I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
It's fashionable now for liberal-centrist columnists to wring their hands over how the Dems are intolerant on abortion.
E.J. just didn't want to get left out of the trend.
And he touches on, but misses the larger point. Republicans keep trying to make the abortion debate about "partial birth abortion" or parental consent laws, meanwhile their actual position is that a zygote is a person under the 14th Amendment. Kerry didn't even call out Bush on Roe in the debate. He should have turned the subject to birth control and the morning after pill, which Bush has prevented from being available over the counter even though all the scientific studies support doing it. The dem line should be, the Republicans are so far out of the mainstream on abortion, they block safe and legal birth control methods that would actually prevent abortions.
E.J. has decided that being a cum guzzling whore isn't nearly as bad as he imagined it might be.
Ah, that liberal media....
And how did you like today's column from human scumbag Nicholas Kristoff?
His latest "blame the liberal" column: environmentalism.
Sorry - can't quite get past the Biden thing, then I saw this:
Gambling Interests Funded DeLay Trip
By James V. Grimaldi and R. Jeffrey Smith, Washington Post Staff Writers
An Indian tribe and a gambling services company made donations to a Washington public policy group that covered most of the cost of a $70,000 trip to Britain by House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tex.), his wife, two aides and two lobbyists in mid-2000, two months before DeLay helped kill legislation opposed by the tribe and the company.
(snip)
They really are interchangeable, for the most part, aren't they.
I'm done ever discussing abortion issue. And since at level 2 I'll never see sunlight again, (which I don't think we'll need for what we will probably be doing!) I'm gonna go grab some now and let the usual men argue about something they never really have to deal with anyway.
I agree with Dionne's main point.
That republicans are all about winning, principles be damned- and how that makes it easy to club democrats over the head because often we ARE about principles.
watertiger, nothing I ever hear about delay ever shocks me.
He's the most corrupt man of our age.
Why is EJ Dionne a specky weasel twat? Why do liberal pundits roll over and take the shaft time and again? Man Coulter was right: Liberals do need to feel physically threatened...only she didn't finish the thought. "Liberals need to feel physically threatened before they stand up for themselves."
Why is EJ Dionne a specky weasel twat? Why do liberal pundits roll over and take the shaft time and again? Man Coulter was right: Liberals do need to feel physically threatened...only she didn't finish the thought. "Liberals need to feel physically threatened before they stand up for themselves."
Not to get too arty, but these guys are weathervanes: they point at where the wind is coming from, not where it's going to. There's always been something a little disappointing about Dionne, anyway. He's seemed to me like a kid who says the right thing because him mom is making him.
Perhaps the reason we're so 'clumsy' at dealing with the abortion 'issue' is that we recognize it as complex set of questions, whereas they cop out to a mass of protoplasm being equivalent to a living child.
The left in this country doesn't need the help of the E.J. Dionnes of the world to get outflanked by Republicans on abortion.
Most Americans support abortion rights but most Americans are also disturbed by abortion.
All the left can seem to do is stand up for "a woman's right to choose" with nary a regret for the loss of potential human life. To Americans who are disturbed by abortion this comes off as quite inhuman. Therefore, even though most Americans support abortion rights the Republicans come off as more moral in this regard.
You guys may not like it, but we need the votes of these people to win elections. Throwing tantrums isn't going to help. Reaching out is what we need to do. Of course if you prefer attacking Democrats such as Amy Sullivan for trying to finesse this issue that's your choice. I just hope you like seeing Republicans in charge.
Atrios -- Define "smart"
Hieronymus--my point exactly. The right has boiled it into something it is not: a clear-cut, simple statement. It's anything but.
I think EJ is bipolar. One day he makes sense, next day he's off the deep end.
Sorry to bang on about this issue but it seems to be important.
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/c...0/7491/550?
ehom
Another medical journal joins the fray over Iraqi casualties. May I suggest a FOIA on US military unit diaries? The troops have to account for ammo expenditure, and various other parts of their job. If these docs were studied we might piece together an authoritative study. The Army is very interested in how many it kills just to understand how effective the troops are. Call it the "Un-official History of Desert Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom."
All the left can seem to do is stand up for "a woman's right to choose" with nary a regret for the loss of potential human life.
I love being reduced to a stereotype, especially one pimped by Republicans.
Perhaps we should consider the phrase, 'pro-lifetime.' What I would ask of someone who opposes abortion rights is, what do you have in mind for contraceptive programs? Sex education? Adequate health care and schooling? Affordable housing? Family-friendly workplaces?
On the right, I have never seen nor heard a satisfactory response.
I didn't realize that Phil Specter had so much political gravitas.
The reason they're so good at it and the dems are so bad at it is because the Democrats are too understanding and compassionate. They don't know how to go for the throat and say "No, you're wrong! Just wrong! No middle ground here, you're wrong!".
The republicans do.
~A!
http://watchingthewatchers.org
What I would ask of someone who opposes abortion rights is, what do you have in mind for contraceptive programs? Sex education? Adequate health care and schooling? Affordable housing? Family-friendly workplaces?
sally, read Joe Conason in Salon- he spells out what republicans actually think about those things, but don't say out loud.
The gospel of the rich and powerful.
I ask any rethug who tells me they're horrified by abortion to explain to me why they don't have the same compassion for the living.
They never have a good answer.
Atrio: using 'pro-life' falls into a winger trap. 'Pro-life' implies pro-choice is 'anti-life'. Even when used by the left, 'pro-life' should probably always be translated into 'anti-choice'.
Political Suicide for RePubs:
* Screwing with SS
* The Overturning of Roe
They can pick their poison. Either one will kill them....
WTF:
I prefer Pro-birth. It is accurate, and to the point. They are pro-birth, and pretty much don't give a shit beyond that.
All the left can seem to do is stand up for "a woman's right to choose" with nary a regret for the loss of potential human life.
Uh, I guess you missed the debates last fall.
I love this thing where there is an imaginary "Left" that gets accused of forming positions for the Democratic Party that nobody who runs for anything in the party actually holds.
snip/ let the usual men argue about something they never really have to deal with anyway.
============================
Got that right sister.
It has nothing to do with compassion, morality or religion. It has everything to do with controlling one half the population. I even heard some wingnut say on CSPAN that the country started to go down hill when women got the right to vote.
I've done the same thing, 4LG. They're usually people I work with, so I express sympathy: " I know it's easier to focus on the fetus when ther're so damn many hungry, abused, suffering, and in terrible need..". Shuts them right the fuck up.
Dionne's also weak on S.S., as the Daily Howler points out here:
http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh031.../
dh031105.shtml
"....with nary a regret for the loss of potential human life.
Bingo! A fetus is "potential human life" NOT human life. That happens after birth...
Why will no one cry for the millions of potential human lives currently streaming down my leg?
Atrio: using 'pro-life' falls into a winger trap. 'Pro-life' implies pro-choice is 'anti-life'. Even when used by the left, 'pro-life' should probably always be translated into 'anti-choice'.
WTF
True.
Let's not help them out by using their catchphrases.
Four Legs--thanks for the read.
If i recall my ancient Greek, what little I studied, the word for 'sin'
and 'debt' are the same. I believe this is why poverty is such a recurrent theme in the New Testament.
We seriously need agnostics in power.
The Rethugs will loot the country down to its last half penny.
They always have.
But what makes me want to put the second amendment into practical application is the self-righteous scolding with which they demand that we scrape and bow to their raping of our national ideals.
SallyH - We seriously need agnostics in power.
You're seriously correct.
You guys may not like it, but we--
Oh, yeah, "we."
[bill cosby]Ri-i-i-i-i-i-i-ight...[/bill cosby]
Let's not help them out by using their catchphrases.
And catchwords like calling a fetus a "child" or "baby"....
QL in NY,
I like your point as well. Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread. To me, the debate is not mine: but I will support a woman's right to choose indefinitely.
Actually, the Repugnants want to control everyone. They do not even care what you think. To them it is more important to simply exercise their perceived powers. They are all a bunch of assholes. (Word stuck in my mind this day, sorry.)
Ladies and gentlemen, you're in the middle of another Ignore the Moronic Brownshirt Fucks Million-Dollar Weekend!
Brought to you by your local 7-Up bottler and distributer. Turn "Un" with 7-Up!
And now, back to Russ "Weird Beard" Knight!
It's strange to me how the neo-Nazis pretend to have more concern for something that might possibly one day become a human life, than they have for actual people.
They seem to just want the woman to give birth. Period. But if you ask them to provide pre-natal care, or day dare, or medical care, or anything to mother or child during the pregnancy or after the pregnancy ends, they try to paint you up as some sort of socialist dictator trying to steal their money.
Seraphiel--now they want to subsidize ConAgra instead of food stamps. You score.
I think a large part of the discussion re abortion is to remove women from the public sphere. With women in the workforce, the unemployment stats look terrible. (Dont' buy the ones from the WH--they're not even fake Louis Vuittons). There's been a concern among the more racist elements of the right that not enough Caucasian babies are being born. What the wingies want is a world where white, Protestant, wealthy Anglo-Saxon men reign supreme. Goddess knows that's not possible when you have women and minorities clamoring to be part of the dialogue.
"Uh, I guess you missed the debates last fall."
Yes, you are right Thersites. I did overstate the case a bit. I will say that John Kerry's approach struck me as being a relief from the usual jazz. What I should have said was that the overiding message is about a woman's right which is important to you but isn't going to get back any of those voters we've lost over the last 20 years. Remember? We used to be the majority party.
"let the usual men argue about something they never really have to deal with anyway."
This is exactly the sort of thing I'm complaining about. Believe me, sister, I've heard this crap a lot more often than John Kerry's approach. Thank you so much for helping me prove my point. That's exactly how people who are ambivelent about abortion are treated. You want to know why our side keeps losing votes? Look no further.
You people must really enjoy Republican victories.
Hieronymus--I believe the abortion debate is metaphor for larger issues. The debate is not about children being born or not born. It's about power relationships and who controls whom.
Some on the right are beginning to call fetuses the newly conceived. I've seen this term sneaking up in letters to the editor: the latest entry in the Newspeak Lexicon.
>>>""That republicans are all about winning, principles be damned- and how that makes it easy to club democrats over the head because often we ARE about principles."
LOL!!!
Yeah. STUPID principles, and that's why you lose. Losers.
Keep sticking to your principles. PLEASE.
.
this comment was posted at the washington note in response to a question -- what motivates bu$h to flip off the world -- and i thought it was a good summation of the prick:
To understand Dubya and his chronic habit of giving the finger to everyone about everything, one has to remember:
a. He was never the favored son
b. He always resented everyone and everything in
his family
c. His father's WW2 career was held up as heroic,
and he believed this until the day some weathered leathery person from the real world, someone he actually respected and trusted, let him in on the some of the family secrets, including 41's bailing out of a plane that still carried his trapped and wounded gunner. (This ended Dad's flying career.
