I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
I wish I had something profound to contribute.
Hello? Anybody there?
third
Fresh rocks!
.
There's a bird outside my window doing the first four notes of Beethoven's Fifth.
FInally got around to installing PGP on the new Macintosh.
Smell that MILSPEC-Grade encryption!
Suck it, NSA. Suck it HARD!
Weeee, room to run and jump!
Gonna havta hop on it to obtain beer, again, I fear...
.
rock'n'roll
What's PGP?
thought i'm actually listening to West Side Story
I'm going to go make and then eat toast.
I love toast.
.
Perfect opportunity for a Catholic joke:
A drunken man staggers in to a Catholic church, sits down in a confession
box and says nothing.
The bewildered priest coughs to attract his attention, but still the man
says nothing.
The priest then knocks on the wall three times in a final attempt to get
the man to speak.
Finally, the drunk replies: "No use knockin' mate, there's no paper in
this one either."
TheOtherWA: What's PGP?
Pretty Good Popcicles.
.
I like Sleater-Kinney, but they sure do sound an awful lot like Tsunami, yes?
.
American troops "devalued Iraqi lives".
jp, any advice on hooking up a wireless router?
I'm going to go make and then eat toast.
I love toast.
GWPDA, yclept Irate Scholar
Fond of Gonzales, are we?
I'm going to go make and then eat toast.
I love toast.
"there's a couplea white boys out there dressed like Hasidic diamond merchants. One of them wants 4 fried chickens and a Coke. the other wants dry white bread, toasted".
-
Anyone want to clean my butcher's block for me?
What's PGP?
Yeah you know me!!
Olaf glad and big: jp, any advice on hooking up a wireless router?
Yep. Assign a username and password to its administration end, first off.
Turn on the strongest encryption it has, and turn off SSID broadcast.
.
PGP=Pretty Good Privacy, a program to encrypt files, as I recall from my wasted youth.
hmmmmmmm, Slater-Kinney!
"What's PGP?"
Pretty Good Privacy.
Personal encryption for email, Instant Messaging, files on your computer, etc.
Never heard of 'em...? Figures.
Click here: TSUNAMI.
.
More white musicians?
Simels will be so pleased.
I have never been able to understand the attraction of Sleater Kinney.
jp, any advice on hooking up a wireless router?
Passwords. Unless you like sharing bandwith.
"There's a bird outside my window doing the first four notes of Beethoven's Fifth."
Sounds delicious. Try slow-roasted with rosemary stuffing and baby cool-climate potatoes. And a fruity Australian white.
.
flory: I have never been able to understand the attraction of Sleater Kinney.
I only know the name, not the moosic.
.
I have never been able to understand the attraction of Sleater Kinney.
flory
I'm pretty sure that's a major arterial in Olympia, Washington.
National Existence is political order experienced by men of the nation as a Rise to Being. Its opposite is a replacement of political order experienced by men, women, children and slaves as a Fall from Being. This Redirection in the experience of the Terms of Being (Self, Society, G-d and World) results in the collapse of Self into Society and all into World. The goal, wittingly or otherwise: a World State.
Does anyone else think this is Modern America's contribution to the ver growing theoretical claims of fascism?
Just so you all know, tomorrow I'm going to be brewing up a nice batch of Extra Special Bitter. The weather here is perfect for brewing and I'll be downing an excellent swill in about three weeks.
Yep, my parents live off of the S-K exit in Olympia.
I'm pretty sure that's a major arterial in Olympia, Washington.
R. Manhammer, more peach than
Ahhh!! So that's the sound of a traffic jam I hear when I click the YouTube?
a non white artist 
Dizzee Rascal - Sirens
The Jester: Just so you all know, tomorrow I'm going to be brewing up a nice batch of Extra Special Bitter. The weather here is perfect for brewing and I'll be downing an excellent swill in about three weeks.
Saaz hops?
.
Sounds delicious. Try slow-roasted with rosemary stuffing and baby cool-climate potatoes. And a fruity Australian white.
TelltaleHeart
While this is a tried and true recipe for xtian babies under three months of age, I think for passerines, one needs a rose rather than a fruity white.
I'll be downing an excellent swill in about three weeks.
The Jester
If it's only three weeks old, it will not be excellent.
Pretty Good Privacy.
Thank you, Chris.
Religion is ethnocentrism at it's worst.
Happy to be of service!
Just so you all know, tomorrow I'm going to be brewing up a nice batch of Extra Special Bitter. The weather here is perfect for brewing and I'll be downing an excellent swill in about three weeks.
The Jester
OK, color me envious.
Would "Jazz on," be just too suggestive to say?
Religion is ethnocentrism at it's worst.
1Watt, Hermit
Depends on the religion, depends on the person believing in it. Quakers, Universalists, etc.
Sounds delicious. Try slow-roasted with rosemary stuffing and baby cool-climate potatoes. And a fruity Australian white.
.
ha ha.pretty good.
odd, though. google says the bird is native to panama and mexico. not long island.
TheOtherWA: Thank you, Chris.
I liked my answer better.
.
mmmmm .... bitter.
If it's only three weeks old, it will not be excellent.
JR, kerosene and a match
Ah ha! A swill elitist, eh?
Was it the NPR appearance that foretold the death of Sleater-Kinney, or was it the appearance on Letterman?
Saaz hops?
.
Kent Goldings and Fuggles
I'll be downing an excellent swill in about three weeks.
The Jester
If it's only three weeks old, it will not be excellent.
Like Dick cheney's undergarnments:
Depends.
i remember having excellent 'spring wine' in Germany back in the day that was mere months old, being from the fall grapes, and it being May. Sophisiticated and multitoned, no, but fine stuff nevertheless.
-
I'm going to go make and then eat toast.
I love toast.
GWPDA, yclept Irate Scholar
That might be the most radical statement on this thread yet.
Religion is ethnocentrism at it's worst.
1Watt, Hermit
Depends on the religion, depends on the person believing in it. Quakers, Universalists, etc.
olvlzl, jamais cool
but they all expect conformity.
Depends on the religion, depends on the person believing in it. Quakers, Universalists, etc.
and actually, Catholicism, which gets a lot of deserved grief but is pretty much the epitome of universalism in theory.
JP, your answer was funnier, but not what I was looking for.
The Jester: Kent Goldings and Fuggles
Awesome!
.
mmmmm .... bitter.
Little Boots
The New Republican Party Mantra of D00m.
i find Catholicism interesting because it is a link right back to the Roman Empire, into history.
Ah ha! A swill elitist, eh?
R. Manhammer
Well, most beer is too hurried. i like to let is settle in the carboy a bit before bottling. It makes for a very smooth and sneaky beer.
Saaz hops?
.
Kent Goldings and Fuggles
PLus some Target for bittering
Everything I know about Catholicism, I learned from Star Trek.
.
If anyone is interested, the Wikipedia entry on PGP is rather good.
Italy is home to the Vatican but they have some of the lowest birthrates in Europe.
I think European catholics listen to what the Pope sez then proceed to ignore him
lol
I love toast.
Toast with tea, or toast with coffee. Scrumptious.
smooth and sneaky
My nickname in high school.
and actually, Catholicism, which gets a lot of deserved grief but is pretty much the epitome of universalism in theory.
Little Boots
That's the trouble with blanket statements about religion, just about all of them apply to conservative, fundamentalist religion. Dawkins and Harris would collapse if their audience actually knew something about the diversity of religion.
There's really no food that goes with coffee.
.
i find Catholicism interesting because it is a link right back to the Roman Empire, into history.
Moonbootica, Jog On!
I like Catholocism because of incredibly pervasive yet nuanced guilt that so many hot Catholic girls have around sex. Ooh! Baby!
and Catholic countries always seemed more fun and relaxed than stuffy Protestant ones 
I think European catholics listen to what the Pope sez then proceed to ignore him
I'm not sure many even listen!
