I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
I'm not a propponent of privitization, regardless of the scheme they want to push through congress. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Somethings are better left alone. If anything, we need more Social Security money for the elderly and the disabled, not less.
I'm not a propponent of privitization, regardless of the scheme they want to push through congress. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Somethings are better left alone. If anything, we need more Social Security money for the elderly and the disabled, not less.
And no reverse insurance, for Christ's sake!
And no reverse insurance, for Christ's sake!
first ?
remember what the point is : due to
globalization, American workers
and Chinese workers are going to
end up at approximately the same
wage and benefits (health care,
pension, education, environment).
Bush has chosen the path that rather
than bring the workers of the world to a US level, he'll bring the US
worker to their level.
first ?
remember what the point is : due to
globalization, American workers
and Chinese workers are going to
end up at approximately the same
wage and benefits (health care,
pension, education, environment).
Bush has chosen the path that rather
than bring the workers of the world to a US level, he'll bring the US
worker to their level.
I'm supposed to be working, and I end up playing all by myself on this thread, where are you, friends?
Helllooooo....{{{{echo}}}}
I'm supposed to be working, and I end up playing all by myself on this thread, where are you, friends?
Helllooooo....{{{{echo}}}}
Social Security abolition system is a great phrase, I plan to steal it early and often.
And the media will be worse than useless in all this, the News Hour has joined the Social Security hoax
Social Security abolition system is a great phrase, I plan to steal it early and often.
And the media will be worse than useless in all this, the News Hour has joined the Social Security hoax
Vicki:
I hear ya!
Vicki:
I hear ya!
THere is an aspect of the privatization problem I rarely see mentioned. One of the excuses for "privatization" is that is the claim that the simultaneous retirement of so many in the baby boom generation would place a great strain on Social Security. How would "private" investments solve that problem? What would happen to the value of the investments if so many are trying to sell simultaneously?
THere is an aspect of the privatization problem I rarely see mentioned. One of the excuses for "privatization" is that is the claim that the simultaneous retirement of so many in the baby boom generation would place a great strain on Social Security. How would "private" investments solve that problem? What would happen to the value of the investments if so many are trying to sell simultaneously?
I think you have to go with Super Nukkular Fuck Abominable, even sight unseen, unless you can find a single instance where the Bush Administration and Congress' utter capitulation to big corporations (think the perscription drug bill) was less bad than originally feared.
I think you have to go with Super Nukkular Fuck Abominable, even sight unseen, unless you can find a single instance where the Bush Administration and Congress' utter capitulation to big corporations (think the perscription drug bill) was less bad than originally feared.
I have been watching the economic summit -- in fact a love-in among conservatives -- with "shock and awe". The level of irresponsibility, disinformation and lying has risen to a new level with this administration. The sheer lack of any economic insight or ability is mindnumbing. Bush's plan is a recipe for disaster that will destroy the US and make us a third world debtor nation. Here is how.
Diaries :: bonddad's diary ::
First, let's look at the current relevant facts. The US currently has total debt outstanding of roughly 7 trillion dollars. We have a trade imbalance of 50 billion/month and a fiscal deficit of 400 billion. In other words, we owe a ton of money.
The financial markets have signaled they are not happy with the US by selling the dollar over the past year. Theoretically this is good for exports because it makes our goods cheaper overseas and makes imports more expensive. However, because we import so heavily, a cheaper dollar also increases the risk of imported inflation. The last import price number indicates this is starting to happen. Because we are so dependent on foreign capital and goods, we need a strong dollar to encourage the foreign investment. As the dollar drops, foreigners will start to look elsewhere to invest.
Currently, foreigners account for roughly 40% of government debt purchasers. Japan currently owns over 700 billion in US gov't debt and China about 170 billion. In other words, their portfolios are already exposed to the US economy and the risks involved. It would be prudent for them to either start investing in another region (such as Europe) or demand a higher interest rate from the US to compensate them for their over-exposure to our economy. Either way, our interest rates will increase.
Finally, there is the low savings rate -- currently at Depression era levels. If the economy tanks, people so not have a nest egg to fall back on. Therefore, a drop in the economy will hit harder and faster than we would like.
Before I go on, let me sum up.
1.) We owe a ton of money.
2.) Our currency is falling
3.) Foreigners already own allot of US assets
4.) US consumers are not able to deal financially deal with an economic fall.
OK...here's where the economic fun begins.
Bush's plan would increase out debt level by 14-28%. More debt increases the risk of the US not paying back its obligations. Therefore, foreigner purchasers will demand a higher interest rate on their investment. This will increase the interest the government must pay to investors. This will in turn increase the debt load because we need more money to pay for our interest charges.
As we increase our debt level, the dollar will drop because investor confidence will fall. As a result, we will import more inflation because we are so dependent on foreign capital. As inflation increases, interest rates increase.
As interest rates increase, the economy slows. People who have no savin
I have been watching the economic summit -- in fact a love-in among conservatives -- with "shock and awe". The level of irresponsibility, disinformation and lying has risen to a new level with this administration. The sheer lack of any economic insight or ability is mindnumbing. Bush's plan is a recipe for disaster that will destroy the US and make us a third world debtor nation. Here is how.
Diaries :: bonddad's diary ::
First, let's look at the current relevant facts. The US currently has total debt outstanding of roughly 7 trillion dollars. We have a trade imbalance of 50 billion/month and a fiscal deficit of 400 billion. In other words, we owe a ton of money.
The financial markets have signaled they are not happy with the US by selling the dollar over the past year. Theoretically this is good for exports because it makes our goods cheaper overseas and makes imports more expensive. However, because we import so heavily, a cheaper dollar also increases the risk of imported inflation. The last import price number indicates this is starting to happen. Because we are so dependent on foreign capital and goods, we need a strong dollar to encourage the foreign investment. As the dollar drops, foreigners will start to look elsewhere to invest.
Currently, foreigners account for roughly 40% of government debt purchasers. Japan currently owns over 700 billion in US gov't debt and China about 170 billion. In other words, their portfolios are already exposed to the US economy and the risks involved. It would be prudent for them to either start investing in another region (such as Europe) or demand a higher interest rate from the US to compensate them for their over-exposure to our economy. Either way, our interest rates will increase.
Finally, there is the low savings rate -- currently at Depression era levels. If the economy tanks, people so not have a nest egg to fall back on. Therefore, a drop in the economy will hit harder and faster than we would like.
Before I go on, let me sum up.
1.) We owe a ton of money.
2.) Our currency is falling
3.) Foreigners already own allot of US assets
4.) US consumers are not able to deal financially deal with an economic fall.
OK...here's where the economic fun begins.
Bush's plan would increase out debt level by 14-28%. More debt increases the risk of the US not paying back its obligations. Therefore, foreigner purchasers will demand a higher interest rate on their investment. This will increase the interest the government must pay to investors. This will in turn increase the debt load because we need more money to pay for our interest charges.
As we increase our debt level, the dollar will drop because investor confidence will fall. As a result, we will import more inflation because we are so dependent on foreign capital. As inflation increases, interest rates increase.
As interest rates increase, the economy slows. People who have no savin
Vicki:
I'm never far away darling.
Vicki:
I'm never far away darling.
What would happen to the value of the investments if so many are trying to sell simultaneously?
Well, it'll just be a little "market correction" to offset the irrationally exuberant run-up in prices as everyone tries to buy in to the same blue-chip or high-yield investments when the private accounts start up. It'll all be Clinton's fault anyway.
What would happen to the value of the investments if so many are trying to sell simultaneously?
Well, it'll just be a little "market correction" to offset the irrationally exuberant run-up in prices as everyone tries to buy in to the same blue-chip or high-yield investments when the private accounts start up. It'll all be Clinton's fault anyway.
"super nuclear fuck abominable" is the name of my next album.
"super nuclear fuck abominable" is the name of my next album.
krsaz:
I'm having an It's Pat moment.
Are you a......
krsaz:
I'm having an It's Pat moment.
Are you a......
Might be a dumb question, but I'll ask, since we've got these fancy-pants economists lurking in here with their book-learnin'...
The Bush Administration claimed that the Iraq war might cost as much as fifty billion. Last I checked we're on the hook for two hundred billion.
The Bush Administration claimed that the prescription drug plan would cost 300 billion. Coupla weeks after it was unveiled, they "realized" it would cost 400 billion.
Wouldn't it be enough for our Dems to point out that these guys NEVER seem to get their figures right?
Might be a dumb question, but I'll ask, since we've got these fancy-pants economists lurking in here with their book-learnin'...
The Bush Administration claimed that the Iraq war might cost as much as fifty billion. Last I checked we're on the hook for two hundred billion.
The Bush Administration claimed that the prescription drug plan would cost 300 billion. Coupla weeks after it was unveiled, they "realized" it would cost 400 billion.
Wouldn't it be enough for our Dems to point out that these guys NEVER seem to get their figures right?
Atrios brings up what is the most crucial point in this whole thing: The media's swallowing the "crisis" hook, line, sinker, rod, and reel. Unless we can get some solid and widespread reporting on the facts, Social Security is doomed.
Atrios brings up what is the most crucial point in this whole thing: The media's swallowing the "crisis" hook, line, sinker, rod, and reel. Unless we can get some solid and widespread reporting on the facts, Social Security is doomed.
