HULK SMASH!!!
1 this tine for real
Who's got time to preview?
Turd?
Firth of forth too!
I've fallen and I can't get up!
Was there a nuclear war or something?
Any one out there? Testing!
I'm being Punked! Right?
Agent Orange has become irrelevent: first!
Is this as good for you as it is for me?
Hey Agent Orange!
Why are we continuing this discussion? TBC is a discredited work, and those using it to support their views are equally lacking in credibility.
Agent Orange should switch to decaf. NOW!
Charles Murray: a wholly owned subsidiary of the American Enterprise Institute (he's a fellow there).
What more do you need to know?
see, he had sacrifice but not the requisite resolve
Agent Orange wins the grand prize. Never seen 8 in a row before.
agent orange is dominating this thread! talk about ownage.
I'm going to repeat this:
OK, let's talk about group outcomes here. If you take the bell curves representing the IQ score distributions WITHIN each and every ethnic group you can come up with (race is NOT a genetic construct - and has already debunked) and put all of these curves on the same graph the overlap on the graph that contains every group would constitute the vast majority of each group. There is no difference that has any meaning when differentiating between the groups. Assuming that IQ and race had any intrinsic meanings anyway.
I have absolutely nothing about the Bell Curve on my blog, but if any of you aren't busy (*cough*agentorange*cough), please give it a look, I could use the traffic.
Murray and Herrnstein's regression analyses would have them failing Stats 101.
Janet--comes back to making a faulty argument with a faulty premise.
oh, come on. everyone knows that the farther north your ancestors came from, the better you are. this has been known for centuries.
Olaf--then how do you explain "no blacks, no dogs, no Irish"? 
Agent Orange wins the grand prize. Never seen 8 in a row before.
mer
I had 5 in a row yesterday, and for a brief moment I was both Queen and yente of the blog, but now Agent Orange has humbled me.
agent orange you have set the bar too high! you have permanently deflated the value of posting first!
TBC is simply an argument for letting wealthy white Protestant men rule the world, attempting to dress it up in a cheap tuxedo of bad statistics and pronouncing it ready for the dance.
Olaf--then how do you explain "no blacks, no dogs, no Irish"?
Sallyh | Email | Homepage | 08.27.05 - 12:07 pm | #
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those irishes are catholics, which everyone knows is a wog religion.
Janet,
RE:race is NOT a genetic construct - and has already debunked
What exactly are you saying here? I mean, I agree that the way we apply the commonly used templates of race to different groups of people is often erroneous, but there clearly are some really large groups of humans (with admittedly fuzzy edges), who have acquired some cohesive sets of genetically determined (albeit mostly quite superficial) traits, presumably through several thousand to tens of thousands of years of relative genetic isolation. To me, that satisfies the condition of race being a gentetic construct, so could you clarify?
Olaf--then how do you explain "no blacks, no dogs, no Irish"?
Sallyh | Email | Homepage | 08.27.05 - 12:07 pm
Iceland is pretty damn far north and they have a national obsession with gnomes.
BTW - Hello, Sallyh! [forgot to respond in last thread]
Olaf--unless, of course, you're Opus Dei.
Sweet Jesus, what is the fixation on the Bell Curve today?
The book is bullshit. I know that, you know that, and anybody who still thinks different isn't going to have their mind changed nowadays by repeated posts on a left wing blog. Lets find another topic.
I think what really finished The Bell Curve for me was the silly argument that Asians score higher than white folks due to "cultural" differences, while white folks score higher than negroes due to genetic differences. It's either one or the other.
i wonder what happened to forrester? i never quite understood what position he was taking, maybe due to my scanty knowledge of statistics. but at least he seemed to know the vocabulary.
Sweet Jesus, what is the fixation on the Bell Curve today?
-addison
*******************
i think andrew sullivan has been talking it up again recently. we have to call them on their bullshit every time they bring it up. and it's hard work.
blerb--in terms of genetic differences, there are more dissimilarities between members of one 'race' than between 'races.' I would hypothesize that 'racial differences' were a response to the environments in which groups lived (the sickle cell gene as protection against malaria would support this argument). However, that developed in response to evolutionary pressures, and is not in and of itself a marker of 'race.'
Maybe Sullivan's AIDS is having an effect on his brain. Seriously. It doesn't take much damage at a significant area of the brain and really odd things start to happen. Admission: I don't know spit about AIDS beyond it being a really depressing disease. It might not effect the brain at all for all I know.
The book is bullshit. I know that, you know that, and anybody who still thinks different isn't going to have their mind changed nowadays by repeated posts on a left wing blog. Lets find another topic.
Addison
Word.
We had this conversation 10 years ago and everyone with two brain cells to rub together agreed that 'flawed' is a kind description of this piece of toilet paper.
Why are we talking about it again?
Thank you all. Really you're more than kind.
You should see me "snip" on eBay though...simply brutal.
Off to have a few beers, play nice!
Oh and Fuck Bush!
.
Jeffrey D--it does indeed affect the brain, often in the form of toxoplasmosis.
Regardless of the intellectual merits of "The Bell Curve", it's still rather repugnant that lack of intelligence could be seen as providing reasonable justification for legal discrimination based on race.
It's also kind of weird to realize that almost none of the truly big problems the world is facing right now have been caused at all by people originating from Africa and that we could somehow solve those problems by minimizing Africa's influence on the world.
With that in mind, I'd like to see some Bell Curve apologists explain how a "Blame Africa for everything" strategy is intelligent at all.
The book is bullshit. I know that, you know that, and anybody who still thinks different isn't going to have their mind changed nowadays by repeated posts on a left wing blog. Lets find another topic.
Addison |
No can do amigo. That is precisely how the fundies managed to take over. Most sane people ignored them as ignorant trash that nobody would ever take seriously for years. And look what happened.
Heehee, Agent Orange, I've first three times so far today. Beat that. Of course, I post only once and allow others the privilege of being 2nd and 3rd. I'm not selfish.
A falling dollar, escalating bankruptcies, a meaningless quagmire killing countless and uncounted thousands - where does this put Bush on the bell curve?
Sallyh, do you know all this information because of your profession, or is it a personal interest?
Flory--we have to debunk the messengers by once again debunking the book. Tiresome, isn't it?
Same thing with reproductive rights. Getting old, I tells ya.
blerb--in terms of genetic differences, there are more dissimilarities between members of one 'race' than between 'races
so, for race to be a meaningful term, there would have to be fewer dissimilarities between members of one 'race' than between 'races'? or is that oversimplifying? im pretty fuzzy on what races are supposed to be anyway, i guess the way i see the word used it is like subspecies, but im not sure.
yeah, we won the evolution debate too.
mer--profession. Biostatistician.
[walter neff] First! [/walter neff]
Just about all of this measuring to find difference between racial groups and the genders begins with phony measurements (as Janet points out) and the differences they find are very small.
As has been said on this blog before, when the French invented intellegence testing it was with an eye to fixing problems with additional teaching and training. When the English and Americans took it up it was with an eye to fixing social class in stone. They start with the assumption that it's a fixed and unalterable thing. This all assumes that what they are measuring has some meaning which has never been demonstrated.
The reason that this is important is that the neo-fascists who run our 'news media' are so deficient in math and science skills that they will take this crap and base their reporting on it, no questions asked.
The BBC story about the deficient intellegence of women earlier this week probably has a lot to do with it's being covered so much just now.
pretzelattack--I don't think you could make race a meaningful concept in genetic terms. For example, cystic fibrosis is a disease of northern Europeans, as sickle cell is of those who live in malaria-infested areas. However, southern Europeans, who are considered Caucasian, do not carry the genetic markers for CF. Therefore, it's difficult to consider race as a biological marker.
