I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
ha
With peak oil on the horizon, there may be no other alternative.
oh well second again
Since most of New Orleans needs to be rebuilt, what are the odds of light rail being added?
That was a joke. This white house is all oil men. Ain't gonna happen.
well, NO did have a couple of running trolley lines.
Sprawl must be addressed and land use must be improved before a light rail system will work in most areas.
A gas tax would provide the money for mass transit and is a logical financial plan.
Politically, you're right Atrios. It's become the third rail of politics. It can't be done by anyone who wants to stay in office.
What if there were a simple web site that posted the REAL COST of gas in various localites that included highway costs, environmental cost, health cost, so people could see what driving is really costing us?
Garsh Atrios!
This serves as a bit of a haymaker to your previous post. Feeling a bit bi-polar this afternoon?
I just don't think "gas tax for transit" is workable, and I'm pessimistic about there really being enough political demand for sensible transit systems.
Since the tax is a flat percentage - the rise in gas prices has already created an unexpected increase in revenue. Tax increases aren't even necessary; maintaining the current tax rate on gas would be one way to fund *new transportation projects. Of course - there will certainly be efforts to cut the gas tax.
gas tax is per gallon, not a percentage . rising gas prices quite likely will lead to falling revenues
Los Angeles is the wrong density. And fairly evenly spread out over very large distances. Large grid cities are difficult to add mass-transit to. Cities built around dense focal points scattered throughout like Boston do much better.
Vinyl Siding is an evil pox on the land that blights everything downwind and makes the soil unusable for generations.
It also comes in a lot of ugly pastel colors.
Los Angeles is one of the best candidates
If there's anything I learned from Who Framed Roger Rabbit, it's that nobody will ever go for this crazy scheme...
Gas price went down yet again in my town today. The lowest today is $2.69 for regular. Went down from $3.39 in 2 wks. And I live in one of the most expensive areas in the country (Northern VA - 30 miles west of DC).
oops, for some reason my link didn't work. Here it is from Americablog:
Hopefullt this will work.
Mass Transit takes up more gas than our current set up
Has anyone seen this disgraceful piece of shit? It's little wonder we lose, lose and lose again. This woman will sadly be employed again and again and again by democrats too stupid to learn.
"There isn't a SINGLE shred of evidence that George Bush and his corrupt crony government has the capability of rebuilding New Orleans."
Capability? I don't think there's even *inclination*.
Can we just put Donna Brazile and Bob Shrum on the ice floe already?
We should lower the taxes on gasoline, thereby making it more abundant.
Shrub: Do I have to come right flat out and say it, GIMME SOME MONEY!
plantsman
you are on to something here, but I don't think a posting would cut it. Even if you ride a bicycle every where you go, you still pay for the roads. We all subsidize automobile transportation and trucking. 90% of damage to interstates is caused by trucks, but try getting them to pay that bill...or even add more axles to reduce the damage.
Some countries pay for roads directly from gas tax revenues, not out of general revenue. The gas tax also typically subsidizes public transit in these countries.
Only when the true cost of taking that trip across town is paid by the ones taking it, will we really appreciate those costs
A few years back, there was this wild idea about mandating car manufacturers to improve the fuel economy of their products. I wonder what the average mpg would be if our "leaders" had not felt sorry for the poor beleaguered auto industry. I know! Let's revive the idea, but now, let's give the auto industry kickba..., oops, I mean, tax incentives, to improve their products.
Mass Transit takes up more gas than our current set up
No thread would be complete without an absolutely fucking stupid comment from Ruppert.
Oh yeah.. this too:
Saturday September 17, 2005--Forty-seven percent (47%) of American adults now approve of the way George W. Bush is performing his role as President. Fifty-one percent (51%) currently Disapprove of the way the President is doing his job.
Rasmussen is the only poll that matters.
Other Rasmussen numbers: 62% of Americans approve of Bush's response to Katrina. 68% of Americans disapprove of Ray Nagin's response to Katrina.
Mass Transit takes up more gas than our current set up
No thread would be complete without an absolutely fucking stupid comment from Ruppert.
Hey now, be fair. Busses get much much poorer gas mileage than individual cars or even SUVs.
"Can we just put Donna Brazile and Bob Shrum on the ice floe already?"
I can't stand these people. I hate them more then goopers. I'm resigned that we'll be a minority/dying party for the rest of my life. I hate these simple fucks.
Rasmussen is the only poll that matters.
Why?
OT: I keep banging this sillly drum senseless, but federal maps identifying the parts of the US with the greatest wind energy potential already exist, why not maximze wind power NOW; the technology is already good and improving every day, wind is free, and we jusy have to shut up the NIMBY-weenies and develop a different aesthetic attitude about it-- wind turbines are very restful to look at in action.
Forty-seven percent (47%) of American adults now approve of the way George W. Bush is performing his role as President. Fifty-one percent (51%) currently Disapprove of the way the President is doing his job.
The troll is proud of being on the losing team.
Rasmussen is the only poll that matters.
Why?
It's the only one that got the result right in 2004
The troll is proud of being on the losing team.
47% is better than the claims of 40% from the liberal media.
47% means that a few weak-kneed people got antsy over what Bush was doing
Rasmussen is the only poll that matters.
Why?
Cause it's the only poll Gary Ruppert says matters, that's why.
Dear Ruppert,
How can you listen Bush speak, or look him in they eye, and conclude that he's at all qualified to run the country?
62% of Americans approve of Bush's response to Katrina. 68% of Americans disapprove of Ray Nagin's response to Katrina.
Stupid and a liar.
"just 39% of Americans say that the President has done a good or an excellent job of responding to the Hurricane Katrina crisis."
This graph must make Ruppert uncomfortable...
Rasmussen is the only poll that matters.
It's true, because its finger is notoriously pushing down on the Rethug side of the scale.
There is not even enough Rethug lipstick to pretty up this pustule encrusted pig.
Rasmussen is the only poll that matters.
Keep eating those Cheetohs!
It still shows the majority of Americans think Chimpy's Katrina response is fucked-up. But it's nice to see that wingnuts have set the bar so low that "success" is now defined as "well, at least a large margin of the majority of Americans don't think we're retarded!"
You're doin' a heckuva job Brownie!
I love trains and rail, but it is the answer in a only a select few areas.
The best feasible answer is commuting via ride-sharing with jitneys, small bus-like vehicles with customized flexible routes that you can call up, maybe on your hand held. Think of a taxi that can comfortably hold 6-8 people, that will come within a few minutes.
Along with stiff, stiff extra fares for single occ vehicles during peak hours.
Ray Nagin is a Bush supporter.
I live in St. Louis, and we actually have a developing mass transit system known as the MetroLink. It's a light-rail elevated system that's actually constantly growing.
The problem hear is racism. Since the system has a major end point in East St Louis, Il, there is always a huge amount of opposition every time the proposal is brought up to extend it to more major centers of St Louis, especially St Charles and other almost completely 'white' areas of the greater metro area. The argument is always that extending it to certain communities will bring in increased crime, despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of people who use it now are people going to work.
I'd give anything for NY's subway system.
47% is better than the claims of 40% from the liberal media.
Yes, that's quite a mandate.
Wa state legislators imposed a gas tax last legislative session. It's about to come off via a voter initiative. Even after all the events of this summer, all voters can think about is the short term.
And the mayor of Seattle just put the kibosh on the expansion of the monorail. Great idea but idiotic execution leading to gross cost overruns. No simple way to explain it to the public, so out it goes.
The argument is always that extending it to certain communities will bring in increased crime, despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of people who use it now are people going to work.
I guess criminals must commute too, eh?
It's true, because its finger is notoriously pushing down on the Rethug side of the scale.
Because it is the only poll that has a realistic sample?
I guess you prefer polls where the sample is 48% Democrat, 42% Republican, and 10% Independent
Mass Transit takes up more gas than our current set up
Mr. Ruppert, which one of your asses did you pull this non-fact out of?
Back the fucker up with some hard data, please!
i've never understood the jitney fantasy. door to door ride sharing takes forever.
Toyota refuses to make a production model of their new es3, which delivers more than 100 MPG.
You're doin' a heckuva job Brownie!
Central Scrutinizer - 1:58 pm
Dubya used to say the exact same thing to Colin Powell while rubbing his head as Powell wriggled in delight.
plantman - if someone set up a wind turbine out here on Lake San Cristobal today, they could power the entire state. Maybe the entire western US.
Jeebus the wind blows up here. It's been blowing now for a week, just like June. Unusual for September and very bothersome. It's the only weather up here I can't take.
There are more than a few people up here who are totally solar. It works well in this part of the country. A combination wind and solar could realistically power a lot of the western US.
The Rasmussen Poll = The fat dude who thinks sucking in his gut makes him look good in a Speedo.
Ray Nagin is a Bush supporter.
Nope, he endorsed Kerry, not Bush
Maybe Shrub should start moving around in a wheelchair. Hell, it worked marvelously for FDR.
Arrgh -- what amazing timing:
One Dead, Dozens Hurt in Train Derailment
CHICAGO (Sept. 17) - At least one person was killed and dozens were injured after a commuter train derailed Saturday morning on Chicago's South Side, officials said.
The five-car Metra train was traveling from Joliet to Chicago when the derailment occurred around 8:36 a.m., authorities said. About 125 passengers were on board.
Seventy-six people were injured, said Monique Bond, a spokeswoman for the office of emergency management. Some of those injured were in critical condition, said fire department spokesman Larry Langford.
Federal authorities were investigating the cause of the derailment, Bond said.
09/17/05 13:14 EDT
Maybe Shrub should start moving around in a wheelchair. Hell, it worked marvelously for FDR.
Given his track record with vehicles...
I endorse this idea wholeheartedly.
Again Ruppert,
It's not liberal "hate" to say that this President is an incompetent boob. When are smart conservatives going to jump ship en masse?
If us Okies are any measure, we just had a .05 per gallon gas tax proposal to fix roads and bridges (which really need fixin') and it got shot down with an 82% No vote.
"In the life of our nation, we have seen that wondrous things are possible when we act with God's grace," Bush said in his weekly radio address. "From the rubble of destroyed homes we can see the beginnings of vibrant new neighborhoods. From the despair of lives torn asunder we can see the hope of rebirth. And from the depth of darkness we can see a bright dawn emerging over the Gulf Coast and the great city of New Orleans."
That "bright dawn" is a flashlight beam that Rove is shining up your whistle ass.
It's not liberal "hate" to say that this President is an incompetent boob. When are smart conservatives going to jump ship en masse?
When he becomes demonstrably bad for business.
Opensecrets:
NAGIN, C RAY
NEW ORLEANS,LA 70122
COX COMMUNICATIONS
3/30/1999
$1,000
Bush, George W
Now, he might have endorsed Kerry in 2004, but I'd like Ruppert to actually provide a source for that.
I miss living in a city with reliable mass transit.
And I hate living in a country that spawns asshats like Ruppert.
If you build it, they will come.
Unfortunately, nobody is going to pick up the tab for building it until they're already there...
Schwag of Tulsa - I think that's just about how a proposed tax hike on gas would be greeted anywhere in the country at the moment.
I'm not surprised it was voted down.
Yep, a nice light rail system, elevated in the proper places, could have wisked the folks in NO right out of town and to connection all over the country.
i've never understood the jitney fantasy. door to door ride sharing takes forever.
Me neither.
And carpooling only works if everyone is on the exact same schedule.
Give me a subway and a decent bus schedule.
NTodd sez:
but I'd like Ruppert to actually provide a source for that.
Silly NTodd! The trolls rarely, if ever, provide cites. 'Cuz usually their information comes from the Oxycontin Kid or ClownHall.
.
Oregonians aren't willing to p[ay for the roads we drive on either. And then we have this little billion -dollar problem of failing highway bridges that were built on the cheap we keep having to replace.
Pennywise the Clown Government.
Nope, he endorsed Kerry, not Bush
He gave money to Bush.
If us Okies are any measure, we just had a .05 per gallon gas tax proposal to fix roads and bridges (which really need fixin') and it got shot down with an 82% No vote.
Schwag of Tulsa
As long as the legislature passes the buck on important issues like this to a referendum, it will never happen. Taxes suck, yes...but like mothers in law, you just have to deal with them as a part of living in a society
Nope, he endorsed Kerry, not Bush
He gave money to Bush.
Which just proves what a typical two-faced Democrat he is!
Why, where are Garry's facts on mass transit taking more fuel. Since not each person needs a bus or train, there aren't any facts. What a shame when a troll writes his own obituary!
