I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
First?
Second?
Third?
Home Run?
Whoo-Hoo!
stop!
What Joe Galloway said.
Afternoon, folks.
I want to dedicate this home run to Quilt Lady upon the anniversary of her birth!
What if dry powder could be used as a petroleum substitute? We would be rich, that's what!
Yeah, it's a damned shame actually.
Very disheartening. I tell myself: hey, it's still more than a month to the convention, but when I ask myself why it would get better now, I don't have a convincing answer.
/chucks 4th Amendment down the sewer
I suppose I SHOULD read the posting now.
BRB.
It's Quilt Lady's birthday?!!
Cool.
I hope she's out enjoying it.
Cool grav, CT. Louis Cypher?
fear!
What if dry powder could be used as a petroleum substitute? We would be rich, that's what!
trifecta
Amen!
And organizations such as Meals On Wheels wouldn't be having the problems they're having.
For most of this country's history, the 4th amendment did not apply to blacks, asians or women. The current congress is simply making sure it doesn't apply to everyone else, thereby ensuring equality for all.
fear!
watertiger
pimentoes!
How Dare They
S'very simple. There's $$$$$ for them in doing so and they know we won't riot in the streets over it.
Change! Hope!
"Cool grav, CT. Louis Cypher?"
Coop's 'Smoking Devil'
David Broder would say harsh things about democrats if they opposed this bill. Feelings could be hurt.
I do like Atrios' theory though that a bunch of them aren't really that liberal, like Feinstein.
They aren't betraying their values. They are assholes to begin with.
negative electric bill of $14?
we are going solar but the utility wont give us back any money, even at year end if we are ahead.
they need to change that to encourage more residential solar.
why do I have to be a solar utility or wind farm to get paid to produce?
By the way, along with our right to privacy (4th Amendment), we can expect to lose our right to free speech (1st Amendment) as well.
I would not shed a tear if all of Congress and the rest of those in power in DC were to disappear.
By the way, along with our right to privacy (4th Amendment), we can expect to lose our right to free speech (1st Amendment) as well.
Oh, that went out the window with the SCOTUS equating speech with money.
by the way DFH digby has some really domestic spy pertinent stuff up comparing nixon era to bush era, and how the same goopers who were there telling ford and nixon to say inherent presidential authority authorized spying on people in the US are still at it.
THE DIFFERENCE?
In the 60s and 70s Dems in Congress had balls, read the Constitution and had the occasional principled leader such as Sen. Sam Ervin, who believed that the Constitution was not some document that you sacrificed to political expediency.
The goopers are the same cast that plied Ford--cheney, rumsfeld, et al--the only difference is that the Democrats are now fucking whimps with no balls and no spine.
They are who we thought they were.
Gutless and pathetic.
By the way, along with our right to privacy (4th Amendment), we can
expect to lose our right to free speech (1st Amendment) as well.
But they WILL give us back the right to garrison soldiers.
By the way, along with our right to privacy (4th Amendment), we can expect to lose our right to free speech (1st Amendment) as well.
Diane C. Barking-Mad
You mean the First Amendment (now sponsored by Disney)?
I would not shed a tear if all of Congress and the rest of those in power in DC were to disappear.
tbhull
Anarchy in the USA
Soylent corporations are people!
Terry C, Obama/Clinton 08 | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 6:17 pm | #
Very nice! Where are the Sex Pistols when you need them?
But they WILL give us back the right to garrison soldiers.
[swoon!]
-K-Lo in Betsy Ross see-through dress.
anyone know if the Obama revolt on his website is still going strong after OB's attempt to soothe them with some erroneous pablum that Greenwald tore to shreds while the wise posters also pointed out that OB was ignoring the Constitution and sucking up to fear card?
I'm about ready to sit this one out and I didn't think I'd ever say that.
Ay caramba leibniz.
I did not need that visual.
-K-Lo in Betsy Ross see-through dress.
She's just itching to wear a bonnet.
K-Lo in Betsy Ross see-through dress
(Toilet sound flushing down vomit.)
hbk---wankees sox are on tb today.
i having game and brewer/patriots.
Teddy Roosevelt sued 44 major corporations but our party is afraid to even filibuster a bill
David Broder would say harsh things about democrats if they opposed this bill. Feelings could be hurt.
besides, we have to support this in order to get a new law saying the old law is the law, and this time we mean it.
there's no WAY they'll ignore THIS law.
But the important thing is bi-partsanship and getting things done, Mr. Galloway. [/Nancy Nice & Dry Powder Reid
negative electric bill?
we are going solar but the utility wont give us back any money, even at year end if we are ahead.
they need to change that to encourage more residential solar.
why do I have to be a solar utility or wind farm to get paid to produce?
peterboy
It's the same for us over the course of a year - the best we can do is zero out the bill, which is paid annually. But the power company (Pacific Gas and Electric) credits the over-production during the year, so that keeps the overall bill down.
Hecate,I feel about the same. but then I listen to mcsame and think:
5-4.
(aside--fox announcer just f'ed up the game by wishing george steinbrenner happy birthday.)
and the yankees are acutally winning peterboy.
woo and hoo!!!
By the way, along with our right to privacy (4th Amendment), we can expect to lose our right to free speech (1st Amendment) as well.
Diane C. Barking-Mad | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 6:16 pm |
As long as the Second Amendment stays sacred, who gives a fuck about the others?
/Wingnut/
if the Obama revolt on his website is still going strong after OB's attempt to soothe them with some erroneous pablum that Greenwald tore to shreds while the wise posters also pointed out that OB was ignoring the Constitution and sucking up to fear card?
Would anyone who is surprised by this please raise their hand so that I can laugh at you? He never gave us anything but vague Hope! and Change! to start with.
peterboy,
Also, when we over-produce, we sell the power back to the power company at retail rates. And since we over-produce during peak demand hours (noon to 6 p.m. or 1 to 7 p.m., depending on time of year), we get credit for the peak kilowatt-hour rate, which (last I checked) is four times as much as summer off-peak.
I'm about ready to sit this one out and I didn't think I'd ever say that.
Hecate, Runnymeade Conspirator
I'm not quite there yet, but I can understand why you might be. I just may vote for every slot by the top two.
When will sanity return to America/
Every democrat in the Senate needs to see Galloway's remarks.
oops, but the top two
As long as the Second Amendment stays sacred, who gives a fuck about the others?
i forget - which amendment protects us from gays getting married?
upsadasium.....
we get charged a minimum for the month for the privilege of getting a bill and being hooked to the grid.
but we cant sell the surplus.
installation coming next month.
LADWP; muni power in LA.
That / was really a ?. My keys are sticking.
i've just raised the pimento alert to orange.
íFelíz Cumpleaños a Nuestra Señora de las Colchas!
...y muchas mas tambien!
¡Meeeeeowargh!
Did you see the quote on Rising Hegemon today about K-Lo opining that Dim Son would make a great high school government teacher?
WTF?! Chimpy is to government as pissing in the water supply is to public health.
hecate has mail.
But they WILL give us back the right to garrison soldiers.
Baloney!
Down with King George the Junior!
peterboy | 07.05.08 - 6:20 pm | #
No, the uproar continues. I am part of the group and I steadily receive 100 or so e-mails an hour of people sending Obama meesages about his failure, cowardice and capitulation on FISA.
Obama miscalculated this issue and clearly revealed that he is a cabin slave for the militiary complex and the telcos like all other supporters of the FISA fold as thesy all so readily and in supplicant fashion answer to their masters' command: "On your knees boy."
Care to join?
----
Senator Obama - Please Vote NO on Telecom Immunity - Get FISA Right
Members: 18791 Access: Public Created: Jun 25th, 2008
----
I'm about ready to sit this one out and I didn't think I'd ever say that.
Hecate, Runnymeade Conspirator
I'm not quite there yet, but I can understand why you might be. I just may vote for every slot by the top two.
I've always said that anti-choice is my Rubicon; I won't vote for fuckers who are anti-choice. Right now, I still think that I can get myself drunk enough on the first Tuesday in November to at least make myself go pull the lever. If VA weren't such a battleground state, I would for sure write in someone with two X chromosomes, which is what I'd like to do for the rest of my life.
HBK--ugh, scary farnsworth in to pitch in the 8th.
closes eyes, drinks another shot with a beer.
People keep saying the GOP/White House's game-plan is fear, but actually, I think it's rage. The point is to keep the base apoplectic with rage at anything and everything...but particular "those not like us" wherever they fester.
I know that rage is often based on fear, but there's a big difference between the two emotions. Fear worries and second-guesses itself; it tries to think, even if it often ends up going around in circles. Rage, on the other hand, negates thinking -- when you're angry, you're absolutely convinced you're right, no matter how contradictory your ideas might be. Reason just bounces off. Quite likely, that's one of the evolutionary strengths behind rage; you don't waste time wondering if you might be wrong, you just get medieval on whoever is in the way.
Once you see that the point is rage, not fear, right-wing tactics make a lot more sense. Americans don't really scare easily, but they pop into fury at the drop of a hat...and once they're there, they'll swallow the silliest things because rage doesn't ask questions.
A useful emotion if you can make it work...
bo, can I join more than once?
-ugh, scary farnsworth in to pitch in the 8th.
heaven can wait
I would for sure write in someone with two X chromosomes, which is what I'd like to do for the rest of my life.
Hecate, Runnymeade Conspirator | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 6:27 pm | #
asking b/c i don't know - what is hilary's stance on the fisa bill?
Did you see the quote on Rising Hegemon today about K-Lo opining that Dim Son would make a great high school government teacher?
Yup, saw that. Some translation required:
Likable guy = smart-ass frat boy
In love with his country = "my base, the haves and the have mores...."
Some history and experience to share = testimony under oath anticipated
I think Farnsworth just killed the catcher.
yay heepies
I'm about ready to sit this one out and I didn't think I'd ever say that.
Hecate, Runnymeade Conspirator | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 6:20 pm
On Nov 4 I'm going fishing - which revives a traditional method for local Dems to avoid entanglement with the crazed National Democrats' politics in presidential years.
-
Betcha Phila has this in next Friday's Hope Blogging. Bamboo bicycle.
A useful emotion if you can make it work...
Jim Gardner | 07.05.08 - 6:27
Their skill at rage-arousal is as good as the best pornographer's at arousing lust. The irony is that these devout Christians ignore that anger, like lust, is one of the seven deadly sins.
I am in a semi battle ground state this time. First election in my life that matters where I live.
Plus, I get to vote for Kay Hagan to beat Liddy Dole.
You have to be a different kind of person to pursue a career as a catcher in pro baseball.
Knees just weren't made to take that abuse. Plus some guy is throwing an object at you at ~100 mph, repeatedly.
Likable guy = smart-ass frat boy
the "boys will be boys" excuse does not extend to blowing up animals.
Knees just weren't made to take that abuse. Plus some guy is throwing an object at you at ~100 mph, repeatedly.
Joe Mauer had pretty big knee surgery a few years back.
I'm willing to bet that the pain never goes away, though.
upsadasium.....
we get charged a minimum for the month for the privilege of getting a bill and being hooked to the grid.
but we cant sell the surplus.
installation coming next month.
LADWP; muni power in LA.
peterboy
Well, at least you'll get plenty of sunlight. 
bo, can I join more than once? - mer
How many e-mail accounts to you want to put on gmail or yahoo?
asking b/c i don't know - what is hilary's stance on the fisa bill?
dirk gently, sociopathetic
Same as Obama's
Kind of like goalies, MP. Gotta be a special kind of person to be a goalie.
Hokay pipples, I need a suggestion for some sort of carbohydrate that goes well weeth grilled pork-chops.
Fries are out, ditto baked potatoes or chips.
¿Any suggestions?
I like baseball alot better when the ads are for beer--directed at 20 and 30 year olds, than FLOMAX.
You have to be a different kind of person to pursue a career as a catcher in pro baseball.
Knees just weren't made to take that abuse.
So why are so many senators on their knees?
Gato Negro has no platanos?
Tostones are the only thing that go with chuletas.
leibniz....teh funny
Kind of like goalies, MP. Gotta be a special kind of person to be a goalie.
Ali, spiritual advisor
Weird. I was going to include hockey goalies in my comment.
gato-
wild rice?
About this wiretapping, isn't it obvious that terrorists are going to use VOIP with encryption, which makes the whole thing a joke to start with?
Hecate--I don't know if you saw this when I posted it before, Neil Gaiman's Snow, Glass, Apples. Snow White from a certain mature woman's point of view...
asking b/c i don't know - what is hilary's stance on the fisa bill?
Same as any pol's position depending upon Obama to pay off campaign debt: whatever he says.
In Miami for vacation. The Miami Herald (McLatchy) had letter to the editor this week calling Galloway just that. Too much.
Same as Obama's
BlueinColorado | 07.05.08 - 6:36 pm | #
so it's more than just chromosomes.
(sorry, i hate to say it, but it's true)
EGN,
Some fancy rice.
El Gato Negro, a nice pasta salad would go beautifully with grilled pork chops. If that doesn't appeal, some vegetable fried rice would work well, too.
¿Any suggestions?
Grill some slices of sweet potato, brushed with a mixture of lemon juice, honey and cilantro.
Or, grill some strips of fresh green and red pepper.
¿Any suggestions?
¡El Gato Negro! |
¿Arroz?
I can't think of any sport where you don't retire with fuck up knees.
I use to fence and now I can hardly walk.
El Gato: yam fries?
MP - weird, because it's true.
I've always said that anti-choice is my Rubicon; I won't vote for fuckers who are anti-choice. Right now, I still think that I can get myself drunk enough on the first Tuesday in November to at least make myself go pull the lever. If VA weren't such a battleground state, I would for sure write in someone with two X chromosomes, which is what I'd like to do for the rest of my life.
Hecate, Runnymeade Conspirator | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 6:27 pm | #
Jesus, can anyone be more full of shit?
la gata negra has expressed a dislike of plantains, although she has enjoyed them before.
I theenk eet weel almost have to be an American starch of some kind.
(shrugs)
so it's more than just chromosomes.
(sorry, i hate to say it, but it's true)
Well I said all along that there wasn't much difference between the two and I'd prefer to see a woman. I was told over and over that she was some kind of evil corporatist war lover and that he was pure and new and all about Change! and Hope!
I think a lot of that was all about the chromosomes.
But I'm a crazy old woman who needs a man to decide what I can do with my womb after his snoops on my phone callls.
R. McGeddon | 07.05.08 - 6:37 pm | #
Any readily available encryptcion, even for VOIP, can be cracked by the NSA. Count on it.
rootless,
I'd advise against quitting your day job and taking on a Charm School franchise.
¿Any suggestions?
Brown rice,tomatoes and basil. Barefoot Contessa did it recently and you can find recipe at food network. It's sooooo good.
El Gato Negro, baby potatoes, baked in paprika, parsley, black pepper and olive oil. Pretty Americano, no?
Same as any pol's position depending upon Obama to pay off campaign debt: whatever he says.
Hecate, R
So why did she have the same position for the last six months?
rootless-e I don't remember you being such an asshole.
When did this start?
About this wiretapping, isn't it obvious that terrorists are going to use VOIP with encryption, which makes the whole thing a joke to start with?
I have a feeling that such stuff is old hat to the NSA.
Any computer encryption is bustable with enough computer power, and the NSA is in no short supply of that....
I'd advise against quitting your day job and taking on a Charm School franchise.
I don't hold it against him. It's hero worship. V strong drug. And it's v difficult when said hero has, in the end, feet of lead.
El Gato Negro, some types of wingnuts have a largely potato diet so they might work in a pinch.
And, of course, apples are tried and true with pork.
Maybe grilled? Served with some chopped fresh mint and habaneros?
When did this start?
HoneyBearKellyGoGiants | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 6:43 pm | #
I've lost patience for people making dishonest arguments about how it's all hopeless and we should all stay home.
Oh, I second the sallyh potatoes. But after steaming them for a bit to soften them up, grill them in foil with all the stuff.
an American starch of some kind.
Grits?
Polenta?
Corn fritters?
rootless-e show me where anybody said we should all stay home?
Well, now I at least know what I'm having for dinner.
Suzie wrote a post on that Obama thingy today on my blog. I feel like a capitalist just sitting back on observing the great job three (3!) bloggers are doing there.
The new Bill does away with that practice, but grants immunity from prosecution for phone companies that co-operated with the programme.
The reaction from Mr Obama's "netroots" – internet supporters and bloggers – was swift and brutal. One prominent blogger, Atrios, branded Mr Obama with a six-letter epithet, while Keith Olberman, the most influential liberal cable news host, condemned the Bill as "fascism". The debate is an important one for Mr Obama's strategists because he will shortly face the biggest hurdle of his campaign, when he visits Iraq.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/...m-the-
Left.html
That's Mr. Atrios to you, Bub.
-
Going out for dinner at a friend's.
I hope there's potatoes.
Rice, weeth grilled peppers, of assorted colors and piquancy...
The new potatoes, sliced thin, drizzled weeth olive oil covered w/ spices and baked, sounds good too.
Both of those ideas seem achievable on a limited budget and time constraints, and using such a tiny grill.
Muchas gracias a todos.
montag | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 6:43 pm | #
Also, it is easy to determine when one uses encryption software. I would not be surpise that NSA's e-mail search algorithm gives higher threat levels to those that employ encryption software.
Lead doesn't smell, Hecate, but maybe I'm just being hormonal.
Neil Gaiman's Snow, Glass, Apples, in case you missed the link the first time. Snow White from the Queen's point of view. Just sayin'.
Not the...
six letter epithet!
eeeeeeek!!!
rootless-e show me where anybody said we should all stay home?