I'd eat my spleen on the corner of 7th and 42nd just to see Dr. Atrios on the dias at one of these "summits" turn to Martin Feldstein and say, "I can't decide whether your ideas are "abominable" or "super nuclear fuck abominable""
I'd eat my spleen on the corner of 7th and 42nd just to see Dr. Atrios on the dias at one of these "summits" turn to Martin Feldstein and say, "I can't decide whether your ideas are "abominable" or "super nuclear fuck abominable""
Of course the media whores won't bother to examine the "plan" in any detail.
That would require effort, reporting, even, I dare say, a variety of journalism.
Besides, they've already decided what side they're on in this issue. They're going to do all they can to help Nero destroy the Social Security system.
Of course the media whores won't bother to examine the "plan" in any detail.
That would require effort, reporting, even, I dare say, a variety of journalism.
Besides, they've already decided what side they're on in this issue. They're going to do all they can to help Nero destroy the Social Security system.
"dais" -- stupid fingers....
"dais" -- stupid fingers....
Unless we can get some solid and widespread reporting on the facts, Social Security is doomed.
start with your local PBS station, tell them they have a moral obligation to expose this attempted fraud. If enough people do this they will respond.
Unless we can get some solid and widespread reporting on the facts, Social Security is doomed.
start with your local PBS station, tell them they have a moral obligation to expose this attempted fraud. If enough people do this they will respond.
to see Dr. Atrios on the dias at one of these "summits" turn to Martin Feldstein and say, "I can't decide whether your ideas are "abominable" or "super nuclear fuck abominable""
Oh please oh please oh please!
Pleeeeeze! I'll take that as my "token of holiday esteem from your good friends at Bank of...."
to see Dr. Atrios on the dias at one of these "summits" turn to Martin Feldstein and say, "I can't decide whether your ideas are "abominable" or "super nuclear fuck abominable""
Oh please oh please oh please!
Pleeeeeze! I'll take that as my "token of holiday esteem from your good friends at Bank of...."
I loves me some spleen too.
I loves me some spleen too.
"super nuclear fuck abominable" is the name of my next album.
The first single, certainly.
We need an Eschatonian band. I'll play the piano. Where's Backslider ...
A.
"super nuclear fuck abominable" is the name of my next album.
The first single, certainly.
We need an Eschatonian band. I'll play the piano. Where's Backslider ...
A.
If Bush can get Wynter (wtf?) to pay back his 2 million, who should I hit up to pay back my 45k in student loans and 96k mortgage? Anyone whose mother would like to volunteer them?
If Bush can get Wynter (wtf?) to pay back his 2 million, who should I hit up to pay back my 45k in student loans and 96k mortgage? Anyone whose mother would like to volunteer them?
This may be naive, but does anybody
think there's a single Democrat who'll
vote for the Bush social security
proposal, whatever it is?
Wouldn't that be political suicide?
Or am I crazy?
This may be naive, but does anybody
think there's a single Democrat who'll
vote for the Bush social security
proposal, whatever it is?
Wouldn't that be political suicide?
Or am I crazy?
I'll sing, either back up or lead. I'm a team playah.
I'll sing, either back up or lead. I'm a team playah.
This may be naive, but does anybody
think there's a single Democrat who'll
vote for the Bush social security
proposal, whatever it is?
No. But then I tend to be on the optimistic side of life...
This may be naive, but does anybody
think there's a single Democrat who'll
vote for the Bush social security
proposal, whatever it is?
No. But then I tend to be on the optimistic side of life...
At least Chinese workers have barracks they can live in and some nice gruel to eat. American workers will be in cardboard boxes, under bridges, and in abandoned squats eating garbage from dumpsters. And at least Chinese workers don't have the Christian right breathing down their necks, trying to control their every move. Maoists are slackers compared to them when it comes to ultra control freakdom.
At least Chinese workers have barracks they can live in and some nice gruel to eat. American workers will be in cardboard boxes, under bridges, and in abandoned squats eating garbage from dumpsters. And at least Chinese workers don't have the Christian right breathing down their necks, trying to control their every move. Maoists are slackers compared to them when it comes to ultra control freakdom.
Bush must have been hung over in his Checkbook Balancing 101 class.
I like to keep things simple, and perhaps all this govmnt. funding is unimaginably complicated, but I always thought that
more money coming in than going out=good
more money going out than coming in=bad
revolving debt=Satan
Bush must have been hung over in his Checkbook Balancing 101 class.
I like to keep things simple, and perhaps all this govmnt. funding is unimaginably complicated, but I always thought that
more money coming in than going out=good
more money going out than coming in=bad
revolving debt=Satan
An interesting radio show on social security privatization was on my local public radio station last night. You can listen to it here:
http://www.onpointradio.org/
show...1216_a_main.asp
An interesting radio show on social security privatization was on my local public radio station last night. You can listen to it here:
http://www.onpointradio.org/
show...1216_a_main.asp
So what happens when all the baby boomers with all thier stocks start retiring on mass and have to sell the stocks to pay for food/rent etc. The selling glut will drop the market and makes things worse.
But it'll only really affect people who aren't millionaires and those people don't matter anyway. If they deserved to have a safe retirement they would have been born rich.
So what happens when all the baby boomers with all thier stocks start retiring on mass and have to sell the stocks to pay for food/rent etc. The selling glut will drop the market and makes things worse.
But it'll only really affect people who aren't millionaires and those people don't matter anyway. If they deserved to have a safe retirement they would have been born rich.
If Backslider's not around, I'm down
on bass guitar.
If Backslider's not around, I'm down
on bass guitar.
Steve,
You had asked krsaz about a "Pat" moment...
I'm dying to read the response...
I know the answer, but it's really krsaz's question to answer, not mine.
Steve,
You had asked krsaz about a "Pat" moment...
I'm dying to read the response...
I know the answer, but it's really krsaz's question to answer, not mine.
We can't rely on the media, or as Josh Marshall pointed out, our elected officials to block Social Security legislation.
The media won't and we don't have the numbers in Congress.
This is fucking war and the army we raised for the last election has to generate a grassroots effort to kill this.
Every blogger, every activist, every citizen, has to be relentless in our opposition to this.
We have to get the word out. We through our pacs, need to run TV and radio.
We need to join forcese with groups like AARP (who so far say they are opposed) and look for common ground to block this.
If we can't stop this, they we can't do anything, but no one is going to do it for us.
We can't rely on the media, or as Josh Marshall pointed out, our elected officials to block Social Security legislation.
The media won't and we don't have the numbers in Congress.
This is fucking war and the army we raised for the last election has to generate a grassroots effort to kill this.
Every blogger, every activist, every citizen, has to be relentless in our opposition to this.
We have to get the word out. We through our pacs, need to run TV and radio.
We need to join forcese with groups like AARP (who so far say they are opposed) and look for common ground to block this.
If we can't stop this, they we can't do anything, but no one is going to do it for us.
Athenae, Steve ~
Doesn't Atrios play sax? We need a good name!
Athenae, Steve ~
Doesn't Atrios play sax? We need a good name!
My guitar playing is not pretty, but it can be very noisy.
And I can honk on-key with most any kind of sax.
My guitar playing is not pretty, but it can be very noisy.
And I can honk on-key with most any kind of sax.
People who give their kids pretentious fucked-spelling names like "Wynter" best keep the fuck away from Social Security.
People who give their kids pretentious fucked-spelling names like "Wynter" best keep the fuck away from Social Security.
Vicki:
I've always wanted to be in a band
called
Lynyrd Byrnstyn.
Vicki:
I've always wanted to be in a band
called
Lynyrd Byrnstyn.
Are you a......
steve simels
A what? Mammal, Vegetarian?...
Are you a......
steve simels
A what? Mammal, Vegetarian?...
The enemy's greatest strength is that they are incomprehensible.
Do you hear any proponents of this mandatory Ponzi scheme, dare to admit that it`s not a constitutional function of the central government?
Does anyone speak to violating 10th Amendment rights, especially politicians who swear to support the Constitution? Hah!
It wouldn`t be anyone who supports mandatory Socialist Insecurity, but do you know of anyone who celebrated Bill of Rights Day, on Wednesday?
A great day to discuss Socialist Insecurity.
Do you hear of anyone addressing the fraud of this scam, that bilks FICA payers out of their contributions, if not living to collect any benefits, or having no eligible survivors?
We know politicians depend on Socialist Insecurity to keep their jobs, but it`s a national disgrace to defraud FICA payers out of their hard-earned pay.
Would the same politicians embrace private sector Ponzi schemes? I think not.
So many questions, so few answers.
Harry T.
Tucson, AZ
[via tpm]
.
The enemy's greatest strength is that they are incomprehensible.
Do you hear any proponents of this mandatory Ponzi scheme, dare to admit that it`s not a constitutional function of the central government?
Does anyone speak to violating 10th Amendment rights, especially politicians who swear to support the Constitution? Hah!
It wouldn`t be anyone who supports mandatory Socialist Insecurity, but do you know of anyone who celebrated Bill of Rights Day, on Wednesday?
A great day to discuss Socialist Insecurity.
Do you hear of anyone addressing the fraud of this scam, that bilks FICA payers out of their contributions, if not living to collect any benefits, or having no eligible survivors?
We know politicians depend on Socialist Insecurity to keep their jobs, but it`s a national disgrace to defraud FICA payers out of their hard-earned pay.
Would the same politicians embrace private sector Ponzi schemes? I think not.
So many questions, so few answers.
Harry T.
Tucson, AZ
[via tpm]
.
