I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
I should read the link before I post.
Frist
Yes, you should, Nim. 
I did. Dammit.
Amy Goodman gives a shit, but she's in the minority.
HAAAAMMMMERRR TIIIMME
You didnt do crap zero..
Rockets
Bono is Brian Peppers!
Cant play Quake 3
i'm seeing double.
I heard a little bit of this on the radio yesterday. Without even knowing who Gordon was, I wanted to throttle the mealy-mouthed little shit as he hemmed and hawed and stalled, trying to run out the clock.
I should read the link, but I'm still on cuppa 1.
Okay, I'm cleaning my computer room. Back to it. I should blogwhore this first, though, because it's important, on a different level:
I received an e-mail from Scout. She'll be on the radio tonight, with lb0313, too, to discuss her trip to New Orleans. I also posted a "Feedback" post on the blog ~ please let us know your thoughts about the information she posted when she was in NOLA.
She also would like to know what you'd like to hear her address on the radio, so feel free to add that in the Feedback post, as well.
Thanks. Feedback
Here's the link to listen tonight.....
">WORT
I think it's 7:00 PM, but I'll find out for sure.
Thanks, everyone.
I don't know why haloscan is bothering with the counter any more. It might as well be stock prices.
wingnuts cannot name one postive outcome of this ammoral fucked up war
i'm seeing double.
Still drunk from last night, eh?
Rich white male Matt Y thinks Bush isn't so bad.
Still drunk from last night, eh?
Sallyh, Vicious Fishes |
schizophrenic. but usually, they are two different personalities, so this is wierd.
http://www.tpmcafe.com/node/27975
(also homepage)
Where's Silleigh?
.
Bikini'd owls gone wild upstairs.
Terror suspect bids to leave UK
An Algerian man who was held at Belmarsh prison as a suspected terrorist has begun negotiations to return voluntarily to his home country.
The man, 39, who is only known as 'A', said he and five other Algerians were being "mentally tortured" in the UK.
He was jailed without charge for more than three years under internment laws and later released on a control order.
He told the Press Association he was prepared to risk persecution in Algeria because he had no freedom in Britain.
"If I'm not going to have my freedom in this country then I have to go back.
I heard the end of the interview yesterday morning. Boy, was the guy touchy. Kept trying to break in on Amy, and was all Ross Perot-y, 'are you gonna let me talk?'
Did the space-time continuum just shift? Is this Atrios 1701-C?
This weekend marks the third anniversary of the launch of the Iraq invasion.
There should be massive protests in DC and across the country today but there isn't.
I'm in a horrible, depressed mood today. More than usual.
What a fucking prick. Amy skewered him good, and he didn't like it one fucking bit.
Boo fucking hoo.
P O'Neill--time and space in Blogger have been redefined.
There should be massive protests in DC and across the country today but there isn't.
Protests are being held across the country. I'm going to one at noon.
If they aren't "massive," ask yourself why you weren't there.
has it really been 3 years?
my how time passes quickly.
Mr. Hostess--don't know what city you're in, but there's one at 1 p.m. here in LA, and Monsieur and I may go.
semprini
when the war began in 2003 I was 17 years old and now I'm 20.
the years have flown by!
Dave--and Amy does it so politely.
Amy's a great interviewer. She asks great questions and never, ever talks over her guests.
I don't know if you understand how journalism works
I know you don't understand how journalism works.
Gordon sounds like the whinest Republican toady whenever actually confronted by an opposing viewpoint. He continually made the false statement that the interviewer would not let him answer the question, almost always after he just did. He also attacked the interviewer personally, more than once.
His answers to the questions (when he wasn't using the time to whine) were evasive. The aluminum tubes were used as evidence of a nucelar program, even though there was an ongoing disagrement about their utility for that purpose. When asked about this he skips over to "but there was other evidence of a nuclear program". When asked about the people who disagreed with the CIA assessment, he merely repeats that the CIA said something and that people who heard the CIA were convinced by their mistaken belief. You could see his head explode when confronted with the fact that one of the tube debunkers actually contacted him before the article was written.
How did this guy, with these logical and rhetorical skills, get a job in the first place?
Journalist = Arrogant assholes who can never bring themselves to admit that they are tools of the Administration?
MICHAEL GORDON: Wait, Amy, wait, are you going to let me talk? Are you going to let me make up what I wish I would have said, and give me some time to try to figure out how to make up some kind of bullshit story about why I didn't really say what I say I said? Wait, Amy, wait...
What struck me about the interview is how rude and arrogant Gordon was, constantly questioning Goodman's qualifications as a journalist. Lots of stuff like, "If you actually knew something about how journalism works..." An O'Reily defensive technique when you don't have a leg to stand on? Or has his incompetence just made him that insufferably arrogant.
I don't know if you understand how journalism works...
Oh, I really liked that. He's on a fucking news program and he's trying to piss like an alpha dog on the host.
