I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
The smartest guys in the room all have their pants around their ankles.
>another shameful moment in our press history - first the business press
I think shamefullness maps more to a continuum for the business press, rather than any particular series of moments.
I wouldn't even presume the press understands suppy / demand. They just like graphs.
i am more lookig forward to the sequel "The Cutest Guys in the Cell"
Highlights from my Birthday Party:
http://tomdelay.blogspot.com/
--
I HATE them, too. If reporters would dig down and tell the whole stinking story.... if films would quit worrying about hurting someone's feelings - take a page out of Michael Moore's book
- we would hear more about the nefarious goings on from these creeps. Damn it!
"When Enron was fucking over California, the press was extraordinarily dismissive of any suggestions that the companies were gaming the system"
Seems we have our first indictment against the MSM for not carrying out their fudicary duties as written in the Constitution.
regards
.
EPA Cancels Controversial Pesticide Study
By JOHN HEILPRIN, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON - The Environmental Protection Agency on Friday canceled a controversial study using children to measure the effect of pesticides after Democrats said they would block Senate confirmation of the agency's new head. Stephen Johnson, as EPA's acting administrator, ordered an end to the planned study, a reversal from the agency's position just a day earlier when it said it would await the advice of outside scientific experts.
see, we still can find uses for kenny-boy et al
focus, good one! Let's hope it comes to pass.
I am a firefox user and your adds, which occiasionally load over the whole page, obsuring it, now do so every time.
"When Enron was fucking over California, the press was extraordinarily dismissive of any suggestions that the companies were gaming the system"
Seems we have our first indictment against the MSM for not carrying out their fudicary duties as written in the Constitution.
regards
.
Moad-Dib
An additional double-dipper list - press whores, uh, pardon my level of discourse - journalists who sucked the sugar tit of both the Bush administration and Enron. A fair press because they're paid to be.
I'm listening to CSPAN and the Constitution Restitution convention or some shit. They seem to be making up the consitution as they go along. They are really pissed at the judiciary.
I am a firm beleiver in a 'corporate death penalty.'
The theofascists apparently (according to a threa a few back) that the dath penalty is appropriate for children.
Much of the support for it hinges on claims that the death penalty provides a certain measure disincentive for murderous crimes.
If so, let's apply it to Corporate officers whose coorporations mortlly injure or kill people.
And to the corporations themselves, by means of lethal dispropriation, and selling off all the assets--ALL THE ASSETS--upon the finding of fault in any corporate action that results in death or mrtal injury to a person...
Sort of the Robotic Code's Prime Directive: Don't fuck up people, and if you do...you're scrap...just sayin...
.
Wouldn't you like to see the two guys who were recorded laughing about how they were fucking over old ladies in CA thier first night in General Population in Cal State Penetentiary.
"Shit they got santorum all over my orange jumpsuit!"
I also was (and am still) amazed at the lack of republican accountability for setting up a "deregulated" market that was so easily gamed. I'll have to see this film; to this day it seems to me that the great majority of the overcharges to California was the result of behavior that was perfectly within the rules Pete Wilson & Co. set up. And they walked away blameless while Gray Davis got the boot. As a great pundit used to write, the scandal is often not was illegal, but what was legal.
Over at AmericaBlog, rightwingers are quoting Stalin and saying that Justice Kennedy ought to be "done away with." Good times.
If corporate officers are not allowed to mislead, defraud, game the system, rip off old ladies and orphans, loot pension funds, and remain completely unaccountable, our economic system is doomed.
It is only by allowing predators to roam free that we can enjoys the fruits of capitalism in all its glory.
And the press will glorify these guys while helping to punt Grandma Millie to the curb.
I think it's true that quite a bit was technically legal, but the real scandal is actually the political one - FERC had the power to stop this right away and Kenny Boy's appointee wouldn't do it.
What Enron?
Americans have a public attention span of about two seconds. So much has happened since Enron. All the wingnuts need to do is to find someone who is dying or to make up a story about a Democratic politician and nobody talks about other things.
Martha Steward was put to jail as part of this plot. She's now the public face of all this stuff and she's a Democrat! So there.
"They just like graphs."
Yes, but they don't understand them.
"What Enron?"
more and more Californians are waking up to the fact that yes, we was screwed by them.
"If corporate officers are not allowed to mislead, defraud, game the system, rip off old ladies and orphans, loot pension funds, and remain completely unaccountable, our economic system is doomed."
Naysayer. Nattering nabob. The great capitalist system worked perfectly in cases like Enron.
Not that anyone cares, but this is my first post from my new computer. Retired the old first-generation IMAC after fishing a monitor out of the dumpster at work and buying a used G4 and a OSX off ebay. True it wasn't Enron thinking, but a $210 investment that has me only four to five years behind cutting edge computing.
I might even register with holoscan.
markets get gamed because they are designed to be gamed...
it's not a matter of unintended cosequences...
there's no such thing as an 'honest' corporation...never was, never will be, without draconian regulation...
duh.
.
When are Arnold's ties to Enron going to be publicized?
When are Arnold's ties to Enron going to be publicized?
What are his ties to Enron? Did he run on a deregulation platform?
stencil,
I congratulate you on your ingenious hack, and would like to extend a fond welcome of your new box to the internets.
When are Arnold's ties to Enron going to be publicized?
Seebach,
I think you just did.
...thought, I admit, reading the Yahoo stock boards as the stock plunged provided me with endless hours of entertainment. Good times.
Ah, schadenfreude, that dish best served with a fine Pilsner.
Ah-nold ran on a "I'm not a girly man" platform. Seriously, his entire campaign was content-free; it was like watching U2 on a publicity tour.
markets get gamed because they are designed to be gamed...
it's not a matter of unintended cosequences...
there's no such thing as an 'honest' corporation...never was, never will be, without draconian regulation...
duh.
