And then Drum will wonder why Average Joe nods his head when Rush Limpballs says the dem leadership is "elitist."
res ipsa loquitur |
12.24.05 - 9:31 am | #
Hecate, you are never left out.
Thank you for the sun rising a little sooner this morning
Johnjs |
12.24.05 - 9:31 am | #
half of $55,000 is not a hell of a lot of money.
Hecate Malificent |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:32 am | #
Hey, Brighteyes!
Now you're on Fredo's Super Secret Spying List! Congrats!
res ipsa loquitur |
12.24.05 - 9:32 am | #
i know over here Blair wants us to work till we're in our 90s!
Moonbootica, Yule-ologist |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:32 am | #
Johnjs,
You are very sweet. I can't really claim credit for that, however.
Hecate Malificent |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:33 am | #
half of $55,000 is not a hell of a lot of money.
especially when the MTA is talking about raising the fares again.
and as someone at Drum's site noted, most, if not all, of the other unions have this; why should the TWU be exempted from it?
watertiger |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:33 am | #
Now you're on Fredo's Super Secret Spying List! Congrats!
I consider it a badge of honor.
Hecate Malificent |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:34 am | #
yep there is a looming Pension crisis hence the newspace given to the Turner Report which came out earlier this month.
we are beingu ungrateful and living longer!
Moonbootica, Yule-ologist |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:34 am | #
Hecate,
What a nice Solstice gift you have just given us all!
Diane |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:34 am | #
Yeah, I'm sure that 27,500 will go wicked far in New York.
NTodd |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:35 am | #
Drum should engage his brain before he flaps his gums.
Hubris Sonic |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:36 am | #
U.S. airstrikes in Iraq have surged this fall, jumping to nearly five times the average monthly rate earlier in the year, according to U.S. military figures.
Until the end of August, U.S. warplanes were conducting about 25 strikes a month. The number rose to 62 in September, then to 122 in October and 120 in November.
Several U.S. officers involved in operations in Iraq attributed much of the increase to a series of ground offensives in western Anbar province. Those offensives, conducted by U.S. Marines and Iraqi forces, were aimed at clearing foreign fighters and other insurgents from the Euphrates River Valley and establishing Iraqi control over the Syrian border area
Moonbootica, Yule-ologist |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:36 am | #
White collar people who are jealous of what unions have gotten for their workers need to JOIN A GODDAMN UNION, YOU WHINY ASS TITTY BABIES!
Hecate Malificent |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:36 am | #
Kevin Drum doesn't work with toxic chemicals in rat infested tunnels underground:
But retiring at age 55, with 25 years on the job, at half salary? I support unions and I support the notion that Americans work too much, but even so that strikes me as indefensible. After all, most people have working lives of 40-50 years, and it's hard to imagine that they have a lot of sympathy for a deal like that. I have to confess that I don't.
Too bad. I'd like to see some of the more aggressive NYC rats get a crack at him.
SWR |
12.24.05 - 9:36 am | #
Drum's a weird one alright!
Dick |
12.24.05 - 9:36 am | #
As to retiring at 55, after 25 years of service, at half-pay: this is a standard provision of municipal and state employment.
It was a way to get people to work for the government, take less money in the shortrun, and get decent pensions to even things out.
I'm sorry, Mr. Drum, I think you're wrong on this one.
Diane |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:36 am | #
Thank you, Diane. Now you guys are embarassing me.
Hecate Malificent |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:37 am | #
Jealousy is an ugly trait, especially at this time of year.
GWPDA, yclept Irate Scholar |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:37 am | #
why should the TWU be exempted from it?
watertiger - 9:33 am
cuz they're not good, white-bread Murkins...just a buncha immigrants with funny names and caribbean accents...why should they get the good life when us RILL MURKINS gotsa work ar lahves away fer nuttin?
WoodyGuthrie'sGuitar(aka |
12.24.05 - 9:37 am | #
Drum's a weird one alright!
"You're a weird one, Mr Drum..."
NTodd |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:38 am | #
But retiring at age 55, with 25 years on the job, at half salary? I support unions and I support the notion that Americans work too much, but even so that strikes me as indefensible. After all, most people have working lives of 40-50 years, and it's hard to imagine that they have a lot of sympathy for a deal like that. I have to confess that I don't."
