I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Advent
Thank you, RMJ-- what a powerful message for those of us who understand Advent in a very different way from the secular world. Whatever happened to liberation theology, anyway?
Advent
Thank you, RMJ-- what a powerful message for those of us who understand Advent in a very different way from the secular world. Whatever happened to liberation theology, anyway?
Under the present pope, liberation theology was great for Poland, but not so good for Central America.
Under the present pope, liberation theology was great for Poland, but not so good for Central America.
From a non-christian view, this post is relevant because we are currently waiting. And for what, we don't know.
From a non-christian view, this post is relevant because we are currently waiting. And for what, we don't know.
Robert M. Jeffers, are you/were you a minister (you said "When I had a church")?
Robert M. Jeffers, are you/were you a minister (you said "When I had a church")?
RMJ,
You must have had a seriously cool church.
RMJ,
You must have had a seriously cool church.
I had forgotten about the weeks of Advent, RMJ. I'm waiting patiently now.
I had forgotten about the weeks of Advent, RMJ. I'm waiting patiently now.
And speaking of Joni Mitchell's "River"
there's an astounding cover of it
by -- of all people -- Robert Downey
Jr. on the Ally McBeal soundtrack.
No kidding -- it'll make you cry.
And speaking of Joni Mitchell's "River"
there's an astounding cover of it
by -- of all people -- Robert Downey
Jr. on the Ally McBeal soundtrack.
No kidding -- it'll make you cry.
Robert M. Jeffers, are you/were you a minister (you said "When I had a church")?
Was, and am; although I'm not "in a pulpit" at the moment (some would say I'm trying to turn this into one, but....)
RMJ,
You must have had a seriously cool church.
I thought so; my elderly congregation didn't. Which is why I'm no longer there, and in process of becoming an Episcopal priest (my source for this quote, by the way, is a sourcebook on Advent, part of a series for the liturgical calendar, and a Roman Catholic publication).
Robert M. Jeffers, are you/were you a minister (you said "When I had a church")?
Was, and am; although I'm not "in a pulpit" at the moment (some would say I'm trying to turn this into one, but....)
RMJ,
You must have had a seriously cool church.
I thought so; my elderly congregation didn't. Which is why I'm no longer there, and in process of becoming an Episcopal priest (my source for this quote, by the way, is a sourcebook on Advent, part of a series for the liturgical calendar, and a Roman Catholic publication).
I don't know what the context is of what you posted, but it was very moving. Maybe I am reading this totally wrong, but when the archbishop said to embrace whatever happens, to forgive the people who tortured and raped her, I see it as unchristian. To me, working for change is the christian thing to do, not accepting any horror as god's will, as something mysterious that god wants and that has a purpose even though we don't see it. To me, that is an excuse to do nothing. It's been used a lot when people in power would lose their wealth if they espoused a position against the torturers etc. This is also why I never much admired Mother Teresa, who worked among so much poverty and yet was against birth control. Why bring children into the world when they are going to die by the age of 2. That's baloney.
I don't know what the context is of what you posted, but it was very moving. Maybe I am reading this totally wrong, but when the archbishop said to embrace whatever happens, to forgive the people who tortured and raped her, I see it as unchristian. To me, working for change is the christian thing to do, not accepting any horror as god's will, as something mysterious that god wants and that has a purpose even though we don't see it. To me, that is an excuse to do nothing. It's been used a lot when people in power would lose their wealth if they espoused a position against the torturers etc. This is also why I never much admired Mother Teresa, who worked among so much poverty and yet was against birth control. Why bring children into the world when they are going to die by the age of 2. That's baloney.
I've heard that cover of River and wondered who it was. RD Jr has a new album out but I can't see me taking the time to hear it. The last thing I enjoyed of his was his mug shot on the Smoking Gun.
Not This Time George!
I've heard that cover of River and wondered who it was. RD Jr has a new album out but I can't see me taking the time to hear it. The last thing I enjoyed of his was his mug shot on the Smoking Gun.
Not This Time George!
Good post, Robert. It resonates with me. To many, Advent means watching for the next hot sale to shop.
Good post, Robert. It resonates with me. To many, Advent means watching for the next hot sale to shop.
NYMary,
I think Jeffers sneaks into my Unitarian Church on occasion. There, we are asked to Think! rather than be told exactly how thing are. For far too many *religious* folks, the mind is a terrible thing. It's all about dogma.
NYMary,
I think Jeffers sneaks into my Unitarian Church on occasion. There, we are asked to Think! rather than be told exactly how thing are. For far too many *religious* folks, the mind is a terrible thing. It's all about dogma.
righteous, bigvic --- when the dogma starts pumping, hide your wallet and open your thoughts .. or the next you hear closing will be your own mind
righteous, bigvic --- when the dogma starts pumping, hide your wallet and open your thoughts .. or the next you hear closing will be your own mind
Maybe I am reading this totally wrong, but when the archbishop said to embrace whatever happens, to forgive the people who tortured and raped her, I see it as unchristian.
The fundies believe every last moment in their lives is planned by God. It was written before they were born. So for Christians fighting against whatever is happening, would be going against god.
Maybe I am reading this totally wrong, but when the archbishop said to embrace whatever happens, to forgive the people who tortured and raped her, I see it as unchristian.
The fundies believe every last moment in their lives is planned by God. It was written before they were born. So for Christians fighting against whatever is happening, would be going against god.
I don't know what the context is of what you posted, but it was very moving.
I don't know the context either; this is all I have. It's from a "sourcebook" of liturgical material for Advent, published for Catholics and others (obviously).
I do know that I read it every year, along with an excerpt from a letter by Maura Clarke (from the same sourcebook), one of the Maryknoll sisters murdered on 12/02/80 in El Salvador. Both bring me close to tears every year.
Gotten to where it isn't Advent without 'em. So, in a fit of excess (for a guest), I had to blog one of them here.
I don't know what the context is of what you posted, but it was very moving.
I don't know the context either; this is all I have. It's from a "sourcebook" of liturgical material for Advent, published for Catholics and others (obviously).
I do know that I read it every year, along with an excerpt from a letter by Maura Clarke (from the same sourcebook), one of the Maryknoll sisters murdered on 12/02/80 in El Salvador. Both bring me close to tears every year.
Gotten to where it isn't Advent without 'em. So, in a fit of excess (for a guest), I had to blog one of them here.
he doesn't want to know?
well fuck him, then. fuck him to hell and back again, twice. Because this this reality. For millions
Blaise
he doesn't want to know?
well fuck him, then. fuck him to hell and back again, twice. Because this this reality. For millions
Blaise
Maybe I am reading this totally wrong, but when the archbishop said to embrace whatever happens, to forgive the people who tortured and raped her, I see it as unchristian.
The fundies believe every last moment in their lives is planned by God. It was written before they were born. So for Christians fighting against whatever is happening, would be going against god.
That is one way to read it. Another would be to see the priest's abortive advice to be more about hatred and resentment eating away at your own soul, so forgiveness is necessary for one's own spiritual health.
In fact, this is exactly what Nelson Mandela said he had to find it in his heart to do regarding his years in prison...
Maybe I am reading this totally wrong, but when the archbishop said to embrace whatever happens, to forgive the people who tortured and raped her, I see it as unchristian.
The fundies believe every last moment in their lives is planned by God. It was written before they were born. So for Christians fighting against whatever is happening, would be going against god.
That is one way to read it. Another would be to see the priest's abortive advice to be more about hatred and resentment eating away at your own soul, so forgiveness is necessary for one's own spiritual health.
In fact, this is exactly what Nelson Mandela said he had to find it in his heart to do regarding his years in prison...
syntallic,
Amen, Brother. Peace!
syntallic,
Amen, Brother. Peace!
Maybe I am reading this totally wrong, but when the archbishop said to embrace whatever happens, to forgive the people who tortured and raped her, I see it as unchristian.
I like to think Romero finally did, too. The break between "Christendom" and "Christianity" is there.
Maybe I am reading this totally wrong, but when the archbishop said to embrace whatever happens, to forgive the people who tortured and raped her, I see it as unchristian.
I like to think Romero finally did, too. The break between "Christendom" and "Christianity" is there.
he doesn't want to know?
well fuck him, then. fuck him to hell and back again, twice. Because this this reality. For millions
Blaise
We are all human, and all have moments of human weakeness.
he doesn't want to know?
well fuck him, then. fuck him to hell and back again, twice. Because this this reality. For millions
Blaise
We are all human, and all have moments of human weakeness.
I think Jeffers sneaks into my Unitarian Church on occasion. There, we are asked to Think! rather than be told exactly how thing are.
Wish my tiny rural town had a Unitarian church nearby. I have wanted to join for years. I am an agnostic and have read much about Unitarians and feel I would fit right in. What's wrong with thinking and challenging? Most religions seem to feel that the dumber their parishioners are, the better. Just walk and talk in lockstep.
I think Jeffers sneaks into my Unitarian Church on occasion. There, we are asked to Think! rather than be told exactly how thing are.
Wish my tiny rural town had a Unitarian church nearby. I have wanted to join for years. I am an agnostic and have read much about Unitarians and feel I would fit right in. What's wrong with thinking and challenging? Most religions seem to feel that the dumber their parishioners are, the better. Just walk and talk in lockstep.
well fuck him, then. fuck him to hell and back again, twice. Because this this reality. For millions
At some point in his life, Archbishop Romero turned from being the bishop who gave the tranquilizing assurances, to the bishop working for the poor of El Salvador.
For his trouble, he was shot to death during the Mass on March 23, 1980.
well fuck him, then. fuck him to hell and back again, twice. Because this this reality. For millions
At some point in his life, Archbishop Romero turned from being the bishop who gave the tranquilizing assurances, to the bishop working for the poor of El Salvador.
For his trouble, he was shot to death during the Mass on March 23, 1980.
Robert, are you a Catholic priest? Forgive me for being blunt and don't answer if you find the question inappropriate. I looked for your private e-mail but couldn't find it in your comments.
Robert, are you a Catholic priest? Forgive me for being blunt and don't answer if you find the question inappropriate. I looked for your private e-mail but couldn't find it in your comments.
Still waiting. Good reminder. We're not likely to have to be too patient for the shattering change.
Still waiting. Good reminder. We're not likely to have to be too patient for the shattering change.
RMJ,
The stolid nature of much dogmatic Christianity is a real problem, it seems to me. Age, complacency, conservativism... who knows where it comes from?
And remember that the Catholic Church in Latin America fought like hell for social justice, folks. Romero gave his life for it.
RMJ, were you a (gasp!) member of that rare and precious community, the tribe of Father-What-A-Waste? Oh, bestill my Catholic schoolgirl heart!
RMJ,
The stolid nature of much dogmatic Christianity is a real problem, it seems to me. Age, complacency, conservativism... who knows where it comes from?
And remember that the Catholic Church in Latin America fought like hell for social justice, folks. Romero gave his life for it.
RMJ, were you a (gasp!) member of that rare and precious community, the tribe of Father-What-A-Waste? Oh, bestill my Catholic schoolgirl heart!
Zzzzzzz . . . .
Imagine no religion . . .
Zzzzzzz . . . .
Imagine no religion . . .
Thank you for this post, RMJ. Like your others, very thoughtful, very important.
Oscar Romero was picked by the hierarchy to be Archbishop because it was thought he would go with the program. Just like Pope John XXIII he surprised the hell out of everybody by his transformation into a real, bona fide Christian.
If you don't know his story, find out. His courage was astonishing, once the transformation was complete. Week after week he broadcast sermons on radio, blasting the corrupt powers for their exploitation of the poor, using the gospel as his only guide. He quoted the words of Jesus, then blasted the government evildoers, not in vague generalities, but naming names.
He knew he would die for it. But he didn't care. Sure enough, he was murdered in his own cathedral, and perhaps it was appropriate -- in a spiritual sense -- that the moment chosen for the assault rifles to rip through the silence from the back of the church was the exact moment that he had lifted the Host, saying, "This is My Body, which is given unto you."
Thank you for this post, RMJ. Like your others, very thoughtful, very important.
Oscar Romero was picked by the hierarchy to be Archbishop because it was thought he would go with the program. Just like Pope John XXIII he surprised the hell out of everybody by his transformation into a real, bona fide Christian.
If you don't know his story, find out. His courage was astonishing, once the transformation was complete. Week after week he broadcast sermons on radio, blasting the corrupt powers for their exploitation of the poor, using the gospel as his only guide. He quoted the words of Jesus, then blasted the government evildoers, not in vague generalities, but naming names.
He knew he would die for it. But he didn't care. Sure enough, he was murdered in his own cathedral, and perhaps it was appropriate -- in a spiritual sense -- that the moment chosen for the assault rifles to rip through the silence from the back of the church was the exact moment that he had lifted the Host, saying, "This is My Body, which is given unto you."
Steve,
I sent you an email.
Chuck,
I didn't realize blogging was compulsory. We'll try to be more entertaining.
Steve,
I sent you an email.
Chuck,
I didn't realize blogging was compulsory. We'll try to be more entertaining.
Robert M. Jeffers, do you have your own blog somewhere? If so, where? If not, why not? I've really liked everything you've guest-posted here.
And Blaise, there are two times when someone says, "I don't want to know". The first one comes when someone's comfortable life is trespassed on by the reality you cite, and your "fuck him to hell" is appropriate for that. The second one comes when one has fought in the middle of the horror for a very long time and simply cannot bear to hear another outrage, particularly against a beloved colleague. At that point, one needs patience and comfort to recover to take up the fight again. Knowing what little I know about Archbishop Romero, I think his was a second kind of "I don't want to know".
Robert M. Jeffers, do you have your own blog somewhere? If so, where? If not, why not? I've really liked everything you've guest-posted here.
And Blaise, there are two times when someone says, "I don't want to know". The first one comes when someone's comfortable life is trespassed on by the reality you cite, and your "fuck him to hell" is appropriate for that. The second one comes when one has fought in the middle of the horror for a very long time and simply cannot bear to hear another outrage, particularly against a beloved colleague. At that point, one needs patience and comfort to recover to take up the fight again. Knowing what little I know about Archbishop Romero, I think his was a second kind of "I don't want to know".
Robert, are you a Catholic priest? Forgive me for being blunt and don't answer if you find the question inappropriate. I looked for your private e-mail but couldn't find it in your comments.
Gabriel
Wow. RMJ is being asked forgiveness by one of the archangels!
Impressive.
Robert, are you a Catholic priest? Forgive me for being blunt and don't answer if you find the question inappropriate. I looked for your private e-mail but couldn't find it in your comments.
Gabriel
Wow. RMJ is being asked forgiveness by one of the archangels!
Impressive.
Robt Jeffers: Some have complained here that "liberal" Christians don't speak enough about their beliefs; others think religion has no place in politics.
Faith should be a semi-private affair, perhaps practiced in a congregation, perhaps practiced as a matter of the way one's life is lived. There is no place for religion in the practice of public policy making. None.
The founders were quite clear in their concern on this issue.
Robt Jeffers: Some have complained here that "liberal" Christians don't speak enough about their beliefs; others think religion has no place in politics.
Faith should be a semi-private affair, perhaps practiced in a congregation, perhaps practiced as a matter of the way one's life is lived. There is no place for religion in the practice of public policy making. None.
The founders were quite clear in their concern on this issue.
Would that those in power here that claim the title "Christian" look to this example for inspiration.
Would that those in power here that claim the title "Christian" look to this example for inspiration.
When is Atrios coming back full time?
The guest posters are pretentious and dull.
When is Atrios coming back full time?
The guest posters are pretentious and dull.
Not to mention looking to the source of all Christian inspiration.
Not to mention looking to the source of all Christian inspiration.
Saying "yes" to life is accepting "the coincidence of opposites": up and down, right and wrong, light and dark, pain and pleasure. Many a Christian wants "up" without "down" (the perfection of paradise sans its polar opposite, the messiness of reality). They turn from the pain of existence and embrace the heroin of Heaven.
"Eternity is in love with the productions of time."
William Blake
I suspect that evangelicals/zealots will bring about changes in the "spiritual" national dialogue they had not heretofore imagined.
+++
Saying "yes" to life is accepting "the coincidence of opposites": up and down, right and wrong, light and dark, pain and pleasure. Many a Christian wants "up" without "down" (the perfection of paradise sans its polar opposite, the messiness of reality). They turn from the pain of existence and embrace the heroin of Heaven.
"Eternity is in love with the productions of time."
William Blake
I suspect that evangelicals/zealots will bring about changes in the "spiritual" national dialogue they had not heretofore imagined.
+++
What's wrong with thinking and challenging? Most religions seem to feel that the dumber their parishioners are, the better. Just walk and talk in lockstep.
puzzledwoman
Most major religions are frightened to have the "faithful" operate outside dogmatic standards for reasons of control. They lose control, they lose the purse strings and lose the arguments. Questions are not welcomed in most churches or religious institutions. It is a threat to the hierarchy.
What's wrong with thinking and challenging? Most religions seem to feel that the dumber their parishioners are, the better. Just walk and talk in lockstep.
puzzledwoman
Most major religions are frightened to have the "faithful" operate outside dogmatic standards for reasons of control. They lose control, they lose the purse strings and lose the arguments. Questions are not welcomed in most churches or religious institutions. It is a threat to the hierarchy.
Thank you for this beautiful post. Thank you from the bottom of my heart!!
As TS Eliot wrote: Humankind cannot bear too much reality.
And yet, bear it we must.
Blessings.
Thank you for this beautiful post. Thank you from the bottom of my heart!!
As TS Eliot wrote: Humankind cannot bear too much reality.
And yet, bear it we must.
Blessings.
Oops, I see RMJ is a member of the United Church of Christ.
Please forgive the embarrassing exposure of my psychic underbelly.
Oops, I see RMJ is a member of the United Church of Christ.
Please forgive the embarrassing exposure of my psychic underbelly.
If I was one of the archangels I'd just crash down on his bedroom through the roof like Emma Thompson. I wouldn't ask for permission.
If I was one of the archangels I'd just crash down on his bedroom through the roof like Emma Thompson. I wouldn't ask for permission.
Liberals all suck and hate God.
Liberals all suck and hate God.
Questions are not welcomed in most churches or religious institutions.
You sound like a bigot.
Questions are not welcomed in most churches or religious institutions.
You sound like a bigot.
If I was one of the archangels I'd just crash down on his bedroom through the roof like Emma Thompson. I wouldn't ask for permission.
Gabriel
Okay, now that is hilarious!
Liberals all suck and hate God.
And that is (unintentionally) hilarious.
If I was one of the archangels I'd just crash down on his bedroom through the roof like Emma Thompson. I wouldn't ask for permission.
Gabriel
Okay, now that is hilarious!
Liberals all suck and hate God.
And that is (unintentionally) hilarious.
You guys you have to check this out, Target is selling weed!
Link
(Click for Screenshot)
You guys you have to check this out, Target is selling weed!
Link
(Click for Screenshot)
This thread is waaay to heavy for me. I think I'll go back to the open thread where they're talking about baseball and stuff.
This thread is waaay to heavy for me. I think I'll go back to the open thread where they're talking about baseball and stuff.
Richard,
Indeed, Jesus told the prayerful to go to their closets to pray. This phoney, sanctimonious public false piousness was repugnebt to the historic reading of Jesus and the Gospels I have read.
Richard,
Indeed, Jesus told the prayerful to go to their closets to pray. This phoney, sanctimonious public false piousness was repugnebt to the historic reading of Jesus and the Gospels I have read.
Thank you, RMJ -- nice to hear from a reasonable Christian in these scary days.
Thank you, RMJ -- nice to hear from a reasonable Christian in these scary days.
From this morning's OT reading at Mass, Isiah 2:4
He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
How very un-Red-State.
From this morning's OT reading at Mass, Isiah 2:4
He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
How very un-Red-State.
You guys you have to check this out, Target is selling weed!
Yeah, Target has a fix for almost anything that ails ya:
How to Good-Bye Depression:
Be sure to the guest reviews for this product. They're most helpful.
You guys you have to check this out, Target is selling weed!
Yeah, Target has a fix for almost anything that ails ya:
How to Good-Bye Depression:
Be sure to the guest reviews for this product. They're most helpful.
