I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
knew it
yeah
Can we just move on, please, to the Michael Jackson show, so Tom DeLay can threaten judges in peace and BushCo. can shill for Custer-Battles without interuption?
It's hard for the moles in the white house basement to keep coming up with filler all the time. The lease we can do is transition smoothly from one sideshow to the next.
The Pope believed that Bush was the Antichrist and had expressed his regret that he wasn't a younger man to fight Bush's ascendancy. So I think a younger Pope with the same sort of politics would be a good place to start.
Plus my kid just called to report that a diner behind her and other 16 yr olds discussing death of pope (God knows how irreverent they were, especially being heathens) put his cigarette out in one's coffee. She was flabberghasted but I had to tell her obviously the man took offense at their perceived sacrilege. But this all brings up the idea that yes we can respect the feelings of Roman Catholics, why should the rest of us care about who's in the bullpen, etc.
I should be made pope. Sure, I'm an atheist, and have never been a Catholic or even believed in God. But I'm as qualified to be pope as John Bolton is to be ambassador to the United Nations, and as qualified as Wolfowitz is to be president of the World Bank, and for that matter as qualified as Dubya is to be President of the United States.
Or as big a liar as Rice?
Or as Matthew Hogan is to be Director of the Fish & Wildlife Service.
Ummm, as a Catholic, son of an ex-priest, and someone generally knowledgeable about vatican politics and the faith in general, WTF? The Pope might be 'chosen' by God, but only through the mechanism of elections. I mean, who thinks the college of cardinals has no say in this? Who is this guy?
In the words of my uncle Paulie, "may the next pope be both laid-back and Italian."
Anyone who can get the Church out of its crouch on population control and the other hairy personal stuff that it's fumbled every time.
Let us pray.
I wish to be both king and pope. Eeee!
The Counter Reformation pioneered modern propaganda methods—even the word "propaganda" comes from the formal name for the Roman Inquistion... de propaganda fide. No wonder the papacy gets wonderful press from the professional journalists who have inherited these technques. John Paul II was obviously an impressive human being in many ways; but like other great figures, he was a deeply problematic figuire whose talents and charisma were as often mobilized in support of bad causes as good ones.
The former Pope's rock star status shouldn't obscure the fact that his Church is the last remaining absolute monarchy on the planet and promotes some of the silliest superstitions going.
yep, i grew up in the catholic church and that is pretty much what we believed-so there really wasn't much point in discussing it. i mean are you gonna interfere with god? kind of presumptous.
i don't know if bush is the antichrist, but he sure as hell is antiamerican.
The papacy is not the last remaining monarchy on the planet. Blast it to hell and may its wealth be redistributed (we get the vast liberary of "confiscated" porn and grimoires), but that's a careless statement.
OT, but....
04/01/05 AP: National Guard relaxes recruiting standards
Under a policy approved this week, the guard will accept recruits with at least a ninth-grade education, as long as they get a satisfactory score on a vocational aptitude test and obtain a GED within three years of signing up.
The best and the brightest.
The pope's death reminds me of Paul VI's death in the late 1970s. My teen-aged sister, whose was only semi-fluent in Spanish, was visiting Mexican relatives at the time. Everybody kept talking about how "el Papa se murio!".
What my very confused sister heard: "the potato died!" The word for potato, "la papa", is similar to the word for Pope, "el Papa".
When ever a pope dies, I think, there goes another big potato...
Aboslute monarchy. Read before you type.
Let's not forget that many of us real Christians believe that the Roman Church is the Whore of Babylon.
Rrright, because Nepal and Jordan and Saudi aren't aboslute.
I like the "anti-Christ" line that popped up recently (and I forget the source, help?). Since Bush is basically anti-Christ in his actions towards the least among us.
But what do we know- the only parts of the Bible that count are the Ten Commandments, the Passion, and Revelation, right?
(we get the vast liberary of "confiscated" porn and grimoires),
You can have the porn, but I have dibs on the stolen grimoires.
The coming conclave was discussed on CNN this morning. The editor of "Inside the Vatican" said he thought they might elect a bishop rather than a cardinal, and that it might be a Russian (he had someone in mind but he wouldn't say who).
I heard someone mention yesterday that the run-up to past conclaves has involved much frantic scurrying around from place to place in Rome so different people could talk to each other. This time, they've all got cell phones and laptops and email, which is going to make the whole process go a lot more smoothly...maybe.
Keep an eye out on TCM for a movie called "The Shoes of the Fisherman," starring Anthony Quinn. It's about the election of a (fictional) Pope and is apparently pretty accurate about the machinations and rituals involved.
The politics are Cold War and pretty dated (the new Pope is a Soviet mole!), but it at least gives a pretty good idea of what's going to be going on behind the scenes.
And I'm sorry, anyone who thinks Catholics are ignoring the politics of it and saying, "Why be interested, it's God's will" is an utter moron.
Where does this leave...the pornographic grimoires?
Boil the dead Potato!
I dunno. I just go ahead & believe what I'm gonna believe, church dogma be damned (no pun intended). The Catholic Church was constructed partly on subjugating and negating women anyway, so I figure what do I care what they think about my beliefs. I do love lots of the ritual and I get a feeling of peace from the prayers at Mass (when I go).
Tonight my best friend & I, who met 25 years ago at Catholic University in DC, took my 8-year-old to Mass there. My friend & I saw the Pope at Catholic U when he came to the U.S., so tonight was a very special and important ritual for us. I even asked my son if he wanted to make his First Communion tonight, since we're going to be out of town for the big hoop-de-doo ceremony at our own church in a few weeks. He said yes.
The Eucharistic Minister who unwittingly delivered his First Communion to him was, fittingly, a woman.
De mortuis nil nisi bonum, but I think it's fair to point out that the agenda and people advanced over the last 20-plus years, and the sympathetic reaction that has been evinced, have been overtly authoritarian, hostile to women's rights, and increasingly oriented toward the traditional religious structures still prevalent in Africa and Asia and away from the more modern ones prevalent in the US and most of western Europe.
They say, "after a fat pope, a thin one." We can only hope...
Silliest superstitions. Last week my main squeeze and I went to art museum and there was a poster from Paris at turn of the century depicting the devil with usual facial imagery combined with fish like bottom half.(forget the reason)
He about ran out of the room like he'd just seen a ghost or something and I think he was genuinely scared. Another friend got up during Exorcist crying and shaking and I was like WTF? Often wonder what the hell they learn.
Boil the dead Potato!
I prefer my potato (and my pope) mashed. They had to do in the pope when he had been inside so long he began sprouting more eyes.
***************************************
SPOILER OF SPOILERS:
***************************************
At the end of Shoes of the Fisherman, a Cultural Revolution/Sino-Indo War-like massive famine-filled crisis is avoided by the redistribution of the Vatican's wealth.
But what do we know- the only parts of the Bible that count are the Ten Commandments, the Passion, and Revelation, right?
make that the 9 commandments bub, wait Strike Killing, and coveting thy neighbors wife (or the fedaral treasury), so lets make that 8, woops, strike the graven images, as that tends to get in the way of the BushChrist™, so that leaves us with the 7 commandments, though I imagine a couple more could be tossed for the sake of expediency.
Well, Atrios, you go to press with lies you have, not the lies you wish you had.
Jay, the Bush/Anti-Christ article is here:
http://tinyurl.com/3tlyy
It's one of the two things I agreed with the late JPII about (the other being his firm opposition to the death penalty).
OT: Amazingly, Pumpkinhead Russert had a pretty good show on tonight as he interviewed Johnny Apple and Jack Germond. It was good because Timmy allowed them to speak without constantly interrupting them. He actually allowed them to blast Emperor George I on many of his inanities!
Enough Pope Noise, the ferret needs a good single malt scotch.
spinozaquito: imagine learning that the Exorcist is not only real, but common.
Blitzer's guest was an inaccurate asshole. The papal election is one of the few moments when the RC church -- in essence, a multinational absolute monarchy -- lets a degree of democracy into the door. Sure, it's an electoral college of sorts, and it's been skewed by both the passage of time (over 80s can't vote) and JP2's appointments, but as the repercussions over JP1's death showed, the hand of God sometimes writes like a doctor.
Btw, do any Catholics know what replaces the 'pray for N, our Pope' in the missal during an interregnum? Just curious, since I'm just old enough to remember JP1's death and JP2's election, but not old enough to remember being in church during that time.
Popetato?
we mean when you're young enough to totally buy it.
OT, but:
Go, Big Ten!
Go, Blue States!
This time, they've all got cell phones and laptops and email, which is going to make the whole process go a lot more smoothly...maybe.
Beaming with pride that JPII sent his first Papal email using the same laptop as me. Except his has some kind of Vatican hood ornament on the front. My crappy Dell is not nearly as well tricked-out.
The media coverage is ridiculous
One note Tweety talked about the Pope being a man's man (we all remember that theme from the election)
How he liked to be among men --well duh--that's all there is in the leadership of the Catholic Church
They have nothing to say --there is nothing to see and no one is going to tell them who they plan on voting for for Pope. Why can't we have regular news now?
The abomination of Pat Buchanan and fat pig Bill Calhoun is truly disgusting and a whole weekend of it.
It's beyond stupid
They are all horrible but as usual Tweet wins the prize for being the worst.
thanks, Mnemosyne.
It's just plain fun to have a working theory using "Bush" and "Anti-Christ." Besides the obvious theory of course. 
Christopher Hitchens seems to made a cottage industry of pissing on the graves of the recently deceased. Whenever a major world figure is not feeling well, I know that I can go to Slate and have Hitchens tell me what a bastard he was.
http://slate.com/id/2116085/
When you cook a popetato, does the smoke rise white or black?
sorry...
Apparently Kyra Idiot (or another CNN moron) described JP2 as 'a very religious man' yesterday. Who shat in the woods.
I hope I can convince all of my fellow Catholics and my non-Catholic brethren (and sistren) to challenge anyone you hear blabbing on about how Bush and JP2 both embraced "the culture of life."
The Catholic "Culture of Life" includes opposition to unjust war, nuclear weapons, unbridled capitalism, and the death penalty. So if any fundie moron starts to say it, please shut him up by saying, "So you're against the death penalty? 'Cause you can't have a 'Culture of Life' when you're executing people" or "So you're against laissez-faire capitalism? 'Cause you can't have a 'Culture of Life' when people are starving."
I just wanna make some pointy little heads explode.
Now I'm off to eat Cuban food.
damn skippy....Go State!
Hitchens is just sad that his liver hasn't failed yet. He's trying so hard to dig his own grave, but nothing seems to be working.
Hitchens is a fucking drunk media whore asshole. I wish we could trade places with him and the pope.
The Shoes of the Pope-piel Pocket Fisherman
OT, but....
04/01/05 AP: National Guard relaxes recruiting standards
Under a policy approved this week, the guard will accept recruits with at least a ninth-grade education, as long as they get a satisfactory score on a vocational aptitude test and obtain a GED within three years of signing up.
NOOOOOOOOOOO!
pseudonymous, if you're really interested I'll tell you tomorrow, after Mass. I was wondering that myself.
popetato
Kind of like JFK the jelly donut. I have no idea if that's myth or not, btw- my schools only taught me French and the classics- highly suspect, unAmerican institutions now that I think of it.
The Pope is dead
That's what I said
The Pope is dead...
Standin' on the corner now
If you wanna be a pontiff, wow -
Remember the Pope is dead...
When I heard the pope was dead, I had to celebrate. My local Anacostia bar has a good anti-papist mix, 1 part vodka, 2 parts santorum, and an olive I carried around in my rectum for at least 24 hours. They call it a Pope fizz.
-Liddy Dole
Gotta root for North Carolina. Terps fan = gotta support the ACC...unless Duke is involved.
Sean, relax. The game doesn't start 'til 9.
obtain a GED within three years of signing up
holy shit! Even aWol could do that!
Now I'm off to eat Cuban food.
-- Mnemosyne
Well, see, you're obviously a Commie.
Now ya gotcher dead bishops
And yer dead alter boys
On a Passover night
Ya got a bunch of dead goys
Gotcher dead Baptists
And your Muslims, too
The blood and the guts
Are gonna make ya swoon
Ya got a dead pope
In the middle
Dead pope in the middle of the road
Dead pope in the middle of the road
And he's stinkin' to high heaven!
If you want to know what a Papal election is really like, scare up a copy of the Commentaries of the 15th Century pope Pius II. The Commentaries were recently translated in the I Tatti Renaissance Library series put out by Harvard Press.
gotta support the ACC...unless Duke is involved.
Agreed on Duke. But this is a special group of UNC overdogs. I just can't deal with the critical mass of Tar Heel fans surrounding me every day, so go State!
And I'm a pathetic Wake fan. Hmm. Maybe I should think of changing that posting name....
You will not get shit academically in your first three years in, especially now. It's just like the drug waiver thing; now they have a more inclusive GED waiver.
This a stupid thread. Sorry buddy. But American politics and politics in general have NOTHING to do with the selection of the new Pope. No country has a say in whom the Vatican decides upon. Sometimes they pick the oldest candidate so that he can die faster and more people can have a shot to leave, sometimes they have an extraordinary candidate they can't refuse ( like John Paul II ). Leave politics out of this. The left and right are both trying to pull politics into this and it's STUPID.
