HULK SMASH!!!
Frist?
On to second.
Can I make it to third?
Homerun!
Atrios: ...That's how come I don't drive, see?
Otto: You don't even know how to drive.
Atrios: I don't want to know how. I don't want to learn. See? The more you drive, the less intelligent you are.
top ten!
And Rmj, stay the hell away from my car!
0 comments, my ass.
I pretty much agree with Atrios, although there's a major point being ignored by the Clintonistas: everybody in FL and MI thought the primaries wouldn't count, so untold thousands of would-be voters just stayed home! To allocate votes based on fake elections is just idiocy.
They should all be ashamed of what a mess the system is for the "club," but pulling votes out of thin air is ridiculous.
I'm with you - the rules should not be changed.
Hell, Michigan saw that Florida was going to be spanked a week before we moved our primary to January, and the fuckin' "leaders" went ahead and did it anyway.
They knew what they were getting into. They broke the rules. As the saying goes, if you choose to play, you must pay.
Tell that to the "vanguard".
Odd, that, A. This committee meeting is the ultimate in raw, revealed wholesale politics - not the sedate retail stuff that's been on display for the last year.
I think they should flip a coin. Tails, the delegates go to Denver, heads they stay home.
It's the only fair way.
I dont believe there are 10000 democrats in the country who will let Bush have his third term because HRC got snubbed.
then, I didnt think there were enough Nader voters in 2000 to matter.
But Nader voters were smart people, right?
everybody in FL and MI thought the primaries wouldn't count, so untold thousands of would-be voters just stayed home! To allocate votes based on fake elections is just idiocy.
Wordy word word.
Note to Obama:
Taking the moral high ground will only mean an ass kicking. There is no morality in this process today. It is a game. See: election 2000 Florida.
make Carl Levin and Bill Nelson wear dunce hats, and seat them in the corner.
The case for counting the votes from FL is far more compelling than that from MI, where not all candidates were even on the ballot. But the allocation of delegates is the important thing here.
everybody in FL and MI thought the primaries wouldn't count, so untold thousands of would-be voters just stayed home! To allocate votes based on fake elections is just idiocy.
But thousands more did cote. What about them?
Flip a damn coin already.
Since I signed up on the Obama page (all I wanted to do was help with Spanish speaking voters) I get a request to contribute cash every day.
It's getting kind of annoying.
Sorry, dood, but I have to disagree here - I think not seating delegations from two states based on a "rules is rules" dispute sets a really bad precedent.
I don't know what the "solution" is and I'm not endorsing one. I also understand the whole "primaries are not 'real' elections" thing. But I don't like the idea of leaving two states out of the ultimate nominating process because there was a big internal pissing match.
This is Paul Harvey. Gooooooooooooooo-DAY!
This committee meeting is the ultimate in raw, revealed wholesale politics - not the sedate retail stuff that's been on display for the last year.
Yep. I'm glued. I love this stuff. I still don't think the rules should be changed in mid-game or end-game, though.
Uh, vote.
Note to Obama:
Taking the moral high ground will only mean an ass kicking. There is no morality in this process today. It is a game. See: election 2000 Florida.
A-freakin-men.
actually, in Florida there was a major property tax ammendment on the ballot, so the election did count if you own real property.
Where's my flying car, dammit! And transporters! I want transporters NOW!
We look for things, things that make us go.
Atrios, Please, there is no tablet on which the primary rules are enscribed. This is politics. BO comes from Chicago politics. He can handle it. So can HRC.
Florida needs to be heard today.
As a political junkie, this is fascinating stuff. And it might help us move on into the general.
Instantly deadthreaded:
For the most part, I'm starting to think that the key to reaching the tipping point in public transportation will be devising a better, more intelligent, and more distributed network of smaller vehicles. Focusing immediately on massive infrastructure projects makes the activation energy too high and forces the up-front long-term commitment of resources in a way that may end up being suboptimal.
excluding fl and mi probably changed the outcome already as it is. knowing that is what is driving the muckety mucks, i think.
Why not have the SCOTUS decide this? We know they are impartial and are willing to interfere in places where they have no right.
Since I signed up on the Obama page (all I wanted to do was help with Spanish speaking voters) I get a request to contribute cash every day.
It's getting kind of annoying.
HoneyBearKellyGoGiants
But but but Obama is a brand new kind of politician!
Riiiiiight.
And it isn't really a public election the way, say, voting for your Congressman is an election. It's a contest whereby members of a club choose the leader of that club, who then goes on to participate in a real election.
Except for the fact the clubs have set it up so they are the only two clubs who can play.
Try getting on the ballot as a third-party candidate.
Which is still irrelevant to the point, but anyway, just sayin'.....
If you ask me (and you didn't), just seems like a dog and pony show they're putting on today.
An exercise in futility.
Atrios: I don't want to know how. I don't want to learn. See? The more you drive, the less intelligent you are.
cahuenga
*
er, WTF? I must have missed SomeThing.
the principled side of me says, "Play by the rules".
the practical side of me says, you gotta throw FL and MI a bone.
I'm conflicted. Then again, I'm a Libra; nothing new about that.
But thousands more did cote. What about them?
I voted. Uncommitted. Where's s/he today? Who's representing her/him?
This is golden. The Democrats are the masters of the circular firing squad, but it's usually not this blatant or broadcast live.
Prince is quite the short man...hence, the heels.
My Dad had lunch with him one day...
Zap Rowsdower | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 11:30 am | #
My friend, back in the days when he was at UMTC, saw prince in a club (pre-Purple Rain). said he was very, very short and couldn't hold his drink.
Alright, black Hillary supporter on CSpan, shut up now and take your place in the back of the Obama bus...
...that goes for the rest of you Hillary people too!
Odd, that, A. This committee meeting is the ultimate in raw, revealed wholesale politics - not the sedate retail stuff that's been on display for the last year.
Have I told you lately that I love you?
I think changing the rules midgame is not the way to do things
Totally agree. Lack of respect for the rules and the process is a slippery slope into the abyss, q.v. the Bush administration.
I voted. Uncommitted. Where's s/he today? Who's representing her/him?
Vicki, Who ♥ Al Gore
You can vote uncommitted? I didn't know that.
The Nation once was pushing for a None of the Above choice.
That woulda been cool.
look, in august there will be people from michigan and florida from the convention. but there's no right way to translate what happened in those contests into supporters of clinton and obama, so any compromise arrived at has nothing to do with the voters of michigan and florida, it's just about obama and clinton.
er, WTF? I must have missed SomeThing.
Nancy Willing
It's a movie quote.
It's my firm belief that Atrios is channeling Miller from the movie Repo Man
everybody in FL and MI thought the primaries wouldn't count, so untold thousands of would-be voters just stayed home! To allocate votes based on fake elections is just idiocy.
*
yup
I contend that it is cheating to pretend that there is no responsibility to the people in MI and FL who wanted an outcome that doesn't include a vote for Hillary.
Sorry for the blowhore, but a certain birthday boy is wearing sunglasses at night over at the homepage.
to me, the whole brouhaha over FL/MI throws into relief the utter and complete shameless hypocrisy of the Clinton campaign. is there any single electoral position during this primary they have not been on both sides of?
And my position on this issue is well-known. Shrugging off the residents of two states, telling them to suck it up, is just morally wrong.
Elias | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 11:40 am |
How long before your buddy Bugs takes over your shift at the McCain agitators club?
enjoy McBush's 'popularity' while you can, AH; this is as good as it's going to get for him. Once Hillary finally bows to the inevitable, Obama is going to turn his guns on McBush and wipe the floor with his ass.
Odd, that, A. This committee meeting is the ultimate in raw, revealed wholesale politics - not the sedate retail stuff that's been on display for the last year.
We prefer our elections decided by exit polls and TV cable channels.
Thenk yew.
If Florida and Michigan get totally seated, does that mean in 2012, everybody will say fuck it and we will have 50 primaries in October 2011?
That is my concern. The stripping totally is harsh. 50% penalty seems like a reasonable way to go.
This is golden. The Democrats are the masters of the circular firing squad, but it's usually not this blatant or broadcast live.
Thinking for oneself is a circular firing squad, squawk.
republics and lemmings: marching into the sea
look, in august there will be people from michigan and florida from the convention. but there's no right way to translate what happened in those contests into supporters of clinton and obama, so any compromise arrived at has nothing to do with the voters of michigan and florida, it's just about obama and clinton.
Prexactly.
We prefer our elections decided by exit polls and TV cable channels.
Thenk yew.
Rmj:
Don't forget the Supremes.
I agree w/ Atrios on this, also. And w/ John H. Farr.
