HULK SMASHED
No more coffee for Atrios.
Bell Curve will go down in history as one of the foundation document of post WWII racism. It already is. Since our ruling elite relies on racism for a good part of its plan it will be defended to the hilt.
It is our Protocols and My Struggle, I'm afraid.
Interesting how wingnuts don't see the rise of Christian fundamentalism as being part of the decrease in intelligence in America. And with schoolkids learning that the world was created out of clay by some great white alpha male, that's only going to get worse.
The "soft bigotry of low expectations indeed".
The Bell Curve is pure pseudoscience in that it follows the pseudoscientific method of beginning with a conclusion and then marshalling evidence for it. All the science, correct or not, but mostly sheer nonsense, is window-dressing for the political conclusion: That black people aren't as smart as white people and so, screw them.
Of course, that itself in an interpretation. Even if the 10-15 point difference in IQ between black and whites is correct, all it means is that there's so little difference in human intelligence between what we abstractly refer to as races* that even with completely skewed and culturally biased testing, you can't do better than pull a marginal difference in scores from your ass.
*The idea of "race" as some genetic component is nonsense to. Despite phenotypical differences a white person and a black person (or some other "race") may be more genetically related to each other than a black person to another black person and a white to a white. For the full breakdown on this, see the excellent DVD "Race: The Power of an Illusion".
Jill, they are always pointing out the high achievement of children who go to 'christian' schools. Not all 'christian' schools and not all students that go to them. They never take into account that private schools are not required to take all students and that public schools are required to serve all of them, including those rejected by 'christian' schools.
This kind of selective analysis is the fool's gold standard of conservative social science.
The problem we are facing is a convergence of several groups who have managed to just barely eek out an electoral victory. (Maybe) We are already beginning to witness the breakdown in their alliance. I.D.ers do not believe the earth is 6,000 years old. Fiscal conservatives believe the fundies are whackos. Rascists want a return to seperation. Etc. It is only a matter of time til it starts to fall apart.
The breakdown can't come fast enough for me. Pass the popcorn.
This kind of selective analysis is the fool's gold standard of conservative social science.
EPT
As long as you ignore the fact that private schools self-select, can kick anyone out at any time, and so do not have to spend resources on "detention" or even quasi-prisons (and certainly don't have to maintain a police force and a bus fleet, as every school district here in Texas seems to do), and that by definition they draw from a higher socio-economic class, where the stress of poverty is virtually non-existent and emphasis on education is reinforced by the fact Mom & Dad can afford private school BECAUSE of their education (and aren't poor in spite of education)...
well.....
The correct response to the wingnuts is simple: It wasn't peer reviewed. End of discussion.
Come back with a scientific, peer reviewed work and we'll talk. Until then, shut the fuck up.
I wonder if it mentions the effects of colonialization by the european powers as a gigantic transfer of wealth to the palefaces.
Afterall,we live in a world where the rich,regardless of IQ,are perceived as smart and superior.
They are reintroducing the Bell Curve to attack the immigrants.
does the book cite the mustard seed test?
Murray and his ilk apparently don't care to admit that the "blood" of both of these races has been mixed with European "blood" for so many centuries that it is virtually indistinguishable from his own.
Right. They should have listed the difference in IQ between a quadroon and an octoroon.
This is the same high-school hallway crap theory I had to endure in my all-white suburban high school back in the 60s. Along with the jocks whining that they couldn't compete equally with the inner-city high school teams because those colored folks had extra tendons in their ankles. Straw poll in the 1968 election favored George Wallace by over 50%, Nixon and Humphrey has to split the remaining 45%.
Thanks for analyzing -- so I don't have to!
Some people look at the evidence and think it justifies racism (even if they dislike the word racism).
Others look at the same evidence and laugh at how ridiculous it is.
What's the difference? The first group wants to believe that their race is more intelligent. And racism is exactly the right word.
HICA, ever-body!
And remember -- you can't spell BOHICA without HCA!
Now, it's been a while since I took an actual IQ test (I think I took one in elementary school), but do they still ask questions such as "On which side of the plate should the salad fork reside?"
.
It's funny... the faster generation cycle is exactly an argument I've made — about why conservatism persists. Not based on race, but on the cultural reality that the less educated are less likely to be liberal and more likely to reproduce, thereby threatening the "cognitive capital of the country."
Maybe the Bell Curve is just another instance of rightist projection.
Where can i buy it? I am out of TP and this post has given me the shits.
Someone ought to write a book about how the Bell Curve is putting downward pressure on the distribution of American national intelligence.
Shit! Now I know why Chimpy is so stupid - he must have latino immigrant in his blood. OOOps! Sorry Latinos, I really didn't mean that.
