I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
I can't tell you how eerie your post is since I'm reading a biography of Dewey called "The Education of John Dewey". It's really quite good and his insights into corporations are striking.
I can't tell you how eerie your post is since I'm reading a biography of Dewey called "The Education of John Dewey". It's really quite good and his insights into corporations are striking.
What the hell is going on here? What have you done with my Atrios!??! Who are these people?
...not that I'm complaining. Jus curious.
What the hell is going on here? What have you done with my Atrios!??! Who are these people?
...not that I'm complaining. Jus curious.
Hey, how come no one is here?
Hey, how come no one is here?
~waves~
Hi, Robert M. Jeffers!
~waves~
Hi, Robert M. Jeffers!
Hello, Hecate.
Was going to go with "Rmj" as a signature preference, but figured everyone would wonder who the hell THAT was.
Now if I can just keep the posts to something recognizably political......
Hello, Hecate.
Was going to go with "Rmj" as a signature preference, but figured everyone would wonder who the hell THAT was.
Now if I can just keep the posts to something recognizably political......
Robert M. Jeffers -
Had you gone with RMJ chances are 99.9% of us would have known the source...
*
Robert M. Jeffers -
Had you gone with RMJ chances are 99.9% of us would have known the source...
*
Robert M. Jeffers,
Whatever you post about will be interesting. We've kind of been talking all day about the mastery of the material -- in one form or another.
Robert M. Jeffers,
Whatever you post about will be interesting. We've kind of been talking all day about the mastery of the material -- in one form or another.
... and I mean that as a compliment, of course! 
... and I mean that as a compliment, of course!
Ahem:
RANT! SNARL! BLUE STATES! RED STATES! DELAY! FIRST AMENDMENT! BLACK BOX! SCOTUS! BOOBIES!
Thank you.
Ahem:
RANT! SNARL! BLUE STATES! RED STATES! DELAY! FIRST AMENDMENT! BLACK BOX! SCOTUS! BOOBIES!
Thank you.
Nice post. Someone else might have used the terms "physical" and metaphysical" for either the first or second point, and those terms have that hierarchy built right in there. But when the contrast is actual/ideal and outward matter and in-our-hearts matter, no preference is imnplied.
I like it.
Nice post. Someone else might have used the terms "physical" and metaphysical" for either the first or second point, and those terms have that hierarchy built right in there. But when the contrast is actual/ideal and outward matter and in-our-hearts matter, no preference is imnplied.
I like it.
Damn. Robert M. Jeffers is hella smart.
Um, all I know is God helps keep me alive and sober.
Damn. Robert M. Jeffers is hella smart.
Um, all I know is God helps keep me alive and sober.
Okay totally OT, but this is amusing.
A teacher asked the visiting President Busg if he would like to lead a discussion about the word 'tragedy'. So, the illustrious leader asked the class for an example of a 'tragedy'.
One little boy stood up and offered: "If my best friend, who lives on a farm, is playing in the field and a tractor runs him over and kills him, that would be a tragedy."
"No," says Bush, "that would be an accident."
A little girl raised her hand: "If a school bus carrying 50 children drove over a cliff, killing everyone inside, that would be a tragedy."
"I'm afraid not," explained the President, "that's what we would call a great loss."
The room went silent. No other children volunteered. Bush searched the room.
"Isn't there someone here who can give me an example of tragedy?"
Finally at the back of the room a small boy raised his hand. In a quiet voice he said: "If an aircraft carrying you, Mr. Bush, was struck by a 'f! riendly fire' missile and blown to smithereens, that would be a tragedy."
"Fantastic!" exclaimed Bush. "That's right. And can you tell me why that would be a tragedy?"
"Well," says the boy, "it would have to be a tragedy, because it certainly wouldn't be a great loss and it probably wouldn't be an accident either."
Haha...ain't it the truth?
Okay totally OT, but this is amusing.
A teacher asked the visiting President Busg if he would like to lead a discussion about the word 'tragedy'. So, the illustrious leader asked the class for an example of a 'tragedy'.
One little boy stood up and offered: "If my best friend, who lives on a farm, is playing in the field and a tractor runs him over and kills him, that would be a tragedy."
"No," says Bush, "that would be an accident."
A little girl raised her hand: "If a school bus carrying 50 children drove over a cliff, killing everyone inside, that would be a tragedy."
"I'm afraid not," explained the President, "that's what we would call a great loss."
The room went silent. No other children volunteered. Bush searched the room.
"Isn't there someone here who can give me an example of tragedy?"
Finally at the back of the room a small boy raised his hand. In a quiet voice he said: "If an aircraft carrying you, Mr. Bush, was struck by a 'f! riendly fire' missile and blown to smithereens, that would be a tragedy."
"Fantastic!" exclaimed Bush. "That's right. And can you tell me why that would be a tragedy?"
"Well," says the boy, "it would have to be a tragedy, because it certainly wouldn't be a great loss and it probably wouldn't be an accident either."
Haha...ain't it the truth?
"We have explored, on behalf of all mankind, this paradox: the more matter is outwardly mastered, the more it overwhelms us in our hearts."
What does he mean here?
Is he talking about something like science? Or self-knowledge and self-centeredness?
Or morality?
"We have explored, on behalf of all mankind, this paradox: the more matter is outwardly mastered, the more it overwhelms us in our hearts."
What does he mean here?
Is he talking about something like science? Or self-knowledge and self-centeredness?
Or morality?
What does he mean here?
Is he talking about something like science? Or self-knowledge and self-centeredness?
It's from the story, so you can (as with most Updike) take it several ways at once. The character was getting at the paradox that, the more we seem to master the material world (buildings, travel, even, now, agriculture), the more we think, in other words, that we have risen above it, as a master is above a slave, the more we feel for that material world (which we felt little compunction about forcing into our designs, whether it would go or not).
Despite our self-assurances that we are the masters of creation (if not the Universe, as Tom Wolfe once called some of us), we find ourselves always bent back to the material things we want to ascend away from.
Or something like that.....
What does he mean here?
Is he talking about something like science? Or self-knowledge and self-centeredness?
It's from the story, so you can (as with most Updike) take it several ways at once. The character was getting at the paradox that, the more we seem to master the material world (buildings, travel, even, now, agriculture), the more we think, in other words, that we have risen above it, as a master is above a slave, the more we feel for that material world (which we felt little compunction about forcing into our designs, whether it would go or not).
Despite our self-assurances that we are the masters of creation (if not the Universe, as Tom Wolfe once called some of us), we find ourselves always bent back to the material things we want to ascend away from.
Or something like that.....
So I come here after this Helliday and I see Mr. Jeffers has the keys?
Well, I was about to go to bed. But maybe I'll stick around (at least for a moment).
.
So I come here after this Helliday and I see Mr. Jeffers has the keys?
Well, I was about to go to bed. But maybe I'll stick around (at least for a moment).
.
God as a Platonic concept.
Distinct and Independent.
Of course on its most fundamental terms, human rights exist independent of any Government action. To recognize them is to to acknowledge the endownment of beings created equal in standing with regard to personal rights.
So the Constitution is an attempt to endow/empower the individual to the point they can realize the Divne fulfillment of self in all forms of recognition. Politically, Socially, Sexually, Intellectually, Spiritually. Each point being shades of colors from the same palette. Not entirely seperate from the other, but drawing from the other key essential aspects of its nature whose presence balances our common held/shared Beliefs and distinguishes the richness of complex diversity in all these at the same instant.
The ideal will never be reached for all by all, because its realization is deoendent upon inherent individual enlightenment.
The process is in itself magic, and what is to celebrated. Life in all its stages as the way society celebrates such existential passage.
God as a Platonic concept.
Distinct and Independent.
Of course on its most fundamental terms, human rights exist independent of any Government action. To recognize them is to to acknowledge the endownment of beings created equal in standing with regard to personal rights.
So the Constitution is an attempt to endow/empower the individual to the point they can realize the Divne fulfillment of self in all forms of recognition. Politically, Socially, Sexually, Intellectually, Spiritually. Each point being shades of colors from the same palette. Not entirely seperate from the other, but drawing from the other key essential aspects of its nature whose presence balances our common held/shared Beliefs and distinguishes the richness of complex diversity in all these at the same instant.
The ideal will never be reached for all by all, because its realization is deoendent upon inherent individual enlightenment.
The process is in itself magic, and what is to celebrated. Life in all its stages as the way society celebrates such existential passage.
"I can't tell you how eerie your post is since I'm reading a biography of Dewey called "The Education of John Dewey". It's really quite good and his insights into corporations are striking." -- dedominator
Really weird.
A very good and very non-political friend gave me that biography today. And another gave me the Updike collection yesterday as a Thanksgiving present.
I reckon there is something in the air.
"I can't tell you how eerie your post is since I'm reading a biography of Dewey called "The Education of John Dewey". It's really quite good and his insights into corporations are striking." -- dedominator
Really weird.
A very good and very non-political friend gave me that biography today. And another gave me the Updike collection yesterday as a Thanksgiving present.
I reckon there is something in the air.
robert m. jeffers is in da house!!!!!
robert m. jeffers is in da house!!!!!
Despite our self-assurances that we are the masters of creation
The Sear Tower is a pathetic mote of dust made by puny humans in comparison to an awesome creation such as this.
Nature always bats last.
Despite our self-assurances that we are the masters of creation
The Sear Tower is a pathetic mote of dust made by puny humans in comparison to an awesome creation such as this.
Nature always bats last.
We are all Allahs servants!
Master?
Sounds like the Judge had some wine tonight??
We are all Allahs servants!
Master?
Sounds like the Judge had some wine tonight??
I know it's off-topic:
We had a marine killed here in Gloucester City, NJ.
Well, talk about having it shoved down our throats what a "hero" he is, how he "made the ultimate sacrifice", ad nauseam. This is all we've heard here for the past two weeks.
This guy was 25 and because his dad and granddad were marines he enlists after high school.
His dad did a tour of Viet Nam.....don't some people learn?
He'd already served in Afghanistan, but when his hitch was up, he RE-ENLISTED. It was to "help younger marines."
If he REALLY wanted to "help younger marines", perhaps he should have done what John Kerry did during Viet Nam and PROTESTED this ego trip of President Jerkoff's - NOT signed up again to help kill MORE Iraqis.
Hero? Hardly? Ultimate sacrifice? No way.
A colossal WASTE was what it is...and for what?
I know it's off-topic:
We had a marine killed here in Gloucester City, NJ.
Well, talk about having it shoved down our throats what a "hero" he is, how he "made the ultimate sacrifice", ad nauseam. This is all we've heard here for the past two weeks.
This guy was 25 and because his dad and granddad were marines he enlists after high school.
His dad did a tour of Viet Nam.....don't some people learn?
He'd already served in Afghanistan, but when his hitch was up, he RE-ENLISTED. It was to "help younger marines."
If he REALLY wanted to "help younger marines", perhaps he should have done what John Kerry did during Viet Nam and PROTESTED this ego trip of President Jerkoff's - NOT signed up again to help kill MORE Iraqis.
Hero? Hardly? Ultimate sacrifice? No way.
A colossal WASTE was what it is...and for what?
Obama on Letterman.
Obama on Letterman.
Updike, Travels with Charley, Existentialism, do not try and read too much into it.
Very Santorum man-and-Doggish novel.
Sorry if that line makes you spit coffee... hmmmm, Updike, coffee, turkee... happy holidays.
Only 25 shopping days until Christmas.
T minus 25 and counting...
There is less money than ever to shop with, AWOL needs a new terra event soon to distract us from his terrible economy and he can blame the economy slu,p on scared shoppers.
Iran is onto to this trick, Chalabi is still spinning away Nuke news lies and the Pakistan-Osama Nuke trail is lighting up like a big ol' holdiay tree and still goes under-repoterd...
Updike, Travels with Charley, Existentialism, do not try and read too much into it.
Very Santorum man-and-Doggish novel.
Sorry if that line makes you spit coffee... hmmmm, Updike, coffee, turkee... happy holidays.
Only 25 shopping days until Christmas.
T minus 25 and counting...
There is less money than ever to shop with, AWOL needs a new terra event soon to distract us from his terrible economy and he can blame the economy slu,p on scared shoppers.
Iran is onto to this trick, Chalabi is still spinning away Nuke news lies and the Pakistan-Osama Nuke trail is lighting up like a big ol' holdiay tree and still goes under-repoterd...
Can't respond intelligently, but will say this: one of the things that I really like about liberal blogs (no offense) is that they constantly push me to better myself in any number of ways. I'm reminded of that bit from Dead Poet's Society:
Charlie: (clearing throat) Gentlemen, "Poetrusic" by Charles Dalton. (He plays a series of random notes. Everyone else moans and groans.) Laughing, crying, tumbling, mumbling, gotta do more. Gotta be more. (more playing) Chaos screaming. Chaos dreaming. Gotta do more. Gotta be more! (He plays a haunting melody that echoes through the cave.)
Nice being surrounded my people more intelligent than me.
Can't respond intelligently, but will say this: one of the things that I really like about liberal blogs (no offense) is that they constantly push me to better myself in any number of ways. I'm reminded of that bit from Dead Poet's Society:
Charlie: (clearing throat) Gentlemen, "Poetrusic" by Charles Dalton. (He plays a series of random notes. Everyone else moans and groans.) Laughing, crying, tumbling, mumbling, gotta do more. Gotta be more. (more playing) Chaos screaming. Chaos dreaming. Gotta do more. Gotta be more! (He plays a haunting melody that echoes through the cave.)
Nice being surrounded my people more intelligent than me.
Jeebus, Jeffers. Philosophical heavy lifting, an incisive post... I mean, love it, but what happened to the "Screw Bush and the Media sucks!" posts? Not that I'm complaining...
Speaking of weird coincidences, I am reading "The Metaphysical Club" of which Dewey plays a prominent role. Great book, IMHO.
The marriage of the actual and the ideal was shattered for me on November 2nd. I truly thought that the actual (people of all shapes and sizes would see Bush as hopeless and they would vote for Kerry) would merge with the ideal (same people would get behind Kerry and we would get out of the obvious dark hole we are in).
As for matter, it seems to be ignored or assumed to be mastered by 51% of the country. This may be way too political in analysis but I truly believe that on November 2nd over half the country said goodbye to deep thinking--unless their idea of deep thinking is faith in the face of a contrary reality, in which case the actual and the ideal are at war for the majority of voters, and better for all that never the twain shall meet.
Shorter version: Dewey wouldn't recognize this country. And he'd have company.
Jeebus, Jeffers. Philosophical heavy lifting, an incisive post... I mean, love it, but what happened to the "Screw Bush and the Media sucks!" posts? Not that I'm complaining...
Speaking of weird coincidences, I am reading "The Metaphysical Club" of which Dewey plays a prominent role. Great book, IMHO.
The marriage of the actual and the ideal was shattered for me on November 2nd. I truly thought that the actual (people of all shapes and sizes would see Bush as hopeless and they would vote for Kerry) would merge with the ideal (same people would get behind Kerry and we would get out of the obvious dark hole we are in).
As for matter, it seems to be ignored or assumed to be mastered by 51% of the country. This may be way too political in analysis but I truly believe that on November 2nd over half the country said goodbye to deep thinking--unless their idea of deep thinking is faith in the face of a contrary reality, in which case the actual and the ideal are at war for the majority of voters, and better for all that never the twain shall meet.
Shorter version: Dewey wouldn't recognize this country. And he'd have company.
Robert, glad to see you up on the big blog stage!
Surely we can see a marriage of the ideal and the actual. The first ideal is that of showing people how they can actually have an effect through action: the ideal of replacing cynicism with hope. Becoming involved on a local level is the first step here.
On later reflection I don't think we did enough work simply combatting cynicism this time around, the ingrained attitude that politics is just some big game, maybe you pick sides & like seeing your team win, but that's about it, it has no real impact on your life.
Robert, glad to see you up on the big blog stage!
Surely we can see a marriage of the ideal and the actual. The first ideal is that of showing people how they can actually have an effect through action: the ideal of replacing cynicism with hope. Becoming involved on a local level is the first step here.
On later reflection I don't think we did enough work simply combatting cynicism this time around, the ingrained attitude that politics is just some big game, maybe you pick sides & like seeing your team win, but that's about it, it has no real impact on your life.
Terry C - your OT is right on!
Terry C - your OT is right on!
We are but spirits in the material world.
We are but spirits in the material world.
This religious stuff is way too profound for me. I'm going to get some more wine.
This religious stuff is way too profound for me. I'm going to get some more wine.
If there really was a God he wouldn't let the "kewl kid"-troll (or is it a parody?) muck up the threads here. He would go all Old Testament on that pest's ass...
Or is it God's plan to test me in this way?
If there really was a God he wouldn't let the "kewl kid"-troll (or is it a parody?) muck up the threads here. He would go all Old Testament on that pest's ass...
Or is it God's plan to test me in this way?
Bloggy.
Bloggy.
This religious stuff is way too profound for me. I'm going to get some more wine.
Way ahead of you......
This religious stuff is way too profound for me. I'm going to get some more wine.
Way ahead of you......
Sounds like some people tonight are experiencing a bit of Dewey Synchronicity.