And would add, if people feel they are disenfranchised, why would they want to vote at all? There are huge numbers of people who don't vote because they feel that the system is rigged and corrupt and their vote doesn't matter a hill of beans in this mumble mumble mumble.
I have always felt pretty much that way, never registered under a party because the Dems are too timid and not lefty enough for me. But I almost always vote. This year I have decided that I will register as an official (D). That way I will get to vote in primaries, at least. I am considering going to Ohio for GOTV, because I live in red-ass KY .
I sure like Arthenia Joyner.
Are there Hillary protesters outside the DNC meeting?
Are we going to see a picture of them with their faces identified, a la the congressional staffers that Repugs flew down to florida to shut down the recount?
OK, black Hillary supporter on Cspan, you've said enough. Sit down and take your place like Al Gore told you in 2000 on the floor of the US Congress...
...haven't you learned anything?
BTW, if you buy that boxed set of "Square Pegs" at Amazon, you can get a deal on the "Charles in Charge" set, too.
Just saying!
We have SUV, we are strong.
Damn.
I forgot it's all HRC's fault.
Charlie Crist and the GOP state lege had nothing to do with fucking with Florida's primary.
There's a certain attitude I'm seeing that democracy shouldn't matter if it doesn't support your candidate. Pretty distasteful, IMHO.
Sorry for the blowhore, but...
Don't EVER be sorry for a blowhore, dood. NEVER!
I would prefer some irrational number to the 50% rule.
Am I forgiving you for being a fucking asshole, or just accepting that you are an asshole and are unwilling to change Elias? I forget.
There's a certain attitude I'm seeing that democracy shouldn't matter if it doesn't support your candidate. Pretty distasteful, IMHO.
Molly Ivors
Blasphemer!
I'm listening to it and find it really interesting. There are the emotional appeals, the lawyerly arguments, the audience partisans and panel having to digest it all. I like seeing all these folks at the tops of their games.
.
There's a certain attitude I'm seeing that democracy shouldn't matter if it doesn't support your candidate.
You're an old white woman. What do YOU know about "rocking out"???
Don't forget the Supremes.
noblejoanie
That's the back up when the exit polls fail us.
We are Americans. We can't wait for election returns to be counted. Or even recounted.
The uncertainty would tear us apart. And if we can't get somewhere faster without a car than with a car, we'll never give up our cars!
We are smart! We make things go!
"we get a tan"-Huck and McCain supporters playing FL and MI protestors
It is pretty bizzarre that a bunch of Republicans got to decide to destroy Florida's primary. Whoever came up with that system was obviously naive about how dastardly a certain party would get.
Careful, HBK. You're being reasonable again. Can't have that.
Fine...account for HRC's votes.
Then what do you do with the "uncommitted" folks (40% in MI)?
Don't forget the Supremes.
"Stooooooooooooooned... love!"
McStain is hunting for a VP candidate who's shorter than he is.
Lotsa luck, John. Have you checked out the midget store?
There's a certain attitude I'm seeing that democracy shouldn't matter if it doesn't support your candidate. Pretty distasteful, IMHO.
Molly Ivors
Welcome to American politics.
Charlie Crist and the GOP state lege had nothing to do with fucking with Florida's primary.
you must mean the bill, authored by a Democrat, supported by 100% of the Democrats in the Florida legislature?
and the national party is supposed to authorize chumps like Karen Thurman and Steve Geller to continue to act like chumps why, exactly?
Shrugging off the residents of two states, telling them to suck it up, is just morally wrong.
I'll tell you what, I've totally lost respect for some people here who have told me to "get over it, you weren't disenfranchised."
Fuck them and their shallow opinions. Clearly, they don't understand the way in which our choices were subverted.
What do YOU know about "rocking out"???
(hangs head in shame)
It is pretty bizzarre that a bunch of Republicans got to decide to destroy Florida's primary.
republics outnumber Dems something like 2-1 in the FL state leg.
We have SCOTUS, we are strong.
Did I type blowwhore?
I really am senile...
Then what do you do with the "uncommitted" folks (40% in MI)?
Commitment ceremonies?
They'll do 'til the marriages are sanctioned, I guess...
Arm wrestling is the only way to settle this.
Fuck them and their shallow opinions. Clearly, they don't understand the way in which our choices were subverted.
I'm glad the party is recognizing it and at least trying to approximate a solution.
I really am senile...
I thought you were talking about the comedian...
Obama wasn't on the ballot in Michigan, right?
Can somebody please tell me how awarding delegates to anybody makes any kind of sense whatsoever?
Am I missing something?
Arm wrestling is the only way to settle this.
Man, I loved "Over The Top".
/meet me half waaaayyyyyy.....
There's a certain attitude I'm seeing that democracy shouldn't matter if it doesn't support your candidate.
Well, to be fair, your candidate does in fact suck.
If we're talking "fair" they should redo the primaries, which they're not going to do. Or, they should exclude all the current votes from FL and MI. Those are the two "fair" otpions.
Anything else is just a cheap flawed compromise that benefits one candidate over another.
In the end, I sincerely hope whatever they decide doesn't make a difference to the eventual outcome.
I really am senile...
Even the youngest fingers can make a typo.
steve,
Gardner Campbell is a wonderful person, BTW. Smart and funny and generous--we could have talked for hours,m though we only had about an hour and a half stolen from panels.
I would never claim that people in MI and FL weren't disenfranchised. I would just claim that they were irreprably disenfranchised, so that there is now no fair remedy.
"not a real election"? So I guess atrios wouldn't object if the super delegates just ignored the primaries altogether and picked whomever they liked. Or, if the party officials just handed over the nomination to whichever candidate came up with the biggest bribe. Hey it's just a club--they should be able to do what they want, right?
Arm wrestling is the only way to settle this.
NTodd, Pink Poseur
Fuck you! Flip a coin dammit!
Man, I loved "Over The Top".
/meet me half waaaayyyyyy.....
Zap Rowsdower | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 11:48 am | #
The "Citizen Kane" of competitive arm wrestling movies.
steve,
Gardner Campbell is a wonderful person, BTW. Smart and funny and generous--we could have talked for hours,m though we only had about an hour and a half stolen from panels.
Molly Ivors | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 11:49 am | #
I am delighted (although not surprised) to hear it.
Are we going to see a picture of them with their faces identified, a la the congressional staffers that Repugs flew down to florida to shut down the recount?
steve hüssein™ simels
*
some website gave the names and occupations of all those caught in the hall in protest but when I went to publish a post on it, my pc shut it self the fuck down... no lie.
whhhhhoooooooo oooooo, I did give up on the idea.
I'm glad the party is recognizing it and at least trying to approximate a solution.
Molly Ivors
But how can you approximate a solution if there was never a fair vote by the people?
Obama wasn't on the ballot in Michigan, right?
Correct. Hillary was on the ballot.
Florida is undoubtedly easier.
But the fact is if Obama had thrown support behind a revote it would have happened. He didn't, because he thought it wouldn't benefit him.
That's some pretty cold calculation, and it sucks.
Just my opinion, of course.
Arm wrestling is the only way to settle this.
NTodd, Pink Poseur
Fuck you! Flip a coin dammit!
Adam Hominem Not banned yet | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 11:50 a
what about dwarf tossing?
The "Citizen Kane" of competitive arm wrestling movies.
And if Kenny Loggins was composing music back in Orson's day, he would've written the music for that movie.
they should be able to do what they want, right?
Uh, well, yes -- since that's why super-delegates were created.
We have SUV, we are strong.
Your dick is inversely proportional to the size and weight of that SUV.
If you own an Esclade, a Hummvee, a Lincoln Navigator, a Armada, or one of the many other 5,000 lb plus SUVs: You are beyond gay, and have to sit down with a catheter and a microscope to find your dick to take a piss.
This is especially true if your SUV only is driven to the store and work, and has no rock chips in the paint or the underside.
Would someone please tell those loud, obnoxious Hillary supporters to be quiet because it's a foregone conclusion and they should just get over it already...
it's funny to me that Charlie Crist always gets dragged into this. the guys a total baby-faced thug, but he had 100 timesless to do with the changed primary date than the leader of the FL dem party, or the Dem leader of the state Senate.
what part of "Florida Democrats fucked themselves, again" do people fail to grasp?
I really am senile...
I thought you were just horny.
Maybe that's the same thing ...
I would never claim that people in MI and FL weren't disenfranchised. I would just claim that they were irreprably disenfranchised, so that there is now no fair remedy.
blerb
A revote would have worked, but na ga hah pen.
Most absurd thing I've read in a long time, from Charlie Gibson:
There was a very strong--you know, you go back to the Powell speech. There was a lot of skepticism raised about that.