If i read this right, after 25 years someone can retire and pull in a whopping $27,500 before taxes.
At time I admit i can be sort of jealous at the type of money my typical customers make...there is a guy that works at chrysler that makes 60k a year, and gets 90% of that even when he's laid off. And then there's the surgeon that just charged my mom 18,000 for a 3 hour surgery. But then i remember that earning this type of $ allows these folks to buy the stuff i make, and in the end if i choose to make a career move where money and security are more important, it's mine to make.
jdw |
12.24.05 - 9:38 am | #
Hecate!
You're - you're,
PINK!
Who knew?
(I'll teach you how to fence if you want.)
GWPDA, yclept Irate Scholar |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:38 am | #
the problem they say is we Brits are not saving enough for our retirement.
lots of company pension schemes are also in disarray too.
Moonbootica, Yule-ologist |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:38 am | #
Sorry, Kevin, if that strikes you as unfair, there's a unionised waaaahmbulance driver waiting to take you to the ER.
pseudonymous in nc |
12.24.05 - 9:38 am | #
Can you imagine Kevin Drum suiting up to do 1 days work on the subway?
Hubris Sonic |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:38 am | #
Kevin Drum doesn't work with toxic chemicals in rat infested tunnels underground:
(taps tip of nose with finger) Bingo.
Or get firebombed in their token booths.
watertiger |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:38 am | #
Smug outrage from Drum. $27.5k means getting a second job. And it's not like the money is tax free.
It's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, but it's not enough to start a foundation.
jeffs |
12.24.05 - 9:39 am | #
I'm sorry, Mr. Drum, I think you're wrong on this one.
Diane - 9:36 am
as on so fucking much else it's hard to know where it stops...
k-drum's a tool...
WoodyGuthrie'sGuitar(aka |
12.24.05 - 9:39 am | #
The government yesterday rejected claims by business leaders that it had reneged on a deal to help firms cope with the administrative burdens of expanded parental leave.
Sir Digby Jones, the director-general of the Confederation of British Industry, withdrew earlier support for an increase in paid parental leave and greater flexibility in the system which would allow fathers to take over some of the paid leave previously given only to mothers.
He said business confidence was undermined when Gordon Brown, the chancellor, announced he was dropping what the CBI calls a "key element" and would not give employers the option of handing administration of statutory maternity pay to HM Revenue and Customs.
Moonbootica, Yule-ologist |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:39 am | #
after 25 years someone can retire and pull in a whopping $27,500 before taxes.
in New York!
27,5 in new york...
can he just think before he posts.
Hubris Sonic |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:39 am | #
Come on, the point is not that half of $55,000 is a lot of money - the point, as Kevin said, is that this is an extraordinarily generous pension. It's a MUCH better deal than you can get with Social Security, where early retirement starts at 62 and entails a sharp reduction in the full benefit. It is obviously a MUCH, MUCH better deal than any worker is going to get in the private sector.
In fact, the only other place where you can get a deal like this - half salary with 25 years of service - is the military, where it is usually acknowledged as the sort of enticement you need to get people to give up their freedom for half their adult life on low wages.
Dave L |
12.24.05 - 9:40 am | #
Coming from what might be described as the 'North New Jersey' of England, I know all about those half-salary pensions with early retirement.
They're for people who'll die early.
The chemical industry works by similar rules.
pseudonymous in nc |
12.24.05 - 9:40 am | #
It's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick
(looks at sharp stick in her hand, thinks better of it)
watertiger |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:40 am | #
cuz they're not good, white-bread Murkins...just a buncha immigrants with funny names and caribbean accents...why should they get the good life when us RILL MURKINS gotsa work ar lahves away fer nuttin?
WoodyGuthrie'sGuitar(aka | Email | 12.24.05 - 9:37 am | #
You're not kidding. A lot of the white break 'merkins in my family are speculating about whether or not Toussaint could be a "terrorist".
He's from one of "those" countries, right?
He's trying to disrupt subway service and making it easier for "terrorists"?
Is he a "legal" immigrant anyway?
Why should people who aren't Americans run unions?
Anybody who would judge me for hating white people has to meet my family first. They'd change their minds quickly.
SWR |
12.24.05 - 9:40 am | #
Washington Monthly pays Kevin too much.