A falling dollar, escalating bankruptcies, a meaningless quagmire killing countless and uncounted thousands - where does this put Bush on the bell curve?
How 'bout -- Worst. President. Ever.
I think what really finished The Bell Curve for me was the silly argument that Asians score higher than white folks due to "cultural" differences,
-the kenosha kid
*******************
i remember years ago seeing newt gingrich on tv. it was part of a series of lectures that were the basis of his course on western civilization or some thing that he did at some obscure college in georgia.
he kept going on about the cultural differences between "rice growing cultures" such as asia, and "wheat growing cultures" such as europe/usa. as far as i could tell his point was that growing rice requires sustained daily effort and growing wheat just requires periods of intense effort. anyway, supposedly the mindset of people from rice growing cultures lends itself more to academic success. which is his explanation for why those asians do so well in school.
he didn't mention anything about cotton growing cultures or sugar can growing cultures though. i was kind of disappointed.
re having to fight the same battles over and over--they keep recycling the same failed ideas over and over. the domino theory, creationism, bell curve, trickle down economics etc etc
It's bait and switch, folks.
Brining up The Bell Curve is a distraction from the number one topic -- our rape of Iraq.
EPT--I glanced at the study, and it has significant problems to the point where the study should be invalidated.
pretzelattack--I don't think you could make race a meaningful concept in genetic terms. For example, cystic fibrosis is a disease of northern Europeans, as sickle cell is of those who live in malaria-infested areas. However, southern Europeans, who are considered Caucasian, do not carry the genetic markers for CF. Therefore, it's difficult to consider race as a biological marker.
ah that makes sense. i enjoyed your debate with forrester yesterday (and atrios) because it helps this particular scientific illiterate understand the issues better.
I once knew a one-armed nigra pool player who could beat any one-armed white pool player you might care to match against him. He could, however, beat only about 45% of two-armed white pool players.
pretzelattack--I wouldn't consider you scientifically illiterate because you do the most important thing: you ask questions.
Olaf--then how do you explain "no blacks, no dogs, no Irish"?
Well, there are the black irish.
Steven J. Gould effectively rebutted every single assertion presented in The Bell Curve, 10 full years before the publication of the latter.
ah that makes sense. i enjoyed your debate with forrester yesterday (and atrios) because it helps this particular scientific illiterate understand the issues better.
i could have phrased that better--i didnt mean you were debating atrios.
So, what is the effect of this bell curve reasoning? Not letting "brown people to immigrate, deportation of nonwhites, letting them die off because they are genetically deficient? Will laws be created to discriminate (more) against certain races?
newt gingrich used to say all kinds of bizarre shit on a daily basis. it was as if he stayed up really late at night coming up with a list of batshit crazy stuff to say the next day.
I think what really finished The Bell Curve for me was the silly argument that Asians score higher than white folks due to "cultural" differences, while white folks score higher than negroes due to genetic differences. It's either one or the other.
I don't recall anything of the sort in The Bell Curve. It did say that there is evidence that some of the difference between blacks and whites was genetic, but I don't remember it denying any genetic role on the Asian/white difference. What page was that on?
"A falling dollar, escalating bankruptcies, a meaningless quagmire killing countless and uncounted thousands - where does this put Bush on the bell curve?"
GWB "Say Turd, things are really lookihg glum for us right now. What the hell can we do? Those damn liberal bloggers on the Internets look into everything anymore."
KR: "I got an idea, sir? We'll send JimmyJeff over to have Andy Sullivan talk about the Bell Curve. That always gets that Atrios character stirred up and sidetracked."
I once knew a one-armed nigra pool player who could beat any one-armed white pool player you might care to match against him. He could, however, beat only about 45% of two-armed white pool players.
Lime Rickey
Since he's obviously a below average pool player, the only thing that makes sense at this point according to "Bell" is to cut off his other arm..
There is also very impressive work by Claude Steele and his colleagues showing that you can eliminate test score differences by changing people's expectations. So if you take similarly educated males and females and tell the females that males do better on the math test they are about to take, the females do worse. If you tell them there is no difference, they perform just as well with males. The same holds true for other kinds of tests with minorities. This is not to say that there are not individual differences in math abilities. But that the great majority of the variance in the 10-15 point difference in the overall curve can be accounted for by expectations. (Sorry for that last sentence. My 7th grade grammar teacher just rolled over in her gigantic pencil box.)
Steven J. Gould effectively rebutted every single assertion presented in The Bell Curve, 10 full years before the publication of the latter.
WoodyGuthriesGuitar
The Mismeasure of Man is a great book. It's too bad that to do justice to the topic even on a popular level you have to go way past the heads of our pundit class. Not that the facts, even stated in the simplest of terms, would divert them from their task of promoting racism and sexism. Even the phony rational for Bush War II, abundantly true and widly exposed stops them from repeating their scripted lies.
Sallyh, I think "g" for our news media, and sadly too for many at the once great BBC stands for "gullible".
Check this shit out, from the weekly HRC email update:
Take a look at these quotes from Rev. Falwell in an exchange with Tucker Carlson on MSNBC on August 5.
"But civil -- civil rights for all Americans, black, white, red, yellow, the rich, poor, young, old, gay, straight, et cetera, is not a liberal or a conservative value. It's an American value that I would think that we pretty much all agree on."
When Carlson said he "thought conservatives are always arguing against special rights for gays," Rev. Falwell said: "Well, housing and employment are not special rights. I think -- I think the right to live somewhere and to live where you please or to work where you please, as long as you're not bothering anybody else, is a basic right, not a -- not a special right."
He should debate Pat Robertson on national TV.
JM, If you look closely the post below this one says "More Sacrifice."
Some folks are capable of keeping more thoughts in their heads than one.
What page was that on?
The one I wiped my ass with.
Pretty much all of them, actually...
jm think of it as a thread buffet. you can sample from one, move on to another...
it was as if he stayed up really late at night coming up with a list of batshit crazy stuff to say the next day.
Used to do that in college. Of course, I was pretty much stoned all the time...
Janet--comes back to making a faulty argument with a faulty premise.
Sallyh | Email | Homepage | 08.27.05 - 12:05 pm | #
????
What exactly are you saying here? I mean, I agree that the way we apply the commonly used templates of race to different groups of people is often erroneous, but there clearly are some really large groups of humans (with admittedly fuzzy edges), who have acquired some cohesive sets of genetically determined (albeit mostly quite superficial) traits, presumably through several thousand to tens of thousands of years of relative genetic isolation. To me, that satisfies the condition of race being a gentetic construct, so could you clarify?
blerb | 08.27.05 - 12:09 pm | #
Interesting:
So far, DNAPrint has analyzed more than 10,000 samples at a cost of $219 per test. Clients learn what percentage of their ancestral DNA is from four broad population groups: Indo-European, sub-Saharan African, East Asian, or native American. About one-third of clients test as 100 percent from one of these groups; another third show statistically insignificant blending, and a final third show substantial mixtures. A second test can also break down the broad category of Indo-European ancestry into Northern European, Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, and South Asian subgroups. Other new tests may follow. If a third of the population is left out of the "race" data, what meaning does it have for us?
Also fun.
it was as if he stayed up really late at night coming up with a list of batshit crazy stuff to say the next day.
Used to do that in college. Of course, I was pretty much stoned all the time...
dave™©® | Email | Homepage | 08.27.05 - 12:37 pm | #
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i always figured newt was using something, but i could never figure out what. it would have to be some powerful stimulant that does not suppress the appetite.
