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I'MMA LET YOU FINISH

Hi Atrios!
Hecate | 12.18.04 - 8:14 pm | #

This story fails the credibility test on so many levels. Digby has a pretty good post today about the right's need to create liberal bogeymen.
Paul | 12.18.04 - 8:18 pm | #

Our enemies never stop seeking for ways to harm America, and neither do conservative hacks.
Hecate | 12.18.04 - 8:18 pm | #

No, they won't. What's amazing is that they will repeat this until the stars cool.
doesn't matter | 12.18.04 - 8:18 pm | #

Great! Let's make sure to write the law to deal with different people in different ways! Everything changed, erhhhmmm, sometime. Didn't it? What was it?

~~Hi Hecate!~~
GWPDA | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 8:21 pm | #

The fall of religion in Canada has corresponded to a change in public policy. Canadians have legalized gay marriage and any kind of abortion, and the age of consent for sex is 14. Can you imagine American adults being allowed to fool around with children that age? I can't.
The Canadian model is what progressive Americans are shooting for, so religion must be dealt with. Since Christmas is the most demonstrative display of organized religion, a strategy of minimizing the birth of Jesus makes sense.

This is a quote from O'Reilly. I could care less about this topic. You're letting a hate-monger like O'Reilly accuse an entire country of pedophilia? He has no understanding of the age of consent laws in Canada (one being, when it concerns minors, 2 years difference is an issue and that people in positions of authority are considered more culpable). Are you fucking people crazy? Don't you have any standards or morals? It would be like a spokesperson going on our national media (public or coporate) saying that all Americans like to fuck kids who are 14.

You know what, America? Fuck you. Fuck you all to hell.
Billy Bob | 12.18.04 - 8:25 pm | #

That's too fucking funny.

But the question remains, who started the smear in the first place? The soldier who got his ass kicked? Freepers? Who?
def | 12.18.04 - 8:26 pm | #

If you follow the story, doesn't it turn out that Barton (the soldier who was beaten up) was lying?

"Barton and his family said he was beat up because he was wearing an Iraqi freedom T-shirt." --nbc4i.com

Contrast that explanation of what happened with what the assailant admitted in court:

"Cornwell told the judge Friday that the fight started after the two exchanged insults about the other's military unit." nbc4i.com

So, isn't the whole peace-activist-attacks-soldier bit actually Barton's fault because he apparently didn't own up to what the fight was about from the start?
Matt | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 8:27 pm | #

He told the judge that the fight outside the Toby Keith concert "started after the two exchanged insults about the other's military unit

Just think what these idiots could make out of a good ol' fashioned Army-Navy tavern-emptying brawl. Prolly call for Martial law, and the arrest and ezecution of all registered Democrats. What a bunch of maroons.
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.18.04 - 8:29 pm | #

We underestimate them if swe assume that their goal is to be factually correct. It isn't.
Hecate | 12.18.04 - 8:29 pm | #

I wonder if the conservative blogosphere ever tires of being wrong about everything...

They live on it. It is their fuel, their sustenance. Just like when Reagan would cite these apocryphal tales of welfare queens driving Cadillacs. Who cares if it's true or not? It makes a good story and helps the Righteous Wing rationalize their behavior...
renato | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 8:31 pm | #

You know what, America? Fuck you. Fuck you all to hell.
Billy Bob

Well, thank you ever so freaking much there, BB! Hands across the Border, eh, hoser? Great! Put down the chainsaw, first, though...
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.18.04 - 8:33 pm | #

ezecution? Aw fuck, who cares...
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.18.04 - 8:34 pm | #

Billy Bob - I would presume that this is that man's attempt to either start or perpetuate a personal jihad against the Senior Dominion - probably because Fox "News" has not been granted license to broadcast within the country. Of course, were I not deeply Canadian, I would also point out that he's out of his mind and peculiarly nasty, but as a Canadian that would be wrong of me. Very wrong.
GWPDA | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 8:35 pm | #

We underestimate them if swe assume that their goal is to be factually correct.

So true on many levels.

One of the latest is the Cuba embassy bullshit. FR/etc write the story that Cuba is trying to have our "Christian wreath" taken down. No mention of the wreaths reference to "political prisoners" in Cuba.

Another is the story of a teacher banning the "Constitution in the classroom". Of course it leaves out that it was some literature published by some winger group with other shit in the publication.
chris/tx | 12.18.04 - 8:35 pm | #

I wonder if the conservative blogosphere ever tires of being wrong about everything...

No.

After all, why should the facts get in the way of a good narrative? Just like the SCLM.
George Johnston | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 8:35 pm | #

Oh Lord a fist fight at a concert?! That's UNHEARD of! It must be those damn liberals!

Reaching is an understatement. Besides who the hell would admit to seeing a Keith concert? Go see HANK III (the third) or Bare Jr. or Drive-by Truckers and get an education in real country.

.
dieselcreek | 12.18.04 - 8:35 pm | #

The link says:

State Representative Jon Peterson
"has drafted legislation designed to
punish more severely those who
assault military personnel than those
who attack civilians."

Reminds me that Robert Heinlein, when he wasn't proposing marriages with multiple partners, bisexuality, and ritual canibalism also imagined a society in which military service was a prerequisite to being allowed to vote. Perhaps that's the proposition of his most likely to come about. It certainly seems that we're headed that way.
Tomm | 12.18.04 - 8:37 pm | #

One of the commenters had a teachable moment. Quote from the article:

"I can only shake my head and ask again what someone so opposed to the war in Iraq was doing at a Toby Keith concert," said BitsBlog."

Yes, BitsBlog! What, indeed?
superdude | 12.18.04 - 8:40 pm | #

Slightly OT -

I nominate filkertom & Lime Rickey (& any other contributers) to write Hacks! The Musical.

(sorry... saw the title of the post, couldn't resist...)
Charlotte Smith (nee Beavers) | 12.18.04 - 8:40 pm | #

I climb onto Attaturk's boat with:
Qaddafi Discovers the Curse of the Bush Photo-Op
George Johnston | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 8:41 pm | #

This type of manipulation happened during the Viet Nam war too. Those urban myths are still alive today.
The only real abuse soldiers suffer comes directly from the government. Just wait and see. Agent Orange. Gulf War Syndrome...
Door Stop | 12.18.04 - 8:41 pm | #

Billy Bob -- clever, my friend, but you've made one fatal error.

You're assuming the national mood and tone is indeed set by a pig-headed, lying, sexually deviant bully.

I'm not letting O'Reilly do anything. He is an irresponsible jackass who believes he is above reproach, and writing to him for correction, retraction, or mea culpa of any kind is likely to be met with his annoying horsey laugh. But, if you've got a problem with it, by all means tell your government to whack our government and O'Reilly's employers around with it. Get him in the paycheck. Get him in the publicity.

Just don't blame all of us. Some of us are trying like hell to get that whack-job demoted to Slurpee machine operator.
filkertom | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 8:43 pm | #

well, too bad Barton didn't know tai chi. He could have deflected and watch Cornwall sail right past him.

But everyone's up for a fight. Must be something in the stars. I'm starting to think maybe take a step back. If the fundies don't have force meeting theirs, they'll get sick of the whole scene, ten commandments on robes, plaster homilies in the yard, flags, magnets on the truck.

I'm certainly sick of it, have Mozart on tonight, nice treat. They'll never get it right, will just get sick of it and run off to get DRUNK or have a F*K, watch a DIRTY MOVIE or god forbid, SKIP CHURCH.
el | 12.18.04 - 8:45 pm | #

I wonder if the conservative blogosphere ever tires of being wrong about everything...

No you don't, Atrios, not really. You know they never tire of this kind of crap. If they did, they'd have dropped from exhaustion long ago.

We're sick of it, sure. But those who perpetrate it and those who eat it up just seem to thrive on it.
Emily | 12.18.04 - 8:45 pm | #

Well, thank you ever so freaking much there, BB! Hands across the Border, eh, hoser? Great! Put down the chainsaw, first, though...

First of all, hoser is part of the Bob and Doug MacKenzie laff riot that ended many years ago when SCTV went off the air. No one up here uses that term anymore. In fact, very few Canadians ever did, but, unfortunately, I come from the area where the term hoser was actually used. You'd be mortified to find out that it comes from the same root as "hose-bag", which is derived from "douche-bag", which is an insult I was using 35 years ago.

I'm angry. Bill O'Reilly accuses all Canadians of fucking 14-year olds on your national airwaves, and you people think this is OK.

Good on you. Hands across the fucking border.
Billy Bob | 12.18.04 - 8:46 pm | #

Heinlein, when he wasn't proposing marriages with multiple partners, bisexuality, and ritual canibalism also

Not that those are bad things...
Hecate | 12.18.04 - 8:46 pm | #

OT: I have a fucking burr up my ass today - I turned on CNN international last night on DirecTV (small dish) and they have pulled it. It is friggin gone.

I can't watch any of the other news services for straight news as it does not exist. I frantically searched through the other offerings, nothing there unless I want to learn Japanese.
chris/tx | 12.18.04 - 8:46 pm | #

"He hit me in the back of the head. I fell and hit the ground. I was knocked unconscious and he continued to punch and kick me on the ground."

Too bad it wasn't Toby Keith.
Central Scrutinizer | 12.18.04 - 8:47 pm | #

Good on you. Hands across the fucking border.
Billy Bob

you know, that's really interesting.

You slam all Americans because some of us like Bill O'Reilly. (in case you haven't noticed, he's not real popular 'round these parts)

Then you get a bug up your bum because someone seems to think everyone in Canada says, 'hoser'.

Hmmm...
renato | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 8:50 pm | #

Billy Bob - what part of the province would that be then? And where did you ever get the idea that O'Reilly was endorsed by anyone posting on Eschaton?

And why would you bother to include a phony e-mail address in your identifier?
GWPDA | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 8:57 pm | #

O'Reilly talking about Canadians and sex is funny on so many different levels it's almost stating the obvious to point it out.
SWR | 12.18.04 - 9:00 pm | #

I wonder if the conservative blogosphere ever tires of being wrong about everything

I assume yer kidding. Anywhere but in Religion, when it comes to the "Truth or B.S." question, if you can't prove it, it's B.S. In the Fundie Right, all you have to do is say it, and it's true. And the old line "if ya don't believe me, just ask me" wouldn't raise a smile. I sometimes wonder if, deep down, they know the Bible really isn't the Word-O-God™, and figure, well, if they made up shit and everyone believes it, why can't I? So they do, and voylah! everyone they know instantly believes it! Man, that's gotta be a rush...like snortin' Jesus' dandruff, or something.
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.18.04 - 9:00 pm | #

Too bad it wasn't Toby Keith.

I'm hip, my brother, I'm hip.
Billy B | 12.18.04 - 9:02 pm | #

I am going tomorrow to have myself cryogenically frozen, in hopes that if/when I wake up 100 years from now the utter stupidity so pervasive in today's civilization will have run its course.

If it hasn't, leave me in the freezer for another hundert.
grr | 12.18.04 - 9:05 pm | #

I'm not letting O'Reilly do anything. He is an irresponsible jackass who believes he is above reproach, and writing to him for correction, retraction, or mea culpa of any kind is likely to be met with his annoying horsey laugh.

But that doesn't stop him, does it? No. All it does is make you feel that you're not personally responsible. I'm so happy that you're so easily able to dismiss the consequences of people who claim to represent your country. If you guys didn't wave the Stars 'n Stripes in our faces so much, I'd almost thing you're...*gasp*...post national.
Billy Bob | 12.18.04 - 9:06 pm | #

Shorter Billy Bob;
Riiiiinnnnnnnnggg....rinnnnngdingdingding riiiing dingdingding RRRRIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGG...riiiing...riiing... htchkpclonk! Dang it!
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.18.04 - 9:07 pm | #

In a way this makes we question our method of attack in the info wars. In the run up to the election it was different. Now I'm wondering if the liberal blogosphere (as if it ever acted unanimously) shouldn't tone down it's ABB theme.

Our side still needs its noise makers to be sure, but I think there is a vacume in the rehelm of policy and how it is articulated to the general public. Kurgman is doing a good job. But as Socrates illustrated in his analogy of the Cave and Billy Wilder observed: "If you're going to tell people the truth, make them laugh, or they'll kill you."
John Gillnitz | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 9:08 pm | #

Somewhat OT, but this really looks to be the most important thing going on in the political world right not, and the blogosphere appears to be bored with recounts and ignoring it. To wit: what the h*ll's going on with the recount in Washington? The governor's race appears to depend on whether a full recount happens in King County. And the latest ruling by the courts says "aw, it's too late to consider those [valid] ballots".

At what point do Democrats get tired of getting screwed over every time by the legal process here?
Rick | 12.18.04 - 9:08 pm | #

chris/tx: well, in response to your post above I asked Mr. TJ to check cnn international (we have digital cable) while he and my son are watching the Falcons-Panthers game, and it's been pulled from our lineup as well. It was the only decent news we still got. As soon as football season ends, the cable is gone. Those total fuckers.
TJ | 12.18.04 - 9:10 pm | #

Jayzus, fuckin' troll. Quote part of me, don't quote the part that addresses your continued complaint. My family's from Canada, but not your part. Eh?

Charlotte -- you're in trouble now.
filkertom | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 9:10 pm | #

I'm so happy that you're so easily able to dismiss the consequences of people who claim to represent your country.

But O'Reilly works for Rupert Murdoch, who isn't even an American.

I can't pull the plug on Fox News any more than you can stop Avril Lavigne from coming through my radio.
SWR | 12.18.04 - 9:10 pm | #

I see they're still peddling the "spitting at Vietnam vets" myth too. There's a good book by Jerry Lembke called "The Spitting Image" about how that false image was popularized once the war was lost and its supporters needed to scapegoat anti-war activists. The only documented case of spitting Lembke found was GOP convention delegates in '72 spitting at Vietnam Vets Agaisnt the War protestors.
Draco | 12.18.04 - 9:13 pm | #

Hmmm, you mean to say that people come out of a Toby Keith concert riled up and ready to fight? Was that the traditional purpose of music? Was that the purpose of a Toby Keith concert?
Hecate | 12.18.04 - 9:13 pm | #

Was that the purpose of a Toby Keith concert?

If you see Toby Keith on the road, kill him.

(Sorry Hecate, I couldn't help myself.)
Central Scrutinizer | 12.18.04 - 9:16 pm | #

Then you get a bug up your bum because someone seems to think everyone in Canada says, 'hoser'.

Didn't I post earlier that I'm angry? Angry! Livid! Spitting mad!...and I've got something up my bum!

Actually, I don't. I'm as rootless as you are, Renato, since Yoshida nixed the comments on his "blogger".

I'm sorry if I offended any nice Americans. I'm pissed off, I'm concerned, and I speak for a lot of Canadians (...there are only 124 of us and they all called me tonight.)
Billy Bob | 12.18.04 - 9:16 pm | #

Billy Bob, slap a defamation lawsuit on his ass. He could sure use another one. What do you want us to do? I don't watch the dude. But what he does is legal. Yes, he is mad that Fox can't get a liscense - if I were you I would do all I could to make sure that never happens. I don't buy from Fox sponsors. About the most we can do is laugh when Al Franken gets the best of him.
Nancy | 12.18.04 - 9:19 pm | #

speaking of undecided elections, the San Diego mayor's race is still undecided. Donna Frye supporters must decide whether to file suit to compel the registrar's office to count several thousand write-in votes where the voters wrote in Frye's name but did not fill in the bubble.

It's interesting to note that hundreds, or more, ballots where voters checked the names of Murphy or Roberts (the other two candidates), had the bubble filled in by registrar workers. So, those ballots were altered so that the votes were counted.

Are we a banana republic yet?
renato | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 9:24 pm | #

argh. forgot to close the tag.
renato | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 9:24 pm | #

CNNi's still on our digital cable, thankfully. (I just checked.) It's the only news channel on the TiVo favorites list, which makes it easier to avoid the domestic-market shit.

Are you sure that you weren't looking for CNNfn, which rebroadcasts CNNi stuff on evenings and weekends? CNNfn stopped broadcasting on Thursday...

But call DirectTV and complain. After all, they're supposed to be so responsive. (But doesn't Murdoch own them now?)

On that note:

But O'Reilly works for Rupert Murdoch, who isn't even an American.

Oh, but he is. He naturalized on a fast-track, to allow him to buy FOX.
pseudonymous in nc | 12.18.04 - 9:24 pm | #

when did Yoshida nix the comments? I got bored with him and haven't been there in a while.
renato | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 9:25 pm | #

"ritual canibalism"

Versus secular cannibalism.
EkCenTriK | 12.18.04 - 9:25 pm | #

wow he DID nix them. I bet he saw a huge fall off in traffic. What's the fun of going there if you can't snark off in comments???
renato | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 9:25 pm | #

If you see Toby Keith on the road, kill him.

Oh, I will. But he's not the buddah. He's just roadkill.
Hecate | 12.18.04 - 9:27 pm | #

Also anyone seen this? Saw it on Slashdot.org

"A California court has approved a $2.6 million settlement between Diebold and the State of California and Alameda County. The state and county had sued Diebold for fraudulent claims about the security of its electronic voting machines."
EkCenTriK | 12.18.04 - 9:32 pm | #

This is only a start -- I'm imagining this to be the first half of a Big Opening Number. I'll see if I can nail that this evening, but I'm tired.

------------------

(Curtain rises on a bare stage. A rough cityscape background. Eight or nine dancers standing in various places on stage, heads bowed. A spotlight hits a man, downstage center-right.)

REPORTER #1
Five hundred thousand people depend on me...
To tell them what happened
Overnight, get it right,
Help them get on with their day.

I get my name, there on the story,
I get the fame, and I get the glory, 'cause
Five hundred thousand people depend on me....

