I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Chaos breeds chaos, I guess.
ahhh....well, fuck bush anyway
you did good with your captions tiger
Awful. Other than crying, there is nothing else to do.
missing "and" in first sentence between secret service and reporter.
and,
there is no "warning:" scared kids with guns see a car speeding at them, they open up; it's true that an official utopian line is out there that we "take extra measure" and all that bullshit but think about it. And they recently showed another car speeding at a group of soldiers that got what it "asked for," and there's a history of "insufficient or unclear" (no) warning.
It's very, very sad. So unnecessary. I imagine the Italians are less than amused.
Chaos breeds chaos, I guess.
That's about the size of it.
All I can say is, it certainly puts the lie to any claim that the situation is under control. Even in the most dangerous inner cities in America, you don't expect the police to shoot your car.
Another sad microcosm of the hideous macrocosm; and no one to blame, but us.
Sadly, that is indeed the case. Nothing to be done about it except mourn the dead and keep fighting this little bastard of a president.
~A!
http://watchingthewatchers.org
Or maybe...
We don't know the facts. "It's a war zone" is an excuse. Why not wait until we get some facts before chalking this up to shit happens in a war zone?
Or, even if their actions weren't really justified, it's still the kind of shitty mistake which is to be expected to happen more frequently than we'd like. It's a war zone.
I'd like to know if part of the problem is that US and coalition troops still have incompatible communications equipment and can't frickin' talk to each other.
And, what can be said about the final act of Nicola Calipari, who by accounts died while acting as a human shield for Giuliana Sgrena.
This is what a real hero looks like.
they didn't know it had a journalist and assorted italians; nobody tells anybody at a post anything if at all then at the last minute. We are being asked to believe that they saw a speeding car careen at them and they did not react exactly as we are certain they must have. Unless of course the italians deliberately ignored warning shots just to die making the US look bad.
Just fucking tragic.
The Italians have been quietly looking for a way to minimize their Iraq contingency. This might just give them an excuse.
Nicola Calipari
Would Bush "the brush clearer" do that?
Even for the whole country?
To be fair, would I?
Damn, where does that kind of dedication and courage come from?
Clusterfuck
def--minimize? minimize? they're italians. they'll fucking walk; everything we've ever heard of them says they strike for the excercise.
I'm waiting for the story from the surviving people in the car.
Seriously, who would be stupid enough to speed toward a roadblock by US soldiers? Who would ignore their warnings knowing it would end in sure death? The story from our military does not add up.
Has anybody had the intestinal fortitude to go over to freeperville and see what they're saying about this?
LocoLobo,
Thank ye kindly!
laughter and medicine and all that rot, doncha know.
Tonight only Liddy Dole is squatting in santorum and letting loyal republicans lick her clean. Smoockie' s Bar and Grill, Anacostia.
Evening, freethinkers
You know, it's well past time we started to give some thought to the ill will we keep building up around the world. It's getting pretty impressive.
How the hell could that have happened. No coordination? Didn't the guy from CNN resign over this very subject?
and this after Bush was trying to suck face with Berlusconi during the last summit.
Sheesh.
bebe.
just bebe.
flory - I checked out FR, nothing much other than it was an accident and the commie Italian reporter got what was coming.
The story is full of holes.
STOP THE US MILITARY BEFORE THEY KILL AGAIN!
IF US CITIZENS DON'T STOP THE US MILITARY, WHO WILL?
ATTACK NOW WHILE NATIONAL GUARD RANKS ARE LOW!
THE US MILITARY MUST BE TERMINATED!
IMMEDIATELY!
watertiger-
just for you.... Liddy's auxilary nipple squirts clockwise in the southern hemisphere.
I'll reserve judgement until Ms. Sgrena is safely out of Iraq, or not.
Bad pun Elaine
Insofar as this was a convoy carrying people with diplomatic status, one assumes that the vehicles were marked as such.
and, considering all the technology possessed by the US, why don't we have a weapon that can stop a vehicle dead in its tracks (some sort of Electro-Magnetic pulse perhaps?) without re-enacting the final scene of Bonnie and Clyde on it.
Y'know, it's a word I rarely use but...
Motherfuck... mother fucking fuck!!! What in the name of holy fuckall is wrong with this country and the fucking swillmonkeys that are in charge?!?
add this poor dead soul and the now wounded souls of these soldiers to the blood ledger being recorded against the corporate devils and their ignorant and enabling minions- hell hath a price to pay mother-fuckers...
But Atrios, what will we tell the trolls? Why are you making it even more difficult for them to twist and distort your position into one of hating the troops? You really should be more gracious toward them.
Aaack! I still have some of that gunky ronsilver on my keyboard. Sorry.
Some of y'alls co-religionists think the problem is with the incompetent war criminals that some of us like to call United States Marines.
This is the kind of attitude that is making the Democratic Party into an immoral authority, not worthy of defending the American People.
Cue Shrub reminding us that freedom isn't free.
Would someone explain why the nutballs call every one "commies"
Please ignore the trolls. Thank you.
Some of y'alls co-religionists think the problem is with the incompetent war criminals that some of us like to call United States Marines.
This is the kind of attitude that is making the Democratic Party into an immoral authority, not worthy of defending the American People.
Toby Petzold
Kind of like how some people blame the Stormtroopers and not Hitler...
whom they followed obediently.
Wait...
that came out wrong.
Or did it?
Nicola Calipari was also the main negociater for Giuliana Sgrena's release too.
Damn, damn, damn. What a tragedy.
bush voters failed our troops.
I'm with Hoyt C.-
This is a load of horseshit. You're telling me that the Italian (military, or security service of some sort) driver, hauling a recently-released celebrity hostage and the head of Italian security forces in Iraq, didn't know to slow the fuck down when approaching a military checkpoint in a warzone.
Eason Jordan should have never resigned. Irony is not dead.
Our troops are shooting anything that moves - period! End of story. So much shit happens over there; so much pointless death and destruction, it doesn't matter what the circumstances were that led to the Italian reporter and bodyguard getting shot. This is just another US military fuckup. How many innocent Iraqis have been bombed and shot by "mistake"? How many times have the lying sacks of shit in the White House and Pentagon issued the same lame ass "It wasn't our fault. honest! They just got in the way...we grieve, yada yada yada"). It's all bullshit now. Not word one from our government is to be believed. I hope the Italians riot in the streets and bring down Chimpy's pal, Berlusconi for this latest US "mistake".
bush voters failed our troops.
Sean
Including the troops who voted for Bush...
wait...
that came out wrong.
Or did it?
We have no (honest) business there.
hey, Italians and Iraqis look the same to pfc Goober
How many innocent Iraqis have been bombed and shot by "mistake"?
Bad apples, yo. They're *everywhere*.
I'm becoming convinced that US forces in Iraq don't talk to anyone, not even other countries' forces - unless they're telling them what to do.
Toby's co-religionist, who is a US Congressman and not "some anonymous person on the internet somewhere," advocates the killing of 17 million Syrians with nuclear weapons.
We need to adopt some rethug strategy.
I just love how they take quotes from the left out of context then try to paint ALL of us with that brush.
OK two can play that way.
Very easy to find CRAZY shit posted by the KKK and Ayran Nations.
I'll be laughing when the rethugs try to distance themselves from their racist supporters.
Ah, I forgot how resourceful they are. If you can't attack Atrios for his actual positions, simply make one up and attribute it to him!
Seriously though, with all the clever geeks running around here, can't someone figure out a workable troll-filter? I'd buy that for a dollar!
Oh, and those troops of ours won't be allowed to keep their homes in the event they have to file for bankruptcy, either. Thanks to the patriotic voting of America's Republican Senators, the only people that get any financial protection now are.... oh, wait - it's No One! Except for those Republican Senators, of course.
Let's give our troops a break, okay?
The bitch wrote for a COMMUNIST newspaper!
Her caravan deserved what it got!
Fuckin' commie bastards!
Got to agree, the lawyer in me wants to know facts before concluding one way or the other.
The man who died was head of security for Italy in Iraq (or some such post; the exact detail is irrelvant). Not exactly a man unfamiliar with the security situation. Is this a police shooting incident where the police over-reacted? Were the Italians stupid, and careening wildly toward the checkpoint fearing pursuit, or anxious to catch a plane on time?
No condemnation, but lots of questions. Just because it was "war time" is no more an excuse than the police officer saying: "It was dark." Maybe you were justified, officer, in emptying your weapon into the deceased. Maybe not. That's what inquiries are for.
Let's wait for further inquiries, and a greater depth of reporting on what the hell was going on.
Toby's co-religionist, who is a US Congressman and not "some anonymous person on the internet somewhere," advocates the killing of 17 million Syrians with nuclear weapons.
Atrios
Maybe he's Slim Pickens' son.
I think we can draw a conclusion. This is one incident out of what are likely to be many similar incidents in a country of 20-odd million people. The law of averages (this incident, the recent case where an entire family was shot leaving a little girl covered in blood, etc.) would indicate that these types of things are happening all over. We're only hearing about this one because of Sgrena, but it's probably just the tip of a bloody iceberg.
chris/tx:
the commie Italian reporter got what was coming.
Aaaah, yes....the expected line.
Of course if she'd been killed by the kidnappers she'd be St. Giuliana to the freepers.
yes, it's a war zone and things like this do happen. That's why you don't go to war unless that's the only thing you can do.
Exactly because things like this happen.
ah, damn you, Bush.
Since we obviously would not have fired on a car carrying our Italian friends if we had known they were such, there must be another explanation. Like it was night time and the car was speeding towards a checkpoint.
Reflexive hatred and distrust of the military is why real Americans reject those in the Dhimmicratic Party who suffer from it. Which means that the Party itself is damaged.
Time to purge losers from the ranks.
You're telling me that the Italian (military, or security service of some sort) driver, hauling a recently-released celebrity hostage and the head of Italian security forces in Iraq, didn't know to slow the fuck down when approaching a military checkpoint in a warzone.
Exactly. Berlesconi(?) would not have taken such a strong position of ordering the US ambassador to a meeting. He's heard the story from the survivors.
Basically what we need is an option to ignore posts from a given IP without making use of Haoscan restrictive.
Maybe the military has a device that detects foreign journalaists (you know, the type that dig up news and don't just reissue administration press releases). The device went off and they opened fire.
I guess now I'll have to resign my job at RNCNN.
Atrios:
Toby's co-religionist, who is a US Congressman and not "some anonymous person on the internet somewhere," advocates the killing of 17 million Syrians with nuclear weapons.
I'm not getting the reference, but I think it's outrageous for a US Congressmen to advocate that when we can make an ally of Syria. Who's the LeMay clone you're talking about?
Atrios, these people are disgusting. Nuke Syria? Nuke Damascus?
Crazy talk.
Friends keep up the troll discipline. I and others played with one today and DESTROYED the thread.
Reflexive hatred and distrust of the military is why real Americans reject those in the Dhimmicratic Party who suffer from it. Which means that the Party itself is damaged.
I mean, it's not like the military regularly fucks up and continues following fuck ups who give them fucked up orders to do things illegal and immoral!
I mean, that's only 50% of the time!
Time to purge losers from the ranks.
Every day when Bush wakes up, Satan licks his lips ang giggles.
RMJ:
and a greater depth of reporting on what the hell was going on.
So you're excluding any US media? 
So did the Friday Night Circle Jerk get cancelled? Poor little moronic brownshirt fucks - all "keyed up" and nowhere to go!
Toby's co-religionist, who is a US Congressman and not "some anonymous person on the internet somewhere," advocates the killing of 17 million Syrians with nuclear weapons.
Yeah, but he was joking.
"Time to purge losers from the ranks."
Toby Petzold
You said it putz-holder, not me; now beat it.
surfdork:
Very easy to find CRAZY shit posted by the KKK and Ayran Nations.
Hell, you can hear CRAZY shit from the KKK every time Bobby Byrd starts spluttering around on the floor of the United States Senate.
Atrios, didn't Hecate pony up some money a while back, to get someone banned? What was the price?
And yes, kids, it is indeed an Ignore the Moronic Brownshirt Fucks Million-Dollar Weekend!
Hell, you can hear CRAZY shit from the KKK every time Bobby Byrd starts spluttering around on the floor of the United States Senate.
Toby Petzold
F'rinstance?
All:
I present to you a link with information about one of Americas greates soldiers, General Smedley Butler.
"I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. 1 helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested."
p12
http://
www.thirdworldtraveler.co...et_SButler.html
Every day when Satan wakes up, he looks up at Bush and proudly says "that's my boy".
Look, let's keep supporting our troops until an outside power forces us to give up our fascist, militarist power plays and puts us in our place!
Then our best and brightest butchers can be recruited for that conquering powers intelligence and military apparati.
Hey, it worked for Nazi Germany!
USA! USA!
I'll be laughing when the rethugs try to distance themselves from their racist supporters.
surfdork
Problem is, they hate the government. Even this one.
The Hale supporters, for instance, don't just blame the judge, but also, this administration.
Later guys - I'm off to watch a Firefly DVD.
Ignore, stay on target....
Well, we could all write, call, email, our deepest regrets,as Americans, and praise this officer's great bravery.
EMBASSY OF ITALY IN THE UNITED STATES
3000 Whitehaven Street, NW - Washington, DC 20008
Tel (202) 612-4400 - Fax (202) 518-2154
stampa@itwash.org
affariconsolari@itwash.org
I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912.
Brown Brothers, who baosted a partner by the name of Prescott Bush.
And the wheel....goes round.
evil R us
watertiger-
just for you.... Liddy's auxilary nipple squirts clockwise in the southern hemisphere.
The Cori-anus Effect?
World,
Please take us out.
We can't stop ourselves from killing.
We need you to destroy us now, before we kill again.
Please?!
I don't blame the frightened kids. I don't blame the italian driver - if I were driving a kidnap victim to the airport, I wouldn't slow down if someone started shooting.
I blame whoever it was who is supposed to be in charge over there who didn't get the damn route to the airport and tell the guys at the checkpoint that there was a car of x description coming in x minutes that contained a rescued foreign national and they should let it through.
Gene 214 asked the relevant question. If this can happen to an Italian journalist, how often does it happen to ordinary Iraqis and without us hearing about it?
How many of these war millionaires shouldered a rifle? How many of them dug a trench? How many of them knew what it meant to go hungry in a rat-infested dugout? How many of them spent sleepless, frightened nights, ducking shells and shrapnel and machine gun bullets? How many of them parried the bayonet thrust of an enemy? How many of them were wounded or killed in battle?
Mena:
Atrios, didn't Hecate pony up some money a while back, to get someone banned? What was the price?
Always trying to push people you don't agree with to the back of the bus, eh?
Bye, Tena!
I just bailed on my Friday night plans. Feelin' a little under the weather -- maybe those photos finally DID get to me.
So I'm gonna hang for a little while longer.
I'll be laughing when the rethugs try to distance themselves from their racist supporters.
surfdork
Little hard to put any distance between you and yourself. They are racists. The ones in power have just learned how to hide it a little better than they used to. But every now and then, the true colors show (Trent Lott, e.g.)...
If this can happen to an Italian journalist, how often does it happen to ordinary Iraqis and without us hearing about it?
probably every fucking day.
Iraq is still a war zone. In a war people shoot first and ask questions later. In Iraq a speeding car could be a suicide bomber or an insurgent attack so it is shot at. I don't blame the troops for this, they are just trying to stay alive.
Obviously shooting at speeding cars as a "normal" reaction is just reason number 2,379,231 why we shouldn't get into a war unless it is absolutely the last choice.
We know where the blame lies, not only for starting this needless war in the firsat place, but for being so incompetent that nearly two years after the fall of the Husein regime the security situation is so bad that it is not safe to drive to the frigging airport.
I don't blame the hitmen who killed the Judge's family.
I blame the person who paid the hitmen!
For all we know the hitmen came from poor families and had no options.
It's time to stop blaming hitmen and start blaming their customers!
Sorry the quote is from Smedley Butler, a real american hero.
Always trying to push people you don't agree with to the back of the bus, eh?
Toby Pretzold
I'd pay to see you run over by the bus, fucktard.
They tried to take over before, know how evil these assholes are:
The First Fascist Plot to Seize the U.S. Government
George Seldes' Editorial Note:
General Smedley Butler testified before a Congressional Committee that several Wall Street bankers, one of them connected with J.P. Morgan and Co., several founders of the American Liberty League, and several heads of the American Legion plotted to seize the government of the United States shortly after President Roosevelt established the New Deal. The press, with a few exceptions, suppressed the news. Worse yet, the McCormack-Dickstein Committee suppressed the facts involving the big business interests, although it confirmed the plot which newspapers and magazines had either refused to mention or had tried to kill by ridicule.
***
oh surfie,
it was fun playing with the right-wing leather queens...
we got to learn all sorts of coded gay cultural references from steve, and we got to see the gay republican bears get all hot and bothered at the sight of you holding your long, hard, rifle...
Back OnT,
at this point, if I am manning a checkpoint in Iraq I am shooting anything and anyone that even looks at me weird.
The fault in this case most likely lies with the higher ups in the military and the diplomatic corps, who were unable to forewarn the grunts about the VIPs coming through.
No doubt those same political types will say "the troops manning the checkpoint acted in accordance with the ROE, there will be no consequences."
Where's Bin Laden?
Since we'll never hear what actually happened, here's an attempt to use my psychic powers:
The Italians negotiate the release and collect the hostage. The people in the car radio the Italian headquarters, which calls the Americans: "We've got a car coming through on Saddam Road".
The American headquarters calls some lower echelon and says, "Clear the Italians through on Saddam Road." Then calls the Italians back and tells them: "You're clear on Saddam Road."
So the Italians move on through.
But passing orders is harder than that. There may be 5 or 6 echelons or layers of command between the headquarters that talked to the Italians and the squad covering the checpoint. I think the checkpoint never got the word; somebody fucked up and good people died.
Have fun with the Ybot troll. Much as I enjoy him, I'm off to see Primer. And if it's good, why I'll just go back and watch it over again!*
*Joke which is meaningless unless you know about the film. Actually, not particularly funny even if you do!
bush voters are cowards. they panicked at the first sign of danger and let their country down.
steeveboy, yes it was fun. They really are pathetic lonely losers.
Iraq is still a war zone. In a war people shoot first and ask questions later. In Iraq a speeding car could be a suicide bomber or an insurgent attack so it is shot at. I don't blame the troops for this, they are just trying to stay alive.
As far as I'm concerned, that is just one side of the story. Until I read some foreign press coverage of this in the next few days, I'm not believing what the Pentagon says happened. They lie about everything and have no credibility left with me to back up this version of events.
bush voters are cowards. they panicked at the first sign of danger and let their country down.
Olaf glad and big
Especially those coward troops who voted for Bush!
Fuckers!
Let 'em rot!
The stupidity is the policy of shooting at checkpoints.
The stupidity is our being there in the first place.
The stupidity is, shoot first, ask questions later.
Seems a lot of condo communities I've been at have tire spikes to keep unauthorized vehicles from entering. If you don't stop, the tire spikes stop you.
Yeah, you're right. Probably ought to just keep shooting the innocents. Easier that way.
I keep thinking that the great spirit should start again with cockroaches, but then someone like Nicola Calipari comes along and I feel that maybe, just maybe, there is still hope for the human beings.
"I don't blame the frightened kids."
Julia
What concerns me is what these frightened kids are going to be like when they return to the US after two (or more) year-long tours in Iraq.
After surviving on high adrenaline and meals in a bag, constantly being threatened by car-bombs and IEDs they can't even see, these frightened kids are going to come home with war wounds that are not visible.
I'm willing to bet when the furor dies down, and the "investigation" is completed months from now, the truth will be very different from what we're being told today. Like the heroic hospital rescue and the death of the patriotic NFLer, things have a way of changing over time.
Who ever said that the car was speeding? Does anyone have a link to that? How do you (Anyone) know it wasn't at a full fucking stop with the released reporter signing autographs when the marines decided to make swiss cheese out of it?
I'm hearing a lot of defensive dressing-up of this story. I suppose it's understandable, the alternative isn't pretty. But that same willful donning of the rosy goggles is what got us into this idiotic position in Iraq in the first place.
When Liddy Dole walks into the breeze, her labia's vibrations sound out a perfect 440 A with just enough vibrato to make a Lehar opera.
Blame America First™, a product of MoveOn.org.
Julia - maybe it's my age, growing up during watergate, but I am still a little astonished every time I see upright american citizens believing they're getting anything remotely resembling the truth from the gov. Really, truly, everything this one says is a lie. Including The, And, and Is.
Wapiti - Your narrative falls apart at the point were the US says they warned them to stop more than once. At night, that probably includes spotlighting them from a distance, then warning shots in front of the car, etc. That is the story from our military anyway.
Not sure why so many are assuming the "speeding car blowing a checkpoint" is the case. We have only one source saying that, and that is the military which has every reason to try and make this story go away.
The survivors in the car will be telling their story. Anybody here read Italian and want to go check some Italian news websites?
schwa, i can't think of anyone else to blame in this situation.
They lie about everything and have no credibility left with me to back up this version of events.
Completely understandable.
Shooting at speeding cars is SOP in Iraq though. It could be that they are just using that to cover something up of course, but from what I know of the situation there the "offical version" is all too possible.
Hi Schwa?!!!!
Are you my dumber twin brother?
More bebe, less schwa?
We've probably forgotten about it, since it happened in 1999, but I bet the Italians haven't.
Relatives of the victims and ordinary Italians reacted with outrage to the acquittal of an American marine pilot whose plane, flying too low and faster than rules permitted, cut through a cable car line at an Italian ski resort last February and caused the deaths of 20 people. A US military jury at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina found Capt. Richard Ashby, 31, not guilty of involuntary homicide and manslaughter Thursday after a 17-day court martial.
surfdork, you mean they are pathetic lonely loser closeted bear leather queens!
wait a minute, gotta add more lube to my anti-troll body condom...
ahhh, that's better.
Tell me schwa?
Why are you ripping my name, guckert-guzzler?
surfdork, you mean they are pathetic lonely loser closeted bear leather queens!
wait a minute, gotta add more lube to my anti-troll body condom...
ahhh, that's better.
are these checkpoints permanent, or are they set up for specific reasons? it would be ironic if the checkpoint was set up to secure the road for that car.
Hey Chris, boy that earlier troll was on piece of work eh?
Blame America First™, a product of MoveOn.org.
Schwithead?
Don't Blame America Ever™, a product of brain damage and ignorance of history.
Blame America First™, a product of MoveOn.org.
They're scared shitless, aren't they?
surfdork - Geez, no kiddin. In the old days he would be a candidate for a lobotomy.
Speeding cars are s.o.p in Italy
And what are the Italians doing in cars without armor. esp the chief of intelligence.
They are (were) coalition partners.
Were they set-up with non-armored vehicles to encourage an "accident"
steveboy,
The airsoft coments did push my buttons.
Must learn to resist...
I think the Italians got shot because they were guilty of being DNC
Definitely Not Caucasian.
Will CNN hire Eason Jordan back now that the US attacked a non-Arab reporter?
Diane--I was reading some articles on returning soldiers and how unprepared we are to care for them. I'll try to locate the links. They were published within the last week.
Do not know but offer:
Troops at check point on airport road in Bahgdad have seen car bombers before. They routinely shoot at whatever looks suspicious because, simply, they do not want to get blown up.
Whenever this has happened in the past, no one bitched. This time, it is different.
Chris /TX,
I think a high colonic would do 'em more good since they are shit for brains...
Let me jump in to redirect the anger to where it really belongs... the white house and the pentagon. The soldiers are in a no-win situation; an unbelievable mess of a war, where you HAVE to shoot at cars, speeding towards you or not, because our Fearless Leader put you in a situation where its pretty likely that said car is filled with explosives. Super Rummy decided that you don't really need proper equipment or adequate troop levels, so bang bang. Add to this the fact that our cowed media refuses to bring the truth of the situation to light, so Chimpy gets re-elected. It used to be a joke that USMC stood for "U Suckers Missed Christmas"... or two.. or three...
