I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Frist.
G'night.
Oh boy. Just in time for me to go to bed.
I sucks getting old.
Did anyone ever figure out what Jeff Gannon's real name is?
See how tired I am?
That was "it sucks"
not "I sucks"
I'm too tired for that anyway.
Super Sunday
"The build-up has been intense. The two sides are both predicting victory. It will be the most important Sunday of the year. Will the patriots win? Or will the insurgents declare victory?"
That's the beginning of my post from my blog, www.voicesofreason.info. I am wondering if anyone else is as nervous in anticipation about the Iraqi election as I am? I think that this Sunda will not just be a pivotal day in Iraqi history, but our own.
I am interested to know whether critics of the war believe it to be as important as I do? Do you see it as meaningless because of the violence and corruption that has marred the run-up to the election? Or are you as hopeful as I am that the election will go off well?
"Did anyone ever figure out what Jeff Gannon's real name is?"
Jimmy Hoffa?
Super Sunday
"The build-up has been intense. The two sides are both predicting victory. It will be the most important Sunday of the year. Will the patriots win? Or will the insurgents declare victory?"
That's the beginning of my post from my blog, www.voicesofreason.info. I am wondering if anyone else is as nervous in anticipation about the Iraqi election as I am? I think that this Sunda will not just be a pivotal day in Iraqi history, but our own.
I am interested to know whether critics of the war believe it to be as important as I do? Do you see it as meaningless because of the violence and corruption that has marred the run-up to the election? Or are you as hopeful as I am that the election will go off well?
Super Sunday
"The build-up has been intense. The two sides are both predicting victory. It will be the most important Sunday of the year. Will the patriots win? Or will the insurgents declare victory?"
That's the beginning of my post from my blog, www.voicesofreason.info. I am wondering if anyone else is as nervous in anticipation about the Iraqi election as I am? I think that this Sunday will not just be a pivotal day in Iraqi history, but our own.
I am interested to know whether critics of the war believe it to be as important as I do? Do you see it as meaningless because of the violence and corruption that has marred the run-up to the election? Or are you as hopeful as I am that the election will go off well?
Personally I think it's rather sick and perverted to compare the carnage in Iraq to a friggin' football game.
Stop blogwhoring and triple posting, newbie.
But of course that's how the right wing thinks of war -- as a big friggin' football game.
When "reporting" Bush's request for additional funding for Iraq - the media chose to use 9/11 as the reference point for totaling Iraq war spending. I decided there were more relevant reference dates to use.
Sorry about the triple posting everyone. My bad.
My point is that the election is much more important than a football game.
My point is that the election is much more important than a football game.
This election is more like a professional wrestling match.
But of course that's how the right wing thinks of war -- as a big friggin' football game.
monchie b. monchum
I have to at least believe in karma and they'll get theirs one day. I just have to.
Or are you as hopeful as I am that the election will go off well?
The elections should have occured no later than one year ago. A Shiite victory, at that time, would have garnered wordwide support for assistance in Iraq. They were oppressed under Saddam, they are the majority and they have the strongest leadership. It's too late for that now. Iraq became a failed state in 2004.
"The buildup has been intense, as Marines go from house to house, armed to the teeth, reminding the populace to vote if they want to eat" should be the first first line of your blog, idiot. The only winners will be the same unprincipled scum that invaded on a list of pretexts that finally arrived at "freedom and democracy" after all of the other lies had been exposed. Halliburton, Bechtel and the rest of "the boys" will continue their rape and pillage anyway, they're just hoping to do it under the radar by perpetrating this foul scam of an international, patriarchal joke of an election. And it doesn't matter, in the faith-based world, what the facts are, victory will be declared anyway, and Americans and iraqis will continue to die in large numbers. R.C., you are an asshole, take your tripe back to LGF.
Anonymous,
That's an interesting point I have not heard before. Given the chaos of the present situation, would it have been possible to have an election a year ago? Would we not have many of the same problems we have today, except with even less public infrastructure rebuilt and services delivered? I happen to think the election is on the early side, but generally at the appropriate time.
The election was stolen. Kerry won Ohio and New Mexico for sure. How's that Ohio vote going by the way?
I happen to think the election is on the early side, but generally at the appropriate time.
Isn't it *more* dangerous in Iraq today than it was a year ago?
You've had close to 50 American soldiers killed over the last few days.
Ronjazz,
Why the name calling? I respect the anti-war position and I don't need to resort to cursing to get my point across. I just happen to disagree with you on this issue, and I am willing to hear a reasoned critique of my words if you will grant me the same opportunity.
SWR,
You're right that casualites have picked up in the last few days. I am not sure Iraq is "more safe" now, but I think that many things had to be done on the political side to prepare for the election, and the transitional term of Allawi and even the disastrous CPA regime was probably necessary to get to where we are now. Your guess is as good as mine; I just think we wouldn't have been ready from a political and administrative standpoint a year ago, considering where we are now.
Nothing has gone right in Iraq. I would hope that the election would be a success but you can tell that since everything else hasn't, why would this? When something starts out bad, it always ends up bad. This war began based on lies.
I have to at least believe in karma and they'll get theirs one day. I just have to.
Me too buddy, me too.
The election in Iraq is a farce. People have the choice of voting and maybe dying, or not voting and starving when their rations get cut off.
Some choice. And we're not going anywhere. Chimpy's corporate whores have too big an investment there.
Ronjazz,
Why the name calling?
Sometimes it's necessary to shout to get an obvious message out.
For most Americans, a difficult election means a few long lines and some hanging chads. Unless we're made away of just how radically different the so-called election that is taking place in Iraq is different from any election in any Western country, you can't have a rational debate on it.
Even the election in Palestine took place under relatively safe conditions. Where are the International observers to this "election" in Iraq? Where's the press covering it?
How can you have an election carried out by an occupying army?
Would we not have many of the same problems we have today, except with even less public infrastructure rebuilt and services delivered?
Try again. We haven't rebuilt anything in Baghdad, and have bombed several other cities into ruin besides. Infrastructure and services have deteriorated over the past year, not improved.
Your guess is as good as mine;
There's no guesswork involved in it. Iraq is less safe now than it was a year ago.
Stop putting words in my mouth.
They weren't airlifting supplies a year ago. You didn't need 5000 dollars for security just to get from the airport to the green zone a year ago.
"Guess" is your word, not mine, and it's fundamentally dishonest.
You have 60% Shite, 20% Kurd and 20% Sunni with ancient tribal hatreds. Look at how much this society is polarized right now. They're hatred for each other is much much deeper. These aren't people who would like to someday retire to Florida.
"I have to at least believe in karma and they'll get theirs one day. I just have to."
Who is they? The insurgents who are intimidating and killing people to prevent Iraqi citizens from voting?
Who is they? The insurgents who are intimidating and killing people to prevent Iraqi citizens from voting?
So you're admitting the conditions are too unstable for an election then?
Fuck Bush.
Someone, please.
I want to be covered in the blood of wing nuts right now and they haven't killed any in my family back and forth over the last 1000 years. I want their kids vaporized or with their skin hanging off their bodies. I want to run mow them down with an M-60 just from the last 5 years.
Who is they? The insurgents who are intimidating and killing people to prevent Iraqi citizens from voting?
R.C.
Presumably, "they" are the liars who conned suckers like you into their war for profit.
I want their kids vaporized or with their skin hanging off their bodies.
Since my father's a wingnut, I don't like what you've got planned for my skin.
I would reccomend the browning .30 caliber, the M60 jams too much.
SWR,
It should never be necessary to swear at someone to get a message across as Ronjazz did. As for the possibility of the election last year, I agree that violence has escalated in the run-up to the election, but some of that may have to do with the fact that there is an election on Jan 30th, 2005. That is to say, if the election were last year, we might have seen the insurgents carry out similar attacks to prevent voting. Also, I still wonder whether we were ready from political and administrative standpoint. Whatever your thoughts about him, Allawi has emerged in the past year as a leader and an alternative. He wasn't as well known one year ago.
The "guess" part was a figure of speech. did not mean to put words in your mouth.
I want to kill half the people in this country, now. You happy? At a time when we face very real danger and should be our most united, the right wing has throughly polarized this society and the world against all of us here.
somebody has been tippling again.
Since my father's a wingnut, I don't like what you've got planned for my skin.
SWR
They're going to get us nuked.
Or are you as hopeful as I am that the election will go off well? -- R.C.
I'm sorry but I am not hopeful that it will either go off well, lead to good or mean well in the end. The election is a sham.
The whole of it is a tragedy that should have been avoided.
It is a grossly flawed occupation and even more faulted election.
The Washington State Republican party is holding a meeting at my hotel. One of the banquet captains told me they've been crying for the last couple of hours about how they were robbed. I suggested he tell them "Get over it". HAHA you know they won't. I don't know how he kept from spitting in their food.
They're going to get us nuked.
That's still a pretty remote possibility.
But it doesn't matter. They've already gotten tens of thousands of innocent people killed in Iraq. They've already isolated us from our allies. They've already run up the biggest deficit in history. They've already put the whole country under the thumb of the most backward parts of the country and they've already made us laughing stocks in front of the whole world.
That's enough.
Why exactly is this election a step forward? The populace is voting under threats from both american terrorists like negroponte and insurgents. Who the fuck would step outside their house on days like this ... except for the expats who made it to other countries and somehow feel their chalabi-esque vote some equals someone who's lived in iraq over the last 20 years.
under a saddam armed by america. at war with an iran which was also financed by america. after an illegal invasion by america. after suffering torture and abuse at the hands of americans who were supposedly the liberators. after seeing chimps like bush appoint chimps like chalabi into positions of power. after seeing the oil come immediately under foreign control.
why, again, is today a good day for an iraqi? voting doesn't mean shit in these circumstances. but feel free to felate yourself into thinking that now everything will come up daisies, and that you can sleep at night.
good german. don't you have some more atrocities to commit and/or ignore on this anniversary of auschwitz?
It's gone past the point and we need a civil war or revolution now. Or like India and Pakistan, we need to separate. I have no intention of ever reaching common ground with the likes of Ann Coulter whom they love et al.
First off: I'd like to say that I agree that any election held right now is going to be a farce. That said, even a real democratic, united Iraq is pretty much impossible.
Any semblance of democracy for Iraq as a whole is really only attractive to the Shiites, as they comprise a majority. That's the nature of democracy.
The Sunni, outnumbered and privileged under Saddam, really don't want democracy, because they don't see what they gain out of it. And, really what do they gain, compared to their status in the previous regime?
The Kurds are also outnumbered, but have had some fledgling democratic processes going on inside their semi-autonomous area. They want their own country, which, is complicated because it includes part of Turkey.
I believe that it is possible to achieve some kind of democratic systems in a tri-part Iraq. But, a democratic Iraq as a united country is impossible.
good german. don't you have some more atrocities to commit and/or ignore on this anniversary of auschwitz?