Sounds like some people tonight are experiencing a bit of Dewey Synchronicity.
I'm a Jung fan. Sorry.
I'm a Jung fan. Sorry.
I got to see (or hear, really) Updike when he came to New York not too long ago to do a reading from "Early Stories." It was really quite good.
I got to see (or hear, really) Updike when he came to New York not too long ago to do a reading from "Early Stories." It was really quite good.
Terry C-
My oldest friend is a lifer in the 82nd. Airborne.
We sure as hell don't agree in politics but he's been there...Panama, Gulf War, now this thing, Bush's War.
I'll have nothing to do with the military but if my friend is killed for GW I'll...
.
Terry C-
My oldest friend is a lifer in the 82nd. Airborne.
We sure as hell don't agree in politics but he's been there...Panama, Gulf War, now this thing, Bush's War.
I'll have nothing to do with the military but if my friend is killed for GW I'll...
.
i always feel like an ignoramus when people bring up updike. i just find him really tedious.
i always feel like an ignoramus when people bring up updike. i just find him really tedious.
Thersites, my fellow Greek moniker, I think this was done in spades this last time around. Locally, nationally, the Democrats *were* involved. Hell, Bruce Springsteen was out for the first time since McGovern ran. People of all ages were intensely aware, it seemed to me, of this election and therefore were very aware that this was no game. Bush being re-elected will impact all of our lives.
It didn't work. The media is an entity I'd like to blame the most and they certainly deserve some raspberries for the piss-poor job but I can't escape the conclusion that 51% of the country just doesn't give a shit about the reality of our political situation. You want cynicism? Democrats talked about issues and we got instead the Swift Boat Jackasses and Gay-Marriage-is-coming-to-get-you as issues. The fuckers wore band-aids for purple hearts on the fucking convention floor, pardon my language and they *still* won.
But your right, of course. Involvement at the local level is pretty damn key if we want to do anything in 2006.
Thersites, my fellow Greek moniker, I think this was done in spades this last time around. Locally, nationally, the Democrats *were* involved. Hell, Bruce Springsteen was out for the first time since McGovern ran. People of all ages were intensely aware, it seemed to me, of this election and therefore were very aware that this was no game. Bush being re-elected will impact all of our lives.
It didn't work. The media is an entity I'd like to blame the most and they certainly deserve some raspberries for the piss-poor job but I can't escape the conclusion that 51% of the country just doesn't give a shit about the reality of our political situation. You want cynicism? Democrats talked about issues and we got instead the Swift Boat Jackasses and Gay-Marriage-is-coming-to-get-you as issues. The fuckers wore band-aids for purple hearts on the fucking convention floor, pardon my language and they *still* won.
But your right, of course. Involvement at the local level is pretty damn key if we want to do anything in 2006.
God is an invention of/for people who are afraid of the realities of life.
God is an invention of/for people who are afraid of the realities of life.
Hey guys. I see you bobo liberals are talking about God. Newsflash: God isn't some hippie bullshit theory dipped in patcholie oil. God drinks beer and shops at Wal Mart, so your opinion isn't important.
Anyway, here's some great news about poverty.
You see, I have millions upon millions of dollars and I live in a Manhattan penthouse, so I am knowledgable about the filthy brown masses who make my Nike trainers. Listen, if you want an honest appraisal of how totally fucking awesome everything is in the sprawling slums of Bangladesh, there's no better person to talk to than the people who work for Wall Street executives.
Even though the wealth disparity in this country is the largest since the Gilden Age, everything is just fucking peachy keen, so stop your sniveling. Got it? And put some fucking extra whip on that grande mochiato like I told you to.
And hurry up. I need to catch a cab to East 82nd.
Hey guys. I see you bobo liberals are talking about God. Newsflash: God isn't some hippie bullshit theory dipped in patcholie oil. God drinks beer and shops at Wal Mart, so your opinion isn't important.
Anyway, here's some great news about poverty.
You see, I have millions upon millions of dollars and I live in a Manhattan penthouse, so I am knowledgable about the filthy brown masses who make my Nike trainers. Listen, if you want an honest appraisal of how totally fucking awesome everything is in the sprawling slums of Bangladesh, there's no better person to talk to than the people who work for Wall Street executives.
Even though the wealth disparity in this country is the largest since the Gilden Age, everything is just fucking peachy keen, so stop your sniveling. Got it? And put some fucking extra whip on that grande mochiato like I told you to.
And hurry up. I need to catch a cab to East 82nd.
sharon needles, not all religions are based on fear. modern american fundamentalist christianity is. so is modern islamic fundamentalism. faith can give people strength and courage though.
sharon needles, not all religions are based on fear. modern american fundamentalist christianity is. so is modern islamic fundamentalism. faith can give people strength and courage though.
RMJ, I say this with great respect. I love your post tonight and I always enjoy reading what you post. However.
I'm still on a jag about the last thread. I've been almost mute since the election. I'm tired of silence.
We, in the Red States, need the rest of you. Do you all realize that most of the Red States were within a few percentage points of being blue?
For all of you with families, and I know you are many, in the Red, go home for the holidays and think about staying. It is not only your votes that are needed the next time; it is your input and your energy.
Please think about the places that are "Red". In large part, these are areas that the young have left and abandoned.
I frequently talk about the "blue" condition of my local community. I'm very happy that is the case but it won't stay that way long at the rate things are going. Our local young are going away and not coming back. Our older folks, who understand, are dying off.
We're being invaded by suburbanites from Indianapolis who work for Lily or somesuch. Oddly, these are the chronologically matured children of "blue staters" that have come here looking for some fantasy of middle America that never really existed. They are determined to create it.
They are destroying the real heartland in the process.
The children of our local factory folks and farmers have to move on or die or work for $10 an hour at some stupid job they hate. They're leaving in droves for Chicago, Seattle and NYC or other similar "blue" cities.
Where are they going to come home to?
I know it's hard to recognize at times but Kansas City and Louisville and Indianapolis and Nashville and Columbus and Jackson and Little Rock and Omaha and Cheyenne and all their surrounds are really home to much of America.
Take care of home. Don't run away from it.
And, yes, I can talk about Updike here. And Chomsky. They read a hell of a lot more than Oprah's selections out here.
Hell, there's even a little group of us that get together and discuss Stone and Trotsky every week or two. On a really wild night I can get about a dozen farmers together to bitch about global warming. Not kidding about that. We have a very active environmental group here.
If your family is from the midwest or the south and you are wondering what to do this holiday season, go home. Go and visit. Think about staying. Concentrate on what's good and what you can do good to change what you don't like. Get over the obvious differences and think about the commonalities.
Stop by my place, I'll cook for you and give you a book for the road.
RMJ, I say this with great respect. I love your post tonight and I always enjoy reading what you post. However.
I'm still on a jag about the last thread. I've been almost mute since the election. I'm tired of silence.
We, in the Red States, need the rest of you. Do you all realize that most of the Red States were within a few percentage points of being blue?
For all of you with families, and I know you are many, in the Red, go home for the holidays and think about staying. It is not only your votes that are needed the next time; it is your input and your energy.
Please think about the places that are "Red". In large part, these are areas that the young have left and abandoned.
I frequently talk about the "blue" condition of my local community. I'm very happy that is the case but it won't stay that way long at the rate things are going. Our local young are going away and not coming back. Our older folks, who understand, are dying off.
We're being invaded by suburbanites from Indianapolis who work for Lily or somesuch. Oddly, these are the chronologically matured children of "blue staters" that have come here looking for some fantasy of middle America that never really existed. They are determined to create it.
They are destroying the real heartland in the process.
The children of our local factory folks and farmers have to move on or die or work for $10 an hour at some stupid job they hate. They're leaving in droves for Chicago, Seattle and NYC or other similar "blue" cities.
Where are they going to come home to?
I know it's hard to recognize at times but Kansas City and Louisville and Indianapolis and Nashville and Columbus and Jackson and Little Rock and Omaha and Cheyenne and all their surrounds are really home to much of America.
Take care of home. Don't run away from it.
And, yes, I can talk about Updike here. And Chomsky. They read a hell of a lot more than Oprah's selections out here.
Hell, there's even a little group of us that get together and discuss Stone and Trotsky every week or two. On a really wild night I can get about a dozen farmers together to bitch about global warming. Not kidding about that. We have a very active environmental group here.
If your family is from the midwest or the south and you are wondering what to do this holiday season, go home. Go and visit. Think about staying. Concentrate on what's good and what you can do good to change what you don't like. Get over the obvious differences and think about the commonalities.
Stop by my place, I'll cook for you and give you a book for the road.
heh@ david brooks. i won't register for the times online, so i can't read bobo's most recent opus. the thing is, i don't have to. it is exactly like all of his other shiny happy opusses.
(i know "opi" is probably correct, i just think it's a silly looking word.)
heh@ david brooks. i won't register for the times online, so i can't read bobo's most recent opus. the thing is, i don't have to. it is exactly like all of his other shiny happy opusses.
(i know "opi" is probably correct, i just think it's a silly looking word.)
faith can give people strength and courage though.
And it can propel people to make beautiful works of art and letters.
faith can give people strength and courage though.
And it can propel people to make beautiful works of art and letters.
i won't register for the times online
Psst.
i won't register for the times online
Psst.
Hi, RMJ. Good post.
If we are proud members of the reality-based community, that means we are always tempering our adherence to the ideal (the kind of nation we could be, the kind of nation our leaders have summoned us to be at our best) with a due regard to the actual (the world as it is, life as it is actually lived).
Unlike the faith-based community around W, which cares for nothing outside its theories and ideals.
Hi, RMJ. Good post.
If we are proud members of the reality-based community, that means we are always tempering our adherence to the ideal (the kind of nation we could be, the kind of nation our leaders have summoned us to be at our best) with a due regard to the actual (the world as it is, life as it is actually lived).
Unlike the faith-based community around W, which cares for nothing outside its theories and ideals.
For myself, I see the division as one between immanence and transcendence. Is God in each of us, acting when we reach out to each other? Or is God a distant figure, author of obscure codes which we misinterpret at our peril? Clearly, I lean toward the former.
Many here eschew traditional religious faith, because what traditional religious faith has shown them is bigotry and narrowmindedness. But we are joined in our faith in humanity, that we can and must do better for each other. That's my conception of God, immanent in each person.
They can keep their transcendent adjudicator/punisher.
For myself, I see the division as one between immanence and transcendence. Is God in each of us, acting when we reach out to each other? Or is God a distant figure, author of obscure codes which we misinterpret at our peril? Clearly, I lean toward the former.
Many here eschew traditional religious faith, because what traditional religious faith has shown them is bigotry and narrowmindedness. But we are joined in our faith in humanity, that we can and must do better for each other. That's my conception of God, immanent in each person.
They can keep their transcendent adjudicator/punisher.
yeah, i know, hat. i just don't do it because i don't think it should be required. plus there is never anything worth reading there anyway. life is way to short to spend any of it reading any of that low grade prose they churn out day after dreary day.
yeah, i know, hat. i just don't do it because i don't think it should be required. plus there is never anything worth reading there anyway. life is way to short to spend any of it reading any of that low grade prose they churn out day after dreary day.
whoosh
that went right over my head.
fuckin elitist!!!!
whoosh
that went right over my head.
fuckin elitist!!!!
(i know "opi" is probably correct, i just think it's a silly looking word.)
Actually, 'opera' would be the correct Latin plural of 'opus.'
(i know "opi" is probably correct, i just think it's a silly looking word.)
Actually, 'opera' would be the correct Latin plural of 'opus.'
Olaf:
Sometimes I get carried away, but I was born and raised on good ol' fire breathin', vengeful God, Southern Baptist bullshit. Needless to say, I've rejected the whole thing. I don't need the promise of everlasting life or the threat of infinite punishment to guide my life.
Maybe I should consider Buddhism.
Olaf:
Sometimes I get carried away, but I was born and raised on good ol' fire breathin', vengeful God, Southern Baptist bullshit. Needless to say, I've rejected the whole thing. I don't need the promise of everlasting life or the threat of infinite punishment to guide my life.
Maybe I should consider Buddhism.
"We have explored, on behalf of all mankind, this paradox: the more matter is outwardly mastered, the more it overwhelms us in our hearts."
Because controlling and dominating the natural world has grievous unintended consequences on human/planetary health -- Chernobyl, Rocky Flats, Hanford Nuke Res, Chemical Corridor in Louisiana (thank you Monsanto) etc. -- and such dreadful suffering overwhelms the heart. That is, if you have one.
"We have explored, on behalf of all mankind, this paradox: the more matter is outwardly mastered, the more it overwhelms us in our hearts."
Because controlling and dominating the natural world has grievous unintended consequences on human/planetary health -- Chernobyl, Rocky Flats, Hanford Nuke Res, Chemical Corridor in Louisiana (thank you Monsanto) etc. -- and such dreadful suffering overwhelms the heart. That is, if you have one.
sharon, i wasn't talking about myself when i said faith gives people strength and courage. mostly it gives me the heebie jeebies. i was raised by religious crackpots too. my parents are born again episcopalians who speak in tongues and wish they had been born jewish so they could be messianic ones.
sharon, i wasn't talking about myself when i said faith gives people strength and courage. mostly it gives me the heebie jeebies. i was raised by religious crackpots too. my parents are born again episcopalians who speak in tongues and wish they had been born jewish so they could be messianic ones.
I'm late to the thread, but I think it's awesome that you're guesting, Robert. I always enjoy your posts.
S'nervewracking, isn't it? I got done with my little part of Team PHAT's posting week and thought, "Whew, now that's over I can get some sleep again."
A.
I'm late to the thread, but I think it's awesome that you're guesting, Robert. I always enjoy your posts.
S'nervewracking, isn't it? I got done with my little part of Team PHAT's posting week and thought, "Whew, now that's over I can get some sleep again."
A.
Kill Them Before They Feast: CSPAN (Can Somebody Please Audit these Numskulls?) interrupts with another replay of the immediate fallout from the derailed $338 billion omnibus bill.
Kill Them Before They Feast: CSPAN (Can Somebody Please Audit these Numskulls?) interrupts with another replay of the immediate fallout from the derailed $338 billion omnibus bill.
Sharon,
See, I think to claim to be a person of faith, without doing anything, is an act of fear. To put your money where your mouth is, to help others because it's right, that's courage.
FWIW, my parents dropped out of society when I was in college to build housing for the poor. They ended up building a Catholic Worker community, which they ran well into my mother's fatal illness. My father, now widowed, recently founded a group at his church called Just Faith.
Sharon,
See, I think to claim to be a person of faith, without doing anything, is an act of fear. To put your money where your mouth is, to help others because it's right, that's courage.
FWIW, my parents dropped out of society when I was in college to build housing for the poor. They ended up building a Catholic Worker community, which they ran well into my mother's fatal illness. My father, now widowed, recently founded a group at his church called Just Faith.
This religious stuff is way too profound for me. I'm going to get some more wine.
Way ahead of you......
Well, I doubt that very much, as I have been imbibing ever since parting company with my fundie in-laws after the Thanksgiving from hell.
But anyway, I don't think my problem is really the wine. I think my problem is that I was brought up on the Nicene creed, with its explanation that God is God because he's made of god-substance. Which is all well and good if you're a 1st Century Neoplatonist with Stoic leanings, but really leaves you kind of unprepared for useful discussion on the nature of God if you live any time after the Reformation.
This religious stuff is way too profound for me. I'm going to get some more wine.
Way ahead of you......
Well, I doubt that very much, as I have been imbibing ever since parting company with my fundie in-laws after the Thanksgiving from hell.
But anyway, I don't think my problem is really the wine. I think my problem is that I was brought up on the Nicene creed, with its explanation that God is God because he's made of god-substance. Which is all well and good if you're a 1st Century Neoplatonist with Stoic leanings, but really leaves you kind of unprepared for useful discussion on the nature of God if you live any time after the Reformation.
And hurry up. I need to catch a cab to East 82nd.
there is NO WAY brooks lives higher than 72nd.
& olaf you are absolutley right, there is NO NEED to ever look @ a brooks column; i'm sure any of us here could do a dead-on parody without even being told the topic!!!!!!!
And hurry up. I need to catch a cab to East 82nd.
there is NO WAY brooks lives higher than 72nd.
& olaf you are absolutley right, there is NO NEED to ever look @ a brooks column; i'm sure any of us here could do a dead-on parody without even being told the topic!!!!!!!
thanks, wile e. "opera" isn't bad. maybe i will use it next time i need to pluralize "opus". i kind of like the look of "opusses" though. . .
thanks, wile e. "opera" isn't bad. maybe i will use it next time i need to pluralize "opus". i kind of like the look of "opusses" though. . .
Hi Robert! Great post!
Hi Robert! Great post!
Oh, and forgive the blogwhore, but if you want to see the miracle of creation, click the homepage link.
Oh, and forgive the blogwhore, but if you want to see the miracle of creation, click the homepage link.
Good to see you as a guest host, RMJ.
I spent this cold and damp November evening in front of the fireplace with the cats, a little glass of Tullamore Dew (I like Black Bush better), and my tattered copy of The Last Hurrah.
God, that's a good book. All Democrats should re-read it every few years; all Irish-American urban Democrats (like myself) should read it more often than that.