The blood is entirely on the hands of Bush, Rummy and all who enable them.
The survivors in the car will be telling their story. Anybody here read Italian and want to go check some Italian news websites?
chris/tx
I have a middlin' grasp of Italian. Where's renato?
And where are the Italian blogs?
got any links chris/tx?
In the old days he would be a candidate for a lobotomy.
I'm pretty sure that trool was what was left *after* the lobotomy. That thread was toxic.
Nowadays, anything that comes from the Pentagon is treated in our house as suspect until proven otherwise.
Haven't seen much evidence for their positions lately.
Since we obviously would not have fired on a car carrying our Italian friends if we had known they were such, there must be another explanation.
Well, there must be. Why don't you spend a year manning checkpoints on the airport road in Baghdad, Toby, and let us know if that helps explain things?
Alas, only French, but I'm checking to see what Le Monde has to say.
The blood is entirely on the hands of Bush, Rummy and all who enable them.
Exactly.
Whenever this has happened in the past, no one bitched. This time, it is different.
They were DWI.
Driving While Iraqi.
Gene 214 asked the relevant question. If this can happen to an Italian journalist, how often does it happen to ordinary Iraqis and without us hearing about it?
Iraqis are killed everyday in this same manor we just don’t hear about it.
I remember reading this when I was young: "The man who says 'My country right or wrong' is mistaken. My country 'wrong' needs my help."
And that's what patriotism is all about, Charlie Brown...
Why do you people blame the troops!
It's not like they volunteered to follow assholes into war!
It's not like they have the option to stop fighting for fascists!
It's not like they could end the war tomorrow by refusing to do illegal and immoral acts!
It's not the troops fault if they do the evil things they are told to do!
Dave -
Well put.
Gotta fight this bullshit meme:
Why do you people blame the troops!
NOBODY HERE IS BLAMING THE TROOPS.
Folks don't let the wingnuts use this bullshit.
Mena, if it were a story I found less plausible, I would doubt it more.
The idea that these guys didn't know what was coming at them because no-one told them sounds all too plausible to me. And yes, I'm sure it happens to iraqi civilians all the time.
Diane, you and me both.
I see you can't swing an axe around here without hitting a troll.
Looks like the Dems took a chunk of hide out of the SCLM today
So, does Italy pull out of Iraq? If not and if, as I suspect, Bush will say sorry but refuse to accept responsibility, does Berlusconi go down? One can only hope.
I think the Italians got shot because they were guilty of being DNC
Definitely Not Caucasian.
Only the southern Italian have a dark, "olive" complexion. (And then not all. My grandmother from Palermo had strawberry blond hair and green eyes. My father was fair skinned and had blue eyes. My mother was dark skinned with black eyes. I have black hair and blue eyes, and have to wear #35 skin protection in the sun or I'll get burned, (not when I was younger--then I got an instant tan whenever I was in the sun) and all my family is from Sicily.
Italians come in all shades, shapes and political leanings. Sorry to say I had a cousin in Sicily who was a card carrying member of the Italian Fascista Party. Cringe.
Frist got taken out to the wood shed for his comments on social security. In the wood shed, Liddy Dole was legs wide open with a lip stick drawn arrow pointing to her twat. Bill went to work, but when his tongue gave out, he had to employ a dremel tool, swallowing most of it in his mouth and then descending on Liddy's "little man in a boat".
Unfortunately Bob Dole was cognizant that week. Suffice it to say he decided to depth charge the little man in the boat. He was only satisfied when large pieces of santorum floated to the surface.
Great post Desert Rat.
The U.S. military confirmed the shooting in a statement to The Associated Press. "At approximately 8:55 p.m. tonight, coalition forces assigned to the multinational force in Iraq fired on a vehicle that was approaching a coalition checkpoint in Baghdad at a high rate of speed," the U.S. announcement said. The statement, given to the AP in Baghdad by telephone, said that details of the incident were "unclear."
Bryan Whitman, a spokesman at the Pentagon, said Sgrena was being brought into U.S. military control at Camp Victory, the military base near Baghdad International Airport, when the shooting took place, the AP said. U.S. soldiers at the checkpoint tried to warn the vehicle, then shot the car's engine block when the driver did not stop, the U.S.Army's Third Infantry Division in Baghdad said in a statement to Reuters.
I'm of italian descent myself, and I have my grandmother's blue eyes.
A hundred miles further north, I'd've been of swiss descent.
Italy wasn't a country until a hundred or so years or so. The label "italian" tells you nothing about what someone looks like.
It is common in criminal law to designate everyone connected with a killing in an armed robbery as having committed murder. I think the same logic applies here. Once you have decided to go to war illegally, then if follows that all actions, however heroic, are also illegal.
Having said that, I do not blame the troops: in most cases it is not their choice to be in that hellhole. I blame the people promulgating the war. When they decided to illegally conduct a war of agression, then all actions are suspect. THEY are the ones who have done this: please do not lose sight of this.
As the logic is slightly twisted, let me state it again. If you conduct a war of aggression, then all actions, good and bad, are your fault. If you had no part in the decision making process and you are thrust into the situation, you must do whatever you can to make sure that you and your mates are safe. The responsibility lies squarely with those who precipitated the problem in the first place. To blame soldiers for trying to stay alive is nonsensical.
Uh oh,
In Rome, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi called on the United States to explain how U.S. forces in Iraq had killed an Italian agent and said someone had to take responsibility for the shooting.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?
tmpl=...er_warning_dc_3
Nobody talks like that to the bush crime family. By monday Silvio will be apologizing for the car getting in the way of the bullets.
Also I heard it was a heavy machine gun that fired on the car. If the car was armored might not have mattered.
And My Lai massacre here we come!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
My_...My_Lai_Massacre
That wasn't the troops fault. They didn't just decide to kill unarmed civilians. They were out of their fucking minds. Trapped in a shit hole where anything that moved was trying to kill them. Just like Iraq.
damn bebe,
that is some serious shit...
tell us some stories about what it was like when you, tricky dick, and FL Senator GA Smathers used to party in Biscayne Bay on the yacht...
NOBODY HERE IS BLAMING THE TROOPS.
Right, because that would be wrong!
It's not their fault if they have no right nor duty to question & disobey!
THEY DON'T HAVE THAT RIGHT!
They are not allowed nor required to disobey evil orders!
They must follow evil orders no matter what!
You don't blame a trained dog for killing on command, do you?!
You don't blame a killer robot for being programmed to kill, do you?!
Then don't blame the troops!
Because they are no better than killer robot dogs!
They do NOT have rights NOR responsibilities!
So quit treating them like they are human beings!
You denigrate their service by doing so!
Bastard!
Shaw--I saw Italians of every complexion , hair color and eye color in Rome. Granted, Rome is multinational and multicultural, but I'm sure many of those i saw with lighter features were as Italian as anyone else there.
Why are American citizens suspicious of what the US military says?
After a suicide bomber blows up a mess tent full of US military we hear reports it was a mortar or whatever, the investigation is ongoing and we only learn the facts days later.
The Italians get shot up and we learn in minutes that the Italians were speeding up to a checkpoint, the troops at the checkpoint fired warning shots in the air and flashed the lights on their vehichles before they fired "in an attempt to disaba\le" what "they thought was a suicide car bomber." The shooting was justified.
Has anyone heard "we need to wait for the results of the investigation?"
Le Monde is treating the US version of the incident with suspicion. They're not drawing any conclusions at this point, but they aren't buying into the US version.
Whenever this has happened in the past, no one bitched. This time, it is different.
What do you mean, no one bitched? I bitch every time I hear about an Iraqi family getting shot up for no reason. The reason people drive fast on those roads is the risk of hijackings and attacks.
But I'll wait to hear what the Italian survivors say before I make excuses for anyone.
And if I remember correctly, the Italian hostage who was killed by his kidnappers died like a hero, too.
DWD, hear hear.
Which is one of the reasons it infuriates me to hear people defend torture because if you don't, you're not supporting our troops.
There are a lot of decent kids out there getting killed over a small group of sadists the Pentagon thought it was clever to set loose in the prisons they thought it was clever to set up.
I can't take bebe rebozo anymore.
Godotbert--that's what the French are saying. But we're supposed to hate the French, right?
"welcome home soldier. here is a spatula and there is the fry-o-lator. see you at five o'clock. oh and by the way thanks for the killing, er, i mean protection of our freedoms"
americans don't even want to talk about the traumas of war. the authorities-that-be know that such traumas seriously erode public support for their activities. war cheerleaders keep themselves content by focusing on the good. but who is the ultimate victim of this silence,this inability to face the true horrors of war, it is the soldier who is expected to just "get on with it" when he gets home.
one day you are blowing heads open and the next day you are selling cars or flipping burgers. fuhhhck. shit, i don't blame the soldiers.
as eli posted on his blog the other day, this goes right to the very nature of authority. the myth of the noble and virtuous war hero vs. the very real traumas and horrors that these men and women are living through. war enthusiasts can scream and holler all they want when folks question that myth, but that doesn't change the reality that these soldiers on the ground are coming home with some serious wounds (mental and physical). a post post on your blog noting the heroic nature of "our troops" ain't gonna do shit for that reality.
Yeah, you're right. Probably ought to just keep shooting the innocents. Easier that way.
Dave
Well, flame me, but how would you be acting if you joined the National Guard, thinking you're basically gonna play boy scouts once a month, then find yourself in that hell, with your tour extented.
These guys thought they would be helping out in a national emergency, not a full out war.
Personally, I think if you join up, YOUR STUPID, but this isn't what they were barganing for.
I know me, and I would want to come home, alive.
So think twice before you judge, what may have been, some kids who were in fear of thier lives and panicked.
On the other hand maybe it was an assination.
Cracker don't know
There are a lot of decent kids out there getting killed over a small group of sadists the Pentagon thought it was clever to set loose in the prisons they thought it was clever to set up.
julia
Then let's support those who take on the sadists directly, shall we?
The fact of the matter is, I don't trust the Military brass to give an accurate account of what happened here. They have lied about every aspect of the invasion and covered up horrific abuses of prisoners and civilians. I'll hold back judgement till we here from the poor traumatized victim herself.
Why are American citizens suspicious of what the US military says?
because not all of them are drooling imbiciles.
Looks like we have a troll posting coments to slur the left.
Watch some whackjob wingnut blogger cite southpaws post as proof the left hates the troops.
The troops are exhausted and this shit will keep happening. Worse probably. Meanwhile we appear to have bribed off a few members of Sistani's coalition for damage control so an ineffective so-called government can hobble along until the whole thing blows into a civil war:
NYT 3/4/05 "Crack Appears in Shiite Alliance as 2 Iraqis Withdraw"
"Two newly elected politicians announced today that they were withdrawing from the fragile political alliance cobbled together by the country's most powerful Shiite cleric, marking the first notable fracture within the alliance.
The defections expose the vulnerability of the Shiite parties even as they are struggling to form a coalition government with other political groups, and showed the limits of the influence of Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, the cleric who assembled the alliance. The split signaled that any talks to form a new government will likely be protracted, as rivals to the Shiites try to take advantage of weaknesses in the alliance.
The divisions within the alliance bolster the chances of politicians like Ayad Allawi, the interim prime minister, to pull together a disparate coalition of parties to challenge the Shiites, who have the most seats in the new constitutional assembly. Dr. Allawi and others opposing the Shiites can now court the defectors and any allies they might bring with them from the Shiite coalition. . . . ."
So this is what "history's actors" have cooked up? Good God you couldn't trust these clowns to stage a Second Grade Thanksgiving Pageant.
Looks like we have a troll posting coments to slur the left.
surfdork
Right! We wouldn't want the left to look like it cares about troops enough to encourage them to disobey evil, immoral, illegal orders!
Fuck that noize!
We love war just as much as the right does!
Fucking anti-war trolls!
Go bother Justin Raimondo why don't you!
THE LEFT IS UNIFIED!
WE SUPPORT OUR OOPS!
S&S, I do.
I also support the kids who had no idea what they were getting into and landed in a place where they were sitting targets in a pointless war only their government after two years or so couldn't quite bring themselves to ask for the money to give them body armor in the federal budget or pony up more than $12k to their families if they die.
Money for tax cuts we got. Money to keep some nineteen year old from getting killed we don't.
I wouldn't do what those kids are doing.
On the other hand, they kept Hitler from washing his fat ass with my aunt.
the final act of Nicola Calipari, who by accounts died while acting as a human shield for Giuliana Sgrena.
This is the real tragedy of the story. His act of courage and bravery in extracting the journalist out of the hands of the insurgents only to be killed by "friendly fire" is beyond sad.
Why are American citizens suspicious of what the US military says?
Because they lie consistently, happily, and with great conviction. If they told the truth, then there would be a general revolution against the idiocy of their actions.
I wouldn't do what those kids are doing.
On the other hand, they kept Hitler from washing his fat ass with my aunt.
julia
But Hitler couldn't have done what he did without the help of men like Prescott Bush and Joe Kennedy.
Let's deal with our modern versions of those bastards first, shall we?
Trapped in a shit hole where anything that moved was trying to kill them. Just like Iraq.
hadenough
Not everything that moved was trying to kill US troops. Some might want to propagate this myth to rationalise killing innocents.
Most of the Vietnamese population just wanted to be out of the way of the US troops without having to be penned up in concentration camps *err.. strategic hamlet* and deprived of their lives, liberty and family property without due process... especially by an army that was supposedly protecting them from an enemy that was allegedly wanting to do the very things the US Army was actively pursuing.
He?
I suspect a man would be Nicolo.
hadenough-you're wrong. My Lai was a completely different situation. Forcing hundreds of women, children, and old people into ditches and shooting them in cold blood. Yes, it was the troops decision, and it was a war crime. I don't care how "scared" they were. They were the ones with the big guns, and they slaughtered a bunch of unarmed peasants.
Fuck Bush and the Liddy Santorum he rode in on.
They were the ones with the big guns, and they slaughtered a bunch of unarmed peasants.
Karin
Stop trying to make the left look bad!
THE HARVARD ECONOMIST THAT MADE A CAREER OUT OF ATTACKING THE NEW DEAL. ALSO THE AUTHOR OF THE TEXTBOOKS AND HANDBOOKS YOUR CHILDREN USE WHEN THEY TAKE A COURSE IN PUBLIC POLICY. WHY IS IT THAT EVERY TIME YOU TURN UP A BOOK ON PUBLIC ECONOMICS OR LAW AND ECONOMICS A RIGHT WING CRANK IS THE AUTHOR?
"but that doesn't change the reality that these soldiers on the ground are coming home with some serious wounds (mental and physical)."
cereal breath
Exactly. I admit to not having read the President's budget, but it sure would be interesting to know if funding for the VA has had to take a hit right along with all the other safety nets.
Karin,
I'm right.
Has anyone heard "we need to wait for the results of the investigation?"
Godotbert
Military self-investigations are worth less than shit.
god, how to say this with out beeing ofensive????
1. The mission of every army is to defend the country.
this means that volontary or drafted troops are beeing trained to defend - this usually involves killing.
As such it is fair to say that anyone who joins an army is willing and ready to kill.
Going to the army for education - thats cow feces and a big pile it is.
All skills one learns in the Army are related to killing, destruction and shock and awe treatment.
No one can claim the troops innocent of the cruelty and destruction of life and property in war as they are the ones inflicting it.
As a german citizen i know what i speak of - remember the Wehrmacht, the german footsoldiers and their inplications in the atrocities during the second worldwar?
The saying:"I just followed orders?
"I just followed orders" has no more value than it had then.
They are guilty just as my grandfathers were guilty of the death of every russian they killed till they got killed themselves in 42/43.
2. The italian journalist was on the socalled "IED Higway" on the road to an Army Station on their way to the Airport. You know the road everyone travels real fast as not to get hit by RPG's, IED's and whatnots.
3. There are to many incidents happing that are to similar to just be happenstance. So the world will propably agree with that CNN Reporter who said the US Forces are "targeting Journalists'.
BTW over 30 Journalist have been killed in the war since the beginning.
God I wish you would flood the streets chanting, screaming, dressed in black demanding your honour and dignity back.
it is time for you to give hope to the world, or the world will just cut america of.
you are no superpower, if you have ever been one, and you can not support yourselves with out the world
please ingore my grammar and typos, i try real hard .....8
Looks like we have a troll posting coments to slur the left.
surfdork
Yep, either a plant or somebody doing a great job at playing "useful idiot" for the wingnuts.
-
lefthawk, bigvic and cereal,
I can tell there's no military service between you--so before you criticize, go volunteer at a VA hospital and get some TRUE accounts from the guys and gals that were there. I think you'll have a different perspective
We were right.
Sometimes, when I am having a sixtie's moment, I think about our current situation in Iraq. For the life of me I cannot understand why anyone would want to emulate the clusterfuck of VietNam, but they have managed. Though it is not fought in the jungles of SE Asia, the natives are a group that bends with the winds of change. One day they could be your friends, the next day they could shoot you down.
VietNam was based upon a lie. VietNam was based upon the government actively lying to the people. VietNam was interfering in a civil war. Hell, the parallels are frightening and the question that begs an answer is this: Why in the hell did these fools want this?
lefthawk, bigvic and cereal,
I can tell there's no military service between you--so before you criticize, go volunteer at a VA hospital and get some TRUE accounts from the guys and gals that were there. I think you'll have a different perspective
You know, Anti-Empire, I agree with you about monied complicity in stuff that gets folks killed, but you know, I don't think we can write off anyone who didn't get the message.
There's an awful lot of time and money and complicity involved in making sure they don't get the message, and now they're in a situation where it's against the law to tell the boss to go fuck himself.
I'm not against those kids. I'm against the situation they're in and I'm against a lot of the stuff they're doing.
I think we have a responsibility to get them out, and I think if we make them the scapegoats of decisions that weren't theirs and that they don't have the right to oppose, we've lost them even if we manage to save them.
Go after war criminals, yes.
Do you really think those kids want to be there? Have you noticed that in a very serious recession the armed forces are way behind quota on enlistments?
Fuck the goddamned trolls and the dupes who play with them. The folks who are serving in the military with honor get my unmitigated respect. The bastards that take glee in capping civilians and torturing prisoners get my deep scorn. Those folks are unworthy of support of any kind.
before you criticize, go volunteer at a VA hospital and get some TRUE accounts from the guys and gals that were there. I think you'll have a different perspective
TL
True accounts? Like what?
"We voted for and support our President!" [tries to salute with amputated arm]
Those people got what they deserved.
I hope even more join them soon!
Anti,
Any military service??
THE RUDEST COMMENT IN THE WORLD
Is that your grandma, of wait it's your girlfriend..
THE RUDEST COMMENT IN THE WORLD
Is that your grandma, of wait it's your girlfriend..
Do you really think those kids want to be there? Have you noticed that in a very serious recession the armed forces are way behind quota on enlistments?
julia
1) Go to Canada.
2) Go to Jail.
3) Go to war and monkeywrench it.
Don't act like they don't have options.
Are they easy options?
I would think it would be easier to live with yourself knowing you did your best to avoid/sabotage war than that you were a sheep.
Anti,
Any military service??
Why in the hell did these fools want this?
To steal the oil during the confusion, they're nothing more than common thieves.
And where is all the missing taxpayer money .
Anti,
Any military service??
TL
Before I answer, let me ask you:
Have you ever been in the KKK?
If not, how dare you criticize them?
Because they lie consistently, happily, and with great conviction. If they told the truth, then there would be a general revolution against the idiocy of their actions.
Well said, DWD. And alvin too, everything they touch they fuck up.
They'll probably fuck up what's going on in Lebanon now, by gloating over it so much that it causes a backlash.
Oh Bebe, you do get me off... each and every time...
And the troll utters:
"...I'm not getting the reference..."
Diane:
a friend of mine has just recently made headway with his disability claim from the v.a., from vietnam-era service. it took 15 years to get them off their asses. a fucking parade and a pat on the back is useless. these folks coming back are going to need some serious help. whose going to help them, the "drown the government in the bathtub" republicans? ha ha ha.
what the fuck, why should i care? i hate america. in five years when we start seeing the first wave of homeless iraq war vets, i'll give 'em a nice pat on the back. you know, you gotta support those troops.
Anti, you know what?
At this point, you're in the same position as a libertarian pontificating about individual responsibility with the Fire Department on speed dial.
It's quite possible the soldiers behaved appropriately in that if, as claimed, the car was speeding towards a checkpoint then their actions are perfectly understandable. Or, even if their actions weren't really justified, it's still the kind of shitty mistake which is to be expected to happen more frequently than we'd like. It's a war zone.
Atrios, why don't you go and explain it the families of the murdered? You're an asswipe for rationalizing this. Bush benefits when people use that kind of logic to downplay the murders of his "soldiers."
Fuck you.
DWD,
"Why in the hell did these fools want this?"
Greed.
The oil money and feed for the military industrial complex.
Cralyle is making a fortune.
I like wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car...i/
Carlyle_Group
Anti, you know what?
At this point, you're in the same position as a libertarian pontificating about individual responsibility with the Fire Department on speed dial.
julia
Actually, julia, you're an anti-Nazi with a swastika armband.
so before you criticize, go volunteer at a VA hospital and get some TRUE accounts from the guys and gals that were there. I think you'll have a different perspective
TL
Don't lecture me about reality. You have no idea what my experiences are. How dare you be so presumptious.
If you saw the Frontline piece A Company of Soldiers,you could understand how this tragedy happened today. These young soldiers are victims in a neocon nightmare.
Yeah, shit happens....like lobbing a tank shell at the Al Rashid Hotel or sending a smart bomb down the smokestack of the Al Jazeera headquarters in Afganistan.
Simply mistakes; repeated over and over again.
None of us were there, so none of us knows what happened, although the most beleiveable hypothesis is that the car was waved through by the higher ups whose orders never made it down to the soldiers manning the barricades in time, several layers of command down...
I grow so tired of the childish he said she said bullshit the trolls spew around here. I'll grudgingly admit that Toby posesses slightly more intellect that most of his bretheren at times, and Pastabagel, I actually enjoy, but the rest of you are just like little trailer-park children unleashed in a museum in the big city, running about, screaming and shitting in the fountains.
And I must agree with my usual enemy Incognito, when I say the Liddy Dole bit needs to be retired. It's just gross.
We need to right the wrongs, fight the media, and stop the idiots in Washington on both sides of the aisle from selling what's left of this country away to the highest bidder.
and that's about all I have for tonight.
Yeah. I'm sort of known for that in blog circles.
ha ha I like it when bigvic gets riled.
why do people argue with trolls? please explain
Yeah. I'm sort of known for that in blog circles.
julia
PS - Prince Harry wants his costume back! 
You're cute.
hadenough, you think lining up an entire village and slaughtering them is comparable to shooting at a speeding vehicle that's coming at you, and possibly out to kill you?(assuming that's what happened)
That's fucked up.
And surfdork, if that is really you, I am talking about My Lai here. Calley was convicted in an American court. It's not a "leftist" position to say he was a war criminal.
bebe shouldn't retire.
Children,
Please, I am old enough to remember this shit the first time. My sophomore year in college, we had two young men just back from VietNam. One was a Marine who was highly decorated and believed we were doing the right thing, The other was a young man who was mentally dysfunctional because he could not live with the things that he had done and was extremely active in the antiwar movement. You know what? They were best friends.
There is a lesson here. It is far too easy to judge right and wrong from our perspective here in the States. If you are in a situation where your friends are being killed and maimed and the government is doing their level best to register cold indifference: you learn to do what you have to do to survive.
For us to say that they woulda shoulda coulda done something else is to minimize the effects of living in this disaster. So for Kim and Kootch, best friends because of their experiences, it is best to remember that blaming the weatherman for the weather simply does not make sense.
why do people argue with trolls? please explain
Hoyt C.
========
I have wondered at this myself. The only thing I can think of is that they're such an easy mark. It would make this place so much better if everyone could ignore them, but it doesn't seem to be possible.