No he's just going to pat himself on the back at how reasonable he's trying to be and how angry we all are.
That's the fundamental dishonesty of his attempts to "argue".
It's all about setting himself up to look good in his own eyes. There's no real attempt to communicate because I honestly don't think he knows what's going on in Iraq either. That's why he uses the word "guess".
Well if I have to "guess" why do I? Why is there no press? Why no international observers?
SWR,
It should never be necessary to swear at someone to get a message across as Ronjazz did.
tens of thousands of innocent people have died since the chimp lied the illiterate masses into this war ... and you think swearing is somehow out of place?
it shouldn't be necessary to lie to start a war, but hey, shit happens.
SWR,
It should never be necessary to swear at someone to get a message across as Ronjazz did.
If you're afraid of swearing and passion, you're in the wrong place.
If you honestly want to communicate with people, you'll drop the poor me innocent victim act.
I get cursed at, accused of name stealing, and called a troll all the time by people on my own side. And it doesn't bother me because I have a position I'm willing to defend and I'm not going to get hurt if people don't agree with me.
Get over yourself.
It's all about setting himself up to look good in his own eyes. There's no real attempt to communicate because I honestly don't think he knows what's going on in Iraq either. That's why he uses the word "guess".
SWR
He should just buy a dog if he needs blind devotion and empty love.
Whatever your thoughts about him, Allawi has emerged in the past year as a leader and an alternative. He wasn't as well known one year ago.
He'd be dead in 10 minutes if the US military left. My thoughts about him are irrelevent.
One of the reasons Jay Garner made a hasty exit from Iraq was he was proposing early elections within 6 months. Bremer took care of that bid for democracy pronto.
I am wondering what it would take for a critic of the war to reverse their position and admit that it was the right thing to do? Would a democratic and stable Iraq 5 years from now do the trick?
For my part, as a Democrat who supported the war, I would recognize my own misjudgement if:
1. We pulled our troops out of Iraq leaving it less free and less secure than it was before the war. This would undermine my entire rationale for supporting the war and I would admit it as such.
2. If the democratic elections in Iraq did not have an impact on the rest of the region over the next decade. If the other regimes remained as is, or worsened, I would have to admit that I made a huge mistake.
There are probably a few more. But I think it is a good intellectual exercise to imagine a situation where you would admit that you were wrong. If you can't think of it, perhaps we've become too ideological?
I am wondering what it would take for a critic of the war to reverse their position and admit that it was the right thing to do? Would a democratic and stable Iraq 5 years from now do the trick?
It would take:
1.) Finding WMDs.
2.) A deep and heartfelt apology from Bush for exploiting 9/11 and playing on peoples fears to get us into the war.
There are probably a few more. But I think it is a good intellectual exercise to imagine a situation where you would admit that you were wrong. If you can't think of it, perhaps we've become too ideological?
R.C.
You would think that the fact that bush had to lie to sell this war, that the planning from the outset was lacking, that the very people who armed saddam have ZERO morality or credibility when they now decide to attack him, that the world is now less safe, that terrorist recruitment is increasing, and that somewhat greater than 20,000 innocent iraqi civilians were slaughtered ont he basis of these lies is ENOUGH.
This isn't ideology, just facts. Either way, I'll take my ideology over your ignorance any day.
Would a democratic and stable Iraq 5 years from now do the trick?
No.
1.) A democratic and stable Iraq would also be a pro-Iranian and anti-Israel Iraq, something you'd never accept.
2.) Bush has already done damage to American democracy by lying and bullying to get us into the war.
3. A full accounting of how the money has/has not been spent.
Allawi is a thug, like Saddam, if I recall correctly.
Merl - Remind the WA state republicans in your hotel about the goddamn asses of themselves they made after they defeated Tom Foley back when. If they don't remember and take umbrage, I'll give you details.
Foley was not specifically "my guy" but it was the most disgusting display I've ever seen by adults anywhere.
They can choke on any democrat that gets elected in Washington state ever as far as I'm concerned. They're unhappy? Oh... so sad. Christine won.
Yep, tell them to get over it. Grow up. Then tell them to go read about two dozen books not published by Regnery.
This bitch really isn't listening, is he ... oh well, it isn't as if he's people. I'm not going to waste my time trying to put lipstick on this piglet.
SWR,
I am all for honestly communicating with people but I just don't think personal attacks are an effective method of debate. If I support policy A and you don't, what does it prove to call me an ignorant jerk? Why not persuade me why you're right and change my mind, and then we could actually move forward. I think the problem with the Democrats and "left" right now is that we don't try to persuade people; rather we feel that our ideas are so clearly right and just that only an idiot could disagree with them--hence all the name calling. Now that we're in the minority, we have to actually work on persuading people to think like us, rather than assuming that logic will lead them to.
We're never going to pull out troops out of Iraq, R.C. The plans of the neocons are to put permanent bases there.
For my part, as a Democrat who supported the war, I would recognize my own misjudgement if:
1. We pulled our troops out of Iraq leaving it less free and less secure than it was before the war. This would undermine my entire rationale for supporting the war and I would admit it as such.
You wouldn't think it was wrong to pull troops out too early, given your original rationale?
Well well well what have we here? The "progressives" pouting and crying? You might as well, the world really is "moving on."
How about you R.C.
Would you be willing to admit that Bush and the entire right owes the anti-war movement an apology for:
1.) The line about how we have to stop debating the war once it's a fait accompli or be accused of "not supporting the troops".
2.) The deeply offensive slander on John Kerry's anti-war activism and by extension all of us.
3.) Lying about WMDs.
4.) Exploiting 9/11.
5.) Intentionally polarizing the American people. Accusing critics of the war in Iraq (or even people who use the word "neocon") as being "anti-semitic." Accusing people who oppose incompetent judges of being "anti-hispanic".
6.) Outing undercover CIA agents to punsish their husbands.
7.) Slandering ex administration officials who write books critical of the administration. Why not answer their criticism rationally instead?
8.) Etc. Etc.
SWR is right. Iraq will never be pro-Israel. At least not in this lifetime. Any pro-Israeli government would not be popularly elected, and therefore not democratic.
Why not persuade me why you're right and change my mind,
Because the burden of proof is on you, not me.
You're the one who has to persuade me that the war is justified.
I don't have to persuade you of anything. If you decide to support a war, you'd better have good reasons for it, not "oh well I hope things go well".
The dogs bark as the caravan moves on.
1. We pulled our troops out of Iraq leaving it less free and less secure than it was before the war. This would undermine my entire rationale for supporting the war and I would admit it as such.
This is breathtakingly Orwellian logic.
Iraq is already less free and secure than it was before the war and it's becoming more so the longer we leave our troops in.
You're basically saying "oh well I stuck my dick in this electrical socket but I have to keep it in because if I pull it out I might realize I just got a shock".
R.C. just askin' but if you support the war, then why haven't you enlisted?
we have to actually work on persuading people to think like us, rather than assuming that logic will lead them to.
R.C.
I don't want people to think like YOU ... you, and 'dems" like you, are part of the problem. You bought into the lies, for whatever racist or otherwise ignorant reason is particular to you.
Clearly, logic failed to persuade YOU, despite the mountain of evidence pre-war that bush, cheney, powell, rice, fleischer were all lying through their teeth. and YOU bought it.
Don't come here with trying to educate us wrt how to get red america to "think like us." Your way of thinking is ignorant and immoral. I abhor your way of thinking.
Well well well what have we here? The "progressives" pouting and crying? You might as well, the world really is "moving on."
Bill
Nah, I think it's funny and would just cut to the chase of cutting and gutting, frankly.
SWR,
I agree with you on the WMD and the triumphing up of the Al-Qaeda link. The 3rd reason,humanitarian, was compelling to me, but not sufficient. After all, over 1 million people were killed under Saddaam (yes, I know who helped him)
For me, I personally felt that establishing a democracy in Iraq would be good for U.S. interests in the Middle East and good the people of the region, so it fit nicely into my realist view of the American power and my idealism about spreading democracy.
If Bush would have sold the war under these pretenses, there would be no way he could have "sold" the war to the American people. So, I am stuck in the position of supporting a policy but completely disagreeing with how it was advanced, even realizing that my preferred method was infeasible.
Ciao, I also agree with you about accounting for all the costs associated with the war. Also, to SWR, Ciao, and Nads, is there any result on Sunday that could convince you that election was legitimate and positive?
1. We pulled our troops out of Iraq leaving it less free and less secure than it was before the war. This would undermine my entire rationale for supporting the war and I would admit it as such.
If I walk away from this blackjack table now 1000 dollars down, it will mean that the money I lost was for nothing. But if I stay until I've lost 10,000 dollars, that will demonstrate to the world that at least I put in the effort to try to get my money back.
Bill, I would argue that the world is moving "backwards."
The best possible scenario for Iraq is that it immediately becomes a Shiate fundamentalist theocracy, along the lines of Iran. This is one of the reasons I was opposed to the war in the first place, other than all the needless killing of people who had nothing to do with 9/11. But given that I'm a female divinity I'm not happy about creating another place where misogyny can rule freely.
The likely scenario is that there will be a civil war when the American troops are withdrawn. Lots of people will die who shouldn't die yet, lots more than have died so far, and then there will be a Shiate fundamentalist theocracy.
The only other alternative is pretty much eternal colonization by the U.S..
"...if you support the war, then why haven't you enlisted?"
If you're intelligent enough to use the Internet, why do you use such a childish rhetorical inanity?
If I walk away from this blackjack table now 1000 dollars down, it will mean that the money I lost was for nothing. But if I stay until I've lost 10,000 dollars, that will demonstrate to the world that at least I put in the effort to try to get my money back.
SWR
Your manhood, suffering ever since you lost that game in vietnam, will remain intact.
R.C., I'm not going either agree or disagree with you. We all benefit from re-thinking. Ask Bush to do it.
Because there are things that don't get second guessed.
On this one principle I think we've lagged behind the republicans.
I'm not going to vacillate now. Bush was wrong. I will not waver from that. I don't care if Baghdad becomes the Garden of Eden tomorrow. It was still fucking wrong.
Wrong reasons, wrong 100,000 dead, wrong timing, wrong intelligence, wrong 12,000 American casualties, wrong strategy, wrong insurgency, wrong everything.
The best possible scenario for Iraq is that it immediately becomes a Shiate fundamentalist theocracy, along the lines of Iran.
The best possible scenario is if it becomes a Shiite Republic and gets help from the Iranians putting down the Sunni insurgency.
But since the United States is already working towards destabilizing Iran, what are the odds of that?
Good summation, Echidne. Although we mustn't forget the interesting wildcard of possible conflict between the Kurds and Turkey. I mean, wow, creating two bonus wars with just one started? That's pretty awesome skill.
