I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
the continuing dumbassification of America
the continuing dumbassification of America
It's a testament to the power of perjury. "Look. we can make shit up and get the news media to publish it, because at least we're not despicable, like liberals."
Has Jerry Falwell been ministering to them?
It's a testament to the power of perjury. "Look. we can make shit up and get the news media to publish it, because at least we're not despicable, like liberals."
Has Jerry Falwell been ministering to them?
dude, your page looks fucked up - the sections are out of size
dude, your page looks fucked up - the sections are out of size
heretohelp,
On my computer it looks normal. Is anyone else having this problem?
heretohelp,
On my computer it looks normal. Is anyone else having this problem?
I tried to send a comment to ABC and got their "error page." I guess they don't really want to hear from me.
I tried to send a comment to ABC and got their "error page." I guess they don't really want to hear from me.
Did anyone else catch the Young Lady on CNN(and I use that term advisedly) covering for vacationing Anderson Cooper (maybe Kelly Wallace?) who's interview of Oliver Stone kept comparing Alexander the Great (who I'll claim as a noble ancestor) to Dubya? Stone parried nicely, discussing the irony of having a movie about an ancient invader of Mesopotamia, while something similar was going on in the region today. The YL then got all giggly over saying that there was no comparison over the sexuality of Alexander and Bush, and how could he depict Alexander and Hephestion's relationship? Stone was spot on in saying that it was history, and it would be a travesty leave it out.
I keep thinking CNN can't go any lower, but I keep being wrong.....
Did anyone else catch the Young Lady on CNN(and I use that term advisedly) covering for vacationing Anderson Cooper (maybe Kelly Wallace?) who's interview of Oliver Stone kept comparing Alexander the Great (who I'll claim as a noble ancestor) to Dubya? Stone parried nicely, discussing the irony of having a movie about an ancient invader of Mesopotamia, while something similar was going on in the region today. The YL then got all giggly over saying that there was no comparison over the sexuality of Alexander and Bush, and how could he depict Alexander and Hephestion's relationship? Stone was spot on in saying that it was history, and it would be a travesty leave it out.
I keep thinking CNN can't go any lower, but I keep being wrong.....
Dear 20/20:
Good Job.
signed,
Atrocious Sycophancy Silicates
Dear 20/20:
Good Job.
signed,
Atrocious Sycophancy Silicates
CNN has been Faux Lite for some time now.
Obviously they had to pull Anderson out of the way of Oncoming Gay Content
CNN has been Faux Lite for some time now.
Obviously they had to pull Anderson out of the way of Oncoming Gay Content
I'm waiting for the right wing scum to start re-writing the history books.
I'm waiting for the right wing scum to start re-writing the history books.
Hecate - Looks the same as always for me, Hecate. No problems.
I'm so utterly disgusted by this whole thing with reshaping what happened to Matthew Shepard that I'm pretty much incoherent.
Hecate - Looks the same as always for me, Hecate. No problems.
I'm so utterly disgusted by this whole thing with reshaping what happened to Matthew Shepard that I'm pretty much incoherent.
Mr. Bill, yeah, just as they're trying to rewrite history on Matthew Shephard, they'll try to rewrite history on Alexander's bi/gay "lifestyle". Oh, no, we must not have any examples of successful "manly" homosexuals.
Mr. Bill, yeah, just as they're trying to rewrite history on Matthew Shephard, they'll try to rewrite history on Alexander's bi/gay "lifestyle". Oh, no, we must not have any examples of successful "manly" homosexuals.
Thanks, Tena. I'm still afraid I'll blow this whole thing up with Atrios away. This re-writing history is so Orwellian. It's creepy. I hate it. I've always heard that the victors got to write history, but I've never seen it happening in real time, like this.
Thanks, Tena. I'm still afraid I'll blow this whole thing up with Atrios away. This re-writing history is so Orwellian. It's creepy. I hate it. I've always heard that the victors got to write history, but I've never seen it happening in real time, like this.
Yesterday the quote of the day in my local newspaper, the Fresno Bee, was from the asshole who killed Matthew. He was saying Matthew was dressed nice and had a wallet full of money. They just wanted to rob him, had nothing to do with being homophobic. move along... nothing here to see.
Yesterday the quote of the day in my local newspaper, the Fresno Bee, was from the asshole who killed Matthew. He was saying Matthew was dressed nice and had a wallet full of money. They just wanted to rob him, had nothing to do with being homophobic. move along... nothing here to see.
Hecate - I've never gotten over that feeling; I really do know what you mean.
I'm just pissed beyond measure at ABC. This is just grotesque.
Hecate - I've never gotten over that feeling; I really do know what you mean.
I'm just pissed beyond measure at ABC. This is just grotesque.
I hate to get involved in this shit since I have a gay daughter and I am always afraid that my judgment is clouded, but here's the problem. If they can away with this, the sky's the limit.
Oh silly me - they already got away with allowing an immoral, criminal bunch sell us a war nobody particularly wanted. Except the the oil interests that is. Have you noticed that if you tell one of these idiots it was all about the oil, they act offended.
I hate to get involved in this shit since I have a gay daughter and I am always afraid that my judgment is clouded, but here's the problem. If they can away with this, the sky's the limit.
Oh silly me - they already got away with allowing an immoral, criminal bunch sell us a war nobody particularly wanted. Except the the oil interests that is. Have you noticed that if you tell one of these idiots it was all about the oil, they act offended.
Yeah, one minute he had a wallet full of money, then later in the interview they said all he had was thirty dollars.
There was so much lying going on, we are supposed to believe Mckinney and his girfriend when they both tell us that they lied the last time around. But, later on, when Vargas pushes the sensationalistic angle that McKinney was bisexual, we are supposed to believe he is lying when he denies it.
Vargas is utter slime, and people who are not critical thinkers are going to believe this garbage that Shepard was a suicidal druggie who pretty much asked for it.
Meanwhile, Vargas smiles as she hands Mckinney a photo of him as a boyscout.
sickening
Yeah, one minute he had a wallet full of money, then later in the interview they said all he had was thirty dollars.
There was so much lying going on, we are supposed to believe Mckinney and his girfriend when they both tell us that they lied the last time around. But, later on, when Vargas pushes the sensationalistic angle that McKinney was bisexual, we are supposed to believe he is lying when he denies it.
Vargas is utter slime, and people who are not critical thinkers are going to believe this garbage that Shepard was a suicidal druggie who pretty much asked for it.
Meanwhile, Vargas smiles as she hands Mckinney a photo of him as a boyscout.
sickening
Hecate, um, victors don't always get to write the history. It only took a couple of decades for the south to bitch and moan about how bad reconstruction was, etc, and all of a sudden Robert E. Lee became a national hero. The south did rewrite their history books. It's factual. They came out seemingly like martyrs, somehow. Sound familiar with our present-day fundies?
Hecate, um, victors don't always get to write the history. It only took a couple of decades for the south to bitch and moan about how bad reconstruction was, etc, and all of a sudden Robert E. Lee became a national hero. The south did rewrite their history books. It's factual. They came out seemingly like martyrs, somehow. Sound familiar with our present-day fundies?
If they can away with this, the sky's the limit.
I agree, QuiltLady. Freedom is slavery. Peace is war. Up is down. It just makes me sick.
If they can away with this, the sky's the limit.
I agree, QuiltLady. Freedom is slavery. Peace is war. Up is down. It just makes me sick.
The Young Lady said something like "We just had an election where opposition to Gay Marriage carried the day, and yet you depict this in this movie. What were you thinking?"
She did not seem to get Stone's point about historical accuracy, and then attacked him over "JFK". Stone tried to say that "JFK" was from Jim Garrison's viewpoint, and not literal history. She didn't get it.
It's the same mentality that thinks that not posting the 10 Commandments in a courtroom means you oppose the ideas in the 10 Commandments. Or that the Founding Father's allusions to God mean that they were fundamentalist dominionists.
The Young Lady said something like "We just had an election where opposition to Gay Marriage carried the day, and yet you depict this in this movie. What were you thinking?"
She did not seem to get Stone's point about historical accuracy, and then attacked him over "JFK". Stone tried to say that "JFK" was from Jim Garrison's viewpoint, and not literal history. She didn't get it.
It's the same mentality that thinks that not posting the 10 Commandments in a courtroom means you oppose the ideas in the 10 Commandments. Or that the Founding Father's allusions to God mean that they were fundamentalist dominionists.
Pine Lake Larry,
You're right. I never thought of it that way. Good point!
Pine Lake Larry,
You're right. I never thought of it that way. Good point!
Contrary to what the murderers were saying at the time, IIRC. I believe one of them used the "gay panic" defense, that Matthew Shepard's hitting on him triggered memories of childhood abuse.
(Which of course also perpetuates the gay = child abuse meme.)
As for Alexander, possibly we would consider him bi nowadays--he did beget at least one son--but more many Greeks in his day, the question "Males or female?" was regarded in the same light we might regard the flight attendant's question of "Chicken or fish?" for a meal. Not something one worried about if one's neighbor made the other choice, and indeed one might make the other choice under other circumstances.
Contrary to what the murderers were saying at the time, IIRC. I believe one of them used the "gay panic" defense, that Matthew Shepard's hitting on him triggered memories of childhood abuse.
(Which of course also perpetuates the gay = child abuse meme.)
As for Alexander, possibly we would consider him bi nowadays--he did beget at least one son--but more many Greeks in his day, the question "Males or female?" was regarded in the same light we might regard the flight attendant's question of "Chicken or fish?" for a meal. Not something one worried about if one's neighbor made the other choice, and indeed one might make the other choice under other circumstances.
"This re-writing history is so Orwellian. It's creepy. I hate it. I've always heard that the victors got to write history, but I've never seen it happening in real time, like this."
Yes, well, that's rather the point, ain't it? I'm a grownup. Granted, I'm a grownup historian which means (amongst those who know) that my short term memory is basically lousy. However, even I actually not only remember the Shepherd case, but remember it as occurring quite clearly within the -last few years-. This is not along the same lines as my mother's inexplicable conviction that the French Revolution took place in the 1800s (we got that sorted out with the application of sufficient texts and references) because she was not actually -in- the French Revolution and as a result really had little personal stake in her memory's authority in that matter.
But now we're talking about the equivalent of last week, and I was there, it wasn't long ago and now we have some authoritative projection figure (if it's on a computer screen it's right!) announcing that my ownself's memory is wrong.
Orwell? Orwell's events lasted longer than this. This is well and truly scary, and I am, as a result, well and truly scared. Can anyone tell me, that stuff I remember about OJ Simpson and the car chase - that happened, right? Did we find weaponry of mass destruction after all?
"This re-writing history is so Orwellian. It's creepy. I hate it. I've always heard that the victors got to write history, but I've never seen it happening in real time, like this."
Yes, well, that's rather the point, ain't it? I'm a grownup. Granted, I'm a grownup historian which means (amongst those who know) that my short term memory is basically lousy. However, even I actually not only remember the Shepherd case, but remember it as occurring quite clearly within the -last few years-. This is not along the same lines as my mother's inexplicable conviction that the French Revolution took place in the 1800s (we got that sorted out with the application of sufficient texts and references) because she was not actually -in- the French Revolution and as a result really had little personal stake in her memory's authority in that matter.
But now we're talking about the equivalent of last week, and I was there, it wasn't long ago and now we have some authoritative projection figure (if it's on a computer screen it's right!) announcing that my ownself's memory is wrong.
Orwell? Orwell's events lasted longer than this. This is well and truly scary, and I am, as a result, well and truly scared. Can anyone tell me, that stuff I remember about OJ Simpson and the car chase - that happened, right? Did we find weaponry of mass destruction after all?
the correct email address to criticize 20-20 is 2020@abc.com
The link Atrios provides lets you write your comments and then gives you an error message when you try to send it. This is likely intentional...when I worked at ABC News in the pre-internet days, the first thing the Audience Relations clerk did each morning was erase the phone calls left on the answering machine commenting on the previous day's news coverage. Of course she erased the comments WITHOUT listening to them!
the correct email address to criticize 20-20 is 2020@abc.com
The link Atrios provides lets you write your comments and then gives you an error message when you try to send it. This is likely intentional...when I worked at ABC News in the pre-internet days, the first thing the Audience Relations clerk did each morning was erase the phone calls left on the answering machine commenting on the previous day's news coverage. Of course she erased the comments WITHOUT listening to them!
GWPDA,
You put into words what I find so creepy about it. It's like the words "reality tv". That's not real-life, it's not even a filming of real life, but to lots of Americans it's more "real" than what happens to them every day in their real lives. So if a pretty lady on tv says that yesterday was sunny and bright, they believe that it was sunny and bright, even though they themselves were carrying umbrellas and wearing galoshes to splash through puddles less than 24 hours ago. Shepard wasn't killed because he was gay; Saddam was involved in 9/11; we have to be in Iraq to fight the terrorists; the economy is booming; we've always hated the French. Those of us who don't adjust can expect re-education camps any day now, I guess.
GWPDA,
You put into words what I find so creepy about it. It's like the words "reality tv". That's not real-life, it's not even a filming of real life, but to lots of Americans it's more "real" than what happens to them every day in their real lives. So if a pretty lady on tv says that yesterday was sunny and bright, they believe that it was sunny and bright, even though they themselves were carrying umbrellas and wearing galoshes to splash through puddles less than 24 hours ago. Shepard wasn't killed because he was gay; Saddam was involved in 9/11; we have to be in Iraq to fight the terrorists; the economy is booming; we've always hated the French. Those of us who don't adjust can expect re-education camps any day now, I guess.
When you write to 20/20, make sure to ask when Ms. Vargas is going to give O.J. a similar blowjob...
When you write to 20/20, make sure to ask when Ms. Vargas is going to give O.J. a similar blowjob...
Yeah, it was a real eye opener when we moved to Atlanta from Los Angeles in the early 60s. The history being taught in Georgia about the civil war was nothing like it was in the blue states. I'm not saying reconstruction was not bad on southerners. I remember a great aunt talking about those times. Lawlessness was everywhere and that gave the rise to the KKK.
But, still, don't underestimate the power that teachers have in influencing young people, even today. I remember talking to a friend of mine in the 8th grade, okay, not so close a friend, but anyway he said they were moving to north Georgia to get away from Atlanta and apropos of nothing said that he didn't see a problem with slavery and that he would build a nice little cabin in the back if he had a slave. My mouth dropped open!
Yeah, it was a real eye opener when we moved to Atlanta from Los Angeles in the early 60s. The history being taught in Georgia about the civil war was nothing like it was in the blue states. I'm not saying reconstruction was not bad on southerners. I remember a great aunt talking about those times. Lawlessness was everywhere and that gave the rise to the KKK.
But, still, don't underestimate the power that teachers have in influencing young people, even today. I remember talking to a friend of mine in the 8th grade, okay, not so close a friend, but anyway he said they were moving to north Georgia to get away from Atlanta and apropos of nothing said that he didn't see a problem with slavery and that he would build a nice little cabin in the back if he had a slave. My mouth dropped open!
QuiltLady - You are exactly who should be involved in this shit because you are already. You are exactly the person that ABC needs to hear from. They need to know that they are having an impact on real people with real lives who can be and are hurt by this shit, for real. Not as a question of belief, but as one of reality.
I mean it - please write.
QuiltLady - You are exactly who should be involved in this shit because you are already. You are exactly the person that ABC needs to hear from. They need to know that they are having an impact on real people with real lives who can be and are hurt by this shit, for real. Not as a question of belief, but as one of reality.
I mean it - please write.
" Those of us who don't adjust can expect re-education camps any day now, I guess."
Yes, it's becoming both offensively overt and offensively heavy-handed. As for re-education camps, I would draw your attention to the actions on the thread below - there are always quislings about.
I have an idea it's the overtness of the game that I most object to. Merely trying to persuade individuals that east is west is pretty time-honored within a capitalist system; after all this is a system that recently marketed the ***NEW**** revolutionary cleaning product that combined *****VINEGAR***** and ****AMMONIA****.... And got people to buy it at 4.95 a pop. However, there are other things now being pushed besides ammonia and it strikes me that anything now being pushed by a US commercial news outlet is something that is inherently dangerous. That includes the weather forecast.
" Those of us who don't adjust can expect re-education camps any day now, I guess."
Yes, it's becoming both offensively overt and offensively heavy-handed. As for re-education camps, I would draw your attention to the actions on the thread below - there are always quislings about.
I have an idea it's the overtness of the game that I most object to. Merely trying to persuade individuals that east is west is pretty time-honored within a capitalist system; after all this is a system that recently marketed the ***NEW**** revolutionary cleaning product that combined *****VINEGAR***** and ****AMMONIA****.... And got people to buy it at 4.95 a pop. However, there are other things now being pushed besides ammonia and it strikes me that anything now being pushed by a US commercial news outlet is something that is inherently dangerous. That includes the weather forecast.
GWPDA,
You remember correctly. Matthew was killed because they thought he had WMDs.
GWPDA,
You remember correctly. Matthew was killed because they thought he had WMDs.
Spinoza - gee, this serial living is just so damned hard. It's just hard. It's just really, really hard.
Spinoza - gee, this serial living is just so damned hard. It's just hard. It's just really, really hard.
GWPDA - I tried your recipe with the green chiles and sour cream, but with tofu. Um, not so good. I guess it doesn't translate well with tofu.
GWPDA - I tried your recipe with the green chiles and sour cream, but with tofu. Um, not so good. I guess it doesn't translate well with tofu.
GWPA, Marge Piercy has a great poem about what's wrong with believing the weather reports of corporate America. Literally their weather reports. I'll try to dig it up when I get home. It's wonderful.
GWPA, Marge Piercy has a great poem about what's wrong with believing the weather reports of corporate America. Literally their weather reports. I'll try to dig it up when I get home. It's wonderful.
OT...
What a great picture, I wish it was real
OT...
What a great picture, I wish it was real
GWPA=GWPDA. Sorry!
GWPA=GWPDA. Sorry!
What is it with ABC?
Why are they so unabashedly doing public beer bongs of the Rethug Kool-Aid lately?
- Recently, Peter Jennings arrogantly narrated a revisitation of the murder of JFK, replete with "state-of-the-art" computer graphic representations and demonifications of Oswald which purported to shut the door on any questioning of the Warren Report/Single Bullet Theory. While attempting to tinfoil hat anyone who has questioned the official 1964 government "version", he found it very convenient to completely exclude the mountains of physical medical forensic evidence that is devastating to the original theory.