The story is this, if you've never read it: The Mayor is a pol of the old school, and he's running for re-election. He invites his grown nephew (his only kin, besides his lightweight son) to follow along on the campaign, just for fun. One of the great scenes is at a wake, where the Mayor takes charge, gently and charmingly, makes sure there's a crowd around (all chatting politics) to comfort the widow, pressures the undertaker to lower his bill, and makes the crowd stick around to pray the Rosary for the dead man. The nephew is shocked. It's explained to him that one of the Mayor's roles is as tribal chieftain.
It's a great illustration of the fact that there's more to the political life than the platonic ideals sketched in the Declaration and the Constitution; there's also the tribal thing, whether we recognize it or not; it certainly plays out more visibly on the local level (I'm in Chicago. I see it every day).
But that tribal thing is shifting: it's not necessarily aligned with ethnicity anymore. You know those diagrams of partly overlapping circles? I think the tribal thing is starting to look more like that.
I can't develop this thought a whole lot further without more Tullamore Dew, but if I have more Tullamore Dew, I won't be able to articulate the thought, so I'll leave it there.
Good to see you as a guest host, RMJ.
I spent this cold and damp November evening in front of the fireplace with the cats, a little glass of Tullamore Dew (I like Black Bush better), and my tattered copy of The Last Hurrah.
God, that's a good book. All Democrats should re-read it every few years; all Irish-American urban Democrats (like myself) should read it more often than that.
The story is this, if you've never read it: The Mayor is a pol of the old school, and he's running for re-election. He invites his grown nephew (his only kin, besides his lightweight son) to follow along on the campaign, just for fun. One of the great scenes is at a wake, where the Mayor takes charge, gently and charmingly, makes sure there's a crowd around (all chatting politics) to comfort the widow, pressures the undertaker to lower his bill, and makes the crowd stick around to pray the Rosary for the dead man. The nephew is shocked. It's explained to him that one of the Mayor's roles is as tribal chieftain.
It's a great illustration of the fact that there's more to the political life than the platonic ideals sketched in the Declaration and the Constitution; there's also the tribal thing, whether we recognize it or not; it certainly plays out more visibly on the local level (I'm in Chicago. I see it every day).
But that tribal thing is shifting: it's not necessarily aligned with ethnicity anymore. You know those diagrams of partly overlapping circles? I think the tribal thing is starting to look more like that.
I can't develop this thought a whole lot further without more Tullamore Dew, but if I have more Tullamore Dew, I won't be able to articulate the thought, so I'll leave it there.
the chimperor is declaring charges of voter fraud in the ukraine? sure he wasn't talking about urkrainians in ohio?
the chimperor is declaring charges of voter fraud in the ukraine? sure he wasn't talking about urkrainians in ohio?
For myself, I see the division as one between immanence and transcendence. Is God in each of us, acting when we reach out to each other?
Ironically, this one is found in a final parable in the Gospel of Matthew ("Lord, when did we see you?," is, I think the most plaintive question imaginable, given the setting of the parable.) And this one:
Or is God a distant figure, author of obscure codes which we misinterpret at our peril? is the construct of people with no real knowledge of Judaism, the Hebrew Scriptures, or, for that matter, that the God of Abraham is also the God of Jesus (and, to Christians, is Jesus).
Clearly, I lean toward the former.
Amen.
For myself, I see the division as one between immanence and transcendence. Is God in each of us, acting when we reach out to each other?
Ironically, this one is found in a final parable in the Gospel of Matthew ("Lord, when did we see you?," is, I think the most plaintive question imaginable, given the setting of the parable.) And this one:
Or is God a distant figure, author of obscure codes which we misinterpret at our peril? is the construct of people with no real knowledge of Judaism, the Hebrew Scriptures, or, for that matter, that the God of Abraham is also the God of Jesus (and, to Christians, is Jesus).
Clearly, I lean toward the former.
Amen.
The more we outwardly master matter, the more it does indeed overwhelm us in our hearts.
There is of course the cheap shot to be made here about American pollution and our heart attack rates, but let's just leave that aside for the moment.
Our society has been all about the techne and not about the sophia for quite a long time now. We're so focused on how to do stuff, we ignore why or whether we should. And we then go on to depend on techne to save us again from the results of our previous follies.
We are at a moment of crisis. We must unite the actual and the ideal. We have to be optimists of the will, even as we remain pessimists of the intellect.
We have to reinvent the progressive narrative invoked by FDR in the 1930s for a new age, and remind ourselves and everyone else that the "brotherhood of man" (forgive the sexism of the original formulation) is the actual work at hand, and the ideal goal we should work toward.
That's my take on it.
The more we outwardly master matter, the more it does indeed overwhelm us in our hearts.
There is of course the cheap shot to be made here about American pollution and our heart attack rates, but let's just leave that aside for the moment.
Our society has been all about the techne and not about the sophia for quite a long time now. We're so focused on how to do stuff, we ignore why or whether we should. And we then go on to depend on techne to save us again from the results of our previous follies.
We are at a moment of crisis. We must unite the actual and the ideal. We have to be optimists of the will, even as we remain pessimists of the intellect.
We have to reinvent the progressive narrative invoked by FDR in the 1930s for a new age, and remind ourselves and everyone else that the "brotherhood of man" (forgive the sexism of the original formulation) is the actual work at hand, and the ideal goal we should work toward.
That's my take on it.
As St. Paul wrote, Love "bears all things" and "endures all things". I think that people can't understand the concept. People are so wrapped up in the material world that the spiritial world passes them by.
As St. Paul wrote, Love "bears all things" and "endures all things". I think that people can't understand the concept. People are so wrapped up in the material world that the spiritial world passes them by.
nymary, how old is rosie? i was expecting somone much younger and confused looking.
nymary, how old is rosie? i was expecting somone much younger and confused looking.
i always feel like an ignoramus when people bring up updike. i just find him really tedious.
Olaf glad and big | Email | Homepage | 11.27.04 - 12:11 am | #
in gore vidal's book THE LAST EMPIRE, he has essay explaining why he strongly dislikes updike.
i always feel like an ignoramus when people bring up updike. i just find him really tedious.
Olaf glad and big | Email | Homepage | 11.27.04 - 12:11 am | #
in gore vidal's book THE LAST EMPIRE, he has essay explaining why he strongly dislikes updike.
Congrats and nice post, Robert! Soon Atrios is going to have a larger staff than the NYTimes!
I believe So Long and Thanks for All the Fish describes God better than any other book.
Congrats and nice post, Robert! Soon Atrios is going to have a larger staff than the NYTimes!
I believe So Long and Thanks for All the Fish describes God better than any other book.
I'm still a little raw from thanksgiving with my red state relatives. I got all militant liberal on their asses yesterday and it wasn't pretty. I guess that's what has pissed me off about religion and conservatism in general. You don't have to scratch a christian to hard to find a bigot underneath around there.
Sorry, if I'm rambling a bit, I just got through practicing to be a Rasta.
I'm still a little raw from thanksgiving with my red state relatives. I got all militant liberal on their asses yesterday and it wasn't pretty. I guess that's what has pissed me off about religion and conservatism in general. You don't have to scratch a christian to hard to find a bigot underneath around there.
Sorry, if I'm rambling a bit, I just got through practicing to be a Rasta.
Olaf,
Three months. But she's big, bigger than any baby I ever had, and physically much stronger earlier.
Thers & I are the ones who are confused, alas.
Olaf,
Three months. But she's big, bigger than any baby I ever had, and physically much stronger earlier.
Thers & I are the ones who are confused, alas.
It always seemed to me that there was a huge gap between spirituality and religion. Spirituality is an enigma, something akin to the Taoist idea that if you name it, it is not what you name for the concept is beyond human speech and identity. Not beyond human awareness, but beyond the capacity to name as there are no concrete measurements. I am always skeptical of those who feel the need to proclaim their religion, to wear it as a badge or a brand, as if they need to reassure themselves, to surround themselves with those who wear the same brand. There is an order to the universe, an elegance that we humans see, touch and hear, but it eludes any definition. It can be found in the stars, and in the beauty of this lovely blue jewel we call home. It renews in the profundity of life and sings the songs of our ocean's heartbeat. That is the essence of my spirituality and it is different for everyone of us. We are all unique and genuine and our paths are our own. Taken together, our lifelines weave the tapestry of this world and what lies beyond. We are the ones we have been waiting for.
It always seemed to me that there was a huge gap between spirituality and religion. Spirituality is an enigma, something akin to the Taoist idea that if you name it, it is not what you name for the concept is beyond human speech and identity. Not beyond human awareness, but beyond the capacity to name as there are no concrete measurements. I am always skeptical of those who feel the need to proclaim their religion, to wear it as a badge or a brand, as if they need to reassure themselves, to surround themselves with those who wear the same brand. There is an order to the universe, an elegance that we humans see, touch and hear, but it eludes any definition. It can be found in the stars, and in the beauty of this lovely blue jewel we call home. It renews in the profundity of life and sings the songs of our ocean's heartbeat. That is the essence of my spirituality and it is different for everyone of us. We are all unique and genuine and our paths are our own. Taken together, our lifelines weave the tapestry of this world and what lies beyond. We are the ones we have been waiting for.
But anyway, I don't think my problem is really the wine. I think my problem is that I was brought up on the Nicene creed, with its explanation that God is God because he's made of god-substance. Which is all well and good if you're a 1st Century Neoplatonist with Stoic leanings, but really leaves you kind of unprepared for useful discussion on the nature of God if you live any time after the Reformation.
Homo-ousias, or homoi-ousias? As a wag said, not an iota's worth of difference between then.
Besides which, most of the metaphysics is an attempt to attach Plato's Greek reason, already blended badly with Egyptian spirituality/mysticism, to Hebraic revelationism. The worst possible marriage of East and West imaginable. Which is why, by and large, I leave metaphysics to the literal minded, and get on the with the business of living. I say the Creed every Sunday. But I worry more about how I live my confession.
(Consequently, I worry A LOT.)
But anyway, I don't think my problem is really the wine. I think my problem is that I was brought up on the Nicene creed, with its explanation that God is God because he's made of god-substance. Which is all well and good if you're a 1st Century Neoplatonist with Stoic leanings, but really leaves you kind of unprepared for useful discussion on the nature of God if you live any time after the Reformation.
Homo-ousias, or homoi-ousias? As a wag said, not an iota's worth of difference between then.
Besides which, most of the metaphysics is an attempt to attach Plato's Greek reason, already blended badly with Egyptian spirituality/mysticism, to Hebraic revelationism. The worst possible marriage of East and West imaginable. Which is why, by and large, I leave metaphysics to the literal minded, and get on the with the business of living. I say the Creed every Sunday. But I worry more about how I live my confession.
(Consequently, I worry A LOT.)
Robert Jeffers, I have no idea what your post means, but I support it.
Man, that's some of the heaviest stuff I've seen on a blog.
Robert Jeffers, I have no idea what your post means, but I support it.
Man, that's some of the heaviest stuff I've seen on a blog.
God has given us this amazing power of rational thought and intelligence. I simply cannot believe God would want us to waste this gift on simplistic black and white notions, like "Because God says so in the Bible" or "It's God's will".
To me, the best way to honor God is to continually question and seek higher truths, and to question those you know.
God has given us this amazing power of rational thought and intelligence. I simply cannot believe God would want us to waste this gift on simplistic black and white notions, like "Because God says so in the Bible" or "It's God's will".
To me, the best way to honor God is to continually question and seek higher truths, and to question those you know.
Congrats and nice post, Robert! Soon Atrios is going to have a larger staff than the NYTimes!
And they'll be infinitely more credible, too.
Congrats and nice post, Robert! Soon Atrios is going to have a larger staff than the NYTimes!
And they'll be infinitely more credible, too.
nymary, i don't have kids of my own, so i don't really know, but she really does look strong for three months. and very aware, too. maybe it was just a lucky shot, but she appears to be consciously posing.
nymary, i don't have kids of my own, so i don't really know, but she really does look strong for three months. and very aware, too. maybe it was just a lucky shot, but she appears to be consciously posing.
the chimperor is declaring charges of voter fraud in the ukraine? sure he wasn't talking about urkrainians in ohio?
syntallic
The chimp came out on Wednesday saying the UK shouldn't certify their election until it has the backing of the people. Oh the irony of it all.
the chimperor is declaring charges of voter fraud in the ukraine? sure he wasn't talking about urkrainians in ohio?
syntallic
The chimp came out on Wednesday saying the UK shouldn't certify their election until it has the backing of the people. Oh the irony of it all.
sharon, good luck with the rasta thing. remember that it is very important to practice every day! 
sharon, good luck with the rasta thing. remember that it is very important to practice every day!
KorkSkrew sez:
God is what you make it. Sort of.
KorkSkrew sez:
God is what you make it. Sort of.
Thanks, olaf.
Love the handle, if I've never mentioned that, though I'm not much of one for American poetry.
Thanks, olaf.
Love the handle, if I've never mentioned that, though I'm not much of one for American poetry.
"Where love rules, there is no will to power and where power predominates, there love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other. " C G Jung.
Sorry, more Jung. Kind of sums up the last four years.
"Where love rules, there is no will to power and where power predominates, there love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other. " C G Jung.
Sorry, more Jung. Kind of sums up the last four years.
Hello Robert, good post.
However, you are asking the wrong audience about the concept of God, for believe it or not, most of us here are Deist. Whether we accept it or not.
"God is in his heaven, and all is right with the world."
It is the profundity of the subject that lead me to Santayana. Santayana was an atheist, but he firmly believed in and championed religion! Religion is quite real. It's impact is all around us.
God is simply the "vehicle" for religion.
If you seek a true "Index case" religion as in "type #1," read the entire Reg Veda. It is by far the oldest in the world, by quite a margin!
However, if you seek a more familiar territory, abide by the Ten Commandments, and read the Sermon on the Mount.
then compare and contrast these with what you might find at:
Jack Chick Video Tract
Bob Jones letter
Religion can be benevolent, or cruel. Right now we are in the cruel phase.
And God? I think we are shouting too loudly to hear God, and killing too many as well.
Hello Robert, good post.
However, you are asking the wrong audience about the concept of God, for believe it or not, most of us here are Deist. Whether we accept it or not.
"God is in his heaven, and all is right with the world."
It is the profundity of the subject that lead me to Santayana. Santayana was an atheist, but he firmly believed in and championed religion! Religion is quite real. It's impact is all around us.
God is simply the "vehicle" for religion.
If you seek a true "Index case" religion as in "type #1," read the entire Reg Veda. It is by far the oldest in the world, by quite a margin!
However, if you seek a more familiar territory, abide by the Ten Commandments, and read the Sermon on the Mount.
then compare and contrast these with what you might find at:
Jack Chick Video Tract
Bob Jones letter
Religion can be benevolent, or cruel. Right now we are in the cruel phase.
And God? I think we are shouting too loudly to hear God, and killing too many as well.
I learned, I learned when one might be inclined
To think, too late, you cannot recover your losses
I learned something of the nature of God's mind,
Not the abstract Creator but He who caresses
The daily and nightly earth; He who refuses
To take failure for an answer till again and again is worn.
Love is waiting for you, waiting for the violence that she chooses
From the tepidity of the common round beyond exhaustion or scorn.
What was once is still and there is no need for remorese;
There are no recriminations in Heaven.
O the sensual throb of the explosive body, the tumultuous thighs!
Adown a summer lane comes Miss Universe She whom no lecher's art can rob
Though she is not the virgin who was wise.
--Patrick Kavanagh
I learned, I learned when one might be inclined
To think, too late, you cannot recover your losses
I learned something of the nature of God's mind,
Not the abstract Creator but He who caresses
The daily and nightly earth; He who refuses
To take failure for an answer till again and again is worn.
Love is waiting for you, waiting for the violence that she chooses
From the tepidity of the common round beyond exhaustion or scorn.
What was once is still and there is no need for remorese;
There are no recriminations in Heaven.
O the sensual throb of the explosive body, the tumultuous thighs!
Adown a summer lane comes Miss Universe She whom no lecher's art can rob
Though she is not the virgin who was wise.
--Patrick Kavanagh
Mr Jeffers!
How much I wish to say hello and welcome to the front page, elevated from down here in this white rectilinear unidimension all the way to the front line, and a stunning debut I might say ...
All the way home I was formulating a grand design for a definition of what left or progressive politics needs to be and what remnants of the Democratic Carcass might still be utilized and enrolled / included in the way forward, but kind Mr. Jeffers has thrown a literary spanner into my grand view, and so you are all spared...
Instead , I'll contemplate his post and befuddle an instinctive response, and intellectual arena and an emotional value tree and bask in some soft theorem, and hope that my mind will permit the Vast. I welcome this new element into our blogopolos, a spiritual musing ( in the proper tradition, complete with source note) that relates in many fine filaments of connection directly to our current wasteland , and that I am certain will become more pertinent as the circumstances evolve.
Thanks again for the germ of thought, I have always enjoyed reading you inside , and look forward to more on the Mainpage...
and hi all !
Mr Jeffers!
How much I wish to say hello and welcome to the front page, elevated from down here in this white rectilinear unidimension all the way to the front line, and a stunning debut I might say ...
