learned. Your belief doesn't advance things much except to suggest a higher order of pretense, called "denial" (no, it's not a river in Egypt!). Anyone with ears has a fairly clear understanding of Arab frustrations, and their reasons. It is one thing disagreeing with them, but another thing entirely to pretend not to understand. If this makes no sense to you then you might want to have a CT scan to rule out a tumor of some kind.
Finally, and just to save you time and the embarrassing need for further childish pretense, I'll make the following utterly unnecessary point: Nobody here believes that 9/11 or terrorism in general is a legitimate way to behave.
2. Red Herring
In addition to your silly pretending about your swarthy enemies, you seem to be trying to make a wide case against Juan Cole himself. This topic is not about him or his views, to which he is, within the law, entitled. Rather it is about the actions of MEMRI in threatening suit frivolously as a means of suppressing critisism (or "free speech", if you prefer).
The topic is narrow: Atrios has asserted that Cole has not said anything libellous and should not therefore be threatened with a libel action.
Do you agree, or disagree with this proposition? If so, why?
Whether Cole is a biased "Arabist" is neither here nore there for present purposes. Most people (beside you it seems) are able to make up their own minds on these matters, and accept that complexity, confusion, bias and and ill-will exist on all sides. Again, your problem seems to come back to having to pretend that the world is other than it is. We in contrast can effortlessly accept that Cole may be biased AND that the law should not be subverted in order to silence him. We therefore see little need to discuss these untroubling concepts, let alone to pretend that they are mutually exclusive.
With a little practice, I'm sure you
Spot the deliberate error
When I wrote "Atrios" above, I was of course referring to "upyernoz"...
Spot the deliberate error
When I wrote "Atrios" above, I was of course referring to "upyernoz"...
'US-propped House'
The US did not install the Saud family as rulers of Saudi Arabia in 1932. The US has exerted no meaningful influence over Saudi internal affairs, neither sponsored nor thwarted any coups or rebellions. When ARAMCO was "nationalised" in 1976, no CIA hit squad set out to reclaim US mineral rights. The US has used Saudi Arabia as a staging point exactly once in world history, and then in defense of Saudi Arabia itself. It is hard to imagine how US interaction with SA can said to resemble "propping them up" unless simply buying their oil counts (which oil would have to find its way to the US under most circumstances ANYWAY, except during the embargo when of course it didn't, and again, no US intervention.) Those willing to believe the US props up the royal family, or otherwise obstructs democracy there are simply ignorant of Saudi history. Saudi Arabia is not and has never been a US colony.
'US-propped House'
The US did not install the Saud family as rulers of Saudi Arabia in 1932. The US has exerted no meaningful influence over Saudi internal affairs, neither sponsored nor thwarted any coups or rebellions. When ARAMCO was "nationalised" in 1976, no CIA hit squad set out to reclaim US mineral rights. The US has used Saudi Arabia as a staging point exactly once in world history, and then in defense of Saudi Arabia itself. It is hard to imagine how US interaction with SA can said to resemble "propping them up" unless simply buying their oil counts (which oil would have to find its way to the US under most circumstances ANYWAY, except during the embargo when of course it didn't, and again, no US intervention.) Those willing to believe the US props up the royal family, or otherwise obstructs democracy there are simply ignorant of Saudi history. Saudi Arabia is not and has never been a US colony.
It doesn't suggest they're right-wing any more than American military service suggests "conservatism."
no more than 35% of Israelis voted for Likud, which also yields approval ratings in the low 30's. Contrast this with the large percentage of Israelis who are IDF veterans (including all of the Jews.) Your equivalence seems ill-founded to me.
It doesn't suggest they're right-wing any more than American military service suggests "conservatism."
no more than 35% of Israelis voted for Likud, which also yields approval ratings in the low 30's. Contrast this with the large percentage of Israelis who are IDF veterans (including all of the Jews.) Your equivalence seems ill-founded to me.
On the issue of MEMRI's funding, which Cole put at $60 million per year, and Carmon disputes-
MEMRI is a 501(c)3, so this information should be a matter of public record. Anyone who wishes may obtain copies of MEMRI's application for exemption (form 1023) and 3 most recent years annual returns (form 990).
Inspection files must be maintained at the organization's principal office and at any other regularly maintained office having 3 or more employees.
a. Anyone may request a copy of such documents - and only a reasonable copying charge (and mailing cost, if applicable) can be collected.
b. Written requests must be complied with in 30 days. In person requests must be satisfied immediately.
Or, they may be requested from the IRS using form 4506a.
On the issue of MEMRI's funding, which Cole put at $60 million per year, and Carmon disputes-
MEMRI is a 501(c)3, so this information should be a matter of public record. Anyone who wishes may obtain copies of MEMRI's application for exemption (form 1023) and 3 most recent years annual returns (form 990).
Inspection files must be maintained at the organization's principal office and at any other regularly maintained office having 3 or more employees.
a. Anyone may request a copy of such documents - and only a reasonable copying charge (and mailing cost, if applicable) can be collected.
b. Written requests must be complied with in 30 days. In person requests must be satisfied immediately.
Or, they may be requested from the IRS using form 4506a.
Basharov, it is completely shameful for you to suggest that Jamshid takes the positions he does simply for mercenary reasons. Honestly what good can possibly come from that kind of rhetoric?
Btw, Happy Thanksgiving all!
Basharov, it is completely shameful for you to suggest that Jamshid takes the positions he does simply for mercenary reasons. Honestly what good can possibly come from that kind of rhetoric?
Btw, Happy Thanksgiving all!
I like how Juan Cole is whining about a lawsuit threat after he lamely threatened to sue Martin Kramer for linking to his web page. What a jerk!!!
I like how Juan Cole is whining about a lawsuit threat after he lamely threatened to sue Martin Kramer for linking to his web page. What a jerk!!!
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