- Ol' Black Pete also recently interviwed Billy Jeff on his library opening event, curtly dismissing that man's eight years of numerous political successes against desperately long odds by summing up his Presidency as a "failure of moral leadership".
- Now they are providing gratis PR to a pair of enraged homophobes, by bolstering one of the weakest offerings of behavioral exculpation I've ever witnessed.
If Disney wants to brand liberals as societal pirates and buccaneers, I say we raise the black flag and start slitting throats.
What is it with ABC?
Why are they so unabashedly doing public beer bongs of the Rethug Kool-Aid lately?
- Recently, Peter Jennings arrogantly narrated a revisitation of the murder of JFK, replete with "state-of-the-art" computer graphic representations and demonifications of Oswald which purported to shut the door on any questioning of the Warren Report/Single Bullet Theory. While attempting to tinfoil hat anyone who has questioned the official 1964 government "version", he found it very convenient to completely exclude the mountains of physical medical forensic evidence that is devastating to the original theory.
- Ol' Black Pete also recently interviwed Billy Jeff on his library opening event, curtly dismissing that man's eight years of numerous political successes against desperately long odds by summing up his Presidency as a "failure of moral leadership".
- Now they are providing gratis PR to a pair of enraged homophobes, by bolstering one of the weakest offerings of behavioral exculpation I've ever witnessed.
If Disney wants to brand liberals as societal pirates and buccaneers, I say we raise the black flag and start slitting throats.
I used to think that claims that Republicans were trying to attack the "Gay Agenda" specifically were just over-blown, but after reading this, I have to agree that there is some sort of agenda at work here.
I think it's great that people are calling the media on this.
But what is happening to America? Why do the gays have to pay for 9/11?
I used to think that claims that Republicans were trying to attack the "Gay Agenda" specifically were just over-blown, but after reading this, I have to agree that there is some sort of agenda at work here.
I think it's great that people are calling the media on this.
But what is happening to America? Why do the gays have to pay for 9/11?
PLL I'm sorry. My doctor forbids my ingestion of tofu, but I was afraid that it mightn't translate. You know, you might just want to use a boiled potato instead and treat the whole thing as a side dish.
And oldwhitelady? You may perhaps recall that the French version of the Canadian anthem does exhort the citizenry to guard our foyers. I can think of nothing so threatening to the Canadian foyer than the presence in it of a convicted drunk driver and malfeasant.
PLL I'm sorry. My doctor forbids my ingestion of tofu, but I was afraid that it mightn't translate. You know, you might just want to use a boiled potato instead and treat the whole thing as a side dish.
And oldwhitelady? You may perhaps recall that the French version of the Canadian anthem does exhort the citizenry to guard our foyers. I can think of nothing so threatening to the Canadian foyer than the presence in it of a convicted drunk driver and malfeasant.
OT...
What a great picture, I wish it was real
And, bang! Just like that, in one fell swoop, Canada becomes the hero of the entire free world!
OT...
What a great picture, I wish it was real
And, bang! Just like that, in one fell swoop, Canada becomes the hero of the entire free world!
French version of the Canadian anthem does exhort the citizenry to guard our foyers GWPDA-Please support the president! Foyers are now called "patriot patios"
French version of the Canadian anthem does exhort the citizenry to guard our foyers GWPDA-Please support the president! Foyers are now called "patriot patios"
Were the Greeks really so enlightened? I always thought societies of that time were open about homosexuality(the men, at least) beause they viewed women as inferior. Necessary for childbirth, of course, but not worth hanging around and having as companions.
Were the Greeks really so enlightened? I always thought societies of that time were open about homosexuality(the men, at least) beause they viewed women as inferior. Necessary for childbirth, of course, but not worth hanging around and having as companions.
They really should just start spelling it "newz," as in "krab." Truth in advertising and all that.
They really should just start spelling it "newz," as in "krab." Truth in advertising and all that.
Patriot potatoes? Patriot patois? Oh, it's just so hard.....
Patriot potatoes? Patriot patois? Oh, it's just so hard.....
Tena - I wrote
Tena - I wrote
GWPDA - damn, that's a hard handle to remember - anyway, that's okay. I tried green chiles for the first time because of your rants about it, and I love them. I went to our international farmer's market to get some but all I could get were canned. They tasted great though. Thanks.
Dissenter, you know we're responsible for 9/11. Don't you remember Jerry Falwell pointing his finger at us and the ACLU and the feminists, etc, and saying this is all because of us? Come on, sure you remember.
GWPDA - damn, that's a hard handle to remember - anyway, that's okay. I tried green chiles for the first time because of your rants about it, and I love them. I went to our international farmer's market to get some but all I could get were canned. They tasted great though. Thanks.
Dissenter, you know we're responsible for 9/11. Don't you remember Jerry Falwell pointing his finger at us and the ACLU and the feminists, etc, and saying this is all because of us? Come on, sure you remember.
Retarded post Hecate.
Retarded post Hecate.
Revisionist history rears its ugly head again.
Do these people know no shame?
Revisionist history rears its ugly head again.
Do these people know no shame?
I didn't watch 20/20, but I heard a mention on news radio about the attorney claiming this wasn't a hate motivated crime. Yeah, I would say they are busy re-writing the past. They are now blaming the killing on meth abuse? Cheney them!
I didn't watch 20/20, but I heard a mention on news radio about the attorney claiming this wasn't a hate motivated crime. Yeah, I would say they are busy re-writing the past. They are now blaming the killing on meth abuse? Cheney them!
hecate - "And, bang! Just like that, in one fell swoop, Canada becomes the hero of the entire free world!"
so good it had to be repeated.
hecate - "And, bang! Just like that, in one fell swoop, Canada becomes the hero of the entire free world!"
so good it had to be repeated.
QuiltLady - I'm so glad you did. Thanks.
QuiltLady - I'm so glad you did. Thanks.
Hecate--
Retarded post Hecate.
The best part about this gig: your own personal peanut gallery.
Been wantin' one of those for years. Now I get one for Xmas....
Hecate--
Retarded post Hecate.
The best part about this gig: your own personal peanut gallery.
Been wantin' one of those for years. Now I get one for Xmas....
All you guest bloggers are doing a great job! Yaaay! Hip hip hooray! I have been and am enjoying them, one and all!
All you guest bloggers are doing a great job! Yaaay! Hip hip hooray! I have been and am enjoying them, one and all!
Yes, thank you Hecate and other guest bloggers.
Yes, thank you Hecate and other guest bloggers.
Yeah, this is about the best bunch of guest bloggers yet.
Yeah, this is about the best bunch of guest bloggers yet.
RMJ's post below was so deep I have been munching on it all day, and still don't have an answer.
You guys are all great. Pat yourselves on the back, you deserve it.
It's even neat to have the AMan post an early morning thread for us early risers.
RMJ's post below was so deep I have been munching on it all day, and still don't have an answer.
You guys are all great. Pat yourselves on the back, you deserve it.
It's even neat to have the AMan post an early morning thread for us early risers.
I want to sniff some...
ASS-PANTIES!!!!!11
I want to sniff some...
ASS-PANTIES!!!!!11
Were the Greeks really so enlightened? I always thought societies of that time were open about homosexuality(the men, at least) beause they viewed women as inferior. Necessary for childbirth, of course, but not worth hanging around and having as companions.
Well, "the Greeks" existed for over fifteen hundred years, taking the triumph of Christianity in the 4th century CE as a cutoff date, in communities scattered around the Mediterranean and the Black Sea and across the Middle East to the borders of India, so it's hard to discuss without overgeneralizing OTOH or following each statement with its qualification OTOH.
The status of women varied a good deal over this period of time and from place to place. In some places and at some times women had a relatively high status, at others relatively low. Women's status also varied with class: the higher a woman was on the totem pole, the more privileges and opportunites she had.
Equality between the sexes in a practical sense, as opposed to equality before the law or equality as human beings, nowadays is predicated IMHO largely on the industrial revolution making more irrelevant individual body strength and improved prenatal care bringing replacement rate of birth down to two children per couple. Among the Greeks, half of all pregnancies were ended by miscarriage, half of all infants born were born dead, and something like a third of all children born died before the age of five. (I think the replacement rate was close to five births per woman, and life expectancy was only into the twenties.) Therefore, it was necessary for women to keep bearing children, for fear the family or the city would die out. If one wanted to be sure to be taken care of in one's old age, furthermore, one needed children to grow up and do it.
As for sexual orientation, which is what I was referring to my post above, the Greeks did not have the same sort of anxieties about it as we do. Traditionally among us (Western Europe and those coming from W. Europe to settle other parts of the globe) it has been considered shameful to be attracted to and have sex with members of one's own gender, and not shameful/preferable to be attracted to and have sex with members of the other gender. Among the Greeks prior to Christiantiy, those who were attracted to males didn't look down on one for being attracted to females, or vice versa.
Were the Greeks really so enlightened? I always thought societies of that time were open about homosexuality(the men, at least) beause they viewed women as inferior. Necessary for childbirth, of course, but not worth hanging around and having as companions.
Well, "the Greeks" existed for over fifteen hundred years, taking the triumph of Christianity in the 4th century CE as a cutoff date, in communities scattered around the Mediterranean and the Black Sea and across the Middle East to the borders of India, so it's hard to discuss without overgeneralizing OTOH or following each statement with its qualification OTOH.
The status of women varied a good deal over this period of time and from place to place. In some places and at some times women had a relatively high status, at others relatively low. Women's status also varied with class: the higher a woman was on the totem pole, the more privileges and opportunites she had.
Equality between the sexes in a practical sense, as opposed to equality before the law or equality as human beings, nowadays is predicated IMHO largely on the industrial revolution making more irrelevant individual body strength and improved prenatal care bringing replacement rate of birth down to two children per couple. Among the Greeks, half of all pregnancies were ended by miscarriage, half of all infants born were born dead, and something like a third of all children born died before the age of five. (I think the replacement rate was close to five births per woman, and life expectancy was only into the twenties.) Therefore, it was necessary for women to keep bearing children, for fear the family or the city would die out. If one wanted to be sure to be taken care of in one's old age, furthermore, one needed children to grow up and do it.
As for sexual orientation, which is what I was referring to my post above, the Greeks did not have the same sort of anxieties about it as we do. Traditionally among us (Western Europe and those coming from W. Europe to settle other parts of the globe) it has been considered shameful to be attracted to and have sex with members of one's own gender, and not shameful/preferable to be attracted to and have sex with members of the other gender. Among the Greeks prior to Christiantiy, those who were attracted to males didn't look down on one for being attracted to females, or vice versa.
Great guest bloggers. I agree.
Everytime I see Robert M. Jeffers name I think of the poet Robinson Jeffers. So, in your honor, Mr. Jeffers, here is a poem of his. It's terribly bleak, but then again, so was the slaughter of Matthew Shepard.
I am old and in the ordinary course of nature
shall die soon, but the human race is not old
But rather childish, it is an infant and acts
like one,
And now it has captured the keys of the kingdoms
of unearthly violence. Will it use them? It
loves destruction you know.
And the earth is too small to feed us, we must
have room.
It seems expedient that not as of old one man,
but many nations and races die for the people.
Have you noticed meanwhile the population
explosion
Of man on earth, the torrents of new-born babies,
the bursting schools? Astonishing. It saps
man's dignity.
We used to be individuals, not populations.
Perhaps we are now preparing for the great
slaughter. No reason to be alarmed; stone-dead
is dead;
Breeding like rabbits we hasten to meet the day.
Great guest bloggers. I agree.
Everytime I see Robert M. Jeffers name I think of the poet Robinson Jeffers. So, in your honor, Mr. Jeffers, here is a poem of his. It's terribly bleak, but then again, so was the slaughter of Matthew Shepard.
I am old and in the ordinary course of nature
shall die soon, but the human race is not old
But rather childish, it is an infant and acts
like one,
And now it has captured the keys of the kingdoms
of unearthly violence. Will it use them? It
loves destruction you know.
And the earth is too small to feed us, we must
have room.
It seems expedient that not as of old one man,
but many nations and races die for the people.
Have you noticed meanwhile the population
explosion
Of man on earth, the torrents of new-born babies,
the bursting schools? Astonishing. It saps
man's dignity.
We used to be individuals, not populations.
Perhaps we are now preparing for the great
slaughter. No reason to be alarmed; stone-dead
is dead;
Breeding like rabbits we hasten to meet the day.
Cheers for the guest bloggers!
20/20 sucks as it is. Now they're just disgusting and inhuman. Plus, I seriously want to punch John Stossel in the face. Who's with me?
Cheers for the guest bloggers!
20/20 sucks as it is. Now they're just disgusting and inhuman. Plus, I seriously want to punch John Stossel in the face. Who's with me?
Who care if it wasn't a hate motivated crime? It doesn't diminish the horrific actions of the perps. It doesn't diminish their guilt in any way. They're still going to rot in prison for the rest of their lives (assuming that one dude isn't successful with his appeal). Frankly, I'm glad that their cynical courtroom and media tactic of playing against the community's homophobia failded so miserably. There's your real hate crime: a courtroom defense based on a gambit of jury homophobia. Shepard was just another druggie who, like a lot of kids that get in over their heads, made a terrible choice and crawled into the wrong pickup cab that night.
Who care if it wasn't a hate motivated crime? It doesn't diminish the horrific actions of the perps. It doesn't diminish their guilt in any way. They're still going to rot in prison for the rest of their lives (assuming that one dude isn't successful with his appeal). Frankly, I'm glad that their cynical courtroom and media tactic of playing against the community's homophobia failded so miserably. There's your real hate crime: a courtroom defense based on a gambit of jury homophobia. Shepard was just another druggie who, like a lot of kids that get in over their heads, made a terrible choice and crawled into the wrong pickup cab that night.
Obviously they had to pull Anderson out of the way of Oncoming Gay Content
hee hee hee!!!!!
Obviously they had to pull Anderson out of the way of Oncoming Gay Content
hee hee hee!!!!!
Plus, I seriously want to punch John Stossel in the face. Who's with me?
ME ME ME ME ME!!!!!!!!!
Plus, I seriously want to punch John Stossel in the face. Who's with me?
ME ME ME ME ME!!!!!!!!!
PTL - Try your local megamarket, frozen foods aisle for Bueno frozen green or red chile. It's a local NM operation that flash freezes the chile straight up from Hatch - it's what it really tastes like. And you know, there's many a good receipt for plain old green chile stew which doesnt contain any meat at all - New Mexican cuise is country-born and meat is pretty much for fiesta, so there's lots of good meatless eating there. (Me, I'm making carne adovada tomorrow cause I found this really good looking dead pig, wearing lipstick oddly enough....)
And that's G(reat) W(ar) P(rimary) D(ocuments) A(rchive). Easy.
PTL - Try your local megamarket, frozen foods aisle for Bueno frozen green or red chile. It's a local NM operation that flash freezes the chile straight up from Hatch - it's what it really tastes like. And you know, there's many a good receipt for plain old green chile stew which doesnt contain any meat at all - New Mexican cuise is country-born and meat is pretty much for fiesta, so there's lots of good meatless eating there. (Me, I'm making carne adovada tomorrow cause I found this really good looking dead pig, wearing lipstick oddly enough....)
And that's G(reat) W(ar) P(rimary) D(ocuments) A(rchive). Easy.
this & the larry kramer speech are what has brought me out of my post-election depression (well actually thats probably gonna last the rest of my life).
this got me mad enough to get back in the game.
this & the larry kramer speech are what has brought me out of my post-election depression (well actually thats probably gonna last the rest of my life).
this got me mad enough to get back in the game.
Between the Washington Post and 20/20 is it open season on gay people now?
Between the Washington Post and 20/20 is it open season on gay people now?
Lawyer trick. The hate crime designation means they will never see the light of day. When I saw that for a second, that's all that was. A desperate lawyer's trick and should be treated like Mark Geragos's claim a coven killed Laci Peterson.
Lawyer trick. The hate crime designation means they will never see the light of day. When I saw that for a second, that's all that was. A desperate lawyer's trick and should be treated like Mark Geragos's claim a coven killed Laci Peterson.
Obviously they had to pull Anderson out of the way of Oncoming Gay Content
David Ehrenstein
Yeah, that was funny, David. Thanks for your article though. Pisses me off.
Do you think Bill Hemmer is gay? Sometimes I've wondered if maybe he and Cooper don't have some action going on.
Obviously they had to pull Anderson out of the way of Oncoming Gay Content
David Ehrenstein
Yeah, that was funny, David. Thanks for your article though. Pisses me off.
Do you think Bill Hemmer is gay? Sometimes I've wondered if maybe he and Cooper don't have some action going on.
ASS-PANTIES!!!!11
ASS-PANTIES!!!!11
a poster on dkos says that they were interviewed for the 20/20 piece..
here are the posts, copied & pasted from dkos thread
I was interviewed for the 20/20 piece (4.00 / 5)
I'm the ex-newspaper reporter who was quoted.
They used none of what I had to say about Matthew, just some stuff about the news story and about my response. I really wanted to talk about who Matthew Shepard was, but they used none of that.
Over at matthewshepard.org the family notes that little of their interviews were used, and that the detective who didn't buy into their theories was largely consigned to the editing room floor as well.
Overall it was a huge waste of journalistic effort, that will only further senationalize the crime and muddy the waters. Their interview subjects who revealed all the "shocking secrets" were pretty hard to take seriously IMO.
by Longshanks on Sat Nov 27th, 2004 at 02:44:33 ADT
....
I think it's over. (none / 0)
In the end, this is 45 minutes of TV flying in the face of six years of international discussion. 20/20 has a lot of reach but I think the flimsiness of their sources, plus the overpowering conventional wisdom that has developed around the case, will consign this theory to the dustbin.
by Longshanks on Sat Nov 27th, 2004 at 17:09:16 ADT
...
We talked about Matt for hours (none / 0)
for that interview. About his language skills, his interest in diplomacy, his admiration for Mandela - and most chillingly, how Matt was the first person (in 1997) who told me about the Taliban and what they were doing to women in Afghanistan. Years later after 9/11 it haunted me that, while I was a news junkie, he knew more about this terrible gathering threat than I did or anyone I ever talked with in the news business. Seriously ,it was moving.