Church attendance in this country has dropped steadily since the 60s. It is at an all time low.
Dawkins and Harris would collapse if their audience actually knew something about the diversity of religion.
olvlzl,
You are waaaay off base, there.
There's really no food that goes with coffee.
Sure there is. Potica.
Or toast.
Have two pair of red bellied wood peckers on the front deck, yapping like dogs for some dog food. They're not as obnoxious as the blue jays.
There's really no food that goes with coffee.
.
Jeffraham Prestonian
Stroopwaffls
Pie goes very well with coffee. Mmmmm, pie.
There's really no food that goes with coffee.
.
i make a chocolate amaretto cheesecake on occasion that begs to differ.
-
I'm just angry and appalled that the Church has declared limbo-ing to be a sin.
I mean, really.
Well, most beer is too hurried. i like to let is settle in the carboy a bit before bottling. It makes for a very smooth and sneaky beer.
JR, kerosene and a match
In my universe, three weeks more than qualifies as "a bit." So, there.
Potica is proof that God loves us.
In my universe, three weeks more than qualifies as "a bit." So, there.
R. Manhammer
Three weeks is when you start "finishing"....
Yep. Assign a username and password to its administration end, first off.
***************************
ok. how do you do that?
masculine_monica_nyc: Sure there is. Potica.
I don't know what that is. I'm a hillbilly.
Or toast.
Bzzzt! Wrong answer!
.
You are waaaay off base, there.
JR, kerosene and a match
I don't think so, not after many discussions with their fan base. Most of them are just about entirely ignorant about the subject. As are the two high priests of atheist fundamentalism themselves.
In my universe, three weeks more than qualifies as "a bit." So, there.
I prefer stuff brewed on Tuesday.
Does anyone else think this is Modern America's contribution to the ver growing theoretical claims of fascism?
Sad thought, but
Isn't the guy who started this British, or am I confusing him with the guy quoted in the Guardian?
Also, how many Americans will really rally around this shit? Over the long haul.
There's really no food that goes with coffee.
.
Jeffraham Prestonian | Homepage | 04.21.07 - 6:44 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
what about pie?
Pie goes very well with coffee. Mmmmm, pie.
Everybody loves pie.
I'm just angry and appalled that the Church has declared limbo-ing to be a sin.
Everybody: Do the GAY VOODOO LIMBO TANGO AND WANGO DANCE!
I've long thought that the best new rock sounds a lot like the better-than-average old rock, Slater-Kinney being a good example
That's probably why the genre is in decline. In chess terms, "the lines have been played out," with little sense of discovery.
But Letterman and I have pretty similar retro tastes, and I generally enjoy his musical guests
Church attendance in this country has dropped steadily since the 60s. It is at an all time low.
Tena
Yeah, starve the beast.
I looooooooooooooooooooves me some Sleater-Kinney. Oh how I miss those girls, excuse me, women.
It isn't religion that is the problem -
It is the people.
Throwing Muses.
It isn't religion that is the problem -
It is the people.
Troutski | 04.21.07 - 6:48 pm | #
Guns don't kill people, religions kill people. With guns. Or something.
Troutski: Throwing Muses.
Dwarf tossing!
.
Bzzzt! Wrong answer!
More toast for meeeeeeeeee!
I'm just angry and appalled that the Church has declared limbo-ing to be a sin.
Richard McBrien had an interesting point about that, he said that if you don't believe that unbaptized children go to hell and they don't go to limbo you have to conclude that they are born in a state of grace. It actually overturns about 15 centuries of western Christian tradition. Though I'm sure Ratzinger will not admit that.
Alternately, figging.
.
It isn't religion that is the problem -
It is the people.
Religions don't crucify people, Romans crucify people.
for most of Europe I think its a post-religion phase, post fighting about faith, as least thats what I think but i'm no expert.
if that makes sense.
there are still some issues which have not been solved, I mean look at Poland, what a crazy country that is!
That's the trouble with blanket statements about religion, just about all of them apply to conservative, fundamentalist religion. Dawkins and Harris would collapse if their audience actually knew something about the diversity of religion.
olvlzl, jamais cool
I don't think so. If the religion claims to be the sole route to heaven, then it's wrong, obviously. There are many paths to the Buddha.
Moreover, until religious fascists finally read the memo that says religion is simply organized spirituality (rather in the same category as a "herd of cats"), and has nothing particularly useful to say about the physical world, we will continue to have religious-based strife in the world. Think Operation Iraqi Liberation.
Spirituality has much more to do with how we relate to ourselves and to others (as well as to the world outside of ourselves), than it does with implementing political power structures. Of course, you wouldn't know that to look at America these days.
There's really no food that goes with coffee.
I over baked some p-nut butter/chocolate chip cookies last week, the only way I could eat them was with coffee.
Church attendance in this country has dropped steadily since the 60s. It is at an all time low.
Tena
"All time" as in "all of time"? Nope.
"All time" as in "post-WWII"? Probably.
Church attendance was never all that high in America, even in Puritan New England. Lots of people fled the oppression of Masschusetts, or the parts the Puritans tried to control, because of religious persecution. The 1st Amendment didn't arise solely from the brain of Thomas Jefferson.
Church attendance reached its peak in this country after WWII, and has been moving steadily downward again ever since. Returning to normal, IOW.
Hey, I like toast! Just not with coffee. I think coffee and food are just not compatible.
.
Everybody: Do the GAY VOODOO LIMBO TANGO AND WANGO DANCE!
I'm so ready for that!
Damn catfish are chasing the ducks again.
It actually overturns about 15 centuries of western Christian tradition.
Not Quakerism. One of our tenets is that Man is inherently good and in a state of grace.
Pie goes very well with coffee. Mmmmm, pie.
Everybody loves pie.
And cake and coffee is good and Danish and coffee is good, and eggs and coffee - good, and and and -
I know there's more.
Alternately, figging.
.
Jeffraham Prestonian | Homepage | 04.21.07 - 6:49 pm | #
Ah, figging in the afternoon.
Feel the burn.
I prefer stuff brewed on Tuesday.
NTodd Kaczynski
I never drink anything that was compiled on a Monday.
Britain itself had it fair share of bloodshed over religion but it just about managed to avoid what went on in the Continent, the extremes that is.
I mean we were not directly effected by the Thirty Years War for example.
correct me if I'm wrong, not my area of history expertise
Everybody: Do the GAY VOODOO LIMBO TANGO AND WANGO DANCE!
Hee hee. I was about to go do the laundry, but...
Eating cheesecake without a cup of coffee is a sin.
Not Quakerism. One of our tenets is that Man is inherently good and in a state of grace.
NTodd Kaczynsk
And I love you for it.
Essentially, Buddhism says the same thing.
You just have to ditch your delusions to get to it.
Not Quakerism. One of our tenets is that Man is inherently good and in a state of grace.
You'll never get em to the collection plate with that attitude, mister.
I don't think so, not after many discussions with their fan base. Most of them are just about entirely ignorant about the subject. As are the two high priests of atheist fundamentalism themselves.
olvlzl
You have made this assertion here and elsewhere, but you haven't actually made an argument of put forth any evidence thereof.
Please do so.
R. Manhammer, more pinkish, there are many religions and many religous people who don't believe that their religion is the exclusive path to salvation, whatever they mean by that. The problem with the Dawkins-Harrisites is that they don't know that. Actually, a lot of Chrisitianity in the early centuries believed in universal salvation. It's too diverse to charecterize with a bunch of slogans, off hand dismissals and ingnorance based snark. Not to mention it's politically counterproductive for the left.
one time at my Primary School, we had a sponsored limbo around the school for charity.