Bill, hows your Iraqi war going. 50 killed in the last few days, blown to bits. Why aren't you there? You reckon that chopper was shot down like eyewitnesses report of crashed like the military says?
If you're intelligent enough to use the Internet, why do you use such a childish rhetorical inanity?
Bill
I smell white trash ... anyone else smell trash?
Bill, mostly because we just like getting people to admit that they really just want other people to do the dying for them.
Bill- what's childish about it? Don't support a war that you're not willing to fight.
Your manhood, suffering ever since you lost that game in vietnam, will remain intact.
Nads | Email | Homepage | 01.29.05 - 4:01 am | #
Well the whole thing is, I only lost 5000 dollars in Vietnam and that damned anti-war movement made me go home before I sold the house.
If that damned anti-war movement would have only let me mortgage the house and lose 50,000 dollars, I would have won eventually. I really would have. My luck was about to turn. I know it was. But they pulled me away from the craps table just as I was about to win.
Damn them .
wow.
you know, one might think that stopping by here at FOUR in the damn morning (eastern) there would be some respite from those little under-bridge dwellers...BUT, this rarely seems to be the case anymore.
i mean, okay, it's one thing to be the kind of person who fires up the internet when they get in on a Friday night after socializing with people face-to-face, and checks in at a favorite site where they LIKE the people, and generally feel some sense of kindred spirit with them, while leaving room for debate or disagreement at times...
but who the heck does that to make contact with people THEY DON'T LIKE?! is there a designation for this disorder in the latest DSM yet?
just...wow.
-L.
Yeah it's going rough. No doubt about it. And we've made some mistakes. And it might not work. There are a million things wrong with it and a million more that could go wrong.
Democracy is the worst form of government. Except for all the others.
Bill - furthermore, I'm quite sure many of teh soldiers who have been over there would be glad to come home. They best way for a pro-war citizen to support the troops is to take a soldier's place.
Bill, mostly because we just like getting people to admit that they really just want other people to do the dying for them.
shirty | Email | Homepage | 01.29.05 - 4:05 am | #
How are you honestly going to feel in 25 years when you've been looking at people with their fucking arms and legs blown off, at homeless vets begging in the streets because their heads got too fucked up from killing people ever to hold a job, how are you going to feel when Iraq war vets start writing books and getting into politics, when you cheerled the war and didn't have the balls to fight in it yourself?
My luck was about to turn. I know it was. But they pulled me away from the craps table just as I was about to win.
Damn them .
SWR
If only I'd killed just a few more gooks.
... or hajis ... or injuns ... or kikes ... or niggers.
gettin' late - can't type. g'night
put your money where your mouth is.
Bill, explain to me how it can work. How can we have a stable, multi-ethnic, secular, pro-Israel, pro-free trade Iraq? Please, please explain.
Democracy is the worst form of government. Except for all the others.
Bill | Email | Homepage | 01.29.05 - 4:08 am | #
But elections do not mean democracy anymore than an investment means you'll make money.
Lie to yourself all you want. But we're not supporting democracy in Iraq any more than we're supporting it in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia.
Saddam held elections too. Did that make his government a democracy?
South Africa used to hold elections. Do you honestly think it was part of the "free world" back in the 80s? That it was freer than some Communist countries?
shirty - IMO - as I stated in my comment at 3:33 a united, democratic Iraq is impossible.
And it might not work. There are a million things wrong with it and a million more that could go wrong.
Democracy is the worst form of government. Except for all the others.
Bill
Democracies have a free press. Democracies are composed of an intelligent and informed electorate. You're not living in anything resembling a democracy.
You're living in a distinctly corporate version of democracy, which is most akin to fascism. Be proud, good german, as this is the natural heritage of you and people like you.
SWR, I don't know if you directed that me, per se. No offense taken, but I do want to make clear I was an active member of the antiwar movement from Sept 2002 and was actually ticketed for the police for it and such. Just sayin'.
If only I'd killed just a few more gooks.
... or hajis ... or injuns ... or kikes ... or niggers.
Nads | Email | Homepage | 01.29.05 - 4:09 am | #
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If only we hadn't had democracy at home. That damned anti-war movement.
And now. If only France, Germany and Canada weren't democracies, they would have supported us in Iraq and we would have been able to establish democracy.
Damn. Why does democracy keep getting in the way of democracy?
Iraq will end up having to be partitioned along Kurdish/Sunni/Shiite lines, with independant governments if there is to be any hope of democracy among the various peoples.
I wonder where the "human shields" are? You remember. The idjits who went over and chained themselves to Iraqi water plants and train stations. They were willing to perform an act that protected Saddam, but not one that would protect the people of Iraq as they attend their first vote in modern history.
Nads, just because someone supported this war does not mean they are racist or ignorant. But you illustrated my point exactly, so maybe I shouldn't dwell on it.
My example about pulling out the troops should have been more clear. I supported this war because I wanted Iraq to be a stable democracy. If we were to leave before this was accomplished, then all the casualties, injuries, and destruction would be for nothing. And I would have to admit my misjudgement.
Am I correct in saying that, given all of your grievances against this administration (90 percent of which I share), there is no realistic outcome that would make you reconsider your position? (Its not realistic to expect some of things you have suggested practically speaking)
What if a Democrat was in the White House? Would it be different or would you support a withdrawl?
SWR, I don't know if you directed that me, per se.
No. It was aimed at the military service dodging wingnut.
If we were to leave before this was accomplished, then all the casualties, injuries, and destruction would be for nothing. And I would have to admit my misjudgement.
If I walk away from this gaming table down 1000 dollars than all that money will have been lost.
The fact that you're not willing to consider the fact that you might be in a losing game and you should walk away is what worries me.
You're like the compulsive gambler sputtering curses at the people who are telling him the odds are against you and you should stop chasing the pot.
You *think* you're rational and we're all unreasonable and angry. But that's how any addict thinks.
i have an analogy to which you "war-supporters" should be able to relate--
in your job at McDonald's, aren't the best managers the ones who really are willing to do any of the dirty, messy, mind-numbing tasks themselves when needed, instead of standing around and watching you do them all by yourself and complaining that you aren't doing it fast enough?
THAT's what people mean when they say you should be willing to FIGHT in any war you claim to support.
unlike Dick "wardrobe malfunction" Cheney, and the Boy King W.
"Bill- what's childish about it? Don't support a war that you're not willing to fight."
-L.
I supported this war because I wanted Iraq to be a stable democracy. If we were to leave before this was accomplished, then all the casualties, injuries, and destruction would be for nothing.
R.C. the problem is - we have killed many many Iraqi civilians, and are blamed for the deaths of the ones not killed directly b US ordinance. We are blamed for the chaotic, violent situation.
At this point, our VERY PRESENCE makes any kind of peace impossible. At this point we're like someone who has completely trashed a house, then trying to help clean up and breaking more stuff. The people living there just want us to get the hell out.
SWR- What point are you trying to make about South Africa?
While we're thinking about that, I'm listening to old Dylan.
With God On Our Side
Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.
Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.
Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.
Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.
When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.
I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.
But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.
In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.
So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war.
"...you might be in a losing game and you should walk away..."
Ya'll have been saying that since 2001. You wish for that, don't you?
Bill, you've helped destroy this country and I want to kill you.
R.C., there have been several posts in this thread about the reasons why Iraq will not become a stable democracy. The whole history of the country is against that idea. Iraq is a single country only because the British decided to make it so. The minute the U.S. troops leave the civil war will start. The only thing that unites the Iraqis now at all is their opposition to the American occupation.
I can think of lots of countries where human rights are disregarded, but we don't seem to want to bring democracy to those countries. Like Saudi Arabia.
Put your money where your mouth is!
How's Afghanistan going, Bill? When's the last time you read a progress report from RAWA. Do you remember RAWA?
There's my email. Email and it's just you and me, mano to scum. I'll meet you halfway anywhere.
mr. funny-face
The country is stronger than it has ever been, and even as we speak leaving the rest of the world in its wake.
Am I correct in saying that, given all of your grievances against this administration (90 percent of which I share), there is no realistic outcome that would make you reconsider your position? (Its not realistic to expect some of things you have suggested practically speaking)
An immoral german like YOU shares my grievances with this morally bankrupt administration? I'm shocked ... shocked!
and yet you persist in supporting this farce of a profiteering war? The reasons left for your defense are ignorance and racism ... I'll leave it to your acquaintances to see which applies in your case.
What if a Democrat was in the White House? Would it be different or would you support a withdrawl?
R.C.
a democrat would have known better than to invade with NO foreign support, NO plan for securing the peace, NO plan for minimizing civilian casualties, and NO plan for actually helping the iraqi people.
Democrats don't start wars to enrich thier paymasters (at least, not in the past 40 years). progressives actually care about human life, including that of our troops. We respect them enough to not expect them to die for lies that enrich botches like cheney.
i think somebody deserves a prize for First Place in the Kool-Aid Drinking Contest:
"For me, I personally felt that establishing a democracy in Iraq ..."
-L.
sorry ... botches = biotches
Oh, Bill. Now you're just talking funny talk. How much do you know about international finance, now?
The country is stronger than it has ever been, and even as we speak leaving the rest of the world in its wake.
At least, until they stop financing our debt, then the dollar will collapse and we'll be screwed.
R.C., you're idiot. Don't post anymore but go join up.
Ya'll have been saying that since 2001. You wish for that, don't you?
Bill | Email | Homepage | 01.29.05 - 4:21 am | #
No. I wish those 1500 hundred Americans and anywhere from 20,000 to 100,000 Iraqis who died for nothing were still alive.
I wish we wouldn't have had to deal with Bush exploiting the biggest massacre in American history to drag us into a war we wouldn't have supported.
I wish I could believe the US government again. I wish I hadn't seen it lie so many times.
I wish the rest of the world were still in our corner the way they were after 9/11.
That's what I wish.
Has Bill read the CIA report about how America may lose global dominance by 2015? I'm guessing no.
no, wait--now we need a FIRSTER First Prize:
"The country is stronger than it has ever been, and even as we speak leaving the rest of the world in its wake."
hoo boy!
-L.
The country is stronger than it has ever been, and even as we speak leaving the rest of the world in its wake.
Bill
how's that dollar doing??? you may have read this, or had it read to you, that the soviets fell not because of our mighty penis weaponry, but because of the unsustainability of their economy.
and bill ... there are more of us than there are of you.
It's all about feeling good for Bill, I suspect. Facts get in the way of that, sometimes.
"...until they stop financing our debt..."
And yet they keep financing it don't they? I wonder why...
the thing that Bill doesn't realize is that the rest of the world isn't fooled by the crap that half of this country believes. They don't believe any of the US Gov't rationales or reasons for anything.
