I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Maybe they can live with his mom.
YEHAWW!
And speaking of socially incapacitated people:
Jackson Jury May Be Deciding Who's Weirder
SANTA MARIA, Calif. - The jury deliberating the fate of Michael Jackson may have to decide who's weirder: Jackson or the mother of his accuser.
(snip)
That is absolutely beyond obscene. There is no excuse for a 'civilized' country to treat its veterans this way....None!!
Let's start calling them "Bush's boys".
Oh yeah...
Fuck Bush.
After we Impeach His Ass...
This is a Disgrace.
And it's not the first time this has been reported.
They just don't give a shit apparently.
That is absolutely beyond obscene. There is no excuse for a 'civilized' country to
treat its veterans this way....None!!
flory | Email | Homepage | 06.04.05 - 6:10 pm | #
Since when are we civilized?
That is absolutely beyond obscene. There is no excuse for a 'civilized' country to treat its veterans this way....None!!
fiory
Would that be the same civilized country that that does such a bang up job caring for its poor and its sick? ... or the same one that practices capital punishment?...or the same one that starts wars for the hell of it? ... or maybe you meant the one whose government is dedicated to enriching the rich at the expense of the lower riff-raff?
The same principle (or lack thereof) of the pro-life asshats..protect the fetus at all costs,yet once they are out of the sacred womb, who gives a shit, cut programs for kids, etc etc. Once these men and women have served their purpose for Dear Leader, toss them aside...it truly is a disgrace
Kuntsler is about to be on AAR's "Ring of Fire."
this type of appeal is always a moral dilemma for me. i hate to see the troops or veterans wanting, yet filling in with charity just lets the government off the hook and puts a band-aid over their disasterous decisions.
Are there no prisons?
This seems pretty much like SOP, at least since Viet Nam.
Whatever happened to the G.I. Bill BTW?
.
But the neo-cons are the same people who will rant about how Viet Nam vets were treated even though they were so focused on themselves they didn't go to Vietnam OR protest.
Well, I found out what it would be like to go without eschaton. My local server has been down since wednesday and the site's blocked at work now. It's not good. But I'm finally back on, so maybe the twitching will stop now.
About the vets: what did anyone expect? A civilized country wouldn't have sent them in the first place.
Yes, the stories about homeless Iraq vets have been coming out for a while; I've blogged on them a number of time the past few months or so...
And interestingly, my mention of this travesty, along with the new organization Iraq Vets Against the War, which advocates for vets in this regard among others, was one of the several times I've been targetted by the Freepers who so love this country...
Strange, that.
"...veterans from the war on terror..."
Puh-leeze.
Posted this on old thread without seeing new thread up -
If you want to read something that makes your blood boil, go read Assrocket's response to Sid Blumenthal:
But would the Constitutional option have made any change in the "blue slip" custom? None. Would it have changed the rule that allows a single Senator to derail proceedings, at least temporarily? No. And, most important, would it have changed the ability of the Senate majority to bottle up nominations in committee? Not a bit.
As usual, the asshole moves the goalpost, makes shit up, creates his strawman, destroys it, then asks for a correction.
He says the nuclear option would not have changed the blue slip rules or rule IV. Well duh, they have already been changed, that's why the Dem's have to resort to filibusters.
Somebody just shoot me and get it over with.
The same principle (or lack thereof) of the pro-life asshats..protect the fetus at all costs,yet once they are out of the sacred womb, who gives a shit...
Makes perfect sense. In the womb, fetuses are unsullied by the world and truly innocent. During birth, they come into contact with icky vaginas and are tainted by sin, thus not really being worth protecting any more.
this type of appeal is always a moral dilemma for me. i hate to see the troops or veterans wanting, yet filling in with charity just lets the government off the hook and puts a band-aid over their disasterous decisions.
kmc
No dilemma.
Not either/or, but both/and. Work to make things better in the here and now, while at the same time working to change the actions of the government, so it takes responsibility for its own actions.
No dilemma.
Exactly. It's not about scoring political points: it's about doing what is right. It ain't a zero sum game.
Makes perfect sense. In the womb, fetuses are unsullied by the world and truly innocent. During birth, they come into contact with icky vaginas and are tainted by sin, thus not really being worth protecting any more.
Yeah, but I thought that unclean young American men and women were being baptized in the fires of combat in Iraq, for the greater Glory of America...
So shouldn't they be well-nigh revered upon their return, as though they were born-again?
Maybe they can live with his mom.
watertiger | Email | Homepage | 06.04.05 - 6:07 pm | #
Haven't they been through enough?
So who gets to play Stallone in
the war-on-terror era remake of
First Blood?
I don't log in here for snarky comments about Jonah Goldberg. He's history. What do you have to offer instead?
This seems pretty much like SOP, at least since Viet Nam.
Whatever happened to the G.I. Bill BTW?
I was thinking about something close to this earlier, while I was ironing. (Ironing is great for idle speculation.)
Seems to me that most of the various governmental obligations and benefits to military personnel depend on what the classification of the member was and where and under what terms the service was done. Thus, a Reserves officer who did weekend duty and retired from it is entitled to some things, but not to others. Some of the benefits are categorised -only- by whether a service member was Reserves or Active Duty. Then there's the question of where service was done - within the US say, or in Germany.
Then finally there's the question of whether someone was serving in a war zone, or during a war. As I recall the distinction is that war is declared. There was some concern over Korea, for example, which wasn't exactly a US declared war at all. I can remember an ignorant little girl at the VA asserting to my Pop that despite the fact that he was in the CBI, stringing phone lines along the Burma Road and being shot at, he wasn't in a 'war zone' - she had to finally go consult a grownup to discover what the terms CBI and Burma Road and 1943 meant.
So. Here we have a profoundly mixed up cadre of Reserves troops and Regulars, forced service and time-limited, overseas in, as far as I know, an undeclared (under US military rules) war.
It doesn't bode too well for post war service benefits does it?
shouldn't they be well-nigh revered upon their return, as though they were born-again?
You have to sink really low before you can reach great heights. Just look at Dubya. So these soldiers clearly haven't put enough time in snorting coke and evading responsibility. Once they do that, then they can baptized for real in a lake, and after that they can do whatever they want.
