I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
i don't even have to read it, what i saw thursday was depressing enough. i really wonder at what point the 99% of americans who don't benefit from it will wake up and see that they have been had by a bunch of aristocrats masking as people who believe in democracy.
Fuck Bush, Delay, Frist and every Democrat who voted to get rid of the estate tax.
and frist, no less!
Chicago Dyke - Here's the thing about "Americans waking up:" how will we know? Don't the polls indicate that Americans are waking up? Georgie is losing numbers, probably as I type. I just don't know how exactly we're supposed to be able to tell, if not via the polls.
but it's a death tax!!! don't you see!!! and it's double taxation!!! it's just like the holocaust!!!
whare is the outrage over the burdensome work tax, by the way?
The rich keep getting richer...
And the poor, well...
we know what happens to them...
Nice. Well nicely explained, the situation makes me depressed. But then again what from these folks doesn't.
Letters, I get Letters. You get blogwhored.
Amazing. The Credit Card Company Protection Act and Protection of the American Aristocracy Act in the same week.
What are you people thinking???!!!
BTW, I haven't heard any new polls on GWB's job approval ratings. Coincidence? I think not.
i don't even have to read it, what i saw thursday was depressing enough. i really wonder at what point the 99% of americans who don't benefit from it will wake up and see that they have been had by a bunch of aristocrats masking as people who believe in democracy.
chicago dyke
Kinda like the French Revolution, except the aristocracy has convinced Moron Amurkins to cut off their own heads.
Here's a little bit from the WSJ:
The Economy; CAPITAL: Populist Scythe Aids 'Death Tax' Foes
David Wessel. Wall Street Journal. (Eastern edition). New York, N.Y.: Apr 14, 2005. pg. A.2
The estate tax this year will fall on those who leave assets of more than $1.5 million. That is about 18,800 of the 2.5 million people expected to die this year, according to the Brookings Institution- Urban Institute Tax Policy Center. Only 440 -- that isn't a typo -- will be estates in which half or more of the assets are farms or family-owned businesses, the cases so highly publicized by those who want to kill the tax.
Advocates of repeal steered the issue away from facts to morality, declaring the estate tax an unfair levy on success. They also put faces on it -- U.S. farmers and small-business owners, never rich fellows who wanted to bequeath mansions or portfolios. One of the most prominent belonged to Chester Thigpen, a tree farmer from Mississippi, who testified in favor of repeal at age 83 in 1995. "It turns out," Mr. Graetz reports, "that Thigpen's estate was too small to be affected by the estate tax, but that was just a detail."
As both sides realize, the stakes in this year's estate-tax debate are larger than the small number of people it hits. It is part of a debate about how much to use the tax code to arrest the widening gap between rich and poor.
Yeah, but those Damned Democrats are discriminating against People of Faith! Don't bother me with such trifles about what kind of tax this is...
The average effective rate for the larger estates is under 20 percent. The marginal rate is around 50 percent. A few years ago, I had to try and explain the distinction to Bill O'Reilly on national television.
Now that must have been a rewarding experience...
"Shut up! Shut up! Cut his mike! Death tax death tax death tax! Awp!"
I remember listening to Bill O'R complain about the economic disincentives of taxes and how, if his taxes went any higher, why he'd just stop doing his show and look at all the people THAT would put out of work.
Like the network would just show a test pattern during his time slot, I guess.
And like he wouldn't PAY for the opportunity to spread his shit on a national field.
We just have to get rid of the estate tax, the corporation income tax and reduce tax rates on dividends and capital gains to zero and nirvana will have been achieved. At least for those with rich ancestors. Welcome to the new feudal society.
they are thinking of being stinking rich, sallyh.
Chicago Dyke - Here's the thing about "Americans waking up:" how will we know? Don't the polls indicate that Americans are waking up? Georgie is losing numbers, probably as I type. I just don't know how exactly we're supposed to be able to tell, if not via the polls.
Tena | Email
we'll know when we start acting like americans again, and taking to the streets. or, we'll never see that kind of waking up again, instead we'll awaken to a new construction of the concept of 'america' that is defined locally, as states no longer receive federal support enough to justify a union. or never. i'm not sure today.
totally personally OT: i'm writing a personal ad for craig's list. suggestions?