Most major religions are frightened to have the "faithful" operate outside dogmatic standards for reasons of control
The moronic posts upstream confirm my suspicions.
Most major religions are frightened to have the "faithful" operate outside dogmatic standards for reasons of control
The moronic posts upstream confirm my suspicions.
"Stop it! Stop it!"
"What the hell are you getting so
upset about?" he asked her
bewilderedly in a tone of contrite
amusement. "I thought you didn't
believe in God."
"I don't," she sobbed, burting
violently into tears. "But the God
I don't believe in is a good God, a
just God, a merciful God. He's not
the mean and stupid God you make
him out to be."
"Stop it! Stop it!"
"What the hell are you getting so
upset about?" he asked her
bewilderedly in a tone of contrite
amusement. "I thought you didn't
believe in God."
"I don't," she sobbed, burting
violently into tears. "But the God
I don't believe in is a good God, a
just God, a merciful God. He's not
the mean and stupid God you make
him out to be."
I saw posted on a roadside sign the title of the Sunday message at a church in Allentown this week:
"Waiting for war to end"
I said to my wife: "Shouldn't Christians be working for war to end?"
She grunted her assent as we two atheists/agnostics drove on....
I saw posted on a roadside sign the title of the Sunday message at a church in Allentown this week:
"Waiting for war to end"
I said to my wife: "Shouldn't Christians be working for war to end?"
She grunted her assent as we two atheists/agnostics drove on....
Gabriel--
Hardly an intrusive question. I'm currently ordained through the United Church of Christ, but I'm in the process of becoming a priest in the Episcopal church.
Which explains why, given the keys to the Eschaton liquor cabinet, I pour strange new drinks and violate all the expectations of a guest host....
Gabriel--
Hardly an intrusive question. I'm currently ordained through the United Church of Christ, but I'm in the process of becoming a priest in the Episcopal church.
Which explains why, given the keys to the Eschaton liquor cabinet, I pour strange new drinks and violate all the expectations of a guest host....
Liberals all suck and hate God.
God is not dead.
American morons dug him up, put him on a table with electrodes attached to his head, and resurrected him as a monster.
Liberals all suck and hate God.
God is not dead.
American morons dug him up, put him on a table with electrodes attached to his head, and resurrected him as a monster.
This thread is waaay to heavy for me.
Yep, you and all the other nitwits that tell me how God thinks.
This thread is waaay to heavy for me.
Yep, you and all the other nitwits that tell me how God thinks.
There is no God Bob!
Grow up!
There is no God Bob!
Grow up!
religion is terrorism above all.
cloaked in stupidity.
religion is terrorism above all.
cloaked in stupidity.
The idea of a "conservative Christian" really gets my bloomers in a bunch. Jesus Christ "H"imself said he had come to change the Law.
HELLO!
The idea of a "conservative Christian" really gets my bloomers in a bunch. Jesus Christ "H"imself said he had come to change the Law.
HELLO!
I'm curious, RMJ, why the switch from Church of CHrist to Espicopalian? I don't have any axe to grind here, just curious.
I'm curious, RMJ, why the switch from Church of CHrist to Espicopalian? I don't have any axe to grind here, just curious.
Yep, you and all the other nitwits that tell me how God thinks.
Pardon? I don't know much about God or religion, and all I really want to talk about are movies and stuff. I apologize if I offended you.
Yep, you and all the other nitwits that tell me how God thinks.
Pardon? I don't know much about God or religion, and all I really want to talk about are movies and stuff. I apologize if I offended you.
Christendom embodies and enables power; Christianity challenges it. That's why separation of church and state is more important for church than state.
The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.
Christendom embodies and enables power; Christianity challenges it. That's why separation of church and state is more important for church than state.
The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.
Gee...where did all the usual
suspects go??...havin' a hard
time retorting are we??
Gee...where did all the usual
suspects go??...havin' a hard
time retorting are we??
Pardon? I don't know much about God or religion, and all I really want to talk about are movies and stuff. I apologize if I offended you.
My dear, if you are sincere, there are many avenues for you to pursue.
Pardon? I don't know much about God or religion, and all I really want to talk about are movies and stuff. I apologize if I offended you.
My dear, if you are sincere, there are many avenues for you to pursue.
I'm curious, RMJ, why the switch from Church of CHrist to Espicopalian?
Ah the urge to bow down in front of repitition and ritual. The American liberal tires of his threadbare and culturally austere form of Protestantism and finally submits to the urge to bow down in front of the Roman church. And yet, he lacks the character, the perverse quality of submission that would allow him to abase himself in front of the Vatican so he choses what is, in the end, a pallid American substitute, a pallid Anglo Saxon substitute that satifies his need for ritual and repeitition but leaves him equally famished for the rule of law, that iron hand of discipline behind the velvet glove beneath the vicar of Christ's ring he so longs to kiss.
I'm curious, RMJ, why the switch from Church of CHrist to Espicopalian?
Ah the urge to bow down in front of repitition and ritual. The American liberal tires of his threadbare and culturally austere form of Protestantism and finally submits to the urge to bow down in front of the Roman church. And yet, he lacks the character, the perverse quality of submission that would allow him to abase himself in front of the Vatican so he choses what is, in the end, a pallid American substitute, a pallid Anglo Saxon substitute that satifies his need for ritual and repeitition but leaves him equally famished for the rule of law, that iron hand of discipline behind the velvet glove beneath the vicar of Christ's ring he so longs to kiss.
I just finished reading "On Forgiveness" by Richard Holloway.
He says forgiveness is something we do for ourselves because, without it, we are perpetually frozen in a moment in time. By refusing to forgive (or not at least being open to the possibility), we have allowed the person who hurt us to rob us of our future.
I just finished reading "On Forgiveness" by Richard Holloway.
He says forgiveness is something we do for ourselves because, without it, we are perpetually frozen in a moment in time. By refusing to forgive (or not at least being open to the possibility), we have allowed the person who hurt us to rob us of our future.
pallid Anglo Saxon substitute that satifies his need for ritual and repeitition but leaves him equally famished for the rule of law, that iron hand of discipline behind the velvet glove beneath the vicar of Christ's ring he so longs to kiss.
Or maybe he just doesn't want to hang out with the pedos.
pallid Anglo Saxon substitute that satifies his need for ritual and repeitition but leaves him equally famished for the rule of law, that iron hand of discipline behind the velvet glove beneath the vicar of Christ's ring he so longs to kiss.
Or maybe he just doesn't want to hang out with the pedos.
Religious Leaders Clash on 'Meet the Press'
Mr. Sharpton, a former Democratic candidate for president, said: "We're talking about whether we have the right to impose what we believe on people that may disagree with us. Even God gives you a choice of heaven and hell. We don't have a right to tell people we're going to force them to live in a way that we want them to live and, therefore, they're going to heaven."
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/2...html?
oref=login
Sharpton was the best. Of course the rightous wing nuts were shrill and scary.
Also is there a place in the dem party for religous leaders. What if Martin Luther King were alive today, would he be comfortable with what you think the dem party is/should be? What about Jesse Jackson and Billy Graham, are they under your big tent?
Mark Shields:
"How many of today's liberals recall that the greatest U.S. political crusade of the 20th century -- to legally end more than a century of officially sanctioned segregation of the races -- was led by the Southern Christian Leadership Counsel?
Do we need to be reminded that the movement's courageous leaders who put their own lives at risk included the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., the Rev. Andrew Young and the Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth?
In the 19th century, the crusade to abolish human slavery was led by Protestant men of the cloth. Just a generation ago, in the front ranks of the movement to stop the U.S. war in Vietnam -- so much endorsed and admired by liberals -- were ministers, rabbis, priests, nuns and prominent religious lay men and women."
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLIT...icit/
index.html
Do we need to be reminded, maybe so.
More Shields:
"A word to my fellow liberals: We cannot honor and praise the involvement of men and women of faith in our nation's political life only when that involvement is in support of a political objective we embrace."
Religious Leaders Clash on 'Meet the Press'
Mr. Sharpton, a former Democratic candidate for president, said: "We're talking about whether we have the right to impose what we believe on people that may disagree with us. Even God gives you a choice of heaven and hell. We don't have a right to tell people we're going to force them to live in a way that we want them to live and, therefore, they're going to heaven."
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/2...html?
oref=login
Sharpton was the best. Of course the rightous wing nuts were shrill and scary.
Also is there a place in the dem party for religous leaders. What if Martin Luther King were alive today, would he be comfortable with what you think the dem party is/should be? What about Jesse Jackson and Billy Graham, are they under your big tent?
Mark Shields:
"How many of today's liberals recall that the greatest U.S. political crusade of the 20th century -- to legally end more than a century of officially sanctioned segregation of the races -- was led by the Southern Christian Leadership Counsel?
Do we need to be reminded that the movement's courageous leaders who put their own lives at risk included the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., the Rev. Andrew Young and the Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth?
In the 19th century, the crusade to abolish human slavery was led by Protestant men of the cloth. Just a generation ago, in the front ranks of the movement to stop the U.S. war in Vietnam -- so much endorsed and admired by liberals -- were ministers, rabbis, priests, nuns and prominent religious lay men and women."
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLIT...icit/
index.html
Do we need to be reminded, maybe so.
More Shields:
"A word to my fellow liberals: We cannot honor and praise the involvement of men and women of faith in our nation's political life only when that involvement is in support of a political objective we embrace."
Thanks so much for the Robert M. Jeffers. I've been reading Galeano's book Open Veins of Latin America and have been so powerfully connected to the suffering of the people of Latin America.
Knowing the cruel history of the Church in action in Latin America, thanks to opportunists who claimed some holiness, it must have been very hard often for Oscar Romero to have lived with himself as Archbishop.
The great comfort it seems to me is that while we, even the best of us, can bear to only briefly imagine the suffering of others, that suffering is known and healed in the wholeness of God's love. I know that love through Christ, but others know the same love through Allah, Shivah, Jaweh...
If I hadn't experienced the power of that love, I couldn't bear the world at all. Certainty of that Love has been an experience that came, and continues to come as a gift, originally hardly asked for or expected.
And isn't that the nature of Advent...to be watching for the gift we don't even know how to ask for.
It's very beautiful understood this way, and so very different from the hype and hooey in the malls and on the radio.
Thanks so much for the Robert M. Jeffers. I've been reading Galeano's book Open Veins of Latin America and have been so powerfully connected to the suffering of the people of Latin America.
Knowing the cruel history of the Church in action in Latin America, thanks to opportunists who claimed some holiness, it must have been very hard often for Oscar Romero to have lived with himself as Archbishop.
The great comfort it seems to me is that while we, even the best of us, can bear to only briefly imagine the suffering of others, that suffering is known and healed in the wholeness of God's love. I know that love through Christ, but others know the same love through Allah, Shivah, Jaweh...
If I hadn't experienced the power of that love, I couldn't bear the world at all. Certainty of that Love has been an experience that came, and continues to come as a gift, originally hardly asked for or expected.
And isn't that the nature of Advent...to be watching for the gift we don't even know how to ask for.
It's very beautiful understood this way, and so very different from the hype and hooey in the malls and on the radio.
Frederick Nietzche
If you are going to misrepresent the position of an insightful philosopher, at least learn how to spell his name.
Frederick Nietzche
If you are going to misrepresent the position of an insightful philosopher, at least learn how to spell his name.
Yes, I know that he later was killed for standing up for human rights.
Fuck him still. He told a woman who had been raped that he didn't want to know, didn't want to hear what she was saying. Then he made HER comfort HIM
Not a HERO.
Yes, I know that he later was killed for standing up for human rights.
Fuck him still. He told a woman who had been raped that he didn't want to know, didn't want to hear what she was saying. Then he made HER comfort HIM
Not a HERO.
If you are going to misrepresent the position of an insightful philosopher, at least learn how to spell his name.
rorschach | Email | Homepage | 11.28.04 - 10:46 pm | #
Ah yes the equally American urge to submit to dry and meaningless formalism.
I will change the spelling of my name to match your parched English speaking cultural standards but I ask you.
When will we liberate ourselves from this kind of slavery and make our own rules, aesthetic, moral, and, indeed, gramatical?
If you are going to misrepresent the position of an insightful philosopher, at least learn how to spell his name.
rorschach | Email | Homepage | 11.28.04 - 10:46 pm | #
Ah yes the equally American urge to submit to dry and meaningless formalism.
I will change the spelling of my name to match your parched English speaking cultural standards but I ask you.
When will we liberate ourselves from this kind of slavery and make our own rules, aesthetic, moral, and, indeed, gramatical?
Yes, I know that he later was killed for standing up for human rights.
Fuck him still. He told a woman who had been raped that he didn't want to know, didn't want to hear what she was saying. Then he made HER comfort HIM
Not a HERO.
We are all human, and all have moments of weakness.
And your insistent need to malign him--after he recognized his weakness and mended his ways to the extent that he was killed fighting for good--shows much more about you than it does about him.
And it ain't pretty.
Yes, I know that he later was killed for standing up for human rights.
Fuck him still. He told a woman who had been raped that he didn't want to know, didn't want to hear what she was saying. Then he made HER comfort HIM
Not a HERO.
We are all human, and all have moments of weakness.
And your insistent need to malign him--after he recognized his weakness and mended his ways to the extent that he was killed fighting for good--shows much more about you than it does about him.
And it ain't pretty.
First and foremost, thanks for a great post. Thanks especially for making the distinction between Christianity and Christendom. I would personally actually make a further distinction between both of the above and Christ, YMMV.
"Maybe I am reading this totally wrong, but when the archbishop said to embrace whatever happens, to forgive the people who tortured and raped her, I see it as unchristian"
As I understand Christ's teaching, forgiveness is essential. It appears to be one of the means by which grace can enter an otherwise bad situation.
"Embrace whatever happens" is, I think, a different story. I don't think that means that you're required to simply absorb abuse, of any kind. Rape, torture, and murder should obviously be resisted, by force if needed, and I think that's consistent with Christ's teachings and behavior. He whipped the moneychangers out of the temple, and advised his disciples to sell their coats and buy themselves swords when it became apparent that he was about to be betrayed.
Anger at, and resistance to, injustice and abuse, however, don't have to include hate.
As a practical matter, I am not qualified to offer an object lesson on any of this to anyone.
Cheers -
First and foremost, thanks for a great post. Thanks especially for making the distinction between Christianity and Christendom. I would personally actually make a further distinction between both of the above and Christ, YMMV.
"Maybe I am reading this totally wrong, but when the archbishop said to embrace whatever happens, to forgive the people who tortured and raped her, I see it as unchristian"
As I understand Christ's teaching, forgiveness is essential. It appears to be one of the means by which grace can enter an otherwise bad situation.
"Embrace whatever happens" is, I think, a different story. I don't think that means that you're required to simply absorb abuse, of any kind. Rape, torture, and murder should obviously be resisted, by force if needed, and I think that's consistent with Christ's teachings and behavior. He whipped the moneychangers out of the temple, and advised his disciples to sell their coats and buy themselves swords when it became apparent that he was about to be betrayed.
Anger at, and resistance to, injustice and abuse, however, don't have to include hate.
As a practical matter, I am not qualified to offer an object lesson on any of this to anyone.
Cheers -
Robert M. Jeffers, do you have your own blog somewhere? If so, where? If not, why not? I've really liked everything you've guest-posted here.
No. (see next door). Laziness. Thank you. It's harder than writing a sermon every week. Which was hard enough.
I'm curious, RMJ, why the switch from Church of CHrist to Espicopalian? I don't have any axe to grind here, just curious.
Long and circuitous travel from non-tradition to tradition. Discovered liturgy in seminary (Lutheran background of the UCC, through its German Evangelical roots), loved it. Probably just a love of language, nurtured in first grad school experience (English major; should be a charter member of P.O.E.M.)
A longer explanation than that, actually; but it's part of what I shorthand as the inevitability. Seems to have come with the territory, sort of like loving my wife. Can't explain it, it's just there.
That, and my opinion of the state of the UCC, which I won't share. That gets messy.
Robert M. Jeffers, do you have your own blog somewhere? If so, where? If not, why not? I've really liked everything you've guest-posted here.
No. (see next door). Laziness. Thank you. It's harder than writing a sermon every week. Which was hard enough.
I'm curious, RMJ, why the switch from Church of CHrist to Espicopalian? I don't have any axe to grind here, just curious.
Long and circuitous travel from non-tradition to tradition. Discovered liturgy in seminary (Lutheran background of the UCC, through its German Evangelical roots), loved it. Probably just a love of language, nurtured in first grad school experience (English major; should be a charter member of P.O.E.M.)
A longer explanation than that, actually; but it's part of what I shorthand as the inevitability. Seems to have come with the territory, sort of like loving my wife. Can't explain it, it's just there.
That, and my opinion of the state of the UCC, which I won't share. That gets messy.
Once again, I find myself torn between wanting to share thoughts about something which interests me with intelligent people, and utter disgust at the narrow and simplistic interpretations some insist upon.
I'm sorry. I can't stay on "Fuck Archbishop Romero" thread.
Goodbye.
Once again, I find myself torn between wanting to share thoughts about something which interests me with intelligent people, and utter disgust at the narrow and simplistic interpretations some insist upon.
I'm sorry. I can't stay on "Fuck Archbishop Romero" thread.
Goodbye.
If you are going to misrepresent the position of an insightful philosopher, at least learn how to spell his name.
rorschach
Did you see the movie "A Fish Called Wanda"? Heh! The misuse of philosophers was vry funny. The Kevin Klein charachter was a riot.
If you are going to misrepresent the position of an insightful philosopher, at least learn how to spell his name.
rorschach
Did you see the movie "A Fish Called Wanda"? Heh! The misuse of philosophers was vry funny. The Kevin Klein charachter was a riot.
Robert, your posts are like a cold bucket of water in my face. Thank you for that.
Robert, your posts are like a cold bucket of water in my face. Thank you for that.
Discovered liturgy in seminary (Lutheran background of the UCC, through its German Evangelical roots), loved it.
Ah the Lutheran clergy. All the perversians of Rome filtered through the constriction of a German spinster's girdle.
Save me from such a church.
Discovered liturgy in seminary (Lutheran background of the UCC, through its German Evangelical roots), loved it.
Ah the Lutheran clergy. All the perversians of Rome filtered through the constriction of a German spinster's girdle.
Save me from such a church.
When will we liberate ourselves from this kind of slavery and make our own rules, aesthetic, moral, and, indeed, gramatical?
Uh, you mean phonological and linquistic.
And you obviously aren't familiar with Chomsksy's theories of "deep grammar." Which were old news when I was in college, 30 years ago.
When will we liberate ourselves from this kind of slavery and make our own rules, aesthetic, moral, and, indeed, gramatical?
Uh, you mean phonological and linquistic.
And you obviously aren't familiar with Chomsksy's theories of "deep grammar." Which were old news when I was in college, 30 years ago.
Nitche--
You have to learn the rules before you can meaningfully break them.
As Coppolla told Hopper: Learn your lines, THEN forget them.
Anyway, I thought that dry formalism was some sort of French affliction. We Americans are all pragmatic and shit. See James.
I was primarily objecting to your foolish attack on RMJ, who is a thousand times as insightful as you can dream to be.
Nitche--
You have to learn the rules before you can meaningfully break them.
As Coppolla told Hopper: Learn your lines, THEN forget them.
Anyway, I thought that dry formalism was some sort of French affliction. We Americans are all pragmatic and shit. See James.
I was primarily objecting to your foolish attack on RMJ, who is a thousand times as insightful as you can dream to be.
"That, and my opinion of the state of the UCC, which I won't share. That gets messy."
Oh, do, please. I love to hear good gossip. 
"That, and my opinion of the state of the UCC, which I won't share. That gets messy."
Oh, do, please. I love to hear good gossip.
I reiterate...Where's the usual gang??
Don't tell me you're going to roll
over and go south?
I reiterate...Where's the usual gang??
Don't tell me you're going to roll
over and go south?
RMJ--I have to say, I like the idea of the "gramatical" versus the "linquistic."
RMJ--I have to say, I like the idea of the "gramatical" versus the "linquistic."
Susie-- just finished reading "On Forgiveness" by Richard Holloway.