Us classical brass players always get left out of the good bands. Just let me know if you need "heavy metal" and I'll try to get the legos out of my trumpet.
Us classical brass players always get left out of the good bands. Just let me know if you need "heavy metal" and I'll try to get the legos out of my trumpet.
I have written my senators and congressman letting them know w's plan is bs, but in nicer words.
Hope everyone does the same.
Of course being reality based I know they don't give a fuck what I think as I did not also send money- and it isn't election time.
I have written my senators and congressman letting them know w's plan is bs, but in nicer words.
Hope everyone does the same.
Of course being reality based I know they don't give a fuck what I think as I did not also send money- and it isn't election time.
Us classical brass players always get left out of the good bands. Just let me know if you need "heavy metal" and I'll try to get the legos out of my trumpet.
left rev
I gotta tell you that you strike me as a real cool person. Amen!
Us classical brass players always get left out of the good bands. Just let me know if you need "heavy metal" and I'll try to get the legos out of my trumpet.
left rev
I gotta tell you that you strike me as a real cool person. Amen!
Steve:
41 year old male, single father raising two darling girls 6 and 11.
I have had a lesbian affair though.
Steve:
41 year old male, single father raising two darling girls 6 and 11.
I have had a lesbian affair though.
btw:
Article X
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Maybe it's different in 'Zona.
.
btw:
Article X
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Maybe it's different in 'Zona.
.
A what? Mammal, Vegetarian?...
krsaz | Email | Homepage | 12.17.04 - 2:28 pm | #
Uh, gee, Vicki sort of implied she
had a thing
for you in that sort of icky way...
not that there's anything wrong with
that, of course.
A what? Mammal, Vegetarian?...
krsaz | Email | Homepage | 12.17.04 - 2:28 pm | #
Uh, gee, Vicki sort of implied she
had a thing
for you in that sort of icky way...
not that there's anything wrong with
that, of course.
Got room for a drummer who plays too much?
.
Got room for a drummer who plays too much?
.
Vicki absolutely has a thing for me, we are mutual flirts.
Vicki absolutely has a thing for me, we are mutual flirts.
I have had a lesbian affair though.
krsaz | Email | Homepage | 12.17.04 - 2:33 pm | #
haven't we all......
I have had a lesbian affair though.
krsaz | Email | Homepage | 12.17.04 - 2:33 pm | #
haven't we all......
Vicki:
Aw shucks...thank you.
Vicki:
Aw shucks...thank you.
I'll play guitar - lead or rhythm.
I'll play guitar - lead or rhythm.
If these clowns are going to dismember Social Security then they damned well ought to ease up on their war against euthanasia. I don't know about you but I sure as hell am not going to be forced to stay in this world if I'm 80 years old, hungry and living in the streets. The life philosophy of these dickheads seems to go in all directions at once, doesn't it?
If these clowns are going to dismember Social Security then they damned well ought to ease up on their war against euthanasia. I don't know about you but I sure as hell am not going to be forced to stay in this world if I'm 80 years old, hungry and living in the streets. The life philosophy of these dickheads seems to go in all directions at once, doesn't it?
Vicki absolutely has a thing for me, we are mutual flirts.
krsaz
I plead no contest. Convict me now. Take me away in chains. Chain me to the communal bed, I don't care. This man has a good heart and a way with words that makes me shiver to the core of my being. Plus, he's a progressive liberal. What more could a girl like me want?
Vicki absolutely has a thing for me, we are mutual flirts.
krsaz
I plead no contest. Convict me now. Take me away in chains. Chain me to the communal bed, I don't care. This man has a good heart and a way with words that makes me shiver to the core of my being. Plus, he's a progressive liberal. What more could a girl like me want?
Thurber Hamm:
I plan on being a burden on my children.
Thurber Hamm:
I plan on being a burden on my children.
Fuck a bunch of ferners.
Its tough shit if we don't pay them back. What are they going to do about it? Besides, we can print all the dough we want.
Fuck a bunch of ferners.
Its tough shit if we don't pay them back. What are they going to do about it? Besides, we can print all the dough we want.
Why would any of these people think their long range planning, economic evaluation, financial acuity and political savvy were BETTER THAN THAT OF FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT AND FRANCES PERKINS????
Lord God Almighty these insects are just too effing overt for me any more.
Why would any of these people think their long range planning, economic evaluation, financial acuity and political savvy were BETTER THAN THAT OF FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT AND FRANCES PERKINS????
Lord God Almighty these insects are just too effing overt for me any more.
41 year old male, single father raising two darling girls 6 and 11.
Good on you, krsaz. More power to you.
I have had a lesbian affair though.
uh...ditto?
41 year old male, single father raising two darling girls 6 and 11.
Good on you, krsaz. More power to you.
I have had a lesbian affair though.
uh...ditto?
Vicki, wow, I am a quiver
Vicki, wow, I am a quiver
krsaz ~
You must have just turned 41? You were 40 a couple months ago...anyway, you're gift is awaiting you, and I think you'll be quite pleased, my dear. (Humming...)
krsaz ~
You must have just turned 41? You were 40 a couple months ago...anyway, you're gift is awaiting you, and I think you'll be quite pleased, my dear. (Humming...)
Vicki:
Virgo
Vicki:
Virgo
krsaz, me too. August 31st. No wonder I like you so well!
krsaz, me too. August 31st. No wonder I like you so well!
heh heh heh, vicki said "humming".
Where are the cats already?!
heh heh heh, vicki said "humming".
Where are the cats already?!
It's good not to forget the real objective of the conservatives which is to destroy the Social Security system completely. They want to take us back to the Victorian era when elderly couples were separated into two workhouses: one for women and one for men; while the very rich built palaces and bought art.
It's good not to forget the real objective of the conservatives which is to destroy the Social Security system completely. They want to take us back to the Victorian era when elderly couples were separated into two workhouses: one for women and one for men; while the very rich built palaces and bought art.
haven't we all......
Yes, but how many have had two at once?
Damn perverts. They made me do it.
.
haven't we all......
Yes, but how many have had two at once?
Damn perverts. They made me do it.
.
Better for old to kill themselves than be a burden, says Warnock
Sarah-Kate Templeton
BRITAIN'S leading medical ethics expert has suggested that the frail and elderly should consider suicide to stop them becoming a financial burden on their families and society.
Baroness Warnock spoke on the eve of a Commons debate on the Mental Capacity Bill, which critics claim will allow "euthanasia by the back door".
In an interview with The Sunday Times, she said: "I know I'm not really allowed to say it, but one of the things that would motivate me [to die] is I couldn't bear hanging on and being such a burden on people.
"In other contexts, sacrificing oneself for one's family would be considered good. I don't see what is so horrible about the motive of not wanting to be an increasing nuisance.
"If I went into a nursing home it would be a terrible waste of money that my family could use far better."
Warnock, 80, a Lords' cross-bencher who helped frame Britain's legalisation on embryo research, also suggests that parents of premature babies should be charged to keep them on life support machines if doctors write off their chances of leading a healthy life.
"Maybe it has come down to saying 'Okay, they can stay alive but the family will have to pay for it.' Otherwise it will be an awful drain on public resources," she said. Warnock sat on a Lords select committee which agreed on a ban on euthanasia in 1993, but last year she conceded that the law needed to be reviewed.
Warnock's views are of considerable significance as she sat on an influential Lords select committee that agreed on a complete ban on euthanasia in 1993. Last year, however, she and two other peers on the committee conceded that the law needed to be reviewed and backed a private member's bill permitting assisted suicide for the terminally ill.
Warnock has previously admitted that a GP enabled her own husband, Geoffrey, a former vice-chancellor of Oxford University, to die peacefully using morphine in 1995 after he was incapacitated by a lung condition.
She said that her volte face on euthanasia was also influenced by the case of Diane Pretty, who suffered from motor neurone disease and unsuccessfully fought a legal battle to allow her husband to help her take her life. "That really moved me to think we must change the law," said Warnock.
The bill gives legal backing to "living wills", enabling patients to refuse treatment in the event of their becoming incapacitated.
Claire Rayner, president of the Patients Association, has written a living will instructing doctors not to give her life-saving treatment if she is given only three months to live or suffers brain damage following a stroke. Her husband, Des, has written a similar document.
Rayner, 73, who supports the Mental Capacity Bill, has demanded in her will that a "Do not resuscitate" notice be placed above her hospital bed if she loses the ability to speak or write.
The for
Better for old to kill themselves than be a burden, says Warnock
Sarah-Kate Templeton
BRITAIN'S leading medical ethics expert has suggested that the frail and elderly should consider suicide to stop them becoming a financial burden on their families and society.
Baroness Warnock spoke on the eve of a Commons debate on the Mental Capacity Bill, which critics claim will allow "euthanasia by the back door".
In an interview with The Sunday Times, she said: "I know I'm not really allowed to say it, but one of the things that would motivate me [to die] is I couldn't bear hanging on and being such a burden on people.
"In other contexts, sacrificing oneself for one's family would be considered good. I don't see what is so horrible about the motive of not wanting to be an increasing nuisance.
"If I went into a nursing home it would be a terrible waste of money that my family could use far better."
Warnock, 80, a Lords' cross-bencher who helped frame Britain's legalisation on embryo research, also suggests that parents of premature babies should be charged to keep them on life support machines if doctors write off their chances of leading a healthy life.
