I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Maybe we need to bring back honor killings to straighten out this screwed up culture.
from the same linked site, different section:
" I am owned by my father. If someone is interested in me, he should see him.
wow. just, wow.
-J.T.
In modern America, recreational dating is taken to be a positive good, like food, air, and sunshine, a necessary, inescapable activity. It is considered to be a normal and natural part of growing up - what could be more wholesomely American than taking a girl to the prom? But the fact is that dating was entirely unknown at the time the Scriptures were given to us. This means that for those who take the Bible seriously should consider what the Bible has to say on the formation of families.
This is not, by the way, new. It's almost as old as Christianity itself; certainly as old as Protestantism. I've known people of this mind-set, who loudly proclaimed that if it wasn't in the Bible, it was a suspect practice.
I always wondered how they reconciled indoor plumbing, then there are clear stories of Biblical figures "covering their feet," itself a clear reference to...well, going to the bathroom, to put it as un-Biblically as possible.
Always good to know where the lunatic fringe is, so you can keep an eye on it.
Dating creates a permanent endorphin-bond between two people who will not spend their lives together.
If the bonds are permanent, doesn't that mean they'll spend their lives together? Sounds like the logic of denying gays the right to marry: "they're not monogamous!"
My brain hurts.
Yeah, because kids don't know anything, unlike those responsible adults, responsible enough to have affairs and divorce their 3rd wife.
And this lovely tidbit - "Thus, the will of the father regarding his daughter IS the will of God." Yes, anything the dad decides to do to his daughter is the will of GOd. Even if it's sexually molesting her. So...what about the mother? Oh wait, women are either their father's property or baby making machines. THat's the XTian way, right?
Virginity was an inheritance to be brought into a marriage, and the father of the bride was responsible to preserve that inheritance. If a new husband slandered his bride and claimed that she was not a virgin, the bride's father and mother would defend her name and the name of their family. They would present the evidence of her virginity to the elders of the city (Deuteronomy 22:15). But if the charge was true, and the woman was not a virgin, then the bride was to be executed in front of her father's house. "But if the thing is true, and evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house. So you shall put away the evil from among you" (Deuteronomy. 22:20-21). Why the doorway to her father's house, rather than her husband's house? Because she had rebelled against her father's authority, and dishonored him.
In scripture it is obvious that daughters are to submit to their father's authority, while the father's responsibility is to protect their daughters
And besides, women are property of men.
I can see W. embracing this one real soon.
Somebody send this guy to Freshman English and give him a copy of "The Lottery." Please.
It won't make a dent, but the contrast will be fascinating for everyone else.
Oh, and completely OT, but I've gotted a few more submissions for the Atriot Companions photo album. I'll be posting them shortly. And don't forget, dogs and ferrets and other friends are all welcome. Right now Cairo's feeling a bit out of place, being the only canine surrounded by felines.
And given the nature of this thread, Rick Santorum is NOT welcome...
Ayup - Put is all in the hands of the daddy. And from some of the recent revelations you can be your bippy that quite a few girls will be entering holy matrimony minus a hyman.
And that's the Perfecta for the morning.
Oil, Chimp on a bike, Spy vs.Spy and now the Fundies.
I gotta go rinse out my fuckin' brain.
See y'all.
RMJ, you're our scholar (in the Broher Maynard sense, by which I mean nothing but good). Maybe you can help me here.
I have always figured that the roots of Christianity being so freaked out by sex are based in the idea of the physical needs and desires of this world distracting the faithful from God. Do you know if that's the case, and, if so, does anyone have any idea how and when it started? Augustine? Rewrites of ancient texts into the Gospels? What?
In short, how did the Puritans, and most other varieties of Christianity, get that way?
(I realize that this may be an absolutely impossible question to answer at all, let alone briefly, and I pose it here mostly to start conversation. But there is such a huge anti-sexual, misogynistic streak in Christianity -- and Islam, and a few others -- that even stomping the Goddess doesn't seem to be enough to explain it.)
Somebody send this guy to Freshman English and give him a copy of "The Lottery." Please.
Isn't that the Shirley Jackson short story about how a town wins the Lotto and becomes a sinful place called Potterville?
Can anyone say P-A-T-R-I-A-R-C-H-Y?
so this is the path: patriarchal, theocratic, fascist oligarchy?
i'll die fighting it, if i have to...
and there IS gonna need blood in the streets to stop it...
don't imagine for one minute it won't...
their indefatigable back-up weapon is that they are bat-shit crazy and we ALL know they will kill or die to see their agenda enacted: think clinic bombings, physician murders, Mtthew Shepard, et al...:
you KNOW they'll stop at nothing, and they know we'll always scruple somewhere...
But...what does one do if one's father doesn't consider the young lady property? Monsieur is puzzled.
Hey, it might have worked when people married at 14...but ...but, oh hell, I'm making my head hurt trying to figure out a rationalization for these wackos.
and a little more of the wingnuttery that is going on..in the guardian today the following
An emergency dispatcher at a North Carolina sheriff's department was presented with an ultimatum after the sheriff discovered that she was living with her boyfriend outside of wedlock: get married, move home or find another job.
Carson Smith, the sheriff of Pender county, told Deborah Hobbs, 40, that her decision to cohabit was a moral and a legal issue.
"This is sort of like a double barrel," he told Star-News Wilmington. "It is a violation of general statute, and it goes against something that I believe - it is a moral issue ... Personally and morally, I think it's best to be married if you're going to be living together
The father, who should be protecting his daughter's sexual purity, instead sends her off into the dark with some 17 year old boy whose veins are chock full of testosterone.
Hot damn! Now I can finally stop feeling guilty about all those poor, naive virgins I deflowered. Yo Daddys - what the hell were you thinking, letting your innocent and trusting little girls go out with an obvious degenerate like me?
..
Filkertom--
I don't honestly know, although I know the answer is out there. (BTW--GWPDA is a scholar; I am a mere auto-didact, and not very good at that!). Odd, too, considering how much time Jesus spent among prostitutes, without ever making a statement condemning prostitutions (he condemned violence, greed, selfishness, a number of other things; but not prostitution).
I suspect it has more to do with power, than with anything else (Augustine springs to mind). Sex is powerfully destabilizing in a society (just look at Ovid's Metamorphoses); controlling sex is always preferred, especially by those who want to establish authority.
On the other hand, the Puritans get a bum rap. They weren't nearly as hung up on sex as the Victorians were later.
And we tend to view all matters about sex through the Victorian lens, now.
...to play the harlot in her father's house
when the word 'harlot' entered English, it referred to masterless men-at-arms who were the plague of every medieval city: because, by definition, they had killed and were unafraid of death...
later the word was transferred onto the women who serviced these men...
just sayin...
.
But...what does one do if one's father doesn't consider the young lady property? Monsieur is puzzled.
Well, as a parent who thinks his 21 year old daughter is a person, I made sure she knows the fact of reproduction, contraception the truth about sexual behavior, and that sex is powerful and capable of misuse, as well as pleasure and great good. And I try to not to show up at the door when her boyfriend calls with the Bowie knife and chainsaw....
personally, i think my dad should've held out for a few more goats when i got married.
Dating creates a permanent endorphin-bond between two people who will not spend their lives together.
who else thinks that the kind of man ('cause few women can really endorse this) who believes in this kind of system is essentially one who fell hard for some girl as a teen and was rejected, and he never matured beyond that point?
the pain of unrequited love is pretty strong, and in a weak mind i can see how such a system would be a natural refuge from that pain. it's also funny to see wingers mix science (endorphins are studied under the rubric of biology, no?) and their own uniformed perceptions of ancient mythology.
It's a lot harder for brides to run away when they're chattel.
Kinda OT:
Don'cha y'all care that they found whose finger wound up in that Wendy's chili? What a mixed up set of priorities we have.
Now, if they could only find that vanful of Satanists that murdered the Modesto fertilizer salesdude wife.
It's no wonder Islam is spreading. Their women are mothers, ours are whores.
when the word 'harlot' entered English, it referred to masterless men-at-arms who were the plague of every medieval city: because, by definition, they had killed and were unafraid of death...
later the word was transferred onto the women who serviced these men...
just sayin...
Perjoratives follow power. I.e., those with the least power, bear the burden of the perjoratives.
Sh*t runs downhill, IOW.
filkertom,
IIRC, we have St. Paul and St. Jerome to blame, mostly.
who else thinks that the kind of man ('cause few women can really endorse this) who believes in this kind of system is essentially one who fell hard for some girl as a teen and was rejected, and he never matured beyond that point?
Well, yeah....
"And I try to not to show up at the door when her boyfriend calls with the Bowie knife and chainsaw...."
Hmm. We need to work on Monsieur, what with him keeping the Ramset of Virtue close by at all times and appointing NTodd guardian when he's unavailable.
Why is it that power and sexuality are always intertwined? I'm not a scholar in the humanities, but my own observation is that throughout Western civilization, sex and power have always been intermingled to at times a deadly degree.
I believe that all wingnuts should be required by law to mandate this for their children.
Also from the same site...
Daddy, What's A Virgin?
Virginity was an inheritance to be brought into a marriage, and the father of the bride was responsible to preserve that inheritance. If a new husband slandered his bride and claimed that she was not a virgin, the bride's father and mother would defend her name and the name of their family. They would present the evidence of her virginity to the elders of the city (Deuteronomy 22:15). But if the charge was true, and the woman was not a virgin, then the bride was to be executed in front of her father's house. "But if the thing is true, and evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house. So you shall put away the evil from among you" (Deuteronomy. 22:20-21). Why the doorway to her father's house, rather than her husband's house? Because she had rebelled against her father's authority, and dishonored him.