NTodd |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:41 am | #
(I'll teach you how to fence if you want.)
GWPDA,
I am firmly convinced that there is absolutely NOTHING that you do not know how to do.
Can an old lady with a once-broken ankle learn to fence, do you think?
Hecate Malificent |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:41 am | #
Fuck that. Unless they are willing to be a track cleaner for twenty-five years, everyone should stfu. Rats, rat poisen, spit, metallic particles, shit, dirt. Breath that in, eight hours a day for twenty-five years. Then get back to me.
Furthermore, try supporting a family in NYC on $55,000, including overtime. Go ahead. Try it.
ql in ny |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:41 am | #
Come on, the point is not that half of $55,000 is a lot of money - the point, as Kevin said, is that this is an extraordinarily generous pension.
wanna run that by me again, skip.
Hubris Sonic |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:41 am | #
It is obviously a MUCH, MUCH better deal than any worker is going to get in the private sector.
then get a job in the public sector. Go work for the MTA.
call me when you've finished your first week.
watertiger |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:41 am | #
It's a MUCH better deal than you can get with Social Security, where early retirement starts at 62 and entails a sharp reduction in the full benefit.
Social Security is not a retirement plan.
NTodd |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:42 am | #
Drum is clueless about so much. The $55,000 is average, for one thing, and before taxes. My ex is a firefighter, can retire at 55 w/ similar deal, but it just means that if he works at another job after he does, his pension will be enough to maintain the simple lifestyle he's lived all those years as a civil servant job. On its own, living on half-salary would mean losing everything.
Plus many of these jobs require physical strength, skills and reflexes that begin to wain . . . Some folks move on to desk positions, but many need to retire to make room for younger, more fit employees.
cs |
12.24.05 - 9:42 am | #
He's from one of "those" countries, right?
Jebus, one white girl goes missing from a Caribbean island and they're TERRORISTS?
watertiger |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:42 am | #
Can an old lady with a once-broken ankle learn to fence, do you think?
Hecate Malificent
Of course. Lots of good exercises to strengthen up and do it right. Been a while since I was on the piste, but it's so much like ballet the body doesn't really forget - it's all balance. The best part about fencing was that my coach wrote me a note that forbade my gym teacher from making me do deep knee bends.
GWPDA, yclept Irate Scholar |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:43 am | #
Productivity growth in the UK fell to its lowest rate for 15 years in the third quarter of 2005, according to figures released yesterday.
The Office for National Statistics (ONS) said that output per worker between July and September was just 0.4% higher than the same period a year earlier.
Particularly badly hit were paper and printing and the electrical and optical equipment sectors, which both saw productivity levels fall in the third quarter compared with the same months last year. The manufacturing sector as a whole saw productivity rise by 3.9% in the three months compared with last year.
Moonbootica, Yule-ologist |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:43 am | #
He's from one of "those" countries, right?
Jebus, one white girl goes missing from a Caribbean island and they're TERRORISTS?
watertiger | Email | Homepage | 12.24.05 - 9:42 am | #
The subliminal language Bloomberg was putting out worked on a lot of my family. They're always a good sounding board. If there's a racial issue, they'll pick up on it.
The lack of support was about race.
Drum is providing them cover.
SWR |
12.24.05 - 9:44 am | #
1) I don't think one could own a home on 55K in NYC. That means they'll have to pay rent with that pension.
2) Our economy can afford pensions like that for everyone. And we all should have them. What we can't afford is quite so large a super upper-class, whose members get their money without working at all.
3) That's 25 years at MTA, but probably 35 years working. And probably only 10 or 15 years to help raise grandchildren, do volunteer work, be active in the community in a way they don't have time for when they're working.
MisterC |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:44 am | #
It is obviously a MUCH, MUCH better deal than any worker is going to get in the private sector.
Cuz people in the private sector generally decided about twenty or so years ago that they were too good for unions.
Hecate Malificent |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:44 am | #
Can an old lady with a once-broken ankle learn to fence, do you think?
Montoya, and Roberts both learned how to fence with their opposite hands.
Hubris Sonic |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:44 am | #
cuz they're not good, white-bread Murkins...just a buncha immigrants with funny names and caribbean accents...