They asked me about the meth thing and I pointed out that early in my writing career, I covered the deputy police chief speaking to a service club and saying that the real threat from meth was that people would go farther with their destructive behavior than they otherwise would have - that burglaries were turning into armed robberies, assaults turning into manslaughters and murders. I noted that while the show was interested in presenting an "either/or" scenario - either it was a hate crime, or a drug rage episode - that most likely the two were inseparable. IE, what started as an anti-gay attitude mixed with an urge to commit armed robbery, became a murder because the meth fueled the anti-gay rage that was already there. And we talked about McKinney's own statement to police - not even acknowledged by 20/20, much less quoted - that showed clear antigay violence brewing in McKinney before the crime happened.
That was a lot of it that got left out - not all; I was there all afternoon. Oh well. In the end I think 20/20 looked careless and sensationalistic. I'm sorry they left out
a poster on dkos says that they were interviewed for the 20/20 piece..
here are the posts, copied & pasted from dkos thread
I was interviewed for the 20/20 piece (4.00 / 5)
I'm the ex-newspaper reporter who was quoted.
They used none of what I had to say about Matthew, just some stuff about the news story and about my response. I really wanted to talk about who Matthew Shepard was, but they used none of that.
Over at matthewshepard.org the family notes that little of their interviews were used, and that the detective who didn't buy into their theories was largely consigned to the editing room floor as well.
Overall it was a huge waste of journalistic effort, that will only further senationalize the crime and muddy the waters. Their interview subjects who revealed all the "shocking secrets" were pretty hard to take seriously IMO.
by Longshanks on Sat Nov 27th, 2004 at 02:44:33 ADT
....
I think it's over. (none / 0)
In the end, this is 45 minutes of TV flying in the face of six years of international discussion. 20/20 has a lot of reach but I think the flimsiness of their sources, plus the overpowering conventional wisdom that has developed around the case, will consign this theory to the dustbin.
by Longshanks on Sat Nov 27th, 2004 at 17:09:16 ADT
...
We talked about Matt for hours (none / 0)
for that interview. About his language skills, his interest in diplomacy, his admiration for Mandela - and most chillingly, how Matt was the first person (in 1997) who told me about the Taliban and what they were doing to women in Afghanistan. Years later after 9/11 it haunted me that, while I was a news junkie, he knew more about this terrible gathering threat than I did or anyone I ever talked with in the news business. Seriously ,it was moving.
They asked me about the meth thing and I pointed out that early in my writing career, I covered the deputy police chief speaking to a service club and saying that the real threat from meth was that people would go farther with their destructive behavior than they otherwise would have - that burglaries were turning into armed robberies, assaults turning into manslaughters and murders. I noted that while the show was interested in presenting an "either/or" scenario - either it was a hate crime, or a drug rage episode - that most likely the two were inseparable. IE, what started as an anti-gay attitude mixed with an urge to commit armed robbery, became a murder because the meth fueled the anti-gay rage that was already there. And we talked about McKinney's own statement to police - not even acknowledged by 20/20, much less quoted - that showed clear antigay violence brewing in McKinney before the crime happened.
That was a lot of it that got left out - not all; I was there all afternoon. Oh well. In the end I think 20/20 looked careless and sensationalistic. I'm sorry they left out
truncated!
That was a lot of it that got left out - not all; I was there all afternoon. Oh well. In the end I think 20/20 looked careless and sensationalistic. I'm sorry they left out so much of the Shepard family's comments and those of detective OMalley. Those were the sources whose inteviews should have been used more. Me, I will go back to my life feeling like at least I tried. Plus, my sister thought I looked good on TV. So there's that. 
Anyone who wants to see more should had over to http://matthewshepard.org for their point by point critique. And send them a sawbuck. They are doing great work.
by Longshanks on Sat Nov 27th, 2004 at 17:17:11 ADT
truncated!
That was a lot of it that got left out - not all; I was there all afternoon. Oh well. In the end I think 20/20 looked careless and sensationalistic. I'm sorry they left out so much of the Shepard family's comments and those of detective OMalley. Those were the sources whose inteviews should have been used more. Me, I will go back to my life feeling like at least I tried. Plus, my sister thought I looked good on TV. So there's that.
Anyone who wants to see more should had over to http://matthewshepard.org for their point by point critique. And send them a sawbuck. They are doing great work.
by Longshanks on Sat Nov 27th, 2004 at 17:17:11 ADT
Beware the beast, Neotheocon -- a power-hungry paradox, a Big Government Conservative. An unsettling admixture of corporatism and theocracy, he will feed on the debts of our children to fund tax breaks for the rich, yachts for the president, and social controls on our families. He will demand a bizarro-world Soviet society, where religion is inculcated and conglomerated capitalism is freed. Shun him, for he is the harbinger of fascism.
Beware the beast, Neotheocon -- a power-hungry paradox, a Big Government Conservative. An unsettling admixture of corporatism and theocracy, he will feed on the debts of our children to fund tax breaks for the rich, yachts for the president, and social controls on our families. He will demand a bizarro-world Soviet society, where religion is inculcated and conglomerated capitalism is freed. Shun him, for he is the harbinger of fascism.
Pine Lake Larry, I've wondered about Hemmer, myself, though not about his sexual orientation.
He started out on the local newscast in Cincinnati, to the best of my knowledge, doing his pretty, empty-suit tapdance back in the early '90s. Most of what he did was remote, brick-wall stuff where the bulk of the work in the interview was done by the person he was interviewing; he was a real lightweight even by Cinci local news standards.
And then he did a puff piece/feature where he went to Cuba. See, Hemmer's Cuban, or at least part of his family is -- I suspect 'Hemmer' is an Anglicization of a more ethnic name -- and some of the family had chosen not to come to the U.S. It was all about how awful life in Cuba was, of course. That won him some kind of award, and after that he was outta Cinci -- not that I blame him for that -- and he became the latest beefcake empty suit puff piece to hit 'the big time.'
I think he's just ambitious, and he'll do anything to get what he wants. Which means he's probably something truly distasteful -- a Republican.
Pine Lake Larry, I've wondered about Hemmer, myself, though not about his sexual orientation.
He started out on the local newscast in Cincinnati, to the best of my knowledge, doing his pretty, empty-suit tapdance back in the early '90s. Most of what he did was remote, brick-wall stuff where the bulk of the work in the interview was done by the person he was interviewing; he was a real lightweight even by Cinci local news standards.
And then he did a puff piece/feature where he went to Cuba. See, Hemmer's Cuban, or at least part of his family is -- I suspect 'Hemmer' is an Anglicization of a more ethnic name -- and some of the family had chosen not to come to the U.S. It was all about how awful life in Cuba was, of course. That won him some kind of award, and after that he was outta Cinci -- not that I blame him for that -- and he became the latest beefcake empty suit puff piece to hit 'the big time.'
I think he's just ambitious, and he'll do anything to get what he wants. Which means he's probably something truly distasteful -- a Republican.
Between the Washington Post and 20/20 is it open season on gay people now?
Erick Holmberg
uhm, I think the GOP, and fundies invited these pathetic outlets to "open season on gays" after all it was them who to the forefront in this election.
Between the Washington Post and 20/20 is it open season on gay people now?
Erick Holmberg
uhm, I think the GOP, and fundies invited these pathetic outlets to "open season on gays" after all it was them who to the forefront in this election.
after all it was them who brought it to the forefront in this election.
after all it was them who brought it to the forefront in this election.
And once one group is signalled out for hate, you can be sure others will follow. This is just the opening salvo.
And once one group is signalled out for hate, you can be sure others will follow. This is just the opening salvo.
But what is happening to America? Why do the gays have to pay for 9/11?
dissenter - 4:54 pm
Because societal oppression is like musical chairs; potential victim groups weave in and out, back and forth. Then some social crisis freezes the music and the dancers. It's time to open a big ol' can of Whupass, and devil take the hindmost.
Being the intelligent, moral, complex, discerning society that we are, being kicked hard and sneaky on 9/11 made us see red. It didn't take long for our masters to reach for the industrial-size can of Whupass. The idea was to spoon-feed that ratbastard Osama, but as it turns out, that was another circle of Musical Chairs-- so we spoon-fed Saddam & Sons instead.
But Whupass doesn't save, and once you open up a tub Yahoo nature abhors saving or wasting it. So why not enact a perverse, even blasphemous, parody of the Miracle of the Loaves & Fishes, and force-feed leftover Whupass to the multitudes. And the most vulnerable multitudes have to open widest. It just leaves high-minded, righteous folks feeling-- well, more satisfied, somehow.
But what is happening to America? Why do the gays have to pay for 9/11?
dissenter - 4:54 pm
Because societal oppression is like musical chairs; potential victim groups weave in and out, back and forth. Then some social crisis freezes the music and the dancers. It's time to open a big ol' can of Whupass, and devil take the hindmost.
Being the intelligent, moral, complex, discerning society that we are, being kicked hard and sneaky on 9/11 made us see red. It didn't take long for our masters to reach for the industrial-size can of Whupass. The idea was to spoon-feed that ratbastard Osama, but as it turns out, that was another circle of Musical Chairs-- so we spoon-fed Saddam & Sons instead.
But Whupass doesn't save, and once you open up a tub Yahoo nature abhors saving or wasting it. So why not enact a perverse, even blasphemous, parody of the Miracle of the Loaves & Fishes, and force-feed leftover Whupass to the multitudes. And the most vulnerable multitudes have to open widest. It just leaves high-minded, righteous folks feeling-- well, more satisfied, somehow.
The 20/20 piece was extremely slanted. Vargas did bother to interview a specialist describing violence and meth addiction, but not one minute is spent talking to anyone in the field about McKinney's obvious internal conflicts about his sexuality. That may have shed light on his self-loathing which may have played a role in how savagely he treated Shepard.
After the piece you are left with more questions than answers, but it is clear from the outset that the goal is to "prove" it was not a hate crime, no matter how much of the other information equally muddies the waters.
Vargas also speculates that Shepard might have been HIV+, depressed and on drugs -- subliminally making it easier for some in the audience to justify that he was already going to die and that this was some kind of mercy killing. Before you think that's preposterous, think again. My brother's girlfriend, a professor at a university in Texas, had to deal with a devoutly religious student that wrote in a paper after viewing "The Laramie Project," that she truly believed that Shepard was a wretched and depraved human being and that what happened to him was a merciful act of God.
There are more like her out there and stories like this just fuel the growing fundamentalist intolerance. It also shows the increasingly sensationalistic and intellectually bankrupt "mainstream journalism" at work.
More here.
The 20/20 piece was extremely slanted. Vargas did bother to interview a specialist describing violence and meth addiction, but not one minute is spent talking to anyone in the field about McKinney's obvious internal conflicts about his sexuality. That may have shed light on his self-loathing which may have played a role in how savagely he treated Shepard.
After the piece you are left with more questions than answers, but it is clear from the outset that the goal is to "prove" it was not a hate crime, no matter how much of the other information equally muddies the waters.
Vargas also speculates that Shepard might have been HIV+, depressed and on drugs -- subliminally making it easier for some in the audience to justify that he was already going to die and that this was some kind of mercy killing. Before you think that's preposterous, think again. My brother's girlfriend, a professor at a university in Texas, had to deal with a devoutly religious student that wrote in a paper after viewing "The Laramie Project," that she truly believed that Shepard was a wretched and depraved human being and that what happened to him was a merciful act of God.
There are more like her out there and stories like this just fuel the growing fundamentalist intolerance. It also shows the increasingly sensationalistic and intellectually bankrupt "mainstream journalism" at work.
More here.
This is the letter I sent to 2020/ABC:
I was shocked to learn that the two men who murdered Matt Shepard are still alive. Somehow I had thought that they had both been sentenced to death. Two consecutive life sentences seems like awfully light punishment for what they did. Our justice system is out of control when people can get away with a crime like that. Furthermore, I thought they looked rather healthy and happy in the interview. I was disgusted. It goes to show you that prisons today are little more than vacation resorts. Should taxpayers be paying for rest and relaxation for criminals? Thank you for bringing this travesty of justice to the attention of the nation.
This is the letter I sent to 2020/ABC:
I was shocked to learn that the two men who murdered Matt Shepard are still alive. Somehow I had thought that they had both been sentenced to death. Two consecutive life sentences seems like awfully light punishment for what they did. Our justice system is out of control when people can get away with a crime like that. Furthermore, I thought they looked rather healthy and happy in the interview. I was disgusted. It goes to show you that prisons today are little more than vacation resorts. Should taxpayers be paying for rest and relaxation for criminals? Thank you for bringing this travesty of justice to the attention of the nation.
Plus, I seriously want to punch John Stossel in the face. Who's with me?
Charlotte Smith (nee Beavers) - 5:35 pm
You punch him in the face while I fire up the wood chipper.
Plus, I seriously want to punch John Stossel in the face. Who's with me?
Charlotte Smith (nee Beavers) - 5:35 pm
You punch him in the face while I fire up the wood chipper.
Little Brother, you have quite a way with words. Whupass, heh.
Little Brother, you have quite a way with words. Whupass, heh.
You punch him in the face while I fire up the wood chipper. LOL. Let us know how he turns out as fertilizer.
You punch him in the face while I fire up the wood chipper. LOL. Let us know how he turns out as fertilizer.
Do you think Bill Hemmer is gay?
both he & anderson cooper have REEEEAL PRETTY MOUTHS.
Do you think Bill Hemmer is gay?
both he & anderson cooper have REEEEAL PRETTY MOUTHS.
both he & anderson cooper have REEEEAL PRETTY MOUTHS. Little brother -you got more room in that wood chipper?
both he & anderson cooper have REEEEAL PRETTY MOUTHS. Little brother -you got more room in that wood chipper?
I don't know about Greeks being enlightened or if they just had a better rapport with what is going on in nature. Anyone who has ever raised animals knows that there will be homosexuality, bisexuality and asexuality in all herds. It's part of nature. I don't see why some people have a hard time with that.
I don't know about Greeks being enlightened or if they just had a better rapport with what is going on in nature. Anyone who has ever raised animals knows that there will be homosexuality, bisexuality and asexuality in all herds. It's part of nature. I don't see why some people have a hard time with that.
I don't know about Hemmer but Michael Musto has been tracking Shepard Smith's pub-crawling in the West Village and Chelsea for some time now.
I don't know about Hemmer but Michael Musto has been tracking Shepard Smith's pub-crawling in the West Village and Chelsea for some time now.
a rude joke: "Where do Hemeroids come from? Planet Hemmer."
A lot of this ABC stuff seems to be debunking of Matthew Shepard as an icon of a victim of Homophobia.
As a native southerner, I know that history can be rewritten endlessly; the current idealization of the rebels is only a dim echo of the romanticized rot in Southern textbooks of my youth. Then, slaves were happy, all southerners loyal to the confederacy, all yankees dangeous, ignorant invaders...
ANd Ms. Mitchell's novel and Mr. Selznick's movie only solidified the false history.
That the right would need to recast Shepard as somehow complicit, or at fault, should be no surprize.
a rude joke: "Where do Hemeroids come from? Planet Hemmer."
A lot of this ABC stuff seems to be debunking of Matthew Shepard as an icon of a victim of Homophobia.
As a native southerner, I know that history can be rewritten endlessly; the current idealization of the rebels is only a dim echo of the romanticized rot in Southern textbooks of my youth. Then, slaves were happy, all southerners loyal to the confederacy, all yankees dangeous, ignorant invaders...
ANd Ms. Mitchell's novel and Mr. Selznick's movie only solidified the false history.
That the right would need to recast Shepard as somehow complicit, or at fault, should be no surprize.
uh, that's 'surprise', we're having a children's booksigning, and it's nuts in trendy Blue Ridge ga.
Is it going to take the ashes of 6 million of us before we have equal rights? My gay bros and bras, buy yourself some assault weapons. Let's not make it easy for them, Ok? If I have to go, I plan to go kicking and blasting.
uh, that's 'surprise', we're having a children's booksigning, and it's nuts in trendy Blue Ridge ga.
Is it going to take the ashes of 6 million of us before we have equal rights? My gay bros and bras, buy yourself some assault weapons. Let's not make it easy for them, Ok? If I have to go, I plan to go kicking and blasting.
OMG i tried to read thru the 20.20 messageboards & its all "sexual perverts, babykillers" etc etc etc.
this is supposed to be 20/20 from ABCnews, not the freeps!!!!!!!
OMG i tried to read thru the 20.20 messageboards & its all "sexual perverts, babykillers" etc etc etc.
this is supposed to be 20/20 from ABCnews, not the freeps!!!!!!!
I'm sure www.godhatesfags.com will post a link to the 20/20 story.
What is Vargas's point? That lynching is less bad if there is a robbery planned with the crime? I would be surprised if lynch mobs felt stealing their victim's money is going a little too far. They are Christians after all.
In honor of the Bush election I think we should start holiday season gay lynching. Maybe a holiday stoning of a navel exposing teenage girl too. Sell rocks to stone a hussy at community events. Proceeds go to the local churches.
I also think we should appoint legal guardians to all fetuses. Especially those of victims of sexual assault and incest as those are highly likely of being aborted. We can't trust women to make the right decision. Rape victims should be sent to the local Baptist church for proper pro-life counseling and fetal protection guardians.
Think this might get the attention of "security moms"?
I'm sure www.godhatesfags.com will post a link to the 20/20 story.
What is Vargas's point? That lynching is less bad if there is a robbery planned with the crime? I would be surprised if lynch mobs felt stealing their victim's money is going a little too far. They are Christians after all.
In honor of the Bush election I think we should start holiday season gay lynching. Maybe a holiday stoning of a navel exposing teenage girl too. Sell rocks to stone a hussy at community events. Proceeds go to the local churches.
I also think we should appoint legal guardians to all fetuses. Especially those of victims of sexual assault and incest as those are highly likely of being aborted. We can't trust women to make the right decision. Rape victims should be sent to the local Baptist church for proper pro-life counseling and fetal protection guardians.
Think this might get the attention of "security moms"?
Peaches - Thing was, I didn't really know the details of what the sultan's sex slaves would be getting up to. But that's where my imagination was trending, obviously.
