I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
first?
These are the signs I put up today:
http://freewayblogger.blogspot.c...t-up-
today.html
took about four hours.
Imagine if there were more of us...
woooooohoooooo!
.
hello?
Thrid cause I like to spell it that way
UNE, how do you always manage to sniff out new threads? 
fresh thread w/a fresh sub sandwich...nice.
We weren't in Vietnam 12 years, we were in Vietnam 1 year 12 times.
We haven't been in Iraq 4 years. We've been in Iraq 3 months 19 times....
Oh this can't end well...
Uh Oh....
Vincent Price just made a mistake.
Oh well. Back to the House of Usher.
Jeebus. I try to engage DWD's concerns and this is what I get! A new thread!
Thanks Echidne!
Oh, great.
The Joshua person just told Anakin he's the chosen one.
We're screwed.
(Thank you echidne!)
Thanks Echidne!
This usually works to get Atrios to come home.
Tonight on a hard-hitting Fox investigative report, if the Jews didn't kill Christ, how did they get his Camaro?
[gritty, shaky footage of Mel Brooks yelling at moving paparazzi]: "He specifically said I could have it! Piss off!"
Only on Fox.
Having blamed the Romans for his crucifixion, the Jews wound up with all Jesus' best stuff: his Camaro, his video games (only X-Box; he was adamantly against other formats), his power ties, and his eight track collection. Jesus also had some killer porn, compiled in a massive leather-bound omnibus with the gold-stamped title THE MOST BEAUTIFUL WOMEN WHO HAVE EVER EXISTED OR WILL EVER EXIST EVER, but his mom threw it out.
The centerpiece of Jesus' baseball card collection, Babe Ruth suspended in carbonite in mid-drunken orgy with four Canadians, went to Spawn creator Todd MacFarlane.
Also surviving the Messiah was his iguana, Elvis, who was actually Elvis Pressley turned into an iguana.
Meanwhile, over on TNT, Tom Hanks is arguing with a volleyball.
Rorschach,
But I appreciate it. Truly. Do you see what I so poorly tried to articulate. Honestly, my son had me watch THE DEPARTED with him. Depressed me for days. If I HAD to write that, I would not write. Simple as that. Terrible story. Terrible people. Terrible action. Terrible ending. Disgusting. It is not a place where I want to put my creative energy to reach. Does this make me weird?
Eddie G is now getting into the meaty part of his role.
Peeps, peeps, too many peeps!
I give y'all...
HOT PEEP ON PEEP ACTION IN THE LIBRARY!
Thanks Echidne!
This usually works to get Atrios to come home.
Echidne of the snakes | Homepage | 04.07.07 - 11:46 pm | #
More's the pity.
Oh, wait, was that my outside voice? 
Don't eat the pink peeps.
The yellow ones...yeah!
Heh, ror.
"The Lord is Risen."
"That's nice, dear... it's time to pop him in the oven, then."
My peeps have been ripening for two weeks! I can't wait until tomorrow to start munching.
I don't eat the peeps.
Nasties.
Does this make me weird?
DWD - Dirty Fucking Hippy | Homepage | 04.07.07 - 11:47 pm | #
It certainly makes you not Hubert Selby, Jr, I'll tell you that!
Peeps look pretty disgusting to me. I never even noticed them before. Have they been around for a long time?
What I like are the kinds of chocolate rings which have wonderful diamond and ruby rings inside for kiddies.
For once in my life, I'm actually avoiding Peeps this year. I'm waiting until NEXT year when this year's fresh batch of green ones go back out on the shelves.
Mmmmm...stale and green.
ABC's promo commercials have been just horrid.
I am so glad my children are of the age they no longer require peeps.
Does this make me weird?
DWD - Dirty Fucking Hippy | Homepage | 04.07.07 - 11:47 pm | #
Nah, you're not weird...
I haven't seen it yet, but I'm curious. Was there any sense of sadness in the film, or did it seem to revel in its cruelty?
I meant chocolate eggs, not chocolate rings. Gah. I don't have any chocolate in the house and my thinking is foggy.
I'm convinced that peeps are the fossils of pygmy chickens. So, yes, they've been around for a while.
ABC showed The Ten Commandments tonight. I actually like the film a bit (I'm a sucker for a long running time), but the print ABC used looks like it's from an 1980's VHS copy. Ugh. They should update it and letterbox it...
Oh, no. McCain shows his true colors:
http://philadelphia.craigslist.o.../
308027576.html
The Cadbury creme eggs were the height of sickening indulgence, however, since they came out with bite-size versions in dozens, they're much easier to succumb to.
Bunnies
http://blog.miloco.com/wp-conten...04/
Bunnies1.jpg
Peeps havae been around for at least 53 years.
Phil Collins, Tony Banks, and Mike Rutherford keep singing to me that's...
It's no fun being an illegal alien...
But I do not like to eat peeps.
Jeb | 04.07.07 - 11:52 pm | #
For a guy who was a POW for so long, he sure likes war a lot...
The Cadbury creme eggs were the height of sickening indulgence, however, since they came out with bite-size versions in dozens, they're much easier to succumb to.
The most wonderful eggs ever are those German ones which have real egg shells filled with chocolate.
Peeps are disgustalicious. Mmmmm almost crunchy.
I had a bunny once. He was so cute. We had a cat at the time, and they really got along (they both came into the house at the same time...very important if you want pets to co-habitate without incident).
When the bunny (Thumper) had to go in for an operation, our cat (Jasper Jr.) slept on top of the cage until he came back. It was so cute...
Good tip for all you NOO-YAWKERS.
Melody Gardot
WHAT ELSE? We're heading up to New York this week for a show on Tuesday night at the Cutting Room. This fabulous venue is located at 19 W. 24th Street between Broadway and 6th. Tickets are $10. For more info call the venue at 212-691-1900. The show starts at 9:30 (Bar opens at 9PM). The neighborhood is Chelsea and there is a great italian restaurant right across the way called Ottimo if you're one to make dinner plans. Its a fabulous restaurant, highly recommended.
Melody Gardot is also highly recommended.
I had a bunny once.
We had two when I was little. In the summer they lived in the Wendy House and the female rabbit dug a tunnel of thirty feet or so. Under the rosebeds and all.