Bill Morris, the former leader of the UK's TGWU, got that kind of treatment from the Murdoch press because he was an immigrant with a noticeable Jamaican accent.
He's now Sir Bill.
pseudonymous in nc |
12.24.05 - 9:45 am | #
Cops moonlight in "security" to make ends meet.
But Johnny Damon gets $52 million to swing a fucking bat and catch a fucking ball.
i haven't fenced since the '70s...
was in a club at the time...foil and epee...
WoodyGuthrie'sGuitar(aka |
12.24.05 - 9:45 am | #
Can an old lady with a once-broken ankle learn to fence, do you think?
Hecate Malificent
Chain link would be hard, but picket would be fine.
Falstaff |
12.24.05 - 9:46 am | #
Just foil. Goils use foils.
GWPDA, yclept Irate Scholar |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:46 am | #
Thatcher effecitly crushed the Unions as a political force which could run the country.
Moonbootica, Yule-ologist |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:46 am | #
Cuz people in the private sector generally decided about twenty or so years ago that they were too good for unions.
Why do I need a union? Ayn Rand tells me I'm special?
SWR |
12.24.05 - 9:46 am | #
I don't think one could own a home on 55K in NYC.
One can't put a down payment on a studio apartment in NYC with a salary of $55K.
watertiger |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:46 am | #
2) Our economy can afford pensions like that for everyone. And we all should have them. What we can't afford is quite so large a super upper-class, whose members get their money without working at all.
Spot on.
Hecate Malificent |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:46 am | #
Cuz people in the private sector generally decided about twenty or so years ago that they were too good for unions.
'Decided', my arse. That was one big corporate propaganda effort. Thomas Frank's 'One Market Under God' makes good reading on how union membership was sold as being 'beneath' the working (and aspirational middle) class.
pseudonymous in nc |
12.24.05 - 9:49 am | #
My daughter took fencing in college. Because she's small, she was at considerable disadvantage but made up for it by being aggressive. I visited class one day, it was fun to watch.
cs |
12.24.05 - 9:49 am | #
Fresh linen, btw.
pseudonymous in nc |
12.24.05 - 9:49 am | #
# 640 - John IV becomes Pope
# 1515 - Thomas Wolsey is named the English Lord Chancellor
# 1715 - Swedish troops occupy Norway
# 1777 - Kiritimati, also called Christmas Island, was discovered by James Cook.
# 1800 - Assassination attempt on Napoleon Bonaparte's life
# 1814 - The Treaty of Ghent was signed which ended the War of 1812
# 1818 - "Silent Night" composed by Franz Xaver Gruber
# 1865 - Several US Civil War Confederate veterans form the Ku Klux Klan
# 1914 - World War I: The "Christmas truce" begins
# 1943 - US General Dwight D. Eisenhower becomes the supreme Allied commander
# 1946 - France's Fourth Republic founded
# 1979 - The Soviet Union invades Afghanistan to support the country's Marxist government.
# 1997 - The Sid El-Antri massacre (or Sidi Lamri) in Algeria kills 50-100 people.
Moonbootica, Yule-ologist |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:49 am | #
The Office for National Statistics (ONS) said that output per worker between July and September was just 0.4% higher than the same period a year earlier.
Moonbootica
Which just goes to show that there is a freakin' limit on just how much productivity can increase.
Diane |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:49 am | #
Bang the Drum, slowly.
Tim Finnegan |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:53 am | #
Chain link would be hard, but picket would be fine.
Falstaff
True. She'd get a lot more stability with block and stucco as well. In fact, little Hecate, you who are desperate for walls around your bungalow, let me recommend you go to your local vo-tech school and see if you can learn how to do the work yourself? Some fences are better than others....
GWPDA, yclept Irate Scholar |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 9:53 am | #
Just for the record, the MTA pension payout is based on your last three years TOTAL income - you load up on OT between the three years before you turn 55 (where $100K/yr is not unheard of with double/triple time), suddenly your retirement package is looking pretty good.
schnu |
12.24.05 - 9:55 am | #
suddenly your retirement package is looking pretty good.
schnu - 9:55 am
you a tunnel maintenance guy?
or what?