He says forgiveness is something we do for ourselves because, without it, we are perpetually frozen in a moment in time. By refusing to forgive (or not at least being open to the possibility), we have allowed the person who hurt us to rob us of our future.
Interesting...I was talking with a friend this evening who told me about a talk Richard Rohrer gave where he urged people not to be so planned and committed, so burdened by debt that there was no hope of spontaneity, no hope of the surprise moment of transformation in the future.
His point had to do with how our fiscal decisions now (use of credit spending etc) and how are anxiety about the future cut us off from the possiblity of God breaking in to the moment and pulling the rug out from under our feet. (If God urged most Americans to go and prophesy to Ninevah, I suppose we'd need to pay off our Visa bill first).
Anyway, all that said, it's quite interesting how the notion of debt forgiveness is also ( thinking here of impoverished nations) is an effort to free a nation that is frozen in a moment in time. Now that most of these nations were so frozen thanks to the policies of the World Bank who want them to remain frozen, who want the whole game set up so the winning countries can continue to win looks all too clear.
Just sort of improvising on the theme you raised...very interesting food for thought.
Susie-- just finished reading "On Forgiveness" by Richard Holloway.
He says forgiveness is something we do for ourselves because, without it, we are perpetually frozen in a moment in time. By refusing to forgive (or not at least being open to the possibility), we have allowed the person who hurt us to rob us of our future.
Interesting...I was talking with a friend this evening who told me about a talk Richard Rohrer gave where he urged people not to be so planned and committed, so burdened by debt that there was no hope of spontaneity, no hope of the surprise moment of transformation in the future.
His point had to do with how our fiscal decisions now (use of credit spending etc) and how are anxiety about the future cut us off from the possiblity of God breaking in to the moment and pulling the rug out from under our feet. (If God urged most Americans to go and prophesy to Ninevah, I suppose we'd need to pay off our Visa bill first).
Anyway, all that said, it's quite interesting how the notion of debt forgiveness is also ( thinking here of impoverished nations) is an effort to free a nation that is frozen in a moment in time. Now that most of these nations were so frozen thanks to the policies of the World Bank who want them to remain frozen, who want the whole game set up so the winning countries can continue to win looks all too clear.
Just sort of improvising on the theme you raised...very interesting food for thought.
And you obviously aren't familiar with Chomsksy's theories of "deep grammar." Which were old news when I was in college, 30 years ago.
Herr Chomsky indeed.
Herr Chomsky divests my insights of their moral and spiritual dimension, throws centuries of torment and struggle into a pot and comes out with the witch's brew of linguistics.
No suprise that Herr Chomsky could not bear the weight of his empty lingustical pedagogy and gave way to the impulse for radical leftist politics and faux Christian uplift.
And you obviously aren't familiar with Chomsksy's theories of "deep grammar." Which were old news when I was in college, 30 years ago.
Herr Chomsky indeed.
Herr Chomsky divests my insights of their moral and spiritual dimension, throws centuries of torment and struggle into a pot and comes out with the witch's brew of linguistics.
No suprise that Herr Chomsky could not bear the weight of his empty lingustical pedagogy and gave way to the impulse for radical leftist politics and faux Christian uplift.
Thanks for making me cry. Great post. What a world.
Thanks for making me cry. Great post. What a world.
I'm sorry. I can't stay on "Fuck Archbishop Romero" thread.
Goodbye.
Argh. That's sad enough to make me say goodnight, too.
I'm sorry. I can't stay on "Fuck Archbishop Romero" thread.
Goodbye.
Argh. That's sad enough to make me say goodnight, too.
This is the first time in a long time I've seen a positive depiction of faith in a major left-leaning context.
Thank you, RMJ.
I know you're somewhere in Texas. Bless you in all your endeavors.
Liberation theology.
An idea whose time is upon us again, perhaps?
A rough beast slouches toward Bethlehem, again, from the direction of Baghdad in this season of watching and waiting.
The words of Christ, particularly in the Sermon on the Mount, ought to be the bread and butter of the left. They are the originating authority for the notion of "speaking truth to power."
This is the first time in a long time I've seen a positive depiction of faith in a major left-leaning context.
Thank you, RMJ.
I know you're somewhere in Texas. Bless you in all your endeavors.
Liberation theology.
An idea whose time is upon us again, perhaps?
A rough beast slouches toward Bethlehem, again, from the direction of Baghdad in this season of watching and waiting.
The words of Christ, particularly in the Sermon on the Mount, ought to be the bread and butter of the left. They are the originating authority for the notion of "speaking truth to power."
Whatever became of Roberto D' Aubuisson? Is ARENA still active in Salvadoran politics? What became of liberation theology?
Whatever became of Roberto D' Aubuisson? Is ARENA still active in Salvadoran politics? What became of liberation theology?
Herr Chomsky? A faux Christian?
Wow. You truly are a moron. Or simply delusional.
Herr Chomsky? A faux Christian?
Wow. You truly are a moron. Or simply delusional.
Interesting...I was talking with a friend this evening who told me about a talk Richard Rohrer gave where he urged people not to be so planned and committed, so burdened by debt that there was no hope of spontaneity, no hope of the surprise moment of transformation in the future.
Isaiah at one point urged Israel to "Come, by wine without money, food without price."
Always enjoyed using that among die-hard capitalists. I'd point out that we were told by the prophet (the "voice of God") to buy, but without money, and then ask, how do we buy food that isn't being charged for?
You can see why I need to stay out of pulpits and just write.....
Interesting...I was talking with a friend this evening who told me about a talk Richard Rohrer gave where he urged people not to be so planned and committed, so burdened by debt that there was no hope of spontaneity, no hope of the surprise moment of transformation in the future.
Isaiah at one point urged Israel to "Come, by wine without money, food without price."
Always enjoyed using that among die-hard capitalists. I'd point out that we were told by the prophet (the "voice of God") to buy, but without money, and then ask, how do we buy food that isn't being charged for?
You can see why I need to stay out of pulpits and just write.....
I don't know about ARENA, but
D'Aubisson's long dead, isn't he?
I don't know about ARENA, but
D'Aubisson's long dead, isn't he?
Or a troll, rorschach. And you bit the hook. Tsk.
Friedrich Nietzsche, you were an idiot when you were alive, and you're still an idiot. Bugger off, lad.
Or a troll, rorschach. And you bit the hook. Tsk.
Friedrich Nietzsche, you were an idiot when you were alive, and you're still an idiot. Bugger off, lad.
Wow. You truly are a moron. Or simply delusional.
Delusional is just another word for visionary says the opium addict.
Opium is just another word for religion says the faux Christian Marx.
And down we spiral into meaningless social uplift, absurd dialectical materialism.
Wow. You truly are a moron. Or simply delusional.
Delusional is just another word for visionary says the opium addict.
Opium is just another word for religion says the faux Christian Marx.
And down we spiral into meaningless social uplift, absurd dialectical materialism.
You can see why I need to stay out of pulpits and just write.....
I can indeed.
But "just" write? To describe what you do?
I call bullshit on that self-deprecration!
You can see why I need to stay out of pulpits and just write.....
I can indeed.
But "just" write? To describe what you do?
I call bullshit on that self-deprecration!
Or a troll, rorschach. And you bit the hook. Tsk.
Friedrich Nietzsche, you were an idiot when you were alive, and you're still an idiot. Bugger off, lad.
Or a troll, rorschach. And you bit the hook. Tsk.
Friedrich Nietzsche, you were an idiot when you were alive, and you're still an idiot. Bugger off, lad.
Troll is just another word for madman, that same madman crying out in the marketplace. GOD IS DEAD!!! WE HAVE KILLED HIM!!!
Troll is just another word for madman, that same madman crying out in the marketplace. GOD IS DEAD!!! WE HAVE KILLED HIM!!!
The govenment has no business being involved in religion but religion definitely has no business standing aside for this round of abasement and abuse on the part of the government. The grim part of being a Christian is loving with your eyes wide open. Telling truth to power is an absolute requirement but it must be done while the loving goes on. Living in the tension of ambiguity is a bitch, isn't it?
Welcome to the family, Robert.
The govenment has no business being involved in religion but religion definitely has no business standing aside for this round of abasement and abuse on the part of the government. The grim part of being a Christian is loving with your eyes wide open. Telling truth to power is an absolute requirement but it must be done while the loving goes on. Living in the tension of ambiguity is a bitch, isn't it?
Welcome to the family, Robert.
Isaiah at one point urged Israel to "Come, by wine without money, food without price."
I just used those words from Isaiah as the opener to the Christmas appeal letter for the community organization I work for. Wonderful to see you using it here.
To me, the give and take, the face to face exchange of people engaged in the work of taking care of each other
is the food and wine, the eucharist of life.
And at its best, although not face to face, it's what I find here.
Isaiah at one point urged Israel to "Come, by wine without money, food without price."
I just used those words from Isaiah as the opener to the Christmas appeal letter for the community organization I work for. Wonderful to see you using it here.
To me, the give and take, the face to face exchange of people engaged in the work of taking care of each other
is the food and wine, the eucharist of life.
And at its best, although not face to face, it's what I find here.
And thus again I lick, I lick my left nut, which tastes of strawberry jam, oddly. Testicle film is just another word for my diet, which is plangent, as opposed to the nondialectical binomials of Rome, or Branson, Missouri.
Are you not all impressed with how intelligent I am pretending to be?
And thus again I lick, I lick my left nut, which tastes of strawberry jam, oddly. Testicle film is just another word for my diet, which is plangent, as opposed to the nondialectical binomials of Rome, or Branson, Missouri.
Are you not all impressed with how intelligent I am pretending to be?
The govenment has no business being involved in religion but religion definitely has no business standing aside for this round of abasement and abuse on the part of the government. The grim part of being a Christian is loving with your eyes wide open. Telling truth to power is an absolute requirement but it must be done while the loving goes on. Living in the tension of ambiguity is a bitch, isn't it?
Welcome to the family, Robert.
The govenment has no business being involved in religion but religion definitely has no business standing aside for this round of abasement and abuse on the part of the government. The grim part of being a Christian is loving with your eyes wide open. Telling truth to power is an absolute requirement but it must be done while the loving goes on. Living in the tension of ambiguity is a bitch, isn't it?
Welcome to the family, Robert.
Robert, I hope you'll consider setting up your own 'blog. I've really enjoyed your contributions to Eschaton.
Robert, I hope you'll consider setting up your own 'blog. I've really enjoyed your contributions to Eschaton.
Yes, it looks like D'Aubuisson died in '92.
Yes, it looks like D'Aubuisson died in '92.
And you tsk me, Bill the Cat?
I am an atheist, and I see the value that can come of religion, and so I defended it against someone proffering offensive condemnations of our guest host.
I stand by my actions.
But yes, he's a troll and will be referred to by me only in the 3rd person forthwith.
And you tsk me, Bill the Cat?
I am an atheist, and I see the value that can come of religion, and so I defended it against someone proffering offensive condemnations of our guest host.
I stand by my actions.
But yes, he's a troll and will be referred to by me only in the 3rd person forthwith.
A wildly OT comment, so ignore it as you will, but this whole thing kinda freaked me out, because Libya was supposed to be the success story, right?
Our invasion of Iraq scared Gadhafi enough that he disarmed, right?
Then there's this:
Authorities hunting traffickers in nuclear weapons technology recently uncovered an audacious plan to deliver a complete uranium enrichment plant to Libya.
...
Details of the plot began to emerge in September, when police found the elements of a two-storey steel processing system for the enrichment plant in a factory outside Johannesburg. They were packed in 11 freight containers for shipment to Libya.
South African officials will say only that they discovered nuclear components. It appears, however, that the massive system was designed to operate 1000 centrifuges for enriching uranium.
Once assembled in Libya, the plant could have produced enough weapons-grade uranium to manufacture several nuclear bombs a year. Delivery of the plant would have greatly accelerated Libya's efforts to develop nuclear weapons.
A wildly OT comment, so ignore it as you will, but this whole thing kinda freaked me out, because Libya was supposed to be the success story, right?
Our invasion of Iraq scared Gadhafi enough that he disarmed, right?
Then there's this:
Authorities hunting traffickers in nuclear weapons technology recently uncovered an audacious plan to deliver a complete uranium enrichment plant to Libya.
...
Details of the plot began to emerge in September, when police found the elements of a two-storey steel processing system for the enrichment plant in a factory outside Johannesburg. They were packed in 11 freight containers for shipment to Libya.
South African officials will say only that they discovered nuclear components. It appears, however, that the massive system was designed to operate 1000 centrifuges for enriching uranium.
Once assembled in Libya, the plant could have produced enough weapons-grade uranium to manufacture several nuclear bombs a year. Delivery of the plant would have greatly accelerated Libya's efforts to develop nuclear weapons.
I've enjoyed your posts as well. If you don't want the responsibility of your own blog, you should consider joining a group blog and post once a week or so. I'm sure you'd be welcome at The American Street. Send me a note if you're interested and I'll talk to Kevin about it. patriotboyATcharter.net
I've enjoyed your posts as well. If you don't want the responsibility of your own blog, you should consider joining a group blog and post once a week or so. I'm sure you'd be welcome at The American Street. Send me a note if you're interested and I'll talk to Kevin about it. patriotboyATcharter.net
Consider the tsk withdrawn, rorschach.
But responding to obvious trolls is counter-productive, as is getting mad at them and leaving the discussion. That only encourages them. I can say this even though I do both those things at times.
Consider the tsk withdrawn, rorschach.
But responding to obvious trolls is counter-productive, as is getting mad at them and leaving the discussion. That only encourages them. I can say this even though I do both those things at times.
Yeah, Bill, I know. It wasn't entirely obvious that FN was just completely full of shit from his early posts, just that he was virulently anti-religion, a position that I can understand and feel should be addressed.
But, I was wrong. He's a lost cause.
Plus, he hasn't a clue what the actual FN meant. Much less Chomsky.
Yeah, Bill, I know. It wasn't entirely obvious that FN was just completely full of shit from his early posts, just that he was virulently anti-religion, a position that I can understand and feel should be addressed.
But, I was wrong. He's a lost cause.
Plus, he hasn't a clue what the actual FN meant. Much less Chomsky.
"He lowers his glance, buries his head in his hands. He shakes his head, denying it all, and says: 'No, I don't want to know.'
" '1 don't want to know,' he says, and his voice cracks.
Because there is darkness — and it is horrible and all so real — we begin this season with lament saying, “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.” (Isaiah 64: 5-6)
well fuck him, then. fuck him to hell and back again, twice. Because this this reality. For millions.
Yes, I know that he later was killed for standing up for human rights.
Fuck him still. He told a woman who had been raped that he didn't want to know, didn't want to hear what she was saying. Then he made HER comfort HIM
Not a HERO
baise | Email | Homepage | 11.28.04 - 10:47 pm | #
Once again, I find myself torn between wanting to share thoughts about something which interests me with intelligent people, and utter disgust at the narrow and simplistic interpretations some insist upon.
I'm sorry. I can't stay on "Fuck Archbishop Romero" thread.
Goodbye.
NYMary | Email | Homepage | 11.28.04 - 10:51 pm | #
Argh. That's sad enough to make me say goodnight, too.
Robert M. Jeffers | Email | Homepage | 11.28.04 - 10:56 pm | #
Not wanting to face the darkness indeed.
"He lowers his glance, buries his head in his hands. He shakes his head, denying it all, and says: 'No, I don't want to know.'
" '1 don't want to know,' he says, and his voice cracks.
Because there is darkness — and it is horrible and all so real — we begin this season with lament saying, “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.” (Isaiah 64: 5-6)
well fuck him, then. fuck him to hell and back again, twice. Because this this reality. For millions.
Yes, I know that he later was killed for standing up for human rights.
Fuck him still. He told a woman who had been raped that he didn't want to know, didn't want to hear what she was saying. Then he made HER comfort HIM
Not a HERO
baise | Email | Homepage | 11.28.04 - 10:47 pm | #
Once again, I find myself torn between wanting to share thoughts about something which interests me with intelligent people, and utter disgust at the narrow and simplistic interpretations some insist upon.
I'm sorry. I can't stay on "Fuck Archbishop Romero" thread.
Goodbye.
NYMary | Email | Homepage | 11.28.04 - 10:51 pm | #
Argh. That's sad enough to make me say goodnight, too.
Robert M. Jeffers | Email | Homepage | 11.28.04 - 10:56 pm | #
Not wanting to face the darkness indeed.
Seriously, RMJ, you should have an outlet for your writing. You are good at it, and patriotboy's suggestion is excellent.
Seriously, RMJ, you should have an outlet for your writing. You are good at it, and patriotboy's suggestion is excellent.
The govenment has no business being involved in religion but religion definitely has no business standing aside for this round of abasement and abuse on the part of the government.
I hope you aren't claiming that's happened in the US in the last 100 or so years.
Other than churches that use drugs in their scarement that is.
The govenment has no business being involved in religion but religion definitely has no business standing aside for this round of abasement and abuse on the part of the government.
I hope you aren't claiming that's happened in the US in the last 100 or so years.
Other than churches that use drugs in their scarement that is.
robert - I was away, came back and found this post. Deeply moving. Thank you. I'll carry it with me throughout the season.
robert - I was away, came back and found this post. Deeply moving. Thank you. I'll carry it with me throughout the season.
Thanks, Robert M. Jeffers, for your post-it made me cry.
I think when Archbishop Romero told his friend " I don't want to hear this," he was in despair because her story made him doubt his belief in a good God.
Later he came to realize that the only good that God can do in this world is through us and he sacrificed his life to do God's real work.
Robert, I'd go to your church anytime.
Thanks, Robert M. Jeffers, for your post-it made me cry.
I think when Archbishop Romero told his friend " I don't want to hear this," he was in despair because her story made him doubt his belief in a good God.
Later he came to realize that the only good that God can do in this world is through us and he sacrificed his life to do God's real work.
Robert, I'd go to your church anytime.
Interestingly, advent has come to mean more to me (me, raised Catholic) since I've become involved with an(other) atheist from Germany. The traditions are stronger with them than with my religious family.
And so I am looking forward to our Adventskaffee, which features Feuerzangenbolle--which, if you know what it is, you are jealous.
Interestingly, advent has come to mean more to me (me, raised Catholic) since I've become involved with an(other) atheist from Germany. The traditions are stronger with them than with my religious family.
And so I am looking forward to our Adventskaffee, which features Feuerzangenbolle--which, if you know what it is, you are jealous.
A little off thread, but today I went to a meeting down at the "Bushville" encampment which the Kennsington Welfare Rights Union has set up in North Philadelphia. It was great!
The meeting was to learn about the project, trying to get homes for some of Philadelphia's homeless ( more than 300 are already overbooked in the City's shelter system this autumn, and with winter coming it's going to get worse...). It was to be a dialogue between Cherri Hannkula and the members of various faith groups.
It was quite heartening to hear political progressives able to own their faith and also to consider how pragmatic help for those in need (charity) needs to be tied to a broader vision, and willingness to claim the power of Truth/God to move the mountain of poverty.
People came away with a better awareness of how ties together we all are, empowered and dispossesed, poor and wealthy we all need each other and really ARE each other. It's not Globalization which is the villain, but really it's the exploitation of the poor to feed the rich, the exploitation of the dispossesed to keep the powerful in power...exploitation of the Earth, of the Calendar (think of December as a month of "shopping days"!) exploitation of history and people's stories to create a mythology of US manifest destiny etc. etc.
It's all so out in the open anymore. You'd need to willfully closing your eyes not to see it.
A little off thread, but today I went to a meeting down at the "Bushville" encampment which the Kennsington Welfare Rights Union has set up in North Philadelphia. It was great!
The meeting was to learn about the project, trying to get homes for some of Philadelphia's homeless ( more than 300 are already overbooked in the City's shelter system this autumn, and with winter coming it's going to get worse...). It was to be a dialogue between Cherri Hannkula and the members of various faith groups.
It was quite heartening to hear political progressives able to own their faith and also to consider how pragmatic help for those in need (charity) needs to be tied to a broader vision, and willingness to claim the power of Truth/God to move the mountain of poverty.
People came away with a better awareness of how ties together we all are, empowered and dispossesed, poor and wealthy we all need each other and really ARE each other. It's not Globalization which is the villain, but really it's the exploitation of the poor to feed the rich, the exploitation of the dispossesed to keep the powerful in power...exploitation of the Earth, of the Calendar (think of December as a month of "shopping days"!) exploitation of history and people's stories to create a mythology of US manifest destiny etc. etc.