The little chocolate eggs wrapped in foil use to be really good. Then there were chocolate eggs dipped in some kind of thin candied shell with speckled coloring. Those were pretty good too.
Spike is showing a program on train wrecks, which was preceded by a show on big explosions.
Must make the wingnuts feel very religious.
I wish I liked jellybeans. They look so good.
Jesus ate peeps while riding on a dinosaur.
Today's top 5 searches on yahoo...
1.Global Warming
2.Boiling Eggs
3.Prom Dresses
4.How To Tie a Tie
5.Ghost Whisperer
spinoz-a-peeps | Homepage | 04.07.07 - 11:59 pm | #
I like Jesus, just hate those running his religion...
PBS is going to be showing "Rio Bravo" in a few minutes.
Monday night, PBS is going to run a documentary on Jonestown.
This post leaves me feeling oddly dithish.
spinoza,
It's an RTP.
LearningCurve has a posted a brilliant deconstruction of the Anatomy of a “Rove Talking Point”--And How to Respond on Kos.
This is a must read and pass on.
/cheers
/phill
They were served at the Last Supper. They're in all the paintings.
But I miss Elmer's Chocolate. Haven't seen it for years. A Nawlins thing.
I haven't had a Peep this year.
It's been like, Lent, or something.
It's been like, Lent, or something.
Not for very much longer!
this is how it works
you're young until you're not
you love until you dont
you try until you cant
You laugh until you cry
You cry until you laugh
And everyone must breathe
Until their dying breath
-Regina Spektor
I like Jesus, just hate those running his religion...
Janeane The Acerbic Goblin | 04.08.07 - 12:00 am | #
If you knew Jeebus like I know Jeebus...
Not for very much longer!
masculine_monica_nyc
Attended Easter Vigil tonight.
Far as I'm concerned, Lent's over, bay-bee!
I haven't seen it yet, but I'm curious. Was there any sense of sadness in the film, or did it seem to revel in its cruelty?
Janeane The Acerbic Goblin
My sense of the movie was that that Scorsese ENJOYED the violence and pointlessness of the movie. The melding of the lack of virtue of the opposing forces left one feeling empty. It is not a pleasant experience.
The essence of a story is in delineating the differences between the protagonist and antagonist. While melding the characters together and sharing some of the characteristics is not wrong - and may, indeed, be the sign of realism - in the end, there must be something that separates the good guys from the bad guys.
Without some sort of differentiation we are left adrift wondering what is the point.
While our expectations for a resolution may be unrealistic, it is also very human. Our need for resolution has actually been used very effectively to limit our consideration of topics that do not lend themselves to easily understood resolution.
Sports: which in the scheme of things are not very important are raised above all reason by the simple act of having an easily understood resolution.
Political considerations are not of this type. Global warming is not easily understood and the effects are not as easily understood as a sports contest. Because of this we do not like to deal with them.
( I will shut up, this could go on for a long time.)
snakes?
.
(Hands package of Peeps to RMJ)
Would you like a Balvenie with that?
this is how it works
you're young until you're not
you love until you dont
you try until you cant
You laugh until you cry
You cry until you laugh
And everyone must breathe
Until their dying breath
-Regina Spektor
melior
I been Phil Spector resurrected.
Is that the same thing?
(and I just discovered, somebody's tapped my phone!)
I had rabbit pot pie once, and it was surprisingly tasty.
snakes?
you called?
One more Hour....
So it shall be written - so it shall be done!
mer-
:peep:
No relation to Phil Spector that I know of, but the song is ridiculously catchy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B...h?
v=BSJQ1St1OnQ
Echidne, I don't know what your feelings about Easter are. But I do know you adore chocolate.
A vast collection of truffles, creams, and ganache are at the altar.
It is midnight. Lent is over.
Where's my steak?
Merci, Grandmere Poissoniere. I like Spring. Need to get exorcized soon in its honor, too.
My sense of the movie was that that Scorsese ENJOYED the violence and pointlessness of the movie. The melding of the lack of virtue of the opposing forces left one feeling empty. It is not a pleasant experience.
"The Departed"? Or "Gangs of New York"? Or any of Scorsese's films?
I liked "The Departed." For me, Scorsese has a very dark, very incarnational, very realistic, moral universe. What he portrayed (again, IMHO) was a world where those those who fight dragons too long, become dragons themselves.
It was hard to differentiate police from criminals, except they seemed to have little to do with the outside world. Except for a vague threat of terrorism (the stolen computer parts), all the activity revolved around, essentially, two gangs vying for supremacy, while the world went merrily on, almost oblivious to their struggle.
In the end, the bad guy died, but only by the illegal act (murder) of the "good guy." Very intersting ethic, there.
I could teach a whole course in graduate ethics just from that film.
My eight-five-year old mom is so funny. She told me today she couldn't decide whether to attend the 8:30 Easter service in the morning or the one at 10:30am (Spanish). Told me not to show up for lunch until at least 1 o'clock.
President Carter: Bush Ordered Me Not to Go to Damascus
... “I have known President Bashar al-Assad since he was a college student, and I thought it might be helpful if I went and urged him to support the peace process in the Middle East. But for the only time in my life as a former president, I was ordered by the White House not to go.”
It is midnight. Lent is over.
Bloody east-coaster. Still an hour to go here.
(Hands package of Peeps to RMJ)
Would you like a Balvenie with that?
Sallyh, Grandmere Poissonniere
I'll take the Balvenie and save the peeps for later, if you don't mind.
I could teach a whole course in graduate ethics just from that film.
Ursula le Guin's short story on Menolas? or something like that should be included, though.
DWD - Dirty Fucking Hippy | Homepage | 04.08.07 - 12:04 am | #
Good points. I would say ambiguity between the "good" and the "bad" is a good thing, because they are often quite hard to tell apart. However, when a film/TV show just seems enjoying rubbing it in your face (like a lot of films do, a sort of sadisticness), then that's when I get irritated. There's no art to it if it's just gratuitious. The movie Hostel was like that. There didn't seem to be any point to it other than to show gore.
I'm renting the film next week, so we'll see.
Here, an adorable kitten has fallen asleep on a keyboard.
It is midnight. Lent is over.
Not for us Left Coasters.
Speckled Chocolate Malted Eggs on the Food Network.
”I was ordered by the White House not to go.”
masculine_monica_nyc
Heh, let's see the Chimp try that one with Speaker Pelosi. His ears would be ringing for a week.