Unfortunately for this tiny-pricked fuck, he was the one that slithered out of the studio soaked in urine.
Couldn't happen to a more deserving piece of shit.
velid--Amy's a complete pro, so no doubt she handled him well.
froam a wapo mag. article?
Abrahams, who has a vast knowledge of improbable scientific literature, compares Gier's work to that of two Cornell scientists who showed that one attribute of extreme incompetence is "that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent." The study, titled "Unskilled and Unaware of It," demonstrated that people who scored, on average, at the 12th percentile in tests of humor, grammar and logic assessed themselves to be, on average, at the 62nd percentile. Incompetence at the extreme is a double-whammy, the authors declare: "Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it." (Which explains Washington, in a nutshell.)
Hey, 'bats.
Watched this "interview" this morn - anyone who wanted to reach over and bitchslap Gordon ain't alone. Thank god he was in Washington, Amy Goodman isn't me, and she IS a professional.
What a fucking annoying little patronizing twit. (Gordon, that is.)
1watt--I read that study a long time back!
Found a lot of veracity in it, to be sure. The study was very well done.
So... is this thread still alive, or has a new one appeared in a wormhole that I cannot detect with my sensors?
.
So the DOE didn't buy the Al tubes theory, but 'they had a foot in each camp', supposedly, because 'they believed he was starting up his nuke program for other reasons'. Those reasons being the forged Niger documents maybe? I thought Central Intelligence was supposed to collate and synthesize all the available facts. IF DOE says the Al tubes is BS, then BELIEVE THEM on that, OK? Since no one at the CIA is has ever isolated 235U yellowcake I am willing to bet!.
And "State didn't doubt the chem or bio" -- well they didn't have any negative evidence either. But where was the positive evidence other than Chalabi? And the two (chem or bio) are not on the same scale in terms of lethality/destructuveness by any means. Saddam also had jet airliners of mass destruction, too if you really want a causus belli.
Jeffraham -- Rough night, hella rough week. I just got up 'bout an hour ago, and just got here. Thanks for what you sent. I want to set it up myself later, after more coffee, after I've shuffled around the munchkins descending upon Chez Silleigh this day.
'Morning (ahem), all!
You know, I wonder if this prick doesn't make it a condition of the interview that "only" the book be discussed, and if Amy just said fuck that and came at him with both guns blazing.
His attitude sure changed when the topic turned from "help me sell my book" to "let's discuss how you fucked up."
we're on a castaway thread.
http://www.haloscan.com/
comments...a=33140#7474970
BTW, how is NYMary doing? Any news?
Gordon sure has a lot of excuses.
Gordon is a Moron indeed!
Jeffraham--this thread appears to be alive and in good health. The other thread disappeared into the wormhole and never came out.
And how're my boys today?
AMY GOODMAN DESERVES THE fucking PULITZER AND THE fucking PEABODY AND THE fucking POLK AWARDS ALL AT ONCE
nobody in the USer press is as tenacious, or as knowledgeable...
nobody!
So... is this thread still alive, or has a new one appeared in a wormhole that I cannot detect with my sensors?
Been wondering that myself, mate.
Off to a belated breakfast, and then maybe a bit of a nap.
Have a great day, Patriots!!!
OT, but Assmussen's latest poll has Bush at 40. Even I'm willing to give Holden a pony for that.
Silleigh: Jeffraham -- Rough night, hella rough week. I just got up 'bout an hour ago, and just got here. Thanks for what you sent. I want to set it up myself later, after more coffee, after I've shuffled around the munchkins descending upon Chez Silleigh this day.
Cool -- glad you could make it. Have some coffee.
.
I heard a little bit of this on the radio yesterday. Without even knowing who Gordon was, I wanted to throttle the mealy-mouthed little shit as he hemmed and hawed and stalled, trying to run out the clock.
Ken | 03.18.06 - 12:34 pm | #
I gotta disagree with this, the guy was quite articulate, and he pleaded his case well. Not well enough, mind you.
There are enough bits out there in the media for him to dredge up that such-and-such critics of media coverage thought Saddam was a big threat, thought he had WMD's, etc. To go back and recreate the atmosphere, and how this guy and his fellow wankers did more to pump the war up than to point out the lies, is hard. He remembers (or has gone back to refresh himself on) every single word he wrote that can insulate him from charges he was a war whore. Amy was brilliant as usual, pointing out how deep inside the papers the contrary evidence was buried, and also pointing out the lies that the neocons weren't called on.
The guy's just fighting a delaying action. I bet that, regarding the presentation of facts contrary to the lies, his prewar reporting DID dot and cross most of its i's and t's. But you listen to the interview, as well as read up, and you know that the verdict is: he thought this thing was gonna be a hit, and he lined up his emphasis and his nuance accordingly, and the record doesn't lie, and he's not gonna look good in the long run.
Seems lying and misleading is totally unchecked in this Maladministration. Military has mislead before, but this one seems to be getting instant analysis as propaganda.