In the words of my uncle Paulie, "may the next pope be both laid-back and Italian."
Had one of those... John Paul I
He lasted thirty-three days before, according to some, he was done in by entrenched interests in Rome.
On August 28, the beginning of his papal revolution was announced. It took the form of a Vatican statement that there was to be no coronation, that the new pope refused to be crowned. There would be no sedia gestatoria, the chair used to carry the pope, no tiara encrusted with emeralds, rubies, sapphires, and diamonds. No ostrich feathers, no six-hour ceremony.... Luciani, who never once used the royal "we," was determined that the royal papacy with its appurtenances of worldly grandeur should be replaced by a Church that resembled the concepts of its founder. The "coronation" became a simple Mass. The spectacle of a pontiff carried in a chair...was supplanted by the sight of a supreme pastor quietly walking up the steps of the altar. With that gesture Luciani abolished a thousand years of history.... The era of the poor Church had officially begun.
That right there would have been enough to make the Vatican's power elite nervous, but surely not enough to seek the Pope's death. Not even his expressed interest in reconsidering the Church's position on birth control would have been enough for that. What was enough, was his intent to overturn the tables of the corrupt Vatican Bank, and purge the Vatican of the P2 Lodge.
http://rigorousintuition.blogspo...killed- him.html
So anyway, if the Pope is chosen by god, what happened with John Paul I? He change his divine mind?
Toonscribe, you still in East TN? Read on an earlier thread about an interview you did in Knoxville. Hell, I feel so lonely here.
You know, it's too bad Hunter S. Thompson is no longer with us. He would have made a great pope.
NOOOOOOOOOOO!
-- pie
Afraid it's true, pie. The Nat Guard story was one of the stories linked to at icasualties.org. They have another story that I couldn't force myself to read -- apparently a woman (I think it was in Maine) committed suicide about two weeks after her husband was killed in Iraq.
Fuck Bush and the war he rode in on.
who said this was about american politics?
Yeah, I think JP1 was nicknamed "the smiling pope," which is a fantastic pub name now that I think of it.
Totally OT (but I thought kinda clever):
From Entertainment Weekly's "What To Watch" TV reviews
Whoopi:Back To Broadway - The 20th Anniversary
With new characters and old faves like Fontaine.
Absent is the little black girl who wanted to be white. Did she get over that, or become secretary of state? We'll never know.
Yeah, I think JP1 was nicknamed "the smiling pope," which is a fantastic pub name now that I think of it.
Patti Smith wrote an absolutely bizarre song about her crush on John Paul I. It was called "Wave".
i saw i saw you from your balcony window
and you were standing there waving at everybody
it was really great because there was about
a billion people there, but when i was waving to you,
uh, the way your face was, it was so, the way your face was
it made me feel exactly like we're
it's not that you were just waving to me, but
that we were we were waving to each other.
C'est la vie. C'est la guerre. C'est la pomme de terre.
Buck Fush!
No country has a say in whom the Vatican decides upon.
Gee, really?
We're kidding, joking around, being sarcastic, etc.
*sigh*
Check out lightiris' outstanding rant about the Catholic Church at Daily Kos: http://tinyurl.com/4b3vu
NASA is dead.
Many soldiers died today. Probably quite a few children starved to death in Iraq and Afghanistan today.
And the top news story is, the Pope, a very rich, powerful man, eclipses even Mr. Perdue in death, the pope dies of fricking OLD fricking AGE.
Oh wow.
who said this was about american politics?
Atrios | Email | Homepage | 04.02.05 - 8:30 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
They probably thought this because you mentioned Wellstone (who would have made a great pope) and Papal (popal? poopal? mashed popetatol? elections in the same post...
What my very confused sister heard: "the potato died!" The word for potato, "la papa", is similar to the word for Pope, "el Papa".
I always thought how funny it was that in French, the word "avocat" means both "avacado" and "lawyer".
They probably thought this because you mentioned Wellstone (who would have made a great pope)
Wellstone was Jewish. He also supported gay rights and equal rights for women.
To his credit, he would have made a horrible Pope.
ope. Pope pope pope. Pope pope. Pope pope pope pope pope pope pope pope. Pope pope pope. Pope pope pope pope pope pope pope pope pope. Pope pope pope. Pope pope pope. Pope. Pope pope pope. Pope pope pope pope pope. Pope pope pope. Pope. Pope pope. Pope pope pope pope pope. Pope. Pope pope. Pope pope pope. Pope pope pope pope pope. Pope pope. Pope pope pope pope pope pope pope pope pope pope pope pope. Pope pope pope pope pope. Pope. Pope pope pope. Pope pope pope pope pope pope pope pope. Pope pope pope pope pope pope pope. Pope pope pope pope pope. Pope pope pope pope pope pope pope pope. Pope pope pope pope pope. Pope pope pope pope pope pope pope. Pope. Pope pope. Pope pope pope pope pope pope pope pope. Pope pope pope pope. Pope pope pope pope pope. Pope pope pope pope pope pope. Pope pope. Pope pope pope pope pope. Pope. Pope pope pope. Pope pope pope pope pope. Pope pope pope. Pope pope pope pope pope pope pope. Pope pope. Pope pope pope pope pope. Pope. Pope pope pope pope pope. Pope pope pope pope. Pope. Pope pope pope pope pope. Pope.
For more Breaking News about the Pope, click here.
Wait, Take Two on what I wrote above:
The Catholic "Culture of Life" includes opposition to unjust war, nuclear weapons, unbridled capitalism, and the death penalty. So if any fundie moron starts to say it, please shut him up by saying, "So you're against the death penalty? 'Cause John Paul II said you can't have a 'Culture of Life' when you're executing people" or "So you're against laissez-faire capitalism? 'Cause John Paul II said you can't have a 'Culture of Life' when people are starving."
That's the phrase that should make some pointy heads pop.
Okay, now I'm taking my commie pinko ass out for some Cuban food. (Happy now, Toonscribe? )
who said this was about american politics?
Atrios
First of all, "American" is capitalized, unless of course you don't love America.
Second of all, we once knew this Chinese guy whose dad ran a Japanerse restaurant, and one night there was a near-argument with his roommate about how, being Chinese, he should've run a Chinese restaurant.
But in all truth if anything is such a crime, it's a Japanese citizen who has never been to Mexico running a peudo-Mexican restaurant based on movies, guesswork and Taco Bell. Taco cheese and rice!
yeah, as pope, thompson would say that while he didn't recommend that catholics get into the use of illegal drugs,it had always worked for him. it wouldn't be a papal bull or anything. just sort of a papal suggestion.
Fuck Bush and the war he rode in on.
Murderer.
Damn, even Cheney is distancing from Bugman
http://tinyurl.com/58szk
I always thought how funny it was that in French, the word "avocat" means both "avacado" and "lawyer".
I always thought how funny it was that in English the word asshole means both Bush and Delay.
The Catholic "Culture of Life" includes opposition to unjust war, nuclear weapons, unbridled capitalism, and the death penalty.
Did the Catholic church ever take any concrete steps against the war in Iraq?
Like advising Americans not to enlist?
Because they took concrete steps against abortion and gay rights.
As far as a new Pope goes, it only matters what Nancy Grace thinks.
The Catholic "Culture of Life" includes opposition to unjust war, nuclear weapons, unbridled capitalism, and the death penalty.
And this is articulated, how and when?
Bah!
the Pope, a very rich, powerful man, eclipses even Mr. Perdue in death...
That reminds me of an old ad, When Frank Purdue tells you his chicken's been boned, you know he did the job himself. Okay, maybe it wasn't an actual ad.
SWR;
I guess that is why I thought he would make a great pope.
C'est la popes fritas...
Ladies and gentlemen, place your bets!
"As far as a new Pope goes, it only matters what Nancy Grace thinks."
--Stinky
I could've sworn you were going to say Nancy Drew.
mer
Sorry, but I'm not there anymore. Spent about twenty years in Knoxville, going to UT for a damn long time (lots of fun) and then working, but I moved to Southern California in 1990 and have been here ever since, except for visits back. I was a reporter for WIVK radio for a couple of years and then worked for the cable community access channel, the last couple of years as general manager. One of my brothers lives in Knoxville now, works for Jupiter Entertainment.
I think there's someone else here who posts from Knoxville occassionally, but I can't remember who.
Just Another Terrorist Organization Gone Terminal on Itself: "High-stakes freaks like David Duke and Manuel Noriega and John Poindexter and 'Redrum' Rumsfeld would be sipping pina coladas poolside, along with Gordon Liddy and Oliver North and Tommy Franks, shacking up together as one big delusional and happy family in a single - albeit monstrous - Mandalay Bay-like existence all tucked away forever, with a fully stocked open bar and satellite TV beaming Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous reruns and overflowing platters of tropical fruit and Don Ho yodelling Tiny Bubbles behind the Hawaiian organ and hordes of tanned topless servants lapping the grease and shards of meat from their fat fingers while others comb at the thin hairs on the backs of their necks, insulating them from all the struggles of the outside world."
[ New Photo of Jeb "Fredo" Bush available ]
I guess that is why I thought he would make a great pope.
You can't order people from the top down to support womens rights and gay rights.
And I don't quite get people who need leaders to mediate between them and whatever God they believe in, people who accept whatever a hierarchy tells them to do.
It's lazy faith. Genuine religious faith calls for a personal journey of exploration, not a dictat from Rome.
Dave;
Truly Fracking Hilarious!
"i don't know if bush is the antichrist, but he sure as hell is antiamerican.
dan hoppe "
You can say that again.
I believe the antichrist was Reagan:
Ronald Wilson Reagan (666)
At least that was the rumor.
Standing Wave Ratio,
American Catholics all line up at the Cafeteria, regardless of their protestations to the contrary. Il Papa speaks; America blows him off. This is why things like the John Kerry wafer watch were sheer hypocrisy. Conservatarian American Catholics have one dictum (dictum? Damn near killed 'im!) that they prize above all else: IOKIYAR.
And this is articulated, how and when?
The Catholic Church is pretty admirable when it comes to social justice, so these issues are actually articulated frequently. The reason we don't hear about it ad nauseum is because greedy rethuglican evangelicals who control FOX news and AM radio and the MSM tend not to repeat things the Pope said when it makes them look like heartless assholes.
Footloose (if'n yore steel aroun')
Coffee in most roadhouses is improved by dousing ones butts in it. Mostly it's just brown water anyway. the trick is not to get ASHES into the cup...Whatca do is take a couple o' deep, hot drags right down near the filter, knock off the ash, and gently roll the hot ember into the full, hot cupt of 'coffee.'
leastaways, that's how i did it...
just sayin...
.
Now's the time to closely watch the Bush administrations executive actions while the press and everyone else is focused on the Pope...
Just in case you missed my "pope quotes" at the end of the last pope diary...here is what he had to say about gay people, and only a small portion of that, actually:
We shutter when a person tells Us that he or she is "gay." It is amazing such people would portray themselves as being honorable in that state. The innuendo that comes through is that the person was born to be that way, just as a white man was born to be a white man and a black man was born to be a black man. We are what we are in our color, and there is nothing we can do about it. It is God-given. We cannot admit that the tendency towards living as a homosexual is anything else than an expression of the fall of Adam in paradise.
Did you get that? He "shudders" when someone says they are gay. Really, aren't shudders only indicative of disgust and hate?
and
Gay marriages are destructive of human society.
uh, yeah, gay marriages are what is bringing the world to its knees...not the right wing war on the environment...not the war on the iraqis...not the huge population that he refuses to allow to be controlled...yeah, it's gay marriage that is the evil in the world.
and
Today We raise Our voice in condemnation of homosexual marriage. Such unions are always sinful. They work for the destruction of good order in the state. They work for the general lowering of all morals standards, and they proliferate souls who generally live their lives in the state of mortal sin. The likelihood that they die that way is great. Hence, the purpose of God's creation is frustrated, because human beings who are destined for heaven will instead go to hell. This world was made by God to produce human beings who in turn were to be elevated by the state of sanctifying grace. In that state alone can persons enter heaven. All those who do not enter heaven, of necessity, will go to hell.
go ahead and get my room there ready, then.
and
Children who are adopted by two persons in a state-sanctioned homosexual union also see the immorality of their caretakers and will likely grow up thinking that such behavior is normal. How sad for these children! Their eternal soul is in great danger. In Matthew 18, 6, Our Lord said, regarding those who would give scandal to young children:
"But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea."
here that all you gay parents? Your children would be better off dead then with you.
and
In recent times, civil governments, local magistrates and politicians, have begun the horrific concept of performing marriages of homosexuals. This goes completely against the laws of God and His Church. We hereby condemn homosexual marriages, as We also condemn any sin against the laws of God and His Church.
As long as Bible History accounts continue to be told, men will know that God hates homosexuality and punishes homosexuality most severely.
God hates? Wow, and here I thought he was a loving God. Well if God hates, I'm sure that the Pope does, too. Wasn't that the point of all these quotes?
Rot, you asshole.
Hi Fred!
Pat Buchanan and Ray Flynn all in the space of 15 minutes.
Why don't I just turn off the TV?
I always thought how funny it was that in English the word asshole means both Bush and Delay.
spinozapeep | Email | Homepage | 04.02.05 - 8:38 pm
Hahahahahahah - good laugh for such a sad? day.
sorry for all the spelling errors...I've already had my first toast in celebration.