I don't log in here for snarky comments about Jonah Goldberg. He's history. What do you have to offer instead?
veritas78
So many other URLs...
Are there no prisons?
I'm surpsied the GOP doesn't want to bring back workhouses and the treadmill.
I don't log in here for snarky comments about Jonah Goldberg.
He's history.
Would that this were true.
Does anyone know what the Rep/Dem composition of congress was in 1974, i.e., when Tricky Dick went down in flames?
I don't log in here for snarky comments about Jonah Goldberg. He's history. What do you have to offer instead?
I offer you a chance to start your own fucking blog.
Vin Deisel, most likely, steve
veritas78 | Email | Homepage | 06.04.05 - 6:28 pm | #
Set up your own blog, asshat. Jeezus I never understand people who are presumptious enough to demand that Atrios post/not post on their pet isses/peeves.
During war veteran's benefits should be indexed to the value of Halliburton's stock.
.
I think my outrage meter has gained a few notches in it.I dont know if this is natural or not.
It does seem tho,that the internet is both a way to pump the outrage and a way to diffuse it.
I see nothing going on that will abate the outrages we witness every fucking day.
GO read "this article by THe Nation. and prepare for more outrage.
It appears this country is not a democracy anymore.THere is no checks and balances.THere is no watching out for those that are in dire need.There is no watching the government in the mainstream.People go about their daily lives buying shoes and not knowing that their government is lying to them day in and day out.We have no plans to stop this we have no outlet for outrage.We dont even have a plan to win another election.Bableing here is not helping,I fear.
I believe that civil disobediance is our only recourse.Of cours,if only one or two of us participate it makes no difference.There must be an uprising and it has to start now.We cannot afford to wait any longer.
I remember when these stories first came out, a bunch of people were deriding them as hogwash, including I believe Glenn "Sigh" Reynolds. Brace yourselves for the pushback...
"Stars & Stripes is objectively pro-terrorist. There can be only one rational response: fire Dan Rather a second time."
Res:
Dems controlled the house and senate.
Don't know the margins.
NTodd--
Once again, you have provided me with much-needed clarity...
So. Here we have a profoundly mixed up cadre of Reserves troops and Regulars, forced service and time-limited, overseas in, as far as I know, an undeclared (under US military rules) war.
Not to mention, in the near future, brand-new battalions made up of out-of-shape, drug using alcoholics!
Not kidding:
The US military has stopped battalion commanders from dismissing new recruits for drug abuse, alcohol, poor fitness and pregnancy in an attempt to halt the rising attrition rate in an army under growing strain as a result of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
No gays, though!
I'm surprised the GOP doesn't want to bring back workhouses and the treadmill.
The Old Man From Scene 24 - Ah, Mount Treadmill, every day we walk the same path. Treadmills however are no longer Republican - but picking oakum, yes, yes that might be worthwhile....
A whole generation will deal with this and tangential issues their whole lives. People are weary of the "Vietnam" analogies, but they're becoming more and more striking.
http://a silentcacophony.blogspot.com/
Here are other resources to support the troops.
simels ... Thanks.
Set up your own blog, asshat. Jeezus I never understand people who are presumptious enough to demand that Atrios post/not post on their pet isses/peeves.
Carpbasman
Biofuels, bitches!
Guess the "dilemma" comes from raising kids. After having been suckered into bailing them out of a variety of problems of their own making I had to face the fact that they my help really wasn't helping at all. Having said that, I have these boxes for anysoldier.com half filled to send. New dilemma is what to write when sending them? I'm leaning toward just sending amusing cards along with the boxes with a sincer message to be safe.
"At this festive season of the year, Mr. Scrooge," said the gentleman, taking up a pen, "it is more than usually desirable that we should suffer some slight provision for the poor and the destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir."
"Are there no prisons?" asked Scrooge.
"Plenty of prisons," said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.
"And the union workhouses?" demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"
"They are, still," returned the gentleman, "I wish I could say they were not."
"The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour then?" said Scrooge.
"Both very busy, sir."
"Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course," said
Scrooge. "I am very glad to hear it."
"Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christmas cheer of mind or body to the multitude," returned the poor gentleman, "a few of us are endeavoring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?"
"Nothing!" Scrooge replied.
"You wish to be anonymous?"
"I wish to be left alone," said Scrooge. "Since you ask me what I wish gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas, and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help support the establishments I have mentioned--they cost enough: and those who are badly off can go there."
"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."
"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population. Besides--excuse me--I don't know that."
"But you might know it," observed the gentlemen.
"It's not my business," Scrooge returned. "It's enough for a man to understand his own business, and not to interfere with other people's. Mine occupies me constantly. Good-afternoon, gentlemen!"
Biofuels, bitches!
I remember when Atrios was all about the biofuels. He's changed, man.
simels ...
Pareles has a piece in tomorrow's "Farts & Seizures" on Coldplay. It's called "The Case Against Coldplay: The grandiose, calculated self-pity of the decade's most insufferable band."
Ouch!
>I don't log in here for snarky comments about Jonah Goldberg. He's history. What do you have to offer instead?<
Yes, I agree. Snarking the brain dead is just wrong. I think if Jonah (the whale) wants to give real comfort to our homeless vets he should go back to his old job of blowing old fat republicans for rent money. He could then do his part by donating the proceeds to the Vets, because he doesn't need the money because he lives with his psychotic cunt of a mother.
I demand that Atrios and Atriots only discuss what I want to discuss!
.
Maybe one of the homeless Iraq vets can be found dead in a dumpster and Rush Limbaugh can make fun of him on his show.
(/end sarcasm)
I demand that Atrios and Atriots only discuss what I want to discuss!
.
spork_incident
Let's talk about this, shall we?
And about how Atrios has changed...
Res
The 1974 congressional elections, held only two months after the pardon, gave the Democrats control over both houses of Congress.
What kind of economics professor are you? It used to be all about the money, man...
Maybe one of the homeless Iraq vets can be found dead in a dumpster and Rush Limbaugh can make fun of him on his show.
would that it were just a joke... but I'm sure both will happen.
I read the coldplay article. Just made me feel old. I've heard of them, but I have no idea what they sound like.
Though in my defense I have been spending a lot of time on biofuels research.