Hey Ruppert, suck on this. Straight from right wing Real Clear Politics:
President George W. Bush - Job Approval Ratings
Poll Date Approve Disapprove Spread
RCP Average 9/7 - 9/14 41.9% 53.3% -11.4%
FOX News 9/13 - 9/14 41% 51% -10%
Rasmussen 9/12 - 9/14 47% 52% -5%
CBS News/NY Times 9/9 - 9/13 41% 53% -12%
NBC News/WSJ 9/9 - 9/12 40% 55% -15%
CNN/USA Today/Gallup 9/8 - 9/11 46% 51% -5%
ABC News/Wash Post 9/8 - 9/11 42% 57% -15%
Pew Research 9/8 - 9/11 40% 52% -12%
Newsweek 9/8 - 9/9 38% 55% -17%
Time 9/7 - 9/8 42% 52% -10%
Nine polls, with and average of 42%.
Nagin endorsed Blanco's GOP opponent...
Times-Picuyne, 7/29/2004, accessed though Lexis-Nexis:
Unlike most of the Louisiana elected officials here for the Democratic National Convention, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin isnt a delegate. He isnt even particularly partisan, as his controversial endorsement of Republican Bobby Jindal for governor last year proved.
But, "Ray Reagan" jokes aside, the mayor is both a Democrat and a strong supporter of John Kerry. And he arrived in Boston midway through the convention week carrying a message for Kerrys strategists, one thats being echoed by a number of rank-and-file delegates. It boils down to something like this: "Were sticking with you, so please, stick with us."
What prompted the plea is the news that Kerry has stopped running television ads in Louisiana and a handful of other states, instead shifting his resources elsewhere -- an unwelcome echo, some who lived through the 2000 election fear, of Al Gores decision to basically cede the fight in Louisiana well before Election Day.
What now Liberals?
Because it is the only poll that has a realistic sample?
Oh, get the fuck out of here.
Scott Rasmussen, who until recently featured a bitterly tongue-in-cheek "Hillary Watch" poll on the home page, reports that his realistic sample indicates that 38% strongly disapprove of BushCo and only 24% strongly approve.
You're going to have to stop striking out, Ruppert. The playoffs are right around the corner.
Which just proves what a typical two-faced Democrat he is!
He is a Democrat in name only.
Polls schmoleze...
When are conservatives going to all go on FOX and bow down to their savior, the man who guided, molded the 'new' right and outspent Scaife raising up HIS brand of theocratic fascism within the Republican party and America.
Thanks a lot conservatives, you sold the nation down the river.
Now the world has to deal him.
And what is your excuse Gary?
Tena:
And Metro Phoenix would be a great laboratory for the development of modular photovotaic roofing materials that could replace traditional shingles and provide significant power.
Yeah, the Rockies provide tremendous wind potential, and as far as anyone knows, it's infinite.
Certain warm winds unsettle the heck out of me.
Stay in and Stay sane.
So, do you have proof that Nagin switched his party affiliation before he ran for Mayor?
plantsman - Gary might be simply misunderstanding "passenger miles-per gallon". All modes of transport right now are roughly equal, IIRC, but that's because of low ridership on mass transit.
i've never understood the jitney fantasy. door to door ride sharing takes forever.
I take mass transit and carpool. It's doable if you arrange to meet at a central location, like a major transit stop.
What I want to know is what difference it makes who Nagin supported for anything.
Honestly - what the fuck?
The gas tax should be a percentage of cost, just like sales tax. Then as prices go up revenues for road and bridge repair, and mass transit increase.
And, it gives politicians a way to look good when a major increase like we just saw happens: cut the rate for six monhts to help "stabalize" the situation while still taking in more money. You look good, and revenues increase!
What now Liberals?
Are you incapable of linking?
Regardless, it's shocking that a Democrat would endorse his party's national candidate. Weird that he still gives to GOP candidates, and endorses them in his state over his party's candidates, though, ain't it?
i've never understood the jitney fantasy. door to door ride sharing takes forever.
It's not done that way anymore.
They usually meet at a central point, load up on a van, and car pool in. The Texas Medical Center will even pay for the van if eight or so people agree to share. It has been quite successful.
They had a segment on the news about some agency will rent you these vans for about $150 a month. Before the gas crunch, they had plenty of unused money. Now they can't get enough vans.
As far as everyone needing to be on the same schedule - Most people I know have work at home connections paid for by their employer. So if you need to burn the midnight oil, you can do it from home.
What I want to know is what difference it makes who Nagin supported for anything.
Honestly - what the fuck?
Amen. Nagin's a small-time local politician who was in over his head with Katrina. Who cares?
could have wisked the folks in NO right out of town and to connection all over the country.
We don't want no more Superdomes in OUR town.
A lot of corporations give money to both candidates in races - they like to hedge their bets.
Maybe that's why Nagin split his support.
What difference does it make to anything?
Why are you guys arguing with that fucking assclown?
Don't you have better things to do with your lives?
You need to provide the proof, Gary.
I guess criminals must commute too, eh?
Yes. According to the local dogma, criminals from East St Louis take the metrolink every day to rob banks and rape women. Or something. The people I see most riding it are going to Rams or Cardinals games downtown...
Weird that he still gives to GOP candidates, and endorses them in his state over his party's candidates, though, ain't it?
Source
Ray Nagin , 49 (bio)
Mayor of New Orleans 2002-present $3,000 Republican
$5,900 Democrat
$2,500 special interest
total: $11,400
Hmmm.. weird how he gave more money to Democrats. You liars.
Nagin's a small-time local politician who was in over his head with Katrina. Who cares?
The families who lost loved ones because Ray Nagin was in over his head and didn't want to call out the buses.
plantsman - Gary might be simply misunderstanding "passenger miles-per gallon". All modes of transport right now are roughly equal, IIRC, but that's because of low ridership on mass transit.
My bus is packed - standing room only during rush hour. I have the misfortune of having to catch an express bus on its last stop. I'm lucky that my lunch cooler also doubles as an aisle seat.
To all of those who believe that things are going so well, I guess we should just give up and do nothing, right?
What we have been doing, waiting for Bush to fuck up so badly that the people will have to turn away from him and his party, is working so well.
Why are you guys arguing with that fucking assclown?
Words.
Don't you have better things to do with your lives?
I do! I'm processing photos from my trip to California, oh, about a month ago.
And I still have some travel pics from my EschaCon trip, too...
So, do you have proof that Nagin switched his party affiliation before he ran for Mayor?
Son, you need a bigger hook and stronger line.
What a stupid fucking argument.
I guess criminals must commute too, eh?
Just arrest everybody who gets on the train carrying a big-screen plasma TV.
The criminal argument has always been racist bullshit.
The families who lost loved ones because Ray Nagin was in over his head and didn't want to call out the buses.
Gary Ruppert
Buses get shitty gas mileage. No one rides them. Buses are a waste of taxpayer money.
I do! I'm processing photos from my trip to California, oh, about a month ago.
Well, hop to it. And quit arguing with the asshat.
You just encourage it. All it wants to do is change the subject from dear leader and dear leader's unbelievable incompetence.
Later guys.
Afternoon, all -- except you,
Gary, who can go fuck himself.
Meanwhile, I'd be curious to know
if mass transit ridership is up
in NYC lately with a corresponding
decline in taxi use.
Well, hop to it. And quit arguing with the asshat.
Yeah, I'm done. It's like arguing with a five-year-old, but with less reading comprehension.
I am sick to death of hearing about those fucking buses in NOLA. That's all the trolls have squawked about for 2 fucking weeks: The Buses! The Buses!
Enough - even Commander CooCoo Bananas admitted that the federal government fucked up. Now shut the fuck up about the goddamned buses or I swear, Ruppert, I will find you and cram a NOLA bus up your ass.
I live in Los Angeles and have ridden the Metro Rail to work for almost 7 years. It costs me $52 a month for a pass and saves me $200+ a month in gas, and the $3 a day for the parking. I only have to drive the 2 miles to the station by the airport and walk the one block to the office in downtown. Light rail works out great for me, but there needs to be more of it in order to really have a greater benefit to the people who really need it...the working poor. The slime I work for drives his 6mpg Excursion to the office from the same neighborhood I live in and complains endlessly that it's costing him almost $600 a month for his commute. When I told him how much I pay for my trip to work everyday, he replied that there were too many of "those" people on the train. Mass transit will never be adequately funded in this country because most white people think riding the bus to work is beneath them. And we wonder why New Orleans played out the way it did.
Now shut the fuck up about the goddamned buses or I swear, Ruppert, I will find you and cram a NOLA bus up your ass.
I'll pay for your planefare.
Yeah, I'm done. It's like arguing with a five-year-old, but with less reading comprehension.
I'll say.
I'm hoping to work hard enough to become the President that makes Conservative Republicanism a permanent thing in America
A lot of corporations give money to both candidates in races - they like to hedge their bets.
Pet peeve of mine. Corporate contributions just seem so wrong. Political Free Speech? Same thing; all corporations are made up of thousands of people who already have their own political Free Speech rights. It seems to me the corps use theirs to offset the rights of their employees, and double up on those of the owners.
From wikipedia -
Before his election, Nagin was a member of the Republican Party and had little political experience; he was a vice president and general manager at Cox Communications, a cable communications company and subsidiary of Cox Enterprises. Nagin did give contributions periodically to candidates, including President George W. Bush and former Republican U.S. Representative Billy Tauzin in 1999 and 2000, as well as to Democratic U.S. Senators John Breaux and J. Bennett Johnston earlier in the decade.
Days before filing for the New Orleans Mayoral race in February 2002, Nagin switched his party registration to the Democratic Party. Shortly before the primary election, an endorsement praising Nagin as a reformer by Gambit Magazine gave him crucial momentum that would carry through for the primary election and runoff
Although, Tena, it sounds suspiciously like you might be endorsing rape. Are you? Huh? Are you?
*peer at severely*
even Commander CooCoo Bananas admitted that the federal government fucked up.
No he didn't.
He said that the Government fell short of the best performance in the things they were supposed to do
I am sick to death of hearing about those fucking buses in NOLA. That's all the trolls have squawked about for 2 fucking weeks: The Buses! The Buses!
Yeah, the right must be bitterly disappointed that the death toll wasn't higher so they could blame it on Blanco and Nagin.
I'm hoping to work hard enough to become the President that makes Conservative Republicanism a permanent thing in America
Gary Ruppert
Why not just go someplace that's already a third world country and call it a day?
Ack.
STOP TALKING TO THE ASSCLOWN.
For the love of god.
Doozer - I agree with you about corporations giving money. It should be illegal.
And as for corporations having a right to free speech - well that's just perverted. That whole idea of the personhood of corporations is perverted.
I hope you like tidepools, 4lg - 'cuz that's what you're getting!
Still haven't provided your excuse, Gary.
Corrected for accuracy
the left must be bitterly disappointed that the death toll wasn't higher so they could blame it on Bush.
Now shut the fuck up about the goddamned buses or I swear, Ruppert, I will find you and cram a NOLA bus up your ass.
I'll pay for your planefare.
Eli
And I'll spring for a limo ride to the airport.
sure, people can make car pooling arrangements, but htat's very different from the "jitney on demand" people fantasize about.
This mass transit argument is old, old, old.
The time for that came and went with barely a whisper from the Left, and certainly not the Right.
Anyone remember, the country was awash with corporate collapse, terror fears, high unemployment and a dot com bust. It had a huge budget surplus, however. DUH!!!!
Let's see, what was the thinking. Gas will always be cheap, even as we use it faster than ever in our yuppie SUVs. Let's grow our way out of the mess instead. Tax cuts for the rich and affluent. YIPPIE!!!
It's kind of like the current New Orleans rhetoric IMO. Let's rebuild bigger and better than ever. YES!!!!
Yet another road to hell paved with good intentions, and absolutely no foresight. http://news.independent.co.uk/
wo...ticle312997.ece
And I'll spring for a limo ride to the airport.
Or a jitney. Some of us might decide to come along.
You'll need a photographer, right?
I'm hoping to work hard enough to become the President that makes Conservative Republicanism a permanent thing in America
Given who's president now, that's gonna take a lotta real hard work -- and what iis it you do NOW, perchance?
Christmas List for Trolls
Gary Ruppert, hernia truss
gordon the magnificant, Enzyte and a blowup doll
Toby, Cheese of the week club
schwa, a vowel to call his own
Ted, What can you get the troll who has it all?
Given who's president now, that's gonna take a lotta real hard work -- and what iis it you do NOW, perchance?
You're soaking in it.
I hope you like tidepools, 4lg - 'cuz that's what you're getting!
I loves me some tide pools?
Did you get pictures with little critters swimming around in them?
I loved going to laguna beach as a kid just to hang out at the tide pools and see all the little sea creatures.
the left must be bitterly disappointed that the death toll wasn't higher so they could blame it on Bush.
Gary Ruppert
I already blame it all on Bush:
Katrina forecasters were remarkably accurate
Levee breaks, catastrophic damage predicted, contrary to Bush claims
MSNBC staff and news service reports
Updated: 5:39 p.m. ET Sept. 16, 2005
MIAMI - For all the criticism of the Bush administrations confused response to Hurricane Katrina, at least two federal agencies got it right: the National Weather Service and the National Hurricane Center.
They forecast the path of the storm and the potential for devastation with remarkable accuracy.