(Pours RMJ two fingers, neat)
The Departed was a remake of Internal Affairs, a Hong Kong film. Hong Kong films are very cynical and violent, much more so than American ones...
Not for us Left Coasters.
I did not intend to share my steak.
Ursula le Guin's short story on Menolas? or something like that should be included, though.
Echidne of the snakes | Homepage | 04.08.07 - 12:10 am | #
The One Who Walk Away from Omelas.
mer, I'm worshipping at the Church of St. Mattress tomorrow morning.
That's "Ones" not "One"
Thanks, ror.
Watched "The Asphalt Jungle" tonight. The movie suffer from a bit too much exposition, but really falls together for the lyrically elegiac ending.
Sam Jaffe is caught because he can't resist giving a teen girl nickels for the jukebox, watching her dance. That's just the delay allowing the cops to catch him. He's philosophical, stoical.
The final scene shows Sterling Hayden achieving his dream of returning to the horse farm where he grew up, a farm foreclosed upon in bad times. He promptly dies from a longstanding gunshot wound. Dying, he's surrounded by horses. How lyrical.
Then I thought "Wait a minute." Bresson, 20 years later used the same ending for "Au Hasard Balthazar," the title donkey, equally beleaguered, finding a peaceful death with sheep flocking to his comfort
Has anyone else made this connection?
You're welcome, echidne.
I love that story, and love teaching it. It's such a perfect embodiment of utopian thinking, and of the perfect as the "enemy" of the good (and vice versa).
Sallyh, me too. Although it is an eighty mile drive to my mom's, so I'll have to get up by mid-morning.
Ursula le Guin's short story on Menolas? or something like that should be included, though.
Echidne of the snakes
Omelas, you mean, mayhaps?
I teach that story almost every semester, in Freshman English. Love to point out the parallels between Omelas and Western society.
Draco | 04.08.07 - 12:14 am | #
The French loved film noir and Hollywood musicals...
They really appreciated old Hollywood, which is light years better than current Hollywood..
However, being a Bresson admirer (I love Balthazarr, I don't think he ripped off the ending. He was a highly original filmmaker, one of the greatest the world has ever produced...
Gratias, Madame la Poissoniere.
But now I must drink and run.
Omelas, you mean, mayhaps?
I teach that story almost every semester, in Freshman English. Love to point out the parallels between Omelas and Western society.
It is a wonderful story, because I see different lessons in it at different times. As ror said, it is about perfection vs. good enough and as you said it is about how the society is built on the backs of some and that is why we don't fix what we COULD fix, realistically. But sometimes it is also about the nasty underbelly of life and about the naivete of making simple ethical judgements.
Robert,
Certainly you have a valid point. I am only say, in my drug influence way, that in this instance I did not enjoy the film for the reasons I mentioned above.
As a person (and this might be just me) I need at least some differentiation between the good guys and bad guys. The lack of morality in both sides of this equation left me feeling empty and hopeless.
In the world that I perceive there are people who believe in a greater good. They do not always achieve this good, but they know when they have failed and feel badly about their own failures. The greater good may be an ideal, but it is known. In my world, even the lowest of the low understands that there is a good they should be doing. Even the worst of the worse understands that their own decadance and feels remorseful about their failure - admittedly, not that remorseful.
In this movie (and I assume, the book) remorse is and conscience is something that is never discussed or considered. A world without an ideal or remorse is a cold, heartless, and ultimately pointless world.
Where this striving for an ideal originates is really not very important. If it is internally brought about by the individual or imposed by some other force such as beliefs in some moral system or another is unimportant: its existence is important.
For without believing in something we become nothing more than animals rutting and killing wantonly as we wind our ways till death (or Republicans I guess)
As you enjoy this Easter Sunday with your respective faith, family and favorite chocolate bunny, take a moment to contemplate the demented words of the indicted former House Majority Leader Tom Delay on the day of his booking last year: "let people see Christ through me."
For the story, see:
"Happy Easter from Tom Delay."
To be honest, this is way deep for a simple math geek
DWD - Dirty Fucking Hippy | Homepage | 04.08.07 - 12:18 am | #
One may be cynical (in fact, we should), but that can quite often turn into a nihilistic tone to some things, when a person believes nothing is sacred, and doesn't believe in anything.
Haloscan done fucked me again.
I'd like to snuff it.
I did not realize that hens laid larger eggs as they aged.
The Bunny just showed up, with a basket for Monsieur.
The Bunny has informed me that there's a pair of noise cancelling headphones in his basket.
The Departed was a remake of Internal Affairs, a Hong Kong film--Janeane
Quentin T got a lot of flak for lifting the plot of Ringo Lam's "City on Fire" for "Reservoir Dogs." I thought QT improved on it
The original was a linear police drama. Imagine if in "Dogs" you knew from the start that Tim Rooth was an undercover cop. Imagine if you actually saw the heist mid-film, rather than the film switching from post- to pre-heist, no robbery seen.
QT added some real mystery, plus the eternal enigma "Who shot Nice Guy Eddie?"
The Bunny has informed me that there's a pair of noise cancelling headphones in his basket.
He'll never hear Bush again.
QT is a punk-ass chump.
FeralLiberal, he'd like that.
We'd all like that.
Ooh--Elvis Costello is on Austin City Limits. I'd given up on PBS for the evening, only checked back in desperation
One may be cynical (in fact, we should), but that can quite often turn into a nihilistic tone to some things, when a person believes nothing is sacred, and doesn't believe in anything.
Janeane The Acerbic Goblin | 04.08.07 - 12:21 am | #
Pessimistic, maybe. Cynical, never.
Janeane, speaking for myself, my family is sacred. My friends are, too. My work is pretty close to that.
Draco | 04.08.07 - 12:23 am | #
I didn't feel Dogs had much depth, but Q didn't really "rip off" the film. Sure, his film and City on Fire have a similar plot line, but aside from the "Mexican stand off" at the end (which looks almost the same as Q's version), the 2 films are vastly different. He gets flak for ripping off exploitation films quite a bit (especially in Kill Bill), but here the accusations against him are unjustified...
Whatever happened to Mr. Pink? I think Dogs is Q's best film...
Sallyh, Grandmere Poissonniere | 04.08.07 - 12:26 am | #
I hold art sacred. I know people need it more than ever now. Got me through a lot of lonely times...
