I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
frist!
2x in one day...living right!
third?
vicki? where are ya babe? I've locked the door....
ah! dirk snuck in...
Damn, can't seem to catch a first lately. Ah well jdw, at least you ain't spinoza.
Anybody got free access to the link? Just say no to Times Select.
OT Does Dick Cheney really need another bird to shoot at?
ah! dirk snuck in...
jdw | 02.18.06 - 5:24 pm | #
heh heh heh
Fact checking! Hah, we don't need no stinkin' fact checkin', we're Republicans!
zombie brains smell like pus.
and al gore invented the internets.
" Ah well jdw, at least you ain't spinoza.
mer"
that's for sure...Philosophy is the talk on a cereal box.
At least we know that Al Gore claimed to have invented the internet. That much is certain.
Dirk? Eye update?
and al gore invented the internets.
ice weasel | Homepage | 02.18.06 - 5:26 pm | #
Damnit.
it's not select--just the free member login.
Some of us are immune to zombie bites.
Thank goodness.
can't hang around - just stopped in to say i'm ok; i left under odd circumstance yesterday.
but all is fine. that is, if you ignore the fact that our govt has been taken over by fascists, warmongers and theocrats, the constitution is under attack, dick cheney got liquored up and shot a 78 year old man in the face, and someone actually publishes kate obierne's driveling.
other than that, all is fine.
The internets invented Al Gore.
They're the undead.
i am the zombie woof
Are some people too woo-woo even for a witch? Is Rupbert Sheldrake one of those people?
Dirk? Eye update?
Eli | Homepage | 02.18.06 - 5:27 pm | #
------------
not eye - low blood pressure, caused many strange effects. don't know why yet. to submit to tests or not - that is the question.
Be a lotta fun to try.
At what point does wingnut trash become slander? That goes for swiftboating, too.
our govt has been taken over by fascists, warmongers and theocrats, the constitution is under attack, dick cheney got liquored up and shot a 78 year old man in the face, and someone actually publishes kate obierne's driveling.
other than that, all is fine.
In a nutshell...
The internets invented Al Gore.
Love Story inspired Al Gore to pollute Love Canal with earthtone lies.
"All heterosexual intercourse is rape."
I'm having a hard time comprehending this statement.
so this is something that the NYT is willing to tackle, but "Iran and Syria are behind the riots" isn't...
What would really shock the wingnuts is to find out that not all rape is heterosexual sex.
Just a slight technical point ~
you can't kill a zombie because zombies are already dead.
Why is it, hanging out here day after day (as I do, sadly), no one told me TomKat had split up?
I mean, I was so shocked!
(Well, I can't get to the link, I had to say something!)
not eye - low blood pressure, caused many strange effects. don't know why yet. to submit to tests or not - that is the question.
Yes. That is the answer.
I'm having a hard time comprehending this statement.
it's one of those things, you know, that any time a man has sex with a woman it's from a position of power and its an exertion of dominance.
Miss Thing is so happy I came home and turned on the heat you'd think it was Atrios' birthday. Oh, wait.
mer---iirc, it was Andrea Dworkin who said this (a real piece of work). But the RW whack-jobs have been trying to pin this statement on sane feminists ever since.
What would really shock the wingnuts is to find out that not all rape is heterosexual sex.
poor swedes, they're having such problems with their gay penguins.
Hey Robert Jeffers - what's the weather like down there?
It hasn't gotten out of the 20s here today. Or hadn't, last time I checked.
Why is it, hanging out here day after day (as I do, sadly), no one told me TomKat had split up?
TomKat split up?
No one ever tells me anything.
I'm sure Kate O'Beirn will get right on correcting this and sending flowers to the lovely lady she wronged, along with an apology note written on cream-colored watermark paper.
No, I'm not.
TomKat split up?
No one ever tells me anything.
well, the The Sun in the UK says that's not true! and if the The Sun says it, it's TRUE! 
I've heard that assertion so many times, usually from trolls who think that I will immediately shut up because of this powerful statement and skitter rapidly back into my kitchen to look for that frilly apron.
Tena, it's 34 here.
So...what are all the other moonbats doing today?
For me, it's been more office-cleaning (which allows me to avoid home-cleaning), one job-hunt-related e-mail, one avocation-related e-mail, and not much else except marveling that Canada got beat by the Swiss in hockey.
Yes. That is the answer.
Hecate Malificent
or i could just stop sitting on my ass all day on this blog and get up, move around, breathe real air ....
but we shall see. tests are expensive, i'm self insured, and i want to know what they are testing for and what the results will mean first. if no matter what the result the answer is a particular pill or more exercise or whatever, i'll jump right to treatment.
i figure i can wait for my own doc's office hours tomorrow. but thanks for the concern.
42F in the 77084. But "feels like" 33.
I mean, I never thought Tom would be so glib!
(Zombies, by the way, aren't really dead. They're suffering the effects of culture and a paralyzing drug made from a puffer fish.)
mer---iirc, it was Andrea Dworkin who said this (a real piece of work).
I don't know if she said this in these exact words, but, FWIW, Andrew Dworkin was raped by prison guards after she was arrested at an anti-war demo.
Something most wingnuts probably fantasize about doing to most female anti-war protesters (when they're not fantasizing about running them over with bulldozers).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And.../
Andrea_Dworkin
In 1965, while a student at Bennington College, Dworkin was arrested during an anti-Vietnam War protest at the United States Mission to the United Nations. She was sent to the New York Women's House of Detention, where she was given an internal examination by two prison doctors so rough that she bled for days afterwards. She spoke in public and testified before a grand jury about her experience, and the media coverage of her testimony made national and international news (Dworkin, Heartbreak, 77-81). The grand jury declined to make an indictment in the case (80), but Dworkin's testimony contributed to public outrage over the mistreatment of inmates. The prison was closed seven years later.
I suppose we may therefore draw the conclusion as to the importance of beating down every comparable misattribution from the Right.
And we would be correct.
I don't really understand zombies - although I know they're as real as anything. When I was a kid I could understand the fascination with ghosts, aliens, etc. Just not zombies though.
There's obviously more to them than there would appear.
So...what are all the other moonbats doing today?
acting classes - the stanislovski method - with a famous bulgarian actor/professor.
at least, he's famous in bulgaria. here he's a limo driver. and happily for me, teaching as well.
Is there anyone else who is totally sick of winter here in the NE?
Mid-20's and wind chill here in Pgh. Sucks.
to look for that frilly apron.
The white one with country-gingham ruffles or the black net one with a very big bow in the back or the French-maid one that . . .
I may have said too much.
Hey Robert Jeffers - what's the weather like down there?
It hasn't gotten out of the 20s here today. Or hadn't, last time I checked.
Tena
40's, thereabouts.
Kind of day that makes all the British expats (oil co. folks) feel at home, and the Scots think longingly of summer on the moors.
And the rest of us dash about and get inside ASAP. Cold (for Houston). Wet. Gray.
Winter. At long last.
The white one with country-gingham ruffles or the black net one with a very big bow in the back or the French-maid one that . . .
i'm partial to the german beermaid aprons...
So...what are all the other moonbats doing today?
i worked all day on a brief and then went to the grocery store. God, I lead an exciting life.
7 degrees in beautiful downtown Muskegon, MI (If we had an actual downtown, you know?)
"it's one of those things, you know, that any time a man has sex with a woman it's from a position of power and its an exertion of dominance.
poppieprong"
what if i'm on the bottom and the woman initiates the act? what if i'm totally passive, and just tilt my head to watch tds?
SWR--I didn't know that. If both this account (which I wouldn't doubt for a minute) and the hetero-sex-rape attribution are true, it would explain a lot of things about Dworkin.
JP, if you are up here in this thread, congrats on getting a comment from Paul Lukasiak on your blog.
mer---iirc, it was Andrea Dworkin who said this (a real piece of work).
nope.
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/mac...es/
mackinno.htm
i worked all day on a brief and then went to the grocery store. God, I lead an exciting life.
Hecate Malificent
On my second (third, actually) job. Taught this morning. Working with books this p.m.
Goin' to bed early tonight....
So...what are all the other moonbats doing today?
i've been recoding the Human Trafficking shit i wrote last summer. and updating it.
oddly, i feel like i would have an easier time defending a terrorist than a human trafficker.
God, I lead an exciting life.
Hehe.
You should have been over at Gilly's place when I admitted to watching the curling matches every morning.
I didn't hang around to see what responses THAT garnered.
So...what are all the other moonbats doing today?
I had the guys who put in my HVAC system 18 months ago out for a nice PM visit and then I mailed oranges all over the country and then went back out to the Borg to get my issued laptop so as to see whether what I believed had happened has happened and then went to Lowe's where I bought a miniature Anna Apple tree and a bunch of loganberry canes, and then I went to the grocery store and bought some chicken and then I came home.
I didn't know that. If both this account (which I wouldn't doubt for a minute) and the hetero-sex-rape attribution are true, it would explain a lot of things about Dworkin.
Well the account of getting raped in jail after getting arrested at the anti-war demo was certainly true since she took legal action and won.
The NEW-effing-YORK-TIMES is quoting "Snopes.com"...?!
Oh, that is rich!
"it's one of those things, you know, that any time a man has sex with a woman it's from a position of power and its an exertion of dominance.
poppieprong"
what if i'm on the bottom and the woman initiates the act? what if i'm totally passive, and just tilt my head to watch tds?
jdw
I want to be first in line to welcome our feminist overlords for snoo-snoo.
Or however they spell it.
"The spirit is willing, but the flesh is spongy and bruised."
what if i'm on the bottom and the woman initiates the act? what if i'm totally passive, and just tilt my head to watch tds?
well, your passivity and inclination to watch JS would suggest that the woman is nothing but a depository for your sperm.
or something.
(or maybe that you're gay cuz you'd rather watch Jon Stewart. )
"Feminism stresses the indistinguishability of prostitution, marriage, and sexual harassment".
This is an ACTUAL QUOTE from MacKinnon's "Feminism Unmodified". MacKinnon, who, folks, is no friend of liberals, is lying about what she wrote. This is not unusual for her.
Sometimes even wingnuts are right.
Goddammit, what the hell happened to my italics tags!?
So newspapers are employing bloggers to make their mistakes for them now (the review in question was written by Wonkette)?
A new US 100 dollar bill?
http://www.artnet.com/artwork/42...eng-100-
us.html
a five dollar one here;
http://www.artnet.com/artwork/42...heng-5-us-
.html
The thing about this winter, when it was in the sixties most of Dec/Jan, is that it is really hard to get use to temperatures in the 20s. Not fun, plus I get chapped lips when the weather changes this drastically.
The New York Times might want to run some of its own stories by Snopes.
Robert - It's grey here, too, and almost cold enough to make a Dane feel nostalgia for early spring in Copenhagen. With less ice, of course.
Well the account of getting raped in jail after getting arrested at the anti-war
demo was certainly true since she took legal action and won.
SWR | 02.18.06 - 5:43 pm | #
The Women's House of
Detention in NYC back then was
a notorious hellhole. Dworkin's
story rings totally true to me.
Of course, she was still
insufferable and completely
full of shit.
it's one of those things, you know, that any time a man has sex with a woman it's from a position of power and its an exertion of dominance.
I disagree with most of what Dworkin and McKinnnon wrote but there's a part of Dworkin's writing that's just undeniably common sense.
And the police accept it.
Whenever a woman is murdered, who do the cops automatically consider the prime suspect?
More evidence that nothing gets the right more frothy than women who refuse to be deferrential to men. That's why they love Mrs. Laurabot and hate Hillary.
mer---iirc, it was Andrea Dworkin who said this (a real piece of work). But the RW whack-jobs have been trying to pin this statement on sane feminists ever since.
Dr. Uncle Cap'n Mr. Goto-san | 02.18.06 - 5:33 pm | #
It really, really helps if you read the links.
MacKinnon's past efforts to correct the record on this matter include a letter, written with Dworkin, published in the Book Review on May 7, 1995. The issue has also been the subject of an article in The Chicago Tribune ("Fighting a Lie That Just Won't Die," by Cindy Richards, May 30, 1999) and of an entry on Snopes.com, a Web site that specializes in investigating Internet rumors (www.snopes.com/quotes/mackinno.htm).