Why Bill? Why? Why do they keep financing it?
may i add to the lovely Dylan lyrics, one line from Beck for the Flag Wavers:
"Baby, you're a lost cause."
-L.
"Has Bill read the CIA report about how America may lose global dominance by 2015?"
So now YOU GUYS are quoting the CIA.
LMAO
And yet they keep financing it don't they? I wonder why...
Bill | Email | Homepage | 01.29.05 - 4:30 am | #
Shows them. I have this shiny new credit card I can use to pay off my other credit cards. I'm always going to be able to make the minimum payment. Yep. Always will.
And yet they keep financing it don't they? I wonder why...
Bill
why does the house keep crediting a degenerate gambler like bennet? becasue they can call it in anytime they want.
maybe you enjoy being someone else's financial bitch ... perhaps you're even accostomed to it. But I would like some better security, considering that it is my country.
"So now YOU GUYS are quoting the CIA."
Explain this. My liberal brain doesn't comprehend.
The country is stronger than it has ever been, and even as we speak leaving the rest of the world in its wake.
Bill
America will decline now. It will be the first time for us. It will cause major social and economic upheavels on a deeply dumb populace. That means you will never do any better than you currently are doing. Your children will do worse than you. You've destroyed us to the world and you're incapable of understanding the most rudimentary effects that will come from that. And several years from now, if I would email you during the decline, you would still have no understanding.
"Why Bill? Why? Why do they keep financing it?"
OK boys and girls. They get a better return with more predictability than anywhere else in the world. Got that? It's a feature of that capitalism, you know, the system that ya'll can't stand. In your rhetoric that is.
The problem for Bill and R.C. isn't that any of us has any power to stop the war. We don't. As Bill's pointed out, we're powerless. Their sides in power.
But we're just like that little voice in the back of their heads telling them they just might not want to take out that next cash advance, that they just might not want to have another hit of crack.
They want the voices to go away. They want them to shut up. But it's not going to happen. We're always going to be there.
They get a better return with more predictability than anywhere else in the world. Got that? It's a feature of that capitalism, you know, the system that ya'll can't stand. In your rhetoric that is.
Bill
The ascendancy of the euro relative to the dollar actually undermines that statement. ... But if you keep saying it, it might become true Tinkerbell!!!!
Eloquent, Incog.
See, I like asking trolls to explain themselves. It's really fucking amusing.
If Bill and R.C. really believed they were right, they wouldn't need validation from us. They wouldn't need to be here. The Republicans control all three branches of government. They should be moving ahead. But instead their muttering to themselves arguing with those nagging voices in the back of their head.
Bill-Japan, China, the Saudis, and various others have already begun divesting dollars and going more heavily into Euro. Greenspan & Pat freakin' Buchanan have also said that the deficits are unsustainable. The damn UN even issued a statement of concern this week that the US has to get it's trade and budget deficits under control.
Domestic Manufacturing is weaker than ever, so we have less to export. The dollar is really low, but the Financial Times reported last week that exports fell.
The reason they keep financing us is because a collapse of the US economy would also screw theirs up pretty badly, too. But they won't keep lending us money forever.
and furthermore, antelope.
(it makes just as much sense as anything Bill & RC have said so far...although it WOULD be wise to wonder just what the Chinese have in mind, long term...because certainly they would be putting the interests of US corporations ahead of their own nation's, right? no? really? uh...uh oh--dollar go bye-bye?)
-L.
the chinese will fucking eat condi rice like ... well, rice ...
Domestic Manufacturing is weaker than ever, so we have less to export. The dollar is really low, but the Financial Times reported last week that exports fell.I should add - a lower dollar is supposed to help exports and make imports more expensive. But with the yuan pegged to the dollar, Chinese imports stay cheap, so no one switches to domestic goods (helping to close the trade deficit).
They're just propping us up long enough to get their shit together so they will be minimally affected when they do let us plummet.
C'mon, Bill. You need to educate us. We can't wait all day. If you're going to come here to entertain us, at least be quick about it.
Bil must be typing a manifesto...
ΤΏΤ--
it won't be so bad, after a while, probably.
look at the UK...once upon a time, "the sun never set on Victoria," they ruled the world (well, to some extent, anyway.) then, it ended. they are still around. they even survived Maggie Thatcher. we'll be okay. it will be for the best, when we find ourselves among peers, rather than playing the playground bully. i just hope we manage that transition without too much more bloodshed.
-L.
"The problem for Bill and R.C. isn't that any of us has any power to stop the war."
The problem for me is that you are doing absolutely nothing to advance your ideals, you have decided that you cannot do so within the context of Bush. So you sat out for four years, and now you're going to sit out for four more. And you point at the failings in Afghanistan and Iraq only to make your political points, but you come acroos onlly like spoiled children. Even on this thread, you deny the still-considerable power of your ideals to the people of Iraq as they struggle through upheavel, you give no credence whatsoever to any possibility of success, it is all and only BUSHBUSHBUSH and you domestic political situation.
And while you are doing this, the Right continues to incorporate your cherished ideals into the transformation of the Middle East.
"Has Bill read the CIA report about how America may lose global dominance by 2015?"
So now YOU GUYS are quoting the CIA.
The CIA is being optomistic on this one, the cards aren't going to stay up anywhere near that long.
Europe seems to be increasingly aware that the United States that they grew up with has turned into a dangerous, violent parody of the worst of Hollywood. A mix of those silly old westerns and the fascist chic movies of the Reagan years. And it's running out of money fast.
Why do they keep financing the Bush debt? They know that when the U.S. goes bust that it won't be good for them, not at all. They, unlike Americans, study history and they still remember the results of a large industrial power which went bust and the disasterous results. This is especially troubling since they are aware of the westerns and fascist chic movies. They might be hoping against their better judgement that it can be saved. But without a rational president, congress or judiciary it won't be. We have none of these. Europe will cut its losses in the end. They will see that the disaster is going to happen, is happening.
After the disaster is over I hope they put the blame where it lies, on our idiotic Supreme Court making corporations super-humans, on our corporate system and the corruption it sowed in a flawed but good attempt at democracy, the whore house of a press it fostered and a federal system that allowed our schools to issue the paper without the education to all but the select few.
Europe, if you force the United States to fix these things you might just survive us.
For me, I personally felt that establishing a democracy in Iraq would be good for U.S. interests in the Middle East and good the people of the region, so it fit nicely into my realist view of the American power and my idealism about spreading democracy.
That's got to be the most fatuous statement I've read from a troll in a while.
It "fits in nicely" with your views? I dare you, you dumb fuck, to go take a stroll through one of the wards in Walter Reed and tell one of those soldiers that getting both his legs blown off for a lie "fits in nicely" with your "realist views" of American power.
Just make sure you tell us when you're going to do it so we can watch while he beats you to death with a bed pan.
Or better yet, how about you go have a chat with a grieving parent, or a grieving wife, and tell them their loss fits in "nicely" with your world view.
You are dumber than a pile of rocks. I think that this would be an excellent time for you to fuck off and die.
Oh, BTW, if my cousin gets killed in your excellent iraqi adventure? I'm gonna jump through the internets and rip your fucking throat out.
I reiterate:
Bill, explain to me how it can work. How can we have a stable, multi-ethnic, secular, pro-Israel, pro-free trade Iraq? Please, please explain.
I want the ones who pushed ordinary, however dumb Americans like Bill, to the point of self-righteous derangement into destroying my future. Talk show millionaires like Rush Limbaugh and Michael Savage.
And while you are doing this, the Right continues to incorporate your cherished ideals into the transformation of the Middle East.
Ain't nobody out there believin' a word of it. I
n case you hadn't noticed,the US ain't exactly trusted to bring democracy to anyone. Everyone in the middle east knows the history of the US having a policy of propping up dictators (we used to support Saddam, you know). The spreading freedom rhetoric plays well at home, but they ain't believin' it over there.
Can't sleep, fourlegsgood? I can't blame you. Unfortunate, though. Or has it really been *that* long?
EPT - I agree.
it fit nicely into my realist view of the American power and my idealism about spreading democracy.
So that's where our democracy is all going. I've been wondering where it went. No, no. You can't fix the middle east by throwing more democracy at it. Democracy comes from the people, FROM THE PEOPLE, it's got to be homemade. The only thing you can impose on people is a despotism, the kind the United States has been so good at providing since imperialism won over our embryonic democracy in the late 19th century. Mark Twain warned us that we couldn't have both, our press barons chose for us.
it won't be so bad, after a while, probably.
That's why I wrote "deeply dumb" populace. I don't expect them to act rationally. So it's up in the air. I just don't think people here are prepared for that.
Echidne of the snakes
Hi Mom!!
Nads, didn't you get the memo? we killed tinkerbell earlier today and sacrificed her itty bitty body to Ba'al. He said the aroma was pleasing.
As for this stupidity:
you deny the still-considerable power of your ideals to the people of Iraq as they struggle through upheavel...
My ideals don't include blowing up people who are no threat to me. They don't include torture, collective punishment or occupation.
I suspect in a head to head contest, the founding fathers would prefer my ideals and morals to yours, fuckwit.
"How can we have a stable, multi-ethnic, secular, pro-Israel, pro-free trade Iraq?"
All we're doing and can do is keeping the bad guys from taking over. And, while we are there, there will be no civil war other than what is currently going on. And no overt military forces from a neighboring will be able to move in. And we will try our best to repair the infrstructure, just for the benefit of Halliburton, mind you. And we will help conduct seminars and training sessions on governance and democracy. It is up to the Iraqis to do the rest. The utopian rhetoric is yours not mine.
EPT, I agree, too. But I don't see Europe having any real powers to help the U.S.. Though they are slowly growing into not wanting to have anything to do with us at all, which might work, especially when the money starts seriously fleeing this country.
You especially can't impose democracy on an essentially artificial country. The borders were carved out by European powers after WW1, setting the stage for the inevitable civil war between the Kurds, Sunni, and Shia.
All we're doing and can do is keeping the bad guys from taking over. And, while we are there, there will be no civil war other than what is currently going on. And no overt military forces from a neighboring will be able to move in. And we will try our best to repair the infrstructure, just for the benefit of Halliburton, mind you. And we will help conduct seminars and training sessions on governance and democracy. It is up to the Iraqis to do the rest. The utopian rhetoric is yours not mine.
Bill
Why are we there?
All we're doing and can do is keeping the bad guys from taking over.
And Allawi fits into this scheme how?
Boy, you are dumb.
When I think of Allawi it makes me think of the William Gibson story, Burning Chrome.
With out our protection he wouldn't live through the night.
Hi, sonny! Are you eating your cereal?
---
It is all about feelings for Bill. About bad guys and good guys and simple solutions to complicated problems that have been around a very long time.
It sounds a little like our president.