(His spot fades, as another hines on a woman, stage left.)

REPORTER #2
Five hundred thousand people depend on me...
To tell them something they
Need to know, even though
The facts might get in the way.

I get the gist, comic or tragic,
Flick of the wrist, boom! and it's magic, 'cause
Five hundred thousand people depend on me....

(At the last note, her spot fades, as two more come up at center stage.)

REPORTERS #3 & 4
Five hundred thousand people depend on me....

(At the last note, the remaining people on stage all get their own spots in a freeze.)

ALL
Five hundred thousand people depend on me.

(They begin a swaying, slow-circle-walking dance.)

When you're the source of information, you can get bogged down,
You've got to pay attention to what sells,
We've got to serve the world, the nation, every state and town,
And if we don't tell them what they want to hear, they'll go somewhere else....

REPORTER #5 (stops center stage)
Five hundred thousand people expect me
To say out loud what's in their hearts,
People around the country respect me
See this Honorary Bachelor of Arts?

I got it from my Alma Mater,
For my journalistic integrity,
I got somebody in hot water,
They ended up on the police blotter,
Shacking up with someone's daughter,
Who looked a lot like Harry Potter...
And that's when my career got hotter,
And now instead of news they're getting me!

(She freezes; two reporters, hunched over, move downstage center)

REPORTERS #6 & 7
(sounding sincere)
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa...
(then waving it off derisively)
What in the hell does that mean?
No one yet's been able to pull the
Wool over our eyes, not that we've seen.

ALL
Every day, a thousand stories scream for our attention,
Is it our fault loud and gory gets the bigger mention?
Nuance ain't our strongest suit, we go for gruesome, sexy, cute --

REPORTER #2 (spoken)
Today City Councilman Dick Wiener was beaten to death by his mistress in their secret love nest with a bag of the

most adorable kittens!

ALL
We're what the people start and end on,
We're the blank page the world is penned on,
Five hundred thousand people depend on me....

(fade)
filkertom | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 9:34 pm | #

He's just roadkill.

From a Buddhist perspective, it's all the same.
Central Scrutinizer | 12.18.04 - 9:34 pm | #

Billy Bob, I'm no more fond of Mr. O'Reilly than anyone else here. But there's no need to lash out. These are nice, reasonable people. You'd be better off channelling that anger into letters to the CRTC or a newspaper or Mr. O'Reilly. Personally I was disappointed when Fox News was allowed to broadcast up here in Canada, but now I just remind myself that it's not going to make a huge difference. O'Reilly will self-destruct sooner or later.
Charlotte Smith (nee Beavers) | 12.18.04 - 9:36 pm | #

oh, and filkertom - can't wait!

Jazz hands!
Charlotte Smith (nee Beavers) | 12.18.04 - 9:37 pm | #

Central Scrutinizer

By the way thanks CS, I have been running both your tale and mine through my head all day. I am considering therapy Monday.
EkCenTriK | 12.18.04 - 9:37 pm | #

the cable is gone. Those total fuckers.
TJ

I've never had cable. The few times I've ever watched CNN, or Fox, I'm amazed at how they parrot whatever bullshit that the administration feeds them. Just a bunch of war pornographers, they don't deserve your hard earned money.
Another Bruce | 12.18.04 - 9:37 pm | #

Oh, I see you've already posted the first part!! Bravo!!!

sorry... still laughing! Thanks!
Charlotte Smith (nee Beavers) | 12.18.04 - 9:38 pm | #

EkCenTriK,

Been thinking about all that for a while today... It's been therapy for me already. You wouldn't believe the dreams I had last night.
Central Scrutinizer | 12.18.04 - 9:40 pm | #

I,>I can only shake my head and ask again what someone so opposed to the war in Iraq was doing at a Toby Keith concert," said BitsBlog.

Gee, maybe they liked some of Mr. Keith's non-political songs. He's done a few. I'm no fan of the guy, but sometimes--brace yourself, folks--people care more about the music than the politics. I know...how is that possible? But it happens.

And the only reason I know about Mr. Keith's music is because I have the misfortune of working someplace where country music gets played on a regular basis and I can't always have my iPod cranking. So a few of these country songs have slipped in. Gotta admit I do like the song Girls Lie Too. That's some funny shit.
LJ | 12.18.04 - 9:41 pm | #

Dangit. What's with that weirdo italics thing? I put it in right, and it came up like that?
LJ | 12.18.04 - 9:42 pm | #

filkertom - I smell Tony!
mag | 12.18.04 - 9:43 pm | #

Jeepers H. Christmas! The layer upon layer of every wingnut steriotype was in full glory in that article. I've read some sickening things lately, but that one takes honors.
bigvic | 12.18.04 - 9:43 pm | #

You know what, America? Fuck you. Fuck you all to hell.
Billy Bob

Can I, like, move in with you? I'm planning a break out.
Incognito | 12.18.04 - 9:44 pm | #

Okay, we're talking about Toby Keith here. Not Green Day. Not Bad Religion. Toby Keith. In all likelihood it was just a couple of loudmoth drunken rednecks looking looing to engage in a little ritualized sexually repressed ass kicking.
firedoglake | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 9:45 pm | #

I've never had cable. Another Bruce.

Until my kids were about 7 and 8, we had no cable and didn't even have the TV/ VCR hooked up to an antenna. We used to trot off happily to the local public library to check out National Geographic videos and such. Unfortunately, when my finances improved and the boys started getting heavily into sports, I succumbed to the begging. I still don't let them watch during the week (MNF is the exception if grades are good and homework done) and I closely monitor what they do watch on the weekends, but it's really not worth it overall. CNN international was a terrific channel though. I would also miss TDSWJS.
TJ | 12.18.04 - 9:45 pm | #

Right thread this time...

A new poetic form is born; the Epic Limerick...

Two GIs what went to see Keith
Set to punchin' out eachother's teeth
Just an interservice fray
Like you see every day
A soldier's home grown stress relief

Then the 101st Chairborne did shout
T'was the fault of an Antiwar lout
That some Liberal creep
Had attacked their dear Freep
Yes, that's what the whole thing's about!

But a fact is a stupid ol' thing
And it's not for our noble Reicht Wing
To let truth interfere
With some shit they hold dear
Though it shine out like Goat's-Ass Bling-Bling

I could go on, but I think it's best
That I give my poor finger a rest
But if you ladies and gents
Of poetickle bents
Care to take over, hey, be my guest
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.18.04 - 9:47 pm | #

Central Scrutinizer

I ended up having to talk the whole thing over with the wife while we were out shopping. For some reason that makes things better heh. I scare her to death, she wanders about disturbed but I feel better for getting it off my chest. A fair deal.
EkCenTriK | 12.18.04 - 9:47 pm | #

LJ,

My brother is a conflicted Toby Keith fan.

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't shell out the $ to see him now, considering the circumstances.
Central Scrutinizer | 12.18.04 - 9:47 pm | #

The state and county had sued Diebold for fraudulent claims about the security of its electronic voting machines."
EkCenTriK

Finally, some good news in all this bizzarro world crap for a change.

Stolen elections, propaganda, extreme nationalism, religious zealots...some sanity is nice every now and again.
bigvic | 12.18.04 - 9:49 pm | #

I'm angry. Bill O'Reilly accuses all Canadians of fucking 14-year olds on your national airwaves, and you people think this is OK.

I fucking hate haloscan.

Anyway, Billy Bob, no, we don't think it's okay. Most rational americans like and respect our Canadian neighbors.

But what do you suggest we do about that asswipe O'Reilly? kill him? last time I checked that was still illegal in North America.

Though in his case (and Toby Keith's) I'd have to say, "tant pis."
fourlegsgood | 12.18.04 - 9:50 pm | #

CLEAR CHANNEL IS CLEAR PROPAGANDA!
>>>READ IT AT REVOLUTIONREPORT.BLOGSPOT.COM
Ljly | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 9:50 pm | #

News from Washington state:
Two different groups-- the state democratic party and king county officials are filing appeal as soon as possible.
A Pierce County judge decided that a recount meant only that votes that had already been counted could be counted in the recount. Several hundred absentee ballots were found that had not been counted because they had been set aside for signature problems. Issue: What does a recount mean? All votes? Only those votes that were counted originally, but now scrutinized more closesly by a hand count? The republicans are arguing that the absentee ballots not be counted-- since they were not part of the original vote count, and therefore should not be considered in the recount.

About spitting at vets during the vietnam war. I was an antiwar activist in the 60s. In all of the protests that I participated (Washington DC after Kent State, circling the Pentagon, etc), I NEVER saw a single veteran treated with disrespect. I have never understood this myth. It has always amazed me how the left is demonized in our country, but now it has become fashionable to blame everything on liberalism. I oncec chauffered Abbie Hoffman (long story), but suffice to say that on the drive to the airport he grinned and said, you know fascism and fashion are on the same page in the dictionary. Well, there you go.
Rexroth's Daughter | 12.18.04 - 9:51 pm | #

mag -- thanks kindly. Now ya got me working on an actual script and characters. It's 48-Hour-Play time!

Doozer -- ohhhh, eye-dee-dye-dee-dye-dee-dye, dee dye-dee-dye-dee-dye!
filkertom | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 9:51 pm | #

He's done a few. I'm no fan of the guy, but sometimes--brace yourself, folks--people care more about the music than the politics. I know...how is that possible?

Not for nothing, but how is that possible? Toby Keith sucks ass.

In a really big way.
fourlegsgood | 12.18.04 - 9:52 pm | #

Stolen elections, propaganda, extreme nationalism, religious zealots

Hell and it isn't even 2005 yet.

I still hold the theory that it will all blow up shortly. The critical mass factor is building so rapidly that it is not going to institutionalize. They are not good enough to hold it together, it is going to affect people badly from loss of life in a useless war to people losing their incomes and homes due to voodoo economics and cult worship.
EkCenTriK | 12.18.04 - 9:52 pm | #

Where does the word "Canada" come from? What is its origin? Sounds Spanish.
Incognito | 12.18.04 - 9:54 pm | #

I have a question. This has been bugging me for a while.

What the hell is a doozer among frazzles?

Does this have something to do with fraggle rock?

fourlegsgood | 12.18.04 - 9:54 pm | #

4LG, right in one.
filkertom | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 9:54 pm | #

4LG:

Hon, you live in Texas. You know how it is with the country fans. Think of it this way: If that's what they call music, then would it surprise you that they'd like Toby Keith?
LJ | 12.18.04 - 9:55 pm | #

And for Atrios' original question, no, they don't.

They couldn't give a fuck.
fourlegsgood | 12.18.04 - 9:55 pm | #

The name "Canada" is believed to have originated from a Huron-Iroquoian word, Kanata meaning "village" or "settlement" or "collection of huts" [1] , referring to Stadacona, a settlement on the site of present-day Quebec City. Maps made by early European explorers show that the name River Canada was given to the Ottawa River, and the Saint Lawrence River below Montreal. A plausible hypothesis is that the river was named for the village on its banks, and the surrounding country for the river used to explore it.

An apocryphal explanation of the origin of the name is that Spanish cartographers, reflecting the fact that Spaniards had not explored the northern part of the continent, wrote ‘Aca nada’ on that part of their maps. This is translated as ‘Here, nothing’.

from Wikipedia.
pseudonymous in nc | 12.18.04 - 9:55 pm | #

I still hold the theory that it will all blow up shortly.

I agree.

Like Bob said, "One day the bottom of it drop out."
Central Scrutinizer | 12.18.04 - 9:55 pm | #

The state, "Colorado", which sounds similar, means "colored" in Spanish.
Incognito | 12.18.04 - 9:56 pm | #

What the hell is a doozer among frazzles?

The doozers were the builders on Fraggle Rock. A bit like wookies on Endor. You must acquit!
pseudonymous in nc | 12.18.04 - 9:57 pm | #

Hon, you live in Texas. You know how it is with the country fans.

I don't know a single, solitary country western fan.

Not a one.

Everyone I know likes rock, blues or classical.

Then again, I don't associate with redneck assholes.
fourlegsgood | 12.18.04 - 9:57 pm | #

LJ

Enough long necks and a backhoe sounds like music here. And then they two step.
EkCenTriK | 12.18.04 - 9:57 pm | #

But what do you suggest we do about that asswipe O'Reilly? kill him? last time I checked that was still illegal in North America.

Heh. Call it self-defence from assault with a deadly falafel.
pseudonymous in nc | 12.18.04 - 9:58 pm | #

thanks pseudononymous!
fourlegsgood | 12.18.04 - 9:58 pm | #

"But what do you suggest we do about that asswipe O'Reilly? "

Put him on between Mcenroe and Miller and the those two have first dibs on guests.
EkCenTriK | 12.18.04 - 9:59 pm | #

4LG, right in one.

Aren't I always?

pseudonymous, actually, I wonder if I'd possible to beat someone to death with a loofah?

If I had superpowers, I'd add him to the list of people I'm gonna smite with meteors. I'd be sure to get him while he was on the air so there'd be no mistaking that the wrath of four legs had arrived.
fourlegsgood | 12.18.04 - 10:01 pm | #

CS:

Hon, I wouldn't walk across the street for a Toby Keith concert. But I do acknowledge that some people just don't CARE about the political leanings of an artist. They care about the beat or whatever. In the case of country, if it makes ya feel like cryin' or scootin' your boots, then hell, that's good country.

For the record, I did read a piece that said Toby Keith was a) backing off his feud with the Dixie Chicks, and b) rethinking the Iraq War. It took ol' Toby a while, but he says the math ain't addin' up for him for sending soldiers over there. Maybe his Dad, rumored to be a yellow-dog Democrat, threatened to cane him but good if he didn't get his head outta his ass.
LJ | 12.18.04 - 10:01 pm | #

Shorter Billy Bob;
Riiiiinnnnnnnnggg....rinnnnngdingdingding riiiing dingdingding RRRRIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGG...riiiing...riiing... htchkpclonk! Dang it!

I'm pretty sure that was longer than the post you might be referring to. Or maybe not. Most Americans are too fat and stupid to figure out, anyway.. And in the end, what's the point? You'll just scream "nuke them", and that'll be the end of your consideration of extra-territorial issues.

Americans: fascinating to the bitter end.
Billy Bob | 12.18.04 - 10:01 pm | #

Yeah, what Billy Bob, said.
Incognito | 12.18.04 - 10:03 pm | #

tj-glad to hear you don't let the tube babysit the kids. another thought is don't let them get into video games too early either or they grow up zombies. kids i've watched grow up with my recent hs grad have been amazing to watch in regards to socialization etc.
waiting | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:05 pm | #

Country music used to be wonderful. Carter Family, Patsy Cline, Willie Nelson, Emmylou Harris.

Now it's the musical equivalent of pro wrestling. And it draws a similar fan base.

(Actually, the wrestling fans are usually smarter.)
Phoenix Woman | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:06 pm | #

If a real alien from outerspace landed with its spaceship, walked down the ramp to greet us in friendship, it would be so full of lead bullets before it got to the bottom.....
Incognito | 12.18.04 - 10:06 pm | #

4LG -- I like rock, blues, and classical. Do any of those cancel each other out, or what?
filkertom | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:07 pm | #

Every fundie from miles around would be standing there waiting for the devil alien with their shotguns.
Incognito | 12.18.04 - 10:08 pm | #

OT, but very important:

Gingerbread: squishy or crispy?
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:08 pm | #

4LG:

I guess I know country fans because I've lived in TX most of my life, and circumstances put me in contact with people who liked country. Work, for instance. I didn't write the country fans off as "redneck assholes" over it, though. Some of 'em, that's just the music they like, for reasons that are theirs. I wait until they demonstrate that they're a redneck asshole before hanging the label on them. But I'm funny that way.
LJ | 12.18.04 - 10:08 pm | #

You'll just scream "nuke them", and that'll be the end of your consideration of extra-territorial issues.

Be careful with that "you." You're painting with a really broad brush there.

Let me go on record that I don't consider these assholes real americans. They don't respect anything this country was founded on.

Real americans respect and honor our allies. Real americans are tolerant, generous and open minded.

We know that the french and the canadians have always been our friends- we respect and honor them.

Real americans have no interest in bombing anyone unless in self defense, and even then, only with the greatest reluctance.

So please don't lump us in with those idiots. It would be like saying you were like Adam Yoshida (a serious insult indeed!).
fourlegsgood | 12.18.04 - 10:08 pm | #

Phoenix -- some of us have even turned wrestling off completely. I admit to liking about a dozen country songs written in the past twenty years, but otherwise, yeah. I can listen to Johnny Cash and Roy Clark all day, but, like Homer & Jethro and their ilk, they fit better into the folk category. Their country popularity, I think, grows from that, rather than any good-ol-boyhood.
filkertom | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:09 pm | #

If I had superpowers, I'd add him to the list of people I'm gonna smite with meteors. I'd be sure to get him while he was on the air so there'd be no mistaking that the wrath of four legs had arrived.

Uh, I don't think meteors would be the power of a superhero named "4 legs."

"Super-Teabagging of Justice" would be a better power. Imagine the dazed supercriminals, defeated & humbled, mumbling to the cops, "4 legs is good... 4 legs is good... or was that 5 legs? And two yo-yos?"
Thersites | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:09 pm | #

OT, but very important:

Gingerbread: squishy or crispy?
NYMary

crisp outside, soft in the middle...
jh | 12.18.04 - 10:09 pm | #

Be careful with that "you." You're painting with a really broad brush there.

four legs, it's true. It's not a "broad brush" when it's mostly true. Most 'Murkans are morons.
Incognito | 12.18.04 - 10:11 pm | #

fourlegsgood;
Yup. And the Blogistani are the Silly People...