HoneyBearKellyGoGiants | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 6:45 pm | #
Here
I'm about ready to sit this one out and I didn't think I'd ever say that.
Hecate, Runnymeade Conspirator | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 6:20 pm
I disagree with Hecate. We have to start somewhere. And a vote for Obama is a vote against a wheezing reactionary war-mongering stupid fool. FDR had his flaws, as did JFK, TR, and Clinton.
But I think personal attacks on her, like what rootless-e just wrote, epitomize the kind of poiltics that people like Jesse Helms, Rush Limbaugh and Karl Rove have embraced. Pretty despicable.
I pledge to worship as a hero the president who appoints Supreme Court justices who respect Roe v. Wade and Lawrence v. Texas.
Clinton would have done that. Obama will do that.
McCain, not so much.
I always enjoy Neil Gaiman, Ina. Haven't read that one.
Oh, and fuck Jesse Helms.
OK, off to eat those potatoes now. (i hope)
Harry, I'm not looking for Superman or Mighty Mouse. I'm looking for someone who will start walking in the opposite direction of where we've been going. I don't think that's hero worship.
McCain, not so much.
McCain's still pissed off about Plessy v. Ferguson.
Not the...
six letter epithet!
eeeeeeek!!!
Ali, spiritual advisor
"looser"?
Harry Doghiney (D-TX) | 07.05.08 - 6:48 pm | #
Necrophilia?
I really liked the Fourth Amendment. As Amendments go, it had dignity, style and a certain history to it.
Another advantage of gay marriage that most people are missing is the message it sends to US Muslims. We'll arbitrarily change our marriage laws to accommodate our latest whims but will not budge when it comes to Muhammad's allowance of polygamy (up to 4 wives). Pretty much every time we celebrate a homosexual marriage we are also taking a dump on the Qur' an (metaphorically of course).
Harry, I'm not looking for Superman or Mighty Mouse. I'm looking for someone who will start walking in the opposite direction of where we've been going. I don't think that's hero worship.
Sallyh
I think we're on the same page.
But I think personal attacks on her, like what rootless-e just wrote, epitomize the kind of poiltics that people like Jesse Helms, Rush Limbaugh and Karl Rove have embraced. Pretty despicable.
leibniz leibkins ♘☮ | 07.05.08 - 6:47 pm | #
Oh gimme a fucking break. Hecate is no stranger to dishing out personal attacks. And my comment is clearly an attack on her solipsistic argument.
rootless-e Hecate was not telling everybody to stay home (as if!).
She was speaking for herself.
I'm sure that 99.99 percent of the people that comment here are going to vote for Obama.
that ain't atrios.
Watertiger, Plessy v. Ferguson--is that the mythology of 'separate but equal'?
Sorry, not a lawyer, don't even play one on TV.
Harry Doghiney (D-TX) | 07.05.08 - 6:48 pm | #
Another approach, which I am not suggesting, would be to tip his casket over during the service with some sort of remote controlled device.
Oh gimme a fucking break. Hecate is no stranger to dishing out personal
attacks. And my comment is clearly an attack on her solipsistic
argument.
I'm sorry, but you're deadass wrong on this one.
Plessy vs. Ferguson was about the African-American man who was denied a seat in the whites-only compartment of a train. The Supremes decided that separate was fine if it was equal. So race could be used to bar people.
McCain's still pissed off about Plessy v. Ferguson.
watertiger
Only because McCain had Plessy in the office pool.
I always enjoy Neil Gaiman, Ina. Haven't read that one.
Ali, spiritual advisor |
I got to hear him do a reading years ago at a fundraiser for the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund. He's pretty darn funny.
Oh, and fuck Jesse Helms.
Harry Doghiney (D-TX)
Too late.
He's dead.
And my comment is clearly an attack on her solipsistic argument. - rootless-e
Martini, throw the ball to someone who's really there. [/McMurphy
Auntie GWPDA, we miss it sorely.
Come back, 4th Amendment! Come back!
Canada is buying Saddam's uranium.
Oh, and fuck Jesse Helms.
Harry Doghiney (D-TX)
Too late.
He's dead.
You clearly have not seen enough episodes of "Six Feet Under"
Canada is buying Saddam's uranium.
Cheney's buying Saddam's urine.
Go after Bush, not the telecoms.
Too late.
He's dead.
Diane C.
I reserve the right to dance on his grave.
Same as any pol's position depending upon Obama to pay off campaign debt: whatever he says.
I find it amazing how you always manage to find a way to blame a man for a bad decision made by a woman. Always.
All women are as pure as the driven snow, and left to their own devices, are uncapable of doing anything wrong, apparently.
Sorry, but Clinton is responsible for her own actions. You can't whitewash it.
Diane C, never stopped some of our dead commenters
I reserve the right to dance on his grave.
Polka? In Lederhosen?
~~~sigh~~~~
I haz to go buy more canning jars.... Pickled Sweet Peppers next. 4.5 quarts of fresh salsa used up nearly my whole stash.
Plessy vs. Ferguson was about the African-American man who was denied a
seat in the whites-only compartment of a train. The Supremes decided
that separate was fine if it was equal. So race could be used to bar
people.
McCain thinks they shouldn't be able to ride the train at all.
Go after Bush, not the telecoms.
ape
Well, sure. The telecoms are to Bush was tax returns were to Al Capone.
Cheney's buying Saddam's urine.
"Urine the money!"
[don't even ask about "Yellow Brick Road"]
Well I said all along that there wasn't much difference between the two and I'd prefer to see a woman. I was told over and over that she was some kind of evil corporatist war lover and that he was pure and new and all about Change! and Hope!
oh, i agree with all of that (though i didn't really have a preference on whether the first black scapegoat or first female scapegoat was elected - the right's plan is to make sure we never try THAT again) - in fact, most of the time i leaned toward clinton b/c obama is a little further to the right on most social issues. and more likely to be pressured further right - hillary, i thought, would take her stand in the center and not budge.
i even drew a graph about it.
ape | 07.05.08 - 6:53 pm | #
Go afcter both, as well as anyone else that facilities this invasive bullshit. Amdocs, Naurus, etc..
that ain't atrios. - Ali
I'm astounded you would say such a thing. 
Said namestealer just picked up a boatload of bad karma.
Pretty much every time we celebrate a homosexual marriage we are also taking a dump on the Qur' an (metaphorically of course).
If that is Atrios, I am Marie of Romania. I want to be completely clear: we should deny Americans rights because otherwise we'll piss of the Islamofaxcists?? That's your argument?
i even drew a graph about it.
(Swoons)
I'm pretty sure, notwithstanding how mad we get, that just about every person who comments on this blog is going to vote in November.
BTW, why did Ginger bring all of those body-hugging cocktail dresses to go on a three hour tour?
The Bush administration probably lied to the telecoms about the urgency of the threat and therefore the telecoms should be forgiven, just like the people who believed the Iraq war was justified but have since apologized.
I'm sure that 99.99 percent of the people that comment here are going to vote against McCain.
HoneyBearKellyGoGiants |
fractured your tail
so it's more than just chromosomes.
(sorry, i hate to say it, but it's true)
dirk gently, sociopathetic
Pelosi, Feinstein, etc etc.
in fact, most of the time i leaned toward clinton b/c obama is a little further to the right on most social issues. and more likely to be pressured further right - hillary, i thought, would take her stand in the center and not budge.
I explained to wingnut friend that Obama was a leetle farther right than I preferred and he was gobsmacked.
"Obama is the most liberal Senator in the Senate," quoth he.
Pretty much every time we celebrate a homosexual marriage we are also taking a dump on the Qur' an
Is that a one-holer or a six-holier?
(Swoons)
Sallyh, Grandmere Poissonniere |
don't get too excited. it wasn't to scale.
BTW, why did Ginger bring all of those body-hugging cocktail dresses to go on a three hour tour?
MP
Oh, please. That made perfect sense compared to Lovey bringing eighteen steamer-trunks full of fur coats to Hawaii? Much less on a three hour boatride.
Diane C, never stopped some of our dead commenters
Sallyh, Grandmere Poissonniere
Go after Bush, not the telecoms.
AND the telecoms.
"Obama is the most liberal Senator in the Senate," quoth he.
That little nugget is going to die a slow and painful death.
There's an actual socialist in the senate is what I say to all who trot out that meme.
NTodd, have you recovered?
Also, it is easy to determine when one uses encryption software. I would not be surpise that NSA's e-mail search algorithm gives higher threat levels to those that employ encryption software.
Absolutely.
The great problem with the NSA right now is that its eyes are too big for its stomach. It's not at all selective about what it traps--it wants to glom onto everything.
It would make much more sense to search in near-real time for what's actually valuable to them, but they still want to grab everything and sort it all out later.
It's difficult getting an entire nation to change its ways, but, if everyone were using encryption software for communications, the NSA would be damned sure changing its ways and concentrating on the essentials, because even they couldn't handle four billion emails a day with 1024-digit public/private keys.
But, can't convince an entire nation that the tools used on terrorists can be turned against the people just as easily.
Pretty much every time we celebrate a homosexual marriage we are also taking a dump on the Qur' an
Is that a one-holer or a six-holier?
Turns out, it's ok to piss on the Koran in Gitmo but we have to follow the Koran when it comes to gay marriage and I've yet to see a single quote from the Koran saying Gays Should Not Be Able To Get Married, but, still, apparently.
Oh, please. That made perfect sense compared to Lovey bringing eighteen steamer-trunks full of fur coats to Hawaii? Much less on a three hour boatride.
BlueinColorado
Coinkydinkally, today I explained the "seven deadly sins allegory" of Gilly Gonzylon with Mere Doghiney.
She was unconvinced.
obama is a little further to the right on most social issues. and
more likely to be pressured further right - hillary, i thought, would
take her stand in the center and not budge.
I was sillier than that. I estimated that in the absolutely vital bureaucratic and administrative arena, Senator Clinton had far superior skills and expertise than does Senator Obama. I still believe this to be true. The equivalent girly comparison is that the person who has been Chairman of the PTA Ways and Means Committee knows lots and lots more and different ways to succeed than does a general member.
A little late but:
Jesus, can anyone be more full of shit?
Look in the mirror, motherfucker.
All women are as pure as the driven snow, and left to their own devices, are uncapable of doing anything wrong, apparently.
er, that just might be a slight exaggeration of her statement.
If that is Atrios, I am Marie of Romania. I want to be completely clear: we should deny Americans rights because otherwise we'll piss of the Islamofaxcists?? That's your argument?
No, I'm saying that it's good that we double piss off Muslims by allowing gays to marry and not letting them have their traditional marriages. We only get the fundies once.
NTodd, have you recovered? -
Sallyh
Doubt it, he never wears pants.
NTodd, have you recovered?
Meh, sorta, thanks. No more violent emissions, but I'm still dehydrated and queasy. Trying to take shit to pack and unload shit to Goodwill doesn't help. But we're getting there!
MP | 07.05.08 - 6:56 pm | #
That is if some unkown court sitting with secretly granted executive authority in Diego Garcia finds us all guilty in absentia of a felony pursuant to a sealed undated indictment brought by the NSA by then.
McCain's still pissed off about Plessy v. Ferguson.
His Supreme Court appointees would certaintly tip the court far enough right to overturn Roe vs. Wade.
Somehow, I don't think that would happen under Obama.
Hey DorkBoy, here's something for the dirty fucking hippies to Digg:
"It's kind of like the fight's never over," Fultz said. "It started on July 4, 1776, and now it's 2008."
Fuck you and yours.
I've yet to see a single quote from the Koran saying Gays Should Not Be Able To Get Married
It's right next to the quote in the Bible that says the same thing.
Mariano had me sweating there for a minute.
Mariano had me sweating there for a minute.
HoneyBearKelly
Wha' happened?
I have my back to the teevee and I'm too lazy to turn around.
stop!
leibniz leibkins ♘☮
heh
I estimated that in the absolutely vital bureaucratic and administrative arena, Senator Clinton had far superior skills and expertise than does Senator Obama. I still believe this to be true.
also a good point, and probably true; although obama's history in community organization does point to skills in that regard. but if that was a main argument, i would have backed richardson. they are all smart and capable of recruiting good help on the admin side.
The Bush administration probably lied to the telecoms about the urgency of the threat and therefore the telecoms should be forgiven, just like the people who believed the Iraq war was justified but have since apologized.
ape
what hole did you crawl out of?
we are now forgiving multi billion dollar companies for not knowing the FISA required WARRANTS signed by a judge?
some of them asked for it, didnt get them and lost govt business.
Lawbreaking...that is what it is.
the telco companies OWE to their customers that they do not abrogate the customers' privacy without a warrant.
You are an idiot.
The NSA doesn't give a god damn about you or your life.
His Supreme Court appointees would certaintly tip the court far enough right to overturn Roe vs. Wade.
Somehow, I don't think that would happen under Obama.
It isn't just Roe that is at risk. All cases having to do with the rights of the workers vs. the rights of corporations are going to end up with one solution. Title VII will not be enforced, Equal Pay Act will not be enforced, because they will all be "interpreted" from an originalist point of view having to do with people not wearing white wigs in appropriate times.
The NSA doesn't give a god damn about you or your life.
Yes it does.
Harry he loaded up the bases and gave up a run.
Then 2 strikeouts and a pop up.
There's joy in Mudville.
HBK--yea, mariano had me wondering why i was worried about farnsworth.
yikes.
So, I'm looking at this p-slip on my keyboard - what the hell does "48:20" mean? And why have I noted it?
I have ADD. I don't get enough attention. That's why I'm here. Help me.
Somehow, I don't think that would happen under Obama.
We shall see. I had more faith in Clinton standing up for it than Obama, who let that homophobe religious nut host his rallies in South Carolina.
And after his pronouncement on who should be "worthy" of an abortion, I have less faith in him not knuckling under than I did before.
All this should have been thrashed out in the primaries, of course, but actual hard questions were not allowed because... because... Hope! Change!! HITLERY!!!
The NSA doesn't give a god damn about you or your life.
Probably not, but I'll bet they've taken a shine to you....
"Obama is the most liberal Senator in the Senate," quoth he.
Harry Doghiney (D-TX) | 07.05.08 - 6:57 pm | #
if hillary had won the nomination, she'd have won that title as well.
rootless-e Hecate was not telling everybody to stay home (as if!).
She was speaking for herself.
I'm sure that 99.99 percent of the people that comment here are going to vote for Obama.
HoneyBearKellyGoGiants | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 6:50 pm | #
I don't see that as a serious distinction. Nobody expresses political opinions as matters of personal taste.
In any case, too much heat, not enough light.
later
if hillary had won the nomination, she'd have won that title as well.
dirk gently
'xackly.
And yet, the wingnuts are spoonfed this bullshit and they drink it up.
McCain is the maverickiest Senator in the whole world. He is so mavericky that he mavericks on his own maverickiness. There.
The RNC doesn't give a god damn about you or your life.
someone hit the wrong keys
if hillary had won the nomination, she'd have won that title as well.
No question. As I recall, they gave Kerry that same label in 2004.
Nobody expresses political opinions as matters of personal taste.
Lots of people do.
what the hell does "48:20" mean? And why have I noted it? - GWPDA
Something on the stove? Duration of the last walk you took?
i came across a nice quote today
"clarity is the opposite of truth"--neils bohr
OK, time for a light supper.
I think that instead of contributing to Obama's campaign right now, I'll send a few dollars to a local senior food program.
Those folks have been hit hard by the rise in gas costs.
Later, folks.
Mariano had me sweating there for a minute.
HoneyBearKellyGoGiants
Orioles had a closer in the early nineties named Gregg Olsen. However many runs the Orioles had to work with, he'd wind up with the tying run on third, usually with less than two out.
That's usually where they'd wind up, too, but damn...
res ipsa went to the game today.
She saw a good one.
bbl.
i came across a nice quote today
"clarity is the opposite of truth"--neils bohr
Quite often true, too. The world is nuanced and complicated, but just try telling that in a soundbite.
Orioles had a closer in the early nineties named Gregg Olsen. However many runs the Orioles had to work with, he'd wind up with the tying run on third, usually with less than two out.
Someone needs to look at his betting patterns...
if hillary had won the nomination, she'd have won that title as well.
Agreed. And the fact that we've got no choices other than Republican Lite is obscured both by the General Electric media and by MoveOn. If Hillary had won, the media would be calling her every liberal name in the book right now.
In any case, too much heat, not enough light.
later - rootless-e
And now, less gas.
actual hard questions were not allowed because... because... Hope! Change!! HITLERY!!!
dave™©
That's certainly all some people heard.
Agreed. And the fact that we've got no choices other than Republican Lite is obscured both by the General Electric media and by MoveOn. If Hillary had won, the media would be calling her every liberal name in the book right now.
Yup.
Dropping in to say I found caffeinated beer in this town! I shall commence drinking.
He's such a maverick! He goes to the teachers' association meeting and tells them that he is in favor of the most odious of ideas: merit pay.
Luckily, we love Mavericks, eh?
In parting, I'll just say that Al Franken will be my hero if he squashes Norm "Turd" Coleman.
Peace.
They are still selling the Hillary nutcrackers, by the way. Not sure what that tells about the buyers.
They are still selling the Hillary nutcrackers, by the way. Not sure what that tells about the buyers.
I'd be willing to hazard a guess about the size of their penii. But that would be wrong.
They are still selling the Hillary nutcrackers, by the way. Not sure what that tells about the buyers.
Echidne
Those are investments... the purchasers are planning on financing their retirements by selling them on eBay in twenty years.
