HULK SMASHED
Frist?
On to second.
Can I make it to third?
Homerun!
Atrios: ...That's how come I don't drive, see?
Otto: You don't even know how to drive.
Atrios: I don't want to know how. I don't want to learn. See? The more you drive, the less intelligent you are.
top ten!
And Rmj, stay the hell away from my car!
0 comments, my ass.
I pretty much agree with Atrios, although there's a major point being ignored by the Clintonistas: everybody in FL and MI thought the primaries wouldn't count, so untold thousands of would-be voters just stayed home! To allocate votes based on fake elections is just idiocy.
They should all be ashamed of what a mess the system is for the "club," but pulling votes out of thin air is ridiculous.
I'm with you - the rules should not be changed.
Hell, Michigan saw that Florida was going to be spanked a week before we moved our primary to January, and the fuckin' "leaders" went ahead and did it anyway.
They knew what they were getting into. They broke the rules. As the saying goes, if you choose to play, you must pay.
Tell that to the "vanguard".
Odd, that, A. This committee meeting is the ultimate in raw, revealed wholesale politics - not the sedate retail stuff that's been on display for the last year.
I think they should flip a coin. Tails, the delegates go to Denver, heads they stay home.
It's the only fair way.
I dont believe there are 10000 democrats in the country who will let Bush have his third term because HRC got snubbed.
then, I didnt think there were enough Nader voters in 2000 to matter.
But Nader voters were smart people, right?
everybody in FL and MI thought the primaries wouldn't count, so untold thousands of would-be voters just stayed home! To allocate votes based on fake elections is just idiocy.
Wordy word word.
Note to Obama:
Taking the moral high ground will only mean an ass kicking. There is no morality in this process today. It is a game. See: election 2000 Florida.
make Carl Levin and Bill Nelson wear dunce hats, and seat them in the corner.
The case for counting the votes from FL is far more compelling than that from MI, where not all candidates were even on the ballot. But the allocation of delegates is the important thing here.
everybody in FL and MI thought the primaries wouldn't count, so untold thousands of would-be voters just stayed home! To allocate votes based on fake elections is just idiocy.
But thousands more did cote. What about them?
Flip a damn coin already.
Since I signed up on the Obama page (all I wanted to do was help with Spanish speaking voters) I get a request to contribute cash every day.
It's getting kind of annoying.
Sorry, dood, but I have to disagree here - I think not seating delegations from two states based on a "rules is rules" dispute sets a really bad precedent.
I don't know what the "solution" is and I'm not endorsing one. I also understand the whole "primaries are not 'real' elections" thing. But I don't like the idea of leaving two states out of the ultimate nominating process because there was a big internal pissing match.
This is Paul Harvey. Gooooooooooooooo-DAY!
This committee meeting is the ultimate in raw, revealed wholesale politics - not the sedate retail stuff that's been on display for the last year.
Yep. I'm glued. I love this stuff. I still don't think the rules should be changed in mid-game or end-game, though.
Uh, vote.
Note to Obama:
Taking the moral high ground will only mean an ass kicking. There is no morality in this process today. It is a game. See: election 2000 Florida.
A-freakin-men.
actually, in Florida there was a major property tax ammendment on the ballot, so the election did count if you own real property.
Where's my flying car, dammit! And transporters! I want transporters NOW!
We look for things, things that make us go.
Atrios, Please, there is no tablet on which the primary rules are enscribed. This is politics. BO comes from Chicago politics. He can handle it. So can HRC.
Florida needs to be heard today.
As a political junkie, this is fascinating stuff. And it might help us move on into the general.
Instantly deadthreaded:
For the most part, I'm starting to think that the key to reaching the tipping point in public transportation will be devising a better, more intelligent, and more distributed network of smaller vehicles. Focusing immediately on massive infrastructure projects makes the activation energy too high and forces the up-front long-term commitment of resources in a way that may end up being suboptimal.
excluding fl and mi probably changed the outcome already as it is. knowing that is what is driving the muckety mucks, i think.
Why not have the SCOTUS decide this? We know they are impartial and are willing to interfere in places where they have no right.
Since I signed up on the Obama page (all I wanted to do was help with Spanish speaking voters) I get a request to contribute cash every day.
It's getting kind of annoying.