.
WoodyGsGuitar/Happy Desperado
so true i had to see it again.
The only place where the Enron fiasco is being litigated is Snohomish P.U.D.'s claim that it does not owe Enron's bankrupt corpse money (the PUD bought Enron power, but has refused to pay because of what they call the criminal behavior of Enron).
The PUD is claiming over 1500 criminal conversations between various energy traders uncovered so far.
"markets get gamed because they are designed to be gamed...
it's not a matter of unintended cosequences...
there's no such thing as an 'honest' corporation...never was, never will be, without draconian regulation...
duh."
You really have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, do you?
Well just keep repeating Atrios' talking points like the trained seal you are.
Pardon so much quote, but, at DU -
God dammit, God dammit, God dammit
Top story on the Times website:
U.S. Seeks Access to Bank Records to Deter Terror
By ERIC LICHTBLAU
Published: April 10, 2005
WASHINGTON, April 9 - The Bush administration is developing a plan to give the government access to possibly hundreds of millions of international banking records in an effort to trace and deter terrorist financing, even as many bankers say they already feel besieged by government antiterrorism rules that they consider overly burdensome.
The initiative, as conceived by a working group within the Treasury Department, would vastly expand the government's database of financial transactions by gaining access to logs of international wire transfers into and out of American banks. Such overseas transactions were used by the Sept. 11 hijackers to wire more than $130,000, officials said, and are still believed to be vulnerable to terrorist financiers.
Government officials said in interviews that the effort, which grew out of a brief, little-noticed provision in the intelligence reform bill passed by Congress in December, would give them the tools to track leads on specific suspects and, more broadly, to analyze patterns in terrorist financing and other financial crimes. They said they were mindful of privacy concerns that such a system is likely to provoke and wanted to include safeguards to prevent misuse of what would amount to an enormous cache of financial records.
...more...
Bill Clinton tried to do this in 1996, along with many other important anti-terror actions, with his omnibus terrorism bill. Phil Gramm, head of the Banking Committee, killed the idea and termed it 'totalitarian.' In truth, Gramm killed the bill on behalf of one of his Texas constituents. You might have heard of them: 'Enron' was their name. Seems the Enron boys were using the same offshore financial loopholes to launder their stolen money that terrorists use to route their cash.
Phil Gramm, Enron and 1996...one of the many reasons why, had Clinton been listened to, there probably would still be two huge towers looming over New York City.
--------------
Everything need not necessarily change after any September.
-
The Enron scandal was revealed too soon for the press. They were still in the first stages of explaining why privatization was such a great idea, and they were not ready for the second stage when things start falling apart. So they didn't grasp what they saw.
This would be my charitable interpretation which doesn't really wash because there should be journalists trained in economics out there, too, and so on. But it's a nice day here.
In really important news: my mom has visited my blog! Help!
What are his ties to Enron? Did he run on a deregulation platform?
Ahnold and Kenny Boy were buds, and Ahnold was involved in a meeting or meetings with energy speculators and Lay, before or during the gameing of the system.
I remember that during the recall election one of the issues was a pending lawsuit to attempt to extract some of the ill gotten cash from Enron. If Davis was retained, the lawsuit was likely to have been pursued, If Arnold won, the lawsuit was likely to end up in the dumpster.
anyway more on that here and here
". . .idiots whose entire knowledge of economics is a basic supply/deman diagram."
i took econ 101 years and years ago, and it was really easy to get the impression from that class that economics is the study of lines on graphs.
In really important news: my mom has visited my blog! Help!
,
E,
after I stop laughing, what can I do?
Enron was just the trial run for Halliburton.
Atrios - I respect your education, but my knowledge of Macro/Micro economics expired when I completed the courses years ago... So explain why a basic supply & demand model isn't appropriate? And how hard caps can be justified in this case, when we don't do it for gas or other commodities?
Not being snarky, just genuinely curious..
In really important news: my mom has visited my blog! Help!
Reading my kids' LiveJournals is a great joy. They don't mind (they don't have to scrub stuff on my account). Frequently I've found something brilliant here, passed it on to them in E-mails, and bam! there it is again, on one of their LJs.
YMMV, however. (Your Mom May Vary.)
kent, Excessive Wanderer, nobody can do anything. I was just screaming from pure frustration. I got a twenty-page e-mail on how to improve the writing and where to get better links and how to be more polite to my commenters and how fuck and crap are not words she ever expected to read from me. And how she's very proud of me, of course.
As in politics, there are no 'unintended' consequences in the corporate cosmos.
There are unforeseen liabilities; but the possibility for liability is always already built into the costs of doing business...
Which is to say, the pursuit of bottom-line, short-term gain is so vital that any and all expedients are always acceptable, up to a certain financial limit.
There is no such thing as a "free" market. Markets always stipulate and regulate costs of entry, products on offer, and the identities of the dealers...
Show me evidence otherwise, or just shut the absolute fuck up, Another victory for Eschaton -- 3:21 pm ...better yet, save us all the trouble and eat shit and die...
.
think it's true that quite a bit was technically legal,
Actually, there were FERC-approved tariffs that prohibited gaming and those tariffs have the force of law. Also, the Federal Power Act declares "unlawful" any rate that is not "just and reasonable." Congress regulated the electricity market back in the 1930s for a reason -- to protect consumers from being gouged by monopolist providers of an essential service.
-Hecate
"And how she's very proud of me, of course."