Coffee cake goes with coffee. It's baked to go with coffee.
Not Quakerism. One of our tenets is that Man is inherently good and in a state of grace.
NTodd Kaczynski
Ignoring the wimmin again, are we?
VA Tech followers - can someone tell me if during all the Teevee discussion and blog discussion the Prozac factor has been brought up? Like the Columbine killers and other mass murderers were on it? And the fact that it apparently causes a significant proportion of users to go batshit violent crazy?
You just have to ditch your delusions to get to it.
Buddhaing is hard work! (I do love my delusions.)
For example, teh strawman "athiest fundamentalist".
There's no such thing.
my dad could never get his head around Hinduism when he was in Nepal but he understood Buddhism
The heron always waits until I feed the catfish and then he swoops in for fresh breaded catfish dinner. Mr. Heron is able to reason.
Off to feed the critters. Later.
one time at my Primary School, we had a sponsored limbo around the school for charity.
We did too, one time at band camp...
Ignoring the wimmin again, are we?
I never ignore wimmin. I'm always staring at their boobs.
Eating cheesecake without a cup of coffee is a sin.
rorschach |
Totally agree -
Not Quakerism. One of our tenets is that Man is inherently good and in a state of grace.
NTodd Kaczynski
Ignoring the wimmin again, are we?
flory | 04.21.07 - 6:54 pm | #
Another of Quakerism's tenets is that wimmen are nappy headed ho's.
to me here in Britain, secularism won a long time ago and the true die hard believers never got over it and bitch about it every single day
Eating cheesecake without a cup of coffee is a sin.
rorschach
This is in my canon of beliefs. Underlined, actually.
Britain itself had it fair share of bloodshed over religion but it just about managed to avoid what went on in the Continent, the extremes that is.
Cromwell's Puritanism and the events of the Interregnum, sparked by fears of kingly catholicism?
-
It isn't the military that's the problem it's the Iraqis.
Or
It isn't the disability system of the Pentagon that's the problem, it's the disabled.
You choose.
I like a fine, hoppy beer with my cheesecake. But that's just me.
.
Please do so.
JR, kerosene and a match
You have actually read Dawkins and Harris, haven't you?
Dawkins most recent lines are not only a demonstration of his having written a long book on a subject he didn't even bother to research, but he makes statements about probability that would lead you to conclude he didn't understand math basic to his own field. Harris is a total fraud and sounds more like a neo-con just about every time I dip into his tripe.
little boots
these guys really embody what the paranoid style in American politics means today. and the fact that John Birch-type whackos are given the nod of approval by the media critic for the Washington Post tells you how crazy the true believers are.
when people who talk like a FreiKorp bully get highlighted by mainstream conservatives you got to think things will get uglier rather quickly. the upside is people like GG can shine a spotlight on them, but these cockroaches won't scurry into the corners until decent, normal human beings dissociate themselves from the likes of Powerline and Instahack.
this Gaubatz guy is truly frightening.
Cromwell's Puritanism and the events of the Interregnum, sparked by fears of kingly catholicism?
-
Cynicus
The persecution of the Catholics under Elizabeth 1? (when Catholicism was outlawed)
Perhaps my favorite dessert consists of: Good coffee with a shot of Tia Maria, along with cheesecake or, failing that, tiramisu.
Coffee cake goes with coffee. It's baked to go with coffee.
Echidne of the snakes
You're being so literal.
Eating cheesecake without a cup of coffee is a sin.
rorschach
Is it a sin if you have two cups and leave the cheesecake behind. I don't do gelatin.
Another of Quakerism's tenets is that wimmen are nappy headed ho's.
NO RADIO SHOW FOR YOU! but
I never ignore wimmin. I'm always staring at their boobs.
NTodd Kaczynski
This is prolly not indicative of a state of grace.
Eating cheesecake is a sin.
*runs and hides*
Spirituality has much more to do with how we relate to ourselves and to others (as well as to the world outside of ourselves), than it does with implementing political power structures. Of course, you wouldn't know that to look at America these days.
R. Manhammer
I disagree with your definition of "spirituality", it's completely at odds with everything the word is used to mean.
my dad could never get his head around Hinduism when he was in Nepal but he understood Buddhism
Moonbootica,
It depends on the Buddhism - Hinduism is the basis of Buddhism, but from there it changed radically, to say the least. And the different sects are so very different, I found, that some are very close to Hinduism. I found Tibetan Buddhism to be every bit as esoteric and closer by far to Hinduism than Chinese Buddhism, and Zen, which developed from Chinese Buddhism.
I like a fine, hoppy beer with my cheesecake. But that's just me.
.
Sleeman's India pale Ale ought to do the trick.
Quakers rock.
Most of the leaders of the movement for women's suffrage were raised as Quakers, with the wacky notion that women and men are equal. And Quakers were instrumental to the creation of the Underground Railroad. And didja know that some Quaker meetings in the colonial U.S. blessed "Boston marriages"?
Yeah, I did a paper on Quaker history for a class way back when...
R. Manhammer, more pinkish, there are many religions and many religous people who don't believe that their religion is the exclusive path to salvation, whatever they mean by that.
olvlzl, jamais cool
People believe all kinds of crap. However, if I recall clearly from my days in church, each xtian sect believes it's way is the only way. It's church doctrine in every sect my parents joined. Those who belong to those sects but don't believe the doctrine of the church should be labeled heretics, I believe.
well guess I was wrong, i'll admit that
Eating cheesecake is a sin.
*runs and hides*
Echidne of the snakes
That's why I worship at the shrine of Echidne.
The persecution of the Catholics under Elizabeth 1?
Spanish terrorists! All spanish terrorists!!!
Is it a sin if you have two cups and leave the cheesecake behind. I don't do gelatin.
olvlzl, jamais cool | Homepage | 04.21.07 - 6:57 pm | #
Gelatin? Bleah. That's not real cheesecake.
Eating cheesecake is a sin.
Blasphemer!
Beer is good food.
.
However, if I recall clearly from my days in church, each xtian sect believes it's way is the only way. It's church doctrine in every sect my parents joined. Those who belong to those sects but don't believe the doctrine of the church should be labeled heretics, I believe.
R. Manhammer, more pinkish
You might believe that but it isn't true.
, each xtian sect believes it's way is the only way. I
Not true of Episcopalians. Or Unitarians - I'll let the Quaker speak for himself.
I disagree with your definition of "spirituality", it's completely at odds with everything the word is used to mean.
JR, kerosene and a match
Really? How so?
Dawkins most recent lines are not only a demonstration of his having written a long book on a subject he didn't even bother to research, but he makes statements about probability that would lead you to conclude he didn't understand math basic to his own field.
Again, an assertion.
Perhaps you missed the point of his book.
He's talking about religion as it is actually practiced, not the make believe world where goalposts can be moved everytime someone makes a critique.
This blogs sucks.
Too much talk about religion.
Eating cheesecake is a sin.
*runs and hides*
Echidne of the snakes
How does a snake run?
Enquiring minds want to know.
However, if I recall clearly from my days in church, each xtian sect believes it's way is the only way. It's church doctrine in every sect my parents joined. Those who belong to those sects but don't believe the doctrine of the church should be labeled heretics, I believe.
R. Manhammer, more pinkish
Nope.
Gelatin? Bleah. That's not real cheesecake.
rorschach
Oh, oh. This wouldn't have anything to do with grits would it?
Beer is good food.
Bier ist Gesund / Zum jeden Stund!
-
You might believe that but it isn't true.
olvlzl, jamais cool
You think so? Next time go ask your Baptist or your Assembly of God member if the Episcopals are going to hell or not. Better yet, read the church doctrine.
Bier ist Gesund / Zum jeden Stund!