And while you are doing this, the Right continues to incorporate your cherished ideals into the transformation of the Middle East.
Bill
How does this square with "And while you are doing this, the Right continues to incorporate your cherished ideals into the transformation of the Middle East."?
Please, please explain.
Silly rabbit. Explanations are for rational people.
Europe is a faint hope but at this point it's about all we have. They might have some influence with our landlords, China and Japan too.
The United States is the world's next big problem and this time it really could destroy the world. It's not going to be easy but the fact that the rest of the world, including Europe, holds paper on us they have some leverage.
Fix our media and education systems, please. It's dangerous to let even the formerly rich be as ignorant as our TV has made us.
Are you eating your cereal?
Yes!! with bananas!!
And stop voting to discriminate against me because I'm gay and you're the hetero majority, Bill.
And we will help conduct seminars and training sessions on governance and democracy. It is up to the Iraqis to do the rest. The utopian rhetoric is yours not mine.
Damn ... haloscanned!!!
... do these seminars include suggestions to not invade countries illegally based on lies. I suggest you and your fascist masters attend.
EPT, we're fucked. This "festival of fruitcakes" as Charles Pierce so fittingly put it, thinks they have god on their side.
They are simply immune to logic.
I swear someone must have stolen Bill's name. His comment there was just totally incongruous.
And we will help conduct seminars and training sessions on governance and democracy.
Like, how to rig Diebold machines.
BTW, by "we" he means some other poor bastards.
And we will help conduct seminars and training sessions on governance and democracy.
You know what that's all about, don't you? more make work for the wingnuttian think tank guys.
"The Rand Corporation proudly presents..... DEMOCRACY FOR ARAB DUMMIES!!"
Yes!! with bananas!!
Good! Bananas have a lot of manganese which are good for nerves and we need strong nerves today.
---
Bill's argument here is a little bit like saying that if I value fresh air I should support someone who pollutes the air as long as that person says that they are doing it to make the air fresher. That's what is wrong with the argument that we should stand behind Bush because he's pursuing our values. He isn't.
Iraqis have to walk to their polling places. No private vehicles allowed on the roads.
Imagine if that had happened in the US on November 2nd? I'd say there are more Democrats prepared to walk to the polling booth than GOPpers.
It's just too bad. You refuse to consider the ideas that are moving events, yet put forth none of your own. Someone above compains about our support of dictators, yet more complain when we remove one of them. And yes, the cost is great. And you only contribute such as 'they can't be democratic' 'it's and artificial country anyways' 'the ideas mean nothing because we are killing people'
Well tht's the way it goes. This is the Reality place, supposedly. Yet reality and your ideas have nothing whatsoever in common.
BTW, by "we" he means some other poor bastards.
Or maybe he has a mouse in his pocket.
I really gotta go to bed. it's been fun I don't usually post here. Nice meeting everybody. g'night.
Librarian, Thank you for the insights. We're here as kindred spirits, with much anger. The reason we don't argue on the streets is that we face visciousness from the Bushites if we do that. Free speech is dead in America.
Here we can argue with the willing. Discussion is democratic, and good for us. We don't find that good on the street, just hatred.
Kudos to you all, the discussions tonight are rational and reasonable. If I didn't come here to read before bed, I wouldn't be able to sleep. Thank you all, even the jerks, they offer baseless arguments that help us point out the foibles in this "administration."
Bill, any dissonance at all in the fact that the dictator "removed" was armed by the EXACT SAME PEOPLE who armed him. And that his successor is thug? Why do we assume the Iraqis best interests are at heart here?
And stop voting to discriminate against me because I'm gay and you're the hetero majority, Bill.
Yeah! quit voting to discriminate against ΤΏΤ . He's starting to get annoyed with you guys.
And while you're at it, would you mind not being such an asshat?
"That's what is wrong with the argument that we should stand behind Bush because he's pursuing our values."
What I'm saying is that your values of human freedom and independence are common to us all. But you are doing nothing to advance them, every single comment on this page is negative. Like I wrote earlier, no one is even going over to act as human shields for the voters, yet they were more than willing to do so before. I don't understand, other than to think that you are only concerned about your domestic politics.
Why do we assume the Iraqis best interests are at heart here?
Well, you and I don't assume that.
Then again, we're rational.
fourlegsgood, fucked we are. But we've got to start planning for the morning after the war ends. We can't let them set up another corporate state. We will have to overcome a lot of nonsense about local control of schools (perhaps the most corrupt level of government) and business.
I say the press can have their freedom back but only when it acts like a press. I've come to the conclusion that a whore house press and entertainment media are two of the most dangerous things in the world. Those are how America's fascists corrupted the country. We turned from a natio adults into one of twelve-year-olds, Aldus Huxley's most impressive prediction. And it was our "free" press that did it.
Democracy seems to require giving people what they need, reality, instead of what they want most of the time. I'd give up our commercial pop culture for a real democracy. Heck, for a real democracy I'd give up jazz too but don't think that is required.
Imagine if that had happened in the US on November 2nd? I'd say there are more Democrats prepared to walk to the polling booth than GOPpers.
pseudonymous in nc
We won Ohio and New Mexico outright which means we would have that thing out of there now.
How's that Ohio recount going, by the way?
Like I wrote earlier, no one is even going over to act as human shields for the voters, yet they were more than willing to do so before.
You know, that's an excellent idea. I suggest you hop on a plane and go do that.
If you leave right now you could probably get to Baghdad before the polls close.
Have a great trip!!
What are you doing to advance them, Bill? What are you doing?
"Why do we assume the Iraqis best interests are at heart here?"
Because all the American rhetoric is about setting up a system. The Iraqis will have an assembly, they will write a constitution. If Allawi is still in power ten years from now, then, but not until then, can you say it was all a sham.
Bill, any dissonance at all in the fact that the dictator "removed" was armed by the EXACT SAME PEOPLE who armed him. And that his successor is thug? Why do we assume the Iraqis best interests are at heart here?
shirty
Boy, didn't the whores howl when Boxer brought that up before Condi. Can you imagine what would have happened if the right had a photo of Albright shaking hands with Saddam and a record of her trying to negotiate a pipe deal?
Heck, for a real democracy I'd give up jazz too but don't think that is required.
Me neither.
I think what's required is that the rapture arrive early and rid us of all these stupid fuckers.
Someone above compains about our support of dictators, yet more complain when we remove one of them.
Completely arse-backwards. If you're going to talk the talk against dictators, don't prop 'em up. If you're going to retro-justify a war based on lies by reference to spreading freedom, don't bankroll people who boil their political opponents. Oh, and don't torture people while you're at it.
Oh, and Bill: your lot has the power and the bully-pulpit. Sorry, this is your little game and you're going to fucking well play it out. In the meantime, I'm going to be sending my money to Amnesty International and campaigning for the release of political prisoners, whether they be in Gitmo or Iranian jails or Castro's jails or Saudi jails or Chinese jails. So stick your fucking sanctimony up your jacksie.
ΤΏΤ, the Ohio recount was a farce. It's been over for a while. In case you asked a serious question. Say hello to String.
The sun is rising, and my coffin beckons!
If Allawi is still in power ten years from now, then, but not until then, can you say it was all a sham.
You really are too stupid to live.
The sun is rising, and my coffin beckons!
Sweet dreams!!
I have to crash too.
Hi to String, incog.
yes, Bill, which brings us back to the former question--what are YOU, Bill, doing to fix it all up? you seem to have plenty of nay-saying for everyone else, and you won't actually fight in the war you support, but you offer nothing new that YOU would do...i know what that kind of duck looks like.
"And while you are doing this, the Right continues to incorporate your cherished ideals into the transformation of the Middle East."
-L.
So we've expended blood and treasure on installing a "system" that's not even a sure thing. What a gyp.
I'm sure some vet would like the use of his left side back on that bum deal.
Incog, I was just musing about what the November election would have been like if conducted under Iraqi conditions.
Two month campaign.
No driving to the polls.
No absentee / postal ballots inside the country.
You don't know who's on the party slate.
No face-to-face campaigning.
There was an interesting discussion on one of the radio stations I caught during my drive across NC today. Two Iraqi Chaldeans, now US citizens, in their mid-30s. One was voting, out of solidarity with his extended family back in Iraq; one wasn't, out of principle that she had no right to choose the government of somewhere she wasn't ever going to live in.
It was one of those debates where you could make truly valid points on both sides -- rare in talk radio, I know -- but I think the non-voter made the better case during the time allowed. Particularly that the voter, who didn't speak Arabic, wasn't in a position to be properly informed if he relied only on English-language sources, primarily online and based outside Iraq.
I have to crash now, too. Niters four legs.
Night incog.
i think i too have had just about my full daily allotment of doubleplusgood speak for the moment.
i think we should all chip in to buy Bill a nice new house in Basra, which will no doubt be an absolute utopian paradise of Freedom(TM) within days of the "election." he will be very happy living there--clearly moreso than he is living with us sorry excuses for whatever it is he is accusing us of being. and, he will have SO MUCH Freedom(TM) he won't know what to do with himself! (of course with random electricity, he may find it difficult to spend as much time at Atrios...)
remember, "Freedom's on the March!"
(i'm going to start answering my phone with that, instead of with the Old Europe "Hello?" i used to use.)
-L.
Niters Echidne of the snakes, too. And String is getting on my major shit list.
If we do manage to destroy the earth over this religious debacle, it will be ironic. On the grave marker in Pogospeak, it will read:
WE COULDN'T AGREE ON THE PHILOSOPHY OF WHO CREATED US, SO WE DESTROYED US.
That was such an interesting discussion I almost forgot why I'm not trying to go back to sleep.
The Armstrong style payola scandal, I'm wondering how many right wing pundits and especially radio talk show whores have been getting paid by insurance and investment companies to push the "Social Security is going bust" lie. I'll bet you anything that there have been direct payments to them over the past twenty years or more.
Wouldn't someone with an ax to grind and access to evidence like to expose some of them?
Doesn't seem to be anyone with an ax to grind and access to evidence these days. Or, if they do, they have a family they'd prefer not to see murdered.
Or, if they do, they have a family they'd prefer not to see murdered.
Deep throat it, send it to a magazine in another city, arrange a caller to bring it up, give it to Hersh- no, he's got his hands full just now, go for the small fry first.
There are lots of ways to protect yourself, its when you want to get your self in front of the public that you run into trouble.
o/t-sorry, but when is enough enough? This man is
grossly overpaid and this is just one of many execs. Again, the top 1%....
if you are in the northeast and are fortunate enough to be awake--check out the sunrise, it is magnificent! 
if you are in the northeast and are fortunate enough to be awake--check out the sunrise, it is magnificent!
=========================
Wish I could, but too many tall buildings in the way.
Good grief these arguments for the war are the exact same ones I heard in support of the VietNam war, as I said yesterday.