I was there, Charlie, and no, there wasn't. There was near-100% universal praise of what looked to me and a lot of other DHFs like very, very thin evidence.
The "Citizen Kane" of competitive arm wrestling movies.
steve hüssein™ simels
*
I finally watched Citizen Kane the other day.
Fuck them and their shallow opinions. Clearly, they don't understand the way in which our choices were subverted.
Vicki, Who ♥ Al Gore
Having often found my choices in the primary reduced to two doofuses whom people in Iowa and New Hampshire apparently found "electable," and all other choices eliminated long before my state's primary: pardon me if I have no sympathies for the "disenfranchised" argument.
The whole system subverts choices; it's just a matter of what level it's done at.
what about dwarf tossing?
Some people juggle geese.
Florida is undoubtedly easier.
But the fact is if Obama had thrown support behind a revote it would have happened. He didn't, because he thought it wouldn't benefit him.
That's some pretty cold calculation, and it sucks.
Just my opinion, of course.
Molly Ivors
Yes, but you're not screaming it at the top of your lungs so we can't hear you.
We have small penis, we are not strong. 
I would just claim that they were irreprably disenfranchised, so that there is now no fair remedy.
I would agree with this.
But it counted this time, RMJ.
Of course, there are plenty of people pissed off that South Dakota and Montana still get to have a say.
if Obama had thrown support behind a revote it would have happened. He didn't, because he thought it wouldn't benefit him.
1) How do you know the first part?
2) Why would you expect a political candidate to petition for a midstream change in the rules that would result in a disadvantage to them? That's really asking a lot.
my pc shut it self the fuck down... no lie.
Jeabus folks go here and pick one of the top 100 linux distributions. Any would be more reliable than that broken windows crap.
http://distrowatch.com/?newsid=04911
Looks like Atrios is trying to herd us all into cities again ... Kansas cities ....
Just my opinion, of course.
Molly Ivors |
Taking back Eschaton, one comment at a time.
Thank you.
There was a very strong--you know, you go back to the Powell speech. There was a lot of skepticism raised about that.
I was there, Charlie, and no, there wasn't. There was near-100% universal praise of what looked to me and a lot of other DHFs like very, very thin evidence.
wtfwjd?
I heard that. They went on to excuse Powell for giving it. They said he knew at the time it was a pack of lies, when I heard at the time that he'd vetted all the data himself to be sure it was true.
So much BS, from so many people.
I would just claim that they were irreprably disenfranchised, so that there is now no fair remedy.
I would agree with this.
Vicki, Who ♥ Al Gore
A revote is the only fair remedy, but it's not on the table.
And I suppose you could argue that a re-vote would be unfair to the rules of the Dem party.
So I guess I agree too.
So what do we do?
how about a round of bowling, a round of Horse, and a round of dwarf tossing.
best 2 out of 3?
Perhaps fish slapping?
It isn't important that muckety mucks from Florida and Michigan get to go to the big party in Denver.
No, Atrios.
It doesn't matter if 2 of the most important electoral states get fucked over because these 2 states really aren't pertinent to the general election, because all that matters is who becomes the "leader of the club..."
blerb,
1)the negotiations were fairly public
2)because it would be fair and, uh, democratic?
Wacky, I know.
But the fact is if Obama had thrown support behind a revote it would have happened. He didn't, because he thought it wouldn't benefit him.
That's some pretty cold calculation, and it sucks.
Just my opinion, of course.
Molly Ivors |
*
I don't know...mebbe. There is all the other people in MI who might disagree with you.
Molly,
Your post today is simply wonderful.
Troll tossing
how about a round of bowling, a round of Horse, and a round of dwarf tossing.
best 2 out of 3?
Rock, Paper, Scissors is clearly the only solution.
Even a revote wouldn't be entirely fair, because the candidates who followed the rules and didn't campaign in the state would be at an unfair disagvantage against the candidate who didn't follow the rules and established a presence. You can't just launch a state campaign machine from zero.
Why would Sen. Clinton or Sen. Obama support a particular position on this, even if it might hurt them?
Principle.
Something I want to see just fucking once before I die.
I would agree with this.
~~~~~~~~~
I guess that's where you and I differ.
Disenfranchisement doesn't usually make me smile..
Why would Sen. Clinton or Sen. Obama support a particular position on this, even if it might hurt them?
Principle.
Something I want to see just fucking once before I die.
(stands and applauds)
because all that matters
I think one thing BHO and HRC supporters here agree on, with near unanimity, is that you are fucking Moron.
Moron Troll: a uniter not a divider.
There is all the other people in MI who might disagree with you.
Our state considered a revote, but the secretary of state said no go, too expensive.
There was a very strong--you know, you go back to the Powell speech. There was a lot of skepticism raised about that.
I was there, Charlie, and no, there wasn't. There was near-100% universal praise of what looked to me and a lot of other DHFs like very, very thin evidence.
wtfwjd? | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 11:52 am
I was in a graduate seminar that winter, and more than a few students were swayed by Powell, never mind that I tried to explain that Powell was full of shit, and that he wasn't really that great guy 'everyone' thought he was.
Anyone else think it's silly to argue for protecting IA and NH's right to act like groundhogs in the primaries?
Hillary and Obama should have a dance-off. That is the only fair way to decide this delegate thing.
Thanks, Hecate. That means a lot to me.
shite, the revote was an option but deemed 'unaffordable', no? Too bad we all didn't send pennies..
"Five Intellectually Bankrupt Supreme Court Justices" [Kathryn Jean Lopez]
Howard Dean seeks to unite his party by getting their anger up about a supposedly-stolen election. I half expect Al Gore to show up at the Wardman Park before day's end. Like Bill Clinton presiding over a Mideast summit handshake, Al Gore can cry as he watches Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama kiss.
And then President Obama can "heal" the nation by putting Hillary Clinton on the Supreme Court.
Dean was being polite. He shoulda called then Long Dong and his fourway.
As it is right now, the whole primary system is nuts. It takes too damn long, it's incredibly messy and confusing (I still don't know what a caucus is or how it works), and I've changed my mind about who I would vote for if the NY primary were held today.
There's no "fair" way to resolve today's problem because the underlying factors are impossible to reconcile.
But since it's clear who the nominee is going to be, I just want it to be over. Dragging this on until Denver makes the Dems look like idiots.
Principle.
Something I want to see just fucking once before I die.
OK, go to the front office and wait on that oak bench. You'll be seen soon enough.
But it counted this time, RMJ.
Of course, there are plenty of people pissed off that South Dakota and Montana still get to have a say.
Molly Ivors
First time in a long time. Nice, but as rare as a cool day in August.
And I think the people "pissed off" are, with all due respect, a figment of Hillary's imagination.
I got no problem with them voting and the vote maybe (it won't, let's get real) meaning something. It's Hillary's very ugly tactics I disagree with.
But anyway....
Rock, Paper, Scissors is clearly the only solution
the fact that you are so clearly in the tank for the Mining, Timber, and Cutting interests is really harshing my high, Molly.
The campaigns had more than enough money on hand to pay for a revote.
Anyone else think it's silly to argue for protecting IA and NH's right to act like groundhogs in the primaries?
Yes. People will argue about it until they are blue in the face, though.
Why did the chairman of the Fl. Dem party let himself get played?
Is the Arthur Murray franchise still around? With all the tapdancing media whores Gibson and Gregory are doing, they could give lessons. And Gregory could ask his buddy Karl Rove to lead the break dancing lessons.
Anyone else think it's silly to argue for protecting IA and NH's right to act like groundhogs in the primaries?
noblejoanie
*
some decent suggestions here today:
rotation of states and blocks of days for the vote over some month's time.
the fact that you are so clearly in the tank for the Mining, Timber, and Cutting interests is really harshing my high, Molly.
Actually, I'm in the can for the Dwarf Lobby.
Anyone else think it's silly to argue for protecting IA and NH's right to act like groundhogs in the primaries?
noblejoanie
Yup. Stupid and idiotic. I'm tired of NH and Iowa vetting the candidates and weeding 'em out.
2)because it would be fair and, uh, democratic?
Wacky, I know.
Molly Ivors
Are you suggesting that there is a snowball's chance in hell that Hillary, had the shoe been on the other foot, would have done that? I'm sorry, but I really think not. And I shoulkd add, as I just said in my last post, that it still isn't quite "fair and, um, Democratic" to make somebody who played the game by the rules from the start suffer a disadvantage for having done so. Democracy is every bit as much about the rule of law as it is about universal enfranchisement.
The campaigns had more than enough money on hand to pay for a revote.
Yes, I realize that, but there was resistance. Secretary of State is a Republican.