In scripture it is obvious that daughters are to submit to their father's authority, while the father's responsibility is to protect their daughters.
I'm just waiting until it's open season on these whack jobs. It's not a religious thing. It's a survival thing. Start phucking with my way of life and imposing yours on mine and that's when it becomes personal and serious.
I have always figured that the roots of Christianity being so freaked out by sex are based in the idea of the physical needs and desires of this world distracting the faithful from God. Do you know if that's the case, and, if so, does anyone have any idea how and when it started? Augustine? Rewrites of ancient texts into the Gospels? What?
paul, paul paul. take paul out of xtiananity and it's almost a religion i can get down with. it's obvious to me at least that paul had serious issues with women, and those that found his writings on the meaning and nature of christianity must have been similarly inclined to despise my sex.
in the earliest days of christianity, women were at the heart of the movement. there were plenty of different sects with very different beliefs and interpretations of christs teachings, but the sects that were the most successful were those that were able to convince widows to give them money and shelter and a place to congregate.
in not too much time, a theology of how to incorporate these women into the developing hierarchy of the church was needed. movements relating to virginity and chastity were culturally effective, as sharp contrasts to the establish cult practices found in the worshippers of dionysus and isis. emphasizing sexual "purity" alongside the other denial-oriented values of early christianity provided a firm base for later misogyny, and an antiquity which allowed the later church leaders to firmly proclaim that women didn't deserve authority in the faith, but should always be obedient.
I just watched Ayia, Clan of the Cave Bear on the Sci-fi channel. Neantertals and humans were getting it on with out of wedlock couplings.
Daddy's Girl: Courtship and a Father's Rights
I've been Daddy's girl from Day One. My first word was "Dada." I've always wanted to do what Daddy was doing, go where Daddy was going, read what Daddy was reading, say what Daddy was saying. We have the same sense of humor, preferences, pet peeves, strengths and weak-nesses--even the same allergies. Little wonder people call me "Daddy's Little Clone." I mean, take a look at the picture heading this column! No wonder that, for fairness' sake, in family votes, our two are counted as one.
But does this exhaust the ways in which I might be reckoned "Daddy's girl"? Beyond being an X-chromosome donor, may we think of the "-'s" in "Daddy's" in the possessive sense, and affirm with legitimacy that Daddy is my owner? That "my heart belongs to Daddy" is certainly true. But do daughters, per se, belong to their Daddies?
The answer to this question will bring us the answer to the propriety of courtship as a model for a daughter's pre-marriage relationship with a prospective suitor. Any man seeking to beg, borrow or steal a daughter's hand without her father's endorsement is seeking to gain, in unlawful ways, "property" not his own. Daughters are Daddy's girls in the objective sense, and this particular daughter rejoices in that truth. I am owned by my father. If someone is interested in me, he should see him.
This might sound harsh. "Ownership" makes some cringe. Okay, okay. So call it "authoritative stewardship." But for many, this is not much better. "What are you talking about? This courtship stuff may be nice (up to a point), and I agree that dating is unwise, riddled as it is with temptations--but hold it a minute there, sister! Are you saying that you're just a piece of property? How could you think of yourself in those terms? You need some serious help with your self-esteem there! Get real! Get with it! This is the 90s!"
Yes, it is grating to our ears. However, let's not dismiss the idea without examining its merits. The Christian worldview, informed by Scripture, functions as our spectacles. Through the Bible, we see the world as it is; and no part of life is exempt from God's governance. We want to live in accord with his law even if it means living in (uncomfortable) opposition to popular culture. Everyone committed to advancing God's kingdom must be prepared to live against the norms of unbelief. Culture and custom which begin with God's word will inescapably conflict with culture which begins with the word of man.
And the word of God teaches that progenitors have certain rights. Let's use that as our major premise and construct a syllogism. Major premise: The creator of something is sovereign over that which he created. Minor premise: God created all things. Conclusion: God is sovereign over all things. This agrees with Scripture: "The earth is the Lord's, and all it contains, the world, and those who dwell in it, for [i.e., because] He has founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the rivers" (Psalm 24:1). God created it; therefore, he has full authority over it.
"IIRC, we have St. Paul and St. Jerome to blame, mostly."
The joy of Catholicism--there's always someone to blame!
Just posted at TradeSports.com:
Odds of either Jenna or notJenna being a virgin - 100 billion to 1 against
Odds of both Jenna and notJenna having abstained from sexual intercourse in the past 24 hours - 100 to 1 against
Personally, I consider the latter to represent an excellent wagering opportunity, since I estimate the 'fair value' odds of neither of the First Daughters getting porked in the past 24 hours to be no worse than 50 to 1 against.
Just remember, you read it here first!
..
What's with this crowd and the Old Testament? I thought they were s'posed to be Xian?
I'm being lectured about dating by a bunch of Old Testamenters?
Where's Christ in all this?
I'm so confused.
Nattering Nabob--I was considering the odds of both Jenna and not Jenna having had abortions the other day.
"Honor killings"? Please, get a grip.
Can't you just make fun of people for having goofy ideas about dating? Is it really necessary bring in the idiotic idea that it will lead to honor killings. That's one slippery slope. It actually makes Santorum's stupid bestiality slippery slope seem reasonable by comparison.
Their women are mothers, ours are whores.
American Taliban -11:18 am
mebbe your woman's a whore...how much do ya charge for her favors? how much do you keep from her take?
there's a word fer ya: pimp/panderer...
CD
I learned read about a tiny gnostic sect in Iraq called Mandeans who regard John the Baptist as their one true prophet, and reject Jesus as a false prophet who distorted the views of John. What is interesting about this is that some of the texts that they preserve have some interesting insight on conflicts in the early Christian movement, which lead me to the same conclusion as yours via Paul and Xtianity. What little is left of the actual words of Jesus (
Good news, though!
The mystery of the Virgin Mary likeness on the Chicago underpass has been solved.
Praise be to large intact hymens!
God is great! Hymens are better.
Long live concrete cherrys!
If Jesus was alive today he would have his own liberal blog, and would periodically post snarky comments here.
told Deborah Hobbs, 40, that her decision to cohabit was a moral and a legal issue.
40!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hello, Fundies? Is it okay if I own property in my own name still? Or does it have to be re-assigned to Bunny-Bunny as my only male relative? Will his wife who loathes me object when I have to take up residence in her guestroom?
Chuy, no wonder nunneries looked attractive.
I can tell you, from first hand experience, that this fundie "abstinence" crusade that is "sweeping" the nation is definitely about promoting abstinence from dating until kids are at least 20.
When they came to my daughter's school, that was the message. "Parents, we strongly encourage you to enforce a no-dating policy, or at a minimum, we suggest that you chaperone your teen's dates. No hand holding should be allowed. Kids are not mature enough to handle the strong urges that lead to sexual activity."
I was at the assembly. I heard it all.
Frankly, I was mortified.
People thought that I was being a bit over zealous in my criticism, but this is precisely what the fundies want ~ to control every aspect of our lives and our decisions about our children by invoking the "Jesus is Lord and his way is the only way" mantra.
I found it scary.
So what alternatives are there to dating? How does one choose a wife? A husband? See related topics below:
Daddy's Girl: Courtship and a Father's Rights
Dating bad. Arranged marriage good.
Damn, this is like pre-Victorian era shit.
.
A good book dealing with concepts of sexuality among Christians from the first century to the early Middle Ages is "The Body and Society: Men, Women, and Sexual Renunciation in Early Christianity" by Peter Brown.
paul, paul paul. take paul out of xtiananity and it's almost a religion i can get down with. it's obvious to me at least that paul had serious issues with women, and those that found his writings on the meaning and nature of christianity must have been similarly inclined to despise my sex.
Isn't it dumb all of this is because of a self-loathing fag?
Stone the impure! Stone them, I say!
Dating bad. Arranged marriage good.
Damn, this is like pre-Victorian era shit.
It's all about the property.
But, being mostly Scots, we have rather different viewpoints about that for women. Traditional don't you know.
Chuy, what idiots. Vicki why didn't you stand up and start screaming at the assembly?
Ba'al--he's already done a couple of drivebys.
At the heart of these creeps is a total lack of empathy. Part of what so completely creeped me out with Dr. Hager's behavior was the total abandonment on his part of trying to please his partner. It was all about pleasing himself. His wife might well have been the slab of liver described in "Portnoy's Complaint" or the mule on Horsely's farm. The women in turn, seem to redirect their passion to their religion. Or shopping. And while we are on the subject, do the women all go to the same hairdreser? I mean really.
Vicki--is your daughter in a public school? Was the name of Jesus invoked?
In CA, that would be lawsuit material.
Well, I could sit here all day, but I really do need to plant the lilac bushes in between rain storms.
It's now or never.
Just wanted to weigh in on another excellent post by Avedon.
These people make me ill.
RMJ, NYMary, CD -- thanks. It's been a long time since I read the Bible; I guess I'll get back to it soon, keeping Paul and Jerome in mind.
Hugs to you all, and Cheney these morons up their stupid Santorums.
Chuy, no wonder nunneries looked attractive.
GWPDA, Irate Scholar | 11:32 am
dr.J: i know you know this
nunneries, back in the day, were places to warehouse inconveniently fertile female raltives of the male aristocrats, to prevent them from bearing offspring who might challenge the primo genitur rules by which the aristocracy preserved their perqs...
usually the first thing a 'christian' king woiuld, after suppressing the ancient religions of the people and killing off all their advocates, would be to build a nunnery in which to install his fertile sisters...i think in fact that is possibly the derivation of our habits (punny!) of clerical address...