It's all so out in the open anymore. You'd need to willfully closing your eyes not to see it.
Thanks for a great job this weekend, RMJ, you've put smiles on my face and thoughts in my head.
Thanks for a great job this weekend, RMJ, you've put smiles on my face and thoughts in my head.
I've enjoyed your posts as well. If you don't want the responsibility of your own blog, you should consider joining a group blog and post once a week or so. I'm sure you'd be welcome at The American Street. Send me a note if you're interested and I'll talk to Kevin about it. patriotboyATcharter.net
I've always though that RMJ would work well in a group blog with Slacktivist
Get those two and leftyrev(sp?) together and you'd have the liberal Christian superblog.
I've enjoyed your posts as well. If you don't want the responsibility of your own blog, you should consider joining a group blog and post once a week or so. I'm sure you'd be welcome at The American Street. Send me a note if you're interested and I'll talk to Kevin about it. patriotboyATcharter.net
I've always though that RMJ would work well in a group blog with Slacktivist
Get those two and leftyrev(sp?) together and you'd have the liberal Christian superblog.
give us a
new thread
new thread
new thread
new thread
new thread
give us a
new thread
new thread
new thread
new thread
new thread
Platitudes be damned in the face of reality.
That is why the church exists within and must only reside there.
Platitudes be damned in the face of reality.
That is why the church exists within and must only reside there.
I appreciate your posts, RMJeffers. I was brought up in UCC. Left it but always thought it was a lot better than many of the alternatives. Had a woman minister in the 60's! Unprecedented! Great post.
I appreciate your posts, RMJeffers. I was brought up in UCC. Left it but always thought it was a lot better than many of the alternatives. Had a woman minister in the 60's! Unprecedented! Great post.
Thanks, Robert M. Jeffers, for your post-it made me cry.
Give me a fucking break...
Thanks, Robert M. Jeffers, for your post-it made me cry.
Give me a fucking break...
please continue with the pretense and dullness RMJ.
I will cry when I hear River.
I will watch Oprah.
I will listen to my heart which knows.
Fairness is right.
War is wrong.
Compassion is required.
Faith is optional.
CTheGee
please continue with the pretense and dullness RMJ.
I will cry when I hear River.
I will watch Oprah.
I will listen to my heart which knows.
Fairness is right.
War is wrong.
Compassion is required.
Faith is optional.
CTheGee
Thanks, Robert M. Jeffers, for your post-it made me cry.
Give me a fucking break...
Stop being a jerk.
Someone give us a NEW THREAD.
Thanks, Robert M. Jeffers, for your post-it made me cry.
Give me a fucking break...
Stop being a jerk.
Someone give us a NEW THREAD.
Ignore Gabriel Knight. it's a sociopathic troll.
Ignore Gabriel Knight. it's a sociopathic troll.
I don't think I understand what Jeffers' point is with this story. Is he speaking to the ultimate uselessness of Christianity and of all religions to deliver us from evil? Is he speaking to the complicity of the Catholic Church in the violence of many of those societies where it takes hold?
There's no redemption except through exacting justice. But, since that is hardly a position a liberal/Leftist would adopt (since such a person does not believe in personal responsibility, but in the fault of Society), what is Jeffers' actual point?
I don't think I understand what Jeffers' point is with this story. Is he speaking to the ultimate uselessness of Christianity and of all religions to deliver us from evil? Is he speaking to the complicity of the Catholic Church in the violence of many of those societies where it takes hold?
There's no redemption except through exacting justice. But, since that is hardly a position a liberal/Leftist would adopt (since such a person does not believe in personal responsibility, but in the fault of Society), what is Jeffers' actual point?
Robert - a group blog is a nice way to go when you don't feel that you can or want to post a lot all the time. It works great for me - I'm sharing with two people who do post a lot and are so good that I don't feel that I need to post that much. I could if I wanted to, but it allows me to be free from feeling that I have to, so I can hang out here and that's my first love, frankly. The company is so good.
But your voice really could use an outlet because we could really use your voice.
Robert - a group blog is a nice way to go when you don't feel that you can or want to post a lot all the time. It works great for me - I'm sharing with two people who do post a lot and are so good that I don't feel that I need to post that much. I could if I wanted to, but it allows me to be free from feeling that I have to, so I can hang out here and that's my first love, frankly. The company is so good.
But your voice really could use an outlet because we could really use your voice.
But, since that is hardly a position a liberal/Leftist would adopt (since such a person does not believe in personal responsibility, but in the fault of Society)
A reminder: Ignore the Petztroll. Such statements show that you will not get an actual debate if you answer it.
But, since that is hardly a position a liberal/Leftist would adopt (since such a person does not believe in personal responsibility, but in the fault of Society)
A reminder: Ignore the Petztroll. Such statements show that you will not get an actual debate if you answer it.
rorschach:
I was just about to post something
along the lines of "can somebody else
please tell toby to go fuck himself,
I can't because he's such a jerk I
can't summon the energy."
In other words, thank you.
rorschach:
I was just about to post something
along the lines of "can somebody else
please tell toby to go fuck himself,
I can't because he's such a jerk I
can't summon the energy."
In other words, thank you.
No problem, steve.
We all do what we can. It's a matter of personal and communal responsibility.
Some people just don't understand that both are needed.
No problem, steve.
We all do what we can. It's a matter of personal and communal responsibility.
Some people just don't understand that both are needed.
Carpbasman - The Liberal Christian Superblog - oh man, I love that. It's way overdue, frankly. Three quarters of the young kids the fundies grab are just looking for something - not necessarily that, but it's there. It's not just handy, it's out there shanghai-ing members. A dear friend of mine had both her girls shanghaied by a fundie group for awhile. I'm grateful as I can be that they both grew out of it. But for awhile both those girls were spouting the creationist bullshit and the whole damn book of lies.
That's entirely unnecessary. Someone needs to be telling people that that is not all there is to religion.
Carpbasman - The Liberal Christian Superblog - oh man, I love that. It's way overdue, frankly. Three quarters of the young kids the fundies grab are just looking for something - not necessarily that, but it's there. It's not just handy, it's out there shanghai-ing members. A dear friend of mine had both her girls shanghaied by a fundie group for awhile. I'm grateful as I can be that they both grew out of it. But for awhile both those girls were spouting the creationist bullshit and the whole damn book of lies.
That's entirely unnecessary. Someone needs to be telling people that that is not all there is to religion.
I don't think I understand what Jeffers' point is with this story. Is he speaking to the ultimate uselessness of Christianity and of all religions to deliver us from evil? Is he speaking to the complicity of the Catholic Church in the violence of many of those societies where it takes hold?
There's no redemption except through exacting justice. But, since that is hardly a position a liberal/Leftist would adopt (since such a person does not believe in personal responsibility, but in the fault of Society), what is Jeffers' actual point?
That's because you are so wrapped up in your strawmen about what liberals are and what they stand for that you simply cannot see through them to get to his point.
Do you even know who Archbishop Romero is? Did you even think to look?
I don't think I understand what Jeffers' point is with this story. Is he speaking to the ultimate uselessness of Christianity and of all religions to deliver us from evil? Is he speaking to the complicity of the Catholic Church in the violence of many of those societies where it takes hold?
There's no redemption except through exacting justice. But, since that is hardly a position a liberal/Leftist would adopt (since such a person does not believe in personal responsibility, but in the fault of Society), what is Jeffers' actual point?
That's because you are so wrapped up in your strawmen about what liberals are and what they stand for that you simply cannot see through them to get to his point.
Do you even know who Archbishop Romero is? Did you even think to look?
Anybody remember the 13-year-old
Perfect Master, the Guru Maharajah
Ji? Big deal in the early 70s.
Had his god license revoked by his
mom when they discovered he was
boinking the secretaries.
Just mentioning....
Anybody remember the 13-year-old
Perfect Master, the Guru Maharajah
Ji? Big deal in the early 70s.
Had his god license revoked by his
mom when they discovered he was
boinking the secretaries.
Just mentioning....
(oy Carpbasman, do not engage the troll.)
Or do, if you'd like. But it'll get you nowhere.
(oy Carpbasman, do not engage the troll.)
Or do, if you'd like. But it'll get you nowhere.
Beautiful post, Robert.
I wonder, have you ever read The Sparrow? Followed, of course, by the even more excellent "Children of God?"
The books, fiction though they might be, made me wish I was still a Catholic.
"Shall I confess to you, Father Iron Horse? I doubt. In my old age, I doubt. I wonder if I have been a fool to live as I have. I wonder if I have been wrong about everything."
A.
Beautiful post, Robert.
I wonder, have you ever read The Sparrow? Followed, of course, by the even more excellent "Children of God?"
The books, fiction though they might be, made me wish I was still a Catholic.
"Shall I confess to you, Father Iron Horse? I doubt. In my old age, I doubt. I wonder if I have been a fool to live as I have. I wonder if I have been wrong about everything."
A.
A dear friend of mine had both her girls shanghaied by a fundie group for awhile. I'm grateful as I can be that they both grew out of it. But for awhile both those girls were spouting the creationist bullshit and the whole damn book of lies.
Yeah, everybody and their mother tried to shanghai me, from the fundies to the skinheads. Luckily I'm enough of an asshole that they all gave up.
But seriously, if Robert were to blog, he and slacktivist would compliment each other nicely. They're both intellectual liberal Christians, and a two post day at Slacktivist is a real barn burner so there would be no worry abou getting lost in the noise.
However, I'm kinda recruiting both of them with out asking so I'll shut up now
A dear friend of mine had both her girls shanghaied by a fundie group for awhile. I'm grateful as I can be that they both grew out of it. But for awhile both those girls were spouting the creationist bullshit and the whole damn book of lies.
Yeah, everybody and their mother tried to shanghai me, from the fundies to the skinheads. Luckily I'm enough of an asshole that they all gave up.
But seriously, if Robert were to blog, he and slacktivist would compliment each other nicely. They're both intellectual liberal Christians, and a two post day at Slacktivist is a real barn burner so there would be no worry abou getting lost in the noise.
However, I'm kinda recruiting both of them with out asking so I'll shut up now
Athenae - I've read both those books. I read the Sparrow right after it came out - I'd read a review.
Love those books and the second one is my favorite. By far. And the reviews were not as good.
Athenae - I've read both those books. I read the Sparrow right after it came out - I'd read a review.
Love those books and the second one is my favorite. By far. And the reviews were not as good.
We cannot do everything, and there is a sense of liberation in realizing that. This enables us to do something, and to do it very well. It may be incomplete, but it is a beginning, a step along the way, an opportunity for the lord's grace to enter and do the rest.
Oscar Romero
jgh
We cannot do everything, and there is a sense of liberation in realizing that. This enables us to do something, and to do it very well. It may be incomplete, but it is a beginning, a step along the way, an opportunity for the lord's grace to enter and do the rest.
Oscar Romero
jgh
(oy Carpbasman, do not engage the troll.)
Sometimes incredulity gets the best of me.
And sometimes I'm just bored.
But this time incredulity about the subject's abject cluelessness got the best of me.
(oy Carpbasman, do not engage the troll.)
Sometimes incredulity gets the best of me.
And sometimes I'm just bored.
But this time incredulity about the subject's abject cluelessness got the best of me.
(OT--and just to reveal that I actually do have "guy" characteristics, the Raiders victory just now was bloody incredible.)
(OT--and just to reveal that I actually do have "guy" characteristics, the Raiders victory just now was bloody incredible.)
Carpbasman - the only ones who came after me were the Jehovah's Witnesses. And the New Kadampas, when I tried to leave. But they finally quit bothering me.
Carpbasman - the only ones who came after me were the Jehovah's Witnesses. And the New Kadampas, when I tried to leave. But they finally quit bothering me.
To blaise -
Romero went on from the incident RMJ describes to embrace and champion the victims of the death squads. Ultimately, he gave his life for them. His death was a turning point in the US debate over support for oppressive governments in South America. His actions, his opposition to the rule of the death squads, and his courage in maintaining his position in the face of the threat of death, changed things.
What's your resume look like?
To those who find discussions that touch on religious faith tedious --
If it really bothers you that much, you can always just read another thread.
Cheers-
To blaise -
Romero went on from the incident RMJ describes to embrace and champion the victims of the death squads. Ultimately, he gave his life for them. His death was a turning point in the US debate over support for oppressive governments in South America. His actions, his opposition to the rule of the death squads, and his courage in maintaining his position in the face of the threat of death, changed things.
What's your resume look like?
To those who find discussions that touch on religious faith tedious --
If it really bothers you that much, you can always just read another thread.
Cheers-
Well, I didn't try t leave, I left.
Well, I didn't try t leave, I left.
carpbasman:
Do you even know who Archbishop Romero is?
Isn't he the priest who was assassinated in his own church?
Anyway, I don't see what that has to do with anything. Jeffers' point is still obscure.
carpbasman:
Do you even know who Archbishop Romero is?
Isn't he the priest who was assassinated in his own church?
Anyway, I don't see what that has to do with anything. Jeffers' point is still obscure.
I find it a bit amusing that I've left the Episcopal Church for UCC at the same time as RMJ is leaving the UCC for ECUSA. (However, the UCC's frankly idiotic policy of letting churches body-shop for clerics is a good reason to leave that denomination.) For me, it was the counter-revolutionary charge led by conservative bishops in my local dioceses that caused me to look for another branch of faith. And, in any case, I spend more time with the Lutheran priest down the hall who runs the inner-city ministry here.
For those who are using this thread as an opportunity to bash religion in general and Christianity in particular, let me tell you about Father A. He recently joined the ministry after a successful and very lucrative career in construction, in which he found wealth but not fulfillment. He joined a church group building houses for the poor in Mexico one summer, and managed to find both his wife and the desire to join the church.
This is a man who walks the downtown streets meeting the poor and homeless (of which we have many), listening to their stories and finding their needs. He uses the church to help those who, quite frankly, most of us don't even see on the way into work.
He doesn't have to do this -- the easy path would have been to keep his corporation and the successful lifestyle, rather than taking on a career that promises very little in the way of earthly rewards. But it's his faith that demands he does so.
And that's not nothing.
I find it a bit amusing that I've left the Episcopal Church for UCC at the same time as RMJ is leaving the UCC for ECUSA. (However, the UCC's frankly idiotic policy of letting churches body-shop for clerics is a good reason to leave that denomination.) For me, it was the counter-revolutionary charge led by conservative bishops in my local dioceses that caused me to look for another branch of faith. And, in any case, I spend more time with the Lutheran priest down the hall who runs the inner-city ministry here.
For those who are using this thread as an opportunity to bash religion in general and Christianity in particular, let me tell you about Father A. He recently joined the ministry after a successful and very lucrative career in construction, in which he found wealth but not fulfillment. He joined a church group building houses for the poor in Mexico one summer, and managed to find both his wife and the desire to join the church.
This is a man who walks the downtown streets meeting the poor and homeless (of which we have many), listening to their stories and finding their needs. He uses the church to help those who, quite frankly, most of us don't even see on the way into work.
He doesn't have to do this -- the easy path would have been to keep his corporation and the successful lifestyle, rather than taking on a career that promises very little in the way of earthly rewards. But it's his faith that demands he does so.
And that's not nothing.
I've gotta say, I find this thread got me wound up more than most.
Long ago went to a very liberal secular humanist college, Marlboro, up in Vermont. Later, in a spell of deep strong (slightly puritanical) religiosity, I was on the verge of giving up on the place. Marlboro had fueled so much great debate and so much curiosity in me, but I felt like it was all so lacking in Spirit.
I went back to visit and discovered that all the debate was still spinning there. But best of all I discovered that the thing I thought stood as a barrier between me and the place & people I loved was actually an entry way.
SOme people express their faith in thier dialogue. Others use dialogue and questions to explore their world, but the love of the journey, the quest for Truth is the journey made in faith and TO faith.
In a lot of ways, the better parts of the exchange here is a similar. For some, the heated political debate is a backdrop in front of which they express their values/concerns/faith. For others it is sort of an end in itself, but that hunger for Truth and Justice...that is ( as I see it) God at work in our hearts and monds, even if we can't let ourselves say so.
If Atrios was always an overtly "religious" blog, I'd probably not hang here so much. On the other hand, having a space for considering matters of faith, which informs so much of what so many of us think & do, feels quite heartening.
Thanks RMJ for this, and thanks too to Hecate who has brought much of the same seeking to her posts. Also Tena, Pie Athenae & indeed Atrios himself...all seem to have hearts informed by love and caring. Not Nihilists or mere materialists, and I'm glad.
I've gotta say, I find this thread got me wound up more than most.
Long ago went to a very liberal secular humanist college, Marlboro, up in Vermont. Later, in a spell of deep strong (slightly puritanical) religiosity, I was on the verge of giving up on the place. Marlboro had fueled so much great debate and so much curiosity in me, but I felt like it was all so lacking in Spirit.
I went back to visit and discovered that all the debate was still spinning there. But best of all I discovered that the thing I thought stood as a barrier between me and the place & people I loved was actually an entry way.
SOme people express their faith in thier dialogue. Others use dialogue and questions to explore their world, but the love of the journey, the quest for Truth is the journey made in faith and TO faith.
In a lot of ways, the better parts of the exchange here is a similar. For some, the heated political debate is a backdrop in front of which they express their values/concerns/faith. For others it is sort of an end in itself, but that hunger for Truth and Justice...that is ( as I see it) God at work in our hearts and monds, even if we can't let ourselves say so.
If Atrios was always an overtly "religious" blog, I'd probably not hang here so much. On the other hand, having a space for considering matters of faith, which informs so much of what so many of us think & do, feels quite heartening.
Thanks RMJ for this, and thanks too to Hecate who has brought much of the same seeking to her posts. Also Tena, Pie Athenae & indeed Atrios himself...all seem to have hearts informed by love and caring. Not Nihilists or mere materialists, and I'm glad.
Fuck all religion. I scrolled through this post and I'm a Jeffers admirer. Get me off this planet until all this crap is gone, including the nice thoughtful kind gentle touchy-discussion variety. Sky god=clueless infant death syndrome. Buy into one bit of "religion" as a sensible person, you're forever on the defensive. Read Emerson on this shit.
GOLDEN RULE, period, end of discussion. Fuck all this other endless vanity timewasting masturbation. Every bit of this crap feels like sucking up to Osama bin Laden and his gay lover GW Bush.
Sorry I'm disgusted and think we need to get back to first principles. This thread is a waste and pissses me off.
Fuck all religion. I scrolled through this post and I'm a Jeffers admirer. Get me off this planet until all this crap is gone, including the nice thoughtful kind gentle touchy-discussion variety. Sky god=clueless infant death syndrome. Buy into one bit of "religion" as a sensible person, you're forever on the defensive. Read Emerson on this shit.
GOLDEN RULE, period, end of discussion. Fuck all this other endless vanity timewasting masturbation. Every bit of this crap feels like sucking up to Osama bin Laden and his gay lover GW Bush.
Sorry I'm disgusted and think we need to get back to first principles. This thread is a waste and pissses me off.
This thread is a waste and pissses me off.
Then why waste your time contributing to it.
But more to the point:
Fuck all religion
I am an unapologetic atheist. But this point of view is silly.
Fuck all physics because it led to the bomb?
Fuck all chemistry because of DDT?
Fuck all politics because of totalitarianism?
Come on now.
This thread is a waste and pissses me off.
Then why waste your time contributing to it.
But more to the point:
Fuck all religion
I am an unapologetic atheist. But this point of view is silly.
Fuck all physics because it led to the bomb?
Fuck all chemistry because of DDT?
Fuck all politics because of totalitarianism?
Come on now.
Sounds like somebody's been stealing names again.
RMJ, and MYMary, don't leave. Don't let the hateful ones drive you off. That's exactly what they hoped to achieve.
Please, stick around. Then they lose and goodness wins.
Sounds like somebody's been stealing names again.
RMJ, and MYMary, don't leave. Don't let the hateful ones drive you off. That's exactly what they hoped to achieve.
Please, stick around. Then they lose and goodness wins.