Thank you, Congressman Wexler. I'm sure the fact that you're an Obama supporter doesn't figure here...
Elections in the US are getter weird enough, that maybe we need some UN peace keepers with French and Belgium troops to keep things in order.
I don't know what she would have done, blerb. Neither do you.
I'm talking about putting principle before politics.
I agree with many that the Democrats need to fix their primary and caucus system. That said, however, it's too late to do anything here other than try to be fair, whatever that means.
Why did the chairman of the Fl. Dem party let himself get played?
because she is an idiot. and has been for quite some time. this isn't the first time she has been played for a fool.
As it is right now, the whole primary system is nuts. It takes too damn long, it's incredibly messy and confusing ...
Hooray! You nailed it, in my view.
Rot underneath means a cosmetic fix for the current problem does not bode well for the future of the "system."
The campaigns had more than enough money on hand to pay for a revote.
Molly Ivors
*
they refused to commit though, it isn't fair to put this on Obama alone, though I agree that his strategy prolly was in that it wasn't in his best interest.
just seems to me that the "rush" to be an "Early Calendar State" implies that some states are more equal than others within the context of the overall nominating process.
that's the 800lb gorilla here.
imo, it's decidedly un-democratic
the climbing over one another of the states is nonsense. That's what the DNC -- and the blindly ambitious competitive psyche -- need to address.
Thank you, Congressman Wexler. I'm sure the fact that you're an Obama supporter doesn't figure here...
Whoa. Get a grip. 2 Hillary supporters have already spoken.
Yes, I realize that, but there was resistance. Secretary of State is a Republican.
Elections should not be handled by members of a political party. Katherine Harris, anyone?
And Gregory could ask his buddy Karl Rove to lead the break dancing lessons.
cosmosis
Gregory did ask the occasional meaningful question, but never followed up. His 'hindsight' into his profession's performance in the runup to the war is laughable, though.
I wouldn't want to be in Dean's shoes. Trying to control the Party and to keep Florida and Michigan in the Dem camp.
Molly Ivors | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 11:57 am | #
I agree with Hecate.
Cong. Wexler does a nice job, and puts blame where it belongs -- Governor "Closet" Crist and the Republican hacks in the Fla. legislature.
A double-take photo from CNN's frontpage
One other suggestion for the primaries -- once you decide to run, you cannot withdraw your name from the ballot. You can stop campaigning, but your name remains.
Wexler's good people.
I'm really glad this is happening, no matter what the outcome. It can't happen ever again.
I can see both sides of this debate, actually.
It's wrong to not count votes and, no, this isn't just about who gets to be the leader of a club. The average voters in these states didn't "break the rules" and many of them wanted to vote so badly that they showed up to vote even after being told that their votes wouldn't count.
On the other hand, once the decision was made that these votes wouldn't count, I completely understand why Obama supporters would think it's not fair to go back and count them. I can't say that the outcomes in Florida and Michigan would have been the same if all voters had known that their votes would count.
I blame the Democratic leadership up to and including Howard Dean for letting this train wreck happen, especially in two such big important states. In Florida, at least, the Republicans punked us yet again. There was a time to fix this problem. It was before the votes were cast. Now, whatever happens, people are going to feel that their candidate got a raw deal.
50% sounds fair, like Solomon's baby decision.
Elections should not be handled by members of a political party. Katherine Harris, anyone?
Well, unless states stop making it an elected office, we're gonna continue to be in this mess...
A re-vote is not as easy as those of the hrc body wish.
Elections should not be handled by members of a political party.
Don't get me started....I fucking detest the partisan SoS here in MI. Terry Lynn Land.
caber penis tossing
Zap,
The Secretary of State shouldn't be in charge, that's all. Not as long as it's an elected position.
And people wonder why I hate parties...
Principle.
Something I want to see just fucking once before I die.
(stands and applauds)
Molly Ivors
*
yeah,!
I gotta scoot, have donned my old, holely Eraserhead teeshirt and out the door I go to paint some schools.
laterz batz
Elections should not be handled by members of a political party.
(jiggle jiggle)
from crimes of the heart, Babe says:
"I'm not a liberal. I'm a Democratic."
Why is a revote an HRC issue? It seems like Obama would want that legitimacy, too.
I blame the Democratic leadership up to and including Howard Dean for letting this train wreck happen, especially in two such big important states.
And in a fucking crucial election year.
.I'm talking about putting principle before politics.
Molly Ivors
And I guess I'm trying to convince you that you are not taking all the important principles into account in your reasoning. Mabe that's just my partisan bias talking, but it seems to me that I have pretty good case for what I am saying. Democracy, or at least the Republic flavor of it that we have, is about everybody getting to have a say in how the rules are made and then sticking to those rules until a mandate to change them is established through the appropriate procedures. Again I say, the rule of law is every bit as important as universal suffrage, and that when those two principles find themselves at odds, it is by no means a straightforward problem.
I blame the Democratic leadership up to and including Howard Dean for letting this train wreck happen
They thaought they were going to skate past it with an early decision. This down to the wire thing caught them by suprise.
To be fair, her pontoons were smaller when she gamed Florida....
I can't say that the outcomes in Florida and Michigan would have been the same if all voters had known that their votes would count.
My utterly unscientific guess was then and still is that Sen. Obama wold have won Michigan by a narrow margin had we held a a "normal" primary.
50% makes sense for Florida. It recognizes that both Obama and Clinton were on the ballot and penalizes Florida. It is also identical to the Republican decision, so it eliminates a Republican talking point in the fall.
Michigan is more complicated, and obviously a Soviet style election is meaningless, and the delegates should be split 50 50
Give me a fucking break.
Listen as Wexler sounds like the guy who steals your wallet and offers it back to you half-empty as an example of "concession?!!!"
What an example of a sickening pol twisting the truth to sell his position.
Political sausage making at its finest...
blerb,
Was I suggesting it was straightforward? I didn't mean to. But when the rules exclude that many people, yes, they need to be changed.
Molly:
I left a comment over at your column.
The Secretary of State shouldn't be in charge, that's all. Not as long as it's an elected position.
Agreed.
I just don't know what the answer is to all this mess. Conversely, I don't think that it will have long-term consequences (long-term = November).
Shit's gotta change, for sure.
Robert Wexler is very very smart, and if anyone can help Obama win Florida in November it is him.
leadership? there's leadership?
I am not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat--will rogers.
I can't say that the outcomes in Florida and Michigan would have been the same if all voters had known that their votes would count.
I can. They would not have been, at least not here in Michigan. I know of many people who would have voted but didn't, because the candidate they wanted to vote for wasn't on the ballot. And then there were people like my sister who voted for Romney because she knew her vote wouldn't count.
And I voted for the mystery candidate, Uncommitted.
Rmj, I agree with you on IA and NH. Let's get some states with large, diverse populations doing the vetting. TX, CA, NY come to mind immediately.
megisi,
That's my sense as well.
"Personally I think changing the rules midgame is not the way to do things,"
Agreed.
"And in a fucking crucial election year."
It makes me sick to my stomach actually. They had a chance to really make things clear and light when compared to the Repubs, but this has soured the picture.
If the votes in Michigan and Florida (why the fuck should this state ever be counted again is a mystery to me) must be counted why not do a Iraqi style purple finger election?
I want to work for Obama (especially in Spanish speaking communities where he can use some help) but denigrating HRC supporters is not the way to go.
Some Obama supporters feel they must insult HRC supporters. That's not the way.
Obama is going to need those votes.
They thought they were going to skate past it with an early decision. This down to the wire thing caught them by suprise.
Well, they have that in common with Sen. Clinton.
Je repete --
Obama wasn't on the ballot in Michigan.
How is it fair for Hillary to get all those delegates?
Some Obama supporters feel they must insult HRC supporters. That's not the way.
I love you.
what kind of democracy is this?
i would almost call it a democracy of the aristocracy
Some Obama supporters feel they must insult HRC supporters. That's not the way.
~~~~~~~~~~
Your point has legs.
4, in fact...
Elias:
I guess I see something different on my TV. It appears the Obama and Clinton campaign are in agreement. Obama will let the (meaningless) popular vote count. And there will be a 50% penalty across the board. Why criticize something the parties will agree to.
Obama is going to need those votes.
He is...but when you've got a small, vocal crowd on the intertubs yammering about how they'd rather vote for McCain than Obama, well....
Some people you just can't convince.
I blame the Democratic leadership up to and including Howard Dean for letting this train wreck happen, especially in two such big important states.
Thank you. I actually put Dean at the head of the line because he's the man in charge. He sat there with his thumb up his ass and yammered about rules.
I think Edwards would have had a strong showing in Michigan, had he been on the ballot.