(crickets)
WoodyGuthrie'sGuitar(aka |
12.24.05 - 10:16 am | #
basically it boils down to a privileged academic living a cloistered life opining on something he has not a fucking clue about. for a better insight into the class, race and economic issues of the strike, i highly recommend steve gilliard, who has written informed and passionately about this:
I don't get it. 55K ain't a lot of money (especially in NYC.) If you're in the military, you can retire after twenty years (typically by the time you're forty-two or less) with excellent benefits. No one can live on 27.5K in the city (or in most cities), and so what a retiree would have to do is get another job, not always so easy at 55.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who are happy to see workers earn a good living, and those who are not. Kevin Drum seems to be in the second group.
David Derbes |
12.24.05 - 10:42 am | #
But Johnny Damon gets $52 million to swing a fucking bat and catch a fucking ball.
I'm really tired of this lazy crap. watertiger, I like you, but cut it out. There are about 100 people in the entire world who can do what Damon does as well as, or better than, he does it. That's not even subjective judgement, like you'd apply to other entertainment fields like acting or singing. This is direct competition where one must devote his life to the pursuit in order to succeed.
I know this is very tangential, but if you're going to bitch about entertainers' salaries, don't use professional athletes as your example. Every last one of them, particularly baseball players, got there on their merits.
StanUllman |
12.24.05 - 10:50 am | #
100 now strikes me as a very high estimate.
StanUllman |
12.24.05 - 10:51 am | #
Why in the hell would you want to retire at 55? I hope I'm working until I'm at least 65, but then again I love my job.
Paul |
12.24.05 - 11:09 am | #
This is one of those areas where Kevin is so completely wrong that it is embarrassing!
Hecate -- pink blog! Left a comment (just so you would know I looked)
Prior Aelred |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 11:22 am | #
Drum's right about one thing: The pension thing--because it doesn't play well west of the River Hudson--weakens general sympathy for unions.
Fact is, many of those in TWU who retire at 55 will spend more years collecting benefits than they did earning them. Clearly, some sort of redress is necessary, if only to account for demographic/actuarial changes.
jimmy |
12.24.05 - 11:26 am | #
I live in the NYC area (A Jersey Suburb), and I earn just about 55k. My wife earns a similar amount. I lived in Manhattan, but moved out, mostly because it's the most expensive patch of real-estate, east of the Rockies. News flash: I can't afford to live in Bermuda, either. Does that make the world unfair?
Why do we on the left predicate our arguments about living wages, and fail to account for, in married couples, both spouses earning roughly equal salaries? Single earner households have become the exclusive province of the comfortable, or those who are willing to make sacrifices on principle (e.g., the traditional home order of devoutly religious families). Between our two salaries--each lower than that of the average long-term TWU-member MTA employee--we manage to make it. So kindly can the "support a family of four in NYC on 55k/annum" arguments. It can be done, but with some sacrifices and compromises. Again, this is the real world.
Not sure what could have prevented this state of affairs (the necessity for two-earner households), but it's the one we're stuck with. Short of rejecting material society, it is, more or less, the way things have been going for roughly a century.
jimmy |
12.24.05 - 11:35 am | #
It's hard to believe that Drum's that fuckin' stupid. I've spent a lot of years working in public service when I could have made more money in private industry. Part of the reason, besides altruism, is the fact that in 8 years at the age of 58, I can retire at 1/2 salary and start a second career. I don't intend to stop working when I become eligible for retirement, I just intend to use the income to buy freedom to do what I really want.
If my pension gets taken away, then all the years of sacrifice turn into a cruel joke.
Mark B. |
12.24.05 - 11:46 am | #
Even with two earners at that level, I don't see how you make it in NYC.
A squat, pug-ugly 3 bedroom one bath home across the street from the school in which I work sells now for between 800K and one million bucks.
NYC Educator |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 11:47 am | #
This whole discussion is a good illustration of why pensions and health benefits should be de-coupled from employment. Our present system has everyone competing and being jealous and critical of one another rather than seeing we are all in the same boat.
Secular |
12.24.05 - 11:50 am | #
Our present system has everyone competing and being jealous and critical of one another rather than seeing we are all in the same boat.
Look kids if you're going to fight over dessert, nobody gets pie!
Frankly, that's a dumb argument. Pensions are part of what people consider when they take certain jobs, and what employers use when they try to entice workers to come to work for them and stay on the job. If an employer can't afford to pay high compensation immediately, deferred compensation is an attractive option for both parties. And it's tax free, if its a retirement plan.