Peace, brother Jeffers, and may the Lord be with you always...
How refreshing to not only witness the return of liberation theology but observe its impact upon humankind as well.
The sounds of liberation theology can be heard around the world, from the street chants of "no justice, no peace" in North and South America, the failed overthrow of Hitler and resulting executions, to the first democratic election held in South Korea in 1996, which was a struggle that began in the early 1960s.
In Christianity, "the kingdom" is here and now; in Christiandom, "the kingdom" is then and after. Thus, Christianity is for the masses and Christiandom is for empires; one perspective sides with the people, the other supports the State.
Thank you for your wisdom, brother Jeffers.
Peace, brother Jeffers, and may the Lord be with you always...
How refreshing to not only witness the return of liberation theology but observe its impact upon humankind as well.
The sounds of liberation theology can be heard around the world, from the street chants of "no justice, no peace" in North and South America, the failed overthrow of Hitler and resulting executions, to the first democratic election held in South Korea in 1996, which was a struggle that began in the early 1960s.
In Christianity, "the kingdom" is here and now; in Christiandom, "the kingdom" is then and after. Thus, Christianity is for the masses and Christiandom is for empires; one perspective sides with the people, the other supports the State.
Thank you for your wisdom, brother Jeffers.
This text means many things, but for my purposes here it means the point where Christendom fails, and Christianity continues; continues into something unknown and frightening.
How is Christendom different from Christianity?
How does the quoted passage speak to this?
How did Christendom fail in the quoted passage?
How does Christianity continue?
It what ways is it "unknown and frightning" compared to what came before?
Bonus Question: How does this relate to modern politics.
This text means many things, but for my purposes here it means the point where Christendom fails, and Christianity continues; continues into something unknown and frightening.
How is Christendom different from Christianity?
How does the quoted passage speak to this?
How did Christendom fail in the quoted passage?
How does Christianity continue?
It what ways is it "unknown and frightning" compared to what came before?
Bonus Question: How does this relate to modern politics.
Plus: Hooray Feuerzangenbolle!
Plus: Hooray Feuerzangenbolle!
Rorschach: Like I said, somebody's been stealing names again.
Rorschach: Like I said, somebody's been stealing names again.
Union,
Well said. Looks like you answered 9th Grade Reading comp before s/he posted the question.
Going off to bed now...You kids be nice to each other now. Or at least try.
Union,
Well said. Looks like you answered 9th Grade Reading comp before s/he posted the question.
Going off to bed now...You kids be nice to each other now. Or at least try.
*Off-topic action alert* *sorry if you've already done this*
Hi, check out this post by Juan Cole about feminism and freedom of speech in the Middle East, then head over here to sign a petition about it. Thanks!!!
*Off-topic action alert* *sorry if you've already done this*
Hi, check out this post by Juan Cole about feminism and freedom of speech in the Middle East, then head over here to sign a petition about it. Thanks!!!
Oy.
Apparently someone asked for my resume
Watched several people die, tried to help them get through it with the least pain possible. In this cause, practiced medicine without a licence, and I hope the statute of limitations has run on on the last one.
To date, have assisted dozens of young adults into gradutate school.
Have written and published a lot of crappy stories.
Have never told someone to shut up because I didn't want to hear/could not bear to listen to what they were saying. Not once. I listen. After I listen, I often go off like a bomb, but I always listen first.
Have not believed in a deity since I was six. I believed in Santa Claus until I was about ten. I wanted to believe in Santa Claus. I wanted...magic to exist.
My problem with this 'oh it's so wonderful, it makes me cry, it's so Christian' post and the reponses is that it totally ignores reality.
Yeah, so Romero worked for good at some point. At this point, the point that was posted about, he utterly failed. And some people cry about this? Think it was holy?
The woman was raped. He didn't listen. He made her comfort him.
Very nice. Very inisightful and noble. Very heroic.
So people change? So people learn? Yeah, sometimes. But it seemed that the point of this post was to admire Romero's willful turning away, his blindness, in the name of forgiveness.
I repeat
Fuck that
No, forgiveness is not a virtue. Not if the one who injured you did not apologize.
Oy.
Apparently someone asked for my resume
Watched several people die, tried to help them get through it with the least pain possible. In this cause, practiced medicine without a licence, and I hope the statute of limitations has run on on the last one.
To date, have assisted dozens of young adults into gradutate school.
Have written and published a lot of crappy stories.
Have never told someone to shut up because I didn't want to hear/could not bear to listen to what they were saying. Not once. I listen. After I listen, I often go off like a bomb, but I always listen first.
Have not believed in a deity since I was six. I believed in Santa Claus until I was about ten. I wanted to believe in Santa Claus. I wanted...magic to exist.
My problem with this 'oh it's so wonderful, it makes me cry, it's so Christian' post and the reponses is that it totally ignores reality.
Yeah, so Romero worked for good at some point. At this point, the point that was posted about, he utterly failed. And some people cry about this? Think it was holy?
The woman was raped. He didn't listen. He made her comfort him.
Very nice. Very inisightful and noble. Very heroic.
So people change? So people learn? Yeah, sometimes. But it seemed that the point of this post was to admire Romero's willful turning away, his blindness, in the name of forgiveness.
I repeat
Fuck that
No, forgiveness is not a virtue. Not if the one who injured you did not apologize.
Tena, some days I'm not entirely sure we don't share a brain.
The second one was amazing, wasn't it?
"They were as grass to me. I did not count them."
*runs to get it and re-read*
A.
Tena, some days I'm not entirely sure we don't share a brain.
The second one was amazing, wasn't it?
"They were as grass to me. I did not count them."
*runs to get it and re-read*
A.
Best. Post. Ever.
Best. Post. Ever.
9th Grade Reading Comp Tester:
1) In the same way that Mark Twain's "Professional Christian" differs from a "Professing Christian".
2) The quoted passage showed the Archbishop falling back on the time-worn homilies -- the "Christendom"/"Professional Christian" bit -- but he realized that he just couldn't spew platitudes at this woman. In fact, for her situation, there ARE NO comforting things, or "right" things, that can be said. It's simply much more helpful to let her know that he shares her pain, and feels it. That's why she was moved to comfort him for his frustration at being unable to "make it all better" with the usual platitudes.
3) and 4): See answer #2.
5): Because it's not words-by-rote. It involves putting your heart on the line for all to see. It involves honesty.
Bonus: Honesty is the key. We can't go around pretending to be what we're not. We must dare to be ourselves, dare to love, dare to care, dare to admit when we don't know the answers, dare to be fully alive.
9th Grade Reading Comp Tester:
1) In the same way that Mark Twain's "Professional Christian" differs from a "Professing Christian".
2) The quoted passage showed the Archbishop falling back on the time-worn homilies -- the "Christendom"/"Professional Christian" bit -- but he realized that he just couldn't spew platitudes at this woman. In fact, for her situation, there ARE NO comforting things, or "right" things, that can be said. It's simply much more helpful to let her know that he shares her pain, and feels it. That's why she was moved to comfort him for his frustration at being unable to "make it all better" with the usual platitudes.
3) and 4): See answer #2.
5): Because it's not words-by-rote. It involves putting your heart on the line for all to see. It involves honesty.
Bonus: Honesty is the key. We can't go around pretending to be what we're not. We must dare to be ourselves, dare to love, dare to care, dare to admit when we don't know the answers, dare to be fully alive.
Hmmm. First it was "Blaise", now it's "baise"?
Ohhhkay.
Whichever name you are, the whole point of the story -- to me, anyway -- is that Romero realized that he could not comfort this woman using the tools that he, as a Catholic priest, was sanctioned to use. So he felt that he had to confess his inability to do so to her. This is what caused him to become an activist, and what ultimately caused the death squadders to take him out.
And I guess that to you, his failure to comfort her is such a sin that it totally outweighs all the good that he did in his life, or the fact that he was murdered because of the good that he did.
Hmmm. First it was "Blaise", now it's "baise"?
Ohhhkay.
Whichever name you are, the whole point of the story -- to me, anyway -- is that Romero realized that he could not comfort this woman using the tools that he, as a Catholic priest, was sanctioned to use. So he felt that he had to confess his inability to do so to her. This is what caused him to become an activist, and what ultimately caused the death squadders to take him out.
And I guess that to you, his failure to comfort her is such a sin that it totally outweighs all the good that he did in his life, or the fact that he was murdered because of the good that he did.
Cuyahoga County (Ohio)
A new ruling about counting provisional ballots was instituted on November 9 at 2:30 pm. The new ruling in Cuyahoga County mandates that provisional ballots in yellow packets must be Rejected if there is no date of birth on the packet.
The Free Press obtained copies of the original "Provisional Verification Procedure" from Cuyahoga County which stated "Date of birth is not mandatory and should not reject a provisional ballot." The original procedure required the voter’s name, address and a signature that matched the signature in the county’s database. One of the clerks said, "This is new. This just came down. They just changed it in the last thirty minutes."
http://www.recountohio.org/news/...news/
index.html
--
Cuyahoga County (Ohio)
A new ruling about counting provisional ballots was instituted on November 9 at 2:30 pm. The new ruling in Cuyahoga County mandates that provisional ballots in yellow packets must be Rejected if there is no date of birth on the packet.
The Free Press obtained copies of the original "Provisional Verification Procedure" from Cuyahoga County which stated "Date of birth is not mandatory and should not reject a provisional ballot." The original procedure required the voter’s name, address and a signature that matched the signature in the county’s database. One of the clerks said, "This is new. This just came down. They just changed it in the last thirty minutes."
http://www.recountohio.org/news/...news/
index.html
--
For some weird reason, I'm reminded
of the scene in "Help" where George
Harrison, faced with devotees of the
death goddess Kali trying to kill him,
looks at the camera and goes "I don't
want to knock anyone's religion..."
This pre-dates George's religious
conversion, by the way.
Cracks me up, that's all I can say.
For some weird reason, I'm reminded
of the scene in "Help" where George
Harrison, faced with devotees of the
death goddess Kali trying to kill him,
looks at the camera and goes "I don't
want to knock anyone's religion..."
This pre-dates George's religious
conversion, by the way.
Cracks me up, that's all I can say.
Surprised this post is on Atrios. Not in a good way. So much for expectation.
Have a merry delusion, I know I will.
Surprised this post is on Atrios. Not in a good way. So much for expectation.
Have a merry delusion, I know I will.
"I note that there are 17,741 uncounted ballots in Cuyahoga County. Kerry's margin in Cleveland was reportedly 108,659 votes with a 49.89% turnout.
"The rest of Cuyahoga County had a 71.95% turnout. Such a turnout in Cleveland would have given Kerry a margin of 156,705 votes, left Bush with a statewide margin of 85,007 votes, and with 248,100 votes still uncounted, nobody would be conceding Ohio."
MORE AT: http://blog.democrats.com/node/812
"I note that there are 17,741 uncounted ballots in Cuyahoga County. Kerry's margin in Cleveland was reportedly 108,659 votes with a 49.89% turnout.
"The rest of Cuyahoga County had a 71.95% turnout. Such a turnout in Cleveland would have given Kerry a margin of 156,705 votes, left Bush with a statewide margin of 85,007 votes, and with 248,100 votes still uncounted, nobody would be conceding Ohio."
MORE AT: http://blog.democrats.com/node/812
No discussion of Latin American death squad activity is complete without noting the Reagan administration's support of such groups, through Ambassador John Negroponte.
The name may sound familiar: Negroponte was chosen by Nero to be ambassador to the UN, and, more recently, ambassador to Iraq.
No discussion of Latin American death squad activity is complete without noting the Reagan administration's support of such groups, through Ambassador John Negroponte.
The name may sound familiar: Negroponte was chosen by Nero to be ambassador to the UN, and, more recently, ambassador to Iraq.
Phoenix woman -- didn't he continue to be a priest?
I don't see how this encounter changed him -- he went out and fought for human rights, fine. But he didn't renounce the very property that made him unable to comfort this woman -- your terms. In his belief system, what happened to her (and what happens to thousands every day) was less important than continuing to believe in a supreme male deity and the teachings of the church
Phoenix woman -- didn't he continue to be a priest?
I don't see how this encounter changed him -- he went out and fought for human rights, fine. But he didn't renounce the very property that made him unable to comfort this woman -- your terms. In his belief system, what happened to her (and what happens to thousands every day) was less important than continuing to believe in a supreme male deity and the teachings of the church
if human rights are not women's rights, then they are not human rights
if human rights are not women's rights, then they are not human rights
Well I posted those for certain personalities who couldn't seem to get the point of Jeffer's post.
Well I posted those for certain personalities who couldn't seem to get the point of Jeffer's post.
No, forgiveness is not a virtue. Not if the one who injured you did not apologize.
Here's what I said way back at 9:55
Another would be to see the priest's abortive advice to be more about hatred and resentment eating away at your own soul, so forgiveness is necessary for one's own spiritual health.
In fact, this is exactly what Nelson Mandela said he had to find it in his heart to do regarding his years in prison..
Forgivness is in fact a virtue.
Here's a quote from Mandela himself:
If there are dreams about a beautiful South Africa, there are also roads that lead to their goal. Two of these roads could be named Goodness and Forgiveness.
If you talk to a man in a language he understands, that goes to his head. If you talk to him in his language, that goes to his heart.
No, forgiveness is not a virtue. Not if the one who injured you did not apologize.
Here's what I said way back at 9:55
Another would be to see the priest's abortive advice to be more about hatred and resentment eating away at your own soul, so forgiveness is necessary for one's own spiritual health.
In fact, this is exactly what Nelson Mandela said he had to find it in his heart to do regarding his years in prison..
Forgivness is in fact a virtue.
Here's a quote from Mandela himself:
If there are dreams about a beautiful South Africa, there are also roads that lead to their goal. Two of these roads could be named Goodness and Forgiveness.
If you talk to a man in a language he understands, that goes to his head. If you talk to him in his language, that goes to his heart.
Seventy percent of eligible voted/allowed to vote in the county; ONLY 50% eligible voted/allowed to vote in the city of Cleveland.
Gee, 22 hour waits in line cut down Dem votes pretty good. Who needs Diebold?
(muffled sounds of struggle) Ignore the preceding message. Diebold has guaranteed elections for four years, or else.
--
Seventy percent of eligible voted/allowed to vote in the county; ONLY 50% eligible voted/allowed to vote in the city of Cleveland.
Gee, 22 hour waits in line cut down Dem votes pretty good. Who needs Diebold?
(muffled sounds of struggle) Ignore the preceding message. Diebold has guaranteed elections for four years, or else.
--
I cannot understand why, if someone is firm in what they do or do not believe in, they then have to act as if having a this form of thread is a crime. It should not be a threat to anyone and is obviously both instructive and provides a bit of insight into your co-commentors. I have seen many different types of folks here, those who have beliefs are among the many. Unless you want a totalitarian system, you have to accept that diversity means differences that should be addressed equally.
I cannot understand why, if someone is firm in what they do or do not believe in, they then have to act as if having a this form of thread is a crime. It should not be a threat to anyone and is obviously both instructive and provides a bit of insight into your co-commentors. I have seen many different types of folks here, those who have beliefs are among the many. Unless you want a totalitarian system, you have to accept that diversity means differences that should be addressed equally.
ECenTriK--
There's always whiners.
And again, let me say, I'm an atheist, and I defend and I find this thread very interesting.
ECenTriK--
There's always whiners.
And again, let me say, I'm an atheist, and I defend and I find this thread very interesting.
I was about to skim and pass on but "River" by Joni Mitchell is excruciatingly close to my heart.
"Romero weeps and doubts and Marianela strokes his head."
Doubt. The most troubling, the most difficult to deal with. This clear-eyed Christianity that wields a sword is quite foreign to my world which is drenched with doubt.
Doubt is human.
In Buddhism doubt muddies the waters so you can't see, and they warn that the most potent of all of Mara's powers is doubt.
I can't relate to a human world without it.
"I'm so hard to handle, I'm selfish and I'm sad, now I've gone and lost the best baby that I've ever had. I wish I had a river,I could skate away on. I wish I had a river so long, I would teach my feet to fly."
I was about to skim and pass on but "River" by Joni Mitchell is excruciatingly close to my heart.
"Romero weeps and doubts and Marianela strokes his head."
Doubt. The most troubling, the most difficult to deal with. This clear-eyed Christianity that wields a sword is quite foreign to my world which is drenched with doubt.
Doubt is human.
In Buddhism doubt muddies the waters so you can't see, and they warn that the most potent of all of Mara's powers is doubt.
I can't relate to a human world without it.
"I'm so hard to handle, I'm selfish and I'm sad, now I've gone and lost the best baby that I've ever had. I wish I had a river,I could skate away on. I wish I had a river so long, I would teach my feet to fly."
rorschach
Agreed, I have been popping in and out of this thread since he posted. I have to say it is one of the more riveting here.
I follow no religion, I am not an atheist however, not sure what I am as yet. One day I think I am an agnostic the next a deist.
But RMJ managed to post something that I would listen to. It is far better than the McDonald style religious methods I see promoted by the average church.
rorschach
Agreed, I have been popping in and out of this thread since he posted. I have to say it is one of the more riveting here.
I follow no religion, I am not an atheist however, not sure what I am as yet. One day I think I am an agnostic the next a deist.
But RMJ managed to post something that I would listen to. It is far better than the McDonald style religious methods I see promoted by the average church.
I'm embarassed to admit it, but there's
a part of me that agrees with that
line the Judith Ivey character has
in Compromising Positions, where's
she's talking about the Susan Sarandon
character's being religiously
observant.
She says something like, "Ok, the
rituals are charming, but if you
really buy into the essence of the
religion, you lose all claim to calling
yourself a rational human being."
That's glib, but I have no real
argument against it.
Not knocking anybody here, by the way...
I'm embarassed to admit it, but there's
a part of me that agrees with that
line the Judith Ivey character has
in Compromising Positions, where's
she's talking about the Susan Sarandon
character's being religiously
observant.
She says something like, "Ok, the
rituals are charming, but if you
really buy into the essence of the
religion, you lose all claim to calling
yourself a rational human being."
That's glib, but I have no real
argument against it.
Not knocking anybody here, by the way...
I was raised Catholic, and went from that to universalist, and then to buddhist, and then to atheist, where I reside happily today.
But I have to say, I find Catholicism much more attractive than Protestantism, which is born of the printed word and very much against the "graven image."
I love the democratization created by the printed word. But the aesthetic experience of the Catholic mass is powerful, and a sad casualty of the Protestant Revolution.
I mean, religion has been theatre from day one.
I was raised Catholic, and went from that to universalist, and then to buddhist, and then to atheist, where I reside happily today.
But I have to say, I find Catholicism much more attractive than Protestantism, which is born of the printed word and very much against the "graven image."
I love the democratization created by the printed word. But the aesthetic experience of the Catholic mass is powerful, and a sad casualty of the Protestant Revolution.
I mean, religion has been theatre from day one.
Thanks for the post, RMJ.
Ignore the naysayers.
Thanks for the post, RMJ.
Ignore the naysayers.
Surprised this post is on Atrios. Not in a good way. So much for expectation.
Why?
There are more aspects to this story than the religious one.
And besides, not all religious people are like radical cleric James Dobson and his ilk. Celebrate diversity, and all that. 
Surprised this post is on Atrios. Not in a good way. So much for expectation.
Why?
There are more aspects to this story than the religious one.
And besides, not all religious people are like radical cleric James Dobson and his ilk. Celebrate diversity, and all that.
Puzzledwoman:
"Most religions seem to feel that the dumber their parishioners are, the better."
Didn't you notice that in a response RMJ said he was in the process of becoming an Episcopal priest? Evengelicals recognize only one authority -- the Bible. Catholics recognize two authorities -- the Bible and tradition. Episcopalians recognize three authorities -- the Bible, tradition, and reason! We expect our people to think. This also lets the Holy Spirit work in the church to do such neat things as help us to elect a bishop who happens to be gay and partnered!
Robert M. Jeffers:
How much longer until you are ordained? Which diocese are you in? Dio PA is a great one to work in. Our parish is looking for a new rector!
Puzzledwoman:
"Most religions seem to feel that the dumber their parishioners are, the better."