Gordon, are those your Mother's Panties on your head?
Spinoza--did you ever try to duplicate Murray + Herrnstein's analyses? My sense of it was, my first years do better than this. If one were to write a proof for their statements, say, in the form of a truth table, each one of them would fail.
Whew! Did you ever wake up really early and then go back to sleep, only to fall into a deep, deep coma-like sleep? I can barely see now. Anyway, the money quote from the WaPO article Atrios posted below:
Compared to other post-World War Two presidents at this point in their second term, only Richard Nixon had a lower job approval rating and he was in the midst of the Watergate scandal, Gallup said. The others were all above 50 percent.
36%, bitches!
Then there's my all-time favorite ed psych statistic (though i can no longer remember its source):
in assessing differences among individual test scores on standardized achievement/placement exams, more than two thirds of ALL variance is accounted for by one, and only one variable: the Socio-Economic Status of any given student's family; and almost half of that variance is accounted for by one other single variable: whether or not the child's MOTHER attended any institution of higher learning...
most achievement tests are really nothing but reading/comprehension tests. children of parents who read to them regularly and often develop better attitudes towards reading, and therefore succeed more readily in this significant and totemic practice than do children who do not have the advantge of highly literate parents...especially mothers, in whose care most infants are most often...
I start doing a slow burn whenever I see this shit getting press yet again. I know from doing my own genealogy that a good number of my obstensibly "white" ancestors went through elaborate means to conceal their true origins, including changing their names and moving further West. For example, one ancestor went by his initials G.E. all his adult life because his birth name Grey Eagle would have been a dead giveaway and he would have been ostracized from the white community--or worse. And the rumor that his great-grandfather was black would send my grandfather into a towering rage. Now we know the truth of the matter and it's a good thing granddad passed on a dozen years ago or he might have a major fit of apoplexy.
Sully, Murray and Herrnstein don't take this into account. There are no bright lines between the races. There's been so much racial mixing in this country that these idiots fail to acknowledge and it annoys the crap out of me.
I swear I want to smack Sully silly, not for being the racist he is, but for being such an incredible IDIOT.
Chris Tucker--now I need brain bleach.
BTW, Monaghan wants to expand the idea of 'Catholic towns' all over the US. If only we had the venture capital, we'd be rich little fuckers.
Sallyh-
I and a friend played around with some of the numbers, but needed to hit the scotch when we saw how bad the stats were. Too bad Herrnstein died of that "blood infection," He was a student of Skinner's. Smart but arrogant. I once saw him turn beet red when someone called him on his bullshit.
Res Ipsa--while I celebrate in that figure, I'm also concerned that Chimpy needs an attack on the homeland. Or should I put my tinfoil hat on?
in assessing differences among individual test scores on standardized achievement/placement exams, more than two thirds of ALL variance is accounted for by one, and only one variable: the Socio-Economic Status of any given student's family; and almost half of that variance is accounted for by one other single variable: whether or not the child's MOTHER attended any institution of higher learning...
most achievement tests are really nothing but reading/comprehension tests. children of parents who read to them regularly and often develop better attitudes towards reading, and therefore succeed more readily in this significant and totemic practice than do children who do not have the advantge of highly literate parents...especially mothers, in whose care most infants are most often...
WoodyGuthriesGuitar
And note that they are talking about achievement or placement tests, which test the application of your "IQ," not the IQ score itself which comes from a different sort of test. So, regardless of IQ (if it were actually unbiased, which it is not), "nurture" has more influence on success.
Spinoza--I'm convinced that their research cannot legitimately be replicated, which, at least in the world I live in, is a criterion for validity.
I'm also concerned that Chimpy needs an attack on the homeland. Or should I put my tinfoil hat on?
He needs something, but the gods help us, it had better not be that.
The Barefoot Contessa is on. Do you ever make her recipes? They're all good -- and loaded with butter (that is why she is so chubby and happy).
res ipsa--anyone who uses butter in their cooking is good by me.
Sallyh, I've got my ALCOA chapeau firmly wedged on my head when it comes to another attack. As I told my father last night, the last time Bush took a long vacation, guess what happened?
(...wait for it)
9/11
Who knows what PDBs he's been ignoring this month?
Mr 40%:
President George W. Bush - Job Approval Ratings
Poll Date Approve Disapprove Spread
RCP Average 8/9 - 8/25 40.6% 56.0% -15.4%
CNN/USA Today/Gallup 8/22 - 8/25 40% 56% -16%
Rasmussen 8/22 - 8/24 46% 53% -7%
ARG 8/18 - 8/21 36% 58% -22%
SurveyUSA 8/12 - 8/14 41% 55% -14%
Harris** 8/9 - 8/16 40% 58% -18%
my gut feeling about why we havent been attacked again is that what bush is doing benefits al quaida, and they are afraid it would lead to america pulling out of iraq, or setting a definite timetable. of course, im not sure that al quaida is that centralized, and there are other groups, but there could be a general agreement.
My sainted mother use to say that the last real white person in this country was Martha Washington. When she died ole George started partying in the slave quarters and that was it.
Since he's obviously a below average pool player, the only thing that makes sense at this point according to "Bell" is to cut off his other arm..
bcf | 08.27.05 - 12:32 pm | #
Right. Or cut off one arm of the two-armed white pool players to even the march.
chris/tx--I think we can safely discount Rasmussen. Their methodologies are questionable at best.
Uh " ...match."
The Barefoot Contessa is on. Do you ever make her recipes?
Not her desserts, because I don't eat them.
Her salads are wonderful. Unlike Martha's recipes, Garten's turn out exactly as she says.
As far as butter goes, Paula Dean is the queen. Yowsa.
Good afternoon, fellow freethinkers.
Had Headline News on today and they were talking to this doctor whose sideline is dispensing the Morning After drug on-line,
He says he's providing a needed service.
Naturally, the MSM being what it is these days, HAD to show the other side.
Well, you had to see the beauty from the California Pro Life Fund. She made Karen Hughes look feminine by comparison. Blouse buttoned up to her neck, an ugly maroon and white polka dot scarf as a tie. She probably had a skirt down to her ankles.
I took one look at her and thought of what George Carlin said about nobody WANTING to fuck these losers in the FIRST place.
And her attitude - I thought "Look, you stupid self-righteous cow - you don't speak for me. It's not YOUR place to tell women that they have to have kids they don't want!"
Nerve of these anti-choice assholes!
...more than two thirds of ALL variance is accounted for by one, and only one variable: the Socio-Economic Status of any given student's family; and almost half of that variance is accounted for by one other single variable: whether or not the child's MOTHER attended any institution of higher learning...
Uh-oh. Does not bode well for my recent "quiz." Neither mummy nor daddy res went to college.
Sallyh - Yeah. I just like posting that one because it comes from Real Clear Politics, a right wing site with high traffic. Must kill them to have to update those shitty numbers for their boy. It is the "go to" site for wingers seeking poll numbers.
Terry C--as I said earlier, fighting TBC, fighting for reproductive rights, still. It's tiresome and old, and it annoys me that we're still having to do it.
this is completely off topic, but i used to know a pool player ( i dont know if he was a professional, he had other sidelines), who used the one handed bit to hustle people. he wouldnt even use the side of the table to steady his cue. on a related note, lee trevino used to beat people (who used regular golf clubs) with a hoe and a dr pepper bottle.
"...more than two thirds of ALL variance is accounted for by one, and only one variable: the Socio-Economic Status of any given student's family..."