HoneyBearKellyGoGiants
But but but Obama is a brand new kind of politician!
Riiiiiight.
And it isn't really a public election the way, say, voting for your Congressman is an election. It's a contest whereby members of a club choose the leader of that club, who then goes on to participate in a real election.
Except for the fact the clubs have set it up so they are the only two clubs who can play.
Try getting on the ballot as a third-party candidate.
Which is still irrelevant to the point, but anyway, just sayin'.....
If you ask me (and you didn't), just seems like a dog and pony show they're putting on today.
An exercise in futility.
Atrios: I don't want to know how. I don't want to learn. See? The more you drive, the less intelligent you are.
cahuenga
*
er, WTF? I must have missed SomeThing.
the principled side of me says, "Play by the rules".
the practical side of me says, you gotta throw FL and MI a bone.
I'm conflicted. Then again, I'm a Libra; nothing new about that.
But thousands more did cote. What about them?
I voted. Uncommitted. Where's s/he today? Who's representing her/him?
This is golden. The Democrats are the masters of the circular firing squad, but it's usually not this blatant or broadcast live.
Prince is quite the short man...hence, the heels.
My Dad had lunch with him one day...
Zap Rowsdower | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 11:30 am | #
My friend, back in the days when he was at UMTC, saw prince in a club (pre-Purple Rain). said he was very, very short and couldn't hold his drink.
Alright, black Hillary supporter on CSpan, shut up now and take your place in the back of the Obama bus...
...that goes for the rest of you Hillary people too!
Odd, that, A. This committee meeting is the ultimate in raw, revealed wholesale politics - not the sedate retail stuff that's been on display for the last year.
Have I told you lately that I love you?
I think changing the rules midgame is not the way to do things
Totally agree. Lack of respect for the rules and the process is a slippery slope into the abyss, q.v. the Bush administration.
I voted. Uncommitted. Where's s/he today? Who's representing her/him?
Vicki, Who ♥ Al Gore
You can vote uncommitted? I didn't know that.
The Nation once was pushing for a None of the Above choice.
That woulda been cool.
look, in august there will be people from michigan and florida from the convention. but there's no right way to translate what happened in those contests into supporters of clinton and obama, so any compromise arrived at has nothing to do with the voters of michigan and florida, it's just about obama and clinton.
er, WTF? I must have missed SomeThing.
Nancy Willing
It's a movie quote.
It's my firm belief that Atrios is channeling Miller from the movie Repo Man
everybody in FL and MI thought the primaries wouldn't count, so untold thousands of would-be voters just stayed home! To allocate votes based on fake elections is just idiocy.
*
yup
I contend that it is cheating to pretend that there is no responsibility to the people in MI and FL who wanted an outcome that doesn't include a vote for Hillary.
Sorry for the blowhore, but a certain birthday boy is wearing sunglasses at night over at the homepage.
to me, the whole brouhaha over FL/MI throws into relief the utter and complete shameless hypocrisy of the Clinton campaign. is there any single electoral position during this primary they have not been on both sides of?
And my position on this issue is well-known. Shrugging off the residents of two states, telling them to suck it up, is just morally wrong.
Elias | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 11:40 am |
How long before your buddy Bugs takes over your shift at the McCain agitators club?
enjoy McBush's 'popularity' while you can, AH; this is as good as it's going to get for him. Once Hillary finally bows to the inevitable, Obama is going to turn his guns on McBush and wipe the floor with his ass.
Odd, that, A. This committee meeting is the ultimate in raw, revealed wholesale politics - not the sedate retail stuff that's been on display for the last year.
We prefer our elections decided by exit polls and TV cable channels.
Thenk yew.
If Florida and Michigan get totally seated, does that mean in 2012, everybody will say fuck it and we will have 50 primaries in October 2011?
That is my concern. The stripping totally is harsh. 50% penalty seems like a reasonable way to go.
This is golden. The Democrats are the masters of the circular firing squad, but it's usually not this blatant or broadcast live.
Thinking for oneself is a circular firing squad, squawk.
republics and lemmings: marching into the sea
look, in august there will be people from michigan and florida from the convention. but there's no right way to translate what happened in those contests into supporters of clinton and obama, so any compromise arrived at has nothing to do with the voters of michigan and florida, it's just about obama and clinton.