Basically, as a construction worker, I am pretty much of a Doozer, and as lawyers, teachers, professors, Ordained Ministers, economists, journalists, and diverse and sundry professional types, y'all are pretty much Fraggles. (Pretty much)
Not really a statement or anything, just something I found humorous one day. But then, I once found "G Goober Goober etc" humorous, too, so WTF.
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.18.04 - 10:11 pm | #

what the h*ll's going on with the recount in Washington? The governor's race appears to depend on whether a full recount happens in King County. And the latest ruling by the courts says "aw, it's too late to consider those [valid] ballots".
Rick 12.18.04 - 9:08 pm

One more interesting tidbit today. Both Snohomish and Pierce counties said that they also found ballots that had been misplaced, checked with their canvassing boards, and counted them! This is what the Repubs are fighting in King Co. Amazing. If it's allowed in one county, it damn well better be allowed in all. The Dems have filed an appeal, so there's still hope. This was on KOMO in Seattle, haven't checked to see if it's online anywhere.
Tow | 12.18.04 - 10:12 pm | #

Hon, I wouldn't walk across the street for a Toby Keith concert.

You couldn't hold a big enough gun to my head....

Even though I've seen it the sum total of 1 time, the "boot in yer ass video" makes me sick to my stomach to even think about it.

God bless the Dixie Chicks.

I'm still waiting for that C**t Diane Sawyers to apologize to Natalie.
Central Scrutinizer | 12.18.04 - 10:12 pm | #

I'm a fan of the slightly crisp on the edges but soft inside, too.
bigvic | 12.18.04 - 10:12 pm | #

four legs, over 50% at least of'Murkans are morons. Look at those who voted for Bush and those who didn't even bother to vote.
Incognito | 12.18.04 - 10:13 pm | #

NY Mary, squishy.

Incognito, you're so right. Then the rest of the aliens would take off and nuke us from orbit, "just to be sure."

filkertom, no, they don't cancel out. For the record I also love R & B (especially Motown) and like NY Mary, I like pop too.

LJ, I'm sure there are some real nice country western fans, but most of the bumper stickers I see for country stations are usually on big honking pick up trucks with Bush 04 stickers.

Which means they think illegal war, torture and raping the environment and looting the treasury is A-ok.

Sounds like an asshole to me. Just saying.
fourlegsgood | 12.18.04 - 10:13 pm | #

Bombs away. Wow. Check this out.

http://www.boltcity.com/ copper_r...r_rpfantasy.htm
nur al cubicle | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:14 pm | #

Squishy, Mary! You want crispy, you make ginger snaps.

DAF, I don't know the provenance of this Doozer vs. Fraggle thing you speak of. Sounds like I'm kinda in between, though...I've had almost every kind of job there is at one point or another...how are half-breeds treated in your society?
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:15 pm | #

CS:

Sawyer will never apologize to Natalie. Why would she feel the need? Diane Sawyer has always been a Republican--she worked for Nixon, for crying out loud. That makes her damaged goods in my book, and her reporting suspect for me.
LJ | 12.18.04 - 10:15 pm | #

I'm a fan of the slightly crisp on the edges but soft inside, too.
bigvic

they dunk better that way, not so much dropping into the milk...
jh | 12.18.04 - 10:15 pm | #

I like rock, blues, and classical.

Those ALL suck.

I listen exclusively to the background music to first-generation Nintendo games.

And that's made me what I am today: the next nominee for Director of Homeland Security.
Thersites | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:15 pm | #

NY Mary--
Cookies-- like them chewy and warm. True for gingerbread and chocolate chip.
Rexroth's Daughter | 12.18.04 - 10:16 pm | #

"But what do you suggest we do about that asswipe O'Reilly?"

Pelt him with loofahs and falafel, of course. Jeez, that practically answers itself!
Buzz Bomb | 12.18.04 - 10:17 pm | #

An apocryphal explanation of the origin of the name is that Spanish cartographers, reflecting the fact that Spaniards had not explored the northern part of the continent, wrote ‘Aca nada’ on that part of their maps. This is translated as ‘Here, nothing’.

Well, seeing as the Spanish word for here is aqui (right here) or aqua (slightly farther away, but still close), it would have to fall into the B.S. column.
Unless, it wasn't written but merely overheard in a portside taverna somewhere, well, hooda fucknose.
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.18.04 - 10:17 pm | #

For those despairing of country music, there's always Gillian Welch, and her fusion of bluegrass, country and a rock sensibility. Great, great live, too.
pseudonymous in nc | 12.18.04 - 10:18 pm | #

Incog, we're on the same page. At least 50 % are morons.

Thersites, I dunno, I'm kind of partial to celestial things... being able to wield lightning is a power I'd like too.

I figure that prior to someone getting hit by one of my meteors, they'd hear the approaching drumbeat of hooves.... it would get louder and louder, then BAM!! vaporized by a mini-meteor.
fourlegsgood | 12.18.04 - 10:18 pm | #

public radio in detroit took off terrific bluegrass music show on sat afternoons. that was my favorite part of the week.
waiting | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:18 pm | #

I'm still waiting for that C**t Diane Sawyers to apologize to Natalie.
Central Scrutinizer

What did that hack do now? Jeepers, I used to respect her and think she was dignified.
bigvic | 12.18.04 - 10:18 pm | #

Guys, you don't know how happy I am you're all voting for squishy...

Oh, wait. The question was about gingerbread.

Beg pardon. Carry on.
Thersites | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:18 pm | #

I listen exclusively to the background music to first-generation Nintendo games.

Yeah, that's pretty cool...in Fagville!

The only thing I listen to anymore is a CD called "Insect Noises in Stored Foodstuffs."
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:18 pm | #

LJ,

"How could you?

How could you?"

God bless Natalie.
Central Scrutinizer | 12.18.04 - 10:20 pm | #

We're basically dumbasses living in a dumbass society. That's about the extent of it.
Incognito | 12.18.04 - 10:20 pm | #

Pelt him with loofahs and falafel, of course. Jeez, that practically answers itself!
Buzz Bomb

Hey, it's winter; can we soak the loofahs and leave 'em outside overnight, first? hmmm? And maybe overcook the falafel a bit? With maybe a bit too much Portland in the recipe?
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.18.04 - 10:20 pm | #

Little Thersites (see Big-Boyblogging @ homepage) is doing a gingerbread UNIT in kindergarten. Making gingerbread, talking about gingerbread, reading the Gingerbread Man... There's modern education for you. But whenever I make people-shaped gingerbread,it comes out like cardboard. How do I make 'em chewy?
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:20 pm | #

NYMary ~

Squishy ~ the gingerbread will firm up.

Hi everybody ~ Ho ho ho!

Decorating with Christian items to celebrate like a pagan.

I'm half Catholic (recovering), half pagan.

Me likes the pagan. It suits me better.

I'll go back to Kathleen Battle singing carols now.
Vicki Stein | 12.18.04 - 10:21 pm | #

The only thing I listen to anymore is a CD called "Insect Noises in Stored Foodstuffs."

Clearly, you're angling for Secretary of Agriculture. Think that's taken, though.
Thersites | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:21 pm | #

I can't read that swill. Conservatives don't seem to care about being smart or doing what's right, they just want to win, so they have no problem abusing the truth to get there. And then they abuse their power, abuse the law and abuse the democratic process.

They are traitors. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
buy blue | 12.18.04 - 10:21 pm | #

Gingerbread: squishy or crispy?

Crispy outside, squishy inside. (AKA parkin.)

Though the classic ginger-snap is wonderful dunked in tea.
pseudonymous in nc | 12.18.04 - 10:21 pm | #

I figure that prior to someone getting hit by one of my meteors, they'd hear the approaching drumbeat of hooves.... it would get louder and louder, then BAM!! vaporized by a mini-meteor.
fourlegsgood

remind me to stay on your good side...
jh | 12.18.04 - 10:21 pm | #

i think the soft hard thing (not that one) has to do with how long you bake them.
waiting | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:22 pm | #

I wait until they demonstrate that they're a redneck asshole before hanging the label on them. But I'm funny that way.

Amen, brother, Personally, I like country music--old country like willie, cash, hank williams, etc. And a lot of alt-country is excellent as well. Now, the country music that gets played on the radio is utter crap. Just like radio pop music...
Johnny Vagabond | 12.18.04 - 10:22 pm | #

whenever I make people-shaped gingerbread,it comes out like cardboard. How do I make 'em chewy?

I already suggested brandy & powdered opium, for the kids, and got shot down. So that's off the list. Just so you know.
Thersites | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:22 pm | #

See, I like gingerbread in actual BREAD form...tall and spongy (and with pumpkin ice cream, ideally).

Failing that, I don't know of any way to make gingerbread men that won't be crisp within an hour or two of cooling down...maybe someone else - Hecate? - knows some magic spell.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:23 pm | #

NY mary, I haven't a clue.

My mother used to make gingerbread in a square pan that was more like a cake.

Ummm, delicious.

Maybe you bake them until they're not quite done.
fourlegsgood | 12.18.04 - 10:23 pm | #

NYMary ~

the secret is to never over-bake. Watch the cookies/gingerbread like a hawk. Even though things may look like they're not done, as long as they have a slight golden glow, they're done. They harden (firm up)after you take them out of the oven.

Spoken like a woman who has baked and eaten far too many cookies in her 44 years.
Vicki Stein | 12.18.04 - 10:23 pm | #

Phila - Zorak loves you...

Though I was expecting something along the lines of "Nudibranch Love Songs for Fun and Profit"
Tom - Daai Tou Laam | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:23 pm | #

pseudonymous:
translate for me: what's the difference between treacle and molasses?
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:24 pm | #

4LG:

I'm not saying country fans are never redneck assholes. Heck, I know a lot of them are. But not all of them.

My pothead atheist (and socialist) stepfather loved country when he was alive. In fact, one of the most memorable experiences of my life was after he divorced my mom, and he took me to a bar in Dallas. A country bar. A gay country bar (explains the divorce, btw). Had the time of my life.
LJ | 12.18.04 - 10:24 pm | #

Philalethes, yep, in the bread form. My mother used to serve it warm with fresh whipped cream.

Yummy.
fourlegsgood | 12.18.04 - 10:25 pm | #

I listen exclusively to the background music to first-generation Nintendo games

The only thing I listen to anymore is a CD called "Insect Noises in Stored Foodstuffs."

Gee, now I don't feel nearly so strange for having the Forbidden Planet soundtrack in my player for the last month and a half....
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.18.04 - 10:25 pm | #

NYMary -- ewww. Squishy gingerbread!? You're supposed to build houses out of that stuff.
filkertom | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:26 pm | #

Billy Bob, if anyone's likely to get caught banging a 14 year old, it's Bill O'Reilly. Trust me on this; guys like O'Reilly are their own worst enemy. By the way, he doesn't speak for all Americans (and that goes double for me, personally). He's not a cridible journalist; he started out doing trash tabloid shows like "Hard Copy" and as far as I'm concerned, he's still a hack. Bill O'Reilly just repeats what his masters tell him; I'll bet he watches replays of some of his shows and even he can't believe the shit he's spewing.
gene214 | 12.18.04 - 10:26 pm | #

I'm currently in SC visiting my girlfriend, and I saw a bumper sticker that said "This Bowhunter Makes A Difference."

WTF???
Eli | 12.18.04 - 10:26 pm | #

Incog, what happened to the symbol? I liked it. It suited you.

I'm thinking of altering my posting name to Vicki. I'm a little concerned about the fact that I've been posting for close to a year with my real name. I'm starting to feel like it could bite me in the ass with regard to employment issues ~ I'm open (my nature) ~ therefore, I am vulnerable. Note that I am typing this on a Saturday night...
Vicki Stein | 12.18.04 - 10:27 pm | #

Incog, we're on the same page. At least 50 % are morons.

The best way I've heard it put was this: "You know how dumb the average guy is, right? Well, if consider the definition of the word average you realize that half of them are dumber than that."
Johnny Vagabond | 12.18.04 - 10:27 pm | #

That's "credible journalist" - goddamn typos!
gene214 | 12.18.04 - 10:27 pm | #

Phila - Zorak loves you...

Though I was expecting something along the lines of "Nudibranch Love Songs for Fun and Profit"
Tom - Daai Tou Laam

Great! I once found something like that hanging on my screen door. I'd say I love him back, but I fear he'd be a poor armful in the dark, when you're shivering with the red passion from drinking too much porter.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:27 pm | #

LJ, I'm just not real happy with my fellow texans at the moment.
fourlegsgood | 12.18.04 - 10:27 pm | #

For VGM music, try www.minibosses.com.

Download the Castlevania track. These folks are not bad.
EkCenTriK | 12.18.04 - 10:27 pm | #

4legs,
That's what I thought gingerbread was, with hard sauce. But no, apparently it's supposed to be anthropomorphic.

I could never figure out the whole "house" thing, either.

Vicki,
I will! That must be the problem. I'll watch them carefully, I swear.
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:27 pm | #

I figure that prior to someone getting hit by one of my meteors, they'd hear the approaching drumbeat of hooves

Hooved meteors would be pretty cool. In general, and not just for smiting purposes.

My superpower would be to make someone understand the difference between a plural and a possessive noun.

But I'd still want them to hear hooves.
Thersites | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:28 pm | #

Johnny V.,
Hear, hear! Pop is never really pop. Check homepage for terrifying evidence of pop geekdom.
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:29 pm | #

"These folks are not bad."

Let me qualify that a bit, after a beer or two.
EkCenTriK | 12.18.04 - 10:30 pm | #

Rethug mantra:

Lie, Cheat, Steal, cause we deserve the spoils. Then blame the libruls.

Fuckers.
randolph the red | 12.18.04 - 10:30 pm | #

Next scene -- I'm gonna have to work out the story and pound on this over the next few days, but lemme know if this flavor works....

-------------

(Six of the reporters go upstage into shadow. Three of them go downstage, near where a desk on a platform is slid downstage left. The desk has a computer, two coffee cups -- one filled with pens and pencils -- and a Green Ghost [a prop from a board game of the 1960s -- check eBay]. Sitting at the desk is HOWARD BOYLD, a big man in his late 40s. He wears a suit, and has a pipe, which he keeps in his mouth till he begins to speak.)

GROUPIE #1
Oh-mi-GAWD! It's HIM!

GROUPIE #2
Howard Boyld!

GROUPIE #3
Oh, he's even taller than he is in the paper!

HOWARD BOYLD (talking as he types)
Sure, ten thousand jobs a week... are exported... to this faraway land... whose indigent people... only make... (pauses, spins the Green Ghost, which whizzes and whirrs to a halt; he looks at where it's pointing) ... one-fifth of what comparable... workers make here. And, sure... they're hard to understand... and you feel like an ass... talking to a guy... who sounds like... Apu on The Simpsons... but insists his name is "Mark". But, hey. Corporate profits are up! And these poor kids need the jobs! And, the lower the production costs... the lower... the final price of the products... they make... which will enable... our recently unemployed... workers... to be able to... afford those vital goods... on the installment plan... thus bolstering... our flagging economy. Or don't you want... to help... America? (grins, decisively hits a key) Send!

(The groupies all swoon, then retreat to the shadows upstage. The desk is slid offstage left. Another desk slides onstage right. A man in his early 30s paces back and forth in front of the desk, talking on a cell phone. An assistant, one of the original nine, follows him.)

SANDY ELVEN
No... no... no... You've gotta be ki- I said NO! How many -- (the assistant, looking mystified, steps forward; Sandy waves him back) No, listen. It's not gonna work. It doesn't fit. No... no... maybe. Okay, that'll help. Yeah, that's better. Yes. Yes. Absolutely yes. Yeah, tha- much better, yes. Good. Are we through? Fine. And we agree on price? Right. Great. See ya. (He hangs up the cell phone) What?

ASSISTANT
Ummm... the guy with the new office furniture is outside... were you talking with someone else about it?

SANDY
What...? No! That was Bill O'Reilly. He wanted to practice for a date tonight. Damn hetero freaks.

--------------------

More to come....
filkertom | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:30 pm | #

Buzz Bomb! I just misread your handle as "Fuzz Bomb", and almost fell out of my chair. I hereby declare I will name my nest cat--if this batch ever wears out--Fuzzbomb!
Thenkyouveddymuch!
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.18.04 - 10:31 pm | #

NYMary,

Since the bigvic family has been making cookies for 2 weeks now, we could recite the instructions from memory. WE have a factory-like, efficient machine running here.

Bake at 350, no matter what your directions tell you. That cooks the outside faster. When JUST the edges are slightly brown (about 8-10 minutes), yank 'em. Peace!

And BTW, cooking is very educational.
Math, reading, making judgements, etc.
bigvic | 12.18.04 - 10:31 pm | #

Eli,
I have no idea what it means, but I want that bumpersticker.
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:32 pm | #

Gee, now I don't feel nearly so strange for having the Forbidden Planet soundtrack in my player for the last month and a half....
Doozer among Fraggles

I'm kidding. I own it, but I don't play it very often! But currently playing on this very computer is "Mayotte" by Sidney Bechet, from his amazing album of traditional Haitian music. LJ talked me into buying an iPod, so I've been able to load about 14 solid days' worth of music onto this thing so far...

I like a lot of country stuff too, actually. The 20s-30s stuff, of course, but also Merle Haggard, Ferlin Husky, Porter Wagoner, all those folks. But I definitely agree with whoever said the modern stuff makes pro-wrestling look cultured by comparison.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:32 pm | #

My superpower would be to make someone understand the difference between a plural and a possessive noun.

Thersites

LOL!!! That's three quarters of America, ain't it?
Vicki Stein | 12.18.04 - 10:32 pm | #

My superpower would be to make someone understand the difference between a plural and a possessive noun.

I'd be up for that.

The drumming of hooves makes me think back to when the Wizard of Id, many, many years ago did a series of strips about a character called the "midnight gallumper" who would gallop wildly through the night and end his rampage by yelling "the king is a FINK!!"