Why does anyone pay attention to books like this? It should have dropped into the memory hole about 5 minutes after being published.
Fresh coffee, everyone. Is Sallyh here with muffins yet?
The more we learn of archeology, the more we learn that people moved quite effectively around the world even before modern technology.
The human tenderncy to draw lines between each other has always been balanced by the drive to travel, explore, trade and conquer. And where these travelers, generally men, went, they hooked up with the women there, by force or by choice.
I'd wager that many American whites have black ancestry. Once a person could "pass for" white, they did. If 3/4 or 7/8 of one of your prior generations was "white," that's pretty much what you are. The pity is that the memory African ancestry had to be buried. in shame.
The idea that anyone, white, black, or in-between, could be stupider or more cowardly than the Doughy Pantload is ridiculous.
Evolutionary progress means the extinction of the less competent.
But, but, but... what about Intelligent Design??? So we believe in evolution if it gets rid of those dumb blacks???
My younger daughter was labeled "gifted" and was put into the "Gifted & Talented" program, where a substantial amount of time in grade school was spent on how to take a test. I wonder if all students were so instructed how much of the supposed gap would diminish.
My older girl was just high average and did almost as well in her S.A.T.s.
Eugenics.
Oh! I meant to follow-up on the fact that all of Nashville's local TV stations ran footage of the return of the remains of three TN Nat'l Guardsmen. As it so happens, Fred Phelps' army showed up at a memorial service for the gentleman who was from Ashland City (just a couple miles away from where I live), holding up the "God Hates Fags" signs, etc. The father of the fallen guardsman was interviewed, and could barely contain his rage. Paraphrased: "How can these people call themselves Christian? The espouse nothing but hatred."
.
Everyone knows the English and Germans haven't made too tasty with the food they had available, and without Latinos and African-Americans there'd be no guacamole,salsas, tacos; without Black folks no good barbeque, jerk chicken or sweet potato pie; all of which contribute to a kind of cultural intelligence called "good eatin" which I'm not prepared to do without. Curve, Schmurve!
There is a heartbreaking article by Jonathan Kozol in this month's Harper's about the state of urban schools. It makes the case that the children in these schools are being "trained" rather than educated.
One high school girl speaks about how she has been forced to take a sewing class because there are no AP classes available.
When we have dismantled the apartheid educational system in this country, then we can talk about this or that group's "intelligence."
And it will still be racist bullshit.
All those Nazis the US saved after WWII have raised a couple of generations with the eugenics ideology. Eugenics alive and well in the USA. That's why we beat Hitler - so that we could grab his "scientists" and make a white paradise from sea to shining sea, across the prairies and over the mountains.
"Bell Curve" is just Thomas Dixon wrapped up in pseudo-scientific language. Sound familiar?
I'd like to hear someone reconcile literal creationism with the premise of the Bell Curve.
Either natural selection occurs or it doesn't. Can't have it both ways.
Excellent smackdown.
I seem to remember back in the late sixties/early seventies and IQ test designed to cause low scores by whites. I can't remember any of the actual questions, but they were as relevant to inner city life, and as likely to be unfamiliar to suburban dwellers, as most IQ tests are irrelevant to inner city life and as likely to unfamiliar to those who dwell there. My score on standard IQ tests tends to be fairly respectable, but I scored in the low 90s on that test. Last time I figured an IQ test was good for anything except explaining what social background someone had -- in case you couldn't just, you know, ask them.
The idea that anyone, white, black, or in-between, could be stupider or more cowardly than the Doughy Pantload is ridiculous.
Lime Rickey
All the advantages.
Wealth.
Ivy league.
White.
And he still can't pronounce "nuclear".
here is a great mathematical representation of a "bell" type distribution curve.
http://thinks.com/java/balldrop/...drop/
normal.htm
not that i believe a bit of what the bell curve book says.
Private schools.
There was a recent study that suggested based upon math scores (reading was eliminated because more affluent families read to their children more), that public schools and private schools are very comparable in their quality. Test score disparity has more to due with parental involvement and the emphasis on education in more affluent families. My wife and I are lucky in that our 6 year old daughter is in an international baccalaureate program at a public school. We supplement this with reading and math at home. We have many friends with their children in private schools, and we see a mixed bag. Some of the schools seem to be better in some ways, some seem to be much worse. One friend's daughter was in a catholic school kindergarten with 30 kids!.
Amen, brother. Amen.
connections
every human on earth is AT LEAST 32nd cousin to every other human on earth...
all of which contribute to a kind of cultural intelligence called "good eatin" which I'm not prepared to do without. Curve, Schmurve!
plantsman | Email | Homepage | 08.27.05 - 9:56 am | #
Did you ever eat a black peach?