It doesn't bode too well for post war service benefits does it?
Not at all. Those benifits are expensive™ and sorta resemble socialism.
They should pull themselves up by their own bootstraps is all.
.
I just want to mention that I think that Bush (and others) deserve to be Impeached. Thank you.
I've heard of them, but I have no idea what they sound like.
*coughKazaacough*
Maybe one of the homeless Iraq vets can be found dead in a dumpster and Rush Limbaugh can make fun of him on his show.
(/end sarcasm)
tinheart
Hmm. Limbaugh did just say the other day that making Election Day a holiday wouldn't help Dems because "most Democratic voters don't have jobs."
And now here are these homeless, unemployed vets.
Does this mean that men and women who have done their duty are more likely to be Democrats?
And why doesn't this surprise me?
GO read "this article by THe Nation. and prepare for more outrage.
Yeah smalfish I already read it and couldn't (really could) believe it. It's not like Saddam would have been trying to proke US airstrikes.
This was an obvious attempt to create an incident like a US pilot being shot down and captured. This really needs to go into the impeachment case against Bush and his buddies.
Read the story everyone.
.
True this blog ain't what it used to be. I mean, back in the old days I didn't even put titles on my posts. Much more old school then.
They should pull themselves up by their own bootstraps is all.
and suffer quietly and out of sight because it's just not right for the poor and unfortunate to rain on the parade of the elite by inflicting their unkempt appearance and problems on the rest of us.
Coldplay are basically Radiohead
without the sense of humor.
They should be called Ernest Angst.
I think Atrios should read us a scary bedtime story about peak oil, and have the hero be a magical elf called Biofuel.
Anybody seen my calculator? It's the one with the special buttons. My Public Editor bitch slapped me and I lost it.
Think it's time for a vacation!
The US military has stopped battalion commanders from dismissing new recruits for drug abuse, alcohol, poor fitness and pregnancy in an attempt to halt the rising attrition rate in an army under growing strain as a result of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I think that this indicates that the recruiting problem is even worse than they have said. It would seem that they lowered the standards some time ago which is why they now have this problem. Don't forget that high school kid who said he had a drug problem and was told that it was not a problem. I don't think that would have happened five or six years ago.
Even I've heard of Coldplay!
"Yellow" is a great song
(I even saw a video -- forget the song now)
I liked them (steve simels, is that okay?)
Anybody seen my calculator? It's the one with the specia...
Yada yada yada Clinton got a blow job yada yada Liberals persecute Christians yada yada yada Ronnie Earle is a crackpot yada yada yada Something about negroes yada yada George Soros is Jewish yada yada yada Atrios' real name is Duncan yada yada yada We really really really are turning the corner in Iraq I swear yada
I've heard of them, but I have no idea what they sound like.
Put in U2's October, imagine it if it were overproduced with Bono plaintively whining when he sings.
I liked them (steve simels, is that okay?)
Prior Aelred | Email | Homepage | 06.04.05 - 6:47 pm | #
As Chuck Barris once said,
what do I know? I like cold toilet
seats.
Not my cup of tea, but so what?
Smalfish, I'm feeling the same discomfort you are feeling right now. I've found though, that at the times I'm ready to give up is when others are begining to take notice. It seems I'm cursed to see the danger ahead, but helpless to warn others of it.
When someone with true power steps up and gives the call to action, the masses will follow. It's just a matter of time. But calls for yet another protest march or placid chants won't do. We need some real, old fashioned action*.
What we need most of all right now is to keep cool and find someone to direct the energy of the masses.
*The link looks scary, but it's actually a very good story that isn't told often enough.
"I remember when Atrios was all about the biofuels. He's changed, man."
That was before we discovered cake on this blog.
Pineapple upside down cake, anyone?
I also like biofuels 
Atrios sez:
Though in my defense I have been spending a lot of time on biofuels research.
See? Atrios is keeping it real.
So much for the naysayers.
.
Outta here for a couple of hours.
Hopefully I'll be back for the live
crappy SCi-Fi channel movie
blogging.
back in the old days I didn't even put titles on my posts.
See, you gave into externally-imposed structures just to fit in. And now you're on teevee talking about blogging, but you've lost your soul.
"I remember when Atrios was all about the biofuels. He's changed, man."
That was before we discovered cake on this blog.
Pineapple upside down cake, anyone?
Pineapple upside down cake, or pineapple upside down death?
/Izzard
Didn't the Coldplay guy date Gwyneth Paltrow? That's all I got (and maybe wrong at that).
See, you gave into externally-imposed structures just to fit in. And now you're on teevee talking about blogging, but you've lost your soul.
NTodd
Plus, like all liberals, he doesn't like money.
Wait. Now I'm confused.
Actually, homelessness was high among Nam vets -- don't know about the statistics (sorry Sallyh) or what it was like for Korean & WWII vets (one thinks of the GI Bill & Levitt toens for the WWII vets & a lot of the Korean vets were the same guys, but they were a lot of destroyed souls even among those who came back)
Re: The Army, Army Reserve and Marines Recruitment Shortfalls
What possible BS spin are they going to try to place on this. Can there be a clearer more basic demonstration of how this country just doesn't believe in this war.
Even the Marines are falling short. And remember the KIA numbers are 15 or so a week. We can't even cover that. The worst weeks in VietNam were like 350 KIA a week.
As someone said the other day 9/11 was really the American Reichstag fire. BushCo. has manipulated the public over this terroism in a way that's unbelievable. Now Bush's only hope is to have another terrorist attack that will probably increase his approval rating. That's the Bizarro World we're in right now. "Fighting terrorism is hard work".
.
Sallyh sez:
Pineapple upside down cake, anyone?
Yes, please.
I made a mango upside down cake last week. It was good.
Mostly, though, I just like saying "mango."
.
chris/tx --
IIRC, not only dated Paltrow but married her & fathered her baby
Rory--your choice. But the girls tell me it's pretty good.
NTodd, settle down and eat your cake, or there will be no pony for you!
Prior - You are correct. Just googled it, apparently she was pregnant at her secret wedding, the horror!
don't know about the statistics (sorry Sallyh) or what it was like for Korean & WWII vets (one thinks of the GI Bill & Levitt toens for the WWII vets
As a matter of fact, in the first year or two following WWII demobilization, tens of thousands of soldiers returning to the US were housing in Quonset huts, and even in unused military cargo holds, because of the housing crunch.