-
Cynicus | Homepage | 04.21.07 - 7:00 pm | #
This is inarguable.
my brother knows more than m when it comes to stuff like religion and philosophy and so forth, he studied Religious Studies and English at Leeds University, graduated with a 2.1.
my brother, the most clever person in my family.
Really? How so?
R. Manhammer
There's always a component or implication of the metaphysical in the word "spirituality"... whether assocaited with religious belief or not.
Gelatin? Bleah. That's not real cheesecake.
rorschach
sacrilege.
You think so? Next time go ask your Baptist or your Assembly of God member if the Episcopals are going to hell or not. Better yet, read the church doctrine.
R. Manhammer, more pinkish | Homepage | 04.21.07 - 7:01 pm | #
You said every xtian sect, so asking two sects what they think really wouldn't prove a thing, now would it?
Perhaps you missed the point of his book.
He's talking about religion as it is actually practiced, not the make believe world where goalposts can be moved everytime someone makes a critique.
JR, kerosene and a match
Dawkins on "religion as it is practiced" is the type of expert whose expertise is unsullied by any knowledge of the subject he pontificates on.
Seeing as he doesn't practice any religion, the idea that he knows anything about "how it is practiced" is laughable. He knows as much about "religion as it is practiced" as I know about accounting. And my father is a CPA.
Germans have a morning beer heh
when I was in Austria, the lakeside town we were staying in held a festival and had signs saying 'from 10am drink a pint'
Yes, I believe I'll have another beer.
.
He's talking about religion as it is actually practiced, not the make believe world where goalposts can be moved everytime someone makes a critique.
JR, kerosene and a match
Oh, give me a break JR. He's talking about religion as he presents it soley to suit his own purpose. He's a huckster who knows how to appeal to a particular audience.
You certainly now that there are enormous difference between religions and even within those religions. Where are the goalposts you're talking about?
Eating cheesecake without a cup of coffee is a sin.
Watching Twin Peaks without coffee is, um, something?
Oh, oh. This wouldn't have anything to do with grits would it?
olvlzl, jamais cool | Homepage | 04.21.07 - 7:00 pm | #
I profoundly hope not.
There's always a component or implication of the metaphysical in the word "spirituality"... whether assocaited with religious belief or not.
JR, kerosene and a match
Ideas: physical, or metaphysical?
Discuss.
Seeing as he doesn't practice any religion, the idea that he knows anything about "how it is practiced" is laughable. He knows as much about "religion as it is practiced" as I know about accounting. And my father is a CPA.
Rmj, Divinely Ironic
Ooo Oo I know how this works - it's like when the outraged people who never listen to rap want rap to be "fixed."
and the Austrians liked having half a chicken with bread??????
In the fuss over John Edwards' haircuts last week, I missed this bit about Chris Dodd until it was on "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me":
He spent over $1500 on Pez dispensers to be used as "thank you" gifts for supporters and campaign workers. Pez is HQed in CT and he wants to make Pez the official WH candy. Oy vey
He wanted Pez to custom design a Dodd dispenser with his head on it. Too expensive; he had to settle for a donkey
Austria, must more relaxed than Swiss German Bernese Oberland heh
You know, I find it funny that we live in a world where the words of the divine one; "Love one and other" and "Treat others as you would want to be treated" have somehow become divisive and the basis for mistreating and discriminating against other people.
Gawd, no wonder that I drink.
You think so? Next time go ask your Baptist or your Assembly of God member if the Episcopals are going to hell or not. Better yet, read the church doctrine.
R. Manhammer, more pinkish
If that's what you mean, you're doing just what Dawkins does, removes cards he doesn't want to come up because it doesn't lead to the conclusion he wants. It's dishonest and a distortion of reality.
Not true of Episcopalians. Or Unitarians - I'll let the Quaker speak for himself.
Tena
I've never attended either an Episcopalian or a Quaker church, so am not informed on their beliefs, but I have moderately extensive experience of the bible-pounding fundy religions of the Deep South, and I can tell you from personal experience (and reading while bored to tears during the service) that those people believe if you don't share their system of belief, then you are going to hell.
Check out the tolerance of one xtian sect for the others. Check out Mitt Romney's "acceptance" by other xtian sects.
But. If you think YOUR religion is tolerance, please provide a link to church doctrine that so states.
Jonah Goldberg, the son of Lucianne Goldberg, wrote this:
Moreover, Kim Bassinger should be ashamed of herself. Releasing that tape as an act of vengeance against her daughter's father was disgusting too.
Germans have a morning beer heh
when I was in Austria, the lakeside town we were staying in held a festival and had signs saying 'from 10am drink a pint'
Moonbootica, Jog On!
I read somewhere (and perhaps it was nonsense) that Europeans drank beer rather than water because the water supplies were so polluted and unclean. Coffee, in this argument, was credited with the Enlightenment, because people could drink it (the water was heated enough to kill germs) and actually sober up.
It's a theory.
I never ignore wimmin. I'm always staring at their boobs.
NTodd Kaczynski
This is prolly not indicative of a state of grace.
flory
True, I generally am not very graceful in when women are around.
when I was in Austria, the lakeside town we were staying in held a festival and had signs saying 'from 10am drink a pint'
because, even if the trains don't run on time, if the passengers are schnocked enough, they won't notice. And that's as good as being on time, nicht wahr?
-
There's always a component or implication of the metaphysical in the word "spirituality"... whether assocaited with religious belief or not.
JR, kerosene and a match
Let's see, you ever hear of "The Meme"?
bible-pounding fundy religions of the Deep South, and I can tell you from personal experience (and reading while bored to tears during the service) that those people believe if you don't share their system of belief, then you are going to hell.
Honey, nobody is disputing that - it's the blanket claim that they are alllll the same.
And that's not true. Simple.
Draco during our 2005 General election it was revealed that the Labour party had footed a £7,700 bill for Cherie Blair's hairstylist heh
It's true, Mrs. Ibraham, I hate to see these scumbags back in any form, and getting any kind of legitimacy. And I don't mean to diminish the threat. The only thing that gives me some comfort is that we've been here before, and survived. I really think their day has come and gone. But I'm awfully glad people aren't being sanguine about all this.
Too damned much religion talk here.
I gotta go.
Arguing about Dawkins, are we? Allow me to wander, a bunny in the woods, unwisely in. Metaphysics is one of the tiny number of things I actually know a little about. Dawkins is one of those guys, highly schooled in their own discipline, who write about other people's as if they were unaware that it actually is a subject of long study.
Seriously, the man should at least read Hegel, to say nothing of Dun Scotus. Some of arguments are at the silly undergraduate level.
Seeing as he doesn't practice any religion,
Rmj
olvlzl seems quite happy making statements about atheism, a subject which he has less familiarity with than accounting. You have also made some (although not the same) claims in re atheism and atheists without being a practicing athiest.
olvlzl has failed also claimed that there is such a thing as "fundamentalist atheists" and the Dawkins doesn't know the math in his own field. I am waiting for him to back those claims up.
Okay, I'm really gonna go do laundry now. Ciao a tutti i bei atrioti. And thanks for the interesting conversation.
Let's see, you ever hear of "The Meme"?
olvlzl,
Is that like "The Secret"?
But. If you think YOUR religion is tolerance, please provide a link to church doctrine that so states.
R. Manhammer, more pinkish
I don't happen to belong to any religion or profess any particular belief. I've never made a secret of that. I'm always so interested in people who profess rigorous honesty and adherence to reality who, none the less, practice distortion and dishonesty in the service of bigotry.
I'll be back later. Got some grilling to do
I read somewhere (and perhaps it was nonsense) that Europeans drank beer rather than water because the water supplies were so polluted and unclean. Coffee, in this argument, was credited with the Enlightenment, because people could drink it (the water was heated enough to kill germs) and actually sober up.