Didn't you notice that in a response RMJ said he was in the process of becoming an Episcopal priest? Evengelicals recognize only one authority -- the Bible. Catholics recognize two authorities -- the Bible and tradition. Episcopalians recognize three authorities -- the Bible, tradition, and reason! We expect our people to think. This also lets the Holy Spirit work in the church to do such neat things as help us to elect a bishop who happens to be gay and partnered!
Robert M. Jeffers:
How much longer until you are ordained? Which diocese are you in? Dio PA is a great one to work in. Our parish is looking for a new rector!
rorschach
That is sort of funny. I have a friend, Catholic who was raised such and will always be. They are simply just that, as a part of their life. No grand statements or activist positions. You know what I mean. Sometimes I found her far more interesting to talk to than the well versed protestant in the department. I realized one day all his reasoning came from the Bible. The Catholic told me what they actually thought.
rorschach
That is sort of funny. I have a friend, Catholic who was raised such and will always be. They are simply just that, as a part of their life. No grand statements or activist positions. You know what I mean. Sometimes I found her far more interesting to talk to than the well versed protestant in the department. I realized one day all his reasoning came from the Bible. The Catholic told me what they actually thought.
When will we see liberation theology in this country? When will the Christian clergy demand to be heard on the war in Iraq, which fulfills exactly none of the criteria for a just war?
When will we see liberation theology in this country? When will the Christian clergy demand to be heard on the war in Iraq, which fulfills exactly none of the criteria for a just war?
You know what I mean.
I know very well what you mean. One of the strengths of Catholicism is that it is cultural, not merely ideological in the narrow sense.
That's why you got the Irish Catholics, and the Italian Catholics, and (where I come from) the German Catholics.
And the Catholic focus on the non-literal, on the symbolic, gives it the power that it had for centuries.
You know what I mean.
I know very well what you mean. One of the strengths of Catholicism is that it is cultural, not merely ideological in the narrow sense.
That's why you got the Irish Catholics, and the Italian Catholics, and (where I come from) the German Catholics.
And the Catholic focus on the non-literal, on the symbolic, gives it the power that it had for centuries.
OT.
I'm not one to get choked up over the deaths of people who's work I dig but I don't know personally, like say musicians or writers, but rest in peace, Larry Brown. A damn fine writer, and I'm not one generally given to enjoying fiction. Check him out if you haven't already.
Only thing that bothers me is how little use my home state of Mississippi has for writers until after they're dead.
OT.
I'm not one to get choked up over the deaths of people who's work I dig but I don't know personally, like say musicians or writers, but rest in peace, Larry Brown. A damn fine writer, and I'm not one generally given to enjoying fiction. Check him out if you haven't already.
Only thing that bothers me is how little use my home state of Mississippi has for writers until after they're dead.
Only thing that bothers me is how little use my home state of Mississippi has for writers until after they're dead.
Yeah, but name me one state that values its writes prior to their death.
I mean, Dante himself had a hard time finding a home.
Only thing that bothers me is how little use my home state of Mississippi has for writers until after they're dead.
Yeah, but name me one state that values its writes prior to their death.
I mean, Dante himself had a hard time finding a home.
Doubt. The most troubling, the most difficult to deal with. This clear-eyed Christianity that wields a sword is quite foreign to my world which is drenched with doubt.
Rev. William Sloane Coffin (of anti-Vietnam War fame) used to say (quoting someone else, I think) that Christianity hadn't been tried and found wanting, it had been tried and found difficult.
Doubt. The most troubling, the most difficult to deal with. This clear-eyed Christianity that wields a sword is quite foreign to my world which is drenched with doubt.
Rev. William Sloane Coffin (of anti-Vietnam War fame) used to say (quoting someone else, I think) that Christianity hadn't been tried and found wanting, it had been tried and found difficult.
blackboxvoting.org
blackboxvoting.org
For what it's worth..... if there is a universal all-being omnipotent "One" it was that beings intent to bestow to me my ability to reason. The most reasonable thing to do when confronted with a litany of religious,superstitious,faith-based, 2000 year old theory that Jesus is God's cosmic bell-hop ready and waiting for me to ring the late Holy child of Nazareth at will to go fetch me a new Tivo for my family room ..... the most reasonable thing to do is quite frankly ignore it all. Jesus of Nazareth was most probably a great and humble social reformer of his times, but geezy peezy what's with all the freaking colored lights wrapped around the vinyl siding and aluminum drain spouts? I ask for relevance, not props. In honor of the enlightenred carpenter I live in Peace with all my fellow neighbors of this good Earth.
For what it's worth..... if there is a universal all-being omnipotent "One" it was that beings intent to bestow to me my ability to reason. The most reasonable thing to do when confronted with a litany of religious,superstitious,faith-based, 2000 year old theory that Jesus is God's cosmic bell-hop ready and waiting for me to ring the late Holy child of Nazareth at will to go fetch me a new Tivo for my family room ..... the most reasonable thing to do is quite frankly ignore it all. Jesus of Nazareth was most probably a great and humble social reformer of his times, but geezy peezy what's with all the freaking colored lights wrapped around the vinyl siding and aluminum drain spouts? I ask for relevance, not props. In honor of the enlightenred carpenter I live in Peace with all my fellow neighbors of this good Earth.
YEAH IT CAN ALSO BE SEEN ON WWW.DILBY.COM
DILBY NEWS MONITOR
It has good political news and crap...
YEAH IT CAN ALSO BE SEEN ON WWW.DILBY.COM
DILBY NEWS MONITOR
It has good political news and crap...
Synchronicity:
I was having a conversation with a friend of mine tonight (who briefly went to seminary) that I'm not very forgiving.
I guess I should work on it.
Thank you for the nudge.
Synchronicity:
I was having a conversation with a friend of mine tonight (who briefly went to seminary) that I'm not very forgiving.
I guess I should work on it.
Thank you for the nudge.
Yeah, but name me one state that values its writes prior to their death.
I mean, Dante himself had a hard time finding a home.
rorschach | Email | Homepage | 11.29.04 - 1:35 am | #
Point, but the Magnolia State has a distressing tendency to be outright hostile to them of the artistic bent until there's a buck to be made off of it. My point of origin, you'll remember, is Tupelo. The amount of Elvis splayed over every flat surface in that town is distressing.
And Dante was long-winded and his jokes don't translate well. Or was the Milton?
Yeah, but name me one state that values its writes prior to their death.
I mean, Dante himself had a hard time finding a home.
rorschach | Email | Homepage | 11.29.04 - 1:35 am | #
Point, but the Magnolia State has a distressing tendency to be outright hostile to them of the artistic bent until there's a buck to be made off of it. My point of origin, you'll remember, is Tupelo. The amount of Elvis splayed over every flat surface in that town is distressing.
And Dante was long-winded and his jokes don't translate well. Or was the Milton?
I threw away my candy bar and I ate the wrapper
and when they told me what I did I burst into laughter
I threw away my candy bar and I ate the wrapper
and when they told me what I did I burst into laughter
Susie Dow,
My brother says I suffer the same affliction. It's only when someone hoses me over in a serious way, but if they do, I basically cut them out of my life as much as possible. For example, I haven't talked to my erstwhile lead singer since our band split up, even though we were good friends previously. I can't deal with his drama, which is copious, and he ain't gonna listen to no one, so I figure why bother.
I'm not a hundred percent sure that's the same thing as "you hold grudges too long", but I don't think it could be considered one of my sterling qualities, either. Nevertheless, life is all about self-improvement in some form or another. The biggest fool is the one who thinks he has all the cards in his favor.
Susie Dow,
My brother says I suffer the same affliction. It's only when someone hoses me over in a serious way, but if they do, I basically cut them out of my life as much as possible. For example, I haven't talked to my erstwhile lead singer since our band split up, even though we were good friends previously. I can't deal with his drama, which is copious, and he ain't gonna listen to no one, so I figure why bother.
I'm not a hundred percent sure that's the same thing as "you hold grudges too long", but I don't think it could be considered one of my sterling qualities, either. Nevertheless, life is all about self-improvement in some form or another. The biggest fool is the one who thinks he has all the cards in his favor.
Is it too much to ask that you turn your car stereo down to a level that it doesn't shake my house when you drive by at 1:00 in the morning?
It is?
Damn.
Is it too much to ask that you turn your car stereo down to a level that it doesn't shake my house when you drive by at 1:00 in the morning?
It is?
Damn.
Is it too much to ask that you turn your car stereo down to a level that it doesn't shake my house when you drive by at 1:00 in the morning?
It is?
Yes, yes it is.
=====
Is it too much to ask that you turn your car stereo down to a level that it doesn't shake my house when you drive by at 1:00 in the morning?
It is?
Yes, yes it is.
=====
As inevitably as the sun rises each morning, any post on Eschaton which in any way refers to a profession of any type of religious faith will be denigrated and sneered at by those who insist that "your sky buddy is a myth." Why must it be so?
For those of you who lack the patience to allow others to hold and voice their own beliefs - beliefs which seek to deprive you of nothing, not even your own personal beliefs - are you unaware that you are being every bit as intolerant as Dobson and his ilk? Aren't we the folks who encourage a free exchange of ideas?
It's entirely possible to have religious faith without rejecting science or imposing one's personal beliefs upon others. I don't hear RMJ or anyone else proclaiming that those of you who believe differently will be burning in hell.
Since he has assiduously avoided condemnation of the beliefs of others here, no matter what they might be, what rules of civil discourse are you following that allow you to respond in full attack mode? A simple expression of one's personal beliefs is not an affront - it simply is what it is. Develop some manners; your attitude reflects poorly upon all of us.
As inevitably as the sun rises each morning, any post on Eschaton which in any way refers to a profession of any type of religious faith will be denigrated and sneered at by those who insist that "your sky buddy is a myth." Why must it be so?
For those of you who lack the patience to allow others to hold and voice their own beliefs - beliefs which seek to deprive you of nothing, not even your own personal beliefs - are you unaware that you are being every bit as intolerant as Dobson and his ilk? Aren't we the folks who encourage a free exchange of ideas?
It's entirely possible to have religious faith without rejecting science or imposing one's personal beliefs upon others. I don't hear RMJ or anyone else proclaiming that those of you who believe differently will be burning in hell.
Since he has assiduously avoided condemnation of the beliefs of others here, no matter what they might be, what rules of civil discourse are you following that allow you to respond in full attack mode? A simple expression of one's personal beliefs is not an affront - it simply is what it is. Develop some manners; your attitude reflects poorly upon all of us.
Bush Hopes to Outsource Presidency (*satire*)
WASHINGTON, D.C. – Cruising strong on the “mandate” President Bush said was passed along to him with his re-election, he announced Friday he was actively seeking to outsource his presidency and was looking for an individual to fill the role of commander in chief.
rest: http://www.tcobnow.com/?page=arc...ives/
000021.php
Bush Hopes to Outsource Presidency (*satire*)
WASHINGTON, D.C. – Cruising strong on the “mandate” President Bush said was passed along to him with his re-election, he announced Friday he was actively seeking to outsource his presidency and was looking for an individual to fill the role of commander in chief.
rest: http://www.tcobnow.com/?page=arc...ives/
000021.php
Jennifer- Just as predictable will be a response from an oversensitive poster who presumes that a "reason based" contributor is doing something other than simply joining the thread. Robert has posted and I gave it a thought and posted. That's all that is happening here. I represent nobody's thinking but my own. My comment is not Eschaton's theme. It is just one person with one comment. There is no conspiracy I am aware of to diss anyone's thoughts or conclusions of the nature of the Universe. I still am not inclined to ring the cosmic bell boy and get the early start on buying crap in the name of somebody's Lord. And this white guy in the red suit is a bit too much for me too. It has nothing to do with Robert Jeffer's faith in any personal way. If he lights candles I am a true American partiot and defend for him or anyone else their space to have at it. On the other hand the rising of the American Taliban will earn some hard criticism. I have no reason to concern myself that R. Jeffers is among that group.
Jennifer- Just as predictable will be a response from an oversensitive poster who presumes that a "reason based" contributor is doing something other than simply joining the thread. Robert has posted and I gave it a thought and posted. That's all that is happening here. I represent nobody's thinking but my own. My comment is not Eschaton's theme. It is just one person with one comment. There is no conspiracy I am aware of to diss anyone's thoughts or conclusions of the nature of the Universe. I still am not inclined to ring the cosmic bell boy and get the early start on buying crap in the name of somebody's Lord. And this white guy in the red suit is a bit too much for me too. It has nothing to do with Robert Jeffer's faith in any personal way. If he lights candles I am a true American partiot and defend for him or anyone else their space to have at it. On the other hand the rising of the American Taliban will earn some hard criticism. I have no reason to concern myself that R. Jeffers is among that group.
Well, all you leftists can suck on GW(inner)B's testaclez. John KKKerry is a looser! Keep trying to pretand to be religuz, you can't fool all us right thankin Red State manly men. Yur jus a bunch a godless pink sumsabichas. Yur pathetic whining is so SWEET!!!!!
Socialisms for foolz
Republicanz RuLz!!!!
Man, am I sick of the Equal Protection clause.
Well, all you leftists can suck on GW(inner)B's testaclez. John KKKerry is a looser! Keep trying to pretand to be religuz, you can't fool all us right thankin Red State manly men. Yur jus a bunch a godless pink sumsabichas. Yur pathetic whining is so SWEET!!!!!
Socialisms for foolz
Republicanz RuLz!!!!
Man, am I sick of the Equal Protection clause.
Oooh tomorrow I get to do attorney client privilege, JOY!
Oooh tomorrow I get to do attorney client privilege, JOY!
Ya know, the older I get and the more I study on the subject, the less of a shit I give about someone's religion or faith. It gets you through the night? Groovy, but I don't want any of your literature. And, frankly, the same goes for the evangelical atheists among us.
Just don't tell me about it. I got better things to do with my time, and unless you manage to stimulate the ol' brain cells, you're wasting it. Put up or shut up. Don't tell me your beliefs; live them. Talk is not only cheap, but it's apparently on sale these days.
Ya know, the older I get and the more I study on the subject, the less of a shit I give about someone's religion or faith. It gets you through the night? Groovy, but I don't want any of your literature. And, frankly, the same goes for the evangelical atheists among us.
Just don't tell me about it. I got better things to do with my time, and unless you manage to stimulate the ol' brain cells, you're wasting it. Put up or shut up. Don't tell me your beliefs; live them. Talk is not only cheap, but it's apparently on sale these days.
Meaning no disrespect, Father, but this stuff is one of the reasons I quit going to church when I was old enough to make my own decisions.
You lost me at the distinction between Christianity and Christendom.
Meaning no disrespect, Father, but this stuff is one of the reasons I quit going to church when I was old enough to make my own decisions.
You lost me at the distinction between Christianity and Christendom.
"Resonable human being" is an oxymoron. That's not to put down reason, but I've never met someone devoted to reason who didn't have at base an irrational motivation for being so.
"Resonable human being" is an oxymoron. That's not to put down reason, but I've never met someone devoted to reason who didn't have at base an irrational motivation for being so.
So, if you can't stimulate Backslider's brain, (which apparently the universe revolves around) everything else in this comment thread is irrelevant to the world according to Backslider. Yeah, I can live with that.... totally. So have at it.
So, if you can't stimulate Backslider's brain, (which apparently the universe revolves around) everything else in this comment thread is irrelevant to the world according to Backslider. Yeah, I can live with that.... totally. So have at it.
This is a public forum. I come in and see faith manufactured emoting, energy wasted on making practical sense of schizophrenic visions and kowtowing to a heretic preacher. I am naturally, reflexively disgusted, as if I had walked into my usual hangout and found a camp meeting of snake handlers gibbering to themselves and screeching at dimayed heathens like myself to watch in silent awe or get out. I know you have a permit to be here, but so do the heathens.
Now I will stop being polite. Fuck a personified diety. Fuck a polytheism that pretends to be monotheism by condemning half its gods. Fuck a primitive tribal self aggrandizement left over hodgepodge of litanies picked from and twisted for whatever serves the immediate purpose.
Yet Jesus is cool.
I'm glad that it's late. Noone will read this.
This is a public forum. I come in and see faith manufactured emoting, energy wasted on making practical sense of schizophrenic visions and kowtowing to a heretic preacher. I am naturally, reflexively disgusted, as if I had walked into my usual hangout and found a camp meeting of snake handlers gibbering to themselves and screeching at dimayed heathens like myself to watch in silent awe or get out. I know you have a permit to be here, but so do the heathens.
Now I will stop being polite. Fuck a personified diety. Fuck a polytheism that pretends to be monotheism by condemning half its gods. Fuck a primitive tribal self aggrandizement left over hodgepodge of litanies picked from and twisted for whatever serves the immediate purpose.
Yet Jesus is cool.
I'm glad that it's late. Noone will read this.
Jon,
"Christendom" is the institutional Christian church. "Christianity" is the actual religion which often transcends or even contradicts that institution.
Jon,
"Christendom" is the institutional Christian church. "Christianity" is the actual religion which often transcends or even contradicts that institution.
Poncho - First off, I wasn't specifically referring to you, though if your initial response was any indication of your level of thought, all I can say is it represents a severe lack of imagination on your part.
IOW, suppose your superficial and literal readings of scripture totally miss the mark, as in for example: what if Christ was simply an enlightened human being, a "son of God" in that he had divine (or divinely-inspired) wisdom as to the nature of how to improve human society in delivering a version of "heaven" (equal justice) here on Earth. Suppose, just suppose for a moment, that he was represented by his followers as the actual biological son of God because he arrived on the scene at a time when prevailing religions were full of stories of gods mating with mortals and engendering offspring who were semi-divine. There's nothing far-fetched about the idea that the gospels would have been written in a language that spoke to the people of the time.
Look, believe what you want to believe. Just don't assume that anyone who professes to faith of any type is buying into the whole earth-created-in-seven-days, man-created-wholecloth-from-dust, snake-tempting-woman, God-impregnating-mortal-woman, ad infinitum.
My own personal view, not that you asked for it, is that overly literal readings of biblical scripture only tend to obscure the message and wisdom that are there. And that worse yet, such readings and the nit-picking they inspire in folks so inclined often lead to a wholesale rejection of the gospels, so that folks of this bent miss out on the wisdom that IS there to be gleaned.
It's not hypersensitivity on my part to point out that it's offensive to assume that one knows the exact parameters of the religious beliefs of another they've never met. As I said before, it's simply bad manners to ridicule others on the basis of such assumptions. Not that you were necessarily personally making them.
Poncho - First off, I wasn't specifically referring to you, though if your initial response was any indication of your level of thought, all I can say is it represents a severe lack of imagination on your part.
IOW, suppose your superficial and literal readings of scripture totally miss the mark, as in for example: what if Christ was simply an enlightened human being, a "son of God" in that he had divine (or divinely-inspired) wisdom as to the nature of how to improve human society in delivering a version of "heaven" (equal justice) here on Earth. Suppose, just suppose for a moment, that he was represented by his followers as the actual biological son of God because he arrived on the scene at a time when prevailing religions were full of stories of gods mating with mortals and engendering offspring who were semi-divine. There's nothing far-fetched about the idea that the gospels would have been written in a language that spoke to the people of the time.
Look, believe what you want to believe. Just don't assume that anyone who professes to faith of any type is buying into the whole earth-created-in-seven-days, man-created-wholecloth-from-dust, snake-tempting-woman, God-impregnating-mortal-woman, ad infinitum.
My own personal view, not that you asked for it, is that overly literal readings of biblical scripture only tend to obscure the message and wisdom that are there. And that worse yet, such readings and the nit-picking they inspire in folks so inclined often lead to a wholesale rejection of the gospels, so that folks of this bent miss out on the wisdom that IS there to be gleaned.
It's not hypersensitivity on my part to point out that it's offensive to assume that one knows the exact parameters of the religious beliefs of another they've never met. As I said before, it's simply bad manners to ridicule others on the basis of such assumptions. Not that you were necessarily personally making them.
Jennifer | Email | Homepage | 11.29.04 - 2:17 am
Jennifer, thank you, from this agnostic who figures she Might Find Out at the appropriate time.
(Although I find the invisible-sky-buddy business to be oddly less pervasive in this thread than usual when religion comes up.)