Vicki - to judge by the long list of Repugs and fundies who have gotten caught with child pornography, having sex with minors and on and on, I'd say they are just trying to save those hymens for themselves.
Just make sure they pay top dollar for the privilege of breaking it.
[/sarcasm]
"But the fact is that dating was entirely unknown at the time the Scriptures were given to us."
So were computers and the Internets (tm). The Fundies should stop using both to spread their bullshit and scribble this crap out on parchment instead.
Who or what owns and propagates bibletopics.com, the source of the dating memo? I could find no identification on their site. Could even be a spoof (though I doubt it). All rather curious
People thought that I was being a bit over zealous in my criticism, but this is precisely what the fundies want ~ to control every aspect of our lives and our decisions about our children by invoking the "Jesus is Lord and his way is the only way" mantra.
Yeah, and the sexual repression they're advocating will lead to much more homosexual sex among teenage males.
Jim--the Chalcedon Foundation, which is a Christian Dominionist movement started by Rushdoony.
" I am owned by my father. If someone is interested in me, he should see him.
You know, an ex boyfriend of mine went to see my dad at his office when I was in high school, and told him that if Dad would give me to him, he would "straighten me out" (I was a hippie by then.)
My dad was furious. He told the guy that he couldn't give me to anyone - I didn't belong to him or to anyone else.
What was with Mary's biological father anyway? He let's his daughter run off with some dude all pregnant n stuff. Why wasn't she stoned to death as per the bibilical instructions???
I'm not a Catholic but I think they made up some story about Mary's mother giving virgin birth to Mary, so maybe there weren't any male father figures at all in that whole lineage (other than G-d). Just a bunch of women who somehow got pregnant, but not the way everone else in the history of mankind did.
Well, how conveeeeenient!
Dating was invented within the last 200 years. Prior to that time, marriage always involved much more input from the parents, and "trial relationships" leading up to marriage (what we now call "dating") were not conducted at all.
Yeah, how much can you afford to pay in dowry. Highest bidder gets the daughter. Tough shit if she detests her nasty husband to be.
Tena -- sarcasm? I didn't think you were being sarcastic at all. The proliferation of these freaks could fuel a few doctoral theses on sociopathy, I'm sure.
BDM -- that's what happens when you perpetuate the three-thousand-year-old ravings of illiterate goat-herders. Some days I'm surprised we've got electric lights.
My dad was furious. He told the guy that he couldn't give me to anyone - I didn't belong to him or to anyone else.
Tena
-----
Your dad was a failure as a father.
Vicki - to judge by the long list of Repugs and fundies who have gotten caught with child pornography, having sex with minors and on and on, I'd say they are just trying to save those hymens for themselves.
I would guess most of society's many perversions throughout history is because of religious sexual repression.
Totally weird and scary op ed in the WaPo--by Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council.
It's All About Theocracy
filkertom (Love your song in the lower thread, by the way) - I didn't want Vicki to somehow get the wrong idea about what I was saying -
Plus the trolls and namestealers are around.
Good morning, moonbats.
Public School, indeed.
The woman, Pam Stenzel, mentioned that she was a Christian and that she had graduated from Liberty University (made the hair on the back of my neck stand up), but she didn't directly mention Jesus. Although the smell of Jesus salts was all around the auditorium. You knew what it was about with them having to specifically say so.
Here is her web site:
Pam Stenzel, scaring children out of sex for the love of Jesus
Anyway, I wrote the principal and told her this program had no business in a public school because it so clearly stunk of Christian right wing propaganda.
Incog is right--sexism = discrimination against GLBTs.
My favorite piece of trivia. Bundling. During colonial times, because of the long distances involved, courters would frequently spend the night at their beloved's home. Slept in the same bed (along with other family members) and snuggled or bundled. At the very least, I'm sure many a courter left the next day with sticky pants.
Fellow right-wingers: if you're wife won't put out or do kinky stuff, no big: just drug her and do whatever you want to her while she's asleep. You can even put it in her dirtbox. It's okay as long as you're a Republican and say you love Jesus.
It's all about the property.
Yup that's the Buybull-Fascists. Women are property. It's ok to sodomize them against their will. Men get a dowry (including a nice young mule) when they select their wife.
.
Are we also going back to sex with children which was common most of biblical history and advocated in religious text?
"In their zeal to preserve an imperial judiciary, liberals have taken abuse of the confirmation process to a new low. The way out is to vote on each nominee on his or her merits."
Totally weird and scary op ed in the WaPo--by Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council.
It's All About Theocracy
Sallyh, La Poissoniere 11:41 am
anybody in a position to subtly trip this mutherfocker under a Metroliner? It would be a public fucking service of incalculable worth
"Honor killings"? Please, get a grip.
Did you read the post linked to? Did you read the description of what happened to daughters who were found not to be virgins from Deuteronomy? Did you notice whether the writer of the underlying piece condemned that attitude?
I'll give you a hint. While talking about the importance of girls' virginity, the author of the piece didn't seem to have any problems with the Old Testament manner of dealing with "bad girls." At no point in his essay did he so much as say, "Naturally, we wouldn't go that far today, but . . . "
Yeah, I'd say that this is the first step toward honor killings.
Dating is so 20th century. Nowadays we hire our dates on the basis of their imaginary military background to ask us fake questions in public and so they can sneak in and out of our house to top us.
Get with the times, people.
Incog is right--sexism = discrimination against GLBTs.
Sallyh, La Poissoniere
For a hetero male, usually white, today's world is a world gone mad because of the upsetting of old power orders they used to dominate. So the first thing they attempt to do is control the sex of women and gays. They will move on from there.
Tena -- Comprende. Oh, and, OT but mildly amusing in a must-get-some-Raid way, Gordo has discovered my blog, apparently, and keeps leaving insults about my weight. Sad. I can become less fat, but he'll never be less stupid and rude.
It's one thing to proclaim this crap on a website, another to try to enforce it in your own family.
If you've got a daughter who's very sheltered (home-schooled, no doubt), very stupid and very young, you might be able to marry her off to some equally clueless Bible-banger (with assinine parents and HUGE issues of his own). But the best you can hope for, over time, is a monumentally resentful divorcee with kids and no job skills moving back in with you.
Isn't it dumb all of this is because of a self-loathing fag?
ΤΏΤ | Email |
if he existed in any way like as is described in the texts we have now, i think christ was at the very least bi and possibly gay. everything about him is so sensual, he hangs out with a great crew of adoring boys and is politically radical, he's got a set of women groupies who never intimate any kind of sexual desire for him, there's all that kissing and touching christ is fond of, he likes parties and wine and fish, he was sort of a 'mama's boy'...
So were computers and the Internets (tm). The Fundies should stop using both to spread their bullshit and scribble this crap out on parchment instead.
Big Daddy Mars | Email | Homepage | 05.14.05 - 11:37 am | #
BDM- heh. no, you've got to take it all the way, my brother. only the priests were allowed to know how to read and write in biblical times, and they were the only ones the kings authorized to collect and distribute written materials that were nonaccounting related.
so if the fundies really want to live like the OT commands, they'll stop writing, reading and being online altogether. suits me fine!
ravings of illiterate goat-herders
I'm gonna have to remember that one, that's good.
History of sexuality:
Again, in medieval times, and certainly before, young girls were often married before the onset of menses because that was the only way to absolutely assure (well, absent a too-solicitous daddy/king) their virginity...
Read M. Foucault: "'Nineteenth-century 'bourgeois' society-and it is doubtless still with us-was a society of blatant and fragmented perversion. And this was not by way of hypocrisy, for nothing was more manifest and more prolix, or more manifestly taken over by discourses and institutions. Not because, having tried to erect too rigid or too general a barrier against sexuality, society succeeded only in giving rise to a whole perverse outbreak and a long pathology of the sexual instinct. At issue, rather, is the type of power it brought to bear on the body and on sex. In point of fact, this power had neither the form of the law, nor the effects of the taboo. On the contrary, it acted by multiplication of singular sexualities. It did not set boundaries for sexuality; it extended the various forms of sexuality, pursuing them according to lines of indefinite penetration. It did not exclude sexuality, but included -it in the body as a mode of specification of individuals. It did not seek to avoid it; it attracted its varieties by means of spirals in which pleasure and power reinforced one another. It did not set up a barrier; it provided places of maximum saturation. It produced and determined the sexual mosaic. Modern society is perverse, not in spite of its puritanism or as if from a backlash provoked by its hypocrisy; it is in actual fact, and directly, perverse.'
Michel Foucault (1990) The History of Sexuality vol 1. An introduction. Trans. Robert Hurley. Harmondsworth: Penguin, p.47. French original 1976.
WOMEN Don't waste energy faking orgasms. Most men couldn't give a shit anyway and you could use the saved energy to vacuum the house after you've been banged.
footloose -- go for it. It's a paraphrase of someone here (can't remember who, sorry) from a few months ago. It just struck such a chord with me, y'know?
See, it's like this.
I walk on these feet. I see out of these eyes. I put food on our table with these hands. I believe in Christ's words -- notably the Beatitudes -- with this mind and I give blood and plasma from these veins, as well as money from the labor of this corporeal body, for those in need. Charity begins at home; chastity is not a burden but a measure of the joy in my marriage.
But if I'd been a novice idiot raped on my bridal night -- and my best friend lived that nightmare thanks to her good Christian upbringing -- I'd hate all men with a passion to make Limbaugh's feminazi-paragons pikers. That I guarandamntee you. It's no place for amateurs, being a wife.