Hiya, vic
Not only are Toby's Petzold, he is getting pretty fucking tiring himself.
Trolls are here to be insulted and denigrated at every opportunity.
Anyone who seriously argues with them is wasting breath and time.
bigvic,
The fact of the matter is, I don't trust the Military brass to give an accurate account of what happened here. They have lied about every aspect of the invasion and covered up horrific abuses of prisoners and civilians.
What did they lie about??Prisoner abuse. They behead, we humiliate and then court martial. You don't have a dog in the fight.
Le Monde is treating the US version of the incident with suspicion. They're not drawing any conclusions at this point, but they aren't buying into the US version.
Tish, you read French!
Oh hell, this isn't the militarym4m steam room, is it?
Jeebus H Christ in a monkey suit, am I embarrassed or what?
Do you really think those kids want to be there? Have you noticed that in a very serious recession the armed forces are way behind quota on enlistments?
julia
1) Go to Canada.
2) Go to Jail.
3) Go to war and monkeywrench it.
Don't act like they don't have options.
Are they easy options?
I would think it would be easier to live with yourself knowing you did your best to avoid/sabotage war than that you were a sheep.
Anti-Empire
I have to agree with this.
But, what if, you did end up there? Out of a sense of responsibility, you're in the guard, your buddies are going, you feel you have to go too, whatever?
Your in a couple of intense fire fights. You see your buddy's, the one you connected with, you see his brains splattered all over the inside of your vehicle.
You see the transsport a couple days later, in front of you, destroyed in an explosion. Body parts, screaming, burnt bodies.
What will you become, what will you do?
I agree, you join up, maybe you get what's coming, but, GOD DAMN, some fucking understanding and simpathy.
mistakes were made. people died. shit happens.
but at the end of the day why should the "security and stability" of the Islamic Republic of Iraq be compromised by the deaths of innocent civilians. when 100's of 1,000's die, all we can say is shit happens. without security and stability how do you expect us to establish Sharia as the "social" norm?
Oh yeah, hi bigvic!
Hey there, Ripely! Glad to see a pal and free thinker. How's tricks?
What did they lie about??Prisoner abuse. They behead, we humiliate and then court martial. You don't have a dog in the fight.
TL
Someone brought up the pilot that killed 20 Italians while hotdogging ... military justice is worthless.
and before you ask, I'm no psychiatrist, but I've worked a VA or two.
Hey, Blak!
Peace out, woadies.
lied about every aspect of the invasion and covered up horrific abuses of prisoners and civilians.
===
Prisoners, civilians, and their own troops. But we owe them the utmost reverence and loyalty.
I'll be right back, just gonna get a quickie with my sister.
Ever feel like saying "Fuck that week!" and nippin the grape all nite, vic? That's me, baby.
And my, aren't you looking like a sight for sore eyes tonite.
/shamless flirting
I would think it would be easier to live with yourself knowing you did your best to avoid/sabotage war than that you were a sheep.
Anti-Empire
some of them are 20 years old dude.
this is a case of poor leadership.
whatever one thinks of this war, or any war, this is being executed in an extremely poor fashion at the detriment of a great many people.
and the reality is those poor kids are coming back, sans the 1500, they are gonna be our homeless, psychologically damaged, have nots.
and the rest are gonna be our cops.
Here's an idea - let's see the interviews with the victims to get a clearer picture about what happened. Maybe there's even some video out there - the reporter is high profile.
Count me in the camp that wants the entire Wolfowitz clan jailed for war crimes, but claiming that they were shot up for the sake of shits and giggles is irresponsible at this time. (Note: italics indicate stress)
-
One more thing: How can you expect a young person to have the "Balls" to refuse a lawful order. I am fifty four years old now and I would not just do what someone said I should do. I have the benefit of a lifetime of making good and bad decisions to base my personal behavior upon. Most of these men and women being killed are children of 19-24. How can you realistically expect them to have the philosophical and experiential background to take an uneasy and unpopular moral stand? That is not even in the same continent as the truth.
Eli,
I just got an email from Kerchiefed P. Videodisc. Oh dear.
Hmm, that'd be kinda tough seeing as my sister lives 2,000 miles away from me, but thanks for trying!
But our gas is so cheap now, how can we ... oh wait... nevermind...
Maybe we should send Wolf Blitzer to investigate.
He'll give us an unbiassed report.
TL:
did george bush serve in a war? did dick cheney? did politician x who authorized and planned the war?
think they have hung around alot of v.a. clinics? think they sit down and have lots of heart to hearts with "the troops." politicians who pay lip service to "the troops" are useless. my point again:
"supporting the troops" is a load of bullshit. what does that mean? putting a sticker on your car? blogging about how awesome the war is? cheering along the parade route after we've "won?"
how the fuck do those things add up to
support. denying the ugliness and brutality of war is a lie. who does that lie service, the troops? or the people who wage wars in boardrooms?
Part of the blame must surely go to the military planners. Waving arms doesn't do much in the dark. What they should have at EVERY checkpoint is some kind of aimable flashing red light, just like they do at airport control towers. I don't think these checkpoints are visualy obvious otherwise.
military justice is worthless.
One instance out of thousands that YOU thought was wrong and the whole system is worthless--come on, you're smarter than that.
keep up the good work at the VA--they need it!
If the f'ing Italians don't like it, they can't just leave the coalition.
Well, just drive-bying for now, so anyone after this, it ain't me babe.
Good. Looks like some adults are in the house. May I suggest we talk to each other and ignore the flaming idiots? Thought so.
As a sykiatrits, I highly recommend it. Let's do it for Bubba. God rest his crusty little soul.
Someone forgot their J.
I just got an email from Kerchiefed P. Videodisc. Oh dear.
I am sooo envious right now.
'Night Blak! See you on another, less trolly day!
My sister moved 2,000 miles away just to get away from me. I guess she didn't like it when I slept in her bed with her growing up.
I heart you Blak. Have fun tonight. Be safe!
Bubba.
(stifling tears)
greeat site you have there desert rat
DWD
54? Here Too.
Well said.
*sigh*
This playing ping-pong with trolls bores the shit out of me. If anyone posts under my name, it ain't me.
Later 'gators.
IT IS NOW SCREAMINGLY OBVIOUS THAT EASON JORDAN WAS FOCED TO RESIGN FOR TELLING THE TRUTH !!!!
keep up the good work at the VA--they need it!
TL
Fuck yeah they need the help. Fucking repugs keep slashing the VA budget.
... but I went into peds.
Anyone who hasn't seen Babyblogging should, truly. At homepage. The pic is sort of foreshortened, so it's odd, but looks stylized. My eldest daughter is the photographer this time.
some of them are 20 years old dude.
So what? You're saying they're too dumb to know better? I've seen younger kids protest this illegal war, but I'm supposed to have sympathy for an adult who's supposedly too stupid to think for themselves.
I have no sympathy for such dolts. Natural selection and all that...
One more thing: How can you expect a young person to have the "Balls" to refuse a lawful order.
DWD
Lest the entire left forget...
THIS IS AN ILLEGAL WAR!
NOTHING ABOUT IT IS LEGAL!
FORGET THAT FACT AND YOU MIGHT AS WELL MARCH INTO THE OVENS NOW!
supporting the troops" is a load of bullshit. what does that mean? putting a sticker on your car? blogging about how awesome the war is? cheering along the parade route after we've "won?"
how the fuck do those things add up to
support.
No--it means geting into a VA hospital and spending some time with the guys and gals who need our SUPPORT. Try it--I guarantee you'll come back for more and they'll appreciate it.
This is Vietnam (and the Swifties) all over again. If you say the government and military leadership has put the troops in an impossible position, then somehow it's the *troops* that we're calling war criminals.
Can't get it, or won't get it? Does it really matter?
David E.,
I was thinking that as well.
Ripley,
You're my million dollar baby! Heheh.
Gene 214 asked the relevant question. If this can happen to an Italian journalist, how often does it happen to ordinary Iraqis and without us hearing about it?
It happens too often to count. But as Tommy Franks said, "We don't do body counts."
This Bubba thing is really hitting tigricita hard.
Fear of terrorism is to the 2000s what fear of communism was to the 50s. McCarthyism and imagining commies hiding under the bed led to Vietnam. Now there are Islamic terrorists around every corner and in every cupboard. So the people follow their leader blindly into an Iraq war.
Make no mistake, America is circling the drain.
No--it means geting into a VA hospital and spending some time with the guys and gals who need our SUPPORT. Try it--I guarantee you'll come back for more and they'll appreciate it.
TL
So I can listen to them regale me with bullshit about their brave comrades?
Fuck that shit with a prosthetic limb!
They got themselves where they are.
Let them deal with it!
SUPPORT THEIR VICTIMS!
Death beckons... nobody needs any outside assistance.
Bush speaks, Satan applauds and holds up an ink stained finger.
(actually, I don't mind calling the Abu Ghraibists war criminals, but it's staggeringly naive to think the buck stopped there)
Fuck yeah they need the help. Fucking repugs keep slashing the VA budget.
What's that got to do with you and I helping out?
Bubba.
(stifling tears)
watertiger
A cold lobster salad with a few wedges of sweet grapefruit would be pretty welcome right about now..
-
Shit happens
Only one death...a light day for most Iraqis.
I blame wolfowitz.
but now that the Monk season finale is coming up on USA we are so elsewhere.
see ya on the latenight thread, bitches!
feh.
troll says it here, troll goes to the Free Republic and says someone said it here. No-one checks.
To live is to do battle with trolls -Ibsen
I thought Wolfowitz was going to head up the Wierd Bank
Moving from military imperialism to global economic imperialism.
It's so comforting to see my friend move up.
IT IS NOW SCREAMINGLY OBVIOUS THAT EASON JORDAN WAS FOCED TO RESIGN FOR TELLING THE TRUTH !!!!
All caps and bold even.
I FUCKING HEAR YOU
Gonna have to figure out how to turn the sound down on this thing.
But the answer was always
yes
I do not know whether the troops shooting up the Italians at the checkpoint were justified or not.
I do know that the immediate response by the military with the "facts" that seem to justify what happened is unprcedented when compared to the time needed for other reports of "facts" by the military.
No one is questioning the bravery of American troops.
This has become such a knee jerk response by republicans when questions are raised about American foreign policy under Bush II it has become disconcerting.
In fact, this "you hate the troops" retort resembles the over zealous response you would expect to hear from a closeted homosexual man, strenuously insisting on his ardent heterosexuality and demeaning gays in an effort to hide his own personal doubts.
Oh wait, they do that too . . .
Yes, Eli. It does matter. We have folks in military service who are following confusing and irrational orders. Lots of soldiers are suffering conflicts of conscience and moral confusion. Fuck. I've seen this play out before. It leads to suicide, mental depression and homelessness. It is no laughing matter.
IT IS NOW SCREAMINGLY OBVIOUS THAT EASON JORDAN WAS FOCED TO RESIGN FOR TELLING THE TRUTH !!!!
The Truth will cut you loose!
Those Brits... are they "dry," or what?
This, from The Guardian's account of the checkpoint shooting: "After countless shootings over the past two years, Iraqis have learned to approach US checkpoints cautiously."
A little further down: "Speaking to the Guardian last night, Il Manifesto's foreign editor, Angela Pascucci, rejected suggestions that Sgrena had been targeted by the US because she had written about abuses at Abu Ghraib prison."
As far as "blaming the troops" is concerned, well... try Googling "American troops Iraq trigger happy." Just try it. It'll keep you reading for hours. And hours. And hours.
Most of it's from British sources. Brit troops seem not to have a universally high regard for the discipline and professionalism of their American comrades-in-arms.
Just sayin'
The reason I do not argue with Trolls is that it is simply an exercise in self-gratification.
On the other hand, if there are still some people out there who are projecting their own mental constructs on immature young men and women: please, think for a change.
My son is twenty years old. He knows everything. My suspicion is that it will take him about fifteen years to figure out that he does not. To him of the incomplete development, everything is simple and easy. Don't like the war, don't fight in the war. But it is not that simple. For us of the grey hair and expanded waistlines, it becomes a question of critical importance. But I cannot tell someone who knows everything that they do not. (Though I often try) It is their task to find out.
Truth is the ultimate defense.
Greenspan comes under unprecedented political fire
By Kevin G. Hall, Knight Ridder Newspapers
WASHINGTON - Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan came under political fire this week as never before in his 18-year career.
The Senate's top Democrat, Nevada's Harry Reid, Thursday called the central bank chief "one of the biggest political hacks we have in Washington." Reid charged that Greenspan had called for fiscal discipline when Democrats ran Washington but is more tolerant of the government debt run up by President Bush, a fellow Republican.
rest here
dKos gets a nod in the story, albeit in a left-handed way.
Yes, Eli. It does matter. We have folks in military service who are following confusing and irrational orders.
I was talking about the trolls and right-wingers who spout this "Libruls hate our troops!" malarkey, and then get all upset when a troop asks why he has to scavenge for armor. Do they know they're full of shit, or are they just blindly repeating what Oxymoron told them because he is more infallible than God?
Many people in combat kill, rape and maim; many, many of those who are killed, raped, and maimed have no weapons, are frail oldsters, young children, even babies. The monstrous within us is released during the fear, anger, and hormones that overwhelm our reason and senses in the thick of battle. Long afterward in the memories of survivors of battlefield crimes guilt and self-loathing disturb the sleep and pique the conscience of many who were guilty of those crimes. As a self-defense mechanism, many veterans celebrate their patriotism, their bravery, their devotion to duty. These same people feel challenged by people and ideas that penetrate their self-defense and attack anyone who attempts to insist on truth as traitors, cowards, or ingrates. Such is the price of selling one's soul. Beware of any weird cult which promises success, power, prestige, world travel, at the price of your mind. Mr. Kerry knew this once. When he returned from Vietnam he testified before the Senate foreign relations committee that American troops had "raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to genitals and turned up the power, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians [and] razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ganghis Khan" (g.younge@guardian.co.uk). May be that he has not forgotten. The message is probably too harsh for the tender ears of guilt-ridden veterans or of patriots at any price or of Rolling Thunder members.
But the honest will admit that there's no way to peace. Peace is the way. And it takes high courage and a willingness to accept denigration and even ignominious death to walk that walk.
Blue fingers do not a democracy make; no Osama; no protections for civilization's artifacts or library documents; no consistent electricity; no pure water or sewer; no adequate hospitals, no gasoline. Consider the murdered, the mangled, the maimed, the tortured. Consider the minds of their loved ones. Consider the costs of the war in battered U.S. honor and commitments, a broken Western alliance, a shredded United Nations and a scarred Bill of Rights. Think of the acid now seething in the souls of America's warniks. Think of the attacks against our freedoms wrought by Patriot I & II. Think of the government's control of our formerly free press. Think of how Saddham told the truth: there never were any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Killing journalists certainly silences their voices.
Ripley,
You're my million dollar baby! Heheh.
bigvic
um
does this mean euthenasia is next for poor dear Ripley? Tune in tomorrow to find out! (ominous music-DAH dah Dahhhh)
Go bother Justin Raimondo why don't you!
justin raimondo the pathetic Penn junior?
haw haw. please, we have better things to do...
The George Bush (I wish it were my) Theme Song:
It’s all the same, only the names will change
Everyday it seems we’re wasting away
Another place where the faces are so cold
I’d drive all night just to get back home
I’m a cowboy, on a steel horse I ride
I’m wanted dead or alive
Wanted dead or alive
Sometimes I sleep, sometimes it’s not for days
And the people I meet always go their separate ways
Sometimes you tell the day
By the bottle that you drink
And times when you’re all alone all you do is think
I’m a cowboy, on a steel horse I ride
I’m wanted dead or alive
Wanted dead or alive
I walk these streets, a loaded six string on my back
I play for keeps, ’cause I might not make it back
I been everywhere, still I’m standing tall
I’ve seen a million faces an I’ve rocked them all
I’m a cowboy, on a steel horse I ride
I’m wanted dead or alive
I’m a cowboy, I got the night on my side
I’m wanted dead or alive
Wanted dead or alive
Bring 'em on! (Rummy, get some troops out there to cover me)
SteveLG
Damn.
In fact, this "you hate the troops" retort resembles the over zealous response you would expect to hear from a closeted homosexual man, strenuously insisting on his ardent heterosexuality and demeaning gays in an effort to hide his own personal doubts.
Oh wait, they do that too . . .
Well, except when they're defending Fine Upstanding Gay Americans like Bulldog against us evil witch-hunting homophobic liberals.
A cold lobster salad with a few wedges of sweet grapefruit would be pretty welcome right about now..
(opens fridge door to check up on isurgents in fruit drawer)
Imagine an American journalist taken captive in Iraq, shown pleading for her life on tape, released and on her way home when Italian troops shoot her and kill the man who protected her. You don't think Americans would be outraged? Think anybody would be saying "fog of war"? You bet your ass we wouldn't.
Think if the Brits gunned down Jessica Lynch anybody would say "what a shitty mistake"?
No--it means geting into a VA hospital and spending some time with the guys and gals who need our SUPPORT. Try it--I guarantee you'll come back for more and they'll appreciate it.
TL
couldn't agree with you more. i just looked up va hospitals with my region.
my problem is with the rhetorical twisting that occurs between "support the troops" and "support war." there is a vast distinction and some seek to blend the two in order to justify their belief in war. but really it's just rhetoric, fucking hot air blown around in order to fool people into thinking that one must support and sanction a war, or be relegated to hating the individuals who fight and die in the war. that is a flaccid lie, repeated endlessly by folks who support war and seek to smear their critics. i care deeply about the people who are being destroyed by this war (americans, iraqis and all others in between), otherwise i could give a fuck. i think volunteering in the v.a. would be a good thing.
Hey, is someone trying to put me down in the prime of my alleged life???
Man, I hate that... totally hate it...
DWD,
the military didn't want this.
they knew what was up, they wanted 500k troops, a big bombing campaign, max force in, total public support, and a real exit strategy a la the powell/weinberger doctrine.
they could have handled this fine if allowed.
However, Rumsfeld, CHeney, and the rest of idiots who claim "never let the politiicans interefere with the military" decided they were smarter than the military and went in without overwhelming force, without a long bombing campaign, without strong publci support, and without an exit strategy.
I suspect that they think THEY could have won in VIetnam if only THEY had been in charge then, thus, they think they know better, and they never learned the lessons of VIetnam.
Now, they are stuck knee deep in the shit, and they know what happened in VIetnam and they desperately want to avoid a similar outcome now...
So, that is why we are in the mess we are in...
cold lobster salad with a few wedges of sweet grapefruit would be pretty welcome right about now..
Whoa....Bubba and the terrorists.
DWD, thank you. Mine is still young enough that I can protect her from most of her mistakes. I just hope I can teach her enough to keep her safe when she's not.
watertiger,
Oh, how sweet Bubba tugs at our heart strings. *SOB* Give me a moment here. Must pull self together. Ahhhh.
"I wWill Remember you.."
Awwww, sobbing city. Bubba!!!!
Why is Amerika not enraged?
Most university campuses are quiet.
Kids are worried about GPAs, not about the destruction of the world.
Most people outside the US wonder why we are so sheeplike.
We are in deep shit and nobody cares
So is anyone coming to the 'Burgh for Bubba's funeral? Should I get the sofabed ready? (beddy?)
We have folks in military service who are following confusing and irrational orders. Lots of soldiers are suffering conflicts of conscience and moral confusion. Fuck.
How do you know this? Is this from the interviews you conducted at the VA? I'm interested in your sources.
Make no mistake, America is circling the drain.
M
America, or rather the United States of America, will never go down the drain.
That sucking sound you hear is Bush and the neocons and all thier ilk, going down the drain.
This country is based on good shit (couldn't figger out princibills), and will recover from the this temporary backwards slide.
Steveeboy, no major disagreement here. I am just saying that to expect young people to have the sensibility of old people is simply ridiculous.
The flip side of the argument is just repulive. "Here comes that Italian journalist, can't wait to whack her." No, no one said that or even thought that and no one gave an order for that to happen.
cold lobster salad with a few wedges of sweet grapefruit would be pretty welcome right about now..
====
Oh my god.
I'm kinda in 'n out tonight. Who the hell said this? (channelling Homer)
Ggghhhaaaahhhhhh........
Sorry, Bobo.
Watertiger:
But the charge that he's become "a partisan hack" appears to reflect the deepening and increasingly bitter partisanship in Washington more than it does any growing tendency by Greenspan to be a Republican first and an economist second.
Doesn't it just fucking figure. Somewhere in the story, its all the Dems fault. We're too damn partisan.
Well, except when they're defending Fine Upstanding Gay Americans like Bulldog against us evil witch-hunting homophobic liberals.
Eli
We're also anti-Semites, when the issue is Lieberman or the neo-cons.
I wonder how many baby boomers are telling their kids how wrong all of this is. No offense to present baby boomers - I just wonder what the ratio is.
John Dwyer, is there any hope? I feel like opening a vein after reading that post.
So is anyone coming to the 'Burgh for Bubba's funeral? Should I get the sofabed ready? (beddy?)
I'll bring the Yartzeit candles.
Yes, we are based on good shit
and a lot of bad shit.
We need to clean out the stables before we drown in shit.
Eli,
I will be your guest from hell. Get the sofabed ready. Just promise me your mom's carpet will not be there.
True story: My M-I-L scoured the earth to find GOLD SHAG CARPET to replace the doggie pissed carpet in her hall and den. Jeepers.
We're also anti-Semites, when the issue is Lieberman or the neo-cons.
NYMary
=====
And don't forget, if we're of arab heritage, we're not really semites, and if we're jewish, we're self-hating. We can't win. Literally.
Think how amused the hostage takers must be: they release the jounalist and she becomes a victim of the "Coalition Forces." Much hooting in the tent tonight.
Our troops are as much victims as those in the tragic vehicle. The incompetence of the military and political leadership is astounding.
Isn't it just as easy to "sneak" a car full of bombs into a military check point if it is going slow and looks like any other regular car rather than calling attention to itself by going fast and driving erratically?
Do suicide bombers always give themselves away by driving fast?
Hmmmmmm.....?
Journalist suicider program related activities.
We're also anti-Semites, when the issue is Lieberman or the neo-cons.
Damn, I almost forgot about that. I must commence half-hating my semi-semitic self right now!
I'll bring the Yartzeit candles.
(Unseen by all, before going in to the pot, Bubba clamps his chitenous hand over McCoy’s forehead and says, “Remember...”)
So, that is why we are in the mess we are in...
steveeboy
I doo soooo hope you're not ginning up the old 'stabbed-in-the-back' complaint.
Once we began this odious, atrocious international farago, ther was never a way to "win" it. "maximum force" would have done notheing more than maim, mutilate, and murder several tens of thousands more Iraqis.
you're quite correct in one key respect: US culpability in the deaths of countles thousands of innocent civilians is equal and more or less equivalently criminal...
I'll bring the Yartzeit candles.
I'll bring the lemons and butter.
It does seem to happen quite a bit in Iraq, as I saw a program on IFC where journalists from around the globe were shot at, even several being killed. By the troops who were previously told that they were in certain areas and hotels - Do Not Fire Upon.
Yeah right! The embeds were the safe ones, who would tell the Repugnicants story. If you were acting independently (just other countries reporters) you took your life into your hands.
As soon as I find out the programs name, I'll post back
bigvic,
I imagine it's rough to find gold shag capeting these days. Good thing she wasn't looking for burnt orange or avocado.
Heywood
Noone on the campus knows the problem exists, because the kids and even their parents don't see that there is a problem.
The average person in America is too busy keeping the credit cards paid, the kids in school, the lawn mowed, the car replaced every three years, the boss happy, and watches a newscast once or twice a week. They love their NFL and their American Idol, they are equally as likely to have voted for Kerry or Bush or not voted at all, and they are simply too busy to keep up with all the bullshit that happens on a day to day basis in Washington DC and the rest of the world.