The performance by the two agencies calls into question claims by President Bush and others in his administration that Katrina was a catastrophe that no one envisioned.
For example, Bush told ABC on Sep. 1 that I dont think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees. In its storm warnings, the hurricane center never used the word breached. But a day before Katrina came ashore Aug. 29, the agency warned in capital letters: SOME LEVEES IN THE GREATER NEW ORLEANS AREA COULD BE OVERTOPPED.
National Hurricane Center Director Max Mayfield also gave daily pre-storm videoconference briefings to federal officials in Washington, warning them of a nightmare scenario of New Orleans levees not holding, winds smashing windows in high-rise buildings and flooding wiping out large swaths of the Gulf Coast.
A photo on the White House Web site shows Bush in Crawford, Texas, watching Mayfield give a briefing on Aug. 28, a day before Katrina smashed ashore with 145-mph winds.
Tena --
The point is that the troll disrupted the discussion into a pointless "Did so! -- Did not!" argument -- that's what trolls do if fed
The cost of trains per rider is a function of use -- since the number of cars used is (theorectically) variable according to the number of passengers, rail transportation is the most efficient & economical way to move anything on land
I'm hoping to work hard enough to become the President that makes Conservative Republicanism a permanent thing in America
If your name isn't Bush, you are raving.
You're raving even if.
If they had segregated mass transit, one system for affluent whites, and another system for blacks and poor whites, it might work.
In July, 1992, I was in Moscow and used the subway a lot. It was a great experience -- fast, efficient, and every station a unique architectural work of art -- but the Russian I was with complained that the subway was not as good as it used to be -- a bit dirtier and panhandlers starting to show up at the entrances/exits. Sadly, I hear that it's gotten worse since '92.
I'd definitely settle for a subway system in Los Angeles as good as the one in Moscow in '92. Hell, I'd settle for one as good as the Moscow subway today.
You're soaking in it.
Word, Eli.
Gone to Lunch.
Did you get pictures with little critters swimming around in them?
I loved going to laguna beach as a kid just to hang out at the tide pools and see all the little sea creatures.
Eh, not so much. Not a whole lot of ambulatory creatures, but lots of anenomes and barnacle-y things. Also some crabs and green things what look like trilobites.
You are all welcome to the party where I shove a bus up Ruppert's overly large ass.
Shouldn't be too difficult to do.
Why is he hanging around trying to argue that everything went peachy when NOLA was under water?
Why? He ain't going to persuade anyone here that Commander CooCoo Bananas did anything other than play a geetar to raise more money for Repugs while NOLA drowned.
Christ almighty - everyone knows what happened in great detail. There's no room for spin or lies. What the hell is the idjit trying to do?
Oy. ok I'll quit ranting about the damned troll.
The performance by the two agencies calls into question claims by President Bush and others in his administration that Katrina was a catastrophe that no one envisioned.
I think the lesson here is that not putting cronies in charge of NWS and NHC was a huge and inexplicable mistake.
If they had segregated mass transit, one system for affluent whites, and another system for blacks and poor whites, it might work.
It would be a much easier sell to this Congress, that's for sure, and probably the electorate too.
Hey, maybe we could model it on the Indian rail system of old.
(Don't laugh, if things keep going the way they are we may just find ourselves doing something similar in ten years, only we'll disguise it through fares.)
Nice to see you actually writing thoughts about a subject, Duncan. One tires of one-line teasers and a link. I never click on those anyway.
You are all welcome to the party where I shove a bus up Ruppert's overly large ass.
OK, scratch the truss.
HICA, ever-body!
.
Why is he hanging around trying to argue that everything went peachy when NOLA was under water?
Well.. on the federal side, everything went smoothly, other than state/local mistakes.
What the hell is the idjit trying to do?
Trying desperately to convince himself that dear leader isn't the complete fuckup that he obviously is.
The cognitive dissonance must be unbearable.
Who else here wants Tena to rape Gary Ruppert with a bus?
Why are you guys arguing with that fucking assclown?
Don't you have better things to do with your lives?
fourlegsgood - 2:20 pm
This was covered earlier. Apparently some like to spar with assclowns because they feel it helps them to stay in shape.
Others relieve a growing irritation with assclowns by snapping out at them, as one might discharge an accumulated static electricity charge by touching a conductive object with the tip of a key.
For others it is a pastime similar to the childhood sport of Playing With Ants. The two most common approaches are: Mixing two kinds of ants in a clear container to see if they fight, and burning ants with a magnifying glass.
And some argue that assclowns, and dialogue with assclowns, is a healthy practice, like a high colonic. It helps us to avoid becoming too constipated or oblivious to what we're up against.
Those of us who are merely repelled or appalled, who regard troll-baiting as equivalent to sports like bear-baiting or cockfighting, and who feel that discourse is irredeemably cheapened by indulging assclowns, have the option of scrolling past.
Because, absent registration, trolls are as inevitable as cockroaches. And some people really get off on leaping up to achieve the distinctive cracking sound of a cockroach being squished, or leaving a long smear of cockroach guts on a flat surface.
It's a mistake to try to take that away, I reluctantly suppose.
And now to preview, publish, and exclaim "D'oh!" at being Left Behind while the action has moved upthread...
re: the buses...The question no one has asked is who was available to drive them? Keys? Were they fueled? Lastly, where were they going to take the evacuees with various local law enforcement telling tall tales of eminent rescue to entice them to leave the area, only to run into other juristicional authorities turning back anyone trying to leave, sometimes at the point of a gun?
In July, 1992, I was in Moscow and used the subway a lot.
I loved the Moscow metro when I lived there in '90. I couldn't imagine trying to drive there.
On-topic,
On the one hand, I think a gas tax hike is a good idea from the point of view of conservation ESPECIALLY if the resultant revenues actually do go to improving mass transit.
However, I must also say that increasing the gas tax is both a regressive tax -- it affects poorer people disproportionately, and a tax that produces an immediate drag on the economy, because it increases the cost of doing pretty much any kind of business.
So it in fact has both the negative aspects that liberals associate with tax hikes and those that Republicans associate with tax hikes.
Why? He ain't going to persuade anyone here that Commander CooCoo Bananas did anything other than play a geetar to raise more money for Repugs while NOLA drowned.
I'm convinced the purpose is distraction and annoyance. It has nothing to do with argument or reason. It's simply a tactic to disrupt. IMO, they're likely paid operatives, what I've come to think of as Mehlmanesque "fluffers". If they get you to engage them, they've succeeded in the appointed task.
Spending the revenue on mass transit projects would make a gas tax hike a political impossibility. In fact, spending the revenues on anything would make it a political impossibility. The only way a higher gas tax might actually receive public support is if the revenue is actually returned to the citizens, for example, through the same mechanism that social security taxes are removed. If people could actually see $20 extra on their paychecks every two weeks, then there would actually be wide demand for a *higher* gas tax. About half the population would make money off such a system, and we would decrease our dependence on oil to boot.
John Farr - then why are you talking about those posts you never click on?
There's someone lurking around ready to jump on anything Atrios posts, I swear. There's more Atrios-envy out there than I needed to know about, that's for sure.
Because, absent registration, trolls are as inevitable as cockroaches.
But less charismatic and sanitary.
Hmmm.. weird how he gave more money to Democrats. You liars.
Who claimed it was even? As your data shows, he gave to the GOP, and did endorse GOP candidates over Dems. Stop moving the goalposts, you stupid fuck.
Man, I miss gordo.
Well.. on the federal side, everything went smoothly, other than state/local mistakes.
Gary Ruppert
Then what was your man-god taking responsibilty for? Was he lying about that?
This is why ridicule is the only answer a troll deserves. LIES, typical conservative talk.
yeah in LA there are more cars than people and the car companies would never let the mass transit really get to the point of widespread useage...
Ruppert:
Get back to us when your sister
has to have a back alley abortion
courtesy of Bush's new Supreme
Court.
Meant to add: yes, mass transit is glorious and should never have been DISMANTLED like it was.
But it will never, ever be built up again. This is blowing bubbles out our asses. The country is broke, and the Republicans will never make us solvent again. In three years, no one will recognize this country. I predict a virtual breakup of the U.S. into regions where life is more or less possible to varying degrees, and also that the absolute worst places to inhabit will be any kind of major urban area.
Too little, too late. The last election was the clank of doom.
That whole idea of the personhood of corporations is perverted.
Tena
Big 10-4.
The reconstruction of NO will be a 100 billion dollar boondoggle for Republicans. Why was the media critical of Bush on this story? Because it benefits Republicans.
The question no one has asked is who was available to drive them?
A lot of people can drive a schoolbus. Even an 18 year old kid did it!
Keys?
Not hard to find
Were they fueled?
Did you see the oil slicks in the photos of the Nagin Memorial Bus Pool? Of course they were fueled.
Lastly, where were they going to take the evacuees with various local law enforcement telling tall tales of eminent rescue to entice them to leave the area, only to run into other juristicional authorities turning back anyone trying to leave, sometimes at the point of a gun?
Baton Rouge.
Anywhere would be better than New Orleans.
Instead, Nagin never ordered an evacuation of the city.
Man, I miss gordo.
NTodd
He'll be back as soon as this sock gets gooey. He's on the rotation.
(two beats)
"I loved the Moscow metro when I lived there in '90. I couldn't imagine trying to drive there."
That's asking for trebbie.
Given who's president now, that's gonna take a lotta real hard work -- and what iis it you do NOW, perchance?
You're soaking in it.
Eli
Customer: "Soaking in what, shit?!"
Madge the Republican Manicurist: "Relax! It's New Orleans! Or what's left of it. The preznit needs to get on with his life, you know."
Doesn't matter who he supported in the past, the way the reconstruction will go is that Nagin will have to kiss Bush/Rove's A$$es for every dime of reconstruction money.
On the one hand, I think a gas tax hike is a good idea
With respect to your balanced argument, this line is music to the Republican's ears. They might privately agree, but the progressive political movement might as well jump off a cliff.
I'm onboard for ignoring this particular trool. It's completely incapable of intellectual honesty.
Because, absent registration, trolls are as inevitable as cockroaches.
You're forgetting the little It Takes Two To Tango thang...
Or Three To Thrango...
Or Four To Fango...
Or Five to...Fango Some More...
I'm hoping to work hard enough to become the President that makes Conservative Republicanism a permanent thing in America
Gary Ruppert
Borrowing and spending like a drunken sailor, starting wars of choice, growing the federal bureaucracy, destroying our ability to respond to natural disasters, using junk science to justify gutting environmental regulations, and now presiding over a graft-laden $200B boondoggle in Louisiana run by a guy who blew the cover of a CIA WMD expert because her husband was a Democrat.
Gary--I'm about ready for a Conservative president, too, because the assclown we've got doesn't appear to know the meaning of the word.
That whole idea of the personhood of corporations is perverted.
Tena
It is the worst supreme court decision after Dred Scott. It's even worse than Plessey. It is the greatest danger to democracy that the Supreme Court has ever generated.
From Tena:
"John Farr - then why are you talking about those posts you never click on?"
I surf enough that I already know the stories. I'm looking for signs of intelligent life, not a lefty Google News -- nice as that is. But I send people here all the time from my own sites.
Some of my pique is no doubt envy: all the advertising income from a dozen open threads 'n' all ...
It is the greatest danger to democracy that the Supreme Court has ever generated.
Bush vs. Gore?
Gary:
Let's try it one more time.
It makes no goddamn difference
if the the mayor of NO, the governor
of LA and then entire population
of the city were blind fricking drunk
the entire week before and after
Katrina.
Disaster relief is the responsibility
of the Feds.
The Feds fucked up.
Big time.
Now suck on it, you mongrel idiot.
Americans and their politicians and corporations screwed themselves out of functional mass transit a long time ago.
I've been to Europe, Japan, and Taiwan and the train systems there make it an absolute pleasure to get around. Americans will NEVER have this, which is one reason why we are in decline.
I couldn't imagine trying to drive there.
Riding in a car with our Russian host was also a unique experience. He was a Russian lawyer with an old Lada (I think that was the car). It was so rusted out from the Russian winters that you could see the road through the floorboards and at one point, while stopped in traffic, the tail pipe fell off. Unfazed, this elderly lawyer got out of the car, retrieved a rag from the trunk, picked up the tail pipe, stowed it in the trunk to be reattached later, climbed back into the car, and away we sped. It seemed to be no big deal to him.
One thing I do remember about the drive to and from the Moscow airport was the many memorials to the dead and the defense of Moscow in WWII. Really made you think about the hell that must have been.
Instead, Nagin never ordered an evacuation of the city.
Gary Ruppert
Sunday, August 28
Nagin orders first-ever mandatory evacuation of New Orleans
By Gordon Russell
Staff writer
New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin called for a first-ever mandatory evacuation of the city this morning, saying that Hurricane Katrinas devastating power may well create the sort of cataclysmic damage that residents have long worried that a killer storm could cause in a city that lies mostly below sea level.