Peaches - Thing was, I didn't really know the details of what the sultan's sex slaves would be getting up to. But that's where my imagination was trending, obviously.
I could die - I just posted that comment on the wrong thread. Oy, what a comment to post on the wrong thread.
**blush**
I could die - I just posted that comment on the wrong thread. Oy, what a comment to post on the wrong thread.
**blush**
What's next, a revisionist look at the civil rights movement? "The human side of Lester Maddox"? Did governor Maddox have a troubled youth?
What's next, a revisionist look at the civil rights movement? "The human side of Lester Maddox"? Did governor Maddox have a troubled youth?
Ah, Lester Maddow was just sort of an Archie Bunker type guy. Nothing wrong with that. Now excuse me. I have to get to my porn collection.
Ah, Lester Maddow was just sort of an Archie Bunker type guy. Nothing wrong with that. Now excuse me. I have to get to my porn collection.
If you're all just going to walk to the ovens like the Jews did, then I'm out of here. There is only us. The liberals will be too busy saving themselves. The wingers will look at them rounding you up with reptile eyes. The fundies will declare you evil and will instigate it. Buy yourself some weapons and blow there heads off before they can march you away one by one like they did the Jews.
If you're all just going to walk to the ovens like the Jews did, then I'm out of here. There is only us. The liberals will be too busy saving themselves. The wingers will look at them rounding you up with reptile eyes. The fundies will declare you evil and will instigate it. Buy yourself some weapons and blow there heads off before they can march you away one by one like they did the Jews.
Stop looking at me like I'm crazy and prepare to protect yourselves.
Stop looking at me like I'm crazy and prepare to protect yourselves.
Incognito-
...and blow there heads... At least two problems with that phrase.
Incognito-
...and blow there heads... At least two problems with that phrase.
n69n - Wow, there are some very disturbed people out there. They actually believe that shit about gay marriage leading to the criminalization of quoting the bible.
What the fuck? They actually believe that shit?
Now I am worried.
n69n - Wow, there are some very disturbed people out there. They actually believe that shit about gay marriage leading to the criminalization of quoting the bible.
What the fuck? They actually believe that shit?
Now I am worried.
Tena you're a perv.
Tena you're a perv.
i don't even know what to say, this makes me so sick. i am so glad i did not see the program in question (or pogram?)
the most essential thing to remember is this:
it has NOT always been this way here. it has NOT. things were different before, and so they can be different again tomorrow.
it's like living in a bad movie.
-L.
i don't even know what to say, this makes me so sick. i am so glad i did not see the program in question (or pogram?)
the most essential thing to remember is this:
it has NOT always been this way here. it has NOT. things were different before, and so they can be different again tomorrow.
it's like living in a bad movie.
-L.
hecate - "And, bang! Just like that, in one fell swoop, Canada becomes the hero of the entire free world!"
And then, in another fell swoop, is obliterated by US nuclear missiles.
hecate - "And, bang! Just like that, in one fell swoop, Canada becomes the hero of the entire free world!"
And then, in another fell swoop, is obliterated by US nuclear missiles.
Christian fundamentalists have to remove us because what's not obviously apparent now but will be is that we prove there is not a god. They will murder us all before they'll allow that.
Christian fundamentalists have to remove us because what's not obviously apparent now but will be is that we prove there is not a god. They will murder us all before they'll allow that.
we prove there is not a god
Wha???
You do no such thing.
we prove there is not a god
Wha???
You do no such thing.
In my next life I don't want to be a gay liberal humanist atheist. I don't know what I did that was so bad in my prior one that I deserve this.
In my next life I don't want to be a gay liberal humanist atheist. I don't know what I did that was so bad in my prior one that I deserve this.
Why does god hate gay folks?
Why does god hate gay folks?
Mr. Bill, once again you've hit the nail on the head. I remember reading how the north lost the incentive to help the freed blacks because of the incessant hype from southerners as the true victims of the war. When notherners would vacation in the south, they "romanticized" the images of blacks working in the fields as sharecroppers as "picturesque". The same's going to happen to gays now, just watch. The stereotyped gays as your flaming hairdresser, etc, will be allowed but under no circumstances are they to given any serious consideration in society, as long as they know their place.
Mr. Bill, once again you've hit the nail on the head. I remember reading how the north lost the incentive to help the freed blacks because of the incessant hype from southerners as the true victims of the war. When notherners would vacation in the south, they "romanticized" the images of blacks working in the fields as sharecroppers as "picturesque". The same's going to happen to gays now, just watch. The stereotyped gays as your flaming hairdresser, etc, will be allowed but under no circumstances are they to given any serious consideration in society, as long as they know their place.
Gays do prove there isn't a god.
Gays do prove there isn't a god.
Wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah
Wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah
Gays do prove there isn't a god.
Because God (according to the fundies) hates fags, and therefore why would he make them or allow them to exist?
Is that how?
Gays do prove there isn't a god.
Because God (according to the fundies) hates fags, and therefore why would he make them or allow them to exist?
Is that how?
I really didn't know the details either; it was a sort of skeleton of a distant fantasy, and at 10 I hadn't the slightest idea of what a fantasy was. I was dressing up my dolls in weirdo scarves and veils and feeling a funny feeling and standing back as much as a 10-yr old can and questioning: " HUH?!". Collective unconscious resonants there clearly.
I think that I'm preaching to the choir, but I believe it's important as adults, whether it's a left or right tidal pull, if we're aware that it is a indeed a tidal pull, we can question the impetus and we can change the flow. This relates to RMJ's post (BYW: Thank you gentle man).
I really didn't know the details either; it was a sort of skeleton of a distant fantasy, and at 10 I hadn't the slightest idea of what a fantasy was. I was dressing up my dolls in weirdo scarves and veils and feeling a funny feeling and standing back as much as a 10-yr old can and questioning: " HUH?!". Collective unconscious resonants there clearly.
I think that I'm preaching to the choir, but I believe it's important as adults, whether it's a left or right tidal pull, if we're aware that it is a indeed a tidal pull, we can question the impetus and we can change the flow. This relates to RMJ's post (BYW: Thank you gentle man).
If the fundies are trying to convince everyone that god created all, who the hell do they think made the gays then?
If the fundies are trying to convince everyone that god created all, who the hell do they think made the gays then?
Christians have persecuted gays for centuries and we didn't do anything wrong.
Christians have persecuted gays for centuries and we didn't do anything wrong.
Next week on 20/20,
Emmitt Till, was really killed because he was mouthy.
Not because he was black.
Oh, and Byron Dellabeckwith tells Elizabeth Vargas he killed Medgar Evars in a hunting accident.
...Chris Vlasto and Jon Stossel have been on the shit list for many a year with me.
Next week on 20/20,
Emmitt Till, was really killed because he was mouthy.
Not because he was black.
Oh, and Byron Dellabeckwith tells Elizabeth Vargas he killed Medgar Evars in a hunting accident.
...Chris Vlasto and Jon Stossel have been on the shit list for many a year with me.
In my next life I don't want to be a gay liberal humanist atheist.
Well, you don't have to be an atheist in this life.
Atheism is an incoherent philosophical position, because God is an incoherent concept. To deny an incoherent thesis is itself incoherent.
SO, theism and atheism actually make no sense.
Bling bling!
In my next life I don't want to be a gay liberal humanist atheist.
Well, you don't have to be an atheist in this life.
Atheism is an incoherent philosophical position, because God is an incoherent concept. To deny an incoherent thesis is itself incoherent.
SO, theism and atheism actually make no sense.
Bling bling!
Winston thought for a moment, then pulled the speakwrite towards him and began dictating in Big Brother's familiar style: a style at once military and pedantic, and, because of a trick of asking questions and then promptly answering them ('What lessons do we learn from this fact, comrades? The lesson -- which is also one of the fundamental principles of Ingsoc -- that,' etc., etc.), easy to imitate.
those who fail to remember the past are doomed to repeat it
Winston thought for a moment, then pulled the speakwrite towards him and began dictating in Big Brother's familiar style: a style at once military and pedantic, and, because of a trick of asking questions and then promptly answering them ('What lessons do we learn from this fact, comrades? The lesson -- which is also one of the fundamental principles of Ingsoc -- that,' etc., etc.), easy to imitate.
those who fail to remember the past are doomed to repeat it
it has NOT always been this way here. it has NOT. things were different before, and so they can be different again tomorrow.
Librarian
Librarian, get real. You must not live in the south. It HAS always been this way. The same people who caused the Civil War are still here. They haven't changed. And now they're really mobilized (to quote Little Brother) to whupass on the rest of the nation for all the indignities they've suffered since.
Incog, I love your idea of blowing their heads off. It's a nice fantasy.
it has NOT always been this way here. it has NOT. things were different before, and so they can be different again tomorrow.
Librarian
Librarian, get real. You must not live in the south. It HAS always been this way. The same people who caused the Civil War are still here. They haven't changed. And now they're really mobilized (to quote Little Brother) to whupass on the rest of the nation for all the indignities they've suffered since.
Incog, I love your idea of blowing their heads off. It's a nice fantasy.
"...because of a trick of asking questions and then promptly answering them...."
I knew I'd met Rumsfeld somewhere before!
"...because of a trick of asking questions and then promptly answering them...."
I knew I'd met Rumsfeld somewhere before!
I've done the calculations. Between half a billion and 1 billion gays have suffered over the last 2000 years. In the hierarchy of human suffering, (if there has to be such a category) we're on top. And this is because of Christianity as we've known it.
I've done the calculations. Between half a billion and 1 billion gays have suffered over the last 2000 years. In the hierarchy of human suffering, (if there has to be such a category) we're on top. And this is because of Christianity as we've known it.
Pine Lake Larry, you need to get serious.
Pine Lake Larry, you need to get serious.
In the hierarchy of human suffering, (if there has to be such a category) we're on top.
Uh, this is pretty insane.
What about women in general?
Also, why is it because of Christianity, and not just done in the name of Christianity?
In the hierarchy of human suffering, (if there has to be such a category) we're on top.
Uh, this is pretty insane.
What about women in general?
Also, why is it because of Christianity, and not just done in the name of Christianity?
Attaturk nailed it.
.
Attaturk nailed it.
.
Robert M. Jeffers, and I don't appreciate you trying to make light of it, either.
Robert M. Jeffers, and I don't appreciate you trying to make light of it, either.
Robert M. Jeffers, and I don't appreciate you trying to make light of it, either.
Huh?
I suspect a name-stealing troll is trying to stir something up.
If not, then just: Huh?
Robert M. Jeffers, and I don't appreciate you trying to make light of it, either.
Huh?
I suspect a name-stealing troll is trying to stir something up.
If not, then just: Huh?
Robert M. Jeffers, and I don't appreciate you trying to make light of it, either.
Quit whining.
Robert M. Jeffers, and I don't appreciate you trying to make light of it, either.
Quit whining.
Also, why is it because of Christianity, and not just done in the name of Christianity?
Stoopid
It's the whole concept of monotheism.
Also, why is it because of Christianity, and not just done in the name of Christianity?
Stoopid
It's the whole concept of monotheism.
Quit whining.
Stoopid
Fuck off.
Quit whining.
Stoopid
Fuck off.
we prove there is not a god
Wha???
You do no such thing.
Sucka MC
I do not and never have hated or reviled my gay brothers and sisters. I am just a human. How can I be more compassionate than a Creator (God)? If God truly existed, he could not be less loving than I, could he/she/it?
Seems to me, there cannot be a God, at least not like the one the hateful Xtians and Muslims and other sects who disparage my gay brothers and sisters follow. That MUST>/b> be a false god.
I, myself, have no belief in a god.
we prove there is not a god
Wha???
You do no such thing.
Sucka MC
I do not and never have hated or reviled my gay brothers and sisters. I am just a human. How can I be more compassionate than a Creator (God)? If God truly existed, he could not be less loving than I, could he/she/it?
Seems to me, there cannot be a God, at least not like the one the hateful Xtians and Muslims and other sects who disparage my gay brothers and sisters follow. That MUST>/b> be a false god.
I, myself, have no belief in a god.
Quit whining.
Stoopid
Fuck off.
Incognito
Nope, YOU fuck off!
Ha!
You got SERVED.
Quit whining.
Stoopid
Fuck off.
Incognito
Nope, YOU fuck off!
Ha!
You got SERVED.
Sorry for the tag goof.
Sorry for the tag goof.
Incog, what have you been drinking? Half a billion? Hahahahaha. We haven't been persecuted quite that long. The Catholic Church at one time had ceremonies to bless gay unions, at least in certain areas. This info comes from Sully's book, so take it with a grain of salt.
Incog, what have you been drinking? Half a billion? Hahahahaha. We haven't been persecuted quite that long. The Catholic Church at one time had ceremonies to bless gay unions, at least in certain areas. This info comes from Sully's book, so take it with a grain of salt.
Larry, as a divorced gay guy (who is taking care of his exwife because she is the mother of my children and has no one else in a health crisis), I feel that the culture is not ready to accept the sort of gay folk I know, who are the backbone of small businesses and churches, who are not noticibly sterotypes, and who are assets to their communities. My kids like 'Will and Grace' but they see that this is not the reality of Gay folks, especially in rural Appalachia.
And as a rural southerner, hell, hillbilly, I know that there is a burning need to see some folk as inferior, as if it makes you feel better. It's on the left as well as right, blue as well as red.
And Incognito, I really feel close to divine or closer to the divine when I'm making love to my boyfriend.
I know intellectually that my ideas about god or the divine are worthless, flawed, and not to be used to hurt others. Maimonides was trying to make this point in the 10th century: that our ideas about the divine are just that,our ideas, and limited in accuracy. It ought to make the religious humble, but it is being used to lord over others, as abusive power tripping. It is bad religion. I'm not a big c christian, and think the organized Church is little more that organized crime: or like Henry Adams heroine in "Democracy": she had stopped attending church because it gave her unchristian feelings.
Larry, as a divorced gay guy (who is taking care of his exwife because she is the mother of my children and has no one else in a health crisis), I feel that the culture is not ready to accept the sort of gay folk I know, who are the backbone of small businesses and churches, who are not noticibly sterotypes, and who are assets to their communities. My kids like 'Will and Grace' but they see that this is not the reality of Gay folks, especially in rural Appalachia.
And as a rural southerner, hell, hillbilly, I know that there is a burning need to see some folk as inferior, as if it makes you feel better. It's on the left as well as right, blue as well as red.
And Incognito, I really feel close to divine or closer to the divine when I'm making love to my boyfriend.
I know intellectually that my ideas about god or the divine are worthless, flawed, and not to be used to hurt others. Maimonides was trying to make this point in the 10th century: that our ideas about the divine are just that,our ideas, and limited in accuracy. It ought to make the religious humble, but it is being used to lord over others, as abusive power tripping. It is bad religion. I'm not a big c christian, and think the organized Church is little more that organized crime: or like Henry Adams heroine in "Democracy": she had stopped attending church because it gave her unchristian feelings.
I think Librarian is right. Look at Spain. It was only about 30 years ago that Franco died. After Franco they've had mostly very conservative governments and in the last election they elected a progressive government. Things can change very quickly.
I think Librarian is right. Look at Spain. It was only about 30 years ago that Franco died. After Franco they've had mostly very conservative governments and in the last election they elected a progressive government. Things can change very quickly.
I suspect a name-stealing troll is trying to stir something up.
If not, then just: Huh?
Robert M. Jeffers
No. This is me Incognito. You know what I think of Christianity and monotheism in general. It has mindlessly caused the suffering of billions over the centuries.
I suspect a name-stealing troll is trying to stir something up.
If not, then just: Huh?
Robert M. Jeffers
No. This is me Incognito. You know what I think of Christianity and monotheism in general. It has mindlessly caused the suffering of billions over the centuries.
I thought the 20/20 piece was tawdry and exploitative, but the re-examination of the "hate crime" paradigm as the explanation for the crime is a welcome development. The re-examination began long before ABC came to the story, and much more responsibly, by JoAnn Wypijewski.
Here's an excerpt from her useful opinion piece in the 11/26 LA Times: "Scrapping over the nature of Shepard's victimhood is the wrong debate. Whatever his killer's degree of homophobia, Shepard is dead. Powerless to restore him, society is obligated to ask what is owed to the living - to gay people, who have suffered ages of abuse, and also criminal defendants. Tinkering with criminal law is a backward step in countering the deep cultural realities of homophobia, racism, sexism. Prosecuting murder as a
hate crime only lets the rest of us think we're off the hook, while it
tramples on justice."
The importance of Wypijewski's is demonstrated by the ignorance of the salient facts of the case displayed by some of the posts here, like this one: "Lawyer trick. The hate crime designation means they will never see the light of day."
In fact, the killing of Shepard was NOT legally designated as a hate crime, so the fact that both McKinney and Henderson are serving double-life-without-parole sentences has nothing to do with the dynanmics of "hate crimes" legislation, which generally are distortions of due process and rules of evidence that real liberals should regard dubiously.
It's not surprising that people have the impression that Shephard's killers were convicted of hate crimes, given the persistent campaign to convince people that the crime proves the necessity of such laws. Hard to explain, then, why without any hate crime laws in place in Wyoming, the killers faced the possibility of the death sentence and accepted the life-without-parole sentences as plea bargains. We can accomplish that WITHOUT hate crime laws, which "trample on the justice, as Wypijewski points out. So explain
to me again why we need them.
I thought the 20/20 piece was tawdry and exploitative, but the re-examination of the "hate crime" paradigm as the explanation for the crime is a welcome development. The re-examination began long before ABC came to the story, and much more responsibly, by JoAnn Wypijewski.
Here's an excerpt from her useful opinion piece in the 11/26 LA Times: "Scrapping over the nature of Shepard's victimhood is the wrong debate. Whatever his killer's degree of homophobia, Shepard is dead. Powerless to restore him, society is obligated to ask what is owed to the living - to gay people, who have suffered ages of abuse, and also criminal defendants. Tinkering with criminal law is a backward step in countering the deep cultural realities of homophobia, racism, sexism. Prosecuting murder as a
hate crime only lets the rest of us think we're off the hook, while it
tramples on justice."
The importance of Wypijewski's is demonstrated by the ignorance of the salient facts of the case displayed by some of the posts here, like this one: "Lawyer trick. The hate crime designation means they will never see the light of day."