And after his pronouncement on who should be "worthy" of an abortion, I have less faith in him not knuckling under than I did before.
So, Obama is going appoint another couple of Alitos as president?
Who would he be knuckling under to to do that?
Luckily, we love Mavericks, eh?
What a fucking stupid ass. [still sober]
And Barack, it really is my wish that someday one of your daughters will have a job where she is a teacher with a maladjusted, criminally insane administrator who is in charge of making the recommendation for her "merit pay."
Ask Blodge or anyone who has worked the harder end of the educational scale what they think of administrators having that kind of power over teachers. You might be surprised at what you hear.
the fact that we've got no choices other than Republican Lite
except that there's nothing lite about mcthuselah.
and the real effort should be pressuring the congress, governors and local officials to the left. obama will not have an easy time bucking proposals from his own party, whereas mccain would thrive on it.
which is why any dem is better than none in the oval office. so staying home is not an option, there are other seats up for grabs. perhaps if money that would have gone to obama (i'm not worried about him, he'll win) is redirected toward real progressives, he'll get the message.
We all do understand that renato has debouched to the Italian isles of his father's people, don't we?
We are fully and entirely envious, no?
well, that buttermilk cake ain't gonna make itself...
Those are investments... the purchasers are planning on financing their retirements by selling them on eBay in twenty years.
If things keep going the way they are, they'll be trading them for a loaf of bread a lot sooner that that....
And after his pronouncement on who should be "worthy" of an abortion, I have less faith in him not knuckling under than I did before.
Who are you quoting?
Who would he be knuckling under to to do that?
Richard | 07.05.08 - 7:12 pm | #
to whom is he knucking under on fisa?
there's no reason for him to support this bill. none.
well, that buttermilk cake ain't gonna make itself...
Ooh! I have a great recipe. If it's mine, cut the ground cloves to half.
We were left no choice.
Edwards ran to the left of both of them, but the media loathes him. They picked the final 2 BECAUSE Obama and Clinton were Repub light.
Who are you quoting?
rootless-e
Trademark Dave.
Ooh! I have a great recipe. If it's mine, cut the ground cloves to half.
it's a simple one - going to jazz it up a bit.
obama is a little further to the right on most social issues. and
more likely to be pressured further right - hillary, i thought, would
take her stand in the center and not budge.
I was sillier than that. I estimated that in the absolutely vital bureaucratic and administrative arena, Senator Clinton had far superior skills and expertise than does Senator Obama. I still believe this to be true. The equivalent girly comparison is that the person who has been Chairman of the PTA Ways and Means Committee knows lots and lots more and different ways to succeed than does a general member.
GWPDA, yclept Irate Historian
Realistic old geezer that I am, I figured Hillary would spend eight years settling scores with the vast right-wing comspiracy, doing the necessary work of cleaning the Liberty U grads out of the bureaucracy. And then Obama could have walked in and enjoyed eight years of relative freedom from sabotage.
Who are you quoting?
rootless-e | 07.05.08 - 7:13 pm | #
obama opining on what are valid reasons for women to chose abortion.
Ask Blodge or anyone who has worked the harder end of the educational scale what they think of administrators having that kind of power over teachers. You might be surprised at what you hear.
DWD - S☮S |
Whoa, what are you saying? Who said 'merit pay'? I am stupid, I assumed you meant McCain. [holding breath until you answer]
Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama on Saturday thanked the National Education Association for its endorsement but also made it clear that he continues to support merit pay for teachers.
His position is a controversial one with the 3.2 million member group and it has earned him criticism when he addressed the NEA in 2007.
“Now I know this wasn’t necessarily the most popular part of my speech last year but I said it then and I’m saying it again now because it’s what I believe and I will always be an honest partner to you in the White House,” said the Illinois senator, who spoke to the group via satellite from Montana.
Obama proposes to raise teacher pay through merit based rewards for work above and beyond their positions. The issue has long been a widely opposed proposal among the NEA due to its potential for abuse through favoritism and “subjective” evaluations.
http://thehill.com/campaign-2008...2008-07-
05.html
That is an ignorant, silly and right wing, ass-licking position that makes no sense under any circumstances position.
it's a simple one - going to jazz it up a bit.
The batter in a buttermilk cake tastes so good I always think it might not be worth baking at all.
I figured Hillary would spend eight years settling scores with the vast right-wing comspiracy, doing the necessary work of cleaning the Liberty U grads out of the bureaucracy.
possibly the latter. she'd be too busy for the former, and the press would have a field day if they could present her policies in that light.
The issue has long been a widely opposed proposal among the NEA due to its potential for abuse through favoritism and “subjective” evaluations.
Most of us are pretty accustomed to working in conditions where favoritism and subjective evaluations are standard operating procedure, by the way.
The batter in a buttermilk cake tastes so good I always think it might not be worth baking at all.
I need to make another batch of that cherry/honey and fennel bread. It is delicious.
The batter in a buttermilk cake tastes so good I always think it might not be worth baking at all.
Heh.
I'll send some through the wormhole. The rest, I'm afraid, is intended for dinner tomorrow.
Failed Obama Presidency.
The batter in a buttermilk cake tastes so good I always think it might not be worth baking at all.
Ah, childhood memories of getting one of the mixmaster beaters covered with batter.
I think Obama's campaign isn't doing that moving-to-the-right bidness as subtly as it should be done.
I just called
To say
I love you!
HICA!
Yay, got Opera 9.5 reinstalled and functioning!
.
Feeding the toddler dinner. I asked him if he wanted more noodles. He told me, "That isn't noodles daddy. That's pasta with pesto."
He thinks I am an idiot.
dirk,
Yeah, that's still where I come out, in essence, but I don't have to like it. And I esp. don't have to like it after months of hearing how he was so much better than she was and Hope! and Change!
I said all along that both were to my right. Oddly, batshit insane old feminist that I am, I was right.
But I can still be pissed off enough to close my checkbook and to spend my Saturdays gardening instead of campaigning.
silly me, i thought if one called the medicare number about a claim, one would be talking to somebody from medicare. "who are you?" "this is a private company that subcontracts with medicare."
For the superstitious things happen in "Threes".
Russert, Helms, ???
how come nobody ever talks about merit pay for politicians?
Russert, Helms, ???
Gimlet
Nancy Reagan
but I said it then and I’m saying it again now because it’s what I believe
Jesus H. Christ, I am forty-five years old, who do I have to blow to see a progressive president in the white house?
DWD- Could a merit pay system for teachers work if it were done through a peer review system, rather than administrative fiat?
But I can still be pissed off enough to close my checkbook and to spend my Saturdays gardening instead of campaigning.
You wanna come out here and work on clearing out the pool instead? So far it's now a nice milky shade of blue - soon - PRECIPITATED DEAD ALGAE!
Jesus H. Christ, I am forty-five years old, who do I have to blow to see a progressive president in the white house?
Pat Buchanan.
Most of us are pretty accustomed to working in conditions where favoritism and subjective evaluations are standard operating procedure, by the way.
SteveLG
Teaching is as well. But to make it even more so is ridiculous. At least now when an administrator has a personal grudge against a teacher the union can help us. Under such a plan as merit pay this would not be possible.
Steve, you have never seen how incompetent and evil this silly people are. They earn their position by being ass lickers and stay in position by being inoffensive and never doing anything to be noticed. They trample on anyone who upsets the status quo. In many cases they care nothing for the children or the teachers and only care about being the "Boss" and not actually having to do anything but look important and collect the extra salary.
Jesus H. Christ, I am forty-five years old, who do I have to blow to see a progressive president in the white house?
Pat Buchanan.
/Girds courage to the sticking point
Failed Obama Presidency.
Before he's even the fucking nominee?
obama opining on what are valid reasons for women to chose abortion.
dirk gently, sociopathetic | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 7:15 pm | #
Really? Where? What I saw was a small bit of pandering on a fake issue ivented by the right- late term abortions. This is an issue that all mainstream dems pander on because the wingers have been very effective in selling the theory that liberals want to abort healthy 9 month fetus for fun and because the democrats suck. For example:
LAZIO: I had a pro-choice record in the House, and I believe in a woman’s right to choose. I support a ban on partial-birth abortions. Senator Moynihan called it “infanticide.” Even former mayor Ed Koch agreed that this was too extreme a procedure. This is an area where I disagree with my opponent. My opponent opposes a ban on partial-birth abortions.
CLINTON: My opponent is wrong. I have said many times that I can support a ban on late-term abortions, including partial-birth abortions, so long as the health and life of the mother is protected.
Then I saw a concerted and ridiculous campaign to take Obama's standard pandering and turn it into an argument that he is anti-choice. That is, his career support of reproductive rights and detailed position speeches can be discarded because he does the same stupid shuffle the rest of them do.
http://
lauraetch.googlepages.com...arenthoodaction
Failed Obama Presidency.
Before he's even the fucking nominee?
sidhra صي ذ& | 07.05.08 - 7:22 pm | #
im going way out on a limb in saying that was snark.
Failed Obama Presidency.
Before he's even the fucking nominee?
But of course!
DWD- Could a merit pay system for teachers work if it were done through a peer review system, rather than administrative fiat?
Gromit
No
If you want to do a merit pay system then do a pre-test post-test that is comprehensive. If the children learn what they should: pay is standard. If they learn less than they should (on average, pay is diminished 5%. If children learn more than they should - increase the pay by 2% for each percentage higher they learn.
Leave subjective review out of it.
PRECIPITATED DEAD ALGAE!
Biomass!
(And I still think you should have invested in an attractive pool boy, rather than a mechanical contraption)
Reporter: You said that mental distress shouldn't be a reason for late-term abortion?
Obama: "My only point is this -- historically I have been a strong believer in a women's right to choose with her doctor, her pastor and her family. And it is ..I have consistently been saying that you have to have a health exception on many significant restrictions or bans on abortions including late-term abortions.
In the past there has been some fear on the part of people who, not only people who are anti-abortion, but people who may be in the middle, that that means that if a woman just doesn't feel good then that is an exception. That's never been the case.
I don't think that is how it has been interpreted. My only point is that in an area like partial-birth abortion having a mental, having a health exception can be defined rigorously. It can be defined through physical health, It can be defined by serious clinical mental-health diseases. It is not just a matter of feeling blue. I don't think that's how pro-choice folks have interpreted it. I don't think that's how the courts have interpreted it and I think that's important to emphasize and understand."
According to Linda Douglass, the Obama campaign's senior spokesperson, the senator from Illinois was making a distinction in the magazine interview between medically diagnosed mental illness and the kind of mental distress that an unwanted pregnancy causes many a pregnant mother.
"Mental distress is not an illness." Douglass said. "He absolutely believes and has always said there has to be a health exception for serious physical and mental illness."
That makes sense and conforms to the senator's co-sponsorship of the Freedom of Choice Act legislation which, among other things, would codify a mental-health exception to late-term abortion prohibitions.
The problem for the senator was when he appeared to be making a clear demarcation between physical and mental health in his magazine interview by saying:
Now, I don't think that "mental distress" qualifies as the health of the mother. I think it has to be a serious physical issue that arises in pregnancy, where there are real, significant problems to the mother carrying that child to term...
He clearly needed to add one more thought to that statement. He did it today.
Failed Obama Presidency.
He's a MONSTER!
Russert, Helms...
No I want it to be three hardcore wingnuts, with Helms the first. I want two more fascist wingnuts.
If only Limbaugh's combination of obesity and substance-abuse would make him keel over like Russert.
He's a MONSTER!
WORSE THAN CARTER!
Obama may win the red states for the Presidency but not for Congress.
PRECIPITATED DEAD ALGAE!
It's great on toast.
i thought if one called the medicare number about a claim, one would be talking to somebody from medicare. "who are you?" "this is a private company that subcontracts with medicare."
pretzelattack | 07.05.08 - 7:19 pm | #
probably BCBS. actually, not the worst system, and a model for how the private ins cos don't have to all be gutted on the day universal healthcare arrives. and, iirc, BCBS has non-profit licensees that handle the medicare.
If only Limbaugh's combination of obesity and substance-abuse would make him keel over like Russert.
R. McGeddon | 07.05.08 - 7:24 pm | #
bush would probably give him a medal of freedome, posthumously.
Obama may win the red states for the Presidency but not for Congress.
Doesn't have to win all of 'em. Just a few seats, jack.
women's right to choose with her doctor, her pastor and her family.
It's not my doctor's body. It's most emphatically not my pastor's body and it's not my family's body.
If you are trying to make me feel any better about him iz not working.
DWD- Could a merit pay system for teachers work if it were done through a peer review system, rather than administrative fiat?
Gromit | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 7:21 pm | #
Have you ever taught in a Middle School? The teachers are often no better than the students.
Failed Obama Presidency.
NTodd, Super Grand Poomba
that's a given. although, to be fair, i have a different definition of success than many other folk.
to be fair, i have a different definition of success than many other folk.
Turning Mecca into glass?
If you want to do a merit pay system then do a pre-test post-test that is comprehensive. If the children learn what they should: pay is standard. If they learn less than they should (on average, pay is diminished 5%. If children learn more than they should - increase the pay by 2% for each percentage higher they learn.
Leave subjective review out of it.
DWD - S☮S | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 7:23 pm | #
So you'll pay teachers in wealthier districts more because the students they get are better able to perform in the classroom setting and pay teachers at schools serving poverty stricken areas less because they get students who are much, much less ready.
Meanwhile nothing will change.
(Not even remotely arguing that subjective merit pay would be remotely better.
I think Obama's campaign isn't doing that moving-to-the-right bidness as subtly as it should be done.
Echidne | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 7:19 pm | #
Amazing how the week that Rove's guys took over McCain's campaign we suddenly had a spate of stories about Obama going back on his positions. Nobody could have anticipated ...
If you are trying to make me feel any better about him iz not working.
Hecate, Runnymeade Conspirator
Me either.
I am voting for him and even working for him but why can't he just run as a Democrat? I would rather vote for a Democrat than a Republican, you know?
Merit pay? FISA? Abortion? Whatever? State the party line and live with it. If you don't want to make a big deal about it, don't. But don't tell the rest of the party to kiss your ass either, Barack.
Steve, you have never seen how incompetent and evil this silly people are. They earn their position by being ass lickers and stay in position by being inoffensive and never doing anything to be noticed. They trample on anyone who upsets the status quo. In many cases they care nothing for the children or the teachers and only care about being the "Boss" and not actually having to do anything but look important and collect the extra salary.
DWD - S☮S
Oh, I've seen 'em... one daughter completed the public school system, another with a year to go.
That's what administrators do.
It's nothing you don't see in every line of work, but with childrens' educations at stake the consequences are tragic.
It's not my doctor's body. It's most emphatically not my pastor's body and it's not my family's body.
It's God's body, of course.
Ok, going out to plant the flowers in the old truck wheel I rolled home from the park. It looks very impressive.
Obama may win the red states for the Presidency but not for Congress.
jp | 07.05.08 - 7:25 pm | #
special election results this year suggest that is not true.
They trample on anyone who upsets the status quo. In many cases they care nothing for the children or the teachers and only care about being the "Boss" and not actually having to do anything but look important and collect the extra salary.
They should have been weeded out before they got that far.
probably BCBS. actually, not the worst system, and a model for how the private ins cos don't have to all be gutted on the day universal healthcare arrives. and, iirc, BCBS has non-profit licensees that handle the medicare.
dirk gently, sociopathetic | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 7:25 pm | #
well, ive spoken to several people (thinking it was medicare) and i've gotten several different answers. it almost seems a lottery, at this stage of the process, of getting somebody that is interested in helping versus somebody interested in denying claims.
But of course!
Well, all righty, then!
It's God's body, of course.
NTodd, Super Grand Poomba
does that mean he's repsonsible for repairs?
Okay, since no one wants to talk to me, I'll just drop off some new Curly, and go get some beer.
.
I dunno, DWD. Your way sounds too much like NCLB. I know there's a huge history here, and should not interject. Perhaps a strict time in service scheme is best until the system provides enough dollars so that teachers as a group are where they should be.
does that mean he's repsonsible for repairs?
dirk gently, sociopathetic | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 7:29 pm | #
only as long as it's under warranty.
does that mean he's repsonsible for repairs?
Yes, he uses blue "cross".
does that mean he's repsonsible for repairs?
Only if you chose the extended service warranty at time of purchase.
So you'll pay teachers in wealthier districts more because the students they get are better able to perform in the classroom setting and pay teachers at schools serving poverty stricken areas less because they get students who are much, much less ready.
Meanwhile nothing will change.
(Not even remotely arguing that subjective merit pay would be remotely better.
Did you read what I wrote? I will GLADLY live with the results of pre-test, post-test evaluation. I taught in the very situation you are describing. My children AVERAGE a growth of 1.5 years for the year I had them. In my case my pay, under the system I described would have doubled!
It's God's body, of course.
NTodd, Super Grand Poomba
does that mean he's repsonsible for repairs?
The Quiverful people write about all this. The woman's body belongs to God and God wants her to have as many children as can be fitted in. The body is on loan from God.
I didn't find anything about men's bodies being on loan but perhaps that will be for later.
Pat Buchanan.
NTodd, Super Grand Poomba
NToddler, I am happy for you and all that crusty bullshit, but I think you are supposed to be kinder when you are in love and getting sex on a regular basis. I have watched an elastrater used on bulls before and I think I could make a rubber band work nicely. [all in good fun, of course]
I didn't find anything about men's bodies being on loan but perhaps that will be for later.
We have a rent-to-own system.
It's God's body, of course.