Zombie Wingnuttery, indeed.
I'm going out food shopping. First layer, silk underwear. Second layer, thermal underwear. Third layer, lined jeans and three sweaters. Fourth layer, quilted jacket, socks, socks and socks.
Fifth layer, a hood with eyeholes, mittens and felt boots. Then add warning lights, a climbing rope, and a flask of rum for emergencies. It's at least a block to the store.
The New York Times might want to run some of its own stories by Snopes.
That would certainly make me do the Snopey dance.
Whenever a woman is murdered, who do the cops automatically consider the prime suspect?
SWR
Dick Cheney?
And, and, and ....
I got my Hudson's Bay Company charge card! Wooooohooooo! I can be a Canadian again now!
This is an ACTUAL QUOTE from MacKinnon's "Feminism Unmodified". MacKinnon, who, folks, is no friend of liberals, is lying about what she wrote. This is not unusual for her.
There is a difference between opposition to marriage and opposition to heterosexual sex.
"Feminism stresses the indistinguishability of prostitution, marriage, and sexual harassment".
This is an ACTUAL QUOTE from MacKinnon's "Feminism Unmodified". MacKinnon, who, folks, is no friend of liberals, is lying about what she wrote. This is not unusual for her.
Sometimes even wingnuts are right.
dan
Well, (being a scholar in a past life) maybe it is, maybe it isn't.
But the snopes link above says the attribution that "Sex is rape" is from an anti-McKinnon book. And while you might interpret that "quote" as meaning "sex = rape," you sorta have to close one eye and look at it sideways to get there....
And besides, who cares what Catherine McKinnon said?
I ... and then I ... and then ... and then ... and then I .... and then I came home.
After just trying to follow GWPDA's play-by-play, I am now officially too tired to get up from this desk.
Call 911 and send in the chinese food.
Whenever a woman is murdered, who do the cops automatically consider the prime suspect?
true.
BTW, ever see Shaun of the Dead?
http://www.shaunofthedeadmovie.c...com/
splash.html
Great social commentary. The real people have less life than the dead zombies.
Whenever a woman is murdered, who do the cops automatically consider the prime suspect?
true.
Capote???
the review in question was written by Wonkette
The former wonkette. AMC has gone off that blog.
I had the guys who put in my HVAC system 18 months ago out for a nice PM visit and then I mailed oranges all over the country and then went back out to the Borg to get my issued laptop so as to see whether what I believed had happened has happened and then went to Lowe's where I bought a miniature Anna Apple tree and a bunch of loganberry canes, and then I went to the grocery store and bought some chicken and then I came home.
GWPDA wins! But I didn't know you could grow apples in Phoenix. My backyard neighbors have a tree that drops apples in my yard all July long. I go out out night and throw them back into their yard.
well, it is time for me to go home and eat some scallops.
bye!
On Dworkin. She was extreme in her statements, true, but if you read her autobiography you can sort of see what made her so. She really had horrible experiences of sexual violence in her life and she got very little support after they happened.
Whenever a woman is murdered, who do the cops automatically consider the prime suspect?
The nearest living black guy?
What do I win?
ah, la famiglia has arrived. back later.
The thing about this winter, when it was in the sixties most of Dec/Jan, is that it is really hard to get use to temperatures in the 20s. Not fun, plus I get chapped lips when the weather changes this drastically.
mer
Drastic changes in winter weather in Texas are pretty much the norm. Shifts of 30 degrees either way are not unusual.
Which makes me think Bush is bringing Texas to the rest of the country not just in politics....
One more reason I should apologize, I suppose.
But I didn't know you could grow apples in Phoenix. My backyard neighbors have a tree that drops apples in my yard all July long. I go out out night and throw them back into their yard.
Get a louisville slugger, and you can practice your batting with them.
"Feminism stresses the indistinguishability of prostitution, marriage, and sexual harassment".
This is an ACTUAL QUOTE from MacKinnon's "Feminism Unmodified". MacKinnon, who, folks, is no friend of liberals, is lying about what she wrote. This is not unusual for her.
Sometimes even wingnuts are right.
dan | 02.18.06 - 5:43 pm | #
I'm sorry, equating sexual harassment, porstitution and marriage, is not the same thing as saying that all sex is rape.
One could argue that (especially traditionally) that marriage had some of the same coercive elements present in prostitution and sexual harassment.
I don't think that this is true, but it isn't nearly as batshit crazy as arguing that all sex is rape.
Just Sayin'
Jeebus. The NYT is citing Snopes to back up an assertion. Not that I don't love Snopes. It just seems a little sad that the "newspaper of record" can't just report the facts and be taken at its word.
Whenever a woman is murdered, who do the cops automatically consider the prime suspect?
The nearest living black guy?
o.j.
She was extreme in her statements, true, but if you read her autobiography you can sort of see what made her so.
Being fucked with in such severe ways, often makes people less-than-reasonable.
O'Beirne's book should be dismissed just as Jon Stewart did in person to that dipshit Bernie Goldberg about his "100 People Who are Screwing Up America":
"This stuff just sounds like the ravings of the grumpy old dude at the end of the bar."
One could argue that (especially traditionally) that marriage had some of the same coercive elements present in prostitution and sexual harassment.
I don't think that this is true
Not for lack of trying...
Kate O'Beirne,
WTF is the matter with you?
No life? Did your father beat you?
dworkin and mackinnon don't scare me.
dick cheney with a shotgun - now that's scary.
Dworkin and MacKinnon really did handle the patriarchal conflation of sex and rape in an unscholarly and really unforgivable way and fully deserve their antisex reputation. Recently hair-splitting apologetics have appeared defending them out of ignorance and confusion, but "sex-positive feminism" still originated from the need to explain to people that "Dworkin doesn't speak for" anyone but herself. Representing her or MacKinnon as the Prophet or Author of Feminism is as dishonest as hitting a Swedish socialist with some crime of Trotsky's.
She was extreme in her statements, true, but if you read her autobiography you can sort of see what made her so.
It's also interesting to read what mainstream people thought about gender relations in the 1960s.
Anthony Lewis had a whole passage about it in his review of the new Taylor Branch book.
Segregationists used to put womens' rights riders onto anti-Jim Crow bills to mock them.
And most northerners got the joke.
but if you read her autobiography you can sort of see what made her so.
Highlights?
Overheard recently:
When does a man become a bird?
When Cheney pulls the trigger.
Holy shit, Eli...I think that guy is bucking for "Bush Pioneer" status without actually putting up the money (he wants to qualify by "life points" instead).
I've heard that assertion so many times, usually from trolls who think that I will immediately shut up because of this powerful statement and skitter rapidly back into my kitchen to look for that frilly apron.
Echidne of the snakes
i.e. "Shut up and go cook me a roast!"
Jeebus. The NYT is citing Snopes to back up an assertion.
i thought they were just mentioning that snopes had an article on it. they backed up their assertion with a reference to the book in which the quote was contained and proper attribution.
Call 911 and send in the chinese food.
Now I'm gonna put down the new dirt in the vegetable garden and take the chicken out of the oven and then cut up some of that for Arthur's dinner, and then I'm going to light what's probably the very last fire of the year!
But then, I'm also having a nice glass of whiskey.
Say, NYMary&Thers? I mailed your lace out too, and the clerk and I decided that a gift to a new infant son of a couple of Irish RCs probably shouldn't be sent out with a postage imprint of $6.66. So we changed it to $6.67.
More evidence that nothing gets the right more frothy than women who refuse to be deferrential to men.
Exactly. And we know that no one ever uses hyperbole as a form of political or social argument so we should completely beat up on any woman who does, although, as the link points out, she says she didn't say this and no one has pointed us to a book or speech where she did.
There is validity to the argument that sexism pervades our entire society, which is based upon patriarchy, and, thus pervades, often in ways too subtle for the participants to identify, all the relationships in our society, including romantic relationships. I'm a fairly feisty feminist and patriarchy and sexism both played rolls in my marriages. The statement that all heterosexual intercourse is rape is simply a hyperbolic way of acknowledging the fact that all relationships in our society take place in the context of a sexist, patriarchial system.
It's no different from acknowledging that, although i try very hard not to be racist, all my interactions with African Americans take place withing the context of a racist society that both, for example, my African American secretary and I may fail to perceive in any givern interaction.
a bunch of loganberry canes
I put in 90 feet of Tayberries two years ago. I have never seen so many berries in my life come from so few canes. Those berry breeders at the U of Edinburgh are genius.
Overheard recently:
When does a man become a bird?
When Cheney pulls the trigger.
Heh.
"Are you a man or a titmouse? No, really, I'm askin'."
On Dworkin. She was extreme in her statements, true, but if you read her
autobiography you can sort of see what made her so. She really had horrible
experiences of sexual violence in her life and she got very little support after
they happened.
Echidne of the snakes | Homepage | 02.18.06 - 5:49 pm | #
I'm not without sympathy, and yes
Dworkin really did have an awful early
life.
That said, I'm reminded of
what Triumph
the Insult Comic Dog said about
Eminem:
"Hey, my mom was a bitch too, but
I don't go around
writing songs about it."
The NYT is citing Snopes to back up an assertion.
That is sad, but people do cite it all the time.
Say, NYMary&Thers? I mailed your lace out too, and the clerk and I decided that a gift to a new infant son of a couple of Irish RCs probably shouldn't be sent out with a postage imprint of $6.66. So we changed it to $6.67.
Well, thankee!
This is an ACTUAL QUOTE from MacKinnon's "Feminism Unmodified". MacKinnon, who, folks, is no friend of liberals, is lying about what she wrote. This is not unusual for her.
Sometimes even wingnuts are right.
dan | 02.18.06 - 5:43 pm | #
I'm sorry, equating sexual harassment, porstitution and marriage, is not the same thing as saying that all sex is rape.
One could argue that (especially traditionally) that marriage had some of the same coercive elements present in prostitution and sexual harassment.
I don't think that this is true, but it isn't nearly as batshit crazy as arguing that all sex is rape.
Just Sayin'
This is a distinction without a difference. One statement is just as outrageous as the other.
Main theme for Republican ads in the 2006 Congressional Elections:
Resistance is Futile.
Let's start a poll:
How soon after I turn on the
Beltway Boys on Fox will Fred
Barnes and/or Milton Kondracke make
me want to poke myself up the
nose with a burnt stick?
Help me out here, people!
Hey bats.
How soon after I turn on the
Beltway Boys on Fox will Fred
Barnes and/or Milton Kondracke make
me want to poke myself up the
nose with a burnt stick?
Can we use fractions?
Not for lack of trying...
Eli
Holy shit! Nice gothic touch to the paragraph titles.
hi vicki.
Americans often fail to recognize patriarchy in action. Fish often fail to recognize water.
In fact, while this and similar statements equating heterosexual intercourse and rape have often been atttributed to MacKinnon, she has long and vigorously denied having made such assertions or that they represent her beliefs
See, this is exatly like something David Irving would say. Dworkin and MacKinnon wrote enormously long books very badly, so that it is not really practical to quote them -- at one point in her excellent Defending Pornography, Nadine Strossen destroys Dworkin's mantra of out-of-context quotation by lifting an entire page -- and those books were dedicated to unscholarly and unreadably clumsy stream of conciousness pap that look to any reader like the demonization of sex. It is like how Hitler never actually said that one often-used line about unruly students; everyone knows this is how he feels about dissent, but that particular construction is wrong. (Also from the wrong time.) It is impossible to see the fault of this technically incorrect quote if you've had the misfortune of reading Dworkin.
On Dworkin. She was extreme in her statements, true, but if you read her autobiography you can sort of see what made her so. She really had horrible experiences of sexual violence in her life and she got very little support after they happened.
Echidne of the snakes
Yeah, I remember being initially disturbed by some of the things Dworkin wrote. Then when I read about the fucked-up shit that happened to her I thought, Well hell, that would make me an extremist, too.
Also, the Vice President got drunk and shot an old man in the face.
Holy shit! Nice gothic touch to the paragraph titles.
Yes... "Gothic"...
all my interactions with African Americans take place within the context of a racist society
Reminds me of me bitching to the black administrator at school about the nice white secretary at the PT job, who opined that CS King must have been "rolling in her grave" about the comments at her funeral.