Good morning, Quiltlady. It is amazing but you and I seem to be the only ones up and around this time of the day. Isn't aging wonderful?
Good Morning, and considering the alternative, I'd say aging is indeed wonderful.
Quiltlady, i read a post where the military is flying over Iranian airspace to "check out possible targets". I think they are flying over that airspace to provoke an attack so that we can induce our "freedom" over there. Makes me scared.
Last evening, while cruising the TV for something that was not moronic, I ran across CNN. The hostette- Paula Zahn? - was getting a preview from Larry King. She said that CNN was going wall to wall on the "elections" in Iraq for Sunday. King looked like someone had just stolen his ice cream on a hot day. Juan Cole, this morning, states that no more than 9% of the population will actually vote - so, what in the hell are they going to talk about?
i read a post where the military is flying over Iranian airspace to "check out possible targets".
Cambodia.
If the U.S. attacks Iran what do our brilliant middle east wonks think this win do for our relationship with the Shi'a majority in Iraq? Do they really think it will help?
Second, considering how spectacularly wrong they got it on Iraq, are they unable to learn? Even flat worms will eventually learn to avoid a shock.
Our lesson? That the American right is stupider than a petri dish full of flat worms.
The press will play it up, like it does everything else with this regime. they will say how "truly wonderful freedom to vote is...la la la... look at all these people...la la la.." and they won't really show anything, but they will spin it so that it looks good over here.
make that will do.
A petri dish full of flat worms indeed. As long as the beer is in the fridge and the tube is on the game--Joe Q. Public could give a rat's ass as to the rest of the world.
I've got it. Everyone in the administration, the upper levels of the military and most especially the electronic "news" media are to be fitted with training collars. Whenever an American or Iraqi is killed or maimed they get a shock. The stimulus to learning has to be made more direct.
If they try to invade Iran they are given a fatal dose. It's a matter self defense.
Morning DWD - Early morning is my time. I haven't needed an alarm clock in over twenty years. Frequently, Mr. QuiltLady, a night person, and I pass each other in the hall. He just going to bed, me just getting up.
I read your points about the dearth of real investigative news show that you posted last night. It was spot on. The sorry thing is I don't believe, even if a credited show was aired, that the 51% of the sheeple who voted for the moron would pay any attention.
her eyes - I linked yesterday to Hersch's interview on Democracy Now. I read it two days ago, and have been in a funk ever since. Yes, the excursions over Iran are to provoke the Iranians into doing something. I was gonna say "doing something stupid" but what could possibly be more stupid than what we are doing. Anyone who believes we will leave Iraq if asked has their head up their butts.
I was looking forward to a nice day of quilting, but find my creative side is dulled by worrying about this endless war the neocons are determined to shove down our throats. Maybe mindless housework is more the order of the day.
i'm hoping i have @ least 2 years to tie things up over here, find a place to go and leave with my draft-age old kid for the safety of another country where there aren't so many assheads.
Quilltlady, I know exactly what you mean. Last night, I couldn't read any more of the thread because I had to put my head in the sand for a while. I just have to, or else I can't get through the day.
and, as for sleeping, i'm usually awake by 5 am, if i've slept until 6 or 6:30, there is something drastically wrong with me.
Hello, night shift!
Today, a bright new day. Earthquakes are increasing, not decreasing, in intensity. America sleeps thinking, no earthquakes will happen here, no siree.
Meanwhile, we poke at the world, wondering if we should extend the battlefront in this WWIII. Britain survived WWI and WWII, two wars their planet girdling power provoked (by mere existence, if nothing else).
But Britain had a growing empire to bail them out.
NO ONE is going to bail out the USA if we continue WWIII. No one. There is no empire out there that will bankroll us going to war to steal all the world's oil and money. Period.
The alliance to stop America grows daily in numbers and power. It is only a matter of time before it is strong enough to take us down.
i'm hoping i have @ least 2 years to tie things up over here, find a place to go and leave with my draft-age old kid for the safety of another country where there aren't so many assheads.
=====================
Yeah, I have two draft age kids too. I'm just praying that since they are of the female persuasion they won't be drafted. If they are Plan B. My younger daughter is gay, so she will be out. I just worry about her self-identifying as such and then winding up on a list. If the fundies have their way, re-education camps won't be much further away. And no, I have not gone around the bend. These people are nuts. Plan C, revert to the religion of my birth and become a practicing Quaker.
The need to carry a fantasy that there will be democracy in Iraq is most amusing.
What is a democracy? This is when the people take a poll to discover what they really want to do and is how they negotiate with each other to do or not do it.
Obviously, the people of Iraq ARE VOTING....with their feet, with their guns, with their anger. The expression of the common will comes when Americans are shot down or blown up: the entire population laughs, they dance in the streets and throw things at us!
What more do we want? I would suggest a vote question for them: do you want the Americans blown up or do you want them to just go away?
Then we obey the will of the people there.
Ha. Fat chance. Too much black gold is involved.
I don't think anyone here at Eschaton is around the bend, or an alarmist. However, the people surrounding me in my physical life think I'm over-reacting. I hope they are right, but my motto is better be safe than sorry.
Elaine, you've hit the nail on the head. We're going to be fucked, and this is just the foreplay.
I remember reading in the Scientific American (is that the name?) back in the late seventies that a major west coast earthquake would hit in the mid-nineties. They presented a pretty strong argument IIRC. Obviously, that did not occur. Elaine, I read your post from last night and it is truly frightening. I am wondering though if a major catastrophe like that isn't exactly what we need to wake this country up and get people to start thinking again. Or would they just say it was God's punishment for CA being so liberal.
The coming earthquakes in America: god forbid if this happens but there is something on the order of a 100% chance of this happening in California in the next two years and a 50% chance of it happening in the Mississippi river depression.
This (these) events will cause great destruction and disruption. The only way we can cope with it is going to China and Japan for even more loans.
How did we pay for Florida this year?
Loans.
Florida is rolling in dough right now because of this, all red ink. They think, this is a one time affair. It is NOT.
News: a volcano in New Guinea woke up last month thanks to the sudden shift in the earth's surface and last night it destroyed the volcano monitoring station and it is sending fine particulate matter into the stratosphere.
This will suppress El Nino effects and may even drop the planetary temperature a tad but it will increase the consolidation of moisture and accelerate the fall of rain/snow because the fluffy fine light dust is an excellent moisture attractor.
I noticed in last evening's sun set, the moon was blood red despite the very cold polar air which is totally wrong for the conditions and which meant, there was high dust occulting the light of the sun reflecting off the moon.
Expect a very stormy time for a year.
This also means MORE HURRICANES because el Nino suppresses hurricanes in the Atlantic because the high statospheric winds shear off the tops of any proto hurricane.
The conditions we will have next summer will be perfect for creating big hurricane events.
Hee hee - People where I work are convinced I've gone round the bend. Have been so since last year. Then every time I am proved right, they say yeah but... And for the most part they are liberal. In their defense, they are mostly younger and either overly stressed by trying to raise young kids while both parents pursue a career, or young singles trying to find the right one. My gay co-workers who think about it are firmly in my camp.
Good morning, Quiltlady in NY. Sun's not up yet in Minnesota, but I feel the need for a good breakfast. Good to see Incognito and the Librarian and The Goddess fighting back the rolling tide of stupid trolls.
But Incog - why is String on your major shit list? Poor little kitty! What's he done now? You're breaking my heart here, dude. Cut the mowser some slack!
Indonesia: They desperately want to return to normal. They cannot do this. The earthquake events, far from being over, seem to be accelerating to a new event. It is very dangerous for humans to live anywhere near this event horizon.
The Nicobar Islands are shaking like jelly. Riots on the docks as people demand to be taken off and the Indian government wants them to stay because of overpopulation at home.
Thailand thinks they can return to normal. This isn't possible right now, especially if there is a prevolcanic event gurgling right below the Nicobar Islands.
Disaster money: rebuilding Sri Lanka is a breeze because the infratructure there is cheap and labor is pitifully cheap. Everything can be fixed on a penny budget.
America: any earthquake/hurricane event is hideously expensive because we have a very developed infrastructure.
If we have an event this year (a fairly good bet) we do not have much sympathy from the world to draw upon for help. Thanks to Bush.
This ill will is dangerous. We get "wounded" we go down instead of being nursed back to health.
People where I work are too busy trying to buy a better car, or have a better vacation, etc. there are very few people who care about the state of the world where we live.
Earthquakes on the east coast: we had three in the nineties! Seriously, they don't cause much mayhem because they are mostly "spring back" ones caused by the ice melting in the north. The east coast is NOT being "squeezed" mercilessly like Japan or the Himalayas. Or the Rockies.
So our earthquakes are "gentle" in comparison. No sideways jerks.
California: anyone can predict with 100% accuracy that there will be a 7.5+ event within the next 50 year. A 8.5+ in the next 100 years.
It is literally inevitable.
Tokyo will have a nasty one pretty soon, too. The Honshu event site has been shaking pretty nastily this last three months, it was shivering on a daily basis just before the great event in Sumatra.
Indonesia has a 100% chance of a major volcanic event at least once, often twice a century. This did happen in the nineteenth century and some of the greater volcanic events this last century happened there.
Mt Igun changed the world's weather for the worse for three years. Just like the Filipino event in 1992 dropped the world's temps by 3 degrees for two years. We had many blizzards during that time. Florida was devastated by Andrew.
I used to live in California and still have family including parents there. I ask people, are you ready for an earthquake? Have you had an engineer come to your house and evaluate its ability to withstand an earthquake/fire?
Steel roofs: you ain't got one, you are in serious jeopardy. It won't burn, and it won't fall on you with great weight, it has much less mass than a wood/shingle roof has.
Steel tie joints: god forbid, but virtually no houses in California has this important piece of structural strength. I can't fathom why...except the real estate lobby wants to save pennies while building! So it isn't required and barely exists.
These aren't old style Japanese paper/straw houses that can be rebuilt in a week after an earthquake! And those burned, badly, so that wasn't a good option in Japan...which is why the Japanese building codes were supposed to be strong, except of government corruption. Thus the many dead in the last event in Osaka.
The main reason no government should run in the red in GOOD TIMES (according to the GOP, the economy is great and times are great!) is because you need a cushion for bad times.
In summer, in the NE, I don't spend like mad, laughing and goofing off. I do several things: I set aside funds for heating in the winter, I fix or patrol the roof and other vital places and I cut and stack tons of firewood, about seven cord worth.
This takes planning and sweat and careful calculations. Living like something won't happen and spending money on parties and nice dresses and games is SUICIDAL.
Going into debt for this is Darwin in action. The ancient tale of the grasshopper and the ant come to mind.
Florida: that place is, like California and Nevada, a geological/meterological disaster area. People are pouring into these places because the disasters don't come yearly and are predictible with near certainty like blizzards to Rochester, NY.