Honestly, I don't even know what "sacred" means in this context.
Janeane--I'd never imply that Bresson swiped from Asphalt Jungle. He's just about my favorite director (personal pick, Lancelot du Lac)
I love him for the same reason Pauline Kael was suspicious: "Bresson was born old"
Janeane--"I don't care what you don't know. I'm gonna torture you anyway."
Alberto Gonzales has namestolen sallyh.
rorschach,in my context, it's that which is most deeply meaningful, holy if you will, that enhances my life and takes it well beyond what I would be without it.
"Alberto Gonzales has namestolen sallyh."
It was bound to happen.
Snow--he did? Shit, he really needs to get a life.
Praise Eostre, there's a Lindt bunny on the table!
Draco | 04.08.07 - 12:29 am | #
I never read that quote from Kael. Personally, I think it's right, and I would find it a compliment personally. I don't think Kael meant it as a compliment. I'm not a big fan of Kael's. I don't like what she said about Dirty Harry, Ryan's Daughter, or 2001.
Lancelot of the Lake (or du Lac) is a favorite, along with his last film, L'argent. A friend of mine actually worked on that one. I asked him what he remembered the most, and he said he remembered Robert driving around Paris "like a fucking nut" and looking at all the girls' skirts. Mind you, Bresson was 82 at the time.
Honestly, I don't even know what "sacred" means in this context.
rorschach
At base, set apart, kept pure, undefiled, not to be polluted by other things, or debased by admixture.
Along the lines of Plato's "good," which can only be made lesser by intermixing with what it is not.
From there, what do you consider "sacred," then, would be the question.
Hmm...
I can see what you mean, sallyh.
But "sacred" is just a concept that irks me, I suppose. I want to hold nothing sacred--this is not to imply a lack of respect or value... but still...
Sallyh, Grandmere Poissonniere | 04.08.07 - 12:29 am | #
Did Quentin give advice to the Bush administration?
Artists don't "swipe"; they allude. Very directly, sometimes . . .
.
Janeane, I doubt Bush could have understood 'Reservoir Dogs.' Which really wasn't a very complex film.
I rented The Brady Bunch Movie tonight. Once in a while, I have to find an antidote for all those serious art films...
At base, set apart, kept pure, undefiled, not to be polluted by other things, or debased by admixture.
Along the lines of Plato's "good," which can only be made lesser by intermixing with what it is not.
From there, what do you consider "sacred," then, would be the question.
Rmj, Weakly Holy | Homepage | 04.08.07 - 12:32 am | #
Yeah, I know all that, which is why I find the concept unappealing and deceitful at heart.
Sparkle Plenty, I must respectfully disagree.
Bad artists imitate; good ones steal.
I want to hold nothing sacred--this is not to imply a lack of respect or value... but still...
I would prefer people did not hold land sacred.
But "sacred" is just a concept that irks me, I suppose. I want to hold nothing sacred--this is not to imply a lack of respect or value... but still...
rorschach
Not to argue with you (I tend to feel the same way), but then you end up with Kierkegaard's "Concept of Irony." Where everything is questioned, even the question itself is eventually devoured (this was his very close, very complex, very nuanced, reading of Socrates).
Then what?
Snow, I agree my house is not sacred. But my home is.
Sparkle Plenty, I must respectfully disagree.
Bad artists imitate; good ones steal.
Sallyh, Grandmere Poissonniere | 04.08.07 - 12:34 am | #
William S. Burroughs, when he found a passage in a book that he liked, would write GETS in the margin.
Good Enough To Steal.
I wonder if "holding something sacred" isn't one of those concepts which don't lend themselves to purely intellectual argument. Or at least that we can't get all aspects of the concept by thinking about it intellectually.
Sallyh, Grandmere Poissonniere | 04.08.07 - 12:33 am | #
The "out of time" storytelling had been done better (Kubrick's The Killing, Leone's Once Upon a Time in America, and Eastwood's Bird, for example). Reservoir Dogs is best the first time you see it. Really hits you. Subsequent viewings, there's no depth to it at all. Mostly a visceral high...
My 20-year old ass was sacred.
My 40-something-year old ass...not so much.
Though thankfully, I would not yet go so far as to call it "profane".
Bad artists imitate; good ones steal.
Sallyh, Grandmere Poissonniere
[laughs because she can't figure out how to get the smilies to work]
Bad artists imitate; good ones steal.
Sallyh, Grandmere Poissonniere | 04.08.07 - 12:34 am | #
Picasso wrote that, but he didn't steal.
Janeane---Mr Pink's fate is ambiguous. Buscemi seems to be the sole survivor and escapes, but then you hear gunshots, presumably from the swarming cops. Is he hit? Typical QT touch. Roll credits
scarlet p.
I love you!
I would prefer people did not hold land sacred.
Snow, Propter Hoc
Especially the Administration.
Draco | 04.08.07 - 12:37 am | #
I know. I like that ending...
Night, all. Have a great evening.
Not to argue with you (I tend to feel the same way), but then you end up with Kierkegaard's "Concept of Irony." Where everything is questioned, even the question itself is eventually devoured (this was his very close, very complex, very nuanced, reading of Socrates).
Then what?
Rmj, Weakly Holy | Homepage | 04.08.07 - 12:35 am | #
If we are philosophizing outside of time, which Kierkegaard tends to do, then... nothing.
But we exist inside history and are bound by it, and so what happens is we move on and question other things that need questioning.
Picasso wrote that, but he didn't steal.
Janeane The Acerbic Goblin
T.S. Eliot and Harold Bloom both made careers in criticism off the idea. Eliot made a whole body of poetry from it.
I'm still not sure either one is right.
I wonder if "holding something sacred" isn't one of those concepts which don't lend themselves to purely intellectual argument. Or at least that we can't get all aspects of the concept by thinking about it intellectually.
It's sort of a "you know it when you're in it" kind of thing.
.
Ah, here we go: Kierkegaard's Concept of Irony (if you'll pardon the brevity and the typos).
Where everything is questioned, even the question itself is eventually devoured (this was his very close, very complex, very nuanced, reading of Socrates).