Yes, they are willingly, blissfully ignorant of these issues, and their kids in school are too busy trying to graduate to notice. Not all of them, of course, but I suspect it will take a draft to really get them to react. I wasn't there, but I suspect that campus radicalism in the 60's didn't really take off until the draft became a reality.
I suppose I'm getting in late but this is lunacy.
So, we don't like the taking of hostages then we try to kill them?
Sorry, I know it was a great big fuck-up and for once we can't blame BushCo but still.
My sympathies to the family.
.
Anyone remember the little Iraqi girl, about 5 years old standing in the lights crying inconsolably covered by her parents blood and brains because they too "drove toward a US patrol at a high rate of speed and didn't stop despite repeated warnings to do so?"
You would think after countless, I'm sorry, uncounted episodes like this drivers in Iraq would have learned by now.
I wonder how many baby boomers are telling their kids how wrong all of this is. No offense to present baby boomers - I just wonder what the ratio is.
Ripley
My son tells me, before I tell him.
Are you saying someone in thier 50's, with a kid that is in his 20's, like what, the kid is stupid?
You youn'uns!
Good evening my Moonbat Bitches!
I see your all salvating at the tragedy in Iraq. Have you no shame?
I will be your guest from hell. Get the sofabed ready. Just promise me your mom's carpet will not be there.
Excellent. You may have to double up with watertiger. (Mmm...)
No, I have nice neutral gray carpet, very unobjectionable. But maybe I should fire up the lava lamp and reinflate my loveseat in the shape of the back of a pink '50s Cadillac, just to improve the mood a little.
To live is to do battle with trolls -Ibsen
julia
To Do Is To Be - Sartre
To Be Is To Do - Descartes
Dooby Dooby Doo - Sinatra
Dusty, but a favorite.
-
"Even in the most dangerous inner cities in America, you don't expect the police to shoot your car."
Jeffers - shame on you. Where in America do security forces - army or police - get atttacked by suicide bombers and IED's every day. your over simplification is shameless.
I'm only 38 and I've had my bellyful of this society.... this living with other people... this "hey, forget you - what about me and no, you can't ask the same question".
I'm a sweep of the second hand from offing myself or moving to the woods. Honestly, it's become so repulsive that I want to grab people and shake them or just run away.
This is God's great plan? I can't even comprehend that this is what he had in mind.
We are the saddest species.
I imagine it's rough to find gold shag capeting these days.
Depends. Does she live in a red state?
Hey, WGG!
spork_incident,
"for once we can't blame BushCo"
Why not?
An older friend of mine still has her 70s' Harvest Gold color scheme for her kitchen. I guess she expects if she waits long enough, it will come back in style.
Anyone remember the little Iraqi girl, about 5 years old standing in the lights crying inconsolably covered by her parents blood and brains because they too "drove toward a US patrol at a high rate of speed and didn't stop despite repeated warnings to do so?"
You would think after countless, I'm sorry, uncounted episodes like this drivers in Iraq would have learned by now.
It's not acceptable to shoot at a fast moving car WHEN YOU ARE AN OCCUPATION FORCE!!! These "accidents" have been occuring for quite some time now. A European is killed, and everyone pays attention. If we want to build "good will" with our troops, they have to bear the burden of the questionable situation. While that truly, truly reeks for them, it is absolutely necessary; otherwise the local population will hate them, and fear them. What does "speeding at the road block" mean? Ten miles over the legal limit? Twenty? Thirty?
ditto Ripley
An older friend of mine still has her 70s' Harvest Gold color scheme for her kitchen. I guess she expects if she waits long enough, it will come back in style.
Incognito
Brady Bunch orange is the way to do it properly.
oh, I was saying nothing about the kids, they have nothing to do with this, and they are made into cannon fodder precisely becasue they are pliable and easily led to do things an older person would not.
they are not to blame in this, you send the 82nd airborne or some devil dog assault force somewhere and you aren't going to make many friends.
I wouldn't even hang out with those people drinking in a bar in fayetteville, NC or any other base and I was in the USAF.
they are trained killers, period.
when they have nothing to kill they beat up others or each other.
the idea of them winning hearts and minds or acting as "peacekeepers" is absurd.
by now they are far into shoot first, ask questions later mode because they don't want to die for nothing.
that is the reality of the mess the right wing has delivered to us.
all because Bush the pussy, that couldn't even show up to fly fighter planes is overcompensating for failing to do his duty when it was his turn.
ditto for the rest of the chicken hawks, they are just older versions of jonah fatboy goldberg.
Sorry for the double post. I hit refresh by mistake.
Gordon, I'm serious about offing myself. Most of my stuff is gone.
If I send you my address, will you come to my door and kill me? Death means nothing to you, right? So, when I hit my edge, can you be here in 24 hours and put me to death?
Seriously....
bigvic,
I imagine it's rough to find gold shag capeting these days. Good thing she wasn't looking for burnt orange or avocado.
NYMary
She said shag.
OK Ok that was outta character.
.
hadenough -
I'm not in a mood to ascribe every bad thing to the current government.
I know you can argue otherwise. And be right.
Right now I don't want to hear it.
Peace.
.
JPZ, I think you're right.
I'm a sweep of the second hand from offing myself or moving to the woods.
Too late, The Woods™ are now the exclusive property of Wal-Mart.
Simple lesson - OUT NOW!!!
The Italian died for one simple reason.
Too many video games.
Figure it out if you can, unless someone else has mentioned something along these lines above.
MYOB'
.
this living with other people... this "hey, forget you - what about me and no, you can't ask the same question".
The concept of other people as actual people has become completely alien to everybody. It's like everyone else is just a seatfiller or a Star Trek redshirt.
Doesn't it ever occur to anybody that *they* might be the extra?
Blame America First™, a product of MoveOn.org.
this is indicative of a very particular freeper mindset (if you can call something held by someone mindless a mindset. maybe just "programming", although that too is generous).
first of all, it assumes that we who are speaking are NOT AMERICANS.
secondly, it is the childish whining of people terminally frightened of taking responsibility for anything, especially for crimes against humanity.
word to the un-wise: we ARE Americans. and we, unlike you, seek to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for American actions. not bend over for totalitarian father-figures who spout the correct religious buzzwords to make our righteous dicks hard.
taking responsibility means admitting when you are in error and seeking to correct it. the man currently in the driver's seat is only one of many errors we seek to correct. because we know that in a free society, no one will do it for us.
maybe they'll teach you that in US history 101, when you graduate to the 10th grade next year.
Actually, Incog, I almost said I'd be your roommate in Canada... but I'm serious.
Take me off the fuckin grid, baby. I love you all... but this fuckin "civilization" we've developed... sorry, I'm not one of those dancers, that's all I can tell you...
"You would think after countless, I'm sorry, uncounted episodes like this drivers in Iraq would have learned by now."
Some of them have learned; they learned about our true intentions and complete disregard for human life. They tend to drive the cars that "shoot back." Someday, Kyle, they will find you.
Simple lesson - OUT NOW!!!
Eli Stephens | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 10:42 pm | #
And what will that accomplish jackass?
Stick to your talking points, free thoughts not for you.
I wasn't there, but I suspect that campus radicalism in the 60's didn't really take off until the draft became a reality.
gob
the draft was a reality all along, in my youth.
I enlisted in the USAF in Sept 1964 PRICISELY to avoid being drafted into the Army or the Marines after the Gulf of Tonkin "incident." never tested below 99th%ile, never recorded a grade higher than a C in hs...No college would accept me with my record, so I enlisted to avoid the draft.
google the draft lottery, and the draft in general. it's fascinating... bill clinton apparently did NOT "dodge" the draft , except i n the sense that one 'dodges' any other kind of metaphorical 'bullet.' He submitted to the draft lottery, and his number didn't come up, from all i can tell...
just sayin...
Too late, The Woods™ are now the exclusive property of Wal-Mart.
And then, damnit! People like JPZ come along and make me remember the comedy. Damn you, JP, daaaaaaamn you!!!!
Hey Ripley
FWIW
I think it's all pretty shitty too.But
Malone: You said you wanted to get Capone. Do you really wanna get him? You see what I'm saying is, what are you prepared to do?
Eliot Ness: Anything and everything in my power.
Malone: And THEN what are you prepared to do? If you open the can on these worms you must be prepared to go all the way because they're not gonna give up the fight until one of you is dead.
Eliot Ness: How do you do it then?
Malone: You wanna know how you do it? Here's how, they pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send on of his to the morgue! That's the Chicago way, and that's how you get Capone! Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that?
Eliot Ness: I have sworn to capture this man with all legal powers at my disposal and I will do so.
Malone: Well the Lord hates a coward. Do you know what a blood oath is Mr. Ness?
Eliot Ness: Yes.
Malone: Good, cause you just took one.
Ripley,
If I send you my address, will you come to my door and kill me? Death means nothing to you, right? So, when I hit my edge, can you be here in 24 hours and put me to death?
Seriously....
Don't you dare, you old freethinker, you.
The best place to start is the story of Baghdad's Palestine Hotel, where on April 8, 2003, an American tank crew killed two journalists and wounded three others. The U.S. military never took testimony from a single journalist who was there, and never disciplined any military personnel. It is inconceivable that the massive presence of journalists at the hotel for three weeks prior to the shelling, which was known by any TV viewer and by the Pentagon itself, could have passed unnoticed. Yet this presence was never mentioned to the troops in the field or marked on the maps used by artillery support soldiers. The question is whether this information was withheld deliberately, out of contempt or through negligence. Extracts from Additional Protocol I (1977) of the 1949 Geneva Conventions concerning the protection of victims of international armed conflict:
Chapter III - Journalists
Article 79 - Measures of protection for journalists
Journalists engaged in dangerous professional missions in areas of armed conflict shall be considered as civilians within the meaning of Article 50, paragraph 1.
They shall be protected as such under the Conventions and this Protocol, provided that they take no action adversely affecting their status as civilians, and without prejudice to the right of war correspondents accredited to the armed forces to the status provided for in Article 4 A (4) of the Third Convention.
They may obtain an identity card similar to the model in Annex II of this Protocol. This card, which shall be issued by the government of the State of which the journalist is a national or in whose territory he resides or in which the news medium employing him is located, shall attest to his status as a journalist.
The problem, of course, is what status do Iraqi civilians have in the eyes of the US military? Does the typical soldier think of the morality of killing his "target" before he pulls the trigger?
Ripley
Relax...the rapture is coming !!!
You would think after countless, I'm sorry, uncounted episodes like this drivers in Iraq would have learned by now.
klyde
Yet it doesn't stop. War, strike that, invasion is hell. So much senseless death.
Usually when things gets this fucked up in Monopoly, someone puts a finger under one corner of the board and points to the sky.
thanks kono
It's not just the Bush thing, gob. It's "society" in general.
I want a little cabin in the woods, two dogs, and enough money to deal with "the English". The rest of "civilization" can rot.
I know, I should be "getting ahead" and all... but fuck this world we've built, sometimes eh?
Too late, The Woods™ are now the exclusive property of Wal-Mart.
And then, damnit! People like JPZ come along and make me remember the comedy. Damn you, JP, daaaaaaamn you!!!!
Ripley
Or there's always a stiff drink - or some weed - or something....
You can't give up now. We need all the allies we can get.
To anyone who blames the driver; you are idiots. A) This lady was just kidnapped. Often, people are kidnapped directly from their cars. B) Iraq is filled with exploding devices, mauraders, and other dangerous things. People have to drive fast there. C) You don't even know how fast they were travelling. D) US troops should not have dictatorial power over Iraqi roads.
Ripley, things are going to get better and you'll be glad you stayed around. I know dealing with repukes and what's going on is really draining. They really represent the worst in human beings.
Hola, aguatigre...
back from another excursion into fantasy land...
movies are wierd, believe me folks, wierd...
i think i am beginning to prefer that fantasy domain, though... we got cut loose tonight for the first time all week in time to hear the nightly 'news' on NPR on the radio on the way home from our day in 1876...
i was, finally, sorry i had to leave...
how goes the battle here?
Oh, and would it be cruel to tell Gordon to fuck himself?
I thought not.
.
spork_incident,
"I'm not in a mood to ascribe every bad thing to the current government.
I know you can argue otherwise. And be right."
You are an idiot.
Shitbags like Old Sheets are pigs in shit. He feeds off these tradegies.
MYOB'
.
MYOB
Only if you mean the airforce.
If your implying that video games desensitise kids to violence, well from my experience, thats wrong.
My son grew up on those games, I even helped get thru the hard parts when he was younger.
When he had a chance to shoot a real gun at 10 yrs old, he cried.
He understood, and new the difference.
Maybe it's just some people.
.
They have NO idea what the fuck they're doing, do they?
Like their commander in thief!
in a perfect world, we wouldn't need toilets.
We'd just ask right wingers to open their mouths and they'd have to let us use those disgusting orafices of theirs intstead.
My dinner was delicious. It was a plate of my own shit with a glass of chianti. It was a good year, 2005. My shit, I mean.
My first sober Friday night since forever.
It's OK, I guess.
how goes the battle here?
It's hard, WGG. Trolls, name stealers, and people not acting like their normal selves. The cat thread is a much happier thread.
I've got beer and music right now. But man.... I honestly just don't understand what motivates people.
Ok, I've bloviated (that's freepspeak for liberals saying Anything) long enough.
We'd just ask right wingers to open their mouths and they'd have to let us use those disgusting orafices of theirs intstead.
Jeremiah Elias | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 10:54 pm | #
That thing about freedom of speech bothers you doesn't it moonbat?
"Has anybody had the intestinal fortitude to go over to freeperville and see what they're saying about this?
flory "
Naw, I just ate. I can't take that much stupidity right after dinner!
hadenough amuses us:
I know you can argue otherwise. And be right."
You are an idiot.
Heavens! I wrote that "hadenough" is generally right but hadenough disagrees!
OK, hadenough. You're wrong about everything.
.
I like to fish, as you may have seen from my homepage. It's a good way to take my mind off of my urge to touch little boys.
Ripley,
I guess I am with you, my friend. I think I will move to upstate NY and try to convince NYMary and her children to forgo this morbid fascination with POP and turn to the real music.
Gosh, that was a lot more flippant than I wanted it to be. I just was channel surfing for a moment (usually the extent of my TV viewing, it is like having a cavity - your tongue just has to determine if it is still there) and caught a little of Scarborough Country. What a frigging mess! They had some blonde bimbette on there exclaiming that Christians had the right to determine the nature of the government because they are the people. (Well, not all of them. Seems to me there are a lot of people who find their hate inspired version of Christianity to be more than a little offensive)
So, what is one to do? I am going to start a new book, stop even talking to Republicans, and work as much as I can for change. If I feel that that ultimately we are not ever going to have a chance to change this place (and I am almost there now) then I am leaving. There has to be some place where logic and kindness can supplant "Belief" and hatred of all who are not like you.
Terry,
We see it for what it is - a tradegy.
Your kind see it as a political oppurtunity.
Mena, on trolls:
It would make this place so much better if everyone could ignore them, but it doesn't seem to be possible.
Why are you so bigoted? You reflexively reject the possibility that debating or arguing or even doing the dozens with those you call trolls might actually benefit you in lots of ways. For one, it might demonstrate that you are actually as committed to free speech as you almost certainly hold yourself out to be. For another, it's a chance to sharpen your skills. You might even learn something some time.
How about trying to understand how other people think? In my case, you would surely come to realize how utterly wrong you are about this President's foreign policy.
"Shitbags like Old Sheets are pigs in shit. He feeds off these tradegies."
That's a bright, thoughtful argument. While I don't agree entirely, I do appreciate the sophisticated, nuanced manner of debate you have. The best part is that you used a metaphor instead of a simile. The Republican mind is alive and well!! Good show. Now, get back to your mop, bitch.
I'm on the elevator today leaving work, and this skinny, skanky-looking guy gets on. Looks like he belongs on "Springer."
Now I have two buttons on my coat: "Back by popular demand (peace sign)" and "He's STILL not MY President."
Well, this jerk zeroes in on the second button. "He's STILL not my president"?
I said "That's right!"
He gets a real attitude. "You ARE an American, aren't you?"
(What's the big bad man gonna do? HIT me? Report me to Gonzalez & the Torture Department? Pack me off to Gitmo?
If he even looked like he was going to touch me, he would have been wearing his balls for earrings.)
I said "Yes, I am an AMERICAN - as opposed to a MURKAN!"
I get a blank look. I said "MURKANS are the idiots who VOTED for him!"
"Well" says Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel "I 'm a MURKAN, so I guess I'm an idiot!"
I stared hard at him , shook my head and said "YOU said it, I didn't!"
Walking away, I started to sing Weird Al Yankovic's "Dare to be STOOpid, dare to be STOOpid!"
Imagine - BRAGGING that you're dumber than a bag of hammers.
He must've drunk a shitload of KoolAid! I should have asked him why he was not in Iraq, fighting for MURKA.
My dinner was delicious. It was a plate of my own shit with a glass of chianti. It was a good year, 2005. My shit, I mean.
Gordon the Magnificent
Fuck you all.
I did not write that.
1993 was good tho.
.
My first sober Friday night since forever.
It's OK, I guess.
John Peter Zenger
what is the meaning of this word 'sober'???
Is one "sober' whose judgment is unaffected?
But is anyone's judgment really sober? Isn't everyone's judgement affected by something?
I don't ask for sobriety.
Only that MY drugs be available when the pain is great...
Ripley, things are going to get better and you'll be glad you stayed around. I know dealing with repukes and what's going on is really draining. They really represent the worst in human beings.
Incognito
Who are you, and what have you done with our pal Incognito? Seriously, seeing you write a comment like this makes me very, very happy and hopeful. {{{{Incog}}}}
-
Ignore the trolls, as they are SO beneath our notice.
(And they're too fucking stupid to live!)
"Republican mind" - hahahahahahahahaha!
I like stealing other peoples' handles, although I'm too fucking dense to consider that someone might steal mine. Oh well, live and learn nothing.
NYMary,
You have no idea how hard it is to keep up with shitty home decore when it comes to the PU's-in law. We are talking about hate crimes against good taste. Oh, if the gay eyed folks could take on the in-laws!
Terry C, ltns - how ya be?
JPZenger, Congrats.
The concept of other people as actual people has become completely alien to everybody. It's like everyone else is just a seatfiller or a Star Trek redshirt.
=====
Eli, think about the % of your life you've spent watching fiction. Immersed in it. If you're anything like me, it's a bit shocking.
Viva Italia!
Sgrena's partner said he could not blame the U.S. soldiers for the shooting, saying they were probably ''scared boys'', and that the real blame lay with those who had sent them to Iraq.
http://www.deepikaglobal.com/lat...asp?
ncode=26073
Ripley, really, I do understand.
Toby putz-boy;
Your goddamn right-wing sites don't allow comments from the peanut gallery; they're only echo-chambers (free republic, for example). Our open-mindedness is manifest in your ability to drool the mucus-laden lickspittle that you call your opinion all over this thread.
If we "reflexivly reject[ed] debating" imbeciles like you, you wouldn't have the ability to be here. It's because we're not afraid to bitch-slap your lame, half-baked drivel that you are allowed to exist here.
The bigoted "reflexive" rejects are found in freepville.
Surely that irony has bored it's way through your dense skull by now.
Guardian
June 5, 2003
BBC news reporter John Simpson has hit out against the "trigger-happy" behaviour of US troops in Iraq and claimed he saved an old Iraqi man from being shot by gung-ho marines. The veteran reporter, who spent time with American forces in Tikrit, praised British troops for their conduct during the war but said in an interview with Soldier magazine that the Americans "lost control".
"They lost all control - screaming, shouting and kicking people," Simpson said, adding that US soldiers' fear of snipers led to a 'shoot first, ask questions later' attitude. "One of the marines shouted 'Snipers!' and put up his gun, pointing it at a man on a rooftop. I could see it was an old boy putting out a blanket to air and I said to him in a quiet voice that I would be the witness at his trial for murder if he pulled the trigger. He stopped," said the BBC reporter.
*clip*
Simpson was wounded by US troops during the conflict in a horrific "friendly fire" incident that killed his translator Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed and 17 others, as well as causing 45 injuries. Simpson filed a remarkable report by phone just minutes after the bomb landed on the convoy, breaking off at one point to tell a US army medic coming to his aid: "Shut up. I'm broadcasting... Oh yes, I'm fine - am I bleeding?."
The BBC later showed pictures of the tragedy shot by cameraman Fred Scott, who at one point is seen wiping blood from his lens, of Simpson and others running around trying to treat the wounded in the immediate aftermath of the bombing, while vehicles burned in the background.
Why does Terry hate his country so much? He's clearly transferring the self-loathing he feels onto something he is unable to understand.
It must be very frustrating to know that you are on the wrong side of History.
Oh, just ignore the trolls.
They're here because they don't have any friends and this is as close as they'll ever get to interacting with Real People.
Ripley,
I feel your pain. I'm looking for a simple life myself.
I don't ask for sobriety.
Only that MY drugs be available when the pain is great...
I just said it's "OK".
I certainly don't recommend it.
and that the real blame lay with those who had sent them to Iraq.
Freep response: Well, sure... or a piano could have fallen on her head, too. He's probably gay. Don't blame Bush!
/freepspeak
Toby.
Please explain to us precisely how the Presiden't Foreign Policy is working. I really want to hear this.
How about trying to understand how other people think? In my case, you would surely come to realize how utterly wrong you are about this President's foreign policy.
Toby Petzold
Holy Shit
ha ha ha ha haaa
Cough Cough Cough
Ha Ha Ha Ha
Cough Cough
I gotta stop smokin
.
Ha Ha
We see it for what it is - a tradegy.
That's a good statidgy.
Who are you, and what have you done with our pal Incognito? Seriously, seeing you write a comment like this makes me very, very happy and hopeful.
I was only writing that for the sake of Ripley. I've never been so deeply depressed about the future in my life.
"Always trying to push people you don't agree with to the back of the bus, eh?"
Actually, UNDER the bus!
You need a crying towel Ripley?
So uhm...
Aren't these headlines a little ...uhm...soft? An important man was KILLED. Shouldn't that be the headline?
...................................
CNN - "Coalition: Troops fired after car IGNORED warnings"
MSNBC - "Tragic MISTAKE"
CBS - "Freed Hostage HURT By U.S. Fire"
Yahoo News (AP) - "U.S. Forces WOUND Freed Hostage in Iraq"
You're tired Incognito. It's Friday.
They will blame Syria for this
"Why does Terry hate his country so much? He's clearly transferring the self-loathing he feels onto something he is unable to understand."
Terry is a woman, fuckwad!
And I don't hate this country. I hate Bush.
Preznit Jerkoff is NOT America!
Toby Petzold sez:
How about trying to understand how other people think? In my case, you would surely come to realize how utterly wrong you are about this President's foreign policy.
Sweeping statements like this don't work.
You might disagree with a comment, Toby, but writing-off someone is not good.
.
Ripley,
I feel your pain. I'm looking for a simple life myself.
Central Scrutinizer | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:05 pm | #
Why don't you whineasses move to Canda?
Lots of wilderness up there. You can get together everyday - drink your tea and sob on one another's shoulder.
You need a crying towel Ripley?
Gordon the Magnificent
Goddamn, dude, if I had to sport *your* mug all over creation for life, I'd need a crying bedspread.
I'm a pathetic, dangerously overweight loser who's never added any thought of even the remotest value to this blog's threads, other than to provoke people so they'll pay attention to me and my gray little life. I deserve everything I get.
You might disagree with a comment, Toby, but writing-off someone is not good.
.
spork_incident | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:10 pm | #
Hypocrite.
gob:
Please explain to us precisely how the Presiden't Foreign Policy is working. I really want to hear this.
We're infecting the Middle East with democratic desire. That's what we do. And when these societies are democratized to one degree or another, there will be a free press and enfranchisement and choice and a lot of other things that we take for granted.
So why are you opposed to democracy in the Middle East?