How US assault grabbed global attention
By Jim Muir, BBC News, Baghdad
It was billed by the US military as "the largest air assault operation" since the overthrow of Saddam Hussein in 2003, with attack and assault aircraft providing "aerial weapons support" for 1,500 US and Iraqi commandos moving in to clear "a suspected insurgent operating area north-east of Samarra." Paragraph breakThe early release of video and stills of the operation was unusual. Paragraph break
The international news agencies immediately rang the urgent bells on the story.
Around the world, programmes were interrupted as screens flashed the news, which dominated the global media agenda for the next 12 hours or more.
On the New York Stock Exchange, oil prices jumped $1.41 (£0.80) a barrel "with a massive US-led air assault in Iraq intensifying jitters about global supplies of crude", as one agency reported it. (Major snip)
The reasons for it being given such high-profile publicity are clearly open to speculation.
The operation came at a time when support at home for President Bush and his campaign in Iraq is running very low, and when the international media were preparing to focus on the third anniversary of the war, just three days later.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middl...ast/
4817762.stm
Heard this yesterday on the show. The reporter very carefully parsed his responsibilities, and pointed out several times that Colin Powell was convinced, therefore how could he Ithe reporter) have known otherwise? As if Powell had god-like prescience, and to question his information was to challenge the gods themselves.
Then he cited some guy's website, as proof that even experts thought Iraq had nuclear capabilities. Screw the IAEA and the weapons inspectors like Scott Ritter and Hans Blix. It was on a blog!
Complete wanker.
NTodd--isn't that The Only Poll That Matters(TM)?
I esp. liked this:
AMY GOODMAN: And we have to leave it there. But Michael Gordon, quick question--
Twist that knife, baby!!!
Sallyh: And how're my boys today?
Relatively happy and healthy, and one of 'em has a substance abuse issue, but not one that's of terrible concern.
.
Shorter Gorden:
"We're the New York Times and you're not."
reminds me of John Humphrys on the Today Programme when he is inteviewing a politican.
he really doesn't like it when they try to avoid answering his questions.
Retired General Bernard Trainor (the co-author) is a lot less cagey and coy about his feelings.
NTodd--isn't that The Only Poll That Matters(TM)?
Indeed it is. Fucker's going down. Hard.
Jeffraham--Curly doesn't appear to be abused
Eeek! I was posting on an open and it disappeared. Does that explain this goatee?
His attitude sure changed when the topic turned from "help me sell my book" to "let's discuss how you fucked up."
dave™©
Yeah, his excuse was pretty much: "If I f*cked up, then Colin Powell f*cked up."
And everybody by know pretty much knows, Colin Powell f*cked up. And should have known at the time he was being lied to.
Or he's lying about having been misled in the first place. Either way, it's a pretty lame defense.
On the New York Stock Exchange, oil prices jumped $1.41 (£0.80) a barrel "with a massive US-led air assault in Iraq intensifying jitters about global supplies of crude", as one agency reported it. (Major snip)
Even in a propaganda campaign, Chimpy can always find time to throw a couple hundred million to Big Oil at our expense. Gotta dance with the ones what brung you, right?
Holy sheep shit, Batman!
Thank you for posting that link, Atrios.
What an interview. Michael Gordon MELTS DOWN.
Jeffr, darlin', I can take a hint! Pouring more coffee... and gonna go see what I can dig up.
pointed out several times that Colin Powell was convinced, therefore how could he Ithe reporter) have known otherwise? As if Powell had god-like prescience, and to question his information was to challenge the gods themselves.
Gee, my Econ 101 professor knew he was full of shit and should be ashamed of himself.
Seems lying and misleading is totally unchecked in this Maladministration. Military has mislead before, but this one seems to be getting instant analysis as propaganda.
They really DO think it's all public relations.
Sallyh: Jeffraham--Curly doesn't appear to be abused
Never! Of course not -- but that catnip sock is feelin' a bit battered, these days. The last week or so, he's taken more of a liking to it. Maybe it's because I've been doing some cat fishing with it.
.
Yeah, his excuse was pretty much: "If I f*cked up, then Colin Powell f*cked up."
Well said. And fuck up they did.
Off to the hospital to see what the hells wrong with me.
Later bats.
NTodd--much as I like seeing the Boy King in free fall, I'm concerned that if he gets a lot lower, he's going to do something truly drastic.
Then again, I haven't had my second cuppa, so I might not be quite as paranoid in a while.
Sunnis condemn Shi'a call for Iran dialogue
Baghdad - One of Iraq's most prominent Sunni Arab organizations expressed its "indignation" over the recent appeal by a key Shi'a leader for Iran to open a dialogue with the United States over the situation in Iraq.
"We are indignant over the request made to Iran by (Iraqi) political parties to open a dialogue with the Americans on their differences regarding Iraq," said the statement by the hardline Muslim Scholars Association.