The Beer Purity Laws in the area that became Germany date from 1506. The pasteurization of milk to keep kids from developing TB from contaminated milk dates from 1948, the American occupation.
Priorities, man, priorities!
-
It's a theory.
Rmj
No, it's a WAG.
... Surrounded by his Praetorian Guard, Wolfowitz insulated himself at the World Bank from the career staff. There, as at the Pentagon, Wolfowitz pushed aside the professionals and replaced them with a small band of politically reliable assistants. Wolfowitz rewarded them, too, on his own authority, with enormous tax-free salaries. Consider Kevin Kellems, his public affairs officer at the Pentagon, who had guided conservative media from that perch and is known as "keeper of the comb," for having been the person to hand Wolfowitz the infamous comb he licked before slicking down his hair in the Michael Moore film "Fahrenheit 9/11." Kellems was given a salary of $240,000, at least equal to what World Bank vice presidents with years of service earn. ...
yuck and poo
There's always a component or implication of the metaphysical in the word "spirituality"... whether assocaited with religious belief or not.
JR, kerosene and a match
Of course. There is also always a compenent or implication of sort of indescribable epiphany, but that doesn't make my assertion that spirituality's application is in how we relate to ourselves and others, and even (sometimes) the world around us. It still, as I assert, has zero to do with describing the physical world we live in or with establishing secular power structures. YMMV.
My personal doctrine:
Shun thy thread that religith too much.
I'm going to a bonfire in a bit. Nite all!!
practice distortion and dishonesty in the service of bigotry.
olvlzl
Like your strawman "fundamentalist atheists"?
Honey, nobody is disputing that - it's the blanket claim that they are alllll the same.
And that's not true. Simple.
Tena | Homepage | 04.21.07 - 7:05 pm | #
Once again, Eddie Izzard's wisdom shall save us all:
"Bless me, for I slept with
my neighbor's wife." "Heard it. "I want an original sin.""Oh, I'm terribly sorry." Anglicans don't have that. "Vicar, I've done many bad things." "Well, so have l."
"What shall I do?""Drink five bloody marysand you won't remember."
I read somewhere (and perhaps it was nonsense) that Europeans drank beer rather than water because the water supplies were so polluted and unclean. Coffee, in this argument, was credited with the Enlightenment, because people could drink it (the water was heated enough to kill germs) and actually sober up.
I might buy the last part - I've heard the first part before, too - about beer, and maybe so - but I've read that when coffee got really popular and coffee houses opened up - the morality police in Britain decided coffee was bad. For awhile. And there once was quite a campaign to get people to quit drinking gin and back to drinking beer, too.
Too damned much religion talk here.
I gotta go.
Well, most of it false religions, so you can stay, right?
Is that like "The Secret"?
JR, kerosene and a match
No, it's like Dawkins silly idea which can't be falsified, proven, defined and which large numbers of scientists seem to think is tripe. Doesn't stop the Dawkins cultists from believing in it. Assuming that they can even understand what he means by it.
It still, as I assert, has zero to do with describing the physical world we live in or with establishing secular power structures. YMMV.
R. Manhammer
Oh, definitely.
Robert - I think I read both of those things (coffee and gin) in a little book about "forbidden substances" I read long ago.
I read somewhere (and perhaps it was nonsense) that Europeans drank beer rather than water because the water supplies were so polluted and unclean. Coffee, in this argument, was credited with the Enlightenment, because people could drink it (the water was heated enough to kill germs) and actually sober up.
I could sorta believe that, but then shouldn't Turkey be the most Enlightened country on earth?
i would say that the basis of Western democracy is Judeao-Christianity. (I know I'm gonna get flamed)
which is why the coalitions attempt to impose their view of democracy on a Muslim country like Iraq is totally bonkers
Composition
Just sayin'
"And there once was quite a campaign to get people to quit drinking gin and back to drinking beer, too."
See the problem is no one has invented a Beer Latte yet.
Like your strawman "fundamentalist atheists"?
JR, kerosene and a match
How is it a strawman. A fundamentalist is someone who asserts that they know what can't be known but only believed. A liberal is someone who admits that they believe something that can't be known. It's quite a simple concept to understand and a few atheists who I know, some of them relatives, think it's a good distinction to make.
As for strawmen, have you read The God Delusion? Letter to a Christian Nation? They could corner the haymaket with those.
Robert - I think I read both of those things (coffee and gin) in a little book about "forbidden substances" I read long ago.
Tena | Homepage | 04.21.07 - 7:10 pm | #
I just finished "The Craze," a moderately interesting book on cheap gin in 18th-c England.
Crap, another summons to work. i do dislike me the 'on call' weekends.
Catch you all later, i hope. good night and good luck!
-
I don't happen to belong to any religion or profess any particular belief. I've never made a secret of that. I'm always so interested in people who profess rigorous honesty and adherence to reality who, none the less, practice distortion and dishonesty in the service of bigotry.
olvlzl, jamais cool
Subtle shot. Nice. But hey, clearly you are a fan of religion, which is fine. I'm not, and Dawkins isn't either. On the whole, in my experience, organized religion has been more of a problem than a solution. I've not found delusions to be particularly productive, whether those delusions are rooted in religion, politics, or corporate management.
No, it's like Dawkins silly idea which can't be falsified, proven, defined and which large numbers of scientists seem to think is tripe. Doesn't stop the Dawkins cultists from believing in it. Assuming that they can even understand what he means by it.
olvlzl
Oh, I understand what Dawkins meant by "meme", evidently you don't. ou are completely misrepresenting Dawkins and his views on "memes".
"Bless me, for I slept with
my neighbor's wife." "Heard it. "I want an original sin.""Oh, I'm terribly sorry." Anglicans don't have that. "Vicar, I've done many bad things." "Well, so have l."
"What shall I do?""Drink five bloody marysand you won't remember."
rorschach
When I was a kid we had the rector of our church (our meaning Mom and I) over for dinner and afterward, my dad (an agnostic and a very big two-fisted drinker) remarked often on how many martinis Father Holiday put away. And how he stayed upright doing it, too. I think Dad was impressed.
There's also a book, can't recall the title, that credits coffee for a lot of the activity that let to the American Revolution...
The basis of western democracy is private property.
But hey, clearly you are a fan of religion, which is fine. R. Manhammer, kinda red
A fan or religion? There are plenty of religions that I detest and I've never made a secret of that either. I also think that someone should know what they're talking about before they start spouting nonsense.
There's also a book, can't recall the title, that credits coffee for a lot of the activity that let to the American Revolution...
rorschach
- that sounds familiar. Hmm.
When I was a kid we had the rector of our church (our meaning Mom and I) over for dinner and afterward, my dad (an agnostic and a very big two-fisted drinker) remarked often on how many martinis Father Holiday put away. And how he stayed upright doing it, too. I think Dad was impressed.
Tena | Homepage | 04.21.07 - 7:13 pm | #
When I was altar boy, there was one very interesting mass whan one of the priests showed up and started yelling obscenities from up where the choir stood.
He "went away for a rest" after that.
"There's also a book, can't recall the title, that credits coffee for a lot of the activity that let to the American Revolution..."
Brit: God, don't those Colonials ever sleep????
Amazon drummer.
Make good snzu-snzu.
I also think that someone should know what they're talking about before they start spouting nonsense.
olvlzl
Projecting like a Cineplex.
Oh, I understand what Dawkins meant by "meme", evidently you don't. ou are completely misrepresenting Dawkins and his views on "memes".
JR, kerosene and a match
You do? Even what he said about it being a metaphore? Because that didn't seem to cohere with the entire pile of doctrine that seems to be developing around it. Memetics, and you think you understand it?