MOrning moonbats,
Seems as if racism and the ideals of naziism are far from dead in this age of neocons and ultra far right policies. This stuff is all too prevelant in todays society.
When will our species learn to help those that are in need, and give instead of take? We, as a species are failing ourselves.
Now I have to go and help some people.
See ya'll later.
I'd like to hear someone reconcile literal creationism with the premise of the Bell Curve.
Well God's a white guy of course. Silly.
More second-rate intellectuals (for lack of a better term) posturing on behalf of the elite.
I've known quite a few dumb white people. Lots of them, as a matter of fact.
The thought that some groups might be more intelligent than others really scares the shit out of you guys.
Science be damned!
So many critiques. Just done reading Thomas Sowell's article.
It's mostly beside the point. The Bell Curve never said enviroment played no factor. Yes you can get rural white children that would score lower on IQ tests because of their enviroment.
And yes racial groups as a whole have made differing gains over the years on standardized IQ test. Back to the Bell Curve. The book never said enviroment does not play a role. Of course education and better nutrition, etc. play a role.
What it does say is that in study after study, controlling for outside factors, race is an important determinate in IQ tests.
Everthing else is just detractors putting words in the authors mouths, mind reading their racist thoughts.
Frankly, many liberals are not being consistent here. If you think politics or religion should stay out of the debates on global warming, evoulution like I do. You should lay off scientists who choose to study genetic differences in human intelligence (or what they define as intelligence)
Chimpy should be considered definitive proof that wealth doesn't correlate with merit. If he'd been born into my income class, he'd be lucky to hold down a job mopping out the johns at McD's. And that'd only be if the manager was a relative.
Well God's a white guy of course.
Try for a minute to imagine all the ways in which our society would be different if we conceived of the divine as both masculine nd feminine, as white, black, asian, hispanic, etc., etc. Imagine how differently a young African American woman would feel about herself if she'd always been taught that she was created in the image and likeness of the divine -- the Goddess Yemaya, for instance.
You'll understand immediately why they insist that God is an old white man.
Did Byron Calame, public editor of the Times, sign-off on this “correction” which contains further lies? Was he too lazy to read it carefully and check it for accuracy? If so, he has lost whatever credibility he might once have had, and adds no value to the organization. If not, then either he must comment on Krugman’s further distortions, or his silence reasonably can be construed as acquiescence to lies.
The New York Times has seen its reputation and credibility erode seriously under the leadership of "Pinch" Sulzberger, its hereditary publisher. The continuous rise of the internet has enabled critics to hyperlink source material proving Krugman’s lack of integrity. Krugman simply could not get away with his lies if he were required to post hyperlinks. So Krugman and his backers at the Times hierarchy are in essence flaunting the inadequacies of their publishing format in a manner which will provide ample grist for the critics to demonstrate their obsolescence.
Why is the New York Times still employing a serial liar in its op ed pages? There are only a few answers, and none of them bodes well for the shareholders of the New York Times Company, the newspaper industry (which is virtually ignoring the scandal), or Krugman’s reputation.
Ouch!
I've known quite a few dumb white people. Lots of them, as a matter of fact.
cosmic rays
Hell, I'm related to a bunch of 'em.
And good morning, Moonbatriots.
bemused: Not really. Being more intelligent than trolls is something I take comfort in.
The thought that some groups might be more intelligent than others really scares the shit out of you guys.
Science be damned!
bemused -- 10:08 am
groups are not--in fact, cannot, logically or rhetorically, be--'intelligent.'
intelligence is only meaningful (to the extent that it can be meaningfully measured at all) when applied to individuals...
10-15 point variations among individuals are not statistically significant...there is no significant differences within the same statistical standard deviation...
i'm guessin you'd check in at about 80, btw...
mine's 150, btw...
so why doncha just blow me....
again...
.
Geez, the boiler room has denizens even on Saturday morning?
Gotta afford those cheetos somehow, I guess.
A good morning to all others.
It appears some people think that writing a book makes one a scientist.
Ever hear of peer review? It's a real common thang in science circles. Look into it.
.
You should lay off scientists who choose to study genetic differences in human intelligence (or what they define as intelligence)
Science is only good when it says what liberals want it to. Otherwise, science is very, very bad and don't you think otherwise.
Oh, and if Duncan doesn't like the conclusions then is it really science at all!?
Pathetic.
Last night on Lou Dobbs' show (he had a sub - not sure who it was) there was a report on the Dallas school board and its new requirement that school principals speak Spanish as well as English. What seems quite reasonable to me - fluency in Spanish as an essential communication skill - was immediately reduced to, "What PC crap! The parents of students should have to learn English!"