I believe the antichrist was Reagan:
Ronald Wilson Reagan (666)
At least that was the rumor.
I was working with a guy in '81 who suddenly upped and quit and left the state to go live on a commune. Not that big a deal in those days, but a couple of months later we got a letter from him where he laid out the case for Reagan being the Anti-Christ in minute detail, and how he and the rest of the commune were preparing to ride out the coming Apocalypse...
Why don't I just turn off the TV?
Because basketball is on.
Las Bushistas...
Sleight of hand...
Slight of mind...
Indirection and outright stupidity (i.e., stupid like a FOX) are their M.O.
Don Ho yodelling Tiny Bubbles behind the Hawaiian organ and hordes of tanned topless servants lapping the grease and shards of meat from their fat fingers while others comb at the thin hairs on the backs of their necks, insulating them from all the struggles of the outside world."
[ New Photo of Jeb "Fredo" Bush available ]
syntallic -- 8:43 pm
I say, sirrah! Who wrote that? It's positively HSThompson-esque...there's worse things...
You can actually bet on the next pope.
A UK website has odds and takes bets.
Odds-on favs:
1.Dionigi Tettamanzi
Country: Italy
Age: 71
Assets: Italian.
Liabilities: Italian.
2.Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga
Country: Honduras
Age: 62
Assets: Latin American. Friend of Bono.
Liabilities: Compared media to Hitler. Too young.
(In my opinion, this guy is leading canddiate. Apparently he speaks 8 languages and that is important for a "media pope").
3.Francis Arinze
Country: Nigeria
Age: 72
Assets: Black! Third Worlder. Can go nose-to-nose with Islam.
Liabilities: Black? Maybe too conservative. African Catholic Church too young
(He is black and all, but we do not want him. He wanted to excommuniate John Kerry for his views on abortion!)
* * *
There a few more listed, but talking about media popes, an Australian paper said that Cardinal Dias of Bombay, India can speak 16 languages.
He is about 15th on the odds.
***
I did not know this before, but there are 11 cardinals from the US. That is almost 10% of the vote and no other country has that many votes.
Quite unlikely a US cardinal will become the Pope, but my vote is for our local Wash DC cardinal, Theodore Cardinal McCarrick. He is so down to earth and media-savvy.
Hecate!!!
Howyadoingurl?!???
Why precisely are Pat Buchanan and Chris Mathews so fond of authoritarian, welfare state, top down quasi-socialism as long as the Catholic church advocates them?
And why doesn't someone call them on their bullshit. How can the Pope have supported workers rights when he broke liberation theology in Latin America. It wasn't Communists who were slaughtering union organizers.
The reason we don't hear about it...
Um, what's being said at Mass?
My nominee for most ridiculous media of the night:
Keith Olberman interviewing Chris Matthews.
Showing no one has anything left to say.
Why precisely are Pat Buchanan and Chris Mathews so fond of authoritarian, welfare state, top down quasi-socialism as long as the Catholic church advocates them?
They're moronic men?
WoodyGsGuitar,
I wrote that ... if it's HST-esque .. it's because i wanted it to be
HA
Saint Hitchens, Patron Saint of Snitches
Not to be confused with "whistle blowers" -- who really are praise-worthy.
In fact, Saint Hitch is looking rather apostolic himself these days in a drunken, bleary-eyed sort of way, of course, vis-a-vis the growth of possibly ugliest beard ever seen on man or beast, let alone on television! He was seen of late pontificating and delivering encyclicals on "Hardball" relative to feeding tubes and oxygen supply.
And, like the Pope, Hitch views himself as infallible on matters of faith and morals.
While whingering and carping and kvetching and complaining about members of the Holy class, in addition to exposing them for the truly venal and narrow-minded buggers they are, Saint Hitch writes as if he were divined to do so by...well, perhaps you can hazard a guess.
Thanks, superdude, for the link to Hitch's latest on the Pope for Slate -- it makes my case about the godly tone favored by Snitchy One.
Oops... The EVILS of HTML... let's try again...
Hecate!!!!!
<<Bowing to the goddess of deadly nightshade>>
Howyadoingurl?!???
people advanced over the last 20-plus years, and the sympathetic reaction that has been evinced, have been overtly authoritarian, hostile to women's rights, and increasingly oriented toward the traditional religious structures still prevalent in Africa and Asia and away from the more modern ones prevalent in the US and most of western Europe.
bleh
Hey I'd be much happier with Bishop Zen over any Bishop or Cardinal out of the US. I haven't heard Zen utter a peep on abortion or keeping women barefoot and pregnant in recent years. Universal suffrage, welfare for the poor, and creating a system that lets parents make enough money and still have time to be parents to their kids, yeah. Abortion, not so much.
Tom P., that's a great idea. Why didn't I think of that? I have some booze just waiting around for me to get the time to drink it
SWR;
I completely agree. If these views on Religion and Spirituality were more widespread, the Pope and his ilk would be obsolete.
Unfortunatly, so many "faithful" are like sheep, unwilling to think and believe for themselves. If someone in a position they respected (and blindly followed) would speak out in favor of gay rights, womens rights, etc., the world would be a better, more tolerant place (IMHO).
Leadership can be as simple as setting a good example-- which is why Paul Wellstone could have made a good Pope.
But an awful lot of people's motivation for being in a church is just plain old tribalism-- which is why they 'accept what the hierarchy tells them'...'s weird to see that effect with people who accept the BushCo line on 'terra'
Well, the game's on.
Have a nice night.
Keith Olberman interviewing Chris Matthews.
Sounds like MSNBC edict from high above the three ring circus .. wondering if Olberman is about to jump to another network now that you mention it.
At least when the cardinals pick a new Pope they don't hold hourly press conferences and accuse their fellow cardinals of murdering the last one.
It is amusing to watch the cabloids scrambling to fill air time with what is after all not a very visual story. My favorite part (I could only take a little of it) was when CNN was showing a priest at St Peter's and they had a translator doing a voiceover. The priest started saying the Hail Mary in Italian and the translator dutifully started translating, "I salute you Mary. You have much grace."
Keith Olberman interviewing Chris Matthews.
Both of them are obviously unwilling to question the "greatness" of the Pope.
OK. Both of them are Catholic. But I doubt any Jews or Protestants in the media are going to call bullshit either.
Just about the only good thing about this is the fact that it's showing how the media isn't run by a liberal Jewish conspiracy that hates Catholics.
Oh fuck it, they're going to say that anyway. The media's going to slobber over JPII for the next week and we're still going to here about some liberal who dissed the "Holy Father".
Check out lightiris' outstanding rant about the Catholic Church at Daily Kos: http://tinyurl.com/4b3vu
Frederick
Thanks.
I'm so glad I read that.
OOps. I'm wrong. Olbermann said he was brought up as a Unitarian.
April D,
Ave Maria, grazia piena...
"Hail Mary! We who are about to dine salute you!"
Oh...da howwah... [Elmer Fudd, "Apocalypse Now," the Bugs Bunny edition]
SWR;
May we commence the Dissing?
Tom P.;
Typos or no, great rant! Here's a toast to you! (Chink!)
I would hope for a new Pope who will more strongly rebuke Bush for his lust for violence and his Social Darwinist domestic policies.
The funeral will be in 3-6 days and the conclave to elect another pope in 15 days. How will the media fill the time? Beyond watching for black or white smoke from the Vatican chimney.
You see the fuckers pulling this on shabbos so no true ANTI-CATHOLIC ANAL JEWS can give appearances. Fucking tricky Catholics.
Tired of the Pope Post-Game Show?
I'm watching North by Northwest on Turner Classic Movies.
And why doesn't someone call them on their bullshit. How can the Pope have supported workers rights when he broke liberation theology in Latin America. It wasn't Communists who were slaughtering union organizers.
SWR --8:52 pm
the vatican kowtowed shamelessly 6to reagan on the matter of the rape/murder of the salvador nuns...JP2 loathed liberation theology more than he loved liberty...
May we commence the Dissing?
Actually the NY Press published a diss of the Pope a few weeks ago and I thought it was tedious.
I don't want dissing. I want them to cover the Pope objectively, to ask some real questions.
Brand new blog-love:
Goodbye, England's Rose; Or, The Death (And Coverage Thereof) of Pope John Paul II:
April Foolishness
Get it while it's hot....
Matthews will interview Nancy Reagan tomorrow on the Pope.
Saw Carl Bernstein (who wrote a JP II biography) with Olbermann last night, and he was describing the papal election process. Olbermann said he sounded like a political reporter describing the old-school party conventions with the smoke-filled rooms. Bernstein said, yeah, an old ward-heeler would be right at home.
So there ya go.
Oh, and in an interview with Amb. Ray Flynn, an Irish Catholic Reagan Dem-type, they were talking about how a lot of his peers left the party to work in Catholic social justice, and Tweety repeated the damn Bob Casey '92 convention story.
I heard the pope is not really dead. He is just off bopping Angelina Jolie for a week or two. Then he will come back and declaire it a miracle.
North by Northwest!!!
Mr. Waverly before he went on "The Man From UNCLE!!!"
Cary Grant, Eva Marie Saint, Chames Maison, Martin Landau and Mount Rushmore!!!
Al Hitchcock, where are you now that your country needs you?!???
I think Tom P. screwed up. The anti-gay statements he attributes to JPII appear to actually be those of "Pope Pius XIII" of something called the "True Catholic Church." Here is the speech in question:
http://tinyurl.com/5dlhn (scroll down; search terms highlighted)
and here is the church's homepage:
http://tinyurl.com/5j42h
You see the fuckers pulling this on shabbos so no true ANTI-CATHOLIC ANAL JEWS can give appearances.
That's really dumb. No religious Jew is going to diss the Pope and piss off a few billion Catholics.
And no secular Jew (or non Jew) is going to get booked on TV to diss the pope.
God, I wish HL Mencken were alive.
But I guess I'll have to make do with the predictible rant from Christopher Hitchens.
One plus point for Pope JP2.
I read today (and did not know this before) that he felt so passionately against the Irq war that he heavily lobbied for his position at the UN. He pressured heavily Mexico, Chile and two other Latin Am countries to vote against the second UN resolution
and that worked. There was no second resolution, partly because of the Pope.
So there must be bad blood between Buish/Blair and the Pope.
I wish he had lobbied against that first resolution 1442 too.
Hey. Maybe we can get a nice anti-Catholic rant from Ian Paisely.
WHY AREN'T THEY SENDING MATHEWS INTO THE HARDCORE PROTESTANT DISTRICTS IN BELFAST??!!??
I'd love to see that.
SWR;
Unfortunatly, any objective disemination of JPII's legacy would be seen as "Liberals Bashing the Pope" by the SLCM.
I doubt we will see anything resembling objective regarding JPII for a decade or more.
I read today (and did not know this before) that he felt so passionately against the Irq war that he heavily lobbied for his position at the UN. He pressured heavily Mexico, Chile and two other Latin Am countries to vote against the second UN resolution
and that worked.
If that's true I'll take back some of what I said about him.
Fuck you, Atrios.
I'm not exactly what you'd call a big supporter of organized religion, especially when it comes to the Roman Catholic Church, but there's no need to use the death of that rare good man as a segue to political whining.
John Paul II was an honorable, righteous, caring non-hypocrite spokesman for human life. I understand that, even knowing he represented an archaic, repressive religion that politically has done more harm than good.
His death is a real tragedy, yet you can't wait until his body gets to room temperature before making clever yet thoughtless political points?
Shameless.
Even worse, in a larger perspective, is that the papacy has become a political icon, used to attack points of view (when convenient) and as the subject of attacks (when convenient).
Abortion? Have to disagree with Ye Pontiff there. Anti-death penalty? Yep. Anti-war? Again: yep.
I would agree that Matthews and Buchanan favor a Roman Catholic top-down authoritarian worldview, but I'm not so sure about the "welfare state quasi-socialism part of the equation.
In my mind, those two pontificators seem much too right-wing and reactionary for any phrase containing the word "socialism" -- and Buchanan despised "welfare queens" as much as Ronald Reagan if not more so.
My guess is that both Matthews and Buchanan are closely affiliated with the powerful and ultra conservative Opus Dei; and even if not actual members, they are very much at home with that mind set.
Another example of a classic Opus Dei type is man-on-dog Rick Santorum.
I doubt we will see anything resembling objective regarding JPII for a decade or more.
wolferj -- 9:06 pm
or longer...
Pius 12th's collaboration w/Hitler went completely ignored til Rolf Hochhuth's play, (senescent moment..."The deputy"?) in 1966...that's over 20 years...
just sayin: I probably won't live to see it...
SWR, we weren't talking about religious or secular Jews.
We were talking about the ANAL JEWS!
Readers of the irreplaceable GV will know that the anus was something of a sticking point as both fags and Jews when both came out in the seventies and fought with eachother like puppies. In particular, EYAWTKAS*(*BWATA) went off on anal being just unimaginably feh! so dirty. Gore, of course objectively, attacked this analysis.
In other words, to accuse Jews of being anal-sex-obsessed is about as logical as accusing obsessive-compulsive hypochondriacs of ingesting human blood.
Ranty,
All that would be valid if I were engaging in "political whining," however my criticisms were directed at the media...