So that makes this MY body and MY life. I was blessed to have a Dad who knew that, too -- and told me to be careful, but if I got in trouble he'd be there to help. He lived up to that until the day he died. I love him still, and miss him every day.
If more men like my Dad were still out there, there wouldn't be so many wingers.
usually the first thing a 'christian' king woiuld, after suppressing the ancient religions of the people and killing off all their advocates, would be to build a nunnery in which to install his fertile sisters...i think in fact that is possibly the derivation of our habits (punny!) of clerical address...
WoodyGuthriesGuitar (aka...) | Email |
woody, this is the habit of peoples of all times, all over the world. the people that i study are the first writers, and a lot of what we have includes letters from daughters of powerful clans holed up in what we'd call a nunnery, praying and being holy for the "sake of the family" while conveniently keeping themselves from marrying the wrong upstart.
what's interesting in the Babylonian example: these women could have children if they wanted, the only catch was that said kids would never inherit. they could be adopted by other families, and the women who had them weren't disowned or relieved of the property they owned in their own name. but then again, the babylonians had women judges and CFOs, so i guess we've got a ways to go before we catch up to them.
Honor killings may be down the line some ways, but these threats are real and immediate:
1. Community property laws. In CA, community property until 1975 was under the custody and control of the husband.
2. Title IX.
3. Comprehensive sex education for members of both sexes.
4. Greater legalized intolerance of homosexuality, transgender and bisexuality.
5. Driver's licenses for young women.
6. Scholarships and grants--discriminating against women would be legal and there would be no recourse.
7. Sexual harassment could not be claimed.
And on and on.
Scary enough for anyone?
Re: Illiterate Goatherds
if Neil Horsley is to be believed, they were illiterate goatFUCKERS, which makes their ravings all the more suspect, imho...
Are we also going back to sex with children which was common most of biblical history and advocated in religious text?
ΤΏΤ
I believe that the Old Testament Law allows parents to murder rebellious children. Get ready...
breakfast time...
LOL! This is the way I was raised. The first time I went on a date, I was 16 and a half years old. Never been kissed. (and I was kinda pretty too) I thought it was time. My mom caught me in full lip lock because I was to be returned to my Father's domicile at 9:00pm sharp and I was just outside the front of my house in the car. I was grounded for the rest of my teen-age years. I heard the lectures about how I would be damaged goods if I lost my virginity but I never bought into any of that bull. They seem to forget that girls have raging hormones too and with the world about to end in 1975, to be followed by a sex free, "perfect" world for 1000 years, I was determined to lose it as quickly as possible. There's lots of ways to get around a permanent, "date free" existence.
I assume the biblical prohibitions against dating are based in part on animal behavior. Male animals typically do not spend energy and resources rearing young that is not their own genetic material. There was no way of knowing 3000 years ago whether your children were really yours. Now, with genetic testing, we can know definitively. It keeps everyone honest. Maybe that's what the Fundies don't like. It makes MEN more culpable and responsible for the deed. I suppose they would prefer acting like animals.
if he existed in any way like as is described in the texts we have now, i think christ was at the very least bi and possibly gay.
I think Paul was the self-hating homo, not Jesus.
Molly - But the best you can hope for, over time, is a monumentally resentful divorcee with kids and no job skills moving back in with you.
It's the fundie way.
That is actually what has happened in the FLDS, where young teenage girls have been married off to 60 year old religious leaders with multiple teenage wives. Some of them actually have managed to run away with their children to relatives who would help them rather than just give them back.
That's really the pattern the fundies are trying to encourage. Not necessarily multiple wives, but those old bastards salivate endlessly at the idea of 14 year old virgins. It's disgusting.
Many scholartes are not sure that Paul is the problem -- much of what is attributed to him is later (I & II Timothy & Titus certainly -- Ephesians & Colossians probably) -- of the genuine Pauline material it is sometimes hard to know when Paul is speaking & when he is quoting his opponents to refute them (with rabbinical arguements that seem odd & unconvincing to us)
Certainly much of the early Christian leadership was female (though not "The Twelve Apostles") -- the shift to patriarchy helped make Christianity more acceptable to the prevailing cultural norms (I have discussed all this at some length with the Episcopal Bishop of Indianapolis -- she agrees with me -- Benedict XVI -- probably not)
Dobson in the Boston Globe?
Perkins in the Washington Post?
WTF?
I think Paul was the self-hating homo, not Jesus.
ΤΏΤ
================
I always figgered it was Ringo actually.
I can't believe no one has yet mentioned how identical this is to Islamic customs of virginity till marriage, and arranged marriages. Why don't the fundies like Muslims when they have the same philosophy?
Sallyh ~
Very scary.
I can't believe we're being catapulted back to the dark ages.
I long for the days when an ERA was being considered. Damn, they should have passed it. It takes thousands of years to build on equal rights for women (and we still aren't there yet), but just 5 short years to watch the snowball grow as it rolls down hill to reverse our rights.
Fuck Bush. Really hard.
Must get back to music. Later, moonbats!
holy toledo! this is an invitation to girl stoning, father daughter incest, and general stupidity...the folks who put this together...now there is crowd worthy of gitmo...
I always figgered it was Ringo actually.
Yeah, Ringo was probably a closet sistah.
I'd love to stay and talk about this, but I have an appointment to get to this morning. I just want to add if no one else has that we should encourage this. Let the morons put ALL their cards on the table. We can't make them look any worse than they do themselves.
filkertom-yeah I do know. I find it ludicrous that 3000 years after the fact, everyone is so screwed up all over the world thanks to a dude they profess to love who was willing to sacrifice his own son. So now we have people going bonkers cos a copy of a book was defiled, prisoners are denied legal advice cos the lawyer is Jewish, and lots of people want to head back to the dark ages or be vaporized. Damn, how about being human. Every time my kids and I part, (they're 18/17) I remind them to be loving, sweet and kind. I'm sure my son kept that in mind when he saw Billy Idol last night.
if Neil Horsley is to be believed
Hell, I believe him. The incredible part about that interview was that he related the anecdote about his past mule-fucking as a way of pointing out to Alan Colmes how out-of-touch Colmes is with Red State America. Stupid effete liberals, what do they know about life on the farm?
The other thing is, they are never gonna get women to stop working. First off, the economy couldn't take the hit. Second, most women who have careers kind of like them.
My typing seems to be even worse than usual this morning
I need a secretary to do my posting on Eschaton threads
I think Paul was the self-hating homo, not Jesus.
ΤΏΤ
I definitely agree with you, Incog, on this.
I think Paul was the self-hating homo, not Jesus.
ΤΏΤ | Email | Homepage |
i got that, incog. it's an interesting contrast, no? one loving (gay?) man who teaches peace and tolerance for all, and another who couldn't love himself long enough to write without such a strong anger it corrupted an entire faith. (unless PA is correct that it's not paul's writing).
sort of like where we're at today, no? self hating closet cases who define foucault's perversion society, and people who believe in tolerance, self determination and charity.
mena, you may just have a point. i always resisted your logic but they are going so far to batshit land maybe its time for the kleig lights...
http://users.frii.com/fli/sp/
A_R..._Betrothal.html
This is a link to an extremely horrifying dominionist type article describing why even 'courtship' is not godly enough.
'd love to stay and talk about this, but I have an appointment to get to this morning. I just want to add if no one else has that we should encourage this. Let the morons put ALL their cards on the table. We can't make them look any worse than they do themselves.
Word, mena. Every time the fundies go public, the public goes "What?!"
Well, I'm glad Avedon posted this. I'm so fucking angry right now that the holes I need to dig to plant those lilacs ought to take a nano second.
Fuckity fuck fuck fuck.
We have got to stop these people ~ Now!
From the Keeping your eye on the prize department: There are only three stories we should be concerned about. If we keep hammering them, these cretins will crawl back under their rocks and continue their snake-handling, misogynist, and immoral ways to themselves. The three are, in case anyone needs reminding:
They stole two elections.
They lied to get us into a war.
They are attacking our Consitution.
Every other story, including the pissant media, is only a distraction.
one loving (gay?) man who teaches peace and tolerance for all, and another who couldn't love himself long enough to write without such a strong anger it corrupted an entire faith. (unless PA is correct that it's not paul's writing).
It is full of irony the same as today. The duelism.
ANNUAL
DATE MY [SKANKY] SISTER PROJECT.
Except it's humor.
I always figgered it was Ringo actually.
Cleveland Bob
Ringo was pretty cheerful about his ambivalent image, IIRC.
"What would you be doing if you weren't playing music?"
"I'd be a hairdresser."
I just always figured that was a code word, like "I'd be a choreographer." I guess I could be wrong, though.
Filkertom,
Re: sex and the churches - read chapters 1 and 2 of "Sexual Personae" - they're not necessarily correct, but definitely food for thought.
You thought the dating thing was scary? Read this, courtesy of the business section of my hometown paper, the LA Times.
Xtianity Invades the Workplace
" the eventual temptation to engage in sex is strong, especially if they happen to be teenagers, still under the roof of their parents"
Yeah, when I moved out and turned 20, I just didn't want to have sex with the girls/women I was dating anymore. Now I'm 40 and I store my penis in a sock drawer. Haven't touched it in years.
/snarkasm
Jesus Christ, fuck all organized religions! They are literal, life-hating insanity!
That ass-raper on the FDA was the last straw for me. THIS CRAP ACTIVELY PROMOTES MENTAL ILLNESS AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE AND PSYCHOSIS.
I have to go to a catholic baptism this evening. Another innocent being about to be steeped in sky-god boogeyman BULLSHIT. I feel like I'm taking part in child abuse.