A fan or religion?
Is that like "cake or death"?
Fan, please.
i would say that the basis of Western democracy is Judeao-Christianity. (I know I'm gonna get flamed)
which is why the coalitions attempt to impose their view of democracy on a Muslim country like Iraq is totally bonkers
Moonbootica, Jog On!
Because as a historian, you know that no non-christian nation was ever democratic and that no tyrants ever justified their tyranny through an appeal to God (like maybe declaring they have a divine right to rule or something like that
Honey, nobody is disputing that - it's the blanket claim that they are alllll the same.
And that's not true. Simple.
Tena
From where I stand, the differences between xtian sects are not ready distinguished with the naked eye. And I'm not willing to expend any significant effort wading through their obvious nonsense to find the ones that are less obviously nonsensical.
Oh, and as an atheist here in Dog's Own Merkin Paradise Here On Earth, I'm a bit sick of the (largely xtian) religious bigotry that keeps atheists out of public office. Even Muslims can get elected here.
Projecting like a Cineplex.
JR, kerosene and a match
You can do better than that JR.
Lloyd's of London, the British insurance market did start at Edward Lloyd's coffeehouse around 1688
There's also a book, can't recall the title, that credits coffee for a lot of the activity that let to the American Revolution...
It wasn't the Boston Coffee Party. Actually, I think beer drove an awful lot of those Tavern Meeting decisions.
Oh, definitely.
JR, kerosene and a match
Perhaps we differ in the details but can find some agreement on a larger scale?
From where I stand, the differences between xtian sects are not ready distinguished with the naked eye. And I'm not willing to expend any significant effort wading through their obvious nonsense to find the ones that are less obviously nonsensical.
Oh, and as an atheist here in Dog's Own Merkin Paradise Here On Earth, I'm a bit sick of the (largely xtian) religious bigotry that keeps atheists out of public office. Even Muslims can get elected here.
R. Manhammer, kinda red | Homepage | 04.21.07 - 7:17 pm | #
So you've just admitted that you are too lazy to learn about the topic you are speaking about.
Okay, then.
Also: "Even Muslims"?
(I'm an atheist, and you are making us look bad, my friend.)
i would say that the basis of Western democracy is Judeao-Christianity. (I know I'm gonna get flamed)
According to the book I just read about Native America prior to Columbus, our constitution is based in large part on the agreement between the Five Civilized Tribes - as they used to call them. It's really a mixture of Enlightment Christian values and Native American ideas about personal liberty.
not a flame - just what I read.
Was the book The History of Beer?
It sounds familiar.
I'm a bit sick of the (largely xtian) religious bigotry that keeps atheists out of public office. Even Muslims can get elected here.
R. Manhammer, kinda red
Well, I am so sorry to have to break it to you but you're going about making friends and influencing people in all the wrong ways. Derision and bigotry, yep, that's going to win at the ballot box every time.
According to the book I just read about Native America prior to Columbus, our constitution is based in large part on the agreement between the Five Civilized Tribes - as they used to call them. It's really a mixture of Enlightment Christian values and Native American ideas about personal liberty.
not a flame - just what I read.
Tena | Homepage | 04.21.07 - 7:18 pm | #
This is true to an extent far greater than most people know.
Well, I am so sorry to have to break it to you but you're going about making friends and influencing people in all the wrong ways. Derision and bigotry, yep, that's going to win at the ballot box every time.
olvlzl, jamais cool | Homepage | 04.21.07 - 7:19 pm | #
Is somebody running for office?
Beer, one of the most popular and oldest alcoholic beverages
SpongeBob... NoPants... honey?
.
Is that like "cake or death"?
Fan, please.
rorschach
No, that's like I've got trouble with that finger. It's put a cramp in my playing career. "cake or death", you mean we can't have both?
death cakes?
The beer I had for breakfast wasn't bad.
I think I shall have one more for dessert.
This is true to an extent far greater than most people know.
rorschach
I am so glad to hear that - you *would* know. It just sounded perfectly reasonable when I read it and there is a lot evidence.
"SpongeBob... NoPants... honey?"
I bet you are getting some weird looks from LE and Curley about now.
'Tis extolled for drying up the Crudities of the Stomack, and for expelling Fumes out of the Head. Excellent Berry! which can cleanse the English-man's Stomak of Flegm, and expel Giddinesse out of his Head.
You can do better than that JR.
olvlzl
You are projecting. You've produced nothing but unevidenced assertions, strawmen, and insults.
Theh you say I'm the one doing it.
That is projecting.
Is somebody running for office?
Blah
Apparently. He doesn't seem to realize that you've got to get the most votes to win and people don't tend to vote for people who make fun of them. D and H have the same misunderstanding of democracy.
I am so glad to hear that - you *would* know. It just sounded perfectly reasonable when I read it and there is a lot evidence.
Tena | Homepage | 04.21.07 - 7:21 pm | #
I blame miriam for my knowledge of this subject, for the most part.
There are many, many political cartoons of the era equating the colonies and the tribes, encouraging the former to emulate the latter in confederation and democracy.
Well, I am so sorry to have to break it to you but you're going about making friends and influencing people in all the wrong ways. Derision and bigotry, yep, that's going to win at the ballot box every time.
olvlzl
Because being silent and polite has worked so fucking well.
“…Leischen secretly lets it be known:
no suitor is to come to my house
unless he promises me,
and it is also written into the marriage contract,
that I will be permitted
to make myself coffee whenever I want.”
Later, bats. Argue amongst yourselves.
Iroquois confederacy, which were influenced by the neighboring Shawnee, which were influenced by their neighbors the Cherokee, of the five civilized tribes. the confederacy actually became a basis framework for the American Rrepublic, under the Articles of Confederation and later, the Constitution.
An understanding of needs, land sustenance, and semi-nomadic paramters.
Moving within societal groups was not impossible.
Because being silent and polite has worked so fucking well.
JR, kerosene and a match
So you DO think that people are more prone to vote for you if you make fun of them and say they're superstitious idiots. Well, guess that explains your thinking.
A fundamentalist is someone who asserts that they know what can't be known but only believed.
Last I checked, that was the definition of faith, not fundamentalism. Fundamentalism is the belief that the Bible is literally inerrant, not only in matters of faith and morals but also as a literal historical record. See the wikipedia article for more details.
A liberal is someone who admits that they believe something that can't be known.
Again, I don't agree. A liberal is typically defined as one who supports freedom of thought. Progressives are a variant of liberal set who want society to improve based on actual data from, you know, reality. Not truthiness. I'm not sure where you are getting your definitions.
It's quite a simple concept to understand and a few atheists who I know, some of them relatives, think it's a good distinction to make.
olvlzl, jamais cool
Simple, yes. Correct, no, I don't think so.
Perhaps we differ in the details but can find some agreement on a larger scale?
R. Manhammer
It's just a matter of semantics, I understand what you mean, but I disllike the implication that a word with the root "spirit" might get applied to me.
Ick, newage cooties.
Thomas Pynchon:
Vigil-keepers "limp down to the Ingenious Coffee Machine, whose self-igniting Roaster has, hours earlier, come on by means of a French Clockwork Device which, the beans having been roasted for the desir'd time, the controls their Transfer to a certain Engine, where they are mill'd to a course Powder, discharged into an infusing chamber, combin'd with water heated exactly, - Ecce Coffea!".
R. Manhammer, kinda red, I don't think there's a dimes worth of difference between the Dawkins cult and religion. It's just that he seems to be the object of worship.
Derision and bigotry, yep, that's going to win at the ballot box every time.
olvlzl, jamais cool
It has worked for Republicans for over thirty years.