No one would go up with him anymore. So they sent him home to play the hero and sell war bonds.) Then there was the business about the family fortune being dramatically improved by the 1939 - 1942 sales to the Nazis of tons of the fuel additives required for fighter plane fuel.
d. Dubya has never been held accountable for anything - except for when he showed himself as a dirty player on the Rugby team at Yale. People started giving him as good as he gave, (head tackles and ball pinches) and he didn't have the guts to clean up his act in order to keep playing.
e. The man is a physical coward. Horses sense this, and that is why you've never seen a photo of him on a horse. Pretty unusual for a Texas politician.
f. He's a dry drunk, an alcoholic who is pissed off that he cannot drink. This makes him perpetually angry and justifies his mean-spirited actions to himself.
You people must really enjoy Republican victories.
I always go on red alert when addresses another group as "you people." Kind of reminds me of the time that Ross Perot addressed the NAACP and continually referred to the audience as "you people."
>>>"They seem to just want the woman to give birth. Period."
Well, you do your part and we'll do our part, and the end result will be a well-fed, living baby.
But somehow I doubt that's what you had in mind.
.
I always go on red alert when addresses another group as "you people."
Throw in warnings on what "our side" MUST do to "win back voters", and whaddaya got? Another Ignore the Moronic Brownshirt Fucks Million-Dollar Weekend!
MSNBC is showing a Headliners and Legends piece featuring Pickles Bush.
"Republican women have been supporting this country for a long time" said the beloved Texas vehicular homicider.
"My only regret is that my husband might receive criticism" pouts Ms. Stepford after the Thing announces his 2000 candidacy for President.
What a horrible, prolonged nightmare we are enduring.
Dave--who's sponsoring this segment?
Carlos--define 'your part.'
"I love being reduced to a stereotype, especially one pimped by Republicans."
Well, Res, from where I sit, you're fulfilling the stereotype just fine all by yourself.
Might I suggest that we look upon politics as the art of getting people who don't see things your way as realizing that they, nevertheless, have common ground and that's exactly the part that so many self-righteous pinheads on our side don't get (yes OUR side, for I am a liberal Democrat who supports a woman's right to an abortion)? I'll say it again: We're not going to start winning on a reliable basis until we as a group start learing how to reach out to people who aren't immediately entranced by the standard-issue feminist line.
Dave - I think it's hopeless. People want to argue.
"reminds me of the time that Ross Perot addressed the NAACP and continually referred to the audience as 'you people.'"
Do you honestly think this is a valid or relevant point?
Actually, the Repugnants want to control everyone.
Except gun owners. And corporations. And (heterosexual) rich people.
Can I ask some of my critics a question? My idea is similar to Amy Sullivan's: Acknowledge that abortion is disturbing to a great many people so they know you're morally OK and then point out that under Democrats abortion is actually lower. So, if you're pro-life, you really ought to vote Democratic.
Having said that, what's your plan for winning back the middle, hm?
Well, Hieronymus, how about addressing Sally's points? Would those not appeal to people who purport to care about the "right to life" of an unborn child? Or do they only care as long as it's in the womb of a woman who dared to have sex? Do they care if anything was done before she got pregnant to educate her (and her partner), to make reliable, affordable contraception available to her (and her partner)? What will be done once that child is born? Will the parents have a decent job with fair and equal opportunity? Will that family have affordable housing, food, clothing, health care and transportation? What about the education of the child? And etc.
It's a lot more complex than just saying, to paraphrase a long-ago Atrios post, "If we say abortion is icky, will you like us?"
My idea is similar to Amy Sullivan's...
That should pretty much scotch it, doncha think?
Hey Humoungous Brainfart
See if your dick will reach your asshole, and if it does...Go fuck yourself
Fer cryin' out loud, we're not "you people", we're "representatives of the Prince of Flies".
Get it straight you people!
Oops.
.
"Abortion is disturbing to a great many people."
there, I've acknowledged it, can we move on to something more productive now?
No, because that's not what you want, you want people not just to acknowledge that, but to agree with them.
Our '08 slogan - vote for Democrats, because we think abortion is icky!
I just thought of something: How many of you out there understand that while, yes, Republicans are cynically exploiting the abortion issue, the voters they are successfully reaching out to are genuinely and sincerely disturbed by abortion?
Abortions will continue whether or not laws are inacted to outlaw them. At that point, only the wealthy, be they Democrats, Republicans, Independents, whatever, will be able to obtain safe abortions. They will be able to fly to another country, whereas most women won't.
Hieronymus:
Do not presume to speak for me (or "the left") when you discuss "our side's" views about abortion. A wise step one in any dialogue is dropping one's assumptions about a group you feel comfortable addressing as "you people."
NARAl tried reaching out to the other side, after being told by the media that they needed to find common ground. Well, the other side ignored them as did the media.
Hieronymus is correct on one thing. Abortion rates DO go down under the Democrats. There's been a sharp jump both in actual numbers and rates of abortions performed since Chimpy McFlightsuit took the stick.
Hieronymus you're doing the same thing you're complaining about. By using "you people" you're assuming we all think alike.
One doesn't have to be disturbed by abortion to be 'morally OK.'
Forget it guys - HB=Ted Smith. If not in fact than in the same circular arguments with a few snide comments thrown in for luck. Frankly, Atrios has never told me what to post. And it is his fucking blog. My husband of 35 years has never told me what to say and not say (except for one time when I called an Italian driver a prick and he and four of his buddies fell out of the Cinquecento and started heading our way). Why would I listen to a troll.
Scroll on by.
And when Shrub was actually stumbling over *reading* a carefully prepared text in front of a meticulously orchestrated media gaggle when he announced his 2000 candidacy.
It *is* about competency and integrity, Amurica, and it appears that you will need to be lying in the ditch being urinated on the face by the Rethug oligarchy before the light finally glows and the inside joke of Shrub's implausible Presidency is no longer amusing.
The discussion of abortion is best left between a woman and her doctor.
"Abortions will continue whether or not laws are inacted to outlaw them. At that point, only the wealthy, be they Democrats, Republicans, Independents, whatever, will be able to obtain safe abortions. They will be able to fly to another country, whereas most women won't."
mer
This is exactly right. For repubs abortion is no different from health care, education, legal services and every other issue. For them it's not about it being moral or right or wrong, it's about who deserves access. And repubs believe that your economic status is what determines whether or not you should be allowed acess to any of these.
Besides, forcing women who live in poverty to have kids and then being sure not to provide any help in terms of child care etc. is a great way to control those women. Which is, of course, the other thing that matters most to repubs. They want control over peoples lives, especially poor women's lives.
OT - LJ - Best Friday sex toy blogging ever. Congrats.
I don't give a damned what the wingnuts think. Abortions will remain regardless of whether it's legal or not. Therefore, I will always support legal abortion. The screaminn' wingers act like legalized abortion forces women to get them against their will. Dumbasses.
QL ... You are right. I allowed myself to be sucked in. Apologies all (especially Dave).
Abortions will continue whether or not laws are inacted to outlaw them. At that point, only the wealthy, be they Democrats, Republicans, Independents, whatever, will be able to obtain safe abortions. They will be able to fly to another country, whereas most women won't.
It will be worse than that. My mother was a nurse back in the pre-Roe days. The rich had (and will have) safe abortions right here in America. Doctors performed them, in hospitals (and will again). There were (and would be) plenty of ways to find a medical "justifcation" to get around the law. It happened all the time. And people paid big money for it back then. What, you were going to tell a doctor that Mrs. Moneybucks wasn't having a miscarriage requiring a D&C? You have an MD after your name?
Ladies and gentlement, you're in the middle of another Ignore the Moronic Brownshirt Fucks Million-Dollar Weekend!
Remember kids - everytime you ignore a moronic brownshirt fuck, their paycheck gets a little lighter and that old job of their's dropping fries at Jack-in-the-Box looks a little better. Think a moronic brownshirt fuck is interested in "debate?" Think a moronic brownshirt fuck is "upset" over "the uncivil tone"? Think a moronic brownshirt fuck is "concerned" with "our side?" You might as well think Colonel Sanders is gonna join PETA to ensure better treatment of the chickens. It's all about controlling the debate and smothering anything that gets too close to the truth.
'Cause whenever you hear a moronic brownshirt fuck squeal like a stuck pig, you know you've hit the mark! Remember it!!!
And now, after this word from our sponsor, we return you to Cousin Brucie!
Pothead--the current rulers have a weird definition related to primitive Calvinism in which the rich are the morally superior, the 'elect.' They equate privilege with moral superiority. A specious argument if there ever was one.
I just thought of something: How many of you out there understand that while, yes, Republicans are cynically exploiting the abortion issue, the voters they are successfully reaching out to are genuinely and sincerely disturbed by abortion?
Nearly every person who works in a clinic or office that provides abortion has at least one story about the anti-abortion protestor who shows up one day with his, always his, own daughter for an abortion, then goes back and joins the picket line.
Sure, they're "disturbed" by abortion, but it doesn't prevent them from having them. Just as they're "disturbed" by porn, but buy it in higher quantities than do liberals.
The point is this: abortion, like much of life, is not a black-and-white issue, and shouldn't be reduced to a good-bad dichotomy void of any context, as some earlier posters have said quite nicely.
You seem to be saying that abortion is "disturbing," and never mind the people involved. That, indeed, is the ideological view of the right: their economic models, their positions on foreign policy, etc., etc., work perfectly well-- so long as you ignore actual people living actual lives.
QL:
Thanks. Gosh, I wonder if I'll have to retire the feature now... 
"'Abortion is disturbing to a great many people.'
there, I've acknowledged it, can we move on to something more productive now?"
Who are you to decide this ins't productive? Might I suggest that the real problem here is not that my argument is invalid so much as that it annoys you?
"No, because that's not what you want, you want people not just to acknowledge that, but to agree with them."
Bullshit. I meant exactly what I said. Incidentally, having my real motives baselessly questioned when discussing abortion is not new experience for me. In fact, its all too typical for our side.
"Our '08 slogan - vote for Democrats, because we think abortion is icky!"
Another distortion of my point.
Why is it so hard for so many of you people to understand that voters like feeling understood and that as long as you treat them in such an arrogant fashion that you'll only drive them further into the arms of Repbulicans?
You do realize that the more you attack me this way the more you prove my point about how incompetently our side is handling the issue, right?
Anybody else want to help me make my case for me?
Click on my homepage to check out my crew (if you want) hopefully it works.
there, I've acknowledged it, can we move on to something more productive now?
No, because that's not what you want, you want people not just to acknowledge that, but to agree with them.
Our '08 slogan - vote for Democrats, because we think abortion is icky!
Hieronymous has more of a point than many of you wish to acknowledge.
Even my wife, who can't stand W, thought he did well in the debates presenting himself as a "regular guy." She remembered vividly how he spoke of his wife, for example. Kerry came off as stiff, George as human.
Are these things right, or wrong? Politics in the world is much as it is in high school: a popularity contest, not just an ideological struggle. This is why Bush wins the White House, not DeLay or Cheney.