Of course, that's a whole different dynamic from what's been going on since Vietnam.
After WWII, it really was a matter of a country that'd been mired in Depression for over a decade simply not having enough houses.
The gov't stepped up, then. The housing industry took off, and the GI Bill enabled soldiers to afford houses, and education, and loans for small businesses. (Unfortunately, it's also a fact that minority vets were roundly screwed in the disbursement of these benefits.)
Agent Orange --
I've been calling 9-11 our Reichstag Fire for a long time (after all, it is longer ago than the time between Pearl Harbor & the end of WWII -- just sayin') -- not that I am saying that Regime Bush Co actually committed the 9-11 attacks (it seems that the results in Iraq indicate that they are incapable of such efficiency) but I'm not sure Hitler planned the Reichstag Fire, but his government certainly made use of it after the fact & Cheny & Co have done the same w/ 9-11
NTodd, settle down and eat your cake, or there will be no pony for you!
I thought GWPDA was going to send him a burro.
I mean, the USPS mails hippos so an ornery burro shouldn't be a problem.
.
I don't think it is a given that another terrorist attack *would* increase W's ratings.
but it sure as hell wouldn't be the first time I was wrong
Anyone familiar with The Bonus Army march and encampment in Wash DC in 1932......that's what the vets now should do. Shame them into action
Hmmm... workhouses, tradmills, picking oakum... why not have Press Gangs?
They could just grab anyone they see driving a car with a "W" sticker on it until they have enough Infantry and Marines for Iraq.
This way the Jonah Goldbergs of the world get to put their life & limb where their mouths are.
Down the memory hole:
"Iraq'd
I'll have more on this when I have more time, but it's clear from beig in DC that Iraq is going to continue to be a big problem for Democrats
-Atrios"
Spork--damn, you remind me, I'd best get out to the market so I can be home in time for whatever debacle is on SciFi at 6 PDT.
(You had to be there last night, what with the hippo reference).
Sallyh - could you save me a piece? I'm going out for dinner and don't want to ruin my appetite.
Thanks rorschach for the clarification (BTW -- welcome back -- sorry things still suck) -- minority vets always get screwed -- one of the reasons that the VFW & American Legion were hostile to returning Nam vets (much moreso than the "hippies' were) was that so many of the Nam vets were "brothers"
Flory--of course! And if NTodd doesn't get over here, you may eat his as well
scout prime sez:
Anyone familiar with The Bonus Army march and encampment in Wash DC in 1932......that's what the vets now should do. Shame them into action
Unfortunately there are still many MacArthurs eager to attack vets.
.
I made a mango upside down cake last week. It was good.
Mostly, though, I just like saying "mango."
I like saying "monkey", "toes", and "potato", but none of them make very appetizing upside-down cake ingredients.
The gov't stepped up, then. The housing industry took off, and the GI Bill enabled soldiers to afford houses, and education, and loans for small businesses.
Look at any 1950's era suburb you'll see miles of housing built for returning GI's.
Most of it selling for about $5000.
hadenough | Email | Homepage | 06.04.05 - 7:02 pm | #
Some, but not much, elucidation here.
Prior Aelred--
My pleasure. I recently did a bit of research on the realities of the immediate postwar, and it does much to debunk the myths proffered by the "Greatest Generation" people. Things were never so simple.
And the American Legion has always sucked. Major Red-baiters in the 1950s. Nasty business.
And thank you for your kind wishes. I've put about 8 hours today into the continued cleaning and repairs. Eventually, we shall have a lovely home once more...
spork_incident
Yeah McArthur kicked them out and killed a few in the process but I think their action had a lot to do with how WWII vets were treated much better (GI Bill etc.)
They didn't want another Bonus Army on their doorstep.
"The old money guy has a twin-prop airplane and that is pretty incredible," Mr. Kittredge continued. "For his time, that is pretty great. Now he is talking to a guy who is half his age who has a transcontinental jet. That is the end of the conversation.
"Or you meet someone and they start telling you about their boat. He has a 45-foot boat and he is very happy with it. Then he'll say, 'Do you have a boat?' And you say, 'Yes.' 'Well, what kind of boat do you have?' And you say, 'A Fed Ship.' And he says, 'How big is it?' That's how people rank them. So I have to say, 'It's 200 feet.' It's the end of the conversation. Is there envy? Yes, could be. Was he a wealthy guy in his day? Absolutely, but relative to today - no. The two worlds can mix as long as they don't talk too much."
Carpbasman,
"Some, but not much, elucidation here."
Yeah, I saw that. I was hoping for more.
"For many self-made men," Mr. Aldrich said, "homes, boats and even membership in expensive clubs are trophy signs of wealth. But for the older money, a boat may well be part of a tableau that has to do with family, with his grandparents and his children. It is part of his identity. If he walked away from the conversation, it was because he thought he was talking about his boat as part of his life. Instead he found he was talking about money, and he doesn't like being reminded that he lives in a competitive world."
Mostly, though, I just like saying "mango."
I like saying "monkey",
Just begging for an Eddie Izzard comment...
Look at any 1950's era suburb you'll see miles of housing built for returning GI's.
Most of it selling for about $5000.
flory
Indeed. And the results of this were odd then (and remain odd in many cases). There's a great documentary on Leavittown (perhaps just called "Leavittown") on all the weird things people did to their cookie-cutter houses, in order to enforce a feeling of individuality...
(also, assertions of wife-swapping parties in this epitome of suburbia, but that's another story.)
You got me on the Nam thing, dammit -- people my age were affected by Nam whether we went or not (I just stayed on a ship in the Gulf of Tonkin)
I come from a small Ohio town (ca 25,000) -- 10 guys from my town died in Nam -- most of them three years older than I
When I was in the Gulf (during our "secret" war in Cambodia) we were not supposed to be fighting the North Vietnamese, but Marine PFC Stephen Eugene Bullard died of small arms fire anyway, God rest his soul
Now I have to go to recreation (& I can hear the sighs of relief from here)
Cheny & Co have done the same w/ 9-11
Prior Aelred
The thing that astonishes me is that if there is another terrorist attack in the US, regardless of how deadly, Bush's approval ratings will go up.