I wish I had better news, but were facing the storm most of us have feared, said Nagin, flanked by city and state officials, including Gov. Kathleen Blanco. This is very serious. This is going to be an unprecedented event.
ON Aug. 28th, Mayor Nagin orders a mandatory evacuation and opens 10 "refuges of last resort." City buses bring some to shelters.
Source.
I, for one, thank Gary for helping us remember the facts of the worst natural disaster in American history.
Instead, Nagin never ordered an evacuation of the city.
Oh, I get it now, parody troll.
Nagin orders first-ever mandatory evacuation of New Orleans
By Gordon Russell
Even Gordo knows the score!
That whole idea of the personhood of corporations is perverted.
If you have litigated wrongful or illegal acts by corporations--other than personal injury anyway--you have no idea, and I'm not speaking as an attorney.
Whether as plaintiff or defendant, the court always (in my experience) gives them the benefit of the doubt.
The structural failure of our institutions is the courts, and the deference given to corporated entities. Most people never see it because they never end up fighting against one. Those that do know, however.
It the judges, and it's frightening.
Bush vs. Gore?
Eli
It is what made Bush vs. Gore possible. Without it the press wouldn't have been free to lie, corporate barons wouldn't have been free to corrupt the political system, ....
It created a race of what are literally super"persons" which don't have a lifespan, which are free to buy influence and power, which have enormous financial power and which have real-life abilities to destroy us mere mortals. There is no question of equality except for a very, very rare individual who by some fluke wins over them.
When I first came across the word "jitney" as a kid-- read it somewhere, probably, bookworm that I am-- I thought it was something dirty having to do with sex, which I knew nothing about. The term was unknown and unused in West Philly.
Because the Big Kids, by which I mean the coarse low-life Fonzie types who hung on corners smoking and were often older brothers to my friends and classmates, referred to semen as "jit".
I wasn't sure what "jit" was, but I guessed wrongly that it was an essential part of the jitney experience.
Then somewhere along the line "jit" was replaced by "jizz". If it had happened sooner, the word "jitney" would not have made me blush for so many years.
There are so many complications to the issue of mass transit!
I'm hoping to work hard enough to become the President that makes Conservative Republicanism a permanent thing in America
Or you could go to the DR Congo and see how Reagan's good buddy Mobutu Sese Seko put similar principles of kleptocratic, cronyist incompetent government into action. And stay there.
Oh, I get it now, parody troll.
Yeah, no one's that stupid.
Well, Bush is, but that's not news.
A gas tax does hurt the poor, of course (until they get so poor or gas gets so expensive that they can't afford it at all)
The best form of taxation is a seriously progressive income tax -- it is the most fair -- does the best job of equalizing opportunity & creates the healthiest society
Trolls come to disrupt discussion
Troll feeders enable them
Toonscribe - the only time I rode in a car was with a friend who worked at the US Embassy. He and a coworker picked me up on Oktyabrskaya Ul after my classes were done and we went to see Tak Zhit' Nelzya. Thought I was going to die.
Yay for living in Boston! The rest of you guys are screwed.
Actually, listening to the trolls
spinning madly about NOLA is
giving me major deja vu for
Florida in 2000.
It's the same 180 degree reversal
of the truth, done in plain sight.
We all know what we saw, and yet
Ruppert et al just say no, up is
down and black is white.
And I suspect most of them really
believe it.
Disaster relief is the responsibility of the Feds.
The states are first responders and Louisiana failed.
As for the "Mandatory" Evacuation.. it's not an evacuation if you encourage people to stay in the town (in the Superdome), instead of leaving the town.
The Feds fucked up.
Big time.
Now suck on it, you mongrel idiot.
steve simels
More or less. In a disaster, the federal government takes over coordinating the response with state and local agencies.
The reason is because wide-spread distruction that knocks out infrastructure including transportation and utilties like electricity and communication systems renders disaster plans coordinated at the local level basically useless.
The idea that one local government or state government could have managed the unprecedented magnitude of Hurricane Katrina, the most devasting natural disaster in US history that caused major distruction in four states is just asinine.
No wonder only a troll would think this way.
I'm old enough to remember when
Brooklyn had functioning trolley
cars. They were pretty cool.
Just saying....
Troll feeders enable them
Prior Aelred
They can't live on ridicule, it's fatal to them.
If they get you to engage them, they've succeeded in the appointed task.
Al Swearengen | 09.17.05 - 2:41 pm
Don't know how mant times this has been said....
And ignored.
I have increasing diminished respect for the chronic troll responders. But, hey. If thats the way most of regs here want it, then.....
.
Since NO was built by the French, then I think we should hire the cheese eating surrender monkeys to take part in designing the rebuild.
Also bring in the Dutch to teach us a thing or two about levees. Also create an Amsterdam type trolley system since both cities are below sea level and an underground system would probably be useless or at least cost prohibitive.
"Ideally, transit improvements would be made in those areas which already have sufficient density. Los Angeles is one of the best candidates, as its basic layout grew up around the old streetcar system and still is quite a dense city relative to most of the rest of the sun belt car cities."
Yes, but do you know where your water is?
I agree that the definition of a corporation as an artificial person was a terrible decision by SCOTUS that has done great harm to the REAL PEOPLE of this nation (& I say this as a member of a non-profit corporation in the state of Michigan)
Late to the thread, and not enough time to catch up, but can I ask a REALLY stupid question that some scientific-type person might could answer?
I've seen that a big argument against hyrdrogen cars is the mass building of hydro-fueling stations to make accessibility feasible.
So my REALLY dumb question is: if these cars emit only water as their output, after the oxy-hydro gobbledegook action that creates the fuel to move it, why is it that they can only take in hydro and emit water? Can't there be a complementary process that puts in water, separates hydro and oxy, does whatever it does, and still emit only water (Which it could then recycle back into pre-fuel)????
I am no scientific type person but I have just never understood why this would be a problem, esp w/ the prevalence of water, which it seems would only need distilling to serve as a good pre-fuel source of hydrogen.
Speaking of mass transit and NYC --
One of the things that really
burned my ass Guiliani was how
he was always bragging about lowering
taxes, at the same time the
subway fare was going up.
Hey, asswipe, for most working stiffs
who rely on mass transit, a fare
hike IS a tax increase.
I'm a huge fan of Utah Phillips. If you ever listen to him talking about public transportation, it's a great insight into why we've become so polarized as a country.
He'd wax poetically about how people would actually talk (not troll) about what was going on in the world. Now that most people spend all of their time commuting alone, there is no exchange...exept to call into some loud, boring talk show.
We can't talk about issues because we don't talk to each other. Social interaction is becoming less personal. Sure, we can go to each other's web sites and get a glimpse of what somebody is like. But we don't talk to people -- we talk at people.
Neighborhoods were once a great thing. Now they're "communities" -- planned development that sucks anything unique out of their surroundings. Neighborhoods acted a de facto collectives...looking out for each other and helping folks that were hurting.
We've lost all of that.
hydrogen takes lots of energy to create in a usuable form for vehicles
Since NO was built by the French, then I think we should hire the cheese eating surrender monkeys to take part in designing the rebuild.
NOT the guy who designed the Centre Pompidou, though. Suspect he's dead anyway.
As for the "Mandatory" Evacuation.. it's not an evacuation if you encourage people to stay in the town (in the Superdome), instead of leaving the town.
Gary Ruppert
Apples and oranges. You said Nagin never called for an evacuation, period. You were proved wrong.
You are also wrong that people were "encouraged" to go to the Superdome:
From the Times-Picayune:
"Nagin said the domes availability to residents doesnt mean that going there is a good idea.
I want to emphasize, the first choice of every citizen should be to leave the city, he said. He noted that the Dome is likely to be without power for days and possibly weeks after the storm fits, and said it will not be a comfortable place.
At the same time, the mayor said, going to the dome is a better option than staying home. Many homes are likely to suffer serious damage and flood."
Yes, but do you know where your water is?
John Farr | Email | Homepage | 09.17.05 - 3:01 pm | #
Forget it, Jake, it's Chinatown....
I have increasing diminished respect for the chronic troll responders. But, hey. If thats the way most of regs here want it, then.....
Incog is a troll as far as I'm concerned...
Re-HICA, folx.
.
Re-HICA, folx.
Erm, isn't that redundant?
"Troll feeders enable them
Prior Aelred
They can't live on ridicule, it's fatal to them.
EPT | 09.17.05 - 2:58 pm | #"
Actually, puns & recipes seem to be the best troll repellent -- many seem to be too stupid to recognize ridicule
Don't have any links, but I am sure internet savy people can find them, but we read a book in refectory that told how the car companies bought the trolly car systems in this country & then dismantled them to improve car sales (the free market is not the best solution to all problems -- there was a reason for regulated public utilities -- the openness of the system prevented the gross abuses of Enronization)
Hi,
Check out the latest Political Comics at The Hollywood Liberal
Dont You Know Who I Am?
HLs Blog
If you like it there are lots more at. HLs Comic Feature Page
Thank You
Re-HICA, folx.
This makes it sound like you have the HICAups, Jeffraham. Morning (afternoon, whatever).
Just looking around to see if it's going to get as obnoxy as it did last night.
esp w/ the prevalence of water
Sadly, no.
Way back when I used to play in dives, we found out that short of the bass player wacking a heckler with his fender embarassing them was the most effective way to shut them up.
Of course if they started getting rough they would get bounced.
Eli: Erm, isn't that redundant?
Indeed, it is. But I got your attention! Neener-neener-neener!
.
we read a book in refectory that told how the car companies bought the trolly car systems in this country & then dismantled them to improve car sales
I'm all in favor of dismantling trollies.
Prior Aelred :
I don't have the documentation at
my fingertips, but seem to recall
reading that the big reason trolleys
(which are non-pulluters, obviously,
and very energy efficient) were
phased in favor of buses in most
cities was because the tire companies
put the fix in.
Can't sell tires to trolley car
companies....
Hey, HL stopped by to spam us again! How very kind.
Indeed, it is. But I got your attention! Neener-neener-neener!
Great Scott! Jeffro has crossed over to The Dark Side!
Anyone who can hit Gary Ruppert with a Fender bass should do so right now. One of the really big, really heavy ones.
Just looking around to see if it's going to get as obnoxy as it did last night.
And me with no Obnoxyclean.
I'm sure Gordo will be around with the Obnoxycuntin' soon enough, tho.
matthew, thanks for response, but it's kinda high on the brevity side . . .
so where does they hydro come from to power the concept cars?
The states are first responders and Louisiana failed.
Ah, I've heard the 'first responders' stuff from other trolls. Clearly the latest talking point. Never mind the federal disaster declaration that gives the Feds the primary responsibility. You can expect them to get off their asses and do their jobs, can you?
As for the "Mandatory" Evacuation.. it's not an evacuation if you encourage people to stay in the town (in the Superdome), instead of leaving the town.
It was part of the fucking plan, which assumed that FEMA would do its fucking job. How can you be so dense?
Taxing gasoline to fund mass transit has always been a good idea, but I agree with Atrios, if it was a loser at a buck a gallon, it hasn't got much future at three bucks.
The good news: If enough people get into public transportation, gas prices will go down. Maybe not much, but that small spread may be the tax opportunity.
Of course, in a year of two, we'll be looking back and saying we should have carved out a mass transit tax when gas prices were "only" three bucks a gallon.
In my new New Orleans, I will build a transportation and energy foci for the 21st century.
New research and development sites which feed utra-modern and energy efficient manufacturing.
Since the government is footing the bill, the people will own the means of production.
Surpluses will be used for health and education. Green areas and bike paths will encourage a healthy life style.
Blacks and other minorities will be limited by the few lowpaying jobs that remain. (ie lawn boys).
Eh, not so much. Not a whole lot of ambulatory creatures, but lots of anenomes and barnacle-y things. Also some crabs and green things what look like trilobites.
Close enough for me!
A politically viable, progressive method of raising the gas tax:
1. Raise gas tax by $1 per gallon
2. Rebate ~$500/yr for each adult and ~$200/yr for each child.
Net result: only the gas guzzlers, who use more than 500 gallons of gas per year, would pay the tax.
Incog is a troll as far as I'm concerned...
chris/tx
And me with no Obnoxyclean.
I'm sure Gordo will be around with the Obnoxycuntin' soon enough, tho.
Eli, Eli, Eli. Once again, I bow before the Master.
How can you be so dense?
He's paid to?
EPT:
Best response I ever heard to
a heckler was from Richard Belzer.
There was a guy sitting in front
of Belz being a jackass. Guy had
an a shirt open almost to the waist
and shall we say a plethora of
gold chains.
Belz looked at him and said:
"Excuse me, sir, what are you --
an Aztec pimp?"
Silleigh: This makes it sound like you have the HICAups, Jeffraham.
Yes'm -- going on five years, actually.
Morning (afternoon, whatever).
Here in the People's Republican of Middle Tennessee, it's 2:06 p.m.