Fuck you Ranty. I hated the asshole, and I'm glad that he finally gave up the fucking ghost. He did nothing but rag on gay people for as long as I can remember.
You don't like my comments? Get the FUCK over it.
Somehow I knew that Kei and Yuri would somehow work Jews into even a discussion like this.
I'm impressed.
But I'd still rather see Chris Mathews in the most hardcore Protestant part of Belfast trying to get people to say nice things about the Pope.
God I'd pay money to see that.
The big issue is being overlooked here. Bush is going to have flags flown at half staff for the pope. When has that ever happened for a foreigner and the head of a religious cult? What ever happened to separation of church and state?
The papacy has been nothing if not political for many centuries.
A "good man," maybe, whatever that means. But bad for women, bad for the environment, two things that matter a lot in the world now.
Ranty,
Distinguish the things that differ...
Atrios wasn't slamming JPII, only the media whores who want to milk as much entertainment value from the death of a great man as possible. I can picture Father Guido Sarducci right now selling "Pope on a Rope Soap"...
SWR, not Jews, but preposterous Opus Dei hallucinations.
Hey, Ranty:
Betcha you cheered when Wellstone's plane crashed, so don't give us that crap about Atrios picking on a dead man.
And even as I type this, you should know that Metternich Ratzinger and his boys are pushing to have JPII canonized, not because they liked the man (they didn't), but so that their anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-liberal agenda will be cemented forever in Church doctrine.
Meanwhile, speaking of arch-conservatives doing things for purely political reasons -- check this out.
Matthews will interview Nancy Reagan tomorrow on the Pope.
emd
No way they'll even let 'em in the same room with the Pope, much less sit on him.
finally!
Even worse, in a larger perspective, is that the papacy has become a political icon, used to attack points of view (when convenient) and as the subject of attacks (when convenient).
Abortion? Have to disagree with Ye Pontiff there. Anti-death penalty? Yep. Anti-war? Again: yep.
Ranty
Nope. The Catholic Church has never been a political icon. Nosirree, George. Just ask Machiavelli. Or the line of Holy Roman Emperors. *geesh*
And Tom P. you can pray and rant in favour of the next Pope not being so virulently anti-homosexual. The Church is bound by Papal philosophy, but not all of the hierarchy is virulently anti-homosexual.
Tom,
Thank God for the Cafeteria. Would that more Catholics would choose the healthy, tolerant menu instead of the artery-clogging menu of hate.
Nope. The Catholic Church has never been a political icon. Nosirree, George. Just ask Machiavelli. Or the line of Holy Roman Emperors. *geesh*
Or Dante who put a Pope in hell.
Thank God for the Cafeteria. Would that more Catholics would choose the healthy, tolerant menu instead of the artery-clogging menu of hate.
Sorry. Being an anti-religious liberal that I am, I just packed my usual lunch of babies and kittens to much on.
It is within the power of every man and woman
To seek life and love or death and hate.
Why is it, then, that some choose love
While others choose hate?
Tune in at 11:00 PM for in-depth coverage of this controversial phenomenon.
To hear it around here, the Pope almost single-handedly brought down communism, at least in Poland, if not everywhere else in Europe.
Of course, there was someone in Poland named Lech Wellesa, and all of his other Soldarity colleagues, who took all of the risks, and who was not safe in the Vatican when the real drama was taking place. (Yeah, I know the Pope got shot by some other kind of nutcase, but it had nothing to do with his stand vis a vis the Soviets).
I hate it when people are suddenly made heros when they made minor contributions.
Another way to put it to some of the wingnuts is if Ronnie Raygun single-handedly brought down commieworld and the Pope also single-handedly brought down commieworld, are these statements fully commensurate? Or maybe they are not quite such heros at all.
SWR,
I'll pass on the babies, but I wouldn't mind some of that pussy if you're in a generous mood...
Ba'al,
I heard from Molech that Ronald Reagan killed the Commies...
In the words of my uncle Paulie, "may the next pope be both laid-back and Italian."
For some reason, the image these words brought to my mind was of Doctor Nick Riviera, from the Simpsons...
http://www.geocities.com/College...899/
hievery.wav
Ranty;
I must disagree with you calling the Pope a Good Man.
Anti-woman, anti-gay, anti- oh the list is too long to continue. He may have lobbied against a UN resolution, but I cannot agree with you. There are way too many strikes against him and his actions.
I have been on the receiving end of too much hate and bigotry that was sanctioned by the church.
While Atrios was only talking about the media, I am not. I do not celebrate the death of any human, but some folks do not rate very high on my sympathy scale.
You know what really would've been cool is of there was no response (ie, here) at all to the Pope's death.
At this point the Church is in the nine-day mourning period for John Paul II. The conclave cannot be called before April 17. For most Catholics, discussion of the next pope is not the main focus of things right now; rather it's celebration and remembrance of the last one.
For this Catholic at least, all the speculation about the successor while John Paul II hasn't even been buried is rather tasteless. For goodness' sake just hold your horses for a couple of weeks. There'll be plenty to talk about then.
K&Y,
Not psychologically possible given the attention focused on il Papa by the media. Besides, the Pope (love 'im, hate 'im, or anywhere in between) exerts a powerful influence on world affairs. So papal demise is newsworthy and worthy of discussion.
Oh, and no Atrios, that wasn't a jab at you for discussing it. I've actually enjoyed your restraint.
Thank God for the Cafeteria. Would that more Catholics would choose the healthy, tolerant menu instead of the artery-clogging menu of hate.
Fred Woolsey
Not just Catholics, but all religious conservatives using religion as a method to gain personal power via social control of others.
Maybe it's time to take an inventory of the church.
When things got this bad in the past
the faithful marched off and formed a new church.
The catholic church is one of the largest employers in the US. It can barely pay a living wage to it's dedicated employees.
Funds that should be used to build the church are being used to defend pedopile priests.
Parish churches are closing down all around the country.
In the diocese of syracuse ny, the average age of priests is now over age 63. And they cannot staff the declining number of parishes.
Seniors and the faithful who want to make bequests to the church will not make bequests since they do not have any guarantees that their gifts will stay in their parish.
In many cases,Bishops mandated that all bequests be sent to the diocease rather than remain in the community where they were earmarked by donors
So...with no money, no priests and an uncaring hierarchy, how long can this church survive.
The church will not openly discuss its problems. The rot is so deep, I wonder if the insitution will decide
Catherine,
Atrios is muy bravo IMHO.
we were saying, like, since he cared so fucking much about the poor, etc, how about we credit him after we see a change in their situation? Oh, that's right, it's a virtue not a goal, "the poor will always be with us."
Tom,
Amen! Can I get a witness?!??
I'll pass on the babies, but I wouldn't mind some of that pussy if you're in a generous mood...
Pussy's all gone but really, tried the fried baby. It goes great with a bottle of nice elitist liberal white whine and a volume of Chomsky.
Ranty
Atrios may not have been slamming JPII, but consider him slammed in this post.
He has for the last 20 years, at least, been an incredibly influential advocate for a medieval world view that does not bode well for our existence as a species. We will be better off without him except that his succesor will be just as bad so it just doesn;t fucking matter at all.
Fuck the Vatican, they have been Nazi collaborators, inquisitors, thieves, and moral degenerates. Whatever they are now is just a modern form of what they always have been.
Fred;
Witness I!
Don't know quite why, but the 24/7 Dead Pope coverage has driven me to my Fassbinder DVD collection. Just started "Katzelmacher."
Really, really can't watch the news coverage...are they making any concession to the fact that 5+ billion people in the world aren't, you know, Catholic?
K&Y,
Point taken. Mebbe il Papa shoulda watched The Shoes of the Fisherman. I wonder how many "Starvin' Marvins" the church could feed if it sold off its great wealth to feed the poor?
What's worse, the papists or the fundies?
Really, really can't watch the news coverage...are they making any concession to the fact that 5+ billion people in the world aren't, you know, Catholic?
Even Al Jazeera's kissing his ass.
Hey. This sounds like Pat Buchanan.
At the same time, John Paul was no friend of Western lifestyles, warning against rampant consumerism and casual
sex.
The Vatican forced Gallileo to recant.
The only sad thing is, soon we will have yet another Pope.
What's worse, the papists or the fundies?
There's a difference? Not much that I can tell.
What's worse, the papists or the fundies?
Neither. There's no difference between them.
Nazi collaborators? Try their inspiration!
Pope-a-Palooza!! Deathwatch 2005!!
I plan on turning "pope-smoke" into a mechanisim for choosing my dinner. Black smoke: Pork Chops.
White Smoke: Fish
We will be serving burgers and fries in St. Peter's Square in my papacy.
worship Ba'al today. it is your only defense against your TV set.
Or listen to Zappa.
there are 11 cardinals from the US. That is almost 10% of the vote and no other country has that many votes.
Um, that's not true. The Italian cardinals (diocesan, emeritus, plus Roman Curia) make up about 20% of the voting bloc.
Set up your handicaps at CardinalRating.com
Maybe the papists and the fundies should unite.
Pope Dobson?
We will be serving burgers and fries in St. Peter's Square in my papacy.
No fried babies?
Dammit. What's a liberal atheist going to do.
Wolferj,
Papes and fundies? Difference there is, I say. Study you must. As for matters practical, academic often is the difference. Americans mostly no difference see. Santorum and ilk responsible are.
A new day is dawning in the Vatican under Pope Pommes-Frites XXIII.
worship Ba'al today. it is your only defense against your TV set.
Or listen to Zappa.
You know, I have about as Polish a last name as you can get.
Any chance of going to a bar and getting some pity sex out of it.
Maybe I can fake a slavic accent and talk about being broken up about the Pope's death.
SWR, Tom P., Dave, K&Y, et al;
Thanks for a breath of reality during this pope-a-palozza on the MSM. I'm off to make dinner and start some serious drinking.
'night all...
SWR,
Pity sex may you yet obtain. The only bad pussy is no pussy.
And one wonders why Catholics are abandoning the Democratic Party. The Howard Dean and MoveOn.org wing of the Democratic Party are doing wonders for the Republican Party. Thanks guys, please keep it up.
Pope Pommes Frites XXIII
It's time for a joint papacy with Pope Eil.
And George Foreman for the fatfree burgers.
And one wonders why Catholics are abandoning the Democratic Party.
Let them go.
If you don't support gay rights and womens rights, go fuck yourself.
Your statement makes about as much sense as saying "gee. This Civil Rights Act. No wonder the South is becoming Republican."
Oh and Fred;
Right are you. The quick crack gives way to insightful thinking more. Keep challenging us all, for that is how we learn and stay humble.
MSGR Thomas McSweeny, MSNBC Analyst?
They keep priests on the payroll?
I [heart] Ba'al.
He said what I would say.
And in all the flowery statements upon JPII's death, please, let us not forget these things about the man:
1) He did nothing to improve the lot of women upon this earth, choosing rather to emphasize that compared to his great love the Virgin Mary, we're just so much dirt.
2) He condemned numerous men, women, children and babies to death because of his diseased policies. Instead of telling people that it was OK to protect themselves against the possibility of AIDS, he instead sent out his minions to spread the Word of God that condoms break and are unreliable. Now our government echoes that same stance (see the new website for parents that was put online this week). He did not empower women to be able to tell their partners NO or "Put this on first" before sex. He emphasized that the main role for women in this world is that of babymaker and was opposed to birth control.
3) He hated homosexuality so much that it warped his view of the world. He considered it such a great threat, something that Jesus Christ himself had nothing to say about. The pope has made it OK, if not chic, in some quarters, to talk about how evil gays and lesbians are and how gay marriage would cause the downfall of society (like so many threats before it--not).
4) When he did speak up, he was timorous before the powerful. He had the authority and he could have shamed George W. Bush in ways we can't imagine, but he did not use his authority, rather preferring to protest tepidly about Bush's march to war. The pope preferred to use his bully pulpit to smash down women, ensure the spread of disease and spread his gospel of hate of gays and lesbians.
I'm not sorry to see him go except for one thing: his successor will likely be much worse.
You know, if Saddam Hussein died, we'd be treated to a whole litany of all his evil deeds. Why should we whitewash the pope, whose deeds also deserve the hard light of day?
What's worse, the papists or the fundies?
Fundies. While both have a pre-modern worldview, you don't find many creationist papists.
"Ranty,
All that would be valid if I were engaging in "political whining," however my criticisms were directed at the media..."
I understand that. I also understand that your criticisms of the media, in this case, are of like kind, using the same silly "logic." Wellstone comparison? Puh leeez.
Hmm...perhaps a bit too much meta-analysis on my part.
American Catholics are abandoning the Democratic party, if they are, because they have taken the fruit of the Tree of Self-Righteous Pharisaism and eaten of it greedily. Plus they stop at the cafeteria every Sunday (or Saturday night in their shorts and tank tops) and pick and choose their dogmas, all the while castigating "liberals" for opposing papal authority. Fuck 'em!!!!
SWR- didja notice the troll's name that you responded to? Take a second, closer look.
And Catholics aren't leaving the Democratic Party. Religious conservative wing nuts in favour of a theocracy are, but to conflate that population with American Catholics is silliness worthy of a troll.
Thanks guys, please keep it up.
Because we know you have trouble keeping it up, Schwa?
Too easy, troll. Too damn easy.
What's worse, the papists or the fundies?