It sounds ironic, but I hope Glinda (the black lady in question) didn't take it that way.
she said one outrageous statement, therefore we can invent literally ANY outrageous quote and attribute it to her.
I like this game.
The statement that all heterosexual intercourse is rape is simply a hyperbolic way of acknowledging the fact that all relationships in our society take place in the context of a sexist, patriarchial system.
Hecate, people use hyperbole all the time. But if others choose to ignore the context, which they certainly can do, the point is invalidated.
I hope people are learning to choose their words more carefully.
Also, the Vice President got drunk and shot an old man in the face.
All shooting people in the face is rape.
After Jayson Blair and Judith Miller, I think the NY Times had better use Snopes because their reporters and editors aren't getting the job done.
Having read Andrea Dworkin and Susan Brownmiller, I've always wondered why Dworkin takes more criticism when Brownmiller is actually more deserving of it.
If you read "Against Our Will" Brownmiller seems to argue that the idea of the black male rapist has some credibility.
Andrea Dworkin was a more equal opportunity male basher.
But I didn't know you could grow apples in Phoenix. My backyard neighbors have a tree that drops apples in my yard all July long. I go out out night and throw them back into their yard.
Theoretically you can. But the bareroot little dwarf tree was a big $8.00 so I'll give it a shot - I've got a great big terracotta pot that should suit it. Anna apples were first developed in Israel and only require about 100 hours under 40F, which we can manage here, generally. I had one a couple of years ago that was going pretty well til about July - then it burned to a crisp. This one in a pot I may be able to grow.
Want some yellow calla lily corms? And I got lingonberry canes too! Those I can grow, I know, 'cause I can grow raspberries and blackberries. Dill, lingonberries - maybe I can raise salmon in the pool?
Been cleaning all day. I'm not as far along as I'd like to be, either.
But I have listened to some great music.
Pulled Peter Gabriel's "US" out. That is one intense compilation. I think it has AA themes throughout..."digging in the dirt, to find the places I got hurt..." communication, denial, all of it.
MacKinnon and Dworkin did nobody any favors with their antiporn crusade, though. The legislation that came out of it stunk. In Canada some of Dworkin's own bools were seized under the law she'd helped promote.
It was just too easy for wingnuts and fundies to hijack that whole feminist antiporn movement.
Hi, Vicki!!!
MacKinnon and Dworkin did nobody any favors with their antiporn crusade, though.
Agree, completely.
Yeah, I remember being initially disturbed by some of the things Dworkin wrote. Then when I read about the fucked-up shit that happened to her I thought, Well hell, that would make me an extremist, too.
I think part of it was the fact that Dworkin was trying to imitate some of male "new journalists" and their tendency to act like provocateurs.
Ever read Mailes's "The White Negro"?
The problem is that Mailer was just a better writer than Dworkin.
She really had horrible experiences of sexual violence in her life and she got very little support after they happened.
But Dworkin was not just a woman. As a scholar she had a duty she never came close to upholding to be clear. This is a person who breathed what sounded an awful lot like hatred for sex in every ranting disorganized speech and then was shocked and insulted to see people thinking she meant what she said. She worked with rightists every chance she got and screwed us all again by being the one "feminist" those same assholes always go straight to for mass demonization. She went to her grave faking rape stories and cut off from any meaningful feminism. She is not worth defending.
Hi, Steve!
*Mwah*! And Dirk! And, and, and...
everybody!
We're like the Waltons here! Waltons, after dark, that is...
for the record I feel no need to "defend Mackinnon" I just see this one trotted out every week and the fact that it isn't actually true doesn't seem to bother people in the slightest. And our new friend dan thinks that the fact taht she said ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS he doesn't like means that making up NEW THINGS is perfectly acceptable.
weird world.
I'm not without sympathy, and yes
Dworkin really did have an awful early
life.
That said, I'm reminded of
what Triumph
the Insult Comic Dog said about
Eminem:
"Hey, my mom was a bitch too, but
I don't go around
writing songs about it."
True. That is why i'm not defending Dworkin's writings. I only wanted to point out that she didn't get to say those things without reasons. What she didn't get is the therapy that would have allowed her to see past her own experiences and to put them into proper perspective. Which wouldn't mean that they were not important to understand.
Pie, she said that she was a prostitute in her early life. She was abused as a child, according to her own testimony, and she was stalked and harassed by a man in Holland that she may have married. She also argued that she was gang-raped at some point in her life.
So we changed it to $6.67.
Well, thankee!
Thers
De nada, absolutemente!
s/Lace Curtain Irish Prot.
.
Anna apples were first developed in Israel and only require about 100 hours under 40F, which we can manage here, generally. I had one a couple of years ago that was going pretty well til about July - then it burned to a crisp.
Have you tried the netting you sometimes see above the plants in nurseries?
What murdered it the sun or the heat?
It was just too easy for wingnuts and fundies to hijack that whole feminist antiporn movement.
As we have frequently seen, if it hadn't been anti-porn rhetoric, it woulda been something else. But you're likely correct.
I wonder what self-proclaimed porn feminist Amanda Marcotte would have to say about this.
All heterosexual intercourse with Kate O'Beirne is rape.
This is a distinction without a difference.
The major difference between the two is one was actually written, the other wasn't. A rather important distinction imho.
One statement is just as outrageous as the other.
dan | 02.18.06 - 5:56 pm | #
I don't think that this is true. They both may be outrageous, but I could see where someone was coming from on the actual quote even if I don't agree with it at all.
You are all wrong. The glory of God shines on George Bush and all unborn children are his. He has no sex but instead is all of us.
All heterosexual intercourse with Kate O'Beirne is rape.
All politics is non-consensual ass fucking.
[...] How soon after I turn on the
Beltway Boys on Fox will Fred
Barnes and/or Milton Kondracke make
me want to poke myself up the
nose with a burnt stick? [...]
steve simels - 5:56 pm
Well, I would guess that it will take seconds rather than minutes, so I'll be conservative and guess 45 seconds.
Just as long as you confine your response to the burnt stick and don't try to blow yourself...
All politics is non-consensual ass fucking.
SWR
Although some of the more egalitarian types will occasionally offer a reacharound.
One good reason that CNN cancelled the Capitol Gang...
No more Kate O'Beirne on Saturday nights at 7:00 PM.
Always vile, that woman.
Oddly enough I clicked on this thread right after downloading a Mia Zapata album on iTunes.
Want some yellow calla lily corms? And I got lingonberry canes too! Those I can grow, I know, 'cause I can grow raspberries and blackberries. Dill, lingonberries - maybe I can raise salmon in the pool?
I'm going to wait and see if the callas I planted last year come back. I'm right on the edge of being too far north to grow callas. Lingonberries, I can't grow, but I buy at the farmers' market every year and make one pie and some jelly so I can feel a connection to my ancestors. The salmon I don't think will grow in the pool, they are, as I learned doing hyrdoelectric law, are androgynous fish. But a dinner of cucumbers w/ yogurt and dill, salmon grilled w/ dill, baby potatoes w/ dill and lingonberry pie would make me long for the fjords.
What murdered it the sun or the heat?
It was the sun. I'd planted it in an aesthetically pleasant location that got about 15 hours of direct sun in a day. The almond tree planted about six feet off side is thriving - blossoming now in fact - but it's only getting around 4 hours of direct sun. This one tho, as a mini, dwarf, I figure I can put into my humungous pot and put where it can be happy. Probably in the dappled sunshine that comes thru the orange trees.
How soon after I turn on the
Beltway Boys on Fox will Fred
Barnes and/or Milton Kondracke make
me want to poke myself up the
nose with a burnt stick?
Scooter Libby wrote a book on this very subject!
Although some of the more egalitarian types will occasionally offer a reacharound.
Not to the author of Women Who Make the World Worse.
she said one outrageous statement, therefore we can invent literally ANY outrageous quote and attribute it to her.
Exactly.
Andrea Dworkin was a more equal opportunity male basher.
SWR
What would Dworkin have said about all the Eschaton trolls who never get laid, and have to stay home and whack off to porn? At least they aren't out "raping" women, right? But on the other hand they are exploiting the women in the pornos. In her view, was there *any* outlet for male sexuality that didn't involve a gross violation of some sort?
Is gay sex rape, too?
What McKinnon actually said is a lot more complicated and theoretical than what she has been attributed. If I remember her correctly she was talking about the way in which marriage and sexual relations historically have been framed so that in the traditional marriage the husband was really "hiring" the wife to provide sexual and childrearing services and housekeeping in exchange for bed and board, and that this was not an equal contract between two parties but much more like a labor contract. Given that women traditionally had few options to make a living in other ways, prostitution being one of those few exceptions, it could be argued that consenting to sex for women wasn't free of all these societal links. Because they were making the decision from a place of disadvantage.
But a dinner of cucumbers w/ yogurt and dill, salmon grilled w/ dill, baby potatoes w/ dill and lingonberry pie would make me long for the fjords.
I can make that!
I can grow potatoes and cucumbers and dill and lingonberries all here at home. I'll send Arthur and his basket and amex card out for the rest.
I'm thinking I'll put in the lingonberry canes near the grapes.... This is good, 'cause it's right on the irrigation channel.
What would Dworkin have said about all the Eschaton trolls who never get laid,
The typical LGFer pretty much proves everything Andrea Dworkin said.
she said one outrageous statement, therefore we can invent literally ANY outrageous quote and attribute it to her.
I like this game.
Atrios | 02.18.06 - 5:59 pm |
Actually no, she didn't write even that one.
You're missing the point and this obviously isn't very important t you. Let's make it important; let's write ten chapters demonizing the Jews and not ONCE saying any violence should come to them. Or take a transcript from Michael Wiener, who does exactly that and then indignantly defends himself with this lawyer talk about what exactly was not said. Change the settings and it becomes instantly comprehensible.
"Sex = rape" is a perfectly accurate summary of a certain confusion common in all patriarchal cultures and very evidenced even in certain modern media; a scholar working with this kind of thing would be perfectly correct to try to explain it. Because Dworkin never tried, while she never said it, it is a more than fair summary of a lot of what she wrote. And since a writer is responsible not just for the specific words a lawyer hangs onto, but for reasonable tones and inferences an objective reader can clearly find inbetween the words, it does matter that that piece of shit is forever being thrown back in our faces.
She is not one of us.
Her execreble (execrable?) wrongs are not ours.
All shooting people in the face is rape.
Eli
What about consensual face-shooting?
In Canada some of Dworkin's own bools were seized under the law she'd helped promote.
I don't want to even think about Dworkin's own bools, much less seize them.
Hi GWPDA, you're lucky to be down there out of the cold this week. We were hoping that the real cold might not come this year, but it was down to -34C last night. Still, a couple of days is better than a couple of weeks.
Is gay sex rape, too?
Only if it's good.
But Dworkin was not just a woman. As a scholar she had a duty she never came close to upholding to be clear
kei & yuri | Homepage | 02.18.06 - 6:02 pm | #
The typical LGFer pretty much proves everything Andrea Dworkin said.
SWR | 02.18.06 - 6:09 pm |
yes
What she didn't get is the therapy that would have allowed her to see past her own experiences and to put them into proper perspective. Which wouldn't mean that they were not important to understand.
So she got to put pen to paper, and her writing was published.
But she was obviously damaged. And her detractors ignored that, criticized her, and used her as an example of damn crazy women.
Do I have that right?
It has been an oddly troll-free day, come to think of it...
...aw, damn, it...why do I always do that? One should be along any second now...
What about consensual face-shooting?
Buzz Bomb | 02.18.06 - 6:10 pm |
Part of the point is the question of whether consent is really possible.
A close reading of her work reveals that Dworkin ached just like a woman; made love just like a woman, and she faked just like a woman.
But she breaks just like a little girl.
Going to see Dougie MacLean tonight at the Town Hall in Seattle.
[humming Caledonia]
Is gay sex rape, too?
Only if it's good.
You naughty boy, you...
But she was obviously damaged. And her detractors ignored that, criticized her, and used her as an example of damn crazy women.
Do I have that right?
pie
Yes.