Prexactly.
We prefer our elections decided by exit polls and TV cable channels.
Thenk yew.
Rmj:
Don't forget the Supremes.
I agree w/ Atrios on this, also. And w/ John H. Farr.
And would add, if people feel they are disenfranchised, why would they want to vote at all? There are huge numbers of people who don't vote because they feel that the system is rigged and corrupt and their vote doesn't matter a hill of beans in this mumble mumble mumble.
I have always felt pretty much that way, never registered under a party because the Dems are too timid and not lefty enough for me. But I almost always vote. This year I have decided that I will register as an official (D). That way I will get to vote in primaries, at least. I am considering going to Ohio for GOTV, because I live in red-ass KY .
I sure like Arthenia Joyner.
Are there Hillary protesters outside the DNC meeting?
Are we going to see a picture of them with their faces identified, a la the congressional staffers that Repugs flew down to florida to shut down the recount?
OK, black Hillary supporter on Cspan, you've said enough. Sit down and take your place like Al Gore told you in 2000 on the floor of the US Congress...
...haven't you learned anything?
BTW, if you buy that boxed set of "Square Pegs" at Amazon, you can get a deal on the "Charles in Charge" set, too.
Just saying!
We have SUV, we are strong.
Damn.
I forgot it's all HRC's fault.
Charlie Crist and the GOP state lege had nothing to do with fucking with Florida's primary.
There's a certain attitude I'm seeing that democracy shouldn't matter if it doesn't support your candidate. Pretty distasteful, IMHO.
Sorry for the blowhore, but...
Don't EVER be sorry for a blowhore, dood. NEVER!
I would prefer some irrational number to the 50% rule.
Am I forgiving you for being a fucking asshole, or just accepting that you are an asshole and are unwilling to change Elias? I forget.
There's a certain attitude I'm seeing that democracy shouldn't matter if it doesn't support your candidate. Pretty distasteful, IMHO.
Molly Ivors
Blasphemer!
I'm listening to it and find it really interesting. There are the emotional appeals, the lawyerly arguments, the audience partisans and panel having to digest it all. I like seeing all these folks at the tops of their games.
.
There's a certain attitude I'm seeing that democracy shouldn't matter if it doesn't support your candidate.
You're an old white woman. What do YOU know about "rocking out"???
Don't forget the Supremes.
noblejoanie
That's the back up when the exit polls fail us.
We are Americans. We can't wait for election returns to be counted. Or even recounted.
The uncertainty would tear us apart. And if we can't get somewhere faster without a car than with a car, we'll never give up our cars!
We are smart! We make things go!
"we get a tan"-Huck and McCain supporters playing FL and MI protestors
It is pretty bizzarre that a bunch of Republicans got to decide to destroy Florida's primary. Whoever came up with that system was obviously naive about how dastardly a certain party would get.
Careful, HBK. You're being reasonable again. Can't have that.
Fine...account for HRC's votes.
Then what do you do with the "uncommitted" folks (40% in MI)?
Don't forget the Supremes.
"Stooooooooooooooned... love!"
McStain is hunting for a VP candidate who's shorter than he is.
Lotsa luck, John. Have you checked out the midget store?
There's a certain attitude I'm seeing that democracy shouldn't matter if it doesn't support your candidate. Pretty distasteful, IMHO.
Molly Ivors
Welcome to American politics.
Charlie Crist and the GOP state lege had nothing to do with fucking with Florida's primary.
you must mean the bill, authored by a Democrat, supported by 100% of the Democrats in the Florida legislature?
and the national party is supposed to authorize chumps like Karen Thurman and Steve Geller to continue to act like chumps why, exactly?
Shrugging off the residents of two states, telling them to suck it up, is just morally wrong.
I'll tell you what, I've totally lost respect for some people here who have told me to "get over it, you weren't disenfranchised."
Fuck them and their shallow opinions. Clearly, they don't understand the way in which our choices were subverted.
What do YOU know about "rocking out"???
(hangs head in shame)
It is pretty bizzarre that a bunch of Republicans got to decide to destroy Florida's primary.
republics outnumber Dems something like 2-1 in the FL state leg.
We have SCOTUS, we are strong.
Did I type blowwhore?
I really am senile...
Then what do you do with the "uncommitted" folks (40% in MI)?