Reasons to prefer the Catholics to Fundis:
1.) They're OK with Darwin.
2.) Have no trouble with alcohol.
3.) Slightly better on economic issues.
Reasons to prefer Evangelicals to Catholics:
1.) Less rigid on divorce.
2.) Better taste in polyster suits.
3.) Velvet Jesus paintings beat Michaelangelo for kitcsch value.
I'm not sorry to see him go except for one thing: his successor will likely be much worse.
Unless it's me, of course. I will endorse grease wrestling in the Sistine Chapel.
3) He hated homosexuality so much that it warped his view of the world. He considered it such a great threat, something that Jesus Christ himself had nothing to say about. The pope has made it OK, if not chic, in some quarters, to talk about how evil gays and lesbians are and how gay marriage would cause the downfall of society (like so many threats before it--not).
Did he know that the guy who painted his ceiling was gay?
Wolferj,
Humble must we all be. A Jedi craves not power; the dark side, there is. Bitch-slap one another we must, needs be if.
OT, but can I just say that I'll always remember that on the day JPII died, my day consisted of waking up, enjoying some outdoor naked pot smoking, getting dressed and building a fire of cardboard, misc. papers, boxes, and-oh, yes-some rolling papers I didn't want my dad to find. I followed that up with nachos for lunch and shooting model rockets.
I hope Ba'al is pleased.
36 hours and counting until we leave for Costa Rica!
SWR- didja notice the troll's name that you responded to? Take a second, closer look.
Yeah. He's an occasional troll and I fed him.
Trolls have to eat too.
Little does he know, however, that, as a liberal, I mixed in fried baby with his troll food.
Yeah, I always have a good laugh at the pro-death-penalty Peggy Noonan types who call me a cafeteria Catholic because I don't have a problem with birth control. The big difference between me and them is I'm fully aware of the contradictions, and yet it doesn't break my faith in the church. If it weren't for cognitive dissonance, their heads would explode.
3.) Velvet Jesus paintings beat Michaelangelo for kitcsch value.
You've obviously never been to Lourdes. Holographic crucifixions and plastic Virgin Mary-shaped holy water bottles a-plenty.
Believe me, most Catholic kitsch gets stopped at the US border, by order of Jeff Koons.
I'd like to see a study on how many catholics have left the church due to its anti-progressive stance. Amazingly, catholic doctrine is anti-republican, except for divorce, abortion, and euthanasia.
Schwa,
Leave it to a half-vowel to troll this thread. Futue te ipsum et caballum tuum!!!, dude!
"Fuck you Ranty. I hated the asshole, and I'm glad that he finally gave up the fucking ghost. He did nothing but rag on gay people for as long as I can remember.
You don't like my comments? Get the FUCK over it."
Love your comments.
And I agree--the Pontiff's anti-gay position was/is despicable.
Still think John Paul did more good than harm. Baby steps...
Yeah, I always have a good laugh at the pro-death-penalty Peggy Noonan types who call me a cafeteria Catholic because I don't have a problem with birth control.
That's why churches has several dozen rows. The Nooner-like crazy Jesus ladies hog the front row (along with the converts) which makes it easy for others to slip in after the opening hymn, sit at the back, and leave after communion.
'churches has'? damn my typist's grammar checker.
You've obviously never been to Lourdes. Holographic crucifixions and plastic Virgin Mary-shaped holy water bottles a-plenty.
I don't like the fundis but I have to admit that there's something gloriously American in their vulgarity.
The Catholic church bores me. Their bigots (like Buchanan and Donahue) strike me as sexually frustrated losers.
Evangelical Protestant bigots just have a color Catholic bigots don't.
Jimmy Swaggert is just so much more entertaining then Opes Dei.
maybe I did screw up...looks like those quotes were from a "different" catholic church.
So, I can't hold those exact words against THIS pope...but I have been searcing for some of the articles and press releases that I have read over the past few years...here are some links...seems like this pope couched his language a little better than the fake one I quoted above.
link
I guess it's a forgone conclusion that the Democrats will never be able to take back majority status in this country until we get rid of our fear and condemnation of organized religion.
"Fuck the pope?"
Please, people. For the love of everything Democratic, show a little respect.
Any quotes yet from Sister Angelica?
and
link
Honestly, if the criticism is how well one is covering an important historical event I can understand it.
But so many times do these threads devolve into sheer and blatant anti-Catholicism that it's hard to take (and may I add, that anti-Catholicism is something this country struggled with for many years). I think Atrios it is naive to claim that you didn't realize that just such would happen.
Many of us disagree with certain positions of this Pope, but saying so is never enough. If you believe in certain things he said, or believe that there is some value to the institution of the Church, you must be a moron, a fascist, or a lunatic.
And so it's very disappointing. Luckily, some of the people on this board who are making such claims are in the distinct minority among Democrats.
Yeah. He's an occasional troll and I fed him.
Ummmm... didja take that second look?
Scwha?
I thought our occasional troll was Schwa?
Over at Political Animal, a fellow named Chuck made a comment that read, in part...
A local priest said just before the election that it was a mortal sin to vote for Kerry. Our local paper did a story after the election on voters who decided on "moral issues". The voters they profiled were very blunt in blaming the Democrats for "moral decay". And they were photographed in, you guessed it, the local Catholic Church.
http://
www.washingtonmonthly.com...6008.php#550619
At the time of the election, I read that this sort of crap was going on. I'm curious, does anyone know how widespread this practice was? Were all Catholic Churches pulling this stunt, or was it a minority? I can't imagine this sort of thing escaping the Pope's notice. With regards to the Pope being allegedly anti-Bush, these goings on would seem to suggest otherwise.
As I recall, Bush won the Catholic vote.
Please, people. For the love of everything Democratic, show a little respect.
Honestly. If I had to chose between an economic conservative who supported gay rights and womens rights and was in favor of keeping the government the fuck out of our private morals, I'd chose him over a Catholic socialist.
Maybe I'm just a liberal Republican at heart, but secularism, equal rights for everybody, and privacy are just as important to me as economic justice.
If Catholics can't deal with accepting gays and women as equals, let them vote for Bush. Yes, it may lead to some elections being lost but the Democrats have already tried the move to the right.
It got us Clinton, triangulation, endless bullshit and eventually Bush.
But I'll respect religious people if they respect me. Let every Catholic read and memorize JFK's speach in Houston and live up to it, and I'm cool with them.
BUT DON'T FUCKING LECTURE ME ON HOW I HAVE TO GET RELIGION OR ELSE
"Hey, Ranty:
Betcha you cheered when Wellstone's plane crashed, so don't give us that crap about Atrios picking on a dead man."
Hint: don't bet.
Wellstone's death was fucking horrible; he was a good man long before shits like you martyred him out. And I've hated that his death has been whored (like you're doing now) in the name of some reactionary political anti-"them" ideology.
The Catholic church is aginst the death penalty, anti-war, and devoted to helping the down-trodden. Implicint in this is the right to decent health care. Surely we can turn these sentiments to our favor? Unfortunatly, the theocons are able to use abortion as the main wedge issue to drive catholics, a traditionally democratic bloc from the party. How do we turn this around, outside of abandoning a woman's right to choose?
Richard, you obviously haven't met a Jesuit (who are very liberal)!
As one Jesuit theologian told me once, if you want a list of the heresies of the church all you have to do is listen to a sermon of your local parish priest.
The Vatican was very clear that politicians could not be denied communion on the basis of their beliefs and there are many liberals within the Cathoic Church.
So when does rev. Moon ascend the throne?
When the pope in a very real sense collaborated with sending Jews to the gas chambers it kind of made it difficult for a lot of people to not be anti-Catholic. That this occurred is so well documented at this point it is not worth arguing.
When members of the Catholic hierarchy told their flocks that it was a sin to vote for Kerry this view was reinforced.
Perhaps anti-Catholic is not the right word. But I am definitely anti-Vatican.
How do we turn this around, outside of abandoning a woman's right to choose?
We can't and we shouldn't even try any more than we should have tried to keep the South by abandonning Civil Rights.
The 'finest hour' of the Democratic party is when they decided to support equal rights for blacks at the cost of losing the south.
There are worse things than losing elections. Yes, you have to make compromises. But you still have to have some core beliefs that you're willing to stick to.
Religion is the antithesis of reason. All the talk about the eternal life as a reward for good behavior is booshwa. The reason for ethical behavior is because any other behavior is self defeating. If religions want a commandment to follow, it must be: Do unto others as you want them to do unto you. Not the other way around.
Maybe the folks at "American Idol" can put together a new competition for Pope.
It woule be more demcratic than a bunch of self-important cardinals stinking up the Sistene Chapel.
Maybe the folks at "American Idol" can put together a new competition for Pope.
It woule be more democratic than a bunch of self-important cardinals stinking up the Sistene Chapel.
Old Lady,
Agree with your conclusion but not your premise.
Won't argue, though...too wasted. All your base belong to us.
Holy Primate
This is for you..
Ba'al Wins "American Idol" Competition
HOLLYWOOD, CALIFORNIA - In a fiercely fought duel of the diva deities, Ba'al overcame YHWH
(aka God) to win a million-dollar RCA recording contract-and the hearts of America-in the
"American Idol II" competition.
In a bizarre twist, after Ba'al was announced the winner, YHWH stormed off the stage,
swearing vengeance and destruction on those who cast their vote for His rival. "I am the
Lord your God!" He screamed. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me! I am a jealous
God!" Shaken by God's unexpected outburst but still smiling, Ba'al said simply, "I can
understand His being jealous, but I wish Him all the best-there are no losers here
tonight."
"Idol" hosts Brian Dunkleman and Ryan Seacrest were less surprised by YHWH's behavior.
"We had a sense there might be some trouble if He lost," said Dunkleman. "When He refused
to do the "Up Where We Belong" duet with Ba'al we knew all bets were off." Seacrest
concurred. "He kept muttering, 'I the Lord am ONE god!' Man, he's more of a prima donna
than Barbra, Whitney, and Mariah combined!"
YHWH's family also seemed taken aback by His display of wrath. Jesus, sitting in the
front row, noticeably cringed and slumped in His seat. He was overheard saying to His
mother, Mary, "Geez, I've never seen Dad so pissed!"
"I'm like totally in shock!" Ba'al answered when asked how he felt about overcoming the
creator of the universe to become the latest American Idol. "I felt like I was in really
good voice tonight, but you know, God is such a versatile performer, I didn't think I had
a chance in hell of winning."
Ba'al's pop-oriented musical choices, though somewhat lightweight, appealed to the mostly
teenage crowd at the Kodak Theatre. His version of "Evergreen (Theme from 'A Star Is
Born')" brought tears to many eyes-and turned out to be prophetic. His rocking "Like a
Virgin" (dedicated to another "Idol" loser, Astarte), got the crowd on their feet dancing.
Bobby McFerrin's loping "Don't Worry, Be Happy" also contributed to Ba'al's feel-good
vibe.
Read Billmon. BTW, is Billmon the only one on the left that has anything interesting to say about the Pope's passing?
For the edification of the "You liberals had better get relgion or else" crowd, I'll post a speech by a Catholic I respect.
While the so-called religious issue is necessarily and properly the chief topic here tonight, I want to emphasize from the outset that we have far more critical issues to face in the 1960 election; the spread of Communist influence until it now festers 90 miles off the coast of Florida--the humiliating treatment of our President and Vice-President by those who no longer respect our power--the hungry children I saw in West Virginia, the old people who cannot pay their doctor bills, the families forced to give up their farms--an America with too many slums, with too few schools, and too late to the moon and outer space.
These are the real issues which should decide this campaign. And they are not religious issues --for war and hunger and ignorance and despair know no religious barriers.
But because I am a Catholic, and no Catholic has ever been elected President, the real issues in this campaign have been obscured--perhaps deliberately, in some quarters less responsible than this. So it is apparently necessary for me to state once again--not what kind of church I believe in--for that should be important only to me--but what kind of America I believe in.
I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute--where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant ministers would tell their parishioners for whom to vote--where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference--and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him.
I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant, nor Jewish--where no public official either requests or accepts instruction on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source--where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly on the general populace or the public acts of its officials--where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all.
For while this year it may be a Catholic against whom the finger of suspicion is pointed, in other years it has been, and may someday be again, a Jew--or a Quaker--or a Unitarian--or a Baptist. It was Virginia's harassment of Baptist preachers, for example, that helped lead to Jefferson's Statute of Religious Freedom. Today, I may be the victim--but tomorrow it may be you- -until the whole fabric of our harmonious society is ripped at a time of great National peril.
Finally, I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end--where all men and all churches are treated as equal--where every man has the right to attend or not attend the church of his choice--where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind--where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, at both the lay and pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their works in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood.
This is the kind of America in which I believe. And it represents the kind of Presidency in which I believe--a great office which must neither be humbled by making it the instrument of any one religious group nor tarnished by arbitrarily withholding its occupancy from the members of any one religious group. I believe in a President whose religious views are his own private affair, neither imposed by him upon the nation nor imposed by the nation upon him as a condition to holding that office.
I would not look with favor upon a President working to subvert the first amendment's guarantees of religious liberty. Nor would our system of checks and balances permit him to do so- -and neither do I look with favor upon those who would work to subvert Article VI of the Constitution by requiring a religious test--even by indirection--for it. If they disagree with that safeguard they should be out openly working to repeal it.