Reminds me of the story about the farmer who took over a farm full of rocks and barren land. After a few years of v hard work, the farm began to produce and the pastor came around, wondering why Farmer hadn't joined the congregation and wasn't tithing. He said, "Brother, the Lord has been good to you and has worked this farm with you to his greater glory." Farmer said, "Pastor, you should have seen it when god was working it all by himself."
Nobody could have anticipated ...
How easily liberals could be made to embrace GOPer talking points about their candidate.
somebody that is interested in helping versus somebody interested in denying claims.
pretzelattack | 07.05.08 - 7:28 pm | #
the insurance billing person at the doctors office might be helpful - depending on the office, of course. having worked in the industry some, i can tell you the medical office folk know who to talk to and how to talk to them.
It's God's body, of course.
NTodd, Super Grand Poomba
Does that mean we're all made out of bread? If so, what about people with celiac disease?
I think you are supposed to be kinder when you are in love and getting sex on a regular basis.
I'll be kinder when we finish moving all this shit out of E's apartment and I'm not on a first name basis with the charitable organization dropoff people.
I think it would be lovely if we had a parliamentary system with a lot of little micro-parties based on our narrow little interests and we had to find our place in a coalition and could be free of the illusion that we needed to fall in love with the prime minister.
Okay, since no one wants to talk to me, I'll just drop off some new Curly, and go get some beer.
try bashing obama. or hillary. someone will talk.
pretzelattack | 07.05.08 - 7:28 pm | #
CMS is a Medicare subcontractor. I am not sure who the others are but getting through to a live human on a Saturday evening isn't too likely.
"Pastor, you should have seen it when god was working it all by himself."
We help gods who help themselves.
the insurance billing person at the doctors office might be helpful - depending on the office, of course. having worked in the industry some, i can tell you the medical office folk know who to talk to and how to talk to them.
dirk gently, sociopathetic | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 7:31 pm | #
thanks, ill try that.
"Pastor, you should have seen it when god was working it all by himself."
Hecate, Runnymeade Conspirator
So:
1. Obama has a career of being explicitly pro-choice - a position he has reiterated many times.
2. He gives an interview to an evangelical newsletter in which he says something that any rational reader understands to be a reiteration of the standard line on late-term abortion that is held by Planned Parenthood, NARAL, and so on - in an attempt to counter winger stories about how babies are being killed in the birth canal as they pop out.
3. There is an immediate frenzy in which, take a look at Shakespeare's sister for examples, we are told that he is an anti-choice extremist, a man who believes woman's bodies are chattel, etc. etc.
4. He makes explicit what anyone could have seen.
5. Crickets.
How many times do we go through this cycle? Are people going to cooperate with the press as it searches for each sloppy formulation for an opportunity or not?
I dunno, DWD. Your way sounds too much like NCLB. I know there's a huge history here, and should not interject. Perhaps a strict time in service scheme is best until the system provides enough dollars so that teachers as a group are where they should be.
Gromit
Not disagreeing. You asked me if peer review would work. I said no but this might.
And as I stated above, in my case I could have gotten rich. (I had one class that went up 2.3 years according to my tests. 130 * .02 = (2.6 X Salary)
the illusion that we needed to fall in love with the prime minister.
Or the illusion that to criticize him when he's wrong is somehow not permissible.
We help gods who help themselves.
BOOM chaka laka laka BOOM chaka laka laka.
i eventually got through to a couple of live humans. the one at humana was very helpful, the medicare subcontractor seemed to be looking for reasons not to be. ive got a lot of options, yet. i think ill spend some quality time with the latest medicare manual tomorrow.
rootless,
You keep digging.
Saying women don't get to choose what to do with their own bodies is not ok. I don't care if it's your hero du jour who says it or whomever. Obama can keep saying this stuff and you can keep explaining why it's A-OK. I'm going to keep on not liking it.
JP get Sparks, beer with caffeine. Drink with me.
The Quiverful people write about all this. The woman's body belongs to God and God wants her to have as many children as can be fitted in. The body is on loan from God.
Shame their god didn't give them a brain.
Or the illusion that to criticize him when he's wrong is somehow not permissible.
Hecate, Runnymeade Conspirator
I never know what to say when you adopt this position.
Who the fuck would tell you what you can and cannot say? You might not like what you hear back, of course, but that's the other side of what's "permissible."
In the meantime, Obama's website harbors various "dissident" subchapters on subjects such as FISA. I think that's hopeful.
seems like the caffeine would counteract the effect of the alcohol, offhand.
I had one class that went up 2.3 years according to my tests.
Excellent. I guess I'd be at least as suspicious of what test was chosen as the standard as I would of other review system.
But the bottom line is that the education system is the most critical form of national infrastructure that we have, and that we need to get to the point where the system adequately funded in its entirety, and get there quickly.
camelot: JP get Sparks, beer with caffeine. Drink with me.
Did you really FIND that shit...?! And then... buy it?
.
This happened the last time. Other blogs get people pissed off and they come here and vent. WTF?
SteveLG
Well I assumed that I was agreeing with you.
Obama's website harbors various "dissident" subchapters on subjects such as FISA. I think that's hopeful.
Yeah, that makes me feel much better.
Beer and caffeine don't sound like a good combination.
seems like the caffeine would counteract the effect of the alcohol, offhand.
pretzelattack
Are you not aware of the phenomenon of the alert drunk?
Russert, Helms, ???
Gimlet
Nancy Reagan
trifecta
Sean Hannity or Bill O'Reilly - that'd make my day.
Suppose I should join my company again.
Later, 'bats.
And thank you very much, I will support our nominee to the death when I feel he merits my support. I will also criticize him as often and as loudly as I please when I feel he is pandering to the mushy middle or the right wing assholes with positions that I feel do not reflect my beliefs or what I perceive to be the beliefs of the progressive and proudly liberal wing of the Democratic party. Thank you very much.
Peace.
Hecate: Yeah, that makes me feel much better.
Hillary's stance was substantively different...?
.
i eventually got through to a couple of live humans. the one at humana was very helpful
that's good - a call to your doc's office manager/insurance biller couldn't hurt in any case.
Saying women don't get to choose what to do with their own bodies is not ok.
So you are saying that there is no permissible restriction that a state can place on abortions?
I mean, you and I might agree about that philosophically but I don't think there's an elected official in the country who'd state it publicly as a matter of policy.
There were two primary candidates who have actively and vocally opposed Bush on FISA. Neither ever got to five per cent in a primary.
This happened the last time. Other blogs get people pissed off and they come here and vent. WTF?
camelot | 07.05.08 - 7:40 pm | #
i think eschaton has lost some regulars. i dont know how many, but once upon a time, there would usually be over a hundred "visitors"; fewer, now.
Beer and caffeine don't sound like a good combination.
R. McGeddon | 07.05.08 - 7:40 pm | #
buzz beer!
How many times do we go through this cycle? Are people going to cooperate with the press as it searches for each sloppy formulation for an opportunity or not?
rootless-e
I keep considering the alternative.
The fucker who wants to keep us in Iraq for 100 years and who will turn this world into a mushroom cloud if permitted to.
Yes JP, I went into almost every bar in this town, I swear one had a dirt floor but that isn't legal is it? This is the only caffeinated beer to be found. Of course I bought it, I'm curious.
So you are saying that there is no permissible restriction that a state can place on abortions?
That is what I am saying. It is my body. There's no compromise between people who say that my body belongs to the state and my position, which is that it belongs to me.
So you are saying that there is no permissible restriction that a state can place on abortions?
the same that can be put on any medical procedure. which imho is pretty minimal.
you're just trying to trick me into googling "alert drunk". ok, ill fall for it.
So you are saying that there is no permissible restriction that a state can place on abortions?
There shouldn't be any restrictions on abortion of any kind.
camelot: Yes JP, I went into almost every bar in this town, I swear one had a dirt floor but that isn't legal is it? This is the only caffeinated beer to be found. Of course I bought it, I'm curious.
Are you blogging from a bar...? Or are bars the only places to obtain alcohol in your locale? I know Tyler, TX used to be like that.
.
So you are saying that there is no permissible restriction that a state can place on my penis?
Chew on that for a while, asshole.
I must go on a cat food.
Be back in a few.
I had one class that went up 2.3 years according to my tests.
Excellent. I guess I'd be at least as suspicious of what test was chosen as the standard as I would of other review system.
But the bottom line is that the education system is the most critical form of national infrastructure that we have, and that we need to get to the point where the system adequately funded in its entirety, and get there quickly.
Gromit
I used a standardized survey of reading ability and a mathematics survey as well. In the elementary school these are the primary subjects that should be tested. The others are reflections of these. Writing and spelling and English grammar are taught with the reading program and science and social studies should be taught as both reading and, where appropriate, math. Mathematics stands alone except for where it intersects with reading (again)
The primary grades teacher is most concerned about not teaching content but teaching the mind to accept new information and to categorize it and to use this information to extrapolate further information.
(It is much different that secondary teaching in that we are not teaching information as an end, we are teaching process and information is the means to the end.)
Later.
you're just trying to trick me into googling "alert drunk". ok, ill fall for it.
pretzelattack
Just an old line that my spouse uses with her patients.
try new buzz beer for your beer buzz!
I'm with Hecate on this one. I'm gonna vote for Obama, but unless he starts dancin' with those wha brung 'im, I ain't gonna give him no more turkee, and I ain't gonna help him none beyond my vote.
Beer and caffeine don't sound like a good combination.
R. McGeddon | 07.05.08 - 7:40 pm | #
I'll move on to Martinis.
BTW NTodd, thanks for abandoning us in the middle of 'The Great Rape War of "08.' Two threads worth and I'm still trying to make amends with people.
My own position on abortion is: On demand, without apology, and the government has no more say in it than an apendectomy or root canal.
But I'm not running for president of the United States and Obama isn't running for president of the liberal blogosphere.
Chew on that for a while, asshole.
dave™©
Dave, sometimes you are so far below useless that it make me sad.
You are totally out of your depth in any give and take, aren't you?
(It is much different that secondary teaching in that we are not teaching information as an end, we are teaching process and information is the means to the end.)
Later.
DWD
Very nice way to put it. Have a great evening.
i think eschaton has lost some regulars...pretzelattack
Eli was stopped, you know.
So you are saying that there is no permissible restriction that a state can place on my penis?
Chew on that for a while, asshole.
dave™© | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 7:45 pm | #
Actually, there are many legal restrictions on what you can do with your penis.
This beer looks like Orange Crush and smells like shampoo.
Change you can forget about.
David Derbes: I'm with Hecate on this one. I'm gonna vote for Obama, but unless he starts dancin' with those wha brung 'im, I ain't gonna give him no more turkee, and I ain't gonna help him none beyond my vote.
Always was my plan -- he doesn't need my money, anyway. If he couldn't win this election in a cakewalk, I give the fuck up, anyway.
.
That is what I am saying. It is my body. There's no compromise between people who say that my body belongs to the state and my position, which is that it belongs to me.
'S truth. This is not a public matter. People can talk, but it is my blood and bones.
BTW NTodd, thanks for abandoning us in the middle of 'The Great Rape War of "08.' Two threads worth and I'm still trying to make amends with people.
Bah, that was more fun than a Mac/PC war.
Eli was stopped, you know.
Upsidasium | 07.05.08 - 7:47 pm | #
hmm, well that's worth something. i thought he was unstoppable
Davies on Correcting Search-and-Seizure History
The conventional view that search-and-seizure history is simply Fourth Amendment history is incorrect. Sir Edward Coke explicated common-law standards for warrantless arrest in detail in his discussion of the due process of law required by Magna Carta's the law of the land chapter, and the Framers were undoubtedly conversant with that treatment. Moreover, framing-era warrantless arrest standards were virtually unchanged from Coke's time.
The framing-era warrantless arrest standards were more demanding than the modern bare probable cause standard. Warrantless felony arrests required (1) a felony having actually been committed in fact and (2) the arresting person personally having probable grounds to suspect the arrestee. Warrantless nonfelony arrests were limited to on-going breach-of-peace offenses.
Because arrest standards appeared noncontroversial, the initial State Framers were content to preserve arrest standards in provisions that prohibited a person being taken or arrested except according to the law of the land. Alexander Hamilton then altered that terminology to due process of law in the 1787 New York arrest provision. The Federal Framers then included due process of law among the pretrial requisites for initiating criminal prosecutions in the Fifth Amendment (rather than among the trial rights in the Sixth). In contrast, the Fourth Amendment simply banned issuance of too-loose warrants, but did not address warrantless intrusions.
Framing-era arrest standards and the Cokean understanding of due process were lost when nineteenth-century state courts relaxed arrest standards to bare probable cause, thereby drastically expanding governmental investigatory powers. The Supreme Court then reinvented search-and-seizure under the Fourth Amendment, and created the modern reasonableness standard, during the early twentieth century. Thus, the authentic history involves lost understandings and drastic doctrinal discontinuities.
http://legalhistoryblog.blogspot...bd-
seizure.html
Earlier Mich Law Review article by Davies in PDF.
Recovering the Original Fourth Amendment
http://www.law.utk.edu/FACULTY/4...TY/
4thamend.pdf
Obama has my vote. Now - does he want my support?
This beer looks like Orange Crush and smells like shampoo.
camelot | 07.05.08 - 7:47 pm | #
im not sure how to work that into the marketing campaign
OK, you lovely, liberal Moonbats. I love even the ones of you who are pissing me off this evening. The well-dressed man has some marinated flesh just coming off the grill and some Stravinsky on the speakers.
Dream sweet dreams about the things that you need most to dream about. See at least one person in your dreams whom you need to see and ask them at least one question that you need to ask them.
It's all real. It's all metaphor. There's always more.
Actually, there are many legal restrictions on what you can do with your penis.
...and your fists, and your trigger finger, and your droppings, and your blood, and your sputum....
But none of these are medical procedures, as abortion is.
Framing-era arrest standards and the Cokean understanding of due process were lost when nineteenth-century state courts relaxed arrest standards to bare probable cause, thereby drastically expanding governmental investigatory powers....
States rights, anyone?
Paul? Dr. Paul? Paging Dr. Paul...
Okay, now I'm REALLY off for the (non-shampoo-smelling) beer.
bbl
.
This beer looks like Orange Crush and smells like shampoo.
camelot
Piques my interest, if not my palate.
What is the cut off point? Serious question. If the baby is out, but the cord is still attached is it still ok to "abort"?
Not being snarky here. I think most people believe in choice, but most people aren't purists.
I believe in birth control, and a woman's right to choose. I do get queasy about elective abortion in the 8 and 9 month range and am not planning to apologize for it.
I'll move on to Martinis.
the war on pimentoes will never end
That is what I am saying. It is my body. There's no compromise between people who say that my body belongs to the state and my position, which is that it belongs to me.
You stated yesterday that you'd be OK with a woman having abortion in the 8th month if her husband dumped her.
I'm curious to know how far you'd be willing to extend that.
Would you consider an elective abortion permissable up to the moment the contractions start?
What about after that? Let say doctors were allowed to administer something to insure a stillbirth at that point. Would you be OK with that?
'Blogging from a bar' Here, are you crazy? There was a six-pack shop, but it is connected to a bar. No I cannot go to a grocery store, only a bar to get beer.
Actually, there are many legal restrictions on what you can do with your penis.
most of them have to do with what you can do to OTHER people with it.
So, how 'bout those Yankees? That old guy Mussina still has something left, eh?
I'm curious to know how far you'd be willing to extend that.
Let's go to the tape:
It is my body. There's no compromise between people who say that my body belongs to the state and my position, which is that it belongs to me.
Question asked and answered.
Now - how much of your control over your penis are you willing to cede to the state? Some people think penises are icky, too.
No I cannot go to a grocery store, only a bar to get beer.
Strange place, Pennsyltucky.
I do get queasy about elective abortion in the 8 and 9 month range and am not planning to apologize for it.
I would assume you are not planning to get one. Good thing you have the choice.
What about after that? Let say doctors were allowed to administer something to insure a stillbirth at that point. Would you be OK with that?
Richard
You are looking for the place to draw the line where abortion is OK and where it is not.
How about starting with the question of when life begins?
Dave, you are being a real asshole about this. It's not a simple issue for people. You being a dick really doesn't illuminate the issue at all.
I'm curious to know how far you'd be willing to extend that.
and what if a man wanted to marry a box turtle?
seriously, i think we'd be better off using our energies on this issue to remove the stigma, educate on preventing unwanted pregnancies, and address the social and economic forces that might push someone to NEED to make a choice that perhaps they'd rather not have to face than to waste time dealing with ridiculous extremes.
Come on, kids. Some things can't be legislated, and women must be trusted to make the right decision, in their eyes, in consultation with their doctor.
you are being a real asshole about this.
Tough fucking shit.
and if a late term abortion isn't a good moral decision (if), that is still a separate question of whether the state has the power to prohibit it.
How about starting with the question of when life begins?
At 40.
you are being a real asshole about this.
Tough fucking shit.
dave™© | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 7:58 pm | #
now we're getting somewhere!
and if a late term abortion isn't a good moral decision
what is a good moral decision?
Strange place, Pennsyltucky
You have no idea. I am planning to work in the BO booth at the fair next week. I had never been to a fair until I moved to rural Pennsyltucky. I am seriously going to tell my local rent-a-cop neighbor to cover my ass while I'm working. You cannot imagine the rednecks. [I apologize to anyone this has offended]
How about starting with the question of when life begins?
About 3.8 billions years ago, on this planet, at least.
Now - how much of your control over your penis are you willing to cede to the state? Some people think penises are icky, too.
dave™© | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 7:55 pm | #
i think it's perfectly reasonable for the state to prohibit me from putting my penis inside someone who doesn't want it there.