Four legs good --
I think you are right about everything
"We need to have agnostics in charge" -- well, I don't know if I believe that or not 
abortion -- here we go round the mulberry bush --from the Christian Century (those lousy agnostics):
Around the globe, the presence or absence of legal restrictions has relatively little to do with whether women decide to have an abortion. The countries with the lowest abortion rates in the world are Belgium and the Netherlands, where abortion is legal and covered by national health insurance. Those countries each year report seven abortions per 1,000 women of child-bearing age. By contrast, in countries such as Peru, Brazil, Chile and Colombia, where abortion is restricted by law, the abortion rate is about 50 per 1,000 women. Those figures are more than twice that of the U.S., where the rate is about 22. (For data, see the report for the Guttmacher Institute by Amy Deschner and Susan A. Cohen at http://www.guttmacher.org )
Some people have responded with thoughtful questions. You choose to ignore them. You're asking others to listen to you, but you won't listen to THEM. Try it.
Do I need to post the St. Francis thing again?
I agree with Sallyh, frankly. The whole abortion debate is nothing but red meat to keep the rabble squabbling, and none of it means dick until we stop and acknowledge that the very existence of the concept of an "unwanted child" is incredibly fucked up. We have something like 44 million kids living in conditions that, for whatever reason, they don't have health coverage or, for that matter, access to quality health care. Our schools are getting shittier and shittier, and we're more concerned with saving money than fixing the problems. The job situation is a sick joke, and people can just fuckin' forget about anything like job security.
With that considered, the whole arguement over whether or not abortion is "moral" or not is fuckin' laughable, man. As if this culture really gives a shit about morality beyond an ability to point a finger and look down a nose.
Why don't the hollywood types do what they do the best.
5-10 minute dvds with a reality base designed to alarm and educate the masses - all ages and colors.
If AOL could blanket the US many times over with their free disks, why can't the liberals adopt the same strategy?
Also...there could be websites with jib-jab like movies/cartoons.
They could even be narrated by Sponge Bob.
Hieronymus, do not attack the group as a whole. I've acknowledged the points you made that I felt were valid. We are all grappling for a solution to this issue, and how we should best frame it. I don't like losing anymore than you do. The fact that people are disagreeing indicates that it is indeed a troubling issue, connected to much larger ones, and that it's not one with a simple solution. This isn't an xy problem here.
Personally, I like the common ground approach of working together to reduce unwanted preganancies. Seems pretty pragmatic and unifying to me.
Perfection is the enemy of the good, as they say, so it'd be nice if we all stop trying to hold down an extreme position and thinking that working together is "accomodation".
I think abortion is a horrible thing, but no way do I want it taken off the table as an option, because there are much worse things than killing a fetus (eg, raising a child in a miserable household with a mother who has to scrape by to raise a child she didn't want or need).
BTW, can we start the war crimes tribunals now?
LJ - oh you mustn't do that. I am going to need the feature in Level 2 of hell where I am destined according to the Dante's Inferno Test. I will have good company though.
"Nearly every person who works in a clinic or office that provides abortion has at least one story about the anti-abortion protestor who shows up one day with his, always his, own daughter for an abortion, then goes back and joins the picket line."
Well, I used to work in a hosptial and some of my feminists friends have confided in me that they were throroughly grossed out. In any case, such a jerkweed as you have described is obviously a stone-cold Republican and not a swing voter. See we used to be the majority party in this country even when we were favoring abortion rights. The reason for that is that we've lost voters who used to be on our side. Don't you want to get them back?
"Sure, they're "disturbed" by abortion, but it doesn't prevent them from having them. Just as they're "disturbed" by porn, but buy it in higher quantities than do liberals."
But this is exactly my point. They don't see Democrats as understanding their feelings which is why even people who have had abortions often feel a closer kinship with Republicans.
This seem as good a time as any to go WAY OT:
Iran
Tells Bu$h to Fuck Off
Ted Smith makes a good point. The focus should be on what goes into making a good family life, and making the means available to do so. My argument with the rulers is that they are doing everything in their power to make certain that family life, for those who would desire it, is not an option.
Click on my homepage to check out my crew (if you want) hopefully it works
Hoyt! Those are great-looking pets!
Well I for one am personally enormously uncomfortable with abortion, having once more or less forced someone to get one that she didn't want.
And I conclude from my discomfort that I and every-fucking-body else ought to stay out of the decision and leave it to the woman, her doctor and -- I know I'm on shaky ground here but I do think that his thoughts deserve at least some consideration -- the sperm donor.
Maybe we should adopt the Chinese method of limiting families to one child.
Maybe we could allow two in the US
With pre-natal screening improving so quickly - it's only a matter of time before abortion is back in vogue.
My argument with the rulers is that they are doing everything in their power to make certain that family life, for those who would desire it, is not an option.
You got that right.
Maybe we should adopt the Chinese method of limiting families to one child.
Maybe we could allow two in the US
Oh, boy.
Hoyt! Those are great-looking pets!
Thank you
Backslider is right too
And what Dionne implied & didn't say (& therefore looks like a tool for not making explicit) is that the Democrats are honest & the Republicans are shameless manipulators who exploit the poor & defenseless & get them to vote enthusiastically against their own interests
As an orthodox Christian I have the satisfaction of knowing that these hypocrites will spend eternity treading burning pitch
We're not losing because of the
abortion issue. We're losing because
of stolen elections.
Don't forget it.
"What possesses smart people to write columns like that."
Its living and working inside the beltway all day every day. John Madden once said something to the effect that just playing one down in the NFL was enough to affect one's physical well being to the end of one's days. Just one day inside the beltway fucks up one's ability to logically think that efforts such as Dionne's are quite common, left or right.
Look folks, I keep hearing the same arguments over and over again. Resent stereotyping? Come up with some new arguments.
And, by the way, you may notice that I am trying to help DEFEAT Republicans, see, because we keep LOSING?
Atrios: Just because something has been tried and failed doesn't mean the principle isn't sound. In any case, as I keep saying, we used to be the majority party and keep getting our asses kicked and so I put it directly to you: How do we beat the Republicans on this isssue? What exactly is your plan? Instead of attacking people trying to help why don't YOU come up with something, eh?
Bush stopped at two.
Split the load and ended-up with twins.
Wonder what kind of birth control Laura uses.
From the backed-up look on Chimpos face, she just says no.
bigvic
Seems the chimps second term is floundering a bit, maybe more than a bit...
Can't we just get along?
Can't I get a long one?
Hiero:
We have answered those questions. You refuse to acknowledge the people who DO make them.
Your "concern" is anything but.
I know I'm on shaky ground here ...
Hey Zealot...I don't think you're on shaky ground. I'd consult the "sperm donor." But that's my choice (thank God) and I don't presume to speak for -- or dictate to -- any other people.
Hieronymus Braintree
Oh shut up, your giving me a headache.
Wonder what kind of birth control Laura uses.
She takes advantage of Bush's erectile dysfunction.
Hoyt C,
That's a fine family you have there.
Hello, Prior. Everything good with you today?
This should send chills down your spine:
"If we lose three seats," Schumer said, "many of the things we've cherished and valued over the last 50 years would go out the window."
If the dems lose 3 senators in 06 the rethugs will start building the ovens.
Your "concern" is anything but.
Bingo!
Doesn't take too long to figure that out, does it?
Four legs good --
I think you are right about everything
Why thanks!
As for braintree- why do I have to prove I'm "moral"? I think my arguments should stand on their own merits.
I think "you people" who make the argument that I have to jump through some sort of qualification hoop just to participate in the discussion are completely fucked up.
>>>"Carlos--define 'your part.'"
Ok. Let's pretend that Republicans only care about babies until they're BORN, and let's pretend Democrats only care about babies AFTER they're born.
If that's true, then both sides doing what they care about most will produce living well-fed babies.
But again, somehow I doubt that's what you had in mind. Saying Republicans want to starve babies is only you're excuse so you can keep killing babies so you can keep partying and fucking.
Can't I get a long one?
I thought you had one?
And I'd like a cold one.
At least Billy C could get it up.
Give Chimpo a couple Monicas,
This should send chills down your spine:
"If we lose three seats," Schumer said, "many of the things we've cherished and
valued over the last 50 years would go out the window."
If the dems lose 3 senators in 06 the rethugs will start building the ovens.
hadenough | Email | Homepage
I made essentially the same point
yesterday and Ted told me I was
being melodramatic.
We're not going to start winning on a reliable basis until we as a group start learing how to reach out to people who aren't immediately entranced by the standard-issue feminist line.
The problem is you don't have anything to back this up. It's just a theory.
And it's a weak one, unless you can identify where in say Kerry's platform or speeches he hewed to a "feminist line."
I know I'm on shaky ground here but I do think that his thoughts deserve at least some consideration -- the sperm donor.
============================
Not shaky ground at all. In a perfect world, of course, the dad should have a say. Not a deciding opinion, but in a warm,loving, committed relationship, the dad always has a say.
But you cannot legislate that. You cannot say a woman needs permission from the father to get an abortion. For all the obvious reasons. First one being, what if she doesn't know who the father is. Then you get into your abusive relationships. To say nothing of emotional control. And so on. Ultimately, since it is the woman who risks her very life in carrying a baby to term and giving birth, it has to be her decision.
Finally, let us not forget, that 9 times out of 10, it is the woman who cares for the child. Some men, and I know there are many exceptions, seem to have a much easier time walking away from parental responsibility than most women. Don't flame me. Maybe it is because of the bond that is built throughout gestation. But there is a reason there are so many single moms out there, and it is not because they all chose to go it alone.
Hoyt C,
Yep. China has told Bu$h to piss off and now, just days after ChimpCo changed its policy to appease Iran, THEY tell chimpy to piss off. I'd laugh myself sick except Bu$h's recklessness has left us vulnerable.
"...these hypocrites will spend eternity treading burning pitch."
--Prior Aelred
As long as their not in the City of Dis, that's okay by me.
Prior A sez:
abortion -- here we go round the mulberry bush
This is a subject I avoid. Even friends who agree can come to (figurative) blows about details.
.
We are going to keep losing as long
as unaccountable Republicans own
and operate the unaccountable voting
machines.
Nothing to do with abortion.
Meanwhile, let the lame duck season begin!:
WASHINGTON - Running into heavy resistance to his Social Security overhaul, President Bush has started emphasizing other parts of his domestic agenda and is promoting his foreign policy goals of defeating terrorism and spreading democracy.
"These are amazing times," he tells audiences. Yet no matter which way he turns, he is finding a bumpy road.
Just short of two months into his second term, Bush still wields vast political clout and, by his accounts, has plenty of "political capital" left to spend. Still, polls show his approval ratings stuck at around 50 percent.
Failure to generate more public support for his plan for individual investment accounts for Social Security seems to have thrown the rest of his agenda off stride.
Among recent setbacks:
* His initiative to control power plant emissions was rejected last week by a Republican-controlled Senate committee. His energy plan remains stalled after two unsuccessful attempts to get it through Congress in his first term.
* His proposal to extend tax cuts for five years ran into opposition from Senate GOP leaders who were supporting a budget that holds tax cuts at $70 billion, rather than the $100 billion Bush proposed.