Agree that any compromise arrived at today has nothing to do with the FL primary results from 1/29.
However, I'm not too sympathetic to the voters who stayed home and are now saying "What about us?". WTF? There's a constitutional amendment on the ballot and you can't be bothered to show up? About property taxes, one of the biggest issues in the state? Which affects property owners and renters alike?
Steve, I'd say that's hardly worth calling a primary.
Funny how nobody in the media seems to remember the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party & the problems with seating their delegates.
He is...but when you've got a small, vocal crowd on the intertubs yammering about how they'd rather vote for McCain than Obama, well....
Has anyone here said that? Ever?
Some Obama supporters feel they must insult HRC supporters. That's not the way.
Sadly, your bringing that up makes you an ass according to those same Obama supporters. You just don't understand how Hillary is Satan...
Has anyone here said that? Ever?
Not here, no.
Plenty of other places on the internet, though.
I think Edwards would have had a strong showing in Michigan, had he been on the ballot.
Yep.
The economy is going to outstrip the war as The Only Issue That Matters, and is already doing so, fast.
Like all things political, both campaigns probably did the calculations on which one a revote would favor given the rotation of primaries. As the revote would have happened about now, given the procedural technicalities that needed observing, a revote favored HRC.
Once again, it's politics, not beanbag.
Vicki, Edwards was my candidate of choice. I went to a meet and greet in Los Angeles for him--and there was almost no one from the media present. Huge turnout, too.
Did any of you ever play little league or sand lot baseball?
The Hillary team reminds me of those vocal, and obnoxious little twerps who'd argue every umpires' decision.
Well, Zap, I don't go to Taylor Marsh or Josh Marshall, for those very reasons. My life is stressful enough.
Has anyone here said that? Ever?
Molly Ivors | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 12:11 pm | #
Here's some:
http://answers.yahoo.com/
questio...16103744AA9dn3g
Funny how nobody in the media seems to remember the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party & the problems with seating their delegates.
Troutski, BTW
MOFO for short. I remember it well.
Rock, Paper, Scissors is clearly the only solution.
I propose a drink-off. Shots of Crown Royal!
/Kidding.
I'm afraid Mr. Wexler was not the best choice to speak to the Committee. Why he is so off-tone isn't entirely clear.
Has anyone here said that? Ever?
Other than trolls, I can't imagine. I don't support Obama (or Clinton, for that matter), but McCain isn't even a remote consideration. He's just around for laughs.
DISCLAIMER: I'm sure I'm not the typical eschaton commenter and don't pretend to be, but, on this issue? Mainstream.
Here's more:
If McCain vs. Obama, 28% of Clinton Backers Go for McCain
http://www.gallup.com/poll/10569...ers-
McCain.aspx
does anyone here know any HRC supporters who would not vote, if OB is the nominee?
Rock, Paper, Scissors is clearly the only solution.
Magic 8 Ball says drink off a better solution.
Bjorn--molly was talking about here, at atrios.
Vast majority of those folks said no, Bjorn.
Has anyone here said that? Ever?
Molly Ivors | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 12:11 pm | #
Here's some:
http://answers.yahoo.com/ questio...16103744AA9dn3g
Bjorn, nonkosherjewforO | 05.31.08 - 1
Yeah and there are Obama supporters, up to and including Michelle Obama, who have said that they won't vote for Clinton. This "your supporters aren't good Dems" is kind of silly.
Funny how nobody in the media seems to remember the Mississippi
Freedom Democratic Party & the problems with seating their
delegates.
Hah! I was just thinking of Mme Fannie Lou Hamer this morning!
Edwards was my candidate of choice.
Well, aside from the obvious person (who didn't jump in this year), he was my second choice, followed by Dodd and DK. Both Obama and Clinton were close to the bottom of my list.
Just goes to show you what I don't know, I guess.
"We didn't come all this way for no two seats, 'cause all of us is tired."
~Fannie Lou Hamer
To be fair, her pontoons were smaller when she gamed Florida....
Shut up! Shut up!!
(starts jumping up and down)
Did any of you ever play little league or sand lot baseball?
Umpired ... for many years.
I'm still scarred by the sweet old grandmotherly type who once yelled at me during a tournament game in NY, "Hey, pal, fuck you up the ass with a stick!"
I propose a drink-off. Shots of Crown Royal!
I imagine a scene in Nepal...
If McCain vs. Obama, 28% of Clinton Backers Go for McCain
Which really tell you something about the thought processes of that 28%.
Plenty of other places on the internet, though.
Zap
I'm very troubled by that as well. But remember, most of those people posted elsewhere and then migrated to more Hillary friendly sites cause they felt they were shouted down and disrespected at their "home" blogs. Several people who used to post here fit into that category. Hell, I've spent days cleaning my house instead of blogging cause it had become too uncomfortable.
You know what? Fuck it. Stick your fingers in your ears. Don't work for the Dems. What the fuck do I care?
peterboy,
Nope. Not one. We'll all support Obama.
does anyone here know any HRC supporters who would not vote, if OB is the nominee?
I live in Hillary land (PA), and am pretty politically active, and I cannot say that I know anyone who would NOT vote in the above scenario.
WASHINGTON, May 30 (Reuters) - Al Qaeda is essentially defeated in Iraq and Saudi Arabia and on the defensive throughout much of the world, CIA Director Michael Hayden said in a Washington Post interview published on Friday.
The upbeat assessment came less than a year after the CIA warned of new threats from a resurgent al Qaeda, the Post said.
LALALA, everything is all better; nevermind that we tell you one way or other to sway: if we need monies, we say there is a resurgent threat, if we need to win an election, we say things are peachy.
Does anybody here know anybody who is seriously thinking of voting for McCain if there primary fave doesn't get the nod?
I certainly don't....
I guess I see something different on my TV. It appears the Obama and Clinton campaign are in agreement. Obama will let the (meaningless) popular vote count. And there will be a 50% penalty across the board. Why criticize something the parties will agree to.
Demosthenes
~~~~~~~~~~
I think of Chomsky's warning, "The truth is observed, and not seen."
The bottom line, 2 states did not have primaries. Period. After all the bullshit, that's the truth. And nothing they can do or you can say will change that fact.
The only thing missing from this room is the cigar smoke...
...plus, there's a few more women and minorities.
This is making me puke. I'm going for a run...
Wiki sez it better than I ever could:
Many Civil Rights Movement activists felt betrayed by Johnson, Humphrey, and the liberal establishment. The movement had been promised that if they concentrated on voter registration rather than protests they would be supported by the Federal government and the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. Instead, at the decisive moment, black civil rights and justice itself had been sacrificed for the political interests of white politicians.
No, no one here has said that, I know we're all too smart. I agree its a good idea to get the hrc supporters on board, but I think getting a definitive solution here and "moving on" is key.
does anyone here know any HRC supporters who would not vote, if OB is the nominee?
peterboy
I don't think I know any Hillery supporters, but every single Obama supporter I know will march to the polls to vote for Hillery if somehow she got the nomination. Of course I only hang out with real Dems (and a few commies).
Hey! I've been voting against John McCain for like 20 years! Why would I do anything else now?
Was I suggesting it was straightforward? I didn't mean to.
Well, when you your argument for your position is "I'm talking about putting principle before politics" I cannot help but infer that you treat it as a postulate that yours is the principled position. If that were true, then the remedy would indedeed be pretty straightforward. But I am attacking that premise by pointing out to you that there are other principles at stake here than the ones you seem to hold in the highest regard.
But when the rules exclude that many people, yes, they need to be changed.
Molly Ivors
Indeed they do, but no in an ex post facto manner. That can never be fully fair, which is why we have an ex post fact clause in our constitution.
Whoever the Dem nominee ends up being, I'll be working my ass off to make sure that that person is in the White House in January.
Same with congress critters. Time to get a serious majority in the Senate.
WASHINGTON, May 30 (Reuters) - Al Qaeda is essentially defeated in Iraq and Saudi Arabia and on the defensive throughout much of the world, CIA Director Michael Hayden said in a Washington Post interview published on Friday.
The upbeat assessment came less than a year after the CIA warned of new threats from a resurgent al Qaeda, the Post said.
So now we can leave Iraq and grandpa can keep his shoes on at the airport, right!
Hey! I've been voting against John McCain for like 20 years! Why would I do anything else now?
My god, how I envy you ...
I know this isn't perfect as a solution, but has anyone ever suggested just taking a large poll of registered Democrats in FL and MI and splitting up the delegates accordingly? Super-delegates get to represent the margin of error. It's cheaper and less time consuming than a revote.
steve,
Nope, not that either.