He leaves out the fact that there are literally dozens of planning techniques that can be used to AVOID the goddamned tax.
My estate won't be that large, but I can darn sure leave it to organizations that will fight these fascists.
OT: Out planting herbs all morning: dill, basil, rosemary, parsley. Doves cooing in the trees, sun shining. It's difficult to be angry about anything.
Stinky--that's where the poissarden come in...
my favorite jane galt post ever (max links to her) was when she decided the estate tax was bad because no one paid it anyway. Her proof? none of the families of the kids in her wealthy high school paid it. I had no idea these things were the subject of school lunch conversation.
work tax. let's start talking about the work tax. you know. the big chunk of our income that we have to pay every year as a result of working.
Right you are, Olaf! And don't forget the Double Taxation on the money taken out for Social Security!
It is part of a debate about how much to use the tax code to arrest the widening gap between rich and poor.
Changes in the tax code are now designed to widen the gap between rich and poor.
work tax. let's start talking about the work tax. you know. the big chunk of our income that we have to pay every year as a result of working.
That does it: I'm not going to work anymore!
my favorite jane galt post ever (max links to her) was when she decided the estate tax was bad because no one paid it anyway. Her proof? none of the families of the kids in her wealthy high school paid it.
I shit you not, that is one of my Representative's (Jefferson) justifications for voting to repeal the tax:
“First, there is no clear evidence that the estate tax is progressive or that larger estates are paying a greater portion of the tax. Wealthier members of our society are able to reduce and or eliminate the impact of the estate tax by stuffing money away here and there at the suggestion of high-priced attorneys and accountants. Similarly, tax planning techniques such as gift tax exclusions or valuation discounts reduce the size of the gross estate but do not appear in the IRS data causing effective tax rates to be overstated for many larger estates. The Institute for Policy Innovation recently revealed evidence of this fact in a study showing that the effective tax rate on the most valuable estates was actually lower than that on medium-sized estates.
“Second, the insignificant amount of money the estate tax raises for the federal government cannot justify the harmful effects it has on business owners who spend more to avoid the tax than the federal tax revenue raised. According to the President’s FY 2005 Budget, the estate and gift tax brought in $22.8 billion in revenues to the federal government in 2003. This represents less than 1.1 percent of the total revenues out of a more than $2 trillion federal budget and less than the amount of money spent complying with, or trying to circumvent, the death tax.
Wanker.
Crazy.
Ah, the old "rich people have wily accountants" gambit...
Her proof? none of the families of the kids in her wealthy high school paid it. I had no idea these things were the subject of school lunch conversation.
Atrios
Hey when you are getting a swirly 3 or 4 times a day for your whole Sr. year like Jane Galt was, a lot of things get discussed between dunkings.
sales tax is double taxation too. i have already paid taxes on all the money i ever use to buy anything.
I had no idea these things were the subject of school lunch conversation.
Atrios | Email |
well, our kids talk about it all the time, the trust fund babies in the College. and when i went to a chichi private school, my friends with estates not only discussed them, but compared them and their plans for how to manage them when they turned 25. that was the age most of my friends with estates got control, although in some families i knew the money always stayed in the hands of the patriarch.
In a world that has Paris Hilton, why should there be any debate about the necessity for the estate tax. All we need to do is point at here and say "THAT'S why we have it."
It's difficult to be angry about anything.
Hecate. Try.
Or, I could lend you my list?
I'm going to go make myself a nice cup of tea and then kick some ass.
"The US has the worst distribution of income of any well-to-do country. In a list of 30 prosperous nations, including smaller economies such as Taiwan and Israel, only Russia and Mexico have a greater maldistribution of income than the US."
Christian Science Monitor, 4/14/05
A word to the minions of "Jane Galt": look, she's not going to fuck you. (Man, that's an ugly thread Max links to. McArdle and her posse really take the cake.)
The trust fund babies at my law school took out federal loans and invested in the stock market and in real estate.
sales tax is double taxation too. i have already paid taxes on all the money i ever use to buy anything.