* Bush's effort to allow religious groups receiving federal grants to consider a job applicant's religious beliefs has an uncertain future in the Senate after close passage in the House...
Bush has kept promoting his Social Security proposals. But the message and the itinerary were changed because of Republican jitters over Bush's desire for personal investment accounts — and the trillions in expected transition costs at a time of soaring budget deficits.
The president took his case to four Republican states last week. It was a strategy shift. He began his 60-day, 60-city offensive by stumping in states where Democratic lawmakers were seen as capable of being persuaded. But Democrats have displayed rare unity on Social Security issues...
"The whole approach that Bush normally works is to push the envelope, then embrace the opposition and claim victory. The trouble is, the only way for him to cut his losses on this may be to abandon private accounts," (Norman) Ornstein (of AEI) said.
That may be a bigger concession than the president is willing to make.
We are going to keep losing as long
as unaccountable Republicans own
and operate the unaccountable voting
machines.
Nothing to do with abortion.
Don't leave out the grotesquly dishonest, insipid, pro-GOP media.
Yep. China has told Bu$h to piss off and now, just days after ChimpCo changed its policy to appease Iran, THEY tell chimpy to piss off. I'd laugh myself sick except Bu$h's recklessness has left us vulnerable.
This on top of shooting the Italian journalist, do we have any friends left in the world? Pretty soon their going to kick us out of the U.N.
"Your 'concern' is anything but.
"Bingo!
"Doesn't take too long to figure that out, does it?"
I see your own mind-reading abilities are all the proof you need. It's so nice dealing with enlightened people.
where in say Kerry's platform or speeches he hewed to a "feminist line."
Come on, it was obvious: he supported a woman's right to vote.
Not shaky ground at all. In a perfect world, of course, the dad should have a say...
Absolutely spot on, QL. All of it.
entranced by the standard-issue feminist line.
=======================
Speaking as a feminist - what's wrong with that
Thersites:
Well, that too.
I made essentially the same point
yesterday and Ted told me I was
being melodramatic.
"Building the ovens" is not only melodramatic, it it deeply insulting to all the Jews who actually died in ovens.
I see your own mind-reading abilities are all the proof you need. It's so nice dealing with enlightened people.
What about yours? You have a whole theory about how voters respond to Democratic thetoric on abortion. Where's the polling data about this issue? Where's the references to actual campaign language and the responses it generated? Where is the research, man, the research!
dave,
Maybe this means the public at large will be the next to Tell Bu$h to Fuck Off Heh.
See we used to be the majority party in this country even when we were favoring abortion rights. The reason for that is that we've lost voters who used to be on our side. Don't you want to get them back?
So you can "favor abortion rights" and still be "the majority party in this country." Doesn't that actually work *against* the idea that pro-life and pro-choice positioning has much to do with which party is in the majority?
I can believe that there are would-be Democrats who are voting Republican because of pro-life views. But I'm not convinced that there are so many of them that abortion is so self-evidently the key to electoral victory. I'd like to see some numbers on that. I'd guess that there are many more would-be Democrats who are voting Republican because they think Democratic politicians are wavering weaklings.
I see your own m--
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zz...
Ted, I'm jewish and go fuck yourself.
Moron Bobo's World - Religious Division
(CNN) -- A gunman shot and killed four people at a church meeting in a hotel near Milwaukee, Wisconsin, on Saturday afternoon before shooting himself, Brookfield police Chief Daniel Tushaus said.
Seven or eight people were injured and taken to hospitals in serious condition. Information on their injuries was not immediately available. They ranged in age from their teens to their 60s, Tushaus told reporters.
He said he couldn't yet name the church.
Tushaus said police responded to a call from the Sheraton Hotel at 12:51 p.m. (1:51 p.m. ET).
"We quickly determined that a multiple shooting had occurred, and the suspect involved apparently died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound," the chief said. "There are no other suspects being sought at this time.
Just heard this on WGN Radio from Chicago. The church was of the full-gospel-fundamentalist type. (Church of the Living God, I believe)
Maybe this means the public at large will be the next to Tell Bu$h to Fuck Off.
Well, if he allowed any of them into his little Nuremberg Rallies, he'd hear it plenty.
Oh wait - I'm being uncivil. Please forgive me...
Hi bigvic--
I'm fine
The weather is also fine from time to time (Ah, Michigan!)
We clothed a novice yesterday -- now we have to get used to calling Rob Br Cuthbert
4LG -- you're welcome
1 N all
Ignore the trolls -- it is better for your blood pressure!
BTW -- my 82 year old mother loved "that nice Mr Ree-gun who made us feel good" but she willl defend to the last ditch a woman's right to choose -- even if she is a minor (my Mom left high school to get married & had her first kid when she was 17 -- she says, "A woman has to be able to make that decision!")
I'm jewish and go fuck yourself.
He shoots - he scores!
We are going to keep losing as long
as unaccountable Republicans own
and operate the unaccountable voting
machines.
Nothing to do with abortion.
============================
A lot of what I have been reading lately tends to support this view. Hillary has been quietly working on a federal voting bill that requires a paper trail. I honestly believe Ohio and possibly Florida were stolen in 2004.
What I'd like to see now is a concerted effort by Ohio dems to make sure that Blackwell does not get the governship precisely because of his role in stealing the election for w. There has to be some accountability somewhere.
Frankly, I saw that one coming down the pike.
Nice shootin', Tex...
Ted, I'm jewish and go fuck yourself.
Ted's constant stream of ad hominems in the last thread disqualifies him as a responsible commenter and his attitude will surely lose us all future elections.
Prior, I thought you were in NYC? Are you in Michigan?
>>>"Ted, I'm jewish and go fuck yourself."
You're a Liberal Jew, and probably an atheist. Which means there's very little Jew in you at all.
.
The wingnuts are self-destructing.
Later moonbats.
BTW (and maybe OT) -
There's an annoying buzzing in this thread. Could somebody hand me the flit?
.
Ted, I'm jewish and go fuck yourself.
There goes the personal insults once again.
Really, is it that difficult just to debate the issues instead of getting personal? And saying you're Jewish (which you can neither prove nor disprove, for one) is what's called "appeal to authority", meaning your argument is valid because of who you are, not because of the ideas you're conveying.
Do you think that if the Republicans win in 2006 and gain a 60 seat Senate majority that the US will descend into something even remotely equivalent to what the Jews experienced at the hands of Hitler?
"Building the ovens" is not only melodramatic, it it deeply insulting to all the Jews who actually died in ovens.
Bzzz! Wrong answer, but thank you for playing. My family members who were liquidated by Stalin in the 30s and killed by the SS in the 40s would've appreciated somebody warning them about imminent doom. Now that we have the lessons of history, which teach us that ovens are built when nobody anticipates them, or fights the slow erosion of civil rights, we should be as fucking melodramatic as humanly possible to make sure nobody talks about us in the past tense in the same way.
"We are going to keep losing as long
as unaccountable Republicans own
and operate the unaccountable voting
machines.
Nothing to do with abortion.
Don't leave out the grotesquly dishonest, insipid, pro-GOP media."
Well, Sweetheart, I didn't exactly claim that abortion was our ONLY problem, but it is an important one.
But you know, what? If we could regain enough popular support it would make elections a lot harde to steal, right?
And about that GOP media. Part of what my idea is about is to enable our side to fuck with their heads so we can seize the agenda. See, if we acknowledge how people feel then we can challenge Republicans to do as good a job as Democrats have in preventing abortion and refer to what they're doing as "failed policies" as opposed to the Democrats' "successful policies."
See, the idea is TO WIN THE MIDDLE.
Steve S,
You hit the nail on the head. There was too much hanky panky going on with the touchscreen voting and GOP dirty tricks to have any confidence at all that the last election wasn't stolen too. Oh, yeah. Get over it, right? Never.
He shoots - he scores!
In what sport? Pointless profanity in place of idea exchange?
Congratulations on scoring.
BTW, for all you TCM viewers, it's All-Noir Saturday Night! "Lady From Shanghai" at 8 EST, followed by "The Big Sleep," "Double Indemnity," "Postman Always Rings Twice," and later tonight, "Out of the Past."
Pass the popcorn!
Oh Ted Smith, don't be silly! It will be a thousand times worse because America was once the greatest hope of man: now it is just a place where the liars boast about their transgressions with impugnity.
I'm back.. Sorry can't stay long.
Ted, how 'bout those URL's?
e.j. types up the required rove is brilliant line:
"Karl Rove must be grinning about all this. By managing the abortion issue with considerable cunning, Republicans are winning the power to stack the courts with the very sorts of conservative judges the pro-choice movement fears."
How's the SS thing working out for ya carl? As somebody already mentioned the abortion thing wasn't a big issue in the 04 election. It was about terra. Period.
Look at the rethugs hate fest in NYC. Some featured speakers were caly gov., ny gov. former nyc mayor and a few more, all baby killers. The "liberal media" played don't ask don't tell.
"In the third debate last fall, John Kerry noted that while he would "not allow somebody to come in and change Roe v. Wade, the president has never said whether or not he would do that.""
bush never said what he would do about roe, and the "liberal media" played don't ask don't tell.
Bzzz! Wrong answer, but thank you for playing. My family members
Appeal to authority again.
we should be as fucking melodramatic as humanly possible to make sure nobody talks about us in the past tense in the same way.
Chicken littles are not taken seriously and instead are usually used as foils to reinforce the power that you seem to think you're fighting.
Ladies and gentlemen, we return you now to our Ignore the Moronic Brownshirt Fucks Million-Dollar Weekend!
'Cause it's just the right thing to do!
Gotta run some errands. It's been real, people.
You're a Liberal Jew, and probably an atheist. Which means there's very little Jew in you at all.
Ah, an expert in the Nuremberg Race Laws, I see...
America was once the greatest hope of man
Oh, please.
But again, somehow I doubt that's what you had in mind. Saying Republicans want to starve babies is only you're excuse so you can keep killing babies so you can keep partying and fucking.
Carlos | Email | Homepage | 03.12.05 - 4:47 pm | #
It's all about punishment, ain't it?
And um, we're not losing over abortion. Does anyone really think Bush would have been more than a one termer without 9-11?
We're losing elections because many pro-choice voters don't believe the Republicans will pull the trigger on Roe v. Wade and don't trust Democrats on national security or taxes.
DWD --
click on the homepage
We're in Three Rivers, just south of Kalamazoo -- am hour north of Notre Dame (a professional football team with a parochial school attached -- it not being NW Michigan, the school is Roman Catholic rather than Christian Reformed)
Gotta go to church -- see you on the flip
what if...? - triangulation:
the dems proposed an amendment to do away with roe. (gasp!) to be replaced with an abortion law modeled on those of many european countries (we have the some of the most "liberal" abortion laws on the planet)In iceland the issue is between a woman and her doctor/midwife absolutely and utterly. That is until 20 weeks.