--WoodyGuthriesGuitar
This reminds of when my youngest son enter second grade in a newly established magnet school program. I had volunteered to help in the classroom a couple of hours a week. One day the teacher was discussing the definition of words. One of the words was "garage." I was talking to her later about this word, and how someone who was seven years old would not know what a garage was.
A lot of these kids were raised in the inner-city. No garages, so why need to know what a garage was? Most probably, because the word would be on some achievement test.
This story has stuck in my mind for 13 years as if I experienced it yesterday.
res--no. There is a positive correlation between a mom's educational attainment and that of her kids, but remember: correlation is not causation.
he didn't mention anything about cotton growing cultures or sugar cane growing cultures though. i was kind of disappointed.
Olaf glad and big - What about corn?
Who knows what PDBs he's been ignoring this month?
Hey Hey, Texas Souffle,
Did you ignore the PDB today?
Good morning Moonbats!
Sallyh-My library has about a half a dozen books in response to "The Bell Curve." If I ever get my office desk cleared off, I may take at look at a few of them.
A lot of these kids were raised in the inner-city. No garages, so why need to know what a garage was? Most probably, because the word would be on some achievement test.
Why wouldn't kids who live in cities know what "garage" means? They've seen parking garages. They've seen houses with attached garages on television.
Fuck you, Haloscan!!!!
Terry C--as I said earlier, fighting TBC, fighting for reproductive rights, still. It's tiresome and old, and it annoys me that we're still having to do it.
Sallyh
And these women who support this anti-choice shit. I want to slap some sense into them!
Pilotfish for the patriarchy.
Besides everything else mentioned here, isn't it true that you can have a genetic throw back of up to eight generations. It seems to me that the smarts we are born with are a giant roll of the dice. Then, as WGG points out, so much depends on the home in which the child is reared. If the child is read to and books are considered an important part of the family's home life, it is only natural that any child will grow being a reader. Pity the home schooled.
Rule number 1. No tv in the bedroom.
Central--good morning! How was the fishing?
I've heard that soda bottle story. He must've had a hell of a backache after eighteen holes.
lee trevino used to beat people (who used regular golf clubs) with a hoe and a dr pepper bottle.
I understand the Dr. Pepper bottle, but what part did the ho' play?
Spinoza--are you implying that your office is, well, sloppy?
arghhh
res--no. There is a positive correlation between a mom's educational attainment and that of her kids, but remember: correlation is not causation.
You know, I have never done well on those tests. EVER. My parents, to their credit, always encouraged me to read and do well in school, though.
You know, my dad was a very, very bright guy. He was the valedictorian of his high school, which was one of the very prestigious science high schools here -- the ones you have to test into. But he didn't go to college. Do you know why? Because he was poor. Where did he go? The army, of course (Korea, two tours). He could have gone to MIT in a snap. When I asked him why he didn't he said, "College was not an option for someone as poor as I was." The plan was for him to get out and for the army to pay for school. But when he got out he just went straight to work. Never made it to college. That made me very sad when he died.
Sallyh-
Let's just say it has more fractal dimensions than the coast of England.
i shouldve said rake. but then i wouldve got elizabethan puns.
res ipsa--anyone who uses butter in their cooking is good by me.
Sallyh - I'm starting to worry - I only have like 12-14lbs left in the freezer. What if I run out?
Spinoza--and you find stuff how?
36%, bitches!
Billmon links to:
Venezuela Chavez's Approval Rating At 70.5%
Suck it, George!
Auntie GWPDA--run out to Trader Joe's? Pretty cheap there.
BTW, I'm an unsalted butter fan. Sweet butter rocks.
When I started school, we had to take a pictorial test, probably for placement in a track. The example problem was a series of 4-5 black and white pictures and the test administrator (our vice principal) told us to circle the wreath. For some reason, I had no idea what a wreath was, so I didn't know what to circle and he was in front of a room full of kids and didn't point it out to us either. Mystified, I took the test, being way too shy to ask.
Neither of my parents finished high school.
I have "only" a high school diploma (1970). Neither of my kids went on to college.
None of us are dumb. My IQ was measured years ago at around 145.
College might be overrated. Chimpy went to college, most of these right wing "pundits" went to college....
"Why wouldn't kids who live in cities know what 'garage' means?"
--monica_nyc
I should have said "the projects." Row after row of rundown apartments with no garages.
Speaking as a Caucasian, it seems to me that, if the general argument is for the purpose of how do we achieve a higher plane of civilization, well, frankly, any ethnic group that produced the Nazis should shut the fuck up for about 500 years, shouldn't it? And after that maybe we can bring it back up?
BTW, I'm an unsalted butter fan. Sweet butter rocks.
Sallyh - They have Irish butter at Trader Joe's you know. And not too far away, albeit in Tempe, the Arizona Cow Council will sell direct....
Sallyh - I use the femur of my dissertation advisor as a divining rod.
res--my father in law has a similar story. He wanted to be a veterinarian, and he is certainly bright enough, but poverty sent him to the military and then to work.
How was the fishing?
Good, for a change. I've got about ten# of catfish filets in the freezer, and I hope to double that by next weekend.
When I started school, we had to take a pictorial test, probably for placement in a track. The example problem was a series of 4-5 black and white pictures and the test administrator (our vice principal) told us to circle the wreath. For some reason, I had no idea what a wreath was, so I didn't know what to circle and he was in front of a room full of kids and didn't point it out to us either. Mystified, I took the test, being way too shy to ask.
Janet
I remember that track shit in high school.
They had these stupid things called "quality points"
It meant that if you were in track 3, even if your marks were good, forget about getting honors. Your quality points didn't count for as much as the track 1 and 2 people.
Sallyh - I'm starting to worry - I only have like 12-14lbs left in the freezer. What if I run out?
What the heck are you doing with all that butter, GWPDA?
Auntie GWPDA--the Kerrygold is delicious, but we keep it for table use. I haven't tried Pflugra yet (central European model), but just may have to.
Arizona Cow Council
i dont know why this is funny to me.
any ethnic group that produced the Nazis should shut the fuck up for about 500 years, shouldn't it?
Yeah, but why blame an entire group for a few assholes?
res--really, if you think about it, it's not that much butter. Best you could get is ~20 cakes.
I'm down to my last 4 lbs and getting a bit nervous myself.
What the heck are you doing with all that butter, GWPDA?
res ipsa loquitur - Everybody needs a hobby.
Central--how do you prepare catfish? Just curious, as we don't really have catfish in SoCal.
Well, my dad didn't finish college, my mother stopped at 8th grade, and none of my brothers went to college.
A favorite "reverse" cultural IQ question is to ask upper middle class high school students the difference between hay and straw. I have had entire classes fail.
BTW how much butter to saute an Xtian baby?
I see that 1,000 prisoners were released from Abu Ghraib this morning. Just wait for the glowing *testimonials* from a select few gushing about how well they were treated during their stay at the resort.
Never mind the cell-block where the unlucky ones were tortured to death. They can't talk.
Catfish? Cornmeal dredge, quick saute'. Like sand dabs.
Afternoon all.
Charles Murray is a racist pig.
Just saying......
Spinoza--Xtian baby tends to be fatty, so you don't want to overdo it on the butter.
BTW, I don't know the difference between straw and hay (city kid).
What five things are always in your 'fridge? Mine:
1) Parmesan
2) Lemons
3) Pelligrino
4) Butter
5) Nail polish
That made me very sad when he died.
res ipsa loquitur
Res, don't forget that college was not prerequisite for getting any kind of a decent job back. The plain fact is that most people didn't go to college. Mr. QL dropped out after a couple of terms after winning a full scholarship and beginning at 16 when he graduated from high school. He still managed to rise to be in the top 5% of earners. This was not uncommon back in the fifties and sixties. Neither of my parents went to college yet mom was an editor at John Wiley and dad an artist and a published poet.