... throughout history the social consequences of coffee drinking have been a source of contention for rulers, clerics and citizens. While caffeine consumption has been around for at least a thousand years, coffee has only been on the scene since the fifteenth century. Once the bean found its way to the Ottoman Empire, it was initially banned in on religious grounds, put in the same category as alcohol. However, the popularity of the beverage, especially among those who sought the added concentration needed for long study and prayer sessions brought coffee to prominence. (So much so, that Turkish law gave women license to divorce their husbands, if denied their daily coffee quota.) The very first coffee shop, Kiva Han, opened in 1457 in Constantinople. ...
Suave Molecules of Mocha
R. Manhammer, kinda red, I don't think there's a dimes worth of difference between the Dawkins cult and religion. It's just that he seems to be the object of worship.
olvlzl
Then you are admitting that you don't even know what religion, or atheism, is.
i would say that the basis of Western democracy is Judeao-Christianity. (I know I'm gonna get flamed)
Not a flame, but I don't think Democracy is what the Founders expected. I think they expected republican rule of "the best." And for most of history, most Christians despised both democracy and democratic government. BUT over the years, that "all god's children" idea did seem to take over. (I think I agree with Tena, but I think the Five Nations were more inspirational for the idea that confederacy could work, at least according to a Ben Franklin bio I just read.)
I think I'll have some cake and pie and cookies with coffee.
well i'm speaking about western democracy as in no only the USA but European nations like France, Great Britain
I was not just speaking of the USA
Because being silent and polite has worked so fucking well.
JR, kerosene and a match
Hey! Not so fast, you! It worked quite well for women and black people.
What? It didn't? Really?
It has worked for Republicans for over thirty years.
R. Manhammer, kinda red
Well, you see, they've convinced their voters that Democrats are the ones who are doing the deriding and mocking. And you guys are handing them the ammunition to use against the rest of us.
since when did mentioning democracy automatically mean the USA?
It has worked for Republicans for over thirty years.
R. Manhammer, k
Now, see, that's not correct - it's truthiness. No, it has worked for them for 12 years, max. That's how long they had the majority.
The Democrats held it for the preceding 40 years.
i said 'Western Democracy', where did I say the government of the USA had a basis in Judeao-Christianity?
since when did mentioning democracy automatically mean the USA?
Moonbootica, Jog On!
So you DO think that people are more prone to vote for you if you make fun of them and say they're superstitious idiots. Well, guess that explains your thinking.
olvlzl
Yup, being so uppity as to assert that we exist and believe in the seperation of church and state makes us ignoarnat bigots.
I'm all for uppity.
It's just a matter of semantics, I understand what you mean, but I disllike the implication that a word with the root "spirit" might get applied to me.
Ick, newage cooties.
JR, kerosene and a match
Fair enough.
Then you are admitting that you don't even know what religion, or atheism, is.
JR, kerosene and a match
You know, JR, having watched you at work here I figured out that you mainly juggle words to avoid dealing with points other people make. I don't play that game.
R. Manhammer, kinda red, I don't think there's a dimes worth of difference between the Dawkins cult and religion. It's just that he seems to be the object of worship.
olvlzl
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, regardless of the facts. But I, for one, fail to see much in common between a group who ALL believe in some sort of supernatural deity, and those who have no such belief.
Well, you see, they've convinced their voters that Democrats are the ones who are doing the deriding and mocking. And you guys are handing them the ammunition to use against the rest of us.
olvlzl
So we should stop persecuting the poor republicans, because obviously the folks that have been deriding you and lying about you for years are the ojnes in the right.
Completely another topic, and all about me:
I don't know how much longer it'll be before I just smack my co-worker. If she's not asserting that 9/11 was an inside job, or talking about how she has been a Native American in many of her past lives, she's saying things like "I love Mexicans. And blacks. I'm a reverse racist."
Grrrrr....
Europe discarded slavery while the USA was still fighting a Civil War.
Colonies did use the slaves impressed/captured/freed on high seas.
"America = Democracy." Until slavery's end, and arguably until after suffrage and civil rights, Am.Dem. is a rather exceptional notion.
i said 'Western Democracy', where did I say the government of the USA had a basis in Judeao-Christianity?
Moonbootica, Jog On!
Ok - you're right. I was the one who narrowed it - sorry.
The oldest extant Democratic body is the Althing in Iceland. I don't think they were even Christians when they set it up. I'm damn sure they were influenced by Greeks - don't get me wrong.
I'm all for uppity.
JR, kerosene and a match
Well, I'm happy for you. I'm sure that you'll feel very superior as the Republicans destroy the separation of church and state.
were not
Goddamn it goddamn it goddamn it!!!!!
since when did mentioning democracy automatically mean the USA?
Moonbootica, Jog On!
Tena | Homepage | 04.21.07 - 7:31 pm | #
I daresay we have been cold-busted.
You know, JR, having watched you at work here I figured out that you mainly juggle words to avoid dealing with points other people make. I don't play that game.
olvlzl
Now with extra ad homs!
OY!
-
Completely another topic, and all about me:
I don't know how much longer it'll be before I just smack my co-worker. If she's not asserting that 9/11 was an inside job, or talking about how she has been a Native American in many of her past lives, she's saying things like "I love Mexicans. And blacks. I'm a reverse racist."
Grrrrr....
rorschach | Homepage | 04.21.07 - 7:33 pm | #
Wow, I haven't heard "reverse racist" since high school.
I daresay we have been cold-busted.
rorschach
Yep - and it was me - I started it and Moon is straight up correct.
Well, I'm happy for you. I'm sure that you'll feel very superior as the Republicans destroy the separation of church and state.
olvlzl
OK, you have suposedly "watched me here at work" enough to know exactly how I answer questions, but you have no FUCKING clue that I'm not USian.
Busted.
There's no reason to assume Iceland didn't interact with Native Americans to an extent enough to have been influenced towards democracy.
By way of the Norse expeditions to the Great lakes.
I would say this:
To argue what THE basis of Western democracy is, is rather silly. Of course there are a multitude of bases for the ideas comprising that concept, not just one, whether Judea-Christianity or otherwise.
Now with extra ad homs!
JR, kerosene and a match
No, it's how you operate.
I don't know how much longer it'll be before I just smack my co-worker.
rorschach
I suggest a fresh trout, best for light duty smacking.
Or earlier unrecorded contacts... your timetable is probably way ahead of the other one.
Now, see, that's not correct - it's truthiness. No, it has worked for them for 12 years, max. That's how long they had the majority.
The Democrats held it for the preceding 40 years.
Tena
The documentary trail leads us back to 1964 and Goldwater's loss to the beginning of the Republican domination of the US government, but that requires some digging. It's clear to most everyone that during the Carter administration, the Republicans began in earnest the practices that were used so successfully against Clinton in the '90s.
I'm not arguing that the Republicans have held a majority in the Congress that entire time. Just that the tactics they've used so successfully are based on bigotry and derision, usually of blacks and Democrats, which, for them, are basically interchangeable.
No, it's how you operate.
olvlzl
You've been busted.
I've also seen your spoor on Pharyngula.
Wow, I haven't heard "reverse racist" since high school.
Bas-O-Matic | 04.21.07 - 7:36 pm | #
I KNOW!
It makes me want to rip my own arm off so I can beat myself to death with it.
I would say this:
To argue what THE basis of Western democracy is, is rather silly. Of course there are a multitude of bases for the ideas comprising that concept, not just one, whether Judea-Christianity or otherwise.
rorschach
I agree.
OK, you have suposedly "watched me here at work" enough to know exactly how I answer questions, but you have no FUCKING clue that I'm not USian.
Busted.