I'm one of those old school "if men got pregnant, abortion would be a constitutional amendment" guys, and have been for over 30 years.
Seeing a bunch of so-called "progressives" wringing their hands over some icky decisions THEY'LL NEVER FUCKING HAVE TO MAKE OR SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES OF doesn't really convince me I should change my mind.
But here's an idea - let's extend the "sanctity of life" argument to the sacred penis. Since the penis delivers the holy fertilizer, without which the miracle of life cannot occur, let's outlaw vasectomies.
And any treatment for testicular cancer that would interfere with the delivery of said "bodily fluid."
what is a good moral decision?
dirk gently, sociopathetic | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 8:00 pm | #
right, but even if that issue is resolved in some fashion to conclude that it isn't, it still doesn't mean the state has any say in the matter.
If a woman, 8 months pregnant and healthy with a healthy fetus, suddenly decided she wanted an abortion, I imagine certain people like family members would raise questions about her compos mentis and could start a legal case that would last at least until the birth. And how easy would it be to find a doctor to perform an abortion in this case?
The question is: When does the fetus attain the legal protections of persnhood, like a corporation.
[I apologize to anyone this has offended]
Working in the BO booth it's more likely you'll be offended.
I am planning to work in the BO booth at the fair next week.
there's a prize for that?
People, the question I'm asking isn't what our personal beliefs are but whether the US Constitution places limits on the extent to which states can restrict the availability of abortions.
The holding in Roe says there are limits, based on the development of the fetus. It recognizes the fetus as an entity with progressively increasing countervaling interests... negligible at conception, but potentially significant at or beyond "viability."
That is not a position that pleases absolutists on either side, but it's a compromise that many of us feel is very wise and one we can live with.
what is a good moral decision?
One that springs from compassion.
Dave, fuck off. Seriously. I kept my mouth shut the last several months when you were the biggest asshole on the board about Obama, mainly because there were more people being real jerks about Clinton that your top place showing in the douchebag olympics was kind of pointless to object to.
That being said, I never suggested I would ban late term abortions if I was emperor. I just said it was a very tough moral issue.
You being such a blustering asshole has not brought anybody to your way of thinking if that was your point.
We all have our baggage. My last child was born premature and this was just a year ago. We were desperate to have him and not knowing if he would make it or not, at 7 months when my wife bled out kind of colors my opinions on late term abortions.
Oh and please killfile me. I will ignore you on my end from now on.
You have no idea. I am planning to work in the BO booth at the fair next week. I had never been to a fair until I moved to rural Pennsyltucky. I am seriously going to tell my local rent-a-cop neighbor to cover my ass while I'm working. You cannot imagine the rednecks.
Up here there are a group of people (extreme rednecks) that I never see except at the fair, and the one time I went to WWF wrestling. I have no idea where they dwell the rest of the year.
But good for you, the fair is exactly the right place to get the word out about Obama. And for better or worse, I think it's those people that he's been trying to address lately. So bring your thick skin and your best sense of humor, and let us know how it goes.
At 40.
If a woman, 8 months pregnant and healthy with a healthy fetus, suddenly decided she wanted an abortion
... i'd like to hear about it. especially if there was no stigma or interference or moralizing about it before then.
i'm not a woman, but i've played* one on stage. more importantly, i've been around and close to plenty of pregnant ones. and THEY know when it is a baby. and it isn't always on the same number of days of gestation.
(eek! good thing i proofread this before posting, i missed the 'p' key the first time)
there's a prize for that?
dirk gently, sociopathetic
I am prepared to be called many, and various ugly names.
If men could get pregnant there would be abortion clinics next to every bar, open 24/7.
(And I still think you should have invested in an attractive pool boy, rather than a mechanical contraption)
Ahem. I am the mechanical contraption.
Sidhra, My surgeon told me to wait two more weeks before getting my sailboat on the water. I'm looking at the boats on the bay and pining.
One that springs from compassion.
that could be easily argued against.
If men could get pregnant there would be abortion clinics next to every bar, open 24/7.
Judge Learned Handjob | 07.05.08 - 8:06 pm | #
except in pennsylvania
waste time dealing with ridiculous extremes.
Why is it a ridiculous extreme?
I presume from her words, Hecate is defining abortion to be a women's choice for as long as the fetus is still in the womb.
I'd like to know where the line drawn.
Ahem. I am the mechanical contraption.
(small voice) Oh, sorry. You said something about a professional cleaning head and I thought it was a gadget. 
My surgeon told me to wait two more weeks before getting my sailboat on the water. I'm looking at the boats on the bay and pining.
Just remember, pining at 8 months is illegal.
The question is: When does the fetus attain the legal protections of persnhood, like a corporation.
Judge Learned Handjob | 07.05.08 - 8:02 pm | #
when it shows a profit?
GWPDA
Picture Russ Feingold as your pool boy. [Imagine a pool boy that you could have a conversation with too!]
I'd like to know where the line drawn.
Some lines can't be drawn for all people and circumstances. This, I think, is the essence of a personal right to choose.
i think abortion might be the hardest issue when it comes to drawing lines. as somebody said above, we have a kind of workable compromise now, and that may be the best we can do.
Why is it a ridiculous extreme?
because the likelyhood of it happening is so minute and even at that is increased by failure to address the issue properly overall.
I guess the discussion on abortion is over.
this is a bit more of what Duncan put forth to start this chat, and it speaks loudly to the flaws of our candidate and the supine congress.
They just dont understand the Constitution and they fail in their solemn pledge to defend it and their moral duty to teach what it means.
I am deeply offended by the debate in Congress, which forswears our heritage and history.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
That's it. That's the Fourth Amendment. That is what these folks in Washington, D.C., have violated continuously and in secret for seven long years.
Somewhere across an ocean and a desert, hiding in his cave, a man of hate named Osama bin Laden is laughing up the sleeve of his dirty robe at the thought that he and a small handful of fellow fanatics could tie a great nation in knots — knots of fear stoked by our own leaders.
We have done incalculably more and greater damage to ourselves since September 11, 2001, than a thousand bin Ladens and ten thousand al Qaida recruits could ever have done to us.
Franklin D. Roosevelt famously declared that "we have nothing to fear but fear itself." Now it would seem that we have no one to fear but ourselves and our leaders.
The questions I pose are these:
How can even one senator on either side of the aisle in good conscience vote in favor of this law that does nothing to enhance our security and everything to diminish our rights as a free people?
How can both men who seek to become our next president cast such a vote when both should be standing shoulder-to-shoulder declaring that they would govern by our consent and with our approval, not by wielding the coercive and corrosive and corrupt powers that King George III and his latter-day namesake from Texas thought are theirs by divine right?
I apologize for getting overheated. It's not my intention to be an ass here.
I spoke too soon.
[Imagine a pool boy that you could have a conversation with too!]
camelot | 07.05.08 - 8:09 pm | #
ok forget keanu reeves
July 5, 2008, 4:54 pm
Obama Refines the Blame on Iraq Miscue
By Jeff Zeleny
ST. LOUIS – Two days ago, Senator Barack Obama said he had not been clear enough in explaining his Iraq policy. Today, there was a different rationale.
The confusion was not his fault, Mr. Obama said, but rather the media’s for seizing on three words he uttered in Fargo, N.D., when he suggested he would be open to “refine my policies” on Iraq.
“I was surprised by how finely calibrated every single word was measured,” he said, speaking to reporters as he flew here from Montana.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.c...on-iraq-miscue/
Long-predicted, pre-bemoaned.
-
I guess the discussion on abortion is over.
Gimlet | 07.05.08 - 8:10 pm | #
That was fast. Have we now covered every divisive subject for progressives? Can we please get down to the mud wrestling?
I'd like to know where the line drawn.
it's really more of an issue of who draws the line than when.
suppose that 8 mo fetus is discovered to have no brain stem, or suffered from some traumatic injury, but could be kept alive by artificial means? do you want to legislate every possible medical contingency?
Gromit, a bit of bottom prep tomorrow, then launch next week, goddess willing. BTW, district champs at MBBC 3rd week in September. We're hoping to show up to defend our title.
My original point stands. If you hold the position that until the moment of birth the choice should be at the complete discretion of the pregnant woman and you find politicians who say otherwise to be unacceptable, then there is no point in pretending an interest in the Democratic Party primary process because not one single elected official meets your criterion.
Hecate:
I'm about ready to sit this one out and I didn't think I'd ever say that.
I didn't know you had a sense of humor!
Why is it a ridiculous extreme?
because the likelyhood of it happening is so minute and even at that is increased by failure to address the issue properly overall.
dirk gently, sociopathetic |
you are so sexy when you're being smart and articulate. you can lay me on stage any time!
Given the amount of produce I have processed this evening, I think what I'd really like are a couple of student chefs. Maybe I could make La Casa del Geckos into a work-study program for the local Metro-Tech school? Could I get them to bring more canning jars? And some cider vinaigre? And 5lbs of sugar?
well, you could always talk about the new generation of "feminists".
Trifecta
It's okay, we are not Republicans, we all do not have to think exactly alike.
That was fast. Have we now covered every divisive subject for progressives? Can we please get down to the mud wrestling?
camelot
Chocolate : milk or dark?
i think abortion might be the hardest issue when it comes to drawing lines. as somebody said above, we have a kind of workable compromise now, and that may be the best we can do.
pretzelattack | 07.05.08 - 8:10 pm | #
i hate workable compromises at the expense of stepping on individual rights over which the state has no business being involved.
suppose that 8 mo fetus is discovered to have no brain stem, or suffered from some traumatic injury, but could be kept alive by artificial means? do you want to legislate every possible medical contingency?
dirk gently, sociopathetic
We haven't even gotten those issues worked out as regards folks who are undeniably "post-born."
New ad on Eschaton home page:
Progressive Pool Boys
"We clean your pool while stimulating your brain. Pleasure centers are our specialty."
the idea of chocolate wrestling intrigues me
because the likelyhood of it happening is so minute and even at that is increased by failure to address the issue properly overall.
Sorry, but the question of where, or if, a line should be drawn can't simply be ignored and shoved under the rug. It's a major part of the issue.
I spoke too soon.
Gimlet | 07.05.08 - 8:11 pm | #
just don't speak to late. say, in the third trimester.
Some lines can't be drawn for all people and circumstances. This, I think, is the essence of a personal right to choose.
Gromit
Don't be so negative. Some sense can come out of exploring the options.
I say life begins at conception. That makes the birth control pill and condoms OK forms of contraception but raises concerns about the "morning after pill" that interferes with implantation.
Yet "nobody" feels about preventing implantation the way they feel about an abortion moments before delivery.
The difference?
Some lines can't be drawn for all people and circumstances. This, I think, is the essence of a personal right to choose.
Not to mention being "secure in ones person". One of them penumbras and emanations. I tend to regard my womb as a distinct part of my person. Call me crazy.
Dark chocolate w/ raspberry.
Good God GWPDA, I have 100s of canning jars I've been trying to get rid of.
i hate workable compromises at the expense of stepping on individual rights over which the state has no business being involved.
dirk gently, sociopathetic | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 8:15 pm | #
sure. what compromise would you suggest?
i hate workable compromises at the expense of stepping on individual rights over which the state has no business being involved.
dirk gently, sociopathetic
A Constitutional amendment would seem to be the only way to go, then.
I apologize for getting overheated. It's not my intention to be an ass here.
trifecta |
you weren't an ass. you spoke clearly to the point of emotion affecting our decisions on this issue.
i am grateful i never had to face the decision to abort.
Women who have late-term abortions are exactly the kind of women you want to have late-term abortions.
If a woman, 8 months pregnant and healthy with a healthy fetus, suddenly decided she wanted an abortion
So rare as to be an outlier.
Chocolate : milk or dark?
racymind
The new house being built next door has a tricolor paint job reminiscent of an Edsel convertible.
When I asked the Russian owners about it, they explained that it was three kinds of chocolate: milk, white and dark.
It's lovely from the inside, but is starkly non-Vermont-ish on the outside.
Sopa de la frontera:
BOWL OF THE WIFE OF KIT CARSON
(When I lived in Abq, I was one street over from Kit Carson Avenue. I didn't like Kit Carson. His wife was okay tho.)
4 c. chicken broth
1 (15 oz.) can garbanzo beans, drained
1 c. chicken, cubed and cooked
1 - 2 chipotle peppers, minced, or 1 tsp. dried pepper flakes
Dash Liquid Smoke
1/2 tsp. paprika
1/2 tsp. dried oregano, crushed
1 med. avocado, sliced
1 c. rice, cooked and hot
1 c. monterey jack cheese, cubed
Bring broth to boil; add beans, chicken, chili peppers, Liquid Smoke, paprika and oregano. Cover and simmer 5 to 10 minutes. Add avocado slices. Mound rice and chunks of cheese in soup bowls. Ladle in hot soup.
Serves 6.
I myself prefer dark chocolate, and anyone here who prefers milk chocolate over dark chocolate wants the terrorists to win.
well, now that the sage of east oltorf has arrived, im sure the abortion issue will be cleared up quickly.
Mrs. Trifecta got me one of those newfangled chocolate chili candy bars at the Tar-jay tonight. It was quite delicious.
I myself prefer dark chocolate, and anyone here who prefers milk chocolate over dark chocolate wants the terrorists to win.
Dark chocolate. With ginger.
Sorry, but the question of where, or if, a line should be drawn can't simply be ignored and shoved under the rug. It's a major part of the issue.
Richard | 07.05.08 - 8:16 pm | #
why?
the examples are ridiculous and are such a minute subset of cases that they have no bearing. it's like addressing the issue of gun control by first restricting how far the bullet is allowed to travel before it falls to earth if it doesn't strike anything.
the late-term aspect is a made up issue. break the mindset of the state issuing moral proclamations to women and preventing people from obtaining useful sexual education and those extreme cases will go away. if they don't and we have to address them afterwards, ok, i'll be willing to re-address it. but as things stand now, it is of no concern. its a mcguffin.
Gimlet, morning after pills work exactly the same way as BC pills, by preventing implantation.
I myself prefer dark chocolate, and anyone here who prefers milk chocolate over dark chocolate wants the terrorists to win.
racymind | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 8:20 pm | #
I'm joining racyminds church. Amen.
If a woman, 8 months pregnant and healthy with a healthy fetus, suddenly decided she wanted an abortion
So rare as to be an outlier.
Sallyh, Grandmere Poissonniere
Part of the philosophical spectrum that needs to be consistently dealt with in a policy, even if rare.
i always have chocolate chili with my caffeinated beer.
very dar kchocolate ganache with raspberries is the perfect chocolate concoction.
Wasn't it Socrates who felt that his life belonged to the State, since it was the State that had nurtured and protected him? Even though he was to die unfairly, he had spent his life accepting the good from the State, so now he must accept the bad.
Plenty of people feel that the State is the higher power, not the individual. Even though we are fed the "life, liberty" stuff from day one, a scary number of people don't really believe it.
If the gov't is spying on you, you have nothing to worry about if you aren't doing anything wrong is for me an expression of the State is the higher power, not the individual.
I myself prefer dark chocolate, and anyone here who prefers milk chocolate over dark chocolate wants the terrorists to win.
racymind |
Whew! Dodged a bullet there!
I also prefer ales, porters and stouts and think pilsners and lagers are muslim!
Dark chocolate. With ginger.
strawberry. with mary anne.
Women who have late-term abortions are exactly the kind of women you want to have late-term abortions.
Like yer mom.
the late-term aspect is a made up issue
What it really is is a medical issue. Late term abortions are not done lightly by anyone. In nearly every recorded case, a fatal condition exists in the fetus, or the fetus is already dead in utero.
Gimlet, morning after pills work exactly the same way as BC pills, by preventing implantation.
Sallyh, Grandmere Poissonniere
No. Birth control pills interfere with ovulation primarily.
Gimlet, I'd argue it's on the medical spectrum, not the philosophical one.
sure. what compromise would you suggest?
pretzelattack | 07.05.08 - 8:17 pm | #
none.
is it too late to abort this conversation?
So rare as to be an outlier.
Sallyh, Grandmere Poissonniere
Absolutely.
But that's the case that the great "middle" (the ones who are neither anti-abortion absolutist nor freedom of choice absolutists) thinks of when they're trying to decide what the law ought to be.
So I don't think there's any reason to be agonizing over it when either Senator Obama or Senator Clinton acknowledges that there IS some line to be drawn, however infrequently that case may arise.
I will accept canning jar donations. As GWPDA, I am a tax-exempt foundation.
I CAN GIVE U A RECEIPT!!!
very dar kchocolate ganache with raspberries is the perfect chocolate concoction.
trifecta
Gimlet, but by preventing ovulation, you prevent implantation. Morning after pills have to be taken rapidly after unprotected intercourse. We're not talking a fetus here, or even an embryo.
Morning after pills have to be taken rapidly after unprotected intercourse. We're not talking a fetus here, or even an embryo.
Indeed.
's
Dark chocolate w/ raspberry.
'Slut Machine' is okay, as long as they don't steal 'Druts,' which was four friend's, of which I was one, abbreviated name for Drunken Slut.
Guess I'm on lead.
Gimlet, I'd argue it's on the medical spectrum, not the philosophical one.
Sallyh, Grandmere Poissonniere
Could be both, but elaborate as to why it's not philosophical.
What it really is is a medical issue. Late term abortions are not done lightly by anyone. In nearly every recorded case, a fatal condition exists in the fetus, or the fetus is already dead in utero.
well, yeah. i meant legislatively it is a made up issue. the example of a woman whose boyfriend dumps her at 8 mos so she suddenly decides to have an abortion. the whole idea behind such an argument is to stir an understandabel revulsion, for the purpose of gaining support for legislation that begins to impose moral standards that are no right of the state to impose.