In fact, the killing of Shepard was NOT legally designated as a hate crime, so the fact that both McKinney and Henderson are serving double-life-without-parole sentences has nothing to do with the dynanmics of "hate crimes" legislation, which generally are distortions of due process and rules of evidence that real liberals should regard dubiously.
It's not surprising that people have the impression that Shephard's killers were convicted of hate crimes, given the persistent campaign to convince people that the crime proves the necessity of such laws. Hard to explain, then, why without any hate crime laws in place in Wyoming, the killers faced the possibility of the death sentence and accepted the life-without-parole sentences as plea bargains. We can accomplish that WITHOUT hate crime laws, which "trample on the justice, as Wypijewski points out. So explain
to me again why we need them.
Monotheism = killing gay people
???????????
You are RETARDED.
That's the stoopidest thing I've ever heard.
You know what I think of Christianity and monotheism in general. It has mindlessly caused the suffering of billions over the centuries.
Do you have any, like, empirical evidence of this?
Mind you, it's not enough to say that people have been killed or whatever IN THE NAME OF Christianity/monotheism; you have to prove that without Christianity/monotheism, it never would have happened.
GOOD LUCK.
Monotheism = killing gay people
???????????
You are RETARDED.
That's the stoopidest thing I've ever heard.
You know what I think of Christianity and monotheism in general. It has mindlessly caused the suffering of billions over the centuries.
Do you have any, like, empirical evidence of this?
Mind you, it's not enough to say that people have been killed or whatever IN THE NAME OF Christianity/monotheism; you have to prove that without Christianity/monotheism, it never would have happened.
GOOD LUCK.
Mr. Bill-
Wonderful post.
Mr. Bill-
Wonderful post.
No. This is me Incognito. You know what I think of Christianity and monotheism in general. It has mindlessly caused the suffering of billions over the centuries.
And once again, I am responsible for all of humanity, and all of Christianity?
Sorry, I decline the offer of the position of whipping boy for you. Take my name in vain all you want. You attribute to me thoughts I don't think, feelings I don't have, and ideas I've never considered valid.
Feel free to fill in the blanks as you wish. Doesn't make any of them correct, or challenge me in the least.
Your identity has nothing to do with mine.
No. This is me Incognito. You know what I think of Christianity and monotheism in general. It has mindlessly caused the suffering of billions over the centuries.
And once again, I am responsible for all of humanity, and all of Christianity?
Sorry, I decline the offer of the position of whipping boy for you. Take my name in vain all you want. You attribute to me thoughts I don't think, feelings I don't have, and ideas I've never considered valid.
Feel free to fill in the blanks as you wish. Doesn't make any of them correct, or challenge me in the least.
Your identity has nothing to do with mine.
Please read no further if you want to keep your blood pressure down. I've visited Freeperland to see their take on the 20/20 episode. Some are more concerned that the two killers are meth heads. Anyway, here are a few choice ones:
To: foolscap
I always objected to the way the media lionized Matthew Shepard as "crucified." They tried to draw parallels between a man cruising for gay sex who ran into thugs and Jesus Christ.
2 posted on 11/26/2004 4:44:19 AM PST by SkyPilot
To: foolscap
Understandable. Looking at video of those two guys after their arrest, they didn't strike me as that much far removed from flamer status as the victim.
25 posted on 11/26/2004 7:13:00 AM PST by bullseye876 ('Hope allah's wearin' Kevlar (tm))
To: foolscap
Yes --- Shepard apparently was just a gay hooker --- trading drugs for sex. Female prostitutes also don't usually live very long and die from violence -- why should gay prostitutes believe that lifestyle should be made completely safe for them?
27 posted on 11/26/2004 8:02:54 AM PST by FITZ
Pam's House Blend
Please read no further if you want to keep your blood pressure down. I've visited Freeperland to see their take on the 20/20 episode. Some are more concerned that the two killers are meth heads. Anyway, here are a few choice ones:
To: foolscap
I always objected to the way the media lionized Matthew Shepard as "crucified." They tried to draw parallels between a man cruising for gay sex who ran into thugs and Jesus Christ.
2 posted on 11/26/2004 4:44:19 AM PST by SkyPilot
To: foolscap
Understandable. Looking at video of those two guys after their arrest, they didn't strike me as that much far removed from flamer status as the victim.
25 posted on 11/26/2004 7:13:00 AM PST by bullseye876 ('Hope allah's wearin' Kevlar (tm))
To: foolscap
Yes --- Shepard apparently was just a gay hooker --- trading drugs for sex. Female prostitutes also don't usually live very long and die from violence -- why should gay prostitutes believe that lifestyle should be made completely safe for them?
27 posted on 11/26/2004 8:02:54 AM PST by FITZ
Pam's House Blend
Pine Lake Larry, the first person executed in the New World was gay. "Sodomy" Laws were used to send a chilling message to gays that there was something wrong with us. There was something wrong, all right. And that was the majority heterosexual's belief system. There is not a god and there is not an afterlife.
Pine Lake Larry, the first person executed in the New World was gay. "Sodomy" Laws were used to send a chilling message to gays that there was something wrong with us. There was something wrong, all right. And that was the majority heterosexual's belief system. There is not a god and there is not an afterlife.
6,000 people may have died in Fallujah
Aid finally reaches Fallujah civilians : A spokesman said that the organisation fears that more than 6,000 people may have died in the U.S. Offensive and that thousands of families are in bad need of assistance.
http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-
bin...service_id=5853
6,000 people may have died in Fallujah
Aid finally reaches Fallujah civilians : A spokesman said that the organisation fears that more than 6,000 people may have died in the U.S. Offensive and that thousands of families are in bad need of assistance.
http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-
bin...service_id=5853
I'm not [saying] half a billion gays were murdered. The heteros didn't have to do that. All they had to do was execute one of us occasionally using their "Sodomy" laws (taken right out of the bible) to keep the rest of us down.
I'm not [saying] half a billion gays were murdered. The heteros didn't have to do that. All they had to do was execute one of us occasionally using their "Sodomy" laws (taken right out of the bible) to keep the rest of us down.
Am I remembering this wrong?
I'm pretty sure the defense offered up by the killers in their trial was that they had succumbed to a "gay panic" that drove them to murder.
Not temporary insanity due to methamphetamine usage. "Gay panic."
Was this even mentioned in the 20/20 piece?
Am I remembering this wrong?
I'm pretty sure the defense offered up by the killers in their trial was that they had succumbed to a "gay panic" that drove them to murder.
Not temporary insanity due to methamphetamine usage. "Gay panic."
Was this even mentioned in the 20/20 piece?
There is not a god and there is not an afterlife.
You got that from anti-sodomy laws?
Man, you engage in some spectacularly fucked-up reasoning, don't you?
Retard.
There is not a god and there is not an afterlife.
You got that from anti-sodomy laws?
Man, you engage in some spectacularly fucked-up reasoning, don't you?
Retard.
Dear Stoopid,
One doesn't have to prove that killing wouldn't have happened even without Christianity/momotheism.
What we should point out is that people who follow the precepts of Christianity should have seen evil for what it was and worked to vanquish it. It doesn't happen this way.
Christians, when confronted with evil, are no better at recognizing and vanquishing it than are pagans or nonbelievers.
In other words, the religion that follows the word of the all forgiving and loving Jesus is somewhat of a failure. Most people are not able to conquer their baser instincts, even when religion is there to guide them. Do you want examples?
In my opinion, religion, except for its influence on art, music, architecture, is somewhat of a failure when it comes to encouraging people to follow their "better angels."
Dear Stoopid,
One doesn't have to prove that killing wouldn't have happened even without Christianity/momotheism.
What we should point out is that people who follow the precepts of Christianity should have seen evil for what it was and worked to vanquish it. It doesn't happen this way.
Christians, when confronted with evil, are no better at recognizing and vanquishing it than are pagans or nonbelievers.
In other words, the religion that follows the word of the all forgiving and loving Jesus is somewhat of a failure. Most people are not able to conquer their baser instincts, even when religion is there to guide them. Do you want examples?
In my opinion, religion, except for its influence on art, music, architecture, is somewhat of a failure when it comes to encouraging people to follow their "better angels."
I'm pretty sure the defense offered up by the killers in their trial was that they had succumbed to a "gay panic" that drove them to murder.
Not temporary insanity due to methamphetamine usage. "Gay panic."
Was this even mentioned in the 20/20 piece?
This wouldn't really bear on the truth of the matter, though, unless you believe that the fact that Mark Geragos argued in S. Petersen's trial that Laci was killed by Satanists makes that any more likely of a possibility.
Lawyers say whatever they have to in order to get their client an acquital.
I'm pretty sure the defense offered up by the killers in their trial was that they had succumbed to a "gay panic" that drove them to murder.
Not temporary insanity due to methamphetamine usage. "Gay panic."
Was this even mentioned in the 20/20 piece?
This wouldn't really bear on the truth of the matter, though, unless you believe that the fact that Mark Geragos argued in S. Petersen's trial that Laci was killed by Satanists makes that any more likely of a possibility.
Lawyers say whatever they have to in order to get their client an acquital.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa - The first person executed in the New World was gay?
Prove it. I want a source for that.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa - The first person executed in the New World was gay?
Prove it. I want a source for that.
The Catholic Church at one time had ceremonies to bless gay unions, at least in certain areas. This info comes from Sully's book, so take it with a grain of salt.
This is true... In some catholic churches they did this. At least in CA.
The Catholic Church at one time had ceremonies to bless gay unions, at least in certain areas. This info comes from Sully's book, so take it with a grain of salt.
This is true... In some catholic churches they did this. At least in CA.
a milder post from the 20/20 messageboard
mcnabbmcnow Re: Re: Bush about to undo Hate Crimes Laws - ABC Help
replyreply
Posted: Nov 27, 2004 03:27 PM
43 Posts
Registered: Oct 14, 2004
I wouldn't refer to the 11 Amendments as anti-gay. I would prefer the term pro-family Amendments.
The story is a heck of a lot more believable from ABC because they are known as the most left wing network by most that constantly airs pro-gay themes on the news. Heck, they put "Ellen" on television.
a milder post from the 20/20 messageboard
mcnabbmcnow Re: Re: Bush about to undo Hate Crimes Laws - ABC Help
replyreply
Posted: Nov 27, 2004 03:27 PM
43 Posts
Registered: Oct 14, 2004
I wouldn't refer to the 11 Amendments as anti-gay. I would prefer the term pro-family Amendments.
The story is a heck of a lot more believable from ABC because they are known as the most left wing network by most that constantly airs pro-gay themes on the news. Heck, they put "Ellen" on television.
Not to be pedantic, but I presume Incognito means the first European killed in the New World after the landing of Columbus? Must have been some bigot Indians and Vikings, eh?
Not to be pedantic, but I presume Incognito means the first European killed in the New World after the landing of Columbus? Must have been some bigot Indians and Vikings, eh?
In other words, the religion that follows the word of the all forgiving and loving Jesus is somewhat of a failure.
Maybe. But this is not the claim that was made. The claim was that Christianity/monotheism was the CAUSE of gay-hating.
Christians, when confronted with evil, are no better at recognizing and vanquishing it than are pagans or nonbelievers.
Also probably true; but they are also probably no WORSE at recognizing/vanquishing evil.
My point is that people are going to hate and kill whoever they want; they might use religion to justify it, but that is very different than religion being the cause of it.
So yeah, if you're going to say that X caused Y, in most cases* you need to explain how Y wouldn't have occurred in the absence of X (or any other cause).
* Note I said MOST, not all cases; there are probably counterexamples.
In other words, the religion that follows the word of the all forgiving and loving Jesus is somewhat of a failure.
Maybe. But this is not the claim that was made. The claim was that Christianity/monotheism was the CAUSE of gay-hating.
Christians, when confronted with evil, are no better at recognizing and vanquishing it than are pagans or nonbelievers.
Also probably true; but they are also probably no WORSE at recognizing/vanquishing evil.
My point is that people are going to hate and kill whoever they want; they might use religion to justify it, but that is very different than religion being the cause of it.
So yeah, if you're going to say that X caused Y, in most cases* you need to explain how Y wouldn't have occurred in the absence of X (or any other cause).
* Note I said MOST, not all cases; there are probably counterexamples.
Incognito, I'm not going to get serious about blowing someone's head off. I've never held a gun in my life, unlike you with your military service.
Bill, wow, now I've got to get up to Blue Ridge to see you. Is that far from Blairsville?
Jerry, the south hasn't changed in hundreds of years. I don't see it happening soon.
Incognito, I'm not going to get serious about blowing someone's head off. I've never held a gun in my life, unlike you with your military service.
Bill, wow, now I've got to get up to Blue Ridge to see you. Is that far from Blairsville?
Jerry, the south hasn't changed in hundreds of years. I don't see it happening soon.
"The Catholic Church at one time had ceremonies to bless gay unions, at least in certain areas. This info comes from Sully's book, so take it with a grain of salt."
Sully stole that insight from the late John Boswell. No salt required.
"The Catholic Church at one time had ceremonies to bless gay unions, at least in certain areas. This info comes from Sully's book, so take it with a grain of salt."
Sully stole that insight from the late John Boswell. No salt required.
Incog, the best I can offer is the weak form of 'St. Anslem's proof'- insofar a some folks act as it the concept 'God' is real, it is a reality. In the way people act as fifchakras are real or auras are real. It is part of their behaviours. (the strong form says, more or less, that humans could not come up with the idea of God, so he must be real).
I know my ideas are just ideas. I don't know if I have an immortal part or not, but if I do, it is immortal, and I don't have to worry about it.
This life is the deal. The use of god/gods to gain power over others is bad, in my opinion. But all too human.
Incog, the best I can offer is the weak form of 'St. Anslem's proof'- insofar a some folks act as it the concept 'God' is real, it is a reality. In the way people act as fifchakras are real or auras are real. It is part of their behaviours. (the strong form says, more or less, that humans could not come up with the idea of God, so he must be real).
I know my ideas are just ideas. I don't know if I have an immortal part or not, but if I do, it is immortal, and I don't have to worry about it.
This life is the deal. The use of god/gods to gain power over others is bad, in my opinion. But all too human.
David E-That's Boswell of "The Kindness of Strangers"?
David E-That's Boswell of "The Kindness of Strangers"?
n69n,
Reckon why "pro gay people living their lives without fear of getting their heads stomped in" is considered "anti-family"?
n69n,
Reckon why "pro gay people living their lives without fear of getting their heads stomped in" is considered "anti-family"?
Mr. Bill,
Terry Pratchett put forth the same idea. Gods only exist if people believe, really believe, in them. Therefor, when you die, you go where you think you're supposed to go. If you think you're supposed to go to paradise, that's where you go. If you think you're supposed to go to hell, same thing.
That's why it's vitally important to kill missionaries on sight, he says.
Mr. Bill,
Terry Pratchett put forth the same idea. Gods only exist if people believe, really believe, in them. Therefor, when you die, you go where you think you're supposed to go. If you think you're supposed to go to paradise, that's where you go. If you think you're supposed to go to hell, same thing.
That's why it's vitally important to kill missionaries on sight, he says.
the strong form says, more or less, that humans could not come up with the idea of God, so he must be real).
This isn't precisely what Anselm argues.
The argument is that the concept of God is such that his non-existence is a conceptual impossibility. SOmething like this:
God, by definition/conceptual truth, is a necessarily perfect being.
If God did not exist, then he would not be perfect, for a God that exists is better than a God that doesn't exist.
But a non-perfect God is a contradiction in terms, since God, by def., is necessarily perfect.
Or something along those lines.
It's not a very good argument, really.
the strong form says, more or less, that humans could not come up with the idea of God, so he must be real).
This isn't precisely what Anselm argues.
The argument is that the concept of God is such that his non-existence is a conceptual impossibility. SOmething like this:
God, by definition/conceptual truth, is a necessarily perfect being.
If God did not exist, then he would not be perfect, for a God that exists is better than a God that doesn't exist.
But a non-perfect God is a contradiction in terms, since God, by def., is necessarily perfect.
Or something along those lines.
It's not a very good argument, really.
Maybe. But this is not the claim that was made. The claim was that Christianity/monotheism was the CAUSE of gay-hating. Stoopid
I don't know the bible, but from what I've read about it, aren't there passage[s] in it that say that homosexuality is an abomination to God?
If this is correct, then that would be a direct Biblical cause to justify hatred toward gays.
If there isn't a justification in the Bible, then why do people like Falwell and Robertson always saying that gays bring the wrath of god on them?
Maybe. But this is not the claim that was made. The claim was that Christianity/monotheism was the CAUSE of gay-hating. Stoopid
I don't know the bible, but from what I've read about it, aren't there passage[s] in it that say that homosexuality is an abomination to God?
If this is correct, then that would be a direct Biblical cause to justify hatred toward gays.
If there isn't a justification in the Bible, then why do people like Falwell and Robertson always saying that gays bring the wrath of god on them?
n69n,
That's from the 20/20 message board? Amazing. Sick and amazing. Hatred really is mainstream now, isn't it? Didn't take very long to bubble up to the surface, all this hatred, did it?
n69n,
That's from the 20/20 message board? Amazing. Sick and amazing. Hatred really is mainstream now, isn't it? Didn't take very long to bubble up to the surface, all this hatred, did it?
Incog - It's looking as tho you've moved into the role of Uncle Otto for gay folks - and there's no issue about that. I've been Uncle Otto for my family already, and for some others, myself. (Uncle Otto, in case no one immediately realises, was invariably the family member who had immigrated to America in the teens or '20s - from Latvia, or Germany, or Russia or the Pale - and who, starting in about 1935, started writing home and urging his people to come to America for safety.) I think that there is great risk at the moment in the United States for anybody at all who is perceived to be different - Democrats, Jews, gays, contrarians, pacifists, just a whole panoply of difference. The only thing I want to know now, Incog, as your Uncle Otto, is whether you've applied for a transfer to your company's Canadian headquarters and whether you're ready. It never took much courage on the part of Uncle Otto to make the offer - it's a whole lot harder to go. Sometimes it's the better part of wisdom - even so, even so.