"The interference of Iran in Iraqi affairs is nothing new," said the statement, explaining that Hakim's call "does nothing more than legitimate this interference and give it an international cover."
On Wednesday, Abdel Aziz Hakim, head of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, one of the main Shi'a political parties in the country, called on Iran to talk to the United States and resolve their differences over Iraq.
much as I like seeing the Boy King in free fall
KER-BLATT!!!
Silleigh: Jeffr, darlin', I can take a hint! Pouring more coffee... and gonna go see what I can dig up.
Heh! No rush -- I was just intrigued by your e-mail premise... again, not sure what to make of the stars and planets stuff (I'm pretty agnostic on almost every level, y'know), but it sounded like fun.
.
much as I like seeing the Boy King in free fall, I'm concerned that if he gets a lot lower, he's going to do something truly drastic.
So long as it involves him pulling a Mishima, that's cool.
Then again, I haven't had my second cuppa, so I might not be quite as paranoid in a while.
Sallyh, Vicious Fishes
just 'cause you're paranoid doesn't mean he isn't one dangerous fucker ....
Notice how Gordon blames Rumsfeld (who came with an "agenda"), but Trainor says it's a troika: Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld were "joined at the hip."
Why is the General more honest than the journalist? Three guesses, first two don't count.
Gordon's a bit touchy on the issue, ya think?
He protests too much.
So long as it involves him pulling a Mishima, that's cool.
==
Pffft. That would require stones.
NTodd--I like the idea of Bush and seppuku in the same sentence.
And this administration saw that as a threat that required preemptive action, because -- not that Saddam Hussein was going to pop a nuclear weapon or chemical weapon here in the United States -- but he saw that after 9/11, the threat of amorphous terrorism, with terrorists getting chemical, biological weapons and ultimately nuclear weapons without any national fingerprint on it. And how do you deal with something like that?
For starters, you don't invade a country whose fingerprints weren't all over those weapons to begin with.
I love how they ignore the question of whether or not we should have invaded in the first place.
How terribly convenient.
So, uh, was there a baby born yesterday?
(Sorry. I've just been out of pocket.)
AMY GOODMAN DESERVES THE fucking PULITZER AND THE fucking PEABODY AND THE fucking POLK AWARDS ALL AT ONCE
nobody in the USer press is as tenacious, or as knowledgeable...
nobody!
WoodyGuthrie'sGuitar(aka | 03.18.06 - 12:56 pm | #
Woulda warmed the cockles of your heart to have been at the L.A. Times Festival of Books last year, and to have sat in the auditorium on Sunday morning for a panel discussion of the war. And to have taken part in the roar that swelled up from the audience, not when she was introduced, but when she appeared from behind the curtain to take her seat onstage. Tears me up to post about it.
What a sweet, unpretentious look on her face as she answered all that adoration with this shy little grin.
Every time i pass those "Fresh Express Chicken Caesar" bagged salads in the market, it cracks me up.
Pffft. That would require stones.
mena
that's a good idea. let's stone him.
[note to nsa: just a coultor-ism]
They really DO think it's all public relations.
plantsman
And they haven't caught on to the fact that propaganda is a "double or nothing" approach that only works if you can ultimately deliver the claimed result.
Fake photo-op military actions are counterproductive if in two more weeks it's going to be obvious that things are even more fucked up than they were before.
Bush's PR strategy has been "two weeks until election day" for the last five years. There's too much time left on the clock for this strategy to work. Some smoke and mirrors might distract the crowd from the naked emperor for a moment, but he's got three more years of being naked.
what is this shite spam about "Bono is Brian Peppers" link every damn thread?
I refuse to click through.
Bono is giving more to Africa out of his personal wealth and charitable foundation than our chimperor/treasury. Give the man a break eh.
So, uh, was there a baby born yesterday?
Yep. 4:52 p.m., 8 lbs, 4 oz., 20 inches.
BTW, anyone else see that interview with Wilkerson on Wolfie's show yesterday? Choice passage:
BLITZER:... Did the Bush administration deliberately mislead the American public on WMD?
WILKERSON: Wolf, there's no question in my mind now after looking back at is as an academic, doing research over this last year or two, and my time in the State Department, there's no doubt in my mind that certain members of the Bush administration did in fact politicize the intelligence, did cherry-pick the intelligence..
BLITZER: Who?
WILKERSON: I would put at the top of that list Under Secretary of Defense for Policy Douglas Feith, in the Pentagon, who was more or less the planner, if you will, if you can use that term, for post- invasion Iraq.
BLITZER: And so what about Rumsfeld, who was his boss, Wolfowitz, who was his boss? What about them?
WILKERSON: Paul Wolfowitz as deputy secretary of defense probably -- probably did not do all that he could to make sure that the intelligence picture was as the intelligence community was rendering it.
I'm not sure about Secretary Rumsfeld. I think Secretary Rumsfeld's major concern was with transformation of the armed forces. I don't think he was focused as much on war with Iraq as was the vice president's office and certain members of his own Pentagon.