Some years ago it was estimated that the effective total tax burden was about the same across all income levels. Since then the taxes more likely to be paid by the poor (ex: sales taxes, auto registration )have increased while the taxes paid by rich (ex: taxes on dividends) have decreased.
Atrios posted a list of spammers yesterday, sooooo with nothing else to do, I emailed them.
here is one reply.
From: "Robin" Add to Address Book
Subject: Re: pami
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:36:59 -0400
I'd prefer to eat my breakfast and live. However I do apologize for
the spam.
It was an error in judgment, not a malicious attack.
I'm sorry to have created a problem and won't repeat it.
R.
On Saturday 16 April 2005 00:05, you wrote:
> eat shit and die
Very few of the people I've known who inherited large amounts of wealth any time before they were 40 or so turned out too well. Maybe just coincidence, but I've always thought that something about knowing you didn't really have to support yourself corrodes a person's character. So rock on, Republicans; you're not really helping your kids after all.
When I took property law, the prof told us that all English property laws were designed to prevent people from tying up property via inheritance, something the nobles wanted to do. The law was designed to allow property to be available for its most efficient use, not to tie it up in one family forever. Clearly, we're moving in the opposite direction.
The trust fund babies at my law school took out federal loans and invested in the stock market and in real estate.
TJ
Ditto at mine. Their "free money" explanation didn't really soothe me, I'll say that.
northsylvania - wow, that statistic from the CSM is astonishing.
"BTW, I haven't heard any new polls on GWB's job approval ratings. Coincidence? I think not."
--Sallyh
That's not going to be released anymore, just like the Report on Terrorism that got nixed. Too many variables.
the everyone for him/herself society. america-aren't you proud.
god they're yammering about family farms in that thread.
no one has been able to find a single family farm forced under by the estate tax, and believe me they've been trying.
I haven't seen any polls on Nero's approval rating lately.
How One Pill Escaped Place on Steroid List
By ANNE E. KORNBLUT and DUFF WILSON
Published: April 17, 2005
ASHINGTON, April 15 - ...But unlike every other substance in the steroid family, the supplement, DHEA, is not classified as a controlled drug. In fact, the chalky white pills and capsules enjoy an exemption under federal law, thanks to a bill passed by Congress late last year.
How DHEA, or dehydroepiandrosterone, came to enjoy legal protections granted by Congress - at the very moment that steroid abuse was grabbing national headlines, and just months before Congress itself held hearings on the use of body-building drugs in professional baseball - is a study in skillful political maneuvering, according to participants in the deal.
Sports officials had favored an overall ban on steroids and related pills, like DHEA, which is banned by the Olympics, the World Anti-Doping Agency, the National Collegiate Athletic Association, the National Football League, the National Basketball Association and baseball minor leagues.
...Nevertheless, Senator Orrin G. Hatch of Utah, a Republican who represents a state where many dietary supplements are produced and who is a longtime champion of herbal remedies, felt strongly last year that DHEA must be kept legal and available as an "anti-aging" pill. Other lawmakers and staff members said he threatened to kill a far-reaching piece of legislation restricting the sale of other steroids, educating children about the dangers of steroids and increasing penalties for illegal use if his colleagues did not agree to include an exemption for DHEA.
His son Scott Hatch is a lobbyist for the National Nutritional Foods Association, a trade association for the dietary supplement industry, and has represented supplement companies themselves, including Twin Laboratories, which sells DHEA. The elder Mr. Hatch said he did not think he had been lobbied by his son, and cited the legitimate uses for DHEA as his reason for fighting for it.
"There is a big argument that DHEA is very beneficial for health and well-being," Mr. Hatch said, noting that he did not believe there was significant opposition to leaving DHEA on the market. "I didn't see much resistance," Mr. Hatch said. "There are always those who are against any dietary supplement or anything not subject to total FDA approval." He was joined in fighting for the exemption by Senator Tom Harkin, Democrat of Iowa, a leading supporter of dietary supplements.
bkny - {{{running to kitchen to check}}}
I'm not taking Twin Labs DHEA ANY MORE.
I shit you not, that is one of my Representative's (Jefferson) justifications for voting to repeal the tax:
I seem to recall Preznit Bush using a similar argument about taxes in general, about how those sneaky rich people have the fancy accounting tricks to get out of paying their taxes.