All the way home I was formulating a grand design for a definition of what left or progressive politics needs to be and what remnants of the Democratic Carcass might still be utilized and enrolled / included in the way forward, but kind Mr. Jeffers has thrown a literary spanner into my grand view, and so you are all spared...
Instead , I'll contemplate his post and befuddle an instinctive response, and intellectual arena and an emotional value tree and bask in some soft theorem, and hope that my mind will permit the Vast. I welcome this new element into our blogopolos, a spiritual musing ( in the proper tradition, complete with source note) that relates in many fine filaments of connection directly to our current wasteland , and that I am certain will become more pertinent as the circumstances evolve.
Thanks again for the germ of thought, I have always enjoyed reading you inside , and look forward to more on the Mainpage...
and hi all !
I say the Creed every Sunday. But I worry more about how I live my confession. (Consequently, I worry A LOT.)
You must be Episcopalian. 
I say the Creed every Sunday. But I worry more about how I live my confession. (Consequently, I worry A LOT.)
You must be Episcopalian.
I'm not sure I fully understand your post, RMJ, but my guess is the general drift of it is "what is the nature of God (should he/she exist) and the nature of spirituality?" I don't have any better answer than anyone else does, but the one that has always appealed most to me was that of just, creator. Not puppeteer or score-keeper, just the hamster on the wheel that set the universe spinning or what have you.
What's most intriguing to me is this notion of man having been created in God's image because, clearly, God is not a corporeal being, which then leads one to wonder in exactly what aspect of God's image was man created? The only two possibilities it would seem would be intellectual and/or spiritual, and I don't personally think the two are divisible.
And this in turn leads to other notions, such as, if indeed man is the intellectual image of his maker, would that maker not fully expect him to question? Which kind of puts the lie to the idea that God would expect blind faith and obedience; were it so, there would be not much use for human intellect; we could simply work on instinct as the other animals do (and I for one believe that the other animals are also endowed with intelligence, even reasoning abilities). Also it does a lot to screw with the chauvanism inherent in most Christian dogma, as clearly women are endowed with equal intellectual ability.
Lots of good questions for a post that I didn't fully get!
I'm not sure I fully understand your post, RMJ, but my guess is the general drift of it is "what is the nature of God (should he/she exist) and the nature of spirituality?" I don't have any better answer than anyone else does, but the one that has always appealed most to me was that of just, creator. Not puppeteer or score-keeper, just the hamster on the wheel that set the universe spinning or what have you.
What's most intriguing to me is this notion of man having been created in God's image because, clearly, God is not a corporeal being, which then leads one to wonder in exactly what aspect of God's image was man created? The only two possibilities it would seem would be intellectual and/or spiritual, and I don't personally think the two are divisible.
And this in turn leads to other notions, such as, if indeed man is the intellectual image of his maker, would that maker not fully expect him to question? Which kind of puts the lie to the idea that God would expect blind faith and obedience; were it so, there would be not much use for human intellect; we could simply work on instinct as the other animals do (and I for one believe that the other animals are also endowed with intelligence, even reasoning abilities). Also it does a lot to screw with the chauvanism inherent in most Christian dogma, as clearly women are endowed with equal intellectual ability.
Lots of good questions for a post that I didn't fully get!
S'nervewracking, isn't it? I got done with my little part of Team PHAT's posting week and thought, "Whew, now that's over I can get some sleep again."
Yeah. Exactly.
S'nervewracking, isn't it? I got done with my little part of Team PHAT's posting week and thought, "Whew, now that's over I can get some sleep again."
Yeah. Exactly.
"The worst possible marriage of East and West imaginable. Which is why, by and large, I leave metaphysics to the literal minded, and get on the with the business of living. I say the Creed every Sunday. But I worry more about how I live my confession.
(Consequently, I worry A LOT.)" -- RMJ
Yes, but you don't worry alone. You'll have to trust me on that in this season.
That was a very graceful way to put it. Thank you.
"The worst possible marriage of East and West imaginable. Which is why, by and large, I leave metaphysics to the literal minded, and get on the with the business of living. I say the Creed every Sunday. But I worry more about how I live my confession.
(Consequently, I worry A LOT.)" -- RMJ
Yes, but you don't worry alone. You'll have to trust me on that in this season.
That was a very graceful way to put it. Thank you.
O the sensual throb of the explosive body, the tumultuous thighs!
KorkSkrew sez:
That sounds erotic. Makes me feel a little funny.
O the sensual throb of the explosive body, the tumultuous thighs!
KorkSkrew sez:
That sounds erotic. Makes me feel a little funny.
I was really thinking of something more philosophical, but, I'm not in charge here....
Also it does a lot to screw with the chauvanism inherent in most Christian dogma, as clearly women are endowed with equal intellectual ability.
"male and female, God created them," sez Genesis 1, the part where humanity is made in the image of God. Too many overlook the significance of that, and rush on to conflate the "creation in 7 days" story with the "Adam and Eve in the Garden with the apple" story (and it's not even an apple).
Such, as Lewis Carroll wisely observed, is human perversity.
I was really thinking of something more philosophical, but, I'm not in charge here....
Also it does a lot to screw with the chauvanism inherent in most Christian dogma, as clearly women are endowed with equal intellectual ability.
"male and female, God created them," sez Genesis 1, the part where humanity is made in the image of God. Too many overlook the significance of that, and rush on to conflate the "creation in 7 days" story with the "Adam and Eve in the Garden with the apple" story (and it's not even an apple).
Such, as Lewis Carroll wisely observed, is human perversity.
O the sensual throb of the explosive body, the tumultuous thighs!
timmy, ever been in men's locker room? how do you feel about gladiator movies?
O the sensual throb of the explosive body, the tumultuous thighs!
timmy, ever been in men's locker room? how do you feel about gladiator movies?
"We kill at every step, not only in wars, riots, and executions. We kill when we close our eyes to poverty, suffering, and shame. In the same way all disrespect for life, all hard-heartedness, all indifference, all contempt is nothing else than killing. With just a little witty skepticism we can kill a good deal of the future in a young person. Life is waiting everywhere, the future is flowering everywhere, but we only see a small part of it and step on much of it with our feet." : - Hermann Hesse, German poet and novelist.
"We kill at every step, not only in wars, riots, and executions. We kill when we close our eyes to poverty, suffering, and shame. In the same way all disrespect for life, all hard-heartedness, all indifference, all contempt is nothing else than killing. With just a little witty skepticism we can kill a good deal of the future in a young person. Life is waiting everywhere, the future is flowering everywhere, but we only see a small part of it and step on much of it with our feet." : - Hermann Hesse, German poet and novelist.
And NYMary, Rosie is gorgeous. Almost as gorgeous as my two.
Friday babyblogging: take that you catowners.
And NYMary, Rosie is gorgeous. Almost as gorgeous as my two.
Friday babyblogging: take that you catowners.
What's most intriguing to me is this notion of man having been created in God's image because, clearly, God is not a corporeal being, which then leads one to wonder in exactly what aspect of God's image was man created? The only two possibilities it would seem would be intellectual and/or spiritual, and I don't personally think the two are divisible.
KorkSkrew sez:
I don't believe Man is made in God's image. Man is part of the great fabric of the universe, and at a DNA level, we are only a small percentage different from other creatures.
I believe we exist in Gods mind, the universe is an idea in Gods dreams. Nothing more, nothing less.
What's most intriguing to me is this notion of man having been created in God's image because, clearly, God is not a corporeal being, which then leads one to wonder in exactly what aspect of God's image was man created? The only two possibilities it would seem would be intellectual and/or spiritual, and I don't personally think the two are divisible.
KorkSkrew sez:
I don't believe Man is made in God's image. Man is part of the great fabric of the universe, and at a DNA level, we are only a small percentage different from other creatures.
I believe we exist in Gods mind, the universe is an idea in Gods dreams. Nothing more, nothing less.
Syntallic - this stuff is making my mind spin, so I checked out your blog. Great rants. I know what you mean about the NFL, I can't listen to Van Morrison anymore ever since I heard that he was one of dubya's faves.
Syntallic - this stuff is making my mind spin, so I checked out your blog. Great rants. I know what you mean about the NFL, I can't listen to Van Morrison anymore ever since I heard that he was one of dubya's faves.
The chimp came out on Wednesday saying the UK shouldn't certify their election until it has the backing of the people. Oh the irony of it all.
KorkSkrew sez:
Elvis Chimply sings the Jailhouse Rocks.
The chimp came out on Wednesday saying the UK shouldn't certify their election until it has the backing of the people. Oh the irony of it all.
KorkSkrew sez:
Elvis Chimply sings the Jailhouse Rocks.
KorkScrew & syntallic,
Any divine creator I'd have any time for would have to have invented sex. I've read theologians who claim that orgasm is proof of the divine. Thus the "Oh, God, Oh, God" aspect of the whole thing, I guess.
Sorry RMJ, for the lowbrow post on my part. I promise to behave, but I do love that poem.
KorkScrew & syntallic,
Any divine creator I'd have any time for would have to have invented sex. I've read theologians who claim that orgasm is proof of the divine. Thus the "Oh, God, Oh, God" aspect of the whole thing, I guess.
Sorry RMJ, for the lowbrow post on my part. I promise to behave, but I do love that poem.
I can't listen to Van Morrison anymore ever since I heard that he was one of dubya's faves.
marion
KorkSkrew sez:
I know what you mean, but you can't blame Van for the actions of some of his fans.
Besides, I think Emporer is listening to Toby Chimp these days.
I can't listen to Van Morrison anymore ever since I heard that he was one of dubya's faves.
marion
KorkSkrew sez:
I know what you mean, but you can't blame Van for the actions of some of his fans.
Besides, I think Emporer is listening to Toby Chimp these days.
Thanks, Father Ted! Good luck getting the stickers off!
Oh, and sorry I misspelled yer name KorkSkrew.
Thanks, Father Ted! Good luck getting the stickers off!
Oh, and sorry I misspelled yer name KorkSkrew.
Along related lines, NYMary, I think my favorite Nietszche quote of all his writings is:
I would believe only in a god who could dance. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
Along related lines, NYMary, I think my favorite Nietszche quote of all his writings is:
I would believe only in a god who could dance. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
danke, marion ... working in the hate and disgust ... kinda cathartic for me in this age of extended boboism
danke, marion ... working in the hate and disgust ... kinda cathartic for me in this age of extended boboism
Any divine creator I'd have any time for would have to have invented sex. I've read theologians who claim that orgasm is proof of the divine. Thus the "Oh, God, Oh, God" aspect of the whole thing, I guess.
KorkSkrew sez:
I do not disagree. But the line kind of makes you go "that feely kind of good thinking about it!"
Any divine creator I'd have any time for would have to have invented sex. I've read theologians who claim that orgasm is proof of the divine. Thus the "Oh, God, Oh, God" aspect of the whole thing, I guess.
KorkSkrew sez:
I do not disagree. But the line kind of makes you go "that feely kind of good thinking about it!"
Sorry RMJ, for the lowbrow post on my part. I promise to behave, but I do love that poem.
NYMary
no worries on the lowbrow posts -- i may be a degenerate freak, but not to the point of actually thinking this is anything but good old rebel yell type stuff
Sorry RMJ, for the lowbrow post on my part. I promise to behave, but I do love that poem.
NYMary
no worries on the lowbrow posts -- i may be a degenerate freak, but not to the point of actually thinking this is anything but good old rebel yell type stuff
WHAT? Bush is a Van Morrison Fan? This kills my creed that anyone who likes Van Morrison is Ok with me. I will no doubt have to amend the creed to exclude war mongering Presidents immediatley. Where's my CD of Tupelo Honey?
WHAT? Bush is a Van Morrison Fan? This kills my creed that anyone who likes Van Morrison is Ok with me. I will no doubt have to amend the creed to exclude war mongering Presidents immediatley. Where's my CD of Tupelo Honey?
Dawna, brilliant Hesse quote, thanks for posting.
Dawna, brilliant Hesse quote, thanks for posting.
WHAT? Bush is a Van Morrison Fan?
KorkSkrew sez:
Yes, but I'd bet that Van isn't a Bush fan.
WHAT? Bush is a Van Morrison Fan?
KorkSkrew sez:
Yes, but I'd bet that Van isn't a Bush fan.
WHAT? Bush is a Van Morrison Fan?
can't you just imagine Bobo serenading Pickles all wigged out on Jim Beam, banging into shit and moving around like captain kangaroo's dancing bear on crank?
"c'mere, pickles .. give daddy some lovin'!"
kinda ruins the tune now, don't it? I can't think of cottage cheese or ketchup the same way any more either
WHAT? Bush is a Van Morrison Fan?
can't you just imagine Bobo serenading Pickles all wigged out on Jim Beam, banging into shit and moving around like captain kangaroo's dancing bear on crank?
"c'mere, pickles .. give daddy some lovin'!"
kinda ruins the tune now, don't it? I can't think of cottage cheese or ketchup the same way any more either
A number of my good friends, both Democrats and (strangely enough) Republican, are athiests.
Even here in Texas.
A number of my good friends, both Democrats and (strangely enough) Republican, are athiests.
Even here in Texas.
can't you just imagine Bobo serenading Pickles all wigged out on Jim Beam,
KorkSkrew sez:
It ruins pickles and Jim Beam too. That combo is enough to make you puke.
can't you just imagine Bobo serenading Pickles all wigged out on Jim Beam,
KorkSkrew sez:
It ruins pickles and Jim Beam too. That combo is enough to make you puke.
Sorry, wrong thread.
Sorry, wrong thread.
Even here in Texas.
David (Austin TX)
KorkSkrew sez:
Hello David from Austin, the Not David P.
Even here in Texas.
David (Austin TX)
KorkSkrew sez:
Hello David from Austin, the Not David P.
see what i mean, korkdude
everything that pathetic little mental midget touches turns to shit .. like the character from "kingpin" and they use his name as a definition for everything considered a fuckup or a mistake
in kingpin i think they called it a "munson"
see what i mean, korkdude
everything that pathetic little mental midget touches turns to shit .. like the character from "kingpin" and they use his name as a definition for everything considered a fuckup or a mistake
in kingpin i think they called it a "munson"
"i can't listen to van morrison any more after hearing that he is one of gwb's faves."
did he say that? i think i will assume he is lying again. shouldn't be too much of a stretch.
moondance-- bring it on!
"i can't listen to van morrison any more after hearing that he is one of gwb's faves."
did he say that? i think i will assume he is lying again. shouldn't be too much of a stretch.
moondance-- bring it on!
"Where love rules, there is no will to power and where power predominates, there love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other. " C G Jung.
Sorry, more Jung. Kind of sums up the last four years."
Unrepentant Fenian
no apologies needed UF, big Jung fan here, so many thanks for the reminder.
"Where love rules, there is no will to power and where power predominates, there love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other. " C G Jung.
Sorry, more Jung. Kind of sums up the last four years."
Unrepentant Fenian
no apologies needed UF, big Jung fan here, so many thanks for the reminder.
syntallic,
I took Bush for a Perry Como type of guy. I'll bet Van isn't a Fan of the Chimp as well.
syntallic,
I took Bush for a Perry Como type of guy. I'll bet Van isn't a Fan of the Chimp as well.
any divine being that i could respect wouldn't give a shit whether humans worship him or not.
any divine being that i could respect wouldn't give a shit whether humans worship him or not.
Great post. Here's my two cents.
I think a big part of being human consists of being (perhaps) the only creature that stands with one foot in the ideal, and one in the actual. It is our tragedy and our joy. How can these two be reconciled that seem so unreconcilable?
We use reason to order the actual, but often do become overwhelmed by the incredible (and increasing) complexity of the fruits of our reasoning power. We stir up the pot, but we're always disappointed with how what we build measures up to the ideal that haunts our deeper conscousness. We yearn for it one way or another.
The mystics of all disciplines teach us that to (understand? come to terms with?) the ideal we must leave reason aside for the moment and use another part of our consciousness. A formidable task.
I agree that most people posting here (like, I believe, the founders of our nation) believe in applying reason to the problems of self government. But the complexity of the problem brings to mind the nailing of the proverbial jello to the wall.
Garry Wills' terrific book "Lincoln at Gettysburg" got me thinking about how our Declaration of Independence points us toward the ideal in political life. We can never reach the ideal, but this carrot on the stick moves us in the right direction; applying reason to the problems of the actual in a way that reflects the spirit, where the ideal resides. the spirit is ineffable, but it can be reflected in the actual.
This is something close to what the liberalism means to me, and seems to be somewhere in the hearts of the folks posting here (ya lovable knuckleheads).
Great post. Here's my two cents.
I think a big part of being human consists of being (perhaps) the only creature that stands with one foot in the ideal, and one in the actual. It is our tragedy and our joy. How can these two be reconciled that seem so unreconcilable?
We use reason to order the actual, but often do become overwhelmed by the incredible (and increasing) complexity of the fruits of our reasoning power. We stir up the pot, but we're always disappointed with how what we build measures up to the ideal that haunts our deeper conscousness. We yearn for it one way or another.
The mystics of all disciplines teach us that to (understand? come to terms with?) the ideal we must leave reason aside for the moment and use another part of our consciousness. A formidable task.