As a scholar she had a duty she never came close to upholding to be clear
Dworkin wasn't a scholar. She was a polemicist and memoirist, but not a scholar.
MacKinnon's Only Words is quite lucid, actually, and provocative. I don't agree with it but it is certainly scholarly.
What she didn't get is the therapy that would have allowed her to see past her own experiences and to put them into proper perspective.
You mean like the kind of therapy in the 50s and 60s that helped gay men cure themselves or the kind of traditional Americanized (as opposed to real Freudian therapy) Freudian therapy that just told women to accept their place?
Therapy is profoundly different now in 2006 partly because of feminism and the gay rights movement.
But she was obviously damaged. And her detractors ignored that, criticized her, and used her as an example of damn crazy women.
Do I have that right?
pie | Homepage | 02.18.06 - 6:13 pm |
Yes, although you could add that she happily collaborated with natural enemies. The people making her the Great Demon of Feminism are former allies repaying her as rightists best can.
AAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHHH!
There's a car horn on my block
that's been honking for fifteen
goddamn minutes!!!!!
But she breaks just like a little girl.
Nearly everyone does. It's the pain, I think.
Well, if all sex is rape, I can think of a number of times when I was the rape-ee
Just sayin'
Clinton did it!
There's a car horn on my block
that's been honking for fifteen
goddamn minutes!!!!!
Toby finally decided to take you up on your offer to have him blow you.
You naughty boy, you...
It's been quite a while, but I was..................
So she got to put pen to paper, and her writing was published.
But she was obviously damaged. And her detractors ignored that, criticized her, and used her as an example of damn crazy women.
Do I have that right?
I think so, anyway. But she did write in an overgeneralizing way, without seeing that her practical experiences are not necessarily the experiences of all women everywhere. This is not an uncommon feeling among people who have been traumatized, but recovery usually means that one gets past that point.
The way to read Dworkin (if one wishes to do so) is by using a demagnifying glass (or whatever it's called). Then the points she makes can be interesting.
Part of the point is the question of whether consent is really possible.
Bingo. And, who has to apologize, afterwards. Does anyone have any doubt about who played the male role and who played the female role in the recent shooting? What would that tell an alien observer about our culture? What would it tell the alien about patriarchy?
We haven't seen Only Words. Our experience is more with Dworkin. We notice nobody has pointed this out yet, but the idea of "sex=rape" is a Dworkin thing, not a MacKinnon thing. They overlapped somewhat but they also had some different directions. Rightists are consistently wrong about everything, even their own errors.
You mean like the kind of therapy in the 50s and 60s that helped gay men cure themselves or the kind of traditional Americanized (as opposed to real Freudian therapy) Freudian therapy that just told women to accept their place?
Therapy is profoundly different now in 2006 partly because of feminism and the gay rights movement.
A good point, of course. There probably was nothing available for her.
Part of the point is the question of whether consent is really possible.
If Dick Cheney wants to shoot you, you'd better just lie back and enjoy it.
I spent most of the day at a vocal workshop that our choir held, had a professional vocal coach down from Columbus. Learned some things about how to open up the structures just above the larynx.
Hecate, aren't salmon anadromous (sp?) fish, rather than androgynous?
I'm thinking corncakes with a bit of finely chopped jalapeno in them and honey on them with some bacon on the side might be good for dinner.
Oh, and re the thread topic? Facts don't matter under the current regime.
I spent most of the day at a vocal workshop that our choir held, had a professional vocal coach down from Columbus. Learned some things about how to open up the structures just above the larynx.
Hecate, aren't salmon anadromous (sp?) fish, rather than androgynous?
I'm thinking corncakes with a bit of finely chopped jalapeno in them and honey on them with some bacon on the side might be good for dinner.
Oh, and re the thread topic? Facts don't matter under the current regime.
Reminds me of the original Michael Jackson "Thriller" video...
--
Toby finally decided to take you up on your offer to have him blow you.
SWR | 02.18.06 - 6:16 pm | #
LOL!
Rightists are consistently wrong about everything, even their own errors.
That could serve as their capsule description, IMHO.
See whats-his-name, "On Bullshit."
There's a car horn on my block
that's been honking for fifteen
goddamn minutes!!!!!
Yesterday my battery went dead on my alarm remote right after I set it off by mistake. It didn't have the juice to reset and the spare was at home. Weird size battery too. 15 minutes of frantic searching found one. Embarrassing.
All photography of circular objects is rape.
Valerie Solanas was who Andrea Dworkin is supposed to be. Victimization, horrible childhoods and confused efforts to fight back are much better explained with her story.
McDonald's fries possibly not kosher!
The way the media works has something to do with all this, too. You get attention if you are extreme. On talk shows they want you if you yell and scream and bare your vampire fangs. Then we all discuss the most extreme versions of everything.
I wonder how many here have read The Sceptical Feminist, for example. Many of the good writings of the 1970's are now dead because they were not extreme enough to attract our attention.
Hecate, aren't salmon anadromous (sp?) fish, rather than androgynous?
You are correct.
Valerie Solanas was who Andrea Dworkin is supposed to be.
Solanas had a sense of humor.
without seeing that her practical experiences are not necessarily the experiences of all women everywhere.
They were her experiences, but someone should have pointed that out.
If something could be gained by demagnifying, I'm not sure the lessons would be learned by those who most need to learn them.
Depressing.
Radical feminism is a bad thing, only because if it weren't for those pesky radical feminsts, Kate O'Beirne would be Mrs. John Smith.
Her world would revolve around having Mr. Smith's slippers and a martini waiting by the door at 6 pm, shuttling the kids to Little League and ballet, baking cookies and popping out more little ones in her spare time.
On talk shows they want you if you yell and scream and bare your vampire fangs
Yes and no. Extreme rightists are all over the television as rightists or centrists. Leftists are almost totally absent and weaker liberals are preferred but heavily outnumbered.
Why am I not surprised that Ana Marie Cox (a/k/a/ the former Wonkette) would be guilty of parroting a mindless yet harmful inaccuracy. And of writing this condescending and self-important crap:
"Her salvos against such dusty icons as Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem, Jane Fonda and Catharine MacKinnon do all these women the enormous favor of making them relevant again."
While none of these women can be said to have spearheaded, if you will, the anal sex movement, as has Cox, I doubt that she would be taken half as seriously as she is were it not for their pioneering work.
Show some respect for your elders, twinkette, for you have the privilege of standing on their shoulders. Even if you choose, instead, to squat.
heterosexuals always aim for the wrong hole
I wonder how many here have read The Sceptical Feminist, for example. Many of the good writings of the 1970's are now dead because they were not extreme enough to attract our attention.
Echidne of the snakes
One more reason to support your local scholar.
Keeping obscure texts alive for over 1000 years.
If Dick Cheney wants to shoot you, you'd better just lie back and enjoy it.
Buzz Bomb
You'd obviously be "asking for it".
Valerie Solanas was who Andrea Dworkin is supposed to be.
Solanas had a sense of humor.
steve simels | 02.18.06 - 6:22 pm | #
Andy Warhol was most likely quite free of the crime of heterosexual intercourse.
In her view, was there *any* outlet for male sexuality that didn't involve a gross violation of some sort?
Your soap, your shower.
Mentioning a canon of great feminists without bell hooks is everything you need to know about the twit.
"Her salvos against such dusty icons as Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem, Jane Fonda and Catharine MacKinnon do all these women the enormous favor of making them relevant again."
While none of these women can be said to have spearheaded, if you will, the anal sex movement, as has Cox, I doubt that she would be taken half as seriously as she is were it not for their pioneering work.
Show some respect for your elders, twinkette, for you have the privilege of standing on their shoulders. Even if you choose, instead, to squat.
Newton Minnow
Bloom, Harold.
Influence, Anxiety of.
If something could be gained by demagnifying
Andy Warhol was most likely quite free of the crime of heterosexual intercourse.
SWR | 02.18.06 - 6:24 pm |
He sure fucked a lot of women over for a fairy.
Even if it were proved that every single thing the righties claim Dworkin said was false, they'd just move the goalposts a bit further out to Valerie Solanas.
Radical feminism is a bad thing, only because if it weren't for those pesky radical feminsts
Thanks for your confidence in women to manage their own lives.
On talk shows they want you if you yell and scream and bare your vampire fangs. Then we all discuss the most extreme versions of everything.
Except if you're a progressive, otherwise we would see Ward Churchill, Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn in person (not just talked about) 24/7. For progs on TV, it's "oh, those nasty people are just TOO EXTREME to be allowed to appear and make their own arguments."
the anal sex movement
I wasn't aware there was one!
While none of these women can be said to have spearheaded, if you will, the anal sex movement, as has Cox,
Cox didn't do that; Tristan Taormino did.
Andy Warhol was most likely quite free of the crime of heterosexual intercourse.
SWR
if you think of soup cans as male
Damn - day late and comment short.
Vicki, just reading through here, you mentioned AA songs. A friend of mine recently made a great record based on
the twelve steps
Except if you're a progressive, otherwise we would see Ward Churchill, Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn in person (not just talked about) 24/7.
Tweety, for all his faults, does put Amy Goodman and Tom Frank on his show.
the anal sex ***chastity*** movement
ezra ette, sorry. I guess I don't understand why you think that's funny.
=="Feminists" have in the past called for the cutting up of presumably all men!
-That's not true, SCUM had a men's auxiliary!
Mentioning a canon of great feminists without bell hooks is everything you need to know about the twit.
What k&y said. The master's tools . . . .
If something could be gained by demagnifying
sorry
i took it out of context
loved the opposites:
gain = demagnify
Tweety, for all his faults, does put Amy Goodman and Tom Frank on his show.
No doubt at least once a year, whether he has to or not.
Radical feminism is a bad thing, only because if it weren't for those pesky radical feminsts
Thanks for your confidence in women to manage their own lives.
pie
I was actually being sarcastic. The only reason Kate O'Beirne has a voice in the market place of ideas today is because of the "radical feminists" she maligns.
If it weren't for them, Kate O'Beirne wouldn't be shit - she wouldn't even be Kate O'Beirne, she'd be Mrs. John Doe.
They are also delicious fish. I like a filet marinated for an hour or so in wasabi, soy sauce, and brown sugar, then braised with spinach. A bit more wasabi and soy poured over once it's done. Or a filet coated with almond meal, sauteed in butter with broccoli, and lemon juice squeezed over the lot.
You know, I'm beginning to think it's getting to be supper time.
Thomas Frank is not even in the orbit of Chomsky, Churchill and Goodman. He's an example of a "reasonable" lefty, and how rarely you see him, or have him in with Ward (versus people like Bozell, Liddy, Buchanan, etc) is a good indicator of the slant.
The master's tools . . .
That was Audree?
audrey hepburn in a black evening gown using a router
now thats progressive feminism
If it weren't for them, Kate O'Beirne wouldn't be shit - she wouldn't even be Kate O'Beirne, she'd be Mrs. John Doe.
This reminds me of Margaret Thatcher saying that she owes nothing to feminists as what did they ever do for her. Except for getting her the right to vote and run for office...
He's an example of a "reasonable" lefty, and how rarely you see him...(versus people like Bozell, Liddy, Buchanan, etc) is a good indicator of the slant.
Duh. (not directed towards k&y, but just sayin').
Well Lourde too.
evening moonbats
aarrrggghhhh
please dont blame feminists for getting maggie thatcher in the big chair!!!
(i know you weren't)
The only reason Kate O'Beirne has a voice in the market place of ideas today is because of the "radical feminists" she maligns.
Sorry, stinky.
She's paid by men to write her shit.
There are prostitutes, and then there are whores, and then there are those who are both.
The oldest profession keeps reinventing itself.
The master's tools . . .
That was Audree?
I'm pretty sure it was bell hooks, but it may have been Audree Lord. Now I'll have to go google.
Thomas Frank is not even in the orbit of Chomsky, Churchill and Goodman. He's an example of a "reasonable" lefty, and how rarely you see him, or have him in with Ward (versus people like Bozell, Liddy, Buchanan, etc) is a good indicator of the slant.
But Tom Frank and Amy Goodman actually ARE leftists and able to defend the left's point of view, as opposed to, say, Bob Schrum or Donna Brazille or Susan Estrich.