Echidne of the snakes
At least she says she's proud of you. Mine nearly disowned me when I started my doctoral program instead of having more children (her dichotomy, not mine).
thought, I admit, reading the Yahoo stock boards as the stock plunged provided me with endless hours of entertainment. Good times.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Remember how much fun it was to watch Clear Channel stock tank. I really believed we were gonna win. Now I believe we probably did, but not by a wide enough margin.
Atrios and others, Did any of you here the NY Times reporter who wrote a book on Enron on the Majority Report last week?
Sam Seder(who usually does a pretty good job) let him get away will all sorts of shit, "It was EVERYONE's fault. Everyone was greedy."
It really pissed me off. He was also claiming that he was screaming about this. It was Such bullshit.
Anyone else hear him?
The low point was when he was pleased for a comparision of his book to a Grissom novel. I'm thinking, "What, the shitty writing or the convoluted plot?"
Eric - short simple version is that local bottlenecks in the transmission grid, combined with the gaming of the system by the energy traders, allowed power companies to establish temporary monopoly power in localized areas. Monopolies have an incentive to reduce output in order to raise the market price. If you put a price cap on, then monopolies no longer have an incentive to reduce output because they can't raise the price - so they end up producing more at a lower price.
And, this was exacerbated by the fact that the retail power companies were mandated to essentially buy at any price from the suppliers.
You really have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, do you?
Then give us a lecture, dipshit.
kent, Excessive Wanderer, nobody can do anything. I was just screaming from pure frustration. I got a twenty-page e-mail on how to improve the writing and where to get better links and how to be more polite to my commenters and how fuck and crap are not words she ever expected to read from me. And how she's very proud of me, of course.
That calls for a whole BLOCK of these >
You got lectured for "fuck" and "crap" in the same sentence???
We're very proud of you too, if that helps.
Someone once said - it was an economist but I don't remember her name - "People should learn at least enough ecomonics to guage the thickness of the wool being pulled over their eyes."
I was very proud of my parents when they discovered by blog. They pretty much managed to not critique what I do here.
"As in politics, there are no 'unintended' consequences in the corporate cosmos.
There are unforeseen liabilities; but the possibility for liability is always already built into the costs of doing business...
Which is to say, the pursuit of bottom-line, short-term gain is so vital that any and all expedients are always acceptable, up to a certain financial limit.
There is no such thing as a "free" market. Markets always stipulate and regulate costs of entry, products on offer, and the identities of the dealers...
Show me evidence otherwise, or just shut the absolute fuck up, Another victory for Eschaton -- 3:21 pm ...better yet, save us all the trouble and eat shit and die..."
Dear Fucktard,
The most significant barrier to entry for any market is generally through a process known as rent seeking behavior in which a corporation or individual effectively lobbies Congress to create a bullshit type of regulation to prevent competitors from entering the market. (just as Arthur Daniels Midland successfully lobbied the Clinton Administration to allow diesal fuel substitutes to be derived only from ethanol from corn based products, when other vegetables would have worked just fine. ADM was only doing this since they had a virtual monopoly over the market for ethanol based corn products).
Just another reason for that "smaller government" that you despise so much.
Thanks, Silleigh! And I sympathize, sallyh. My mom is ok. Mostly.
And Atrios's explanation is a good one on the energy markets. In general wingnuts tend to assume that all markets are markets with so many sellers that they can't use any market power against the buyers, whereas in reality most really important markets have relatively few sellers and lots of opportunities for colluding and using market power, which doesn't make for good outcomes for consumers in most cases.
In really important news: my mom has visited my blog! Help!
++++++++++++++++++++++
I visited my daughter's website ONCE (and in case y'all didn't get it early this a.m., she starts law school in September with enough of a package that she doesn't need private loans, ahem, not to brag or anything), and decided that there were some things this liberal mom really did not need to know about her daughter.
FERC had the power to stop this right away and Kenny Boy's appointee wouldn't do it.
Truer words were ne'er spoken. Although for the first few months of the crisis, it was Clinton's FERC chair Jim Hoecker who did nothing, and then for another few months it was Trent Lott's boy Curt Hebert who really refused to do anything and gave the remarkable bit of testimony to a Congressional hearing in San Diego: "If the markets kill Granny, then let Granny die." Hmmm, wonder where those traders got their "Grandma Millie" line? Chaney then had Hebert replaced with Enron's hand-picked chair Pat Wood and commissioner Nora Brownell. Now, Wood's resigned and is going home to Texas to run for Congress. And California looks to the Ninth Circuit this week for relief. What a wild and crazy trip it's been.
-Hecate
Just another reason for that "smaller government" that you despise so much.
Fed's about 40% bigger than 2001. Care to comment, dipshit?
"Eric - short simple version is that local bottlenecks in the transmission grid, combined with the gaming of the system by the energy traders, allowed power companies to establish temporary monopoly power in localized areas. Monopolies have an incentive to reduce output in order to raise the market price. If you put a price cap on, then monopolies no longer have an incentive to reduce output because they can't raise the price - so they end up producing more at a lower price.
And, this was exacerbated by the fact that the retail power companies were mandated to essentially buy at any price from the suppliers."
Duncan gets one right. Serious question for you: are you one of those economists who honestly believe a "living wage" will reduce unemployment?
I got a twenty-page e-mail on how to improve the writing and where to get better links and how to be more polite to my commenters and how fuck and crap are not words she ever expected to read from me.
I expected something like that, though I did check out yer place to see if she had left any public advice. Ohhh Moms.
Did she discover it on her own or did you tell her about it?
I made sure to explain to my famdamily in great detail, what I was up to, leading up to the eyes rolling upward/brain switched off, conclusion that I was looking for. This to stave off possible similar outcome.
Oh, look - dipshit's going is preparing for a lecture on the evils of the minimum wage. The country will go to hell if full-time workers don't need supplemental government handouts to survive.