OT, but did anybody see the Bill
Maher show last night?
Cindy Sheehan was great.
And I now have a huge, huge
crush on Eve Ensler.
Wotta doll!
Central--do you share that catfish with the 4 legged members of the family?
oh oh. straw, hay. hmm. is there a time limit? maybe hay is baled straw? guessing frantically.
A favorite "reverse" cultural IQ question is to ask upper middle class high school students the difference between hay and straw.
The similarities are that you can make hay while knocking down strawmen.
And the turkey is in both the hay and the straw, I believe.
Res--only 5?
Eggs
Butter
Milk
Coke Zero (it's Monsieur's)
At least 3 kinds of cheese
What five things are always in your 'fridge? Mine:
Champagne
Caviare
Butter
Cheese
Green Chile
Sallyh ... Do you remember Craig Claiborne? He used to do this feature in the NYT back in the day ... He'd got to a market and snag some hapless soul with an empty cart. He'd say, "I will come to your house and make you dinner with what you have onhand. Then, I will tell you how to stock your larder so that you can always put together a meal."
These people would have him come home and the guy would be making a lot of dinners with canned tuna and spaghetti. He was always horrified when the people had only onion and garlic powder for them to work with.
melior - i was just pleasantly shocked by those Falwell comments you posted. i remember a few years ago seeing an interview on tv with a gay couple that was attending Falwell's church so the folks there could actually get to know what a gay couple is like. i have to wonder if that had anything to do with this surprising apparent progresivism (if that is a word) on Falwell's part.
However, I'm still waiting for him to apologize to me and all the other feminists in this country for his hate speech about us.
on a related note, lee trevino used to beat people (who used regular golf clubs) with a hoe and a dr pepper bottle.
Rule 1. never accept a bet when you can not possibly lose that bet.
Someone told me that Blue Enclave golfers and pool players are not as good as Red Heartland golfers and pool players.
I'm still waiting for him to apologize to me and all the other feminists in this country for his hate speech about us.
Texn Embsd by Bush
Me, too!
What IS their problem with strong women?
Hey Hey, Texas Souffle,
Did you ignore the PDB today?
Good morning Moonbats!
Central Scrutinizer | Email | 08.27.05 - 12:58 pm | #
You hear Franken this week on the subject? Responding to an incredible lie Rush is telling, that Clinton 'only met personally with Tenet twice,' Franken cites a WP article from '98, I think, about how Clinton met twice a week with T. or T.'s second-in-command.
And how Clinton, according to the article, asked for Tenet to come up with an improved version of the PDB, because the ones he was getting were filled with a lot of stuff he'd already read in the newspapers.
While saying this, Franken can't help cracking up, because, could the differences be any starker between the omnivorous infohound Clinton and this incurious dipshit we have now?
A favorite "reverse" cultural IQ question is to ask upper middle class high school students the difference between hay and straw.
When I am feeling particularly evil, I like to ask what kind of birds come out of the eggs that hatch at the beginning of the Partridge Family show. You would be amazed at how many get that one wrong. People who didn't see it are more likely to get it right.
res ipsa--I have several of his cookbooks. But yes, I'd be willing to go to someone's house and pull something together with whatever was on hand.
in your case, I'd skip the nail polish
fridge:
eggs
capers
milk
parmesan cheese
smart balance or something similar
Sallyh,
Fried in corn flour, grilled, steamed in onions and butter (camp food), but my favorite by far is smoked.
They're hard to keep lit though. 
Sally-
Hay is nutritious; straw is used for bedding (it's the stalk of the plant).
It just shows how culturally bound we all are. It took me years to realize the difference between Mr. Spock and Dr. Spock.
Hay is what cows eat. That's why the baby Jesus slept in a manger filled with straw.
Sallyh ... Does he like that Coke Zero? I don't think it tastes like anything. Maybe it's better w/lemon.
What kind of cheese?
Sallyh,
RE:I don't think you could make race a meaningful concept in genetic terms. For example, cystic fibrosis ....
First, we have to define what 'race' means. I would say that what 'race' means is a pretty large group of people who share a common line of descent that is highly associated with a constellation of genetic traits. It is true, than, that you cannot meaningfully define it with respect to just one genetic polymorphism, like CF, especially if it is encoded on the chromosomal DNA, because genes like that diffuse through narrow bottlenecks of outbreeding too easily to be representative of the overall line of descent. But that does not mean that these lines of descent don't exist, and that they don't imply some pretty strong statistics with respect to your overall genetic constitution when all polymorphisms are examined. In terms of tracing these lines of descent, the only really reliablr marker is of course the mitochondrial genome, because it's difference map is not muddied by the confounding factor of sexual recombination.
If you look at mtDNA, however, in at least some cases, you can identify lines of descent that do in fact correspond pretty well to groups that we would culturally define as races, But just not in the case of Africans. They are more deverse in terms of lines of descent than we are different fronm their average. But that doesn't mean that there is no such thing as genetically definable race, just that there are a bunch of different races inside Africa, that is if you choose to draw the arbitrary line of race at a point that distinguishes between Africans and Indo-Europeans.
Does that make sense?
Straw is room.
Hay is board.
No Child Left Behind is based on bringing the test scores of all children up every year until they are perfect 100% every year. This administration is riddled with people who think Murray is God, thus believing that blacks are genetically incapable of achieving intellectual equality. Uh...anyone else see the disconnect? Rovians are counting on Blacks to fail to get to 100%, the impossible standard, thereby accomplishing 2 treasured goals--proving Murray right and proving public schools are failures.
Worst President ever.
res--he thinks Coke Zero tastes more like the real thing. I wouldn't know, since I don't drink any colas, diet or otherwise.
I always have cheddar, Swiss and Parmesan on hand, and normally Monterey Jack, usually with jalapenos in it, as well as cream cheese. Which reminds me, I only have 1 bar of cream cheese left.
Hey! I was right.
Res, don't forget that college was not prerequisite for getting any kind of a decent job back.
QL...True. Very true. My dad wound up doing pretty well for himself (and us). He worked for someone else only for about ten years and then started his own businesses. He always regretted not going, though.
Terry C - as a business woman working in Dallas, I think they are easily threatened by strong willed women bec most of the leaders wives in this town act demure and quiet when out with their husbands - even the wives who are lawyers, doctors, and high level execs act like this. then when i get in interesting discussions of politics or economics with the husbands i feel guilty about their wives just standing there uninvolved. when i was in my 20's and much thinner i felt even worse about it - afriad the wives would think i was hitting on their husbands. i just had no interest in the conversations about people magazine that the women were often engaged in.
"Squeaky" Johnson once again proves he's a fucking idiot. He posts today:
Palestinian Groundhog Day
It’s like the movie Groundhog Day; you wake up every morning and it’s the same day, you say and do the same things over and over, and nothing ever changes: Bush puts pressure on Palestinians after pullout.
He can't have seen the movie.
Also, his "Pajamas Media Information Site" is up www.pajamasmedia.com and he proves what a lame and bad writer he is.
Blerb--indeed, your argument does make sense, and I appreciate your stating it.
Oh,
and of course as a corrolarry to what I just said about race as I defined it, it is in fact meaningless to make any generalizations about the intellectual potential of "blacks" as a group, because that group represents a number of different races, by any genetic definition that would distinguish that group of groups from "whites".