Vicki,
Take it out on the dandelions, sister!
DWD- although i agree with you, i also kind of don't. the three items you list should have been enough to put a whole mess of rethugs in jail years ago, but whaddyaknow- they're still in power and still shredding the constitution and plotting additional illegal wars.
we've tried, all of us, fighting them with traditional methods and yet we keep finding ourselves facing this kind of dominionist crap. i think mena may have a point, if only because amurkins seem to care about two things: sex and material comfort. the dominionists want to take those things away from them, and if they are informed about that, the sheeple just may awaken from their TV and cheap oil induced slumber.
OWL- that's funny. My cousin advertised for her brother who got divorced after 20 years and he's living happily ever after with a terrific woman who is truly a match made where ever good things are made.
OT:
The Poweer of Nightmares is at Cannes! (and mentioned on cnn!)
http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/...reut/
index.html
As for Ringo, I always got the impression that he'd have been the kind of hairdresser that Warren Beatty was in Shampoo - though not as much of a celebrity hairdresser. Just one who liked to be around women.
John, on the other hand, I believe, was actively bi-sexual.
Take it out on the dandelions
Hey! Over here!!!
OT -
Surpisingly honest headline at CBSNews.com:
U.S. Ally Fires On Its People
.
DWD & Chi-dyke - I think the media is so important that it is second only to election reform. I think it definitely has to be talked about, bitched about and bitched at. As long as the media is lying to the public like they do, we can't get anywhere with informing the public about DWD's other concerns - the elections and the constitution.
We need the 4th estate and right now it is moribund. I think it's extremely important over all to our democracy to get the media back to fulfilling their role as independent arbiters of what the hell is going on.
Sharkbabe,
In lieu of a baptism gift, you could make a donation to these folks:
http://www.catholicworker.org/
They're pretty cool.
CD, I am sorry, I respectfully disagree. Though WE have known these three things for years, I do not believe that the majority of Americans are aware that these three items are undeniably true.
Until we get through to them, there can be no change. I honestly believe that the three items must be put on the agenda everyday - the same way the damned right wingers handle their themes - until something changes. Hammer them till they have to deny them. When they have to deny them, then the evidence may be considered.
There is always a danger in assuming that people are well-informed and intelligent. I personally think that both of those assumptions are unrealistic.
my sister seems uninterested on getting an early start to our home improvement projects this morning...i can't believe i'm blogging uninterrupted for so long.
I feel like I'm taking part in child abuse.
Sharkbabe | Email | Homepage | 05.14.05 - 12:10 pm | #
you are, but the parents are the ones who deserve any blame.
i try to be the voice of reason and logic with families that indocrintate their kids with religion. it's a fun role to play if done right, i just never bring up the topic of religion with the whole family, and instead present myself for questions when i spend time with just the kids. luckily, i don't have too many very religious friends, but the ones i do know who have kids i fully plan on corrupting/enlightening when they reach that rebellious teen phase.
subversion is fun!
This all comes complete with the excuse to start making honor killings of female family members a Christian thing. Really.
This is stupid shit Atrios-- you jackoff. The Deuteronomy (barbaric stoning) example is NOT interpreted literally- but used to state that God says "daughters must submit to their fathers." That's a long way from what you claim.
The problem with these people (and I know many of them personally) is that they are sexual perverts. Like Dr. Laura, the are prudes who are utterly obsessed with sex and can't imagine an interaction or relationship that wasn't revolving entirely around sex.
Of course, horny teenage relationships will invariably be "about sex," but that's not where these people stop. They want to ban "pre-dating" (hanging out in co-ed groups while in your tweens) as well as ANY friendship between married women and other men. Dating is just the tip of the iceberg, here.
Tena, you know I do not disagree that the media is the problem. I am just despairing of making any inroads into something that is obviously bought and paid for. I believe if we can raise these three points, they will HAVE to do their jobs. That at least, is my belief.
Sharkbabe--another good one is:
Catholics for a Free Choice
Don't you first have to prove the bible is the unabridged work of the invisible cloud being (god) in order to use it a recipe for morality? Has anyone proved the bible is other than a bunch of myths? And why does Ann Coulter have an adam's apple? That is what I want to know.
sex and material comfort. the dominionists want to take those things away from them, and if they are informed about that, the sheeple just may awaken from their TV and cheap oil induced slumber.
chicago dyke
I sometimes though with this current tug-of-war we should just let go the rope. Let them have it. That would would really wake the 'Murkans. My fear is they're so stoopid, they would stampede us.
though = thought
tena- i agree, but i feel that at this point, the media is a lost cause. the whores have no shame, most of them are happily ensconced in the DC or NYC/LA bubbleworld and have fat portfolios, some are even true believers. they won't ever change or admit they are wrong, with a few notable exceptions.
if i have any media related project, it's getting people to turn it off. more and more i see all forms of modern media, even this one, as addictions that are meant to keep people's asses planted firmly on the couch, while civilization is dismantled one amendment at a time. although i'm guilty of a few buffys now and again, i can say with honesty that it's been years since i've seen a broadcast or movie with such value that i thought it worth recommending over a book or article on the same subject. don't get me started on the elements of propaganda so inherent in practically every video production made today.
Definitely written by someone who favors father-daughter incest.
No doubt in my mind.
These Bronze Age customs were actually practiced in the home of Jim Ryun -- failed Olympian and now my brain-dead Kansas congressman. Any man wishing to date one of his blond daughters had to meet with daddy first and prove their Xian worth.
By the way, ole Jim is known to all as an absolute moron. He once dropped by my office unannounced. I was hardly prepared for an interview but nonetheless his chief staffer had to right answers to basic questions on a tablet, which the dipshit would read.
However, there is hope. Last November, he barely beat an unknown, under-funded Democrat. The latest monkey business from his co-religious slack jaws on the K. Board of Ed (these idiots aren't popular but get elected in Republican Kansas because nobody but fundies vote in GOP primaries and the state's farmers and seniors are loathe to vote for Democrats) and Social Security should finish him off in 2006. Keep an eye on his Kansas 2nd District because this is a seat to gain.
chicago dyke - I hear you. Mr. Tena is the youngest of 3 kids in his family. We are the youngest aunt and uncle to our nieces and nephews. When they were younger, everyone would come to town and Mr. Tena and I would take the nieces and nephews out to dinner.
I've often wondered what his brother's kids told their parents about those evenings. His brother is married to a fundie who converted him, too. Raised those kids as fundies. We used to take them down to Lower Greenville to eat and afterwards we'd walk along the street and look in store windows.
There's a condom place down there that provoked a very interesting conversation one night when the nephews were adolescents. I recall emphasizing how important safe sex was because of AIDS and STDs. I'm surprised my fundie sister in law is still speaking to us. 
Sharkbabe,
One more!
http://www.paxchristiusa.org/
(Ah, Archbishop Romero. The nutjobs in the Vatican didn't even look for his killers.)
Take it out on the dandelions, sister!
NYMary/Lissadell
NYMary, you must have ESP! If you only knew how many dandelions live on my property, you'd understand why I say that!
My front yard, on some days, is more yellow than green!
What I've heard is that they would elect a corn-pone Southern facist as president.
Ultimately it all boils down to power. It is not simply a matter of morals, sex and bible, it is who controls the genetic supply line.
As long as women have independence, they can say No. As Men, no matter how powerful we become, under that scenario, we must submit to and appease women in some form else the underlying biological drive to push our little bits to the next generation are stymied. In a sense, women can determine if a man continues to exist by denying him progeny.
But for the hard line religious fundie guy, it is humiliating to be all powerful and then be forced to pander to a supposedly weak and servile creature.
Patriarchy with all its implications is not unique to the Christians, societies have been kicking away Matriarchy far longer. It has just been repackaged and marketed under a different name.
If we continue to fight them, we're all like frogs slowly beginning to boil in the water.
DWD - I agree that those three issues are paramount, but I don't see how we get the media to pay attention to them without getting the media to change. They've known about the questions about the elections all along. They won't talk about it.
So what do you suggest? Yes, we can inform people, and that's the whole point of having a blog, really. But I do think that in a democracy, the media is so important that we cannot afford to give up on it. And some of the more powerful voices on the internet are getting through to them, finally, I think.
Damn Wind Change, I am not sure of you intention with that post, but I seemed to have conjured up ladies in black leather - demanding ladies . . . .
But for the hard line religious fundie guy, it is humiliating to be all powerful and then be forced to pander to a supposedly weak and servile creature.
I hear it helps if you wait until they're asleep....
"I am owned by my father. See him if you're interested in me."
I have a teenage daughter. I admit that I wouldn't mind hearing her say that. Things I am more likely to hear:
"Hi Brian. I'm Jennifer Ellison, and I've come here to rock your world."
"You're rich, man! You'll never have to work again!"
"Vice-president Cheney heard the Senate's verdict as stoically as he bore the House's finding of impeachment, while President Bush crawled into a fetal position and bawled. The two former executives are scheduled to be flown to The Hague tomorrow."
"Fuck it. 110 miles per hour is just fine on this road. There's nobody around and it's not raining or anything. Here's your license and registration back. Sorry to bother you."
Until we get through to them, there can be no change. I honestly believe that the three items must be put on the agenda everyday - the same way the damned right wingers handle their themes - until something changes. Hammer them till they have to deny them. When they have to deny them, then the evidence may be considered.
you are 100% correct. but the media will never do this for us, only we can be the Hammers/voices.
the right wing figured out a long time ago that they can get farther on fear and hatred than logic and reason, and that it's cheaper and easier too. so they've spent the last ~40 years priming the amurkin public to respond emotionally instead of critically. they've absorbed the media into their project, and denunded the traditional methods of opposition with nuance and thoughtfulness (protests=focus group).
we can take a page from their book however. today's theocratic fascists didn't start at the top, they started at the local level. school boards and city managers and state reps. letter writing campaigns and high sentimental value boycotts. think tanks and pseudoacademic institutes.
it's a tall order, but this is what we have to be doing if we're going to restore american democracy. it may not be possible.