Just looking around to see if it's going to get as obnoxy as it did last night.
I wasn't here -- I had a date! Wow, how many flat-broke, unemployed, paint-speckled middle-aged dudes do you know who can get a last-minute date with a fabulous babe (who bought the drinks!) on a Friday night?
.
They can't live on ridicule, it's fatal to them.
EPT - 2:58 pm
Oh, now, EPT, you know that isn't true! Trolls are manifestly impervious to being mocked down or reasoned down. Even if they suddenly disappear, apparently fleeing in discomfiture, they pop up like Weebles with the exact same arguments and stances all too soon.
Hey, I'm down with the belief that trolls/assclowns are best ignored! I was just trying to summarize contrary views upthread.
And note that, as in other areas, the "abstinence" argument is simply unwelcome and unrealistic or unsatisfying to many.
Yet I am not without sin; I don't as a rule directly engage trolls, but like Tena, I occasionally become so annoyed and disgusted that I post a snarky comment insulting and deriding them.
Which makes this comment topical, because in discussions about mass transit, deriding is crucial.
Incog is a troll as far as I'm concerned...
chris/tx
I like incog most of the time, and I ignore him when he goes on a rant.
Which makes this comment topical, because in discussions about mass transit, deriding is crucial.
Oh yes, we must maximize deridership.
Eli: Great Scott! Jeffro has crossed over to The Dark Side!
Come, have a look at my etchings.
.
Ah, I've heard the 'first responders' stuff from other trolls. Clearly the latest talking point.
First responders are so useful for Republicans, make such colorful backdrops for their photo ops. And if they get uppity they are good diversionary material.
Their families, survivors, are even more useful if they are inconvenient enough to expect compensation.
It's the genius of the marketplace.
Wow, how many flat-broke, unemployed, paint-speckled middle-aged dudes do you know who can get a last-minute date with a fabulous babe (who bought the drinks!) on a Friday night?
One, apparently.
But, then, you're fabulous.
Can't there be a complementary process that puts in water, separates hydro and oxy, does whatever it does, and still emit only water (Which it could then recycle back into pre-fuel)????
What you are trying to describe is a perpetual motion mschine--a physical impossibility.
Combining hydrogen with oxygen to make water is aprocess that yields energy that you can use to run a car.
Conversely, pulling hydrogen atoms off of oxygen atoms to re-generate the hydrogen gas is a process that costs a lot of energy.
According to the second law of thermodynamics, the latter process will always cost more energy than the former will yield, therefore you will always end up with all water and no free hydrogen/oxygen.
The big confusion about hydrogen gas arises from the fact that is that it is not a SOURCE of energy, but merely a TRANFER MEDIUM for energy. As such, it has both advanteges and disadvantages, but it will do exactly nothing to solve our energy problems.
Has everyone seen this?
Blair shocked over BBC Katrina coverage
Tony Blair was shocked by the BBC's coverage of Hurricane Katrina's devastation of New Orleans, describing it as full of hatred of America, Rupert Murdoch, chairman and chief executive of News Corporation, revealed on Friday night.
When Blair dies, the drinks are on me. In some ways, I find him almost more aesthetically and morally repugnant than anyone in BushCo.
Incog is a troll as far as I'm concerned...
chris/tx
I think Incog started out here trolling as Sumwon.
Some days Incog is nice to have around. Other days I want to kill him - but I think he's a feature - he isn't going anywhere.
Never mind the federal disaster declaration that gives the Feds the primary responsibility.
NTodd, do you have a link to that?
I don't remember exactly what issue it was, but about twenty years ago I read an article in Smithsonian magazine about the light rail system available in the US around 1900. According to the article, you could actually almost cross the country by light rail. IIRC, there were only two spots, both in the Western US, where you couldn't make some kind of connection -- two gaps of about a hundred miles each. Apparently, in 1900, companies, counties, and municipalities used to use light rail, sometimes working on the underused heavier rail lines, sometimes on dedicated light rail lines, to connect small towns to one another.
Mass transit folks need to think big. Light rail schemes are usually quite modest so that it never gets to be convenient for most people to go most places by rail.
in the long run, we're going to need investment on the scale of what it took to build the highway system. Unfortunately, it's going to be a while before that alarming message gets through.
Some days Incog is nice to have around. Other days I want to kill him - but I think he's a feature - he isn't going anywhere.
One hopes that String scratches him to death.
Trolls are manifestly impervious to being mocked down or reasoned down.
Ok, it makes them sad.
Belz looked at him and said:
"Excuse me, sir, what are you --
an Aztec pimp?"
steve simels
Great line. Unfortunately in the places I played we'd have to show an educational film before they'd get the Aztec part.
Pimp? Those joints made Bill's Beerhall in Bilbao look classy.
Phila - about Blair - I agree.
He makes me sick.
I think Incog started out here trolling as Sumwon.
He used to get banned a lot. And always thought Robert Joseph was responsible for outing Valerie, right?
He pretends to be drunk and then stirs up trouble. Prolly isn't even gay.
But, he is a fixture.
Jeffraham-Damn! Sounds like things are looking up.
I am confused as to morning/afternoon after failing to roll outta bed until 1 or so, and still feeling like I got hit by a weapon of mass transit. (Weak effort to stay on topic. I like this topic, though. Discovered several months ago that it would take 3 bus changes and still a heap o' walking to commute to work without a car, 5 miles away -- feh.)
* * *
Yet I am not without sin; I don't as a rule directly engage trolls, but like Tena, I occasionally become so annoyed and disgusted that I post a snarky comment insulting and deriding them.
Same here, Little Brø'. Last night I wanted to fucking strangle Gordon for all that cut and paste shit and the bulldog refusal to STFU. It doesn't usually get to me that badly (and human nature being what it is, I can usually rely on someone else to smack down the trolls in pithier language than I could).
The states are first responders and Louisiana failed.
The President's own homeland security directive says that the feds are in charge when asked to be (they were), and when "federal interests" are involved (they were).
It also says the DHS is responsible for implementing state-level planning and training for disasters, a responsibility they ignored.
Case closed. Sorry.
Thers - here.
I'll pay for your planefare.
Eli
And I'll spring for a limo ride to the airport.
Stinky
I'll contribute some elitist chardonnay for you to sip when you are done. Perhaps some strawberries dipped in chocolate as well.
I like Incog. He's like a strange lamp you grow to like. He's one of a kind. Thank heavens.
Tena - He was also "Sick of it all". You, myself, and many other ran him off after his racist Arab comments.
And yeah, he can be okay at times. But most of the time lately he has been an asshole. Seriously, why would you live in one of the US's most homophobic cities if you were a gay adult? I don't buy the crap about family.
I lived in College Station (A&M) and Dubai. Could not get out of either quick enough. If you don't like where you live, then get the fuck out of there. The guy seems to enjoy his misery.
pie: One, apparently.
Yeah. But I tried to talk her out of it. She had to drive in from Clarksville, and even though gas prices are on the slow slide down, it's still averaging about $2.88/gal. here. Clarksville is about an hour away.
But, then, you're fabulous.
Aw, well, thanks. But I'm not, really. I'm just blessed, in that some seem to think so.
We had a great time last night. We were out until after 2:00, and I stayed up so she could call me when she got back home @ 3:00.
.
According to the article, you could actually almost cross the country by light rail.
Then Henry Ford and others did their thing. America became fat and sassy and disconnected.
As for disconnected, you'd think it would have been the other way around.
pie - Incog may or may not be gay, but he sure is queer.
Pimp? Those joints made Bill's Beerhall in Bilbao look classy.
EPT | 09.17.05 - 3:19 pm | #
Worst place I ever played had
a stage area that also doubled
as a cat box.
Show biz, I love it!
"Mass transit folks need to think big. Light rail schemes are usually quite modest so that it never gets to be convenient for most people to go most places by rail."
The reason that it's modest is because of the cost. The line here in Minneapolis cost between $600-800 Million. It has to start small, show its value, then expand.
We've started with 12 miles from downtown Minneapolis to the (fucking) mall of america, with plans to expand over here to St. Paul, and connect to a commuter train that is being built in the northwest suburbs of Mpls.
It takes time. But it is so worth it.
why would you live in one of the US's most homophobic cities if you were a gay adult? I don't buy the crap about family.
And of course he used to say he was leaving the US because it was too homophobic. See ya, wouldn't want to be ya...
NTodd, do you have a link to that?
Thers
Here.
It's a link to the White House site, so you may want to disinfect yourself afterwards.
We had a great time last night. We were out until after 2:00, and I stayed up so she could call me when she got back home @ 3:00.
Southern gentlemen ::swoon::
Tena sez:
I think Incog started out here trolling as Sumwon.
I don't know about that. I recall Sumwon being a true troll. Incog was "Mars Spirit Rover" for awhile.
As long as he's not on the sauce I like him fine. But the boy's got issues.
.
Worst place I ever played had
a stage area that also doubled
as a cat box.
I played in an underground beer tank measuring about 10 x 15, with no windows or air.
But I'm not, really. I'm just blessed, in that some seem to think so.
Sweetheart, we do, and she does (the latter opinion being more relevant, of course).
He's one of a kind. Thank heavens.
Yeah. I have a soft spot to for gay racists.
Incog is a troll as far as I'm concerned...
chris/tx
Incog is the classic Jekyll/Hyde poster.
When he is sober, he contributes quite a bit to the discussion.
When he is drunk, he becomes an incredibly tedious one-note samba.
Either that, or it's all an act that he puts on, but I don't really think so.
Anyway, even at his worst he is not nearly as bad as Gordo, Ruppert, scroll troll (Ba'al protect us!), Multiple Schizoid Fuckwit, Hat, or Cog. Those people should really just be ignored, although I must admit I don't always do the best job of following my own advice in this matter.....
"The Bilbao Song".
Just discovered that it works to get "The Happening" to stop running over and over in your head.
Got to go. I wish you a good evening, my friends. Trolls, get bent.
Incog was "Mars Spirit Rover" for awhile.
That was after sumwon.
Here in Ohio I've seen many interesting mass transit proposals linking up communities throughout the state and with PA, MI and IN. I think it would be wonderful to take an Inter-urban line into town or to the city or to vacation locations here and in other states. It could be terrific for tourism, too. And people don't necessarily have to drive to endline stations if coordinated bus lines, from full-size buses to vans -- determined by usage are part of the mix.
Jeffraham:
She was buying?
I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy!
But don't forget the old Beatnik
maxim:
The enlightened bohemian is he whose
woman works.
Mass Transit takes up more gas than our current set up
Now I am convinced that this asshole throws stupid shit out there just to get noticed.
NO ONE can believe such a stupid thing!
Repubs hate mass transit because it goes against the 'ownership society' crap. Poor people that can't afford cars use mass transit. If we're all connected with mass transit 'they' will have easy access to the 'nice' neighborhoods, and everything will go to hell.
.
Electrolysis(the splitting of water into its component Oxygen And Hydrogen gases) is an energy-intensive process, and its expense it the current reason there isn't a glut of hydrogen fuel.
Then there's the historical instability of gaseous hydrogen (remember the Hindenburg?). For the time being, hydrogen cars are pie-in-the-sky straw men. Created by GM and W to makes us salivate.
About Blair: me three
I didn't take much notice of Blair before 9/11, except in the vague way in which one categorizes a foreign politician as a "good guy".
I thought of him as a Clinton analogue, I guess-- an opportunistic centrist, ergo necessarily a bullshitter, but possessed of real intellect beneath his charm and realistically engaged in government apart from being politically astute.
I wonder if his biographers, if he and the rest of us last long enough to have them, will support my sense that Blair had a true Faustian moment, in which Dubya led him to the mountaintop and said, "Join with me, and all this can be yours (too)!"
Because it certainly seems as if that's what happened. Blair made the deal and over time has devolved into a Wormtongue aping his dark master.
(For fellow LOTR aficionados, like Boromir if he'd gotten the Ring.)
He's one of a kind.
He's someone on the internet who changes personalities.
He's a character. But he's not an honest one.
Other Rasmussen numbers: 62% of Americans approve of Bush's response to Katrina. 68% of Americans disapprove of Ray Nagin's response to Katrina.
Gary Ruppert
Numbers you got from a freeper board, I', sure.
Or from the voices in your head.
Tony Blair was shocked by the BBC's coverage of Hurricane Katrina's devastation of New Orleans, describing it as full of hatred of America,
Fuck that asshole. WTF happened to him? I used to admire him but he is nothing more than a clown anymore. The coverage wasn't "full of hatred of America," Bu$h's response was.
spork - sumwon had the same issues, if you'll recall.
But it's not important, really, whether he was or wasn't.
he's regular, drunk or sober.
steve simels: Worst place I ever played had
a stage area that also doubled
as a cat box.
I'm having trouble conceptualizing that. The floor was covered in litter and, er, cat refuse?
I actually played in an honest-to-Ba'al chickenwire bar once, in Ft. Gay, WV. "Go to the middle of the bridge and take a right" -- only those who've been to Ft. Gay will understand that.