Texn Embsd--it's like talking with my mother and her friends. Seriously, I don't need to know how much real estate on the shores of Hilton Head costs, or whose son (with the help of his parents) just purchased a $3M home, or whose husband left them the most money, etc.
blerb--that would be logically consistent with your argument, and I could tell that you weren't going in that direction.
On the other hand, Blue Enclave stickball players have the edge over Red Heartland stickball players.
Hello atriots.
been out all day helping out at my local Oxfam and dress buying...
did I miss anything?
Maybe the authors of The Bell Curve will experience the same fate as the author of The Bell Jar.
in your case, I'd skip the nail polish
I always have enough and variety enough for something to be put together. I always have (not in the fridge) shallots, onions, and garlic. I have a good spice selection. I go to the green market twice a week so there's always some sort of fresh veggie or fruit.
The nail polish gets less "glumpy" in the fridge.
hmm is stickball that thing they play in nyc? (still smarting from failure to pass crucial straw hay question)
hmm wouldnt compare them (one is dead) to sylvia plath.
Going to the farmers market in a moment. Wonder if the local apples are in yet?
hmm is stickball that thing they play in nyc? (still smarting from failure to pass crucial straw hay question)
That's ok, NTodd actually made his pants out of hay, and they got eaten by his pony.
There are areas where i do accept race as a construction. When one is talking about access to health care, employment, housing, education and military service, I think it's imperative to examine the inequalities, but these are social constructions, not biological ones.
OT, but the prodigal cat returneth!
That's ok, NTodd actually made his pants out of hay, and they got eaten by his pony.
yeah but he did that on purpose.
I haven't tried Pflugra yet
I have, and it's delicious. Unfortunately, the Trader Joe's here is on the other side of Ann Arbor, so I don't get there very often at all.
Do love that place though.
...he thinks Coke Zero tastes more like the real thing.
Coke Zero tastes like Diet Coke. Diet Coke with Splenda™ tastes like the real thing!
I've decided NTodd will not get the purple Sparkle Pony I got in my Happy Meal the other day.
That means...a trip to Target.
hmm is stickball that thing they play in nyc? (still smarting from failure to pass crucial straw hay question)
pretzelattack | 08.27.05 - 1:25 pm | #
It used to be played in just about every sizable Northeast Coast Blue Enclave city. Couldn't use regular baseballs, because of parked cars, house windows, etc.
OT: Bomb kills US soldier in Afghanistan
One US soldier was killed and four more were wounded in a bomb attack in southeastern Afghanistan, the US military said.
The soldiers were patrolling in the restive southeastern province of Paktika ahead of parliamentary elections next month when a roadside bomb hit their armoured vehicle, a statement on Saturday said.
"One US service member was killed and four were wounded when an improvised explosive device struck their up-armored high-mobility wheeled vehicle near Khayr Kot district, Paktika province on Friday," the statement said.
...did I miss anything?
Just Simels asking if he missed anything...
So it a partridge that comes out of the egg at the beginning of the Patridge Family? Or a quail?
I feel that I should know.
dave--not being a soda drinker, all these particulars confuse me.
All I know is, do not run out of diet cola.
steve -
A friend of mine was just talking about Eve Ensler's appearance on Maher last night. She loved it too.
Ensler is Dylan McDermott's step-mother and she was in his life from about the age of 10 years on. He credits her with his enormous respect and love for women.
...we don't really have catfish in SoCal.
Most all supermarkets carry (farm raised) catfish now.
And if you're not squeamish, check out the Asian and/or Phillipine stores - they probably have tanks full of live catfish!
5 things in my fridge
milk
wine
garlic
left over pizza
dave--I see the frozen filets, and I've been to the markets where they have them live, but there's been a question of cleanliness in a number of cases.
ql ... That's only 4!
Two kinds of wine?
...not being a soda drinker, all these particulars confuse me.
I keep close tabs (no pun intended!) on it, since I'm not supposed to be drinking sugar. I prefer Diet Coke to Diet Pepsi, except in the case of Diet Cherry Pepsi, which I prefer to Diet Cherry Coke. Diet Coke with Splenda reminds me more of the "original" Coke than Diet Coke (with aspartame). However, I'd rather have a Diet Dr. Pepper than --
[sallyh]ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...[/sallyh]
Diet Coke with Splenda™ tastes like the real thing!
I can't find that stuff anywhere. I find the Zero and regular DC, but not the Splenda stuff.
Couldn't use regular baseballs, because of parked cars, house windows, etc.
Lime Rickey
A Spaldeen bll was used and someone usually had an old mop handle for a bat. If an old one wasn't available, someone would get a whupping that night for destroying his mom's new mop.
Jenny from the Blog:
I did not know that. Interesting.
In any case, I thought Ensler
was just the coolest. Apart from
being whipsmart and funny, I
thought she was really sexy --
kind of like an older goth chick
but with warmth. I can't explain it.
I see the frozen filets...
Frozen!?!?! 'Round here, Safeway, Albertson's and Raley's all have fresh!
Anyway, frankly, catfish isn't high on my list of things to eat... kinda muddy tasting.
Okay. 5 spices you cannot live without.
Mine are:
Whole black pepper
Garlic cloves and crushed garlic
Cinnamon
Paprika
Sesame seeds
bll=ball
but you all knew that.
Res, those are the only things reliably in the fridge. Frequently there are bacon and eggs, parmesian cheese, greens and onions kosher salami.
dave--Monsieur likes Diet Coke with lime, but it's not always available.
Let me get this straight: Coke Zero is not the same as Diet Coke with Splenda?
I can't find that stuff anywhere.
I've noticed a few places out of it now and then. They might still be test marketing it.
Okay. 5 spices you cannot live without.
Tarragon
Red chile (coarse ground)
Basil
Garlic
Black pepper
curry
A Spaldeen bll was used and someone usually had an old mop handle for a bat. If an old one wasn't available, someone would get a whupping that night for destroying his mom's new mop.
ql in ny | Email | Homepage | 08.27.05 - 1:39 pm | #
Seems like different cities might use different balls. At one time we sawed balls in half, and played halfball. I still don't know why.
They were hard as hell to hit.
I realized just now that I've always sorta avoided Ensler because the concept of the Vagina Monologues was just so *of the time* and turned me off somehow. Like I was being force-fed something way too PC.
I refused to see Hair on Broadway for the same reason. By the time it came out I thought it was massively uncool. So I missed a lot of stuff because I was a counter-culture snob.
I'll have to take a second look at Ensler, though, she sounds cool.
"I can't find that stuff anywhere. I find the Zero and regular DC, but not the Splenda stuff."
It may be in some of the stores, and you just didn't see it. The splenda laced stuff has a yellow stain sort of a mark on the side of the can and packaging, and otherwise looks the same. Kind of nuanced.
5 spices
nutmeg
red pepper
thyme
rosemary
basil
Believe it or not, I used to cook.
Let me get this straight: Coke Zero is not the same as Diet Coke with Splenda?
Coke Zero uses aspartame. According to my brother-in-law (who drives a Coke truck), they also reformulated it in order to give it a taste closer to "real" Coke. To me, it just tastes like regular old Diet Coke, which is fine with me, considering how they fucked up their last reformulation.
But Diet Coke with Splenda™ uses Splenda, which has a more natural sugar flavor, instead of aspartame. I've noticed Diet 7-Up is also using Splenda now, so they probably all will, at some point.
Diet Coke Primer:
Demystifying Diet Coke
Coke Zero = Coke Classic formula
Diet Coke = New Coke formula
A Spaldeen ball was used...
Is that a colloquialism for Spalding?