Take a look at the front page of the Toronto Star for today, incidentally. That'll make you feel better, I think.
s/
Uncle Otto
Incog - It's looking as tho you've moved into the role of Uncle Otto for gay folks - and there's no issue about that. I've been Uncle Otto for my family already, and for some others, myself. (Uncle Otto, in case no one immediately realises, was invariably the family member who had immigrated to America in the teens or '20s - from Latvia, or Germany, or Russia or the Pale - and who, starting in about 1935, started writing home and urging his people to come to America for safety.) I think that there is great risk at the moment in the United States for anybody at all who is perceived to be different - Democrats, Jews, gays, contrarians, pacifists, just a whole panoply of difference. The only thing I want to know now, Incog, as your Uncle Otto, is whether you've applied for a transfer to your company's Canadian headquarters and whether you're ready. It never took much courage on the part of Uncle Otto to make the offer - it's a whole lot harder to go. Sometimes it's the better part of wisdom - even so, even so.
Take a look at the front page of the Toronto Star for today, incidentally. That'll make you feel better, I think.
s/
Uncle Otto
Did anyone here know that in the Israeli Army, about 70% of men (if not more) report having a homosexual experience? That's a lot more than the 10% that is generally acknowledged to be gay in the general population and I think it shows that a lot of us have the propensity to wards homosexuality/bisexuality.
I wonder what the comparable number in the US military is?
Did anyone here know that in the Israeli Army, about 70% of men (if not more) report having a homosexual experience? That's a lot more than the 10% that is generally acknowledged to be gay in the general population and I think it shows that a lot of us have the propensity to wards homosexuality/bisexuality.
I wonder what the comparable number in the US military is?
Oh, I forgot the conclusion to Anselm's argument:
Therefore, God must exist.
(Kinda goes w/o saying, though.)
Oh, I forgot the conclusion to Anselm's argument:
Therefore, God must exist.
(Kinda goes w/o saying, though.)
And Blue Ridge is 25 mi. west of Blairsville, on US 76/515/appalachian hwy. The south is changing, slowly, and will astonish us one day.
Sure, Larry, yer welcome.
And Blue Ridge is 25 mi. west of Blairsville, on US 76/515/appalachian hwy. The south is changing, slowly, and will astonish us one day.
Sure, Larry, yer welcome.
And I gotta go, night all....
Love and peace, a mountain scholar
And I gotta go, night all....
Love and peace, a mountain scholar
bye Bill.
bye Bill.
I don't know the bible, but from what I've read about it, aren't there passage[s] in it that say that homosexuality is an abomination to God?
If this is correct, then that would be a direct Biblical cause to justify hatred toward gays.
I am definitely no bible scholar, but it is my understanding that there is indeed such a passage, though it is also my understanding that the bible doesn't make that big of a deal out of it -- i.e., the anti-gay passage is listed alongside a bunch of other trivial prohibitions (no pork-type things).
But even if the Bible does provide support for people who hate gays, that still doesn't mean that the Bible caused the hatred.
Incog. shouldn't blame an ideology; s/he should blame the people who hate and persecute gays. Blaming it on religion is sort of akin to relieving the perpetrators of any or most responsibility.
Say I start killing off Republicans with an AK47, and when I'm caught, I justify it by citing passages from the Communist Manifesto. That would hardly mean that Communism was to blame for my actions -- though by Incog.'s reasoning, it would be.
.
I don't know the bible, but from what I've read about it, aren't there passage[s] in it that say that homosexuality is an abomination to God?
If this is correct, then that would be a direct Biblical cause to justify hatred toward gays.
I am definitely no bible scholar, but it is my understanding that there is indeed such a passage, though it is also my understanding that the bible doesn't make that big of a deal out of it -- i.e., the anti-gay passage is listed alongside a bunch of other trivial prohibitions (no pork-type things).
But even if the Bible does provide support for people who hate gays, that still doesn't mean that the Bible caused the hatred.
Incog. shouldn't blame an ideology; s/he should blame the people who hate and persecute gays. Blaming it on religion is sort of akin to relieving the perpetrators of any or most responsibility.
Say I start killing off Republicans with an AK47, and when I'm caught, I justify it by citing passages from the Communist Manifesto. That would hardly mean that Communism was to blame for my actions -- though by Incog.'s reasoning, it would be.
.
on the 20/20 messageboard, they say that posts critical of the show &/or giving 20/20's contact info are being deleted!
just like how the COMMENT form gives an error message...
ABC DOES NOT WANT TO HEAR WHAT YOU THINK.
& they DO NOT want to be held accountable for their actions!!!!!!
on the 20/20 messageboard, they say that posts critical of the show &/or giving 20/20's contact info are being deleted!
just like how the COMMENT form gives an error message...
ABC DOES NOT WANT TO HEAR WHAT YOU THINK.
& they DO NOT want to be held accountable for their actions!!!!!!
And Incognito, I really feel close to divine or closer to the divine when I'm making love to my boyfriend.
That's just the amyl.
And Incognito, I really feel close to divine or closer to the divine when I'm making love to my boyfriend.
That's just the amyl.
Hecate sez:
That's from the 20/20 message board? Amazing. Sick and amazing. Hatred really is mainstream now, isn't it
It's been in the mainstream for a long while.
We're all looking at Squeaky Johnson. You want to know what's going on? ABC, Slate's "Table Talk", I'm sure others.
What a world...
.
Hecate sez:
That's from the 20/20 message board? Amazing. Sick and amazing. Hatred really is mainstream now, isn't it
It's been in the mainstream for a long while.
We're all looking at Squeaky Johnson. You want to know what's going on? ABC, Slate's "Table Talk", I'm sure others.
What a world...
.
oy.
gonna say this once, and then go back to work.
homophobia is endemic to Christianity. it is not a minority viewpoint.
in my opinion, the prudent course for someone who's not homophobic, doesn't want to be seen as endorsing homophobia, and doesn't want to be held responsible for the homophobia of Christians is to get out of the church.
until you do that, or until you repudiate communion with the homophobes, you have a declared allegiance to them and are an accessory to what they do.
oy.back to work.
oy.
gonna say this once, and then go back to work.
homophobia is endemic to Christianity. it is not a minority viewpoint.
in my opinion, the prudent course for someone who's not homophobic, doesn't want to be seen as endorsing homophobia, and doesn't want to be held responsible for the homophobia of Christians is to get out of the church.
until you do that, or until you repudiate communion with the homophobes, you have a declared allegiance to them and are an accessory to what they do.
oy.back to work.
Now that Backslider is here, let me ask him. Do you think the south is going to change any time soon?
Now that Backslider is here, let me ask him. Do you think the south is going to change any time soon?
"until you do that, or until you repudiate communion with the homophobes, you have a declared allegiance to them and are an accessory to what they do."
Been, did, done. I don't like hanging with folks that Christ Jesu thought were severely icky. C.J. was always the kind of guy who plainly knew where top find the 3am nighclubs with the dudes who'd already played their sets for the night. Prissypants people (who invariably don't have a clue what the New Testament actually says and less than that about the Old Testament) would never get thru the door.
"until you do that, or until you repudiate communion with the homophobes, you have a declared allegiance to them and are an accessory to what they do."
Been, did, done. I don't like hanging with folks that Christ Jesu thought were severely icky. C.J. was always the kind of guy who plainly knew where top find the 3am nighclubs with the dudes who'd already played their sets for the night. Prissypants people (who invariably don't have a clue what the New Testament actually says and less than that about the Old Testament) would never get thru the door.
homophobia is endemic to Christianity. it is not a minority viewpoint.
I'm no Christian, but this is just idiotic, and I suspect the poster knows it, and thus is not sticking around to defend it.
One minor biblical passage hardly means that "homophobia is endemic" to the religion. A LOT of Christians pick and choose which parts of the Bible they accept, and which they don't; a Christian can easily reject that small amt. of anti-gay rhetoric in the Bible.
Plus, Christians are supposed to put more emphasis on the New Test., where to my knowledge there is nothing about being gay. Of course, right-wingers seem more infatuated w/ the Old Test., but then right-wingers don't represent all Christians.
Theodoric and Incog. seem to fond of making bold, sweeping pronouncements with absolutely no argument to support them. "Homophobia is endemic to Christianity"; "Monotheism caused suffering of a billion gay people"; these are bold, controversial claims, and as such need to be argued for, or supported by evidence.
?
homophobia is endemic to Christianity. it is not a minority viewpoint.
I'm no Christian, but this is just idiotic, and I suspect the poster knows it, and thus is not sticking around to defend it.
One minor biblical passage hardly means that "homophobia is endemic" to the religion. A LOT of Christians pick and choose which parts of the Bible they accept, and which they don't; a Christian can easily reject that small amt. of anti-gay rhetoric in the Bible.
Plus, Christians are supposed to put more emphasis on the New Test., where to my knowledge there is nothing about being gay. Of course, right-wingers seem more infatuated w/ the Old Test., but then right-wingers don't represent all Christians.
Theodoric and Incog. seem to fond of making bold, sweeping pronouncements with absolutely no argument to support them. "Homophobia is endemic to Christianity"; "Monotheism caused suffering of a billion gay people"; these are bold, controversial claims, and as such need to be argued for, or supported by evidence.
?
The only thing I want to know now, Incog, as your Uncle Otto, is whether you've applied for a transfer to your company's Canadian headquarters and whether you're ready.
Thanks. You're truly someone who gets it. See, I just don't know. I don't want to be the first Jew denied the ability to get out of Nazi Germany as it closed down. I want to scream and yell to other gays to wake up but they think it can't happen here or don't want to accept that it can. I think it'll kill me staying too long trying to warn them. But I can still get out and warn from Canada with a corporate job transfer. I'm considering all my options right now.
The only thing I want to know now, Incog, as your Uncle Otto, is whether you've applied for a transfer to your company's Canadian headquarters and whether you're ready.
Thanks. You're truly someone who gets it. See, I just don't know. I don't want to be the first Jew denied the ability to get out of Nazi Germany as it closed down. I want to scream and yell to other gays to wake up but they think it can't happen here or don't want to accept that it can. I think it'll kill me staying too long trying to warn them. But I can still get out and warn from Canada with a corporate job transfer. I'm considering all my options right now.
another fuckfaced post from the 20/20 board
PenetratingArmo Re: Re: Response Statement from Judy and Dennis Shepard (web link)
replyreply
Posted: Nov 27, 2004 03:28 PM
40 Posts
Registered: Nov 27, 2004
I find this ludicrous.
Who cares what Mathew’s parent’s think or have to say. They are illegitimate sources of information. Both have failed as parents.
Maybe they should have been more concerned with Mathew when he was alive. Than, maybe, just maybe, they could have helped him deal with his depression, AIDS, and drug addiction
another fuckfaced post from the 20/20 board
PenetratingArmo Re: Re: Response Statement from Judy and Dennis Shepard (web link)
replyreply
Posted: Nov 27, 2004 03:28 PM
40 Posts
Registered: Nov 27, 2004
I find this ludicrous.
Who cares what Mathew’s parent’s think or have to say. They are illegitimate sources of information. Both have failed as parents.
Maybe they should have been more concerned with Mathew when he was alive. Than, maybe, just maybe, they could have helped him deal with his depression, AIDS, and drug addiction
Now that were over our knee-jerk liberal reaction to ABC, there is in a fact a crisis in the gay community, of which I am a part. Gay men are becoming addicted to crystal meth at an alarming rate. With this there also seems to be a correlation with rising HIV rates. I am watching my friends drop off.
If you have any gay friends, make sure they stay away from the stuff.
Now that were over our knee-jerk liberal reaction to ABC, there is in a fact a crisis in the gay community, of which I am a part. Gay men are becoming addicted to crystal meth at an alarming rate. With this there also seems to be a correlation with rising HIV rates. I am watching my friends drop off.
If you have any gay friends, make sure they stay away from the stuff.
Stoopid, if that is your real name, St. Paul is the only reference in the New Testament that I know of that said something negative about gays. He also made snide remarks about women and suggested we should all remain celibate. I don't know why people listen to him instead of the apostles who actually knew and were taught by Jesus.
Stoopid, if that is your real name, St. Paul is the only reference in the New Testament that I know of that said something negative about gays. He also made snide remarks about women and suggested we should all remain celibate. I don't know why people listen to him instead of the apostles who actually knew and were taught by Jesus.
"I don't want to be the first Jew denied the ability to get out of Nazi Germany as it closed down. "
Funny chappie - a couple of years ago, I was contacted (the way it happens when people are looking online for their possible relatives) by people who share my surname. Turned out, my gang had run like hell from the Cossacks in the 1890s (aiming for New York, somehow they hit Montreal, but hey, whatever). The people left behind were part of this other family group. -They- finally wised up and found a boat leaving for Cuba. As it happened, their boat was the very last boat which Cuba admitted from Germany. They were stranded in Cuba for about a year, finally being allowed to go to the States. Funny thing that. But sometimes you just have to understand that even when Uncle Otto isn't around to welcome you, to survive, you have to hit the ground running. It can't hurt to make the application. I don't know what's going to happen either, but every single one of my eastern European runaway genes is trembling in anticipation. (The Cherokee genes are saying, so? You expected something different from the white-eyes?) Gotta sign off; that mutinous dog Arthur has his eye on the pizza in the oven...
/s
Uncle Otto
"I don't want to be the first Jew denied the ability to get out of Nazi Germany as it closed down. "
Funny chappie - a couple of years ago, I was contacted (the way it happens when people are looking online for their possible relatives) by people who share my surname. Turned out, my gang had run like hell from the Cossacks in the 1890s (aiming for New York, somehow they hit Montreal, but hey, whatever). The people left behind were part of this other family group. -They- finally wised up and found a boat leaving for Cuba. As it happened, their boat was the very last boat which Cuba admitted from Germany. They were stranded in Cuba for about a year, finally being allowed to go to the States. Funny thing that. But sometimes you just have to understand that even when Uncle Otto isn't around to welcome you, to survive, you have to hit the ground running. It can't hurt to make the application. I don't know what's going to happen either, but every single one of my eastern European runaway genes is trembling in anticipation. (The Cherokee genes are saying, so? You expected something different from the white-eyes?) Gotta sign off; that mutinous dog Arthur has his eye on the pizza in the oven...
/s
Uncle Otto
coming soon on 20/20:
* The Untold Story of Nazi Death Camp guards! Hear their side of the story for the first time! Were the Jews really "victims"? Or did they have it coming?
* The Untold Story behind the James Bird killing! Sure, he was dragged to death behind a pickup truck, but was Bird really an 'innocent black man'? Tune in to 20/20 and hear the other side of the story from his "killers" that no one else wants you to hear!
coming soon on 20/20:
* The Untold Story of Nazi Death Camp guards! Hear their side of the story for the first time! Were the Jews really "victims"? Or did they have it coming?
* The Untold Story behind the James Bird killing! Sure, he was dragged to death behind a pickup truck, but was Bird really an 'innocent black man'? Tune in to 20/20 and hear the other side of the story from his "killers" that no one else wants you to hear!
i was reading earlier this evening about gertrude stein & alice b toklas fleeing to escape the nazis.
my first thought was that people here & on dkos would label them "cowards"
i was reading earlier this evening about gertrude stein & alice b toklas fleeing to escape the nazis.
my first thought was that people here & on dkos would label them "cowards"
spork,
I know they talk like that at LGF, I guess I'm just a little surprised its showing up somewhere more mainstream. Naive, I know.
spork,
I know they talk like that at LGF, I guess I'm just a little surprised its showing up somewhere more mainstream. Naive, I know.
"Did governor Maddox have a troubled youth?"
Well, according to John T. Edge, Maddox got his start with a fried chicken stand. "White meat for white people" was his line.
About the ancient Greeks: I think it was mostly a matter of society making a distinction between the public and private spheres. Marriage as a personal relationship, rather than a sort of partnership is a relatively new concept. In other non-Western cultures to this day, the major concern about anyone's sexuality is whether or not it will prevent him/her from having children.
"Did governor Maddox have a troubled youth?"
Well, according to John T. Edge, Maddox got his start with a fried chicken stand. "White meat for white people" was his line.
About the ancient Greeks: I think it was mostly a matter of society making a distinction between the public and private spheres. Marriage as a personal relationship, rather than a sort of partnership is a relatively new concept. In other non-Western cultures to this day, the major concern about anyone's sexuality is whether or not it will prevent him/her from having children.
Pine Lake Larry,
For the better or the worse? Honestly, I don't know. I grew up during the vaunted "New South" of the late '70s/early '80s, and frankly, the only thing I saw different from what I heard went on beforehand is that people weren't quite as overt with their racism by the time Carter got the White House. And it got worse as I got older. I noticed it in the kids that were behind me in school. From what my aunt - who teaches 8th grade civics - tells me, though, it's getting better. There's still a very solid and defined line, but white kids aren't calling black kids "nigger" to their face. So, I guess that's some progress.
If you're talking as far as gay issues go, the South is being dragged kicking and screaming into the twentieth century (note: not a typo) concerning that subject. However, that's really not an issue of "The South" as much as it's just basic Joe Sixpack America. We in this country still like our beers cold, our coffee hot and our queers flaming. If anything, the South is just louder about it and quicker to use sexuality (as well as gender roles) as a club to use against opponents.
I've never been one who tries to defend the South's nature, especially with the rather tepid defense of "Well, the rest of the country's screwed up, too". However, the rest of the country really is screwed up big time. I still have a hard time digesting the idea of people having enough free time to be this concerned over who a completly and totally unknown adult of full mental capacity fucks. And it's not bullshit to say the South and her people make a rather handy Judas goat for America's sins.
Frankly, I think it's a lot like I was saying about schools the other day: society's fucked up, not just the South. Fix society and the South, well...won't be an issue. Till then, concepts of "better or worse" really don't hold much water. It just is.
Pine Lake Larry,
For the better or the worse? Honestly, I don't know. I grew up during the vaunted "New South" of the late '70s/early '80s, and frankly, the only thing I saw different from what I heard went on beforehand is that people weren't quite as overt with their racism by the time Carter got the White House. And it got worse as I got older. I noticed it in the kids that were behind me in school. From what my aunt - who teaches 8th grade civics - tells me, though, it's getting better. There's still a very solid and defined line, but white kids aren't calling black kids "nigger" to their face. So, I guess that's some progress.
If you're talking as far as gay issues go, the South is being dragged kicking and screaming into the twentieth century (note: not a typo) concerning that subject. However, that's really not an issue of "The South" as much as it's just basic Joe Sixpack America. We in this country still like our beers cold, our coffee hot and our queers flaming. If anything, the South is just louder about it and quicker to use sexuality (as well as gender roles) as a club to use against opponents.