The fact that people like me and ql and Hecate and noblejoanie and camelot are still here after the last five months should more than answer any questions about our loyalties and our desire for, uh, shall we say robust debate.
And I think we're more or less representative.
Woooo. Wexler just bitchslapped Ickes, but good.
...and I never said that anyone here said that they would vote for McCain over the Dem.
Silly Season™ is in high gear...
Fuck you you condescending, arrogant prick Wexler!!!!
How fair was Obama in his first fucking Chicago election, cocksucker!!!!!
Fucking hypocrite!
why do the warmongers 'need' 150 billion every year to fight this war? are we expending that much in bullets and tanks? cause the grunts aren't getting paid anymore than they were in peacetime, right? the army ain't bigger than in peacetime, right?
My mirror has a concept of fair reflection.
mogwai,
Private. Contractors.
Nice
"The military judge in the Omar Khadr trial in Guantanamo Bay has been relieved of his duties, a move that Mr. Khadr's defence counsel implied is a result of the judge siding with the defence on a number of evidence-disclosure issues in the controversial military tribunal case."
Anyways, I have to go into the fucking office on my day off.
Later.
Helena, I love watching a good bitchslapping in the morning.
World Cafe is on, featuring the B-52s. Still crazy after all these years.
Bye, Zap. *mwah!*
Why $150 billion to continue funding the occupation?
Halliburton!
Has anyone here said that? Ever?
Lambert Strether
Paul Lukusiak
quite a few commenters at Talk Left
and let's not even get started on the Dems who have claimed they will stay home rather than vote for Obama
My mirror has a concept of fair reflection.
Mine just says, god, you're ugly.
Here, mrs. I?
I don't think so. Except obvious trolls.
why do the warmongers 'need' 150 billion every year to fight this war? are we expending that much in bullets and tanks?
You don't expect us to build painrays, and missiles for nuttin do you?
MMM yeaahhhhhh Zap, it would be great if you just, mmmm, came to work on saturday. OKayyyyyyy???
Molly, I believe I owe you a beverage ...
I'd better quit lurkin and get workin. Time to out and whip the troops into shape. Catch you later.
Gromit, the B52s are fun
As a lifelong Democrat, I'm going to go running on Election Day rather than vote for Obama.
Has anyone here heard about what would happen to the 13 delegates Edwards won in the FL primary? Edwards endorsed Obama but his delegates are free to vote for anyone. Are the Edwards dels being discussed in this 50% compromise?
sallyh,
Mine says "hey didn't you used to be cute?"
Elias,
Weren't you going to go for a run? Maybe in traffic?
the fucking office
We'd get into big trouble for that, where I work.
al queda defeated in Iraq--so we gotta stay.
al queda on the march in Iraq--so we gotta stay.
cia director hayden.
hmmmmmmmmmm
Mr. Wexler needs to be taken aside and have the nature of politics explained to him.
And...
From the DNC Rulebook:
Clause 13.A. - Fair Reflection of Presidential Preferences
"Delegates shall be allocated in a fashion that fairly reflects the expressed presidential preference or uncommitted status of the primary voters or, if there is no binding primary, the convention and/or caucus participants."
why do the warmongers 'need' 150 billion every year to fight this war? are we expending that much in bullets and tanks?
Fuel, munitions, construction, pay personnel, etc. It's pretty fucking pricey.
How fair was Obama in his first fucking Chicago election, cocksucker!!!!!
Fucking hypocrite!
Elias
We've been over this before, sonny. Re-election campaign. And he played by the rules. Played tough, but by the rules. And you're the one who supports Sen. Clinton precisely because she "will do anything to win."
Some Obama supporters feel they must insult HRC supporters. That's not the way.
Obama is going to need those votes.
HoneyBearKellyGoGiants | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 12:09 pm | #
Which is why getting past this mess and get our act together as a party, as quickly as possible, is really important.
Molly, and young.
This is making me puke. I'm going for a run...
well, if it's a long run I am pretty sure there are some short piers near the Ohio river.
What an example of a sickening pol twisting the truth to sell his position.
Political sausage making at its finest...
Elias | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 12:07 pm | #
Is that all you have is your moronic whining?
You grow more useless every day, and you stated at entirely useless. What a wanker.
Remember the Old American Bandstand with its applause meter used to judge the winners? I'm sorry to see the RBC meeting devolve into this.
We'd get into big trouble for that, where I work.$
Ah, for the days of *So Fine*, when professors got busted having sex with students in their offices and everyone laughed it off.
These days, you can't even have sex with a colleague in your office! Not even if your grades are in!
As a lifelong Democrat, I'm going to go running on Election Day rather than vote for Obama.
Sufferin' Blessed Succotash
Come on. SCOTUS.
Cuyahoga!
I'm off to take down Christmas decorations.
Later.
Hey, you wimmen. You've been talking yourselves down lately. Cut it out, or I'll call you into the office.
As a lifelong Democrat, I'm going to go running on Election Day rather than vote for Obama.
Sufferin' Blessed Succotash
Then welcome to President McCain, and thanks in advance.
So now we can leave Iraq and grandpa can keep his shoes on at the airport, right!
I sort of snicker when I get to be barefooted in the airport, as the TSA guards and other passengers blanch at the sight of my gnarled old feet. (which work very well thank you)
Which is why getting past this mess and get our act together as a party, as quickly as possible, is really important.
Brøøklyn Girl,
Your assumption is that if we quickly dispose of HRC, her supporters will just as quickly get over it. I don't accept that assumption, respectfully. The process may have to play itself out.
I'm pretty sure Sufferin' was kidding, BG.
Molly, it's kind of sad--I can't close my office door if students are in it.
If they need to talk about something personal, we walk outside. Not always a great solution when you've got a student in tears over parental pressure, debt, ruined love affairs, etc.
The military judge in the Omar Khadr trial in Guantanamo Bay has been relieved of his duties
We don' need no steenkin' independent judiciary!
Here, mrs. I?
people who used to be regular commenters here have said it elsewhere, but whatever.
I just want it to be over so we can all get behind our candidate and not only beat McBush but win the Senate and take a bigger chunk of the House.
I love the Democraptic party. You clowns are all chaos all the time.
John McCain is going to politically rape you in November.
Fuck you Elias. Obama played by the rules. If that bothers you so much, it's just more evidence that you're a Republican troll.
Molly, ah, Sufferin was purely snarkolicious in that one, true
I just want it to be over so we can all get behind our candidate and not only beat McBush but win the Senate and take a bigger chunk of the House.
Then can you please stop insulting me and others, and tarring us with a brush we don't deserve?
Dragging this thing out much longer is the next worse thing to not voting in Nov.
pud | 05.31.08 - 12:28 pm |
Should have been here last night, punk. You were voted the stupidest troll on the Internets. Even King Juan Carlos I joined in.
I'm pretty sure Sufferin' was kidding, BG.
[addicted to dubious humor]
John McCain is going to politically rape you in November.
pud | 05.31.08 - 12:28 pm |
and he will be convicted, and never get near the White House. he will be pulverized and not even win his own state. He probably won't live through the campaign.
Oh, I miss King Leopold. He was a hoot.
Molly, it's kind of sad--I can't close my office door if students are in it.
If they need to talk about something personal, we walk outside. Not always a great solution when you've got a student in tears over parental pressure, debt, ruined love affairs, etc.
I had a big window installed in my office door for exactly that reason.
I'm with Joanie. Let's let it play. I think the convention's going to be fun.
Your assumption is that if we quickly dispose of HRC, her supporters will just as quickly get over it. I don't accept that assumption, respectfully. The process may have to play itself out.
noblejoanie | 05.31.08 - 12:27 pm | #
What process? She lost. She has no chance of changing the outcome.
And there aren't massive philosophical differences between them that need to "play out."
I'm not trying to "dispose" of anyone. I'm simply saying that HRC's supporters have to face reality.
Dragging this thing out much longer is the next worse thing to not voting in Nov.
Democracy, it's so messy. If things don't work out right away, we should get SCOTUS to settle it for us.
I just want it to be over so we can all get behind our candidate and not only beat McBush but win the Senate and take a bigger chunk of the House.
Then can you please stop insulting me and others, and tarring us with a brush we don't deserve?
Molly Ivors
Amen.
ronjazz,
We're looking at a blowout of Mondale proportions; I really believe that. And that will be true even if we let the process play out.
As a lifelong Democrat, I'm going to go running on Election Day rather than vote for Obama.
That's really fucking stupid.
Then can you please stop insulting me and others, and tarring us with a brush we don't deserve?
and I've insulted you how, exactly?
pud's going to disppear in November, never to be heard from again, as his GOPervert party is destroyed, and its ashes scattered.