"Maybe it has come down to saying 'Okay, they can stay alive but the family will have to pay for it.' Otherwise it will be an awful drain on public resources," she said. Warnock sat on a Lords select committee which agreed on a ban on euthanasia in 1993, but last year she conceded that the law needed to be reviewed.
Warnock's views are of considerable significance as she sat on an influential Lords select committee that agreed on a complete ban on euthanasia in 1993. Last year, however, she and two other peers on the committee conceded that the law needed to be reviewed and backed a private member's bill permitting assisted suicide for the terminally ill.
Warnock has previously admitted that a GP enabled her own husband, Geoffrey, a former vice-chancellor of Oxford University, to die peacefully using morphine in 1995 after he was incapacitated by a lung condition.
She said that her volte face on euthanasia was also influenced by the case of Diane Pretty, who suffered from motor neurone disease and unsuccessfully fought a legal battle to allow her husband to help her take her life. "That really moved me to think we must change the law," said Warnock.
The bill gives legal backing to "living wills", enabling patients to refuse treatment in the event of their becoming incapacitated.
Claire Rayner, president of the Patients Association, has written a living will instructing doctors not to give her life-saving treatment if she is given only three months to live or suffers brain damage following a stroke. Her husband, Des, has written a similar document.
Rayner, 73, who supports the Mental Capacity Bill, has demanded in her will that a "Do not resuscitate" notice be placed above her hospital bed if she loses the ability to speak or write.
The for
Sorry, I got cut off. Continued:
The former nurse and agony aunt said: "If I have brain damage because I have had a stroke, that would be absolutely awful. Not being able to express myself, to talk or write, would be just awful.
"If the doctors feel that my time has come and my life expectancy is no more than three months, I don't want them interfering. I don't want them taking any action if I have a cardiac arrest or if I have respiratory failure. I do not want to be resuscitated . . . it is my decision, not their decision.
Sorry, I got cut off. Continued:
The former nurse and agony aunt said: "If I have brain damage because I have had a stroke, that would be absolutely awful. Not being able to express myself, to talk or write, would be just awful.
"If the doctors feel that my time has come and my life expectancy is no more than three months, I don't want them interfering. I don't want them taking any action if I have a cardiac arrest or if I have respiratory failure. I do not want to be resuscitated . . . it is my decision, not their decision.
If these clowns are going to dismember Social Security then they damned well ought to ease up on their war against euthanasia. I don't know about you but I sure as hell am not going to be forced to stay in this world if I'm 80 years old, hungry and living in the streets. The life philosophy of these dickheads seems to go in all directions at once, doesn't it?
Thurber Hamm
I'm with you, Hamm. I want the option of ending it at a time of my choosing rather than face my old age in poverty.
And the rest of ya'll need to get a room!
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
If these clowns are going to dismember Social Security then they damned well ought to ease up on their war against euthanasia. I don't know about you but I sure as hell am not going to be forced to stay in this world if I'm 80 years old, hungry and living in the streets. The life philosophy of these dickheads seems to go in all directions at once, doesn't it?
Thurber Hamm
I'm with you, Hamm. I want the option of ending it at a time of my choosing rather than face my old age in poverty.
And the rest of ya'll need to get a room!
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Atrios,
You forgot to mention that SS is inflation-indexed, and most commercial annuities aren't.
Some insurers have experimented with them, but the premium you pay (lower income) is steep enough to make them not worth it.
Atrios,
You forgot to mention that SS is inflation-indexed, and most commercial annuities aren't.
Some insurers have experimented with them, but the premium you pay (lower income) is steep enough to make them not worth it.
Grand Moff Texan - Um, I can almost guarantee you that good old Harry upthread is in truth a retiree from Canton, now in Tucson and discovering to his horror that all around him are brown people, rather than the people he thought there would be. -Small- brown people. Small brown people who are not immigrants and not working for him and appear to not value his words of wisdom.
As we used to say, a few years ago, "Welcome to Arizona. Now go home."
Grand Moff Texan - Um, I can almost guarantee you that good old Harry upthread is in truth a retiree from Canton, now in Tucson and discovering to his horror that all around him are brown people, rather than the people he thought there would be. -Small- brown people. Small brown people who are not immigrants and not working for him and appear to not value his words of wisdom.
As we used to say, a few years ago, "Welcome to Arizona. Now go home."
"super nuclear fuck abominable"
I'm on this train.
"super nuclear fuck abominable"
I'm on this train.
Sent Public Radio an email telling them of my disappointment on their use of the term CRISIS in describing our SS situation. Will be writing my elected reps & national Democrats. Suggest everyone do the same. If we put the fear of God in them, we win.
Sent Public Radio an email telling them of my disappointment on their use of the term CRISIS in describing our SS situation. Will be writing my elected reps & national Democrats. Suggest everyone do the same. If we put the fear of God in them, we win.
Atrios brings up what is the most crucial point in this whole thing: The media's swallowing the "crisis" hook, line, sinker, rod, and reel. Unless we can get some solid and widespread reporting on the facts, Social Security is doomed.
Derelict
I could hardly believe my ears, but a couple of days ago on NPR the news person actually said in so many words that that most mainstream economists dispute the administration's contention that the SS system is in crisis.
Atrios brings up what is the most crucial point in this whole thing: The media's swallowing the "crisis" hook, line, sinker, rod, and reel. Unless we can get some solid and widespread reporting on the facts, Social Security is doomed.
Derelict
I could hardly believe my ears, but a couple of days ago on NPR the news person actually said in so many words that that most mainstream economists dispute the administration's contention that the SS system is in crisis.
Carter, thanks for writing. Every little bit helps.
Carter, thanks for writing. Every little bit helps.
GWPDA - If Bush does to the economy what he's done to Iraq you could make a bundle selling squatter's plots along the Rio Salado - cardboard boxes extra.
GWPDA - If Bush does to the economy what he's done to Iraq you could make a bundle selling squatter's plots along the Rio Salado - cardboard boxes extra.
"If we put the fear of God in them, we win."
Carter
Haven't you heard, God doesn't like socialist programs like Social Security, God is a neo-conservative who wants us to kill brown people.
"If we put the fear of God in them, we win."
Carter
Haven't you heard, God doesn't like socialist programs like Social Security, God is a neo-conservative who wants us to kill brown people.
Unless we can get some solid and widespread reporting on the facts, Social Security is doomed./i>
Social security is doomed.
Its fate was sealed when the Dumbocraps refused to make it a major issue in the recently concluded electile dysfunction campaign. Everybody in the whole fucking world knew destruction of social security was the centerpiece of Il Douche's second term domestic agenda.
But because the GOPukes avoided the issue, and because the Dumbocraps stand to gain as much from the destruction of the plan through privatization, via increased Corporate patronage, they refused to make it an issue.
Plus, of course, since in the Corporate State the corporate Media are STATE media, and because they are tied to the huge financial institutions through the interlocking boards of directors (a scandal of unimagineable poroprtions which abso-fucking-lutely NOBODY wants to touch) of the media corporations and the financial corporations, the SCUM will inevitably announce the agenda of their owners.
We are so fucked...
By the time the sheeple realize it (if they ever do) there will be no recourse at all...and there is precious little now...
Unless we can get some solid and widespread reporting on the facts, Social Security is doomed./i>
Social security is doomed.
Its fate was sealed when the Dumbocraps refused to make it a major issue in the recently concluded electile dysfunction campaign. Everybody in the whole fucking world knew destruction of social security was the centerpiece of Il Douche's second term domestic agenda.
But because the GOPukes avoided the issue, and because the Dumbocraps stand to gain as much from the destruction of the plan through privatization, via increased Corporate patronage, they refused to make it an issue.
Plus, of course, since in the Corporate State the corporate Media are STATE media, and because they are tied to the huge financial institutions through the interlocking boards of directors (a scandal of unimagineable poroprtions which abso-fucking-lutely NOBODY wants to touch) of the media corporations and the financial corporations, the SCUM will inevitably announce the agenda of their owners.
We are so fucked...
By the time the sheeple realize it (if they ever do) there will be no recourse at all...and there is precious little now...
GWPDA, we say that in the south too. Yankees go home!
I've only driven through Arizona on my way somewhere else, but my father's from Oak Creek Canyon, which I think is near Sedona. Is that near you?
GWPDA, we say that in the south too. Yankees go home!
I've only driven through Arizona on my way somewhere else, but my father's from Oak Creek Canyon, which I think is near Sedona. Is that near you?
I'll go boom-boom wit de funky bass if Backslider's busy. (super nuclear funky?)
I'll go boom-boom wit de funky bass if Backslider's busy. (super nuclear funky?)
Konopelli:
You want to know what is amazing to me, three months ago I thought you were crazy, now I notice that I agree with almost all your posts. Either I have become so incredibly jaded, or I'm as crazy as you.
Konopelli:
You want to know what is amazing to me, three months ago I thought you were crazy, now I notice that I agree with almost all your posts. Either I have become so incredibly jaded, or I'm as crazy as you.
Has everyone in this country completely forgotten that Social Security is a SUPPLEMENT, not a complete retirement plan. At least, that's what they called it back when I first recieved my SS card, way back in the 70s.
Social Security is indeed not nearly enough to retire on -- we all know that. Isn't that why we have programs like all the varities of IRAs and Keoghs and 401(k)s/503(b)(c)s and whatnot? All of those allow some form of investing in the stock market. Isn't that enough?
Am I asking stupid questions? Or something?