I want a Chief Executive whose public acts are responsible to all groups and obligated to none--who can attend any ceremony, service or dinner his office may appropriately require of him- -and who's fulfillment of his Presidential oath is not limited or conditioned by any religious oath, ritual or obligation.
This is the kind of America I believe in--and this is the kind I fought for in the South Pacific, and the kind my brother died for in Europe. No one suggested then that we may have a "divided loyalty", that we "did not believe in liberty", or that we belonged to a disloyal group that threatened "freedom for which our forefathers died."
And in fact, this is the kind of America for which our forefathers died--when they fled here to escape religious test oaths that denied office to members of less favored churches--when they fought for the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom-- and when the fought at the shrine I visited today, the Alamo. For side by side with Bowie and Crockett died McCafferty and Bailey and Carey--but no one knows whether they were Catholic or not. For there was no religious test at the Alamo.
I ask you tonight to follow in that tradition--to judge on the basis of my record of 14 years in Congress--on my declared stands against an Ambassador to the Vatican, against unconstitutional aid to parochial schools, and against any boycott of the public schools (which I have attended myself)--instead of judging me on the basis of these pamphlets and publications we have all seen that carefully select quotations out of context from the statements of Catholic church leaders, usually in other countries, frequently in other centuries, and always omitting, of course, the statement of American Bishops in 1948 which strongly endorsed our church-state separation, and which more nearly reflects the views of almost every American Catholic.
I do not consider these other quotations binding upon my public acts--why should you? But let me say, with respect to other countries, that I am wholly opposed to the state being used by any religious group, Catholic or Protestant, to compel, prohibit, or persecute the free exercise of any other religion. And I hope that you and I condemn with equal fervor those nations which deny their Presidency to Protestants and those which deny it to Catholics. And rather than cite the misdeeds of those who differ, I would cite the record of the Catholic church in such nations as Ireland and France--and the independence of such statesmen as Adenauer and De Gaulle.
But let me stress again that these are my views--for contrary to common Newspaper usage--I am not the Catholic candidate for President. I am the Democratic Party's candidate for President who happens also to be a Catholic. I do not speak for my church on public matters--and the church does not speak for me.
Whatever issue may come before me as President--on birth control, divorce, censorship, gambling or any other subject--I will make my decision in accordance with these views, in accordance with what my conscience tells me to be the national interest, and without regard to outside religious pressures or dictates. And no power or threat of punishment could cause me to decide otherwise.
But if the time should ever come--and I do not concede any conflict to be even remotely possible--when my office would require me to either violate my conscience or violate the national interest, then I would resign the office; and I hope any conscientious public servant would do the same.
But I do not intend to apologize for the views to my critic of either Catholic or Protestant faith--nor do I intend to disavow either my views or my church in order to win this election.
If I should lose on the real issues, I shall return to my seat in the Senate, satisfied that I had tried my best and was fairly judged. But if this election is decided on the basis that 40 million Americans lost their chance of being President on the day they were baptized, then it is the whole nation that will be the loser, in the eyes of Catholics and non-Catholics around the world, and in the eyes of our own people.
But if, on the other hand, I should win the election, then I shall devote every effort of mind and spirit to fulfilling the oath of the Presidency--practically identical, I might add, to the oath I have taken for 14 years in the Congress. For without reservation, I can "solemnly swear that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will, to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution...So Help Me God."
Michael Jackson for Pope! The cabloids would love it!
Al Sharpton for pope... or Gene Simmons.
Al Sharpton for pope... or Gene Simmons.
I'm no fan of Al but I'd love to see him in a Bishop's mitre.
Re Opus Dei-type pontificators on television:
Besides Chris Matthews and Pat Buchanan, consider the following:
Sean Hannity
Bill O'Reilly
Bob Novak
Joe Scarborough
John McLaughlin
Kate O'Bierne (female brand)
John Kasich
Talking heads seen often on TV as experts:
William Donahue
Peggy Noonan
Now, that really is quite a contingent of far-right leaning Roman Catholics with a distinctly conservative Opus Dei mind set dominating the 24/7 cable news cycle and PBS, as well.
I'm sure there are more examples, but these come to mind at the moment.
Also, I have excluded on purpose Catholics who are moderate, such as Mark Shields and Margaret Carlson, and left-leaning like Jerry Brown and Robert Kennedy, Jr.
SWR;
Thank you for posting that speech. Truly wonderful.
I can't help but wonder that if a politician today gave that speech and simply added Muslim to the phrase, what would happen?
Run out of town on the rails, I suspect...
The Vatican was very clear that politicians could not be denied communion on the basis of their beliefs
Which is irrelevant to the actual point that I brought up, priests using the church to campaign for Bush. Either the Vatican was not very clear on this particular issue, or this occurred with the Vatican's approval. Given the autocrat the Pope was, the latter seems to me the more likely scenario.
there are many liberals within the Cathoic Church.
Being told by your church that voting for Kerry is a mortal sin doesn't really give a Catholic much option to actually act on his liberal instincts does it?
SWR;
Thank you for posting that speech. Truly wonderful.
What about this just escapes conservatives?
I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant, nor Jewish--where no public official either requests or accepts instruction on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source--where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly on the general populace or the public acts of its officials--where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all.
I found it rather offensive that MSNBC has wall to wall coverage of the death of the Pope with a quote from BushCo's latest speech, prominently displayed. It's ok that he spoke, as a world leader he had to (sort of missed the ball after the tsunami, after all). Let's put aside one's differences with the Pope and the Catholic Church on the subjects of abortion, birth control, women as clergy, etc. The Catholic Church has never been for those things in the past, no big surprise that it would still be that way. But Pope John Paul II did make great efforts to promote peace. He wasn't always successful, but who is. He tried and mightily so. So MSNBC (I neither get nor want to get Fox) pays tribute to a man of peace by quoting a man that started a bloody, unnecessary, unjust (the Pope's words here) war based on fabrications and massaging the intelligence. A war this Pope was against. That is like quoting Strom Thurmond on the death of Martin Luther King, Jr. What a crock.
"where ... liberty is so indivisible that an act against one ... is treated as an act against all."
That is my new qoute. Thanks again.
Speaking of Kennedy, Reagan, and the Pope, how much of Reagan's and the Pope's popularity had to due with the fact that both got shot and survived?
I was born after Kennedy got shot, but I'm aware of the fact that it was as traumatic an event as 9/11 for a lot of people (as well as MLK and RFK).
Kennedy was a so so president who was sainted after he was murdered.
Reagan and the Pope had those assassination attempts give them the same credibility and yet they lived.
Candidates for Pope:
Rather than Gene Simmons, how about Richard Simmons?
The first aerobic Pope -- ascending upward on a cloud of pure hot air! --
And the first Pontiff to admit to the world: "I might as well be gay."
Source of Simmons' quote:
www.bobfromaccounting.com/ 2_11_02/richardsimmonsarticle.html
A closet case, sort of....but not really, but only just...but maybe...but not that there's anything wrong with it....
He's the perfect choice!
Been along time since I posted in a serious vein...I kinda went into a self-imposed hole (yeah shutty!) after the election.
As a lasped RC I feel sorrow at his passing as I respected the man if not all of his views. I like to think that right now Christ is having a nice sit-down with him about how certain issues such as BC, homosexuality, women's role in the church, etc.
Like my mum always said when I shared my issues - my fears & concerns about the Vatican..."realize they are still only earthly men"
But then again, I am kinda drunk right now.
Ok, open fire on moi
The Guardian's obit is worth reading: it's an extended liberal critique of the papacy from an insider's perspective, drafted by Peter Hebblethwaite and completed by his widow.
I'm Catholic, and if that man actually said that Catholics believe that the pope is chosen by God, then he's dead wrong. While the conclave of Cardinals prays over their decision, nobody and no church teaching stresses that God decides who fills the papacy.
Spaeking of Wellstone, I am just back from day two of Camp Wellstone at USC. Very worthwhile. I recommend it to everyone. Email me if you have any questions.
To be honest, I didn't dislike this pope any more or less than the last one, or any more or less than I probably will the next one.
The institution is the problem. The Pope is just a figurehead (or, if you like, a centerpiece)...
Yes, well...
Religion as source of personal meaning, inspiration and strength seems to me a good thing (if you can't find meaning thru daily existence). Human history is ten thousand years of believing in things; we all seem to *need* belief.
But to state my own belief: religion as a foundation of gov't policy just plain sucks. Go secular humanism!
Bottom line is that JP had nothing but contempt for women and gays.
The next one is going to be way worse. He made 114 of 117 cardinals, and he wouldn't give a red hat to anyone not a right winger like him.
Also, I've always loved that whole thing about being "excommunicated:" and "banned from taking communion."
Errrr - how are they going to stop you?
Do they have church police standing at the communion rail?
PUH-leese. Also dumb was sending someone to hell for eating meat on Friday! How did that HURT anybody?
there are many liberals within the Cathoic Church.
Hans Kung?
Let's not forget that many of us real Christians believe that the Roman Church is the Whore of Babylon.
Gen. JC Christian, patriot
As opposed to the fundie Falwell/Dobson/Robertson type of Christianity which is the MADAM!
pseudonymous in nc,
Thank you for bringing up Lourdes. I am a highly lapsed survivor of 13 years of Catholic education - which is probably why I took a train to Lourdes in the first place - but it is as perfect example of the collision of religion and commerce as I have ever seen.
One thing to add to the discussion: I never set foot in a church except when I am visiting my mother and I have nothing but contempt for the church hierarchy, the pedophilia scandals, the treatment of women, the position on birth control, etc. But there is no question that the Catholic church has the only truly Christian position on the poor and charity of any of the so-called Christian faiths. They attempted to indoctrinate me with many beliefs, most of which didn't take, but one which did was the idea that we owed it to those less fortunate to try to help. After working for several years with a born-again who used to argue that because the Bible said the poor will always be with you that meant you shouldn't do anything to help them, I ended up with a belated sense of respect for at least that piece of the doctrine. At our high school we used to get credit for tutoring poor kids and and making food baskets for families was a big deal. On balance, I'm willing to say that made up for Pagan Babies.
...the fact that yes, indeed, a dead pope is a big deal.
Um, aren't there more dead Popes than there are live ones?
In that case, this must be HUGE!
"John Paul II was an honorable, righteous, caring non-hypocrite spokesman for human life. I understand that, even knowing he represented an archaic, repressive religion that politically has done more harm than good."
Oh yeah - he just thought women were inferior and gays subhuman and "evil."
BTW, for me, the best part of the Dead Pope coverage came today on a local newsradio station. The anchor was interviewing a local Catholic bigwig and asked what the Pope would be most remembered for. The bigwig made a comment about "the Pope's teachings." The anchorman than asked "Specifically, which ones?" The bigwig sputtered and stammered and bluffed his way though his answer...
"Even Al Jazeera's kissing his ass.
Hey. This sounds like Pat Buchanan.
At the same time, John Paul was no friend of Western lifestyles, warning against rampant consumerism and casual sex.
SWR "
And what the hell - he was on the same page with them when it comes to women and gay people!
The Catholic Church is the same as it ever was --
Great sets, fabulous costumes, the music is beautiful
the book needs work.
I should like to reccomend to all Escatonians Concerning the Eccentricities of Cardinal Pirelli by Ronald Firbank.
It's the definitive statement on Catholicism.
Some of us secretaries and document clerks from my law firm went out to lunch on Friday. The group was all women and mostly Catholic, some fairly liberal, some more conservative.
The topic turned to the Detroit archdiocese's announced school closings. The consensus was that the archdiocese is run by a bunch of clueless old men with more concern for money than spirituality. It was ripped for spending millions to push the anti-gay marriage amendment while neglecting people's real needs. And there was impatient wondering abou when the Church would wise up and ordain women and married men.
Papal conclaves are like Supreme Court justices - what plays out is often different from what anyone expects. Of the 4 popes elected in my lifetime, 3 have been surprises - John XXIII, John Paul I and John Paul II. Catholics believe that while the Holy Spirit guides papal selections, there's no predicting how the Holy Spirit thinks.
Bush ordering that flags fly half-staff for the pope is both totally inappropriate and totally hypocritical, given his blowing offf of the pope's entreaties regarding Karla Fay Tucker and the Iraq war. Hopefully it'll backfire just as badly as his Terri Schiavo stunt.
April Dancer:
Back in college I worked with someone who actually knew a "pagan baby." He was from an Asian country; can't recall which one after so long. Anyway, the organizations the Church funded fed and clothed him, and paid for a good education. So as silly as it sounds now, apparently that money we collected actually did some good.
Sister of ye:
Just curious --
Did the Asian "pagan baby" remain "pagan" or did he convert to Roman Catholicism after all that "Church funded" clothing and feeding and [good] education?
Also, just what constituted a "pagan baby" in the Roman Catholic context?
Just what was it, specifically, that made the baby "pagan" in the eyes of the Church?
I hope that it is still ok to tell the truth. This man used the power of his office to oppose education about birth control and safe sex even in Asian and African countries where Aids has reached epidemic proportions. It is estimated that as a result of the Aids crisis there are 11 million orphans in Sub-Saharan Africa who "live at the mercy of others." Upholding outmoded religious dogma was more important to this man than the lives of millions of people. I have a hard time with all the blather about what a great humanitarian he was. Sorry he suffered so much and all that.