This is sophistry, reminiscent of Socrates' cheap rhetorical tricks which could only survive in a propaganda piece written by his admirers. The point of the question is quentioning: therefore, it is vindicated, not debased, with scrutiny. We can easily compare it to a person who wants ethics, equality and openness contesting a person who wants status and secrecy. The ethical one has nothing to lose from scrutiny and is only strengthened by it.
In fact if Kierkegaard weren't such a stupid jackoff he'd have grasped that the real defense of the sacred is appealling to true authority outside the reach of pedants -- you can't have an opinion about this because you haven't made space in yourself to comprehend it -- trumping their arguments however clever. Any idiot can sneeze at the Aurora Borealis; and it takes an idiot to do so. There is no sophistry that will trump its colors.
It's sort of a "you know it when you're in it" kind of thing.
Yes. Like the taste of a strawberry. It would be very hard to convey that flavor to someone who has never eaten strawberries, yet the taste is.
But we exist inside history and are bound by it, and so what happens is we move on and question other things that need questioning.
rorschach
Well, I disagree with your summation of S.K., but he was talking about Socrates.
The latter would have a field day with your statement, by the way. Recall what he did to poor Euthyphro and the concept of "piety," for example.
enelysion, do you have a clue as to what you're talking about?
enelysion--I can only assume you haven't read "The Concept of Irony."
Personally, I have Al Bundy as my spirit guide.
Picasso stole.
It's sort of a "you know it when you're in it" kind of thing.
Yes. Like the taste of a strawberry. It would be very hard to convey that flavor to someone who has never eaten strawberries, yet the taste is.
Echidne of the snakes | Homepage | 04.08.07 - 12:41 am | #
See, this is my problem/distinction.
The sacred is most often deployed in some manner meant to dictate behavior with regard to what is held "sacred."
What you are describing, echidne, is not in any way moral or ethical, but is rather an aesthetic sensation. The "sublime" I get and value and treasure, the "sacred," not so much.
Personally, I have Al Bundy as my spirit guide.
Jennifer
You could do worse.
Jennifer, you and Monsieur
Recall what he did to poor Euthyphro and the concept of "piety," for example.
Rmj, Weakly Holy | Homepage | 04.08.07 - 12:41 am |
The thing that binds us to Stone's smashing and burying of Socrates is the highly unlikely success rate of Socrates. Citizens of a culture built on rhetoric sit dumbly and confess wholesale slaughter, just like no one in real life ever would -- and meanwhile the author just happen to be the most admiring pupil of Scrates.
What you are describing, echidne, is not in any way moral or ethical, but is rather an aesthetic sensation. The "sublime" I get and value and treasure, the "sacred," not so much.
Yes, except what I was trying to describe isn't aesthetic. I'm not certain if it is a feeling as such or something combined with a feeling.
Well, I disagree with your summation of S.K., but he was talking about Socrates.
The latter would have a field day with your statement, by the way. Recall what he did to poor Euthyphro and the concept of "piety," for example.
Rmj, Weakly Holy | Homepage | 04.08.07 - 12:41 am | #
I was referring more to K's general body of work, which does take time into consideration, but history... not so much.
And perhaps he would "have a field day with my statement" as you say, but I have no idea why you say it, so I can't really say anything about that.
The sacred is most often deployed in some manner meant to dictate behavior with regard to what is held "sacred."
Granted. In my understanding, God is "sacred," which is to say "holy." But God's holiness does not depend on me, either in my thoughts or my deeds, in order to exist or to be preserved.
So I don't get upset by Sam Harris, or if Salman Rushdie writes "The Satanic Verses," or even by Bertrand Russell (who is a far better critic of religion than Harris could ever hope to be).
But, unfortunately, far too few people see "holiness" and "sacred" the way I do.
Good evening folks.
Yes. Like the taste of a strawberry. It would be very hard to convey that flavor to someone who has never eaten strawberries, yet the taste is.
Echidne of the snakes | Homepage | 04.08.07 - 12:41 am |
This is what we were trying to convey with the Aurora Borealis bit. Notice how RMJ is outflanked because of his timelessness: the objectionable thing about organized religion as Dr Rory has pointed up is precisely this unforgivable confusion of the truly sublime as in the orgasm and the perversely mundane stealing a bit of divine fire to buy tyranny another hour of terror.
How's this for sacred art? I can barely listen to Kirsty MacColl without crying for her untimely death, so alive was she. Here's from "Us Amazonians" It's got a souped-up mambo beat, in case you've not heard it. I can't think of a finer, more generous love song:
Here in the country we dance and we play
And we pray to our saints and we make love all day
I fell in love with a real city boy
Who's afraid of his nature, afraid of his joy
I punched him out and brought him to this hut
But I know he'll thank me when he wakes up
We got trees, we got snakes, we got acres of sky
His life in the city was making him cry
...
He'll learn to hunt and I'll teach him to fish
We'll boil up our rice in a satellite dish
We'll plant cassava wherever we can
Us Amazonians always get our man
Echidne, I'm not sure how accurately to describe why or what it is of my family and love I hold sacred. I only know that the principles which bind us together are, to my mind, inviolate.
4Legs, so nice to see you and the baby!
word games
Why is it important that GOPers portray Democrats as traitors? They are making extreme efforts to use the term "aid and comfort" when far less extreme language would more than suffice.
4Legs, so nice to see you and the baby!
She just woke up and is using me as a scratching post.
What you are describing, echidne, is not in any way moral or ethical, but is rather an aesthetic sensation. The "sublime" I get and value and treasure, the "sacred," not so much.
Yes, except what I was trying to describe isn't aesthetic. I'm not certain if it is a feeling as such or something combined with a feeling.
Echidne of the snakes | Homepage | 04.08.07 - 12:45 am | #
No? I'm just saying that the taste of a strawberry is ethically neutral, whereas the "sacred" tends to involve certain prescriptions regarding behavior.
"Something combined with a feeling" is a good way of putting it, I think. Anyway, it appeals to me.
The Romantics did a lot of work trying to work out some manner of ethics of the sublime... some of it good.
I was referring more to K's general body of work, which does take time into consideration, but history... not so much.
Well, I think S.K. is responding to Hegel, and it is Hegel, actually, who fails to take history into account (although it's his only subject). As S.K. once said, there was once a man who thought so hard about a system of thought which he claimed would explain all existence, that he awoke one morning to find he no longer existed!