Has everyone in this country completely forgotten that Social Security is a SUPPLEMENT, not a complete retirement plan. At least, that's what they called it back when I first recieved my SS card, way back in the 70s.
Social Security is indeed not nearly enough to retire on -- we all know that. Isn't that why we have programs like all the varities of IRAs and Keoghs and 401(k)s/503(b)(c)s and whatnot? All of those allow some form of investing in the stock market. Isn't that enough?
Am I asking stupid questions? Or something?
I was over at southknoxbubba this morning. He was discussing this same issue. In the comments someone asked this question:
"I have a question.... it may be dumb, and I may have just missed it in all of this, BUT...
With your Social Security deduction (if ye be employed by someone other than yerself) your employer pays a matching amount into your "account", thus achieving the 14-or-15% (whatever it is), right?
With this so called social security revolution, what happens to the matching amount? Will that be a thing of the past?
Just askin'...
SBL "
Ihonestly don't know. But I thought it was an interesting question.
I want to joint the band. I once played the flutophone (sp?) when I was in grammar school. I wasn't very good. But I can draw. Maybe I could do the DVD/CD covers? Or, if all else fails, I'll be a groupie.
I was over at southknoxbubba this morning. He was discussing this same issue. In the comments someone asked this question:
"I have a question.... it may be dumb, and I may have just missed it in all of this, BUT...
With your Social Security deduction (if ye be employed by someone other than yerself) your employer pays a matching amount into your "account", thus achieving the 14-or-15% (whatever it is), right?
With this so called social security revolution, what happens to the matching amount? Will that be a thing of the past?
Just askin'...
SBL "
Ihonestly don't know. But I thought it was an interesting question.
I want to joint the band. I once played the flutophone (sp?) when I was in grammar school. I wasn't very good. But I can draw. Maybe I could do the DVD/CD covers? Or, if all else fails, I'll be a groupie.
while any mandatory private savings plan is, to me, an abominably bad idea
Let us not lose sight of the fact that such glistening phrases as "privitization" and "savings plan" are used to obscure the real goal -- shutting the program down forever, and stealing the money.
That's our money, by the way, that we paid into the system based on the promise of getting it back when we retired.
while any mandatory private savings plan is, to me, an abominably bad idea
Let us not lose sight of the fact that such glistening phrases as "privitization" and "savings plan" are used to obscure the real goal -- shutting the program down forever, and stealing the money.
That's our money, by the way, that we paid into the system based on the promise of getting it back when we retired.
Konopelli:
You want to know what is amazing to me, three months ago I thought you were crazy, now I notice that I agree with almost all your posts. Either I have become so incredibly jaded, or I'm as crazy as you.
krsaz
I agree with this. Not only have I come to appreciate Konopelli's superior intellect and vivid commentary, I've also come to realize that what you say, Konopelli, rings true to my core belief system. I really enjoy reading your posts.
Konopelli:
You want to know what is amazing to me, three months ago I thought you were crazy, now I notice that I agree with almost all your posts. Either I have become so incredibly jaded, or I'm as crazy as you.
krsaz
I agree with this. Not only have I come to appreciate Konopelli's superior intellect and vivid commentary, I've also come to realize that what you say, Konopelli, rings true to my core belief system. I really enjoy reading your posts.
QuinnLaBelle
It IS a supplement and shouldn't be soley relied on for retirement and was set up so that the elderly, that had worked all of their lives, could have a chance at some kind of dignified life.
QuinnLaBelle
It IS a supplement and shouldn't be soley relied on for retirement and was set up so that the elderly, that had worked all of their lives, could have a chance at some kind of dignified life.
Konopelli,
krsaz and vicki want pinon coffee.
Konopelli,
krsaz and vicki want pinon coffee.
Send in the cats. Where are the cats?
Send in the cats. Where are the cats?
A woman whose husband died in the 9/11 attacks is suing the Bush Administration for what she alleges was foreknowledge of what was going to happen and doing nothing to stop it.
Is it possible that if the Social Security is destroyed by the aministration, citizens who lose everything they have paid in for 30 or 40 years could sue the government for damages? How would that be different than the IRS not returning tax refunds?
A woman whose husband died in the 9/11 attacks is suing the Bush Administration for what she alleges was foreknowledge of what was going to happen and doing nothing to stop it.
Is it possible that if the Social Security is destroyed by the aministration, citizens who lose everything they have paid in for 30 or 40 years could sue the government for damages? How would that be different than the IRS not returning tax refunds?
Konopelli,
krsaz and vicki want pinon coffee.
watertiger
Yes, to drink in our communal bed while we do cooperative crossword puzzle (krsaz will help me with the big words and the fuzzy nuances).
Konopelli,
krsaz and vicki want pinon coffee.
watertiger
Yes, to drink in our communal bed while we do cooperative crossword puzzle (krsaz will help me with the big words and the fuzzy nuances).
can we start a constant chorus of "why are they lying about social security?" along with "why are they lying about iraq?"
and next week another "why are they lying about......?" i'm sure we'll have a topic.
let's stick the right with the very phrase "why are the lying?". then its a short hop to lying=republican.
can we start a constant chorus of "why are they lying about social security?" along with "why are they lying about iraq?"
and next week another "why are they lying about......?" i'm sure we'll have a topic.
let's stick the right with the very phrase "why are the lying?". then its a short hop to lying=republican.
I was gonna help with the fuzzy words and the big nuances...
I was gonna help with the fuzzy words and the big nuances...
The only crisis we face with Social Security is that the republicans are trying to take it away from us. Period.
The only crisis we face with Social Security is that the republicans are trying to take it away from us. Period.
-joins Konopelli lovefest-
while your posts occasionally piss me off, they usually get me pised off at the right people, places and things at which to be pissed. your over-the-top commentary is thought provoking and a sure magnet to the black helicopters. Fortunately, you probably know how to take down those black helicopters.
Plus you live in one of the most beautiful places in the world and your nick is my favorite Native American mythical figure.
No coffee is necessary
-joins Konopelli lovefest-
while your posts occasionally piss me off, they usually get me pised off at the right people, places and things at which to be pissed. your over-the-top commentary is thought provoking and a sure magnet to the black helicopters. Fortunately, you probably know how to take down those black helicopters.
Plus you live in one of the most beautiful places in the world and your nick is my favorite Native American mythical figure.
No coffee is necessary
krsaz - Thus you have implicitly come to recognise the logic behind my position that for the sake of sanity, NM and AZ must shake hands, agree that the business about 1912 was just a mistake and become one, once more. Not only does this immediately provide us with more entertaining politics not dominated by East Valley crazoids, but as well, local suppliers of pinon coffee, pinon and blue corn. The other part is that it then leaves -one star vacant- on the US flag, which means Puerto Rico can, for its sins, achieve statehood.
krsaz - Thus you have implicitly come to recognise the logic behind my position that for the sake of sanity, NM and AZ must shake hands, agree that the business about 1912 was just a mistake and become one, once more. Not only does this immediately provide us with more entertaining politics not dominated by East Valley crazoids, but as well, local suppliers of pinon coffee, pinon and blue corn. The other part is that it then leaves -one star vacant- on the US flag, which means Puerto Rico can, for its sins, achieve statehood.
Vicki:
Nice to see this thread get back to important stuff, like you and me.
Vicki:
Nice to see this thread get back to important stuff, like you and me.
"With this so called social security revolution, what happens to the matching amount? Will that be a thing of the past?"
You bet.
"With this so called social security revolution, what happens to the matching amount? Will that be a thing of the past?"
You bet.
Wow-blogger just let me see a Bill O'Rielly thread up top...
Shoot, I have to go home.
S'long everyone. Have a nice weekend.
Wow-blogger just let me see a Bill O'Rielly thread up top...
Shoot, I have to go home.
S'long everyone. Have a nice weekend.
Sember Fubar nails it. The only "threat" is letting Caesar Arbusto within a mile of it.
Sember Fubar nails it. The only "threat" is letting Caesar Arbusto within a mile of it.
I was gonna help with the fuzzy words and the big nuances...
krsaz
mmmmm....big, fuzzy nuances...
Nice to see this thread get back to important stuff, like you and me.
Oh Fuck! LOL!
I was gonna help with the fuzzy words and the big nuances...
krsaz
mmmmm....big, fuzzy nuances...
Nice to see this thread get back to important stuff, like you and me.
Oh Fuck! LOL!
More of this, please...
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3403854/
"Answer Desk: What Social Security crisis?"
More of this, please...
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3403854/
"Answer Desk: What Social Security crisis?"
Pine Lake Larry - That particular slogan (without the modifier) was part of yet another in the endless parade of PR efforts to 'sell Arizona'. I see most recently it has involved people wearing bathrobes and handing out sunscreen in the middle of Manhattan - which baffles me. Personally, I have advocated instead that we set up a toll-free number and allow everyone who thinks they want to visit between October and April to just call a friendly worker who will mail them mementoes of the Biltmore golf course, restaurant bills, and towels from local hotels, and take their credit card numbers in exchange. Then, everybody is happy.
I'm in Phoenix. -Old- Phoenix. Oak Creek was a nice place before it was bought by people from places that had water. I can't afford to visit there any more.