.
NTodd & Phila, thanks.
Repubs hate mass transit because it goes against the 'ownership society' crap.
And it's bad for the oil bidness.
I don't know what Incog's story is. I think he thinks he's being "challenging" or "edgy"...the gay Valerie Solanas, assuming he's actually gay.
His racist schtick is intolerable, though thank heavens I haven't seen it in a while.
I used to argue with him...I just take it in stride or tune it out these days. Like most people, I guess. He does have his own little fan club, though.
Then there's the historical instability of gaseous hydrogen
Actually, hydrogen gas is a fair bit less explosive than gasoline.
The coverage was full of how Bush fucked up the emergency - but I have no idea what Blair is talking about unless he equates America with George W Bush. And if that's so, then Blair is a worse idjit than I was giving him credit for.
And what the fuck - do we go around talking about British press coverage of things that happen in Britain? It's none of Tony Blair's fucking business how our media treats things.
sumwon had the same issues, if you'll recall.
I barely remember Sumwon -- he was around about the time I found this place. Didn't he go on endlessly about the Skull & Bones thing?
Anyway, Full Moon is over with sometime today. Maybe some of the tension around here will dissipate with it.
blerb --
Thanks for that clarification -- it was thinking of the perpetual motion analogy myself
I am also thinking that nuclear power has a future no matter what our opinion of nuclear wate storage might be
I think solar & wind & (dare I say it?) biofuels are great & electricity can be used for most ground transportation, but to fly, some form of jet fuel or something like it is going to be needed
Numbers you got from a freeper board, I', sure.
Indeed. What a load. The highest number out there is the CNN/Gallop poll (notoriously 5% higher for GOP) an that is 46%. Freepers hat reality so they just make shit up.
So Gary wants to be a conservative Republican president.
As in fiscally responsible, believing in limited government, and respecting all provisions of the Bill of Rights (especially those pesky 9th and 10th Amendments)?
Or did he mean "neocon," which is "novel" and "consersative" in the same way Nazis were "national" and "socialist?" (Which is to say, not at all...)
Jeffraham:
I guess there was litter under the
stage, but the cats clearly weren't
picky.
In any case, it just stank of cat piss and
shit.
God I loved show biz!
He does have his own little fan club, though
That's my point. Do the people in his "fan club" put up with racist? I don't care if someone has some decent qualities if they are a racist. Sure Tom DeLay may be funny at times, but that does not mean I want to have anything to do with him.
Actually, puns & recipes seem to be the best troll repellent -- many seem to be too stupid to recognize ridicule
They are dense.
I mean, I have feminazi next to my name as a dig as Rush Limpdick.
All you Atriots know that.
I've had two trolls think I "hate Jews" because of it.
How STUPID is THAT?
sumwon had the same issues, if you'll recall.
True, that. I'd forgotten.
Oh, well. Incog isn't going anywhere.
[shrug]
How 'bout a song?
(Yes, I'm shameless.)
.
bigvic -- Tony Blair is scared shitless. It's as simple as that.
The reason rail will come back, no matter what: the traffic, stupid. The biggest cost in a lot of places isn't the price of gas, it's time. People are getting sick and tired of being stuck in their cars listening to Rush (Limbaugh) or even Rush (2112). It's a waste, it costs businesses money, it's hard on individual's health, and people, where they can, won't take it any more. Like I said on another thread, driving sucks.
the gay Valerie Solanas, assuming he's actually gay.
I must admit, I kinda had a soft
spot for her, homicidal nutjob
that she was.
"The SCUM Manifesto" was actually
pretty funny.
That said, I saw her on a subway
platform once, and I quickly away
from her general direction, if you
know what I mean.
Actually, puns & recipes seem to be the best troll repellent -- many seem to be too stupid to recognize ridicule
And cat talk.
.
Freepers hate reality so they just make shit up.
bigvic
They just do not want to admit that their hero/war preznit is a miserable failure!
Prior Aelred - On nuclear power - I agree. The rest of the world is using it to great affect. I know the waste is a problem, but all waste is a problem, really - a growing problem.
Wish we could figure out how to vaporize garbage and trash.
Recipes and puns are capitulation.
Ridicule is lost on trolls because they don't have the minimum requirements to even know they're being made fun of.
The only effective response to trolls that I've seen here or in any discussion area is ignoring them completely. Once they are identified with a simple "Toby is a troll" then not a single word should be spent on them. Not one.
A variation on ignoring is referring to the trolls in messages to other posters, but never, ever, addressing them directly. Even this might be giving too much to the trolls' egos, so I'm thinking completely ignoring them is best.
I'm willing to try it if y'all are.
Freepers hate reality so they just make shit up.
bigvic
They just do not want to admit that their hero/war preznit is a miserable failure!
Why does reality hate America?
I am also thinking that nuclear power has a future no matter what our opinion of
nuclear waste storage might be
Prior -- man, I hope not. That
stuff is simply terrifying.
And bait for terrorists, incidentally.
if he and the rest of us last long enough to have them, will support my sense that Blair had a true Faustian moment, in which Dubya led him to the mountaintop and said, "Join with me, and all this can be yours (too)!"
Word. How farking brilliant can Blair be to hitch his strat to a moronic sociopath luke Shrub?
JD:
And let's not forget what PARKING costs in some places.
(Tena, I just noticed, you're all nicely gravved-up now!)
Blair had a true Faustian moment, in which Dubya led him to the mountaintop and said, "Join with me, and all this can be yours (too)!"
All what?
The world being destroyed?
Recipes and puns are capitulation.
How are they capitulation? They're completely ignoring the trolls, and they're topics the trolls are completely incapable of participating in.
cs --
I would love to see light rail throughout the MI, IN, OH, PA area -- can't believe it will happen -- I remember some 20-30 years back when they were pushing the "3 C" concept to link Cincy, Columbus & Cleveland -- since it couldn't be done for free, the Ohio Lege would touch it
Other Rasmussen numbers: 62% of Americans approve of Bush's response to Katrina. 68% of Americans disapprove of Ray Nagin's response to Katrina.
Well, I just said I didn't think people should respond to trolls, but this one is promulgating outright lies, so to correct the record, I paste directly from the Rasmussen site:
While 36% say the federal government has done a good or an excellent job, just 31% say the same about the response of state and local governments. The Rasmussen Reports poll found that 33% view the state and local response as fair. Thirty-four percent (34%) say poor.
Thirty-nine percent (39%) of Americans say that President Bush has done a good or an excellent job handling the Katrina crisis. Twenty-eight percent (28%) say the same for New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin.
While 36% say the federal government has done a good or an excellent job, just 31% say the same about the response of state and local governments. The Rasmussen Reports poll found that 33% view the state and local response as fair. Thirty-four percent (34%) say poor.
Thirty-nine percent (39%) of Americans say that President Bush has done a good or an excellent job handling the Katrina crisis. Twenty-eight percent (28%) say the same for New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin.
...Sixty-seven percent (67%) of now say the federal response to Katrina has been good or excellent. That's up from 47% in the earlier survey.
Among Democrats, just 18% say the federal government has done a good or an excellent job. Sixty percent (60%) say poor.
There is less of a partisan gap on the response of state and local governments. Thirty-one percent (31%) of Republicans say the state and local response was good or excellent. That view is shared by 30% of Democrats. Thirty-nine percent (39%) of Republicans and 35% of Democrats say the response was poor
So as to where Ruprecht got these numbers, apparently he pulled them out of his fat ass.....
Anyone who's been involved with the D.C. metro knows that some of the outlying communities (e.g. Barnesville MD) were only allowed to develop high density areas on the premise that there would be transit sytems for the residents to use getting into D.C. Of course, those residents then resisted putting in metro development - at that time it was not too hard to drive down I70. Little wonder that immovable gridlocked traffic militates toward moving govt out to the suburbs now.
I'm willing to try it if y'all are.
Pope Ratzo | Email | Homepage | 09.17.05 - 3:40 pm | #
Hey, I'm not asking them to blow
anymore?
What the hell else do you want?
Why does reality hate America?
Eli
Why do freepers, trolls and Repugs hate America?
steve simels: She was buying?
I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy!
Me neither -- but as I said, I did try to talk her out of it. We're just really good friends, getting a bit closer, perhaps... but I have to remind her how dire my predicament is.
If I had a place in Clarksville, she could get me a job, though. She's the HR director at an unnamed, evil retailer, there.
But don't forget the old Beatnik
maxim:
The enlightened bohemian is he whose
woman works.
I'm all for partnerships, but I haven't been able to make my end of the deal happen for 2+ years. Going from $60k-$0/year is kinda... depressing.
.
Other Rasmussen numbers: 62% of Americans approve of Bush's response to Katrina. 68% of Americans disapprove of Ray Nagin's response to Katrina.
I/O/W:
I don't like the truth, so I'm going to make up numbers to suit my own view of things!
Have any Dems talked about BushCo as being a fellator to Big Oil lately?
Gary--I'm about ready for a Conservative president, too, because the assclown we've got doesn't appear to know the meaning of the word.
CEA
And I have a Rightwing friend who agrees with that...
" Poor people that can't afford cars use mass transit."
I don't see how it's much cheaper then a car...
The old lady is always tryin to get me to take the bus. Last week we went to a Tribe game...took 15 minutes to get there by car and parked 3 blocks away for $3. Was home just as quick.
If we woulda taken a bus, we woulda been out at least the $3 plus hours of time waiting for and the bus trip itself.
The last time I ever got in a bus was for the JK rally in downtown Cleveland the night before the election. After the rally, the bus that was suppossed to show never did...ended up paying a cab $20 to get home. Fuck shitty mass transit.
Wish we could figure out how to vaporize garbage and trash.
Tena
And wingers!
I am also thinking that nuclear power has a future no matter what our opinion of
nuclear waste storage might be
Prior -- man, I hope not. That
stuff is simply terrifying.
And bait for terrorists, incidentally.
We'd be fighting the terrorists at the nuclear waste dumps so we wouldn't have to fight them here! It's brilliant!
JD, Terry --
Here in Salt Lake (where prevailing thought is that only losers take mass transit -- but I'm used to being called a loser), mass transit is finally seeing some success. Disgust with commute times and downtown policies that make it a stone bitch to park seem to be the driving forces, along with adding a light rail system.
Now if only we can do something to change the SLC metro area from being the least pedestrian friendly place I've ever been -- worse than D/FW and Los Angeles.
That is exactly what Paul Tsongas proposed in the 88 Dem primary (NH). Gas was about $1.10 a gal back then and he proposed a 50 cent fed tax with all rev going to build our infrastructure and pay down the debt. He was piloried for it. So I think the supposition that this would have been politically possible at $1.00 a gal is folly.
I'm all for partnerships, but I haven't been able to make my end of the deal
happen for 2+ years. Going from $60k-$0/year is kinda... depressing.
.
Jeffraham Prestonian
I know the feeling, pal.
" Poor people that can't afford cars use mass transit."
I don't see how it's much cheaper then a car...
It's not just individual trips, though. It's everything else: maintenance, repairs, insurance, all that. If one big car-repair bill hits you when you live paycheck to paycheck, you're screwed if you depend on your car to get you to where you make the money to be able to afford to keep the car running and legal.
Wish we could figure out how to vaporize garbage and trash.
Tena
And wingers!
Redundant.
steve simels --
I used to be with you on nukes precisely on the waste issue -- argued with a friend who worked for Commonwealth Edison on that very point -- however, global warming is destroying the planet -- every form of generating energy except wind & solar & nuclear contributes to global warming
It was a post by Mark A.R. Kleiman (who I always find worth reading) that persuaded me that there is a nuclear future (there is alrwady so damned much military nuclear waste that power plant stuff would not add that much -- the really hot stuff doesn't take up more space than a swimming pool & it keeps cooling off -- genrations? yup, but that's going to be somebody else's problem & without energy there isn't going to be anyone around to have the problem)
They just do not want to admit that their hero/war preznit is a miserable failure!
Heh. Some locals were interviewd by our local paper for a story on Bu$h's declining poll numbers. Here are the reasons the supporters gave for hearting W:
1. The war in Iraq is keeping us safe from terrorists. 2. The people in Iraq are greatful they we have *freed* them. 3. He's a Christian man.
We have more than our share of fools here.
Wish we could figure out how to vaporize garbage and trash.
Tena
And wingers!
Same thing, really...
A sight for learning more about corporate personhood and restoring citizen authority over them.
If we woulda taken a bus, we woulda been out at least the $3 plus hours of time waiting for and the bus trip itself.
jdw
It's like the single Mom who, with limited $, can't afford the big and cheaper per lb package of pork chops, so she has to buy the smaller more expensive per lb package. Cheaper in the short run but not in the long run.
.
(Is it whoring if you have no connnection with the person/thing you're whoring for?)
Anyway, repeating myself -- Pat Bagley, best thing to come out of UT (almost enough to make up for Orrin Hatch), is releasing a wonderfully vicious book next Saturday -- "Clueless George Goes to War."