04/01/05 AP: National Guard relaxes recruiting standards
Under a policy approved this week, the guard will accept recruits with at least a ninth-grade education, as long as they get a satisfactory score on a vocational aptitude test and obtain a GED within three years of signing up.
Well, there goes the whelp and malagagagada's last refuge.
Watching CNN in the Midlands and Midnight. Apparently, and who knew, "this pope" -- as they insist on saying -- was fallible, unlike Reagan. They are talking about "mixed legacy," questioning JP2's stance on birth control, AIDS, and role of women.
Laugh of the evening was when Paula Zahn signed off and someone, can't remember who, asked for her thoughts. Undiluted CW, as through you couldn't have guessed.
Jerry:
It's always "okay" -- indeed even preferable -- to tell the truth.
Some have gone so far as to suggest that knowing the truth will set you free.
But that depends upon one's definition of what constitutes the "truth."
Still, others suggest that "the truth must out."
The problem arises with one's capacity to encounter the truth -- and to accept not only the truth in terms of the factual and critical analyses -- but in terms of one's willingness to accept the truth and deal with its consequences in a way that is both responsible and compassionate.
Still, the big questions remain:
Will the Roman Catholic Church, in the near future, change its position on the following:
Women and contraception and the right to make a choice vis-a-vis reproductive rights;
Welcoming gays and lesbians as an integral part of the human family, including the right to marry and adopt children;
Willingness to endorse (and contribute to) the distribution of condoms and other effective methods of birth control to developing countries to counter poverty and over population;
Agree to join with the United Nations and the world community to provide the drugs known to stop the spread of HIV/AIDS to Africa, Southeast Asia, and wherever such treatment is needed?
Willingness to allow women to enter the seminary and participate fully in the priesthood;
Willingness allow priests to marry and thus lead healthy lives in terms of sex, marriage, and the rearing of children;
Willingness to adopt a rational and non-mystical approach to science, especially in terms of stem-cell research.
Unless and until the Church is willing to emerge from the Dark Ages and join the 21st century, then it will continue to lose membership in the coming decades regardless who is chosen as the next Pope;
If the Roman Catholic church remains cemented in medieval dogma, it will continue to foster more guilt, perversion, secrecy, misogyny, homophobia, and a refusal to embrace the importance of science in the 21st century.
Care to place a bet on the outcome?
this was a strange pope, as far as i am concerned. perhaps even an evil one.
a mystery of a human being. almost as if some western intell services created him.
my hard drive files have long been eradicated, but i think i recall that he was not very interested in the lives of his parishioners in central and latin amerika...i recall that though he was purportedly an enemy of communist totalitarianism, he wasn't an opponent of christian totalitarinism.
though i don't have access to every utterance he made, i recall no stringent condemnations of the catholic, latin fascists....the fascist bastids that murdered archbishops, nuns, priests throughout the central and southern western hemisphere.
can anyone produce his denunciation of the murderers of oscar romero? the marist nuns? and all the catholic brethren at el mozote?
perhaps this spook of a pope denounced francisco franco and his portuguese buddy salazar, but i don't recall those homilies.
and of course, there was that fascisti operation gladio that was probably being run out of the vatican. i don't recall this ill pappa denouncing that bit of gangsterism either. do you?
no, speaking unkindly of the dead, this pope was a bit of a gangster. who was elevated by virtue of the strange death[assassination] of his predessor.
the worst aspect of the future leadership of this church is that it will be meaner and more allied to amerikan intell services.
we are all on for a long and nasty ride.
albertchampion:
I think you're on to something!
I like the idea of past as prologue.
We can look forward to Pope-bot in the future, just as we have done in the past.
Very perceptive of you.
But let me be clear: You can exclude me from from the various and sundry incarnations, seductions, mystifications, edicts, and mindfucks administered by Pope-bot....
Thanks to the wonders of logic and rational thought, I'm immune.
"You know, if Saddam Hussein died, we'd be treated to a whole litany of all his evil deeds. Why should we whitewash the pope, whose deeds also deserve the hard light of day?"
Trying to draw a moral equivalence between Saddam Hussein and the Pope? That's a new level of idiocy, even for this generally idiotic site.
Speaking of which, are the regulars here still longing for the return of their boy Saddam back to power in Iraq?
"Zogby Poll: Americans Not in Favor of Starving Terri Schiavo"
http://www.lifenews.com/bio891.html
"atrios": wanker of the day.
I had CNN on in the background while I painted the living room (it looks nice, thanks!), and found it not too bad. MSNBC was appalling. You can tell, though, when someone is whispering "fill time! vamp! film's not ready yet!" in Paula Zahn's ear 'cause that's when she utters seamless swaths of the most saccharine glurge imaginable. Jeez. I did hear one dictum from the tube as I painted that sounded fairly intelligent, if I can remember it right. . . "This pope's goal wasn't to make people agree with the church or disagree with the church, it was to make sure people knew what the church's teachings are."
If you'd like to read a fairly entertaining novel that gives a good description of a modern papal election from a liberal American Catholic point of view (in between a murder plot to be averted, two love stories to be wrapped up, and lots of schtick by the author and his recurring characters) check out White Smoke by Andrew Greeley. It's pretty good if you don't mind a good serving of candy corn with your information and entertainment.
"Zogby Poll: Americans Not in Favor of Starving Terri Schiavo" -hat
Hmm. I read their story, (which contained such baffling prose as: "Another Zogby question his directly on Terri's circumstances."), but they fail to provide all the questions and numbers- just snippets to support their contentions. Given that these results are far different from every single other recent poll on this issue (and how does this one poll qualify Atrios for Wanker of the Day anyway?), I'd like to see *all* the data. Can you provide a link to the poll itself, not their interpretation of a few of its questions? I've looked around but can't find it. It seems somewhat at odds with this Zogby quote:
Schiavo's fate has made world headlines and dominated news coverage in the United States for three weeks.
In a country bitterly divided between Republican "red states" and Democratic "blue states," many citizens seemed angry with both parties and have made up their own minds, pollster John Zogby said.
Republicans who uphold principles of limited government, states' rights and the sanctity of the marital bond were upset their leaders had become involved. Democrats seemed upset that their leaders had mostly stayed silent on the issue.
"America has united on this under the banner of 'a pox on both your houses.' This is an intensely personal issue and people of all political stripes were repulsed at the idea of the government getting involved," Zogby said.
The timing I choose to piss all over a dead man's grave is anytime I feel like it, especially if that person has presided over the sexual molestation and rape of countless (ten of?) thousands of innocents during his reign alone.
Further, if it's OK for the tv chickenheads to come out and cluck about what a great man the Pope was, then it's ok for me to talk about what a horrific man the Pope was. I actually don't have an informed comment on the Pope's godliness or vileness, but I'm leaning towards vileness, and if people lay out the praise mats, then I should have the option of laying out the rip mats.
Finally, just because the pope was sort of against, kind of, the Iraq War, does not mean he's the end all be all. The Bush/Cato Institute was generally against the Iraq War too, and they're doing everything they can to get rid of social security. Should we exalt the Bush/Cato Institute when it finally goes the way of the dingo?
It's lazy faith. Genuine religious faith calls for a personal journey of exploration, not a dictat from Rome.
SWR | Email | Homepage | 04.02.05 - 8:46 pm | #
Your frickin lazy relativist.
But I am glad your dealin with the frustration problems.
Also if the democracts only care about abortion and gay rights.
What the heck happens to: social justice, welfare, getting rid of the death penalty, fighting racism and getting the hell out of this so called war on terror?
Two trick issues are not going to win elections.
I don't really care about the Pope's death because I'm not a Catholic. Like any fallibe human being he did some good and some bad. His death should be an occasion for remembering the good. I can't understand the vitriol against him by some posters here though. What do you get out of it?
albertchampion:
"can anyone produce his denunciation of the murderers of oscar romero? the marist nuns? and all the catholic brethren at el mozote?"
http://www.victorshepherd.on.ca/...ar%
20Romero.htm
Quote:
In 1983 Pope John Paul II prayed at Romero’s grave, and then appointed as national archbishop the only Salvadoran bishop to attend Romero’s funeral. The message was plain. The pope had given his imprimatur to all that Romero had exemplified.
Richard,
I don't suppose you were awake the day that the Pope came down on the bishops and priests who were attempting to tell Catholics that voting for Kerry was a mortal sin? Or the day that the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops issued a statement explicitly saying that an informed conscience could lead to a vote for either Bush or Kerry, thereby implying that a vote for Kerry was not a mortal sin?
Or have you just conveniently forgotten that in your need to work out your obvious personal anger with the Catholic Church?
By the way, no, Catholics don't believe the Pope is chosen by God, and anyone who thinks papal infallibility means the pope can't sin needs to go back to Catholicism 101.
This Pope was never a friend to gay people.
When he came into power he set a different course for the Catholic Church's policy on homosexuality, which had begun to take a more tolerant tone during the 70's.
The first statement from the Vatican under his guidance came in October of 1986 in a letter to Bishops of the Catholic Church. In a nutshell, it said that even if homosexuality is genetic it is still an "objective disorder"; even if it is not a sin, it is still evil:
“Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder. Therefore special concern and pastoral attention should be directed to those who have this condition, lest they be led to believe that the living out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not.”
His second statement came in 1992, in response to new gay rights legislations being drawn up in the U.S. He basically said that when the rights of homosexuals are protected, family and society are threatened.
“Recently, legislation had been proposed in some American states which would make discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation illegal. ...Such initiatives, even where they seem more directed toward support of basic civil rights than condonement of homosexual activity or a homosexual lifestyle, may in fact have a negative impact on the family and society... Even when the practice of homosexuality may seriously threaten the lives and well-being of a large number of people, its advocates remain undeterred and refuse to consider the magnitude of the risks involved.”
His third major statement came most recently, in an excerpt from his book, Memory and Identity which was summarized as:
Homosexual marriages are part of "a new ideology of evil" that is insidiously threatening society.
We can all hope that in his passing the Catholic church will seek a path toward enlightenment, but in light of the more fundamentalist grasp on religion in the world today, it's hard to be optimistic.
You know what would be really great? If the Pope was now being judged by the spirits of a Polynesian sex/cargo cult. Imagine him getting sent to Pacific Island hell for not having eaten enough long pig (island slang for human flesh for the social losers out there).
That would be just too cool.
What a wild and crazy blog string, and provocative of at least 3 thoughts to this reader:
1) Not having paid a lot of attention to either Catholicism or the papacy (being from the South originally, I like others was taught to pretty much ignore them as ritualistic heathen), I now want to know more about the abrupt passing of John Paul I -- was he indeed so radical that the papal bureaucracy put him under?
2) I'm struck by the absence of women in this whole process. In a day that most of us in the West finally think of women as equal players in this life, here's a major institution, getting lots of attention, and without one (even one) woman playing a role in the process.
3) John Paul II was no friend (or kind shepherd) to gay people. Say all the nice things you want about him, but the fact remains that he uttered some pretty contemptible things about gay humans and, for that, he gets no sympathy or honor from me.
Thanks for the interesting reading here.
I guess I am turning into Bill Maher in that the older I get and the more I think about it, religion is adsurd.
I believe in God, a higher power and Christ but the whole tradition, religion thing is so bastardized that I sometimes feel that people who believe all the hype are morons. (Like people I know who take the bible word for word in spite of evidence to the contrary.)
Don't get me wrong, I think Catholicism is a very beautiful religion.
Having said that, I think that the Pope, although a good man, is not Holy. He's not a Saint. He's an infallable man chosen by other men to run a religion. That in itself is messed up.
Catholics believe that there must be a middle man to get to God. We have to ask forgiveness through a priest, get forgivness through a priest and a priest gives us our punishment. These rules were made by man not God and I sometimes wonder why, in the 21st century, we are still following them.
In addition, when can we get past the women are crap and can't be priests or minister thing?? That is so 900 A.D.!
Hey reader,
Is this the first time here???
I hope you check back everyday. Always something new. And tell your friends!
Thank you Camille. As they say on the radio: long-time listener but first-time caller. I've lurked here for 6-8 months, just enjoying the read. Love Atrios and this community -- you all are as beautifully and appropriately "warped" in your thinking as me.
And I do check in every day. Eschaton is on my fav list. Guess I haven't posted because I thought you had to register or something.
1) Not having paid a lot of attention to either Catholicism or the papacy (being from the South originally, I like others was taught to pretty much ignore them as ritualistic heathen), I now want to know more about the abrupt passing of John Paul I -- was he indeed so radical that the papal bureaucracy put him under?
Put the tin foil hat down and move away. JP 1 was an old man, he was also more talker than a doer. He wasn't called the dither for nothing.
2) I'm struck by the absence of women in this whole process. In a day that most of us in the West finally think of women as equal players in this life, here's a major institution, getting lots of attention, and without one (even one) woman playing a role in the process.
Take it you have never heard of nuns, then? or the fact that female orders make up a very powerful faction in catholicism.
3) John Paul II was no friend (or kind shepherd) to gay people. Say all the nice things you want about him, but the fact remains that he uttered some pretty contemptible things about gay humans and, for that, he gets no sympathy or honor from me.