I agree that most people posting here (like, I believe, the founders of our nation) believe in applying reason to the problems of self government. But the complexity of the problem brings to mind the nailing of the proverbial jello to the wall.
Garry Wills' terrific book "Lincoln at Gettysburg" got me thinking about how our Declaration of Independence points us toward the ideal in political life. We can never reach the ideal, but this carrot on the stick moves us in the right direction; applying reason to the problems of the actual in a way that reflects the spirit, where the ideal resides. the spirit is ineffable, but it can be reflected in the actual.
This is something close to what the liberalism means to me, and seems to be somewhere in the hearts of the folks posting here (ya lovable knuckleheads).
everything that pathetic little mental midget touches turns to shit .. like the character from "kingpin" and they use his name as a definition for everything considered a fuckup or a mistake
KorkSkrew sez:
Have you seen that ad of George with lipstick? Someone over on DKos likened it to the Clown for Steven Kings It. Pennywise is the clowns name.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/20...11/26/23727/
333
everything that pathetic little mental midget touches turns to shit .. like the character from "kingpin" and they use his name as a definition for everything considered a fuckup or a mistake
KorkSkrew sez:
Have you seen that ad of George with lipstick? Someone over on DKos likened it to the Clown for Steven Kings It. Pennywise is the clowns name.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/20...11/26/23727/
333
OT -
Dean's website www.democracyforamerica.com, has been hacked. This is just recent, I believe.
Anyone know anyone affiliated with that website?
The main page has been replaced with a swastika, and obscenities.
The other pages of the site are not available, coming up with "page not found."
If you know anyone over there, or have their phone number, you might want to inform them
OT -
Dean's website www.democracyforamerica.com, has been hacked. This is just recent, I believe.
Anyone know anyone affiliated with that website?
The main page has been replaced with a swastika, and obscenities.
The other pages of the site are not available, coming up with "page not found."
If you know anyone over there, or have their phone number, you might want to inform them
congrats on the promotion, RMJ.
i always thought you were one of the most provacative and well thought out of those who dwell here in the commential realm.
gonna have to ruminate a bit on this one. initial thoughts:
something has to be done about the massive sucking wound that is american consumer culture [actual]. i do not fret all that much regarding the loss of God. however, i think the loss of ritual and the transcendental experience is deeply disturbing.
now some would have it that in order to plug humanity back into "the big socket," we must shun technology and revert to a simpler time. revert to our old god(s). not gonna happen. we must find ways to weave threads of mystical wonder into the nexus of wires and towers which surround us.
bottom line, we need to tell the fundamentalists (of all flavors)to go fuck themselves cause were gonna dance whenever and with whoever we want and look like idiots doing it [ideal].
congrats on the promotion, RMJ.
i always thought you were one of the most provacative and well thought out of those who dwell here in the commential realm.
gonna have to ruminate a bit on this one. initial thoughts:
something has to be done about the massive sucking wound that is american consumer culture [actual]. i do not fret all that much regarding the loss of God. however, i think the loss of ritual and the transcendental experience is deeply disturbing.
now some would have it that in order to plug humanity back into "the big socket," we must shun technology and revert to a simpler time. revert to our old god(s). not gonna happen. we must find ways to weave threads of mystical wonder into the nexus of wires and towers which surround us.
bottom line, we need to tell the fundamentalists (of all flavors)to go fuck themselves cause were gonna dance whenever and with whoever we want and look like idiots doing it [ideal].
I took Bush for a Perry Como type of guy. I'll bet Van isn't a Fan of the Chimp as well.
Unrepentant Fenian
i really believed the chimperor listened to Montevanni, Pete Fountain and Charlie Rich records like Tricky Dick did .. a real Lawrence Welk kinda fella listening to Anacani sing "eres tu!" for his remedial spanish language classes
I took Bush for a Perry Como type of guy. I'll bet Van isn't a Fan of the Chimp as well.
Unrepentant Fenian
i really believed the chimperor listened to Montevanni, Pete Fountain and Charlie Rich records like Tricky Dick did .. a real Lawrence Welk kinda fella listening to Anacani sing "eres tu!" for his remedial spanish language classes
From the heartland, from Mark Twain's "The War Prayer" ---
"You have heard your servant's prayer-the uttered part of it. I am commissioned by God to put into words the other part of it-that part which the pastor, and also you in your hearts, fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!'
That is sufficient. The whole of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory-must follow it, cannot help but follow it.
Upon the listening spirit of God the Father fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!
"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle-be Thou near them! With them, in spirit, we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it-for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen."
Amen, Mr. Clemons, simplistic, maybe, but true, nonetheless.
From the heartland, from Mark Twain's "The War Prayer" ---
"You have heard your servant's prayer-the uttered part of it. I am commissioned by God to put into words the other part of it-that part which the pastor, and also you in your hearts, fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!'
That is sufficient. The whole of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory-must follow it, cannot help but follow it.
Upon the listening spirit of God the Father fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!
"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle-be Thou near them! With them, in spirit, we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it-for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen."
Amen, Mr. Clemons, simplistic, maybe, but true, nonetheless.
KSkrew:
saw that pic and it almost gave me melanie griffith nightmares == guess that's what happens with too many collagen injections
KSkrew:
saw that pic and it almost gave me melanie griffith nightmares == guess that's what happens with too many collagen injections
in exactly what aspect of God's image was man created? The only two possibilities it would seem would be intellectual and/or spiritual, and I don't personally think the two are divisible.
Jennifer: I think Genesis suggests the same thing in the creation story. The first thing that God does after creating human beings is have them share in creating the world by naming all the animals. So humans are portrayed as the only creatures that are not just instinctive, but have the capacity to reach beyond their physical existence and imagine and create new things.
I would believe only in a god who could dance. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
rorshach: reminds me of how Asad AbuKhalil explained his atheism to the SF Chronicle - "Nietzsche wanted a God who dances. I just want a God who goes away"
and NYMary - somehow it's not so bad scraping off the stickers when it's your own baby that put them there. Now if a neighbor's kid were to do that.....
Goodnight all.
in exactly what aspect of God's image was man created? The only two possibilities it would seem would be intellectual and/or spiritual, and I don't personally think the two are divisible.
Jennifer: I think Genesis suggests the same thing in the creation story. The first thing that God does after creating human beings is have them share in creating the world by naming all the animals. So humans are portrayed as the only creatures that are not just instinctive, but have the capacity to reach beyond their physical existence and imagine and create new things.
I would believe only in a god who could dance. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
rorshach: reminds me of how Asad AbuKhalil explained his atheism to the SF Chronicle - "Nietzsche wanted a God who dances. I just want a God who goes away"
and NYMary - somehow it's not so bad scraping off the stickers when it's your own baby that put them there. Now if a neighbor's kid were to do that.....
Goodnight all.
I don't know from the difference between spirituality and religion, but I do know the difference between religion and philosophy. Philosophy asks questions it knows it'll probably never get the answer to; religion gives answers and doesn't really care about the question.
As for the nature of God, the minute I realized that the very concept of some being that could create all of reality from nothing would logically be beyond the scope of a mortal mind - particularly my rather low-grade version - and therefore, it's a bit foolish to worry to spend as much time on the subject as I do.
As someone fascinated with science, particularly quantum physics, I'm satisfied with the "how" of things work. The why, well...they just do. I find the thought that the grand majesty of creation was made only to benefit a rather dingy species of critter a bit unsettling, to be frank. Almost as unsettling as the idea of an all-powerful creator force who nevertheless has apparently no control whatsoever over its creation.
Thus, my response to the fundies: "So God needs you to keep prayer in school?" A Prime Mover may have made Man, but in his arrogance, Man definately made God. And isn't it interesting God perfectly fits the roll we need a god to fit.
I don't know from the difference between spirituality and religion, but I do know the difference between religion and philosophy. Philosophy asks questions it knows it'll probably never get the answer to; religion gives answers and doesn't really care about the question.
As for the nature of God, the minute I realized that the very concept of some being that could create all of reality from nothing would logically be beyond the scope of a mortal mind - particularly my rather low-grade version - and therefore, it's a bit foolish to worry to spend as much time on the subject as I do.
As someone fascinated with science, particularly quantum physics, I'm satisfied with the "how" of things work. The why, well...they just do. I find the thought that the grand majesty of creation was made only to benefit a rather dingy species of critter a bit unsettling, to be frank. Almost as unsettling as the idea of an all-powerful creator force who nevertheless has apparently no control whatsoever over its creation.
Thus, my response to the fundies: "So God needs you to keep prayer in school?" A Prime Mover may have made Man, but in his arrogance, Man definately made God. And isn't it interesting God perfectly fits the roll we need a god to fit.
Garry Wills' terrific book "Lincoln at Gettysburg" got me thinking about how our Declaration of Independence points us toward the ideal in political life. We can never reach the ideal, but this carrot on the stick moves us in the right direction; applying reason to the problems of the actual in a way that reflects the spirit, where the ideal resides. the spirit is ineffable, but it can be reflected in the actual.
KorkSkrew sez:
The ideal is what we subscribe to, or as Bill Clinton put it "a more perfect union." I will sometimes read the Declaration, and it gives me chills, makes me choke up. Some of the lines are perfect. Same with Lincoln's Gettysburg address. What can be more perfect than this:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, all Men are created equal.
Garry Wills' terrific book "Lincoln at Gettysburg" got me thinking about how our Declaration of Independence points us toward the ideal in political life. We can never reach the ideal, but this carrot on the stick moves us in the right direction; applying reason to the problems of the actual in a way that reflects the spirit, where the ideal resides. the spirit is ineffable, but it can be reflected in the actual.
KorkSkrew sez:
The ideal is what we subscribe to, or as Bill Clinton put it "a more perfect union." I will sometimes read the Declaration, and it gives me chills, makes me choke up. Some of the lines are perfect. Same with Lincoln's Gettysburg address. What can be more perfect than this:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, all Men are created equal.
Kate--That site works fine for me...
Kate--That site works fine for me...
RMJ ---your post is very interesting and thought provoking...
I believe that the American people are being overwhelmed by their own inner fantasy of mastery and dominance that no longer exists. That this reaction was illicited after so little suffering is very scary. How will they react when (for certain) times get REALLY hard. If they were so rapidly willing to give over to authoritarian ways of leadership for so little, just think of the degree of control that they will seek in bad times? We are also setting a new comfort level for absolutist leadership...will anyone ever want someone who is a consensus seeker and negotiator after this faux cowboy bullshit? Will the fake become the new desired mode of leadership.
All of this is damned scary. I wish that I could be more positive but I just see more and more rough, no - horrible times ahead for the US - and none of it of course, will be our fault...
RMJ ---your post is very interesting and thought provoking...
I believe that the American people are being overwhelmed by their own inner fantasy of mastery and dominance that no longer exists. That this reaction was illicited after so little suffering is very scary. How will they react when (for certain) times get REALLY hard. If they were so rapidly willing to give over to authoritarian ways of leadership for so little, just think of the degree of control that they will seek in bad times? We are also setting a new comfort level for absolutist leadership...will anyone ever want someone who is a consensus seeker and negotiator after this faux cowboy bullshit? Will the fake become the new desired mode of leadership.
All of this is damned scary. I wish that I could be more positive but I just see more and more rough, no - horrible times ahead for the US - and none of it of course, will be our fault...
i really believed the chimperor listened to Montevanni, Pete Fountain and Charlie Rich records like Tricky Dick did .. a real Lawrence Welk kinda fella listening to Anacani sing "eres tu!" for his remedial spanish language classes
KorkSkrew sez:
Elvis Chimply probably mistook Van Morrison for John Ashcroft's Let the Eagle Soar!
i really believed the chimperor listened to Montevanni, Pete Fountain and Charlie Rich records like Tricky Dick did .. a real Lawrence Welk kinda fella listening to Anacani sing "eres tu!" for his remedial spanish language classes
KorkSkrew sez:
Elvis Chimply probably mistook Van Morrison for John Ashcroft's Let the Eagle Soar!
Father Ted, those are two of the cutest damn kids I have ever seen. Between your little 'uns & Rosie, you're making me look forward to being a mom one day...
Father Ted, those are two of the cutest damn kids I have ever seen. Between your little 'uns & Rosie, you're making me look forward to being a mom one day...
Dawna, brilliant Hesse quote, thanks for posting.
verushka
Dawna, brilliant Hesse quote, thanks for posting.
verushka
...notice also that Bush has not sent any conciliatory messages to those of us who voted against him....why? He needs us again to be the focus of tringulation that allows him to pit the "bad" us against the "good" them. Look for it. He will pour gas on this fire again and again...
...notice also that Bush has not sent any conciliatory messages to those of us who voted against him....why? He needs us again to be the focus of tringulation that allows him to pit the "bad" us against the "good" them. Look for it. He will pour gas on this fire again and again...
KorkSkrew,
Lincoln got it right.
" I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."
KorkSkrew,
Lincoln got it right.
" I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."
seriously, i have been thinking about this a lot lately. assume, for the sake of argument, that there is a god. in fact, let's assume that it is the same god that is in the bible. why would he want humans to worship him? why would he care one way or the other? i can see how he might get a kick out of it if we did, but the god in the bible is really adamant about it.
seriously, i have been thinking about this a lot lately. assume, for the sake of argument, that there is a god. in fact, let's assume that it is the same god that is in the bible. why would he want humans to worship him? why would he care one way or the other? i can see how he might get a kick out of it if we did, but the god in the bible is really adamant about it.
Thank you Charlotte Smith. I'm taking lots of photos of them now, while they're small and adorable, to help me through the teenage years when they're screaming at me how much they just hate me.
And now I really am retiring to bed. G'night...
Thank you Charlotte Smith. I'm taking lots of photos of them now, while they're small and adorable, to help me through the teenage years when they're screaming at me how much they just hate me.
And now I really am retiring to bed. G'night...
excellent choices of speeches, but for me it always came down to RFK, a poet-warrior of the highest order:
Each nation has different obstacles and different goals, shaped by the vagaries of history and of experience. Yet as I talk to young people around the world I am impressed not by the diversity but by the closeness of their goals, their desires, and their concerns and their hope for the future. There is discrimination in New York, the racial inequality of apartheid in South Africa, and serfdom in the mountains of Peru. People starve to death in the streets of India; a former Prime Minister is summarily executed in the Congo; intellectuals go to jail in Russia; and thousands are slaughtered in Indonesia; wealth is lavished on armaments everywhere in the world. These are different evils; but they are the common works of man. They reflect the imperfections of human justice, the inadequacy of human compassion, the defectiveness of our sensibility toward the sufferings of our fellows; they mark the limit of our ability to use knowledge for the well-being of our fellow human beings throughout the world. And therefore they call upon common qualities of conscience and indignation, a shared determination to wipe away the unnecessary sufferings of our fellow human beings at home and around the world.
It is these qualities which make of our youth today the only true international community. More than this I think that we could agree on what kind of a world we want to build. It would be a world of independent nations, moving toward international community, each of which protected and respected the basic human freedoms. It would be a world which demanded of each government that it accept its responsibility to insure social justice. It would be a world of constantly accelerating economic progress -- not material welfare as an end in of itself, but as a means to liberate the capacity of every human being to pursue his talents and to pursue his hopes. It would, in short, be a world that we would all be proud to have built.
And, [JFK] added, "With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth and lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our own."
huge and leaves a shadow ...
excellent choices of speeches, but for me it always came down to RFK, a poet-warrior of the highest order:
Each nation has different obstacles and different goals, shaped by the vagaries of history and of experience. Yet as I talk to young people around the world I am impressed not by the diversity but by the closeness of their goals, their desires, and their concerns and their hope for the future. There is discrimination in New York, the racial inequality of apartheid in South Africa, and serfdom in the mountains of Peru. People starve to death in the streets of India; a former Prime Minister is summarily executed in the Congo; intellectuals go to jail in Russia; and thousands are slaughtered in Indonesia; wealth is lavished on armaments everywhere in the world. These are different evils; but they are the common works of man. They reflect the imperfections of human justice, the inadequacy of human compassion, the defectiveness of our sensibility toward the sufferings of our fellows; they mark the limit of our ability to use knowledge for the well-being of our fellow human beings throughout the world. And therefore they call upon common qualities of conscience and indignation, a shared determination to wipe away the unnecessary sufferings of our fellow human beings at home and around the world.
It is these qualities which make of our youth today the only true international community. More than this I think that we could agree on what kind of a world we want to build. It would be a world of independent nations, moving toward international community, each of which protected and respected the basic human freedoms. It would be a world which demanded of each government that it accept its responsibility to insure social justice. It would be a world of constantly accelerating economic progress -- not material welfare as an end in of itself, but as a means to liberate the capacity of every human being to pursue his talents and to pursue his hopes. It would, in short, be a world that we would all be proud to have built.
And, [JFK] added, "With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth and lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our own."
huge and leaves a shadow ...
...notice also that Bush has not sent any conciliatory messages to those of us who voted against him....why? He needs us again to be the focus of tringulation that allows him to pit the "bad" us against the "good" them. Look for it. He will pour gas on this fire again and again...
workingwoman
Sure he did, he said he would be willing to work with those who voted for him. Tells me all I need to know.