Commitment ceremonies?
They'll do 'til the marriages are sanctioned, I guess...
Arm wrestling is the only way to settle this.
Fuck them and their shallow opinions. Clearly, they don't understand the way in which our choices were subverted.
I'm glad the party is recognizing it and at least trying to approximate a solution.
I really am senile...
I thought you were talking about the comedian...
Obama wasn't on the ballot in Michigan, right?
Can somebody please tell me how awarding delegates to anybody makes any kind of sense whatsoever?
Am I missing something?
Arm wrestling is the only way to settle this.
Man, I loved "Over The Top".
/meet me half waaaayyyyyy.....
There's a certain attitude I'm seeing that democracy shouldn't matter if it doesn't support your candidate.
Well, to be fair, your candidate does in fact suck.
If we're talking "fair" they should redo the primaries, which they're not going to do. Or, they should exclude all the current votes from FL and MI. Those are the two "fair" otpions.
Anything else is just a cheap flawed compromise that benefits one candidate over another.
In the end, I sincerely hope whatever they decide doesn't make a difference to the eventual outcome.
I really am senile...
Even the youngest fingers can make a typo.
steve,
Gardner Campbell is a wonderful person, BTW. Smart and funny and generous--we could have talked for hours,m though we only had about an hour and a half stolen from panels.
I would never claim that people in MI and FL weren't disenfranchised. I would just claim that they were irreprably disenfranchised, so that there is now no fair remedy.
"not a real election"? So I guess atrios wouldn't object if the super delegates just ignored the primaries altogether and picked whomever they liked. Or, if the party officials just handed over the nomination to whichever candidate came up with the biggest bribe. Hey it's just a club--they should be able to do what they want, right?
Arm wrestling is the only way to settle this.
NTodd, Pink Poseur
Fuck you! Flip a coin dammit!
Man, I loved "Over The Top".
/meet me half waaaayyyyyy.....
Zap Rowsdower | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 11:48 am | #
The "Citizen Kane" of competitive arm wrestling movies.
steve,
Gardner Campbell is a wonderful person, BTW. Smart and funny and generous--we could have talked for hours,m though we only had about an hour and a half stolen from panels.
Molly Ivors | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 11:49 am | #
I am delighted (although not surprised) to hear it.
Are we going to see a picture of them with their faces identified, a la the congressional staffers that Repugs flew down to florida to shut down the recount?
steve hüssein™ simels
*
some website gave the names and occupations of all those caught in the hall in protest but when I went to publish a post on it, my pc shut it self the fuck down... no lie.
whhhhhoooooooo oooooo, I did give up on the idea.
I'm glad the party is recognizing it and at least trying to approximate a solution.
Molly Ivors
But how can you approximate a solution if there was never a fair vote by the people?
Obama wasn't on the ballot in Michigan, right?
Correct. Hillary was on the ballot.
Florida is undoubtedly easier.
But the fact is if Obama had thrown support behind a revote it would have happened. He didn't, because he thought it wouldn't benefit him.
That's some pretty cold calculation, and it sucks.
Just my opinion, of course.
Arm wrestling is the only way to settle this.
NTodd, Pink Poseur
Fuck you! Flip a coin dammit!
Adam Hominem Not banned yet | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 11:50 a
what about dwarf tossing?
The "Citizen Kane" of competitive arm wrestling movies.
And if Kenny Loggins was composing music back in Orson's day, he would've written the music for that movie.
they should be able to do what they want, right?
Uh, well, yes -- since that's why super-delegates were created.
We have SUV, we are strong.
Your dick is inversely proportional to the size and weight of that SUV.
If you own an Esclade, a Hummvee, a Lincoln Navigator, a Armada, or one of the many other 5,000 lb plus SUVs: You are beyond gay, and have to sit down with a catheter and a microscope to find your dick to take a piss.
This is especially true if your SUV only is driven to the store and work, and has no rock chips in the paint or the underside.
Would someone please tell those loud, obnoxious Hillary supporters to be quiet because it's a foregone conclusion and they should just get over it already...
it's funny to me that Charlie Crist always gets dragged into this. the guys a total baby-faced thug, but he had 100 timesless to do with the changed primary date than the leader of the FL dem party, or the Dem leader of the state Senate.
what part of "Florida Democrats fucked themselves, again" do people fail to grasp?