Then a woman can not get an abortion unless life/health of the mother is threatened or the fetus is severely malformed. My guess is this notion would piss off about 10% on the far right and on the far left. This leaves 80% of us with a law we can abide. I know, I know, slippery slope and all. Just some thoughts on a way to defuse the rightwing lock on this issue.
"Appeal to authority"
You're not actually trying to apply formal logic here are you Ted?
Bzzz! Wrong answer, but thank you for playing. My family members
Appeal to authority again.
Not at all. I didn't say "I am right because..." Learn to diagnose fallacies properly, Dr. Fuckwit.
Chicken littles are not taken seriously and instead are usually used as foils to reinforce the power that you seem to think you're fighting.
Gosh, you're right, we should never speak of what could happen should we let our nation waltz down the path of destruction.
NTodd:
Thank for your reply to Ted.
Here's your talking point:
"Abortions should be safe, legal, and rare. And in fact, under Democratic leadership we have seen greatly reduced rates of abortion...perhaps because Democrats support the very sensible approach of providing education and family-planning help, and other measures that reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies."
Now, can we move on, please?
My family members, sacrificed to the God of Oil, speak of genocide in the present tense.
But we are only Muslims...we are not real people.
Why can't you understand that we are suffering a holcost in the middle east, and just because we believe in a variation of the same god, we are somehow inferior.
Get your racist acts together.
You're not actually trying to apply formal logic here are you Ted?
Silly me - concerned with ideas and not with personalities.
Well, if he allowed any of them into his little Nuremberg Rallies, he'd hear it plenty.
Oh wait - I'm being uncivil. Please forgive me...
Dave,
Hahahahahaha. Bush got heckled in Louisville 4 times the other day. At least we're making progress.
Sorry, can't resist.
"And um, we're not losing over abortion. Does anyone really think Bush would have been more than a one termer without 9-11?
"We're losing elections because many pro-choice voters don't believe the Republicans will pull the trigger on Roe v. Wade and don't trust Democrats on national security or taxes."
Actually, you've got a point. We're losing on a whole plethora of "What's the Matter With Kansas"-type issues and not one issue is going to be the sole determining factor but abortion IS one of the biggies. We've got to learn how to succeed where Republicans have been taking voters who really ought to be ours.
Now, I'm outta here.
Ted:
Just what part of "the Bush
Administration is a criminal
cabal" don't you understand?
You're a Liberal Jew, and probably an atheist. Which means there's very little Jew in you at all.
Jeeze, read the protocols much?
And speaking of commemorating the death of millions in concentration camps..how can we forget the image of Dick Cheney dressed for duck hunting in Poland,
At least it was faux fur on his collar.
TW, for all you TCM viewers, it's All-Noir Saturday Night! "Lady From Shanghai" at 8 EST, followed by "The Big Sleep," "Double Indemnity," "Postman Always Rings Twice," and later tonight, "Out of the Past."
Film noir?! You want film noir?!!
MANSQUITO!!!
Not at all. I didn't say "I am right because..."
You apparently don't know what "appeal to authority" means.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/f...-
authority.html
It doesn't matter if the authority is yourself or someone else. In this case, you appealed to your relatives and felt you could speak for them, instead of simply dealing with the ideas as one person speaking to another.
osh, you're right, we should never speak of what could happen should we let our nation waltz down the path of destruction.
This is a strawman argument. Being a "chicken little" refers to repeatedly making panicky arguments about some sort of doomsday. It can also be called "crying wolf". We have fables about these things that teach us about the pitfalls about such behavior - ie, when something bad really does happen, you no longer will have legitimacy in the eyes of others because you say it all the time.
It's an issue of being temperate and mature about possibilities. Could the US turn into a fascist state? Of course. The question is the probability, as well as evaluating other potential outcomes.
If you're capable of doing that, then people will take you more seriously. Otherwise, you simply reinforce stereotypes about lefties being unthinking, pessimistic doomsayers.
It's pretty counterproductive if you're actually serious about getting the upper hand in the minds of your fellow Americans.
Film noir?! You want film noir?!!
MANSQUITO!!!
No, no, that's film *not*.
Or possibly film gnat...
You want film noir.
That's what my kids have to skim off the water supply everyday.
Enjoy your fucking popcorn
And Mansquito is on twice!!!!!b
Jennifer,
A-farking-men.
Thaankew.
Just what part of "the Bush
Administration is a criminal
cabal" don't you understand?
All of it and I agree with it.
Doesn't mean that we're living in conditions the same as Jews faced at the hands of Hitler.
It's fashionable now for liberal-centrist columnists to wring their hands over how the Dems are intolerant on abortion.
Sad, but true.
Shorter "moderate": Aren't pro-choicers just despicable how they force men and women who don't want abortions into having them?
During the week, I can't post much,
but I tend to lurk and keep up with the threads. Considering the amount of time Teddy spends here, I am pretty convinced he is a paid operative. He's petty effective at highjacking threads, but a lot of time he stays on topic. In a way, he is really serving a purpose, as he gives us all a chance to marshal our arguments into a coherent non-emotional rebuttal of whatever nonesense he is proposing. Plus we get to hear what others on our side are thinking adding to our knowledge base. So as trolls go, he aint so bad.
Plus, as mena quite correctly pointed out, some people just like to argue and he is good for that.
Rather than deep cuts to farm subsidies, Congressional Republicans are looking at alternatives, such as food stamps and land conservation. Link
Sorry, if this has already been mentioned.
EASY WIN: say the Democrats are going to ditch the Civil Rights Act and give away a million dollars to every voter earning more than $50,000 a year and create the "White People's Party" whereby only a select population gets all the rights and everyone else gets ripped off and you will win the Deep South! Hands down. Add into it, government jobs for everyone who is white and voila! Victory IF you get enough northern votes.
Geeze.
SIEG HEIL! Whoopee.
On the other hand, IF Americans want a sane country that really believes it is no ones' business what you do with yourself off hours at home, aside from not abusing or killing your family members, then....vote for the Democrats as we are now.
We are against pollution and for taxing the corporate entities. We are for keeping the neighbor's noses out of our sex lives. Sheesh.
Period.
Anyone wants to have a squalling baby, be my guest. Want to make ME have one, fuck yourself and leave me alone.
Dems are losing elections because although the public agrees with most of their positions the Goopers have the mass media in their pocket (see MediaMatters on any day if you have any doubt), the Goopers are totally unscrupulous and will tell any lie, smear even war heroes and outright steal elections given the opportunity.
All this stuff about abortion, etc. is silly.
Considering the amount of time Teddy spends here, I am pretty convinced he is a paid operative.
Oh, you're so right. How can I be effective with such great detectives on the case to sniff me out?
Damn you, Columbo!
No, Ted, it means that as Shumer
pointed out, we're a few
bcongressional
seats away from the Republicans
achieving their long desired
goal -- of returning this country
to the economic and political norms
of the US circa 1900.
Enjoy the Gilded Age, pal.
The repubs won't cut anything meaningful that goes to their mighty base, the red states, aka, the FUCKING FREELOADER STATES.
So they will cut any programs going to cities which, even in the deep south, nearly all went Democratic.
This is cause for civil war.
dave sez:
BTW, for all you TCM viewers, it's All-Noir Saturday Night! "Lady From Shanghai"
Say, anybody have a mirror?
Years ago I made a list of the movies I wanted on DVD. It's been slow going so far but I just found out Welles' last film, F for Fake, ( a documentary that may be fake about fakery or not) is coming out soon. Yippee!
.
In a way, he is really serving a purpose, as he gives us all a chance to marshal our arguments into a coherent non-emotional rebuttal of whatever nonesense he is proposing.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
That's the most ridiculous comment of the week! Kudos.
I see your own mind-reading abilities are all the proof you need. It's so nice dealing with enlightened people.
I pointed out TWICE that you have refused to engage anyone who raised suggestions for other approaches the Democrats could take to win back voters on this issue. You refused to acknowledge any of it.
But you responded when Atrios posted something. Like a laser-beam. Then you whined that he wasn't doing anything to lead. What, do you need to be lead?
Do you know how a telephone works? Email? Know the address of your legislators? Are you active in any organization like NARAL that does try to reach out and explain the issue in favorable terms? Because I don't need Atrios to tell me to DO something to address these things. I can do it myself.
You apparently don't know what "appeal to authority" means.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/f...- authority.html
It doesn't matter if the authority is yourself or someone else. In this case, you appealed to your relatives and felt you could speak for them, instead of simply dealing with the ideas as one person speaking to another.
Dude, I DO know what an appeal to authority is. It means claiming I am right because of an assumed cloak of authority. Read what I wrote: I did not claim to be right because I have dead Jewish relatives. My claim to understand what they might think is not an appeal to authority, but rather an appeal to human empathy and a sensitivity to history honed through an understanding of my family's trials and other things.
Now THIS is an appeal to authority: I was a fucking philosophy major who graduated cum laude with distinction in the department, and thus I am correct in what I say about logical fallacies.
See the difference?
>>>"Dems are losing elections because although the public agrees with most of their positions the Goopers have the mass media in their pocket (see MediaMatters on any day if you have any doubt), the Goopers are totally unscrupulous and will tell any lie, smear even war heroes and outright steal elections given the opportunity."
Shorter Rudy:
LIARS! YOU'RE ALL LIARS! BUAHAHAHA!
No, Ted, it means that as Shumer
pointed out, we're a few
bcongressional
seats away from the Republicans
achieving their long desired
goal -- of returning this country
to the economic and political norms
of the US circa 1900.
Well, you seem to be backing off your original argument now, since the Gilded Age is a pretty far cry from killing 6 million people in attempted genocide.
The Japanese just wondered out loud about the wisdom and utility of buying any more American government debt! This caused instant hysteria here in America, stocks fell 100 pts nearly instantly as all the rich ran for the exit.
Then the Bush team snarled at Japan and then pleaded and the Japanese repudiated this.
Only.....THEY CAN'T!!!
Because, no one wants our debts. China is cutting us off even as our trade deficit roars ever worse.
So they cut the budget but the big ticket items: corporate/red state subsidies and the military, won't be cut even a penny, nay, increased hugely.
So they will strangle our mighty cities. Cold bloodedly. Which is what the Chinese want them to do. Kill the cities which will then have uprisings. Har. Gads. What a mess.
>>>"In a way, he is really serving a purpose, as he gives us all a chance to marshal our arguments into a coherent non-emotional rebuttal of whatever nonesense he is proposing."
LOL! Or else it would remain the incoherent emotional rubbish it usually is on any given day.
osh, you're right, we should never speak of what could happen should we let our nation waltz down the path of destruction.
This is a strawman argument. Being a "chicken little" refers to repeatedly making panicky arguments about some sort of doomsday
Um, no. The proper classification of such a logical fallacy is the slippery slope.
Ack! Damn Google for finding subscription sites. Maybe Napanews?
Bush has already killed over 100,000
innocent people. What do you think
his body count will be once he
controls all three branches of
government
America was once the greatest hope of man
Oh, please.