I also prefer ales, porters and stouts and think pilsners and lagers are muslim!
ina, let them eat ice cream |
The invocation of the beer religion reminds me of the pantheon's beauty. I like'm all.
As GWPDA, I am a tax-exempt foundation.
I CAN GIVE U A RECEIPT!!!
The IRS has been known to question your kind of receipts, my lady.
"What do I do with this cookie receipt, boss?"
Gimlet, I don't think medical decisions are ever divorced from philosophical ones, but in terms of medically ethical behavior, the decision solely belongs to a woman and her health care provider. The state should have no interest in it whatsoever.
The invocation of the beer religion reminds me of the pantheon's beauty. I like'm all.
racymind
Even Meister Brau?
Gimlet, but by preventing ovulation, you prevent implantation.
No ovulation means no egg to get fertilized or implanted.
We're not talking a fetus here, or even an embryo.
Sallyh, Grandmere Poissonniere | 07.05.08 - 8:25 pm | #
once god manages to get that sperm in there, he wants a baby.
The state should have no interest in it whatsoever.
Give that lady a dark chocolate cigar!
GWPDA, yclept Irate Historian
Good deal. I assume I can find an address somewhere, maybe tomorrow morning during Wimbledon when I'm not drinking caffeine beer.
Gimlet, but by preventing ovulation, you prevent implantation.
No ovulation means no egg to get fertilized or implanted.
Which means implantation is prevented.
Gimlet, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.
Life does begin at conception, but we're talking undifferentiated cells at this point.
Life does begin at conception, but we're talking undifferentiated cells at this point.
Life doesn't begin at conception. All cells are alive.
What we should have is a culture that creates very confident young women who tell guys to fuck off if they don't want to wear a condom.
Problem solved, Dutch style.
he decision solely belongs to a woman in consultation with her health care provider.
i will never marry a gay man. i will never have an abortion. and yet it occurs to me that policies of the state mandating how people make their own decisions on these issues go to the core of my own freedom.
the late-term aspect is a made up issue
What it really is is a medical issue. Late term abortions are not done lightly by anyone. In nearly every recorded case, a fatal condition exists in the fetus, or the fetus is already dead in utero.
Exactly. And this whole issue is an attempt by some nutjob whacko christian deadbeat trailer park yahoos to oppress a woman's right to choose. I didn't hear these nutjob whacko christians screaming about giving the rights to a person to buy a rifle and blow the head off his pregnant wife. Why not restrict gun sales to pregnant couples? I didn't hear these nutjob christian whackos screaming 20 years ago for limits on rape in marriage. This is a carefully carved out piece of tripe, analogous to "what would you do if your sister was being raped by a black man, and you had a loaded revolver?" which I got asked by a SS board in 1969.
What it really is is a medical issue. Late term abortions are not done lightly by anyone. In nearly every recorded case, a fatal condition exists in the fetus, or the fetus is already dead in utero.
Sallyh, Grandmere Poissonniere | 07.05.08 - 8:23 pm | #
In US reality, you are absolutely right - but that's partially because of cultural and legal restrictions. There are societies where infanticide has been common.
We're not talking a fetus here, or even an embryo.
Indeed.
NTodd, Super Grand Poomba
From Wikipedia
In humans, it is called an embryo from the moment of fertilisation until the end of the 8th week, whereafter it is instead called a fetus.
once god manages to get that sperm in there, he wants a baby.
dirk gently, sociopathetic
It's amazing the holy status that little spermy acquires if he makes it any further than the gym sock under your little brother's bed.
The invocation of the beer religion reminds me of the pantheon's beauty. I like'm all.
Hops spring eternal. Malt on!
well, i'd love to stay and chat, but i'm off to spend a few quality minutes coloring in impressionist artists coloring books with my two non-abortions, before we brush teeth, read stories and sing, yes, "It Came Upon A Midnight Clear."
Undoubtedly I'll check back after good night kisses. Play nice.
Which means implantation is prevented.
NTodd, Super Grand Poomba
No egg means NOTHING to implant.
This is a carefully carved out piece of tripe, analogous to "what would you do if your sister was being raped by a black man, and you had a loaded revolver?" which I got asked by a SS board in 1969.
leibniz leibkins ♘☮
The answer they were looking for, I presume, was "I'd shoot her."
In humans, it is called an embryo from the moment of fertilisation until the end of the 8th week, whereafter it is instead called a fetus.
I'm not entirely convinced given we generally call it a zygote, and even the Wikipedia article explains that.
I didn't hear these nutjob whacko christians screaming about giving the rights to a person to buy a rifle and blow the head off his pregnant wife.
well, sure, if he thought she was looking at him funny.
Every sperm is sacred.
If I understand correctly, since my vasectomy, they've all been swimming around trying to mate with my kidneys.
No egg means NOTHING to implant.
Thus, implantation is prevented.
The lead sperm says to the others:
"GO BACK! It's only a blowjob!!!"
I guess we shouldn't call contraceptives "birth control" since there is no chance for birth, what with fertilization being prevented, let alone implantation...
When an egg and a sperm love eachother very much...
undifferentiated cells
Isn't this Gromit's specialty?
Me, I was thinking that ice cream in this beer would be very good, like an Orange Crush float......which leads me to Hope Float......mmmmmm, Harry Connick, Jr...........
In humans, it is called an embryo from the moment of fertilisation until the end of the 8th week, whereafter it is instead called a fetus.
Gimlet
Big whoop. When you are called upon to bear it, I will respect your choice of what to do with it. How's about we not legislate that respect and simply give it mutually?
suppose that 8 mo fetus is discovered to have no brain stem, or suffered from some traumatic injury, but could be kept alive by artificial means? do you want to legislate every possible medical contingency?
I don't see that being particularly different than the issue of when life support should be halted for critically ill and/or unresponsive patients.
You want it to be simple and black and white, but it never can be.
Nuances can not be escaped.
Beer has a religion? Huh.
camelot: 'Blogging from a bar' Here, are you crazy? There was a six-pack shop, but it is connected to a bar. No I cannot go to a grocery store, only a bar to get beer.
Heh!
The wonders of local alcohol ordinances.
In Tyler, TX. you used to only be able to get alcohol "by the drink," and then, only if you "joined the club," usually a small $2-5 fee for any bar you wanted to go in to drink.
That seems very foolish -- one would be more likely to drink and drive than if they simply allowed package sales.
.
"GO BACK! It's only a blowjob!!!"
gulp.
Carnegie:
Fertilization begins when a sperm penetrates an oocyte (an egg) and it ends with the creation of the zygote. The fertilization process takes about 24 hours.
A sperm can survive for up to 48 hours. It takes about ten hours to navigate the female productive track, moving up the vaginal canal, through the cervix, and into the fallopian tube where fertilization begins. Though 300 million sperm may enter the upper part of the vagina, only 1%, 3 million, enter the uterus. The next step is the penetration of the zona pellucida, a tough membrane surrounding the oocyte. Only one sperm needs to bind with the protein receptors in the zona pellucida to trigger an enzyme reaction allowing the zona to be pierced. Penetration of the zona pellucida takes about twenty minutes.
Within 11 hours following fertilization, the oocyte has extruded a polar body with its excess chromosomes. The fusion of the oocyte and sperm nuclei marks the creation of the zygote and the end of fertilization.
In Tyler, TX. you used to only be able to get alcohol "by the drink," and then, only if you "joined the club," usually a small $2-5 fee for any bar you wanted to go in to drink.
texas is weird that way.
Ahem. I am the mechanical contraption.
GWPDA, yclept Irate Historian
You may clean the pool, GWPDA. Mechanical? Contraption? Not hardly.
No egg means NOTHING to implant.
Gimlet | 07.05.08 - 8:32 pm | #
i don't see why this is such a distinction. prevention is keeping an egg from being fertilized and implanted. whether that's because the ovum isn't released, or because there is a latex barrier, or because the egg is prevented from being implanted, all seem like minor distinctions. unless the problem is that the egg might be fertilized before being implanted, at which time it is a baby. in which case god and nature are the two most heinous baby killers in history.
(actually, god and nature kill ALL babies. some of them happen to reach a ripe old age first)
Science doesn't help much with defining when life begins.
Sperm and unfertilized eggs are certainly alive, but cannot develop into humans.
Fertilized eggs can, but so can stem cells (at least they have the same potential). You lose stem cells whenever you bleed or give blood.
So even focusing on the science, there are no bright lines to draw.
I'm not entirely convinced given we generally call it a zygote, and even the Wikipedia article explains that.
NTodd, Super Grand Poomba
Zygote, Blastomere it's still in the embryonic stage.
Unless you can find a grain of insight in the minutia move back to the bigger picture.
Within 11 hours following fertilization, the oocyte has extruded a polar body with its excess chromosomes.
What about the polar bears!!!!!
Beer has a religion? Huh.
Moe Szyslak
Yes, my son. Do you think it is mere coincidence you were drawn to this thread? At this time?
Go. Drink and meditate. Then tell us all what the beer goddess says.
Unless you can find a grain of insight in the minutia move back to the bigger picture.
We were discussing the bigger picture: the shit is a glob of nothing and no man has a fucking right to tell a woman when she may terminate that parasitical colony.
GO BACK! It's only a blowjob!!!"
gulp.
sidhra
Within 11 hours following fertilization, the oocyte has extruded a polar body with its excess chromosomes.
Gross!!!
Within 11 hours following fertilization, the oocyte has extruded a polar body with its excess chromosomes. The fusion of the oocyte and sperm nuclei marks the creation of the zygote and the end of fertilization.
Your ability with porn has certainly gone down hill. Snow's war porn is more stimulating.
NTodd, thank you for the correction.
It's been a long time since I had an embryology course more recently than moi, help me out here
WTF is THIS conversation doing here?
The government should stay out of private family medical decisions.
Life is a unity from whenever it began -- one can argue that any break point is arbitrary (viz., but not having sex, I am preventing a birth from occurring)
Are all the not crazy people out having fun on a Saturday night? (makes sense to me ...)
You want it to be simple and black and white, but it never can be.
sure it can. why not?
Oedipus Rex was left on a mountainside at an attempt at infanticide. He lived, and look what happened. So there.
Go. Drink and meditate. Then tell us all what the beer goddess says.
racymind |
I'm not religiously inclined, but I've been following your advice for several hours. The beer goddess has huge tracts of land, and says I should buy a round for the house.
What it really is is a medical issue. Late term abortions are not done lightly by anyone. In nearly every recorded case, a fatal condition exists in the fetus, or the fetus is already dead in utero.
I appreciate that, and I agree that abortion is completely warranted under such circumstances.
But again, I just wonder how far the "it's my body" justification can or should be taken as a catch all for all possible cases.
So even focusing on the science, there are no bright lines to draw.
Gromit | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 8:38 pm | #
agreed.
Yo to the MAX
So even focusing on the science, there are no bright lines to draw.
Gromit | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 8:38 pm | #
bright lines:
woman decides || state decides
texas is weird that way.
pretzelattack
THAT way!!!???!
but not having sex, I am preventing a birth from occurring
OK, How many people here are not having sex tonight?
♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ Sallyh! ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥
I put up new kittehs, today.
.
for the 517th time, Congressional Dimocrats turn their swollen red baboon-asses toward the gaggle of nutroot-fringers looking on haplessly, helplessly....
thr horror!
the humanity!
the Platinum Comedy!
Vladimir Lenin, where art thou?
So even focusing on the science, there are no bright lines to draw.
Gromit | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 8:38 pm | #
bright lines:
woman decides || state decides
dirk gently, sociopathetic
Yes. Nice point.
unless the problem is that the egg might be fertilized before being implanted, at which time it is a baby.
That is the distinction if life begins at conception.
If the definition of life is when the fetus can survive without the mother, that's another definition.
It seems more bothersome late in pregnancy to abort than to prevent implantation early. Why?
OK, How many people here are not having sex tonight?
Gromit
The night is young. One way or another I will have sex with someone I love.
OK, How many people here are not having sex tonight?
I better go pour Mrs. Moe some wine.
racymind: The night is young. One way or another I will have sex with someone I love.
I heard that!
.
But again, I just wonder how far the "it's my body" justification can or should be taken as a catch all for all possible cases.
Richard | 07.05.08 - 8:41 pm | #
i can appreciate that - but i don't think it is worth the effort at this point in our social evolution to try and draw that line way, way out at the 8th or 8th month. that said, drawing the line earlier clearly begins to infringe on personal liberties. let's spend our energies on THAT end first, and when it's all tucked away if there cases arise whih seem inhuman in their brutality to innocent healthy babies we can address them.
OK, How many people here are not having sex tonight?
Depends on whether I still have gas or not...
OK, How many people here are not having sex tonight?
I already had sex this year.
If the definition of life is when the fetus can survive without the mother
That'd be age 12 or so.
The night is young. One way or another I will have sex with someone I love.
Now that's the kind of can-do attitude that makes America great!
(Dr Mrs Gromit is on call. Again. But I have hope for the morrow)
So even focusing on the science, there are no bright lines to draw.
Gromit
Any qualms about destroying the potential life of a stem cell?
Why is this different than a late term fetus?
OK, How many people here are not having sex tonight?
mrs g is in sacramento.
woman decides || state decides
dirk gently, sociopathetic
Yes. Nice point.
Gromit | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 8:43 pm | #
not a bright line derived from science, though. and that particular bright line treats the zygote and the 9 month old fetus the same.
It seems more bothersome late in pregnancy to abort than to prevent implantation early. Why?
Because it's more human-like.
Richard, the medical community has standards of care. I'm more concerned that those be complied with than that of worrying about taking 'it's my body' too far. And as far as I'm concerned, the religious community has no place in dictating medical practice.
"If the definition of life is when the fetus can survive without the mother
That'd be age 12 or so.
Moe Szyslak | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 8:45 pm | # "
So, you're not Jewish ...
That is the distinction if life begins at conception.
it doesn't. i'm glad i was able to clear that up.
Depends on whether I still have gas or not...
You have an internal combustion penis?
Any qualms about destroying the potential life of a stem cell?
Absolutely not. It's a totipotent cell. Its fate has not been determined.
It seems more bothersome late in pregnancy to abort than to prevent implantation early. Why?
Gimlet | 07.05.08 - 8:44 pm | #
because of our sense that at some point, the fetus is becoming more like a person.
Repukes don't believe in science anyway, so why can't all we Dems just get along?
How many people here are not having sex tonight?
Oh, and by the way, I will try my very best.
So, you're not Jewish ...
Prior Aelred
Sidhra did say 40.
Because it's more human-like.
NTodd, Super Grand Poomba
Yeah.
And what human characteristic most makes it human?
And as far as I'm concerned, the religious community has no place in dictating medical practice.
Sallyh, Grandmere Poissonniere | 07.05.08 - 8:47 pm | #
true dat.
You have an internal combustion penis?
Yes, but I'm going to be converting to a solar-powered electric penis if I can figured out the battery issue.
Its fate has not been determined.
Neither has yours, or mine.
Again, the government has no right to get involved in private medical decisions of families -- the church certainly has no right in this country to dictate government policy (Hello! Bill of Rights!)
If you don't think someone should have an abortion, don't have one - OK?
and that particular bright line treats the zygote and the 9 month old fetus the same.
pretzelattack | 07.05.08 - 8:46 pm | #
does it? huh. what do you know.
how many people here have been pregnant? carried to term? had early/late term miscarriages?
i think those are the people in each situation most capable of drawing the line. purely pragmatically, they will draw it correctly more often then the state, so if there has to be a single rule, it think that should be it.
an internal combustion penis would be too expensive, these days. and the solar powered penii run into legal issues. "but officer, i was just trying to recharge it"
Guys, this is not a matter for governments, or public morals committees. Just stop. It really is painful enough for people who wrestle with the medical and psychological burdens of an unwanted, or possibly fatal, pregnancy to deal with the real issues confronting them without the added burden of every opinion on the planet being thrust their way when it really should be a private decision made without the "kindness" of strangers.
And what human characteristic most makes it human?
That it kicks a lot. Like in the Quickening.
But if it's brain dead, then it ain't kicking so much.
Sidhra, you most eloquently stated my point
Depends on whether I still have gas or not...
NTodd, Super Grand Poomba
too far to walk?
does it? huh. what do you know.
yep. it treats each as being less than a full person. it is intuitively obvious that a zygote isn't a person. it isn't so obvious that an 8 or 9 month old fetus isn't.
Watertiger
Who the fuck are these girls on the link you put in your comment?
Oy!
Oy!
The difficulties "progressives" face:
As medical science drives viability further towards conception, how to make infanticide just another lifestyle choice?
Oy!
The difficulties "progressives" face!
Oy!
What sidhra said.
Yes, but I'm going to be converting to a solar-powered electric penis if I can figured out the battery issue.
Shine on, you crazy diamond.
And what human characteristic most makes it human?
Gimlet | 07.05.08 - 8:49 pm | #
and cuter than grownups (hence more precious?)
The IRS has been known to question your kind of receipts, my lady.
No, really! You want my DUNS number? I'm not-for-profit and proud of it!!!!
Well, shoot.
.
yes, brian, people who try to think about issues, in the short run, face more difficulties than people who just adopt a straight party line out of intellectual laziness.
yep. it treats each as being less than a full person. it is intuitively obvious that a zygote isn't a person. it isn't so obvious that an 8 or 9 month old fetus isn't.
pretzelattack | 07.05.08 - 8:53 pm | #
sorry, i should have been clearer:
YES, I KNOW IT DOES.
sometimes i am too subtle for my own good.