Mark B. |
12.24.05 - 11:58 am | #
Sure pension should be de-coupled from employment. But until we get national health and a government interested in supporting its citizens, as opposed to, say, crucifying them on the pillar of tax cuts, it's academic.
NYC Educator |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 12:05 pm | #
Single earner households have become the exclusive province of the comfortable, or those who are willing to make sacrifices on principle
Damn, I knew I was missing something. Where's my 'other earner'? Who knew I was that comfortable? Who knew I was making sacrifices on principle?
I just thought I was single.
GWPDA, yclept Irate Scholar |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 12:05 pm | #
It's ironic that the folks who put so much energy into "defending marriage" have no problem compelling young mothers to go out and work full-time so they can give yet deeper tax cuts to Steve Forbes.
NYC Educator |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 12:08 pm | #
I've baffled by Kevin Drum's ignorance and stupidity. What kind of sheltered existence did this clown have? Half salary at age 55 is nothing exceptional. He thinks it's indefensible? I'm really curious on what grounds he believes this. ....twit.
LPaul |
12.24.05 - 12:44 pm | #
I read Eschaton daily but rarely read the comments because of the time it would consume. I was deeply curious about how people outside of NY were discussing the strike.
I think it's ridiculous to focus on how impossible it is to live in NYC for $55k. Maybe they don't live in The Upper East Side, but I know plenty of people who do it and manage. It's like complaining that people can't live in Beverly Hills for $55k...
If you are retiring at 55 and receive a pension - and 50% is generous by most standards - it's because you are expecting to continue to work (maybe reduced hours), because you at 55 have paid off your home and your expenses have been reduced, or maybe becuase your spouse is covering the gap. People work public sector make this choice and I almost did for a reduced salary but in the end did not want to be tied to the same city job for 25 years.
I live in NY and I strongly supported the MTA workers (by the way they do not ALL work in the stinking tunnels, let's be realistic) until the strike. It deeply hurt the working class in NYC. I have a bike so was able to get around with some inconvenience, but I was still able to mostly maintain my daily routine. But most people live outside Manhattan and commute into the city. The super in my building couldn't get to work fro Brooklyn. The lady who works in my local bodega couldn't get in from Queens. The guy who cut my hair said business is down by 50% and it comes out of his pocket. This happened all over the city. Do you think people got paid for not making it into work? A lot white collar workers in the city were either advised to work from home or the company arranged shuttles, etc. I don't know anyone white collar who lost pay because they didn't make it in. The MTA workers got really SCREWED because they got double fined for the stirke and still no contract. The booth guy at my station was PISSED when he came back to work, saying it wasn't worth the strike. This disproporitontely hurt the working class of this city.
Just my 2 cents, call me a troll if you like but there are a lot of facets to this, and it's tempting to paint it as the MAN (the city) vs the working class (the union), but it's just not that simple.
brad in NYC |
12.24.05 - 12:54 pm | #
I think Kevin's fallen into the "envy" trap. That is, he doesn't get that benefit, therefore it must be an overly-generous benefit that nobody else deserves either.
Public employment usually has poorer pay, but somewhat more generous benefits, than private employment. It's a tradeoff, and calling the benefits "generous" without considering the lower pay is fallacious. (You also have to consider the cost of living in your little corner of the USA. $55K/year is good money where I lived, but not so great in NYC.)
Back when I was a public employee, that was part of my benefit package. It was called the "rule of 80" - when your age, plus your years of service totalled 80, you could retire even if you weren't 62 yet. Your retirement benefit was 2% of your (covered) salary for each year of service, so, if you started work at age 30, then after 25 years, you could retire at age 55 at 50% of covered salary. (The catch was that only the first $25K/year was "covered," unless you contributed 10% of the excess - the state contributed nothing beyond that first $25K.)
They've since changed it to a slightly less generous "rule of 90," so now you'd have to start work at age 20 if you wanted to retire at 55 (but you'd have 35 years of service, so you'd get 70% of covered salary). If you started at age 30, you could retire at age 60 with 60% of salary.
Given the modest salaries of public employment, I don't consider those benefit levels overly generous at all.