Does every single discussion about public policy have to be cast as Us-vs.-Them?
Where did all the grown-ups go?
Trolls, nature's punching bag!
Is The Bell Curve being brought up again because Rove, et al, are using immigration as another wedge issue in the '06 elections? So it's being touted in the Rethug "intellectual" blogs and mags? Just laying the ground work for the Righties to have "talking points"?
I thought TBC had been hammered down and buried. I'm obviously behind the curve on this one.
So ugly, so Repugnant.
Science without peer review is opinion.
Science without peer review is opinion.
Science without peer review is opinion.
Science without peer review is opinion.
Science without peer review is opinion.
Science without peer review is opinion.
.
intelligence is only meaningful (to the extent that it can be meaningfully measured at all) when applied to individuals...
Quite possibly the stupidest thing ever said. Your not a scientist, are you Woody?
Just for fun, let's say that the Bell Curve is absolutely, unassailably watertight. What conclusions should we draw?
Bemused, bcurve - what do you recommend that we do, public-policy wise?
Science is only good when it says what liberals want it to. Otherwise, science is very, very bad and don't you think otherwise.
Now there's a reasoned defense of the book's conclusions if I ever heard one.
Bravo.
Quite possibly the stupidest thing ever said. Your not a scientist, are you Woody?
bemused -10:20 am
my bona fides is widely known here.
but when are you gonna blow me
again...
the look on your face when i ejaculated cum all over your pouting lower lip...priceless
and you loved it, too, dincha, cully...
Peer review? You want peer review by those in entirely different fields. You'll take what you can get as long as it fits your politics...LOL
The fact of the matter is this small group of individuals who do this line of work and they agree with the basic premise of the book. There are racial difference in human intelligence.
Your not a scientist
Once again, for the benefit of the "morans":
Your - denotes ownership, i.e. "May I use your phone?
You're - contraction for "You are", i.e. "Bemused, you're a stupid fuckstick not worthy to carry WGG'S baggage."
Atrios is right. This book sure does bring out the "niggers are stupid" crowd, who are all apparently too stupid to read plain sentences in English let alone understand any of the arguments about this book.
Yesterday we had padcrasher telling us that he believed the book because it fit his 40 years of personal experience. In other words, he spent 40 years believing niggers are stupid and then a book filled with "data" and "math" and stuff came along and confirmed what he knew all along, learned from all those years hanging around with stupid niggers. Niggers ARE stupid!
For the record, I'm one of those stupid niggers.
uh bemused are you referring to krugman bring up the consortium results that showed gore wouldve won a manual recount? he made one error, which he corrected--the first consortium found gore would have won only 2 out of 3 manual recounts, not 3 out of 3. The second one found gore would have won all of them. the error was called to his attention, and he promptly corrected it--because he is intellectually honest.
"even if you use their thoroughly discredited logistic regression analysis that assumes no IQ socioeconomic status interaction"
They do that? This alone places the authors' conclusions outside the mainstream.
Why aren't people like Sully and other "reasonable" BC apologists laughed out of the public arean?
the look on your face when i ejaculated cum all over your pouting lower lip...priceless
and you loved it, too, dincha, cully...
WoodyGuthriesGuitar
You are a sick man. Get help.
I'm listening to an old set by Michael Franti and Spearhead.
The only way to read this thread.
You can listen too.
Here's the link to triple j in Australia. Just click listen.
You are a sick man. Get help.
bemused -- 10:28 am
i love it when my sex slaves get all jealous and wussy...
he can't stand it that i might spread my spooge over someone else's lower lip...
sooooo sweeeeet!~
.
Just for fun, let's say that the Bell Curve is absolutely, unassailably watertight. What conclusions should we draw?
Bemused, bcurve - what do you recommend that we do, public-policy wise?
Stan
The silence in response to this question speaks volumes. What other answer can they give except "cull the herd"?
Racist fucks.
What seems quite reasonable to me - fluency in Spanish as an essential communication skill - was immediately reduced to, "What PC crap! The parents of students should have to learn English!"
When I was young, language classes were not offered in elementary school as they are in school systems today. Had they been available, I would have loved it, and it would have been an valuable enhancement to my life.
I am - OK, I know some will disagree with me - against multi-lingual requirements for the adults when funds are not being spent to educate the students in languages. EVERYONE should have fluency in at least two languages. That means English speakers gearing up in French or German (or God knows, Mandarin - might as well be realistic) or Spanish... but not just as an administrative tool.
That's another way of segregating people, and we need a semblance of unity.