Later folks- Have a great afternoon!
f we continue to fight them, we're all like frogs slowly beginning to boil in the water.
ΤΏΤ |
What's the alternative?
And is this consistent with what you were saying earlier about letting them reveal themselves? I don't know - I'm asking.
DWD
Well there went a serious remark out the window.
Vicki | Email | Homepage | 05.14.05 - 11:57 am | #
Sideways with a rusty chainsaw...
it may not be possible.
chicago dyke
I don't think it is. That's why every angle I look at it, it's over.
And is this consistent with what you were saying earlier about letting them reveal themselves? I don't know - I'm asking.
Tena
I think they're going to destroy the American Experiment and we will face inevitable decline as a nation.
Take it out on the dandelions, sister!
NYMary/Lissadell
NYMary, you must have ESP! If you only knew how many dandelions live on my property, you'd understand why I say that!
My front yard, on some days, is more yellow than green!
Vicki | Email
just 'cause i'm in a dominating the thread mood today: why is this bad?
i know social convention and neighborhood pressure teaches us that the brilliant yellow of the dandelion is unacceptable, but i find them lovely. if i ever own or are responsible for a yard, i'm going to fill it with flowers. all the flowers that i can make grow, wild and uncoordinated and riotous.
i find it somewhat ironic that as we discuss control of women and fecundity, we at the same time apply extreme principles to nature, itself understood to be essentially female.
Wind Change,
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be snarky. The demonization of powerful women has been going on for so long that, it seems, no matter how disempowered a woman is, she's still too powerful. I guess that's because she has the power to say no to sex.
The logic of this (aside from the father-daughter incest thing, which is absolutely its logical extension) is that rape is just fine, as long as her dad says it's okay. And that Hager was completely within his rights. And Bolton, too.
things are progressing exactly the way that i expect them to. the conservatives become more and more radical as time goes on.
bring it on, i say.
a good look at these people will scare the bejesus out of about 60 to 65% of the populace.
the more radical the republicans become the better, i say.
I heard some wingnut on NPR the other day describe the US as a 'postdemocratic' nation.
I'm not sure what that means, but I don't think I like the sound of it.
Gads, all this talk about sex. I guess if they can't engage in it, the next best thing is to talk about. You just know some of them are getting their jollies thinking and writing about sex all the time. Gay sex, straight sex, sex before marriage, in marriage, with animals. By yourself.
"are," "am," what's the difference.
must be time for cereal.
CD,
The main reason for us to control dandelions is Thers's allergies, for what it's worth. It's a losing battle, though.
The other thing is, they are never gonna get women to stop working. First off, the economy couldn't take the hit. Second, most women who have careers kind of like them.
QL in NY
Don't forget all them red state bible thumpers workin' at Wal-Mart couldn't afford to feed their hordes of kiddies without the wife working.
flory,
I had a student in my class the other night tell us all he was a Promise Keeper. When pressed re: women working, he admitted that his wife did, "but I'd love it if she wouldn't. Of course, we'd lose the house."
CD, Thanks, you said it better that I did. We have to keep it up: hammering it daily. Attack attack attack: until we move the beast.
I am no messiah, but I do know that until we become united in our theme: there can be no change.
Just keep hammering till we get it heard everywhere!
I think they're going to destroy the American Experiment and we will face inevitable decline as a nation.
ΤΏΤ
Well, I'd agree they are contributing to our decline and I'd agree about the decline. I don't think it's really the fundies so much as insane economic policy that is pushing the decline. When we went from a society with a production economy to one with a retail/consumer economy, we sowed the seeds of decline.
Culturally, I think the fundies are at their last gasp. I think contemporary Americans are not about to just roll over and hand civil liberties to the God-botherers.
Contemporary Americans are way more apt to hand over civil liberties to the government if there is another big terrorist attack.
NYMary/Lissadel
My response to DWD was said in humor, I figured it would "engender" a few quips.
Bit of a disclosure here...
Just realized by the way my handle is screwed up. I was playing with Google transalations the other night.
EkCenTriK
eccentric
translated to Japanese comes out 風変り.
(You may see blocks if your browser can't handle the Kanji.
When I translate it back,
it comes out Wind Change. I found that interesting and have been playing with it a bit.
NYMary:
Really does serve as the camel's nose for the fundies. All those wives out there in the workplace talking to non-fundies, thinking for themselves - can't have that.
What I find interesting is how surprised people are about this.
All three of these religions worship the same god.
They both sprung up from judean values.
Although some christian groups tend to believe that the muslim god is not jehova, yahwe, whatever, but rather a pagan god, and many muslims seem to think their god is the same as the jewish god, but that they were inspired by god prior to the hebrews, etc, whatever, the facts are that they all spring from the same root god.
So it only naturally supposes that the values are the same and that whatever happens in islam that we condemn will also have some similarities in christianity. As much as they try to deny it, the truth hurts. The subjet about honor killings existing in both the bible and the koran seems to make any attempts at contesting this a moot point.
So it might be wise if started rejecting any wall exists to divide the two religions and just consider them all the same. Both have thier own prophet/messiah which is the cornerstone of their faith, and they all spring from judean origins so maybe we should just paint them with the same brush?
I really don't care eithe way since the irony is that some christians consider Mohammad to be a child molesting pervert, and I consider christianity to be a homosexual death cult. Strangely enough what so few christians know, and those on the right that do try to hide it, that the koran has a chapter which discusses jesus as a prophet, and is revered for being so. So how christians can reject islam when islamic faith teaches that jesus was a prophet?
Ohhhhh, because he was actually the messiah. Ahhhh! That's it!
MYOB'
.
Tena--what I see is an unholy alliance between unfettered capitalism and theocratic 'moralism' that is going to blow up in their faces. It has to equilibrate. There's no way they can disobey the laws of thermodynamics forever, if they hope to keep on breathing.
When life hands you dandelions, make wine(or dandelion greens).
NYMary--
Agree that Romero was a great saint -- always wanted to see that movie -- my friend Tim Vivian used it in his religion class
Need to take a siesta now -- later moonbats (& play nice -- remember -- the perfect is the enemy of the good & the Repukes are the bad guys -- come to think of it -- our only chance may be that they turn on each other)
Are Repuke women now obselete?
Do their men prefer "wives" with four feet?
Ladies, please don't despair.
Democrats are aware:
Human pussy just cannot be beat.
-by Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council.
I liked him better in Psycho. Oh.
Culturally, I think the fundies are at their last gasp. I think contemporary Americans are not about to just roll over and hand civil liberties to the God-botherers.
Tena, we're going to know most of human history which has been been dealt with quickly, with short shrift not given to human rights and law and order.
he hangs out with a great crew of adoring boys and is politically radical, he's got a set of women groupies who never intimate any kind of sexual desire for him, there's all that kissing and touching christ is fond of, he likes parties and wine and fish, he was sort of a 'mama's boy'...
Single in his 30s? Close to his mother? Sounds like a lot of my Jewish friends.
I hear, ya Woody.
They both sprung up from judean values.
according to some accounts, they were only Judean later...
from certain genetic evidence it appears that Judaism arose somewhere in the steppes of central asia and spread through the wanderings of the herderfolk who adhered to it...
apparently they had been pushed south, into the northern reaches of the middle East (Ur, Iraq, home of Abraham) by about 4000 years ago by agriculture, which impeded and infact eventually obliterated the nomadic tradition...
i think this view is held by both Paul Shepard (eco-biologist, who coined th term 'human ecology', and Dan Quinn of Ishmael fame--and is parenthetically why i think Quinn is an unannounced acolyte of Shepard's thinking).,..
SallyH - thank you. I totally agree with you. It is going to blow up, it's blowing up now and the fundies are going to find themselves, I believe, ultimately reviled and disliked intensely by the general public.
We cannot keep this up - that is plain.
Unfettered capitalism doesn't work - we know that. We've seen what happens - 1929 is what happens. Same with the fundie moralizing. We had the same fucking situation with Prohibition. It never lasts.
rickey- you're sick. really, really funny, but sick in the best way. 'four feet," LOL.
This is all of a piece with that Washington Post article yesterday about women in Iraq in combat. Basically, you have radical conservatives requiring the Army and Marines to "attach" women to support combat units rather than "assign" them to the units. Bush says on 11 January, "No women in combat" in a speech. In Iraq, women and men alike say, paraphrase, "He's full of shit. We couldn't do our jobs here if we didn't have women in combat. They're in convoys, they're medics, they're getting shot at, and they're doing a good job. They should be assigned, in mass, at the very least, to support companies in combat battalions."
It's all about ideology. It's all they've got, these people.
Can anyone find out who is behind this bible topics site? Please e-mail.
OWL- that's funny. My cousin advertised for her brother who got divorced after 20 years and he's living happily ever after with a terrific woman who is truly a match made where ever good things are made.
footloose | Email | Homepage | 05.14.05 - 12:12 pm | #
Good things do happen for decent people.
"I liked him better in Psycho. Oh.
pseudonymous in nc "
But considering the underlying tones, it has a pretty interesting convergence factor.
But considering the underlying tones, it has a pretty interesting convergence factor.