I've never been one who tries to defend the South's nature, especially with the rather tepid defense of "Well, the rest of the country's screwed up, too". However, the rest of the country really is screwed up big time. I still have a hard time digesting the idea of people having enough free time to be this concerned over who a completly and totally unknown adult of full mental capacity fucks. And it's not bullshit to say the South and her people make a rather handy Judas goat for America's sins.
Frankly, I think it's a lot like I was saying about schools the other day: society's fucked up, not just the South. Fix society and the South, well...won't be an issue. Till then, concepts of "better or worse" really don't hold much water. It just is.
Well, that Gov. Maddox, he sure could ride a bicycle backwards, don't you know.
Well, that Gov. Maddox, he sure could ride a bicycle backwards, don't you know.
If you have any gay friends, make sure they stay away from the stuff.
KEn | Email | Homepage | 11.27.04 - 8:12 pm | #
Or just anyone you care about in general. Nasty shit. Not quite as addictive as, say, crack or blow, but does a shit-ton of damage to the body. What's worse, is it's basically mixed up in shitty environments, so you're basically snorting the equivilent of bathtub gin or radiator moonshine.
Ironically enough, crank is also the upper-de-jour of both rednecks and the redneck revivalist crowd (both the for-real country folk and the "hillbillies in black face" bunch).
If you have any gay friends, make sure they stay away from the stuff.
KEn | Email | Homepage | 11.27.04 - 8:12 pm | #
Or just anyone you care about in general. Nasty shit. Not quite as addictive as, say, crack or blow, but does a shit-ton of damage to the body. What's worse, is it's basically mixed up in shitty environments, so you're basically snorting the equivilent of bathtub gin or radiator moonshine.
Ironically enough, crank is also the upper-de-jour of both rednecks and the redneck revivalist crowd (both the for-real country folk and the "hillbillies in black face" bunch).
i was reading earlier this evening about gertrude stein & alice b toklas fleeing to escape the nazis.
my first thought was that people here & on dkos would label them "cowards"
n69n
And you would be correct. I wouldn't be one of them, but there would be plenty here to do it.
i was reading earlier this evening about gertrude stein & alice b toklas fleeing to escape the nazis.
my first thought was that people here & on dkos would label them "cowards"
n69n
And you would be correct. I wouldn't be one of them, but there would be plenty here to do it.
The letter I wanted to send:
It has come to my attention that your filthy excuse for a television network and sole profit center for the failing Disney corp. is grave digging a rich vein of homophobia akin to the one exploited by Mr. Rove's client by giving the killers of Matthew Shepard access to your chunk of public airwave.
I rarely watch your pitiful offerings and was made aware of this latest sickening excess by one of the many web-based replacements for your horrible Canadian newscast. Pee-tah makes my skin crawl as did Hugh Downs, Bawa Wawa and, as I imagine, so would the latest of your 'sexy" news kittens Elizabeth Vargas if I ever had the unlikely misfortune of accidentally tuning in to the laughable 20/20.
I imagine my distaste is somewhat rare and think it likely that many of your viewers, using one of your sponsors many erectile dysfunction preparations, are feverishly masterbating to your perverted air signal.
How proud you all must be!
When the mob eventually storms your corporate offices I hope they consider roping several of you to a fence prior to a terminal beating. Others, while hanging from street lighting, should have time, as consciousness wanes and bowels release, to reflect upon your sins and your eternal damnation. Ooh, I'm sounding like a reality or live event producer!
I will be proud to urge all my friends and neighbors to avoid your tainted programming for the foreseeable future.
The letter I wanted to send:
It has come to my attention that your filthy excuse for a television network and sole profit center for the failing Disney corp. is grave digging a rich vein of homophobia akin to the one exploited by Mr. Rove's client by giving the killers of Matthew Shepard access to your chunk of public airwave.
I rarely watch your pitiful offerings and was made aware of this latest sickening excess by one of the many web-based replacements for your horrible Canadian newscast. Pee-tah makes my skin crawl as did Hugh Downs, Bawa Wawa and, as I imagine, so would the latest of your 'sexy" news kittens Elizabeth Vargas if I ever had the unlikely misfortune of accidentally tuning in to the laughable 20/20.
I imagine my distaste is somewhat rare and think it likely that many of your viewers, using one of your sponsors many erectile dysfunction preparations, are feverishly masterbating to your perverted air signal.
How proud you all must be!
When the mob eventually storms your corporate offices I hope they consider roping several of you to a fence prior to a terminal beating. Others, while hanging from street lighting, should have time, as consciousness wanes and bowels release, to reflect upon your sins and your eternal damnation. Ooh, I'm sounding like a reality or live event producer!
I will be proud to urge all my friends and neighbors to avoid your tainted programming for the foreseeable future.
"KEn" = Troll
"KEn" = Troll
"The first recorded hanging was that of Daniell Frank in Virginia on March 1st 1622 for cattle stealing."
http://tinyurl.com/5w7zo
"The first recorded hanging was that of Daniell Frank in Virginia on March 1st 1622 for cattle stealing."
http://tinyurl.com/5w7zo
I have a theory that anti- homosexual hysteria started very early in Jewish history and was passed on to the Christian sect. In their early history the Jewish people were being attacked almost continuously by other tribespeople in the Middle East. In order to survive they had to keep increasing their population and this entailed strongly discouraging homosexuality and promoting heterosexual marriage. After awhile people forgot the reasons for prejudice against homosexuals or they invented new ones. The myth of Sodom and Gomorrah was meant to impress on people that God would kill them if they were openly homosexual. The objective was to keep the population growing so they could defend themselves. It worked so well that hatred of homosexuals continued even after it was no longer necessary to promote population growth. Like today's Christians they liked to use God to scare hell out of people for political purposes.
I have a theory that anti- homosexual hysteria started very early in Jewish history and was passed on to the Christian sect. In their early history the Jewish people were being attacked almost continuously by other tribespeople in the Middle East. In order to survive they had to keep increasing their population and this entailed strongly discouraging homosexuality and promoting heterosexual marriage. After awhile people forgot the reasons for prejudice against homosexuals or they invented new ones. The myth of Sodom and Gomorrah was meant to impress on people that God would kill them if they were openly homosexual. The objective was to keep the population growing so they could defend themselves. It worked so well that hatred of homosexuals continued even after it was no longer necessary to promote population growth. Like today's Christians they liked to use God to scare hell out of people for political purposes.
I wouldn't refer to the 11 Amendments as anti-gay. I would prefer the term pro-family Amendments.
Somehow, it wouldn't surprise me to hear that Nazi supporters had similar opinions about their Nuremberg laws.
I wouldn't refer to the 11 Amendments as anti-gay. I would prefer the term pro-family Amendments.
Somehow, it wouldn't surprise me to hear that Nazi supporters had similar opinions about their Nuremberg laws.
orbis cosmicum ubivis decessum ab incensum.
orbis cosmicum ubivis decessum ab incensum.
This reminds me of when some journalists questioned if Cassie Bernal had really said "yes, I do believe in God" before the Columbine killers shot her. Evangelicals just went crazy over the very suggestion. Point to be taken here is that people react very, very emotionally when you question their cherished martyrs. Even if the story is true, ABC shouldn't have gone there. It's just too upsetting and really, it doesn't matter any way.
This reminds me of when some journalists questioned if Cassie Bernal had really said "yes, I do believe in God" before the Columbine killers shot her. Evangelicals just went crazy over the very suggestion. Point to be taken here is that people react very, very emotionally when you question their cherished martyrs. Even if the story is true, ABC shouldn't have gone there. It's just too upsetting and really, it doesn't matter any way.
David it is people like you who refuse to allow anyone outside of the community help us deal with issues until it is too late.
I'd rather be a troll than a smug and self sanctimonious asshole
David it is people like you who refuse to allow anyone outside of the community help us deal with issues until it is too late.
I'd rather be a troll than a smug and self sanctimonious asshole
Wen can we start killin injuns again?
Wen can we start killin injuns again?
I'm no Christian, but this is just idiotic, and I suspect the poster knows it, and thus is not sticking around to defend it.
I can tell that you're not a Christian, and are operating in something of an informational vacuum, because you're clearly confused.
I meant what I said very literally. I was a Christian, and a devout one, until the age of 34. I belonged to three different Protestant denominations, was a licensed lay reader/chalice bearer in one, and a conference-level youth leader in another. I have attended services in a very broad range of denominations, in urban and rural settings, on both coasts and several places in between.
I have, in other words, done my homework.
Apart from those that were organized precisely as gay churches, I am aware of three groups among the astonishing variety of American Protestant denominations that would be welcoming of gay people, not just as members, but in leadership roles. I gather that gays are generally accepted among Unitarians and Quakers, and I'm assured by Pastor Jeffers that the UCC also welcomes them not only as laity but also as clergy, although I've been unable to confirm that among the UCC members I know. Apart from these three groups (and the aforementioned gay groups such as the Metropolitan Community Churches), acceptance of homosexuality as a fully valid lifestyle is a minority position in every single Christian group I know of.
One of the three denominations to which I have belonged recently ordained a gay bishop, but this is far from saying that out gays are generally accepted and welcomed in that denomination, even as laity. They are not.
Another denomination to which I have belonged, when one of their clergy came out of the closet last spring, put her on trial.
And these are two Protestant groups that are generally considered pretty liberal.
It's utter foolishness to think that because Jesus didn't personally and stridently condemn something, that that something is not condemned by the church. Lamentably, you can't learn much about Christianity from reading the Bible.
I'm no Christian, but this is just idiotic, and I suspect the poster knows it, and thus is not sticking around to defend it.
I can tell that you're not a Christian, and are operating in something of an informational vacuum, because you're clearly confused.
I meant what I said very literally. I was a Christian, and a devout one, until the age of 34. I belonged to three different Protestant denominations, was a licensed lay reader/chalice bearer in one, and a conference-level youth leader in another. I have attended services in a very broad range of denominations, in urban and rural settings, on both coasts and several places in between.
I have, in other words, done my homework.
Apart from those that were organized precisely as gay churches, I am aware of three groups among the astonishing variety of American Protestant denominations that would be welcoming of gay people, not just as members, but in leadership roles. I gather that gays are generally accepted among Unitarians and Quakers, and I'm assured by Pastor Jeffers that the UCC also welcomes them not only as laity but also as clergy, although I've been unable to confirm that among the UCC members I know. Apart from these three groups (and the aforementioned gay groups such as the Metropolitan Community Churches), acceptance of homosexuality as a fully valid lifestyle is a minority position in every single Christian group I know of.
One of the three denominations to which I have belonged recently ordained a gay bishop, but this is far from saying that out gays are generally accepted and welcomed in that denomination, even as laity. They are not.
Another denomination to which I have belonged, when one of their clergy came out of the closet last spring, put her on trial.
And these are two Protestant groups that are generally considered pretty liberal.
It's utter foolishness to think that because Jesus didn't personally and stridently condemn something, that that something is not condemned by the church. Lamentably, you can't learn much about Christianity from reading the Bible.
It's not a very good argument, really.
Well, it's better than that, but it depends on a profounder acceptance of Platonic metaphysics than is the general course today.
Which means it is a profoundly subtle argument, based on profoundly subtle reasoning. And the variation by Charles Hartshorne (20th century philosopher, late of the UT-Austin faculty) is even subtler.
Doesn't mean it's right, though.
As Kierkegaard pointed out (in another round of subtle thinking, so I can't do it justice here), the argument for the existence of any being is not one we actually ever engage in, except when it comes to arguing about "God." We don't prove the existence of an historical figure named Napoleon, or of the prisoner in the dock. The prisoner's existence is not questioned; just his/her identity/culpability was a criminal. Napoleon's existence is never proven, either; but we establish that an historical personage, whom we know as Napoleon (today it would be even better to say "Lenin," since he isn't know by that name in Russia), performed certain deeds.
In neither case is "existence" proven. And the real question is: how is existence ever proven?
Do I prove I exist by typing this? Or do we merely agree that someone identified as "Robert M. Jeffers" is at the other end of the production of these words?
Curiouser and curiouser....
It's not a very good argument, really.
Well, it's better than that, but it depends on a profounder acceptance of Platonic metaphysics than is the general course today.
Which means it is a profoundly subtle argument, based on profoundly subtle reasoning. And the variation by Charles Hartshorne (20th century philosopher, late of the UT-Austin faculty) is even subtler.
Doesn't mean it's right, though.
As Kierkegaard pointed out (in another round of subtle thinking, so I can't do it justice here), the argument for the existence of any being is not one we actually ever engage in, except when it comes to arguing about "God." We don't prove the existence of an historical figure named Napoleon, or of the prisoner in the dock. The prisoner's existence is not questioned; just his/her identity/culpability was a criminal. Napoleon's existence is never proven, either; but we establish that an historical personage, whom we know as Napoleon (today it would be even better to say "Lenin," since he isn't know by that name in Russia), performed certain deeds.
In neither case is "existence" proven. And the real question is: how is existence ever proven?
Do I prove I exist by typing this? Or do we merely agree that someone identified as "Robert M. Jeffers" is at the other end of the production of these words?
Curiouser and curiouser....
RMJ sez:
Do I prove I exist by typing this? Or do we merely agree that someone identified as "Robert M. Jeffers" is at the other end of the production of these words?
Rene' Descartes would die again if he saw this.
What are you getting at, Robert?
.
RMJ sez:
Do I prove I exist by typing this? Or do we merely agree that someone identified as "Robert M. Jeffers" is at the other end of the production of these words?
Rene' Descartes would die again if he saw this.
What are you getting at, Robert?
.
Lamentably, you can't learn much about Christianity from reading the Bible.
theodoric
that pretty much sums it up...fucking "christians" are always makin' shit up.
Jesus Christ would be embarrassed.
Lamentably, you can't learn much about Christianity from reading the Bible.
theodoric
that pretty much sums it up...fucking "christians" are always makin' shit up.
Jesus Christ would be embarrassed.
I'd rather be a troll than a smug and self sanctimonious asshole
KEn | Email | Homepage | 11.27.04 - 9:03 pm | #
hey wow, you're both!
I'd rather be a troll than a smug and self sanctimonious asshole
KEn | Email | Homepage | 11.27.04 - 9:03 pm | #
hey wow, you're both!
Ironically enough, crank is also the upper-de-jour of both rednecks and the redneck revivalist crowd (both the for-real country folk and the "hillbillies in black face" bunch).
Backslider
The county I live in is #1 for meth production in this country. Your post is spot on. Rural farming areas, with high unenjoyment rate.
Ironically enough, crank is also the upper-de-jour of both rednecks and the redneck revivalist crowd (both the for-real country folk and the "hillbillies in black face" bunch).
Backslider
The county I live in is #1 for meth production in this country. Your post is spot on. Rural farming areas, with high unenjoyment rate.
Lawyers say whatever they have to in order to get their client an acquital.
So lawyers don't ever consult with their clients before presenting a defense. They just make up anything they want, and the client never hears about it until it's brought up at trial.
Riiiiiight.
Lawyers say whatever they have to in order to get their client an acquital.
So lawyers don't ever consult with their clients before presenting a defense. They just make up anything they want, and the client never hears about it until it's brought up at trial.
Riiiiiight.
Rene' Descartes would die again if he saw this.
What are you getting at, Robert?
Descartes stopped short at the point of doubting his own existence, basing his proof solely on the fact that he thought. Hume went to the logical conclusion of the Frenchmans' skepticism, asking who was doing the thinking, and why he could never locate it.
Kant came along and put the house of cards back together again enough to usher in phenomenology, of which Kierkegaard is in many ways a precursor.
The question of the self is a question of trap doors, in a series. Once you start asking the questions, a trap door opens where you thought was solid ground, and you fall through. Then when you think you're on solid ground again, and have all the questions answered, you fall through. (with apologies to Robert Silverberg).
Rene' Descartes would die again if he saw this.
What are you getting at, Robert?
Descartes stopped short at the point of doubting his own existence, basing his proof solely on the fact that he thought. Hume went to the logical conclusion of the Frenchmans' skepticism, asking who was doing the thinking, and why he could never locate it.
Kant came along and put the house of cards back together again enough to usher in phenomenology, of which Kierkegaard is in many ways a precursor.
The question of the self is a question of trap doors, in a series. Once you start asking the questions, a trap door opens where you thought was solid ground, and you fall through. Then when you think you're on solid ground again, and have all the questions answered, you fall through. (with apologies to Robert Silverberg).
Well, it's better than that, but it depends on a profounder acceptance of Platonic metaphysics than is the general course today.
Very true; I was trying to phrase the argument without getting into all that.
If I remember correctly, Anselm says that since there exists the "concept" God, there must exist an actual God, since denying existence to God would be tantamount to denying an essential property of the "concept" God that we all agree exist, or would if we were Platonists.
I thinK?
Well, it's better than that, but it depends on a profounder acceptance of Platonic metaphysics than is the general course today.
Very true; I was trying to phrase the argument without getting into all that.
If I remember correctly, Anselm says that since there exists the "concept" God, there must exist an actual God, since denying existence to God would be tantamount to denying an essential property of the "concept" God that we all agree exist, or would if we were Platonists.
I thinK?
So lawyers don't ever consult with their clients before presenting a defense. They just make up anything they want, and the client never hears about it until it's brought up at trial.
Jeez.
That's not what I said, of course. Whether or not the client "heard" anything about it is irrelevant to whether it was true, unless you are assuming that a murderer would have the integrity not to lie about why he killed.
Of course, the defendant probably has to sign off on the "theory" presented by the defense lawyer, but that doesn't make said theory any more likely to be true. To be more precise, I could have said, the lawyer PLUS the defendant will say anything in order to get an acquital.
Presumably, Geragos and Petersen confered on the "Satanic cult" defense; so what? Does that make it true? OF course not.
So lawyers don't ever consult with their clients before presenting a defense. They just make up anything they want, and the client never hears about it until it's brought up at trial.
Jeez.
That's not what I said, of course. Whether or not the client "heard" anything about it is irrelevant to whether it was true, unless you are assuming that a murderer would have the integrity not to lie about why he killed.