Give us a lecture, dipshit.
I admit, reading the Yahoo stock boards as the stock plunged provided me with endless hours of entertainment. Good times.
Unfortunately, it was probably not so entertaining for the Enron employees forced to invest their 401K funds exclusively in Enron stock...
"Fed's about 40% bigger than 2001. Care to comment, dipshit?"
And if you haven't read the continual outrage by the conservative blogs over this, then
a) you haven't been paying attention
or
b) you don't read conservative blogs.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're smart so I'm going to go with B.
Electricity markets are emminently gameable. You can't store electricity (well, water behind a dam is stored electricity, but otherwise) and you can't stock up on it when it's cheap so you don't have to buy it when it's expensive. It's an essential service and must be balanced precisely to load in real-time. As A, points out, local transmission congestion can cause cheap power in one zone to be unable to reach load in another zone (and Enron created false congestion in order to game the congestion markets). Add to that a complete lack of demand response and the fact that the consumer has no idea of how the price of power varies from hour to hour and you've got -- well, you've got a market that should be regulated.
-Hecate
"Oh, look - dipshit's going is preparing for a lecture on the evils of the minimum wage. The country will go to hell if full-time workers don't need supplemental government handouts to survive.
Give us a lecture, dipshit."
I'm not here to give a lecture, and I'm not necessarily against raising the minimum wage. But anyone who claims raising the minimum wage will reduce unemployment is a dishonest hack.
You want to raise the minimum wage - fine, go right ahead. You'll just have to justify it to the people you put out of work, not me.
certainly small increases in the minimum wage would have a minimal effect on unemployment, and to the extent that they decrease reliance on antipoverty programs there's an additional benefit. The minimum wage is definitely at a level most places where raising it is probably a pretty damn cheap anti-poverty program. Of course, if you don't want any antipoverty programs at all then you also don't want a minimum wage - the question is whether it's a reasonable efficient antipoverty program, and at the low levels it's at it almost certainly is.
Higher living wage proposals, especially local ones, would have a lot of strange effects. I'd be hesitant to support them, though I think certain institutions (local governments, colleges) would probably be wise to implement them for their own staff for a variety of reasons.
-Hecate,
you are all over the details of a timeline I can barely remember, thank you for the elucidation.
AVfE,
honest question, do you think Bush is a good president?
Don't forget that the gaming of the California system was a crucial part of destabilizing California in general so that the Arnold coup could take place.
And yes. I fucking hate these people.
"certainly small increases in the minimum wage would have a minimal effect on unemployment, and to the extent that they decrease reliance on antipoverty programs there's an additional benefit. The minimum wage is definitely at a level most places where raising it is probably a pretty damn cheap anti-poverty program. Of course, if you don't want any antipoverty programs at all then you also don't want a minimum wage - the question is whether it's a reasonable efficient antipoverty program, and at the low levels it's at it almost certainly is.
Higher living wage proposals, especially local ones, would have a lot of strange effects. I'd be hesitant to support them, though I think certain institutions (local governments, colleges) would probably be wise to implement them for their own staff for a variety of reasons."
Fair enough. For the record, whatever that's worth, I personally wouldn't be against raising the minimum wage, but I'm completely against instituting a so-called "living wage" for two reasons (neither having to do with hating poor people):
a) They tend to dramatically overestimate the cost of living.
b) If you thought unemployment was high in Europe right now, just wait til' you saw a living wage bill pass.
how hard caps can be justified in this case, when we don't do it for gas or other commodities
You can store gas and other commodities; not electricity. Also, for many other commodities, there are substitutes available without major re-tooling. Coffee goes through the roof; you can drink tea. Hog bellies go too high, eat chicken. No reasonably available substitutes for electricity, especially for Silicon Valley which needs electricity to, for example, manufacture chips.
For decades, electricity prices were "capped" by the rates filed at FERC which had to be based on prudently-incurred costs plus a reasonable rate of return. FERC decided to "deregulate" and let the market determine the price of electricity with no upwards boundary on the price. Yet, politically, California and it's public utilities couldn't tell sellers who demanded $5,000/MWh to just keep their damn power at that price. When the lights go out, people die, businesses lose money, there are serious political consequences. Thus, absent caps, sellers can charge whatever they want. FERC exascerbated the problem by creating middle men -- and Independent System Operator -- who bought power from suppliers and then collected the cost from the public utilities. Thus, the System Operator kept the lights on at all costs since it was paying with "other people's money."
-Hecate
AvfE
Who exactly is arguing that raising the minimum wage will reduce unemployment?
Truffaut's Fahrenheit 451 up now, on TCM.
Just another reason for that "smaller government" that you despise so much.
Another victory for Eschaton -3:42 pm
ummmm..shit-for-brains, please show me evidence of this smaller govt of which you speak?
then eat shit and die...
all capitalistic enterprise aims at monopoly. competition is sometimes the tool by which the most durable (or ruthless) entities seek to achieve monopoly...but monopoly is always the end-in view...Wal-Mart 'competes' only long enough to run it's competitors out of the market; then it raises prices, reduces service, and cheats everywhere possible.
Got any counter-exampples?
no...?
honestly din't think so...
.
"honest question, do you think Bush is a good president?"
Yes and no. When he calls the Minutemen Project members "vigilantes", then absolutely not. Not to mention that he's only threatened to veto one bill, a huge Medicare expansion entitlement. Those are just two examples.