He'll of course have to blow something up right away as retaliation. He'll go on TV and blather about how are enemies are resourceful. He'll imply that dissent is disloyality. He'll invokes God's continued(?) blessings.
The FOXNews gasbags will go on about how lucky we are that George Bush and not that big puss John Kerry is President. And his approval ratings will skyrocket.
BTW If Kerry were President when we were attacked a second time it would of course be because Kerry is perceived as weak leader by our enemies.
What an effin' mess this all is. And of course no one has the courage to address the real cause of this all which is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the US blind support of Israel. Not a Republican not a Democrat.
.
Things were never so simple.
Of course they were! And things are simple now. It's people like you who don'r pretend that everything is simple who make the world complicated. Your problem? Not enough clearheaded Tom Friedman type thinking.
Sheesh!
Anyone familiar with The Bonus Army march and encampment in Wash DC in 1932
as pointed out upthread, Hoover sent in MacArthur to disperse them by force
link
On July 28, Attorney General Mitchell ordered the evacuation of the veterans from all government property, Entrusted with the job, the Washington police met with resistance, shots were fired and two marchers killed. Learning of the shooting at lunch, President Hoover ordered the army to clear out the veterans. Infantry and cavalry supported by six tanks were dispatched with Chief of Staff General Douglas MacArthur in command. Major Dwight D. Eisenhower served as his liaison with Washington police and Major George Patton led the cavalry.
By 4:45 P.M. the troops were massed on Pennsylvania Ave. below the Capitol. Thousands of Civil Service employees spilled out of work and lined the streets to watch. The veterans, assuming the military display was in their honor, cheered. Suddenly Patton's troopers turned and charged. "Shame, Shame" the spectators cried. Soldiers with fixed bayonets followed, hurling tear gas into the crowd.
By nightfall the BEF had retreated across the Anacostia River where Hoover ordered MacArthur to stop. Ignoring the command, the general led his infantry to the main camp. By early morning the 10,000 inhabitants were routed and the camp in flames. Two babies died and nearby hospitals overwhelmed with casualties. Eisenhower later wrote, "the whole scene was pitiful. The veterans were ragged, ill-fed, and felt themselves badly abused. To suddenly see the whole encampment going up in flames just added to the pity."
Ah, Thers. To the godlike intelligence, such as your own, I'm sure all the pieces fit together.
But I must labor away with the few pounds of cerebral meat granted me by evolution... Sigh.
The Army, Army Reserve and Marines Recruitment Shortfalls
What possible BS spin are they going to try to place on this.
The military is not becoming unpopular. It is just attracting a more selective audience.
Anyone familiar with The Bonus Army march and encampment in Wash DC in 1932......that's what the vets now should do. Shame them into action
First of all, they have no shame. Second of all, they have Vance International.
Coldplay are basically Radiohead
without the sense of humor
I'll argue that point, Stevie.
At their best (Clocks, God Put a Smile on Your Face), Coldplay is a much better band than Radiohead.
Radiohead can't write tunes for shit. I have most of their stuff, having bought it used on the cheap, and I can't warm up to them.
Sorry, O Master...
But I must labor away with the few pounds of cerebral meat granted me by evolution... Sigh.
Mmmm. Cerebral meat...
But I must labor away with the few pounds of cerebral meat granted me by evolution... Sigh.
Tortilla Sacromonte!
The thing that astonishes me is that if there is another terrorist attack in the US, regardless of how deadly, Bush's approval ratings will go up.
That does suck but in fairness, there hasn't been another terror attack on our soil. 9/11 was terrible, but blame only partly resides with Bushboy. During Clinton we had a lot of terror attacks.
And of course no one has the courage to address the real cause of this all which is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the US blind support of Israel. Not a Republican not a Democrat
Word.
Tho,it is now way beyond that little mess.Junior has made muslims into martyrs,that will be remembered for generations.In the history it will not be remembered that the end of the world(as we know it) was a bitterness between Isreal and apestine and the us blind faith movement,rather it will be the us's involvement in illegal activities in the middle east.
I wish I was not immune to koolaid.I could use some relief from the outrage.
Shaneless, shameless sitewhoring!
Something I wrote way back during the Clinton years.
Still relevant today. Dammit!
if NTodd doesn't get over here, you may eat his as well
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Well, if Kerry had been elected, I imagine he'd take care of the vets.
The military is not becoming unpopular. It is just attracting a more selective audience.
Kinda like Dear McLeader.
.
yeah, we never got Radiohead. There are so may really good bands out there that are "alternative" or not picked up by the mainstream, and Radiohead hardfly qualifies as such the sixteenth time they're all over the TV, you'd think they're write music at some point or something. What we decided with Radiohead was that they're supposed to be awful, because not only is this what mindless pedant critics think is art music, but it's part of the media's purpose to generally irritate.
During Clinton we had a lot of terror attacks.
On our soil?
there hasn't been another terror attack on our soil.
So...?
At their best (Clocks, God Put a Smile on Your Face), Coldplay is a much better band than Radiohead.
At their best, Coldplay is openly ripping off early U2 and they damn near admit it in last weeks Entertainment Weekly.
if NTodd doesn't get over here, you may eat his as well
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Can I have some of those vowels if you're not using them?
Hecate sez:
Well, if Kerry had been elected, I imagine he'd take care of the vets.
Isn't Kerry a commiefascist traitor?
That's what the teevee told me, anyway.
.
there hasn't been another terror attack on our soil.
YET.
And when it happens we can all be rest assured ,we will ALL become victims.Our government will have all the necessary motivations to rule in our stead.And buddy,you know they will rule with an iron fist.
On our soil?
A couple anyway.
.
I really didn't like OK Computer, but then I really loved hail to the thief... now I like OK computer quite a bit.
9/11 was terrible, but blame only partly resides with Bushboy. During Clinton we had a lot of terror attacks.
How many did we have on our soil during Clinton's tenure? How many people died? How many of the perps were brought to justice? How many plots were stopped? Would you be willing to eat shit and die?
Thanks in advance.
" I have most of their stuff, having bought it used on the cheap, and I can't warm up to them."