Pine Lake Larry - That particular slogan (without the modifier) was part of yet another in the endless parade of PR efforts to 'sell Arizona'. I see most recently it has involved people wearing bathrobes and handing out sunscreen in the middle of Manhattan - which baffles me. Personally, I have advocated instead that we set up a toll-free number and allow everyone who thinks they want to visit between October and April to just call a friendly worker who will mail them mementoes of the Biltmore golf course, restaurant bills, and towels from local hotels, and take their credit card numbers in exchange. Then, everybody is happy.
I'm in Phoenix. -Old- Phoenix. Oak Creek was a nice place before it was bought by people from places that had water. I can't afford to visit there any more.
Well, since this thread appears off topic, GWPDA, I wondered, since you know of Arizona history, if it's true that there was an actual Civil War battle fought in Arizona. I think I remember reading it somewhere but it seems a long way from the actual battles.
Well, since this thread appears off topic, GWPDA, I wondered, since you know of Arizona history, if it's true that there was an actual Civil War battle fought in Arizona. I think I remember reading it somewhere but it seems a long way from the actual battles.
whoop-de-doooo
just got a letter from ss admin. i'm getting a raise from 627/mo to 644/mo!!!
love the high life.
whoop-de-doooo
just got a letter from ss admin. i'm getting a raise from 627/mo to 644/mo!!!
love the high life.
Stop thinking small,these wingnuts do their dirtywork in big,big fashion.Once bush gets the old folks marching in the street he can whip out the 50 cal. machine guns and fill them with lead.No more SS crisis.No more Grandma.
Stop thinking small,these wingnuts do their dirtywork in big,big fashion.Once bush gets the old folks marching in the street he can whip out the 50 cal. machine guns and fill them with lead.No more SS crisis.No more Grandma.
Pine Lake Larry, that would be the battle of Picacho Peak.
Arizona Territory, unlike Mother New Mexico, was actually of the Southern persuasion. New Mexico not only fought off a contingent of Texans (and buried their bodies under the bandstand in the middle of Old Town), but as well had several other Civil War actions north toward Santa Fe. Arizona only had the one of any significance, at Picacho Peak, about halfway between Phoenix and Tucson. "The most significant Civil War battle in Arizona took place near Picacho Peak on April 15, 1862, when an advance detachment of Union forces from California attacked a Confederate scouting party. The battle lasted for 1-1/2 hours, and three Union soldiers were killed." Not much to it, but now we grow a whole bunch of very good paper shell pecans there. And the word picacho, in Spanish means, um, 'peak'. Oh well. I never claimed Arizona was terribly imaginative about such things.
Pine Lake Larry, that would be the battle of Picacho Peak.
Arizona Territory, unlike Mother New Mexico, was actually of the Southern persuasion. New Mexico not only fought off a contingent of Texans (and buried their bodies under the bandstand in the middle of Old Town), but as well had several other Civil War actions north toward Santa Fe. Arizona only had the one of any significance, at Picacho Peak, about halfway between Phoenix and Tucson. "The most significant Civil War battle in Arizona took place near Picacho Peak on April 15, 1862, when an advance detachment of Union forces from California attacked a Confederate scouting party. The battle lasted for 1-1/2 hours, and three Union soldiers were killed." Not much to it, but now we grow a whole bunch of very good paper shell pecans there. And the word picacho, in Spanish means, um, 'peak'. Oh well. I never claimed Arizona was terribly imaginative about such things.
Stop thinking small,these wingnuts do their dirtywork in big,big fashion.Once bush gets the old folks marching in the street he can whip out the 50 cal. machine guns and fill them with lead.No more SS crisis.No more Grandma.
notch
ouch
Stop thinking small,these wingnuts do their dirtywork in big,big fashion.Once bush gets the old folks marching in the street he can whip out the 50 cal. machine guns and fill them with lead.No more SS crisis.No more Grandma.
notch
ouch
Here's a link to Durbin's SS page on his web site. At the bottom of the page is a link to a 9-22-2003 senate sdebate about privatization where Durbin, Corzine, Santorum, and Sununu go at it. I've only read a few pages but it shows you the argument that's going to go on.
http://durbin.senate.gov/
sitepag...ocisecurity.htm
Here's a link to Durbin's SS page on his web site. At the bottom of the page is a link to a 9-22-2003 senate sdebate about privatization where Durbin, Corzine, Santorum, and Sununu go at it. I've only read a few pages but it shows you the argument that's going to go on.
http://durbin.senate.gov/
sitepag...ocisecurity.htm
QuinnLaBelle
It IS a supplement and shouldn't be soley relied on for retirement and was set up so that the elderly, that had worked all of their lives, could have a chance at some kind of dignified life.
jimmiraybob
Thank you, Jimmiraybob.
For a while there I thought I'd entered an alternate universe, or something.
oh.
wait.
QuinnLaBelle
It IS a supplement and shouldn't be soley relied on for retirement and was set up so that the elderly, that had worked all of their lives, could have a chance at some kind of dignified life.
jimmiraybob
Thank you, Jimmiraybob.
For a while there I thought I'd entered an alternate universe, or something.
oh.
wait.
Bush going to freeze domestic spending in next budget.
cnn.com/insidepolitics
Bush going to freeze domestic spending in next budget.
cnn.com/insidepolitics
Bush going to freeze domestic spending in next budget.
Like he has any choice...
Bush going to freeze domestic spending in next budget.
Like he has any choice...
It'll all be Clinton's fault anyway.
Hadda Gedholdya | Email | Homepage | 12.17.04 - 1:57 pm | #
it is going to be a monumental fuck -up, & somehow, it will be Clinton's fault.
It'll all be Clinton's fault anyway.
Hadda Gedholdya | Email | Homepage | 12.17.04 - 1:57 pm | #
it is going to be a monumental fuck -up, & somehow, it will be Clinton's fault.
Jimmyraybob is one of the mofos who deserves to be eating cat food in his old age.
Jimmyraybob is one of the mofos who deserves to be eating cat food in his old age.
But because the GOPukes avoided the issue, and because the Dumbocraps stand to gain as much from the destruction of the plan through privatization, via increased Corporate patronage, they refused to make it an issue.
Konopelli goes off again on the wrong people. Actually, corporations generally won't benefit by Bush's scheme, just financial institutions. The economy as a whole will suffer after an initial jolt. I sincerely doubt that Democrats are being sufficiently paid off to be able to bear the wrath of their core constituency. Could you people start focussing your energy to fight against the enemy? Thanks.
But because the GOPukes avoided the issue, and because the Dumbocraps stand to gain as much from the destruction of the plan through privatization, via increased Corporate patronage, they refused to make it an issue.
Konopelli goes off again on the wrong people. Actually, corporations generally won't benefit by Bush's scheme, just financial institutions. The economy as a whole will suffer after an initial jolt. I sincerely doubt that Democrats are being sufficiently paid off to be able to bear the wrath of their core constituency. Could you people start focussing your energy to fight against the enemy? Thanks.
"Bush going to freeze domestic spending in next budget."
Perhaps we should all move to Iraq. That's where the money's going.
I'm not sure if we're any safer here.
"Bush going to freeze domestic spending in next budget."
Perhaps we should all move to Iraq. That's where the money's going.
I'm not sure if we're any safer here.
"Actually, corporations generally won't benefit by Bush's scheme, just financial institutions. "
Au contraire. Corporations will benefit by avoiding contribution against their will, in precisely the same way that they are now benefitting by avoiding contributions or support for any kind of medical or health insurance, both whilst workers are at work and subsequently during retirement. One is a positive benefit the other a negative, but both have the same result.
"Actually, corporations generally won't benefit by Bush's scheme, just financial institutions. "
Au contraire. Corporations will benefit by avoiding contribution against their will, in precisely the same way that they are now benefitting by avoiding contributions or support for any kind of medical or health insurance, both whilst workers are at work and subsequently during retirement. One is a positive benefit the other a negative, but both have the same result.
Is it just me, or is the woman with FIRED written across her face in the American Rights at Work ad in the left column Lady Bird Johnson?
Is it just me, or is the woman with FIRED written across her face in the American Rights at Work ad in the left column Lady Bird Johnson?
GWPDA -- thanks for the info on Oak Creek. I didn't realize it had become upscale. My mother told me a tale about the last time she saw her father-in-law was as he was riding off into the desert on a donkey. He was a miner. I just assumed Oak Creek was a really rural, desert area with no development. Of course that would have probably been in the 40s. I'm not sure what they mined in Arizona. Was it silver?
GWPDA -- thanks for the info on Oak Creek. I didn't realize it had become upscale. My mother told me a tale about the last time she saw her father-in-law was as he was riding off into the desert on a donkey. He was a miner. I just assumed Oak Creek was a really rural, desert area with no development. Of course that would have probably been in the 40s. I'm not sure what they mined in Arizona. Was it silver?
Wouldn't that be political suicide?
Or am I crazy?
It's a trick question. The two choices aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
Wouldn't that be political suicide?
Or am I crazy?
It's a trick question. The two choices aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
Pine Lake Larry - Until recently, Arizona mined all the copper there was. Then there's stuff like the Lost Dutchman mine (gold), quite a lot of silver, semi-precious stones - turquoise, peridot, garnet. We've got a lot of mining around here. Think Phelps-Dodge. The 4-Cs of Arizona; Copper, Cotton, Citrus, Cattle. Now - telemarketing and tourists.
Oak Creek Canyon is up north, next to Sedona. It has oaks. It is a creek. It's in a canyon. Lovely. Slide Rock was a lot of fun. I'm a little concerned about the desert reference, since the desert is about 100 miles south, but still. Maybe toward Apache Junction.