Ted Smith | Email | Homepage | 03.12.05 - 5:04 pm | #
Ted silly troll. The phrase is right from Abe Lincoln.
Fellow-citizens, we cannot escape history. We of this Congress and this administration, will be remembered in spite of ourselves. No personal significance, or insignificance, can spare one or another of us. The fiery trial through which we pass, will light us down, in honor or dishonor, to the latest generation. We say we are for the Union. The world will not forget that we say this. We know how to save the Union. The world knows we do know how to save it. We --- even we here --- hold the power, and bear the responsibility. In giving freedom to the slave, we assure freedom to the free --- honorable alike in what we give, and what we preserve. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose, the last best, hope of earth. Other means may succeed; this could not fail. The way is plain, peaceful, generous, just --- a way which, if followed, the world will forever applaud, and God must forever bless.
The Guilded Age: DEATH TO ALL INDIANS. We herded the remaining tribes, using tremendous violence, indeed, MASSACRES, and stole everything they used to occupy.
Doesn't mean that we're living in conditions the same as Jews faced at the hands of Hitler.
Doesn't mean we aren't. What year are we talking about? 1933? 36? 39? 42? 44? How do you think we got to the point where ovens were cooking people?
Here's what the H-man himself said in Mein Kampf (Chapter XV - The Right of Emergency Defense):
A shrewd victor will, if possible, always present his demands to the vanquished in installments. And then, with a nation that has lost its character-and this is the case of every one which voluntarily submits-he can be sure that it will not regard one more of these individual oppressions as an adequate reason for taking up arms again. 'The more extortions are willingly accepted in this way, the more unjustified it strikes people finally to take up the defensive against a new, apparently isolated, though constantly recurring, oppression, especially when, all in all, so much more and greater misfortune has already been borne in patient silence.
If you read Hannah Arendt's Origins of Totalitarianism, you will learn that German Jews tried to go along with the flow, which was an ancient survival strategy that couldn't work against the Nazis. The only reason that calling a spade a spade today is considered by you and your ilk to be Chicken Little-esque is because many people still buy into the farcical notion of American exceptionalism. "It can't happen here!" Bullshit. It can and will happen if we do not resist at every turn the Darkness.
My claim to understand what they might think is not an appeal to authority, but rather an appeal to human empathy and a sensitivity to history honed through an understanding of my family's trials and other things.
That's still an appeal to authority - you think that you are more qualified to empathize with some dead Jews who are your relatives and feel because of your "empathy" your opinion on the matter is more worthy of mine, without addressing the basic question of whether Republicans winning in 2006 to gain a 60 seat Senate majority in the United States is even in the ballpark of 6 million Jews being put to death by Hitler.
Now THIS is an appeal to authority: I was a fucking philosophy major who graduated cum laude with distinction in the department, and thus I am correct in what I say about logical fallacies.
Yep, not only is that a logical fallacy, it lacks any authority since you could have gone to Bofo State, and even then, it doesn't have any reference to the quality of your instruction, your relationship with the people who taught you, and the grading standards of your institution. Plus, you can't even objectively verify your claim, so it has no merit in this environment.
And Hubert Humphrey also reworked it for his speach in 1948.
For all of us here, for the millions who have sent us, for the whole two-billion members of the human family -- our land is now, more than ever before, the last best hope on earth. I know that we can -- I know that we shall -- begin here the fuller and richer realization of that hope -- that promise of a land where all men are truly free and equal, and each man uses his freedom and equality wisely and well.
Hitler based his "Lebensraum" junk on the Guilded Age in the USA as we conquered "inferior races" and enslaved them in concentration camps. Indeed, he himself said, concentration camps were the ideal way of dealing with inferior people.
LOL! Or else it would remain the incoherent emotional rubbish it usually is on any given day.
Troll.
NTodd:
You are the man.
Seriously.
I seem to have hit nerve.
Back to scrolling by.
Jeesh Prior, I didn't know you were a real monk. However, it proves the point that most thinking people (and who thinks more than monks) are liberals.
Ted silly troll. The phrase is right from Abe Lincoln.
Wow - this is the appeal to authority fallacy thread.
Buzz off, SWRtroll.
What the Dems need to win elections is a decent shake from the media, which means they must not demonize Dems based on the false charges of the Goopers and the media must also report that the Goopers are lying and committing other acts of cheating.
IN last year's election debate, Bushboy wore a goddamn cueing mechanism on his back to prompt him about answers to give to certain questions. It was the "bulge" on Bushboy's back. The NYTimes and others found out about it but never reported the story!!!
Then there was the way they played the CBS document drama. It was as if, Bushboy, the cowardly deserter of the National Guard during a time of war, was unfairly being represented!!!
If the truth was told straightforwardly, only the Gooper morons would have voted for Bushboy and he'd be back in Texas playing at being a cowboy.
osh, you're right, we should never speak of what could happen should we let our nation waltz down the path of destruction.
This is a strawman argument. Being a "chicken little" refers to repeatedly making panicky arguments about some sort of doomsday
Um, no. The proper classification of such a logical fallacy is the slippery slope.
Correct, LJ. It would be nice if the troll could at least pick the right fallacy to throw around.
And of course, carrying actions through to ultimate conclusions is not always a slippery slope. Domino Theory? Slippery slope.
Incremental dismantling of social structures and civil rights leading to atrocities if not resisted? I don't think that qualifies as a slippery slope as we have historical examples of that very thing happening.
That's still an appeal to authority - you think that you are more qualified to empathize with some dead Jews who are your relatives and feel because of your "empathy" your opinion on the matter is more worthy of mine, without addressing the basic question of whether Republicans winning in 2006 to gain a 60 seat Senate majority in the United States is even in the ballpark of 6 million Jews being put to death by Hitler.
That's not what he's saying.
He's saying that it might be wise to at least consider how it relates to Hitler's winning the election in (1932 I think).
Wow - this is the appeal to authority fallacy thread.
Buzz off, SWRtroll.
Ted Smith | Email | Homepage | 03.12.05 - 5:30 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
You weren't even making an argument silly troll. You were mocking the phrase.
But anybody who took 8th grade history knows Lincoln coined it.
Silly troll.
All the left can seem to do is stand up for "a woman's right to choose" with nary a regret for the loss of potential human life.
"All the right can seem to do is stand up for "a president's right to invade a country and plunge it into bloody war" with nary a regret for the loss of living human beings."
Well, I'm really overdue for a nice walk on this sunny day.
Have fun working yourselves into a frenzy about how the world is coming to an end. Maybe I'll check in later.
Bye.
And don't forget Arendt's Banality of Evil.
Indeed, the whole right wing movement is to use straw horses like the issue of gays marrying or women refusing to be slaves to pregnancy, to cover up their real lusts and desires: to be lazy, stupid and stuffed to the gills.
You can see them easily, rumbling along in fat vehicles, fat themselves, sneering at people. True story: I was in a Republican neighborhood pulling a car out of the snow. Momentarily, my truck blocked a driveway.
The white man had American flags all over the place and those stupid magnets. Did he come out and assist the female shoveling the car out, crawling on the ground to hitch it to the truck?
NO.
He yelled about us being in his way and gave us the finger and put his fat ass in the car and drove off. Real manly, no?
Jerks. They are all jerks.
Have fun working yourselves into a frenzy about how the world is coming to an end. Maybe I'll check in later.
See you in five minutes.
Buzz buzz buzz...
[swats at ear]
.
I am a legend in my own mind.
Any good muslem reading the liberal fantsies on this blog would just go pick up a gun and join the jihad.
I guess being liberal in america means not having any substance.
bush is bold, rove is masterful, luntz is brilliant...
Uh-oh!
Analysis: Bush Shifting to Other Issues
WASHINGTON - Running into heavy resistance to his Social Security (news - web sites) overhaul, President Bush has started emphasizing other parts of his domestic agenda and is promoting his foreign policy goals of defeating terrorism and spreading democracy.
"These are amazing times," he tells audiences. Yet no matter which way he turns, he is finding a bumpy road.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/
news...ositioning_bush
And don't forget Arendt's Banality of Evil.
Hey! I'm a party sorta guy! Not banal at all.
.
One sees this all the time. The very people who sob about Jesus loving them are usually jerks who hate humans and kick orphans out of their path.
They were perfectly happy with a zillion orphans warehoused in ophanages and they don't mind seeing this happen again. This way, when they sit at home, stuffing their faces, they can think, "wow, I am better off than all those orphans begging for pennies!"
For truly, this is a great pleasure, kicking a pesky orphan in the gutter when he tries to pick the pocket. Maybe bring back the death penalty for stealing, hanging for ten year olds like during the Guilded Era. Child labor!
How many times will Ted sign off this time. It reminds me of the Pirates of Penzance when the police keep singing they're off to fight the pirates and the Major General finally says, after inumerable choruses, "Yes, but you don't go!"
Now THIS is an appeal to authority: I was a fucking philosophy major who graduated cum laude with distinction in the department, and thus I am correct in what I say about logical fallacies.
Don't waste your time with Ted.
It's a classic usenet troll's tactic. Just take a real impressive sounding term from the back of your logic textbook (eg "ad hominem") and repeat it as naseum whatever the context.
Boring old school trolling. Lame Ted Smith.
Rudy
Good post.
Two reasons Kerry is not president today, media and rigged voting.
Actually, you could just say rigged voting, check out usvotes.org sometime. warning it's pretty depressing.
Speaking of child labor.
There's an Easter sale in progress at Walmart.
That's still an appeal to authority - you think that you are more qualified to empathize with some dead Jews who are your relatives and feel because of your "empathy" your opinion on the matter is more worthy of mine, without addressing the basic question of whether Republicans winning in 2006 to gain a 60 seat Senate majority in the United States is even in the ballpark of 6 million Jews being put to death by Hitler.
Did I ever claim that I am more qualified based solely on my family's fate? I don't recall doing that. I used them as a personal, historical example, and illustrated that there is at least one person who disagrees with your assertion that talking about ovens is an insult to those who died.
But I will say that having family history does indeed impart a bit more understanding of the issue because it has caused me to study history all the more closely. The very fact that my family talks about what happened to those who didn't leave Kiev in 1913 (in the wake of tsarist pogroms) informs my worldview. The knowledge that my great-grandfather was so worried about surviving in America that he and the rest of the family converted to Christianity is something that hits home for me and *perhaps* gives me appreciation for the fear.
Yep, not only is that a logical fallacy, it lacks any authority since you could have gone to Bofo State...
First, I went to Colby College. If you want proof, I can scan in my degree.
Second, you are still incorrect. An appeal to authority doesn't require any actual authority. In fact, it requires the claimant to *not* be an authority.
Someone saying you should trust their figures for a moonshot because they are a NASA engineer is not committing a fallacy. They are not making a claim that the fact they are a NASA engineer means their numbers are logically correct--they are saying that, absent a really long discussion of math and proofs, you just might listen to them.
I was obliged to come back in. People get so depressed because I outshine the sun. You see, I do have my compassionate side.
Goopers are about substance?
I must have missed something.