But creating personal accounts (if done right) is actually one of the most progressive things that a Republican can do, if liberals put aside rhetoric and listened to some of the plans proposed. Some of the ideas have included creating a donut hole expansion of the taxes subject to payrolls, so that wages up to 90,000 are taxed, then a gap, and then wages earned by the super rich, say wages 500,000 or above getting taxed for Social Security to help pay the transition costs. And indexing benefits to wages for those in low brackets and indexing it to prices (which don't grow as fast as wages) for those in higher brackets to save money on the program.
Giving poor people capital to help raise their living standards and supplement labor income isn't an evil or nefarious idea. It's a damned good one. And it's a Republican idea.
Truffaut's Fahrenheit 451 up now, on TCM.
Uh Oh,
I think I have time to get a couple of eggrolls and catch the start.
later.
if you haven't read the continual outrage by the conservative blogs over this
So "outraged" that you keep voting for the people giving it to you.
You're a real smart boy, dipshit.
Another victory for Eschaton | Email | Homepage | 04.09.05 - 4:04 pm
you're so full of shit your eyes are brown...
honest question, do you think Bush is a good president?
honest answer, hahahahahahahaha - fuck- hahahahahahaha
You want to raise the minimum wage - fine, go right ahead. You'll just have to justify it to the people you put out of work, not me.
Explain how that works, dipshit. I assume gas price increases (also a fine benefit of Republican management of the economy) put a lot of people out of work. Do Republicans justify getting those people canned?
Tell us more, dipshit.
"So "outraged" that you keep voting for the people giving it to you.
You're a real smart boy, dipshit."
Yes, unfortunately those are our choices. When the alternative is even BIGGER government and "free" or
"national" (read socialist) health care, I vote for the lesser bigger government.
don't mention brown eyes, WGG, I am replacing a toilet this afternoon. (Another reason to hate Republicans: if they actually valued teachers and education, I would make enough money to hire a plumber to do this shitty job.)
Don't play with the trolls unless you are willing to waste more of your good time than a normal person. They don't listen. They cannot think. Therefore they are beneath engaging.
AvfE is getting more creatively nutty in each post.
Some of the ideas have included creating a donut hole expansion of the taxes subject to payrolls, so that wages up to 90,000 are taxed, then a gap, and then wages earned by the super rich, say wages 500,000 or above getting taxed for Social Security to help pay the transition costs.
I don't that there is very much "wage" income above 500K. At that level income is probably mostly coming from dividends, captial gains etc.
Giving poor people capital to help raise their living standards and supplement labor income isn't an evil or nefarious idea. It's a damned good one. And it's a Republican idea.
And exactly who is going to provide this capital to be given to the poor?
The two Enron titles: Smartest Guys in the Room and Conspiracy of Fools pretty much sum up the Enron debacle. They're both good accounts.
Leave it to dear Atrios to find the silver lining. Schadenfreude is about the only thing that cheers me up these days. Not a nice way to live.
"Explain how that works, dipshit. I assume gas price increases (also a fine benefit of Republican management of the economy) put a lot of people out of work. Do Republicans justify getting those people canned?
Tell us more, dipshit."
The increase in gas prices has nothing to do with Republicans other than perhaps a slight increase in the risk premium from Middle East countries following the War on Terror. 95% of the increase is due to increased demand from countries like China or India.
I thought the Left supported development in the Third World. I guess that was until their trip to the local soy latte coffe shop cost them an extra 50 cents at the pump, eh?
too many people to hate, lately. Hate, loathe, and fear.
"And exactly who is going to provide this capital to be given to the poor?"
Apparently you don't follow well. The personal accounts plan allows anyone to invest a portion of their Social Security taxes in stocks and bonds, which earns them capital (read: non-labor) income.
Eschaton, Eschaton, I've been thinking
What a grand world this would be
If the Repugs were shipped over
Far beyong the great blue sea.
The personal accounts plan allows anyone to invest a portion of their Social Security taxes in stocks and bonds, which earns them capital (read: non-labor) income.
When I hear that someone is going to "give" me something, I expect them to transfer something they presently own to me. I do not see that happening here.
PS: "Non labor income" is not "capital" It is still income. It is income you receive because of the capital you own.
...thought, I admit, reading the Yahoo stock boards as the stock plunged provided me with endless hours of entertainment. Good times.
Careful, Atrios. You have to keep in mind that when Enron's stock tanked, it took the pensions of a lot of rank and file employees with it. That's the thing that pisses me off the most. The same guys who ran the Enron ponzi scheme are now the ones who want us to trust them with Social Security piratization. NO FUCKING WAY!
And then FERC made the problem even worse by allowing one company to own a portfolio of power stations in California. Thus, if you withheld power from several of your plants, pushing the price of power up, you could collect back the difference and more when you finally did agree to run one of your plants. FERC could have reduced the motivation to game the markets significantly if it had simply refused to allow one company to own more than one power plant. But Houston energy companies such as Reliant would not have liked that restriction.
AVFE is taking a major risk in taking on Professor Atrios.
DWD: (aside) appreciated the vote of confidence this am...when the time comes, and it is coming, head for the mountains...
sorry 'bout your toilet problem. but, the weight apart, the trickiest part is getting the thing seated right on the wax ring and applying just the right amount of tension on the closet bolts...if you're not careful, you can crack the bowl, which is a recipe for--if not disaster, exactly, then--wet cuffs...
and be glad you know how to do these things...i make a fair living fixing things boomers and subsequent generations have never learned anything at all about, much less how to repair...
just sayin...
"Apparently you don't follow well. The personal accounts plan allows anyone to invest a portion of their Social Security taxes in stocks and bonds, which earns them capital (read: non-labor) income."
No, YOU don't follow well. Go find a hobby you can handle, like child molestation.