I think I could like a hoof mark on my victims foreheads, just so there was no mistake.

As Cartman says, superpowers are sweet!!
fourlegsgood | 12.18.04 - 10:32 pm | #

Cooking is art, baking is chemistry.
jh | 12.18.04 - 10:33 pm | #

I'm making a gingerbread castle. For that the gingerbread will have to be very strong. I glue the walls together with melted sugar, and always end up with horrible burns on my fingers.
Echidne of the snakes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:34 pm | #

I'm making a gingerbread castle.

I hope you'll invite us all in!
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:35 pm | #

Doozer -- y'ever hear Return to the Forbidden Planet?
filkertom | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:35 pm | #

Echidne, I saw a martha stewart show the other day (I was flipping past and stopped) she was making a gingerbread house that way.

She says you're supposed to keep a bowl of ice water handy to deal with the burns.

The whole project looked terrifying to me.
fourlegsgood | 12.18.04 - 10:36 pm | #

Cooking is art, baking is chemistry.
jh

True about baking...cooking, like art, is subjective...
Vicki Stein | 12.18.04 - 10:36 pm | #

Gingerbread is alla that crap hanging offa the eaves, and barnacled up around the doorways and window trim, that the carpenters really hate doing--except for the old guys--and they charge you an arm & a leg for and the Termites are just gonna eat it, anyway. It goes up hard & dry, falls of soft & squishy.
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.18.04 - 10:38 pm | #

NYMary,

ha! I like yer blog. Tho, I have to admit that much of it is lost one me--pop is one genre I never got into. That and punk, but then I'm a square...
Johnny Vagabond | 12.18.04 - 10:38 pm | #

Doozer, is being a fraggle a bad thing?
fourlegsgood | 12.18.04 - 10:39 pm | #

Well, if I could pick my superpower, I would have the power to make folks tell the difference between fact and fiction.
bigvic | 12.18.04 - 10:39 pm | #

Philalethes, you'd look cute miniaturized in the castle!

Fourlegsgood, I have the ice water always but it's never going to work, because I have to hold the walls together until the sugar stiffens enough to work on its own, and by that time the boils have started to emerge.

But it's worth it. I'm going to make crenellations and towers and everything. The batter has about five lbs of flour in it.
Echidne of the snakes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:40 pm | #

It goes up hard & dry, falls of soft & squishy.

No comment.
Central Scrutinizer | 12.18.04 - 10:40 pm | #

Pardon the innuendo, but being a doozer among fraggles rocks!
Vicki Stein | 12.18.04 - 10:40 pm | #

Johnny, I'd discuss this with you, but I'm not allowed to without steve simels....
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:40 pm | #

Well, must go wrap presents.

NYMary, good luck with the gingerbread.
fourlegsgood | 12.18.04 - 10:41 pm | #

The best way I've heard it put was this: "You know how dumb the average guy is, right? Well, if consider the definition of the word average you realize that half of them are dumber than that."
Johnny Vagabond

The average intelligence of an American is around 100 IQ. They're not all the witty erudite like Philalethes who post here. We're the extreme radical exception, not the rule.
Incognito | 12.18.04 - 10:41 pm | #

Well, if I could pick my superpower, I would have the power to make folks tell the difference between fact and fiction.
bigvic

a fucking men! I'm proud to share at least part of your name!
Vicki Stein | 12.18.04 - 10:41 pm | #

NYMary:

It's been a while since I've done gingerbread, but I think if you use real butter and don't overcook, they're less likely to be cardboard. Make sure you really get the butter and sugar, THEN molasses and eggs, mixed well before adding the dry ingredients (sift those first). I've seen recipes that said 1/4 inch thick when you roll it out...that's probably right, but most people think it's smaller than it actually is, so they go lower. Big mistake. The thicker the dough, the less likely that they'll dry out. Try a few different thicknesses, see what works. When you bake (325, 15-20 minutes), get them out when they're SLIGHTLY firm. If you wait too long, they'll be cardboard before you know it.

Oh--and one of the things my grandmother taught me, which is considered a no-no now, is to let the butter and eggs get to room temperature before using them. Nana swore by this rule. I've done it her way and using eggs out of the fridge. I don't know why, but the room temperature thing does work better.
LJ | 12.18.04 - 10:41 pm | #

Echidne, I saw a martha stewart show the other day (I was flipping past and stopped) she was making a gingerbread house that way.

She says you're supposed to keep a bowl of ice water handy to deal with the burns.

Can't have blisters slowing you down when you might need to get on the horn to your lawyer pretty damn quick.
Thersites | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:42 pm | #

Some reasons why this whole thing stinks.

1. Toby Keith concert and they're both not drunk?
2. As was documented the guy was yelling anti-military profanities and nobody around there took offense? Even though the guy was alleged to have had several others with him, there was bound to be other groups of pro-military folks there, afterall, this was a country music/nationalistic performer?
3. This guy was a member of our military and got his ass kicked by ex-military? No wonder we're doing so poorly over there! If we didn't have better CCC and high tech weapons they'd probably be calling Fallujah 'Little Big Horn 2'.
4. As has also been noted, this was a redneck concert. There is no way in hell anyone who was anti-military or anti-Iraq war would be there unless they were dragged there by someone else, likely a date or a spouse.
5. Back on #2, this was a redneck concert. There were bound to be truck 4x4s with gun racks and rifles/shotguns. And nobody grabbed one and took this guy out? Rednecks live for this shit. But then again it was Ohio and Ohio is by no means redneck country. It's got lots of rural areas but in Ohio we don't call them rednecks, just Michigan residents illegally crossing the border to experience cleaner air, water, and women with less VDs.
6. Considering how arrogant and elitist republicans are, jumping to conclusions and overreacting, there's no way this could be anything but something *other* than what they say it was.

MYOB'
.
MYOB | 12.18.04 - 10:42 pm | #

Philalethes, you'd look cute miniaturized in the castle!

Especially in this frilly peignor I borrowed from Holden!

I wish you people would knock this food talk off, though. Mrs. P and I have been sick for a few days now...little in the house to eat, and absolutely no energy to cook it.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:42 pm | #

But it's worth it. I'm going to make crenellations and towers and everything. The batter has about five lbs of flour in it.

We must see photos. I hope you'll surround the castle with a haunted forest and some dragons.
fourlegsgood | 12.18.04 - 10:43 pm | #

LJ's right ~ real butter is an integral part of successful gingerbread, and sugar cookies, too.

I must go dance calypso now with my daughter...

we are one goofy household...
Vicki Stein | 12.18.04 - 10:44 pm | #

LJ talked me into buying an iPod, so I've been able to load about 14 solid days' worth of music onto this thing so far...

Dammit to hell, I've sold so many of these for Apple that I could ask for commissions.
LJ | 12.18.04 - 10:44 pm | #

Oh--and one of the things my grandmother taught me, which is considered a no-no now, is to let the butter and eggs get to room temperature before using them.

Absolutely! You have to do that, really. They tell people not to, 'cause of salmonella, but as long as you're cooking it thoroughly (and not letting kids lick up the batter), there's no problem.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:44 pm | #

Mrs. P and I have been sick for a few days now...little in the house to eat, and absolutely no energy to cook it.

Silly rabbit- order out!!

It's the only civilized thing to do.
fourlegsgood | 12.18.04 - 10:45 pm | #

I don't believe in baking with anything but real butter, so that's ok.
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:45 pm | #

Dammit to hell, I've sold so many of these for Apple that I could ask for commissions.
LJ

I'll give ya one. If not more.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:46 pm | #

,i>Oh--and one of the things my grandmother taught me, which is considered a no-no now, is to let the butter and eggs get to room temperature before using them. Nana swore by this rule. I've done it her way and using eggs out of the fridge. I don't know why, but the room temperature thing does work better.
LJ

I learned this too. It works. Fuck common wisdom. One hour on the countertop is not going to poison you or your family.

Just sayin...
Vicki Stein | 12.18.04 - 10:46 pm | #

Johnny V,
Sadly, this *is* our date. But we have little kids. And two laptops.
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:47 pm | #

It's the only civilized thing to do.
fourlegsgood

True, when you live in civilization! But there's not a hell of a lot to order in where I live. We'll figure something out, though. I'll drag my sorry ass off the couch and make some soup or something.

Alternatively, I could deal with the drive into the city, but the Mrs. is still pretty congested and tired.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:48 pm | #

NYMary et al -

So wait, are you saying gingerbread cookies don't soften up with the "slice of bread" trick? (Put bread in the container with cookies after baking, bread gets hard as a rock, cookies stay soft).

Does this not work for gingerbread?
Snugglebunny | 12.18.04 - 10:48 pm | #

Cooking is art, baking is chemistry.

Only if you have no imagination. A friend of ours has a fabulous cafe and pastry shop. She is an artist. Anyone can follow a cookie recipe, but to actually create some of the complicated and to die for desserts she makes is another thing altogether.
bigvic | 12.18.04 - 10:49 pm | #

So please don't lump us in with those idiots. It would be like saying you were like Adam Yoshida (a serious insult indeed!).

Yeah, that might be relevant and important if Yoshida had any reach beyond his stupid blog. Most Canadians (I mean 99% here) have never heard of him; he's never appeared on national media and I doubt he ever will.

That's not the same thing as the nazi parade of O'Reilly and Coulter day after day. Why do I have to explain this to you? Don't you, as a woefully average American, understand totalitarianism?
Billy Bob | 12.18.04 - 10:50 pm | #

Vicki:

Since I went back to butter, I've noticed that nearly everything I make now is better that it was with margarine (greasy AND sticky--YUCK).
LJ | 12.18.04 - 10:50 pm | #

The average intelligence of an American is around 100 IQ. They're not all the witty erudite like Philalethes who post here. We're the extreme radical exception, not the rule.

Absolutely true. And my comment was said at least partly in jest. I try to stay positive about the issue. Perhaps the Average Joe is not so stupid as just lazy.

hey, a guy can dream can't he?
Johnny Vagabond | 12.18.04 - 10:50 pm | #

They tell people not to, 'cause of salmonella

Sheeit. Where I come from, we used to mix salmonella and gin, and goddamn it, we LIKED it.

Beat all hell out of that breast milk crap.

And how tough was YOUR neighborhood?
Thersites | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:52 pm | #

You fuckin liberals suck with your elitist bullshit about gingerbread! You don't fool any one reading this! Why dont you mail some of your shitty lib gingerbread to Michael Moore, that fat fuckin traitor can have a heart atack sooner that way! Four more glorious years! BWAAA ha ha ha ha!
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:52 pm | #

LJ ~

The phrase "Like buttah" is so true...
Vicki Stein | 12.18.04 - 10:53 pm | #

Would anyone purchase "From Kerik to Kirkuk: How Bush Has Fucked Us All Up"?

If so, I'd be pleased to write it.
smarty jones | 12.18.04 - 10:53 pm | #

DAF, I don't know the provenance of this Doozer vs. Fraggle thing you speak of.

No "vs", Phil. An "amongness", so to speak. I wasn't always a Doozer, myself, and I've had a rather varied "career" history, including Industrial Engineer, pizza cook, auto painter, draftsman, office drone, bartender, yada yada.
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.18.04 - 10:53 pm | #

Phila:

I plan to collect that commission one day, baby.

Be ready.
LJ | 12.18.04 - 10:54 pm | #

We must see photos. I hope you'll surround the castle with a haunted forest and some dragons.

What a wonderful idea! Some gingerbread dragons! Yes!

I'll probably put pictures on my blog if it comes out looking good.

The secret of good gingerbread is to boil the butter, the molasses and the spices together, then add all the other stuff. Then you let it be overnight. The result is perfect.
Echidne of the snakes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:54 pm | #

So, should I keep going with "Hacks: The Musical"?

Must get sleep. 'Night, all.
filkertom | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:55 pm | #

GODDAMN IT, I CAN'T CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE WITH YOUR WITTY ERUDITE BULLSHIT!!!
Incognito | 12.18.04 - 10:55 pm | #

SOFT GINGERBREAD

1 c. butter
1 c. molasses
1 c. sugar
1 c. sour or buttermilk
1 tsp. [baking] soda, dissolved in boiling water
1 tbs. ginger
1 tsp. cinnamon
2 eggs
Flour (see recipe)
1/2 lb. raisins (optional)

About five cups of flour--enough to make it thick as cup-cake batter, perhaps a trifle thicker. Work in four cups first, and add very cautiously.
Stir butter, sugar, molasses, and spice together to a light cream, set them on the range until slightly warm; beat the eggs light; add the milk to the warmed mixture, then the eggs, the soda, and lastly the flour. Beat very hard ten minutes, and bake at once in a loaf, or in small tins. Half a pound raisins, seeded, and cut in half will improve this excellent gingerbread. Dredge them well [in flour] before putting them in. Add them at the last.
--Marion Harland, Common Sense in the Household, 1871

Notes: Do NOT make this in a bread pan. The outside looks done, then when you take it out the side starts to slowly bulge and while you're standing there looking at it thinking "WTF?" and then "Oh shit," it ruptures and the still-liquid insides gushes out in a slow-motion flood. V. messy as well as wasteful of molasses, which is expensive.

Use a big cookie sheet with sides if you want this for constructionary purposes. I would use a glue gun to hold parts together, then cover any visible plastic with powdered sugar and water paste.
Xan | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:56 pm | #

Phil,
I'm pretty sure this has something to with Fraggle Rock, an early children's program on HBO. Jim Henson, I think. But I could be wrong.
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:56 pm | #

Night, dear filkertom. I'm right behind you. Must go to the communal bed alone tonight.
Vicki Stein | 12.18.04 - 10:56 pm | #

NYMary,

Good point. I hearby revise my (mildly) clever bit of snark to exclude those with children. or spouses. or visiting family. or pets in need of bathing. or...

Damn, that prolly just leaves me. Physician, heal thyself!
Johnny Vagabond | 12.18.04 - 10:56 pm | #

CUT IT OUT NOW!!
Incognito | 12.18.04 - 10:56 pm | #

It's Saturday night and what are we doing? Hanging out at Atrios... If anyone reading this happens to get a life in the near future, umm... can I borrow it? Just for a weekend.
Johnny Vagabond | Email | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:45 pm | #

There are 18 women in my living room right now. My wife is throwing a baby shower and our home was the only one large enough. I'm here because every 15-20 minutes the wife calls me into the living room where I stand in front all of them like that idiot Homer Simpson and they all in chorus ask me stupid shit questions like.. "If you could have an affair with the most beautiful woman in the world and (wife) would never find out would you do it?" or "How do you walk around with that thing down there? Don't you trip?"
Stupid shit like that where they laugh afterwards without realizing I was never paying attention in the first f*cking place. I'm only here for their amusement, and to help drive some of them home should they drink too much. So you better f*cking feal sorry for me you sack of shit!

MYOB'
.
MYOB | 12.18.04 - 10:57 pm | #

Where I come from, we used to mix salmonella and gin, and goddamn it, we LIKED it.

Back in *my* day, we didn't have salmonella - we had trilobitella, and we damn well had to like it.
Eli | 12.18.04 - 10:57 pm | #

That's not the same thing as the nazi parade of O'Reilly and Coulter day after day. Why do I have to explain this to you? Don't you, as a woefully average American, understand totalitarianism?

I have to agree with this. The Canadian media is relatively civilized compared to the American media.

And your elections are conducted at a much higher level.

Yoshida's just a freak with a website.
SWR | 12.18.04 - 10:57 pm | #

GODDAMN IT, I CAN'T CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE WITH YOUR WITTY ERUDITE BULLSHIT!!!

you're kidding, right?
Johnny Vagabond | 12.18.04 - 10:57 pm | #

Incognito, hang in there. I'm sending positive energy your way.
Vicki Stein | 12.18.04 - 10:58 pm | #

MYOB,
How do I get invited to your house? That sounds fun, unless, of course, you're the guy in question. But I'll bet the women are having a hell of a time.
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:59 pm | #

Re: superpowers.

a fucking men! I'm proud to share at least part of your name!
Vicki Stein

I'm proud to share the name of any gal that dances the calypso with her kid on a Sat. night. REAL family values.
bigvic | 12.18.04 - 10:59 pm | #

I'm only here for their amusement, and to help drive some of them home should they drink too much. So you better f*cking feal sorry for me you sack of shit!

Yes. I also am not a pussy, Peter.
Thersites | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:59 pm | #

Perhaps the Average Joe is not so stupid as just lazy.

hey, a guy can dream can't he?
Johnny Vagabond

It occurred to me several years ago to ask myself; Do you actually know anyone with an IQ of 100? (yes I do). Well, half the people in the world are even stupider than that!
Not the most optimistic thought I ever had.
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.18.04 - 10:59 pm | #

It's Saturday night and what are we doing? Hanging out at Atrios...

Only losers party on Saturday night. Cool people go out on Thursday night to avoid the bridge and tunnel crowd.

(disclaimer: This is what I've heard not experienced)
SWR | 12.18.04 - 10:59 pm | #

And how tough was YOUR neighborhood?
Thersites

Mine was so tough we used naval jelly instead of Johnson's baby shampoo, and our mothers wiped us with sandpaper. The "animal crackers" we got were shards of deer vertebrae. If I wanted dinner, I had to fight the raccoon for it. When Santa came down the chimney, we'd hogtie him and jerk off onto his beard.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:59 pm | #

Theri:

A friend of my mother's offered me a cup of coffee when I was pregnant with the LJ spawn. After three miscarriages, I was a bit more nervous about doing the right thing than most first-time moms. I mean, I was a FANATIC about doing everything just right. At the time, everyone was screaming for pregnant women to stay away from caffeine. So I turned down her offer and asked for juice.

She kind of looked at me funny, then said to my mother, "Good grief, I'd like to know how we managed to have kids who turned out just fine when we drank coffee like water when we were pregnant."