...notice also that Bush has not sent any conciliatory messages to those of us who voted against him....why? He needs us again to be the focus of tringulation that allows him to pit the "bad" us against the "good" them. Look for it. He will pour gas on this fire again and again...
workingwoman
Sure he did, he said he would be willing to work with those who voted for him. Tells me all I need to know.
You've heard of the blind leading the blind, and the blind leading the stupid.
We have a new twist on that in the Bush presidency:
The stupid leading the blind.
And we will all pay - dearly - for it.
You've heard of the blind leading the blind, and the blind leading the stupid.
We have a new twist on that in the Bush presidency:
The stupid leading the blind.
And we will all pay - dearly - for it.
"That this reaction was illicited after so little suffering is very scary. How will they react when times get REALLY hard. If they were so rapidly willing to give over to authoritarian ways of leadership for so little...We are also setting a new comfort level for absolutist leadership.."
Well said, and you are so right.
"That this reaction was illicited after so little suffering is very scary. How will they react when times get REALLY hard. If they were so rapidly willing to give over to authoritarian ways of leadership for so little...We are also setting a new comfort level for absolutist leadership.."
Well said, and you are so right.
Backslider sayeth:
I don't know from the difference between spirituality and religion, but I do know the difference between religion and philosophy. Philosophy asks questions it knows it'll probably never get the answer to; religion gives answers and doesn't really care about the question.
Except that, I believe that religion does care about the question, however, it is that the question must coform to an already prescribed answer.
If the question does not fit one of the pre-defined answers, then the questioner is vilified as either a non-believer, or a heretic.
Backslider sayeth:
I don't know from the difference between spirituality and religion, but I do know the difference between religion and philosophy. Philosophy asks questions it knows it'll probably never get the answer to; religion gives answers and doesn't really care about the question.
Except that, I believe that religion does care about the question, however, it is that the question must coform to an already prescribed answer.
If the question does not fit one of the pre-defined answers, then the questioner is vilified as either a non-believer, or a heretic.
I believe that the American people are being overwhelmed by their own inner fantasy of mastery and dominance that no longer exists. That this reaction was illicited after so little suffering is very scary. How will they react when (for certain) times get REALLY hard. If they were so rapidly willing to give over to authoritarian ways of leadership for so little, just think of the degree of control that they will seek in bad times? We are also setting a new comfort level for absolutist leadership...will anyone ever want someone who is a consensus seeker and negotiator after this faux cowboy bullshit? Will the fake become the new desired mode of leadership.
KorkSkrew sez:
WW, I'm more optimistic. This country has been challenged many times in our past, and it's done some horrible things (slaughter of native Americans, Slavery, Eugenics, and so forth), but despite all those terrible actions, the ideals expressed in the soul of the nation eventually come through.
Justice is a slow train, but it will come. I believe. And they cannot take that from me.
I believe that the American people are being overwhelmed by their own inner fantasy of mastery and dominance that no longer exists. That this reaction was illicited after so little suffering is very scary. How will they react when (for certain) times get REALLY hard. If they were so rapidly willing to give over to authoritarian ways of leadership for so little, just think of the degree of control that they will seek in bad times? We are also setting a new comfort level for absolutist leadership...will anyone ever want someone who is a consensus seeker and negotiator after this faux cowboy bullshit? Will the fake become the new desired mode of leadership.
KorkSkrew sez:
WW, I'm more optimistic. This country has been challenged many times in our past, and it's done some horrible things (slaughter of native Americans, Slavery, Eugenics, and so forth), but despite all those terrible actions, the ideals expressed in the soul of the nation eventually come through.
Justice is a slow train, but it will come. I believe. And they cannot take that from me.
Bush will never come out and say anything to the 55 million people who voted against him. He doesn't care about us, he never did and never will. That's why I posted the Lincoln First Inaugural Address quote. If Bush came out and said something like lincoln did to the south there would be 55 million spontanious heart attacks across the US.
Bush will never come out and say anything to the 55 million people who voted against him. He doesn't care about us, he never did and never will. That's why I posted the Lincoln First Inaugural Address quote. If Bush came out and said something like lincoln did to the south there would be 55 million spontanious heart attacks across the US.
My Credo. Do not let the bastards get you down:
we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
Abraham Lincoln
My Credo. Do not let the bastards get you down:
we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
Abraham Lincoln
My Credo. I will never stop believing:
I say to you today, my friends, so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.
I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
I have a dream today.
Martin Luther King
My Credo. I will never stop believing:
I say to you today, my friends, so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.
I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
I have a dream today.
Martin Luther King
Bush's credo:
we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that Unocal, Shell, Exxon, Texaco, shall have a new source of revenue -- and that government of the corporation, by the corporation, for the corporation, shall dominate the earth.
Bush's credo:
we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that Unocal, Shell, Exxon, Texaco, shall have a new source of revenue -- and that government of the corporation, by the corporation, for the corporation, shall dominate the earth.
Of course, I excluded the requisite Bush mangling for purposes of clarity - the above is how it will read after being "sanitized" for the White House website.
have you all read the Larry Kramer speech from earlier this month?
i had been putting it off because i was already so depressed & it is quite lengthy.
but i really think its an essental & gripping read.
Of course, I excluded the requisite Bush mangling for purposes of clarity - the above is how it will read after being "sanitized" for the White House website.
have you all read the Larry Kramer speech from earlier this month?
i had been putting it off because i was already so depressed & it is quite lengthy.
but i really think its an essental & gripping read.
The beautiful rhetorical expression contributed above contrasted with what Dear Leader has to say is like seeing a Vermeer hung on a wall next to one of those pictures of the kids with big eyes...
The beautiful rhetorical expression contributed above contrasted with what Dear Leader has to say is like seeing a Vermeer hung on a wall next to one of those pictures of the kids with big eyes...
Did Lincoln talk about a mandate after his election win in 1864. No. Did lincoln talk about spending some of his political capital. No. This is what he said.
" With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations."
Bush just doesn't care about those of us who didn't vote for him or dont approve of the way he governs. Worst President ever.
Did Lincoln talk about a mandate after his election win in 1864. No. Did lincoln talk about spending some of his political capital. No. This is what he said.
" With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations."
Bush just doesn't care about those of us who didn't vote for him or dont approve of the way he governs. Worst President ever.
Exactly, Fenian. No one who seeks to divide those he is supposed to lead can be accurately called a "leader."
Bush is what he always has been - a punk. When the inevitable occurs (the draft begins, social security disappears, the depression gets under full swing) and those who voted for him begin the teeth-gnashing that will no doubt occur, I'm just going to ask how they like being punk'd by a punk.
Exactly, Fenian. No one who seeks to divide those he is supposed to lead can be accurately called a "leader."
Bush is what he always has been - a punk. When the inevitable occurs (the draft begins, social security disappears, the depression gets under full swing) and those who voted for him begin the teeth-gnashing that will no doubt occur, I'm just going to ask how they like being punk'd by a punk.
I try not to get emotional, but I really hate what Bush has done to this nation.
I try not to get emotional, but I really hate what Bush has done to this nation.
My Credo. This is our country.
We dare not forget today that we are the heirs of that first revolution. Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage--and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this Nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world.
John F. Kennedy
My Credo. This is our country.
We dare not forget today that we are the heirs of that first revolution. Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage--and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this Nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world.
John F. Kennedy
"bush doesn't care about those of us who didn't vote for him. . ."- unrepentant fenian
yeah, that is certainly true, but it doesn't bother me that much simply because i don't really expect much from politicians. what bugs me is that a lot of the people who voted for him voted for him specifically because they don't give a shit about anyone else either.
"bush doesn't care about those of us who didn't vote for him. . ."- unrepentant fenian
yeah, that is certainly true, but it doesn't bother me that much simply because i don't really expect much from politicians. what bugs me is that a lot of the people who voted for him voted for him specifically because they don't give a shit about anyone else either.
Korkscrew -
Hope that you are right. Rememember that in Lincoln's time, things were a bit slower. Now we can communicate inaccuracies so much faster and the media can control and manipulate images so much faster. We have a nation lulled by fantasy and confused about what is real and what is reality tv.
I am not THAT trusting anymore. Before this last election, I would have given over to a belief in the American people and that they would do the right thing. They voted for an idiot savant who is going about moving us ever closer to complete fascism. Sorry - its going to take me a little while to get over this. Unlike the Jews in Germany, I am not going to need them to pull up the box car to know that the gig is up. I am looking several moves ahead and I am not liking what I am seeing...
Korkscrew -
Hope that you are right. Rememember that in Lincoln's time, things were a bit slower. Now we can communicate inaccuracies so much faster and the media can control and manipulate images so much faster. We have a nation lulled by fantasy and confused about what is real and what is reality tv.
I am not THAT trusting anymore. Before this last election, I would have given over to a belief in the American people and that they would do the right thing. They voted for an idiot savant who is going about moving us ever closer to complete fascism. Sorry - its going to take me a little while to get over this. Unlike the Jews in Germany, I am not going to need them to pull up the box car to know that the gig is up. I am looking several moves ahead and I am not liking what I am seeing...
I don't know about all that, but I'd sure like to have whatever you're smoking right now.
I don't know about all that, but I'd sure like to have whatever you're smoking right now.
I try not to get emotional, but I really hate what Bush has done to this nation.
Do not be afraid of getting emotional about your love of country. You are a patriot. We need you, and we need many more like you.
As FDR said, "the only thing we need to fear is fear itself."
We will take this country back. We will restore dignity, grace, diplomacy, and democracy.
I try not to get emotional, but I really hate what Bush has done to this nation.
Do not be afraid of getting emotional about your love of country. You are a patriot. We need you, and we need many more like you.
As FDR said, "the only thing we need to fear is fear itself."
We will take this country back. We will restore dignity, grace, diplomacy, and democracy.
Olaf,
That's the problem. Times like these call for a leader that makes the people realize that we're all in this together. A leader unites and doesn't divide his people. It's not that Bush can't do it's that he doesn't want to which makes him the worst President ever.
Olaf,
That's the problem. Times like these call for a leader that makes the people realize that we're all in this together. A leader unites and doesn't divide his people. It's not that Bush can't do it's that he doesn't want to which makes him the worst President ever.
Bush is what he always has been - a punk.
Or as the bumper sticker on my car says (and I live in Austin and work on the capitol grounds): Bush is a punk ass chump.
Bush is what he always has been - a punk.
Or as the bumper sticker on my car says (and I live in Austin and work on the capitol grounds): Bush is a punk ass chump.
Bush is what he always has been - a punk.
Right on target. A punky monkey.
I blew my top listening to the other side spew about "oh, they're so angry, these liberals."
I think you'd have to be pretty numb not to be angry about having this guy sitting in the same office occupied by Lincoln, and thinking about our national inheritance swirling down the toilet.
Bush is what he always has been - a punk.
Right on target. A punky monkey.
I blew my top listening to the other side spew about "oh, they're so angry, these liberals."
I think you'd have to be pretty numb not to be angry about having this guy sitting in the same office occupied by Lincoln, and thinking about our national inheritance swirling down the toilet.
Hope that you are right. Rememember that in Lincoln's time, things were a bit slower. Now we can communicate inaccuracies so much faster and the media can control and manipulate images so much faster. We have a nation lulled by fantasy and confused about what is real and what is reality tv.
WW, there are more of us who cherish the ideals of democracy than there are those who would lay waste to this nation.
Remember: Don't Tread on Me.
Hope that you are right. Rememember that in Lincoln's time, things were a bit slower. Now we can communicate inaccuracies so much faster and the media can control and manipulate images so much faster. We have a nation lulled by fantasy and confused about what is real and what is reality tv.
WW, there are more of us who cherish the ideals of democracy than there are those who would lay waste to this nation.
Remember: Don't Tread on Me.
syntallic -
"It would be a world which demanded of each government that it accept its responsibility to insure social justice.
It would be a world of constantly accelerating economic progress -- not material welfare as an end in of itself, but as a means to liberate the capacity of every human being to pursue his talents and to pursue his hopes."
How I wish that man had not died so young. New Year's Eve 1968 could have been so different.
I have that speech on an old album with about 20 of RFK's speeches on it. It is the only reason that I still have a turntable.
It's good to listen to it when things seem really impossible. Between November 3rd and November 10th this year, that album got a work out. Finally copied it onto CD for security's sake.
syntallic -
"It would be a world which demanded of each government that it accept its responsibility to insure social justice.
It would be a world of constantly accelerating economic progress -- not material welfare as an end in of itself, but as a means to liberate the capacity of every human being to pursue his talents and to pursue his hopes."
How I wish that man had not died so young. New Year's Eve 1968 could have been so different.
I have that speech on an old album with about 20 of RFK's speeches on it. It is the only reason that I still have a turntable.
It's good to listen to it when things seem really impossible. Between November 3rd and November 10th this year, that album got a work out. Finally copied it onto CD for security's sake.
I don't know about all that, but I'd sure like to have whatever you're smoking right now.
I'm smoking nothing.
I believe in the heritage of this country. I will not back down. I will not relent. I will not let them trample on the blood of those who fought and died to make this country a more perfect union.
I don't know about all that, but I'd sure like to have whatever you're smoking right now.
I'm smoking nothing.
I believe in the heritage of this country. I will not back down. I will not relent. I will not let them trample on the blood of those who fought and died to make this country a more perfect union.
Just curious:
Of the players on the scene now, who do people think has the most potential to live up to the leadership (or at the least, leadership through rhetorical expression) examples of Lincoln, King, Kennedy...
Just curious:
Of the players on the scene now, who do people think has the most potential to live up to the leadership (or at the least, leadership through rhetorical expression) examples of Lincoln, King, Kennedy...
noodge - Obama Barak, though we've yet to see how he performs in office.
noodge - Obama Barak, though we've yet to see how he performs in office.
Kay,
My mom worked for RFK's campaign here in Chicago and I remember her having an album of speeches as well. I burned her a DVD copy of that PBS special on RFK that ran a couple weeks ago and she said that it really cheered her up watching RFK after Kerry lost.
Kay,
My mom worked for RFK's campaign here in Chicago and I remember her having an album of speeches as well. I burned her a DVD copy of that PBS special on RFK that ran a couple weeks ago and she said that it really cheered her up watching RFK after Kerry lost.
"Of the players on the scene now, who do people think has the most potential to live up to the leadership (or at the least, leadership through rhetorical expression) examples of Lincoln, King, Kennedy..."
Everyone
If they choose to.
"Of the players on the scene now, who do people think has the most potential to live up to the leadership (or at the least, leadership through rhetorical expression) examples of Lincoln, King, Kennedy..."
Everyone
If they choose to.
"We have explored, on behalf of all mankind, this paradox: the more matter is outwardly mastered, the more it overwhelms us in our hearts."
I was going to say something witty about Schroedinger's Cat, but...
Spring and Fall: To a Young Child
MARGARET, are you grieving
Over Goldengrove unleaving?
Leaves, like the things of man, you
With your fresh thoughts care for, can you?
Ah! as the heart grows older
It will come to such sights colder
By and by, nor spare a sigh
Though worlds of wanwood leafmeal lie.
And yet you will weep and know why.
Now no matter, child, the name:
Sorrow's springs are the same.
Nor mouth had, no nor mind, expressed
What heart heard of, ghost guessed:
It is the blight man was born for,
It is Margaret you mourn for.
---- Gerald Manley Hopkins
"We have explored, on behalf of all mankind, this paradox: the more matter is outwardly mastered, the more it overwhelms us in our hearts."
I was going to say something witty about Schroedinger's Cat, but...
Spring and Fall: To a Young Child
MARGARET, are you grieving
Over Goldengrove unleaving?
Leaves, like the things of man, you
With your fresh thoughts care for, can you?
Ah! as the heart grows older
It will come to such sights colder
By and by, nor spare a sigh
Though worlds of wanwood leafmeal lie.
And yet you will weep and know why.
Now no matter, child, the name:
Sorrow's springs are the same.
Nor mouth had, no nor mind, expressed
What heart heard of, ghost guessed:
It is the blight man was born for,
It is Margaret you mourn for.
---- Gerald Manley Hopkins
Of the players on the scene now, who do people think has the most potential to live up to the leadership (or at the least, leadership through rhetorical expression) examples of Lincoln, King, Kennedy...
Perhaps someone who is yet to answer the call.
But make no mistake, there will be a leader who will come forth. And it is up to each one of us to be leaders in our own small way. It is our duty to shine the light for those who cannot yet even glimpse what we can see.
Of the players on the scene now, who do people think has the most potential to live up to the leadership (or at the least, leadership through rhetorical expression) examples of Lincoln, King, Kennedy...
Perhaps someone who is yet to answer the call.
But make no mistake, there will be a leader who will come forth. And it is up to each one of us to be leaders in our own small way. It is our duty to shine the light for those who cannot yet even glimpse what we can see.
KorkSkrew,
Lincoln got it right.
" I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature." -- Unrepentant Fenian
Yes, definitely, Lincoln got it right. Great quote. I think that's the one I've been stumbling after all day.
KorkSkrew,
Lincoln got it right.