I really am senile...
I thought you were just horny.
Maybe that's the same thing ...
I would never claim that people in MI and FL weren't disenfranchised. I would just claim that they were irreprably disenfranchised, so that there is now no fair remedy.
blerb
A revote would have worked, but na ga hah pen.
Most absurd thing I've read in a long time, from Charlie Gibson:
There was a very strong--you know, you go back to the Powell speech. There was a lot of skepticism raised about that.
I was there, Charlie, and no, there wasn't. There was near-100% universal praise of what looked to me and a lot of other DHFs like very, very thin evidence.
The "Citizen Kane" of competitive arm wrestling movies.
steve hüssein™ simels
*
I finally watched Citizen Kane the other day.
Fuck them and their shallow opinions. Clearly, they don't understand the way in which our choices were subverted.
Vicki, Who ♥ Al Gore
Having often found my choices in the primary reduced to two doofuses whom people in Iowa and New Hampshire apparently found "electable," and all other choices eliminated long before my state's primary: pardon me if I have no sympathies for the "disenfranchised" argument.
The whole system subverts choices; it's just a matter of what level it's done at.
what about dwarf tossing?
Some people juggle geese.
Florida is undoubtedly easier.
But the fact is if Obama had thrown support behind a revote it would have happened. He didn't, because he thought it wouldn't benefit him.
That's some pretty cold calculation, and it sucks.
Just my opinion, of course.
Molly Ivors
Yes, but you're not screaming it at the top of your lungs so we can't hear you.
We have small penis, we are not strong. 
I would just claim that they were irreprably disenfranchised, so that there is now no fair remedy.
I would agree with this.
But it counted this time, RMJ.
Of course, there are plenty of people pissed off that South Dakota and Montana still get to have a say.
if Obama had thrown support behind a revote it would have happened. He didn't, because he thought it wouldn't benefit him.
1) How do you know the first part?
2) Why would you expect a political candidate to petition for a midstream change in the rules that would result in a disadvantage to them? That's really asking a lot.
my pc shut it self the fuck down... no lie.
Jeabus folks go here and pick one of the top 100 linux distributions. Any would be more reliable than that broken windows crap.
http://distrowatch.com/?newsid=04911
Looks like Atrios is trying to herd us all into cities again ... Kansas cities ....
Just my opinion, of course.
Molly Ivors |
Taking back Eschaton, one comment at a time.
Thank you.
There was a very strong--you know, you go back to the Powell speech. There was a lot of skepticism raised about that.
I was there, Charlie, and no, there wasn't. There was near-100% universal praise of what looked to me and a lot of other DHFs like very, very thin evidence.
wtfwjd?
I heard that. They went on to excuse Powell for giving it. They said he knew at the time it was a pack of lies, when I heard at the time that he'd vetted all the data himself to be sure it was true.
So much BS, from so many people.
I would just claim that they were irreprably disenfranchised, so that there is now no fair remedy.
I would agree with this.
Vicki, Who ♥ Al Gore
A revote is the only fair remedy, but it's not on the table.
And I suppose you could argue that a re-vote would be unfair to the rules of the Dem party.
So I guess I agree too.
So what do we do?
how about a round of bowling, a round of Horse, and a round of dwarf tossing.
best 2 out of 3?
Perhaps fish slapping?
It isn't important that muckety mucks from Florida and Michigan get to go to the big party in Denver.
No, Atrios.
It doesn't matter if 2 of the most important electoral states get fucked over because these 2 states really aren't pertinent to the general election, because all that matters is who becomes the "leader of the club..."
blerb,
1)the negotiations were fairly public
2)because it would be fair and, uh, democratic?
Wacky, I know.
But the fact is if Obama had thrown support behind a revote it would have happened. He didn't, because he thought it wouldn't benefit him.
That's some pretty cold calculation, and it sucks.
Just my opinion, of course.
Molly Ivors |
*
I don't know...mebbe. There is all the other people in MI who might disagree with you.
Molly,
Your post today is simply wonderful.
Troll tossing
how about a round of bowling, a round of Horse, and a round of dwarf tossing.
best 2 out of 3?
Rock, Paper, Scissors is clearly the only solution.