Nope. The disasters are periodic but catastrophic in nature. Ie, maybe a dozen people a decade die in the NE in blizzards if you exclude auto accidents caused by dumb drivers who don't use chains on their damn cars....but in California or Florida, the numbers dead from the messes there that nature serves up with sudden anger are quite a few.
Fewer die in hurricanes than before only because of evacuation policies but there is no way of pre evacuating LA because of the inevitable earthquake.
Hey fourlegsgood,
I sucks getting old
Great statement. I know you corrected it later to "It sucks getting old, but I got a real chuckle from the first.
I didn't even log in once I got home from my second job. Just went to bed. Have to be in there in about 45 minutes, this morning, too.
Since it was a double work day, yesterday, I didn't get a chance to cat-blog. Today, I put up two sweet little pictures.
Click on homepage....
I have watched Japanese TV for many many years. Get it now off the net.
Even average Americans are aware of the Japanese tendency to make cartoons and movies and stories about monsters wrecking everything without provocation.
This is how they deal with the constant tension about earthquakes. The image of the dragon was a direct creation vis a vis earthquakes. The population has thrived in the shadow of earthquakes.
But much of this was before modern infrastructure. The Kobe earthquake was so bad, it skewered the economy which was weak at the time and deepened the depression to some degree.
And the government there is flush with money.
Anyway, if the Great Tokyo Quake of the twenties happened tomorrow, the fires would be much less but the ability to rebuilt would be much much harder and tons more expensive. If this happens NO MORE MONEY FOR AMERICA since the Japanese bankroll a great deal of our debt!
If Japan and California have major events simultaneously, then the world economy will go into a pretty big tailspin as taxes from California and excess money from Japan suddenly disappear.
We can only hope mother nature is kind to us. She is squeezing the earth and seems to not care, in my opinion.
Earthquakes: que sera sera.
I survived the last one and will the next.
Or not.
(I will be looking for that red dust around the moon, though.)
those kittens are soooo cute!
Old White Lady
Shit, now I want a fluffy new kitten too. But we have promised ourselves, no more cats than laps. Our current cats at 13 and 15. Our cats tend to live to about 20, so we don't get to replace them very often.
Thanks for the pix.
Hey everybody! The war in Iraq is over! Brooksie says so!
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/2...l?oref=login&
th
Another news bulletin from Mother Nature:
Arctic Ozone hole is going to grow big enough to reach all of Norway, Sweden, Findland and even parts of Germany and England, et al.
The coming weeks could bring the most severe thinning of the ozone layer over northern Europe since records began.
The conditions are being driven by unusual weather in the high atmosphere above the Arctic, says the European Ozone Research Coordinating Unit.
The stratosphere, where the ozone layer lies, has seen its coldest winter for 50 years; there have also been an unusually large number of clouds.
These factors hasten the rate at which man-made chemicals destroy ozone.
Back in the day when we were raising the kids and quite strapped for cash, we always did at least an ira and then forgot about it. Kind of like Elaine preparing for winter. Over 30 yrs it adds up. Now, when we are looking to retire in the next few years, we have a nest egg, over and above our SS. At the time, it almost seemed foolish. Our friends were taking expensive vacations, buying the latest gadgets, redoing their homes, etc. Even our attorney told us he has not one red cent saved. He is now in his seventies and forced to continue working because they just can't live in NYC on SS alone.
Of course, if the economy completely tanks, which it might, we will have been royally fucked.
One of the first things that really irritated Europe when Bush stole the election from Gore who was pro Kyoto Accords...was the American refusal to join in the protocols to stop the pollution that is causing really serious side effects.
Not only have we not signed the accords, Russia has now signed it! We thought the accords would die if we didn't sign and Russia also didn't sign but that is now not operative.
The Europeans are really teed off at us about this and the news I posted here is from today and you can bet, irritation with us in Europe is going to rise yet again in the coming weeks.
Clouds over the Arctic in winter: the natives have complained about this. It makes them very uneasy for it is contrary to all nature and they know something is awfully wrong.
Jet contrails: only since 1960, have jets flown over the Arctic on a daily basis, these days, it is a massive flotilla of jets and since the earth is getting warmer in key spots (not at my mountain, -5 today ) there is more moisture in the stratosphere.
The glaciers in the Antarctic are melting pretty rapidly, about 125 feet per year in altitude at some of the bigger glaciers. This adds to the sea level since, unlike the Arctic, this is land based water....and the contrails are now becoming a serious weather factor in the Arctic. Few or virtually no jets fly over the Antarctic so the sun shines fiercely there in the "summer".
But high cirrus clouds in the Arctic in winter? A bad meterological experiment.
Last night, after posting that bit of wistful thinking, I found some old music and lost myself in its comfort. (Gershwin is sometimes wonderful, even for someone not old enough to remember its heyday.) Seeing clearly is not always a blessing. I have often tried to imagine what it would be like to be pickup driving, beer guzzling, imbecile. Maybe it would be better than seeing the incredible machinations that are occurring to keep the Neo con dream alive. Even Mrs. DWD got misty eyed thinking of the poor Iraqis voting. I did not have the heart to tell her that only 1 in 11 or something will vote. Voting in Iraq is a joke: no listing of candidates, no accountablility. Why even bother? (Oh yeah, lying to the American people. ..)
Surviving: most humans survive the most amazing things. Even massive wars of annihlation like WWII.
But around 25 million people didn't survive WWII.
This is why one has to think about these things: TO AVOID OR PREPARE.
Global warming: we have little idea which model to follow. Will this tip us into a massive Glaciation Event?
Or a Desertfication Event?
Great set of choices! Do we want to find out which one? Why?
Signing the Kyoto Accords: it was designe to be NEUTRAL. Namely, wisely decided, monkeying around with Mother Nature can be a very dangerous game for She has a history of annihilating life forms. So we play "neutral" and can at least say, we didn't annihilate ourselves.
But America decided, driving the SUV and getting fat and wigged out of our minds is tons more fun than cleaning our bedrooms.
So we continue to pollute and we laugh at the world. In your face, world, we chant as we tear along in the game of tag with a terrible force worse than Godzilla.
Voting in Iraq serves one purpose. Now the neocons can say, we gave them the opportunity of democracy. If they blow it, it is not the neocons fault. That's it. I for one, will not turn on the tv and listen to more this bushit.
I remember reading about a Romanian village shortly after the fall of the USSR. They voted to expel the gypsy families living on the edge of the village. And so the gypsies were evacuated from their homes and run out of town. The mayor exclaimed, this is democracy in action!
Once again folks, you cannot install democracy. It must come from within.
Hey everybody! The war in Iraq is over! Brooksie says so!
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/2...l?oref=login&
th
I have been saying this for years. For some reason, people think once we fuck over mother earth, we can just ship ourselves to some other planet. WTF?
Humans: why did we evolve rapidly?
The environment: 5 million years ago, pleasant. Then it suddenly declined because of the shifting of the plates and Antarctica got shifted down to the lower pole and became ice and Europe/Asia/America turned the Arctic into a closed lake.
Suddenly, the earth's thermostat plummetted and a serious of very nasty Ice Ages commenced. The climate began to pulse between very warm interglacials and terrible cold times of drought and ice.
All animals evolved but none as rapidly as humans who used their brains rather than simply going with the flow and growing and shedding fur as the climate changed.
The smart humans survived doing various things including cannibalism. The smart human ate anything and literally anyone outside of the tribal unit. They thrived by the wits and planning ahead.
We nearly didn't make it, you know, there were several near extinction events in the climb out of that hole.
The key: the ability to imagine things by putting stuff together and the ability to see into the future and find some scheme for dealing with sudden, catastrophic changes.
This ability is part of all of us and one reason why we are falling apart is because we DON'T want change, we want to live in the past even as the earth is sliding into yet another series of sudden, very great catastrophic upheavals, half caused by humans and half caused by Nature Herself.
Oh no,
There goes Tokyo!
Go go Godzilla!
Whe-ooo!
Morning.
Quiltlady,
Don't be so naieve: of course you can install democracy . . . Whoops! You are correct, I was letting fuzzy thinking interfere again.
I hate to keep beating the same old dead horse, but until the news media begins to do their job: I see absolutely no hope for rectifying this disastrous course that has been inflicted upon us by these bastards. The thing is, in the words of Joe Walsh, "We can't know where we are going, cause be don't know where we are." Kind of pidgeon English, but the point is a good one. If you do not understand the problem, the chances of solving it are nil.
blakNo1--morn. your musical prowess is astounding!
All creatures prepare for the future. Bears eat as much as possible before hibernation. Little squirrels spend pleasant Fall afternoons, busily hunting down nuts and putting them in various hiding places. Careful to scatter the hiding places because those that put all their nuts in one basket died last winter when someone else at the nuts they found.
Little birdies watch the winds and the sun and the moon and when they see all things in conjunction, they head south before the cold winters hit. Those that delay too long, die.
Before a bad storm or an earthquake, the horses sniff the air and cock their ears to the ground, they can feel changes in the air pressure.
Ants, before a big storm, have sensors that tell them a storm is coming and they rush about shifting the nursery, hunters go out and find food as fast as possible. Bees do this too.
Winter comes, the bee colony expells all drones to conserve fuel.
Planning ahead for things: humans were aces at that. We plan not just for winter or summer, we plan for years ahead, many years ahead.
Why has this broken down? At least in America? Seems like we can't plan for the life of us. We worry about "will SS be solvent in fifty years" and not "geeze, maybe we should stop air pollution that is causing the climate to change and might annihlate us entirely in fifty years"?
Or oil: we know there is going to be a major, eternal, forever oil crisis in the not distant future. Why in heaven's name aren't we planning for this and doing sane things?
Elaine - You are on fire today.
Dr. Atta J. Turk, Unlicensed Therapist, answers readers questions.
A Blogwhore of concern, and love.
Mr. Bush is such an asshole.
Someone's giving "Dear Abby" a run for her money. 
The sins of commission and omission by the Bushboy regime are frightening.
Whether it's his looting of the US Treasury with unnecessary tax cuts for his rich friends, or his ignoring the devastating record deficits caused by them, slaking his greed seems to be his only goal.
Making war on false pretenses and killing innocent Iraqi citizens to say nothing of the 1400 US soldiers killed or the 10,000 returned home with serious wounds, including dismemberments shows a depraved indifference to human life and suffering.
The list can go on and on. Valerie Plame betrayed because of Bushboy's pique with her husband. Armstrong Williams (and others) bought off to present Bushboy's propaganda as "Breaking news." The environment, education and the drugs seniors need to survive, have all been sacrificed to Bushboy's stupidity, greed and sycophancy to the rich.
He is clearly the worst president in the history of the USA and by a wide margin.