15,000 protest in London against cartoons
More than 15,000 people joined an angry but peaceful protest in central London today against the Prophet Muhammad cartoons that have infuriated many in the Muslim world.
Buses brought participants from cities around Britain to gather in Trafalgar Square, and they later marched through central London to Hyde Park, from where the crowd began dispersing late in the afternoon.
"Free speech = cheap insults," read some placards. "How dare you insult the blessed Prophet Muhammad?" asked another.
when a whore is not a prostitute
and a prostitute is not a whore
you keep your money
and you pay your money
and you go home not satisfied with being satisfied
and satisfied with being not satisfied
Bloom, Harold.
Influence, Anxiety of
Gah. A hideous book.
But Tom Frank and Amy Goodman actually ARE leftists and able to defend the left's point of view, as opposed to, say, Bob Schrum or Donna Brazille or Susan Estrich.
SWR
Right, and the latter three are the type you usually see on TV, whereas Frank is on once in a blue moon, or never.
The positive advancements in women's rights don't register with people who haven't experienced life without. They are either young and lack an inquisitive mind or worse, they were present and completely clueless.
Fifteen killed in Nigerian cartoon riots
Nigerian rioters have killed at least 15 people after a protest against the publication of cartoons of the Prophet Muhammed descended into violence, a police spokesman says.
Witnesses told reporters that protesters turned on the Christian minority in the northern city of Maiduguri on Saturday, burning shops and churches, after police dispersed a rally called to condemn European newspapers that printed the caricatures.
A police spokesman, Deputy Commissioner Haz Iwendi, told reporters that army troops and police reinforcements had been deployed to the city and that a curfew had been imposed to bring about a return to order.
I find it ironic that my when my ex was getting ready to bail on me, she was heavy into bell hooks, Alice Walker and Bebe Moore Campbell. When even now, feminism is one of the (fairly large number of) thing we actually AGREE about.
Always has me shaking my head.
when will the cartoon protests extend to pen and paper?
The last sentence from the linked Editors' Note -
"MacKinnon traces the origin of her identification with such statements to attempts by ideological opponents to discredit her."
If one looks at the 'attempts' [irony lives] like that, then the NYT is just the sewer pipe and is not responsible for the shit running through it.
-
SWR | 02.18.06 - 6:33 pm |
Yes.
And it was Audre, but it also *summarizes nicely without quoting* (ahem) a siginficant contribution of hooks', which was to include mention of race and class.
Right, and the latter three are the type you usually see on TV, whereas Frank is on once in a blue moon, or never.
Buzz Bomb | 02.18.06 - 6:35 pm | #
I agree. I was just remarking that occasionally Tweety puts an actual leftist on his show.
This reminds me of Margaret Thatcher saying that she owes nothing to feminists as what did they ever do for her. Except for getting her the right to vote and run for office...
Echidne of the snakes
The core principle which that entire philosophy teeters upon is that Father Knows Best. Father will instruct you if and when you may participate.
Well, the downside is that often Father doesn't know jack shit.
Deadly bird flu widens its reach
The deadly H5N1 strain of bird flu has continued to spread around the world, with France becoming the latest country to confirm the presence of the virus.
French officials said tests on a duck carcass showed it had died from the disease, hours after Iran and India confirmed their first cases.
The H5N1 strain has killed at least 90 people since it emerged in 2003.
It can be caught by humans who handle infected birds, but it is not yet known to have been passed between people.
Ahianne, I'm doing a pork roast covered with garlic, rosemary, and olive oil, potatoes added at some point.
I miss my husband who, no doubt, is eating canned soup and a sandwich.
Well, Harold Bloom is a hideous man. Pinter is a better Harold.
Well, Harold Bloom is a hideous man. Pinter is a better Harold.
You're just anxious over his influence.
goodnight moonbats
Well, the downside is that often Father doesn't know jack shit.
Men in power are not winning any popularity contests.
Unfortunately, they don't care.
If things keep going this way:
'Sharpie' pens today disassociated themselves from the cartoons drawn by a Danish cartoonist.
'Hilroy' stated that their papers were not used.
'Bic' pens were burned in a Pakistani bonfire.
Protestors today targetted the Lumber industry in Denmark for providing paper for the cartoons.
With George W Bush there is no need for abberant forms of sex. All sperm flows through him as the ultimate arbiter of life (unless you are black or arab)
And it was Audre, but it also *summarizes nicely without quoting* (ahem) a siginficant contribution of hooks', which was to include mention of race and class.
It's all about ladders and who has the right to get up a rung or so.
The core principle which that entire philosophy teeters upon is that Father Knows Best. Father will instruct you if and when you may participate.
Exactly. It defends itself with a false meritocracy -- women must prove they are equal before being respected as such, if that ever happens, but even granting ideals there is no comparable process for men.
Well, the downside is that often Father doesn't know jack shit.
Max Planck
Sometimes he even gets drunk and shoots you in the face.
mother earth is getting ready to teach jehovah a major lesson. and we'll all pay.
Sounds great, pie. I've got some chicken thawing for tomorrow but I'm really thinking about corn cakes tonight.
Exactly. It defends itself with a false meritocracy -- women must prove they are equal before being respected as such, if that ever happens, but even granting ideals there is no comparable process for men.
kei & yuri
If they really prove themselves equal, they're marginalized and attacked that much more. "Pretty good for a girl" is the highest award these guys are willing to give out, usually.
If George W Bush shoots you in the face you should ejaculate with joy and hallejujahs.
mother earth is getting ready to teach jehovah a major lesson. and we'll all pay.
ezra ette
When Mom and Dad fight, it's the children who suffer most.
If they really prove themselves equal, they're marginalized and attacked that much more. "Pretty good for a girl" is the highest award these guys are willing to give out, usually.
Phila
cheney's a pretty good shot for a girl""
Ok. Now I'm dressed for the arctic weather outside, to go and buy dog food.
If you never hear from me again, remember that I lurved you all.
The old lies, well, you know, they really are the best lies.
"Pretty good for a girl" is the highest award these guys are willing to give out, usually.
The highest honor is their cock.
"Pretty good for a girl" is the highest award these guys are willing to give out, usually.
The highest honor is their cock.
kei & yuri
I thought the highest honor was to be so intimidated that one's cock would not harden in the presence of such a diabolical woman.
Damn. I just googled and it was Audree, not bell hooks, who said that. And I've been attributing it to Ms. hooks for years, and years, and years. And I got the fish screwed up. This is what happens when you get old. Well, if bell didn't say it, she could have.
But haven't we seen this insane movie before? Oh yeah, it was called primogentiture for about 2 millenia. Not to be a spoiler, but that plan didn't end so well.
The highest honor is their cock.
kei & yuri
Sucking it, mind you.
The highest honor is their cock.
The highest honor is to get shot in the face.
If they really prove themselves equal, they're marginalized and attacked that much more. "Pretty good for a girl" is the highest award these guys are willing to give out, usually.
"There are individual African-American women icons, myself included, who get to occupy a space on the left, and it’s OK to occupy this honorary space, but we should really try to sway young people to move from their conservatism and liberal individualism to a more militant left politic." -- bell hooks
This is what happens when you get old
You become totally divine? Worth hanging on to every word you utter? If so, that is lovely.
And now I'm really out of the door.
Ok. Now I'm dressed for the arctic weather outside, to go and buy dog food.
If you never hear from me again, remember that I lurved you all.
Are you bucking to be included in the next Disney flick?
Just don't get shot in the face.
Damn. I just googled and it was Audree, not bell hooks, who said that. And I've been attributing it to Ms. hooks for years, and years, and years. And I got the fish screwed up. This is what happens when you get old. Well, if bell didn't say it, she could have.
See? The original problem again. It certainly describes well one of hooks' major points, but it wasn't actually used by her in those words.
Well, I have no St. Bernard with cask of brandy to send to Echidne's rescue should she be lost. I could tie a thermos of tea to my biggest cat, but he'd probably refuse to look for her.
Respect the cock!
Around the time I stopped reading "National Lampoon" (1979 or so), P.J. O'Rourke was arguing that the face women made while sucking cock was the supreme expression of sexual ecstacy...much more attractive than the "silly" faces and sounds they made during intercourse, according to him.
Just imagining Ahianne's cat with the thermos of tea, and its expression after being asked to go find Echidne.
But Tom Frank and Amy Goodman actually ARE leftists and able to defend the left's point of view, as opposed to, say, Bob Schrum or Donna Brazille or Susan Estrich.
SWR | 02.18.06 - 6:33 pm
wordy-word-word...
have you read/heard 'the confessions of an economic hitman'?
if not, you should (must); if so, pass it along...
.
This is really bizarre: Where The Asians Aren't.
for the record I feel no need to "defend Mackinnon" I just see this one trotted out every week and the fact that it isn't actually true doesn't seem to bother people in the slightest. And our new friend dan thinks that the fact taht she said ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS he doesn't like means that making up NEW THINGS is perfectly acceptable.
No making up new things may not be acceptable. But you're completely ignoring the politics of this.
How does the debate go?
Rightie: "MacKinnon said, all sex is rape."
Atrios: "Oh no she didn't! Never! That's a myth!"
Rightie: "OK, maybe she didn't say that exact quote. But here IS an exact quote 'Feminism stresses the indistinguishability of prostitution, marriage, and sexual harassment'. I guess you're going to defend that?"
Atrios: "Oh, no, I'm not going to defend THAT quote! In fact that quote was outrageous!"
Rightie: "So why the hell are you coming to her defense?"
Atrios: "Because she didn't say the exact thing you said!"
Rightie: "Look, Mr. Atrios, maybe in your little world there's a big stinking difference between on statement in the other, but for most people, we just don't care. What we care about is the values she advocates. And they are WAY out of line. Maybe you want to split hairs here, but most of us want to look at the big picture, and with Mackinnon it's ugly as sin."
Who wins this political argument in the eyes of the public? Rightie, hands down.
Moral: don't figure out ways to defend MacKinnon against false attribution - figure out ways to keep her political poison as far from one as possible.
The highest honor is to get shot in the face.
SWR
If you get shot in the face by his holiness George the Lesser, you should have the decency to commit seppuku.
Respect the cock!
Frank "T.J." Mackey
Frank. Frank, Frank, you don't even-- you're glib. You don't even know what cock is.
I'm thinking corncakes with a bit of finely chopped jalapeno in them and honey on them with some bacon on the side might be good for dinner.
Do you deliver?
George W Bush is the ultimate master at manipulating the Master's tool. He lubricates it and works it with such mastery that none can dare to observe his shining visage, dripping with adoration which we must seek to emulate.
Well, k&y, but, here, someone actually said it and I just screwed up on who it was. I'm old. After a while, it all kind of blends together.
Around the time I stopped reading "National Lampoon" (1979 or so), P.J. O'Rourke was arguing that the face women made while sucking cock was the supreme expression of sexual ecstacy...much more attractive than the "silly" faces and sounds they made during intercourse, according to him.
Phila
What the...? What a moran. He should just go get sucked off by a guy. It sounds like that's what he really wants.
BTW, listeners of NPR, does Dianne Reims have Bell's Palsy or something? He speech tonality and cadence make me think she's constantly being stabbed while on air.
He's a long lanky gray Russian Blue-like fellow. Looks kind of like Wiley. Goofy guy who often has his ears cocked at odd angles.
Respect the cock!
Frank "T.J." Mackey
The pecker knows now bigotry!
P.J. O'Rourke was arguing that the face women made while sucking cock was the supreme expression of sexual ecstacy...
Bleahh. Phila is great but this image of O'Rourke...
BTW, listeners of NPR, does Dianne Reims have Bell's Palsy or something? He speech tonality and cadence make me think she's constantly being stabbed while on air.
Max Planck
She's got something...can't remember what, though.
Moral: don't figure out ways to defend MacKinnon against false attribution - figure out ways to keep her political poison as far from one as possible
Please bite me. That is all.
WoodyGuthrie'sGuitar(aka | 02.18.06 - 6:51 pm |
Hitman is an excellent one-volume summary of a case that could alternately and perhaps preferably be built through a stack of different kinds of books, pamphlets, reports and polemics. However, it is a crazy bio with all kinds of lurid and totally unverifiable claims, like unrecorded personal conversations between the author and the seductive spy organization trainer or a Latin American head of state. It's not for the conservative relative on the edge of sanity (Thomas Frank is ideal for that).