JR, kerosene and a match
I don't think there's anybody in the world that is USian
Beer, one of the most popular and oldest alcoholic beverages
Moonbootica, Jog On! | Homepage | 04.21.07 - 7:20 pm | #
Moon--you might know this. Who was the Greek traveller and historian who found the Egytpians' dirty beer disgusting? Egyptian beer was apparently the consistency of porridge and filled with bits of ground grain. They didn't filter it
Busted.
JR, kerosene and a match
I haven't read your every word. I have also leared to skim things that seem futile.
"operate"?
-
There's no reason to assume Iceland didn't interact with Native Americans to an extent enough to have been influenced towards democracy.
Well, yes, there is. Significantly, an absence of indigenes.
I hate to even begin thinking about Icelandic Legal History, mostly because for my sins, one of my PhD friends specialised in it and as a result I learnt more than I ever wanted to know.
Can I mention that I've got bacon-wrapped asparagus in the oven?
I would say this:
To argue what THE basis of Western democracy is, is rather silly. Of course there are a multitude of bases for the ideas comprising that concept, not just one, whether Judea-Christianity or otherwise.
rorschach
I agree.
Tena | Homepage | 04.21.07 - 7:38 pm | #
I'll second that
i said 'Western Democracy', where did I say the government of the USA had a basis in Judeao-Christianity?
Good point, but the truth is, most of the Europeans who seemed to really push things forward, like the French revolutionaries and the 1848 uprisers seemed to be less than fond of the churches. But yeah, there's definitely something about the underlying themes of Judaism and Christianity that set the stage for this. I think you're mostly right, but certainly those ideas weren't sufficient. Some serious critics of Christianity had to step in before democracy was remotely possible.
I've also seen your spoor on Pharyngula.
JR, kerosene and a match
I don't recall ever posting on that blog. P.Z is a jerk, though not nearly as much of one as Larry Moran.
I'm not arguing that the Republicans have held a majority in the Congress that entire time. Just that the tactics they've used so successfully are based on bigotry and derision, usually of blacks and Democrats, which, for them, are basically interchangeable.
Yes, I don't deny that - but - they didn't start working for them until the preceding 12 years before 2006.
So in a sense, yes you are talking about their majority. They worked a long time on it before it paid off.
There is a new thread.
Sheets.
Owls.
Drapes.
Electromagnetic pulses.
Draco it might of been Herodotus, but don't quote me on it
"It makes me want to rip my own arm off so I can beat myself to death with it."
Reverse-amputee-eroto-phobe!
.
I'm sure that you'll feel very superior as the Republicans destroy the separation of church and state.
olvlzl, jamais cool
Your argument would imply that we are responsible for what the Republicans are doing. We are not.
Whatever I have for breakfast goes great with coffee. Otherwise I wouldn't be awake enough to taste it.
And I checked out the off-ramp ladies' web site and wikipedia entry. What can I say -- they got to hang backstage with The Edge, and I didn't. And they sure have lot of songs, I think mostly better than the one here.
Bases of democracy:
Ancient Greek and Roman societies
The bubonic plague
The rise of the bourgeoisie in the cities
Workers revolutions
Bourgeois revolutions
Native American civilizations
Judeo-Christianity
and so forth
Your argument would imply that we are responsible for what the Republicans are doing. We are not.
R. Manhammer, kinda red
You're certainly not doing anything to impede them. And if by "we" you mean all atheists, no, some atheists think you're acting like a bunch of idiots.
Yes, I don't deny that - but - they didn't start working for them until the preceding 12 years before 2006.
Tena
We may have to agree to disagree here, but I find the parallels between "The failed Carter presidency" and "The failed Clinton presidency" to be too obvious to ignore.
Destroying the Carter administration (which was pretty decent, overall) was an important success.
I'm not arguing that they were uniformly successful with the bigotry and derision technique (think Dukakis and the tank), but that it was their primary method and it worked often enough to be continued to its logical conclusion in the late '90s with the impeachment of Clinton.
some atheists think you're acting like a bunch of idiots.
olvlzl
more unevidenced assertions.
How about pointing out which numbers from his own field Dawkins got wrong.
You're certainly not doing anything to impede them. And if by "we" you mean all atheists, no, some atheists think you're acting like a bunch of idiots.
olvlzl, jamais cool
Wrong again. I am most assuredly doing something to stop them. However, I refuse to compromise my own integrity by kow-towing to a bunch of loons who believe in some mystic white guy in a bed sheet who made the earth in six days.
Moreover, each atheist has to make his or her own decision about what is appropriate, and what isn't. There is no central core of atheism, much less a "fundamental" atheism, as you asserted earlier.
How about pointing out which numbers from his own field Dawkins got wrong.
JR, kerosene and a match
Well, assuming we're still talking about his brand of atheist fundamentalism and that you haven't shifted yet again, can you point out hard numbers of those who think he's right? And if that's your standard of evidence then you'll have to defer to the much larger numbers of religious believers.
I have yet to see any contradiction to my suspicion that Dawkins is largely dependent on the cult he's gathered around himself.
He makes statements about probability that would lead you to conclude he didn't understand math basic to his own field
is not
[Dawkins got] numbers from his own field [] wrong.
I suggest a fresh trout, best for light duty smacking.
Herring.
Wrong again. I am most assuredly doing something to stop them. However, I refuse to compromise my own integrity by kow-towing to a bunch of loons who believe in some mystic white guy in a bed sheet who made the earth in six days.
Moreover, each atheist has to make his or her own decision about what is appropriate, and what isn't. There is no central core of atheism, much less a "fundamental" atheism, as you asserted earlier.
R. Manhammer, kinda red
You think I haven't heard any of this before, don't you.
I miss Madalyn Murray O'Hair, she was so much more fun that you guys.
[Dawkins got] numbers from his own field [] wrong.
Blah
Dawkins derided some Bayesians for claiming to use probability to prove the existence of God, which is, of course worthy of derision. Then he turned around and used pretty much the same standards to claim that he had proven that God almost certianly doesn't exist. He wants to have it both ways and, sorry, that just isn't how science is done. You can't have different standards of proof depending on whether or not you like the results.
His claims about the necessity of a god being evolved were even loopier, I'm kind of not going into that one becuase I felt embarassed for him.
His claims about the necessity of a god being evolved were even loopier, I'm kind of not going into that one becuase I felt embarassed for him.
olvlzl
It's not loopy, it's perfectly logical. It's the complete destruction of the watchmaker god, which is the kind of diety the Levantine religions believe in.
"That's probably why the genre is in decline. In chess terms, "the lines have been played out," with little sense of discovery." - Draco
Thank you, Draco.
That has got to be the best explanation I have encountered yet to explain why I would rather put on an old Jefferson Airplane recording that no one cares about anymore than try to find out about the good new bands.
And I like it better than the previous explanation, which was:
I am an old fart set in my ways.
Yes, I like this one much better...
It's not loopy, it's perfectly logical. It's the complete destruction of the watchmaker god, which is the kind of diety the Levantine religions believe in.
JR, kerosene and a match
It's that strawman you've been gassing on about. I don't seem to recall Dawkins making that Levantine stipuation, though I've long since sent that book back to the library. Assuming you have a copy, does he? I don't remember him making it in any of the other interviews I've seen. He seemed to think that it was some kind of logical necessity based on a purely false analogy with the science of evolution. Since even the Levantine God you bring up to confuse things is believed to not be physical and in just about all common texts without beginning or end, trying to apply any known aspects of science to her is entirely dishonest. It is the typical Dawkins appeal, music to the ears of his devotees, pure bunkum to anyone not of his cult who knows the first thing about the subject.
Oh, and that watchmaker stuff. There are theologians who rejected that a long time ago. It's also typical of Dawkins, who never bothered to master even a small part of the literature before he produced his book, that he uses an argument as phony as the one about the necessity of an evolved god. He likes that kind of thing.
Good morning all.
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