This is what Italian newspaper Repubblica.it is reporting (italian version first, then my own translation):
http://www.repubblica.it/2005/b/
...untosgrena.html
***********
[...] Ma intanto, a Bagdad, le cose prendono un'altra piega. Nella capitale irachena è ormai notte: e mentre un convoglio di tre fuoristrada blindati dei servizi di sicurezza militari italiani si dirige all'aeroporto, per far salire l'inviata del Manifesto a bordo del Falcon della presidenza del Consiglio, i militari Usa aprono il fuoco. Pioveva -dicono. Le auto arrivavano ad alta velocità, aggiungono. Sparano, gli americani, e uccidono Calipari. Poi non fanno avvicinare nessuno per molti minuti. La giornalista del Manifesto è ferita, ma non la fanno nemmeno scendere dalla macchina. Poi la ricoverano.
[...] In the meanwhile, in Bagdad, things take a different turn. It's already night. While a convoy of 3 armored all-terrain vehicles belonging to Italian military security is moving towards the airport to bring the Manifesto's journalist onboard the Italian Ministry's Falcon jet, the US military open fire. They say "it was raining." They add that "the cars were approaching at high speed." The Americans open fire and kill Calipari. Thereafter, they do not allow anybody close to the vehicle for several minutes. The Manifesto's journalist is injured, but they do not even allow her to get out of the car. Then, they bring her to an hospital.
***********
["Manifesto" is Sgrana's paper. Another Italian SISMI officer who was in the car is also in critical conditions]
Jamie Wilson in Baghdad
Tuesday August 19, 2003
The Guardian
Journalists who were with a Reuters news cameraman shot dead by US troops while filming outside a Baghdad prison yesterday accused the soldiers of behaving in a "crazy" and negligent fashion.
They claimed the Americans had spotted the Reuters crew outside the jail half an hour before Mazen Dana was killed and must have realised he was not a guerrilla carrying a rocket-propelled grenade launcher.
The chief executive of Reuters, Tom Glocer, said: "The latest death is hard to bear. That's why I am calling upon the highest levels of the US government for a full and comprehensive investigation into this terrible tragedy."
Dana, 43, is the second Reuters cameraman to be killed since the US-led force invaded Iraq. His death brought to 17 the number of journalists or their assistants who have died in Iraq since the war began on March 20.
"Please explain to us precisely how the Presiden't Foreign Policy is working."
Preznit Bush is spreading freedom. By invading Iraq, he caused the Syrians to assasinate the former prime minister of Lebanon, which caused street demonstrations against the Syrian presence there. Once the Syrians leave Lebanon, all wars end, and we can stop spending money on bombs. In fact, Kim Jong Il has personally stated that he would eliminate his nuculur weapons program if Syria left Lebanon to return to being the peaceful republic it was before 1989, when Syria invaded. That's how it works; get on the right side of history, and good things happen.
Ripley, ol' fella...
you just gotta find some joy...
sumpin that makes your heart right...
i know you know what it is (of coures, i do not know, for you what it is; but you do).
you've revealed yourself here to be a sensitive, creative, jovial, intelligent, interesting correspondent. it follows that there is for you some avenue into which you may--for the requisite time--immerse yourself, and heal...
just sayin, brother...
Gordon:
Have you ever BEEN to Canada?
You sound like you don't know a fucking thing about it, which never seems to stop MURKANS from sounding off.
We see it for what it is - a tradegy.
That's a good statidgy.
Bubba | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:08 pm | #
Strategy? Your a dumbocrat - you have no concept of strategy and aren't qualified to speak on it.
It's reality.
Sorry, Terry. You haven't written anything yet that would identify you as a [person of gender].
OK, I keed, I keed. I'm hopeful about the future because I'm Canadian. Ripley and whoever else is welcome to join us there.
I'm leaving now anyway, but I caution you to stop feeding the trolls. They'll totally destroy any decent conversation.
Yeah, we're INFECTING the Middle East all right.
We're INFECTING the world.
Gordon:
Have you ever BEEN to Canada?
You sound like you don't know a fucking thing about it, which never seems to stop MURKANS from sounding off.
Terry C | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:14 pm | #
Cunt,
I grew up a half hour from Canada. You ever been there? Tell me what I've said that doesn't ring true about the Great White North.
Why do I provoke people through the relatively anonymous internet? That's simple. It's because I hate myself, and my intense self-loathing leads me to cause other people to loathe me. That way, I can rationalize their loathing of me as being a result of my insults and asinine commentary, and not a result of my being a pathetic, worthless loser that most people manage to loathe without any prompting.
I am beginning to understand Agent Smith. People are a virus.
Gordon, why don't you come to my house and kill me? I've had enough of life and I'm ready to die...
I'll get a better insurance payoff for my friends and family if you do it.
Seriously, e-mail me....
Eason Jordan was run out of CNN by the fascisti for saying troops were shooting journalists.
Giuliana Sgrena is a journalist.
Just sayin'....
What Karin said.
Can't we all just ignore the mentally challenged trolls?
Why should I HAVE to state my gender????
Your a dumbocrat ...
Gordon the Magnificent
The "Thing" definitely speaks for itself.
"why in the hell did these fools want this?"
-dwd
here is a vague theory of mine, not very well developed, so bear with me:
the american right hates the sixties. it was their darkest hour. they figure if they can succeed in a project like this it would lend credence to the argument that the american efforts in vietnam would have succeeded if it had not been "sabotaged by the left".
like i said, it's just a vague theory.
Central,
Good to see you. Hope all is well. The Boosh years are HARD on us all.
We see it for what it is - a tradegy.
"We"?
Wingnut Metraton?
Speaker for AssHats?
My name is Legion for I have many, squeaky mouses in mah haid?
Just another lonely Dalek?
We are amused. We are vastly amused.
April 10 2003, 9:05 AM
Baghdad: Two Iraqis were killed and three others wounded today when US troops shot at an ambulance on a central Baghdad street, a doctor told AFP.
"The American troops just mowed down the ambulance which was transporting wounded people from the Saddam Centre for Plastic Surgery to another hospital," said Belgian doctor Geert Van Moorter.
The driver was wounded in the stomach and the offsider in his legs, said Van Moorter, from the Belgian association Medical Aid for the Third World.
The ambulance had been carrying three men wounded by exchanges of fire in the city, he said, adding that two of them were among the dead.
"This is completely unacceptable, and when I went up to a US officer to denounce such behaviour, he just said: 'The ambulance could contain explosives,'" said Van Moorter.
US forces entered central Baghdad today, meeting little resistance amid widespread displays of joy, three weeks after launching the war to depose President Saddam Hussein.
I wish someone would shoot at MURKAN "journalists"...
(M)ann Coulter, Rush the Pigboy, Vibrator O'Reilly, Handjob Hannity.......
I'll paint the targets on their backs.
Putzy sez:
"We're infecting the Middle East with democratic desire. That's what we do."
BWAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! Do you actually believe that crap? Thousands of years of shaping thier civilization, and you think that because the U.S. Marines come in there and start shooting them senseless they're going to rush out and build a Jeffersonian republic. You're even dumber than your comments make you out to be.
All we've done is given Iran a client-state and cover to build nukes. Nobody over there is any more democracy-minded now than they were 100 years ago. And if they are, maybe it has something to do with technology, the transfer of ideas, travel, global economy - not a bunch of grunts shooting up women and children, moron.
We are amused. We are vastly amused.
driftglass | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:17 pm | #
I'm not surprised that you find this tradegy amusing driftglass.
It's all a fucking joke to you tinfoil hats. Jokes and political ploys.
"Cunt,
I grew up a half hour from Canada. You ever been there? Tell me what I've said that doesn't ring true about the Great White North.
Gordon the Magnificent |"
Charming!
Talk to women like that all the time?
Toby Doofus
I almost fell for that.
Nicely done.
.
"Sir, am I supposed to shine your boots with the "grain," or against? Sorry sir; I guess I'll just have start over from the beginning. Can you sit still on my shinebox, please? I'm getting dirty polish all over my filthy hands and legs."
Hey bigvic,
I could complain, but I won't.
How you doin'?
This is what Italian newspaper Repubblica.it is reporting (italian version first, then my own translation):
http://www.repubblica.it/2005/b/
...untosgrena.html
***********
[...] Ma intanto, a Bagdad, le cose prendono un'altra piega. Nella capitale irachena è ormai notte: e mentre un convoglio di tre fuoristrada blindati dei servizi di sicurezza militari italiani si dirige all'aeroporto, per far salire l'inviata del Manifesto a bordo del Falcon della presidenza del Consiglio, i militari Usa aprono il fuoco. Pioveva -dicono. Le auto arrivavano ad alta velocità, aggiungono. Sparano, gli americani, e uccidono Calipari. Poi non fanno avvicinare nessuno per molti minuti. La giornalista del Manifesto è ferita, ma non la fanno nemmeno scendere dalla macchina. Poi la ricoverano.
[...] In the meanwhile, in Bagdad, things take a different turn. It's already night. While a convoy of 3 armored all-terrain vehicles belonging to Italian military security is moving towards the airport to bring the Manifesto's journalist onboard the Italian Ministry's Falcon jet, the US military open fire. They say "it was raining." They add that "the cars were approaching at high speed." The Americans open fire and kill Calipari. Thereafter, they do not allow anybody close to the vehicle for several minutes. The Manifesto's journalist is injured, but they do not even allow her to get out of the car. Then, they bring her to an hospital.
***********
["Manifesto" is Sgrana's paper. Another Italian SISMI officer who was in the car is also in critical conditions]
I'd just as soon you didn't, Terry.
Bush hasn't done One thing that's made my life better. Not one.
Safety? Oh yeah, forget about 9/11... it's a post 9/11 world now. Fuck You! People from my company were in those towers. So, fuck you and fuck you again. And when you're done, please fuck yourself even harder.
Tax cuts? Not for me. Huh... so, no tax cuts, then...
Iraq? Please... STFU... cheap oil? Yeah, that's been just gushing out of my toilet. I don't have enough Tupperware to store all my free gas now.
Economy? Yeah... again, STFU.
Gov't Budget? Bill Clinton laughs about Bush while he strokes off in the shower and thinks of chapter titles for his new book.
Uniting the nation? Go fuck your united nation. Notice it wasn't nationS? Oh, and fuck you again, just cuz it's America and I can say it.
I'm a patriot - you're a fucking traitor with a complex and you want to see "icky people" die. Piss off, you fucking git!
And yes I have been to Canada!
EVERY FUCKING YEAR.
You no class troll!
Chaos is chaotic. No one knows who is the 'enemy' - because the invasion and the occupation are insane. The horror today is not unusual...cars are shot up all the time, but usually the dead are Iraqi civilians... women, children, old people.... who didn't follow the right instructions. We just don't hear about them. Heck, no one really cares about Iraqis dying....
Uh.... get those lousy Syrians out of Lebanon.....only the US can occupy a sovereign country. Get that straight...
here is a vague theory of mine, not very well developed, so bear with me:
the american right hates the sixties. it was their darkest hour. they figure if they can succeed in a project like this it would lend credence to the argument that the american efforts in vietnam would have succeeded if it had not been "sabotaged by the left".
like i said, it's just a vague theory.
Olaf glad and big | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:16 pm | #
Keep smoking the crack moonbat bitch. Not everything is a conspiracy theory.
Is my mom's cunt chicken or tuna?
It smells like tuna, but I plopped out of it, and I'm chickenshit.
So is my mother's cunt chicken or tuna?
Whatever it is, IT'S DELICIOUS!
Just look at my handle, for christsakes. What kind of a sorry, low self-esteemed asshole would go around referring to himself as "Magnificent"? I think I protest too much. I'd cite the actual line from Shakespeare, but I'm too much of an idiot to know it and too fat and lazy to look it up.
I don't wanna know YOURS, either, PUTZHOLE!
Eli, think about the % of your life you've spent watching fiction. Immersed in it. If you're anything like me, it's a bit shocking.
And yet, I can still distinguish between that and reality. Thus making me, let's see, what's the clinical term... "Sane"!
I've ranted about this before somewhere, but I wonder if the infestation of "Reality TV" has anything to do with the apparent increase in Americans who think they're the star of their own TV show.
Reality TV basically teaches people that being devious and rude is the appropriate way to behave to get ahead in life, and that any yay-hoo can be a star on the teevee. Ergo, Joe Knuckle-Dragging Reality TeeVee Watcher is a star and should behave accordingly, even though no-one else knows it yet.
I think there's been an increase in general uncouth thuggishness in sports, and probably in the movies as well. After all, if it's cool for sports stars and movie protagonists to act like thuggish assholes, then why shouldn't I, the star of my own movie, do the same?
Thing is, I *don't* assume I'm the star of the movie, and would be happy to settle for scene-stealing comic relief, although I'm pretty sure I'm third-string for that too.
Clinton did get 1 deferrment.
Hey Gordo.
You're look like a fag in your picture.
When are you moving to Uzbekistan?
tradegy
Is that like one a them nuculer dealies?
Or is it "Trade Guy?" Like when y'all pass a hot manwhore 'round the fire after a hard day of preznitin?
Gordon, why don't you come to my house and kill me? I've had enough of life and I'm ready to die...
I'll get a better insurance payoff for my friends and family if you do it.
Seriously, e-mail me....
Ripley | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:16 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Typical liberal. Too cowardly to even off himself.
Do your own job you lazy bastard.
wARD cHURCHILL IS ON bILL mAHER.
gob:
Please explain to us precisely how the Presiden't Foreign Policy is working. I really want to hear this.
no, probably you don't...
not unless your thoughts flow with the consistency of chunky peanutbutter...
toby is a frequent interloper, who derives perverse pleasure (one hand typing, know what Uh mean?) in offering juvenile sophistries masquerqading as puerile 'problems' in the guise of what he imagines to be witty, plangent and intelligent analyses. He may--if I may say--be safely, nay, resolutely ignored...
just saying, brother...
"Moonbat"?????
Gordon, I've told you a thousand times!
My cunt is neither chicken nor tuna!
It's buffalo!
Now, GET CHOMPIN'!
I was just waiting for someone with a chick's name to post so I could use the word cunt.
I love the word cunt. It's so self-referential.
Hey Gordo.
You're look like a fag in your picture.
When are you moving to Uzbekistan?
Clutch Cargo | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:21 pm | #
does that somehow excite you faggot?
Sixty-three men and women journalists were killed in Vietnam during 14 years of war.
46 journalists and assistants have been killed in Iraq since the war begin, according to Reporters without Borders.
Eason Jordan was right.
Jeff Gannon? Best 1,200 I ever spent.
i've used this mettafer here before, but i think it is apt.
of course i support the troops, in the same way that i support firefighters. if the fire chief goes around setting fire to buildings unnecessarily and sending firefighters into them to put them out i will continue to support the firefighters.
but i sure as hell won't support the fire chief.
Is there anything more pitiful than conservative cheetos kids saying "moonbat" as a derogatory word? I like what the irrelevant one said; Gordon, get back on your shinebox, bitch.
I need some adivce here.
I'm running out of room for my toe-jam collection, and it turns out I was mistaken about its nutritional value.
So, if I don't eat it and I don't save it, what should I do with it?
Fuck, fuck, fuck! Can you troll players not just walk on by?
You just help dumb down this thread. Stop it! Jeepers H. Christmas.
And yes I have been to Canada!
EVERY FUCKING YEAR.
You no class troll!
Terry C | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:19 pm | #
So tell me Cunt, what was your point about Canada?
Great cunts think alike, Gorda.
Olaf, they do hate the 60's. And everything they identify as springing from that. They trace the supposed dissolution of society to those who wished to loosen the constraints of tradition, instead of to their own cynical contempt for those same constraints. The only strategy they seem to comprehend is projection, denial, compensation.
And before you ask, yes, I am a psychiatrist.
Sabine-interesting comments.
I dream of filling the streets with thousands to protest this president, mourn the deaths he has caused, demand a better America.
I often wonder why it is so difficult to get numbers here, am always stunned by turnouts in Europe.
I think about BushCo's praise of all the demonstrators in Ukraine, now Lebanon. Contrasted with Bush being caught by an amateur photographer giving the finger to some few protesters who managed to have anti-Bush signs on the "cleansed" route of one of his campaign motorcades.
I also think that if we did get out on the streets in our thousands, several would be dead, many beaten, many more arrested, treated far worse than the protesters in NYC during the Republican National Convention last August--or those in Miami during the WTO, IIRC, meeting.
I cannot imagine what would happen in this nation right now if there were true civil disobedience and protests.
Today's events, this unreal situation of a hostage gaining freedom only to face possible death from the US, Bush in NJ calling his Social Security opponents liars.... Sometimes it's too depressing to pay attention.
"Circling the drain"--indeed.
This is what Italian newspaper Repubblica.it is reporting (italian version first, then my own translation):
http://www.repubblica.it/2005/b/
...untosgrena.html
***********
[...] Ma intanto, a Bagdad, le cose prendono un'altra piega. Nella capitale irachena è ormai notte: e mentre un convoglio di tre fuoristrada blindati dei servizi di sicurezza militari italiani si dirige all'aeroporto, per far salire l'inviata del Manifesto a bordo del Falcon della presidenza del Consiglio, i militari Usa aprono il fuoco. Pioveva -dicono. Le auto arrivavano ad alta velocità, aggiungono. Sparano, gli americani, e uccidono Calipari. Poi non fanno avvicinare nessuno per molti minuti. La giornalista del Manifesto è ferita, ma non la fanno nemmeno scendere dalla macchina. Poi la ricoverano.
[...] In the meanwhile, in Bagdad, things take a different turn. It's already night. While a convoy of 3 armored all-terrain vehicles belonging to Italian military security is moving towards the airport to bring the Manifesto's journalist onboard the Italian Ministry's Falcon jet, the US military open fire. They say "it was raining." They add that "the cars were approaching at high speed." The Americans open fire and kill Calipari. Thereafter, they do not allow anybody close to the vehicle for several minutes. The Manifesto's journalist is injured, but they do not even allow her to get out of the car. Then, they bring her to an hospital.
***********
["Manifesto" is Sgrana's paper. Another Italian SISMI officer who was in the car is also in critical conditions]
I'm a patriot - you're a fucking traitor with a complex and you want to see "icky people" die. Piss off, you fucking git!
Ripley | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:19 pm | #
Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Sob
Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Sob
Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Someone told me once that excessive homophobia usually is a sign of insecurity about one's own sexuality. I try my best not to think about it, though the fact that I troll liberal blogs on Friday nights makes it difficult.
Eli,
You've got to read Nick Hornby. In About A Boy he talks precisely about being the star of his own show, how he was he star and it wasn't an ensemble piece.... you are so the audience for this.
Read a book, fella. Trust me; I'm a professional.
Gordo, I can do it. I'm ready.
Just thought that since you were so gungh ho and all... you know, macho Republcian.
And frankly, I'm a little surprised that you can't see the financial brilliance of my plan. Why don't you want people to get ahead?
You suck, Gordo. You won't even kill me when I ask you to and you deny my friends and family their due reward for the dollars I've spent on insurance.
Fuck you and go away, traitor.
And, what can be said about the final act of Nicola Calipari, who by accounts died while acting as a human shield for Giuliana Sgrena.
Toby.
Sometimes, like earlier today, you show glimmers of shimmers of particles of intelligence.
Read what you wrote, or copied and pasted, again, and tell me if it makes sense.
It really comes down to who you beleive, I guess. The administration and US mainstream press that has lied to us almost since the administration was sworn in in 2001, or the rest of the worldwide press, who has been asking just what the fuck Bush was/is smoking.
All of our efforts in Iraq towards democratizing them have put into power the Shiite's who are allied with the Iranians we're threatening to invade next, unless the Syrians "force out hands" first.
And with what Army? So then we have to draft people to fight these wars that we never really needed to fight in the first place.
And before you go and cry about 911, the indisputable fact is that there were enough warnings that this administration ignored to have had the air force on a high enough level of alert to be able to scramble super-sonic interceptors to shoot down lumbering Boeings while they wandered around US airspace with their IFF turned off for almost an hour before impact.
So if 911 turns into 4 planes shot down before they destroy WTC, do we still need to kill uncounted Iraqi's to make it right?
Gordo is a fag!
Gordo is a fag!
Gordo is a fag!
Gordo is a fag!
Gordo is a fag!
Gordo is a fag!
Gordo is a fag!
Gordo is a fag!
Bend over Gordo and eat my banana!
Jesus. Never fuckinmind.
Is there anything more pitiful than conservative cheetos kids saying "moonbat" as a derogatory word? I like what the irrelevant one said; Gordon, get back on your shinebox, bitch.
Old sheets | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:23 pm | #
Remove the tinfoil hat and try again, old man.
Look people, just because I'm a closet case chickenshit who couldn't get even one branch of the military to accept my spineless ass into service...
it doesn't mean that I don't have feelings!
Why do you have to bring my mother, Gorda, into this?
She has nothing to do with my being a piece of shit!
Why, if it wasn't for her career choice of cheap booze whore, I'd be buried in a sanitary napkin somewhere!
Show the lady some respect, huh?
bigvic,
Sorry. You're right. I just...miss...Bubba.
Ripley, I really do think things are going to get better. They just have to.
Eason Jordan was right.
flory
of course he was right...
everybody knows he was right...
us troops/authorities have been targeting journalists...
of COURSE they have...
that's how the game is played.
My only hope is that the National Guard, when the members deploy back stateside aren't so hardened and inured that they might be encouraged to find their fellow citizens guilty of 'driving too fast'
know what i mean?
I wouldn't worry about this nonsense so much if it wasn't mirrored on the ground in Iraq. Take the US claim--now regarded as an absurdity--that they killed "54 insurgents" in Samara a month ago. The truth is that they killed at least eight civilians and there's not a smidgen of evidence that they killed anyone else. But still they insist on sticking to the story of their great victory.
Last week, they pushed out a similar version of the same story. This time there were 11 dead "insurgents" in Samara. But when The Independent investigated, it could only find records of four dead civilians and a lot of wounded. None of the wounded--presumably "insurgents" if the Americans believe their own story--had been visited in hospital by US forces who might, if they didn't question them, at least have apologised.
An even more peculiar habit has now manifest itself among spokesmen for the occupation authorities. When a tank drove over a prominent Shiite Muslim cleric in the Baghdad suburb of Sadr City three weeks ago, they claimed this was a "traffic accident", as if driving an M1A1 Abrams tank over a car and a robed prelate is the kind of thing that can happen on any downtown street.
A few days later, after a truck-bomber crashed into a car and killed 17 civilians, the occupation lads churned out the same rubbish again. It was, they said, a "traffic accident" involving a petrol tanker. But there was no tanker attached to the lorry.
The first American troops on the scene found the grenades intended to detonate the bomb and the victims were all blasted to bits--not burned, as they would have been if the petrol tanker had simply caught fire. Those of us who reached the scene shortly after the slaughter could still smell the explosives. But it was a "traffic accident".
Only yesterday we had an equally bizarre event. Jets, C-130 aircraft mounted with chain guns, and heavy artillery were all reported to be striking "guerrilla bases" in Operation Iron Hammer south of Baghdad. But investigation proved that the targets were empty fields and that some of the heavy guns were firing blank rounds as part of an artillery maintenance routine.
So let's get this right. Insurgents are civilians. Truck bombs and tanks that crush civilians are traffic accidents. And the "liberated" civilians who live in villages surrounded by razor wire should endure "a heavy dose of fear and violence" to keep them on the straight and narrow.
Somewhere along the way, they will probably be told about democracy as well.
12/27/03
Robert Fisk is a reporter for The Independent and author of Pity the Nation.
G'night, my lovely Moonbats.
The troll feeding is just way too fucking much tonight.
Be well, Ya'll.
And before you go and cry about 911, the indisputable fact is that there were enough warnings that this administration ignored to have had the air force on a high enough level of alert to be able to scramble super-sonic interceptors to shoot down lumbering Boeings while they wandered around US airspace with their IFF turned off for almost an hour before impact.
So if 911 turns into 4 planes shot down before they destroy WTC, do we still need to kill uncounted Iraqi's to make it right?
gob | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:27 pm | #
Hey GOB, you copy and paste these talking points from MOVEON.org or do you actually think for yourself?