I think S.K. and Sartre put us back into history (following in the line, for S.K., from Augustine, who made us both self-conscious and aware of time as we think of it today), and abstract philosophers like Hegel regarding history as a "thing" we could observe (like our own existence) when in fact it was what we were busy living in (until we woke up and found we weren't any longer).
But, no offense meant, in any case. Gotta go to bed, now. Sorry to pontificate and run.
Snow, Propter Hoc | Homepage | 04.08.07 - 12:47 am |
Well, at least they're flinging around accusations of real crimes, baseless as those are.
Why is it important that GOPers portray Democrats as traitors?
Because that way no one will listen to what we are saying.
Just another version of smear the messenger so no one will hear the messenger's message.
Such a wonderful discussion. I love the way these crop up in the late night threads. However, my head is nodding off.
I wish you all the most wonderfully sublime dreams tonight.
Bah. Philosophy.
4Legs, I'm more interested in kittens and babies. Call me shallow.
Hello again. Has anyone here seen the movie Monster? I just watched it. I didn't think i would because it just looked heartbreaking, and it was, but it was so good I had to see it through. Yes, okay, I'm not exactly on the bleeding edge of things.
there was once a man who thought so hard about a system of thought which he claimed would explain all existence, that he awoke one morning to find he no longer existed!
This is the kind of thing that is not even funny and turns people off philosophy and should. Marx, bitches.
Hmmm.
Guess I would define the "sacred" as that which inspires awe and wonder. For some it might be the view from a mountaintop, for others a fleeting moment in a church, blah blah. It goes beyond sublimity. And I wouldn't associate it with behavoir at all..."sacrosanct" is the term I would use for those applications, meaning off-limits due to the likelihood of causing offense.
This is what we were trying to convey with the Aurora Borealis bit. Notice how RMJ is outflanked because of his timelessness: the objectionable thing about organized religion as Dr Rory has pointed up is precisely this unforgivable confusion of the truly sublime as in the orgasm and the perversely mundane stealing a bit of divine fire to buy tyranny another hour of terror.
enelysion
Outflanked? Moi? By you?
It is to laugh.
"Dr. Rory" I don't know. Richard Rorty, I do know, however. As for "steasling a bit of fire to buy tyranny another hour of terror," I have no idea what you are talking about, but if you want to keep making straw men and playing with matches, don't let me stop you.
Granted. In my understanding, God is "sacred," which is to say "holy." But God's holiness does not depend on me, either in my thoughts or my deeds, in order to exist or to be preserved.
...
But, unfortunately, far too few people see "holiness" and "sacred" the way I do.
Rmj, Weakly Holy | Homepage | 04.08.07 - 12:46 am | #
Word, that. About the "unfortunately" part.
For me, your definition of the "sacred" or "holy" is precisely why I'm an atheist. If there's a God, and his/her/its holiness doesn't depend on me, then, well, good for him/her/it.
But it's just irrelevant to my life.
{{{Mena}}}
By HELENE COOPER and CARL HULSE
Published: April 7, 2007
Among those on the trip were two other California Democrats, Representatives Tom Lantos, a Holocaust survivor, and Henry A. Waxman, an advocate of Israel; as well as Representative Keith Ellison of Minnesota, a Democrat who is the first Muslim elected to Congress. During the interview, Ms. Pelosi said that while Congress was breaking with the president on Iraq, there was no distance between her delegation and the White House on support for Israel and on the need for Syria to stop supporting terrorist groups and allowing infiltration into Iraq.
Bah. Philosophy.
fourlegsgood kittenwhipped
No matter, never mind. I was just leaving.
In Syria, she said Mr. Waxman made a case-by-case appeal to Mr. Assad on the behalf of Syrian dissidents. She said they met for more than an hour with Mr. Assad and more than three hours with King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia.
Boy did I ever cone in with a non sequitur.
Hey Saalyh!! ♥
No? I'm just saying that the taste of a strawberry is ethically neutral, whereas the "sacred" tends to involve certain prescriptions regarding behavior.
No. Here Dr Rory is in the wrong. It is entirely possible -- in fact it is necessary -- for the sacred to exist outside of the secondary efforts of cynical hangers-on who want to use the sacred to make a lot of money. It is possible to distinguish the two even if RMJ didn't.
enelysion, you have no idea what you're talking about, and you really need to just shut the fuck up.
OK, this Starburst commercial just needs to die and be recycled and never, ever seen again.
Thank you for your kind attention.
Because that way no one will listen to what we are saying.
So simple it plum evaded me. Thanks.
mrs. ibrahim al-jafaari | 04.08.07 - 12:52 am |
This is a confirmation of Juan Cole's analysis, previously summarized by ourselves here: the really crazy Zionists have now upset the sensible Zionists, who permitted this rupture. It is the beginning of the end for Bush and the really silly Zionists. Even their own ideology is tired of them.
OK, this Starburst commercial just needs to die and be recycled and never, ever seen again.
Thank you for your kind attention.
Chris Tucker | Homepage | 04.08.07 - 12:54 am | #
Go back to your "housegirl."
Chris Tucker, true that. But the T Mobile commercial with the dad saying, "Maybe you should have uglier friends" is priceless
I've never argued with RMJ (have I?), respect him much. Joyous Easter to a beliiever who doesn't make me grind my teeth. Go to the park and shout a good sermon
Mena, care for some Chilean chardonnay?
4Legs, I'm more interested in kittens and babies. Call me shallow.
During my undergrad years I remember an art professor talking with another of the art gods, saying that what artists talk about at parties is....real estate.