Moral: don't figure out ways to defend MacKinnon against false attribution - figure out ways to keep her political poison as far from one as possible.
frankly0
So, freedom of speech is dead?
Gee, and to think I was here for the funeral.
does Dianne Reims have Bell's Palsy or something
I think she wrote a book about losing her voice.
He speech tonality and cadence make me think she's constantly being stabbed while on air.
Exactly.
Moral: don't figure out ways to Moral: don't figure out ways to defend MacKinnon against false attribution - figure out ways to keep her political poison as far from one as possible.
I don't know that anyone here is proposing to "figure out ways to defend MacKinnon against false attribution" in any right/left forum we're likely to have access to...however, I should think the proper course is to blow off the accusation, but to bring up the 349,857 examples of beastly behavior that righties PROUDLY indulge in.
So, freedom of speech is dead?
Of course not.
You're entitled to be as politically stupid as is your heart's desire.
What the...? What a moran. He should just go get sucked off by a guy. It sounds like that's what he really wants.
Buzz Bomb
I don't think he's a closet case; he's more your garden-variety cloddish halfwit. Yet another guy who tried to turn his midlife crisis into a philosophy.
France's other immigrant "problem".
WGG,
I read that book. What scared me was that I believed every word.
But Tom Frank and Amy Goodman actually ARE leftists and able to defend the left's point of view, as opposed to, say, Bob Schrum or Donna Brazille or Susan Estrich.
SWR | 02.18.06 - 6:33 pm
wordy-word-word...
But really the point is true.
If we're going to be subjected to a constant parade of Likud Party shills posing as "terror experts" we should get the other side.
Steve Emerson should be paired with Robert Fisk or Noam Chomsky, not allowed to be trotted out as a seemingly unbiased expert.
Buchanan or William Donahue should have to face (and I'm having a harder time coming up with an example of an anti-religious figure than an anti-Israel one) maybe someone on the order of Steven J Gould.
It's absurd to be happy when you think Bob Hebert's inclusion on a cable news show means the radical left is represented.
GWPDA - I kinda suspect they'd get cold before I got to Arizona.
Look, MacKinnon is political poison.
Does anybody REALLY disagree with that point?
et another guy who tried to turn his midlife crisis into a philosophy.
I'm stealing that.
bell hooks izza BAHMB!!!
i had the honor and pleasure of having had dinner with her once, in a smallish company (maybe a dozen of us all together)...was instrumental in getting her invited to the conference...my pay-off was to sit pretty nearly silent (any of you knowing me, know that's unusual) for a couple of hours and listen...
.
.
I can grow potatoes and cucumbers and dill and lingonberries all here at home. I'll send Arthur and his basket and amex card out for the rest.
I'm thinking I'll put in the lingonberry canes near the grapes.... This is good, 'cause it's right on the irrigation channel.
GWPDA, yclept Irate Scholar | Homepage | 02.18.06 - 6:09 pm
Good Scandie food. I think I need you to adopt me.
Look, MacKinnon is political poison.
Does anybody REALLY disagree with that point?
Bite me.
Around the time I stopped reading "National Lampoon" (1979 or so), P.J. O'Rourke was arguing that the face women made while sucking cock was the supreme expression of sexual ecstacy
At least to most men.
I loved O'Rourke back then. The short story he wrote about a trip to Vegas was classic.
You're entitled to be as politically stupid as is your heart's desire.
frankly0
This has been explored a lot at Metacomments lately...why the Left is so intransigent about taking advice on poise and deportment from its enemies. I mean, they try so hard to be helpful, and look how we treat them...
ood Scandie food. I think I need you to adopt me.
Buckeye, Dealer of Rare Coins
Yah, but if you want oranges you have to send an address to me, so as to participate in the second round. www.gwpda.org
So, freedom of speech is dead?
Of course not.
You're entitled to be as politically stupid as is your heart's desire.
frankly0
well, clearly I could take lessons from you in being publicly stupid.
Since I wasn't defending McKinnon or Dworkin, but neither was I condemning them since they might have written something I found poorly reasoned.
But as you are, apparently, the fount of all reason and understanding, we will simply ask you to pass judgment from now on on all statements, and we will merely acquiesce.
Would that make it easier for you?
I should think the proper course is to blow off the accusation, but to bring up the 349,857 examples of beastly behavior that righties PROUDLY indulge in
That's great to say, but every once in a while one is actually obliged to answer a direct question, and if that question involves MacKinnon or her ilk, it pays to have an answer that works.
Look, MacKinnon is political poison.
Does anybody REALLY disagree with that point?
frankly0
To quote the late lamented Chicago: "Does anybody really care?"
Look, MacKinnon is political poison.
Few people have heard of MacKinnon, let alone care who she is.
The real "political poison" goes by the name of Bob Schrum, Donna Brazille, Willie Brown, Chuck Schumer, and Joe Biden.
MacKinnon at her worst can give you a bad case of indigestion. The latter group is like sucking arsenic through a fire hose.
Yet another guy who tried to turn his midlife crisis into a philosophy.
Oh, so I shouldn't do that?
GWPDA - I kinda suspect they'd get cold before I got to Arizona.
Ahianne
What about wrapping them in a blankie? Or in the recipe card?
Anyway. I've got Trader Joe's crab bisque, with a little doctoring of sherry, chopped green onions, a handful of shrimp, black pepper and garlic, cooking for dinner. Corncakes would be very nice!
it pays to have an answer that works.
I would think that "an answer that works" would be something like, "whatever MacKinnon says, to imply that she has a major impact on liberal policy-making is just plain ludicrous. Now, what was it that Dick Cheney's good friend, Rush Limbaugh just said yesterday about (fill in the blank)?"
This has been explored a lot at Metacomments lately...why the Left is so intransigent about taking advice on poise and deportment from its enemies.
And your evidence for the idea that I'm an enemy to the left would be my comment here?
That's really a penetrating thought.
That's great to say, but every once in a while one is actually obliged to answer a direct question, and if that question involves MacKinnon or her ilk, it pays to have an answer that works.
frankly0
I do so love a responsive troll.
Tell us, how do you feel about Bush's lie to all the world about Saddam throwing the weapons inspectors out of Iraq?
?BTW, listeners of NPR, does Dianne Reims have Bell's Palsy or something? He speech tonality and cadence make me think she's constantly being stabbed while on air.
Max Planck - 6:54 pm
Not Bells...
something blank blank dysphonia?
obby Kennedy has the same affliction...
I loved O'Rourke back then. The short story he wrote about a trip to Vegas was
classic.
billy b | 02.18.06 - 7:00 pm | #
The great Lampoon writers didn't
turn out so great.
Doug Kenny killed himself. Michael
O'Donahue died too young (of editorial
poisoning -- hah!).
Ed Bluestone disappeared, PJ O'Rourke
turned into a wingnut, and Jeff Greenfield
has mostly gone over to the Dark Side
as well.
That's really a penetrating thought.
frankly0 | 02.18.06 - 7:04 pm | #
When discussing Andrea Dworkin one should really avoid the use of that particular adjective.
This has been explored a lot at Metacomments lately...why the Left is so intransigent about taking advice on poise and deportment from its enemies. I mean, they try so hard to be helpful, and look how we treat them...
Phila | Homepage | 02.18.06 - 7:00 pm | #
As I recall, frankly0 is a liberal that used to post here (or maybe at Kos) fairly regurlarly.
That said, worrying about being tagged with the extremist beliefs of Dworkin anf MacKinnon is really fucking stupid.
Look, MacKinnon is political poison.
Does anybody REALLY disagree with that point?
frankly0
Yeah, she's almost as bad as Ward Churchill. Progressives should really stop choosing people like them as our national spokespeople, and start looking for more moderate voices like Michelle Malkin, Glenn Beck, and Pat Robertson.
FWIW, everybody---if you're not familiar with frankly0, he is not a troll.
A pain in the ass, but not a troll.
When discussing Andrea Dworkin one should really avoid the use of that particular adjective.
Point taken.
it's one of those things, you know, that any time a man has sex with a woman it's from a position of power and its an exertion of dominance.
Even when the woman is on top?
Dworkin was a serious piece of work...and basically allied herself with authoritarian fucks like the sack of pigshit Falwell. So we can dismiss her horseshit out of hand.
Look, MacKinnon is political poison. Does anybody REALLY disagree with that point?
"Political poison" is the tell here. nothing matters but what will sell. We had been attacking D&MK, not because they were politically unexploitable (indeed, when they were allied with the antiporn crusade they made a great sell; you jerks are still advertising your "even feminists hate porn" lies) but because they were wrong. The larger error is that it wasn't us who brought them up (who the hell has heard of either harpy in years, outside of trivia or this quotation business? Dworkin for example is dead and married to Ted Bundy in hell). It was your side that broght this up, incorrectly, and then blamed us for...what? Not preemptively correcting you? What on earth would keeping MacKinnon's poison away look like? All a dalek ever has to say is that they shouldn't have to face opposition because the other side shouldn't exist.
frankly0 isn't really a troll, FWIW.
frankly0 isn't really a troll, FWIW.
NTodd, Sin Ick
If it cheeps like a pen-raised quail in flight through the sunset....
Jeff Greenfield has mostly gone over to the Dark Side as well.
Sadly, I remember early Greenfield lamenting that news coverage of politics was too much about the "horserace" aspects and not enough about policy. He sure stopped giving a shit about THAT, long ago.
I'm with K&Y on this subject (not surprisingly).
They've said the last word(s) for me.
Speaking of MacKinnon and political poison, is there anybody on the left who's anti-porn anymore?
The real issue with sex/porn is that there's a loose consensus between the left and right.
Nobody on the left (in the mainstream media anyway) called bullshit on the Janet Jackson incident for example. Nobody said "what's the big fucking deal?"
Point taken.
You like taking point don't you? Why won't you just stop? Stuff your innuendos already.
When discussing Andrea Dworkin one should really avoid the use of that particular adjective.
Point taken.
frankly0 | 02.18.06 - 7:06 pm | #
I hope you meant to do that. But it's still funny if you didn't
If it cheeps like a pen-raised quail in flight through the sunset....
He's not. You see him a lot over at Washington Monthly (or used to, when I hung there), and he's generally "on our side", though sometimes is annoyingly contrarian. That does not make one a troll.
Forgive me for a more cosmotological viewpoint but I tend to discount perspectives that are filtered through one lens or another. When we begin dividing people and their points of view, we are missing the point.
If you believe that reality is different for men and women then you are missing the picture. Certainly the manifestations of reality are mixed. Men have advantage in certain situations, women in others. To argue whether one is more advantaged than the other is to also belie the central point that, as HUMANS, we are tasked with journeying to a place of peace and contentment.
Whether we arrive or not is an individual perception. I cannot grant you the knowledge or wherewithall for you own personal reconcilliation of reality. That is your task.
To these ends all HUMANS should strive for freeing their fellow HUMANS' abilities to seek the understanding they desire. To inhibit another's journey is to belittle your own efforts to achieve harmony.
If your place of solace is the bottom of a bottle or the top of the heap: it is YOUR choice.
If I dismiss another because of their sex or appearance or intelligence I do not limit them, I am limiting myself.
When I have limited myself to the point where my point of view has coefficient of reality: I have marginalized myself to the point where I am irrelevent.
(And, though I fear it, that is not my place of solace)
frankly0 isn't really a troll, FWIW.
No, but he hasn't been here in a while, under that name, anyway.
I've been out for a while... has "Full Choke" Cheney shotgunned anyone in the face lately?
-
Nobody on the left (in the mainstream media anyway) called bullshit on the Janet Jackson incident for example. Nobody said "what's the big fucking deal?"
SWR
I thought she had decent tits for a 40-something chick...
But you are right. I felt like the lone ranger asking that very question. I'm sure the FBI porn-squad is watching me. I think the NSA forwards them my more suggestive emails.
Rmj, Wandering Aengus | Homepage | 02.18.06 - 7:08 pm |
Which last words specifically? We're trying to record this.
The great Lampoon writers didn't
turn out so great.