Somewhere out there, there's a namesake Anthony Hopkins starting up a fundie whackjob vaginas-are-satan's-squeezebox organisation.
according to some accounts, they were only Judean later...
from certain genetic evidence it appears that Judaism arose somewhere in the steppes of central asia and spread through the wanderings of the herderfolk who adhered to it...
i'll take a link for that if one's available.
personally, i think it's foolish to talk about jews in genetic terms. what i was taught is that basically, the ME is one long story of the goat herders vs. the wall builders. you get some tribe that gets tired of wandering, a string a bad herding years, whatever, and they camp out by the nearest walled city. sometimes, they're invited in, and assimlate with the existing people and cultures. sometimes, they're not, and violence ensues and a new dynasty of wall builders if founded. at every step of the process, one group of priests composes pious mythology to justify the change, and another demonizes the events with their own interpretation of mythological facts.
in the case of the "ancient jews" i think it's really important to remember that in the scheme of things, they weren't ever really that major or important when compared to their more organized neighbors like the egyptians or babylonians. and they lost a lot, and were regularly forcibly relocated from cities under their control. the bible is a fun story to read, but contains little acurate military or cultural history. i question the date at which jews are assumed to have understood themselves as a unique people, on the basis of scripture itself as well as archaeology. jewish identity seems to me to be a rather late contruct.
Definitely written by someone who favors father-daughter incest.
No doubt in my mind.
babydeebie
BINGO!!
That "Daddy's Girl" part of the article sent off all sorts of alarm bells in my head as well.
Daddy's Girl has some issues she is not facing, ya think?
Rival groups of insurgents also are fighting among themselves in the nearby town of Qaim, trading mortar, rocket and machine gun fire almost nightly, Pool said. Residents acknowledged fighting in Qaim began before the U.S. offensive, characterizing it as tribal clashes.
Yes, it's call a "civil war," got it MSM? Iraq is coming apart at the seams.....
FILKERTOM:"I have always figured that the roots of Christianity being so freaked out by sex are based in the idea of the physical needs and desires of this world distracting the faithful from God."
One of the writers/sources of the Torah known as "J" wrote very approvingly of procreation as God's way of fighting death and disorder.
The punitive stuff comes mostly from a priestly source, P, and the several Deuteronomy sources.
Richard Elliot Friedman has written several good books about Bible sources and you can find [attaturk == on] out a little more here: http://radamisto.blogspot.com/20...five-
books.html [attaturk == off]
i'll take a link for that if one's available.
sorry, CD: no linkee...it's a vestige of a recollection...there's that cancer research on the ashkenazim which seems to put their heritable origins out in the georgian steppe? iirc, but i probably don't...
have you read Ishmael? the section, in the middle on the exegesis of the pentateuch?
plausible, if probably inexact in specifics...
.
it's fun to play words with you, btw...
apparently they had been pushed south, into the northern reaches of the middle East (Ur, Iraq, home of Abraham) by about 4000 years ago by agriculture, which impeded and infact eventually obliterated the nomadic tradition...
I'd be careful about Abraham and Ur, the anachronisms are just too thick (wrong cities, missing cities, domesticated camels 1,000 years before there were any, etc.).
As for the nomadic tradition, the Judeans who produced the OT narrative were actually part of a transhumance tradition, and moved back and forth between the Canaanite cities depending on whether times were good or bad.
Oh, and they were also polytheists...
.
FILKERTOM:"I have always figured that the roots of Christianity being so freaked out by sex are based in the idea of the physical needs and desires of this world distracting the faithful from God."
...
The punitive stuff comes mostly from a priestly source, P, and the several Deuteronomy sources.
It also comes from 1,000+ years of monasticism being the ideal of Christianity. Even priests (not required to be celebate until the eleventh century) were on the outside looking in.
Married Christians were second class Christians until the invention of a sacrament of marriage in the early thirteenth century.
Prior to that, you were serious about your faith, you broke up your marriage and entered a monastery. All this "sanctity of marriage" crap is just a cargo-cult improvisation, kinda like the Cult of the Fetus we're dealing with now.
.
Tena--Might your S-in-L be secretly relieved? She gets to indulge her anti-sex shtick, as fundies will, but without the common fundie consequence: Her kids' ignorance of things they need to know.
And she can blame/thank Naughty Aunt Tena. (1)
(1) There's your porn star name, right there.
wolf-man - Yep, it's a civil war and eventually the MSM is going to have to say the fucking magic words.
Funny how most of what the real experts, like Prof. Cole, said all along is what is happening.
The neo-cons are fucking braindead. Why do people insist on thinking that lying utopians have a clue about what the hell they are doing? At least Bill Maher got off that goddamned track, finally, last night.
Eventually, the MSM is going to have to acknowledge reality or else just turn in their press badges. Otherwise whatever shreds of credibility they have left are going to evaporate. And yes, they do care, IMO. If they didn't, they wouldn't already be clutching their pearls over the blogs.
Yes, it's call a "civil war," got it MSM? Iraq is coming apart at the seams.....
wolf-man | Email | Homepage | 05.14.05 - 1:08 pm | #
Yes, but our pets are playing house in the Green Zone, so it's not a civil war, it's a 'democracy.'
.
Re women in combat. IIRC, you can only advance so far in the military without combat experience. So even though women are in the front lines, we maintain this nice little fiction that they are not in combat. Result, less opportunity and less pay.
Lime Ricky - that's two today that got me laughing out louc..
Human 'pussy' just cannot be beat.
Being a straight female I would like to substitute something else for "pussy".
it's fun to wordsmith with you too, woody. especially on this nonstarting rainy day.
GMT- right on. what was that about the sacred tree and bread for the Lady again?
clean sheets, y'all.
Re women in combat. IIRC, you can only advance so far in the military without combat experience. So even though women are in the front lines, we maintain this nice little fiction that they are not in combat. Result, less opportunity and less pay.
bingo!
and remembering the former BGen Karpinski (sp?) let's all take to heart the notion that wimmin jes can't handle the truth...don't have the stones...can't cornhole like the real men....um, women just don't belong in command, ok!
after all, if they were, we might actually win a war quickly and effciently.
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Funny how most of what the real experts, like Prof. Cole, said all along is what is happening.
even funnier how so many of us were saying it even absent Prof. Cole's benediction?
i, for instance (not to be too egotistical) have said since the first day of the conquest that the (cynical) end-in-view was PRIMARILY to promote and foment civil war in Iraq and thereby eliminate Iraq from the list of nations threatening to Israel...
just sayin...
GMT - Married Christians were second class Christians until the invention of a sacrament of marriage in the early thirteenth century.
Prior to that, you were serious about your faith, you broke up your marriage and entered a monastery. All this "sanctity of marriage" crap is just a cargo-cult improvisation, kinda like the Cult of the Fetus we're dealing with now.
The further out a religion is from its origins, the more it will have been altered to accommodate increasing numbers of converts with ideas of their own.
Happened to Buddhism, too. Buddha has been deified, which would horrify him. He didn't think women were capable of enlightenment - they had to be reborn as men in order to even have a chance. And in the beginning, the only way to be a Buddhist was to leave home and become a monk.
The tradition is upheld now only by the Theravadans in southeast Asia, mainly. They still don't portray the Buddha, except as footprints. They don't think that enlightenment is possible outside of monastic life and have no interest in the Mahayana ideal of enlightenment on behalf of all people.
Religion is a human enterprise. Thus, it is fatally flawed and will always be so.
If Jesus was alive today he would have his own liberal blog, and would periodically post snarky comments here.
Ba'al
I think Jesus would try to nail himself to a cross.
Can you imagine his disappointment and frustration at the millions of people who twist and misuse his teachings?
Molly, NYC - no, I don't think my sister in law was relieved. I don't think she knows.
She indulged the whole thing as long as my father in law was alive. She doesn't really bother to come to Dallas anymore. Her kids are grown now and I doubt she thinks about the time Mr. Tena and I spent with them when they were younger.
san antone rose - Horrified is putting it mildly.
I really do think Steven Colbert had it right when he said "Jesus quit."
Totally weird and scary op ed in the WaPo--by Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council.
Sorry, SallyH. Couldn't pay attention to the whole article due to the GIANT CELLULITE-FREE ASS AD.
Irony isn't dead. It's just sleeping.
"Irony isn't dead. It just smells that way."
Oh my fucking god- that is the scariest thing I have ever read! Turn back the clock people this really is the American Taliban....
Patriarchy with all its implications is not unique to the Christians, societies have been kicking away Matriarchy far longer. It has just been repackaged and marketed under a different name.
Wind Change
What I've never understood is how women have helped further the cause of patriarchy even more so than men.
Genital mutilation comes to mind.
i find it somewhat ironic that as we discuss control of women and fecundity, we at the same time apply extreme principles to nature, itself understood to be essentially female.
chicago dyke
And THAT is why I let my weeds grow. Fuck what the neighbors think. I like to see the rye grass waving so prettily in the wind. And the cats like to hide in it.
Why, we've had weeds in our backyard grow to be almost 6 feet tall. I have pictures.
"No women in combat" in a speech. In Iraq, women and men alike say, paraphrase, "He's full of shit. We couldn't do our jobs here if we didn't have women in combat.
I always enjoy that old excuse about why we don't want women in combat. Because our men would feel the need to protect our women rather than fight the enemy.
So why does our country have such a high rate of spousal abuse? Oh, right. Because our men like to "protect" our women.
Another blame the women for men's actions argument. You know, for us to be labeled the "weaker sex" I sure do see a lot of men taking the "I couldn't help it...she made me" argument.