Amazing coincidence: I've got the Live cd on now. On my fishing trip I repeatedly played two cd's, this one and the Beach Boy's Pet Sounds(vocals only cd) over and over again.
I gotta say radiohead gets better with more listens.
Can I have some of those vowels if you're not using them?
Sr! Tk s mn(y) s (y) nd.
there hasn't been another terror attack on our soil.
Ummmmm, Anthrax anyone?
And most of the terrorist attacks on US soil in the 90'e wasn't coming from the Middle East.
Just sayin....
So, who gives a shit?
It was their own choice not to have Private Veteran Benefit Accounts.
Tough love, people, tough love.
During Clinton we had a lot of terror attacks.
silky |
OK they were in the US... WTC 7(?) died. Conspirators captured, convicted and sentenced.
OK City Fed Building. Good ole home grown domestic terroism.
Overseas
USS Cole. Sorry doesn't count. The Cole is a one billion dollar miltary destroyer designed to protect a 6 billion dollar aircraft carrier. It was nearly sunk by 2 guys in a inflatable Zodiac. I call that a well planned commando mission against a hard military target. Not terroism. Blowing up civilian buses is terroism.
US emabassies in Africa. Clinton retaliated with something like 80 cruise missiles but was accused of wagging the dog to distract attention from the Monica L. story. Who's fault was that?
Please expand.
Or weren't, ymmv
disgusted ...
I just read that piece. My favorite part was the guy who had sold his business for $500MM saying, "I work hard!? Does he think the rest of the world doesn't work hard, too?
At their best, Coldplay is openly ripping off early U2 and they damn near admit it in last weeks Entertainment Weekly.
I don't see that at all. Whether they were or not, the vibe is different.
a ou!
Ummmmm, Anthrax anyone?
That one was inside job,so it does'nt count.
Hey, maybe Jonah might be interested in updating this George Stevens clasic.
He could play the Jean Arthur role to Jude Law's Joel McCrea.
The Charles Coburn part, needless to say, goes to William Kristol.
Carpbasman sez:
Ummmmm, Anthrax anyone?
I wonder how that investigation is going.
Surely our FBI is devoting all of its resources to finding the perp.
.
a ou!
ou'e eoe!
We've always had terrorist attacks in the US. What do you call what the KKK did? What do you call what happened to the labor movement leaders? To the suffragettes? To abortion doctors and abortion clinics?
We've always had terrorist attacks. They just used to be from Americans directed at other Americans and they used not to involved rich white people. 9/11 "changed everything" because white lawyers and bond traders and investment bankers were the targets.
Just sayin
I did like Radiohead's Creep. Based on that and the critical response (the savior of rock and roll was one cat's take), I bought all the albums.
I've listened to 'OK Computer' time and again to see if it would grow on me (a la Exile on Main Street). It never did.
And of course no one has the courage to address the real cause of this all which is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the US blind support of Israel. Not a Republican not a Democrat
Word
And a second "Word".
I use to talk to a wide variety of Arabs when I was a single guy living in the ME during the late '80's. It was amazing how they all gave me the same answer of what they had against America. Did not matter if they were Shia, Sunni, Kurd, etc. Did not matter what economic class they came from.
All said basically the same thing, "Why has Israel been a recognized independent state for forty years, and their is still not an independent Palestine? Why do you treat Israel as your 51st state?"
BushCo totally overlooked winning any hearts and minds after 9/11, and went for the muscle approach. We could have won over probably 90% of the worlds Muslims with a different approach after 9/11, but the neocons had to have their pound of flesh.
Disclaimer - Yes, I know the Palestinians share in the fault for not having their own state by now.
David E sez:
He could play the Jean Arthur role to Jude Law's Joel McCrea.
I have a serious crush on Jean Arthur.
Though she was terrible in Shane.
.
Does he think the rest of the world doesn't work hard, too?
Nah. Rush Limaugh Works Hard™.
I have a little hobby that occupies 4 ten hour days.
You, Liberal studying the Law, 2 strikes on you buddy.
.
I'd like to see one TV wingnuts be confronted with the issue of homeless vets - for real.
And let's see them try to tell America that the people they like to call "war heroes" when its politically expedient are "lazy" and "morally bankrupt" once they come back from their hitch and find there's back rent to pay, no decent-paying jobs to be had and mounting medical bills and that the cost of living basically means they can no longer keep a rood over their head.
Yes, the people in Walter Reed who have to pay for their own meals and phone calls so Bush's corrupt Pioneers can get their tax cuts.
Republicans fucking disgust me. Rotting in Hell for eternity isn't near a harsh enough punishment for these assholes.
"Busted!
Get a lok at the theivery from this guy Republican Bret Schundler.Caught stealing a DFA ad campaign photo.
Why do the rethugs think they can get away with this crap?
Every school should teach every child about The Battle of Homestead.
.
We've always had terrorist attacks in the US. What do you call what the KKK did? What do you call what happened to the labor movement leaders? To the suffragettes? To abortion doctors and abortion clinics?
If I may: KKK=white attacks on nonwhites. Therefore, not terrorism.
Gov't attacks on labor movement=capitalists attacks on workers. Therefore, not terrorism.
Suffragettes? Men attacking women. Not terrorism.
Abortion workers? Prevention of genocide, or the work of random loonies. Not terrorism.
Terrorism=brown folks killing white folks. The end.
QED
If the US had taken a mediating policy in the Middle East as they did between India and Pakistan we would not be in this mess today.
The conservative Jewish lobby and AIPAC control US foreign policy in the Middle East. As Brent Scowcroft said, "George W Bush is wrapped around Ariel Sharon's little finger".
.
Hecate - that's just crazy talk.
"I have a serious crush on Jean Arthur."
So did Mary Martin.
Why do the rethugs think they can get away with this crap?
smalfish |
They've changed it on their website.
.
Terrorism=brown folks killing (rich) white folks. The end.
Now it's dialed in.
It just occured to me that it is now beer thirty.
.
Terrorism=brown folks killing (rich) white folks. The end.
Now it's dialed in.
It just occured to me that it is now beer thirty.
Yeah, I left the "rich" out, thinking of the janitors and such killed at the WTC.