I resisted the urge to start twitching like I had Tourette's. My mother would have taken a cane to me, pregnant or not, if I'd been that much of a smart-ass around one of her friends.
LJ | 12.18.04 - 11:01 pm | #

"If anyone reading this happens to get a life in the near future, umm... can I borrow it? Just for a weekend."

Many of us have passed into that world of physical interaction and visits to the mall. Trust me, it is neither pleasant or open to those of us who consider scrolling text a part of a lifestyle. You would better yourself to focus here than imagine a world of splendor past that your keyboard and mouse. Beware that which you seek, it may come attached with the piercing sunlight fabled by many and strange breezes which tossle your hair without your consent. And if perchance you meet a denizen of that world, then comes the relationship, the most dreaded of outside influences on the innocent technocrat. Trespass there and your world may never be the same.

(except to vote when necessary of course)
EkCenTriK | 12.18.04 - 11:01 pm | #

Phila,
Oh, poor Santa!
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:01 pm | #

So you better f*cking feal sorry for me you sack of shit!

MYOB

Thank you for that, brother. My night is, indeed, a cake walk compared to that. Best wishes and deepest sympathies.

If I were in your shoes I would be so hammered by now.
Johnny Vagabond | 12.18.04 - 11:01 pm | #

It occurred to me several years ago to ask myself; Do you actually know anyone with an IQ of 100? (yes I do).

I don't know my IQ.

I've taken those tests that you get spammed with on the web and got like 150 or something but I'm sure it's just bullshit to get you to buy stuff.
SWR | 12.18.04 - 11:02 pm | #

It's Saturday night and what are we doing? Hanging out at Atrios...

What do you mean "loser"? I'm building a model of the starship Enterprise.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:02 pm | #

It's Saturday night and what are we doing? Hanging out at Atrios...

By choice, man! I'm choosin' it!

Plus my girlfriend's seriously jetlagged...
Eli | 12.18.04 - 11:02 pm | #

EkCenTriK,

Well said.
Johnny Vagabond | 12.18.04 - 11:03 pm | #

Incog,

You need a cookie, honey? Or just talking to your kitties?

Peace
bigvic | 12.18.04 - 11:03 pm | #

What do you mean "loser"? I'm building a model of the starship Enterprise.
Philalethes | Email | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:02 pm | #

-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

Guy probably just lost a Kirk vs. Picard debate so he's bitter at all the cool people.
SWR | 12.18.04 - 11:04 pm | #

What do you mean "loser"? I'm building a model of the starship Enterprise.

I nearly snorted wine out of my nose on that one.
Johnny Vagabond | 12.18.04 - 11:05 pm | #

Mine was so tough we used naval jelly instead of Johnson's baby shampoo, and our mothers wiped us with sandpaper. The "animal crackers" we got were shards of deer vertebrae. If I wanted dinner, I had to fight the raccoon for it. When Santa came down the chimney, we'd hogtie him and jerk off onto his beard.

Two words:

Refried diapers.
Thersites | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:05 pm | #

Incognito, hang in there. I'm sending positive energy your way.
Vicki Stein

I was just trying to stir things up and make it a little edgy here which I've done. I know I shouldn't, but it's funny to me.

I'll behave for the rest of the night.
Incognito | 12.18.04 - 11:06 pm | #

Eli,

I can relate. I'm already tired of all the parties and family obligations. I'm happy in my sweatshirt and flannel pj pants. AKA fat pants in the bigvic house.
bigvic | 12.18.04 - 11:07 pm | #

translate for me: what's the difference between treacle and molasses?

'Black treacle' = 'molasses', for most culinary translations. Molasses isn't quite the same, I've found, but works well enough. There's also 'golden treacle' or 'golden syrup' (for treacle tarts) which doesn't really have a US equivalent -- corn syrup is not a bloody substitute.

More here. And you can see them both (there's really only one variety of each) here.
pseudonymous in nc | 12.18.04 - 11:07 pm | #

What do you mean "loser"? I'm building a model of the starship Enterprise.

Probably just the NCC1701A.

Nerd.
Thersites | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:07 pm | #

Dammit to hell, I've sold so many of these for Apple that I could ask for commissions.

you would have gotten your spiffs if you'd bought Apple stock just a few months ago... I bought at $19 woo hoo! Can't wait to hear how their 4Q went.

And now for a little pun:

I used to live near an abbotoire. The room was nice but the view was offal.

/rim shot
renato | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:07 pm | #

renato

Bad ... very very very bad.
EkCenTriK | 12.18.04 - 11:09 pm | #

Guy probably just lost a Kirk vs. Picard debate so he's bitter at all the cool people.
SWR

As if! That's not a debate I'd lose. At least, not since I started carrying my index cards everywhere.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:10 pm | #

I was just trying to stir things up and make it a little edgy here which I've done. I know I shouldn't, but it's funny to me.
Incognito

Just for the record that's how I read it; I laughed first and then wondered if I was really bumming you out. Just wanted to double check.
Johnny Vagabond | 12.18.04 - 11:11 pm | #

(And for parkin, the choice between golden syrup and black treacle is the sort of thing that divides familes... though not as contentious as the recipe for sticky toffee pudding in Cumbria.)
pseudonymous in nc | 12.18.04 - 11:12 pm | #

Probably just the NCC1701A.

What do you mean "just"? You know of a better one?
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:16 pm | #

SWR,

Funny but true story. In 8th grade we were given an IQ test. I went to a Catholic school, so I dont' know if that was commonly done in most schools around here. They mailed the results to our parents.

I remember vividly the look on my moms face when she opened the envelope and her eyes bugged. I was scared I'd flunked it or something. She would not tell me my score but only said, "Oh my god, there is simply no excuse for you."

Who knows WTF that meant. My grades were average at the time, so I'm either performing well for being retarted, or smarter than I look.
bigvic | 12.18.04 - 11:17 pm | #

Philalethes

Okay you guys need to take over to here :http://www.culttvman.com/
EkCenTriK | 12.18.04 - 11:18 pm | #

Unfortunately, I'm coming painfully close to Incognito's opinion of this country. This election was not an aberration.

I just finished watching 5 HOURS of a show called 500 Nations on Discovery channel all about how we more than screwed over the Native Americans throughout our history. Its something that you know, of course, in the back of your head, but to be smacked in the face with 5 hours of it is overwhelming.

That and the fact that we intervened militarily in Central and South America over thirty! times before World War II. We can't keep our fingers out of anywhere in the world -- Vietnam, Cambodia -- and we seem to spoil everything we touch.

Oh, yeah, and Happy Holidays!
The Boss of You | 12.18.04 - 11:19 pm | #

Kirk vs. Picard?!?

Fuck that. Janeway's the shit.
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:19 pm | #

If anyone reading this happens to get a life in the near future, umm... can I borrow it? Just for a weekend.

This isn't a life?

I'm in Texas. I'd rather be here than OUT THERE. Although I could go for jumping into a mosh pit right about now. Haven't done that in a while. I'm 42 years old. Any time I can get my body up against a half-dressed 20 year old guy and not get in trouble for it, I'm taking it!
LJ | 12.18.04 - 11:19 pm | #

Boss o' Me,
We just saw an ad for a reality show called The Real Gilligan's Island. Wow.
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:20 pm | #

As if! That's not a debate I'd lose. At least, not since I started carrying my index cards everywhere.

You may need to loan me some ammo. My girlfriend's New Trek (kids these days), and I'm Old Trek. She keeps insisting that Picard was a much better captain 'cause he didn't always get the redshirts killed or screw the locals...

Granted, Kirk loses points for bad stunt doubles, but I gotta draw the line somewhere.
Eli | 12.18.04 - 11:21 pm | #

LJ--You sound like a woman after my own heart (but I'm too old for your tastes!)

It's been a while since I flung myself into a mosh pit, too...
rorschach | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:23 pm | #

I have only skimmed the thread, but it seems to me that filkertom is on his way to a Tony. However, I'm thinking that if he were to weave the Epic Limerick into the background, perhaps as a sort of Greek Chorus thing, he might be able to pull out a Pulitzer for it too...

Or not.

VStien, VickStein, VickieS, VStheInscrutable. I thought maybe I could help out, but I either need more chemical additives or more sleep... The phrase "Give it a rest" seems apropos.

I suggest that O'Lielly probably watched South Park: BLU one too many times. He thinks if he blames Canada he can get into a threesome with Saddam and Satan.
ATablaRasa | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:23 pm | #

"Mine was so tough we used naval jelly instead of Johnson's baby shampoo, and our mothers wiped us with sandpaper. The "animal crackers" we got were shards of deer vertebrae. If I wanted dinner, I had to fight the raccoon for it. When Santa came down the chimney, we'd hogtie him and jerk off onto his beard."

ROFLMAO!
Non Tibi Spiro | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:24 pm | #

Dman I have made two comments that haven't shown up. I can't figure out if it is Haloscan or did I drop them somewhere else.

I need more computers just to keep the blogs straight and the comments in place. At least that is what I am telling the wife.
EkCenTriK | 12.18.04 - 11:24 pm | #

She keeps insisting that Picard was a much better captain 'cause he didn't always get the redshirts killed or screw the locals...

Nonsense. You're talking about the twin pillars of Kirk's genius there.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:24 pm | #

I resisted the urge to start twitching like I had Tourette's. My mother would have taken a cane to me, pregnant or not, if I'd been that much of a smart-ass around one of her friends.

It's weird. I never noticed until my wife was pregnant how other people would feel so free to offer incredibly personal advice.

I wanted after a while to go find those bubblegum cigarettes, and ask NYMary to go sit in the mall and take a puff just to piss off the self-righteous strangers. She never would.

One of my favorite all time rock lyrics is from Guided By Voices: "We'll be smoking and pregnant, and so what?"

Hah! Now that's rock n' roll.
Thersites | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:24 pm | #

"Merry Fucking Christmas," said that fucker Bush:

... After a seven-year decline, the number of Americans on food stamps has shot up 39 percent since 2000, according to federal statistics. Every state, except Hawaii, has felt the impact. In Arizona, food stamp rolls have increased 104 percent, in Nevada, 97 percent; Oregon, 79 percent; South Carolina, 68 percent; Missouri, 65 percent.

Texas has added nearly a million people to its food stamp rolls in only four years.

Part of that increase was fueled by states' increased efforts to enroll a greater portion of people eligible for food stamps and the placement of people back onto the rolls who were knocked off during welfare reform. Most of it, however, social workers say, is the growing number of Americans unable to feed themselves without help.

"Clearly, most of this is because of increased need," said Carol Adams, head of the Illinois Department of Social Services. Illinois has seen a 31 percent increase in the number of people on food stamps since 2000.

Meanwhile, the nation's network of food banks and food pantries say they are under intense pressure to meet the demand of hungry families, nearly half of them working.

"We don't have enough hours in the day to serve everybody who comes in," said John Holmer, executive director of Metro Caring, a Denver food pantry that last year served 34,000 people, half of whom were children.

At the Circle of Concern in Valley Park, executive director Glen Koenen said that last month, the pantry served more than 1,200 families, far beyond the pantry's capacity of 750 it established two years ago.

America's Second Harvest, the nation's largest private network of food providers, served 23 million Americans in 2001, 6 million more than the federal food stamp program, according to an independent study.

With demand increasing at food pantries around the country as much as 10 percent, 20 percent, even 40 percent annually, the network is still probably serving more than the federal government, said Doug O'Brien, vice president for public policy and research for the organization.

The families come to the pantries for the same reasons as Gray. By the time they pay the bills - housing, utilities, gas, clothes, prescription drugs - there is little or no money left for food.

"It's hard, but when you have kids, you swallow your pride," said Gray, as she waited to see a counselor at Circle of Concern.

Meanwhile, the U.S. Department of Agriculture announced in November than 36.3 million Americans, more than one of every 10, is at risk of hunger. That figure was the highest number the agency has recorded since it began keeping a tally in 1995...
smarty jones | 12.18.04 - 11:25 pm | #

Eli:

Just tell them that no episode of New Trek will ever equal the fucking brilliance of City on the Edge of Forever. No how. No way.
LJ | 12.18.04 - 11:25 pm | #

One of my favorite all time rock lyrics is from Guided By Voices: "We'll be smoking and pregnant, and so what?"

Hah! Now that's rock n' roll.
Thersites | Email | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:24 pm | #

I saw them in Central Park. They really sucked.
SWR | 12.18.04 - 11:26 pm | #

SWR,
Click homepage & scroll down to "Cult of the Cult".
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:28 pm | #

LJ,

The women folks of my mother and grandmother's generation just LOVE to tell tales of eating raw chicken, smoking, having the worst hangovers of their lives etc. while pregnant. Naturally, *we* all turned out alright (so they say)so anything goes. They think all this fathers in the delivery room and "parenting" books is a load of tripe.
bigvic | 12.18.04 - 11:28 pm | #

Pardon the innuendo, but being a doozer among fraggles rocks!
Vicki Stein

My sediment exactly.

And as you can tell, I'm reading this thread in no perticular order, and with no great speed, less as a chatroom than a drive-by commenting related activity.
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.18.04 - 11:28 pm | #

Rorschach:

Hon, I don't discriminate about age. Young, old--if a guy is male and likes girls at all, I'll usually like him (I've gone as old as 64--when I was 21). It's just that it's a lot more difficult to find an opportunity for mosh-pit type opportunities with men not in their 20s.
LJ | 12.18.04 - 11:28 pm | #

So, TOS is Old Trek, TNG is New Trek, and Enterprise is Cherry Trek, but I can't figure out whether DS9 or Voyager are Diet Trek, Caffeine-Free Trek, or Vanilla Trek.

Maybe Caffeine-Free Trek for pre-7-Of-9 Voyager...
Eli | 12.18.04 - 11:28 pm | #

LJ,

I'm 37--right there with ya on the mosh pit, tho there are never as many 20 yr old gals as guys, dammit. I'm moving back to Austin this summer. Looking forward to it, tho not without *some* trepidation.
Johnny Vagabond | 12.18.04 - 11:28 pm | #

I saw them in Central Park. They really sucked.
SWR

I nsaw 'em a few years back...a couple of songs' worth, anyhow, 'cause some friends were opening. Sounded like mid-period Who to me...they didn't suck, but like Miles Davis, they kind of blew.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:29 pm | #

And Vicki? I think yer shift key has a crumb of pizza crust stuck under it...or maybe a spider, or something.
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.18.04 - 11:30 pm | #

But it was the crowd that struck me as truly odd. The first time I saw GBV, the place was full of true believers, people walking around in t-shirts that read "Pollard's Bitch" and knew all the words to all the songs: the energy in the room was truly amazing. This time, no. The energy of the crowd seemed awkward and strange this time, like everyone was just going through the motions. There were a lot of people there, but many of them didn't stay to the end. Many were very tall, and very beautiful, budging regularly in front of your humble narrator, oblivious to my 5'2" self. Lots of people were also taking pictures with their cell phones. Security was tight (we got yelled at for going up to look at Doug Gillard's effects pedals from the house). And I've never seen a house clear out so fast. (Or so many Brooklyn Lager cans at once.)

OK. You're a fan. Sorry. Not saying they're not good, just that they sucked in Central Park when I saw them.
SWR | 12.18.04 - 11:30 pm | #

Or rather, no opportunities that won't have me in divorce court (again).
LJ | 12.18.04 - 11:30 pm | #

if a guy is male and likes girls at all, I'll usually like him

Well, I'm halfway there...
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:30 pm | #

When I was a kid, I was so cool I was accepted as an equal on the bridge even though I was an annoying kid who was just the ship's doctor's son. Never mind she was a hot redhead. I was so FREAKING tough they had to write me out of the series by making me some idiotic demigod or some shit like that.
Thersites | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:30 pm | #

MYOB,
How do I get invited to your house? That sounds fun, unless, of course, you're the guy in question. But I'll bet the women are having a hell of a time.
NYMary | Email | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 10:59 pm | #

I thought my cleaning vomit days were over once my kids got older.
Not tonite.
151 proof cannot be watered down no matter how much kool aid you mix in.
Sheesh!

MYOB'
.
MYOB | 12.18.04 - 11:31 pm | #

like that mad skit where parents show three kids old movies with mom smoking and martini in hand, no seat belts of helmets,etc. hilarious!
waiting | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:31 pm | #

SWR,
We're fans, but I believe you completely.
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:31 pm | #

Well, I'm halfway there...

Oh-oooooh? You're livin' on a prayer?
Thersites | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:32 pm | #

I'm 42 years old. Any time I can get my body up against a half-dressed 20 year old guy and not get in trouble for it, I'm taking it!
LJ

I'm closing up on you in age. Recently, here at work, one of those came in helping his dad. He was so strong and able but totally clueless and I thought, wow, I was like that once, too. And then my heart ached because that's exactly what the Army wants for those very reasons and that's who's fighting and dying in Iraq right now.
Incognito | 12.18.04 - 11:32 pm | #

SWR,
We're fans, but I believe you completely.
NYMary | Email | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:31 pm | #

Sometimes I think that the better the musician the more shows they do that suck.

An innovative musician will try out new stuff and new acts in a concert and they won't always work.

A hack will just keep putting on the same shows time after time.
SWR | 12.18.04 - 11:33 pm | #

So Mary and Thersites...how does this work? Are you in separate rooms? Are you taking turns? Do you sit next to each other with laptops? Do tell!
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:33 pm | #

Just tell them that no episode of New Trek will ever equal the fucking brilliance of City on the Edge of Forever.

That was the series that Harlen Ellison wrote the screenplay for, wasn't it? I heard that he hated their production of it so much that he insisted on using his pseudonym, which was "Cordwainer Bird" or something equally silly.
Johnny Vagabond | 12.18.04 - 11:34 pm | #

Just tell them that no episode of New Trek will ever equal the fucking brilliance of City on the Edge of Forever.