Did Secretary Rumsfeld politicize the intelligence? Did he cherry pick from the intelligence? If his policy planning shopper, his policy shop in Douglas Feith's realm was cherry picking the intelligence and providing talking points for the secretary to speak, then the secretary of defense was also cherry picking.
that's a good idea. let's stone him.
[note to nsa: just a coultor-ism]
dirk gently,sociopathetic
everybody must get stoned
He seems to think a tube is a centrifuge. Is he really that stupid?
Who won the bet?
So, uh, was there a baby born yesterday?
Seconded!
I know I'm a mere NPC, but jeez, it's not like I don't care.
NPC? wassat?
nemmind, I just saw the response.
going to have some dinner now
so catch you all laters!
Watching Michael Gordon in interviews has been fascinating--reviews of the book have seemed to indicate his writing is much more forceful than his in-person appearances. He seems to still be coveirng, fluffing for BushCo.
Amazing.
Thanks for pointing out the Goodman interview--why isn't she on more programs? (yes, I know--she makes heads explode even more than Katrina VdenH--the punditry can't tolerate such clear thinking, well presented, well organized, factual presentations, ferchrissake.
She makes the case too damn well to be allowed wider audiences.
pie:
For starters, you don't invade a country whose fingerprints weren't all over those weapons to begin with.
yep, you don't call out the marines because you thought you saw a woodchuck.
Nuremburg, wars of aggression, Spandau, its all so 20th century.
Spandau, its all so 20th century.
secondharmonic |
spandau ballet?
Sean Patrick was born to NYMary & Thers yesterday 4:52
No newborn babyblogging up yet on Powerpop or Metacomments.
NPC - "non-player character", a roleplaying term for secondary characters not explictly run by any one player.
Amy's the best, fuck the rest!!
NPC - "non-player character", a roleplaying term for secondary characters not explictly run by any one player.
Pere Ubu
ahhhh - so we can send you into the cave first to see if it's safe?
NPC == non player character, D&D speak for someone run by the dungeon master, who is just there to help the party of adventurers but doesn't make any decisions.
Shorter Michael Gordon:
Everybody knew the aluminum tubes evidence was crap, but - on the other hand - everybody knew Hussein really did have a nuclear program, so it was all right....
Please add Gordon to the list of Whiny Ass Titty Babies.
Shorter Michael Gordon: Don't get mad at me because I decided not to use the common sense that God gave me. It's not my fault the Times ran contrary stories in the back of the A section to please the White House.
What a fucking wanker.
Please add Gordon to the list of Whiny Ass Titty Babies.
Shorter Michael Gordon: Don't get mad at me because I decided not to use the common sense that God gave me. It's not my fault the Times ran contrary stories in the back of the A section to please the White House.
What a fucking wanker.
Blak--she does her homework and is unfailingly courteous.
And how's my boy Dudley this a.m.?
you don't call out the marines because you thought you saw a woodchuck.
What if you saw a heffalump?
GORDON "I'm not calling, and I shouldn't be interpreted as calling on the United States to bomb, you know, TV technicians—some of my best friends are TV technicians; I don't care if they're American or Iraqi."
Probably a few negroes and Jews are his friends too. Gee I wonder what he'd say if for instance his wife left him for a TV technician?
Bomb the mother effer!?
.
Everybody knew the aluminum tubes evidence was crap, but - on the other hand - everybody knew Hussein really did have a nuclear program
and to think, they could have just asked me. i could have saved them billions of dollars, and all those people would still be alive.
and it's not like i'm the only one.
They were waiting for it to expire, and so the White House was very interested in striking at Saddam, what they would call a “decapitation strike” to kill Saddam and, they thought, end the war in one blow.
Would killing Saddam have prevented any part of the bloodshed or total breakdown of the country?
he saw that after 9/11, the threat of amorphous terrorism, with terrorists getting chemical, biological weapons and ultimately nuclear weapons without any national fingerprint on it. And how do you deal with something like that?
More well-trained, well-funded, Arabic-speaking covert agents on the ground in the Middle East. A foreign policy that promotes American democratic ideals rather than Carlyle Group get-rich-quick schemes. Rational port and border security. Emergency management agencies staffed with career professionals, not "Brownies." Better integration of local law enforcement with federal counterterrorism efforts. Fixing the shortcomings 9/11 exposed in our intelligence and law enforcement apparatus, rather than trying to whitewash them to make George Bush look like less of an idiot.
Just for starters.
ahhhh - so we can send you into the cave first to see if it's safe?
Yeah, but if I find any Artifacts of Power in there, according to the rules I'm within my rights to grab 'em for myself and kick the PC's asses.
Would killing Saddam have prevented any part of the bloodshed or total breakdown of the country?
pie
nope
but Junior would win the Dick swinging competion
I don't know if you understand how journalism works
The patronizing little fucker said that to Amy Goodman! the mind boggles.