But, then again, if it'd just been janitors, it'd have been "criminal," not "terrorist."
The working-class killed on 9-11 were just collateral damage to the actual terrorist attack...
Sorry, is my cynicism showing?
Terrorism=brown folks killing white folks. The end.
Eric Rudolph=Hero.
Our Justice Department loves white xtian terrorists.
.
"I have a serious crush on Jean Arthur."
So did Mary Martin.
J.R. Ewing's mom?
The things you learn on the internets...
.
Thanks again, rorschach -- this time for explaining terorism -- now all is clear
Um, even if Coldplay is "derivative' of early U2, I think that is a great band (& period) to steal from -- I mean, who would steal from The Commodores (although I must admit I actually liked front man Lionel Ritchie's "All Night Long")
Every school should teach every child about The Battle of Homestead.
What, you have something against the Haymarket Affair?
And BTW, BGSU is where a lot of my high school friends ended up. Either that or TU. Or OSU.
You're welcome, Prior. Glad that my history of returning WWII vets and my explanation of terrorism were both worthwhile.
As to liking Lionel Ritchie... De gustibus...
Um, even if Coldplay is "derivative' of early U2, I think that is a great band (& period) to steal from -- I mean, who would steal from The Commodores (although I must admit I actually liked front man Lionel Ritchie's "All Night Long")
Thank you.
I always liked the guitar solo in "I'm
Easy".
And "She's a Brick.... HOUSE
She's mighty, mighty
and she's letting it all hang out".
Oh, c'mon you pikers. Let's go to the source, shall we? Take it away, Karl!
Militarism
by
Karl Liebknecht
IV
CONCERNING SOME CARDINAL SINS OF MILITARISM.
MALTREATMENT OF SOLDIERS OR MILITARISM AS A REPENTANT,
YET UNREFORMED SINNER.
The militarists are not all dull-witted. That is proven by the extremely clever educational system they have introduced. With noteworthy skill they rely upon mass psychology. The army of Fredericks composed of mercenaries and the scum of the population, had to be kept together for its mechanical tasks by pipe-clay drill and thrashings. That is no longer possible in an army formed on the basis of a civic duty and placing much greater demands upon the individual. This was clearly recognized at once by men like Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, (59) whose army reorganization began with the proclamation of the "freedom of the back." Yet, bad treatment, brutal insults, beatings and all kinds of cruel maltreatment belong also to the stock-in-trade of our present system of military education.
The attitude of military circles toward the maltreatment of soldiers is naturally not determined by considerations of ethics, civilization, humanity, justice, Christianity and other fine things, but purely by jesuitical expedients. The hidden danger which that maltreatment constitutes for the discipline and the "spirit" of the army itself (60) has not even to-day been generally recognized.(61) The ragging of new recruits and recalcitrants by the older men, the brutal barracks jokes and vulgar language of all kind, and the fairly frequent knocks and blows and hazing, are heartily apt proved without scruple and are even positively considered necessary by the majority of non-commissioned officers and even officers, who, estranged from and hostile to the people, have been trained to become the most narrow-minded petty despots. The fight against those outrages therefore meets almost at the outset, with an all but insuperable passive resistance. Privately, but not publicly, one may hear daily how superiors describe the desire for decent treatment of the "fellows" as a symptom of a silly humanitarian soft-headedness. Military service is a rude business. But even where they have thoroughly recognized the hidden dangers of disciplinary maltreatments they find themselves again in face of one of those disagreeable alternatives at which a system based on brute force and setting itself against the natural development must always arrive, and several of which we have already pointed out. For those maltreatments are indeed (as we shall show more conclusively) indispensable auxiliaries of the external drill which capitalist militarism, (for which the inward voluntary discipline is an unattainable goal), can not dispense with for want of a better method. We repeat that they are considered, not officially, it is true, but semi-officially, in spite of all the scruples and regrets we hear expressed, not as a legal, but as an indispensable means of military education.
That does suck but in fairness, there hasn't been another terror attack on our soil. 9/11 was terrible, but blame only partly resides with Bushboy. During Clinton we had a lot of terror attacks.
THere was only one al Qaeda attack on US soil under Clinton, the first WTC attack. Several other plots were thwarted before they could be carried out.
Under Bush there was 9/11.
Under Clinton there was the Embassy bombings and the Cole attack.
According to Fox News all the violence in Iraq is carried out by "Terrorists" so the 10,000s of Iraqis and 1,000 plus Americans killed so far there go on Bush's tally.
We were far safer when Clinton was President, Bush is doing nothing but make the situation worse with his blundering macho bullshit.
GWPDA--
Ah, Karl Liebknecht. Just a couple weeks ago, I was hanging out near the balcony at the Kaiser's Berlin City Palace, from which he declared the socialist republic of Germany...
And walking across the place where they pulled his body, and Rosa Luxemburg's, from the water.
I just saw a great movie on video, "The Wicker Man."
They got to toast a fundie at the end of it.
Yes, rorschach, Karl's my guy. On the other hand, my brother, Bunny-Bunny, was always a fan of Rosa's.... Ah, family, what can you do...
Leibknect needs to be translated into shorter sentences and words before Americans, trained to avoid every complexity and even seeming complexity, will pay attention. The ideas are compelling but Americans have lost the habit of paying attention.
America is also trained to not care about homeless people. It's sentimental regard for veterans, a mile wide and the thickness of a polyester antenna flag, won't go to providing them and their families with housing.
Remember, way back to 1980, America used to be ashamed of destitution in the land of plenty? Then our media got hep to Reaganism. The homeless were an eyesore to be moved on by force, not a national shame to be repaired.
It took extensive training to make the American people forget their better side. We won't make them remember without an even greater effort.
"I have a serious crush on Jean Arthur."
So did Mary Martin.
Mary Martin was gay?
Now I know why the character she played in SOUTH PACIFIC was named "Nellie Forbush."
So did Mary Martin.
David Ehrenstein
Her heart didn't belong to daddy?
Oops, ', cancell. If digby is going to be slammed for it I certainly will.
but purely by jesuitical expedients
Not entirely a fair phrase, by the way. Robert Drinan, the slain Jesuits in El Salvador. There are good people in that order. These days there are plenty of Franciscans that are more deserving of the slam. Look at the Mad Monk of Boston.