OT- but team england tosses its mitre into the wing-ring
English vicar files legal objection to royal wedding
WINDSOR, England (AFP) - An Anglican cleric filed a last-minute objection to the royal wedding, maintaining that Prince Charles, divorced from the late Princess Diana, could not remarry while heir to the throne.
The personal accounts plan allows anyone to invest a portion of their Social Security taxes in stocks and bonds, which earns them capital (read: non-labor) income."
Ask the Enron investors how much "capital (read: non-labor) income" they're getting from the 401k money they invested in Enron stocks and bonds.
An Anglican cleric filed a last-minute objection to the royal wedding, maintaining that Prince Charles, divorced from the late Princess Diana, could not remarry while heir to the throne.
focus
fer christ's effing sakes, doesn't this *cleric* have anything better to do?
Apparently not.
FERC could have reduced the motivation to game the markets significantly if it had simply refused to allow one company to own more than one power plant. But Houston energy companies such as Reliant would not have liked that restriction.
Whatever happened to the Sherman Anti-Trust act? Or are private power companies still exempted?
Charles, divorced from the late Princess Diana, could not remarry while heir to the throne.
Even after Diana's dead? Well I seem to remember this guy Harry who wanted very much to be both king and divorced...
I'm sick to death of pompous little shits from the Freeper boards like AVFE and their endorsement of stealing away everything we've worked for. Stock investments a good deal? My husband's 401k lost HALF its value. Job security? That's for losers, if you ask this dimwit. Security in old age? Sorry, you made the wrong picks, you're fucked, and no more bankruptcy for you, too bad.
I think people here know I'm not a hater by nature, but I'm sick of these idiots. I can only hope they experience some of the travails in the 'new economy.'
And yes, I live in CA. The Enron debacle hit home here. We have not forgotten.
Ask the Enron investors how much "capital (read: non-labor) income" they're getting from the 401k money they invested in Enron stocks and bonds.
* --- 4:30 pm
O Hecate, goddess, of the single-starred diadem:
Don't you know, there are no guarantees? If ther were guarantees, how would we induce the masses to perform our wishes? There's always risk. bad luck if you choose wrongly, but there it is. Discipline is the answer; always was and always will be...
/irony
An Anglican cleric filed a last-minute objection to the royal wedding, maintaining that Prince Charles, divorced from the late Princess Diana, could not remarry while heir to the throne.
What's so ironic about this is that Henry VIII created the Anglican church so he could divorce his first wife to marry Anne Bullen(sp?).
Socialist health care might be the only thing to save GM and Ford.
OT
Watching Farenheit 9/11. When the movie first came out, I had such a crush on Oscar Werner. Now he looks like a kid.
Back on topic. While raising the minimum wage might not have any real effect on the economy, it sure as shit will have a big effect on the families trying to survive on it. The trick is not to raise it so high that it kills jobs.
Had to make the egrolls, missed the first twenty of F451.
but they are hot and good.
AVfEn thanks for answering my question.
Let me know when you recognise and become disgusted by the realization that your party has been taken over by trotskyites and theocrats.
"She thinks we might be able to afford another wall screen."
I think people here know I'm not a hater by nature, but I'm sick of these idiots. I can only hope they experience some of the travails in the 'new economy.'
If Mommy has a big enough trust fund she will continue to be able to buy them all the Cheetos they want and also let them keep living in the basement.
fer christ's effing sakes, doesn't this *cleric* have anything better to do?
better- yes
less intrusive and fanatical- no
deja,
Regulated public utilities have always owned power plant portfolios. The interesting bit came about when FERC required California's public utilities to divest their genertion to others -- to sell their plants to the Reliants and Enrons of the world and then approved sales of multiple plants to the same few companies. FERC found, based on a completely bogus test that economists had been saying for years didn't work, that those companies wouldn't be able to exercise market power. Of course, events proved to FERC that the economists were right but FERC has never required the Reliants and Dynegys of the world to divest any of their plants and still allows them to sell at market-based rates. The one big change that has stabilized prices is that FERC finally and very unwillingly imposed a must-sell obligation on sellers that requires them to offer power to the markets. Once they were unable to withhold power to game the markets, prices went down. Of course, the West, even after this winter, is in the middle of a drought (thus, less hydro power for California) and one really hot summer (global warming, anyone?) could still see California paying billions a month for power or going dark.
-Hecate
"too many people to hate, lately. Hate, loathe, and fear."
--Sarah Deere
and I wonder why this is?
Little gentle me had never really hated anyone before this fucked up sham of an administration. Not boyfriends that dumped me, not bosses who once treated me badly, not even Ronald R. (though he did embarrass me).
Thanks, Hecate. That explains a lot. I'm in CA myself, and suspected all along that the markets were being gamed, but wasn't sure what the legalities and restrictions were.
Socialist health care might be the only thing to save GM and Ford.
shirty -- 4:36 pm
Hey, GM? Ford?
Who da fuck needs 'em?
If they're wasteful or inefficient, they're just so much more fodder for that great kapital machine in the sky.
Jobs?
retrain 'em, or rebreed 'em. all the same to us...we'll put 'em to work defending the empire's frontiers... high mortality rate cuts way down on the pension costs...
hey, this bat-shit kapitalism's easy... i could do this for a living...
.
If ther were guarantees, how would we induce the masses to perform our wishes
Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. WGG, you always cut through the bs. It's always about power over with these fucktards.
Hecate
Now Ms. Carr, a speech pathologist who calls herself "a typical American citizen," is as outraged as the girl's teachers and classmates, who have learned that the girl and another 16-year-old are being called would-be suicide bombers and are being held in an immigration detention center in Pennsylvania.
Fahrenheit 451 QL.
Yeah I had a crush on him as well.
Especially in Ship Of Fools.
Hey, GM? Ford?
Who da fuck needs 'em?