Pine Lake Larry - Until recently, Arizona mined all the copper there was. Then there's stuff like the Lost Dutchman mine (gold), quite a lot of silver, semi-precious stones - turquoise, peridot, garnet. We've got a lot of mining around here. Think Phelps-Dodge. The 4-Cs of Arizona; Copper, Cotton, Citrus, Cattle. Now - telemarketing and tourists.
Oak Creek Canyon is up north, next to Sedona. It has oaks. It is a creek. It's in a canyon. Lovely. Slide Rock was a lot of fun. I'm a little concerned about the desert reference, since the desert is about 100 miles south, but still. Maybe toward Apache Junction.
Oak Creek Canyon is up north, next to Sedona. It has oaks. It is a creek. It's in a canyon.
Asshole 
I'm not stupid, just had too much Corona right now. I said earlier I wasn't familiar with Arizona, so my reference to my grandpa riding off in the desert was off.
Oak Creek Canyon is up north, next to Sedona. It has oaks. It is a creek. It's in a canyon.
Asshole I'm not stupid, just had too much Corona right now. I said earlier I wasn't familiar with Arizona, so my reference to my grandpa riding off in the desert was off.
"Asshole I'm not stupid, just had too much Corona right now."
Well, what can I say? It's up north. It has oaks. It's in a canyon. There's a creek. People don't as a rule realise that Arizona isn't all desert - or what kind of desert. The Sonoran Desert in the center and toward the south has more wildlife types and vegetation than oh, any place I ever was in Kansas. But Oak Creek isn't even high desert - it's pine forest stuff. It's nice.
"Asshole I'm not stupid, just had too much Corona right now."
Well, what can I say? It's up north. It has oaks. It's in a canyon. There's a creek. People don't as a rule realise that Arizona isn't all desert - or what kind of desert. The Sonoran Desert in the center and toward the south has more wildlife types and vegetation than oh, any place I ever was in Kansas. But Oak Creek isn't even high desert - it's pine forest stuff. It's nice.
Don't know what they'll propose in this version, but the first-term plan stipulated that any profits above a standard return would revert back to the government. Paul O'Neill talked about it in "The Price of Loyalty."
Don't know what they'll propose in this version, but the first-term plan stipulated that any profits above a standard return would revert back to the government. Paul O'Neill talked about it in "The Price of Loyalty."
No, the real question should be if Bush privatizes Soc Sec and a 42-year old Sandy has an accident, becomes permanently disabled and can no longer work.
Under the old system, Sandy would be eligible for SSI for the rest of her life. So will Sandy's new privatized, "ownership society" account cover her needs for the next 20-40 years? Not fucking likely.
And will Sandy have any money to leave to her kids? Well, probably not, since she'd likely be living out of a stolen shopping cart under a bridge.
No, the real question should be if Bush privatizes Soc Sec and a 42-year old Sandy has an accident, becomes permanently disabled and can no longer work.
Under the old system, Sandy would be eligible for SSI for the rest of her life. So will Sandy's new privatized, "ownership society" account cover her needs for the next 20-40 years? Not fucking likely.
And will Sandy have any money to leave to her kids? Well, probably not, since she'd likely be living out of a stolen shopping cart under a bridge.
I didn't there was WMD in the Social Security system. Damn.
I didn't there was WMD in the Social Security system. Damn.
Three Story Boards
(This stuff wakes me up at night.)
George Bush's Social Security fix isn't social, isn't secure and is a fix in only one sense of the word. (Manager telling boxer to take a dive.)
It's fun to watch feeding time at the zoo unless it's your dead fish being given away. (Interleaf seals feeding with stock traders.)
George Bush's unwillingness to even consider removing the cap on social security payroll taxes is worse than regressive. (Perot lookalike with charts showing the vanishingly small percentage that rich people pay toward Social Security.)
I would really like to see the GOP explore the "flat tax" concept on Social Security pay roll taxes first. How far would that alone go to solve this "crisis"?
Three Story Boards
(This stuff wakes me up at night.)
George Bush's Social Security fix isn't social, isn't secure and is a fix in only one sense of the word. (Manager telling boxer to take a dive.)
It's fun to watch feeding time at the zoo unless it's your dead fish being given away. (Interleaf seals feeding with stock traders.)
George Bush's unwillingness to even consider removing the cap on social security payroll taxes is worse than regressive. (Perot lookalike with charts showing the vanishingly small percentage that rich people pay toward Social Security.)
I would really like to see the GOP explore the "flat tax" concept on Social Security pay roll taxes first. How far would that alone go to solve this "crisis"?
If the whole thing is voluntary, why not have it in addition to rather than instead of the current plan?
If the whole thing is voluntary, why not have it in addition to rather than instead of the current plan?
words to the wise in case SS "reform" passes:
stick your money in a low-fee index fund or bonds.
save your stock market speculation for your 401k or IRA.
a LOT of people are going to get rooked and then guess what? They'll demand government assistance and we'll be right back where we started... oh except we'll be $2 trillion more in the hole.
Frank Zappa was an optimist.
words to the wise in case SS "reform" passes:
stick your money in a low-fee index fund or bonds.
save your stock market speculation for your 401k or IRA.
a LOT of people are going to get rooked and then guess what? They'll demand government assistance and we'll be right back where we started... oh except we'll be $2 trillion more in the hole.
Frank Zappa was an optimist.
steal from old age pensioners to pay for the war in Iraq. And Wynter's mom gets to save up money and pass it on to Wynter just like she can today, that is if she is wealthy enough not to consume her savings. Only now she is going to get to pass it on tax free. So the rich can get richer.
steal from old age pensioners to pay for the war in Iraq. And Wynter's mom gets to save up money and pass it on to Wynter just like she can today, that is if she is wealthy enough not to consume her savings. Only now she is going to get to pass it on tax free. So the rich can get richer.
This whole privatization scheme is a ploy to put Social Security money in the pockets of Bush's friends who run the banking system of this country. After all, the real money to be made here is from administering all those private accounts.
If you have ever had trouble with a credit card company for any reason, this is going to be 1000x worse.
Besides, if you want an investment savings account, thenn open one- leave my SS out of it.
This whole privatization scheme is a ploy to put Social Security money in the pockets of Bush's friends who run the banking system of this country. After all, the real money to be made here is from administering all those private accounts.
If you have ever had trouble with a credit card company for any reason, this is going to be 1000x worse.
Besides, if you want an investment savings account, thenn open one- leave my SS out of it.
Hey, look at the tax "reform" lies of 2001, 2002 ... total garbage; and why not compare the tax results with the SS predictions and probable results. Not just in blogs, but maybe the big media guys could do it. Nah!
Hey, look at the tax "reform" lies of 2001, 2002 ... total garbage; and why not compare the tax results with the SS predictions and probable results. Not just in blogs, but maybe the big media guys could do it. Nah!
Look people,
Social Security is unsustainable over the long term. *some* kind of reform needs to be made. The salient fact to keep in mind is that the longer we wait, the more painful it will become to reform it. Making a small adjustment now such as: raising the payroll tax and lowering benefits would be painful now, but nothing like what we'd have to do 20 years from now.
It's been known at least since the 80s, on both sides, that SS in its current form is unsustainable. I'm glad that someone, even Bush, is mustering up the stones to try some reform of the system. Even if it's privatization, (and full privatization is unlikely), it might help us get out of debt. The other thing is no matter how you talk about reforming it, it basically means increasing the load on the current generation. When SS was founded, there were 20 working people for every person drawing benefits. Now it's something like 4 people for every person drawing benefits, and in the future, it will be like .7 people working for every person drawing benefits.
allowing more immigration can help, as can a rising birthrate, but the overall trend is still inevitable -- something has to give.
Look people,
Social Security is unsustainable over the long term. *some* kind of reform needs to be made. The salient fact to keep in mind is that the longer we wait, the more painful it will become to reform it. Making a small adjustment now such as: raising the payroll tax and lowering benefits would be painful now, but nothing like what we'd have to do 20 years from now.
It's been known at least since the 80s, on both sides, that SS in its current form is unsustainable. I'm glad that someone, even Bush, is mustering up the stones to try some reform of the system. Even if it's privatization, (and full privatization is unlikely), it might help us get out of debt. The other thing is no matter how you talk about reforming it, it basically means increasing the load on the current generation. When SS was founded, there were 20 working people for every person drawing benefits. Now it's something like 4 people for every person drawing benefits, and in the future, it will be like .7 people working for every person drawing benefits.
allowing more immigration can help, as can a rising birthrate, but the overall trend is still inevitable -- something has to give.
When have those stenographers ever gotten beyond the fucking press releases on anything?
When have those stenographers ever gotten beyond the fucking press releases on anything?
No Amaxen, you are wrong!! And no "kudos" to our President, as his rationale for privitization is far from benign.
Basically, SSI is a government system that has worked well since 1935, continues to perform well, and can continue to work well, long into the future, with modest (the operative word here) reforms, not privitization!
Instead, as Krugman recently wrote in his op ed, BushCo "wants to buy into failure, emulating systems that, when tried elsewhere, have neither saved money nor protected the elderly from poverty."
Emperor Bush is like the Pied Piper, leading the working-class off the cliff, under the watchful eye of the media, which will carefully catalog and dramatize the event, but do little or nothing to prevent it.
No Amaxen, you are wrong!! And no "kudos" to our President, as his rationale for privitization is far from benign.