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The White House is downplaying published reports of an estimated $50 billion to $60 billion price tag for a war with Iraq, saying it is "impossible" to estimate the cost at this time.
from Jan 2003...i ain't belaboring the point, but if that cost is to fly millions of sorties and run thousands of vehicles in an active war, why then is it 3 times the cost in a 'war' where the action is grunts walking or driving hummers? it can't all be gas and bullets.
and more...
In September, Daniels disputed an estimate by Bush economic adviser Larry Lindsey -- who has since left the White House -- that war with Iraq could cost $200 billion.
Daniels said he believes Lindsey's estimate was "the upper end of a hypothetical," Duffy said.
Congressional Democrats this past fall estimated the cost of a military attack against Iraq around $93 billion.
King Leopold. He was a hoot.
Yeah, that Congo Free State was a regular laff riot.
I just want it to be over so we can all get behind our candidate
A nice thought. But I'm afraid that I will not be 'getting behind' any candidate - or at least not in the sense that I take your comment. I will vote for the Democratic candidate, because I am a yellow dog Democrat. I am not 'backing' any candidate thus far presented, in any way other than as the least harmful individual available. However, since my vote is not mitigated by lack of enthusiasm, my lack of 'support' really won't make a particle of difference.
I'm with Joanie. Let's let it play. I think the convention's going to be fun.
Sallyh, Grandmere Poissonniere | 05.31.08 - 12:30 pm | #
We can't afford that this year. We need to be hard-nosed and focused well before the convention, and present a united front to the rest of the country.
Gromit, seeing as the CSU system is being squeezed to death by the state legislature, and I have trouble even getting new computers for the lab, I somehow doubt they'd spring for that. Too bad.
Luckily, my office is at the end of a cul-de-sac--it's pretty private.
King Leopold's snark is greatly missed.
What process? She lost. She has no chance of changing the outcome.
And there aren't massive philosophical differences between them that need to "play out."
I'm not trying to "dispose" of anyone. I'm simply saying that HRC's supporters have to face reality.
Brøøklyn Girl,
Until that vote is finally and irrevocably taken by the delegates and superdelegates, it's not over.
Those superdelegates who've switched to BO can switch back until they make a final formal commitment. Now do I think that will happen? Not likely, but it has to play out.
Dragging this thing out much longer is the next worse thing to not voting in Nov.
Democracy, it's so messy. If things don't work out right away, we should get SCOTUS to settle it for us.
Hecate, Runnymeade Conspirator
*cough*tolerance of ambiguity*cough*
What process? She lost. She has no chance of changing the outcome.
She has not, in fact, lost yet. And the way Convention works, she could actually still pick up superdelegates, sway them on the electability argument, etc. And there's plenty of time for the General campaign, which is why the goddamned Convention is in August and not next Wednesday.
pud | 05.31.08 - 12:28 pm |
If I gave you a time and place, would you agree to fight me?
Yeah, that Congo Free State was a regular laff riot.
He was a commenter here, and commented in character. Much like Ba'al, who I also miss.
We're in the middle of a retrograde Mercury. Lots of miscommunication going on.
pud | 05.31.08 - 12:28 pm |
Should have been here last night, punk. You were voted the stupidest troll on the Internets. Even King Juan Carlos I joined in.
DJ | 05.31.08 - 12:29 pm | #
when Stupid people vote, they vote for stupid things.
Hey! I've been voting against John McCain for like 20 years! Why would I do anything else now?
GWPDA, yclept Irate Historian | 05.31.08 - 12:19 pm |
To be contrary?
NTodd, Pink Poseur 05.31.08 - 12:31 pm
Jeez!
Did a sense of humor take a big drop while I was away?
ain't belaboring the point, but if that cost is to fly millions of sorties and run thousands of vehicles in an active war, why then is it 3 times the cost in a 'war' where the action is grunts walking or driving hummers? it can't all be gas and bullets.
Largely because the war has been privatized. For example, there are now as many civilians being paid by the pentagon as soldiers. And many are getting 5 or 6 times the pay of soldiers.
Hecate, maybe that's why Mlle and I can't communicate in any sort of productive fashion at this time.
I want to take a nap, but the Michigan argument is coming up, and I can't drag myself away from this.
I love watching democracy in action, even if MI leaders fucked up.
I think we should just draft Al Gore and Elizabeth Edwards to run as a ticket.
Then we can eat snacks without yelling at each other.
when Stupid people vote, they vote for stupid things.
pud | 05.31.08 - 12:33 pm | #
thus, GOP and Bush. well said.
We can't afford that this year. We need to be hard-nosed and focused well before the convention, and present a united front to the rest of the country.
I don't see why. Really, the winner will get a boost out of Convention, and 3 months is long enough for a General election.
when Stupid people vote, they vote for stupid things.
pud
So I assume you voted for George W. Bush twice. Assuming, of course, that you were able to operate the voting equipment.
I think we should just draft Al Gore and Elizabeth Edwards to run as a ticket.
Sufferin, I don't know, you made me laugh.
Granholm, I hope, won't piss me off today...
I think we should just draft Al Gore and Elizabeth Edwards to run as a ticket.
Vicki,
In my wildest fantasies, that's what happens at the convention!
and 3 months is long enough for a General election.
NTodd, Pink Poseur | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 12:34 pm | #
Especially against a loser like McStain.
Those superdelegates who've switched to BO can switch back until they make a final formal commitment. Now do I think that will happen? Not likely, but it has to play out.
noblejoanie | 05.31.08 - 12:32 pm | #
They won't switch back. Aside from the fact they have no reason to (because she hasn't given them one), that would make them look lie wishy-washy, indecisive, flip-floppers, which is the last thing we need.
Sufferin, I don't know, you made me laugh.
Aw shucks. It was nuthin'.
you claim I have insulted you, but won't explain what the insult is?
calling crazy talk from a vocal minority of HRC supporters on the web crazy talk?
whatever.
off to play with my kids, enough reading crazy talk about "the process"
Sallyh - did u see the LAT Daily Mirror blog this morning? So poignant... http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/...thedailymirror/
It's really light outside!
Then we can eat snacks without yelling at each other.
trifecta
And play scrabble.
Just so you guys know, Mark Brewer is a piece of shit. He needs to be tossed out on his ass. He's chair of MI Democratic Party.
OK, Vicki, you're at the plate...
"Democrats" meet in DC to sabotage democracy, disenfranchise Florida and Michigan...
Does anyone have racymind's email address?
Brewer's proposal is no surprise to me.
It's really light outside!
It's on account of that big thingie 93-million miles away.
doomed to repeat history?
http://www.needlenose.com/wp/200...i-not-napoleon/
Yeah, yeah, yeah...
Its more like 2 months between the convention and the GE, and the Olympics are in there.
BTW-We're under a tornado watch. Philly too. Weird.
It's on account of that big thingie 93-million miles away.
Yes! Such a thrill to see it.
They won't switch back. Aside from the fact they have no reason to (because she hasn't given them one), that would make them look lie wishy-washy, indecisive, flip-floppers, which is the last thing we need.
Brøøklyn Girl,
My crystal ball isn't as clear as yours, Brooklyn Girl. I'll grant you if I had to lay out money, I'd say you have the better odds, but we're talking probabilities here. If HRC doesn't pull out, it goes to the convention. And what happens in the interim happens. Three months is a lifetime in politics.
Much like Ba'al, who I also miss.
He was here the other day, worried about the safety of his inlaws in Szechuan
doomed to repeat history?
Philip II was a pretty smart dood, too smart for the Chimp analogy to work.
I suggest Francesco Crispi.
We're in the middle of a retrograde Mercury. Lots of miscommunication going on.
Hecate, Runnymeade Conspirator
Finally we are trying to communicate, though. The MIScommunication will turn to true communication and part of this community will not feel shouted down.
This is what Dems do that Repukes do not.
and I wish to God the Gore/Edwards ticket would happen!
Those superdelegates who've switched to BO can switch back until they make a final formal commitment. Now do I think that will happen? Not likely, but it has to play out.
noblejoanie | 05.31.08 - 12:32 pm | #
So only hrc people get to have their felling hurt?
when Stupid people vote, they vote for stupid things.
pud | 05.31.08 - 12:33 pm | #
Somebody who thinks its cool to name themeselves pud is calling other people stupid.
Amazing his brain generates enough energy to move his fingers to type that shit...
Weren't you going to go for a run? Maybe in traffic?
Hecate, Runnymeade Conspirator
~~~~~~~~~~~
I'd bust your balls but I have too much respect for antiquities...
I think racy earlier said her email was her nickname at gmail.
Hecate, it's racymind at gmail
when Stupid people vote, they vote for stupid things.