And dave, I doubt she would allow any interviewees to tell her a topic is 'off limits'.
Would killing Saddam have prevented any part of the bloodshed or total breakdown of the country?
pie
of course! look how things turned around when we captured him and put him in ....
oh. never mind.
More well-trained, well-funded, Arabic-speaking covert agents on the ground in the Middle East. A foreign policy that promotes American democratic ideals rather than Carlyle Group get-rich-quick schemes. Rational port and border security. Emergency management agencies staffed with career professionals, not "Brownies." Better integration of local law enforcement with federal counterterrorism efforts. Fixing the shortcomings 9/11 exposed in our intelligence and law enforcement apparatus, rather than trying to whitewash them to make George Bush look like less of an idiot.
Just for starters.
Dr. Wu | 03.18.06 - 1:14 pm | #
But...but...we on the left don't have any ideas, we're just Bushhaters!
but Junior would win the Dick swinging competion
olexicon,Sir Humpty
i'd like to see dick swing.
[nsa: i have a wicked sense of humor.]
everybody knew Hussein really did have a nuclear program, so it was all right....
Android
Everybody at the newspaper which printed Chalabi's pillow-talk to Judy^3 as fact, anyway.
And how's my boy Dudley this a.m.?
Happily sleeping after a rousing game of "chase the laser".
Dudley blogging - coming soon
What an arrogant prick--"I don't know if you understand how journalism works..."
Amy & Juan did a fine job.
The Times major story dissecting the Al tubes actually was published October 3, 2004. It's bylined Barstow, Broad, and Gerth. Gordon must've been on to other projects by then. The the involvement of ISIS, David Albright, and the not-often-enough discussed Khadir Hamza (aka ``Saddam's Bombmaker''--a total fraud) needs much more elaboration. I agree with Gordon, ``It's complicated.'' Now I believe Albright to be basically very solid. But he spent a fair amount of time in the 90s running with the fraud Hamza out of ISIS, spreading all sorts of tales of Iraqi nukes, mostly false, but never properly contextualized with the Iraqgate scandal, Chalabi, and the forgery shop run by the Iraqi National Congress. Guess Gordon's high-level journalism skills didn't lead him into that crucial area.
I remember before the War Trent Lott being asked what if the aluminum tubes were not for making atomic weapons. Lott stiffened up and said sarcastically "puleeeze".
That was the Senate Majority leader's defense of what we now know and certainly had reason to believe back then was bullshit.
Who needs to defend evidence to start a "premptive war" against a non existent threat?.
.
Everybody at the newspaper which printed Chalabi's pillow-talk to Judy^3 as fact, anyway.
Dr. Wu
chalabi's going to be a guest on blitzer's show.
instead of in a jordanian prison.
there is no justice.
I doubt that Gordon is a Republican. He's probably a careerist in the mold of Chuck Todd and Ed (Bunky) Henry, who have worked (wormed?) their way from the bottom (Hot Line, The Hill) to the top of the slag heap--the godchildren of Barnes and Kondracke.
They only change from careerist to Republican after their annual income exceeds $500,000. What a great link, Atrios! Once again we learn that, if we are seeking something resembling the truth, we need to listen to Amy Goodman and read Knight-Ridder. The Gordon's of the world get all tingly when someone like Feith ("Just call me Doug. May I call you Mike?") give them, WOW!, an on-the-record interview.
I remember when Amy Goodman was on The Charlie Rose Show, long ago, just before and just after Iraq Invasion.
Rose tries to dominiate, but I had never seen so intensely defensive. He would barely allow Amy to answer a question; if she brought up how MCM covered Iraq, any issue, and dared to criticize it using FACTS, he would jump in, harangue her, filibuster. It was crazy, and I lost any respect I'd had for him--what a sycophant to the powerful!
Anyway, he closed by saying he'd like to have her on his show again--she smiled knowingly and said she would be glad to be on.
I don't think she's been asked back, but I may be wrong as I don't watch him as much anymore. Not worth my time, usually. It's MCM fluffing, powerful sucking most of the time.
I don't know if you understand how journalism works
The patronizing little fucker said that to Amy Goodman! the mind boggles.
And dave, I doubt she would allow any interviewees to tell her a topic is 'off limits'.
Karin,imbiber of Mulligatawny
I'm re-reading the interview carefully, having heard it yesterday. Gordon knows how journalism works: attach your lips firmly to the posterior of those in power, and never ease up sucking.
That much is perfectly clear from how he toes tne newly approved line that failure in Iraq as Rummy's fault. Note he never backs up Trainor that the "troika" did this. For him, it's all Rummy.
Good, but gloomy, collection of analysis of next 3 years for Iraq.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/...k/
KAR739871.htm
Amy Goodman will be appearing at a 10th anniversary event for Democracy Now! in New York tonight. Unfortunately limited tickets are only available at the door, and cost $25.