But if it's brain dead, then it ain't kicking so much.
NTodd, Super Grand Poomba
That's how I rationalize it.
I'm a quasi-vegetarian with the same rationale.
No qualms swatting a mosquito. No problem eating unfertilized eggs. No problem with shrimp. None are sentient by my standards.
Cats, dogs, chickens, cows, different story.
If life begins at conception, I'm OK with infanticide until they become sentient.
Socially it's unacceptable after birth and under about age two but that would also fit the definition.
Also - this is arguably the single cutest haircut I've had in quite a while - my haircutter iz Goddess!
But if it's brain dead, then it ain't kicking so much.
NTodd, Super Grand Poomba
toby kicks.
pretzelbrain:
the science of human fetus viability is hardly "party line", dude. Try "dynamic".
toby kicks.
Reflex.
Sentience as qualifier?
The last time I checked, for boys that was about 9....
The reality is that truly? You'd be a lot more comfortable leaving this kind of issue up to the woman whose uterus is involved.
Frank Rich: Why Wall-E makes more sense than anything on cable news
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/0...?
pagewanted=all
sometimes i am too subtle for my own good.
dirk gently, sociopathetic | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 8:57 pm | #
i don't think ignoring nuances is subtle.
Again, the government has no right to get involved in private medical decisions of families -- the church certainly has no right in this country to dictate government policy
Well, as far as that goes, Obama has been getting a very unjustified rap for his recent statement, as far as I'm concerned.
There's a vast gulf between making a choice after voluntarily discussing it with a doctor or a pastor (for women who are religiously inclined), which is what Obama talked about, and calling for legislated morality.
the science of human fetus viability is hardly "party line", dude. Try "dynamic".
Lubyanka | 07.05.08 - 8:58 pm | #
im talking about the question of when a human fetus should be treated as a person, if ever. the republican position seems to be, always. party line, dude.
if I can figured out the battery issue
China has it dicked but Big Oil keeps them from exporting.
-
Will to Power!
Messiah Hussein Obama, re Denver/Nuremburg Rally:
"Get me Leni Reifenstahl, dog..."
OMG
Has anyone listen to Watertiger's link?
"I paid someone to rape me once."
"Ben Bernanke and the pull out method"
and cuter than grownups (hence more precious?)
Got the evil eye for making a similar comment over a newborn once.
Maureen Dowd writes about how to find a man
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/0...ion/
06dowd.html
The reality is that truly? You'd be a lot more comfortable leaving this kind of issue up to the woman whose uterus is involved.
GWPDA, yclept Irate Historian
But I'm sure she would some way of looking at the "problem" to help with her decision not just "It's illegal".
You'd be a lot more comfortable leaving this kind of issue up to the woman whose uterus is involved.
Been sayin'.
Also - this is arguably the single cutest haircut I've had in quite a while - my haircutter iz Goddess!
Have the pool boy take a picture!
NTodd, if you guys want to hot tub when you get here, bring suits. We'll have no naked tubbing.
I'm sad to report that eating half a can of Pringles for dinner results in one heck of a stomachache.
Meh. Who could have predicted...?
the republican position seems to be, always. party line, dude.
Only until they're born. Then, fuck 'em.
Maureen Dowd writes about how to find a man
Molly will have fun with that one.
♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ Snugglebunny! ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥
Where ya been?!
Meh. Who could have predicted...?
Olestra?
.
Richard - I wasn't talking about Obama -- I have been to busy to pay attention to that crap -- I am voting for the Democrat in November -- I don't need to pay attention to the bullshit anyway.
Obama is OK - I consider him to be slightly more conservative tan Dwight D. Eisenhower - which makes him more liberal than many of the Democrats in Congress -- nothing new there, except all that sort of Democrat used to be from the South (& most of that sort are Republicans now)
Maureen Dowd writes about how to find a man
So much for the old dictum about sticking to writing about what you know.
But I'm sure she would some way of looking at the "problem" to help with her decision not just "It's illegal".
No, darling. Unwanted help is really unwanted help. This issue is something that we honestly do know all we need to know about. It isn't anything to do with buying tyres, determining the correct mortgage rate or establishing ratios. This one, we know how to do, all by ourselves.
.
A state can restrict or proscribe abortion as it sees fit during the third trimester (when the fetus is viable) "except where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother."
That's pretty much where the law stands, whether we like it or not. If the right to abortion is going to be made more expansive, it's going to have to happen in state legislatures, or by a constitutional amendment.
i don't think ignoring nuances is subtle.
pretzelattack | 07.05.08 - 9:00 pm | #
*sigh*
i'll let everyone else have the last word after this.
all i meant was that i KNOW my line treated zygotes and 9 month old fetuses the same. that was intentional. my belief is that from the standpoint of the acceptable level of state interference with as private a matter as whether to carry and deliver a baby, that is the correct line to draw. the nuances, as i've said, are more properly addressed by the person in whose body the new person is growing.
GWPDA This one, we know how to do, all by ourselves.
Extreme eloquence!
.
JP
Are you drinking 'regular' beer? Chicken!
NTodd, if you guys want to hot tub when you get here, bring suits. We'll have no naked tubbing.
Not a good idea with young ones around.
...is yet another stain on the gutless and seemingly powerless Democratic majority in both houses of Congress
One thing is clear, many democrats are just as unable to objectively look at their own candidates as republicans. You can forget about more and better democrats.
♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ Snugglebunny! ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥
Where ya been?!
Oh out and around. Enjoying the summer and the pooches. Upstate NY has had simply glorious weather since late Spring this year. I've never seen so many lovely days in a row, over and over.
Much too nice to be indoors, kind of weather!
camelot: Are you drinking 'regular' beer? Chicken!
The only "trick" alcohol I drink is blended my me, myself, without a studio audience.
.
some vegetarians will only eat fertile eggs. otherwise, they say, they are eating a chicken.
{{{Jeffraham!!!}}}
About to head over to visit the boys
That's pretty much where the law stands, whether we like it or not. If the right to abortion is going to be made more expansive...
Expansive?!!!
Wow, this from you is disappointing.
GWPDA, yclept Irate Historian | 07.05.08 - 9:06 pm
Yep.
Not a good idea with young ones around.
Gromit | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 9:07 pm | #
depends on how young.
i remeber going to a fourth of july party at a pond owned by some naturist friends. clothing optional, and pretty much those b/t 12 and 17 chose to wear it.
Sallyh: About to head over to visit the boys
No hurries; they'll be here all week!
.
the nuances, as i've said, are more properly addressed by the person in whose body the new person is growing.
dirk gently, sociopathetic | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 9:07 pm | #
i dont have any problem with that in the first couple of trimesters. the issue starts getting sticky the closer the fetus gets to being a person. we aren't going to be able to define person in a way that satisfies everybody-birth is a clear cut way of drawing a line, and it might be the best solution.
I thank you god for most this amazing day: for the leaping greenly spirits of trees and a blue true dream of sky: and for everything
which is natural which is infinite which is yes.
-e.e. cummings
oh no, not me, i never lost control...
the man who sold the world.
i must have died, a long, long time ago...
Jeffraham, try the veal. And don't forget to tip your server!
Howz da boyz, JP?
"Get me Leni Reifenstahl, dog..."
Lubyanka | 07.05.08 - 9:02 pm | #
Can't do it, Republicans have had her on retainer for 40 years. And the republican voters rise up and cheer as their "leaders" shit and piss all over them, in the name of corporate power and CEO fortunes, while the lowly voters get nothing but shit, piss and lies.
Also - this is arguably the single cutest haircut I've had in quite a while - my haircutter iz Goddess!
GWPDA, yclept Irate Historian
Ladies and gentlemen: Would a mechanical contrivance care about a hair cut? Of course not.
I rest my case.
(I'll bet you look terrific, GWPDA.)
Expansive?!!!
Wow, this from you is disappointing.
pie
You'll have to explain why. If there's a problem with the word we can think of a different one.
The point is that Roe v Wade says that states have the right to regulate or proscribe abortion during the third trimester, so long as exceptions are available to protect the life or health of the mother.
That's the law, and those of us who might prefer that the state have no say at all in these matters will need to have recourse to the state legislatures or try to pass a constitutional amendment.
What's the problem here?
Sallyh: Jeffraham, try the veal. And don't forget to tip your server!
I'm a good tipper.
... in most cases, anyway.
.
i dont have any problem with that in the first couple of trimesters
You don't get to decide.
Let's keep muddying the issue though, while Rome burns.
Steve, sorry if I misunderstood you, but this is another red flag in this campaign.
In March, Mr. Payne created downforeveryoneorjustme.com, as in, “Down for everyone, or just me?” It lets visitors type in a Web address and see whether a site is generally inaccessible or whether the problem is with their own connection.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/0...ml?
ref=business
'Just you.'
-
the closer the fetus gets to being a person. we aren't going to be able to define person in a way that satisfies everybody
Who is this 'we?' As long as the baby/fetus/gift from god/whatever you would like to call it is in a woman's body, where does 'we' come from?
You don't get to decide.
and i never said i did, pie.
What's the problem here?
None. I responded.
It's Obama that has my back up, however.
As usual.
sidhra: Howz da boyz, JP?
Finer'n frog hair!
I had a nap, earlier, and left the fan off so that Curly could get in the bed (he's very phobic of any moving air; I wonder if he was in a tornado as a kitten). He decided not to hang out for naptime, but L.E. was spooned up under my chin when I woke up. So, I laid there and rubbed belly for a while before I got up.
.
[biting tongue]
hi pie! read any good books lately?
Jeffraham, the boys look to be enjoying life tremendously. And why shouldn't they?
NTodd, if you guys want to hot tub when you get here, bring suits. We'll have no naked tubbing.
ErinPDX | 07.05.08 - 9:03 pm | #
Tuxes after 6.
If someone is still setting off illegal fireworks on the 5th of july, it is permissible for me to shoot them?
If someone is still setting off illegal fireworks on the 5th of july, it is permissible for me to shoot them?
Buckeye. Dealer of Rare Coins | 07.05.08 - 9:21 pm | #
do you live in florida? did they look at you funny?
The question still remains: where do working class republican voters store their brains when they go to their polling sites? Is there a central bank, or do they just leave them in their sock drawers?
Who is this 'we?' As long as the baby/fetus/gift from god/whatever you would like to call it is in a woman's body, where does 'we' come from?
camelot | 07.05.08 - 9:18 pm | #
anyone trying to define what makes a person a person. parents aren't allowed to abuse their children, or neglect them. if we call a fetus, at some point, a person, then it would have rights of its own
Canada has no law against abortion. The only country, I understand.
If someone is still setting off illegal fireworks on the 5th of july, it is permissible for me to shoot them?
Buckeye. Dealer of Rare Coins | 07.05.08 - 9:21 pm | #
Only with a silencer.
dirk!
I'm reading mysteries still.
How are you? New play?
or do they just leave them in their sock drawers?
you don't want to know what's in the sock drawer. trust me.
Sallyh: Jeffraham, the boys look to be enjoying life tremendously. And why shouldn't they?
It's my goal in life to keep 'em happy and healthy.
Btw, we did a blooper reel with the rescue kittens...
.
Steve, sorry if I misunderstood you, but this is another red flag in this campaign.
pie
That's actually how all this got started.
Some people were maintaining that Obama was passing judgment on "who is entitled" to have an abortion.
In fact he was stating his understanding of the current state of the law... he is in fact a co-sponsor of the "Freedom of Choice Act" which, among other things, would codify a mental health exception to late-term abortion prohibitions.
GeorgeM |
Gorgeous!
Tropical break????
I wouldn't have to think twice. Incredible pictures.
When I think of this issue I know that the fetus does not became a human life only after birth. At a minimum, I know that it is a life 1 second before birth. I also don't think that the just fertilized egg is a life. But that means that life, in my thinking, then must begin at some point during the moment of fertilization and delivery. So I think its best to err on the side of life.
Still, the best way to deal with this in my opinion is not through the criminalization of abortion but through sex ed and providing alternatives to abortion. And not through shaming single women or teenagers when they get pregnant while telling them that they must carry the baby to term. That's so cruel.
If someone is still setting off illegal fireworks on the 5th of july, it is permissible for me to shoot them?
You have my permission. I have to crate the dogs at 8:30PM for this whole g-d week thanks to the local yahoos.
if we call a fetus, at some point, a person, then it would have rights of its own
But we don't and it's just as well, or there would all kinds of restrictions on the mother's behavior so the state could have its next cannon fodder client.
How are you? New play?
pie | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 9:23 pm | #
dracula. i'm playing renfield.
i have one scene with mina harker, after the first rehearsal i overheard her tell another actor "i felt like clarisse up there"
so it's going well.
Still, the best way to deal with this in my opinion is not through the criminalization of abortion but through sex ed and providing alternatives to abortion. And not through shaming single women or teenagers when they get pregnant while telling them that they must carry the baby to term. That's so cruel.
Maggie | 07.05.08 - 9:23 pm | #
definitely.
In fact he was stating his understanding of the current state of the law...
It's too effing bad he doesn't understand FISA as well.
Snugglebunny: Much too nice to be indoors, kind of weather!
Lucky you! We're having T3h Hawt, as usual. It's not as bad as last year, though. And I love the heat.
.
i don't think people should discuss religion or politics on blogs.
i don't think people should discuss religion or politics on blogs.
charley | 07.05.08 - 9:26 pm | #
That's why we're all involved in medical ethics tonight, to avoid religion and politics.
If someone is still setting off illegal fireworks on the 5th of july, it is permissible for me to shoot them?
Buckeye. Dealer of Rare Coins | 07.05.08 - 9:21 pm | #
Only with a silencer.
ronjazz | 07.05.08 - 9:22 pm | #
I figured if I timed it correctly, they'd never hear the shot over the fireworks, even without a silencer.
You have my permission. I have to crate the dogs at 8:30PM for this whole g-d week thanks to the local yahoos.
Snugglebunny | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 9:23 pm
Spike, my indoor/outdoor cat, has spent most of the last 3 days inside, because of the fireworks/noisemakers etc. Mostly by his choice, interestingly (I'll domesticate him yet).
Some people were maintaining that Obama was passing judgment on "who is entitled" to have an abortion.
In fact he was stating his understanding of the current state of the law... he is in fact a co-sponsor of the "Freedom of Choice Act" which, among other things, would codify a mental health exception to late-term abortion prohibitions.
I've been rather dismayed by how easily people around here have been taken in by GOP talking points with regards to Obama.
Still, the best way to deal with this in my opinion is not through the criminalization of abortion but through sex ed and providing alternatives to abortion
Oh, you mean, "safe, legal, and rare?"
I remember when Hillary said that. The peanut gallery went wild.
You fools.
charley: i don't think people should discuss religion or politics on blogs.
Greased and naked, each with only a 6" single-edged knife, both within a 20' circle.
.
i don't think people should discuss religion or politics on blogs.
That leaves sex and money, right?
I've been rather dismayed by how easily people around here have been taken in by GOP talking points with regards to Obama.
Richard | 07.05.08 - 9:27 pm | #
Exactemento.
It's too effing bad he doesn't understand FISA as well.
While the FISA law is a bad bill and Obama should not support it, the immunity for the communication companies is only for civil action, not criminal.
The companies can be charged with crimes if crimes were committed.
pie I'm currently reading "With No One As Witness".
I like those Lynley mysteries.
Pie--Why am I a fool for wanting to make sure alternatives to abortion are available? I really don't know why that would be an upsetting position to anyone. That is very consistent with choice--the most choice some would say. i really don't understand your dismissive anger.
billy b: The companies can be charged with crimes if crimes were committed.
Well, color me stupid, but a smart Dem, in these environs, would simply withhold guv contracts from those telecomms who bent-over-stupid for BushCo. They'll talk.
.
Tuxes after 6.
Only if we can remove yours.
It's too effing bad he doesn't understand FISA as well.
pie
Yes it is.
That's why Dodd was my second choice, after Edwards. Not Obama or Clinton.
While the FISA law is a bad bill
No, we have a FISA law already.
This is an amendment.
I like those Lynley mysteries.
I've not read any. Thanks for the recommndation!
my daughter's dog has recently aquired the delusion that he is a cat. he likes to sleep on the back of the sofa. worse, he is now doing his favorite new trick, which is perching on the back of the sofa, pretending to be a sleep, an a position where his paws just reach my shoulders.
oops, he read this over my shoulder - apparently i've embarrased him, he jumped down and is now curled up at the other end of the sofa. i think he said 'meow.'
SteveLG: That's why Dodd was my second choice, after Edwards. Not Obama or Clinton.
Me too. I sent Dodd turkee when his threat of filibuster killed this bullshit the first go-round.
.
But we don't and it's just as well, or there would all kinds of restrictions on the mother's behavior so the state could have its next cannon fodder client.
ronjazz | 07.05.08 - 9:24 pm | #
but we do, sometimes. for instance, i think in some states, if a pregnant woman is murdered, it is treated as a double homicide. roe vs wade isnt perfect, but it does try to address the problem of a whether we should treat a zygote, and an 8 month old fetus, the same.
in case it isn't clear, i don't want to overturn roe vs. wade, or increase any legal restrictions on abortion.
The companies can be charged with crimes if crimes were committed.
Yeah, that's true. However, discovery in the civil cases would have revealed criminal behavior. The civil cases were essential to getting the facts out in court.
That's why the administration is so goddamned scared of the civil actions underway. They do not want what they've done exposed.