But apparently the appropriate response to that sort of thing is to throw up your hands and say "Why bother?" than actually, y'know, closing the loophole.
Hey, remember when Bush said dismantling Social Security was a good idea 'cause black people die young?
Chicago Dyke - we'll know when we start acting like americans again
Good answer.
on your OT question - I've never done that, so I don't really have any good suggestions. Sorry - but I bet if you keep asking you'll get good suggestions - I've rarely seen a question like that asked here that didn't elicit a lot of good responses.
the everyone for him/herself society. america-aren't you proud.
I find it interesting that most of those who post here seem to have the smarts to do pretty well in a dog-eat-dog world. I personally do not want a world in which, even if I am rich*, nearly everybody around me is poor and suffering. I think that is a sentiment widely held here.
*I'm not rich but I am not poor either.
Hey, remember when Bush said dismantling Social Security was a good idea 'cause black people die young?
Yeah, well, Jefferson also said repealing the estate tax was good because it would help minorities.
That's when I started screaming out loud at the office.
For each person who would qualify for the estate tax, there are over 1,000 living below the poverty level. So the filthy rich get more tax relief, and those in deperate need of relief get nothing.
I'm just waiting for Frist to claim it's a tax on "Christians going to heaven."
_____league-
I think that's a fair assessment, and it's been my attitude on the Social Security business. If they did rejigger the system, then I would probably do alright by doing my homework, etc. It's that other half of society (like my grandparents) that I wouldn't want to throw out on the curb just because they might not be swift in investing.
If they did rejigger the system, then I would probably do alright by doing my homework, etc
Or by being smart enough not to put any money into your "personal" account...
For each person who would qualify for the estate tax, there are over 1,000 living below the poverty level.
And what is defined as poverty is pretty low: 12,490 for a family of 2 in 2004. Around here that could all be gone just paying for a place to live. forget eating etc.
I'm already quite sold on the buried mayo-jar method at this point.
Paying off student loans in freshly-hustled cash, etc.
Will you PLEASE stop using the Radical Republican term "Estate tax"?
It's "Inheritance Tax" ... as it was from the date it was enacted until the early 1980s.
And while you're at it, be sure to label the bill that rolled back the Inheritance Tax the "Paris Hilton Tax Elimination Act".
if repukelicans held themselves to the same "tough love" standards that they hold the less fortunate, they would be raising the inheritance tax, not eliminating it. If they had the slightest flicker of integrity they would howl for elimination of inheritance. But since we all know repukelicans to be unconscionable hypocrites exuding boundless greed, they do exactly the opposite of the standard they hold others to.
I know this will make me unpopular but I have no problem seeing a complete end to estate or property taxes. As far as I am concerned I ended up paying thousands in sales taxes on the end, not to mention other government costs and fees in the process. But to continue paying an annual 'rent' to the state for my home while I also pay a monthly mortgage. The government has no incentive t otax me on this. I pay fees to have water, and other utility hookups. I pay for other services. I don't like the idea that If I refuse or cannot pay property taxes that the state can confiscate your home and if you happen to have property inside that home then all of it becomes theirs too. Wedding rings, personal photos, etc. In some states it all becomes the possession of the state if they decide you or default on your property tax bill.
As for the estate tax, why should I have to pay it? I see no other reason to do this other than to tax the rich.
And you guys know how I feal about the rich so it's not like I'm taking their side on this.
But I can make compromises. Having more than one home is probably ok, but I still see no reason for it. Having multiple vehicles is probably ok for taxing cause it causes additional wear and tear on the roads, but since I also pay for license tags why should I be double taxed?
This is one area that I have no problem with eliminating the taxes.
MYOB(Iron Charioteer)'
.
The rich already possess incredible amounts of unassailable wealth and power. What are we to begrudge them a little more?
All revolts in the past did not come from a economically and politically empowered underclass understood by a determinist view of historical dialectics. They were instead pursued by agrarian groups and other segments of the population modern Malthusians would label as 'superfluous.'
Therein lies an immanentization of the eschaton indeed.
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