The results?
Nixon.
Reagan.
Bush I.
Bush II.
So only hrc people get to have their felling hurt?
Bjorn,
Not what I was saying, only that it's not over until the delegates and superdelegates say it's over. Or if one of the candidates drops out.
"Democrats" meet in DC to sabotage democracy, disenfranchise Florida and Michigan...
Lubyanka | 05.31.08 - 12:37 pm | #
Too late, Repukes did that on '00, destroyed American democracy, and their credibility at the same time. To be a Republican at this time is to be a traitor to your country.
Thanks, trifecta!
Lubyanka | 05.31.08 - 12:37 pm |
Hilarity ensues in today's episode of I Love Luby. In "Yardwork", Brian Hardig is flummoxed with his inability to operate a lawn mower. A disgusted Janet calls in a yard care service, and their attentive employees teach her a few unexpected things about "servicing."
Then nomination isn't decided until the final vote is cast during the final vote at the convention...
I'd bust your balls but I have too much respect for antiquities...
Elias | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 12:41 pm | #
and there's no doubt that she has bigger balls than you, loser idiot.
Oil trading probe may uncover manipulation
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Amid soaring oil prices that some say are caused by nothing more than rampant speculation, the government Thursday announced a wide ranging probe into oil price manipulation and said it would get more information on the effect investors are having on the market.
The measures, undertaken by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission after pressure from angry lawmakers, do two things
i am certain they will find nothing wrong in the free market handjob, after all they are saying that demand is strong even as saudi arabia has said they will not pump more due to a lack of demand..well what is the truth? the truth is that money is being DUMPED into commodities and the CFTC is a fucking joke
And, virgotex!
only hrc people get to have their felling hurt?
Of course. Deluded, naive, sexist cultists have no feelings to hurt.
Wow, you really are as stupid as they say...
Then nomination isn't decided until the final vote is cast during the final vote at the convention...
Elias
Absent a candidate dropping out, technically yes.
Holy crap, virgotex! We had a perfect tie in Pathwords!
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Amid soaring oil prices that some say are caused by nothing more than rampant speculation, the government Thursday announced a wide ranging probe into oil price manipulation and said it would get more information on the effect investors are having on the market.
More than a few BushMcCain "rangers" on that list.
I'm supporting Obama. I did support Clinton early in the process. So I'm voting for who ever is the Democratic nominee in the fall.
If this goes to the convention floor, it will not be good. JFK is the last nominee that has won after a convention fight.
In this modern media age, no nominee has won the Presidency after such a convention. The media coverage will hone in on any dispute and magnify it for ratings. It will further the image of a divided party.
We had a perfect tie in Pathwords!
Heh. My sister was whining last night that you're kicking her ass at that.
Molly I--you've got mail. (I understand the intertubes are slow to Liberal Mt or I wouldn't have taken up space here!)
I don't think the Saudis can or should pump much more. Looks like the dealers are helping us get off their stuff....
Army Col. Peter Brownback III, a judge who was hearing a war crimes case at Guantanamo Bay and “publicly expressed frustration with military prosecutors’ refusal to give evidence to the defense,” has been dismissed. Brownback had threatened to suspend the proceedings against Omar Khadr “unless prosecutors handed over Khadr’s medical and interrogation records since his July 2002 capture in Afghanistan.” Pentagon prosecutors have also rushed to schedule high-profile detainee trials during the height of the presidential campaign season.
What would America be without show trials?
It doesn't matter if a candidate drops out. There's still a vote to nominate a candidate.
Then nomination isn't decided until the final vote is cast during the final vote at the convention...
Elias | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 12:44 pm | #
This guy's a real idiot, isn't he? He sounds like one of my supporters.
soggy owls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
soggy owls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
soggy owls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
soggy owls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
soggy owls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yeah, weird, huh, Molly. You must be having a bad day - you usually beat me by a large margin
Nice try, Simels/whoever else you're being at the moment...
It will further the image of a divided party.
Lee Burl | 05.31.08 - 12:45 pm | #
so what? they're running against a destroyed, irrelevant, broke party, with a candidate that is vilified and hated by their own base.
I'd bust your balls but I have too much respect for antiquities...
Elias |
Hey, you are a real jerkoff, aren't you?
Vicki, this guy from MI should put you to sleep in no time.
Sheesh...
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Army Col. Peter Brownback III, a judge who was hearing a war crimes case at Guantanamo Bay and “publicly expressed frustration with military prosecutors’ refusal to give evidence to the defense,” has been dismissed.
One of those Magna Carta freaks who hates our freedom.
It doesn't matter if a candidate drops out. There's still a vote to nominate a candidate.
Elias | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 12:46 pm | #
I hope he's not one of mine. I have enough stupid to deal with trying to keep George away from me.
In this modern media age, no nominee has won the Presidency after such a convention. The media coverage will hone in on any dispute and magnify it for ratings. It will further the image of a divided party.
And when the party has selected a nominee and gets behind him (most likely), it will present a unified party. Because that's how it works: people argue, debate, try to push their agenda and in the end the party has a single nominee and platform.
Mumcat surveying teh property.... http://www.gwpda.org/stalk.jpg
And taking action.... http://www.gwpda.org/stalk3.jpg
Hey, you are a real jerkoff, aren't you?
~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm a Jerky Boy! Remember me?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z...h?
v=ZXWo6jXmRO8
Nice try, Simels/whoever else you're being at the moment...
Elias | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 12:47 pm | #
What the fuck are you talking about?
Seriously -- if I want to insult you, I'll do it to your face.
In this modern media age, no nominee has won the Presidency after such a convention. The media coverage will hone in on any dispute and magnify it for ratings. It will further the image of a divided party.
Lee Burl | 05.31.08 - 12:45 pm | #
And the media are much more right wing and much less independent than they were in the 1960s.
They will feed on the indecision, and give the Republicans more talking points, which will not only hurt the presidential candidate, it also might hurt the regional candidates by painting them as members of a party in disarray.
This is war, and we need a united front. The convention should focus on the issues, not on infighting, which will only make us look weak, petty and fragmented.
The bottom line is: Obama is our candidate. He can only look like a leader if we support him, and do it wholeheartedly.
try to push their agenda and in the end the party has a single nominee and platform.
NTodd, Pink Poseur | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 12:50 pm | #
What distinguishes Clinton's agenda from Obama's? What substantive debate exists there?
It isn't important that muckety mucks from Florida and Michigan get to go to the big party in Denver.
--------------------------
Well, it is to the voters in those states.
Correct me if I am wrong, and I know you will:
1. The Democratic Party decided, for whatever reason, that primaries were supposed to start on or after some point. Everyone knew this. Everyone knew that whoever "broke" the rules were going to suffer the consequences(i.e., their votes would not be counted).
2. Two states, knowing the rules. decided to become vanguards in deciding who would be the candidate, and willfully broke the rules.
3. We're now trying to decide who of the two remaining candidates is disenfranchising voters.
Answer: Neither. The people who disenfranchised the voters were the people in both Florida and Michigan who decided to have their primaries knowingly against the agreed upon rules.
Don't blame either candidate for this.
Now we have one candidate deciding that disenfranchisement is the important point, when everyone, except the powers that be in Florida and Michigan, agreed to the original rules--the supposed disenfranchisement of voters. That horse is already long ago out of the barn and is neither candidate's fault.
Rules is rules, folks. Everyone agreed to them. Put the disenfranchisement blame on the folks who deserve it: the Democratic powers that be in Florida and Michigan.
"The only real issue is if what's decided today impacts the ultimate outcome - who becomes the leader of the club - and whether that's seen as legitimate by both sides. Personally I think changing the rules midgame is not the way to do things, though if it doesn't impact the outcome it doesn't really matter, but I guess some people differ on that."
This is just wrong. You don't care and so won't find out why. Fine. Don't pretend to have a say so then. You are wrong. There are issues at stake that are important to others. You seek to invalidate them. You are wrong.
"Rules is rules, folks. Everyone agreed to them."
This a myth. It's more complicated than that. But one would have to be paying attention and actually care to know that. If self governance is just to messy may I suggest voting Republican.
ok i'm late to thread as usual but goddamnit will someone please acknowledge the millions of us who really loved the idea of Hilary Clinton as our president?
we are not fools, we are not apartchicks,we just believe in her, despite the repub noise machine
i like Obama enough to vote for him but it hurts so much to see progressive people disrespect her so bad - using conservative movement talking points no less! I used to tell everyone I know how awesome the blogs are but you have lost me the way that the msm lost me years ago. Atrios less than most, until recently but still ...
you need to deal with the fact that she is beloved by many ... disrespect her at your peril
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