The insecurity of those who feel compelled to correct typos never ceases to amaze. What are they so scared of?
One of the biggest flaws in the myth of IQ and metrics to validate it is the fact that 'intelligence' in humans manifests itself in multiple modalities, kinetic, social, linguistic, artistic, matematical/musical. It is possible for gifted individuals to go off the chart in one of those aspects, while having less than average gifts in other aspects. This helps to explain how brilliant mathematicians may also be backwards, socially--though this is not necessarily the case.
I have a theory of topological intelligence, in which the 5 areas of cognitive intelligence are organized in peaks and valleys from a heap of basic apptitude. Developmental pathways unfold in pushing up mountains, forming valleys, or in some individuals, a flat plain, in which all of their gifts are right in the middle. Since development plays a role in this process, it is possible that individual experiences that are constrained by their environment do lead to opportunities to develop along some pathways to a higher extent than others. But there cannot be any kind of 'racial' component in this process, because 'racial' characteristics, are a kind of a mythology, in biological terms. They may exist culturally, but they have no biological reality.
For all of these reasons, metrics around the linguistic and mathematical abilities, defined by members of a single cultural elite cohort--are absolutely meaningless in terms of measuring 'intelligence'. The whole thing is a SCAM.
i love it when my sex slaves get all jealous and wussy...
he can't stand it that i might spread my spooge over someone else's lower lip...
sooooo sweeeeet!~
.
WoodyGuthriesGuitar
I can't help but notice the misogynystic undertones. For your own sake, get help.
The insecurity of those who feel compelled to defend racism never ceases to amaze. What are they so scared of?
The insecurity of those who feel compelled to correct typos never ceases to amaze.
Another beautifully reasoned defense of the book!
Wow!
...all of Nashville's local TV stations ran footage of the return of the remains of three TN Nat'l Guardsmen. As it so happens, Fred Phelps' army showed up at a memorial service for the gentleman who was from Ashland City (just a couple miles away from where I live), holding up the "God Hates Fags" signs, etc.
But-- but-- it's Code Pink that hates the troops!!!
What conclusions should we draw?
In the scheme of things not alot.
How about not pointing to racism each time we get differing group outcomes in standardized apptitude tests? SAT, ACT, etc.
Ah, you're "janet" from yesterday! I'm still waiting for my fucking eggs, bitch!
Ah, you're "janet" from yesterday! I'm still waiting for my fucking eggs, bitch!
My favorite example of the benefits of "race-mixing"!
You are a sick man. Get help.
Sweet, sweet projection - the racist cracker's bestest buddy.
Take a fucking hike, klansman. You are not welcome here.
despite the fact that the dismal quality of urban schools, disproportinately filled with blacks and hispanics, is apparent for anyone with eyes, padcrasher thinks that if we see differences in outcomes across races, that rather than thinking that there is a problem with urban schools we should just remind our selves that "well, those niggers sure are stupid!"
After all, 40 years of hanging around with stupid niggers makes padcrasher an expert on these things.
For all of these reasons, metrics around the linguistic and mathematical abilities, defined by members of a single cultural elite cohort--are absolutely meaningless in terms of easuring 'intelligence'. The whole thing is a SCAM.
c4logic -- 10:32 am
didja ever hear of Howard Gardner, th MIT psychologist? His theory of multiple intelligences is now about 20 years old. he names eight distinct cognitive modalities, though in principle, the number could be much larger...Check it out
Shorter racist cracker motherfucker: "The negroes stole our dates!"
How about not pointing to racism each time we get differing group outcomes in standardized apptitude tests? SAT, ACT, etc.
Why not? Let's hear your reasoning.
Does anyone know where one can read Steven J. Gould's dissection of the Bell Curve? Mismeasure of Man was written way before the Bell Curve, so it's not in there.
BTW, there's absolutely, positively no reason to respond to Our Little Klansman with anything but gales of derisive laughter, peppered with the most obscene language you can think of. The point of this whole post was to say "Blow it out your ass, racist motherfucker." More of that, please...
yeah ive got howard gardners book somewhere. it made sense to me--different people are good at different things--duh. i knew this hispanic guy, almost illiterate, but he could practically look at a car engine and know what was wrong, or fix a gadget he had never seen before.
id define that as intelligence.
spork you've spent two post totally taking what I said out of context, putting words in my mouth.
This is par for the course when it comes to this subject. Those that disagree get called names, spit on, branded racists, bigots. (Atrios apparently gave you a choice. He said we're either racists or fools)
For those interested only in peer-reviewed results, check out Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns, the report from a blue-ribbon panel the American Psychological Association appointed to review the scientific questions around the Bell Curve controversy.