It's been hard to find info on the web about it -- but Sam Weller's Bookstore (http://www.samwellers.com/) will be carrying it.
bigvic: We have more than our share of fools here.
I'm not buying any more shares of fool at this point.
.
So as to where Ruprecht got these numbers, apparently he pulled them out of his fat ass.....
blerb
I think Rupe the Dupe is using Republican ratings and calling them American. For things like the Rupe, only Rethugs count as Amurkuns.
BTW, wingers have focused on the NOLA evac plan and the magical flying buses, but I just found the LA State evac plan (PDF). Some choice snips:
The Greater New Orleans Metropolitan Area represents a difficult evacuation problem due to the large population and its unique layout.
...
The road systems used for evacuations are limited, and many of the roadways are near bodies of water and susceptible to flooding.
...
Manpower and equipment of the political subdivisions will be exhausted and outside support will be needed.
...
As a hurricane approaches land, high winds and rising water will affect
evacuation routes, making travel hazardous. Evacuation orders will
take this into account and provide for evacuation routes to be closed at
the point at which travel would become hazardous.
As evacuation routes are closed, people who are still in the risk area will be directed to last resort refuge within the area.
(Tena, I just noticed, you're all nicely gravved-up now!)
Took me long enough.
jules - love your hummingbird.
Prior:
Interestingly, the whole nuke
industry has always been a scam.
Think about it -- back in the 50s,
we were awash in cheap oil. What the
hell did we nuclear power for?
Answer: the only financially
viable way to process weapons grade
stuff for the warheads (which we
didn't really need, of course, either) was
was to have something to do
with the
stuff left over.
Hence, unnecessary,
and potentially lethal nuke plants.
And BTW, if you think NOLA is
bad, try vacationing in scenic
Chernobyl..
Never learned how to drive.
Never had any desire to learn.
Give me directions and a bus or train schedule and I will get there.
If it can't be reached by mass transmit, it's not worth the trouble.
And as for corporations having a right to free speech - well that's just perverted. That whole idea of the personhood of corporations is perverted.
Tena
I was listening to the BBC world service this AM. Caught part of an interview with a guy who said: (paraphrasing) What we have done with corporations is create powerful psychopaths. Their only goal is to make money. Nothing else really matters to them
You know peeps, I have never seen a candidate who said he was going raise taxes win a race. Name one. When Kerry honestly told people he would roll back the tax cuts, or not make them permanent, I knew deep in my heart, that he would lose.
I used to work pretty hard to get school budgets passed, and it was always a struggle. Several times the budgets failed and we had to re-submit after grounding the buses. It was the only way to get people to come out and vote for their own children's education.
Wish we could figure out how to vaporize garbage and trash.
Shoot it into the Sun!
Ridicule is lost on trolls because they don't have the minimum requirements to even know they're being made fun of.
Indeed. Gordo is clearly convinced that I advocate BRUTALLY RAPING MALKIN WITH A LIGHTSABRE. Denser than lead...
You know peeps, I have never seen a candidate who said he was going raise taxes win a race. Name one.
Well, there was Mondale...oh, wait...
Silleigh has got it -- it is not the individual trips, it is the cost of the car
The folks I stayed with in Philly were members of a car share system where you could book a car for several hours for use in the city (or environs) for a certain flat fee -- the organizers seem to be be very clever on the ratio of cars to members -- but the main thing is the lack of the cost of the car, insurance, maintence, storage & gasoline
Hi Jeffraham! Glad you had a fun night!
Just know that if I weren't married to the love of my life, several of the male posters here would be in my sights... 
For things like the Rupe, only Rethugs count as Amurkuns.
Toonscribe
Well, gee - then maybe WE should stop paying taxes.
Let's see how Cracker Nation would get along without our tax dollars.
They can't live on ridicule, it's fatal to them.
It's food to some of them. A digital form of Cheetos, maybe. Totally ignoring them is the only thing that works. Would work, that is..
You know peeps, I have never seen a candidate who said he was going raise taxes win a race.
Raising Taxes = Eat Your Vegetables.
Indeed. Gordo is clearly convinced that I advocate BRUTALLY RAPING MALKIN WITH A LIGHTSABRE. Denser than lead...
NTodd
I was so SICK of him and that BS.
Same thing over and over and over again.
Like Bush with "September the 11th"!
if you think NOLA is
bad, try vacationing in scenic
Chernobyl..
When I was staying at the Black Sea city of Sochi back in '86, I met a lot of Chernobyl refugees who were staying at the same facility. I wonder how many of them have died since then...
You know peeps, I have never seen a candidate who said he was going raise taxes win a race. Name one.
Well, there was Mondale...oh, wait...
NTodd
"Read my lips...no new taxes!"
Prior Aelred is right about nuclear power.
Sorry, steve, but hell, oil refineries are targets, too. And nuclear power is clean - but for the waste.
And there are corporations (eek!) working on that problem.
We shouldn't argue to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Corporations are not necessarily inherently evil and sometimes private enterprise does come through.
The problem lies, in my opinion, with the government. Regulation is just mandatory for a lot of industries - otherwise, the public is fucked. Socialism has to counter capitalism in order to balance things out.
It's all Reagan's fault to begin with.
Charlotte Smith: Hi Jeffraham! Glad you had a fun night!
Thanks! It was the first time in weeks I was actually glad to be alive, rather than simply being resigned to the fact.
.
Prior Aelred,
nuclear power has a future no matter what...I think solar & wind & (dare I say it?) biofuels are great & electricity can be used for most ground transportation, but to fly, some form of jet fuel or something like it is going to be needed
You raise a lot of issues here.
Nuclear power: Nuclear power is not so much an environmental hazard as a proliferation hazard. While low-enriched uranium is pretty safe as a nuclear fuel, it is not very abundant. If we burned all the naturally occurring U-235 we know about, it would only be enough to supply the world with energy for something like 15 years. If we use that U235 in breeder reactors to make plutonium, though, we could last a pretty long time on that fuel. But plutonium is really, really nasty stuff, and it is easy to make into nuclear weapons. So I don't know if it's really such a good idea if there are other options. As to the overall environmental damage, barring Chernobyl-like events, nuclear power is less destructive than fossil fuel burning. And modern light-water designs are not capable of melting down like Chernobyl did.
solar & wind : Solar is OK, except that making solar panels costs a lot of energy and causes a fair bit of pollution. Passive solar is perhaps better, but the yield is low. Wind is actually pretty good, but it kills a lot of birds and creates an eyesore. Myself, I don't mind the turbines so much, but never underestimate the power of nimbyism.
biofuels: Ethanol from corn sugar is a complete dog. It costs more fuossil fuel energy to make than it yields. It is nothing but a pork-barrel farm subsidy that is worse than useless. That's why GWB likes it so much. On the other hand, if good processes are developed to get ethanol/methanol from cellulose, then we might have a real winner. Varios people, including Craig Venter of Celera fame, are working on ideas for this.
but to fly, some form of jet fuel or something like it is going to be needed: If you have enough energy, making something that would work as jet fuel would not be a big problem.
Anyway, I'm sure this is a dead thread by now, since I spent so much time writing this....
It was the only way to get people to come out and vote for their own children's education.
ql in ny
I love these people who don't want to pay school taxes because they don't have kids attending schools.
They have no problems with their tax money going for an illegal war, though!
Indeed. Gordo is clearly convinced that I advocate BRUTALLY RAPING MALKIN
WITH A LIGHTSABRE. Denser than lead...
NTodd
Actually, I don't think he actually
believes that. I think he just
thinks it's a brilliant rhetorical
device by which he can demonstrate
his superiority to dumb moonbats like
yourself.
Which means, of course, that your
central
point remains well taken --
he is, in fact, denser than lead.
I got a good one for the trolling class ( a sad species self condemned to a life of Corporate Servitude in the deluded pursuit of corporate supremecy at the expense of their souls and our atmosphere)
" Who asked ya? You're on the side of the ones who haven't done anything right yet !Show me something , (other than tax cuts , igniting the Mid East , and flogging people with bibles, those 3 I concede , and well done mind you )anything in the record that makes life better for the people of the country as a whole. No ? Cause you can't !Piss off "
Fact is , we're smarter . They have replaced smart with sleazy , leadership with sales , and the role of government with a crumbling flaming wreck.
Things are so much worse than their pea brains can digest...and unless they are driven from power it will be too late to turn it around. I for one am starting to think the math is running out of options for us , the frogs, the algea and the sky.
The american bald eagle is obese, missing a wing from misguided conflict and bankruptcy, staggering toward a cliff suffering from sevre athsma. And we know who to thank for it .
Taxation is a killer -- everybody wishes that they could pay less for everything - -that they had more money for the things they want
The sad thing is that the people who should be responsible in the budgetary process can't tell the truth without being voted out of office
Remember when Jimmy Carter told us he would never lie to us? He didn't & the American people never forgave him!
Thanks, Tena...I'm become obsessed with the little creatures. Bunches of 'em are now migrating over the Gulf of Mexico and it just amazes me.
Like your flapper!
IIRC the trip out of NO was taking 9-10 hours to get to the nearest city that could take them, 80 miles away, the roads were that crowded. Better to herd the poor people in the Superdome than risk having them blown away on the road.
but the main thing is the lack of the cost of the car, insurance, maintence, storage & gasoline
This is a bit OT, but I've seen two instances lately in my family where insurance for cars goes waaay up if they're not being driven.
Insurer wanted to jack up the cost of insuring my stepmom's car after she DIED, reasoning that the car "was more likely to be vandalized." Same with a now-spare car my ex has after getting a better one for my daughter -- now my ex has dropped the price a bunch just to get rid of the thing.
Whatta racket. Which reminds me, my car insurance is due today.
Most Americans would be glad of the opportunity to sacrifice in the name of the common good. But Bushco and the stintboy Cheney have told us the way to support the common good is to spend spend spend. Some Democrat needs to get up there and say the way to support the common good is to sacrifice and commit the money to transit.
he can demonstrate
his superiority to dumb moonbats like
yourself.
He still thinks "moonbat" is an insult.
Didn't we take that word for our own?
Central Scrutinizer
are you still here?
Thanks! It was the first time in weeks I was actually glad to be alive, rather than simply being resigned to the fact.
.
Jeffraham Prestonian
Aint life grand that way. I swear, 2001 both the chicks left home, 9/11, and my mom, who I had been caring for, passed in January, 2002. I really almost felt like I had no reason for existing and taking up oxygen. Talk about mid-life crisis. Then I found quilting and it has honestly made me a better, happier person.
Take what you get, and enjoy the heck out of it.
but never underestimate the power of nimbyism.
Oh love, I have seen pumping oil wells in peoples' back yards. If it pays, they'll put up with it.
Find a way to make an air turbine pay to have one near you and people will have them.
Terry C sez:
Didn't we take that word for our own?
Heck, I've got a t-shirt that says "moonbat." on the front. As do many here.
Gordo is, as NTodd put it, denser than lead.
.
For those interested in the nuclear power discussion:
Ghost Town -- Elena's motorcycle tour of Chernobyl
sheets
Back on topic, I'm all for mass transit, but from where to where? Doesn't it kind of presume that everyone is working in or going to some centralized location?
Here in my neck of the woods (suburban Phila) NO ONE I know actually works in Philadelphia anymore. They work at DuPont and AstraZeneca in DE, MBNA, Vanguard and QVC and a jillion other places scattered all over the county. The days of my dad getting on the Paoli Local to commute to his job in Center City are long gone, it seems.
Don't know what the answer is.
I am sick to death of hearing about those fucking buses in NOLA. That's all the trolls have squawked about for 2 fucking weeks: The Buses! The Buses!
Enough - even Commander CooCoo Bananas admitted that the federal government fucked up. Now shut the fuck up about the goddamned buses or I swear, Ruppert, I will find you and cram a NOLA bus up your ass.
Tena | Email | Homepage | 09.17.05 - 2:26 pm | #
Liberals advocating anal rape of GOP trolls, with large foreign objects! Film at Eleven!
I love these people who don't want to pay school taxes because they don't have kids attending schools.
We try to tell 'em around here, "Do you want a miseducated moron measuring your medicines?" ...Actually, the stereotype in Florida is that it's the seniors who don't want to fund the schools, but polling seems to indicate otherwise.
You fund the schools even if your kids are in some lovely private school, precisely because you've got a stake in the kind of people who will be living in the world with your kids/grandkids.
Most Americans would be glad of the opportunity to sacrifice in the name of the common good.
I wish it were so, but it aint.
But Terry - aren't you a nazi who advocates rape?
blerb --
I've enjoyed your knowledgable (unlike mine) contributions to the energy discussions -- yeah, I've switched to pro-breeder reactor -- the French can do it -- I used to be completely opposed -- violented opposed -- argued against it with a poor guy in the airport (he started it -- handing out literature on building nuclear power plants in India)
The trouble is that our life style consumes lots of energy (with so many people on the planet, any life style would, but ours really is extravagant) -- I don't see any way forward that does not include nuclear (doesn't mean I'm happy about it)
It was the first time in weeks I was actually glad to be alive, rather than
simply being resigned to the fact.