" I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature." -- Unrepentant Fenian
Yes, definitely, Lincoln got it right. Great quote. I think that's the one I've been stumbling after all day.
Everyone
If they choose to.
EkCenTriK: That's intriquing and inciting.
Jennifer: I thought of Obama, but I can't think of one other person now that Wellstone is dead.
Everyone
If they choose to.
EkCenTriK: That's intriquing and inciting.
Jennifer: I thought of Obama, but I can't think of one other person now that Wellstone is dead.
Everyone
If they choose to.
EkCenTriK
Well said. And we must choose to. It is our country.
Everyone
If they choose to.
EkCenTriK
Well said. And we must choose to. It is our country.
Jennifer,
Obama, without a doubt. I live here in Illinois and I've seen him in person and he is the real deal. Did you see him on Letterman? When was the last time Dave had an incomming freshman Senator on his show? After the interview Dave asked Obama to come back to his show when he runs for President. Very Cool. Durbin will show him the ropes in the Senate then in 2012 lookout for O.
Jennifer,
Obama, without a doubt. I live here in Illinois and I've seen him in person and he is the real deal. Did you see him on Letterman? When was the last time Dave had an incomming freshman Senator on his show? After the interview Dave asked Obama to come back to his show when he runs for President. Very Cool. Durbin will show him the ropes in the Senate then in 2012 lookout for O.
EkCenTriK and KorkSkrew:
Point well made and well taken.
Nobody listens to a noodge, however.
EkCenTriK and KorkSkrew:
Point well made and well taken.
Nobody listens to a noodge, however.
noodge, call me an idiot, but i thought kerry had it. i'm not naive, but kerry got me to set aside my cynicism, which is what inspiring leaders do. i still think he could have delivered if he had "won the election". ( i always put that phrase in quotes these days.)
damn, i'm using a lot of punctuation tonight. usually i just stick with periods and commas.
noodge, call me an idiot, but i thought kerry had it. i'm not naive, but kerry got me to set aside my cynicism, which is what inspiring leaders do. i still think he could have delivered if he had "won the election". ( i always put that phrase in quotes these days.)
damn, i'm using a lot of punctuation tonight. usually i just stick with periods and commas.
Point well made and well taken.
Nobody listens to a noodge, however.
Speak truth to power, and people will listen.
They're starving for it.
Point well made and well taken.
Nobody listens to a noodge, however.
Speak truth to power, and people will listen.
They're starving for it.
Olaf,
I thought Kerry had it too. Does anyone else think that if Kerry should have said, "Listen, I voted with the President in favor of the war but the President lied to me. And he lied to you too. The war in Iraq is a mistake and the troops need to come home now. What's needed is a real war on terror and not a side show shooting gallery."
Every now and then I catch myself thinking. Fuck, we have Bush for another four years.
Olaf,
I thought Kerry had it too. Does anyone else think that if Kerry should have said, "Listen, I voted with the President in favor of the war but the President lied to me. And he lied to you too. The war in Iraq is a mistake and the troops need to come home now. What's needed is a real war on terror and not a side show shooting gallery."
Every now and then I catch myself thinking. Fuck, we have Bush for another four years.
Olaf,
I liked Kerry too. I felt that he had great potential, was a person of action (I loved that story about giving the Heimlich to that congressman from Nevada) and could have been a great leader. His rhetoric was not too inspiring though. I realize that might be the fault of the media environment and the nature of today's campaigning. Perhaps the rhetoric (examples above) from our history that sets your heart beating and brings tears to your eyes and strength to your efforts is what is needed now. (Not to belittle the efforts of the many people who worked their hearts out for Kerry.)
Olaf,
I liked Kerry too. I felt that he had great potential, was a person of action (I loved that story about giving the Heimlich to that congressman from Nevada) and could have been a great leader. His rhetoric was not too inspiring though. I realize that might be the fault of the media environment and the nature of today's campaigning. Perhaps the rhetoric (examples above) from our history that sets your heart beating and brings tears to your eyes and strength to your efforts is what is needed now. (Not to belittle the efforts of the many people who worked their hearts out for Kerry.)
Unrepentent,
Give your mom my best, she's probably a year or two older than me. I was not old enough (quite) to vote in 1968.
I think, though, that she would have been very at home in our house.
To KorkSkrew -
Keep not smoking anyhing, especially tobacco. None of that stuff is good for you. I feel compelled to say that now when the subject comes up now that I'm a mom. It's not really important though.
Did someone tell you that you could not be that leader? I understand what you're saying. I thought, once, that "that guy" would be of my generation. I don't anymore.
I expect now the next time that I feel my soul genuinely moved by a politician it will be a younger man.
Step up, young man or young woman.
The only criticism that I will ever levy against John Kerry is that he didn't move me in 2004 quite the way he did in April 1971. I'm not sure that was his fault.
We want the guy who will not let there be a choice but to listen to him.
It might be you.
Unrepentent,
Give your mom my best, she's probably a year or two older than me. I was not old enough (quite) to vote in 1968.
I think, though, that she would have been very at home in our house.
To KorkSkrew -
Keep not smoking anyhing, especially tobacco. None of that stuff is good for you. I feel compelled to say that now when the subject comes up now that I'm a mom. It's not really important though.
Did someone tell you that you could not be that leader? I understand what you're saying. I thought, once, that "that guy" would be of my generation. I don't anymore.
I expect now the next time that I feel my soul genuinely moved by a politician it will be a younger man.
Step up, young man or young woman.
The only criticism that I will ever levy against John Kerry is that he didn't move me in 2004 quite the way he did in April 1971. I'm not sure that was his fault.
We want the guy who will not let there be a choice but to listen to him.
It might be you.
As john Lennon said, Just gimme some truth.
As john Lennon said, Just gimme some truth.
well, i am underwhelmed by the strange and obliquely dire emails i have received as a consequence of doubting someone's "invisible sky buddy" on this site. it doesn't alter my perception of christianity as "zombie death cult", but rather reinforces the idea that certain folks may be a couple of tacos short of a combination plate. i guess that's why "gawd" invented the delete button.
well, i am underwhelmed by the strange and obliquely dire emails i have received as a consequence of doubting someone's "invisible sky buddy" on this site. it doesn't alter my perception of christianity as "zombie death cult", but rather reinforces the idea that certain folks may be a couple of tacos short of a combination plate. i guess that's why "gawd" invented the delete button.
This is wat currently worries me. There are undercurrents in the country that i think most liberals aren't even aware of.
It's bigger than you even realise.
The International Coalition of Workplace Ministries (ICWM) is a fellowship of workplace believers who want to ignite leaders for workplace transformation by modeling Jesus Christ. We do this by inspiring, connecting and equipping leaders who want to transform the workplace for Christ. The ICWM website (www.icwm.net) is a clearinghouse for information, resources and organizations in the faith and work movement.
Check out the number of companies who have registered.
I'm not opposed to anyone practicing their religion. But I am opposed to forcing someone to practice a prescribed religious viewpoint.
At what point do we lose all ability to worship/or not in private? At what point does the government sanction what is acceptable religious belief?
This is wat currently worries me. There are undercurrents in the country that i think most liberals aren't even aware of.
It's bigger than you even realise.
The International Coalition of Workplace Ministries (ICWM) is a fellowship of workplace believers who want to ignite leaders for workplace transformation by modeling Jesus Christ. We do this by inspiring, connecting and equipping leaders who want to transform the workplace for Christ. The ICWM website (www.icwm.net) is a clearinghouse for information, resources and organizations in the faith and work movement.
Check out the number of companies who have registered.
I'm not opposed to anyone practicing their religion. But I am opposed to forcing someone to practice a prescribed religious viewpoint.
At what point do we lose all ability to worship/or not in private? At what point does the government sanction what is acceptable religious belief?
Is Mr. Wu related to Dr. Wu?
Is Mr. Wu related to Dr. Wu?
Ah a Steely Dan reference, very cool.
Ah a Steely Dan reference, very cool.
I think Kerry has to make a choice, is he a politician or an honest man. He has the opportunity to be bigger than a president, My view is he feels it, but he is so much a part of the machine he has a problem disengaging. It must be frightening. Obama is at risk of having the same problem. Barak could be a leader beyond simple politics, but it is stepping away from the machine, the cloak of structure and familiar things.
The only one I have seen do it to any great degree is Carter. He took his perceived failure as a challenge, changed the process and look at how he is seen by even his past foes. He still lingers in politics, but he never seems to let it get in the way of his beliefs or works.
I think Kerry has to make a choice, is he a politician or an honest man. He has the opportunity to be bigger than a president, My view is he feels it, but he is so much a part of the machine he has a problem disengaging. It must be frightening. Obama is at risk of having the same problem. Barak could be a leader beyond simple politics, but it is stepping away from the machine, the cloak of structure and familiar things.
The only one I have seen do it to any great degree is Carter. He took his perceived failure as a challenge, changed the process and look at how he is seen by even his past foes. He still lingers in politics, but he never seems to let it get in the way of his beliefs or works.
Kate--That site works fine for me...
rorschach | Email | Homepage | 11.27.04 - 1:39 am | #
Thank you for checking it out.
I initiallly went back to the page a few minutes ago, saw the swastika crap again, then ran my cache cleaner program, and when I tried www.democracyforamerica.com one more time, it just now showed "The page cannot be displayed."
That's what I would expect to happen if someone were working on it right now.
I first heard about it over at Kos, and they put out a call of sorts to anyone who knows IT folks at the Dean group, or knows their phone number. Somebody posted about 25 minutes ago that the site was suddenly back up. But at least from here it looks like it went back down for some reason. At least the swastika and "F**k America" and "heil" garbage is gone.
Thank you, rorschach!
Kate--That site works fine for me...
rorschach | Email | Homepage | 11.27.04 - 1:39 am | #
Thank you for checking it out.
I initiallly went back to the page a few minutes ago, saw the swastika crap again, then ran my cache cleaner program, and when I tried www.democracyforamerica.com one more time, it just now showed "The page cannot be displayed."
That's what I would expect to happen if someone were working on it right now.
I first heard about it over at Kos, and they put out a call of sorts to anyone who knows IT folks at the Dean group, or knows their phone number. Somebody posted about 25 minutes ago that the site was suddenly back up. But at least from here it looks like it went back down for some reason. At least the swastika and "F**k America" and "heil" garbage is gone.
Thank you, rorschach!
Susie,
Not only does this worry me, it scares the livin' shit out of me. The wacko fundies are rich, networked up, greased up and loaded for bear.
Mrs. Noodge thinks I'm excitable, that "this could not happen here" and all that. But how many years passed between the year Hitler was elected chancellor and the advent of the concentration camps?
Susie,
Not only does this worry me, it scares the livin' shit out of me. The wacko fundies are rich, networked up, greased up and loaded for bear.
Mrs. Noodge thinks I'm excitable, that "this could not happen here" and all that. But how many years passed between the year Hitler was elected chancellor and the advent of the concentration camps?
You are welcome, Kate.
You are welcome, Kate.
nooge-
it's curiouser and curiouser. there seems to be a dr. wu which i assume is a reference to the character from "dune". there is a mr. wu as well. since i stopped being "fuw", i have been mr. wu's pigs. if you are familiar with hbo's series "deadwood", a lawless place of whoremongers, salloon-keepers and gunslingers making it up as they go along, then you remember, of course, that mr. wu's pigs serve as an official garbage disposal unit for whatever odd corpse may run afoul of the fix. anyone pretending to be me is more than welcome to it.
nooge-
it's curiouser and curiouser. there seems to be a dr. wu which i assume is a reference to the character from "dune". there is a mr. wu as well. since i stopped being "fuw", i have been mr. wu's pigs. if you are familiar with hbo's series "deadwood", a lawless place of whoremongers, salloon-keepers and gunslingers making it up as they go along, then you remember, of course, that mr. wu's pigs serve as an official garbage disposal unit for whatever odd corpse may run afoul of the fix. anyone pretending to be me is more than welcome to it.
That's really insightful, EkCenTriK.
Stepping away from what is acceptable in public discourse (if I understand you correctly) is perhaps what people hunger for in a leader. Seems dangerous though. I had the impression that Carter is looked at as a well meaning but foolish hick - maybe I'm wrong. And look what happened to Lincoln, King, Kennedy, John Lennon and (dare I say it) Jesus of Nazareth [/highfalutincomparisons].
Not to mention Wellstone for us part-time conspiracy buffs...
That's really insightful, EkCenTriK.
Stepping away from what is acceptable in public discourse (if I understand you correctly) is perhaps what people hunger for in a leader. Seems dangerous though. I had the impression that Carter is looked at as a well meaning but foolish hick - maybe I'm wrong. And look what happened to Lincoln, King, Kennedy, John Lennon and (dare I say it) Jesus of Nazareth [/highfalutincomparisons].
Not to mention Wellstone for us part-time conspiracy buffs...
Mr. Wu's Pigs:
That's cool about where your handle comes from.
But isn't the guy in Dune Dr. Yueh?
Mr. Wu's Pigs:
That's cool about where your handle comes from.
But isn't the guy in Dune Dr. Yueh?
noodge,
Had you ever even heard of this group? The International Coalition of Workplace Ministries (ICWM)
Some of the companies, and even the non-profits afilliated with it are not small. A number of them I recognise from watching Iraq contracts.
How prevalent is this Workplace Ministry? Is it affecting promotions and hirings? How do we know?
noodge,
Had you ever even heard of this group? The International Coalition of Workplace Ministries (ICWM)
Some of the companies, and even the non-profits afilliated with it are not small. A number of them I recognise from watching Iraq contracts.
How prevalent is this Workplace Ministry? Is it affecting promotions and hirings? How do we know?
I sooooo miss Wellstone.
I sooooo miss Wellstone.
kerry has been a senator for 20 years and he is compromised to some degree. it is not possible to be a politician for that long and not be. that is why people vote for politicians who claim to not be politicians (g w bush, arnold schwartzenegger, ronald reagan). but of course they are politicians, and they are the most unprincipled ones.
kerry has been a senator for 20 years and he is compromised to some degree. it is not possible to be a politician for that long and not be. that is why people vote for politicians who claim to not be politicians (g w bush, arnold schwartzenegger, ronald reagan). but of course they are politicians, and they are the most unprincipled ones.
I recently came across some of Wellstone's testimony. It makes me sad everytime he's not here.
I recently came across some of Wellstone's testimony. It makes me sad everytime he's not here.
on the workplace ministries thing. i haven't clicked on it but i bet rite-aid is one of them. just a hunch.
on the workplace ministries thing. i haven't clicked on it but i bet rite-aid is one of them. just a hunch.
I like Kerry. I believe he has honesty. That means alot to me.
I like Kerry. I believe he has honesty. That means alot to me.
Did someone tell you that you could not be that leader? I understand what you're saying. I thought, once, that "that guy" would be of my generation. I don't anymore.
I expect now the next time that I feel my soul genuinely moved by a politician it will be a younger man.
Step up, young man or young woman.
I want people to rise up out of the sorrow, the despair, the fear, and to stand up to the leaders our families, our friends, our communities, our country needs, and has been yearning for.
What I know is that fear is the tactic they use to try to make us go away, but we must allow that to control our lives and permeate our beliefs.
Our forebearers gave us the tools and the inspiration to take on any challenge to the principles we hold aloft, and now is the time for us to use those tools and their inspiration to win in this time of darkness.
Did someone tell you that you could not be that leader? I understand what you're saying. I thought, once, that "that guy" would be of my generation. I don't anymore.
I expect now the next time that I feel my soul genuinely moved by a politician it will be a younger man.
Step up, young man or young woman.
I want people to rise up out of the sorrow, the despair, the fear, and to stand up to the leaders our families, our friends, our communities, our country needs, and has been yearning for.
What I know is that fear is the tactic they use to try to make us go away, but we must allow that to control our lives and permeate our beliefs.
Our forebearers gave us the tools and the inspiration to take on any challenge to the principles we hold aloft, and now is the time for us to use those tools and their inspiration to win in this time of darkness.
Susie,
I know nothing about these Workplace Ministry people. I clicked on the link you provided and scanned it quickly. I would not be surprised if they have some affect on people's careers and functions like the communist party in the old USSR and in China.
It seems to me they are just one tentacle of the fundamentalist menace that threatens to continue making the world a very scary place.
I notice with these guys it's all about conversion, us and them, and above all, organizing. Nothing about what Jesus had to say about spiritual matters; "render unto Ceasar what is Caesar's" anyone?
I actually heard Pat Robertson on the radio once, claiming that the render unto Caesar line was Jesus' way of telling Christians to get into politics!
Susie,
I know nothing about these Workplace Ministry people. I clicked on the link you provided and scanned it quickly. I would not be surprised if they have some affect on people's careers and functions like the communist party in the old USSR and in China.
It seems to me they are just one tentacle of the fundamentalist menace that threatens to continue making the world a very scary place.
I notice with these guys it's all about conversion, us and them, and above all, organizing. Nothing about what Jesus had to say about spiritual matters; "render unto Ceasar what is Caesar's" anyone?
I actually heard Pat Robertson on the radio once, claiming that the render unto Caesar line was Jesus' way of telling Christians to get into politics!
Olaf,
No RiteAid, yet.