Exactly. I say let them fall.
"According to a government document provided to The New York Times by a federal official earlier this week, the Federal Bureau of Investigation has asserted that both girls are "an imminent threat to the security of the United States based on evidence that they plan to be suicide bombers." No evidence was cited, and federal officials will not comment on the case."
Little gentle me had never really hated anyone before this fucked up sham of an administration. Not boyfriends that dumped me, not bosses who once treated me badly, not even Ronald R. (though he did embarrass me).
++++++++++++++++++++++++
The depth and length of my hatred has honestly surprised me.
WGG, you always cut through the bs.
(((speechless, for once, he blushes becomingly, his white-beard-enwreathed, cheery-blue-eyed countenance glowing in the approbation of a goddess)))
"Ms. Lane, the art teacher, said that when Heritage High first learned that immigration agents had picked up the girl, one of her best friends asked if someone from the school might have denounced her as an illegal immigrant. "I remember telling her the government doesn't go after 16-year-old girls," Ms. Lane said. "And in the last few days, I'm wrestling with the fact that, yes, it does.""
Especially in Ship Of Fools.
++++++++++++++++++
Ayup - Simone Signoret was my first introduction to the fact that a woman can be absolutely beautiful while classically quite plain. The other one was the French film about the threesome. I think that was Trauffet (sp?) as well.
Clean sheets btw.
Seebach,
where did you get the news on the teenaged girls?
Sounds like we have turned another corner in the US of trumped up Chargistan.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/20...4/9/15376/
67014
From the NYT.
(((speechless, for once, he blushes becomingly, his white-beard-enwreathed, cheery-blue-eyed countenance glowing in the approbation of a goddess)))
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mr. WGG - you have such a way with words. If I was Hecate I'd be about swooning now.
I saw the "The Smartest Guys in the Room" a few weeks ago at a film festival. Since I live on the west coast, most of the info I was already familiar with. But seeing it put together, showing exactly what was going on behind the scenes, then showing the public statements these fuckers were making was stunning. What gall.
The audience loved it, cheering and booing and laughing at these clowns being exposed for what they are.
If you have a chance to see it, please do! Take as many Bush lovers with you so they can see how the "bidnessmen" work.
I remember telling her the government doesn't go after 16-year-old girls," Ms. Lane said. "And in the last few days, I'm wrestling with the fact that, yes, it does.""
Seebach - 4:50 pm
this raises a REALLY salient point, folx...
We have to be careful to discriminate, rhetorically, between the 'government' and the 'regime'!
Cuz if we bring the Bushevik REGIME down, but in doing so, are seen to have also finally destroyed 'government,' then they will have won, in despite of us...
...just sayin...
.
Sallyh, Countess Aerohen
Has anyone started a "Recall Ahnold" petion? It seems it could be started on-line pretty cheaply.
From the NYT.
Thank you kindly.
First they came after.........
We happen to be on the list my friends.
Late to the game, but on the subject of social security piratization:
The Bush plan involves borrowing $2 trillion or more for transition to a private system. That's about $7,100 for every citizen of the US, and it's borrowed money that we will have to repay, not Bush or Wall Street. Assuming a 40-year amortization schedule on this borrowing (from today until the date when social security becomes insolvent), with 5% annual interest, we add about another $9,200 in debt per citizen, for a grand total of $16,300 in transition costs (debt) per citizen of the US.
And at the end of the 40 years, the worker who is 25 years old today and earning an average $35K per year will recieve significantly lower (about 15% less) benefits from his private account and social security benefit combined than if we do nothing at all, in which case it's estimated that 80% of benefits will be able to be paid.
The Bush plan takes $16,300 out of the pocket of each American worker to underwrite transition to a plan that delivers only 67% of currently promised benefits.
So of course the wingers love it. Reality-based math is for dweebs, dontchaknow.
I think it's true that quite a bit was technically legal, but the real scandal is actually the political one - FERC had the power to stop this right away and Kenny Boy's appointee wouldn't do it.
That's it in a nutshell.
I really didn't enjoy watching Enron stock collapse. I was living in Houston at the time and knew several people who worked for enron. One guy had been there over 20 years. He lost everything.
His job, his retirement, and eventually his home. He wasn't the only one. Many of the people most hurt were long time employees who found themselves close to retirement age with absolutely nothing.
To add insult to injury, they found they were virtually un-employable.
In the meantime, Kenny-boy walked away. And is still walking free today. It's astonishing that none of his former employees has taken a ball bat to his head.
And exactly who is going to provide this capital to be given to the poor?
____league
Pay Day Loan sharks, check-cashing joints and pawn shops.
That explains a lot. I'm in CA myself, and suspected all along that the markets were being gamed, but wasn't sure what the legalities and restrictions were.
Listen, they more than gamed the system, they actively manipulated it.
They took power plants off-line to create bogus shortages to boost spot prices.
It was beyond despicable.
And FERC had the power to stop it.
In the meantime, Kenny-boy walked away. And is still walking free today. It's astonishing that none of his former employees has taken a ball bat to his head.
Surprised me, as well.
Arnold must be tied to Enron. That'll send him packing for sure.
Lumpen--we've got an entire movement afoot here to dump the Governator.
In the meantime, Kenny-boy walked away. And is still walking free today. It's astonishing that none of his former employees has taken a ball bat to his head.
Or at least a very nasty tripping.
In the meantime, Kenny-boy walked away. And is still walking free today. It's astonishing that none of his former employees has taken a ball bat to his head.
fourlegsgood 4:59 pm
i can see a sort of reverse-Victor Hugo story plot in there: a life-long Enron employee, who lost everything: home, family, savings, career, hope, future employment, life-savings in the Ken-Lay-induced corporate crash, starts to stalk not only lay, but, having bagged him, then goes after the crooked CEO's of all the huge failures of the last 20 years...Charles Bronson's dead, but he'd be the perfect DeathWish kind of presence...
that fucking sings,.