(42) In our 'wars of religion,' violence has two ages. The one, already discussed above, appears 'contemporary,' in sync or in stop with the hypersophistical of military tele-technology - of 'digital' and cyberspaced culture. The other is a 'new archaic violence,' if one can put it that way. It counters the first and everything it represents. Revenge. Resorting, in fact, to the same resources of meditic power, it reverts (according to the return, the resource, the repristination and the law of internal and auto-immune reactivity we are trying to formalize here) as closely as possible to the body proper and to the premachinal living being, against the decorporalizing and expropriating machine by resorting - reverting - to bare hands, to the sexual organs or to primitive tools, often to weapons other than firearms (l'arme blanche'). What is referred to as 'killings' and 'atrocities' - words never used in 'clean' or 'proper' ways, where, precisely, the dead are no longer counted (guided or 'intelligent' missiles directed at entire cities, for instance) - is here supplanted by tortures, beheadings, and mutilations of all sorts. What is involved is always avowed vengeance, often declared as sexual revenge: rapes, mutilated genitals or severed hands, corpses exhibited, heads paraded, as not so long ago in France, impaled on the end of stakes (phallic processions of 'natural religions'). This is the case, for example, but it is only an example, in Algeria today, in the name of Islam, invoked by both belligerent parties, each in its own way. There are also symptoms of the body proper against an expropriatory and delocatalizing tele-technoscience, identified with the globability of the market, with military-capitalistic hegemony, with the globalatinization of the European democratic model, in its double form: secular and religious. Whence - another figure of double origin - the foreseeable alliance of the worst effects of fanaticism, dogmatism or irrationalist obscurantism with hypercritical acumen and incisive analysis of the hegemonies and the models of the adversary (globalatinization, religion that does not speak its name, ethnocentrism putting on, as always, a show of 'universalism,' market-driven science and technology, democratic rhetoric, 'humanitarian' strategy or 'keeping the peace' by means of peacekeeping forces, while never counting the dead of Rwanda, for instance, in the same manner as those of the United States or America or of Europe). This archaic and ostensibly more savage radicalization of 'religious' violence claims, in the name of 'religion,' to allow the living community to rediscover its roots, its place, its body and its idiom intact (unscathed, safe, pure, proper). It spreads death and unleashes self-destruction in a desperate (auto-immune) gesture that attacks the blood of its own body: as though thereby to eradicate uprootedness and reappropriate the sacredness of life safe and sound. Double root, double uprootedness, double er
Henry, maybe I like kittens and babies because they make me think of the future and all that is good in it.
Rmj, Weakly Holy | Homepage | 04.08.07 - 12:51 am |
One thing: real sacred, as in nature
Separate thing: phony sacred used to secure power
Arguing people are really arguing the conflation of the two, not the nature of the sacred. As a matter of definition the sacred cannot be the profane con-game of terrestrial power, which is what Dr Rory was bringing in and what you were dodging.
No. Here Dr Rory is in the wrong. It is entirely possible -- in fact it is necessary -- for the sacred to exist outside of the secondary efforts of cynical hangers-on who want to use the sacred to make a lot of money.
You misunderstand me. I'm not talking about "cynical hangers-on" at all.
I'm simply saying that to render something "sacred" is to assert that it is somehow separate from/above all other aspects of our real material existence.
Which is fetishization, by definition. It may serve a purpose. Of course it does. But I don't cotton to it, by gum.
"Men shall be ruled by law, not by other men"
Tell Dick Cheney that, Moses!
Rorschach, my sweet, I do consider the love I have for family and friends both intimately intertwined and a thing beyond what it is. It isn't just a feeling. It's an idea.
Apprentice to Darth Holden | 04.08.07 - 12:59 am | #
Anne Coulter will attack Cecil B. DeMille tomorrow, calling him a "commie, liberal, cut and run fag"...
DeMille was a Republican, for the record...
Which is fetishization, by definition.
In extremis, it is idolatry.
Yes, thank you Sallyh. Looks like an interesting discussion I walked in on, although I'm too tired to ask rorschach and all to re-explain. If you keep going I'll catch up. And if you get the chance do watch that movie. That SA actress was, well, heartbreakingly good.
Rorschach, and, if you will, an organizing principle.
During my undergrad years I remember an art professor talking with another of the art gods, saying that what artists talk about at parties is....real estate.
Henry Flower | 04.08.07 - 12:57 am | #
The last gathering of English lit type folks I attended involved a lot of drunken discussion of Law & Order and Battlestar Galactica.
So, there's that.
rorschach | Homepage | 04.08.07 - 12:58 am |
Ahh, you are quite right in that we misread, but in being right here, you are still wrong. If there is no sacred, or if it is to be squared with materialism (which like everything else is excellent for some things and not for everything), quantify and price fucking or rainstorms.
OK, get busy you Hebrew slaves! Make bricks without straw!
Henry, maybe I like kittens and babies because they make me think of the future and all that is good in it.
At this point, I think I'm just too tired to do anything but be.
I do love pictures of flg's Maddie. And I'm sure your Maddie is beautiful, too.
But God's holiness does not depend on me, either in my thoughts or my deeds, in order to exist or to be preserved.
I see this as sacred defined outside of human experience, rather than sacred defined by "agreement". Don't know if I buy into either one.
rorschach, at the last stats convention I attended, there were many drunken discussions revolving around "World of Warcraft" and "Dr. Who." Which is not an improvement over discussions at English conventions
mena--Monster is a fantastic movie.
Rorschach, my sweet, I do consider the love I have for family and friends both intimately intertwined and a thing beyond what it is. It isn't just a feeling. It's an idea.
Sallyh, Grandmere Poissonniere | 04.08.07 - 12:59 am | #
And, perhaps most importantly, a will?
Why can I no longer enjoy beer in the afternoon without a headache in the evening?
Nobody ever said life was fair.
The last gathering of English lit type folks I attended involved a lot of drunken discussion of Law & Order and Battlestar Galactica.
Perfectly understandable as both are examples of modern lit, with L&O being screamingly elitist propaganda and BSG being the closest thing Americans have to a conscience on TV. Other than Gina D's Kids Club and Miss Muffin.
During my undergrad years I remember an art professor talking with another of the art gods, saying that what artists talk about at parties is....real estate.
==
I can't remember who said that when bankers get together they talk about art, and when artists get together they talk about money, but he was right.
Rorschach, absolutely a will.
"There goes your deliverer! Now go find your straw, you mugs!"
Ahh, you are quite right in that we misread, but in being right here, you are still wrong. If there is no sacred, or if it is to be squared with materialism (which like everything else is excellent for some things and not for everything), quantify and price fucking or rainstorms.
enelysion | Homepage | 04.08.07 - 1:01 am | #
And you are still misreading.
If god is holy and nobody knows about his holiness then what's the point?
Ah, Nefertiri tosses herself at Moses, again.
Will this madness never end?
And you are still misreading.
rorschach | Homepage | 04.08.07 - 1:03 am |
No, we're not. It costs you nothing to concede that the sacred exists.
Apprentice to Darth Holden--Monsieur's take on Nefertiti: he'd hit it.