This is one that blew my mind:
Raytheon Missile Systems
John Goetter
President of RTEAM Bible Club, Raytheon Missile Systems
The RTEAM Bible Club is a network of Bible Studies here at RMS that provide a source of encouragement though the fellowship of gathering together studying God's word with a vision of ministering to our fellow co-workers and our community.
---
Olaf,
No RiteAid, yet.
This is one that blew my mind:
Raytheon Missile Systems
John Goetter
President of RTEAM Bible Club, Raytheon Missile Systems
The RTEAM Bible Club is a network of Bible Studies here at RMS that provide a source of encouragement though the fellowship of gathering together studying God's word with a vision of ministering to our fellow co-workers and our community.
---
"fear is the mind-killer".
perhaps i have been giving "dr. wu" too much credit all these months. you are correct.
it's a funny thing about "dune". i supervise a race and sportsbook in the reno-tahoe area that david lynch used to frequent. i would always rag him about how bloatededly incomprehensible that extravaganza turned out, but never failed to congratulate him on the henry-cuts-the-gamehens scene from "eraserhead" turned out. "deadwood" returns sometime before the vernal equinox. if you aren't a fan already, i cannot reccomend it too highly. best thing on television, and nothing else compares.
"fear is the mind-killer".
perhaps i have been giving "dr. wu" too much credit all these months. you are correct.
it's a funny thing about "dune". i supervise a race and sportsbook in the reno-tahoe area that david lynch used to frequent. i would always rag him about how bloatededly incomprehensible that extravaganza turned out, but never failed to congratulate him on the henry-cuts-the-gamehens scene from "eraserhead" turned out. "deadwood" returns sometime before the vernal equinox. if you aren't a fan already, i cannot reccomend it too highly. best thing on television, and nothing else compares.
How is "Dr. Wu" in any way related to Dune? Are y'all talking about Dr. Yueh?
I am confused.
How is "Dr. Wu" in any way related to Dune? Are y'all talking about Dr. Yueh?
I am confused.
In other words, what Noodge said at 3:08.
In other words, what Noodge said at 3:08.
Susie,
The Raytheon Missile Systems Bible Club thing blows my mind too.
Reminds me of the famous Tom Lehrer comment about political satire having died the day Henry Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize
Susie,
The Raytheon Missile Systems Bible Club thing blows my mind too.
Reminds me of the famous Tom Lehrer comment about political satire having died the day Henry Kissinger won the Nobel Peace Prize
Don't you people ever sleep?
And a big Shout Out to RMJ! Nice to see you on the Big Board, bud. Always loved your posts. (Hint: Don't touch the red button. Trust me on that one.)
Don't you people ever sleep?
And a big Shout Out to RMJ! Nice to see you on the Big Board, bud. Always loved your posts. (Hint: Don't touch the red button. Trust me on that one.)
one more burble and then to bed:
i have inadvertantly given the poster "dr.wu" too effing much credit with the retarded assumption that he was a "dune" enthusiast. i have no effing idea whatever derivation of whatever he has intended he has meant by that handle. although i have read "dune" many times, they were not lately. my grand canyon backcountry backpacking experiences always had a fremen-esque undertone, but that whole "we-will-defer-our-dreams-until-some-distant-date-
beyond-the-event-horizon" thing has never failed to chafe my radical-progressive mindset. oh well, if that's the worse thing that happens to me today then i have to figure that it was a pretty good day. bon soir, comrades.
one more burble and then to bed:
i have inadvertantly given the poster "dr.wu" too effing much credit with the retarded assumption that he was a "dune" enthusiast. i have no effing idea whatever derivation of whatever he has intended he has meant by that handle. although i have read "dune" many times, they were not lately. my grand canyon backcountry backpacking experiences always had a fremen-esque undertone, but that whole "we-will-defer-our-dreams-until-some-distant-date-
beyond-the-event-horizon" thing has never failed to chafe my radical-progressive mindset. oh well, if that's the worse thing that happens to me today then i have to figure that it was a pretty good day. bon soir, comrades.
noodge
I think Carter is a good man, call him a hick, but the man follows his faith. That is why so many of the conservatives deride him so many years later, they cannot step up to his faith and acts, so they can only tear it down. Once again, for a person with no recognized religion, I end up defending someone who is well known for theirs.
And yes you have the gist of what I meant. One thing in these times is we presume the President is the leader. It doesn't matter if a true leader is the President or yesterday was the janitor at the local school. In one respect, as a people, we cannot step away from that structure I mentioned. We do not look in too many other places for leadership. Perhaps we should open our minds up a bit on this. Is it a fact of the politics that we are in angst about or the soul of the country. Who can help lead and heal what is so raw at the moment?
noodge
I think Carter is a good man, call him a hick, but the man follows his faith. That is why so many of the conservatives deride him so many years later, they cannot step up to his faith and acts, so they can only tear it down. Once again, for a person with no recognized religion, I end up defending someone who is well known for theirs.
And yes you have the gist of what I meant. One thing in these times is we presume the President is the leader. It doesn't matter if a true leader is the President or yesterday was the janitor at the local school. In one respect, as a people, we cannot step away from that structure I mentioned. We do not look in too many other places for leadership. Perhaps we should open our minds up a bit on this. Is it a fact of the politics that we are in angst about or the soul of the country. Who can help lead and heal what is so raw at the moment?
Well, addressing the second comment first: "the more matter is outwardly mastered, the more it overwhelms us in our hearts."
No, I think it's rather that the more matter is outwardly mastered, the more we unthinkingly choose to minimize ourselves w/o checking out whether this makes sense for us to go so far. We give it (our 'mastery of matter') more implication than it really carries.
I think that God is just a fact, the fundamental aspect of the world's nature. Belief in God is nothing more than assuming a particular attitude about what's out there. There's nothing particularly reverent or spiritual about it necessarily. For example, believing in God is no different than believing, say, that the ants crawling on the ground in front of you are living. So religion, morality and belief in God are completely severable. There's nothing wingnut or highhanded about it, necessarily.
Belief in god is (or should be, if you're thinking straight and not being coerced by religious fanatics) an attitude about empirical aspects of the world and doesn't entail religion or morality at all. (Morality, however, is taking a certain attitude towards god I think, but I'm digressing).
The problem for modern people w/ God, is that this concept of God has been made to carry so much extraneous baggage over the years, especially to serve as a vehicle for oppression. So God really explains the universe better (because God's a true fact, I think) and so is naturally going to help us understand and live more comfortably if we can incorporate it into our worldview. But because of all the baggage, it rubs people the wrong way and makes them assume they have to throw out the baby with the bath-water. Our relationship with so-called 'matter' grows, and we inadvertently create a false dichotomy between what you call 'matter' - the natural universe - and God, which we correspondingly call a mere human lie. We deal w/ our disatisfaction w/ the 'God' concept by subrogating the 'matter' concept we've created for God.
Addressing the first comment, I think it's crucial to recognize agreement and common aims and divine the source of it. That's a good goal. I guess then you're corresponding 'ideal' I'd consider to be, to adopt a posture which aims towards the actual realization of those solidified common aims and values (rather than just self-identification).
However, I think that 'god' is somewhat beside the point in that endeavor, unless you want to describe it in terms of the left abandoning this harmful presupposition that erratic pluralism is no biggie; this harmful reliance on this convenient (at least, convenient for promting idleness disillusionment from purpose) construct of 'relativism.'
If liberals want to 'find god' (and yes, I guess I'd agree w/ that use of the terminology) by actually doing the mental work and studying their ethics and divining the foundation of it; then I am all for that. A sorely neglected area in al
Well, addressing the second comment first: "the more matter is outwardly mastered, the more it overwhelms us in our hearts."
No, I think it's rather that the more matter is outwardly mastered, the more we unthinkingly choose to minimize ourselves w/o checking out whether this makes sense for us to go so far. We give it (our 'mastery of matter') more implication than it really carries.
I think that God is just a fact, the fundamental aspect of the world's nature. Belief in God is nothing more than assuming a particular attitude about what's out there. There's nothing particularly reverent or spiritual about it necessarily. For example, believing in God is no different than believing, say, that the ants crawling on the ground in front of you are living. So religion, morality and belief in God are completely severable. There's nothing wingnut or highhanded about it, necessarily.
Belief in god is (or should be, if you're thinking straight and not being coerced by religious fanatics) an attitude about empirical aspects of the world and doesn't entail religion or morality at all. (Morality, however, is taking a certain attitude towards god I think, but I'm digressing).
The problem for modern people w/ God, is that this concept of God has been made to carry so much extraneous baggage over the years, especially to serve as a vehicle for oppression. So God really explains the universe better (because God's a true fact, I think) and so is naturally going to help us understand and live more comfortably if we can incorporate it into our worldview. But because of all the baggage, it rubs people the wrong way and makes them assume they have to throw out the baby with the bath-water. Our relationship with so-called 'matter' grows, and we inadvertently create a false dichotomy between what you call 'matter' - the natural universe - and God, which we correspondingly call a mere human lie. We deal w/ our disatisfaction w/ the 'God' concept by subrogating the 'matter' concept we've created for God.
Addressing the first comment, I think it's crucial to recognize agreement and common aims and divine the source of it. That's a good goal. I guess then you're corresponding 'ideal' I'd consider to be, to adopt a posture which aims towards the actual realization of those solidified common aims and values (rather than just self-identification).
However, I think that 'god' is somewhat beside the point in that endeavor, unless you want to describe it in terms of the left abandoning this harmful presupposition that erratic pluralism is no biggie; this harmful reliance on this convenient (at least, convenient for promting idleness disillusionment from purpose) construct of 'relativism.'
If liberals want to 'find god' (and yes, I guess I'd agree w/ that use of the terminology) by actually doing the mental work and studying their ethics and divining the foundation of it; then I am all for that. A sorely neglected area in al
ooops:
If liberals want to 'find god' (and yes, I guess I'd agree w/ that use of the terminology) by actually doing the mental work and studying their ethics and divining the foundation of it; then I am all for that. A sorely neglected area in almost every person's life. If your positions are good, there are good reasons for them. It's *not* simply a matter of "Heck, as long as we're all being sorta-the-same nice, one person's p.o.v. is probably as good as another's." That kind of attitude is counter-productive in the long run. People need to get it together, and it's only going to bring us all together- not pull us apart.
ooops:
If liberals want to 'find god' (and yes, I guess I'd agree w/ that use of the terminology) by actually doing the mental work and studying their ethics and divining the foundation of it; then I am all for that. A sorely neglected area in almost every person's life. If your positions are good, there are good reasons for them. It's *not* simply a matter of "Heck, as long as we're all being sorta-the-same nice, one person's p.o.v. is probably as good as another's." That kind of attitude is counter-productive in the long run. People need to get it together, and it's only going to bring us all together- not pull us apart.
I think that God is just a fact
I think that the nonexistence of God is a much more probable "fact."
I think that God is just a fact
I think that the nonexistence of God is a much more probable "fact."
The white zone
is for loading and
Unloading only.
If you have to load or
Unload, go to the
White zone.
You'll love it.
It's a way of life.
The white zone
is for loading and
Unloading only.
If you have to load or
Unload, go to the
White zone.
You'll love it.
It's a way of life.
"Speak truth to power"
Banging head on desk, who is this originally attributed to?
Anyone?
"Speak truth to power"
Banging head on desk, who is this originally attributed to?
Anyone?
...who is this originally attributed to?
Usually, google is my friend.
It seems it isn't in this case.
...who is this originally attributed to?
Usually, google is my friend.
It seems it isn't in this case.
Central Scrutinizer
Same problem. Funny part is I read several posts elsewhere with the same issue, no one seems to know.
Central Scrutinizer
Same problem. Funny part is I read several posts elsewhere with the same issue, no one seems to know.
EkCenTriK,
It's one of those things that you assume everyone else knows about, while you're left in the dark.
In my case though, that's just about everything.
EkCenTriK,
It's one of those things that you assume everyone else knows about, while you're left in the dark.
In my case though, that's just about everything.
Central Scrutinizer
But at least you get to ask the questions and watch everyone get uncomfortable.
Then they change topic.
Central Scrutinizer
But at least you get to ask the questions and watch everyone get uncomfortable.
Then they change topic.
Is that why that happens?
I thought that maybe people just didn't like me.
G'night y'all.
Is that why that happens?
I thought that maybe people just didn't like me.
G'night y'all.
Nite CS
As they say "Question Authority"
and then sit back and listen to answers.
(Popcorn and milk duds are forbidden unless you consider it entertainment).
Nite CS
As they say "Question Authority"
and then sit back and listen to answers.
(Popcorn and milk duds are forbidden unless you consider it entertainment).
Way too heavy for 5 am reading.
So we have pretty much conquered our physical world. Survival no longer depends on a 24/7 effort. It seems to me much of our passion has been diverted to acquisition. Since the happiness achieved is by definition transitory, we wind up being like the proverbial hamster on a treadmill, always running, never getting anywhere. But if we stop running, society as it has been presented will end. There is a reason why the only meeting places left are malls. The public square has all but been eliminated.
In my building complex the seating areas that are quite park-like were fenced off. We never saw anyone, and in four years have made not one friend. Over the summer the fences came down and new benches were put in. All of a sudden people came. Now when we walk home at night, we are met with a chorus of "Good evenings." We know who has children and what books people like to read.
Still developing. Way too serious. More caffeine.
Way too heavy for 5 am reading.
So we have pretty much conquered our physical world. Survival no longer depends on a 24/7 effort. It seems to me much of our passion has been diverted to acquisition. Since the happiness achieved is by definition transitory, we wind up being like the proverbial hamster on a treadmill, always running, never getting anywhere. But if we stop running, society as it has been presented will end. There is a reason why the only meeting places left are malls. The public square has all but been eliminated.
In my building complex the seating areas that are quite park-like were fenced off. We never saw anyone, and in four years have made not one friend. Over the summer the fences came down and new benches were put in. All of a sudden people came. Now when we walk home at night, we are met with a chorus of "Good evenings." We know who has children and what books people like to read.
Still developing. Way too serious. More caffeine.
Good to see you posting, Robert M. Jeffers.
After decades of thinking about these things as a Catholic, an agnostic, a Catholic again (in response to the martyrs of Central America) and now a free thinking, general theist, I've come to the conclusion that we can't objectively know lots of things about the nature of reality. Religous knowlege is essentially subjective or at least individual. If you believe in a god who is interested in the individual being it makes sense for things to be this way. We all get the explaination, or at least the search we can deal with. That is assuming that we are looking past our own, sweet, number-one selves. Sort of like the Quaker idea of the inner light as a guide.
Science is for dealing with what is knowable about the material world, it can't be beat for that. But it is entirely unable to arrive at a sustainable ethical groundwork for human life. The semi-scientific attempts of psychology in this direction strike me as having been unsuccessful to disasterous.
Greedy, selfish, nosey, vainglorious people make bad neighbors. You might win them over if you try really hard but you might have to work around them with the help of less greedy, selfish,... people. Understanding them and working around them is the basis of successful politics.
Good to see you posting, Robert M. Jeffers.
After decades of thinking about these things as a Catholic, an agnostic, a Catholic again (in response to the martyrs of Central America) and now a free thinking, general theist, I've come to the conclusion that we can't objectively know lots of things about the nature of reality. Religous knowlege is essentially subjective or at least individual. If you believe in a god who is interested in the individual being it makes sense for things to be this way. We all get the explaination, or at least the search we can deal with. That is assuming that we are looking past our own, sweet, number-one selves. Sort of like the Quaker idea of the inner light as a guide.
Science is for dealing with what is knowable about the material world, it can't be beat for that. But it is entirely unable to arrive at a sustainable ethical groundwork for human life. The semi-scientific attempts of psychology in this direction strike me as having been unsuccessful to disasterous.
Greedy, selfish, nosey, vainglorious people make bad neighbors. You might win them over if you try really hard but you might have to work around them with the help of less greedy, selfish,... people. Understanding them and working around them is the basis of successful politics.
"Speak truth to power"
Banging head on desk, who is this originally attributed to?
This is an old Quaker/Friends saying. I believe it came from George Fox, the founder of the Society of Friends.
"Speak truth to power"
Banging head on desk, who is this originally attributed to?
This is an old Quaker/Friends saying. I believe it came from George Fox, the founder of the Society of Friends.
Our forebearers gave us the tools and the inspiration to take on any challenge to the principles we hold aloft, and now is the time for us to use those tools and their inspiration to win in this time of darkness.
KorkSkrew
what a load of steaming crap on the lawn. This is the worst post I have ever read. Our foreberers did not intend us to be sniviling wimps like the Democrats offer, they expected us to kick the crap out of anyone that messes with us.
I hope you go to Canada because your comments reek of weakness.
Our forebearers gave us the tools and the inspiration to take on any challenge to the principles we hold aloft, and now is the time for us to use those tools and their inspiration to win in this time of darkness.
KorkSkrew
what a load of steaming crap on the lawn. This is the worst post I have ever read. Our foreberers did not intend us to be sniviling wimps like the Democrats offer, they expected us to kick the crap out of anyone that messes with us.
I hope you go to Canada because your comments reek of weakness.
Peter 3:16
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
Peter 3:16
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
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