Bend over Gordo and eat my banana!
You want a man to blow you and HE'S a fag? Hmmm.
Damn, so was there a big sale on Trollchow today? Are you hoping they gorge themselves till they explode?
That said, Toby, since you occasionally seem to be interested in actual discussion more than most of the nonbelievers who visit here (though I've noticed you then usually lapse into sophomoric name-calling and jingoism) would you please talk to your compatriot Gordon? Aside from his political views, don't you find his comments vulgar, misogynistic, and obnoxious? You know, he won't listen to us, but he might listen to you. Please?
Or are you just here to disrupt tonight?
G'night, my lovely Moonbats.
The troll feeding is just way too fucking much tonight.
Be well, Ya'll.
Central Scrutinizer | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:28 pm | #
Chalk up one more loss Scrtoumizer. This is my thread.
The sad thing is, over in freeperdom these guys probably qualify as intellectual giants.
Mrs. I - you back in here? Your opinion on Monk tonight?
-
Or are you just here to disrupt tonight?
JeffCO | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:29 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Toby,
Could you mail a crying towel to this condescending bitch?
You see, the Arabs hated and were confused by democracy until Preznit decided to show 'em about it. Now, they can't get enough of it!! Those gulf elections occurring for the past ten years were meaningless, and that Persian election in 1997 couldn't have had the effect that our glorious occupation has had. Why, I heard that Turkey was going to hold elections now too! Chalk that up to Preznit!!!
Or are you just here to disrupt tonight?
That's all either cares about. They are the two stupidest and ugliest oure trolls anywhere and should be banned. They are the best argument for the site going to registration.
WHY does Bill Maher HAVE to have a token right wing fucktard on every show?
The one he has on now is a real ditz!
Thanks for sticking up for me, son.
Now, my desiccated pussy is in need of sweet, wet love.
GET CHOMPIN', BOY!
Alex,
Thanks for the passage & translation.
Hy wouldn't they let anyone approach the car for several minutes, I wonder?
You want a man to blow you and HE'S a fag? Hmmm.
BlakNo1 | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:29 pm |
It's the MANLY thing to do!
My only hope is that the National Guard, when the members deploy back stateside aren't so hardened and inured that they might be encouraged to find their fellow citizens guilty of 'driving too fast'
know what i mean?
WoodyGsGuitar(aka konopelli | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:28 pm | #
Woody, are you reallt his fucking moronic?
I'm sure our Guardsmen won't mistake Moose Lips, Montana for Baghdad.
You are so out of touch with reality.
Ok, this is getting confusing.
I know when I'm
Gordon the Magnificent, but when are you, or him, or...
Fuck, I'm getting drunk.
Gonna go sit outside.
But, so sad, My LC just got the metal plate in his leg taken out.
So he can't go with me.
He's all drugged still, in his box, so maybe he won't notice if I just take Zoey with me.
Sucks.
Just thought I add to Fri cat blogging.
.
1000s of Timothy McVeighs...home from the wars...that look in their eyes...
Wha:
Thousands of years of shaping thier civilization, and you think that because the U.S. Marines come in there and start shooting them senseless they're going to rush out and build a Jeffersonian republic. You're even dumber than your comments make you out to be.
No, that's a gross overstatement you've made because you only know how to build strawmen. The people of the Middle East may be steeped in a long tradition, but History is full of examples of very sudden and profound changes in certain cultures. What is your resistance to all of this? The American military machine is providing the kind of pressure that enables the people living under these tyrannies to rise up without so much fear. Our presence their emboldens the kids. Do you deny that?
All we've done is given Iran a client-state and cover to build nukes.
That makes no sense.
Nobody over there is any more democracy-minded now than they were 100 years ago.
That's false. If you don't believe that there's a difference between now and then in the minds and behavior of the Muslim Middle East, then you are an irredeemable dumbass.
And if they are, maybe it has something to do with technology, the transfer of ideas, travel, global economy - not a bunch of grunts shooting up women and children, moron.
Go fuck yourself, Mr. Rall. Your ignorance is incredible.
WHY does Bill Maher HAVE to have a token right wing fucktard on every show?
The one he has on now is a real ditz!
Terry C | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:31 pm | #
He likes to present both sides, cunt.
NYMary, You should read a book. Trust me on this, I am a writer. Books open our minds to worlds we never knew existed and allow to experiene vicariously some of the more enabling pieces of text. You will never understand courage without experiencing it before you become a hero.
I think "Toby" is more than one person posting. Same with Gordo.
Their posts are too frequent for one person to be reading, refreshing and riposting, etc ad nauseum.
So, how many people in the Toby Machine and how many in the Gordo Machine?
No timeto read your reply, "gents". I have to grab some pizza and a beer. But do go on... it's so fascinating.....
"So tell me Cunt, what was your point about Canada?
Gordon the Magnificent"
How classy!
Speaking of reality, has anyone noticed that I get especially vile on dateless Fridays?
If only Jeff was still in business.
Well, maybe I'll peruse the other military escort sites.
I'm a chickenhawk
This is what Italian newspaper Repubblica.it is reporting (italian version first, then my own translation):
http://www.repubblica.it/2005/b/
...untosgrena.html
***********
[...] Ma intanto, a Bagdad, le cose prendono un'altra piega. Nella capitale irachena è ormai notte: e mentre un convoglio di tre fuoristrada blindati dei servizi di sicurezza militari italiani si dirige all'aeroporto, per far salire l'inviata del Manifesto a bordo del Falcon della presidenza del Consiglio, i militari Usa aprono il fuoco. Pioveva -dicono. Le auto arrivavano ad alta velocità, aggiungono. Sparano, gli americani, e uccidono Calipari. Poi non fanno avvicinare nessuno per molti minuti. La giornalista del Manifesto è ferita, ma non la fanno nemmeno scendere dalla macchina. Poi la ricoverano.
[...] In the meanwhile, in Bagdad, things take a different turn. It's already night. While a convoy of 3 armored all-terrain vehicles belonging to Italian military security is moving towards the airport to bring the Manifesto's journalist onboard the Italian Ministry's Falcon jet, the US military open fire. They say "it was raining." They add that "the cars were approaching at high speed." The Americans open fire and kill Calipari. Thereafter, they do not allow anybody close to the vehicle for several minutes. The Manifesto's journalist is injured, but they do not even allow her to get out of the car. Then, they bring her to an hospital.
***********
["Manifesto" is Sgrana's paper. Another Italian SISMI officer who was in the car is also in critical conditions]
Nite, Central.
Gonna hit it myself.
Peace out, friends.
Ok, this is getting confusing.
I know when I'm
Gordon the Magnificent, but when are you, or him, or...
Fuck, I'm getting drunk.
Gonna go sit outside.
But, so sad, My LC just got the metal plate in his leg taken out.
So he can't go with me.
He's all drugged still, in his box, so maybe he won't notice if I just take Zoey with me.
Sucks.
Just thought I add to Fri cat blogging.
.
agave | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:32 pm | #
How pathetic are you when you spend a friday evening composing a poem about Gordon the Magnificent from Dog Snot Diaries?
Gordo loves the "C", word.
Takes one to know one!
''....but History is full of examples of very sudden and profound changes in certain cultures.''
Name one, ass.
1000s of Timothy McVeighs...home from the wars...that look in their eyes...
Holy moonbats batman. You're a nutcase.
I'm trying to get hits for my awful site
Ambien has kicked in, night
Toby, Iran and Iraq had democratically elected governments in the 50s. We assisted the Shah in overthrowing Mossadeq in Iran, and similar actions occurred in Iraq. Were people in the middle east only pretending to like democracy, or are you an idiot? My guess is that you are an idiot, but its only a guess...
OT, but WTF - this quote from the Preznit:
"I like doing this, by the way - I like going around the country, saying, 'Folks, we have got a problem.' "
Seems to me that were I the Prez, I'd hate having to do that...
Chalk up one more loss Scrtoumizer. This is my thread.
Gordon the Magnificent
what a trivial person you must be: so proud that mere, meager obtuseness could drive away interlocutors by the sheer weight of your own boorish boredom-inducing banality...what a small compass you must reside within...
unimagineable, really...
Gordon, I told you to forget Jeff!
He don't love you! He never did!
Now, get to work on my dust chompbox!
I've got some bunions for you to work on afterward!
Oh, and there's a Twinkie in it for you...
(no, Gordon, I'm not talking about Toby... That twink has a diseased filling)
Gordo loves the "C", word.
Takes one to know one!
Terry C | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:35 pm | #
That's the best you got for a comeback?
You just graduated to "dumb cunt."
unimagineable, really...
WoodyGsGuitar(aka konopelli | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:36 pm | #
The only thing unimaginable is your stupid theory about returning guardsmen.
Moonbat.
And when I say 'downgraded', I mean 1000% better than me.
Why do I hate myself so much?
njbrad,
Hee Hee Hee!
Here are some of the "folks" he is talking to:
The events sometimes took on a pep-rally feel. One member of the president's assembled panel of citizens on stage in Indiana triggered a standing ovation when he lavishly praised Bush's leadership. Other panelists were so intent on lauding him that Bush felt the need to prod them to talk about Social Security.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp...8-
2005Mar4.html
You've got to read Nick Hornby. In About A Boy he talks precisely about being the star of his own show, how he was he star and it wasn't an ensemble piece.... you are so the audience for this.
I'll see if I can scrounge up a copy.
I think I liked him better with The Range, though.
Thanks for sticking up for me, son.
A-ha! Preposition trouble.
So, how many people in the Toby Machine and how many in the Gordo Machine?
No timeto read your reply, "gents". I have to grab some pizza and a beer. But do go on... it's so fascinating.....
Ripley | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:33 pm | #
My guess Ripley would be four people posting as me.
Why do you have to gang up on my offspring?
Gordon, why can't you just stick to your online twink porn?
You know you're only going to embarrass yourself by going to Eschaton!
You make me sorry I ever fucked that stranger in Poughkeepsie!
unimagineable, really...
Yeah. Your basic mental patient, really.
I should have pulled out of Gordon's mother
You cannot be as sorry as I am, Gorda!
Geez.
What a cunt of a son I have!
I blame myself though.
I should have killed you instead of letting that kid live.
I should have pulled out of Gordon's mother
Poughkeepsie stranger | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:42 pm | #
Strange dude. You like to fuck 70 year old women?
You got issues.
Talk to your Republican lady friends like that if they disagree about anything, Gordo?
You're a fuckin charmer, you are. Your mother surely raised you well, good master Magnificent.
But you bore me.....
A-ha! Preposition trouble.
If by that you mean what I think you mean, no trouble. It's a
http://www.usingenglish.com/refe...erbs/\">phrasal verb.
I loooove our president. When I was a pinmply faced brat I used to stick M80s up frogs asses and blow them up. Yuk! Yuk! I blowed them up reeeal good. It was funny! You commie liberals don't have a sense of humor. Why don't y'all move to Canada or France?
They are the best argument for the site going to registration.
Thersites
You are correct, sir. Enforce unique user names and cross-ref them to E-mail addies. Too many complaints and the name gets yanked, and you can't use the E-mail to sign up for a new account for a few months.
-
You cannot be as sorry as I am, Gorda!
Geez.
What a cunt of a son I have!
I blame myself though.
I should have killed you instead of letting that kid live.
Stranger in Poughkeepsie | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:43 pm | #
Stupid asshole. You forgot to forge my mother's name, rather than leave your own. Christ you moonbats are stupid.
gob:
All of our efforts in Iraq towards democratizing them have put into power the Shiite's who are allied with the Iranians we're threatening to invade next, unless the Syrians "force out hands" first.
That's the path you want to take, right? That's the next thing up in your cartoonish understanding of what's going on here. Bush should invade Iran? Bush is making Iraq over into a theocracy? Get a clue!
And before you go and cry about 911, the indisputable fact is that there were enough warnings that this administration ignored to have had the air force on a high enough level of alert to be able to scramble super-sonic interceptors to shoot down lumbering Boeings while they wandered around US airspace with their IFF turned off for almost an hour before impact.
Nonsense. Everything is crystal-clear the day after. Cartoons.
Urp, damn tags repeating on me. That exciting phrasal verb link again.
HA! What a stupid fuck.
But you bore me.....
Ripley | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:43 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Then why engage me numbfuck?
At least your showing some spirit now instead of sobbing in your lap like you were earlier in the thread.
This is what Italian newspaper Repubblica.it is reporting (italian version first, then my own translation):
http://www.repubblica.it/2005/b/
...untosgrena.html
***********
[...] Ma intanto, a Bagdad, le cose prendono un'altra piega. Nella capitale irachena è ormai notte: e mentre un convoglio di tre fuoristrada blindati dei servizi di sicurezza militari italiani si dirige all'aeroporto, per far salire l'inviata del Manifesto a bordo del Falcon della presidenza del Consiglio, i militari Usa aprono il fuoco. Pioveva -dicono. Le auto arrivavano ad alta velocità, aggiungono. Sparano, gli americani, e uccidono Calipari. Poi non fanno avvicinare nessuno per molti minuti. La giornalista del Manifesto è ferita, ma non la fanno nemmeno scendere dalla macchina. Poi la ricoverano.
[...] In the meanwhile, in Bagdad, things take a different turn. It's already night. While a convoy of 3 armored all-terrain vehicles belonging to Italian military security is moving towards the airport to bring the Manifesto's journalist onboard the Italian Ministry's Falcon jet, the US military open fire. They say "it was raining." They add that "the cars were approaching at high speed." The Americans open fire and kill Calipari. Thereafter, they do not allow anybody close to the vehicle for several minutes. The Manifesto's journalist is injured, but they do not even allow her to get out of the car. Then, they bring her to an hospital.
***********
["Manifesto" is Sgrana's paper. Another Italian SISMI officer who was in the car is also in critical conditions]
Two words for this guy: crystal meth.
Just sayin'.
Goodnight. See some of you tomorrow eve.
Goodnight. See some of you tomorrow eve.
watertiger | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:46 pm | #
Good night asshole.
Gordo, you flatter me. I'm not nearly as talented or interested as you imply, that I would bother to steal your name.
Just an honest hunk o' post for ya, pally. You're hardly worth clearing my cookies for.
Fuckin eh, is your shift over yet? You're boring the hell out of me.
Strange dude. You like to fuck 70 year old women?
Even when they're not your own mother?
You got issues.
When I fuck my mom, that's normal.
When others do it...
EW!
Robert Fisk
18 January, 2005
The Independent
Checkpoints may be manned by policemen, but it is now unclear just who the cops are working for. US troops operating in and around Baghdad are now avoided by Western journalists, unless they are "embedded", as much as they are by Iraqis, because of the indiscipline with which they open fire on civilians on the least suspicion.
So questions are being asked. What is a reporter's life worth?
Is the story worth the risk?
And, much more seriously from an ethical point of view, why don't more journalists report on the restrictions under which they operate?
During the 2003 US-British invasion, editors often insisted on prefacing journalist's dispatches from Saddam Hussein's Iraq by talking abut the restrictions under which they were operating. But today - when our movements are much more circumscribed - no such "health warning" accompanies their reports. In many cases, viewers and readers are left with the impression that the journalist is free to travel around Iraq. Not so.
"The US military couldn't be happier with this situation," a longtime American correspondent in Baghdad says. "They know that if they bomb a house of innocent people, they can claim it was a 'terrorist' base and get away with it. They don't want us roaming around Iraq, and so the 'terrorist' threat is great news for them. They can claim they've shot 600 or 1 000 insurgents and we have no way of checking because we can't go to the cemetery or visit the hospitals - because we don't want to get kidnapped and have our throats cut."
Thus many reporters are now reduced to telephoning the American military or the Iraqi "interim" government for information from their hotel rooms, receiving "facts" from men and women who are even more isolated from Iraq in the Baghdad Green Zone around Saddam's former palace than are the journalists. Or they take reports from their correspondents "embedded" with American troops and who will, necessarily, get only the American side of the story.
night watertiger
''....but History is full of examples of very sudden and profound changes in certain cultures.''
Name one, ass.
The Soviet Union? Red China? Reunified Germany? Revolutionary France? Modern Iran?
Just an honest hunk o' post for ya, pally. You're hardly worth clearing my cookies for.
Fuckin eh, is your shift over yet? You're boring the hell out of me.
Ripley | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:47 pm | #
If I'm so dull why are you obsessed with engaging me?
I think ya'll are being a little harsh on Gordo. He can't help it he's retarded.
SteveLG | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:48 pm | #
you got any original thoughts? Or are you content to just copy and paste?
Damnit, Gordo! Stop replying to my posts, man.
Are you infatuated with me?
Well, beloved fellow moon-bats, my energies wane: to sleep, perchance to dream...
The pursuit of stardom is taxing.
There is nothing more important that comfortable shoes.
The veneer of civilization is mere microns thick most places.
"To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pitch and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.-- Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember'd.
See y'all in the movies...
Gordon you are not to bad if you would stop flinging your vulgarities out whenever you are cornered. If you are going to challenge folks, do it clean. If you can't stand your ground without taking an air or bringing it into the gutter, what point is there? And being a bit old school, it rankles me a bit to see you tossing some of your nasty phrasing at the women here. It is hard to argue with someone who so poorly represents the male gender and casts a pall on the rest of us by your actions. I have found when someone becomes so adamant in using your style of diatribe that eventually it develops how less of a man the individual is. This is pretty common to petty bullies and posing toughs. It makes that individual pretty worthless. Once the crowd catches that wind, that individual then becomes the runt of the litter. You can ruffle your chest hair all you want, but you have pretty much delegated yourself to that status. These folks Gordon have no reserve in their insults, versus many of the trolls that have passed by that they have maintained a bit of civility. It must be hard to walk in with a view you are so over the heads of folks here only to find out you take hindtit.
Ripley,
I'm just having a blast bitchslapping you. Keep coming back for more if you like.
So, is Gordon an LGFer? Sure sounds like one. What's your 'nic' over there, Gordon?
Watertiger - Goodnight, sleep tight, don't let the grapefruit bite.
-
GORDON YOU LITTLE FAG!
GET YOU GODDAMN FAT ASS BACK IN THIS TRAILER AND CLEAN UP MY JIZ THAT YOUR SISTER DIDN'T SWALLOW OFF THE WALL! I'M GOING TO BEAT THE FUCK OUT OF YOU IF YOU DON'T GET IN HERE NOW!
MOVE IT, MONKEY-FUCK!
"[clinton} submitted to the draft lottery and his number didn't come up."
-wgg
this is all true and it is a matter of public record. clinton's number was 311. and he was never drafted. bush, on the other hand, was a draft dodger.
Wow. Gordon owns this thread. How'd you get them to dance like that, Gordon?
Guys, it's been done before, and much better:
Q: WHAT DO YOU WANT?
M: Well, I was told outside that...
Q: Don't give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings!
M: What?
Q: Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, maloderous, pervert!!!
M: Look, I CAME HERE FOR AN ARGUMENT, I'm not going to just stand...!!
Q: OH, oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse.
M: Oh, I see, well, that explains it.
Q: Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor.
M: Oh, Thank you very much. Sorry.
Q: Not at all.
M: Thank You.
(Under his breath) Stupid git!!
Gordon you are not to bad if you would stop flinging your vulgarities out whenever you are cornered. If you are going to challenge folks, do it clean. If you can't stand your ground without taking an air or bringing it into the gutter, what point is there? And being a bit old school, it rankles me a bit to see you tossing some of your nasty phrasing at the women here. It is hard to argue with someone who so poorly represents the male gender and casts a pall on the rest of us by your actions. I have found when someone becomes so adamant in using your style of diatribe that eventually it develops how less of a man the individual is. This is pretty common to petty bullies and posing toughs. It makes that individual pretty worthless. Once the crowd catches that wind, that individual then becomes the runt of the litter. You can ruffle your chest hair all you want, but you have pretty much delegated yourself to that status. These folks Gordon have no reserve in their insults, versus many of the trolls that have passed by that they have maintained a bit of civility. It must be hard to walk in with a view you are so over the heads of folks here only to find out you take hindtit.
MeAndTheCat | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:51 pm | #
I appreciate your thoughts meandthecat. Sincerely.
But you really need to apply your lecture to your fellow liberals. I could log on here as pleasant as the next but if I share any conservative thoughts - I'm immedialty prosecuted. Run through this thread. Look at the behavior of your own people.
Wow. Gordon owns this thread. How'd you get them to dance like that, Gordon?
BlakNo1 | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:53 pm | #
Same old same old. You're all my dancing bears.
Damn. I didn't get a chance to ask WGG which Catch-22 scenes he was in. Anybody know?
-
Good evening my Moonbat Bitches!
I see your all salvating at the tragedy in Iraq. Have you no shame?
Gordon the Magnificent | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 10:36 pm |
bush, on the other hand, was a draft dodger.
Olaf glad and big | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:53 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Olaf,
One has to be drafted and then not report for duty to be a draft dodger. GW was never drafted since he volunteered.
Try to get the facts straight if you're going to run your suck.
Julian Borger in Washington
Tuesday August 12, 2003
The Guardian
Six Iraqis, including a father and three of his children, were killed in Baghdad at the weekend by US troops who opened fire on them as they hurried home to beat the curfew, it was reported yesterday.
The shootings took place in the Baghdad suburb of Slaykh on Friday, when the district was plunged into darkness by an explosion in a local transformer.
Survivors said they were given no warning before the US troops opened fire, and that it was impossible to know where the checkpoints were as they were moved with no warning.
Anwaar Kawaz, 36, lost her husband and three of their four children. "We kept shouting, 'We're a family, don't shoot.' But no one listened. They kept shooting," she told the Associated Press. She said the family had been on the way home and were fired on at 9.15pm, well before the 11pm curfew.
"There was no signal. We did not see anything but armoured cars," she said. "Our headlights were on. He [her husband] didn't have time to brake. He was shot in the forehead. I got out of the car to get help. I was shouting, 'Help me.' No one came."
Two other men were shot and killed in similar but separate incidents. A military spokesman in Baghdad had no comment.
Maybe if all the grown-ups leave, Gordo can whack off arguing with himself.
The trolls are too toxic tonight.
G'night all.
Yes, Gordo... your well-worn use of the word "cunt" shows your benevolence and interest in intelligent conversation.
Goodness me, how could we have misunderstood your sincere desire to engage in genteel, adult debate?
The Soviet Union? Red China? Reunified Germany? Revolutionary France? Modern Iran?
Not a single one was "sudden." Ass.
Soviet Union
First attempt at Revolution, 1905. Second attempt, 1917. Third (successful) attempt, also 1917.
Red China
Even if you ignore all but recent history, wherein China was Japan's bitch and they decided they didn't wanna be America's bitch, either (although one could argue they would have been better off had they been America's bitch), struggle and millions of lives made China what it is today, nothing "sudden" about it.
Reunified Germany?
Maybe "finally" unified Germany is more like it. Even the Bush I administration was pretty wobbly about it. And it wasn't "sudden" either.
Revolutionary France?
Now you fuckers want to celebrate France??? What will we call our fries now? BTW, was the French Revolution "sudden"? Addiontally, why is "Lafayette Park" named "Lafayette Park"? Where is it? And, who is depicted there?
You have a 2-page minimum, 5-page maximum. I'll release your grades on Monday.
Goodness me, how could we have misunderstood your sincere desire to engage in genteel, adult debate?
Ripley | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:57 pm | #
Will you ever stop whining?
Well Gordon, you may have a point, but I see their response as just that a reaction to your agitation. You have a history of disrupting threads for fun. So your appearance here creates an immediate and hostile reaction. Then as you attempt to insert supposedly germaine comments, it develops that all you do is want to argue and cop an attitude. As if a woman scorned. There have been a few trolls who actually did pose real questions and created real discourse. So far, you are zero on this issue from my observations. Stop acting like an idiot and some of these folks might stop responding so quickly.
M: (Knock)
A: Come in.
M: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
A: I told you once.
M: No you haven't.