Somewhere out there, there's a namesake Anthony Hopkins starting up a fundie whackjob vaginas-are-satan's-squeezebox organisation.
pseudonymous in nc
*singing*
Mama's got a squeezebox, Daddy never sleeps at night!
XX -
Thanx for doing the legwork on bibletopics.com
The further out a religion is from its origins, the more it will have been altered to accommodate increasing numbers of converts with ideas of their own.
That's why I'm interested in early schismatic Christian sects that survive, in tiny numbers, in the Levant. William Dalrymple's written a lot about them: you can understand how there was mutual tolerance among Jews, local Christians and Muslims in the Holy Land.
Jesus wept, indeed.
Is this thread dead yet or is it me
I just wanted to point out that no all monks are bad
Nor all priors either (heh!)
When we like change it is "development" or "evolution" -- when we don't it is "corruption"
It seems that all traditions need continously to return to their roots to be renewed
Notice how the trolls don't come anywhere near threads like this. It's actually an optimistic sign that they are still capable of being embarrassed by their fellow travellers (or in some cases by themselves).
I agree with many upthread; the more exposure of this stuff in the mainstream, the better. These whackjob views are analagous to deleterious recessive genes (memes?). They can only exist in a modern society when they are hidden from view. When they are exposed, they quickly fall away.
[BTW analogies with inbreeding are mostly intentional.]
As the feller said, "If Jesus were alive today, he'd roll over in his grave."
...that's not where these people stop. They want to ban "pre-dating" (hanging out in co-ed groups while in your tweens) as well as ANY friendship between married women and other men. Dating is just the tip of the iceberg, here...
On my more cynical days I think it might be amusing to give these people a state or two that we don't really need (say, maybe Indiana, or Wyoming) and let them form their own little country. Then they could ban dating, and criminalize adultery, and contraception, and Spongebob Squarepants cartoons and anything else they think goes against the Bible. And Ann Coulter, Laura Ingraham, Kathleen Parker and the rest of Concerned Women for America could all go and live there, and leave reprobates like me in peace.
Rmj said "I can see W. embracing this one real soon."
Yeah, cuz he has such great control over his daughters.
Clear proof that his Christianity is not "true" and he is pretending to be a good Christian just for political purposes. Cuz where's the Constitutional Amendment to ban gay marriage, huh?
NY Mary said "we have St. Paul and St. Jerome to blame, mostly."
That St. Paul really screwed up what could have been a good religion with his sexual hangups. I'm not so familiar with St. Jerome, but spending many, many years listening to the Epistles drove ME away from the message of love and caring that is so central to the Gospels.
Recently read some citations to the Epistles that really made it sound like Paul was fighting his homosexual tendancies & really wasn't too keen on women at all.
Anyone know of a "church" that reads the Gospels and throws out the whole rest of the Bible? I would join THAT church, cuz even tho I don't believe in "God," I do believe in Jesus' message.
ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz...
NY Mary said "we have St. Paul and St. Jerome to blame, mostly."
That St. Paul really screwed up what could have been a good religion with his sexual hangups. I'm not so familiar with St. Jerome, but spending many, many years listening to the Epistles drove ME away from the message of love and caring that is so central to the Gospels.
Recently read some citations to the Epistles that really made it sound like Paul was fighting his homosexual tendancies & really wasn't too keen on women at all.
Anyone know of a "church" that reads the Gospels and throws out the whole rest of the Bible? I would join THAT church, cuz even tho I don't believe in "God," I do believe in Jesus' message.
If more men like my Dad were still out there, there wouldn't be so many wingers.
Amen to that - the same here.
I grew up in a very Christian home. My grandfather and uncle were ministers and church was very important to my family. The church part didn't take so much with me but I'm grateful to know over many years what real, everyday Christians are like. Let's be clear here. These people are nuts. They would have been nuts 40 years ago and they're nuts now.
Yes, they scare and annoy me, also. But nuts are like that. And they will always sound as though they're just came from a double date with God. That's part of the smug nuttiness.
Well, I sure as hell hope this ideology doesn't catch on, because (as noted) I have a daughter and, frankly, I know nothing about the number of goats required for a proper fundamentalist-style dowry.
Cal Gal,
RE:Anyone know of a "church" that reads the Gospels and throws out the whole rest of the Bible?
I don't know, but I would say that technically, the whole point of Christianity was to do away with all thatDeuteronomy, etc. nonsense and replace it with something a bit more compassionate.
Holy shit.
These people are bugfuck crazy.
the whole point of Christianity was to do away with all thatDeuteronomy, etc. nonsense and replace it with something a bit more compassionate
...because the priesthood and kings had sold out and become collaborators with the Roman occupation.
That would make you want to reevaluate The Law, now wouldn't it?
.
Yep, nothing says "christian fatherly love" like killing your children.
.
So, ΤΏΤ sez: For a hetero male, usually white, today's world is a world gone mad because of the upsetting of old power orders they used to dominate. So the first thing they attempt to do is control the sex of women and gays.
Puh-leeze. I'm a hetero male, and I'm usually white. The first thing I attempted to do was not control the sex of women and gays.
Now you go, "No, not you, just hetero usual-whites in general". I'll wait: go ahead and say it.
Ah, Thanks! Now I can say, "You're making a foolish generalization about gender and race in the course of attacking foolish generalizations about gender and race." Now it's your turn to bluster. Go ahead.
Thank you for your bluster. Yes, I do have a suggestion. Drop the cheap, sophomore-year lit-class lumpings of badness/evil/provicial/repressive --and-- pale maleness. Paleness and maleness are not good predictors of asshole behavior. Most rapes are committed by men, yes: but most men are not rapists. Do you see where there could be a lumping problem there? Does it perhaps make it possible for you to contemplate that you and I might have more in common as denizens of this discussion forum, than GWB and I have in common as usually white men?
Christ.
Don't miss "Holdin' it for Jesus -- What's Wrong with Going to the Bathroom?"
It begins, "Defecating was invented within the last 200 years..."
Hager, Horsley, Swaggart, et cetera, ad nauseam--why do the self-appointed sex cops of the Religious Right (I refuse to call them "Christian" without quotation marks) turn out to be the biggest perverts?
This all comes complete with the excuse to start making honor killings of female family members a Christian thing.
Why is it always the WOMAN's "fault"?
These fuckwads kill me - women are so weak and inferior but we have to control sexual situations because men think with their dicks (by the Xian "logic" anyway).
These people are fucking crazy!
Maybe we need to bring back honor killings to straighten out this screwed up culture.
American Taliban
I'm for killing the theofascists who are trying to push this shit on America.
" I am owned by my father. If someone is interested in me, he should see him."
WTF???????
Bitch, ever hear of Lincoln?
No one OWNS anyone in this country!
The father, who should be protecting his daughter's sexual purity, instead sends her off into the dark with some 17 year old boy whose veins are chock full of testosterone.
Hello? I was a virgin till I was 21 and that was back in the late 1960s and early 1970s..
Teenage girls today know the score and unless she dating a rapist (or she's a complete fucking idiot), I'm sure the girl can take care of herself.
How about the boy's sexual purity being protected?
What is WITH these assholes?
did any one notice the foto the guy used for his bible study? That boy has his arms squarely pressed against my daughter's breasts!
I've been wondering when this would happen.
The religious reich blames the decline of marriage on such things as women's lib and homosexuality, but the real "problem" is heterosexual marriage.
In the old days it didn't matter whether you loved or even really liked your spouse -- so why would people get divorced except under the most extreme circumstances (abuse; in some cultures, adultery)?
But for the past hundred or two years, people (including myself) in the West (and now other places in the world) expect to be married to someone they love, not just someone they can tolerate.
The desire of homosexuals to enter the institution of marriage is not a cause of the decline of marriage but a direct consequence of marriage becoming an institution for heterosexuals. To go against gay marriage in favor of "traditional" marriage as the religious reich has done makes one wonder - what's next? The obvious answer is that they will next go after marriages based on romantic, heterosexual love in order to reinstitute traditional marriage.
I am surprised by everyone's surprise. This was coming down the pike as soon as the religious reich started going against gays ...
BTW - note the celebration of singleness. I've heard this on Dobson, too -- for a long time. The religious reich has actually been celebrating singleness/celebacy for decades now. They are slowly turning toward a very Augustinian/Origenian view of Christianity, actually ...
My favorite quote is from the Training Suitors page. Here's the howler-in-question:
So he must be strong for the process of courtship, but a godly masculine strength cannot be instilled at the last moment. When he is knocked down when he is little, a kindly father must show him how to get up again without tears. Moreover, godly parents will allow him to get into situations where he will probably get knocked down. If a boy is mollycoddled, his search for a wife will tend to be a search for a maternal substitute someone to assume the important duties of pampering him and running his life. One of the more frequent causes of such mollycoddling occurs when a mother is bringing up her son without adequate direction from the son's father. Good intentions do not prevent this problem from happening. If he falls out of the tree, he might break his leg. But if he, banned from trees, must spend all his time reading edifying literature, he will be a pantywaist. And it would have been better for his future marital happiness if he had broken his leg in two places.
Ahem, total bullshit, and I can prove it using a little math, in my case the equation looks like this:
(Son of a music teacher)+(High IQ)+(Big Mouth)+(Spent a lot of time in libraries to avoid bullies)+(Former Marine)+(UC Berkeley Grad in Electrical Engineering)?Pantywaist
This is the last post. Last!!!!!!!
I totally agree with what you're saying. I wish more people felt this way and took the time to express themselves. Keep up the great work.
Adam Butler
http://www.americandatingservice4u.com
I must say its a great post. Keep up the good work.
Cindy Travers
http://www.americandatingservice4u.com
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