Yo, brother.
I remember Roger Daltry's commentary on Townsend's songwriting ability being attributed to his being fairly screwed up or some such.
When I have limited myself to the point where my point of view has coefficient of reality: I have marginalized myself to the point where I am irrelevent.
Good grief.
He's not. You see him a lot over at Washington Monthly (or used to, when I hung there), and he's generally "on our side", though sometimes is annoyingly contrarian. That does not make one a troll.
Maybe that's where I remember him from. And no, troll is not a word that would apply.
That does not make one a troll.
NTodd, Sin Ick
Speaking ex-cathedra as a part-time contrarian, I get that.
In my defense I'm on cold medication and I'm due to crash soonly.
As I recall, frankly0 is a liberal that used to post here (or maybe at Kos) fairly regurlarly.
Fair enough. Regardless, anything anyone to the left of Lieberman says in public is going to be represented in the media as irresponsible, out-of-touch, or worse. Hell, last time I checked, we're all supposed to repudiate Howard Dean as an extremist...while the Right gets to indulge publicly in erotic daydreams about nuking Mecca.
Fuck 'em all. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that some of the stuff Marx wrote was pretty reasonable. How's that for living on the edge?
If you believe that reality is different for men and women then you are missing the picture. Certainly the manifestations of reality are mixed. Men have advantage in certain situations, women in others. To argue whether one is more advantaged than the other is to also belie the central point that, as HUMANS, we are tasked with journeying to a place of peace and contentment.
Nah.
what city does echidne live in, that it is that cold.
I agree--a nice glass of cognac before the dog walk, will be very nice.
Hell, last time I checked, we're all supposed to repudiate Howard Dean as an extremist
Update your talking points. Al Gore is the new Howard Dean.
Speaking ex-cathedra as a part-time contrarian, I get that.
The Pope's here?
I have yet to look up or improvise a recipe. Will report back later on results. Later, 'bats.
ah, Pie, you will thank me later.
Fuck 'em all. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that some of the stuff Marx wrote was pretty reasonable. How's that for living on the edge?
Phila
When I educate folks at work here in the Midwest about the actual origin of capital (difference between the value of labor and what one pays for labor) I make sure to tell them that Marx was right.
I expect to be shot in the back before I leave.
I have marginalized myself to the point where I am irrelevent.
It's probably bad form to suggest a spell checker for such a spiritual swan song.
Fuck 'em all. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that some of the stuff Marx wrote was pretty reasonable. How's that for living on the edge?
Next you're gonna tell me that maybe we oughta socialize health care.
Loon!
Fuck 'em all. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that some of the stuff Marx
wrote was pretty reasonable. How's that for living on the edge?
Phila | Homepage | 02.18.06 - 7:12 pm | #
"Hey -- those guys Marx and Engels
were really on the ball!"
-- classic Nat Lampoon piece,
by (I thinki Doug Kenny)
"That's great to say, but every once in a while one is actually obliged to answer a direct question, and if that question involves MacKinnon or her ilk, it pays to have an answer that works."
If McKinnon is a loser, it's because of their lies. No different from Kerry, Murtha, Peace, National security, America's reputation.
Since the Republican party lies as a matter of policy about everything and everyone they disagree with, you propose simply allowing every lie to go unchallenged?
.
Nah.
masculine_monica_nyc
alternative viewpoint?
The Pope's here?
NTodd, Sin Ick
BATTLE POPE!
For those who know that GREAT comic....
Good grief.
pie
heh. You funny, girlfriend.
You nailed the fact that the comment was pretentiously obtuse.
some of the stuff Marx wrote was pretty reasonable.
I'd agree with you, but I'm likely remembering someone else.
I can understand that my point may seem troll-like.
But really there IS something of significance that I'm trying to get across.
And that point is that it just DOES NOT PAY in politics to split hairs like this. Effective political talk is ALWAYS simple, and usually to the point of being simplistic.
MacKinnon, as a whole, is political poison -- and she can be made to represent a subculture of feminism, fairly or not.
When you're dealing with political poison, what you try to do is distance yourself from it. You DON'T try to engage in careful parsing, because no one in the public is going to understand that. They will, at best, see the larger picture if they see anything.
So attempts to shoot down misattributions to MacKinnon are likely to have only one effect: a backfire. You're just setting yourself up for a knockout punch if you fall for the trap.
I'm just sort of drugged up and doing political free-association, really.
The Pope's here?
OK. It's time to out my real identity.
In my real life my name is Joseph Ratzinger.
But you can call me Bennedict.
As me what I really think of that dumb Polack I had to kiss up to for the last 3 fucking decades. Jesus Christ I'm glad he finally cashed in.
BTW, abortion. Don't care. Gay sex. had it. Porn. All the time.
Don't believe everything the Vatical public relations department puts out.
Max, and the counter argument is?
-- classic Nat Lampoon piece,
by (I thinki Doug Kenny)
Kenney was fucking genius.
Fuck 'em all. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that some of the stuff Marx wrote was pretty reasonable. How's that for living on the edge?
My younger had a date with someone who works at the DoD last night. He said he was a liberal.
My antennae went up immediately. I told her it was troubling that he said that.
We have political parties in this country, but *Liberal* isn't one of them.
When you're dealing with political poison, what you try to do is distance yourself from it. You DON'T try to engage in careful parsing, because no one in the public is going to understand that. They will, at best, see the larger picture if they see anything.
frankly0
Then how has Commander Codpiece been able to get away with all his careful parsing around the Plame scandal for the past three years or so?
And that point is that it just DOES NOT PAY in politics to split hairs like this. Effective political talk is ALWAYS simple, and usually to the point of being simplistic.
You are aware, of course, that people here are having a discussion about the linked article and related issues, right?
This isn't a policy-setting meeting; there is no political gain or loss to be had here.
Perhaps you give the comments section of this blog too much and too little credit.
Yah, but if you want oranges you have to send an address to me, so as to participate in the second round. www.gwpda.org
GWPDA, yclept Irate Scholar | Homepage | 02.18.06 - 7:00 pm |
Well, I thought I had, and Yahoo! gave me no delivery failed stuff. I shall resend.
billy b,
and you call me pretentious? I am not the person who is perceiving the world in terms that someone else has dictated for the express purpose of being confrontational?
Reality and fantasy are not necessariluy compatible.
Max, and the counter argument is?
DWD - Challenged
Come out swinging at the bell.
CNN is interviewing a blogger that says the cheney coverage was over the top.
and you call me pretentious? I am not the person who is perceiving the world in terms that someone else has dictated for the express purpose of being confrontational?
Point taken, my friend.
cnn's susan malveaux asks why bloggers were obsessed with the drinking angle.
My younger had a date with someone who works at the DoD last night. He said he was a liberal.
My antennae went up immediately. I told her it was troubling that he said that.
We have political parties in this country, but *Liberal* isn't one of them.
Were they talking about political parties, or political philosophies?
I call myself a liberal, too. And I ain't a member of a party.
CNN is interviewing a blogger that says the cheney coverage was over the top.
jack
From LGF? Powerline? Free Republic? InstantIdiot?
majority of audience at cnn town meeting says cheney coverage was too much.
Later, you all can talk about me (or not) while I am picking young DWD up from the airport.
I meant what I said and please do not dismiss it out of hand. We are all just people. We are all just trying to find a justification for our existence. To dismiss this point is to miss the wonder of the journey.
Frank has something of a point! MacKinnon is being defended when, if she could, she would attack us. Ward Churchill said the same thing a lot of affluent white Jews did without much trouble before him and for that he got dropped like child molestor with bubonic plague. Why was there no question of defending Churchill?
(In principle defense of both is right since it comes down to the superior concern for precision characterizing the left.)
blogger(maverickviews.com) being interviewed on webcam says the coverage was deeply partisan.
cnn's susan malveaux asks why bloggers were obsessed with the drinking angle.
CNN's Susan Malveaux is pretty stupid if she has to ask why.
CNN is interviewing a blogger that says the cheney coverage was over the top.
jack
From LGF? Powerline? Free Republic? InstantIdiot?
The Chocolate Proton | 02.18.06 - 7:21 pm | #
I'd bet money it was Jeff Jarvis.
And your evidence for the idea that I'm an enemy to the left would be my comment here?
That's really a penetrating thought.
frankly0
I don't know you. If other people say you're not a troll, fine. Lately, we've been overrun with well-meaning "strategists" who want to explain to us how to avoid being seen as extremists, or apologists for extremists. IMO, they've ignored the simple fact that in today's climate, anything and anyone can be portrayed as an extremist. Hell, the way Kos and Atrios are demonized in some circles, they're probably more of a threat to MacKinnon's good name than vice versa.
DWD,
My intention was not to be dismissive or patronizing. You're a good man. Chin up, dude.
Rmj, Wandering Aengus | Homepage | 02.18.06 - 7:08 pm |
Which last words specifically? We're trying to record this.
kei & yuri
You give me too much credit.
These:
"Political poison" is the tell here. nothing matters but what will sell. We had been attacking D&MK, not because they were politically unexploitable (indeed, when they were allied with the antiporn crusade they made a great sell; you jerks are still advertising your "even feminists hate porn" lies) but because they were wrong. The larger error is that it wasn't us who brought them up (who the hell has heard of either harpy in years, outside of trivia or this quotation business? Dworkin for example is dead and married to Ted Bundy in hell). It was your side that broght this up, incorrectly, and then blamed us for...what? Not preemptively correcting you? What on earth would keeping MacKinnon's poison away look like? All a dalek ever has to say is that they shouldn't have to face opposition because the other side shouldn't exist.
my analysis of the blogger. smart ass kid, clueless about politics. he calls himself an independent.
majority of audience at cnn town meeting says cheney coverage was too much.
Wow, that proves a lot. Maybe we should all engage in some serious, non-partisan self-reflection.
cnn's susan malveaux asks why bloggers were obsessed with the drinking angle.
This woman is as out of touch with reality as is Bootsy.
Lord have mercy, Susie - the correlation betwixt alcohol consumption and less than optimal performance is pretty nigh nil, eh?
I've always tried to incorporate this bit of Marx into my daily life"
Wherever you go
Whatever you do
I will be right here waiting for you
Whatever it takes
Or how my heart breaks
I will be right here waiting for you
(ducks)
"CNN is interviewing a blogger that says the cheney coverage was over the top."
I agree. I'd certainly prefer to never have to read a word about Cheney, or see his ugly, corrupt face, again.
Except for that shit about him shooting an old man in the face. I can't get me enough of that shit. That shit is hilarious!
.
You nailed the fact that the comment was pretentiously obtuse.
I don't need accolades for that. Thanks anyway.
When you're dealing with political poison, what you try to do is distance yourself from it. You DON'T try to engage in careful parsing, because no one in the public is going to understand that. They will, at best, see the larger picture if they see anything.
Political poison? The Bush administration has been nothing short of poison, period. And the public does understand that, doll.
You'd never know it from watching the carefully-scripted, marketing-directed assholes who control the media and the message, however.
When you're dealing with political poison, what you try to do is distance yourself from it. You DON'T try to engage in careful parsing, because no one in the public is going to understand that. They will, at best, see the larger picture if they see anything.
Please.Bite.Me.
Wow, that proves a lot. Maybe we should all engage in some serious, non-partisan self-reflection.
Better yet, that blogger who said the coverage was over the top should be invited to go on a hunting trip with the Vice President.
Effective political talk is ALWAYS simple, and usually to the point of being simplistic.
That doesn't mean that simplistic political talk is always effective, though.
Effective political talk is ALWAYS simple, and usually to the point of being simplistic.
That doesn't mean that simplistic political talk is always effective, though.
OT: Press the Meat, Russert has an anti choice swine against a pro-choice advocate. A mother of three , greandmother of five, who personally had an abortion to raise the other three.
RMJ, thanks
they've ignored the simple fact that in today's climate, anything and anyone can be portrayed as an extremist.
Phila nails it.
And now, I'm off...bye, moonbats.
OT: Press the Meat, Russert has an anti choice swine against a pro-choice advocate. A mother of three , greandmother of five, who personally had an abortion to raise the other three.
Mr.Murder
So, is Timmeh doing his usual stage-managing so she can't get her points out?