Without getting all Oprah on you
guys, that's how I felt at
Eschacon.
cs,
For those interested in the nuclear power discussion:
Ghost Town -- Elena's motorcycle tour of Chernobyl
Chernobyl is a red herring in the discussion of nuclear power today. Modern water-moderated nuclear reactors just can't melt down the way Chernobly did. Even Three Mile Island, which was essentially an inconsequential event, can't happen anymore with modern designs.
This is not to sat that there are no issues -- there are. But fearmongering around Chernobyl is attacking a straw man. Chernobyl was an antiquated graphite-moderated reactor design that does not exist in the western world for the purposes of power generation. The Soviets knew better and should have shut it down before it blew up.
New York Times' ombudsmen calls Gail Collins to task for allowing Paul Krugman to get away with more lies:
An Op-Ed columnist for The New York Times who makes an error "is expected to promptly correct it in the column." That's the established policy of Gail Collins, editor of the editorial page. Her written policy encourages "a uniform approach, with the correction made at the bottom of the piece."
Two weeks have passed since my previous post spelled out the errors made by columnist Paul Krugman in writing about news media recounts of the 2000 Florida vote for president. Mr. Krugman still hasn't been required to comply with the policy by publishing a formal correction. Ms. Collins hasn't offered any explanation.
As a result, readers of nytimes.com who simply search for "Krugman" won't find any indication that there are uncorrected errors in the columns the query turns up. Nor will those who access Mr. Krugman's columns in an electronic database such as Nexis or Factiva. Corrections would have been appended in all those places if Mr. Krugman had complied with Ms. Collins' policy and corrected the errors in his column in the print version of The Times. (Essentially, to become part of the official archive of The Times, material has to have been published in the print paper.)
All Mr. Krugman has offered so far is a faux correction. Each Op-Ed columnist has a page in nytimes.com that includes his or her past columns and biographical information. Mr. Krugman has been allowed to post a note on his page that acknowledges his initial error, but doesn't explain that his initial correction of that error was also wrong. Since it hasn't been officially published, that posting doesn't cause the correction to be appended to any of the relevant columns.
...
A bottom-line question: Does a corrections policy not enforced damage The Times's credibility more than having no policy at all?
steve --
EschaCon really was a hell of a lot of fun, wasn't it? We need to do this again!
NYMary! Are you out there?
"If one big car-repair bill hits you when you live paycheck to paycheck, you're screwed if you depend on your car to get you to where you make the money to be able to afford to keep the car running and legal.
Silleigh"
Well, I'm a paycheck to paycheck person. My truck is on its last legs...but it's 15 years old and cost me 7k new. So, outside of the usual gas, parts and insurance, that comes to $50 a month to run. And there ain't no way I could take a bus for that little.
And trains and such suck. At the Prior's advice I looked into taking a train to Eschacon to avoid having to drive/rent a car. I had the choice of going from Cleveland to NY or DC, then to Philly or to go to Pittsburg and then to Philly. The Pittsburgh route meant leaving Cleveland at 1 am to arrive in Philly the next day at 3 fucking PM...and it wasn't cheap, either. I could hitchike and make better time...
I find it a tad askew to discuss any issue of energy consumption and the ones who are going to feel it without first adressing the level of strain.
I'm not panicked that we won't come up with some great new fuel , I am freakin out that we are still driving the global resource chain like it's 1910 and there is enough to go around.
The fact is the dial has to be turned down soon , or the load will simply overwhelm the resources.It means a fundamental shift in how we view our lives ,and it will have to become much more spartan in general just to maintain the quo another 40 years. Everywhere I go in Europe , the lights in the halls go out if no one moves for 10 minutes, because empty rooms with the lights on are killer wasteful. Not in North America , the bities burn away phenominal amounts of light ( re: oil) for absolutely no reason. The issue for me is never whether it's parking around mass transit vs gas tax hikes, it's about we shoulda done something 20 years ago or we will all be sharing a donkey and cart to get to the peat pit to dig our light and heat from the ground.
and that should have read Cities not Bities. The Bities I know burn very little energy or oil .
and as far as atomic waste goes , what about erecting a very tall tower from which atomic fuel rods are compressed into ceramic encased blocks and loaded into small ICBM's and fired into space in a long-circle collision course with the sun? The suns own nuclear output makes the waste the whole world has ever generated look ridiculous every second , and it's fairly safe guess they'd be swalloed up without notice . The fear is in launch error, but perhaps the material is somehow based in a composite that stay intact on impact or each atomic container is equipped with it's own recovery rocket....or something. Ive always wondered why they don't ship it all to the sun. Zoooop...gone.
jdw --
Yup -- that's the train I took -- Amtrak as it is currently set up can't make money or keep to a schedule -- things are better in Europe -- improvements in service improve geometrically (viz., more trains means better connections, lower fares, etc.)
A.Scott --
Sounds good -- Jimmy Carter was telling us this stuff 25 years ago, but responsibility is "hard work" for the American people -- my mother says, "I liked that Reagan [pronunced REE gun] who made us feel so good."
American elections are about electing people who make us feel good
Pope:
The only effective response to trolls that I've seen here or in any discussion area is ignoring them completely. Once they are identified with a simple "Toby is a troll" then not a single word should be spent on them. Not one.
What a simple-minded turd you are. It isn't my fault that you lack the intellectual firepower to put me in my place. But keep on letting us all know how unprepared you are to face the reality of debating the important issues of the day with those you disagree with. It puts you in a hole from which you'll never quite crawl out of.
Did Toby say something? Or was that another ELIZA generated insult?
Well, I'm a paycheck to paycheck person. My truck is on its last legs...but it's 15 years old and cost me 7k new. So, outside of the usual gas, parts and insurance, that comes to $50 a month to run. And there ain't no way I could take a bus for that little.
Why would you calculate the "cost" of a car and discount the very things you need to keep it on the road? I've replaced the transmission, radiator, and a whole bunch of other pieces of my car in 12 years, and had a brake problem that cost about $700 to repair a few months back. Thinking of car costs in terms of purchase cost vs. time you've driven it is missing a huge part of the picture.
If family hadn't helped with the brake job, I WOULD be taking the bus right now. Had I been able to use public transit all these years, I wouldn't have HAD any of the usual or extraordinary car-related expenditures.
It should be clear by now that Americans are not interested in solutions to the inevitable oil crash. They are going to drive their cars until there is no oil left, then get mad at whomever is in office when it happens (unless it's Bush, in which case they will probably blame Osama bin Laden).
I have to agree with the earlier point about Amtrak. I'm planning a trip during which I want to get from Manhattan to Maine without flying; much to my chagrin, I found it's both cheaper and faster to rent a car and drive, than to take the train -- unless I'm willing to leave New York at 4:00 in the morning.
Ridiculous.
I was amazed recently to find that a suburban community near my house had a street car line as recenly as the 1940's.
Lots of communities did in the northeast, to bring people to work at the mills and factories.
Until the diesel bus came along.
now that diesel is losing, the rights of war might be resurrected.
rights of WAY
Suburbia is the worst disaster ever to befall the USA. Oil is at peak production now. No new major oil fields have been discovered since the 1960's. As demand continues to grow, and supply slowly declines, the economies which will suffer the most are the ones which consume the greatest amount of oil per capita. America will be harshly punished for ignoring reality and allowing feel good politics.
If all the CAFE standards and conservation programs put in place by the Carter administration had been continued, the USA would be nearly independent of imported oil, and a damn sight richer.
But Reagan made us feel good. The American people are morons and they like it that way.
Don't know if someone else has mentioned this, but I still think gas would be the best place to start with a Citizen Compensation Assessment. When is a tax not a tax?- when the government doesn't get to spend it.
The CCA idea is pretty simple, although it certainly needs careful oversight and transparency. It works like this: Add a fee to the purchase price. Then distribute the proceeds EQUALLY among all adult citizens.
Since the use of gasoline involves pollution to water, air, and groundwater, since it involves the maintenance of highways, and the destruction of nature to create those highways, and since the public property of the Unites States logically belongs to its citizens, a CCA is an expression of a real "ownership society". And, since those who use the most end up providing money to those who use the least, it acts as an incentive to conserve.
How about it?
You can have designated highway lanes for buses as a start, and increase the frequency and put some (electric) shuttle buses into neighborhoods.
It's a relatively small investment, and yes, they do use fossil fuels but would still be better than single ridership.
They've put in dedicated lanes in dense South American cities and it has worked quite well because you get there faster by bus than you would in the car. In LA, this would be a huge selling point, as it would in the SF Bay Area, and probably Atlanta (from what I've heard.)
The better thing to do is raise the fees to register a car in urban settings. I do not care how much money gets thrown at mass transit, I cannot see a bus running on even hourly intervals on my rural Alabama road.
Inner-city mass transit, in my thinking, doesn't seem to be the way to dip the nation's collective toe into the waters of mass transit. I see tying cities together with high speed train networks as the place to start. As an example, look at a map of the midwest U.S. and pick out the cities of Des Moines, St. Louis, and Kansas City. They form a near equilateral triangle with each city being in reach of the other in less than two hours with the sort of high speed trains that already exist in Japan, England, and France.
The real problem now is that conservatives who have worked very hard to gain all the investment capital, lack any foresight and pioneering spirit that this country needs to remain viable in the coming centuries.
I disagree. I have been calling for an increase in the gas tax for a long time. It is really a matter of how it is phased in.
While many have griped at the increase after Katrina, they still have not fallen to pre-Katrina levels, and I doubt they will. Most will learn to live with it, and this was a SUDDEN increase.
My proposal is to raise the Fed tax on gas and diesel a penny a month for 60 months, or five years. No one, and I mean NO ONE, will notice that they are paying 60 cents more a gallon five years from now.
Maybe even two cents a month. And unlike SSI, securely dedicate the proceeds to mass transit, alternative fuel development, etc.
I'm sure people have said this but this strikes me as a great idea in terms of energy and transportation policies but that it shifts most of the pain towards the poor and middle class.
Speaking of the buses that the conservatives loooooove to harp on (about the only time you'll hear conservatives talk lovingly about buses):
buses in NOLA were inoperable because
">the drivers all evacuated ahead of the storm.
Pass it on! Another Con Bullshit Talking Point is Destroyed!
[I]Los Angeles is one of the best candidates, as its basic layout grew up around the old streetcar system and still is quite a dense city relative to most of the rest of the sun belt car cities.[/I]
Having lived in Tokyo, I was surprised how much it reminded me of LA in its upper-middle level density (Hong Kong and New York are high density on this scale) -- and I was also surprised at how well mass transit worked at moving people around such a city.;
Instead, Nagin never ordered an evacuation of the city.
Gary Ruppert
lmfao!
Hey, why not use the gas tax for something else tham mass/rapid /socially"responsible" things? They do in the EU, just like they do everything else better. Yes, I know they doin't commute so far etc etc, but taxes can be used to +shape behaviour and more importantly, to raise money. See James Howard Kunstler and his clusterfuck. It is a regressive tax, but the morons who pay it elected W twice. Payback is a bitch dudes. And maybe in 2008 your biblically thick skulls will be pierced by the light and you don't vote for Cheney, with the clotted knee. Hey! Dennis Hastert has shown himself to be a repug asshole moron on NO. Quel surprise. And if Dick the Prick goes next week, who is next in line? Who is next after the failed wrestling coach? Not a very deep lineup. Hug your Bibles, FREEDOM loving 'Mericans!
Bruce,
Sorry for the late response, but Salt Lake is indeed a great test case. These are car lovers in SUV country, but given a decent rail choice, they'd rather take rail than drive. I've heard the lament there (and in Denver), "If only they had trains from the airport to the ski areas." Another bonus: rail eliminates that nasty problem of DUIs. (Though I'm sure that's not high on the SLC commuters priority list ).
Improve the mass transit in those areas that allready are suitable rather than trying to introduce it where it isn't practical. Make the transit so good in most urban areas that life that is built around walking and public spaces becomes atractive enough to lure the population back to the city and out of the suburb. If the price of fuel rises high enough this will be quite a magnet. Due to the rise in urban livability compared to suburban slogging around in cars and traffic jams people will eventually even overcome their racism and just plain fear of people they have now.
Atrios is right. Sorry Yglesias, but a gas tax hike would cause revolts here in Dallas. This isn't like the northeast. I'm not driving my car even though I could be riding the subway. The subway (light rail here) is about 15 miles away and doesn't go in the right direction anyway. The buses would add an extra hour of travel time for me each day. I'm all for improving the light rail system here, but this place will never work like it does in, say, Manhattan.
Texans -- liberal and conservative alike -- like their cars. The only way to reduce oil usage here is to make more fuel efficient cars or to make cars that don't use oil at all.
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