Can't really argue with you there but I think his attitude was more against homosexuality then a personal attitude against homosexual peoples.
And Camille, I too am more like Maher everyday. I don't disdain religion (I've seen it bring a lot of comfort to people in trying times), but I don't think it's for me. Like others, I've been present at the deaths of loved ones and did not feel in my head or heart that they were floating off to some other defined place -- just leaving, period. As heartbreaking as that is during the moment of passing, it makes sense to me. So I guess I believe in the "dust to dust" part, after all, huh?
The comment about God electing the Pope was so dim that I think its maker was copping an attitude. Pretending to be an even dimmer bulb than he needed to be. God doesn't direct human actions. Free Will and all that.
Even Al Jazeera's kissing his ass.
Hey. This sounds like Pat Buchanan.
At the same time, John Paul was no friend of Western lifestyles, warning against rampant consumerism and casual sex.
SWR "
And what the hell - he was on the same page with them when it comes to women and gay people!
Terry C | Email | Homepage | 04.02.05 - 11:58 pm |
Huh? what is that supposed to mean?
lama: as I said in my original post, those were just the thoughts I'm left with on watching the current pageant play out. 1) I don't think it's "tin foil" to ask simply if there's more to JPI's death than the PR would have us believe. And it's something I'll try to learn more about. 2) Re: the nuns, of course, I see that they play a role -- but it seems to me to be a very secondary role. I'll try to learn more about that too. 3) I stand by my feeling that John Paul II was no friend to gay people, and it doesn't matter to me what his motivation was -- he said it and gay people will have to live with it.
BTW, if you're a loyal Catholic, please don't take any of this as a criticism of your personal choice. I intend none.
BTW, if you're a loyal Catholic, please don't take any of this as a criticism of your personal choice. I intend none.
Reader | Email | Homepage | 04.03.05 - 9:26 am |
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. It's just I find the whole JP1 fixation to be rather baseless. To be honest I wish I did have strong faith but I don't. I just find all religions to be rather interesting.
But on the Nuns, some of them in my experiences have been the most powerful mamas I have ever seen and with whom no bishop or cardinal would ver argue with. They can also scare the heck out of little children.
BTW, if you're a loyal Catholic, please don't take any of this as a criticism of your personal choice. I intend none.
Reader | Email | Homepage | 04.03.05 - 9:26 am |
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. It's just I find the whole JP1 fixation to be rather baseless. To be honest I wish I did have strong faith but I don't. I just find all religions to be rather interesting.
But on the Nuns, some of them in my experiences have been the most powerful mamas I have ever seen and with whom no bishop or cardinal would ver argue with. They can also scare the heck out of little children.
sorry, have a bloody mac
lama,
Nuns are great, but in the big scheme of things, they have no power within the church. Just because they scare kids doesn't mean that they wield any real power. They don't.
Nuns are great, but in the big scheme of things, they have no power within the church. Just because they scare kids doesn't mean that they wield any real power. They don't.
Camille | Email | Homepage | 04.03.05 - 9:50 am |
I don't know about that as many sit on advisory panels and consultative bodies. They also have considerable autonomy and power in the lay work that they do. But on the scaring children, that is just down to childhood trauma.
The Catholic Church is the biggest institution on earth, and it is hard to be all things in all places. John Paul was the right Pope for the right time to a degree in 1978 through the 80's.
On the Good Side- The Cold War was the single greatest danger to humanity-nuclear extinction trumps everything else. The fear in the 70' 7 80's was palpable and real. John Paul was instrumental in ending that danger. There is nothing happening today that can compete with that danger.
Also John Paul took the Papacy out into the sunshine, at least in appearance.
On the Bad Side- He sat for 20 years on the serious corruption within the institutional Church. Remember the Vatican Banking Crisis was there when he started; the pedophile scandal is part of this problem too. Because the solution to the pedophile problem is transparent accounting and records-John Paul looked open but he encouraged Secret Societies and closed records.
The Schism within the Church-The Catholic Church particularly in the US is split in half, there is a silent war going on between pro and anti Vatican II. John Paul muddied the waters with his "mystic" inspired dictates.
AIDS and Poverty due to Overpopulation-self evident.
John Paul was a lot like Reagan-great at the inspirational, PR, public speech and media related stuff. But frankly not great as intellectuals and hands on administrators, and when an institution is dying of corruption like the Catholic Church is warm fuzzies are not enough. The next Pope has a lot of work cut out for him, because John Paul has left him a Church that is a total institutional mess, and closer to bankruptcy than you might think.
Is anyone else as sick of "All Pope All The Time" ?
I know it's only starting but I'm ready to gag already.
This guy was a human being but he's being portrayed as someone with no flaws whatsoever.
Hello? The guy thought women were inferior and gay people were evil. Those are pretty unhealthy sentiments.
Look, Atrios, I understand that you have few personal relationships with people who are religious, but it may interest you to know that JP2 was leader of a religion of which ONE SIXTH of the world is a member.
24 hour coverage of his death is hardly inappropriate or "absurd".
You really need to grow out of your irrational knee-jerk dismissal of all things religious.
And what the hell - he was on the same page with them when it comes to women and gay people!
Terry C | Email | Homepage | 04.02.05 - 11:58 pm |
Huh? what is that supposed to mean?
lama
The Arabs think women are inferior and gays are evil.
So did JP II.
Well, sorry - I'm NOT inferior to anyone!
" I can't understand the vitriol against him by some posters here though. What do you get out of it?
australian reader "
What does the media "get out of" portraying this man as Perfection Itself?
Since when is the truth "vitriol"????
The Arabs think women are inferior and gays are evil.
Terry C | Email | Homepage | 04.03.05 - 10:53 am |
So all arabs think that?
Tell that to people like Nawal El Saadawi. What a silly and ignorant comment to make.
Generalisms like that are not only stupid but dangerous.
Atrios wrote: "...and, oy, I know that when a man dies it's not the time to piss all over him and his supporters unless his last name is Wellstone..."
Or Reagan, right? Or is your memory that short?
For more on the life of the Pope
Have you noticed that the wingnuts seem to have a common talking point about the pope - they are comparing him with Ronald Reagan - courage to speak out in spite of popular opinion, etc. I suspect that this is a Rovian ploy to have their listeners extend the comparison to the Shrub. If their listeners don't do it, watch for the wingnuts to make the comparison themselves.
Barry Walden wrote:
Have you noticed that the wingnuts seem to have a common talking point about the pope - they are comparing him with Ronald Reagan
It's worse than that. Not only are they comparing JP2 to Reagan, they are lying about JP2 in the process in order to make him more palatable to rightwingers.
I heard Cap Weinburger explain that although JP2 told Reagan that he was against the arms build up against the Soviets, Cap nevertheless was sure that JP2 was in favor of it. (I would not be surprised if someone is on Faux News right now explaining how JP2 was really in favor of the death penalty.)
The rightwingers are trying to scrub off JP2's progressive edges (as are, interestingly enough, many anti-papist progressives).
pseudonymous in nc:
Actually, in the interregnum, they skip blessings for the pope, or at least they did in the Mass that I attended.
Very interesting thread... and to some degree, an alarming one. I can't really argue, and in fact, agree with those condemning the actions and rhetoric of John Paul II that have worked to dehumanize most sectors of the human population, nor with the characterization of the Vatican as a monarchy. I worry about the "anti-papist" arguments that I read, not because of the criticism of people and institutions that they embody, because some of the rhetoric seems to channel older ideas that Catholics (and others) cannot be "people of reason." American (and British) anti-Catholicism has a distinguished pedigree that extends much further back than Pius's assistance to Hitler (Church historical hypocrisy and intolerance as probable source of said prejudice duly noted).
I will quibble with those who attempt to equate (but not those who connect) the Vatican with the entire church... hell, given the variation of Catholicism throughout the world, and throughout time, sometimes the the term "catholicisms" seems more appropriate. Such an equation between the bureaucracy and the rest of the church doesn't account for the perhaps unintended pluralism of church theologies, liturgies, and moral teachings. For example, altar girls, I've recently read, are prohibited by the papacy, yet I've encountered them in churches in the United States, Mexico and the Philippines. Where does liturgical dance fit in? Numerous churches in Africa and indigenous areas of Latin America use it. I've heard several homilies that could have been excerpted from Friedrich Engels' "Conditions of the English Working-Class," heard God referred to as She, and worked with self-described Catholic anarchists... Yet, at the same time, I've talked to people who have been shunned by their fellow Catholic for being gay, divorced, or just simply not of the "proper moral caliber."
I just figure it's dangerous to rest on a monolithic characterization of any single institution, especially resting on facile historical grounds. Who would think that formal papal infallibility, for example, is a modern construction? (Actually there are excellent arguments that "absolutist monarchies" are a modern phenomenon just as much as they are "medieval...")... and when was Mary's virginity codified? Debates about the exercise of church authority have moved back and forth over the centuries... the argument that laypersons should exercise more authority in the church is not a new one, though the (recent) church abuse scandals give the idea more urgency. Hopefully, this is an idea that will be argued for, and adopted, by all those who claim to be Catholics.
On the topic of modernity, those excoriating religious cultures for the perpetuation of "medieval" or "pre-modern" ideas should, of course, keep up the fight for equality. "Modernity," per se, however, is not a panacea for social equality - modern economic systems and ideas of governance, on both the left and right have eroded the basic living conditions for tens of millions of people. Hell, the form of evangelical Christianity that we see in the United States had its genesis mainly in the twentieth century (The precepts of many of the adherents that I have met rest on individualistic grounds, I might add). As always, it seems that the motivation and ability to share and debate our viewpoints seems the best way to discuss and implement ideas to improve equality and life for us all.
Oh yeah, and the alleged reasons to exclude women from the priesthood are bullshit (among other pressing issues of [in]equality)... Do all priests need to wear beards, get circumcised, be fishermen?
El-P
Funny Pope photo:
http://tinyurl.com/563v2
God shmod.
There are few people of whom it may be said that millions are better off because of that person's life. The multitudes the world-over who weep should take comfort knowing that John Paul II is one of those few. I speak, of course, of John Paul's role in bringing down Soviet tyranny.
I remember the days of Solidarity and the rebellions all over Eastern Europe. The Pope's actions and timing always seemed like they were calculated to maximize problems for the commie tyrants. They, in fact, were. Fellow Poles believe his unflagging support for the banned Solidarity trade union while the communists tried to crush it was a potent force that kept the movement alive. In the book, Reagan's War: The Epic Story of His Forty Year Struggle and Final Triumph Over Communism, John Paul's conspiring with Reagan to destabilize Eastern Europe's tyrannies is noted.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obido...3573988-
2290539
Earlier, John Paul was brave against Nazi barbarity. Later, he strongly opposed the Iraq war. Over at Antiwar.com, Justin Raimondo named Pope John Paul II "Man of the year" for 2003:
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?a...?
articleid=1316
My admiration for Pope John Paul II has nothing to do with my personal religious faith because I have none. On religious matters, I have only questions and no answers.
The Arabs think women are inferior and gays are evil.
Terry C | Email | Homepage | 04.03.05 - 10:53 am |
So all arabs think that?
Tell that to people like Nawal El Saadawi. What a silly and ignorant comment to make.
Generalisms like that are not only stupid but dangerous.
lama
Okay - Arab fundies.
Pardon me for not spelling everything out that I meant - I thought you only had to do that with freepers!
"Look, Atrios, I understand that you have few personal relationships with people who are religious, but it may interest you to know that JP2 was leader of a religion of which ONE SIXTH of the world is a member.
24 hour coverage of his death is hardly inappropriate or "absurd".
You really need to grow out of your irrational knee-jerk dismissal of all things religious.
Disputo"
Excuse me, but if you want to listen to 24/7 worship of JP, why don't you go to a religious site?
The people on this board have the right to be as critical and dismissive of religion as they wish!
Or Reagan, right? Or is your memory that short?
Borat
Oh, screw Saint Ronald of the Monster Deficit!
Terry C wrote:
The people on this board have the right to be as critical and dismissive of religion as they wish!
Absolutely correct.
The people on this board also have the right to take those who are critical and dismissive of religion to task for their ignorance and bigotry.
Disputo:
To each his or her intellectual own, of course, but I would argue that those who are critical and/or dismissive of religion are not engaging in such discourse on the flimsy foundations of ignorance and bigotry, as you suggest.
Indeed, many of the more provocative posts are less dismissive than they are critical of religion and its consequences in people's lives and on the global community, and a significaant number of this board's contributors produce compelling evidence from the historical record which is tempered with incisive interpretation and analysis.
Hurling hyperbolic cliches like "ignorance and bigotry" at those with whom you disagree not only smacks of ad hominum but serves to exposes the weakness and impotence of your own position.
Take your opponents to task, by all means. But do try to be more original and less turgid as you go about work.
If you are determined to be a scold, you might consider exploring a more effective approach.
Perhaps you need to consider the qualitataive difference between being critical and dismissive of religion and still having respect for those individuals on this board and beyond who retain religious beliefs and continue to derive comfort from them.
Okay - Arab fundies.
Pardon me for not spelling everything out that I meant - I thought you only had to do that with freepers!
Terry C | Email | Homepage | 04.03.05 - 9:11 pm | #
Firstly you remarks were not clear and could be construed as being rather idiotic.
But your choice of the phrase arab fundie is still...a new one on me.
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