A: Yes I have.
M: When?
A: Just now.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn't
A: I did!
M: You didn't!
A: I'm telling you I did!
M: You did not!!
A: Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
M: Oh, just the five minutes.
A: Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.
M: You most certainly did not.
A: Look, let's get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you.
M: No you did not.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn't.
A: Did.
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument.
A: Yes it is.
M: No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
A: No it isn't.
M: It is!
A: It is not.
M: Look, you just contradicted me.
A: I did not.
M: Oh you did!!
A: No, no, no.
M: You did just then.
A: Nonsense!
M: Oh, this is futile!
A: No it isn't.
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
A: Yes it is!
M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause)
A: No it isn't.
M: It is.
A: Not at all.
M: Now look.
A: (Rings bell) Good Morning.
M: What?
A: That's it. Good morning.
M: I was just getting interested.
A: Sorry, the five minutes is up.
M: That was never five minutes!
A: I'm afraid it was.
M: It wasn't.
Pause
A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.
M: What?!
A: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.
M: Yes, but that was never five minutes, just now. Oh come on!
A: (Hums)
M: Look, this is ridiculous.
A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
M: Oh, all right.
(pays money)
A: Thank you.
short pause
M: Well?
A: Well what?
M: That wasn't really five minutes, just now.
A: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.
M: I just paid!
A: No you didn't.
M: I DID!
A: No you didn't.
M: Look, I don't want to argue about that.
A: Well, you didn't pay.
M: Aha. If I didn't pay, why are you arguing? I Got you!
A: No you haven't.
M: Yes I have. If you're arguing, I must have paid.
A: Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time.
M: Oh I've had enough of this.
A: No you haven't.
M: Oh Shut up.
If by that you mean what I think you mean, no trouble. It's a http://www.usingenglish.com/refe...rbs/\\">phrasal verb.
No, no, it's a Looney Tunes reference. Bugs & Daffy are each telling Elmer to shoot the other one, and Bugs abruptly switches to "I demand that you shoot me now!", which Daffy automatically contradicts, and Elmer obliges. Daffy then asks to run through it again slowly, and at the crucial juncture says, "A-ha! Pronoun trouble." Possibly my favorite Looney Tunes line ever. Well, not counting Marvin The Martian, or Bugs pretending to be Gossamer's manicurist ("I think monsters must live such IN-teresting lives...").
Do NOT blame the troops.
Blame the US citzenry for not overthrowing its gov't by force.
And keep blaming them until they do.
It's our fault.
This is what Italian newspaper Repubblica.it is reporting (italian version first, then my own translation):
http://www.repubblica.it/2005/b/
...untosgrena.html
***********
[...] Ma intanto, a Bagdad, le cose prendono un'altra piega. Nella capitale irachena è ormai notte: e mentre un convoglio di tre fuoristrada blindati dei servizi di sicurezza militari italiani si dirige all'aeroporto, per far salire l'inviata del Manifesto a bordo del Falcon della presidenza del Consiglio, i militari Usa aprono il fuoco. Pioveva -dicono. Le auto arrivavano ad alta velocità, aggiungono. Sparano, gli americani, e uccidono Calipari. Poi non fanno avvicinare nessuno per molti minuti. La giornalista del Manifesto è ferita, ma non la fanno nemmeno scendere dalla macchina. Poi la ricoverano.
[...] In the meanwhile, in Bagdad, things take a different turn. It's already night. While a convoy of 3 armored all-terrain vehicles belonging to Italian military security is moving towards the airport to bring the Manifesto's journalist onboard the Italian Ministry's Falcon jet, the US military open fire. They say "it was raining." They add that "the cars were approaching at high speed." The Americans open fire and kill Calipari. Thereafter, they do not allow anybody close to the vehicle for several minutes. The Manifesto's journalist is injured, but they do not even allow her to get out of the car. Then, they bring her to an hospital.
***********
["Manifesto" is Sgrana's paper. Another Italian SISMI officer who was in the car is also in critical conditions]
G'night all.
flory | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:57 pm | #
don't let the door hit your ass.
Ripley, I'm so sorry you're having a terrible go of it. If you wish, you may email me and rant to your heart's content, but whatever you do, no checking out.
Ignore the fucking trolls; they will get bored and move on. They live for any kind of attention.
SteveLG - good (bad) material. Do you have it archived anywhere?
-
M: I want to complain.
C: You want to complain! Look at these shoes. I've only had them three weeks and the heels are worn right through.
M: No, I want to complain about...
C: If you complain nothing happens, you might as well not bother.
M: Oh!
C: Oh my back hurts, it's not a very fine day and I'm sick and tired of this office.
(Slams door. walks down corridor, opens next door.)
M: Hello, I want to... Ooooh!
H: No, no, no. Hold your head like this, then go Waaah. Try it again.
M: uuuwwhh!!
H: Better, Better, but Waah, Waah! Put your hand there.
M: No.
H: Now..
M: Waaaaah!!!
H: Good, Good! That's it.
M: Stop hitting me!!
H: What?
M: Stop hitting me!!
H: Stop hitting you?
M: Yes!
H: Why did you come in here then?
M: I wanted to complain.
H: Oh no, that's next door. It's being-hit-on-the-head lessons in here.
M: What a stupid concept.
More on Lafayette Park (for those studying):
Comte de Rochambeau and Chevalier du Portail, two French land army officers, are depicted on the west side of Lafayette's monument.
Du Portail was also a brigadier general and Chief Engineer in the Continental Army. He is recognized as 'the Father of the US Army's Corps of Engineers'.
Maird!
eli
tell us all about your new camera.
k thanks
Sweet Sue,
Your part of the problem, not the solution.
Possibly my favorite Looney Tunes line ever. Well, not counting Marvin The Martian, or Bugs pretending to be Gossamer's manicurist ("I think monsters must live such IN-teresting lives...").
Eli
I still vote for "Yoicks! And Awaaayy!" *thunk* or "What a nin-cow-poop! What an ultramaroon!" (as long as you include the bull popping Bugs on the noggin)
-
One has to be drafted and then not report for duty to be a draft dodger.
Don't be stupid, boy.
"Draft Dodger" or "Draft Evader" refers to legal means of avoiding being drafted and inducted (although it may include subterfuge to get oneself wrongfully included within such legal categories).
Refusing induction once one has been drafted is a crime, pure and simple.
The difference between dodging the draft and refusing induction is precisely the same as the difference between dodging a bullet and getting hit between the eyes.
Ignorant, rude boy you are.
Hi, Sue! *waves*
-
No, no, it's a Looney Tunes reference.
Ah, my mistake Eli. I defer to your clearly more sound (albeit cartoonish) judgement. I guess I am the maroon or, if you will, nin-com...
poop!
I am not sure if anyone has pointed this out already, but I have seen comments questioning the refusal to let people approach the car. This would make sense if they thought the vehicle was a possible suicide bomber. I would imagine they would confirm that they could approach it and not have it go off in there face. Given the actions so far stated, I would be very wary of the vehicle myself.
Sue, how have you been?
"Draft Dodger" or "Draft Evader" refers to legal means of avoiding being drafted and inducted (although it may include subterfuge to get oneself wrongfully included within such legal categories).
Ha Ha Ha! You can't be this fucking stupid?
So to avoid being drafted into the Armed Forces someone can dodge the draft by volunteering to serve in the Armed Forces?
You definetely rode the short bus to school, didn't you Stevey?
600th!!!!!
Whoooo Hoooo!!!
while the debate over iraq continues liberals and conservatives everywhere agree Gordon is a dumbass.
(gee - apologies for unwillingly re-posting the Repubblica.it quote several times - darn reload button).
NYMary - so far I read no explanation on the Italian online papers about those minutes after the shooting while Sgrana and the others were allegedly kept in the car.
Fielding, in all honesty I'm just sitting here (ignoring the trolls until I got pissed off just now) Googling words like
american
troops
iraq
civilian
checkpoints
trigger
happy
...and so on. It isn't difficult. Pages and pages and pages and pages. Almost all about different incidents. Almost none of it from United States media.
Sickening.
I've restricted myself for our purposes here to material published by our British and Australian allies (not Al-Jazeera or other mideast sources, of which plenty turn up).
I love my tiny slashed penis.
Gordon, if you're a day over seventeen you should be ashamed to admit it.
It's past your bedtime little man.
Well, it looks like the shit throwing monkeys have shown up to the party tonight. Someone should call the host and have them thrown out into the lake. Preferably, the a 100 pound weight tied to their ankles.
My daddy fucked me in the ass, and then my mom would fellate him.
Additional official US release:
The Italian Secret Service agent and the journalist threw themselves in front of the engine block to protect it from the defensive fire of elements of the multi-national peacekeeping force.
Gordon, if you're a day over seventeen you should be ashamed to admit it.
It's past your bedtime little man.
SteveLG | Email | Homepage | 03.05.05 - 12:12 am | #
It bothers you to be corrected by a 17 year old? What does that say about you Steve?
You obviously can't contend with my logic, can you?
Weakling.
Gordon, you have a strange site, I think.
I suspect the only thing you and I would agree on is the delightful nature of Manx.
NYMary - you still in here? Get ready for a grotesque snoopy dance from me if I win Jeffraham's music contest.
-
"Draft Dodger" or "Draft Evader" refers to legal means of avoiding being drafted and inducted (although it may include subterfuge to get oneself wrongfully included within such legal categories).
Ha Ha Ha! You can't be this fucking stupid?
So to avoid being drafted into the Armed Forces someone can dodge the draft by volunteering to serve in the Armed Forces?
You definetely rode the short bus to school, didn't you Stevey?
Gordon the Magnificent | Email | Homepage | 03.05.05 - 12:07 am | #
-----------------------------------
Since he didnt because he, like many others, agreed with the war yet wasnt willing to fight for it. Tell me Gordo, was it really that difficult for a young male to get into vietnam in the 1970s?
Gordon, you have a strange site, I think.
I suspect the only thing you and I would agree on is the delightful nature of Manx.
Sarah Deere | Email | Homepage | 03.05.05 - 12:13 am | #
i'll never have a another breed of cat than manx, Sarah
incredibly loyal and sporty got him at the pound and thought he had no tail because it was closed in a door
gordo el maricon is just bitchy cause his pal didn't give him a reach around when he was fucking his ass earlier...
he's also mad cause his butt buddy didn't use the thick lube and things got a little "dry"...
gordo hates it when his boyfriend is so inconsiderate.
anyway,
troll condom is back on now...
bernadine healy was pathetic on Bill Maher tonight. she got her ass handded to her by Reno and Foley.
Since he didnt because he, like many others, agreed with the war yet wasnt willing to fight for it. Tell me Gordo, was it really that difficult for a young male to get into vietnam in the 1970s?
shawn | Email | Homepage | 03.05.05 - 12:14 am | #
who wasn't willing to fight for it? are you telling me that if you volunteer for the armed forces that you're unwilling to fight for it?
Hey ugly bag, I've been meaning to ask you: have you seen this movie? Or are you referring to the original microbrain? (No, I don't mean Gordo.)
"was it really that difficult for a young male to get into vietnam in the 1970s?"
I remember as a child, waiting for a standby flight from Travis to Hawaii with my parents. We were bumped off of several flights so those endless lines of eager G.I.'s could get into Viet Nam.
I would have fought in vietnam but I was too young.
Iraq?
Fuck THAT shit, I'm a coward at heart.
Artist/Band: Ochs Phil
Lyrics for Song: Draft Dodger Rag
Lyrics for Album: There But for Fortune
Oh, I'm just a typical American boy from a typical American town
I believe in God and Senator Dodd and a-keepin' old Castro down
And when it came my time to serve I knew "better dead than red"
But when I got to my old draft board, buddy, this is what I said:
CHORUS
Sarge, I'm only eighteen, I got a ruptured spleen
And I always carry a purse
I got eyes like a bat, and my feet are flat, and my asthma's getting worse
Yes, think of my career, my sweetheart dear, and my poor old invalid aunt
Besides, I ain't no fool, I'm a-goin' to school
And I'm working in a DEE-fense plant
I've got a dislocated disc and a wracked up back
I'm allergic to flowers and bugs
And when the bombshell hits, I get epileptic fits
And I'm addicted to a thousand drugs
I got the weakness woes, I can't touch my toes
I can hardly reach my knees
And if the enemy came close to me
I'd probably start to sneeze
I'm only eighteen, I got a ruptured spleen
And I always carry a purse
I got eyes like a bat, and my feet are flat, and my asthma's getting worse
Yes, think of my career, my sweetheart dear, and my poor old invalid aunt
Besides, I ain't no fool, I'm a-goin' to school
And I'm working in a DEE-fense plant
Ooh, I hate Chou En Lai, and I hope he dies,
Onething you gotta see
That someone's gotta go over there
And that someone isn't me
So I wish you well, Sarge, give 'em Hell!
Kill me a thousand or so
And if you ever get a war without blood and gore
I'll be the first to go
Yes, I'm only eighteen, I got a ruptured spleen
And I always carry a purse
I got eyes like a bat, and my feet are flat, and my asthma's getting worse
Yes, think of my career, my sweetheart dear, and my poor old invalid aunt
Besides, I ain't no fool, I'm a-goin' to school
And I'm working in a DEE-fense plant
Why would anyone try to go to Vietnam?
Gordon sucked me off last night, after he begged me to let him do so.
I broke my previous promise to him, and pulled out right before the crucial moment, and came all over his face.
He liked it a lot . . . in spite of his previous protestations to me to the contrary.
We agreed to get together again next week.
So lay off him. The guy sucks dick like a vacuum cleaner.
Plus, when he's down on all fours taking it like the bitch he is, you should hear the sounds that come out of his mouth . . . .
All I can say is that it is music to my ears.
Oh, by the way, Gordo, Honey-buns (and his buns ARE like honey), the reason Dubya never was drafted was because his daddy's influential friends pulled strings to get him into the Texas Air National Guard ahead of much more qualified applicants.
In other words, he dodged the draft by running away into the TANG, and having his family's connections enable him to get away with it.
Any more questions, sweetheart?
Please ask them of me before you get down to your next round of tossing my salad.
tell us all about your new camera.
Hopefully that wasn't sarcasm... So far I'm liking it pretty well. I'm thrilled to have a "real" camera again - I haven't used an SLR or a camera with a manual mode in about 12 years (I have an ancient, fully-manual Pentax Spotmatic that's older than I am - its lightmeter is a plus, a minus, and a needle).
Right now the biggest downsides are:
1) I don't think I'm getting the degree of crispness I should theoretically be getting - if the camera has higher resolution than my monitor, then I think everything should look absolutely crystal clear. This may have something to do with optimization settings, not using RAW format, so I've switched over to that, but the jury's still out. And there's always the sharpening options in the photo processing software.
2) The viewfinder is small and rather unhelpful. It's okay for composing shots, but it's too small to manually focus with any confidence, and the depth-of-field preview is just completely useless IMO.
I'm also a little weirded out by not having a dedicated exposure dial or aperture ring, which I'm also used to.
There's a lot of customization, cool features like multiple focus and metering modes and spots (this may not be new stuff, but it's certainly news to me), a lot of which I may never exercise.
If you want a more direct idea of how the new camera is treating me (and vice versa), check out my digital photo gallery on Yahoo.
Turkey deploys 1,357 troops in Northern Iraq
ANKARA, March 3 Turkey has deployed 1,357 military personnel in northern Iraq to fight against members of the outlawed Kurdish Workers' Party (PKK), said Turkish National Defense Minister Vecdi Gonul on Thursday
http://news.xinhuanet.com/
englis...ent_2646500.htm
Lots of fags here.
Can't answer the question can you Steve?
I guess your a question dodger.
who wasn't willing to fight for it? are you telling me that if you volunteer for the armed forces that you're unwilling to fight for it?
Gordon the Magnificent | Email | Homepage | 03.05.05 - 12:16 am | #
That was the funniest thing I've ever seen on the internets.
Those Vietcong never made into our bars in Alabama, that's for sure!
Oh, by the way, Gordo, Honey-buns (and his buns ARE like honey), the reason Dubya never was drafted was because his daddy's influential friends pulled strings to get him into the Texas Air National Guard ahead of much more qualified applicants.
In other words, he dodged the draft by running away into the TANG, and having his family's connections enable him to get away with it.
Any more questions, sweetheart?
Are you saying that joining the National Guard is draft dodging?
who wasn't willing to fight for it? are you telling me that if you volunteer for the armed forces that you're unwilling to fight for it?
Gordon the Magnificent | Email | Homepage | 03.05.05 - 12:16 am | #
Gordon if you we're alive during the period you would understand, non college-attending males had basiclly 2 options: join the army, be drafted. My father joined the air force due to this fact, so during 68-74 he was hangin out in france, germany, and the netherlands while american's where being killed in nam. Ask him today and he'll tell you without shame that he was avioding vietnam the only legal way he could, joining the military. If he really wanted to fight, he would have joined a more on-the-ground branch, like the army.
Are you saying that joining the National Guard is draft dodging?
Gordon the Magnificent | Email | Homepage | 03.05.05 - 12:22 am | #
When you use your family connections to leap over those on the list, and then don't bother to show up, yes that's draft dodging.
(Oops, should be optimization settings *and/or* not using RAW format. You can also check out my homepage for some highlights)
Nope.
You're factually erronous. All of you numbfucks. Aperson doesn't doge the draft by volunteering to serve in the Armed Forces.
By your own weak arguemnt, every single member of the Armed Forces since 1975 is therefore a draft dodger.
Substance Abuse Ward, Mother of Sweating Jebus Hospital & Nursing Home, Yrtown, USA
Intervention report re: Gordon T Magnificent
Mr Magnificent was committed at the wishes of family after a bar fight which he intitiated and then lost badly, resulting in an emergency room visit (this was a lifelong pattern). He tends toward violent and abusive behavior, particularly toward the female staff. We have had to keep him in the Rubber Room, wearing the extremely long-sleeved jacket for extended periods.
Recently, we have noted granting Mr Magnificent Internet access has made him more tractable here at the home. It seems he uses comment threads to exorcise his delusions of grandeur, physical strength and intelligence, all of which have been greatly impaired by his substance abuse and possible natural imbalances.
Prognosis: unfit to mix with the general public. As long as his insurance holds up he will be safe here, however, as Mr Magnificent's investment portfolio is dwindling rapidly, it may not be long before he is on the street. We have been unable to reach any family members- they have moved, leaving no forwarding address.
So waht are you saying Shawn?
That your Dad was a coward?
That's so incredibly weak. You clearly have no concept of how the Armed Forces run.
Gordon, in all seriousness, what happened to you as a child? I mean, something particularly traumatic must have occurred to make you the hate-filled person that you are today. Please seek help immediately.
Shut your piehole Charlotte.
eli
I'm only insincere to trolls. I am dying to get a new camera (dslr) as I've outgrown the usefulness of my current pro/sumer model.
Sharpness on digital cameras, I've found, relies on the focus of your lens, but you can fake it a lot more with the unsharp mask filter on photoshop. The numbers I use are 120%, .7 pixels, and 2-4 threshold.
I personally haven't messed around with .raw too much, but if your original shot is properly focused, it's not going to make that big a difference.
But the best thing with digital-just keep shooting til you fill up your card.
So waht are you saying Shawn?
That your Dad was a coward?
That's so incredibly weak. You clearly have no concept of how the Armed Forces run.
Gordon the Magnificent | Email | Homepage | 03.05.05 - 12:28 am | #
He didn't believe in the war but he loved his country. so he joined the safest branch of the military since WWII, the air force.
Bush on the other hand could've easily fought in the war, especially with his euthusiam for it and physical strength. Yet for some reason he too, join the af.. Also during nam is wasnt unusual for drafties to end up on the front lines just a few months after training.
Heh. A line of moonbats crapping on the service of our Veterans and the Harlot asks Gordon why he's full of hate.
You're father must be real proud of you, shawn, knowing you think he's a draft dodging coward.
By your own weak arguemnt, every single member of the Armed Forces since 1975 is therefore a draft dodger.
Gordon the Magnificent
Sorry. I'm too fucking brain-dead to know that the US military draft ended in 1973.
Are you saying that joining the National Guard is draft dodging?
Ayup. Not one's first choice, to be sure... but if you were out of alternatives of the sort Mr. Ochs sang about, it beat going to Vietnam as a grunt.
The notorious "Champagne Unit" of the Guard was also graced by the son of former Gov. John Connally, both sons of Sen. Lloyd Bentsen, Bobby Sakowaitz (Houston department store money), the grandson of H.L. Hunt (Dallas Oil) and several players for the Dallas Cowboys football team.But it isn't worth my time trying to educate you, son. If you tried to read a little instead of broadcasting your ignorance, hostility and vulgarity over the internets you might improve yourself a little. Maybe.
Sharpness on digital cameras, I've found, relies on the focus of your lens, but you can fake it a lot more with the unsharp mask filter on photoshop. The numbers I use are 120%, .7 pixels, and 2-4 threshold.
I personally haven't messed around with .raw too much, but if your original shot is properly focused, it's not going to make that big a difference.
Well, I don't really trust autofocus entirely, but the viewfinder is so small that I don't have much choice. I did stop down as much as possible, but it still leaves something to be desired.
I'll mess around with Photoshop some more (I think SWR recommended the same or very similar settings to me, actually), and also see if there's any real difference between the RAW & the jpeg images (I shot some in RAW+JPG mode, so I can compare apples-to-apples).
So waht are you saying Shawn?
That your Dad was a coward?
That's so incredibly weak. You clearly have no concept of how the Armed Forces run.
Gordon the Magnificent | Email | Homepage | 03.05.05 - 12:28 am | #
He didn't believe in the war but he loved his country. so he joined the safest branch of the military since WWII, the air force.
Bush on the other hand could've easily fought in the war, especially with his euthusiam for it and physical strength. Yet for some reason he too, join the af.. Also during nam is wasnt unusual for drafties to end up on the front lines just a few months after training.
You're factually erronous.
Can't.. control.. mirth.. spelling errors, redundancy.. too.. great..
-
So waht are you saying Shawn?
That your Dad was a coward?
That's so incredibly weak. You clearly have no concept of how the Armed Forces run.
Gordon the Magnificent | Email | Homepage | 03.05.05 - 12:28 am | #
He didn't believe in the war but he loved his country. so he joined the safest branch of the military since WWII, the air force.
Bush on the other hand could've easily fought in the war, especially with his euthusiam for it and physical strength. Yet for some reason he too, join the af.. Also during nam is wasnt unusual for drafties to end up on the front lines just a few months after training.
gordon, if you were drafted in the late 60s-early 70s you were drafted into the army. you went to basic training, then to advanced infantry training, then to vietnam. you really didn't know this?
On the same day President "W" Bush sent our troops into battle in Iraq he attempted to cut the budget of the VA so there would not be adequate funds to treat those who fell in battle.
http://www.vetsforjustice.com/
You're father must be real proud of you, shawn, knowing you think he's a draft dodging coward.
BlakNo1 | Email | Homepage | 03.05.05 - 12:36 am | #
He joined the miliary, during vietnam, yet doesnt claim to be a war-veteran like bush does. I'm finding nowa days conservatives like: hannity, limbaugh, rove are nowhere near war yet in total support of it. whereas crazies like: kerry, mccain, cleland fought and almost died for this country and get critisized for being anti-american.
you really didn't know this?
:::leaves rustle, crickets chirp:::
Apparently not.
Hey, OlafG'n'B: Have you been to the Ram's Head Live in Baltimore yet? Really nice venue (although it was a crappy turnout for Solomon Burke). Got myself a couple of way too expensive tickets to see Elvis Costello (w/David Hidalgo of Los Lobos on guitar!) in April.
Shift change?
man, i don't get out enough, stevelg. i didn't even know there was a ram's head in baltimore. where is it? i've been to the one in annapolis, but not in a long time. great place to see a show.
Gordon, in all seriousness, what happened to you as a child? I mean, something particularly traumatic must have occurred to make you the hate-filled person that you are today. Please seek help immediately.