Since Mary Martin was Peter Pan, it surely was OK for Peter pan to like girls, right?
(Whatever happened to Cyril Richard? [i.e. Captain Hook])
Send them back to Iraq.
Better yet, explain to me how these guys got out of the service anyway?
MYOB'
.
Cheney got out of service because he could afford to be a student & then because he was married & then because his wife was pregnant -- Limbaugh because he had a pimple on his butt -- DeLay because all the persons of color already took all the good combat positions (or something -- I never quite figured that one out myself)
(Whatever happened to Cyril Richard? [i.e. Captain Hook]
If memory serves, he died of a heart attack suffered onstage while performing in the national touring company of Side by Side by Sondheim in the mid-1970s.
DeLay because all the persons of color already took all the good combat positions (or something -- I never quite figured that one out myself)
Prior Aelred
"Think less hard". Good advice that was once given to me in a similar situation. It works quite well when dealing with conservatives of any kind.
From the NCHV "about" page:
Our community-based service providers represent 46 states and the District of Columbia, and we offer assistance to any homeless service provider that contacts our office.
I don't mean to insult any good work they may be doing - but speaking as someone who tried to assist a young homeless mother last year - there seems to be a dirth of organizations who "advocate", "coordinate", "promote", "enable", blah, fucking, blah fucking blah, and scant few who actually DO a goddamn thing.
I can only imagine how many thousands of people are making a living on grants and various funding who do nothing more practical than copy lists from each other. If you're collecting lists of "resources" you're in luck. If you're actually looking for a bed or a roof, you're shit out of luck.
When I just used the NCHV site to "Locate a Community Based Organization" in my area I found a list exactly like the list I was given at each of the places listed. Not a single one of those places was able to actually provide - um.. you know....HOUSING.
puhleeze - the places to start are always, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, the Salvation Army, Interfaith Cooperative and the Sisters of Mercy. All the rest are games. And gamed.
but, but, but...I got a yellow ribbon magnet on my SUV, ain't that good enough?
I thought they volunteered to get their legs blown off?
[/Jonah Goldberg, Lucianne's little chubby]
Advocates for the homeless already are seeing veterans from the war on terror living on the street, and say the government must do more to ease their transition from military to civilian life.
Hey, to our GOP overlords, those folks were tools...to be used for the aggrandizement and enrichment of Bush and his cohorts and then to be thrown away when their usefulness is over.
These troops are not PEOPLE to Bush and his chickenhawk buddies.
but, but, but...I got a yellow ribbon magnet on my SUV, ain't that good enough?
? |
You mean one of them thar ribbons ya buy at the Wal Mart?
The ones made in CHINA?
Attacking Iraq before the war's authorization from Congress just shows Bush's bold leadership and vision for America. ( According to my true believing neighbors). The crazier Bush acts the more they think he's a genius. Until he starts costing them money, their jobs or their kids' lives, he will be a genius and we will be nay sayers without a plan.
But the neo-cons are the same people who will rant about how Viet Nam vets were treated even though they were so focused on themselves they didn't go to Vietnam OR protest.
scout prime
Worse yet, the ones who DID serve in Nam, support THIS debacle and IGNORE these vets and their problems.
Cheney got out of service because he could afford to be a student & then because he was married & then because his wife was pregnant -- Limbaugh because he had a pimple on his butt -- DeLay because all the persons of color already took all the good combat positions (or something -- I never quite figured that one out myself)
Prior Aelred
Trent Lott because he was too busy being a cheerleader in college.
spork incident, you've said the words to melt my heart. I wrote my senior honors thesis at the University of Wisconsin on four strikes: Homestead, Pullman (1894), Lawrence (1912) and Homestead miners strike. Great stuff.
I don't log in here for snarky comments about Jonah Goldberg. He's history. What do you have to offer instead?
veritas78
An opportunity for you to take your ass out of here.
there hasn't been another terror attack on our soil.
Wait till Preznit Asshole's numbers go down some more!
I DO believe that the Bush White House was BEHIND 9/11. They haven't caught OBL because they don't want to catch him - he is their partner in crime!
The crazier Bush acts the more they think he's a genius. Until he starts costing them money, their jobs or their kids' lives, he will be a genius and we will be nay sayers without a plan.
Bluto W Bush
I want to take a baseball bat and beat some sense into those morons.
To quote Marvin Gaye: "Makes me wanna holler...throw up both my hands!"
I do not understand how there can be homeless veterans of the Iraq war. It seems to me that they 1) could have stayed in the service or 2)that if they were wounded they would be receiveing pensions. Sure the pensions are not that big but they are big enough to live in Arkansas or Oklahoma.
Sure the pensions are not that big but they are big enough to live in Arkansas or Oklahoma.
Matt |
Yes, but who'd WANT to??????????????????
Matt, I think you're missing the main point -- many soldiers *do* choose to leave the service after their first or second tour (many more now than previously), and it says something that we do very little to prepare our troops for life post-"three hots and a cot."
Disability compensations are not particularly high. For example, 100% disability, no spouse or children, is $2,299/mo., which is enough to live in Oklamhoma or Arkansas if you don't have any special medical needs, but probably not enough when you realize that this is a soldier that the military has deemed essentially 100% physically ruined.
If you're deemed 50% disabled (which, given the way the VA calculates these things, is very seriously disabled), you get $663 per month. So you can't live off disability alone (unless you've got twenty years in and were disabled in a combat situation, but that's a different story).
Beyond that, there's nothing new about homeless vets post-Vietnam. It's extremely common for a young man to join a service, put in eight years, get out, and be completely unprepared for life in the civilian world. Spend some time on the streets of any metropolitan area near the homeless shelters, and you'll meet quite a few. The main difference is that, given a war situation, many of these soldiers are leaving with PTSD and other psychological conditions that make it difficult for them to adapt to the rigors of civilian life.
Remember, these guys usually leave with few or no marketable skills, nothing beyond a high-school education, may not have anyone on the civilian side with whom they can stay, and have to find a job and a place to live with basically no safety net in place and no real understanding of how the civilian world works. As always, we ask them to devote their lives to our country, and then forget about them for 364 days of the year once they're out.
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