That is, if you want to visit the questions with an open mind, rather than just join a lynch mob.
padcrasher,
YOu believe that blacks are on average stupider than whites and the bell curve has proven this, and that it fits your personal experience. Correct?
Intelligence simply is not quantifiable...
intelligence is short-hand for a way of being in the world.
there are lots of ways to successfully be in the world.
none of them include troolage...
cosmic rays-
Those are all good points. My annoyance was not with the bilingualism-slows-assimilation argument per se. I was simply dumbfounded by how quickly it turned into a simplistic shouting match.
My question about assimilation is - how do you address a need for effective communication (i.e. speaking Spanish with parents who may not speak English, even if their kids do) without allowing passive segregation by spoken language? In other words, I understand the rationale behind encouraging the use of one language. But how does a school district do that without compromising parental involvement, if parents are not fluent in English?
What conclusions should we draw?
In the scheme of things not alot
How disingenuous.
Come on. Admit it. You've drawn conclusions. What are they?
But if what you claim is true and there are essentially no conclusions for the public policy arena to be drawn, then what the hell good is the book -- except to make some little-dicked flabby white guy eating Cheetos in his mom's basement feel smugly superior?
"One of the biggest flaws in the myth of IQ and metrics to validate it is the fact that 'intelligence' in humans manifests itself in multiple modalities, kinetic, social, linguistic, artistic, matematical/musical. "
The Bell Curve addresses this. They say forget about defining "IQ". It's pointless. Of course there are other types of human aptitude like artistic skill. Just call what the IQ test measure "x". Having a high "x" score correlates with high income.
I think what this book clearly shows is that we need to bring up these inferior races to our own standards of high intelligence, so that all countries of the world can make decisions as intelligently as white-run America does.
I'm mean, we could "cull" them out, but it would take enourmous resources to eradicate stupid races from the planet - a world war of truly epic proportions that would destroy the white economy. You have to be mexican to even think of something so impractical.
Fortunately, nature has given us an ultimate weapon - the penises and vaginas of all these intelligent white folk.
We need to immediately begin a program of rampant, multiracial sex. We need to do nothing but send our sons and daughters into the ghettos of the inner city and the transient farm pickers, to sleep and be slept with and marry. But, every white women needs to have at least one pure white child, because we will need undiluted genes to mix with the second generation of mulatto children to really knock those stupid genes out.
Europe will have to do the same thing of course.
Then, the world. Since our manufacturing jobs will have all moved to inferior brown skinned countries by that point (which doesn't make sense ... but, white people are making that decision, so I guess it is OK), this will solve two problems at once. We will be improving the genestock of the world, AND find good stable working families overseas for our great grand children to move in with.
So we need to start working hard to get this plan into motion. I sugest going to fundementalist churches, which tend to be full of white people (who by nature must be smart), and pass out literature explaining why they must immediately divorce each other and start sleeping with brown and black people. Point out that this won't just be spreading smart genes, but will be a great opportunity to spread the word of God into new communities. Be sure to pass out copies of the book to them, and let them know they can contact the author if they have any questions.
We need to immediately begin a program of rampant, multiracial sex.
Now there's a noble cause I could volunteer for. 
Having a high "x" score correlates with high income.
George W. Bush totally disproves your statement, which is a quite silly anyway.
Round in circles they go.
one of the people that the bell curve quoted was named rushton. he formed a hypothesis that iq was inversely proportional to penis size. i read that one of his research "studies" used the following methodology. he asked guys in a shopping mall how big their penis was. (now we all know that guys never lie about this). i think he was trying to correlate self reported penis size with iq. i believe he estimated the iqs of the guys in the mall, then compared it to how big they said they were.
my question is--why should we take a book that relies on people like this seriously?
pie we're talking group outcomes here. Kinda of the point of calling the book the "Bell Curve" instead of "Hey but I once knew this guy..."
pie we're talking group outcomes here. Kinda of the point of calling the book the "Bell Curve" instead of "Hey but I once knew this guy..."
pad you could call the book the principia mathematica and it would still be bad science.
Policy outcomes? How about discouraging the separation of races into large housing complexes? More intergration of Suburban school districts with their urban counterparts? Equal funding of schools on a Statewide basis? No tax incentives for private schools.
we're talking group outcomes here
Without enough valid scientific data. This *book* is a nice little story and its conclusions are far from the final word on this subject.
File it on the shelf and move on.
Mysticdog: LOL! Though I'm afraid I'm a bit to old to join your crusade. I could still technically do it, but I'm too damn tired to.
People, there are no "pure races." There never have been.