And Backslider, thank you for the term "evangelical atheist." I may steal it during future intemperate moments. Neither that group nor the you're-going-to-hell crowd are welcome on my mental front porch.
Jennifer | Email | Homepage | 11.29.04 - 2:17 am
Jennifer, thank you, from this agnostic who figures she Might Find Out at the appropriate time.
(Although I find the invisible-sky-buddy business to be oddly less pervasive in this thread than usual when religion comes up.)
And Backslider, thank you for the term "evangelical atheist." I may steal it during future intemperate moments. Neither that group nor the you're-going-to-hell crowd are welcome on my mental front porch.
I'm about the same way. I really don't care about someone's metaphysical outlook. All I care about is how that manifests itself and what you use it to justify.
You can take a rigidly mechanistic view of the world and use that to justify eugenics, for instance.
I have no doubt that if this country were completely without religion we would see most of the same political psychoses we see now, only based on econmic, sociological, psychological, and philosophical (to name a few)differences rather than religious ones.
Not only that, you'd have the same cranks saying that, for instance, philosophical position X that conservatives use as justification is irrational even when used to espouse a liberal position.
I'm about the same way. I really don't care about someone's metaphysical outlook. All I care about is how that manifests itself and what you use it to justify.
You can take a rigidly mechanistic view of the world and use that to justify eugenics, for instance.
I have no doubt that if this country were completely without religion we would see most of the same political psychoses we see now, only based on econmic, sociological, psychological, and philosophical (to name a few)differences rather than religious ones.
Not only that, you'd have the same cranks saying that, for instance, philosophical position X that conservatives use as justification is irrational even when used to espouse a liberal position.
Poncho & Lefty,
Now, did I say that the continual running of the universe is contingent on the stimulation of the ol' brain cells? No, I did not, though according to some aspects of the holographic model, hey, who knows. And I also don't recall writing anything that said either Mr. Jeffers' original post or the comments contained herein failed to stimulate thought.
I was refering to personal expressions of faith and, more specifically, this struggle we find ourselves concerning the meaning of religion and it's place in daily and political life. Your faith - or lack thereof - means about as much to me as a tale of your last drunken experience: might be good for a thought or two but it doesn't change the price of beans in Birmingham.
Your faith is completely and totally irrelevent to me. Your actions, however, are totally relevent. Hope that clears it up.
Poncho & Lefty,
Now, did I say that the continual running of the universe is contingent on the stimulation of the ol' brain cells? No, I did not, though according to some aspects of the holographic model, hey, who knows. And I also don't recall writing anything that said either Mr. Jeffers' original post or the comments contained herein failed to stimulate thought.
I was refering to personal expressions of faith and, more specifically, this struggle we find ourselves concerning the meaning of religion and it's place in daily and political life. Your faith - or lack thereof - means about as much to me as a tale of your last drunken experience: might be good for a thought or two but it doesn't change the price of beans in Birmingham.
Your faith is completely and totally irrelevent to me. Your actions, however, are totally relevent. Hope that clears it up.
Modu potus, we all have been fortunate to have lived through our lives in a place where "reason" is considered an honored pursuit. We have not experienced the horror of say a time when Galileo began to suspect certain theories of his time were in conflict with the evidence. He landed in jail for it.
Should our civilization return to that level of accepted ignorance in the name of fairness and good manners? I think not.
Reason has prevailed at more peace accords than any religious belief ever did.
Modu potus, we all have been fortunate to have lived through our lives in a place where "reason" is considered an honored pursuit. We have not experienced the horror of say a time when Galileo began to suspect certain theories of his time were in conflict with the evidence. He landed in jail for it.
Should our civilization return to that level of accepted ignorance in the name of fairness and good manners? I think not.
Reason has prevailed at more peace accords than any religious belief ever did.
There's a workplace rule "Don't hire someone better than you because they'll make you look bad by comparison"
Atrios just broke that rule.
Awesome post, Robert.
There's a workplace rule "Don't hire someone better than you because they'll make you look bad by comparison"
Atrios just broke that rule.
Awesome post, Robert.
Yeah Backslider... that is was clear and right on the money. Thanks.
Yeah Backslider... that is was clear and right on the money. Thanks.
For what it's worth..... if there is a universal all-being omnipotent "One" it was that beings intent to bestow to me my ability to reason. The most reasonable thing to do when confronted with a litany of religious,superstitious,faith-based, 2000 year old theory that Jesus is God's cosmic bell-hop ready and waiting for me to ring the late Holy child of Nazareth at will to go fetch me a new Tivo for my family room ..... the most reasonable thing to do is quite frankly ignore it all. Jesus of Nazareth was most probably a great and humble social reformer of his times, but geezy peezy what's with all the freaking colored lights wrapped around the vinyl siding and aluminum drain spouts? I ask for relevance, not props. In honor of the enlightenred carpenter I live in Peace with all my fellow neighbors of this good Earth.
For what it's worth..... if there is a universal all-being omnipotent "One" it was that beings intent to bestow to me my ability to reason. The most reasonable thing to do when confronted with a litany of religious,superstitious,faith-based, 2000 year old theory that Jesus is God's cosmic bell-hop ready and waiting for me to ring the late Holy child of Nazareth at will to go fetch me a new Tivo for my family room ..... the most reasonable thing to do is quite frankly ignore it all. Jesus of Nazareth was most probably a great and humble social reformer of his times, but geezy peezy what's with all the freaking colored lights wrapped around the vinyl siding and aluminum drain spouts? I ask for relevance, not props. In honor of the enlightenred carpenter I live in Peace with all my fellow neighbors of this good Earth.
Whoops, my roomate causd the double post. Can't keep hands off my puter. Sorry.
Whoops, my roomate causd the double post. Can't keep hands off my puter. Sorry.
If God is so powerful,
can He make a rock that is so heavy that He Himself can’t lift it? ...
George Carlin said that.
Heh.
I said that.
If God is so powerful,
can He make a rock that is so heavy that He Himself can’t lift it? ...
George Carlin said that.
Heh.
I said that.
Should our civilization return to that level of accepted ignorance in the name of fairness and good manners? I think not.
Reason has prevailed at more peace accords than any religious belief ever did.
No one is saying that we need to return to the Dark Ages. No one on this thread has ever even intimated that (unless I'm forgeting some troll up there).
Religion has been a positive social force in the history of this country (abolition, civil rights). It has also been a negative social force throughout history.
But the psychoses of humanity that have allowed religion to be a negative social force aren't really particular to religion. Communism was supposed to be completely athiestic and it killed a hell of a lot of people. The human pathology allowing ideology to mask the humanity of the other just is quite simply not limited to religious belief. People do nutty ass shit for all kinds of reasons.
Should our civilization return to that level of accepted ignorance in the name of fairness and good manners? I think not.
Reason has prevailed at more peace accords than any religious belief ever did.
No one is saying that we need to return to the Dark Ages. No one on this thread has ever even intimated that (unless I'm forgeting some troll up there).
Religion has been a positive social force in the history of this country (abolition, civil rights). It has also been a negative social force throughout history.
But the psychoses of humanity that have allowed religion to be a negative social force aren't really particular to religion. Communism was supposed to be completely athiestic and it killed a hell of a lot of people. The human pathology allowing ideology to mask the humanity of the other just is quite simply not limited to religious belief. People do nutty ass shit for all kinds of reasons.
"If God is so powerful,
can He make a rock that is so heavy that He Himself can’t lift it? ..."
Any god I'd be interested in doesn't get into pissing contests with rocks.
Unless you mean that "clobberin' time!" guy from "Fantatic Four" - He was cool...
.
"If God is so powerful,
can He make a rock that is so heavy that He Himself can’t lift it? ..."
Any god I'd be interested in doesn't get into pissing contests with rocks.
Unless you mean that "clobberin' time!" guy from "Fantatic Four" - He was cool...
.
Well, a philosophical theist would argue that the concept of a rock so heavy that God can't lift it is a logical impossibility. It's like asking if God could create a square circle or make 1+2=4.
But that of course is problematic in its own right.
I always liked Spinoza, though, who argued that since God was perfect he was incapable of action (since action was change and change would render him imperfect).
Well, a philosophical theist would argue that the concept of a rock so heavy that God can't lift it is a logical impossibility. It's like asking if God could create a square circle or make 1+2=4.
But that of course is problematic in its own right.
I always liked Spinoza, though, who argued that since God was perfect he was incapable of action (since action was change and change would render him imperfect).
"Reason" kept us on the brink of nuclear armageddon for over a generation. How many RAND Corporation studies of nuclear warfighting and deterrence do you need to read to see how empty "human reason" can become?
And this is just one of the 20th cenury horrors we "reasoned" our way into.
Trying to be a "reasonable human being" is inhuman. It's engaging the world with one hand tied behind ones back. It's the "how" without the "why."
Reason is an ideal. Here in the real world things are much more messy, and we're neck-deep in the irrational. Reasoning about the unreasonable can only go so far in dealing with it. We must embrace who we are. Reasonably, we have little more significance -- and far less permanence -- than a proton does in the grandness of the universe. To find meaning, we must embrace the irrational. Only then is reasoning worthwhile.
"Reason" kept us on the brink of nuclear armageddon for over a generation. How many RAND Corporation studies of nuclear warfighting and deterrence do you need to read to see how empty "human reason" can become?
And this is just one of the 20th cenury horrors we "reasoned" our way into.
Trying to be a "reasonable human being" is inhuman. It's engaging the world with one hand tied behind ones back. It's the "how" without the "why."
Reason is an ideal. Here in the real world things are much more messy, and we're neck-deep in the irrational. Reasoning about the unreasonable can only go so far in dealing with it. We must embrace who we are. Reasonably, we have little more significance -- and far less permanence -- than a proton does in the grandness of the universe. To find meaning, we must embrace the irrational. Only then is reasoning worthwhile.
I haven't the time or energy to read all the way through the comments. My apologies if someone's already said this. What I see in this story is yet another woman, humiliated, beaten, raped, tortured, who has to put aside her pain, her anguish, her anger in order to comfort a man who cannot deal with what has been done to her.
Nuts.
MKK
I haven't the time or energy to read all the way through the comments. My apologies if someone's already said this. What I see in this story is yet another woman, humiliated, beaten, raped, tortured, who has to put aside her pain, her anguish, her anger in order to comfort a man who cannot deal with what has been done to her.
Nuts.
MKK
Yep Mary Kay, what you have is a woman practicing the very humanity towards the priest who has failed her and the rest of the El Salvadorans subject to the brutality of the death squads that the priest has preached towards the death squads in his panglossian ivory tower.
The priest is finally confronted with this woman's hatred caused by his complicity in not speaking out against evil. He is confronted with his own failure, preaching against hatred but doing nothing to prevent it. He is confronted with his own responsibility, in other words.
"I don't want to know."
Yep Mary Kay, what you have is a woman practicing the very humanity towards the priest who has failed her and the rest of the El Salvadorans subject to the brutality of the death squads that the priest has preached towards the death squads in his panglossian ivory tower.
The priest is finally confronted with this woman's hatred caused by his complicity in not speaking out against evil. He is confronted with his own failure, preaching against hatred but doing nothing to prevent it. He is confronted with his own responsibility, in other words.
"I don't want to know."
What gets me about Christianity, the American version in particular, is the emphasis on belief.
Do you think anybody really cares what you believe? Does anyone truly think upon reflection "Though my best buddy doesn't give a damn, surely my beliefs are of utmost importance to God!". Or, even worse, that your beliefs have anything at all to do with the *truth*?
Western and Christian emphasis on belief seems to me to be a perversion of the the majority of human culture, and has led to some very bad conclusions.
My view of this short story of Arch Bishop Romero is that this is his moment of realization that Jesus wasn't a religious leader at all, he was a political leader.
He used the language of heaven, but His messages were all about Earthly life. He used the language of the soul, but what He asked for was action. He promises personal salvation, but what He demanded is thought beyond one's self.
Romero realized that a true follower of Christ is not one who believes in the divinity and the resurection. a true follower of Christ is not one who's eschewed earthly thoughts for thoughts of heaven, assured of his place by Christ's side upon death.
A true follower of Christ *follows* Christ. A true follower goes where He went. A true follower does what He did, says what He said. A true follower dies how He died.
What gets me about Christianity, the American version in particular, is the emphasis on belief.
Do you think anybody really cares what you believe? Does anyone truly think upon reflection "Though my best buddy doesn't give a damn, surely my beliefs are of utmost importance to God!". Or, even worse, that your beliefs have anything at all to do with the *truth*?
Western and Christian emphasis on belief seems to me to be a perversion of the the majority of human culture, and has led to some very bad conclusions.
My view of this short story of Arch Bishop Romero is that this is his moment of realization that Jesus wasn't a religious leader at all, he was a political leader.
He used the language of heaven, but His messages were all about Earthly life. He used the language of the soul, but what He asked for was action. He promises personal salvation, but what He demanded is thought beyond one's self.
Romero realized that a true follower of Christ is not one who believes in the divinity and the resurection. a true follower of Christ is not one who's eschewed earthly thoughts for thoughts of heaven, assured of his place by Christ's side upon death.
A true follower of Christ *follows* Christ. A true follower goes where He went. A true follower does what He did, says what He said. A true follower dies how He died.
Modus Potus: Reason brought on the possibility of nuclear armeggedon? Wasn't it fear? Wasn't it Darwinian domination? Just thinking out loud? To put my proverbial agnostic ass on the line I will say this. To me reason is an ideal, however it is also a deliberate process enacted individually and communally to harness conviction brought on by emotional,biased,primal influences which often premeditate self-deluding,life destructing,reality disconnected actions inconsistent with the more vital need to interact cooperatively and progressively evolve in our natural physical existence and realtions with the Earth. All of this appears to have happened in some way to Romero in the moments he was with Marianela. He could no longer tolerate his own bullshit. Well at least that's how it seems to me.
Modus Potus: Reason brought on the possibility of nuclear armeggedon? Wasn't it fear? Wasn't it Darwinian domination? Just thinking out loud? To put my proverbial agnostic ass on the line I will say this. To me reason is an ideal, however it is also a deliberate process enacted individually and communally to harness conviction brought on by emotional,biased,primal influences which often premeditate self-deluding,life destructing,reality disconnected actions inconsistent with the more vital need to interact cooperatively and progressively evolve in our natural physical existence and realtions with the Earth. All of this appears to have happened in some way to Romero in the moments he was with Marianela. He could no longer tolerate his own bullshit. Well at least that's how it seems to me.
"Reason" kept us on the brink of nuclear armageddon for over a generation.
On the contrary, it was only unflinching reason on both sides that kept us from it.
By unflinching, I mean that it did not recoil from calculations that are abhorrent to human nature, or fail to take into account those aspects of human nature we don't like to talk about.
"Reason" kept us on the brink of nuclear armageddon for over a generation.
On the contrary, it was only unflinching reason on both sides that kept us from it.
By unflinching, I mean that it did not recoil from calculations that are abhorrent to human nature, or fail to take into account those aspects of human nature we don't like to talk about.
I know this is tremendously late in the thread, but I just wanted to say: RMJ, you rock.
I know this is tremendously late in the thread, but I just wanted to say: RMJ, you rock.
Atrios! Pull the plug on all these crackpots before your blog completely jumps the shark!
Atrios! Pull the plug on all these crackpots before your blog completely jumps the shark!
Robert, if you have the time, you should seriously consider starting your own blog.
As Filkertom above me said: You rock!
Robert, if you have the time, you should seriously consider starting your own blog.
As Filkertom above me said: You rock!
Robert Downey Jr. on Fresh Air
Robert Downey Jr. on Fresh Air
Robert,
We need to hear more from the Christian left, much more. Thanks for this post.
Robert,
We need to hear more from the Christian left, much more. Thanks for this post.
Robert, good post.
So many confuse religion with religiosity, or perhaps the more tortured word, 'religionistic,' which refers to a behavior.
Robert, I think the arch fundies are deceived. They will get only what the neos will allow them to have. Bush may press for some issues near and dear to the fundies, but Karl is not about to see his work undone as pertains to the Republican stranglehold on Congress, by alarming and revolting the public.
A public that is suddenly recoiled because of bizarre "blue" laws dumped upon them by well meaning ideologues and dogmatists is the absolute last thing the Repubs could want.
The Evangelicals have been used as "Useful Idiots."
Election theft is not yet a fine art, though there is no lack of trying on anyone's part.
It will be quite amusing to watch the holy roly gang as it wakes up. Talk about your speaking in tongues! Such tongues should tell quite a story of woe!
The neos want the "Foolers" from earlier times back, and that's about all.
I don't think the holy-roly crowd is going to like that.
Robert, good post.
So many confuse religion with religiosity, or perhaps the more tortured word, 'religionistic,' which refers to a behavior.
Robert, I think the arch fundies are deceived. They will get only what the neos will allow them to have. Bush may press for some issues near and dear to the fundies, but Karl is not about to see his work undone as pertains to the Republican stranglehold on Congress, by alarming and revolting the public.
A public that is suddenly recoiled because of bizarre "blue" laws dumped upon them by well meaning ideologues and dogmatists is the absolute last thing the Repubs could want.
The Evangelicals have been used as "Useful Idiots."
Election theft is not yet a fine art, though there is no lack of trying on anyone's part.
It will be quite amusing to watch the holy roly gang as it wakes up. Talk about your speaking in tongues! Such tongues should tell quite a story of woe!
The neos want the "Foolers" from earlier times back, and that's about all.
I don't think the holy-roly crowd is going to like that.
Atrios! Pull the plug on all these crackpots before your blog completely jumps the shark!
Buck
I don't think some crackpots can end this blog. I think a truly jump the shark would be if a regular poster fakes their own death "after a lengthy illness" and returns as another poster but is discovered.
Atrios! Pull the plug on all these crackpots before your blog completely jumps the shark!
Buck
I don't think some crackpots can end this blog. I think a truly jump the shark would be if a regular poster fakes their own death "after a lengthy illness" and returns as another poster but is discovered.
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"If God is so powerful,
can He make a rock that is so heavy that He Himself can’t lift it? ..."
Or, as Homer Jay put it:
"Could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that He himself could not eat it?"
"If God is so powerful,
can He make a rock that is so heavy that He Himself can’t lift it? ..."
Or, as Homer Jay put it:
"Could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that He himself could not eat it?"
"belief" = correct thoughts
"belief" = correct thoughts
I saw posted on a roadside sign the title of the Sunday message at a church in Allentown this week:
"Waiting for war to end"
I said to my wife: "Shouldn't Christians be working for war to end?"
She grunted her assent as we two atheists/agnostics drove on....
That's what they were doing standing out there with those signs, Hudson.
Great post, Robert. That's the kind of religion I in which I was raised. There is some truth to the comments people have made about the major religions preferring certitude and dogma. Yet I think that real religion begins with doubt, questioning, and reluctantly facing very hard facts. The distinction between Christianity and Christendom is apropos.
I hope you stay in this business, though I'm sorry to hear that there doesn't seem to be a place for you in the UCC.
I saw posted on a roadside sign the title of the Sunday message at a church in Allentown this week:
"Waiting for war to end"
I said to my wife: "Shouldn't Christians be working for war to end?"
She grunted her assent as we two atheists/agnostics drove on....
That's what they were doing standing out there with those signs, Hudson.
Great post, Robert. That's the kind of religion I in which I was raised. There is some truth to the comments people have made about the major religions preferring certitude and dogma. Yet I think that real religion begins with doubt, questioning, and reluctantly facing very hard facts. The distinction between Christianity and Christendom is apropos.
I hope you stay in this business, though I'm sorry to hear that there doesn't seem to be a place for you in the UCC.
Robert-
Another 'former' clergy here, and I appreciate your sensitivity regarding the season of Advent. I was in seminary during the early 80s and made several trips from Durham NC to DC to protest all the happenings in central America(funny, we seemed to be on the side of the terrorists back then). Hope to have another reading for the secondweek of Advent.
Robert-
Another 'former' clergy here, and I appreciate your sensitivity regarding the season of Advent. I was in seminary during the early 80s and made several trips from Durham NC to DC to protest all the happenings in central America(funny, we seemed to be on the side of the terrorists back then). Hope to have another reading for the secondweek of Advent.
Loved The Sparrow and Children of God. And I'm a Unitarian!