5 spices:
1) Black peppercorns
2) Nutmeg
3) Paprika
4) Cloves
5) Cinnamon
Is salt a spice? I am all about salt. Kosher salt. HUGE Sicilian sea salt. French sea salt. Salt. Salt. Salt.
Herbs (fresh only):
1) Parsley (Italian)
2) Dill
3) Sage
4) Thyme
5) Rosemary
5 Spices:
Garlic/Pesto (I'm cheating)
Curry
Cinnamon
Fennel
Cayenne
Well at least the Iranians approve of the Iraqi constitution.
I refused to see Hair on Broadway for the same reason. By the time it came out I thought it was massively uncool.
Surprisingly, the songs hold up really well. I've always loved "The Flesh Failures" and "Frank Mills" ("...he resembled George Harrison of the Beatles...")!
I could tell that you weren't going in that direction.
Well, I hope nobody gets the idea from what I said that I'm defending The Bell Curve. It's a malevolent, malodorous bit of trash. The effrontery of suggesting that social conditions in this country have progressed to a point that you could meaningfully test any hypothesis about nature vs. nurture with respect to the observed differences between "whites" and "blacks" is just stunning -- especially coming from a couple of rich white men.
If I were ever put in a position of power to do so, the first thing I would institute socially would be a massive campaign of aggressive, early intervention in underprivileged inner-city homes. I am certain that if all those poor black toddlers got the same kind of obsessive attention to the fostering of their intellectual development that all the rich, white ones do, these observed differences would vanish, and what's more, with the cycle of self-sustaining underachievment broken, the need for any special intervention would disappear just as quickly, like by the next generation. It would be an epochal effort to do so, on the same scale perhaps as this pointless Iraq war, but I think the long-term payoff in terms of productivity for our society as a whole would greatly outweigh the initial investment.
With resprect to the idea of race, I was just saying that I think our culturally defined concept of race is, while dramatically oversimplified, not completely at odds with the complex genetic reality of human descent, which I think you understood.
I just don't like the idea of such a malignant idea getting refuted with an overgeneralization that can be attacked as a straw man.
Herbs: tarragon, basil, oregano, rosemary, mint
Spices: nutmeg, cinnamon, cumin, black pepper, cardamon
5 spice:
Black pepper
Cinnamon
Allspice
Sichuan peppercorn
cayenne pepper
n'est ce pas?
Is that a colloquialism for Spalding?
Max Planck
Quite possibly. It was a small pink squishy ball. Really cheap, and never lasted too long. Maybe that's why Lime Ricky remembers playing with half a ball.
Why does that graph sound really, really dirty?
Dave -
I liked some of the music - you couldn't help being exposed to it 'cause it was everywhere! Haven't heard those tunes in a really long time, though if you say they hold up that's enough for me. ha!
Oh, I get it.
5 essential spices:
black pepper
black cardamom
cumin
allspice
nutmeg
5 essential herbs:
basil
terragon
marjoram
rosemary
parsley
Red pepper/chile I don't count, because that is a fruit, but I couldn't live without that either.
Hello, creatures of the afternoon. What up? We're cleaning out our spice racks?
Pimple balls were preferred in my neighborhood. All balls had to be rubber, of course.
blerb--i had no sense that you were anything but critical of TBC.
You know, kids, whenever I get
depressed of late (which, as you
can imagine, is fairly often given
what I read in the papers) I just
mosey on over to the Flying Spaghetti
Monster site, and crack myself up.
I'll sit there cackling insanely
in front of my monitor, thinking
about His Noodly Appendage, and I
just feel better.
I mean it.....
LR - but there are differing qualities of rubber. But hey, I'm 55, and trying to remember back 45 years ago. My kids grew up in the burbs and played softball.
blerb-
I agree with Sallyh-no problems with what you said. There is some excellent research showing that the development of languages tracks genetic differences, e.g.,
Cavalli-Sforza LL, "Genes, peoples, and languages." Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1997; 94: 15: 7719-24.
Most of the Murray & Herrnstein arguments are "Us against Them." They are using race as a stalking horse so they can hold onto power and money.
Hello again, peeps. What'd I miss?
Terry C - as a business woman working in Dallas, I think they are easily threatened by strong willed women bec most of the leaders wives in this town act demure and quiet when out with their husbands - even the wives who are lawyers, doctors, and high level execs act like this. then when i get in interesting discussions of politics or economics with the husbands i feel guilty about their wives just standing there uninvolved. when i was in my 20's and much thinner i felt even worse about it - afriad the wives would think i was hitting on their husbands. i just had no interest in the conversations about people magazine that the women were often engaged in.
Texn Embsd by Bush
I've never dumbed down for any man and I'm too old to start now.
If I ever meet someone, he'd better be able to accept my independence and outspokenness.
Kid Charlemagne--thanks for the link! I feel more informed now
bll=ball
but you all knew that.
ql in ny | Email | Homepage | 08.27.05 - 1:41 pm | #
Bull!
I tried reading "Mein Kampf" years ago.
COuldn't finish it. Awful - badly written, rambling garbage.
Same thing with TBC.
To quote Blackadder:
"Utter crap!"
Lurk...
Lurk...
I tried reading "Mein Kampf" years ago.
You should have read the Classic Comic version.
Other things a kitchen should never be without:
Red wine
Soy sauce
Vinegars (minimum in my kitchen is red wine, white, balsamic, and raspberry)
Lea + Perrins Worcestershire sauce
Olive oil
Vegetable oil
Lemon juice
Why are we talking about it again?
flory, Business Manager
I guess because Bush and his cohorts are such believers in what it preaches.
Them being Repugnicans and all....
Talk about your bell curve.
Goddess I hope there is no trouble in Crawford today.
LR - but there are differing qualities of rubber. But hey, I'm 55, and trying to remember back 45 years ago. My kids grew up in the burbs and played softball.
ql in ny | Email | Homepage | 08.27.05 - 1:58 pm | #
Pimple balls were hollow, and easily cut in half. Every Northeast city had their own crazy rules, too.
ql--if there is trouble, it won't be the doing of those at Camp Casey.
Other things a kitchen should never be without:
Sardines
Bacon
Saltines
Tomato sauce
Black olives
evaporated milk
hey Spinoza, Mer beat you on the new thread!
Break time.....
See you guys again in a few....
Herbs: garlic, garlic, gar..., basil, tarragon, rosemary, parsley and cilantro. And sage and thyme.
Spices: black pepper, cumin, cinnamon, red pepper, curry
I have a LONG post on Lynn, the Pioneer Fund, and IQ, if anyone's interested.
Bush and his supporters make me believe that there just MAY have been some bugs in Darwin's stuff!
Goddess I hope there is no trouble in Crawford today.
As someone there said, from under what rock did that thing crawl?
Ewwwwwwwww.
TJ, what's the latest? How are you doing?
Red wine : 5+ decent bottles on hand in the house at all times, a few cases of the good stuff in the garage. Also have 2-3 bottles of white. I Try to have a pinot, a zinfandel, a cab, a chardonnay, and some kind of viognier/gevurtz on hand at all times, as well as a bottle of bubbly, just in case. Also have some stout, some IPA, and some pilsner.
Soy sauce: both the thin and black varieties, also hoisin sauce, oyster sauce, fish sauce and black beans.
Vinegars : cheap balsamic, good balsamic, rice, sherry, red wine, and pear
Oils: Extra virgin olive, plain and white truffle-infused, soybean, sesame, and peanut (essential for top-notch stirfry).