Shit: You heard it here first...
but if it comes to it, and anybody knows a market, i'll ask only for 20%...
JUST SAYIN...
The FERC had the power to stop it, but didn't because the 'crisis' was part of the plot, manufactured by Rove and Cheney, to punish California, disgrace Gray, and elect the gropenator...
WHY THE FUCK WILL NO BELIEVE THIS???
Lumpen--we've got an entire movement afoot here to dump the Governator.
Sallyh
Good to hear. I don't even live there, but the Arnold phenomenon just creeps me out,
I keep wondering when people (who voted for Bush) will have to face the real problems.
Because there are, as all of us here realize, so many real problems.
I was thinking about supermarkets this morning, how overwhelming they are with all their choices (which, really, are not so very many...just the sheer quantity that feeds the illusion).
Has not been good for us, has it? This seeming limitless number of choices.
Thinking about the produce section. An obscene wealth of food, just sitting there, lightly misted, bright and fresh. Thrown out the minute it becomes less than perfect. How much do we just consign to the trash?
The Goodwill does a bang-up business in clothing (among other things). Stores crammed full of mostly poorly made and overpriced stuff. Which we then throw away not all that long after buying it.
Clogged with "goods", the market staggers on.
And people elsewhere starve to death every day.
Sarah,
worrying about consequenses is for people like us who give a damn. For those driving Hummer H2's that get written off as business expenses, not so much.
Those that aren't benefitting from the rigged game, well, they're just team AmericaBots and can always take solace in the "fact" that the Jews, Negroes,
and immagrents, are resposible for their troubles.
I lived in California and was fucked over by Enron. Not only were the media nay sayers about what was going on, but so were many partisian 'hack' economists.
I see that our friend "hat" is a fan of Stalin.
The hits just keep on coming.
WHY THE FUCK WILL NO BELIEVE THIS???
Actually, I have no problem believing this.
And the scandals go on, as with AIG, a high end Enron. Makes you want to rush out and invest your SS retirement money in these companies.
"Regulated public utilities have always owned power plant portfolios. The interesting bit came about when FERC required California's public utilities to divest their genertion to others -- to sell their plants to the Reliants and Enrons of the world and then approved sales of multiple plants to the same few companies. FERC found, based on a completely bogus test that economists had been saying for years didn't work, that those companies wouldn't be able to exercise market power. Of course, events proved to FERC that the economists were right but FERC has never required the Reliants and Dynegys of the world to divest any of their plants and still allows them to sell at market-based rates. "
Well while I was away this week the wonderful market adjustment requires companies to seek the best sell price for goods and will drive markets upwards artificially.
This also makes a static model and reduce capital transfer across secotrs and categories .
Finally it allows big buyers to swallow up entire market sectors and force companies into buyouts instead of allowing them to set rates at a price determined best for the interest of their market. Their expected target return customers may become outsourced and it will stifle market exchange in the long run.
The change passed with little notice this week, and with consumer power compromised the thought is that top companies will buy up all others and the projection is for double digit growth to top compnies as a result.
Basically it is taking the enron pricing for power and applying it to stocks on a buy-sell basis. And yes at times you do not take the highest price because if you did Volkswagens would have been priced like Cadillacs, there is a market place for each value and this new formula will force overvaluation and the results of that is already seen with currency rates.
Another move to let the big dog eat the entire meal.
Thanks for the brief explanation on the supply & demand situation earlier in the comments, Atrios. Very helpful... When it's explained as essentially a "monopoly" situation, then it's clearer to me that price caps should have been implemented...
oligopoly, shared interests coordinating vertically integrated interests to set high demand and restrict supply- see also OPEC
The increase in gas prices has nothing to do with Republicans other than perhaps a slight increase in the risk premium from Middle East countries following the War on Terror. 95% of the increase is due to increased demand from countries like China or India.
Watta dipshit
I'd like to stick up for drooling idiots everywhere, but I just can't bring myself to do it.
Atrios wrote: "Most importantly, the obvious course of action was to impose hard price caps on the system, something not understood by the drooling idiots whose entire knowledge of economics is a basic supply/demand diagram."
You don't present yourself as anything better than a freshmen in ECO 101 with that suggested remedy. California's so called de-regulation was anything but. It was just a re-regulation, and a typically awful congressional plan. There would have been a lot more blackouts with your hard price caps, herr comrade.
Atrios wrote: "And, this was exacerbated by the fact that the retail power companies were mandated to essentially buy at any price from the suppliers."
Yep. And that they were also not allowed to purchase forward contracts so they could lessen their cost uncertainty.
Now explain to me how these mandates and rules constitute anything that should be called "DE-regulation"?
There would have been a lot more blackouts with your hard price caps, herr comrade.
Well it's funny that the blackouts STOPPED as soon as FERC imposed price caps, then.
I'm still pissed.
California got screwed and Bush let it happen. Arnold promised to get our money back and he hasn't done shit.
Enron... the question that bugs me is,if these people were stealing money from California, money in the tens of millions of dollars, how did the company end up going bankrupt? Seriously, where did the money go? Was it into CEO ratholes or did they invest poorly in other areas?
beb,
The money's in the Caymans. Well, a few billions are in escrow type accounts waiting for FERC to decide who gets to keep it -- California or Enron, et al. But a lot of it's in the Caymans in accounts that I suspect go back to Skilling and Lay. And then we know that Enron made big political donations to, let me think, um, oh yeah, Bush!
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