Personally, I like Piece Of The Action and I, Mudd. I also liked the DS9 episode where they went back to the Tribbles episode, and Whorf was very embarrassed by the weedy Klingons and would only say that it was a bad time in their history, and refused to elaborate...

35 here, and I may just have to look you up if the relationship doesn't survive this fundamental incompatibility.
Eli | 12.18.04 - 11:34 pm | #

SWR,
We're fans, but I believe you completely.
NYMary | Email | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:31 pm | #

I don't know if you remember the show. But I saw them in Central Park in 1997 I think at a free show. They were playing with Sleater Kinney (who really sucked too). In fact, everybody who played at that concert really sucked.

It must have been me. They didn't want me to show up at any more of their shows.
SWR | 12.18.04 - 11:34 pm | #

? My girlfriend's New Trek (kids these days), and I'm Old Trek.

Is the 21st Century May-December Romance?
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.18.04 - 11:34 pm | #

But it's not so bad. A young man loves being a warrior with other young men especially if he lives long enough to relive those experiences in his mind.
Incognito | 12.18.04 - 11:35 pm | #

Wow, I just had a great new idea: Laptop dances! You sign up, some gal does a lapdance in front of a camera, and it streams to your laptop in real time! New hope for the wretched!
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:35 pm | #

I know a woman who smoked through her entire pregnancy and gave birth to a 10 lb. baby.

No, seriously. I figured if she hadn't smoked, she would've given birth to an adult, like Athena springing full grown from Zeus' head. Only not from my friend's head. Well, you know what I mean.

Hello, all. Just back from yet ANOTHER freakin' holiday party. I've given up smiling and making small talk for the New Year.
watertiger | 12.18.04 - 11:35 pm | #

I saw them in Central Park. They really sucked.

Yeah, I heard that show bit. Oh well. You grab your magic where you can find it.
Thersites | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:36 pm | #

I'm closing up on you in age.

That's quite a trick.

Anyway, I recently chaired a panel at a conference where one presenter made a very convincing case that DS9 is the most politically mature and complex Trek series...
rorschach | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:36 pm | #

Phila,
1. cable modem
2. wireless hub
3. matching laptops (no kidding) with wireless cards.

Thers is on the couch watching football, I'm in the comfy chair exchanging mp3s with geeks like myself.

Oh, and we're talking to you guys.
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:36 pm | #

They were playing with Sleater Kinney (who really sucked too).

I saw two songs by them, too, at some street fair. I agree with you.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:36 pm | #

If I were in your shoes I would be so hammered by now.
Johnny Vagabond | Email | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:01 pm | #

Designated driver duty means nothing but Pepsi, cheetos, and a football game on ESPN of which I've already missed half.

So far they've been good sports as only one has needed help getting home, only had to go about 10 miles to walk them to their door, and only spewed chunks in the bathroom.
But since I shower in that very same tub it's not going to leave a very pleasant memory tomorrow.

MYOB'
.
MYOB | 12.18.04 - 11:38 pm | #

Oh-oooooh? You're livin' on a prayer?

Or, as we liked to sing:

"Teasing up our hair..."
watertiger | 12.18.04 - 11:38 pm | #

Oh, and we're talking to you guys.
NYMary | Email | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:36 pm | #

Just looked at your blog profile. Thought you were in NYC. You meant upstate. I must have seemed strange just mentioning a concert in Central Park as if you had known about it.
SWR | 12.18.04 - 11:38 pm | #

Thers is on the couch watching football,

WTF? It's 12:30 out there!
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:39 pm | #

So Mary and Thersites...how does this work? Are you in separate rooms? Are you taking turns? Do you sit next to each other with laptops? Do tell!

Uh... it's all cool.

RUN RUN RUN! THEY'RE ONTO US!
Thersites | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:39 pm | #

Something bad's happened: It was a black man, or a middle-eastern looing person!

Of course a sloider wearing an Iraqi Freedom t-shirt was beaten up by an
anti-war madman!
A. Pig | 12.18.04 - 11:39 pm | #

It's our job to worry about them.
Incognito | 12.18.04 - 11:39 pm | #

Wow, I just had a great new idea: Laptop dances! You sign up, some gal does a lapdance in front of a camera, and it streams to your laptop in real time! New hope for the wretched!

I wonder if the city of San Antonio would try to determine how much space you needed between posts or words to perform your laptop dances, given that we now have an ordinance requiring 3 ft separation between a stripper and patron. I call them toe dances now.
LJ | 12.18.04 - 11:40 pm | #

psssst! SWR! Thers is a city boy who regards his exile in the colonies (for love of moi) a temporary excursion. In fact, he was in NYC to see Mother Thersites today and.... brought back a pizza.
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:41 pm | #

Phila,

Thersites is watching Australian Rules Football.
watertiger | 12.18.04 - 11:41 pm | #

Of course a sloider wearing an Iraqi Freedom t-shirt was beaten up by an
anti-war madman!
A. Pig | Email | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:39 pm | #

Having seen both soldiers and anti-war protesters, I have a hard time imagining that there are that many Marines who let themselves get beaten up by that many hippies.

It just doesn't make sense. It's like the Startrek Fan Club beating up the football team.
SWR | 12.18.04 - 11:42 pm | #

Designated driver duty means nothing but Pepsi, cheetos, and a football game on ESPN of which I've already missed half.

Dude...

That sucks. I mean that really sucks.

As for the Kirk/Picard debate, I'd like to point out that Kirk was man enough to wear a girdle.

I'm not sure where I was going with that...
Johnny Vagabond | 12.18.04 - 11:42 pm | #

That was the series that Harlen Ellison wrote the screenplay for, wasn't it? I heard that he hated their production of it so much that he insisted on using his pseudonym, which was "Cordwainer Bird" or something equally silly.
Johnny Vagabond

I read somewhere the Cordwainer Bird thing was from The Starlost series, which he wrote for, but hated, and had his name removed from, substituting that one. I know he hated CE3K, but I never heard of him dissing Trek. Wouldn't put it past him, though; he did--and does--Have Views on lots of SF productions..
"Pillsbury Doughboy", indeed! Bite me, Harlan.
Still wish they'da used your I Robot script, though...
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.18.04 - 11:42 pm | #

I call them toe dances now.
LJ

Gah. The whole subject makes me ill. I actually dated a virtuoso in that sphere of the terpsichorean arts. What a fucking nightmare that was.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:42 pm | #

Phila:

What part are you halfway too--liking girls or being male? Just curious.
LJ | 12.18.04 - 11:42 pm | #

In fact, he was in NYC to see Mother Thersites today and.... brought back a pizza.

Ray's, Original Ray's, The Original Ray's, Ray's Original, or The Real Original Ray's?
watertiger | 12.18.04 - 11:42 pm | #

Or, rather, "to."
LJ | 12.18.04 - 11:43 pm | #

Phila,
Thersites is gifted: he can find football in some form any time of day, any day of the year. That's his *real* superpower.
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:43 pm | #

"DS9 is the most politically mature and complex Trek series..."

I had to translate a couple episodes (and edit most of the series) for Belgian tv. The Ferengi intrigued me tremendously.

They were greedy, but since it was in their nature to be greedy and profit-minded it would be wrong to condemn them. A Ferengi needs profit like a fish needs water.

Very complex issue all by itself.
Non Tibi Spiro | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:44 pm | #

As for the Kirk/Picard debate, I'd like to point out that Kirk was man enough to wear a girdle.

And Picard was man enough not to wear a rug...
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.18.04 - 11:44 pm | #

I'd like to point out that Kirk was man enough to wear a girdle.

I could never understand why his stomach was always up around his chest.
watertiger | 12.18.04 - 11:44 pm | #

given that we now have an ordinance requiring 3 ft separation between a stripper and patron. I call them toe dances now.

Next year they'll have to wear HazMat suits.
Johnny Vagabond | 12.18.04 - 11:44 pm | #

watertiger,
It was Queens pizza, not that high-falutin' Manhattan shit you eat!
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:45 pm | #

Johnny:

Um, no. The latest, and I'm not kidding, is that they'll require exotic dancers to wear a permit.

Of course I asked the obvious: WHERE will they wear them?
LJ | 12.18.04 - 11:45 pm | #

In fact, he was in NYC to see Mother Thersites today and.... brought back a pizza.

I picture her as something between Whistler's mother and the protagonist of Beckett's "Ill Seen, Ill Said."

Brought back a pizza, though? That's...what...a 4-5 hour drive on a good day.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:45 pm | #

First white/black kiss on network television. Enough power to resurrect the series through how many movies and spin-offs? Enough sterotypes generated to match Casablanca! And "no Tribble atall" -- which none of the New crew could have pulled off.
ATablaRasa | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:45 pm | #

It's like the Startrek Fan Club beating up the football team.

Ohjeez, now I've got wood.
Eli | 12.18.04 - 11:45 pm | #

It was Queens pizza, not that high-falutin' Manhattan shit you eat!
NYMary

I don't know if I'd call Two Boots high-falutin'. Unless you like your pizza with dyed pubic hair on it.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:47 pm | #

Phila,
Nah. 3, 3:30. Without traffic.
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:47 pm | #

SWR,
you'll have to excuse my rather energetic engagement with you earlier. I had a couple handfuls of chocolate covered coffee beans this afternoon. I must confess to having been a bit uptight myself. Nevertheless, during debate, I still prefer to be quoted with whole conceptual structures intact.
Visual Politics | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:47 pm | #

It is the Carolina / Atlanta game. And it's a good one.

And the guy watching the NFL game is being ragged by the Star Trek fans.

Ooh, Atlanta just put in Jesus. This'll be good. Carolina counters by subbing in Moses.
Thersites | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:47 pm | #

There were a lot of people there, but many of them didn't stay to the end. Many were very tall, and very beautiful, budging regularly in front of your humble narrator, oblivious to my 5'2" self. Lots of people were also taking pictures with their cell phones. Security was tight (we got yelled at for going up to look at Doug Gillard's effects pedals from the house). And I've never seen a house clear out so fast. (Or so many Brooklyn Lager cans at once.)

Don't you hate going to concerts at smallish New York types of clubs and trying to listen to some type of vaguely leftish/anti-authoritarian type of alternative music with burly security guards from Jersey hovering over you. It kind of spoils the mood.
SWR | 12.18.04 - 11:48 pm | #

Of course I asked the obvious: WHERE will they wear them?

Can they make the permits, um, V-shaped?
Eli | 12.18.04 - 11:48 pm | #

SWR,
you'll have to excuse my rather energetic engagement with you earlier.

Don't worry about it. I'm an asshole. It's half the reason I spend time online. It gives me an outlet to be an asshole without getting my ass kicked.
SWR | 12.18.04 - 11:49 pm | #

i think i'm the only person on planet who has never watched more than 10 minutes of star trek in my life.
waiting | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:49 pm | #

It was Queens pizza, not that high-falutin' Manhattan shit you eat!

(public rebuke - hangs head in shame for living on an overcrowded, overpriced, overtargeted island)

Sicilian? With pepperoni?

I haven't had dinner, just freakin' canapes. I'm hungry.
watertiger | 12.18.04 - 11:49 pm | #

The latest, and I'm not kidding, is that they'll require exotic dancers to wear a permit.

Of course I asked the obvious: WHERE will they wear them?

I read about that, and it's just bloody evil. I mean, what stripper wants her clientele knowing her real name?

It's just asking for stalking, even rape...
rorschach | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:49 pm | #

Next year they'll have to wear HazMat suits.
Johnny Vagabond

I think they should blind patrons with quicklime and wrap barbed wire around their chests, a la Hazel Motes.

Failing that, they could always take out some duct tape and strap Ol' Yeller to the patron's thigh for the duration.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:49 pm | #

Eli:

Since our dancers can no longer be fully nude, I'm guessing they'll have to hang the permit from their thongs. Or...whatever they'll have left.

It does raise the question of determining if a permit is legit or not. I mean...Wouldn't you need to be closer than 3 ft. to "make sure?"
LJ | 12.18.04 - 11:50 pm | #

rorschach: Anyway, I recently chaired a panel at a conference where one presenter made a very convincing case that DS9 is the most politically mature and complex Trek series...

I'd have to agree. Best episode was the one where Sisko agreed to let Garak help him manufacture some evidence that the Dominion was going to attack the Romulans, as a ruse to bring the Romulans into the war on the Federation's side. Nice twists.
.
Jeffraham Prestonian | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:50 pm | #

And Picard was man enough not to wear a rug...

What is it on ST--TNG, the twenty-sixth century and still no cure for baldness?

I've never unnderstood people who complain about bad acting on ST; maybe after 500 years or so of television that's how everyone will speak and make faces.
Draco | 12.18.04 - 11:51 pm | #

Rorscach:

Good point. Maybe the city will let them use a stage name on the permit, but I doubt it.
LJ | 12.18.04 - 11:51 pm | #

filkertom - I smell Tony!
mag | Email | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 9:43 pm | #

Hey! I took a shower!

Uncle Tony | 12.18.04 - 11:52 pm | #

Doozer,

Re: Harlan, you're right. That's what I get for typing without visiting google first.

And as for Picard ever wearing a rug, I can only say hallelujah. We need more baldies in media.

And yes, I am nearly bald myself. Full disclosure and all.
Johnny Vagabond | 12.18.04 - 11:52 pm | #

I don't know if I'd call Two Boots high-falutin'. Unless you like your pizza with dyed pubic hair on it.

(gets up, goes to kitchen, rummages through cabinet, finds basket with take-out menus, leafs through multitudes of ethnic cuisines, finds Two Boots menu, sets fire to it)
watertiger | 12.18.04 - 11:52 pm | #

Good point. Maybe the city will let them use a stage name on the permit, but I doubt it.
LJ

If not, that's a real problem.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:52 pm | #

Wouldn't you need to be closer than 3 ft. to "make sure?"

I'm willing to do whatever it takes. No sacrifice is too great.
Eli | 12.18.04 - 11:52 pm | #

BUSH will EAt himSelF

http://tinyurl.com/4un23
On War
By Chris Hedges

We are losing the war in Iraq. There has been a steady increase in the assaults carried out by the insurgents against coalition forces. The attacks over the past year have risen from about twenty a day to approximately 120. We are an isolated and reviled nation. We are tyrants to others weaker than ourselves. We have lost sight of our democratic ideals. Thucydides wrote of Athens' expanding empire and how this empire led it to become a tyrant abroad and then a tyrant at home. The tyranny Athens imposed on others it finally imposed on itself. If we do not confront our hubris and the lies told to justify the killing and mask the destruction carried out in our name in Iraq, if we do not grasp the moral corrosiveness of empire and occupation, if we continue to allow force and violence to be our primary form of communication, we will not so much defeat dictators like Saddam Hussein as become them.
MeToo | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:52 pm | #

ever=Never
Johnny Vagabond | 12.18.04 - 11:52 pm | #

It's nice to have a place where brains rule over braun. The internet is one big nerd liberation conspiracy. I can't get enough of it.
Visual Politics | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:53 pm | #

The GBV NYC CP show famously sucked because Bob was fighting with the band, except for Gilliard. My MOM was having SURGERY and my FIVE YEAR OLD SON wanted PIZZA from the pizza place near Grandma's house because he was afraid GRANDMA WOULD DIE because she was in THE HOSPITAL. I am only watching football because THE BABY JESUS WANTS ME TO.

Sniff.
Thersites | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:54 pm | #

Doozer, is being a fraggle a bad thing?
fourlegsgood

No.
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.18.04 - 11:54 pm | #

I don't know if I'd call Two Boots high-falutin'. Unless you like your pizza with dyed pubic hair on it.

Out here in SF, you have to pay extra for that.
Johnny Vagabond | 12.18.04 - 11:54 pm | #

RUN RUN RUN! THEY'RE ONTO US!

Heh. Mr. and Mrs. Bigvic also have dueling laptops. Sometimes we surf side by side, which I like best, but sometimes I get irritated when Mr. bigvic tells me to stop laughing so hard he can't think. That would usually be when Konopelli is raving or bebe rebozo is telling Liddy Dole fart jokes.
bigvic | 12.18.04 - 11:55 pm | #

MeToo

Yep, the days of passing out candy bars, cans of spam and nylons is long over.
EkCenTriK | 12.18.04 - 11:56 pm | #

It's nice to have a place where brains rule over braun.

Shut up ya fuckin' sissy-boy, or I'll break your fuckin' pencil neck.

Just tidding! Now, let's talk about how the ways in which Internet does or doesn't instantiate C.S. Peirce's concept of Thirdness.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:56 pm | #

Should also mention that this is the second time I've read Thucydides' name today. I've also bee reading the new Bob Dylan autobiography, and the mighty Dylan mentions Thucydides early on.

Suppose I've got some classics to reread.
MeToo | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:56 pm | #

Good point. Maybe the city will let them use a stage name on the permit, but I doubt it.
LJ

If not, that's a real problem.

From what I've read, nope. It's their real names. The whole thing is just an attack to try to shut the places down.
rorschach | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:56 pm | #

NYMary,

You'd be a hipster, but you're too smart.
watertiger | 12.18.04 - 11:56 pm | #

Kidding, not tidding. Though I'm willing to tid, if needs be.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:56 pm | #

(Mother Thersites is not in mortal danger, and only a little Beckettian.) But it's true that the kid requested pizza.
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:57 pm | #

SWR,
I'll tell you this much: I've heard a lot more bands than I've seen. I like Maxwell's in Hoboken: it has a step built in. I was once yelled at for standing on a chair at Warsaw. (I'd be a hipster, but I'm too short.)
NYMary | Email | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:54 pm | #

I kind of like The Bowery Ballroom. The security's not too oppressive and it's pretty small and intimate.