I can't remember who said that when bankers get together they talk about art, and when artists get together they talk about money, but he was right.
(Laughing uncontrollably)
People want what they don't have?
WE WILL FORCE YOU TO COTTON TO IT BY THE SAME GUM!
Buzz Bomb, switch to vodka
Rorschach, absolutely a will.
Sallyh, Grandmere Poissonniere | 04.08.07 - 1:03 am | #
I think we entirely agree on this. The "sacred" is a choice (individual or collective) to view some thing or one or idea as "outside and beyond" the prosaic.
It's all about this decision to separate this from that.
And it's not false, per se. Or maybe it is intrinsically false, which is why it is so necessary and so important...
(and I mean that, I'm not just playing word games.)
A drink to you all, if I may.
To the end of Lent.
I think it's pretty obvious what Moses' problem is.
He's teh ghey. There can be no other example.
I would NOT throw Nefertiri out of bed for eating crocodile crackers.
No, we're not. It costs you nothing to concede that the sacred exists.
Perhaps you'd like your head crushed.
People want what they don't have?
Henry Flower | 04.08.07 - 1:05 am |
W, telling a reporter what he and his father discuss on the latter's unsuccessful campaign for re-election: "Pussy."
People want what they don't have?
==
In a nutshell. Don't you?
The last gathering of English lit type folks I attended involved a lot of drunken discussion of Law & Order and Battlestar Galactica.
rorschach, at the last stats convention I attended, there were many drunken discussions revolving around "World of Warcraft" and "Dr. Who." Which is not an improvement over discussions at English conventions
and all of which is related to litty crit.
fetishism:
For the thing as well as for the worker in his relation to time, socialisation or the becoming-social passes by way of this spectralisation. The “phantasmagoria” that Marx is working here to describe, the one that is going to open up the question of fetishism and the religious, is the very element of this social and spectral becoming: at the same time, by the same token. While pursuing his optical analogy, Marx concedes that, in the same way, of course, the luminous impression left by a thing on the optic nerve also presents itself as objective form before the eye and outside of it, not as an excitation of the optic nerve itself But there, in visual perception, there is really (wirklick), he says, a light that goes from one thing, the external object, to another, the eye: “physical relation between physical things.” But the commodity-form and the relation of value between products of labour in which it presents itself have nothing to do either with its “physical nature” or with the “thingly (material) relations” (dingliche Beziehungen) that arise from it. “It is nothing but the definite social relation between men themselves which assumes here, for them, the fantastic form [dies phantasmagorische Form] of a relation between things” (p. 165), As we have just observed, this phantasmagoria of a commerce between market things, on the mercatus or the agora, when a piece of merchandise (merx) seems to enter into a relation, to converse, speak (agoreuein), and negotiate with another, corresponds at the same time to a naturalisation of the human socius, of labour objectified in things, and to a denaturing, a denaturalisation, and a dematerialisation of the thing become commodity, of the wooden table when it comes on stage as exchange-value and no longer as use-value. For commodities as Marx is going to point out, do not walk by themselves, they do not go to market on their own in order to meet other commodities. This commerce among things stems from the phantasmagoria. The autonomy lent to commodities corresponds to an anthropomorphic projection. The latter inspires the commodities, it breathes the spirit into them, a human spirit, the spirit of a speech and the spirit of a will.
I'd said before that PBS came to my TV rescue with an hour of Elvis Costello
Now they're showing a doc on the Jonestown mass suicide. Quite a choice for Easter morning
Back to the CD player...I'm thinking Meat Puppets
Buzz Bomb, switch to vodka
Sallyh, Grandmere Poissonniere
I'm a vodka and gin man usually. I asked the bartender today if anyone still drank rye whiskey, since I noticed some on the bottom shelf. He said it's making a comeback.
In a nutshell. Don't you?
you betcha.
a democratic, sane, president and a big ranch in new mexico.
i'd hit it.
Go up on a mountain, talk to a special effect who claims to be a deity, and it turns you into teh ghey.
People want what they don't have?
Henry Flower | 04.08.07 - 1:05 am |
W, telling a reporter what he and his father discuss on the latter's unsuccessful campaign for re-election: "Pussy."
enelysion
==
touche!
Henry Flowers, at stats conventions, it's mostly related to alcohol consumption
Henry Flowers, at stats conventions, it's mostly related to alcohol consumption
Teehee. Somehow I thought "symposium" was Greek for "drinking party."
A drink to you all, if I may.
Cheers!
No, we're not. It costs you nothing to concede that the sacred exists.
I never denied it.
Teehee. Somehow I thought "symposium" was Greek for "drinking party."
==
My beloved history prof, a tiny, middle-aged Filipina, used to hold a damn good "seminar".
the table we bought, a few weeks ago, has finally made it into our kitchen. two coats of stain, then poly, sprayed on, the surface glistens.
a hidden leaf folds out when the table is stretched. a nice finish to our kitchen project.
not that the table dances, or anything.
A drink to you all, if I may.
Cheers!
Henry Flower | 04.08.07 - 1:11 am | #
Let's drink to our legs!
/Jaws
sheets
Cheers!
Henry Flower
==
::clink!::
My beloved history prof, a tiny, middle-aged Filipina, used to hold a damn good "seminar".
Semitinis!
My experience of English Lit gatherings, not that anyone asked.
Popular topics: Shakespeare (my doing), idiot Froncophobes distorting the post-structuralists, rents (real estate being out of the question), our ineffective unions, and "How can we get tenured asshole [insert name] fired??
How can we get tenured asshole [insert name] fired??
This last is not limited to just Lit faculties ;D
Somehow, reading this thread and watching Robocop seems poor form.
Decisions.
A personal note on things Sacred. My feeling is if something is to be considered Sacred, it has to deserve it. Like many traditions and conventions, too many things are given reverence that are trite. I have run into situations in which something doesn't have meaning to me, but others are offended I do not give it that special regard. I think it is up to them to convince me that it should, not assume I would.
Draco | 04.08.07 - 1:14 am | #
I would have liked to think they would all recited Shakespeare, read Brideshead Revisited (and watch the miniseries), and talk about the majestic language of Yeats, Alfred Lord Tennis Ball, er, Tennyson, and TS Eliot...
Does anyone here own a home valued at more than a million dollars?
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