Of course, the defendant probably has to sign off on the "theory" presented by the defense lawyer, but that doesn't make said theory any more likely to be true. To be more precise, I could have said, the lawyer PLUS the defendant will say anything in order to get an acquital.
Presumably, Geragos and Petersen confered on the "Satanic cult" defense; so what? Does that make it true? OF course not.
Apart from these three groups (and the aforementioned gay groups such as the Metropolitan Community Churches), acceptance of homosexuality as a fully valid lifestyle is a minority position in every single Christian group I know of.
Still doesn't prove anything. Isn't "acceptance of homosexuality as a fully valid lifestyle" a minority position in almost any group one might delineate? While it might not be within a group of, e.g., artists, it certainly would be within a group of say, athletes.
All this shows is that homophobia is widespread; to arbitrarily pick out Christianity as being especially homophobic would require showing that Christians are disproportionately homophobic, more than people of other religions.
Of course, you would probably find a correlation b/w Christianity & homophobia, but this also doesn't cut it, because it doesn't establish that Christianity CAUSED the homophobia. Perhaps people who are already homophobes are attracted to Christianity, or perhaps there is some common cause for both of them (e.g., stupidity).
.
Apart from these three groups (and the aforementioned gay groups such as the Metropolitan Community Churches), acceptance of homosexuality as a fully valid lifestyle is a minority position in every single Christian group I know of.
Still doesn't prove anything. Isn't "acceptance of homosexuality as a fully valid lifestyle" a minority position in almost any group one might delineate? While it might not be within a group of, e.g., artists, it certainly would be within a group of say, athletes.
All this shows is that homophobia is widespread; to arbitrarily pick out Christianity as being especially homophobic would require showing that Christians are disproportionately homophobic, more than people of other religions.
Of course, you would probably find a correlation b/w Christianity & homophobia, but this also doesn't cut it, because it doesn't establish that Christianity CAUSED the homophobia. Perhaps people who are already homophobes are attracted to Christianity, or perhaps there is some common cause for both of them (e.g., stupidity).
.
RMJ sez:
The question of the self is a question of trap doors, in a series. Once you start asking the questions, a trap door opens where you thought was solid ground, and you fall through. Then when you think you're on solid ground again, and have all the questions answered, you fall through.
I opened a lot of those doors and managed somehow to step around the trap doors. Eventually I said "Stop! Enough!"
There are so many doors but I decided to choose onlya few to open.
I don't know what I'm missing but I know what I'm not missing.
.
RMJ sez:
The question of the self is a question of trap doors, in a series. Once you start asking the questions, a trap door opens where you thought was solid ground, and you fall through. Then when you think you're on solid ground again, and have all the questions answered, you fall through.
I opened a lot of those doors and managed somehow to step around the trap doors. Eventually I said "Stop! Enough!"
There are so many doors but I decided to choose onlya few to open.
I don't know what I'm missing but I know what I'm not missing.
.
Back to the story.
ABC seems to be playing up to the desire for "change" in viewing some issues. The "change" is an attempt to diminish acceptance of gays and lesbians. HOWEVER, I think it is too late. The genie is out of the bottle, and it'll be something to see the hothead neo-theos try to get that genie back in without violence, which I personally think the neo-theos are not wanting to start due to a backlash against murder and brutality against our own citizens. Right now, there is a lot of bluff and press, but that's it.
Do not be scared, the neo-theo wants you scared, but be vigilent and learn how to defend yourselves. And for God's sakes, don't vote for loons just because you just might be a "CONSERVATIVE GAY!" Yes there is such a thing!
Back to the story.
ABC seems to be playing up to the desire for "change" in viewing some issues. The "change" is an attempt to diminish acceptance of gays and lesbians. HOWEVER, I think it is too late. The genie is out of the bottle, and it'll be something to see the hothead neo-theos try to get that genie back in without violence, which I personally think the neo-theos are not wanting to start due to a backlash against murder and brutality against our own citizens. Right now, there is a lot of bluff and press, but that's it.
Do not be scared, the neo-theo wants you scared, but be vigilent and learn how to defend yourselves. And for God's sakes, don't vote for loons just because you just might be a "CONSERVATIVE GAY!" Yes there is such a thing!
Descartes famously said, "I think; therefore, I am."
The Roman poet Horace is supposed to have said, "Seize the day, and put the least possible trust in tomorrow."
Of course, that is putting Descartes before Horace.
Descartes famously said, "I think; therefore, I am."
The Roman poet Horace is supposed to have said, "Seize the day, and put the least possible trust in tomorrow."
Of course, that is putting Descartes before Horace.
To the person way upthread who asked about how religion, politics and corporatism got so mixed up....
Welcome to Spanish Fascism. Generallissimo El Busho has met Generallissimo Franciso Franco's memory, and he like it!
Study Spanish Fascism. This is a touchstone of aggressive Dubya-ism.
To the person way upthread who asked about how religion, politics and corporatism got so mixed up....
Welcome to Spanish Fascism. Generallissimo El Busho has met Generallissimo Franciso Franco's memory, and he like it!
Study Spanish Fascism. This is a touchstone of aggressive Dubya-ism.
So did anyone actually watch the 20/20 thing? This sounds a lot like something I read in Harper's a while back. The killers were meth-heads and one of them may have been bisexual...... this report claims they hit on gay panic as a way to beat the rap, that they were mostly interested in robbing Matthew, who also had some kind of meth connection. Life is messy, but nobody deserves to beat to death and lashed to a fence. I'm a little ambivalent about the subject of hate crimes, regardless of the targets -- seems like the crimes are bad enough and trying to read the killer's intent and making some murders worse than others isn't necessarily all that helpful. But let's take the worst case -- the killer had (closeted) homosexual experiences and feelings, and he knew Matthew was gay. Surely this does not really step on the anti-gay story here. It's pretty accepted that violent homophobes have serious sexual identity issues of their own. The average straight response to a gay person is and should be basic live and let live indifference. People who get violent around gay people, people who gay bash, are in some sense victims of a society that is profoundly homophobic. The gay basher loathes himself first, then tries to kill the thing in himself that he hates. From what I understand of the ABC report, it didn't explore the not-so-new facts in this light but tried to suggest that this didn't make the case a gay bashing. That just does not follow logically.
And of course nothing these freaks say years after the fact is particularly interesting. So they
claim they weren't homophobic, they just wanted to use "gay panic" to beat a murder rap? That's even worse, especially if the killer himself has had homosexual experiences. Which is pretty much hearsay, I gather.
So did anyone actually watch the 20/20 thing? This sounds a lot like something I read in Harper's a while back. The killers were meth-heads and one of them may have been bisexual...... this report claims they hit on gay panic as a way to beat the rap, that they were mostly interested in robbing Matthew, who also had some kind of meth connection. Life is messy, but nobody deserves to beat to death and lashed to a fence. I'm a little ambivalent about the subject of hate crimes, regardless of the targets -- seems like the crimes are bad enough and trying to read the killer's intent and making some murders worse than others isn't necessarily all that helpful. But let's take the worst case -- the killer had (closeted) homosexual experiences and feelings, and he knew Matthew was gay. Surely this does not really step on the anti-gay story here. It's pretty accepted that violent homophobes have serious sexual identity issues of their own. The average straight response to a gay person is and should be basic live and let live indifference. People who get violent around gay people, people who gay bash, are in some sense victims of a society that is profoundly homophobic. The gay basher loathes himself first, then tries to kill the thing in himself that he hates. From what I understand of the ABC report, it didn't explore the not-so-new facts in this light but tried to suggest that this didn't make the case a gay bashing. That just does not follow logically.
And of course nothing these freaks say years after the fact is particularly interesting. So they
claim they weren't homophobic, they just wanted to use "gay panic" to beat a murder rap? That's even worse, especially if the killer himself has had homosexual experiences. Which is pretty much hearsay, I gather.
"David it is people like you who refuse to allow anyone outside of the community help us deal with issues until it is too late.
I'd rather be a troll than a smug and self sanctimonious asshole"
Just ginning up your troll credentials, dear.
There is no such thing as "outside the community." What "community"? We all live in the same world. Obviously you haven't noticed the changes over the course of the last 35 years.
"David it is people like you who refuse to allow anyone outside of the community help us deal with issues until it is too late.
I'd rather be a troll than a smug and self sanctimonious asshole"
Just ginning up your troll credentials, dear.
There is no such thing as "outside the community." What "community"? We all live in the same world. Obviously you haven't noticed the changes over the course of the last 35 years.
Of course, that is putting Descartes before Horace.
Cruel, Cruel world!
Of course, that is putting Descartes before Horace.
Cruel, Cruel world!
Well, the official ABC link gave me an error message. Funny.
Anyway, it's nice to see ABC isn't any more serious about 20/20 than it used to be. John Stossell--the complete philistine of all philistines--will probably run the program past Fox News when it comes to yellow journalism, and Elizabeth Vargas, well, she's pretty and all that.
Well, the official ABC link gave me an error message. Funny.
Anyway, it's nice to see ABC isn't any more serious about 20/20 than it used to be. John Stossell--the complete philistine of all philistines--will probably run the program past Fox News when it comes to yellow journalism, and Elizabeth Vargas, well, she's pretty and all that.
David perhaps if you spent a little less time gossiping about B list celebrites and took an interest in the community, you would see the error of your ways, not to mention how trite your life actually is.
There is a community, and because you care nothing for it, you can't see the problems. Perhaps a little viagra will get you on the path to enlightenment.
David perhaps if you spent a little less time gossiping about B list celebrites and took an interest in the community, you would see the error of your ways, not to mention how trite your life actually is.
There is a community, and because you care nothing for it, you can't see the problems. Perhaps a little viagra will get you on the path to enlightenment.
...perhaps if you spent a little less time gos--
ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzz...
...perhaps if you spent a little less time gos--
ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzz...
Descartes famously said, "I think; therefore, I am."
Rene Descartes
Was a drunken old fart
"I drink, therefore I am!"
Descartes famously said, "I think; therefore, I am."
Rene Descartes
Was a drunken old fart
"I drink, therefore I am!"
"Am I remembering this wrong?
I'm pretty sure the defense offered up by the killers in their trial was that they had succumbed to a "gay panic" that drove them to murder.
Not temporary insanity due to methamphetamine usage. "Gay panic."
Was this even mentioned in the 20/20 piece?
Seraphiel"
No you are not wrong, and that is what is so despicable about the 20/20 piece. McKinney's new case is "I am not a homophobe but I was counting on a Wyoming jury to be homophobic". Trying to use the fact that the victim was gay as a defense for murder is no different than framing and lynching a black man for a crime you yourself committed. In each case you are tapping into the well of collective hate for selfish ends.
In my view this makes these two more guilty, and more hateful than even their previous pathetic attempts at defense proved them to be.
Man, scenes from "To Kill a Mockingbird" keep springing into my head.
"Am I remembering this wrong?
I'm pretty sure the defense offered up by the killers in their trial was that they had succumbed to a "gay panic" that drove them to murder.
Not temporary insanity due to methamphetamine usage. "Gay panic."
Was this even mentioned in the 20/20 piece?
Seraphiel"
No you are not wrong, and that is what is so despicable about the 20/20 piece. McKinney's new case is "I am not a homophobe but I was counting on a Wyoming jury to be homophobic". Trying to use the fact that the victim was gay as a defense for murder is no different than framing and lynching a black man for a crime you yourself committed. In each case you are tapping into the well of collective hate for selfish ends.
In my view this makes these two more guilty, and more hateful than even their previous pathetic attempts at defense proved them to be.
Man, scenes from "To Kill a Mockingbird" keep springing into my head.
I don't see them mentioned in this thread, hoping that they have made themselves entirely irrelevant in the same way Nader has, but it should be mentioned. The Uncle Tom's Cabin- Sully faction of gay people can't deny that the Republican establishment, of which ABC is a part, won't be satisfied until they've wrung every bit of advantage they can out of whipping up hatred of gay people. Even those of us brutally murdered by brainless thugs who are convicted of the murder in Wyoming (for Christ's sake) can be used to further the fascist agenda of the Republican right.
What is the answer for the problem of the Future Kapos of America Klub? Keep a list, expose them, within the community shun them, ridicule them, don't let a single opportunity to remind people of what a bunch of traitors they are. Of course, no sex.
I don't see them mentioned in this thread, hoping that they have made themselves entirely irrelevant in the same way Nader has, but it should be mentioned. The Uncle Tom's Cabin- Sully faction of gay people can't deny that the Republican establishment, of which ABC is a part, won't be satisfied until they've wrung every bit of advantage they can out of whipping up hatred of gay people. Even those of us brutally murdered by brainless thugs who are convicted of the murder in Wyoming (for Christ's sake) can be used to further the fascist agenda of the Republican right.
What is the answer for the problem of the Future Kapos of America Klub? Keep a list, expose them, within the community shun them, ridicule them, don't let a single opportunity to remind people of what a bunch of traitors they are. Of course, no sex.
"Said Descartes 'I extoll
Myself, becaues I have a soul,
and beasts do not.' Of course,
He's put Descartes before the horse."
"Said Descartes 'I extoll
Myself, becaues I have a soul,
and beasts do not.' Of course,
He's put Descartes before the horse."
"David perhaps if you spent a little less time gossiping about B list celebrites and took an interest in the community, you would see the error of your ways, not to mention how trite your life actually is."
Hmmm, the troll's voice has a familiar ring.
Our paths have crossed befor "Ken."
Many times.
"David perhaps if you spent a little less time gossiping about B list celebrites and took an interest in the community, you would see the error of your ways, not to mention how trite your life actually is."
Hmmm, the troll's voice has a familiar ring.
Our paths have crossed befor "Ken."
Many times.
Murderers as truth tellers. Who'd have thunk it? Kinda like some repug "leaders" in high places.
Murderers as truth tellers. Who'd have thunk it? Kinda like some repug "leaders" in high places.
frankly, i like david e's writing and his fablog. i appreciate the strength of his convictions and his smart way of describing often heinous things.
but in the end (no, not that end), it's ultimately about whether people can actually feel comfortable about homosexuality - not necessarily for themselves (god forbid! hah), but just to have it live next door to them, have it teach their children, repair their cars and computers, and so on.
i tend to think that as time goes on, what we're seeing toward gays is a rollback of the facade of tolerance, much as that was done for blacks during the reagan years. remember, this is when the phrase "politically correct" came into vogue, a none-too-subtle stab at those of us who would try to right wrongs of the past through whatever means necessary. the wingnuts clambered onto this phrase and rode it into the ground, but in the end, they got what they wanted - more intolerance, not less.
i think the same thing is happening with homosexuals now. it's more than just awful - it's a precursor of what's to come for EVERYONE who doesn't fit into their Mold of Acceptability.
remember the twilight zone's "number twelve looks just like you" with big valley's richard long - that's where we're headed, folks. get used to it, get a passport, or get pissed off and defiant.
me? i'm the last option.
frankly, i like david e's writing and his fablog. i appreciate the strength of his convictions and his smart way of describing often heinous things.
but in the end (no, not that end), it's ultimately about whether people can actually feel comfortable about homosexuality - not necessarily for themselves (god forbid! hah), but just to have it live next door to them, have it teach their children, repair their cars and computers, and so on.
i tend to think that as time goes on, what we're seeing toward gays is a rollback of the facade of tolerance, much as that was done for blacks during the reagan years. remember, this is when the phrase "politically correct" came into vogue, a none-too-subtle stab at those of us who would try to right wrongs of the past through whatever means necessary. the wingnuts clambered onto this phrase and rode it into the ground, but in the end, they got what they wanted - more intolerance, not less.
i think the same thing is happening with homosexuals now. it's more than just awful - it's a precursor of what's to come for EVERYONE who doesn't fit into their Mold of Acceptability.
remember the twilight zone's "number twelve looks just like you" with big valley's richard long - that's where we're headed, folks. get used to it, get a passport, or get pissed off and defiant.
me? i'm the last option.
"We only wanted to rob him because he looked well dressed and rich. But then we lynched him when we found out that his blazer wasn't a real Abercrombie, just a generic."
"We only wanted to rob him because he looked well dressed and rich. But then we lynched him when we found out that his blazer wasn't a real Abercrombie, just a generic."
I think that the motives of Matthew Shepard's killers are irrelevant. The issue was that their lawyers tried to use homophobia to get them off. Link s to contemporary sources and other "homophobia as defense" issues here.
I think that the motives of Matthew Shepard's killers are irrelevant. The issue was that their lawyers tried to use homophobia to get them off. Link s to contemporary sources and other "homophobia as defense" issues here.
Dissenter,
Gays have to pay for 9/11 because it is no longer cool to hate Blacks, Jews and (while we remain in Iraq)Arabs. But look, when it becomes uncool to hate gays the hate mongers will just move on to the next object of hatred. It is nothing personal. They need some reason to hate and gays are the "special for today".
A government that encourages masses of people to hate is Nazi, period. The wingnuts get bent out of shape with Nazi analogies, but the difference between this administration and Nazism is one of "degree" but not "kind".
There, I said it again. It makes me feel good to drive the wingnuts crazy, but here is the rub, I hate their policies, I hate their tactics, I hate most of their behavior, but I do not hate them. Why? Because the minute we start hating them, we become them. C.S. Lewis in 'Mere Christianity' expressed this idea most eloquently about the Nazis. But he also said that it was more than just OK to kill these bastards in order to prevent more deaths and in order to prevent evil from conquering the planet (my crude paraphrase).
Dissenter,
Gays have to pay for 9/11 because it is no longer cool to hate Blacks, Jews and (while we remain in Iraq)Arabs. But look, when it becomes uncool to hate gays the hate mongers will just move on to the next object of hatred. It is nothing personal. They need some reason to hate and gays are the "special for today".
A government that encourages masses of people to hate is Nazi, period. The wingnuts get bent out of shape with Nazi analogies, but the difference between this administration and Nazism is one of "degree" but not "kind".
There, I said it again. It makes me feel good to drive the wingnuts crazy, but here is the rub, I hate their policies, I hate their tactics, I hate most of their behavior, but I do not hate them. Why? Because the minute we start hating them, we become them. C.S. Lewis in 'Mere Christianity' expressed this idea most eloquently about the Nazis. But he also said that it was more than just OK to kill these bastards in order to prevent more deaths and in order to prevent evil from conquering the planet (my crude paraphrase).
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