What substance? Cancelling OSHA regs that would have reduced accidents and deaths in the workplace?
Going to war in Iraq on false pretenses? Which generated a lot of dead bodies, if you call that substance.
Cutting taxes by $1.35 trillion and now trying to make them permanent, in spite of record and menacing deficits?
Ignoring increased pollution levels from coal fired power plants and allowing them a longer time to phase in scrubbers? That "substance" is called mercury or particulate matter and they cause asthma, birth defects and many other problems.
Goopers talking about "substance" is like rapists talking about "making love" to their victims.
Hitler based his "Lebensraum" junk on the Guilded Age in the USA as we conquered "inferior races" and enslaved them in concentration camps.
Partly. But also partly on the Crusades. Read about the "Teutonic Knights" and how they brought the Crusades into Eastern Europe against the (then pagan) slavs.
Elaine, do you ever listen to Mike Malloy on AA?
Hey, Bush is going to stop talking about SS and talk about bin missing Laden?
Hahahahaha.
Next: Bush talks about the trade defict that Walmart has created!
Evening, Freethinkers.
What I don't understand is how Dionne or anyone could say that the Bush Repugs handle the subject skillfully? There's nothing subtle about the way they handle it. It's blunt and dogmatic and brooks no compromise.
What the hell is skillful about that?
Elaine, this one's for you, from me, Ba'al. Hope you enjoy.
"Embarrassing"
--by an Anonymous Female, age 22
I will fight this to the end...
I am a female who struggles with masturbation and it is the grace of God that I can even type these words. It is so painfully embarrassing.
I have never seen a story about females struggling with masturbation. I pray that every girl who lives with this pain will find some way to know they are not alone and Jesus will help them heal!
I want to claim God's healing power, mercy and forgiveness in my life. I may fail but He does not!
He truly never leaves, never forsakes and ALWAYS forgives.
He gives me power to overcome the tempter.
He gives me joy that no one can take away.
He is my Rock and my Salvation!
I will fight this to the end, knowing I will have victory in Christ Jesus!
I will never touch my private parts again in the restaurant or during the movies or even in school.
I will never think about glistening hot bodies thanks to Jesus my lord and savior.
Had I not been sputtering with
rage at the time, I would have told
Ted that he doesn't get to decide
what rhetoric is offensive to
victims of the Holocaust.
Sorry, it's not his call for
obvious reasons.
Goopers are about substance?
I must have missed something.
What substance? -
Why, santorum, of course.
Elaine, do you ever listen to Mike Malloy on AA?
Hoyt C. | Email | Homepage | 03.12.05 - 5:42 pm | #
I don't get it here. I get Radio Pacifica, though, through RPI.
Don't slam Walmart. Where else can you get 50% off on your shopping.
And we will be gearing-up for the social security specials - coming to your neighborhood real soon.
Hey Ted...You want to be a greeter?
steve simels - buy ya another drink, sailor? I'll be back in town in a few weeks...
Fresh clean sheets in the open air.
And one for Tena.
"The Chats I Love/Hate"
--by Frustrated and looking for a way out (male), age 18
I too have unfortunately fallen into the web of pornography... more along the lines of sexual chat rooms than anything else. More or less it consumes me when I am depressed, confused and upset more than anything else. I pray night in and night out that I am able to just not go back to those chat rooms or just not go to those graphic web sites anymore. I have tried taking an approach by going one day at a time, but that doesn't always work.
I can't tell my family or anyone else I know because it is not their fight but mine, and on top of that I feel I owe it to myself to do this. I got myself into it, and I can get out of it as well. After being involved in any type of pornographic event I feel empty inside, that I am a piece of garbage basically. That feeling is just unbearable, especially knowing that I have loving friends and a caring girlfriend who are more than anything pornography has to offer. I simply need the Grace of God to help me through this. I pray and I pray and it helps for a minute but then I have to go back. I have to talk about my urges. The devil gets in me and I think about the pornography, but I know Jesus will help me in the end.
Carlos change your nic to Charley. I think you have more in common with him.
NTodd:
I look forward to it.
I say next time we take bets on how long Ted stays away after claiming to leave. 50 quatloos says five minutes.
New thread. Our host is out for the evening. Everyone play nice.
steve simels - Your email never came through, you didn't happen to log off before it finished sending?
Hoyt C.
Exactly right! What the anti-vampire forces in America have to do is flood the media with angry calls and emails whenever they pull one of their many pro-Gooper acts!
Pundits from the rightwing press flood TV and radio. National Review and The Weekly Standard are on all the time, not too mention Buchanan, Blankely, Coulter and that traitor NOvak.
Why isn't Alterman on? What about Conason? Or Molly Ivins?
How come we're flooded with the bloodsucking bats from rightwingnut caves and decent, honest, liberal voices are few and far between?
What we have for media in this country today is orchestrated fascism.
Comparing the USA to Nazi Germany, how precisely is it different from the right when they compare it to decadent Rome? How is this different from the way the right used to compare the USSR to the Nazis and Nuclear Freeze advocates to Neville Chamerlain.
You're saying "there are warnings in history and you'd do well to heed them".
What right wingers like Ted are really offended about is that anybody would compare (white) victims of the Holocaust to Arabs or Cambodians or American blacks or native Americans.
How dare they. The Holocaust is special because it's the most recent (and extreme) example of what men treating their fellow white men like an "inferior race".
Just for fun, I went to my alma mater's website to see if I showed up anywhere. I do here, here and here. Whew! cuz if'n Ted Hitl...er, Smith demanded proof, I'd have to go into my disaster area of an office to find that fricking piece of paper saying I R a gradiate...
>>>"Exactly right! What the anti-vampire forces in America have to do is flood the media with angry calls and emails whenever they pull one of their many pro-Gooper acts!"
Right. Just like all your anger and hate did the trick last election.
.
Before the Nazis, lots of cultured Europeans considered Germany the most civilized nation on earth.
responding to:
Oh Ted Smith, don't be silly! It will be a thousand times worse because America was once the greatest hope of man: now it is just a place where the liars boast about their transgressions with impugnity.
chris/tx:
I screwed up you address...I just
resent it
Ba'al - Where did you get those confessions? Those are priceless - you been over raiding YHWH's mailbox again?
Tena--
The Rethugs blatant manipulation & abuse of the abortion issue IS skillfull -- otherwise why is everyone talking about what we ought to do about it!?
And Hi, Tena!
UOK?
I asked steve simels if he would loan me his beret so you would love me but he said
1. He would never part with his beret
2. Mr Tena probably wouldn't approve
(peope are so selfish!)
Carlos:
I guess you missed the point (probably happens a lot huh?).
There was no anger or hate expressed even when Bushboy & Rover sprung their Swiftboat Whore brigade, lying throught their teeth!!!
Bushboy still sucks, even worse than he did the first four years of failure.
QL in NY
Yeah -- genuine monk -- 30 years in the monastery
Episcopal priest for about half that
Member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club
Occasional thinker
Constant liberal
I usually agree with DAS
(Does this mean Episcopalians are liberal Jews?)
Tena - I posted Ba'als link on the new thread.
A person is depraved when he sends men and women off to fight and die in a war but doesn't care if they are properly equipped or have sufficient armor.
It is a moronic depravity when that person is apprised of the armor problem that is causing many more deaths and dismemberments than would otherwise be the case, but instead of addressing the issue and getting it fixed, the depraved moron goes on a tour to promote "Tort reform" or "Private accounts!"
And the corporate media barely mentions the problem, out of respect for the depraved moron's "feelings."
chris/tx - thanks. I'm going back and forth - I must have just missed it.
steve - i'll give better notice this time!
and re appeal to authority, i just saw i had an extraneous 'requires' in my last post about it. sorry.
Prior - well it is steve's beret and thus is probably not the right one for you.
Naw - I don't they're skillful - it's a subject that is going to come up as long as it is unsettled. Once it comes up, it will be discussed. That's a different issue than any political acumen the Bush administration and the Repugs might display on the subject.
I really don't know how much longer we can avoid having to come to a conclusion about the definition of "life". And yet I know of no way that that can be accomplished.
Tena--
I don't think it is a definition of "life" so much as it is a definition of "human"
There used to be a prayer (deleted from the newer Roman Catholic Rites) to be used when a seriously deformed baby was born (& obviously going to die), "If you a human, I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
It is gone now & Rome won't admit that their current definition of when a fetus becomes a human being (rather than POTENTIALLY a human being) is a new one
There is a reason why (the Anglican theologian) Austin Farrer referred to the Roman Catholic Church as "the truth factory on the Tiber"
(No offense, NYMary -- I didn't use the word "papist", OK?)
Prior Aelred - I see bigger problems with defining "human" than I do with defining "life", myself. Oh - that gets awfully subjective in a very not good way to determine whether, say, an ancepalic infant isn't a human. No - I don't want to go there.
Trying to come up with a definition of "life" is bad enough. Personally, I think that "life" and "breath" are synonymous.
And I think the bible says so.
Bob Somerby nailed Dionne a few weeks ago when Dionne did another column that blamed the Democrats for things that were actually the media's fault.
Dionne, like every other SCLMer, refuses to admit that the media shape the news, much less that they shape it in the GOP's favor.
Tena --
In Hebrew "breath" is "ruach," usually transloated as "Spirit" -- cartainly life realted from a certain point of view
But life is not only human -- animals have life -- the bacteria we fight against is life -- the mosquitoes we spray, that's life, too
Cancer is life that is out of control
But defining "human" is a problem, no doubt!
Prior - I should have made it clear that I meant "human life" in this instance. That's what is at the heart of the issue.
There's no need to go further than that for these purposes.
University of Colorado officials investigating embattled professor Ward Churchill received documents this week purporting to show that he plagiarized another professor's work." . . .
Dalhousie began an investigation after professor Fay G. Cohen complained that Churchill used her research and writing in an essay without her permission and without giving her credit. Although the investigation substantiated her allegations, Cohen didn't pursue the matter because she felt threatened by Churchill, Crosby said.
Crosby said Cohen told Dalhousie officials in 1997 that Churchill had called her in the middle of the night and said, "I'll get you for this."
What possesses smart people to write columns like that.
The same thing that possesses dumb people to write posts on those columns. It's what they do.
I see I've been namestolen yet again. Glad to see I'm such a good debater that people have to resort to what's considered the trolliest of behaviors to try and get a rise out of me and try to "win".
I wonder if you all would be willing to let Atrios expose all the trolls and namestealers - it would be interesting to see who sees fit to steal names, wouldn't it?
It would be interesting, too, to see who would be opposed to such things.
Well, I'm really overdue for a nice walk on this sunny day.
Translation from brownshirtese: I'm getting my ass handed to me on a platter, and there's no more pages in the script.
Unka Karl, take me away!
Well, so much for "taking a walk".
Guess the new scripts got handed out to the night shift...
Well, so much for "taking a walk".
It's been two hours. Walks need to take longer than two hours?
Get a life, chum.
Analysis: Bush Shifting to Other Issues
Never is the question asked, "is our journalists learning?"