What amazes me is how many people from my ethnic group buy into this crap. After all, 100 years ago we Slavs were among those "inferior peoples" who shouldn't be allowed into this country.
I used to listen to my mom's old stories. She grew up in a Polish neighborhood, learned it as her first language, and studied it in school along with English. She did go to a Catholic school, but I understand that bilingual teachers were common in the public schools, too.
One year she worked a census worker, assigned to an area where many people's English skills were poor or nil. The government managed to accomodate people then.
My favorite story, though, was about the black mailman who learned Polish so he could talk with the ladies on his route. Why can't we all have such a friendly attitude?
cosmic rays --
I wish I could remember who it was who said that the person who understands only one language understands none.
Different languages provide different perspectives & thought categories (which might be why Republicans are so opposed to multi-lingualism)
Sitting here in my Little Rock home, with Central High about 3 miles away, I have a bit of problem relating to a vague abstraction expressing how white folks are inherently more intelligent than black folks.
A good bit of the fuzzy thinking here is comparing grouping people statistically (a mathematically abstract way) to an actual group of living breathing people. Even if individual white folks in a group possess a higher mean IQ than an equivalent grouping of black folks (which I don't buy, but for the sake of hypothesis), that doesn't prevent said group from acting like morons, because in real life groups of humans are driven far more by emotions than reason, hence the notion of "mob mentality".
That was true of white folks in 1957, and true of an alarming number of white folks in 2005.
my question is what is all the anxiety about intelligence in the first place? why should "we" give a single thought to "breeding" that trait into our national stock? how gross.
Why not breed out meanness while we're at it: we could start by burying the Bell Curve authors' testicals at the Four Corners in a National Pagan Fertility Ritual...
pie we're talking group outcomes here. Kinda of the point of calling the book the "Bell Curve" instead of "Hey but I once knew this guy..."
padcrasher
OK, let's talk about group outcomes here. If you take the bell curves representing the IQ score distributions WITHIN each and every ethnic group you can come up with (race is NOT a genetic construct - and has already debunked) and put all of these curves on the same graph the overlap on the graph that contains every group would constitute the vast majority of each group. There is no difference that has any meaning when differentiating between the groups.
"even if you use their thoroughly discredited logistic regression analysis that assumes no IQ socioeconomic status interaction"
They do that? This alone places the authors' conclusions outside the mainstream.
Uh, no, they don't do that. Of course it is a common debating tactic to dismiss something as "thoroughly discredited" whether it is or not. (In fact, when The Bell Curve was attacked, 52 intelligence researchers took out a newspaper ad "Mainstream Science on Intelligence", that said "Some conclusions dismissed in the media as discredited are actually firmly supported.")
When there are many intercorrelated factors you can always dispute which should be in and which should be out and how they can be weighted and which type of analysis should be performed. That doesn't mean that a specific analysis is "thoroughly discredited."
One paper that piles on factors and finds a much smaller effect of IQ is A Reanalysis of The Bell Cuve by Korenman and Winship.
But, in the same paper, they analyze the results by just comparing siblings in the data. This matches a lot of characteristics between individuals (not quite a controlled experiment, but close.)
They find "Incredible as it may seem, our sibling analyses suggest that, even though Herrnstein and Murray's parental SES index is poorly measured and narrowly conceived, it appears in most cases to be adequate for producing unbiased estimates of the effects of AFQT score on socioeoconomic outcomes."
Charles Murray independently did a similar analysis, published in Income Inequality and IQ, which you can download here. It is pretty startling how close the estimates from siblings match up with the original Bell Curve estimates.
Does anyone know where one can read Steven J. Gould's dissection of the Bell Curve? Mismeasure of Man was written way before the Bell Curve, so it's not in there.
Joe | Email | Homepage | 08.27.05 - 10:39 am | #
In 1996, Gould published a revised and expanded edition of The Mismeasure of Man, which does include his critique of The Bell Curve.
" They conclude, "Putting the pieces together--higher fertility and a faster generational cycle among the less intelligent and an immigrant population that is probably somewhat below the native-born average--the case is strong that something worth worrying about is happening to the cognitive capital of the country" "
If this were true (which I very much doubt) it would only show that some human groups had evolved characteristics that were less adaptive - and that more suitable sub-groups were doing their part to protect the future of our species - unkowingly, of course.
Believing that (logical) intelligence - the type measured in IQ tests - is an inherently good adaptation and more of it is always better - is like saying that my cats claws should be 4 inches long.
Every species has a balance of adaptations that suit its needs in its niche. To evolve more of one - always requires a reduction in another.
Just because we are smart enough to understand some of the elements of evolution doesn't mean we are anywhere near smart enough to replace its complex workings and millions of interractions with our own egocentric needs.