When Gordo was a baby, his mother had him in one arm and a quart of Old Milwaukee in the other. She lost her balance and knew she would have to drop one of the other. So she saved her quart and dropped Gordo on his head.
The Baltimore Rams Head reminds me of an up to date version of the old Bayou in lower Georgetown, DC. That's a compliment.
The fire marshall's sign says capacity is 482. Bars on the main floor and the balcony. Very limited seating.
Annapolis Rams Head is great, too.
Later. . . I'm checking out... hey, I've never seen a troll just evaporate like that, have you? Wish it was permanent.
He really had no clue about Vietnam and the draft. I'm afraid that's typical of winger kids. Probably a lot of lefty kids too, now that I think about it.
There's an assumption amongst some that U.S. troops are either negligent (or homicidal or worse), or that the Italians did something to "ask for it".
I don't think that's the most likely. Most likely, we have a bunch of folks that are humans first and troops (and possibly not all that well trained, at that) second. They're constantly under the gun, getting fired on and blown up from all directions, and not the least sure about anybody or anything. They have itchy trigger fingers (and for "good reasons", self-preservation being high on the list). While you'd like them to follow rules to the letter, you can't be surprised when they act as they do (not even adding in any generalized paranoia and racism about the whole fockin' place being a bunch of Ay-rabs that hate our guts, as quite a few probably also believe).
The whole thing starts smelling a lot more and more like Vietnam, where a frustrated major military power sent huma... -- err, "troops" -- over into a hellhole where casualites mounted day by day, where there was no clear "us" and no clear "them", and where this forseeably ended up in such things as the My Lai massacre. . . .
The folks on top should know that this is the situation and acknowledge it, and either do something about it (or better yet, have done something about it), or be held to accoutn for their actions and their cavalier unconcern for the loss of innocent life.
But Bushco won't do any such thing. Admitting problems just ain't in their repertoire (yeah, that's a French word, which may explain it).
Cheers,
Gordon, what's your LGF name? I'd like to read some of your writings there.
Ah yes, Kerry. Wounded himself, faked medals, then abandoned his crew in Vietnam.
Now there's a real hero.
Silver Star with a combat "V" HAHAHAHAHA
Freedom on the march in Lebanon and Syria, torture in the Gitmo gulag:
Little Earthquakes
MSM's gutlessness in Gannongate:
A River In Egypt
Someone else"
Atrios, didn't Hecate pony up some money a while back, to get someone banned? What was the price?
Tobee:
Always trying to push people you don't agree with to the back of the bus, eh?
Tobee, with the length of your bus, there is no "back".
That said, no one has banned you, for which you ought to be grateful, and STFU about your gripes about supposedly being silenced.
Cheers,
Trolls are simply Gannons looking for a date.
Isn't this was Coulter wanted?
The American military has no accountability. American soldiers only get into trouble when they're made scapegoats and patsies for the higher-ups.
That's why shit like this, Abu Ghraib, slaughtered non-combatants, defenceless and/or injured combatants being executed instead of taken prisoner, and friendly fire all happen.
You don't see other troops doing stuff like this anywhere near as much as American troops, and when you do they are held very much accountable. Look at how seriously and severely the British are taking the abuses of prisoners by their troops, which really is an isolated case very much unlike the US. Or the extensive investigations the Australians held into their own troops' shooting into a speeding car that didn't stop when approaching a checkpoint, and which only injured one Iraqi woman. Compare that to the dozens of cases (at least, and that we've even heard of) of American troops incinerating or shooting up carloads of Iraqis, including families.
The American military is mainly a bunch of trigger-happy, brutal, unaccountable, probably underprepared and overworked thugs. To them the Iraqis are haji untermenschen.
no, this was intended to be a hit.
the italian journalist was targeted for a kill.
and it would have happened had it not been for the italian agent who sacrificed himself to save her.
she knows way too much.
i wonder if she will ever make it back to italy?
jeez, i am a pathethic idiot...
It's time to stop pussyfooting.
We have become nazis. Our soldiers are like any other population mix, where you will have rotten apples, heros, just regular guys, and anything in between. STOP making them all into angels, they are soldiers...their main job is to kill, destroy. They are NOT the peace corps.
They are necessary, but by ever indication since this war started, THEY HAVE NO LEADERSHIP.
Abu Gharaib is not hard to understand given the prejudicial statements of Rumsfeld, Bush, Wolfowitz, et. al. "these are the worst of the worst", "the bad guys", etc. etc. "the gloves are off"...
All inflamatory and as it turns out the highest percentage of the captive are innocent.
It has been reported from day one, (Itaqis will tell you) that anytime a loud noise happens around american soldiers they fire indiscriminitely all around them. Hear a noise, hit the deck is what we've taught Iraq.
While I can understand it, and would probably find it hard to impossible not to react the same way if I were there, that is where LEADERSHIP comes into the picture, that and discipline. Armys don't respect life, but they ought to respect CIVILIAN life more than they do now.
We have become nazis. All we are missing are the ovens.
Sorry if you don't like to hear it, but it is time to put away childish things (like Janets breast, Michaels trial, Desperate Housewives. etc. etc. etc.) and focus on that we have become nazis and if that disgusts you you ought to be shouting in the streets, writing letters, and getting it it to stop.
First step, impeach the nazi chimp.
This has gone far enough.
Its a reminder of what must be happening to ordinary Iraqis every day at our checkpoints.
Damn right, we have become Nazis.
And Gordo is example number one of a wanna-be SA idiot.
Can you folks believe how fuckin' ignorant Gordo is?
Jesus, he has shown me how to come to political power if I'm a right winger.
Just find all the undereducated, stupid, and disaffected morons and manipulate them by pumping them full of lies and misinformation. They are easy prey, after all.
the shitty mistake was made by Americans in charge of protocol at the checkpoint.
If someone fired "warning shots" at me, I wouldn't *k*n*o*w* it was a warning. Maybe try to get the hell out, asap, gun it.
In NYT article, a US spokesman said maybe communicating in another way, like, duh, a stop sign would be good idea.
Probably inevitable in war, that many casualties are due to the language barrier, but on a civilian road, we'd better learn to communicate better.
the Good Germans don't care - they can go buy plastic toys and cars...
if the smeel gets to great, the Good Germans place camphor under their noses - no problem now...
look at afghanistan - the largest opium poppy crop in a LONG time - thanks to democracy!
the we hear that us who complain are simply blaming america - OF COURSE WE ARE - WHO ELSE SHOULD WE BLAME?
the whole 'don't blame america' concept comes from an elitism based on non-existent facts that america somehow is the most righteous and correct land on the planet.
those of us who do blame ourselves - see that not only do we do much wrong, but that we also are indifferent to those acts.
What watertiger said at the beginning of the thread.
And if the actual incident isn't bad enough, ac comes along and makes everyone feel even more uncomfortable. Wonder if we'll ever find out what really happened here and why.
We have become nazis. All we are missing are the ovens.
Tom Joad
Actually, the wide dispersal of Depleted Uranium by the US military is a holocaust, if you understand that 'holocaust' means a massive and indiscriminate burning of the planet and its creatures.
Our methods are more insidious than the Nazis, but no less evil...
nor preventable.
uh, atrios? You might want to revise your hands off on this tragedy. Reports coming out of Italy say that the car was 700 meters from the airport and had passed all checkpoints when it was fired upon. then there's this from kos:
Sgrena's Father: US Tried to Assasinate Daughter
by gilgamesh
Sat Mar 5th, 2005 at 07:07:47 PDT
During a press-conference shortly after the liberation of his daughter Giuliana Sgrena, the famous journalist for Il Manifesto who was kidnapped and held hostage in Iraq for nearly a month, Piero Scolari had this to say:
It's like an hallucination, all of this is like an hallucination. Giuliana risked her lifed, they could have killed her. And I don't mean Iraqi criminal gangs but American soldiers. We are in the hands of madmen. We can't stay another minute longer down there. They fired more than 300-400 rounds on the car that was taking Giuliana to the airport... they were like madmen, our agents down there said, immediately after the shooting stopped. Complete insanity. They killed Nicola Calipari, an extraordinary man, a special person. Nicola died in order to save Giuliana, he shielded her with his body.
While the precise details of the shooting still remain unclear, and an angry Premier Silvio Berlusconi is demanding that the Bush administration conduct a thorough investigation to ensure that "someone assumes the responsibility for what has happened here," Scolari has provided what, so far, seems to be the most complete, albeit unofficial, account of the incident that I could find. According to l'Unità, Scolari stated:
"The Americans shut down the cell phones of our agents who were with Giuliana. They shut them off while they [the agents] were speaking with Silvio Berlusconi, they prevented the emergency medical technicians from approaching the wounded," Scolari recounts, basing himself on the eyewitness testimony of the Italian secret service agents at the scene. But how is it possible that all this was allowed to happen?"
In that moment I shouted at the premier [Berlusconi] that your war is to blame for this. This war is madness and these are the results that it produces."
Scolari dismisses as ridiculous the official story-line that has been circulating in US military circles that "the car was driving at full speed toward the American check point" where the shooting
took place.
Giuliana and the other people who were there told me that the American attack was completely unjustified. They had allerted the whole chain of command, the Italian troops were awaiting them at the airport. Any yet, they fired 300, 400 rounds. Why?
Then the accusation:
Giuliana is in possession of information that is inconvenient for the Americans, it was an ambush directed against her.
The anguished ravings of an aggravated and aggrieved father? Or is there something more to this story then we yet know?
Meanwhile, Piero Fassino,
Meanwhile, Piero Fassino, secretary of the DS (Democrats of the Left), commenting publicly on the incident, stated:
"It's incredible that a man [Calipari] who was engaged in the difficult work of saving a life was killed by those who claim to be in Iraq in order to protect the lives of its citizens.
Was their or wasn't their coordination between our intelligence serivces in Iraq and the other intelligence services of the forces of the coalition? Were their information-sharing procedures that were agreed upon in advance between our intelligence services and the American military forces? And,if so, why did the check point start firing?."
Good question, Piero. Your (dkos) correspondent in Italy will continue digging into this story so as to keep you up-to-date on this mysterious series of events.
" This war is madness and these are the results that it produces."
TAKE. DOWN. THE. US. GOV'T. NOW!
Support our stormtroopers!
Upthread, Toby commented about our crowd pushing people off the bus who we don't agree with right after he proposed purging losers.
Can the trolls at least keep their story straight?
the we hear that us who complain are simply blaming america - OF COURSE WE ARE - WHO ELSE SHOULD WE BLAME?
No.
We criticize the policy of our government because it's a failure. We're Americans, after all. That's not just our right, it's our responsibility.
Proxies for the failed regime will then say that we hate our whole country. In this way, they can change the subject from the subject at hand (which they apparently can't handle) to us (who were their target all along).
In this way, a tiny cabal of bumbling mandarins can hide behind an army of hicks. No matter how bad they hurt our country, if you oppose them, you must be "blaming America." This relieves them of having to frame arguments.
And it's a damned good thing.
For them.
.
In this way, a tiny cabal of bumbling mandarins can hide behind an army of hicks.
Paraphrasing Utah Phillips:
That tiny cabal of bumbling madarins have names and addresses.
It's time to deal with them directly.
That tiny cabal of bumbling madarins have names and addresses.
It's time to deal with them directly.
DA | Email | Homepage | 03.05.05 - 11:05 am | #
Why does DA hate America?
This is just another example of the "blame America first" crowd...
See? See how easy that was?
.
Either you got hair trigger maniacs guarding the road to the airport or you got killers who target left wing journalists who are critical of the US in Iraq.
Either way not good.
Let's get the flock outta there before our fair youth become jugend.
Let's get the flock outta there before our fair youth become jugend.
It's too late.
They already have.
God dammit, I want my country back. I don't want to live in 1930's Germany.
Or 1940's Germany, for that matter.
Can I have my job back now?
Why do right wing trolls HATE women so much?
"he whole 'don't blame america' concept comes from an elitism based on non-existent facts that america somehow is the most righteous and correct land on the planet."
Oh and god forbid, don't dare CRITICIZE Murka either.
What bullshit!
But you really need to apply your lecture to your fellow liberals. I could log on here as pleasant as the next but if I share any conservative thoughts - I'm immedialty prosecuted. Run through this thread. Look at the behavior of your own people.
Gordon the Magnificent | Email | Homepage | 03.04.05 - 11:54 pm | #
Forget it folks. Gordon's a first-class asshole, and does the same thing on his own execrable blog (if not worse; he not only forges the posts of others there, he goes to the server files and actually alters the substantive posts of others into puerile comment, destroying any semblance of sapience in such threads, compared to simply overwhelming the few rational comments with a lot of crud like he's doing here).
Gordon is a first-class argument for banning; a remedy I don't often advocate, but given his blatant dishonest behaviour on his own blog, one that is justifiable. The only workable alternative is to get everyone to simply ignore him and his posts, otherwise, he'll thoroughly destroy any thread he shows up on.
One or the other. But don't respond to him, in any case. Please.
Here's an idea, folks: Rather than banning, why not just flag his submissions (and those of others on the shitlist) with a "foamer flag" (and maybe set off the comments in a putrid puce colour), to let people know that he should be simply laughed at and ignored? Someone should work on the scripts for such; couldn't be much harder than managing a simple "ban list". . . .
Cheers,
Adding to my last suggestion, it would be a neat add-on to link in pointers to the most gruesome or hilarious examples of his past misbehaviour with such "flagging". Rubbing his nose in his own shite automatically every time he posts might convince him to move on to other pastures. . . .
What say? Anyone with Holoscan-hacking skills?
Cheers,
As a European, like the poor guys who were shot, I get increasingly tired of this understanding "let's not blame the troops", "fuck-ups will happen", "never mind" attitude, even on supposedly liberal US blogs. How many other such crimes by YOUR GOVERNMENT, YOUR TROOPS, PAID FOR BY YOUR TAXES, are you going to condone and excuse?
I feel complete empathy with the rage currently prevailing in Italy.
You (the US and UK) are the bad guys in this situation, if not the only ones certainly the ones who started this bloodbath. All this automatic minimizing or denying your collective responsibility, and going along, in effect, with the total non-accountability of the guilty parties, is just not good enough.
When it becomes obvious that you have lost the respect of everyone else in the world, as a society and country, you will have only yourselves to blame.
The web page for Il Manifesto is
http://www.ilmanifesto.it/
already translated for your convenience in several languages.
I agree totally, Marissa. Atrios is pretty good at nailing the other so-called "left" bloggers (Drum, Beinart, and JMM to an extent) when they agree with the military action in Iraq, or when they give a pass to the right wing that it simply doesn't deserve.
But this isn't the first time that Atrios has wanted to give the American military the benefit of the doubt, blaming instead the so-called "fog of war", or saying just that "shit happens" in war.
See also my comment at 2:58am.
Eye witness claims the shooting was deliberate. http://www.commondreams.org/head...s05/0305-
05.htm
Did this incident happen at night? If so there may been little if any light. If I were driving in the dark? Could these people even have seen there was a roadblock. Without street lights it can be very very dark.
Shit happens if you don't care for precautions. Like training your soldiers for peacekeeping missions. As far as I can see from media reports, news about military personel (like this marine general who loves to kill muslims) and the movies ( guess 'full metal jacket' isn't far from the truth) US soldiers are trained for killing and nothing else. You can't put these killing machines into duty like checkpoint procedures and still think everything will go well.
It's quite possible the soldiers behaved appropriately in that if, as claimed, the car was speeding towards a checkpoint then their actions are perfectly understandable.
It's also possible that it was a setup. Why don't you let the facts emerge before writing this fucking blather? Her previous assignment was in Fallujah where there is little doubt that the US slaughtered thousands of civillians.
I apologize if that's appeared already upthread (couldn't read the whole thing), but the agent who was wounded in the car (a href="http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?
type=topNews&storyID=7816391&pageNumber=2">thinks it was deliberate: "I hope the Italian government does something because either this was an ambush, as I think, or we are dealing with imbeciles or terrorized kids who shoot at anyone."
I've also seen reports in the Brazilian press that (a) the car was hit by approximately 400 bullets; (b) there was no warning at all, they were hit immediately after a curve when they had passed ALL the known checkpoints and were only 700 meters away from the airport; and (c) the Italians had warned everyone about the trip to the airport.
Weirder and weirder...
Sorry for the mangled post. Let's try again: the agent's words appeared in a Reuters piece.
They say the car was shot because it was speeding towards a US check point on the way to the airport. When Anderson Cooper from CNN did his piece on Iraq he pointed out that the road to the airport is one of the most dangerous stretches of road in the country and everyone drives as fast as possible. So speeding is not that uncommon.
I agree that you can't blame the troops because the fog of war does obscure judgement, if even in subtle ways. However, when a government launches a war of choice, the casualties from that choice fall directly on the heads of those at the top making the decisions. The Italian people are right be to pissed about this.
I just read in La Repubblica that there was no checkpoint where Sgrena's car was fired upon: a military vehicle (apparently on the side of the road) turned on a searchlight and opened fire.
The moral of the tale would seem to be "if you're going to assassinate a car full of people, be sure you get them all, especially if two of the survivors are military intelligence agents."
Of course you can blame the troops - see above.
And the fate that hit the Italians is the fate hitting countless Iraqis Western press doesn't care about.
"Shit happens if you don't care for precautions. Like training your soldiers for peacekeeping missions."
The problem runs deeper: you can't behave like this even in a proper war if that war rolls over civilian-inhabited territory. Geneva Conventions and all that.
Libby Doles has a pudenda that never enda, and it does indeed flap in the wind when walks she outside.
A mistake to draw conclusions? What a ridiculous statement.
I'm not sure what is more annoying: Atrios' obsession with using abortion rights as a brightline between good and evil Democrats, or the way he frequently gives GWB and Cheney the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the Iraq war.
The shooting of Sgrena (and two Italian intel officers, btw) and the killing of Calipari on the road to the Baghdad airport that hasn't yet been made safe in almost two years demonstrates, *at the very least*, what happens when you violate the Powell Doctrine.
The death of Calipari is on the heads not of the grunts, but of their Commander-in-Chief.
Latest from Giuliana's partner Scolari (from La Repubblica.it)
14:59 Scolari: "Militari Usa hanno impedito i soccorsi"
"I militari Usa hanno impedito i soccorsi per alcuni minuti e hanno impedito che chiunque si avvicinasse all'auto". Lo ha detto Pier Scolari entrando all'ospedale del Celio. "Giuliana aveva avuto delle informazioni secondo le quali gli Usa non l'avrebbero lasciata tornare viva a casa. Il governo ha l'obbligo di fare luce e gli Usa devono avere il coraggio di dire che in Iraq siamo in mano a dei ragazzini", ha aggiunto Scolari.
US soldiers prevented first aid.
"The US soldiers prevented first aid for several minutes and prevented anyone from coming near the car", said Pier Scolari as he entered Celio (military) hospital. "Giuliana had had information that the USA wouldn't let her return home alive. The Government must cast light on what happened and the USA must have the courage to say that in Iraq we are in the hands of teenagers", he added.
14:56 Scolari: "Giuliana ha raccolto manciate di proiettili"
"Giuliana ha raccolto decine di proiettili, a manciate, erano tutti sul sedile dopo la sparatoria". Lo ha detto Pier Scolari, aggiungendo che "Calipari aveva fatto quella strada tantissime volte e quindi si potrebbe pensare male: che gli americani non volevano il lieto fine. Questo è un motivo buono per andare via dall'Iraq".
"Giuliana has collected handfuls of bullets"
"Giuliana collected dozens of bullets, by the handful, they were all on the carseat after the shooting", said Pier Scolari, adding that "Calipari had travelled along that road a great many times, so there is reason to suspect foul play: that the Americans didn't want the happy ending. This is a good reason to leave Iraq".
Giuliana Sgrena and wounded Italian military intel agent have been interviewed by Italian magistrate... after he left she spoke with press, said it was a PATROL not a checkpoint - suddenly found themselves in that shot at them, shot immediately with no warning whatsoever, instant massive hail of bullets and no chance to communicate - confirms the car was NOT speeding, was travelling at slowish normal speed.
"Non era un check point, ma una pattuglia che ha sparato appena dopo averci illuminato con un faro. Non si è capita la provenienza dei proiettili, precedentemente non avevamo incontrato posti di blocco".
" IT WAS NOT A CHECKPOINT BUT A PATROL THAT SHOT AT US IMMEDIATELY AFTER HAVING TURNED A LIGHT ON US. WE COULDN?T UNDERSTAND WHERE THE BULLETS WERE COMING FROM, BEFORE THAT WE HADN'T ENCOUNTERED ANY CHECKPOINTS"
(Giuliana Sgrena)
http://www.repubblica.it/2005/c/...loc/
nveloc.html
In Irack, there are two types of checkpoints: those that are fixed and those that are placed at random. The fixed checkpoints people tend to know about by now, but it is the randomly shifting unfixed checkpoints that tend to take drivers by surprise.
Thus, I bet the U.S. soldiers out on patrol set up a random checkpoint and whoever was driving the Italian car may have thought some guerillas were trying to waylay them. And after all the Italian intelligence agents had been through to free the Italian hostage, the driver decided not to take the chance and tried to run the randomly-placed checkpoint.
My heart still aches for the Italian agent who gave his life to protect the hostage they had just freed and who was under their care.
And my heart aches for the U.S. soldiers and how they must have felt upon discovering at whom they had just been firing.
War is insane. And anyone getting us into an unnecessary war is definitely insane. Ergo, Bush is insane.
BBC described Segrena as a toughened war correspondent. She knew damn well who fired on her and we better demand to know why!
Too bad that Eason Jordan isn't around to help us discover the truth.
You ought to read the comments over at Yahoo about this! The cons are in a frenzy!
"they ran a checkpoint...." "they were speeding towards soldiers..." "'They f-cked up and must live with the consequences..." all paraphrased.
We have lots of noise, but no fundamental questions of "What did Guiliana know that made her a target of a bungled rub-out, AND, was the target actually the capable Nicolo Calipari, who had had so much success in dealing with the Iraqis.
If anyone has ever been to the Il Manifesto newspaper site, you know it looks pretty mainstream, and they are justifiably proud of their star war retporter, and reflect Italian outrage over the shootings, even Berlusconi is flabbergasted.
But, never under-estimate the goofiness of the con factor who are calling Guiliana a "commie bitch," sdimply because the name of her employer is Il Manifesto!
As Hercule Poirot might say, "We have too many questions and far too many clues here!" So, I find it odd that no one is asking questions.
Since the end of the war Italy is a playing ground for the American army. In 1980 an Italian civilian plane was shot down by an American fighter plane and all the passengers died; a few years ago in Cermis 20 people were killed by another USA fighter plane. Last Friday they tried to assassinate Giuliana Sgrena and her escort but they managed to kill only Nicola Calipari. Then we ask ourselves why Italians are anti-American??
Since the end of the war Italy is a playing ground for the American army. In 1980 an Italian civilian plane was shot down by an American fighter plane and all the passengers died; a few years ago in Cermis 20 people were killed by another USA fighter plane. Last Friday they tried to assassinate Giuliana Sgrena and her escort but they managed to kill only Nicola Calipari. Then we ask ourselves why Italians are anti-American??
Since the end of the war Italy is a playing ground for the American army. In 1980 an Italian civilian plane was shot down by an American fighter plane and all the passengers died; a few years ago in Cermis 20 people were killed by another USA fighter plane. Last Friday they tried to assassinate Giuliana Sgrena and her escort but they managed to kill only Nicola Calipari. Then we ask ourselves why Italians are anti-American??
Look ma, no hands!
And, what can be said about the final act of Nicola Calipari, who by accounts died while acting as a human shield for Giuliana Sgrena.
I know what can be said about him. He died taking a bullet that, if Sgrena and her associates are correct, was meant for her. If Bush had any compassion at all, he would have called Calipari's wife and expressed his profound sympathy for her loss.
Calipari is a hero and a truly selfless human being. He saved someone's life, and he did not kill anyone in order to do it.
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