Basically, SSI is a government system that has worked well since 1935, continues to perform well, and can continue to work well, long into the future, with modest (the operative word here) reforms, not privitization!
Instead, as Krugman recently wrote in his op ed, BushCo "wants to buy into failure, emulating systems that, when tried elsewhere, have neither saved money nor protected the elderly from poverty."
Emperor Bush is like the Pied Piper, leading the working-class off the cliff, under the watchful eye of the media, which will carefully catalog and dramatize the event, but do little or nothing to prevent it.
Amaxen arm yourself with numbers. The "covered worker" ratio you site is bunk but it really doesn't matter, those demographic numbers are already built into the models reported in the Trustees Reports. If we beat the econmic numbers in the Low Cost Alternative of the 2004 Report Social Security is fully funded. And those numbers are currently being thrashed.
It is simply not true that "something has to give". What was a crisis in 1982 and a problem in 1996 has simply vanished. The US economy outgrew the Boomer Gap. The rhetoric of the Op/Ed pages never changed, even while the date of exhaustion moved from 2023 to 2042 (with no one ever seeming to comment on the fact that it was moving). But this doesn't alter the fact that it is in fact continuing to move forwards at more than a year per year.
The 2042 date is drawn from an economic and demographic model that no one would accept if confronted directly. 2.7% growth in 2004? 2.1% growth in 2005? 1.6% growth longterm? Leaving aside the fact that reality has left that 2.7% number in the dust, who exactly would have accepted those numbers when they were released last March?
Yet these are the numbers privatizers are implicity using to sell the idea that there is a crisis. Wake up, they are lying to you. Again.
Economic Assumptions under the Three Alternatives
Trust Fund Ratios under the Three Alternatives
For a little primer on the significance of "The Three Alternatives" you can start at my place The Three Alternatives
Amaxen arm yourself with numbers. The "covered worker" ratio you site is bunk but it really doesn't matter, those demographic numbers are already built into the models reported in the Trustees Reports. If we beat the econmic numbers in the Low Cost Alternative of the 2004 Report Social Security is fully funded. And those numbers are currently being thrashed.
It is simply not true that "something has to give". What was a crisis in 1982 and a problem in 1996 has simply vanished. The US economy outgrew the Boomer Gap. The rhetoric of the Op/Ed pages never changed, even while the date of exhaustion moved from 2023 to 2042 (with no one ever seeming to comment on the fact that it was moving). But this doesn't alter the fact that it is in fact continuing to move forwards at more than a year per year.
The 2042 date is drawn from an economic and demographic model that no one would accept if confronted directly. 2.7% growth in 2004? 2.1% growth in 2005? 1.6% growth longterm? Leaving aside the fact that reality has left that 2.7% number in the dust, who exactly would have accepted those numbers when they were released last March?
Yet these are the numbers privatizers are implicity using to sell the idea that there is a crisis. Wake up, they are lying to you. Again.
Economic Assumptions under the Three Alternatives
Trust Fund Ratios under the Three Alternatives
For a little primer on the significance of "The Three Alternatives" you can start at my place The Three Alternatives
"Jimmyraybob is one of the mofos who deserves to be eating cat food in his old age."
Gary Frazier 12.17.04 - 4:33 pm
Well, maybe and then again maybe not. Why would you think so? Something I said? I'm a "SS is not in crisis and barely a problem" kinda guy. And as a gesture of good will I give you this qoute from the CBO report - The Outlook for Social Security, June 2004 (available online):
"CBO projects that the trust funds will become exhausted in 2052, after which spending authority will be limited to annual revenues—which are projected at that point to equal only about 80 percent of scheduled benefits."
This is more optomistic than the SS trustees report. I think that this somewhat dovetails with what Bruce Webb says. The "crisis" is a lie.
Speaking of Bruce, I bookmarked your web site - are you setting up a SS info "clearinghouse" and if so will you be adding commentary and/or links on the CBO report that I mentioned? How about comments?
"Jimmyraybob is one of the mofos who deserves to be eating cat food in his old age."
Gary Frazier 12.17.04 - 4:33 pm
Well, maybe and then again maybe not. Why would you think so? Something I said? I'm a "SS is not in crisis and barely a problem" kinda guy. And as a gesture of good will I give you this qoute from the CBO report - The Outlook for Social Security, June 2004 (available online):
"CBO projects that the trust funds will become exhausted in 2052, after which spending authority will be limited to annual revenues—which are projected at that point to equal only about 80 percent of scheduled benefits."
This is more optomistic than the SS trustees report. I think that this somewhat dovetails with what Bruce Webb says. The "crisis" is a lie.
Speaking of Bruce, I bookmarked your web site - are you setting up a SS info "clearinghouse" and if so will you be adding commentary and/or links on the CBO report that I mentioned? How about comments?
I am really tired of reading "proof" that
1. The Social Security system is NOT in crisis,
2. The privatization scheme proposed by the Bushies will further bankrupt the country
3. Privatization will fail miserably.
All beside the point. Bush and the Repubs will pass this scheme, and it will become law. Question is, how, when the sane people are back in power, we can undo the damage? Or at least make those who destroyed the system accountable for what they have done, so that they never get the chance again.
I am really tired of reading "proof" that
1. The Social Security system is NOT in crisis,
2. The privatization scheme proposed by the Bushies will further bankrupt the country
3. Privatization will fail miserably.
All beside the point. Bush and the Repubs will pass this scheme, and it will become law. Question is, how, when the sane people are back in power, we can undo the damage? Or at least make those who destroyed the system accountable for what they have done, so that they never get the chance again.
Gloria Borger Kneepads for the Republicans on Social Security.
Gloria Borger Kneepads for the Republicans on Social Security.
Do not use the word privatize. Ever.
This isn't "privatizing" social security, it is at best "outsourcing" of social security.
Do not use the word privatize. Ever.
This isn't "privatizing" social security, it is at best "outsourcing" of social security.
If we were thinking like Republicans, we'd already have a direct mail program going to senior citizens about the plan to abolish Social Security.
If we were thinking like Republicans, we'd already have a direct mail program going to senior citizens about the plan to abolish Social Security.
Yes, America, just buy into the secret plan to (pick one): end the war in Vietnam/withdraw troops from Iraq/'save' Social Security/protect the environment/end poverty in our lifetimes/cure cancer.
And when you're done with that, there's a bridge for sale I'm dying to show you.
Bush is such a treat, he tells America (in print, AP, a couple days ago, during the 'economic summit' dog-and-pony show): it's your money, but we won't let you invest it 'frivolously' or you know, buy lottery tickets with it.
This alone should be a warning that once you endorse this asshole's little scam, you will be 'guided' into certain stocks and away from certain others, or there will be a list of 'approved' investment counselors, or even an entire program staffed by the major brokerages, dedicated to helping you 'decide' where to put 'your' money.
Like the adjudication of Medicare claims by private health insurance carriers, who either approve your claim for Medicare coverage or have to pay the bills themselves.
This, friends, is why the Medicare program is going broke. And guess what's next for the Social Security program?
Yes, America, just buy into the secret plan to (pick one): end the war in Vietnam/withdraw troops from Iraq/'save' Social Security/protect the environment/end poverty in our lifetimes/cure cancer.
And when you're done with that, there's a bridge for sale I'm dying to show you.
Bush is such a treat, he tells America (in print, AP, a couple days ago, during the 'economic summit' dog-and-pony show): it's your money, but we won't let you invest it 'frivolously' or you know, buy lottery tickets with it.
This alone should be a warning that once you endorse this asshole's little scam, you will be 'guided' into certain stocks and away from certain others, or there will be a list of 'approved' investment counselors, or even an entire program staffed by the major brokerages, dedicated to helping you 'decide' where to put 'your' money.
Like the adjudication of Medicare claims by private health insurance carriers, who either approve your claim for Medicare coverage or have to pay the bills themselves.
This, friends, is why the Medicare program is going broke. And guess what's next for the Social Security program?
jimmiraybob,
"clearinghouse" is a little strong. What this debate has largely been lacking is numbers. And whatever you think of my discussions of same, direct links to 62 years of Social Security Trustees Reports have never been simpler. You want numbers, I got numbers: Social Security is not Broke: by the numbers The rhetoric on this has been frozen in place even while the numbers have been moving under our feet. USA Today misstated the projected exhaustion date in an editorial last week by a full decade (2032 vs 2042) and near as I can tell didn't draw a blink. We are proposing a multi-trillion dollar "solution" to a "problem" to which most people couldn't place a single number in context.
I have been meaning to track down that CBO study, but I am naturally lazy and need a little kick in the ass. Which you gave and for which I am sincerely grateful. Off to CBO land. (links to come)
jimmiraybob,
"clearinghouse" is a little strong. What this debate has largely been lacking is numbers. And whatever you think of my discussions of same, direct links to 62 years of Social Security Trustees Reports have never been simpler. You want numbers, I got numbers: Social Security is not Broke: by the numbers The rhetoric on this has been frozen in place even while the numbers have been moving under our feet. USA Today misstated the projected exhaustion date in an editorial last week by a full decade (2032 vs 2042) and near as I can tell didn't draw a blink. We are proposing a multi-trillion dollar "solution" to a "problem" to which most people couldn't place a single number in context.
I have been meaning to track down that CBO study, but I am naturally lazy and need a little kick in the ass. Which you gave and for which I am sincerely grateful. Off to CBO land. (links to come)
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