Apology-Amy was on Rose just before OR after invasion.
That much is perfectly clear from how he toes tne newly approved line that failure in Iraq as Rummy's fault.
I'm surprised Rummy's still walking around the Pentagon frankly. When will he offer his resignation...again?
This is one of the most defensive transcript exchanges I've ever read -- and given defensiveness and denial of journalists, pundits and pols these days, that's saying a lot.
Absolutely unbelievable -- and that line where he says to Amy that he doesn't know if she understands how journalism works! And she proceeds to give him a lesson in the real deal . . . the man's an incompetent. Just read something today about how the worst thing about incompetents is that tests show they're inable to evaluate their own incompetency -- Gordon: what a prime example is he!
Once again we learn that, if we are seeking something resembling the truth, we need to listen to Amy Goodman and read Knight-Ridder.
jmano, IMHO, this is the reason KR was broken up, forced into a sale by, iirc, Carlyle investors?
Here's my favorite part.
Goodman: For example, David Albright, who is the U.N. weapons inspector, and I am quoting from Michael Massing's letter to the editor, responding to your objection to his piece in the New York Review of Books. Albright writing that the Times’ September 13 story, which you also co-authored with Judith Miller, was heavily slanted to the C.I.A.'s position, and the views of the other side were trivialized. Albright says – and this is the man who contacted the Times. Let me just quote for our audience, this is Albright saying, “An administration official was quoted as saying that the best technical experts and nuclear scientists at laboratories like Oak Ridge supported the C.I.A. assessment. These inaccuracies made their way into the story, despite several discussions that I had with Miller on the day before the story appeared, some well into the night...
Gordon: Yeah. You're not well-informed on this issue, because – I don't have any, you know, criticism of you as an individual, but you're not very well informed on this, because if you were well-informed on this – I'm friends with David Albright. I think David Albright's an upstanding person who is doing very good work. I'm actually not Judy Miller, so I'm not the person he had the conversation with...
See Amy is the poorly-informed one, because Michael didn't have all the facts. If she understood how journalism works she would get that.
Amy Goodman is a journalist par excellence, of course, but:
Mr. Gordon: Listen, asshole, if I buy a new car from you, and the engine blows up after 250 miles, telling me I don't know how a car is made is not a fucking excuse.
"I'm surprised Rummy's still walking around the Pentagon frankly. When will he offer his resignation...again?"
pie
I think this is proof that the "shakeup" is never going to happen. The idiots doing the presidents work are going to keep screwing up unless they arrested for something. Good god, even Chalaby is still running loose.
Separated at birth: David Gordon and...???
Journalism 101 - stories should incorporate fairness, balance and accuracy.
The burden was on Michael Gordon to get to the truth by looking objectively at the administration's claims and reviewing their evidence, and interviewing credible sources that contradicted or disagreed with Bushco's assertions and presenting their evidence - not serving as a government stenographer from Tass circa 1971.
That he "couldn't be bothered" to do the latter speaks volumes.
Gordon and his co-author Gen. Trainer of their "Cobra" book (failure of US intel and miliatry planners in Iraq) were on Tim Russert last wk and he was powerful and articulate in providin glimpses of his book.
He was on Amy Goodman as part of his book tour and probably didn't expect
Amy would take him to task on his NYT aluminum tubes reporting with Judy Miller. Heard that interview on radio and Amy was logical, relentless, polite but firm. He was going all weaselly on her, whining like a child and accusing her of things. I could sense he got nervous, wanted to get off the interview and just tried to run out the clock with hemming and hawing.
Michael Gordon seems a tad defensive, wouldn't you say? There are so many different ways he could have responded to Amy Goodman's questions that wouldn't have left him squirming on the hook so long.
How about, I was wrong; I should have recognized the role politics was playing in determining intelligence judgments in the CIA at that time, and both Judy and I should have taken the concerns of Albright and others more seriously and included them in the article. Was that so hard?
I heard part and saw part (DISH gives you the video of Democracy Now on 2 on LinkTV and FSTV!). Goodman nailed him on failing to report on Bush lies in the fall of 2002 and all he could do is tell her she had a one track mind and suggest she didn't know anything about journalism. Gordon has to be one of smarmiest little pricks I've ever seen. Figures he'd be teamed with Judy. Who else would work with either one of them?
Gordon can cherry-pick information but Amy Goodman can't. Cock sucker.
SSquirrel makes an important point, one that I noticed too in the interview. He keeps referring to centriuges:
The C.I.A. came to the view, which we now know to be erroneous, that the centrifuges had been intercepted, that they believed they were intended only for nuclear purposes. They had – and remember, this is not a defector; this is not a photograph of something that's happening on the ground that we don't quite fully understand. They physically had these centrifuges. They had intercepted them in Jordan, taken them someplace to analyze.