Even a revote wouldn't be entirely fair, because the candidates who followed the rules and didn't campaign in the state would be at an unfair disagvantage against the candidate who didn't follow the rules and established a presence. You can't just launch a state campaign machine from zero.
Why would Sen. Clinton or Sen. Obama support a particular position on this, even if it might hurt them?
Principle.
Something I want to see just fucking once before I die.
I would agree with this.
~~~~~~~~~
I guess that's where you and I differ.
Disenfranchisement doesn't usually make me smile..
Why would Sen. Clinton or Sen. Obama support a particular position on this, even if it might hurt them?
Principle.
Something I want to see just fucking once before I die.
(stands and applauds)
because all that matters
I think one thing BHO and HRC supporters here agree on, with near unanimity, is that you are fucking Moron.
Moron Troll: a uniter not a divider.
There is all the other people in MI who might disagree with you.
Our state considered a revote, but the secretary of state said no go, too expensive.
There was a very strong--you know, you go back to the Powell speech. There was a lot of skepticism raised about that.
I was there, Charlie, and no, there wasn't. There was near-100% universal praise of what looked to me and a lot of other DHFs like very, very thin evidence.
wtfwjd? | Homepage | 05.31.08 - 11:52 am
I was in a graduate seminar that winter, and more than a few students were swayed by Powell, never mind that I tried to explain that Powell was full of shit, and that he wasn't really that great guy 'everyone' thought he was.
Anyone else think it's silly to argue for protecting IA and NH's right to act like groundhogs in the primaries?
Hillary and Obama should have a dance-off. That is the only fair way to decide this delegate thing.
Thanks, Hecate. That means a lot to me.
shite, the revote was an option but deemed 'unaffordable', no? Too bad we all didn't send pennies..
"Five Intellectually Bankrupt Supreme Court Justices" [Kathryn Jean Lopez]
Howard Dean seeks to unite his party by getting their anger up about a supposedly-stolen election. I half expect Al Gore to show up at the Wardman Park before day's end. Like Bill Clinton presiding over a Mideast summit handshake, Al Gore can cry as he watches Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama kiss.
And then President Obama can "heal" the nation by putting Hillary Clinton on the Supreme Court.
Dean was being polite. He shoulda called then Long Dong and his fourway.
As it is right now, the whole primary system is nuts. It takes too damn long, it's incredibly messy and confusing (I still don't know what a caucus is or how it works), and I've changed my mind about who I would vote for if the NY primary were held today.
There's no "fair" way to resolve today's problem because the underlying factors are impossible to reconcile.
But since it's clear who the nominee is going to be, I just want it to be over. Dragging this on until Denver makes the Dems look like idiots.
Principle.
Something I want to see just fucking once before I die.
OK, go to the front office and wait on that oak bench. You'll be seen soon enough.
But it counted this time, RMJ.
Of course, there are plenty of people pissed off that South Dakota and Montana still get to have a say.
Molly Ivors
First time in a long time. Nice, but as rare as a cool day in August.
And I think the people "pissed off" are, with all due respect, a figment of Hillary's imagination.
I got no problem with them voting and the vote maybe (it won't, let's get real) meaning something. It's Hillary's very ugly tactics I disagree with.
But anyway....
Rock, Paper, Scissors is clearly the only solution
the fact that you are so clearly in the tank for the Mining, Timber, and Cutting interests is really harshing my high, Molly.
The campaigns had more than enough money on hand to pay for a revote.
Anyone else think it's silly to argue for protecting IA and NH's right to act like groundhogs in the primaries?
Yes. People will argue about it until they are blue in the face, though.
Why did the chairman of the Fl. Dem party let himself get played?
Is the Arthur Murray franchise still around? With all the tapdancing media whores Gibson and Gregory are doing, they could give lessons. And Gregory could ask his buddy Karl Rove to lead the break dancing lessons.
Anyone else think it's silly to argue for protecting IA and NH's right to act like groundhogs in the primaries?
noblejoanie
*
some decent suggestions here today:
rotation of states and blocks of days for the vote over some month's time.
the fact that you are so clearly in the tank for the Mining, Timber, and Cutting interests is really harshing my high, Molly.
Actually, I'm in the can for the Dwarf Lobby.
Anyone else think it's silly to argue for protecting IA and NH's right to act like gr