Irving Plaza is horrible.

I've never undestood why they don't let you take photos at concerts. I understand why the typical musician would want to control his/her image but people just wind up taking crappy looking photos with cell phones and posting them on the web anyway.
SWR | 12.18.04 - 11:57 pm | #

metoo- if only my brain could think as coherently! and notice how everyone is jumping on the wagon lately to blame rumsfeld? i was trying to explain to my foreign born boyfriend today about general custer and damn if it didn't lead to iraq similarities.
waiting | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:57 pm | #

watertiger,
Thanks! But I know that I'd make the scene in more style at 5'10".
NYMary | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:58 pm | #

The best way I've heard it put was this: "You know how dumb the average guy is, right? Well, if consider the definition of the word average you realize that half of them are dumber than that."

We need to stop worrying about people's stupidity and start worrying about the misinformation that's being used to manipulate these poor people. There'll always be a "natural aristocracy" of intelligentsia and a lower class of lesser minds. We need to end the psychological alienation and get these less gifted masses on the right path. That means not taking so much satisfaction in your cognitive skills and looking eye-to-eye with the average folks.
Visual Politics | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:59 pm | #

I don't know if I'd call Two Boots high-falutin'. Unless you like your pizza with dyed pubic hair on it.

Um...was it magenta? Sorry, that was my bad.
watertiger | 12.18.04 - 11:59 pm | #

You'd be a hipster, but you're too smart.

But she's too hip to be a smartster.

Ochone!
Thersites | Homepage | 12.18.04 - 11:59 pm | #

bigvic,
Who is Mister bigvic? Do tell!
NYMary | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:00 am | #

From what I've read, nope. It's their real names.

That is pretty bad. They really would need to be able to conceal those.

I foresee an explosion of... Merkin Madness!!!

Okay, I'm getting dizzy, need to have a lie-down...
Eli | 12.19.04 - 12:00 am | #

Um, no. The latest, and I'm not kidding, is that they'll require exotic dancers to wear a permit.
Of course I asked the obvious: WHERE will they wear them?

Yeah, I'm having a hard time following the logic behind that. I read about it the other day and caught myself thinking "Are ya SURE ya wanna move back?"
Johnny Vagabond | 12.19.04 - 12:00 am | #

The security's not too oppressive and it's pretty small and intimate.

When I was younger, I went to see Billy Goat at a club in Little Rock, and security was so obnoxious in preventing moshing that the band waved for the whole crowd to just sit on the floor in protest, and we did. The security guards' expressions were well worth it (and the moshing resumed soon, regardless of the ejections).
rorschach | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:00 am | #

I kind of like The Bowery Ballroom. The security's not too oppressive and it's pretty small and intimate.

Pretty hard to deal with when it's crowded, however. But still better than that sardine-can known as the Knitting Factory. Maxwell's is OK, though...one of the few clubs where they actually feed musicians reasonably well, too.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:00 am | #

Rorschach:

Agreed on the motive. I don't know what's fueling this. San Antonio is usually laid back about most things.

If these people really wanted to go after something, why not after the sex clubs? And they do exist.

Maybe the problem was when places like All-Stars moved into the "nice" part of town, with a spiffy building that's modern and spacious. If you didn't know what it was, you'd think it was an investment company's headquarters.
LJ | 12.19.04 - 12:02 am | #

I was once yelled at for standing on a chair at Warsaw. (I'd be a hipster, but I'm too short.)

Don't you know you're supposed to be on some guy's shoulders with your top off?
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:02 am | #

Now, *this* is a thread where Iron Fist would actually be able to make a positive contribution, what with his keen insight into the stripper community.
Eli | 12.19.04 - 12:03 am | #

Every war is similar, no? Just like every misery or suffering is wrong and if not a lesson, in the buddhist sense, at least a preventable choice for the future.

What Dylan mentioned too, was that when Alexander the Great conquered Persia, his warriors married the local women thereby creating a secure society which would not be interested in revenge.

Democracy was never won at the end of a barrel of a gun. I've been saying this for years already.
MeToo | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:03 am | #

rorschach: Anyway, I recently chaired a panel at a conference where one presenter made a very convincing case that DS9 is the most politically mature and complex Trek series...

I'd have to agree. Best episode was the one where Sisko agreed to let Garak help him manufacture some evidence that the Dominion was going to attack the Romulans, as a ruse to bring the Romulans into the war on the Federation's side. Nice twists.

That was a good one.

The paper's point was that the other Star Trek series are based on a ship, so the nice, liberal, humanist Federation can come in, intervene in a moral and righteous manner, and then head off on their next benevolent mission.

DS9, on the other hand, is a space station, meaning the crew have to deal with the consequences of their actions, and so the series has to be more complex and serious. More mature in a lot of ways.
rorschach | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:03 am | #

The security guards' expressions were well worth it (and the moshing resumed soon, regardless of the ejections).

Ahhh, did I ever mention that I saw the Clash at Bond's, this club in Herald Square (used to be a men's clothing store). The fire marshals shut the show down because 25 people at the front of the stage fainted from the crush of bodies.

Those were good times...
watertiger | 12.19.04 - 12:04 am | #

waiting

While there are a lot of reasons why, I still think the take Rumsfeld down process is an indication of the handwriting on the wall. One thing I am now convinced of is the average politician is into job security. If I am right, Bush is just about to lose his general support on the Republican side. Surely they are smart enough to see that with the train wrecks in process and being proposed, Bush could be a one man wrecking crew for the Republican party. It is a case of gambling big, and they are watching the dice hit snake eyes over and over again. The moderates manage their money and take reasonable bets, but a lot of these folks are playing the hardway bets with this last election and guess what, it ain't working. So I expect them to slowly divest themselves of their attachment to Bush and his Rovian disciples. They may be sycophants, but they ain't stupid.
EkCenTriK | 12.19.04 - 12:04 am | #

The internet is one big nerd liberation conspiracy. I can't get enough of it.
Visual Politics |

Dear, you didn't get the memo from Great leader. I must question your intelligence since you didn't know that it is The InternetS.

And BTW, this is like going to a party or dinner with your real life friends without spending money or getting dresses up.
bigvic | 12.19.04 - 12:04 am | #

If these people really wanted to go after something, why not after the sex clubs? And they do exist.

If SA's like everywhere else, it's probably because if they busted a sex club they'd find half of City Hall in shackles, and the other half sporting strap-ons.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:04 am | #

It's nice to have a place where brains rule over braun.

You sayin' I'm a pussy?! Huh??! Are ya??!!

It's cool if ya are; I was just checking
Johnny Vagabond | 12.19.04 - 12:05 am | #

Maxwell's is OK, though...one of the few clubs where they actually feed musicians reasonably well, too.

Hmmm... that dates you till a point after which Maxwell's started serving edible food.

God I used to love Maxwell's.
Thersites | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:06 am | #

Maxwell's is OK, though...one of the few clubs where they actually feed musicians reasonably well, too.
Philalethes | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:00 am | #

Musicians aren't supposed to eat. They're supposed to look fashionably wasted and take lots of drugs.
SWR | 12.19.04 - 12:07 am | #

DS9, on the other hand, is a space station, meaning the crew have to deal with the consequences of their actions, and so the series has to be more complex and serious. More mature in a lot of ways.

Okay, so what happens when somebody lobs a "Babylon 5" grenade into this conversation?
watertiger | 12.19.04 - 12:07 am | #

"I must question your intelligence since you didn't know that it is The InternetS."

touche
Visual Politics | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:07 am | #

Rorschach:

I wrote to to Verizon that I would never go to a concert there again if they had a Security Nazi like the one we had at the Korn concert. He was so gung-ho, running after people if they lit up a cigarette or stepped one mm into the aisle that he was a frickin' distraction to the concert. And the bands couldn't see what was going on, so they had no idea.

Although we did almost have a riot when some kids were mudsliding down the lawn section and security went after them. Whole venue started chanting "Let them go!" Awesome moment.
LJ | 12.19.04 - 12:08 am | #

Don't you know you're supposed to be on some guy's shoulders with your top off?

We tried that, but people left and right would be knocked cold in three chord's time from the whiplash action. And that was hardly sporting.
Thersites | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:08 am | #

Hmmm... that dates you till a point after which Maxwell's started serving edible food.

My praise for the food was extremely context-dependent. A month on the road, and Maxwell's at its worst will seem like haute cuisine.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:08 am | #

"If SA's like everywhere else, it's probably because if they busted a sex club they'd find half of City Hall in shackles, and the other half sporting strap-ons.
Philalethes"

Damn this city isn't that progressive. Its more graft, incompetency and cronyism.

Well we did have Bernardo Uresti years ago, but that was a long long time ago.
EkCenTriK | 12.19.04 - 12:08 am | #

Musicians aren't supposed to eat.

I'm always the last to know!
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:09 am | #

Course they could be going to Austin for that sort of thing. Hmmm hadn't thought about that.
EkCenTriK | 12.19.04 - 12:09 am | #

NYMary,

Mr. Bigvic doesnt' post here but he loves reading (and spying) the comments. Damn. Wish he'd get with it. I could seriously dog him.
bigvic | 12.19.04 - 12:11 am | #

watertiger,
I was once almost crushed to eath between A Flock of Seagulls and The Go-go's.

Well, no, by the crowd, between their sets. But still, what an ignominious end!
NYMary | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:12 am | #

Okay, so what happens when somebody lobs a "Babylon 5" grenade into this conversation?

Mmm... Babylon 5...

Writing could be a bit clunky, but those were some seriously epic story arcs. And I liked the Zathrases.
Eli | 12.19.04 - 12:12 am | #

We need to stop worrying about people's stupidity and start worrying about the misinformation that's being used to manipulate these poor people.

That is a good point. Again, I was (mostly) kidding. But it is far too easy to succumb to labelling and name-calling. We call them "right-wing morons"; they call us "liberal morons", etc. And if no one ever gets out of that mindset, we'll never accomplish anything.
Johnny Vagabond | 12.19.04 - 12:13 am | #

Okay, so what happens when somebody lobs a "Babylon 5" grenade into this conversation?
watertiger

My dad compares the kill ratio of the Centauri and the Narn to the kill ratio of the 4 civilian contractors that got wasted in fallujah to the hundreds killed by our military in retaliation.
Visual Politics | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:13 am | #

bigvic,
Lucky you. Wish mine was so restrained.....

Hi, Mr. bigvic! C'mon in! The water's fine!
NYMary | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:14 am | #

Babylon 5 was genius, but you had to constantly follow it to see what was going on. Something I couldn't do with any frequency. DS9 was about the same. If you can't stay up with it, it left you behind.
EkCenTriK | 12.19.04 - 12:14 am | #

Wish he'd get with it. I could seriously dog him.

Repeat after me: "Mr. bigvic, you ignorant slut..."
Eli | 12.19.04 - 12:14 am | #

Well, no, by the crowd, between their sets. But still, what an ignominious end!
NYMary

With AFOS in tha muthafuckin house, I'd say the greater danger was ignitible hairspray fumes.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:14 am | #

watertiger,
I was once almost crushed to eath between A Flock of Seagulls and The Go-go's.

Well, no, by the crowd, between their sets. But still, what an ignominious end!
NYMary | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:12 am | #

-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

I got drunk and obnoxious and came close to getting beaten up at a Mazzy Star/Jesus and Mary Chain concert.

Top that.
SWR | 12.19.04 - 12:14 am | #

Phila:

Heh. You're probably right. Or [shudder] it would probably be full of wingnuts. I guess I have to amend my if you're male, and like females to read if you're a non-wingnut male, and etc. Because I'd rather do without than do a wingnut.
LJ | 12.19.04 - 12:15 am | #

When I say "hundreds", i'm only refering to the official estimated casualties of the *first* Falluja invasion. It's obviously many thousands of casualties by now.
Visual Politics | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:15 am | #

Well, SWR, I'm old. So this was still close enough to Cincinnati to be scary.
NYMary | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:16 am | #

We need to stop worrying about people's stupidity and start worrying about the misinformation that's being used to manipulate these poor people.

In other words, help the poor stupid people instead of making fun of them.

I don't know. I don't think most Americans are stupid. I think they're racist and downright mean.

Nobody manipulated them into going into Iraq. They wanted to.
SWR | 12.19.04 - 12:16 am | #

Was Farscape as crap as it looked?
Eli | 12.19.04 - 12:17 am | #

My praise for the food was extremely context-dependent. A month on the road, and Maxwell's at its worst will seem like haute cuisine.

Ok. But Hoboken went through rapid gentification in the mid-to-late 1990s. You don't pay the bills by feeding loser alternadregs, so they added a decent menu and misrobrewery shite, and withstood the storm of prosperity.

Man, getting wasted with former AOD members there... helping Greg Demos down the stairs... Jeff McDonald's socks...

Sigh.
Thersites | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:17 am | #

EkC:

Hate to break it to you, but we DO have sex clubs here in SA. I have a standing invitation to one. Too bad the guy who invited me is a wingnut. Still trying to figure out why he thinks I'll do him after I told him I couldn't do a guy whose brain was smaller than his dick.
LJ | 12.19.04 - 12:17 am | #

gotta go but i like coming to the table every once in a while to share thoughts of every kind. it does feel like family. just wish i had some gingerbread...
waiting | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:17 am | #

I went to a Cramps concert in New Orleans after an evening drinking whiskey and driving the train full of kids all around the Audubon Zoo.

And I tripped acid at a Dead concert on Halloween in London, and afterwards wandered the streets, falling in with a crowd of people who'd just performed the Rocky Horror Picture Show onstage...

Good times.
rorschach | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:18 am | #

We need to stop worrying about people's stupidity and start worrying about the misinformation that's being used to manipulate these poor people.

I think that's pretty much a daily topic of conversation around here. There are a few people here who seem to beleive the problem boils down to the "stupidity" of Americans, but I think they're a minority.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:18 am | #

Believe, that is.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:19 am | #

I got drunk and obnoxious and came close to getting beaten up at a Mazzy Star/Jesus and Mary Chain concert.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Eli | 12.19.04 - 12:19 am | #

We call them "right-wing morons"; they call us "liberal morons", etc. And if no one ever gets out of that mindset, we'll never accomplish anything.
Johnny Vagabond

Sometimes I feel like they're well aware that we're smarter, we are the creative, cognitive elite and they hate us for it. Emotions overpower reason every time when people's identity issues come into play.
Visual Politics | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:19 am | #

*ahem*

Sorry.

I mean, um, that's just terrible. Those hooligans.
Eli | 12.19.04 - 12:20 am | #

I got drunk and obnoxious and came close to getting beaten up at a Mazzy Star/Jesus and Mary Chain concert.

My first concert ever was the Plasmatics opening up for Kiss. Wendy O cut a guitar in half with a chain saw and threw it into the crowd, hitting a guy standing about 3 feet from me.

That's all I got
Johnny Vagabond | 12.19.04 - 12:20 am | #

came close to getting beaten up at a Mazzy Star/Jesus and Mary Chain concert.

I picture the punches being thrown...very...very...

...slowly.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:21 am | #

Farscape had its moments, but I thought it was always in search of a real theme.

But then again, consider this was a show bought out by the SciFi channel that also put on Lex. The original movies that inspired Lex were actually pretty good, but all I could figure with Lex is they wrote their scripts by surveying 13 year olds deprived of their father's Playboy collection.

I have fear for Galactica. I was actually impressed with the mini-series, not at all what I was expecting pleasantly so. But now they have a lock on it as a regular series, I bet they screw it into the ground.
EkCenTriK | 12.19.04 - 12:21 am | #

came close to getting beaten up at a Mazzy Star/Jesus and Mary Chain concert.

I picture the punches being thrown...very...very...

...slowly.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:21 am | #

You know, I'm still wondering about those chemical and bio weapons. Which warehouses do we keep those in?

Killing people with bullets and explosions is soooo 20th century. No killing them with a thought wave, that might work.

Oh, Wait-- we're already doing that to the "less than average" via TV.

"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell
MeToo | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:21 am | #

Well, SWR, I'm old. So this was still close enough to Cincinnati to be scary.

And if the crowds at the concert didn't frighten you, Belinda Carlisle singing without the aid of a recording engineer would scare the bejesus outta you.
watertiger | 12.19.04 - 12:21 am | #

I got drunk and obnoxious and came close to getting beaten up at a Mazzy Star/Jesus and Mary Chain concert.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Eli | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:19 am | #

-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

I got shushed during "Into the Dust".

I was drunk and obnoxious and I was like "whatyda mean shush this sucks" and some girl punched me in the arm. She sort of knew how to punch. I was drunk enough that I lost my balance, fell down and cracked my head.

People around us thanked her for doing it and I shut up.
SWR | 12.19.04 - 12:22 am | #

There's a new thread and I'm going there to tell Atrios how you were all mean to me and my mommy and sex toys and Michael Vick and Atrios'll probably be all mad and punish you and you'll cry. Nyah.
Thersites | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:22 am | #

.
.
.
BETCHA THEY WUZ AWN DRUUUUGS!!!

"Take The Poll: Are YOU "On Drugs"?"
.
.
.
cosa nostradamus | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:22 am | #

LJ

oh I know we have them here, all I was meant was our city leaders are too lost in their mediocre political games that they never get into the scintillating stuff. What is the biggest scandal I can think of involving sex, Cisneros and Medlar. Thats about it.
EkCenTriK | 12.19.04 - 12:23 am | #

Still trying to figure out why he thinks I'll do him after I told him I couldn't do a guy whose brain was smaller than his dick.

Hope springs eternal...
Johnny Vagabond | 12.19.04 - 12:23 am | #

Rorschach:

OT, (WTF, this entire thread is OT)but I checked out your flood site posted by your honey. Fat, wet tears for the mess and loss. I sent ya a couple of books. You should blogwhore that again. I could not have been the only one to have missed your flood.