The official White House Style Book says that "shift" is not an acceptable term.
The word they would prefer to use for anyone that changes their mind, for any reason, is "flip-flop."
The WHSB dictates that this term should also be frequently applied to someone who hasn't actually changed their position at all, if only to promote the notion that the person in question is somehow indecisive about something, somewhere.
It's been two hours.
Like anyone gives a shit.
Who needs a what?
And try and stay on script, will you? I realize it's difficult, what with keeping all the different handles straight...
Like anyone gives a shit.
Great response, Einstein. You're a real great debater.
Now go back to saying brownshirt, zzzz, fuck, Karl Rove, and bitching about how long I'm gone taking a walk.
Ted, Ted, Suppers ready. Put down your Barbies and come to supper.
"You have to wonder why it is so hard for so many Democrats to learn that a little open-mindedness on a very difficult question is not only a virtue but also a necessity."
Amen, Mr. Dionne. If the Dems would simply allow the STATES to decide the abortion issue, millions of us who reluctantly vote GOP because of this one issue would gladly return to the Democratic party.
What possesses smart people to write self-justifying and disingenuous responses like yours, Atrios? Dionne is right - 38% of pro-choice voters, and a good number of ambivalent voters on abortion do not see the republican party as a threat on abortion. Sticking your fingers in your ears and humming really loud doesn't help a whit; if the Democrats are going to survive, then they have to be willing to elect a pro-life Democrat into a position rather than a Republican.
The situation is the same in that NARAL is the NRA of the Democratic Party. They've already said they're going to support Chaffee if Langevin runs. But it'll be the same situation when Casey is actively defended by Schumer; if he's left out to hang like Klink was, then we'll know that nothing has changed. Especially since NOW has just launched campaigns explicitly against both Langevin and Casey. This ain't a tiny group that opposes them, it's the same group that spent a good chunk of January actively preventing Tim Roemer from becoming head of the DNC. Not because he worked for the PNAC, that would be perfectly acceptable, because he was a pro-lifer.
Pro-Choicers are both Democrats and Republicans, but the problem is that Pro-Lifers are only Republicans, Especially aggravating when Democrats accuse the gay pro-lifers of being straight, the atheist pro-lifers of being religious fanatics, and the women pro-lifers of being men. This hasn't helped anyone - pro-lifers are getting screwed economically not only because the Republicans are lying to them, but because the Democrats telegraph screaming hatred to them. Just like some folks who respond to my intemperate post here are going to proceed to rip into me primarily for suggesting that maybe, just maybe by rebuilding some traditional Democratic coalition the Democrats might hope to win some freaking elections again.
Go look at the apocalyptic scenarios painted every other day on DailyKos - the horrified screams when Harry Reid became head of the Senate Dems. Because he was ambivalent on abortion. Go look at the people accusing Casey of being equivalent to Santorum, because he's pro-life. Go look at your own posts, man, you're a brilliant guy, but you're doing your best to push away a large base of dedicated people who will vote for the Democrats if given an option. Judis has almost realized this - Hispanics care enough about abortion to switch over to the Republicans.
This is the final flower of single issue politics. Look, the message that the only good progressive is pro-choice, and that the only good Democrat is pro-choice has done untold damage to the Democrats and the progressive cause. Hell, Crisis, the arch-conservative Catholic magazine refers to the National Conference of Catholic Bishops by that old title - the praying wing of the Democratic party. Well, that's not quite true - the National Conference of Catholic Bishops runs far to
Gah; truncation. Never mind - look, the mindset that it's possible to be a good Democrat if you're pro-choice, hell that you can be a good progressive only if you're pro choice has done inestimable harm to both Democrats and progressives in general. Bush won, the debate about "waht if" the Republicans have untramelled control of government on reproductive rights is over. They have it. The abortion debate is now in a whole new legal domain. Electing pro-life Democrats is a plus because it means more Democrats in office. Olympia Snowe may be pro-choice, but she's not a Democrat, Arlen Specter is pro-choice, but he's not a Democrat. They vote for frist, tehy vote with Bush.
The real issue here, especially now that NARAL, NOW and PP are actively campaigning against both Casey and Langevin is whether the Democrats want to shrink their coalition even further to just the 20% of the U.S. that is intensely pro-choice, or do they want to recapture the traditional Democratic coalition. Recapture labor, recapture the religious, the middle class who finds themselves choosing between pro-life and pro-choice republicans and hell, might as well vote for the pro-life republican because it's at least one thing that they do agree on.
The alternative is single-issue intransigence on abortion, and if that happens then we are all, pro-lifer and pro-choicer alike, very deeply screwed.
I'll say what I said to Armando over at Kos:
One bad column, and the blogsphere crucifies him.
I mean, what is this shit?? Week in and week out, Dionne writes wonderfully perceptive columns. Anybody counting the times Atrios or others have posted something like "Dionne nails it"? It's happened a lot.
So ONE STINKIN' BAD COLUMN, and everybody's jumping on E.J.'s ass.
Yeah, he got it wrong. But can you at least point it out in a way that cuts the guy some slack, that recognizes that he's one of the few major columnists out there to use his choice real estate to consistently stand for the same things we do - instead of landing on him with both feet?
Y'know, there aren't enough people fighting the good fight, that we can afford to trash them for having one bad day. Kindly grow up and get real, Armando. And Atrios too, for starting this pile-on.
And I ask again, why do Democrats keep leading with their chin?
Why do they keep letting the Republicans define them with WEDGE ISSUES?
Why are Dems letting the Rs debate abortion while never pointing out the myriad of other problems women face today from low wages, lack of health insurance, cost of higher education, paid sick days to care for children, etc., etc, etc.
Atrios is right in his criticism of this column.
Dionne is sensitive to the alienation of blue collar workers (particularly Catholics) from the Democratic Party that has been foisted by the Republicans through the largely symbolic use of socially conservative issues. He very much wants the Democrats to find ways to get them back; he just misses the boat on this one.
Still, even among "liberal" columnists, Dionne is one of the best. He has written some perceptive columns over the last few years, which demonstrate that he really gets it in most respects.
"Why are George W. Bush and his party so skillful in dealing with the abortion issue, and why are Democrats so clumsy?"
Because no one can get pumped over a group that promotes fetal assassination through commerce.
It could be what I have suspected for some time, DL really isn't that smart after all, is he?
Because no one can get pumped over a group that promotes fetal assassination through commerce.
But they can apparently get pumped, as you seem to be, over a group that promotes the mass murder of tens of thousands of people, many of them pregnant women.
Way to go, anti-choice crowd! Thanks to your blind support of the Republican agenda, George W. Bush has become the biggest abortion provider this nation has seen in years.
When are we going to play offense?
When, gods, when?
WHEN ARE WE GOING TO TAKE THE OFFENSIVE AND SAY FUCKING FUCK YOU FUNDIE WOMAN-SLAVING BASTARDS, THIS IS WHAT WE STAND FOR AND WE ARE GOING TO ACTIVELY KICK THE ASSES OF THOSE WHO OPPOSE US.
First Rove cornered us in the schoolyard and demanded our lunch money. We acquiesced. Then... well you can finish the narrative.
This whole new abortion quisling paradigm makes me physically sick. It is beyond belief how far we have fallen so fast, and now we are in freefall. Hey Karl, can I freshen your lemonade while you reinstate child labor?
Medea Benjamin, I am ready to join your party and support your run for president.
And fuck Dionne. He's another useless tool. He's said half a dozen useful kickass things amid years of ultra-polite bush-accepting verbiage. He fucking thinks Monkey is the legitimate president and deserves respect. Oh, but he spits out the koolaid a little bit every six months. Yeah that's the ticket for reclaiming our nation!
Rove has us earnestly discussing if a woman has a right to first trimester abortion.
Tomorrow he'll have us earnestly discussing whether the state should deny access to birth control.
The day after that, we'll be earnestly discussing whether women should be stoned to death for engaging in non-marital sex.
we don't read dionne, but dionne should read this.
(excerpted from under bush, a new age of prepackaged news by david barstow and robin stein, new york times; sunday, march 13, 2005)
Under the Bush administration, the federal government has aggressively used a well-established tool of public relations: the prepackaged, ready-to-serve news report that major corporations have long distributed to TV stations to pitch everything from headache remedies to auto insurance. In all, at least 20 federal agencies, including the Defense Department and the Census Bureau, have made and distributed hundreds of television news segments in the past four years, records and interviews show. Many were subsequently broadcast on local stations across the country without any acknowledgement of the government's role in their production.
This winter, Washington has been roiled by revelations that a handful of columnists wrote in support of administration policies without disclosing they had accepted payments from the government. But the administration's efforts to generate positive news coverage have been considerably more pervasive than previously known. At the same time, records and interviews suggest widespread complicity or negligence by television stations, given industry ethics standards that discourage the broadcast of prepackaged news segments from any outside group without revealing the source.
Federal agencies are forthright with broadcasters about the origin of the news segments they distribute. The reports themselves, though, are designed to fit seamlessly into the typical local news broadcast. In most cases, the "reporters" are careful not to state in the segment that they work for the government. Their reports generally avoid overt ideological appeals. Instead, the government's news-making apparatus has produced a quiet drumbeat of broadcasts describing a vigilant and compassionate administration.
Some of the segments were broadcast in some of nation's largest television markets, including New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Dallas and Atlanta.
Dionne was also factually wrong about Casey.
we don't read dionne, but dionne should read this.
Do you even read at all?
Didn't think so, asswipe.
Do you even read at all? Didn't think so, asswipe.
we don't read you, but you really should read this.
Let's be honest, where "prolife" and "prochoice" differ most significantly is in our attitudes about the understanding of what the sanctity of life (not just in abortion, but in end-stage disease and "right to die" cases) is and how best to address it. Prochoice looks at a whole risk:benefit ratio surrounding prognosis, quality of life, pain & suffering and duration. "Prolifers" look only at duration; their fight is to ensure birth at the beginning and to prolong death (they prolong the act of dying, not someone's life) at the end.
If you had your choice between your child dying immediately from a quick gunshot to his/her head or being neglected/abused and tortured for months or years prior to his/her death, which would you choose? I would choose the former as the least cruel alternative. Based on the espoused beliefs of "prolifers" that all life is sacred, regardless of circumstances or quality of life, they should be choosing the latter and let their child be tortured to death over a period of time because at least they are alive to endure it longer than the child who dies immediately. In essence, that's what they demand of people who terminate a pregnancy due to a significant fetal deformity (even an imminently fata one) and people who want to withdraw life support from a loved one (or themselves) when treatment is futile.
When are the Democrats going to go on the offensive?
When they finally forget about the mushy middle, the swing voters that are probably just a chimera invented by consultants to get the Democrats to chase their tails until they're dizzy.
When they get off their butz and start to organise among a huge section of the American electorate, mostly low income and minority, which does not vote, and bring them on board as Democratic voters.
Meantime, I'm gonna get off my ass and do a little research to try and come up with some support for this.
Democratic victories won't come from peeling a few voters away from the Repugs.
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