Elaine Supkis
Hybrid technology can't keep up with demand (private sector initiative).
Many students today studying environmental sciences.
Some bright spots.
Week before last, on CNBC, Timmy had a round table discussion with Andrea Mitchell, the guy who spoke French that pissed w off so much, and two others. They were sounding the alarm about Iran, and it was actually a thoughtful, realistic discussion. They even dissed w and the direction he is taking the nation. I thought, wow, even Timmy is seeing the obvious. Things will change. How naive. Come Sunday, on his regular network show, it was the same old, same old. Sucking up to the administration, not admitting anything bad. So the fuckers know. That is what is so unforgiveable. They know we are facing the end of the world as we know it, and still refuse to raise the alarm. I figure now, the show on CNBC, that was probably watched by less than 100,000 is kind of like the Iraq elections. It was done to give themselves cover when the shit starts hitting the fan. They will be able to say they covered it. Sure. They covered it on a show that no one watches.
Here it goes, the word I never say. Mothefuckers one and all.
Harmony with nature: this is one key to survival. It is also a good thing, over all.
We can't do this naturally, we have to contrive to do this since we are thinking creatures, not habit creatures.
America's hatred for curbing appetite: easy to spot. We are fat and getting fatter. We are buried in tons of junk and thingies we want all the time. Our entire entertainment/media is predicated on consuming at the highest possible rate. This is why we have ceased saving. All ads and such are designed to lure us into spending and wasting and consuming as much as possible. The media makes money off of encouraging consumption.
The la de da view of the world suits these people because grasshoppers make excellent customers for useless stuff. Ants are boring and pinch pennies when flush with loot.
This is why our media is hostile to environmental news that is disturbing. This is why despite record numbers of 5-6+ earthquakes, VIRTUALLY NOT A HEADLINE. Why? Why? That is rank insanity?
A key volcano blasts a huge amount of dust into our polluted upper stratosphere. Across America, not a peep from any meteorologist. Trust me on this, this event will be felt by everyone in the next year!
Why do Americans think none of this matters?
We live in a safe cocoon of oil/energy. Protected from the climate in our homes, our cars, our work places, utterly divorced from the reality that is unfolding around us.
Ozone alerts: when we have these, the airconditioners go on with a vengence making things a million times worse, to the point, one can barely breathe. So everyone increases the ozone pollution like mad, each trying to overcome the situation individually, all making it much worse.
The more we cocoon ourselves, the more we doom ourselves.
Politics: same damn story. Wrap ourselves in demented propaganda, make fun of anyone who points out that this is dangerous, then die in the resulting train wreck.
You can't ignore reality or wish it away or turn up the thermostat or run the airconditioner if this is what is killing you.
Attaturk,
That's some funny shit.
The mass media should be referred to hereinafter as "the corporate media" or TCM as opposed to the mythical SCLM.
There is a growing underground of media sources that are not supported by corporations and thus free from manipulation. Democracy.now and others like it are spreading nationwide often using Community Channels to broadcast.
The problem is that this "untainted media" is still at the margins and needs to be brought to the attention of all Americans, so they can be informed - for a change!
Even Mrs. DWD got misty eyed thinking of the poor Iraqis voting. I did not have the heart to tell her that only 1 in 11 or something will vote. Voting in Iraq is a joke: no listing of candidates, no accountablility. Why even bother? (Oh yeah, lying to the American people. ..)
DWD | Email | Homepage | 01.29.05 - 8:45 am | #
I thought there were rumors of not giving their food rations to them if they don't vote... I wonder if that will happen? Wouldn't that be against the Geneva Conventions protocol, of course what hasn't been in this whole "Uncle Sam goes to Iraq" fiasco?
Elaine, in your post you mentioned the animals die if someone else gets to their food supply. That really hits home because humans are doing their darndest to eradicate animal habitat. In my town, they are putting more land aside for parks, and the complainers are complaining about that money being used for land when it could be used for something else. I guess they don't realize that houses are popping up all over, and I mean ALL OVER this town, wiping out huge trees and great forest type habitat. I don't think trees for houses/fast food chains/hotels are such great trade-offs.
Attaturk,
That's some funny shit.
NYMary
Thanks, you'll have a chance to see it come up again when it's whored on the next new thread! 
MAN PEES HIS WAY TO FREEDOM
http://www.ananova.com/news/stor...61997.html?
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A Slovak man trapped in his car under an avalanche freed himself by drinking 60 bottles of beer and urinating on the snow to melt it.
Rescue teams found Richard Kral drunk and staggering along a mountain path four days after his Audi car was buried in the Slovak Tatra mountains.
He told them that after the avalanche, he had opened his car window and tried to dig his way out.
But as he dug with his hands, he realised the snow would fill his car before he managed to break through.
He had 60 half-litre bottles of beer in his car as he was going on holiday, and after cracking one open to think about the problem he realised he could urinate on the snow to melt it, local media reported.
He said: "I was scooping the snow from above me and packing it down below the window, and then I peed on it to melt it. It was hard and now my kidneys and liver hurt. But I'm glad the beer I took on holiday turned out to be useful and I managed to get out of there."
Parts of Europe have this week been hit by the heaviest snowfalls since 1941, with some places registering more than ten feet of snow in 24 hours.
Senator Conrad and Representative Spratt of the US Congress gave a tutorial the other day about Bushboy's fiscal madness.
They had charts and graphs that showed just how dire the US financial situation is. Of course, Bushboy & the Goopers ignored all the warning signals and alarms and continue to implement tax cuts for the rich or their corporations, while planning even more borrowing to fund SS "private accounts" and other scams.
The obvious truth is that these deficits cannot be sustained. The headline in the Financial Times of London last week was, "Central Banks shun US assets." Which means the central banks of Europe won't be buying US debt anytime soon.
If Japan and China pull the plug, get out of the way or you will be flushed with all the others who thought this borrowing binge could go on forever.
Elaine,
Geez, I wish I could give you some comfort: but I cannot. It is downright depressing. You keep looking for signs of people waking from their stupor, but it ain't happening.
In Aldous Huxley's prescient novel, BRAVE NEW WORLD, he theorized the presence of a drug: Soma. Well, he was right but it was not a drug: it is the dementia of deferred perceptions precipitated by the constant misdirection and outright lying by our sources of information.
Environmental news should be a priority, it is not. A steely-eyed realistic assessment of our situation in Iraq and the rest of the world is sorely needed: we are not receiving. Certainly there are alternative sources of information but we are kidding ourselves if we think it will change things. The Daily Show, a popular show by most standards, reaches 3M viewers. The nightly news - combined - reaches nearly 100 million I think. (I am assuming 30 M viewers per network.) Our3% of reality based individuals cannot move the other 97% lost in Jerry Springer land and demented elitism
IRAQ: On Sunday, a 275-member national assembly will be chosen. That group will choose a president and two deputies. The president and deputies will choose a prime minister, with the approval of the assembly. Then the prime minister will choose a cabinet, again with the approval of the assembly. The assembly will then set to writing a constitution to replace the temporary one drawn up last spring. The constitution will pave the way for elections for a new government to be held by the end of this year. (clip) Also on Sunday, Iraqis will vote for local provincial councils that will act much like a state government in the U.S.
from Salon
In between sets at the Australian Tennis open I surfed the other channels on TV and in the space of 1 or 2 minutes saw, Joe Scarborough, Pat Buchanan, Tony Blankly, the head of the Cato Institute, Bushboy and Condiliar on the various "news" or cable stations.
The only liberal I saw on TV that day for more than a mere sound bite was Senator Kennedy, who was denouncing Bushboy's war in Iraq on Wolfie's CNN show.
Wolfie naively asked Kennedy, "Do you think President Bush lied?"
Kennedy tactfully deflected the question by saying he thought Bushboy might have believed the faulty intelligence but should have done his homework and known better.
quiltlady -- yea, pumpkinhead's other show has real quality to it. another recent show featured dana priest, robin wright and tom ricks talking about the disaster that is iraq -- a very deliberate, informed conversation.
but, then, on sunday it's back to that atrocity where it's spinspinspin for bushco.
The "Mad King George" syndrome is back
Re-incarnated as POTUS is Bushboy the hack
Ignorant as hell
His head does swell
With the power given by the electorate on crack!
If interested you can go to Senator Conrads homepage at congress.gov and click on his "graphs" and see the red ink flows projected far into the future because of Bushboy's spending and borrowing binges.
All Americans should see these graphics for their own financial self defense.
bkny
thanks for that. i almost thought i had dreamed the whole thing.
mr bill, that was one funny post. I wonder where the dude was going to holiday with 60 bottles of beer.
The Iraqi elections are just another ruse by the Bushboy regime to cover up their failed and disastrous war in Iraq.
Regardless of who's elected, Bushboy can make the deceitful and asinine claim that he's brought "freedom" to the Iraqi people, when in fact, all he's brought them is death, destruction and a ruined sanitation system.
So long as Americans tolerate the 1000 or more US soldier deaths/year and so long as Iraq has vast oil reserves and so long as Bushboy and the Goopers are in power, there will be no pull-out from Iraq.
In the twisted minds of Bushboy & his cohorts, they've "invested" hundreds of billions of US taxpayers money and thousands of US soldiers lives so they can control the second largest oil reserves in the world in Iraq.
They will not give it up and will fight to the last Gooper standing in Congress or the last US soldier standing in Iraq.
The trools seem to be ignorant about what constitutes a democracy.
Democracy is such a pretty word, isn't it? It conjures up images of peaceful afternoons on the porch swing, picnics, baseball games, July 4th fireworks...
Ah, what a life.
Interesting essay in Time this week, The Truth About Elections.
Talking with reporters recently about Iraq's elections, President Bush bore witness to a quintessential American faith. "If people," he said, "are given a right to express themselves in a ballot in the ballot box, in the public square, and through a free and open press, it'll lead to peace."
To borrow a line from Hemingway, it would be pretty to think so. In fact, history teems with elections that have led to neither peace nor more democracy, from 1930s Germany to today's Haiti, Russia and Pakistan. Elections, if free and open, are a good thing. But, as our Founding Fathers understood, they're only part of the alchemy by which societies conjure up stability, security and happiness for their citizens.
Or do we just have to send the Iraqis porch swings?
We've certainly sent them a lifetime's supply of fireworks.
I have to at least believe in karma and they'll get theirs one day. I just have to.
Gimme a break. Karma, as popularly understood, is a belief for people who think the idea of an angry God smiting sinners with lightning bolts is farfetched, so they attribute the same basic result to some inscrutable force that - whaddaya know! - just happens to work the same way.
Sorry, pal, but the universe doesn't give a bouncing fuck about what you need for your emotional well-being. Many of history's "evildoers" die peacefully in their beds.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news...yunderway>greed
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news...yunderway>greed
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