But this is false, we did intercept centrifuges we intercepted tubes, tubes which have been proven to be used as rocket shells for artillery rockets. So he is either completely mistaken, or he is being dishonest. The original article quite clearly referred to tubes, as did the correction to that article. So I say he is dishonest. What rockets have ever used a centrifuge? We did not intercept completed centrifuges which would involve way more parts than just the tubes we got.
Just as the CIA and administration tried to put one over on everyone who doesn't have the technical expertise to know what it takes to make a bomb, Gordon is trying the same move to justify his actions. The correction to his article was something like 12,000 words. So he should be up to speed on exactly what is involved here.
Referring to intercepted centrifuges is straight up spin.
Why does he keep referring to the tubes as "centriguges" all the time, when this was exactly what was in question and has indeed found to be untrue?
Should read the thread before I post.
Gordon is also the go-to guy for stories leaked to him about alleged involvement of the german BND for US targetting, which is used by the Bush admin to rubbish the previous german admin and help the current.
I was in my car yesterday listening to the Goodman/Gordon interview. It was so riveting that when I reached my destination, I stayed in the car for 10 minutes so I could hear the end. Amy was splendid, not even responding to his insults, contempt, and arrogance, just letting him talk and talk and talk so that all the world could see him for what he is. This morning, I went online and printed the portion of the transcript dealing with the aluminum tubes -- or "centrifuges," as Gordon repeatedly called them -- and he comes across as bad in print as he did on the air. And then, before leaving the Democracy Now website, I made a $50 donation. And I will give Democracy Now more money when I can. We need more Goodmans, fewer Gordons.
Goodman/Gordon
My favorite line of Michael Gordon's self-defense:
"I'm actually not Judy Miller...."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It can't be emphasised strongly enough that this was never some kind of abstruse nukular syence. Quite simply, the second I heard that the cylinders in question were long, thin, and aluminium, I knew there was no way they were for gas centrifugation.
No responsible reporter who had taken the trouble to sit down with any of the dissenters and understand why the centrifuge scam was a clumsy lie, could have continued to treat it as a he-said-she-said issue. It just wasn't that complicated.
I'm shocked that a mainstream blog linked to Democracy Now. That's pretty insane. Who knew that Atrios was such a Chomsky/Goodman fan?
I mean, it is the best news program around, but that's no reason to go linking to it and all that. What will the Rethugs think?
All that time and effort spent trying to be respectable...sheesh.
And one more thing:
Clearly, Michael Gordon and Bernard Trainor have sourced their new tome with the same "unimpeachable" military planners, field commanders, aluminum tube salesmen, and the same administration sources who exaggerated, fabricated, fantasized, bungled, fucked up, and lied this country into the Iraq debacle in the first place.
Here's hoping that Gordon and Trainor's book will be remaindered sooner rather than later.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
derek said:
"It can't be emphasised strongly enough that this was never some kind of abstruse nukular syence. Quite simply, the second I heard that the cylinders in question were long, thin, and aluminium, I knew there was no way they were for gas centrifugation."
Derek,
The centrifuges used for enriching uranium are built using tubes that are long, thin and aluminum. Not the alloy in these tubes, not in the wall lhickness of these tubes, not to the tolerances that these tubes were made to, but none of that is detectable to an "eyeball inspection." As it turns out, a detailed inspection had been done and the busies were lying their heads off, but what made the lie plausible is that to the naked eye, these tubes looked like the sort of tubes used to build a gas centrifuge.
See:
http://www.atoomspionage.com/ira...ak/
centrfge.jpg
to get an idea of what a csacade of centrifuges look like.
API -
Thanx for the pic. I have been looking for one to get an idea fo what thousands of them togther would look like.
I thought Central Intelligence was supposed to collate and synthesize all the available facts. IF DOE says the Al tubes is BS, then BELIEVE THEM on that, OK? Since no one at the CIA is has ever isolated 235U yellowcake I am willing to bet!.
IIRC, DOE only got one vote on the committee that was looking into the tube issue. The CIA guy who most strongly supported the centrifuge claim was an engineer who had worked for DOE in the past.
So, the DOE was outvoted because others sided with the engineer instead of the weapons physicists. DOE went so far as to get an outside group of real experts to check the tubes. The group affirmed DOE's judgment.
Hate to say it, but in the part about the aluminum tubes, the interviewee also talks about "centrifuges" when in fact he probably means "aluminum tubes". AFAIK, what was intercepted were aluminum tubes (used for 57mm rockets or something). If they had indeed intercepted fully functional centrifuges, someone ought to get out the rod and tan the hide of the country selling such; uranium enrichment centrifuges are good for one thing only, and are hardly an item of common commerce. But, as I said, I think that they were far more "dual-purpose" (or simply unsuited for centrifuges period) than would be a real centrifuge built with aluminum tubing....
Small thing, but details count, and it hurts if you're not accurate; people tend to think you may not know as much as you do.
Cheers,
My god, that was good. Atrios' headline should have been
I.love.Amy.Goodman
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