Maybe we should all engage in some serious, non-partisan self-reflection.
I know just the law professor who can help us! And nothing she said has ever been political poison!!!
cnn's susan malveaux asks why bloggers were obsessed with the drinking angle.
Can we get CNN talk about how every news report has dropped the "Ultimately" from Cheney's statement taking "responsibility" for the shooting?
("Taking"? What, it was something he could have given away?)
When you're dealing with political poison, what you try to do is distance yourself from it.
Ahh yes, what Bush does so well with Rove, Abramoff, Ken Lay, al-Saud, Atwater, Lynndie England, and so on. So honest-looking, that.
the most effective political talk is eschatalogical.
I call myself a liberal, too. And I ain't a member of a party.
This guy is 24 years old and writes white papers (that's the correct term, right?- which he did say no one pays attention to).
I may be too suspicious, but not without reason.
Effective political talk is ALWAYS simple, and usually to the point of being simplistic.
That doesn't mean that simplistic political talk is always effective, though.
Phila
well, if you can get it on a bumper sticker. Like this:
When you're dealing with political poison, what you try to do is distance yourself from it. You DON'T try to engage in careful parsing, because no one in the public is going to understand that. They will, at best, see the larger picture if they see anything.
Please.Bite.Me.
Hecate Malificent
See?
Can we get CNN talk about how every news report has dropped the "Ultimately" from Cheney's statement taking "responsibility" for the shooting?
("Taking"? What, it was something he could have given away?)
Rmj, Wandering Aengus
Well, he did take it from Whittington, who had taken it first, maudering on about sticking his face in Darth's shot column.
The same CNN audience diagnosed Schiavo as responsive...
Then how has Commander Codpiece been able to get away with all his careful parsing around the Plame scandal for the past three years or so?
Why does Bush do this?
Because he has to. He's in a fix, and he only splitting hairs can seem to get him out. Likewise with Clinton, and the meaning of "is".
Parsing is what a politician does when cornered.
But we AREN'T cornered when it comes to MacKinnon; we can avoid her altogether.
So did Mrs. A take Atrios out for a birthday dinner, or what?
the most effective political talk is eschatalogical.
No, it's scatalogical.
Jane O'Bierne is the GOP wrinkle of thew week.
But we AREN'T cornered when it comes to MacKinnon; we can avoid her altogether.
Or, you could bite me.
the most effective political talk is eschatalogical.
no, it's out of wedlock black love childacal.
conviction of people working over 30 years is that life begins at conception.
30 years?
What about centuries of jurisprudence and the words of faith that designate the formation of personality as the determinant of when life and civil compensation begin?
This guy is 24 years old and writes white papers (that's the correct term, right?- which he did say no one pays attention to).
Oh, does he do stuff for the Strategic Studies Institute?
So did Mrs. A take Atrios out for a birthday dinner, or what?
B&B birthday!
no, it's out of wedlock black love childacal.
kei & yuri
Appealing to the inner bigot in an American is like tossing a steak to the local junkyard dog. Easily done, but something of a waste.
But we AREN'T cornered when it comes to MacKinnon; we can avoid her altogether.
Or, you could bite me.
Hecate Malificent | Homepage | 02.18.06 - 7:29 pm | #
A short hostile comeback conflating sex and violence that lends credence to Dworkin's writings.
Sly.....
Now if you had said "fuck you" or "go fuck yourself" or "fuck yourself with a rusty chainsaw" or "go ram the Empire State Building up your Ass" it would have similarly proved Dworkin's points.
Or, you could bite me.
You should try some new material.
This was old the first time you used it.
Now if you had said "fuck you" or "go fuck yourself" or "fuck yourself with a rusty chainsaw" or "go ram the Empire State Building up your Ass" it would have similarly proved Dworkin's points.
SWR
Proved? Or proven?
This was old the first time you used it.
frankly0
She's taking notes from the Rethuglofascist methodology. She kept it short, ugly, and confrontational.
In essence, she has followed your advice. Is this where you say, "That's pretty good for a girl?"
This was old the first time you used it.
frankly0
She's taking notes from the Rethuglofascist methodology. She kept it short, ugly, and confrontational.
In essence, she has followed your advice. Is this where you say, "That's pretty good for a girl?"
Since we are talking about spikey subjects here's my latest frost picture.
http://static.flickr.com/25/
1013..._30479f9b79.jpg
go cheney-saw yourself!
"Proved? Or proven?"
En-prov-ulized
Provulated
Proofied
Pruff
.
In essence, she has followed your advice. Is this where you say, "That's pretty good for a girl?"
I always cringe when someone says "you throw like a girl" since a girl once threw a cast iron candlestick holder at my head and didn't miss.
Go fuck yourself, lovingly and gently!
Then shoot yourself in the face, but be nice!
Maybe too much of the tremendous and purposeful breakdown of effective government this past half decade can be seriously laid at the feet of one person. But my feeling is that Karl Rove has exerted an cynical, insidious, destructive influence on this nation's leadership that has become so systemic, that I feel it is unmatched.
I think his acid-dripping legacy blows right by the devastating setbacks we eventually overcame from the likes of McCarthy and Nixon. Atwater only drew up the blueprint of a U.S. monarchy through fear, Rove implemented the fuck out of it.
*proofiness!*
Go fuck yourself, lovingly and gently!
Then shoot yourself in the face, but be nice!
Bukkakewank!
Later, Moonbats.
The nicely-dressed man says that he can make artichokes that will make me sing. We shall see.
Sleep deeply and wake to a warm day.
Proven is used in the passive voice...
proved is the active voice...
that is all...
.
"...a girl once threw a cast iron candlestick holder at my head and didn't miss."
...Miss Purple, in the Ballroom?
.
But we AREN'T cornered when it comes to MacKinnon; we can avoid her altogether.
Sure, cuz everyone knows the full history of feminism and that history is never conflated with Dworkin's and MacKinnon's work, which is never thrown in feminists' faces.
PULL!
Later all...
I always cringe when someone says "you throw like a girl" since a girl once threw a cast iron candlestick holder at my head and didn't miss.
SWR
I once got a Pint glass in the head, thrown by a 'girl' from inside out thru a door to where I was sitting on the deck.
.
Jane O'Bierne is only out to make a buck, it would be a kings ransom to hear this drunk give her true opinion somewhere and contrast it to the party line...
The former NARAL director is on the table.
If it is true that GW and Big Time are on the outs I wonder if this means that GW might not be so willing to offer pardons to Libby and you know who.
Oh, does he do stuff for the Strategic Studies Institute?
Well, if they have another date, I'll ask her to ask him.
owl-sheets flapping in the firmament of space
But we AREN'T cornered when it comes to MacKinnon; we can avoid her altogether.
frankly0
OK, so if I've got this straight, we shouldn't "engage in careful parsing, because no one in the public is going to understand that." On the other hand, Bush engages in such parsing because "only splitting hairs can seem to get him out."
You sure you've thought this through?
The problem in nuce: Our opponents decide what constitutes "political poison." If you avoid MacKinnon, and I control the media, I can simply say that you're trying to "downplay" your ideological connection with her.
Personally, I'm sick to death of being given rhetorical advice from people who either don't know, or affect not to know, how political discourse works in this country.
Miss Purple?
There's no Miss Purple.
I always cringe when someone says "you throw like a girl" since a girl once threw a cast iron candlestick holder at my head and didn't miss.
This explains a lot!
Maybe too much of the tremendous and purposeful breakdown of effective government this past half decade can be seriously laid at the feet of one person. But my feeling is that Karl Rove has exerted an cynical, insidious, destructive influence on this nation's leadership that has become so systemic, that I feel it is unmatched.
Rove, though unique, is not sufficient unto himself. The rightwing revolutionaries built an infrastructure that was designed to destroy the government, to the extent that it has removed any remaining constraints on the government operating as a slush fund to the exclusive benefit of corporations and the upper class -- with the necessary exploitation of racism, homophobia, misogyny and class hatred to maintain a minimum of popular support.
Here's where Dworkin comes from:
Contract of Wifely Obligations
kei & yuri
You know, I'm normally against the death penalty, but...
Truth doesn't matter, if it fits the narrative well. Newt and Gingrich taught 'em that.
FranklyO, what you're describing is pretty much what happened to Noam Chomsky and Ed Hermann for pointing out that Pol Pot's death total was mixed with Henry Kissinger's. They were right, but so what? They've been tagged as "Pol Pot supporters" ever since.
I've always liked The Onion's take on "marriage as prostitution:"
Housewife Charged In Sex-For-Security Scam
September 23, 1997 | Issue 32•08
AKRON, OH—Area resident Helen Crandall, 44, was arrested by Akron police Sunday, charged with conducting an elaborate "sex-for-security" scam in which she allegedly defrauded husband Russell Crandall out of nearly $230,000 in cash, food, clothing and housing over the past 19 years using periodic offers of sexual intercourse.
"It's the biggest scam of its kind I've ever seen," Akron police chief Thomas Agee said. "We're talking coats, dishwashers, jewelry, sewing machines, bathroom cleansers—you name it."
According to Agee, undercover agents spotted Crandall's husband handing her $50 in cash at approximately 4 p.m., just 30 minutes after the two had sex. Crandall then drove off in her car, returning home two hours later with five bags of groceries.
"That's when we made the arrest," Agee said. "After tracking her for years, we finally had proof that she was buying all those goods with dirty money."
During the arrest, Akron police officials entered the Crandall household and seized more than 150 items Mrs. Crandall had received from her husband over the last 19 years, including a four-speed adjustable food processor, 12 pairs of earrings, a matching sofa and loveseat, a box of two-ply kitchen garbage bags, and a portable radio.
In exchange for these items, Agee said, Crandall's husband received sex an estimated 950 times—most frequently in the master bedroom, but also in the downstairs den three times, and once on the floor of the sewing room.
In addition to physical evidence, Akron police have collected considerable eyewitness testimony. More than 250 Akron residents have come forward to report seeing Helen and Russell Crandall together, and several said they witnessed Mr. Crandall flagrantly purchasing items for his wife.
"Sure, they'd come in here," said Ray Greene of Greene's House and Home. "I think the last time they got one of those box fans with the three settings."
Perhaps the most damaging testimony has come from Mr. Crandall himself, who on Tuesday told police that while the couple was dating in 1977, Mrs. Crandall—then known as Helen Steuben—demanded that he buy her a ring worth over $1,000 before he could have sex with her. The first sexual liaison took place some six months later at Bob's Honeymooner Hotel during an all-expenses-paid trip to Niagara Falls.
It was also in 1977, Mr. Crandall said, that his wife quit her job at Shippee Shoes in downtown Akron.
"Clearly," Summit County prosecutor Andrew Dravecky said, "after quitting her job, the accused began receiving money under the table from some other source: How else could she have afforded to not work? It's now pretty apparent that at that point she began supporting herself by providing a certain service to Mr. Crandall..."
Here is an interesting link; a deadly review of the work of MacKinnon and Dworkin originally published in the Nation:
http://www.maureenmullarkey.com/...says/
porn1.html
MacKinnon, for example, really did say
"The institution of intercourse is a strategy for subordination".
And
"If heterosexuality is the dominant gendered form of sexuality in a society where gender oppresses women through sex, sexuality and heterosexuality are essentially the same thing. This does not erase homosexuality, it merely means that sexuality in that form may be no less gendered. Either heterosexuality is the structure of the oppression of women or it is not."
Dworkin...well, read the quotes in the linked article. Really.
Their deep hostility to sex in general, and heterosexual sex in particular, is a very deep thread in their writing. Patai and Koertge were writing a feminist critique of some ills within the movement, not an antifeminist screed; I have their book, and it does speak to some very real ills in some strands of 1980s feminism.
hi all,
how exactly is it possible to say that: ""Penetrative intercourse is, by its nature, violent. But I'm not saying that sex must be rape."? Dworkin's position seems to be sugesting that penetrative sex is bad (unless we are somehow taking a value neutral view of what "violence" is as a concept), and that it isn't rape. OK, what is it if it isn't rape and its bad? inherently unequal? consensually rape?
what is the difference between saying all (penetrative) sex is violent and saying all (penetrative) sex is rape?
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