Perhaps our logical ability to develop ever more powerful weapons that can kill ever more millions of us - regardless of the victim's IQ - is the ultimate proof of this.
Wingnut,
AEI? Are you fucking kidding?
Wingnut,
AEI? Are you fucking kidding?
Sorry, was there a factual question here?
As I said above, Korenman and Winship, who are professors (Baruch College-CUNY and Harvard) got very similar results on the sibling question.
Forgive me if someone already mentioned this, but Andrew Sullivan has a post today proudly defending his role in publishing excerpts from The Bell Curve. He also criticizes liberals for not wanting to debate the book's arguments.
This IQ-Race debate is usually a waste of time. Invariably, it focuses on the book “The Bell Curve,” which is really out of date and the authors are not the most knowledgeable on the topic. The question is, do you want spend time skewering some old text (like shooting fish in a barrel) or do you want to actually discuss whether IQ and Race are related. If it is the later, you will be pleased to know that there are actually many hundreds of researchers exploring this problem and the field has advanced considerably over the last 15 years. If you what discuss the issue, then read on.
This very year (2005), the American Psychological Association reviewed the topic extensively in the premier PEER REVIEWED journal, American Psychologist (American Psychologist. 60(1), Jan 2005). Despite any ideological positions, the debate has not been settled and there are good arguments on both sides. Really, scientific we don’t know yet. However, it does address a lot of the crap arguments out there, like race doesn’t exist and neither does intelligence. It is difficult to summarize even one issue here, but I could give you as taste about how we could more consistently elevate our arguments.
The best article of the lot, in my humble opinion (and I don’t mind if you differ), is “Under the Skin On the Impartial Treatment of Genetic and Environmental Hypotheses of Racial Differences” by David Rowe. He outlines exactly what research needs to be done to decisively resolve this issue, which has yet to be done but certainly we can presently do it.
Also, he discussed where race has meaning and where it doesn’t. It certainly is incredibly useful for medical decisions, for example. Here is a quick quote, “The sickle-cell anemia mutation, which arose in Africa under the selective pressure of malaria, is more common in Africans than it is in other racial or ethnic groups. This disorder of the red blood cells has an allele frequency of.10-.20 in Africans, compared with less than.001 in U.S. Whites.” That genetic attributes can be associated with defined groups, though not perfectly, indicates it is possible, that other traits, such as some genetically related cognitive capability is as well. Of course, maybe it isn’t. We are not sure yet.
Either outcome certainly could arise, and despite both being distasteful for respective groups, guess what? The world isn’t designed to be consistent with anyone’s intuitions, do matter how highly you value them. The outcome could really piss people off, but that is life. And that is a reality based discussion.
Get Informed!
http://www.apa.org/releases/race.html
Regarding "races," DNA testing has now gotten cheap enough and available enough that amateur genealogists are now testing themselves for fun and research purposes. (See, among many others, www.ancestrybydna.com; www.africanancestry.com; www.familytreedna.com.) Nearly nobody is "pure" anything, they're learning.
By the way, Charles "Bell Curve" Murray is also a known cross-burner:
...Near the end of his high school days in Newton, Iowa, Murray and some of his pals went out one night and burned a cross next door to the police station. To my knowledge, the reams of coverage accorded Murray for his pseudo-scientific apologia on behalf of racism have produced only two mentions of this incident. One was in a 1994 New York Times Magazine profile, the other a bit later on the Donahue show. In both instances Murray protested that he had no idea as to the racial significance of cross-burning. There were only two black families in Newton in those days, an old school chum of his added in the Times piece. Well. As it happens, I grew up just 30 miles away from Murray's central Iowa hometown, in an even smaller farming town with no black families at all. But somehow I managed to learn what cross-burning meant by the time I finished high school, and I expect Murray did too.
Circle Jerk much?
http://www.psychpage.com/
learnin...mainstream.html
Not to disagree with anything Atrios has to say about the Bell Curve, but the fact remains that American seems, you know, uh . . . remarkably stupid. Why is that?
Ooh those nazis!
Not counting just IQ, but differences in Beauty, and desire to create, make unmentionable groups unequal.
It's the lack of self esteem and paratism of a certain elite group, which has been running the show since leeching onto Rome that it must cloud the truth of genetics and offer "raptures" "heavens" and "hells." They are charlatans, magicians, snakeoil salesmen.
Do they publish their own IQ scores? And if they fall into the "lesser" category, will they be pahsed out as well?
speaking of books annyone seen this yet...
Mein Kampftown Ladies
15 Visitors Online
Characters Remaining:
Commenting by HaloScan