Thank you! It's still a bloody mess, after countless hours of cleaning.

The response to the wish list has been phenomenal, with 16 titles already ordered off the 61-title list of casualties. Astounding, and most heartening to see that kindness exists in the world.

For those interested, the photos of our catastrophe are here.
rorschach | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:23 am | #

Philalethes,
I can see the effort that goes into grappling with the propagandists. I find this a very interesting online community. The struggle against a massive propaganda campaign draws interesting people.
Visual Politics | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:25 am | #

The original movies that inspired Lex were actually pretty good, but all I could figure with Lex is they wrote their scripts by surveying 13 year olds deprived of their father's Playboy collection.

Amen on both counts. I liked the first season on Sci-Fi okay, but once they went to the Fire and Water planets AND NEVER LEFT, it just became completely unwatchable.
Eli | 12.19.04 - 12:26 am | #

Sometimes I feel like they're well aware that we're smarter, we are the creative, cognitive elite and they hate us for it. Emotions overpower reason every time when people's identity issues come into play.

I don't know how to respond to this post in a gentle manner so I'll just come out with it.

No. I can't. But let's just say you should read this and really think about how you sound when you say it.
SWR | 12.19.04 - 12:27 am | #

rorschach; Are you updating the list to reflect the ones you've gotten?
Doozer among Fraggles | 12.19.04 - 12:29 am | #

I have a standing invitation to one. Too bad the guy who invited me is a wingnut.

I've been able to avoid the temptation...mostly because I've seen pictures. I did get an odd invitation once, from a couple of gals who were willing to put on a "show" for me, which was just fine. At least in a private orgy you're far less likely to get teabagged by your old high-school principal.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:29 am | #

I don't know. I don't think most Americans are stupid. I think they're racist and downright mean.

I get the impression that half the country is wilfully ignorant, rather than stupid, although stupid is not missing from the equasion. Just read the comments from Rush's America and you gotta wonder if they could pass a 6th grade level.

Still, I think this wingnut force is stoking a whole lot of mean, cruel, destructive shit. They will implode, as always.
bigvic | 12.19.04 - 12:30 am | #

rorschach; Are you updating the list to reflect the ones you've gotten?

Yes, that happens automatically, actually; whenever one is ordered, it drops off the list.
rorschach | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:30 am | #

But let's just say you should read this and really think about how you sound when you say it.
SWR

I think that's reasonable advice. I don't think anyone here is gloating over his or her intelligence...not least because it didn't keep us out of the trouble we're currently in. Personally, I feel like a silly-assed fucking fool.
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:31 am | #

Phila:

Well, that's assuming that you didn't want your principal to tea-bag you...
LJ | 12.19.04 - 12:31 am | #

rorschach,
I have a photocopy of Wanda June, though not a volume. (Amazon has it out of print.) I let my students use it as a post-epic. Send me your mailing address if you're interested.
NYMary | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:31 am | #

Eli

Actually I sent them mail on that. I am trying to remember the series they dropped at the same time Lex was taking off. Dang, it was good, well written and had legs. Can't remember what it was, but it was an insult to see that was pulled and Lex put in its place.
EkCenTriK | 12.19.04 - 12:31 am | #

SWR, I know I used "they" and "us" a few times, but I'm speaking about very specific media communities which are very distinct, culturally. It's almost as if we're talking about two nations. Nobody credibly denies the reality of this situation.
Visual Politics | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:32 am | #

Still trying to figure out why he thinks I'll do him after I told him I couldn't do a guy whose brain was smaller than his dick.

Presumably, like Rush, he didn't believe you could *possibly* be talking about him.
Eli | 12.19.04 - 12:33 am | #

I get the impression that half the country is wilfully ignorant, rather than stupid, although stupid is not missing from the equasion. Just read the comments from Rush's America and you gotta wonder if they could pass a 6th grade level.

I'm going by people I know. My father isn't stupid. His IQ's probably higher than mine (not saying much but..) and I saw how he went from sort of leaning to Kerry to getting hooked by the Swift Boat line to voting for Bush.

And the key was his downright, meanspirited hatred of Asians. Kerry testified in front of Congress for some gooks. That's it.

My ex coworker (who's once again smarter than I am) was sort of leaning against Bush until we actually invaded Iraq. Then boom. He become pro Bush. I remember mentioning how 10,000 people have died in Iraq and he said something like "I thought it was only 900" and I said "how about the Iraqis?"

And he said I don't count those people.

Not stupid. Mean.
SWR | 12.19.04 - 12:34 am | #

Eli:

By now, he does know that I mean him. He emailed me pictures of it. Don't ask what I did with them.
LJ | 12.19.04 - 12:35 am | #

Well, that's assuming that you didn't want your principal to tea-bag you...
LJ

I run into plenty of people I'd rather avoid just by walking down the goddamn street. I do NOT need to see them peddling their wares au naturel!
Philalethes | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:35 am | #

I am trying to remember the series they dropped at the same time Lex was taking off.

Was it The Chronicle? That was pretty decent, and it had Booger from Revenge Of The Nerds as Pigboy. Now *that's* what I call legs!
Eli | 12.19.04 - 12:36 am | #

Eli

I think thats it. i know we watched that religiously here. Wow, I can't believe that slipped my mind so easily.
EkCenTriK | 12.19.04 - 12:38 am | #

Thanks, NYMary! The e-mail is on the way.

It was a real shame to lose almost all my Vonnegut, but people have been very generous helping replace them...
rorschach | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:39 am | #

He emailed me pictures of it.

Jesus, I totally didn't get the manual. I don't e-mail pictures of my parts (someone did that to my girlfriend too), and I don't get turned on by lesbians. I'm starting to wonder if I might be gay or something...
Eli | 12.19.04 - 12:41 am | #

'night all! If filkertom comes back, tell him the musical rocks. He could totally take Webber in a cage match.

One question before I go... what's everyone think of Enterprise? How's it fitting in to trekdom? I enjoy it myself, more for the details & the emerging technology... and if they have 1 more 3 parter, I'll scream.

And Porthos is cute.
Charlotte Smith (nee Beavers) | 12.19.04 - 12:44 am | #

SWR

They have to dehumanize those people to accept what is going on. That process is what amazes me. I really do not think they sit down and rationalize anything out. It just happens. Play the martial music and the enemy no longer has a face.
EkCenTriK | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:36 am | #

-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

My grandfather (who served in the Marines in WWII) had the skull of a Japanese soldier in his basement he kept as a souvenir.

Right after my freshman year of college when I felt confident enought to confront him about it I did. I said "isn't this wrong. Isn't racism wrong?"

And he said "yes but so what? I don't like blacks or gooks. I don't like the way they sound. I don't like the way they smell. And that's my opinion. You have no right to try to change it."

Not stupid and not unaware. Mean.

I don't think the typical LGFer is stupid. After all, they did realize that the Dan Rather memo was fake when we all fooled ourselves into thinking it was real. But they're mean. 9/11 gave them the chance to "stop being liberal wimps" and hate to their hearts content.

I agree with Norman Mailer. I think fascism is normal and democracy is the exception.
SWR | 12.19.04 - 12:44 am | #

SWR,
People who seem nice within their own cultural group can be 'hateful' towards groups they are culturally alienated from.

These people have a primordial mindset of deep tribal loyalty and their self-identity is strongly bound to their cultural group.

These people haven't gotten high enough to see the big picture. It's small-mindedness. Compassion arises from awareness.

A famous civil rights activist once said "Forgive them for they know not what they do", alluding to ignorance as being the fundamental problem.
Visual Politics | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:45 am | #

got it, rorschach. I'll hit the office Monday and deal with it then. It'd be an honor. Looking through the list, I see a few I need. Stoler looks crucial.

Gotta crash. I graded for 12 hours today. (Shudder)
NYMary | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:45 am | #

SWR,

I don't think it's off the table to question the people who yammer away about the intellectually *elite* in derogotory terms day in and day out. I just wish we could boil it all down to intellectually honest.

For crying out loud, trying to justify invading Iraq based on the neocon theory shows how smart folks worked on the ignorance and lack of critical thinking of the red state mentality.

Maybe simplistic thinking? Not stupid? Fuck. Look what the trolls post here.

Peace
bigvic | 12.19.04 - 12:46 am | #

These people haven't gotten high enough to see the big picture. It's small-mindedness. Compassion arises from awareness.

No. They see the big picture. They just choose to hate. People make choices. Sometimes they make bad ones.
SWR | 12.19.04 - 12:48 am | #

Jesus, I totally didn't get the manual. I don't e-mail pictures of my parts (someone did that to my girlfriend too), and I don't get turned on by lesbians. I'm starting to wonder if I might be gay or something...

Um... No. It sounds like you're a real man who knows what he likes and has some dignity. Nothing wrong with that. Do you think his sending me that picture didn't turn me off a whole lot? When I want to see it, I'll say so. Until then... Have some frickin' class and DON'T.
LJ | 12.19.04 - 12:50 am | #

For crying out loud, trying to justify invading Iraq based on the neocon theory shows how smart folks worked on the ignorance and lack of critical thinking of the red state mentality.

I honestly think that's bullshit. Nobody (not the Israelis, not the "neocons" not the oil interestes) manipulated the American people into supporting the war in Iraq.

We wanted it. We voted for the guy who was in favor of it. We chose it. We saw the planes hit the towers on 9/11 and decided we had to kick some towelhead ass to get even.
SWR | 12.19.04 - 12:51 am | #

Nite, Mary.
bigvic | 12.19.04 - 12:54 am | #

No. They see the big picture. They just choose to hate. People make choices. Sometimes they make bad ones.
SWR

"Forgive them for they know not what they do." - To me, this means that Jesus did not believe in the supernatural concept of evil. Cruelty is based on ignorance. BTW, this "not knowing what they do" is refering to not being aware on an emotional level of the pain they cause others. "Knowing" in this context is not intellectual, it's about lack of compassion, which amounts to emotional blindness.
Visual Politics | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 12:55 am | #

So you chicks *aren't* turned on by that? Damn, it sounded like such a good idea when I heard about it...
*delete delete delete*

Women are such mysterious creatures.

Speaking of mysterious creatures, I am now looking at Robert De Niro in drag as the Crazy Cat Lady. I hope I'm hallucinating.
Eli | 12.19.04 - 12:55 am | #

iThe state and county had sued Diebold for fraudulent claims about the security of its electronic voting machines."
EkCenTriK

Finally, some good news in all this bizzarro world crap for a change.

Not really good news, it did not change the results. They will happily pay fines if they can steal the elections.
____league | 12.19.04 - 12:56 am | #

Is Haloscan lagging?
Visual Politics | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 1:04 am | #

Swr,

I feel and share your intense anger, But to claim that the Neo-con-artists and the Bush Admin didn't manipulate logic and reason and falsehood to get their war on is just wrong. WE didn't have a good excuse to envade Iraq. It was made up and hyped, and the blood thirsty took it hook, line and sinker. As did the truely not too smart who count on hate radio to tell them how to think.

Peace.
bigvic | 12.19.04 - 1:06 am | #

Cock.
Suckers.
Or should I abbreviate that so they don't get offended.
C.
S.
C-ck.
S-ckers.
There, now the kids can read it.
We're all screwed.
the ghost | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 1:10 am | #

But to claim that the Neo-con-artists and the Bush Admin didn't manipulate logic and reason and falsehood to get their war on is just wrong.

They certainly tried to manipulate people. But in the end, none of it would have worked had the American people not wanted the war.

Of course part of it is the fact that most of us aren't paying any real price for it. We're a titanically powerful country. We can invade countries like Iraq without breaking a sweat.

And we wanted this one just to make up for feeling punked on 9/11.

Now if we went to war with a country that could hit back, with North Korea, for example, we'd probably be less gullible about the reasons why we went there. People get smarter when they're own lives are on the line.

But Iraq. Blah. It's just entertainment.
SWR | 12.19.04 - 1:11 am | #

I agree with Norman Mailer. I think fascism is normal and democracy is the exception.
SWR

Well, that is certinly something to chew on. A good reading of modern lit could (in the last 100 years alone) could offer hope and despair.

I want inspired, truthful democrats to stand up for what we belive in and stop kissing the asses of the ignorant. Fuck the wish-washy middle.

Lead, for a change. The first JFK did that. But he didn't have the little satan Rove and the Swiftboaters.
bigvic | 12.19.04 - 1:22 am | #

Rorschach,

I have all the hardbound and softbound Vonnegut books. I wanted to get you the "Wanda" but it was not available. I'll send you my softbound if Amazon doesn't reprint it.
bigvic | 12.19.04 - 1:35 am | #

bigvic, the 'Murkan people are sorry-assed and mean.
Incognito | 12.19.04 - 1:41 am | #

bigvic, the 'Murkan people are sorry-assed and mean.

I don't know where you're getting that from. Most of our asses aren't sorry at all.
Eli | 12.19.04 - 1:49 am | #

Comment to a post waaaaaaaaaaaaaay back up yonder about Canada.......

Anybody else notice the 'liberals want to make us like Canada' thing making the rounds an awful lot lately?

The echo chamber seems to be really reverberating with this one the past few weeks.....
Anus Moses | 12.19.04 - 1:53 am | #

Wow, how horrible it that? A progressive society like Canada moving confidently into the 21st century instead of a regressive frightened and mean Jerry Falwell's bizarro Jesusland.
Incognito | 12.19.04 - 2:02 am | #

Well, incog,

My dear you sure got your sharper posts. This is not cookie making going on here. Heh.

Gotta sleep. Nite friends.
bigvic | 12.19.04 - 2:05 am | #

OHHHH GAWD, PLEASE, PLEASE DON'T LET US BE LIKE CANADA!!!

OH GAWD, THE HUMANITY!!!
Incognito | 12.19.04 - 2:05 am | #

My dear you sure got your sharper posts.

Sorry about that but I'm hung-over like a mo/fo.
Incognito | 12.19.04 - 2:07 am | #

Sorry about that but I'm hung-over like a mo/fo.

About one word away from bragging...
Eli | 12.19.04 - 2:39 am | #

I wonder if the conservative blogosphere ever tires of being wrong about everything...

If they didn't get tired of it after Iraq, tax increases on the poor, White House Medicare fraud, and everything else, then I don't think they ever will.

Wrongness must be some sort of diabolical power source for them. Something about being a Bush apologist causes wrongness to condense and refine into its purest form, a wrongness so profound that if it ever came into contact with truth, the resulting explosion would kill us all.
Seraphiel | 12.19.04 - 3:48 am | #

They lied about the "Vietnam Vet spit on epidemic" too.

Denying Facts and Embracing Myths: Vietnam War Crimes and Tales about "Vietnam Vets Getting Spit On"
Tom Murphy | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 8:23 am | #

why would they get tired of it? they're shitheads.
the worm | 12.19.04 - 9:47 am | #

Hooah! or something...
P | 12.19.04 - 10:15 am | #

Betcha that O'Reilly is being particularly virulent these days to distract from his scandal.
Jeffrey Davis | 12.19.04 - 10:30 am | #

" I wonder if the conservative blogosphere ever tires of being wrong about everything"

Uh, like Dan Rather?

BTW, our guy is Time Man of the Year. Notice W says in the story: "I think the natural instinct for most people in the political world is that they want people to like them," Bush said. "On the other hand, I think sometimes I take kind of a delight in who the critics are."

It's nice to know that our leader finds the ineffective, unintentionally funny attacks by the Michael Moore/MoveOn tinfoil hat brigade as funny as I do.
Richard Head | 12.19.04 - 10:42 am | #

Go fuck yourself!
D Cheney. | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 10:59 am | #

" I wonder if the conservative blogosphere ever tires of being wrong about everything"

Uh, like Dan Rather?

Yes, Dan Rather does stuff like this all the time, fuckwit.

Back to the sandbox w/ you.
.
Grand Moff Texan | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 11:59 am | #

i try to watch the first bit on o'reilley just so i know what's going on in weird world. i have noticed i can barely concentrate on whatever he's spitting mad about cos i can't get past images of phone call. the other nite tho i think he had to specifically ask for reference of any con making remark directly to a president cos it finally sunk in about cheney-duh.
waiting | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 1:00 pm | #

"In all of the protests that I participated (Washington DC after Kent State, circling the Pentagon, etc), I NEVER saw a single veteran treated with disrespect. I have never understood this myth."

Molly Ivins said whenever someone in one of her groups advocated violence or lawbreaking everyone just assumed he was a "Fearless Fibbie," an FBI agent. A few years after the war ended it was revealed that there had been an active program to discredit the antiwar movement. One example was the famous multicolor sticker of resolute Vietnamese holding AK-47s while a flaming U. S. helicopter goes down. It had been designed and printed by the FBI. Harrassing returning vets could have been a no-frills, lo-tech part of the program.
parsec | 12.19.04 - 2:12 pm | #

Getting back to the storyline, I used to believe that 'journalism' was all about answering the 'who, what, when, where, and why' of an event.

Not that this matters to rightwing wannabe victims.

"Oh," they cry, "look how we are persecuted." And if the facts don't support the 'narrative', ignore the facts, or better yet, don't even pursue them.
Jon R. Koppenhoefer | 12.19.04 - 9:36 pm | #

"Just because Cornwell served for 4 years in the Army," noted a commenter to Lt. Smash's blog, "does not mean that he isn't now a 'peace activist.'"

Says a lot, that. The only "proof" these salivating fools need to lynch someone is the absence of irrefutable proof that the person is not a member of the target class de jour...

Brown. Shirts.
.
TelltaleHeart | 12.19.04 - 10:06 pm | #

They never get tired of being stupid, either, apparently!
Terry C | 12.20.04 - 1:39 pm | #

Hello
I am new to this forum.

==========================
Link Building
Sarah | 10.29.08 - 3:43 am | #

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