Mathwiz |
12.24.05 - 1:15 pm | #
Gee, 50 percent of salary at 55 would be nice. My wife was a college professor for 27 years, "retired" at 55 and hasn't annuitized her tiny nest egg yet -- because all it would come to is about a thousand per month. I guarantee you this is WAY less than 50 percent. We have tons of debt, own no property, have no health insurance. I intend to change all that, but it takes time.
Interesting to read about the transit employees. My professor wife never once made as much as any of them. This is a cruel, cold country we live in now. But those of you with no worries should get down on your knees and give thanks.
Me |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 1:16 pm | #
A perk of being a college professor is free college tuition at sister universities for all your children. College professors also get life-time health care and cost of living raises built into their pensions, no?
Harold |
12.24.05 - 1:19 pm | #
Yes, living on a salary of $55K in NYC is such an easy thing to do.
Kev, you're being a dick again.
watertiger | Email | Homepage | 12.24.05 - 9:28 am | #
Exactly right. Funny, no one complains that the cops and fire fighters get equally good deals--retiring after 20 years, many with questionable injury claims right at the end that boosts the retirement payout. And, just as not all MTA workers are in the tunnels, lots of cops aren't out on the street facing down the bad guys. n fact, most of them aren't.
Yes, I know some blue-collar, middle class people were hurt by the strike, and that's unfortunate. What scares me is the scads of underemployed office types who whine that they don't make much money, and damn the strikers, when, if they would think for one minute, they'd realize that a good union helps all workers by insisting on decent pay.
ACK |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 1:33 pm | #
Harold, you need to get an education. Life-time health care? Cost of living raises?? HELL, NO!!! ZERO HEALTH CARE, ZERO COST-OF-LIVING INCREASES. What alternative universe are you living in? I can't believe this nonsense. Are you a troll??? Even when she was working full-time, she had to pay through the nose to get health coverage and felt like a second-class citizen.
No wonder this country is in such sad shape. Yeah, yeah. College professors and transit union members are on a real gravy train, lemme tell ya. Fact: teachers in America are treated like shit. Sure, a few profs make out like bandits at the right schools, but most don't.
Oh, BTW: my wife did make more than the *average* NYC transit worker. But we sold our house before the prices went up, great timing. Appeciated less than one percent per year for 13 years in rural MD. That's the way these things usually work, folks. The last few years are Bush-engineered bread-and-circuses, as any sane person knows.
Me |
Homepage |
12.24.05 - 1:35 pm | #
Is your wife a tenured prof? It she is not she has my sympathies.
Harold |
12.24.05 - 2:04 pm | #
I have several close relatives and inlaws who are or were tenured professors (active and retired-with-generous-benefits). The chief difference between them and other people is that they don't have to save up for college tuition for their children and can deduct books, movies and travel from their taxes. That said, I don't begrudge them anything -- they deserve a decent life and more respect than they currently get. They work very very hard, as well. In our geographic area tenured college profs. get a lot more money than shown below, by the way.
Part-time and adjunct professors are a different story -- they are exploited.
According to the web a professor at, say, the U of Washington makes from 70 to 90 K a year.
Harold |
12.24.05 - 2:28 pm | #
"suddenly your retirement package is looking pretty good.
schnu - 9:55 am
you a tunnel maintenance guy?
or what?
(crickets)
WoodyGuthrie'sGuitar(aka"
At 55 you have a different expense structure that you have at 30 (maybe no kids to support, a lower mortgage, etc). Plus in the MTA plan, you have post employment health insurance, so you have less uncertainty in that area. I'm not saying that you are retiring rich, but you certainly aren't retiring poor under the current MTA pension plan (and I don't begrudge them one bit for it)....
schnu |
12.24.05 - 2:29 pm | #
A typical corporate pension, like mine, is about 40% of final wages, assuming 30 years or so of service. 50% is somewhat more generous, but not inordinately so. What about pensions for Federal workers?
bob h |
12.24.05 - 7:31 pm | #
My professor wife never once made as much as any of them.
I've been reading around on this issue and I've been struck by the number of academics and spouses of academics who think it particularly absurd and cruel that some of them make less than transit workers. What is the basis for this? During the years when most people are overworked wage slaves, your wife got to read books and write. After that, she secured a job known for its low stress and high psychic reward. In retrospect, does she wish she had become a New York City transit worker?