Lea + Perrins Worcestershire sauce: have some, but don't use it all that much
Lemons: Meyer, from the tree out front. Also always have several limes in the house.
herbs growing in the garden:
rosemary, dill, thyme(5 varieties), marjoram 92 varieties), oregano(3 varieties), terragon, sage, chives, parsley, mint (3 varieties)
spices in the cabinet: you name it, I got it. It's getting kind of ridiculous.....
And I also always have fresh ginger, garlic, cilantro, and scallions in the fridge. Galangal, lemon grass, and kaffir lime leaves I keep frozen.
Did Cindy take a shit yet today? I haven't seen the latest news reports. My RSS feed has a new headline each time she blows her nose.
Biggest media whore of all time.
in the refrigerator: cold mixed with baloney, rubber bands, crumpled wax paper bonnets, fat goose legs and special jellies ignited by the warmth of the room.
Texn Embsd--it's like talking with my mother and her friends. Seriously, I don't need to know how much real estate on the shores of Hilton Head costs, or whose son (with the help of his parents) just purchased a $3M home, or whose husband left them the most money, etc.
Sallyh
-----------------
Sallyh - You left out the most maddeningly vacuous topic of all - the sizes of various women's diamonds. I have come out of business meetings here in Dallas and had women my own age (40's) comment on how many carets they think some other woman's ring had. This is particularly a hot topic in light of the trend of husbands buying newer and bigger ones as anniversary presents.
I was thinking more about this last night, especially as pertains Murray and classical liberalism.
The problem seems to be with the group emphasis. If the question was posed by someone who believed in group competition, and group selection, then perhaps it would be relevant that one group has overall a better IQ than another group (ignoring criticism of IQ tests right now for this argument), if IQ was posited as having greater overall fitness, and thus the group (ignoring all other factors of fitness). One might assert that they would over time prosper more than the other group, like some dry academic analysis of varieties of beetle. To Murray, such natural trends would be considered progress.
There's a few problems with this - The focus on IQ at the exclusion of other factors. The limiting of group identification to a largely illusory racial stock.
Let's take IQ. To my knowledge, IQ is not a factor in college admissions. They look at grades, they look at test scores, they look at overall academic involvement, they look at essay, but I'm unaware of any college that uses IQ tests. I've taken an IQ test, and not much of it seemed to translate into skills for academic success. The kids who work hard, have their priorities right, who have an acceptable level of intellectual ingenuity (IQ?), these kids are at the top of the admissions list, not necessarily the kids with the highest IQ.
As for group identification, none of this research by Murray would be meaningful at all until and when they were balanced with other classes of groups - i.e. men and women (they've got this); rich, middle-class and poor; religion; sexuality; etc. What would it do to Murray's results if there was an advantage for homosexuals by a few IQ points? Would he publicize that, and describe it as progress?
Still, I only bring that up because Murray is a professed and obsessional classical liberal. If so, group and collectivist identification ought not be emphasized. And Murray would ultimately say he's not trying to emphasize group, but just showing what's wrong with affirmative action, because he brings resentment, due to false claims that all people are equal.
But, here he clearly thinks of people in collectivist terms, divided by sex and race. Because he does so, he misses the point. We don't argue that all people are perfectly equal in every possible inborn aptitute or talent. If you're arguing that, drop it. By sayign all people are equal, we're saying are worthy of equal dignity, rights, and opportunity to participate and succeed in society. We don't say this because we think everyone was exactly equal in attributes; indeed, if it was shown that everyone was not equal in a particular attribute, like IQ, this would underscore even more for egalitarian peoples that we don't lionize IQ to the point that it would become a barrier and unequally select from the population those who are worthy to go on and continue further growth at the university.
Taking a more conservative argument, we are doing affirmative action to make up for past barriers that had nothing to do with merit, but with prejudice based upon racial stock. These barriers were severe violations of our belief in the inherent equal dignity (not attributes) of all people, and so we have put them in place to reverse that situation. It's not meant to last forever, or we will have a separate problem (of group and collectivism overwhelming our democracy). But it is clearly there as a remedy for past abuses of the very tenets of classical liberalism (perhaps this is too paternal an approach for classical liberalists, who perhaps should favor just a lawsuit settlement that pays off the victims, but that's not going anywhere).
As for kids with resentment at the university, it's BS. As Murray himself mentions, within each group there are people who are at the overall inter-group tops and bottom. The only difference is the aggregation within the group (in terms of IQ). If this is the case, then how is any student to feel justified in their resentment, since they know not which of the black students may have benefited from the affirmative action policies, and according to Murray we're probably only talking about a handful of students at each university who would not belong according to his statistical analyses. Because the divide is not that wide, and Murray himself would admit that many if not most of the black and female students accepted to the university would fall into the acceptable range of his analyses. So the resentment card is bullshit (though, the resentment card in the workplace is harder to reconcile, because smaller units and more personal awareness of the participants).
The resentment card at universities is even further bullshit because why would you have resentment if you got into the college?
Are their non-students walking around the campus who didn't get in glaring at women and blacks?
Are blacks given better grades because of affirmative action, and that's why there is resentment at the university? No.
Are blacks given preference for promotions at the university? No. Noone is really fighting for promotion, per se, like in the workplace (exceptions noted).
Where is this resentment at the university? Certainly not with anyone not getting in. But maybe they're mad that their buddy didn't get in, but how could you possibly know, at the scale of university admissions, whether your buddy was even in the running, regardless of taking cultural and social population balance into account?
You can't.
Now, in the workplace, the resentment card is obvious to see.
obviously, none of you read the book. why are there so many threads on eschaton devoted to books none of the respondents have read? is atrios allergic to primary sources or just lazy and shallow?
About fighting the same battles over and over again, read "The Black Cottage" by Robert Frost. (And keep an eye on those bees.)
I remeber the HOT jewish girl with black air and flashing brown eyes that sat next to me in Mathematics for Physicists . She seemed to be asleep throught the first five or six sessions while I frantically tried to copy what the instructor wrote on the board and listen to what he was saying... and then she came alive and pointed out an error the instuctor had made on the black board, which was also in the textbook...the instructor had written the textbook, BTW. The first test she finished in 10 minutes flat with a perfect score. I got a C in the course, barely, with some pleading on my part. I am white bread plain vanilla genetically. That is my Bell Curve research.
it's like this. minorities are too stupid to manage their own oil reserves. aryans are needed to handle it for them. and since they're not so bright to begin with, they don't even mind being put in internment camps.
next book scheduled for release: christians are smarter than muslims.
aryans are needed to handle it for them.
aryans? the most populous muslim country is indonesia, whose population is ASIAN ie the ethnicity that 'bell curve' supposedly exalts! if you can't be bothered to read the book, at least get your caricatures straight.
Good discussion so far.
I would recommend interested parties start with the very well-done Wikipedia section on "Race and Intelligence". Good general discussion and wonderful links to most of the relevant source documents.
Speaking of which, be sure to read (yes, READ) Murray's essay. Also, you MUST read Rushton and Jensen's summary of the last 30 years research on the issue (linked off Wiki's references in the Jensen entry).
All that homework aside, the big question is "What If?". What if male/female and white/black IQ differentials at the high end DO exist and CANNOT be readily eliminated? What if?
Affirmative action for high IQ positions? Female mathematicians at Harvard? How're those going to work in a "what if" world?
What if the racial differential is, as may be feared, substantial across all IQ levels and cannot be reduced by "soft" social action (Head Start, AA, etc.)? Are we looking at something like forced intermarraige down the road? If not, how are we ever going to deal with the problem? Can we hide the problem from scrutiny or discussion?
What if?
williak
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