Ha, ha, the Chinks totally fucked you over on that one. You know the Chinese are drilling for oil off of Cuba. Meanwhile they did something completely else. Me, I'm too knee deep in Chinese pussy to give a shit.
I'm sorry pretzelattack I just can't get there.
I suppose I have been controlled all of my life and am sick of others making decisions for me.
I do wonder though, if women replaced all the men in government, and gave their spots they now hold to men, what the law would be.
Sorry to simplify, but it really isn't that complex for me.
The companies can be charged with crimes if crimes were committed.
billy b | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 9:28 pm | #
pfffffft. who's going to file charges?
My favorites are by Val McDermid.
Check those out pie. She's really good.
i think he said 'meow.'
Purina Cat Chow?
Why am I a fool for wanting to make sure alternatives to abortion are available?
Safe. Legal. Rare.
Birth control works wonders.
sittenpretty convinced me Purina Kitten Chow is the best Purina food for ANY cat.
So, that's what the boys eat, now.
.
Exactemento.
The hysteria about his recent Iraq war policy statements has been particularly disappointing. People reading exactly what John McCain wants them to read into them. Moronic.
pfffffft. who's going to file charges?
dirk gently, sociopathetic
Eliot Spitzer's comeback tour.
Purina Cat Chow?
billy b | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 9:32 pm | #
i think he's been reading my texts on method acting. i found meisner on the floor opened to chapter 4. it's a little dogeared.
Comments dropping in to the thread like orphans. Where do they come from?
Joe Galloway does not spout Republic talking points.
-
Tropical break????
I wouldn't have to think twice. Incredible pictures.
I'm using the photography category in Stumbleupon (the Firefox extension) to find photo sites. Ah, if only I were that talented...
That's why the administration is so goddamned scared of the civil actions underway. They do not want what they've done exposed.
montag
Exactly,
Fine. Don't penalize the telecoms. But let's find out who was spied on and why. And who authorized it.
It would make Watergate look like a walk in the park.
Comments dropping in to the thread like orphans. Where do they come from?
The stork is bringing them in.
Comments dropping in to the thread like orphans. Where do they come from?
From the god of confusion, Haloscan.
pfffffft. who's going to file charges?
pffft, your mama.
John Dean has a column at Findlaw about that. From the post:
Because this legislation addresses only civil liability, Senator Obama has a unique opportunity to show that his leadership as President would, in fact, bring a change to Washington. Indeed, he can both support the amendments now pending (for the reasons he stated), and make clear that as President he will request that his attorney general determine if criminal actions should be taken for the blatant violations of the criminal law. Actually, he has already said this, but in a larger context.
Since Obama Has Already Declared that He Will Hold the Bush Administration Officials Responsible for their Crimes, He Can Now Have It Both Ways: Support the FISA Amendments and Hold Miscreants Responsible
The hysteria about his recent Iraq war policy statements has been particularly disappointing.
that one i'll give you.
fisa is pretty damn disappointing.
the rest is just where he's always been. no shock, no awe. he's fairly progressive economically, fairly conservative socially. as he was all along.
Comments dropping in to the thread like orphans. Where do they come from?
Shared Humanity
They are precious Snowflake Comments.
That leaves sex and money, right?
camelot
yeah, that's the ticket.
which, actually, when you come to think of it, is religion and politics.
carry on.
I guess I miss you point, Pie. All I know is that its unfortunate if a girl or woman feels like abortion or a shameful pregnancy are her only two options; or if she aborts because she worries about the financial burdens. No woman should have to face those as her only choices.
Comments dropping in to the thread like orphans. Where do they come from?The aethernet??
My favorites are by Val McDermid.
Got that one, too.
How are you, btw? The job?
Seriously, fucking with BushCo/ChenCo, at this point, just teaches you motherfuckers not to fuck your mother.
God somebody ANYBODY find Dowd a man. Please!
Senator Obama has a unique opportunity to show that his leadership
obama had a unique opportunity to show his leadership by putting a stop to this bad and unnecessary bill. an opportunity means nothing until it is taken.
pie: Fine. Don't penalize the telecoms. But let's find out who was spied on and why. And who authorized it.
I say the easy way to do that is financially.
"Fine. You have your immunity, and don't wanna rat the fuckers out. You'll get your next government contract after, oh, 16 years or so of Democratic administrations."
.
My boyfriend heard Laura Nyro for the first time last night. He's a convert. And that makes me happy!
Watertiger, oh watertiger, are you still here?
evening all.
has Obama dropped out yet?
Canada has no law against abortion. The only country, I understand.
True. But there remain some seriously weird divorce laws on the books (in the centre provinces at least) along with the requirement that everyone must have HBC blankies.
And back bacon.
And a horsie. And wheat.
fisa is pretty damn disappointing.
And a totally unnecessary self-inflicted wound. Completely wrong-headed. He could correct himself while there's still time, and make the point that unlike the current administration and the Republican nominee he can recognize a mistake when he's made one and set it right.
But he ain't gonna do that, more's the pity.
All I know is that its unfortunate if a girl or woman feels like abortion or a shameful pregnancy are her only two options;
What other options are there, besides not getting pregnant in the first place, thanks to sex education and birth control practiced by both partners?
Son leaves in less than two weeks to spend a year on Airuk islet on the Ailinglaplap atoll teaching. Population on the entire atoll is about 1800. He is learning Marshallese and teaching ESL classes at a Korean organization in the North Suburbs to get ready.
Kinda wish I was young again.
http://www.oceandots.com/
pacific...ilinglaplap.htm
has Obama dropped out yet?
mrs. ibrahim al-jafaari | 07.05.08 - 9:41 pm | #
Apparently he has declined the democratic nomination to run as the Right-to-Life candidate. At least that's what I've heard here.
"Fine. You have your immunity, and don't wanna rat the fuckers out. You'll get your next government contract after, oh, 16 years or so of Democratic administrations."
i hope they use the power of witholding government contracts to slap the telecoms, oil companies, halliburton etc etc etc.
Indeed, he can both support the amendments now pending (for the reasons he stated)
which reasons? oh, yeah. it's better than the bill he voted against before. apparently that bill allowed the wholesale slaughter of polarbear cubs for sport, but the new one doesn't. what exactly is the compromise?
and the other reason is that this bill clearly states that the fisa law is actually the law, which in fact it always was. so from here on in, we mean it, by god. and there's no way they'd ever ignore THIS one.
abortion or a shameful pregnancy are her only two options;
Pregnancy as shameful or something that would cause financial ruin, should have that same tossed on the moralists head, as THEIR fault and responsibility.
THEY are why pregnancy is considered shameful, and why pregnant women and their resulting children are not provided for. It should never be a question of a pregnant woman or her children being able to get food or medical care. Unless...
The moralists don't really believe that human life is sacred.
Apparently he has declined the democratic nomination to run as the Right-to-Life candidate. At least that's what I've heard here.
rootless-e | 07.05.08 - 9:43 pm | #
You are sadly mistaken.
pie I'm trying to work around it but it doesn't really look promising.
I might last till the end of the year but I doubt it.
How are you?
You know you're gravatar disappeared.
But he ain't gonna do that, more's the pity.
Indeed.
Scary, actually.
More and better democrats.
What a joke.
Good night.
My boyfriend heard Laura Nyro for the first time last night. He's a convert. And that makes me happy!
Maggie
That was a really great clip Echidne posted last night.
I emailed the link to my daughters, who know Nyro well, but I doubt if they've seen a recording of a live performance.
There are organizations that help single women who feel they cannot financially take care of their child to avoid either an abortion or adoption but raise the child with financial assistance. There is also a need not to make women who get pregnant not feel like they have done something wrong--but also making sure that they have access to birth control beforehand to limit the unwanted pregnancies.
Shared Humanity: Kinda wish I was young again.
You should be very proud, as I'm sure you are!
.
has Obama dropped out yet?
mrs. ibrahim al-jafaari
Apparently he has declined the democratic nomination to run as the Right-to-Life candidate. At least that's what I've heard here.
rootless-e
heh.
You are sadly mistaken.
ronjazz | 07.05.08 - 9:44 pm | #
I was being sarcastic. Sorry.
"Fine. You have your immunity, and don't wanna rat the fuckers out. You'll get your next government contract after, oh, 16 years or so of Democratic administrations."
ok, but don't come looking for a job here when your term is up!
What a joke.
Good night.
Now that wasn't nice.
Maggie, tell that one to my daughter. She's trying, and it ain't happening.
SteveLG--What was coincidental was that I didn't see that clip until this morning. It was a great clip. I love her later, live recordings from NY. I remember listening to her when I was little--my aunt who had basically runaway from the small Nebraskan town at 17 had her albums and introduced me to her.
Since when is pie nice? She comes in here, drops a few nasties and splits. Especially when she's challenged she's gone baby gone.
dirk gently: ok, but don't come looking for a job here when your term is up!
We're talking about a handful of (admittedly humongeous) companies.
.
Most of what is reported on Obama is filtered thriugh the RNC:
Says Conant: ""There appears to be no issue that Barack Obama is not willing to reverse himself on for the sake of political expedience."
The identical quote appears in both pieces. If the pieces weren't bylined I think I might have assumed one was a rewrite of the other. But they actually appear to be two completely original articles, just mouthing the identical McCain/RNC line.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/
danny - Now which troll was it who always, ALWAYS attacked pie?
Once more, for those what missed it (and give a shit), LarryElvis is not happy with Dad.
.
i watch law and order. immunity deals are generally offered in return for testimony - that's why they are called "deals"
blanket immunity with nothing in return is stupid. there, i said it. stupid.
And a totally unnecessary self-inflicted wound. Completely wrong-headed.
I have no idea what possible advantage Dems think they'll gain by supporting that FISA shit.
If they had left it dead after it was blocked months ago, I think it would be extremely doubtful that it would have come up again as a campaign issue.
They're making it an issue, not the GOPers. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.
I think I'm going to watch 'Che;' I'll be back when I'm drunk. I hope that's okay, it is a holiday weekend and all.
Kinda wish I was young again.
you and me both.
my hat's off to your son, btw.
Fine. Don't penalize the telecoms. But let's find out who was spied on and why. And who authorized it.
Unfortunately, that's not the least of it. The rest of bill, the modification to FISA, is a horror. It fails to address many of the things going on now, and isn't nearly tight enough to prevent abuses. There are loopholes in it big enough to steer an ocean liner through.
The bill, altogether, is quite bad, and the traditional excuse, "it's the best bill we could get," just doesn't fly.
Immunization isn't all that's bad about it. And, I'm tempted to say that the bill will be used later to say that criminal charges won't be possible.
Beyond that, Dems have a history on this sort of thing--Clinton shut down several investigations related to Iran-Contra when he first came to office, in an attempt to win over the `pugs. Fat lot of good that did.
The current administration is just the latest and worst iteration of a party that will stop at nothing to obtain both one-party rule and a one-branch government. They more closely resemble organized crime than a political entity, and the only way to stop them is to expose them and put them in jail.
The first step is exposure. If the Dems can't see that as essential, how likely are they to begin that process in 2009?
Oh baby I just saw the devil and he's smiling at me
I heard my bones cry devil why's it got to be?
You're starving today
But who cares anyway
Baby it feels like I'm dying now.
I think I'm going to watch 'Che;' I'll be back when I'm drunk. I hope that's okay, it is a holiday weekend and all.
camelot | 07.05.08 - 9:50 pm | #
you'd better be naked, as well.
blanket immunity with nothing in return is stupid. there, i said it. stupid.
dirk gently, sociopathetic | Homepage | 07.05.08 - 9:49 pm | #
yeah. like taking impeachment off the table, unilaterally.
Since when is pie nice? She comes in here, drops a few nasties and splits. Especially when she's challenged she's gone baby gone.
pie is an old dear friend.
pie, to paraphrase tena, is fierce. She doesn't take things lying down.
I am saddened by our conflict.
This is priceless: For most of this country's history, the 4th amendment did not apply to blacks, asians or women. The current congress is simply making sure it doesn't apply to everyone else, thereby ensuring equality for all.
leibniz leibkins ♘☮ | 07.05.08 - 6:15 pm | #
yo.
We're talking about a handful of (admittedly humongeous) companies.
i say again, pfffffft.
this sort of thing should not be left up to back room wheedling. if the fisa amendment INCLUDED denial of govt contracts in exchange for immunity, that would be one thing. but to just give it to them and hope that the people in charge of moving billions of budget dollars around would hold their feet to the fire seems ... naive.
So has anyone read Absalom, Absalom! I agreed to read it since it is one of my boyfriend's favorite novels. I plodded through chapter one, felt stupid, and am thinking that I will have to go get the Cliffs Notes and cheat, like I did in high school. As I sat down to read more of it today, I thought how much better it would be if my boyfriend were muscular and stupid instead--I always fall for the wrong guys.
We are at about 800 comments now. Can we abort this thread?
you don't even know her. she's probably a flat-out racist. your good friend, pie.
I realise that, other than trundling around town, I have not been outside for more than a minute today.
Good!
We are at about 800 comments now. Can we abort this thread?
You crazy.
sheeties
pie's a dear friend of mine. She's very intelligent and very no-nonsense. She doesn't suffer fools gladly, and she's skeptical of many because she's been attacked in the past.
I understand her dismay with the current situation, both politically and on this blog.
you don't even know her. she's probably a flat-out racist. your good friend, pie.
danny | 07.05.08 - 9:53 pm | #
you don't know her either. you're probably a flat-out asshole.
I was impeached and recommend it highly for what ails ya. Less filling and great taste.
This is a third trimester thread and is subject to rules and regulations set by angry male web owners.
S
H
E
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danny -
I know pie very well.
You - I wouldn't throw out the back of the bus. Go away. I know who -you- are and I don't like you. Nobody likes you. You're scum. Go away.
""There appears to be no issue that Barack Obama is not willing to reverse himself on for the sake of political expedience."
both of the fishwraps I read today (one before I got sunburned, one when I got home) had this A1.
jennifer mcLoven for the AP and her "Barack: Flip Flopper, or even worse Flip Flopper than Kerry" was nice.
better still was the wingnut Op-Ed from the St. Pete wingnut editor explaining why Kerry deserved to be SwiftBoated, whereas the evil maniac General Clark should be ashamed for his vile slanders.
oy vey!
yeah. like taking impeachment off the table, unilaterally.
pretzelattack | 07.05.08 - 9:51 pm | #
just so.
if obama is such a good negotiator, he really should know enough to start from a stronger position. and there is NO FUCKING REASON TO SUPPORT THIS BILL! it doesn't do anything good!
if it does, someone PLEASE tell me what it is. and "it doesn't also do this even worse thing" isn't good enough.
This is a third trimester thread and is subject to rules and regulations set by angry male web owners.
Shared Humanity | 07.05.08 - 9:55 pm | #
naw its a senile thread, so it falls under euthanasia.
you don't even know her. she's probably a flat-out racist. your good friend, pie.
danny
Well, I know her, live and in the flesh.
I don't know you. Based on your logic, what am I to deduce about you?
dirk gently: this sort of thing should not be left up to back room wheedling. if the fisa amendment INCLUDED denial of govt contracts in exchange for immunity, that would be one thing. but to just give it to them and hope that the people in charge of moving billions of budget dollars around would hold their feet to the fire seems ... naive.
I absolutely agree!
However, in my most optimistic moments, I can see that this is the way to gain certain cooperation from those who cannot be compelled.
.
Who the fuck are you danny?
pie is an old timer here and a nice lady.
I've gotten into it with her too but we always manage to shake hands and go to our corners in the end.
I'm still here, and I thought how much better it would be if my boyfriend were muscular and stupid instead--I always fall for the wrong guys. No, no, no. I've done this-big mistake. Go back and read the book again. Thank God your boyfriend has a brain.
you don't even know her. she's probably a flat-out racist. your good friend, pie.
jack - I've posted here for the better part of 6 years. pie has also.
As to 'knowing' folks, at Eschacon, peeps that I'd conversed with via the web were exactly as I pictured.
Strike that, when I met that folks that were at the 'Con, they were cooler than I had imagined.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it, bumps.
Oh, camelot, believe me-- I'm so glad my boyfriend has a brain. And I think he's pretty damn sexy in his own kind of awkward way. I just wish he liked books that weren't so difficult. i think i'll put my foot down if he thinks I should read Joyce. Not until he reads all of Jane Austen and Edith Wharton! (He would, actually, if he hasn't already.)
Who the fuck are you danny?
Odds are good that he is Allen Butler, the fat aggie transvestite troll.
So has anyone read Absalom, Absalom! I agreed to read it since it is one of my boyfriend's favorite novels. I plodded through chapter one, felt stupid, and am thinking that I will have to go get the Cliffs Notes and cheat, like I did in high school. As I sat down to read more of it today, I thought how much better it would be if my boyfriend were muscular and stupid instead--I always fall for the wrong guys.
Yes, I've read it. Think of it as a kind of "Rashomon" story, where many different characters have differing views of the same circumstances and happenings. Much more broadly, those circumstances and happenings serve as a metaphor for the decay of the Old South.
The most problematic aspects of the novel to most people is that the evolution of the story line is non-linear, and that much of the essential story comes as stream-of-consciousness narration. There's a lot to remember as the story progresses and to keep in focus. In a way, this is Faulkner's means of forcing the reader to puzzle through the known facts as if the reader were one of his characters puzzling through his own history.
O'Bummer--WANKER OF THE MILLENIUM
Everybody who stood up for this flop-eared, purple-assed baboon, i must ask: How do ya like the flavor of your slice of the pie now?
Oh that's right, i forgot, he's just doing it to get "elected." My stupid.
Hope Hillary votes against...but probably can't go against the leader of out party.
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