Loved The Sparrow and Children of God. And I'm a Unitarian!
Phoenix woman -- didn't he continue to be a priest?
I don't see how this encounter changed him -- he went out and fought for human rights, fine. But he didn't renounce the very property that made him unable to comfort this woman -- your terms. In his belief system, what happened to her (and what happens to thousands every day) was less important than continuing to believe in a supreme male deity and the teachings of the church
blaise | Email | Homepage | 11.29.04 - 12:53 am | #
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if human rights are not women's rights, then they are not human rights
blaise | Email | Homepage | 11.29.04 - 12:55 am | #
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Sounds to me like "Blaise" has some real emotional baggage? Carrying around of unresolved emotional scars from your past having to do with victimization by men, are you?
Hmmm.
You woudn't happen to be Hecate posting under another name, would you?
Phoenix woman -- didn't he continue to be a priest?
I don't see how this encounter changed him -- he went out and fought for human rights, fine. But he didn't renounce the very property that made him unable to comfort this woman -- your terms. In his belief system, what happened to her (and what happens to thousands every day) was less important than continuing to believe in a supreme male deity and the teachings of the church
blaise | Email | Homepage | 11.29.04 - 12:53 am | #
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if human rights are not women's rights, then they are not human rights
blaise | Email | Homepage | 11.29.04 - 12:55 am | #
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Sounds to me like "Blaise" has some real emotional baggage? Carrying around of unresolved emotional scars from your past having to do with victimization by men, are you?
Hmmm.
You woudn't happen to be Hecate posting under another name, would you?
"I mean, religion has been theatre from day one."
--Actually, it's the other way around. Theater has been religion from day one. If you don't believe me, consider the birthplace of all theater (ancient Greece) and how the Greek dramatic festivals were part and parcel of the Greek's religious celebrations and contemplations of the deeper issues of life.
--At least in the west, without religious beliefs there never would have been theater.
"I mean, religion has been theatre from day one."
--Actually, it's the other way around. Theater has been religion from day one. If you don't believe me, consider the birthplace of all theater (ancient Greece) and how the Greek dramatic festivals were part and parcel of the Greek's religious celebrations and contemplations of the deeper issues of life.
--At least in the west, without religious beliefs there never would have been theater.
Doubt. The most troubling, the most difficult to deal with. This clear-eyed Christianity that wields a sword is quite foreign to my world which is drenched with doubt.
Even Christ doubted, in the Garden.
Doubt. The most troubling, the most difficult to deal with. This clear-eyed Christianity that wields a sword is quite foreign to my world which is drenched with doubt.
Even Christ doubted, in the Garden.
Thank you for this beautiful reading of Advent. I'm a practicing catholic ad i'd never been enlightened in this way concerning its deep symbolism and its sober call to change.
Thank you for this beautiful reading of Advent. I'm a practicing catholic ad i'd never been enlightened in this way concerning its deep symbolism and its sober call to change.
Nice post, Robert -- I'd like to say I'm disappointed by some of the nastiness I've seen in scrolling through the comments on it, but after the past three weeks of counterproductive, vitrolic anti-"Red" backlash it's pretty much par for the course.
Oh, and BTW, the Episcopal Church welcomes you! (although I'm afraid that here in the Dio of Pittsburgh you may have to be careful which parish you seek that welcome from...)
Nice post, Robert -- I'd like to say I'm disappointed by some of the nastiness I've seen in scrolling through the comments on it, but after the past three weeks of counterproductive, vitrolic anti-"Red" backlash it's pretty much par for the course.
Oh, and BTW, the Episcopal Church welcomes you! (although I'm afraid that here in the Dio of Pittsburgh you may have to be careful which parish you seek that welcome from...)
YOU CAN FOOL SOME OF THE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME, ALL OF THE PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME, AND...
****ALL OF THE FAITHFULL ALL OF THE TIME*****
(And you can take that one to the
f'n bank, baby!)
YOU CAN FOOL SOME OF THE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME, ALL OF THE PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME, AND...
****ALL OF THE FAITHFULL ALL OF THE TIME*****
(And you can take that one to the
f'n bank, baby!)
Just want to say I'm glad this blog welcomes voices that are inspired by religious faith. I'm a "cultural Christian" with no more than the vague transcendant faith of a secular humanist who didn't abandon belief in the message of the Sermon on the Mount when I quit believing in "God". Certain gospel songs still bring me close to tears. There's a great Iris Dement song - "Let The Mystery Be" - which allows for "religious" feelings without any bows to reductionist religious dogma. And frankly, most religion that is traded in the public square is crackpot dogmatics, and more often than not crassly commercialized. Don't get me started on those greaseball TV evangelists, or that pitchman of Bourgeois Success, the execrable Robert Schuller of the Smiley Face Sabbath. Watching the Catholic Church lawyer up in recent years was one sorry spectacle and confirmed every negative thought I've ever thought about them. Yet, I'm glad that Catholic Charities exists and it's hard to think of anyplace outside of certain churches where some friendless, lonely, humble person could go and join hands with others and have their humanity affirmed. So, though I'm not inclined to join up, thank gawd for the Unitarians and Reform Jews and similiar folks who have homes in other denominations, where you don't have to suck up anybody else's crap in order to celebrate life when you're so inclined.
I don't know what the hell this Advent story means, but I think that the heavy-handed feminist reactions miss the point. Which is the priest's weakness and the woman's strength - and the fact that there are times when confronted with some of life's horrors any human being in their right mind would find the glue that holds them together - be it rational, spiritual, or some combination thereof - inadequate to any understanding. That's when we cry... In this story (parable ?), the one who is expected to have the answer finds that the only answer is comfort from the seeker. And that provides the seeker with an answer and a strength that no one else could give them - it came from within herself when even her priest couldn't touch her pain. Surely the "anti-religious" crowd should see the message here...that the priesthood isn't some all-powerful center of spiritual strength and the scriptures are flawed and often fail - it's really all about how we deal with each other when faced with the tough stuff.
The inability of the church patriarchy to measure up in this tableau is the whole goddam point. So why don't you carpers just take "Yes!" for an answer.
Traditional religion doesn't have much in the way of answers, but the questions are central.
As for faith, like I told the Jehovah's Witness who came to my door not long ago, I don't have a clue about God, but I still try to live my life according to the admonition, "Love your neighbor like yourself." Can't really measure up, but I try and never forget the importance of the messag
Just want to say I'm glad this blog welcomes voices that are inspired by religious faith. I'm a "cultural Christian" with no more than the vague transcendant faith of a secular humanist who didn't abandon belief in the message of the Sermon on the Mount when I quit believing in "God". Certain gospel songs still bring me close to tears. There's a great Iris Dement song - "Let The Mystery Be" - which allows for "religious" feelings without any bows to reductionist religious dogma. And frankly, most religion that is traded in the public square is crackpot dogmatics, and more often than not crassly commercialized. Don't get me started on those greaseball TV evangelists, or that pitchman of Bourgeois Success, the execrable Robert Schuller of the Smiley Face Sabbath. Watching the Catholic Church lawyer up in recent years was one sorry spectacle and confirmed every negative thought I've ever thought about them. Yet, I'm glad that Catholic Charities exists and it's hard to think of anyplace outside of certain churches where some friendless, lonely, humble person could go and join hands with others and have their humanity affirmed. So, though I'm not inclined to join up, thank gawd for the Unitarians and Reform Jews and similiar folks who have homes in other denominations, where you don't have to suck up anybody else's crap in order to celebrate life when you're so inclined.
I don't know what the hell this Advent story means, but I think that the heavy-handed feminist reactions miss the point. Which is the priest's weakness and the woman's strength - and the fact that there are times when confronted with some of life's horrors any human being in their right mind would find the glue that holds them together - be it rational, spiritual, or some combination thereof - inadequate to any understanding. That's when we cry... In this story (parable ?), the one who is expected to have the answer finds that the only answer is comfort from the seeker. And that provides the seeker with an answer and a strength that no one else could give them - it came from within herself when even her priest couldn't touch her pain. Surely the "anti-religious" crowd should see the message here...that the priesthood isn't some all-powerful center of spiritual strength and the scriptures are flawed and often fail - it's really all about how we deal with each other when faced with the tough stuff.
The inability of the church patriarchy to measure up in this tableau is the whole goddam point. So why don't you carpers just take "Yes!" for an answer.
Traditional religion doesn't have much in the way of answers, but the questions are central.
As for faith, like I told the Jehovah's Witness who came to my door not long ago, I don't have a clue about God, but I still try to live my life according to the admonition, "Love your neighbor like yourself." Can't really measure up, but I try and never forget the importance of the messag
My humorous, but way long Jehovahs Witness story got cut. No big deal.
Just wanted to tack on the thought that the skeptics among us need the religious folk to keep prodding with questions that tend to get lost in the daily fray and the religious folk need us to keep them honest.
Glad you're here and around and about.
My humorous, but way long Jehovahs Witness story got cut. No big deal.
Just wanted to tack on the thought that the skeptics among us need the religious folk to keep prodding with questions that tend to get lost in the daily fray and the religious folk need us to keep them honest.
Glad you're here and around and about.
With all due respect to the late Archbishop, the scene you describe is an instance of moral failure on his part, which he would be ashamed to see publicized.
You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,
that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
Matthew 5: 43-45
Archbishop Romero well knew, from the Catholic Catechism:
549 By freeing some individuals from the earthly evils of hunger, injustice, illness and death, Jesus performed messianic signs. Nevertheless he did not come to abolish all evils here below, but to free men from the gravest slavery, sin, which thwarts them in their vocation as God's sons and causes all forms of human bondage.
[my emphasis]
With all due respect to the late Archbishop, the scene you describe is an instance of moral failure on his part, which he would be ashamed to see publicized.
You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,
that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
Matthew 5: 43-45
Archbishop Romero well knew, from the Catholic Catechism:
549 By freeing some individuals from the earthly evils of hunger, injustice, illness and death, Jesus performed messianic signs. Nevertheless he did not come to abolish all evils here below, but to free men from the gravest slavery, sin, which thwarts them in their vocation as God's sons and causes all forms of human bondage.
[my emphasis]
With all due respect to the late Archbishop, the scene you describe is an instance of moral failure on his part, which he would be ashamed to see publicized.
Refusing to tell a rape victim that her rape is part of God's plan is hardly a question of "moral failure."
What Romero began offering was bland generalizations. But speaking to the victim personally, rather than their representative (which Vilas usually was), he was clearly unable to offer such empty platitudes.
Any pastor or priest worthy of his/her calling will tell you that responding to people in such a situation with mere platitudes is the moral failure.
With all due respect to the late Archbishop, the scene you describe is an instance of moral failure on his part, which he would be ashamed to see publicized.
Refusing to tell a rape victim that her rape is part of God's plan is hardly a question of "moral failure."
What Romero began offering was bland generalizations. But speaking to the victim personally, rather than their representative (which Vilas usually was), he was clearly unable to offer such empty platitudes.
Any pastor or priest worthy of his/her calling will tell you that responding to people in such a situation with mere platitudes is the moral failure.
Robert, I hope you'll consider setting up your own 'blog. I've really enjoyed your contributions to Eschaton.
Enoch Root
Ditto. Alternatively, I'll gladly give you the keys to mine.
Robert, I hope you'll consider setting up your own 'blog. I've really enjoyed your contributions to Eschaton.
Enoch Root
Ditto. Alternatively, I'll gladly give you the keys to mine.
Good Post Mr Jeffers!
Good Post Mr Jeffers!
Thankx RMJ. At yesterday's homily, the priest was talking about watching as well. He also got into the paradoxical OT/NT view. Are we looking for Zion here and now, as in Isaiah, or there and then.
Thankx RMJ. At yesterday's homily, the priest was talking about watching as well. He also got into the paradoxical OT/NT view. Are we looking for Zion here and now, as in Isaiah, or there and then.
Atrios, please take away Jeffers' keys. I don't want to hear Christian propaganda disguised with a liberal tinge.
Yes, there are liberal atheists. I am not intolerant, but I am very tired of this shit.
Atrios, please take away Jeffers' keys. I don't want to hear Christian propaganda disguised with a liberal tinge.
Yes, there are liberal atheists. I am not intolerant, but I am very tired of this shit.
With all due respect to the late Archbishop, the scene you describe is an instance of moral failure on his part, which he would be ashamed to see publicized.
I don't see it as a moral failure, but a resurgence of real compassion.
It's too easy sometimes for people to generalize about a horror they hear about on teevee or the radio or talking to people over dinner... Oh, how awful, but they must have been doing something wrong, or it's just God's great plan, or destiny, or fate, or blahblahblah.
But how easy is that to say to the victim's face? That they deserved it? Or perhaps worse, that they didn't deserve it, but that they just need to deal with it because that's how the universe works?
The simple hollow platitudes he was used to handing out were finally revealed to him as utterly insufficient to fulfill his duties. By no means is this a moral failure on his part... If anything it gave him an opportunity to develop greater moral strength.
With all due respect to the late Archbishop, the scene you describe is an instance of moral failure on his part, which he would be ashamed to see publicized.
I don't see it as a moral failure, but a resurgence of real compassion.
It's too easy sometimes for people to generalize about a horror they hear about on teevee or the radio or talking to people over dinner... Oh, how awful, but they must have been doing something wrong, or it's just God's great plan, or destiny, or fate, or blahblahblah.
But how easy is that to say to the victim's face? That they deserved it? Or perhaps worse, that they didn't deserve it, but that they just need to deal with it because that's how the universe works?
The simple hollow platitudes he was used to handing out were finally revealed to him as utterly insufficient to fulfill his duties. By no means is this a moral failure on his part... If anything it gave him an opportunity to develop greater moral strength.
Rev. Jeffers, I believe I know that series of sourcebooks. A publisher in Chicago, yes no?
The comments, yours and someone else's, about a need for liturgy and the richness of Catholic symbolism, are why I'm still Catholic. The liturgy (when it's done thoughtfully and well, with dignity and grace) offers meaningfulness that words can't extend to -- at least that's my take. The music is a big part of it. My parish is historically German (although now mostly populated by Irish-Americans) and German Catholicism means music. There's a reason why the church was historically the greatest patron of artists and musicians -- the arts speak to the soul.
I'm rambling. As a simple Italian said long ago, "Preach the gospel always. If necessary, use words."
Rev. Jeffers, I believe I know that series of sourcebooks. A publisher in Chicago, yes no?
The comments, yours and someone else's, about a need for liturgy and the richness of Catholic symbolism, are why I'm still Catholic. The liturgy (when it's done thoughtfully and well, with dignity and grace) offers meaningfulness that words can't extend to -- at least that's my take. The music is a big part of it. My parish is historically German (although now mostly populated by Irish-Americans) and German Catholicism means music. There's a reason why the church was historically the greatest patron of artists and musicians -- the arts speak to the soul.
I'm rambling. As a simple Italian said long ago, "Preach the gospel always. If necessary, use words."
According to Jeffers, Christianity is
Self-pity on a stick.
The woman is raped, tortured, and the Cardinal is crying for himself. Incredible.
Since he's agonized, therefore he's religious? That fits with the deification of the Cross, but it fails the woman. No matter how much he sits and cries, it was she who was ACTUALLY raped and tortured. He just feels sorry for himself in the face of the evil.
I'll stick with "God and Thomas Jefferson", thanks. We fight evil; we don't sit and cry about how frightening it is.
--
According to Jeffers, Christianity is
Self-pity on a stick.
The woman is raped, tortured, and the Cardinal is crying for himself. Incredible.
Since he's agonized, therefore he's religious? That fits with the deification of the Cross, but it fails the woman. No matter how much he sits and cries, it was she who was ACTUALLY raped and tortured. He just feels sorry for himself in the face of the evil.
I'll stick with "God and Thomas Jefferson", thanks. We fight evil; we don't sit and cry about how frightening it is.
--
I'll stick with "God and Thomas Jefferson", thanks. We fight evil; we don't sit and cry about how frightening it is.
When you've done as much to fight evil as Romero, come back (from the grave) and tell us all about it.
Failing that, educate yourself about the man's life and death, or shut up.
I'll stick with "God and Thomas Jefferson", thanks. We fight evil; we don't sit and cry about how frightening it is.
When you've done as much to fight evil as Romero, come back (from the grave) and tell us all about it.
Failing that, educate yourself about the man's life and death, or shut up.
When you've done as much to fight evil as Romero, come back (from the grave) and tell us all about it.
I was considering "Get Jefferson to teach you reading comprehension," but yours'll do.
When you've done as much to fight evil as Romero, come back (from the grave) and tell us all about it.
I was considering "Get Jefferson to teach you reading comprehension," but yours'll do.
It's not Romero who is the target of what I said; it's the SELF-PITYING version of that moment in his life.
Jeffers leaves it SOLIDLY in the appeasement camp of hanging your Xtian head over evil and "not wanting to know" and "waiting."
If you can't understand the power of stories instead of the power of someone's life, especially someone who fought long and hard for freedom, then I guess you can have your moment of righteousness, but let me mention one slight fact:
I'm in the streets protesting this afternoon. You?
--
It's not Romero who is the target of what I said; it's the SELF-PITYING version of that moment in his life.
Jeffers leaves it SOLIDLY in the appeasement camp of hanging your Xtian head over evil and "not wanting to know" and "waiting."
If you can't understand the power of stories instead of the power of someone's life, especially someone who fought long and hard for freedom, then I guess you can have your moment of righteousness, but let me mention one slight fact:
I'm in the streets protesting this afternoon. You?
--
Click below for a link to a short bio of Romero. This leads to a collection of passages from his writings.
Click below for a link to a short bio of Romero. This leads to a collection of passages from his writings.
Richard,
Indeed, Jesus told the prayerful to go to their closets to pray. This phoney, sanctimonious public false piousness was repugnebt to the historic reading of Jesus and the Gospels I have read.
bigvic |
Jesus' coming out of the closet tour? The General is quite marvelous. (OT--and just to reveal that I actually do have "guy" characteristics, the Raiders victory just now was bloody incredible.)
rorschach | Rors, my politics blogging at finheaven and raiderfans were pulled. The raiderfans site pulled their entire blog and I write there.
The finheaven crew has a rpug there (former aissistant to a NJ ass't gov) and he contributes to gain censor power and he removed almost every post I made there.
Taking the fight to them is fun, but unless they can change content they do not wish to have doscourse.
And yes Oakland kicked theirs and the Ref's ass in the snow. Champ Bailey got an early Christmas card from Jerry Porter in the Snow. It was a big FOR RENT sign that he stuck on the corner's back with 3 TD worth of duct tape...
union @12:28- the Steve Vai song Here and Now.
"Woooooow, hooow
but tell Me are You ready
*for*
*the*
* Here and Now! *"
rors @12:28 agreed, filter what you like out of religion and celebrate it even as an atheist. Perhaps you're more of a Deist.
Richard,
Indeed, Jesus told the prayerful to go to their closets to pray. This phoney, sanctimonious public false piousness was repugnebt to the historic reading of Jesus and the Gospels I have read.
bigvic |
Jesus' coming out of the closet tour? The General is quite marvelous. (OT--and just to reveal that I actually do have "guy" characteristics, the Raiders victory just now was bloody incredible.)
rorschach | Rors, my politics blogging at finheaven and raiderfans were pulled. The raiderfans site pulled their entire blog and I write there.
The finheaven crew has a rpug there (former aissistant to a NJ ass't gov) and he contributes to gain censor power and he removed almost every post I made there.
Taking the fight to them is fun, but unless they can change content they do not wish to have doscourse.
And yes Oakland kicked theirs and the Ref's ass in the snow. Champ Bailey got an early Christmas card from Jerry Porter in the Snow. It was a big FOR RENT sign that he stuck on the corner's back with 3 TD worth of duct tape...
union @12:28- the Steve Vai song Here and Now.
"Woooooow, hooow
but tell Me are You ready
*for*
*the*
* Here and Now! *"
rors @12:28 agreed, filter what you like out of religion and celebrate it even as an atheist. Perhaps you're more of a Deist.
I'm in the streets protesting this afternoon. You?
Funny. You seem to be here making ignorant and unfounded allegations and responding to other posts.
Protesting from a laptop with wi-fi, are we?