I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
impeach!
Me!
almoest
[shakes fist menancingly at dirk]
[sticks out tongue and hides behind ntodd]
[oh, wait - on second thought...]
"tongue", "behind" and "ntodd" should never be found in the same sentence.
His intentions were pure. Guess that can excuse anything.
May I just say, ew.
I must have read a different NYT piece. I read one where Ignatieff explained why he was right even though he was wrong, and all those other people were wrong even though they were right.
What r 'Intellecutals'?
There were some like me who have supported the use of military force, such as the first Gulf War or our intervention in Afghanistan,
you were wrong.
What I was GOING to say was, I really like this comment from Yglesias's column:
The last thing the "experts" want is a scorecard of their musings. There seems to be an assumption that being an "expert" is a tenured position regardless of how wrong you are on a regular basis.
I work with professors. I love 'em to pieces, but there is a mad arrogance that sometimes comes with tenure.
If being wrong is wrong, then I don't want to be not unright.
I work with professors. I love 'em to pieces, but there is a mad arrogance that sometimes comes with tenure.
I have a mad arrogance that will prevent me from ever getting tenure.
i think "intelecutals" is about right.
A week or so ago he wrote what I can best describe as a soul-wrenching mea culpa regarding his support for the war in Iraq. It's never easy for people to admit a mistake, especially when it's a several thousand word article in the New York Times magazine, and I think Ignatieff deserves enormous credit for coming clean and admitting he was wrong.
Well ain't that just wonderful. He admitted he made a mistake. I guess the hundreds of thousands of dead can come back to life now. This sentence sounds like it precedes a "but." Let's see.
But does that make him a bad person?
If he means, does this mean Friedman is a multibillionaire who doesn't know shit and cares even less about the people he uses as rhetorical props in his column, yes, he is a bad person.
I, for one, am willing to give the American people a bit more credit than to assert they were merely sheep being led to the slaughter.
how very white of you.
so, you credit them with looking objectively at the facts and deciding this was the right course? that seems unnecessarily belittling.
Ignatieff like many Americans was wrong about Iraq, but while his judgment was wrong, his intentions were pure.
Hey, wasn't there another mass movement in the 20th century obsessed with being "pure?" Hmmm, can't remember.....
Ignatieff like many Americans was wrong about Iraq, but while his judgment was wrong, his intentions were pure. He believed that advocacy for the war in Iraq was in the best interests of the Iraqi people and furthered important national interests. Clearly these views clouded him from seeing reality. He was not alone.
Well, that and, as Olbermann said about "We need another 9/11," none of the people saying that are offering themselves and their families as martyrs to the cause.
Ignatieff didn't die or get wounded in Iraq. He was perfectly happy to let others do that. His mea culpa should include apologizing to every family who lost someone, and to every wounded soldier.
Then he can start on the families of the dead and wounded Iraqis; the refugees; the torture victims. It'll keep him busy for awhile; maybe even teach him the real-world consequences of grand and sweeping policy pronouncements.
a man who thinks with his heart and dares, with a dream in each fist, to reach for the stars.
but I think a little perspective is important.
when you live in an infinite universe, a little perspective is tha last thing you can afford to have.
-- trin tragula
I have a mad arrogance that will prevent me from ever getting tenure.
Don't get tenure. It makes you wanna go out by the garbage cans and chain smoke.
The road to Crawford is paved with pure intentions.
Ignatieff like many Americans was wrong about Iraq, but while his judgment was wrong, his intentions were pure.
sitting up there in his ivory soap tower.
a man who thinks with his heart and dares, with a dream in each fist, to reach for the stars.
Sounds like a cross between Ayn Rand and Casey Kasem.
a man who thinks with his heart and dares, with a dream in each fist, to reach for the stars.
I have a cock in one fist, and a beer in the other.
Tom Friedman is another public figure who has taken significant abuse for his support of the war.
Poor Tommy. He gets a microphone to shout out his wacky views, and people are meeeeeeean!
In the run-up to the war in Iraq many on the left were rightfully exorcised about attacks on their patriotism by the Bush Administration and others. That those attacks continue today is a sad statement on our coarsened political discourse. But, yet it would be a terrible irony indeed if those who opposed the war then, were to attack those who supported it with similar blanket statements.
Like rain on your wedding day.
I have one hand in my pocket, and the other one's making a peace sign.
I have a cock in one fist, and a beer in the other.
NTodd, Fuck | Homepage | 08.18.07 - 12:31 pm | #
just be sure to remember which is which.
Tom Friedman is another public figure who has taken significant abuse for his support of the war.
When he's lost his country and his home, or maybe suffered a closed-brain injury or lost a limb...then we can talk about "significant abuse for his support of the war."
Until then: shut up.
"The first Gulf War" is a stupid phrase. The Gulf War involved an international effort to liberate one sovereign nation from the invading force of another.
The Iraq Occupation is a US invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation with the installation of a puppet government. It's not a regional conflict, it's a power grab.
Maybe we can call it "Gulf War II" if and when the surrounding nations decide to liberate Iraq from its occupying invaders.
(Atrios, please don't link to the idiots at that site anymore. They're stooopid. Is this part of the foreign policy "clerisy"?)
But, yet it would be a terrible irony indeed if those who opposed the war then, were to attack those who supported it with similar blanket statements.
'Cause, they're not pure at all, nossir, being filled with mad intentions and emergency beers. Swine!
What are the odds that consecutive comments would be Alanis Morrisette references? And to different songs, no less.
This community never ceases to amaze me.
In short, pro-war and anti-war are terms that don't necessarily do real justice to the true measure of intellectual ferment around this conflict.
Er, um, what's the phrase I'm looking for?
Oh yea: fuck you.
What are the odds that consecutive comments would be Alanis Morrisette references? And to different songs, no less.
I was thinking the same thing.
And fuck you.
What are the odds that consecutive comments would be Alanis Morrisette references?
it's ironic.
I think that what's being said here is that we don't want to throw away the baby of alleged good intentions with the pernicious, corrosive, and deleterious bathwater of these intellecutals' consistently wrong and heinously warped meritless ideas and opinions.
So by all means let's take the baby home to meet the kids, then preserve it forever in a jar of formaldehyde.
But, yet it would be a terrible irony indeed if those who opposed the war then, were to attack those who supported it with similar blanket statements.
But, yet, we were fucking right so our using such statements would be, yet, right, but, yet, you are a motherfucker.
In short, pro-war and anti-war are terms that don't necessarily do real justice to the true measure of intellectual ferment around this conflict.
Everybody knows that, in war, the intellectual ferment is the real issue, and the real struggle.
People dying and being made homeless and getting life-changing wounds....feh! The ferment of the intellect is all!
WHat are the odds that two consecutive poster would say "fuck you"?
Well, okay, pretty good. But still.
What are the odds that consecutive comments here would say "fuck you?"
Actually, pretty good ...
Coke to Moe.
This is getting weird.
it's ironic.
dirk gently, sociopathetic
A little too ironic.
We must remember that more than half of all Americans ended up supporting the war in Iraq. Certainly, many of them were manipulated by Administration propoganda about WMD and mythical Al Qaeda connections, but millions of other assessed this pertinent information and drew their own conclusions.
A-yup, them latter would be the 30% who still belieeeeeve in Bush, who thought Clinton should be impeached, who wouldn't vote for a person endorsed by a gay rights org, etc. Namely, the people we need leading foreign policy here.
What are the odds that two consecutive posters would ask about the odds of two consecutive posters saying "fuck you"?
It's really very simple. War is hell, no, the ulitmate hell for every human being caught up in it.
Therefore, you (yes, you Murkin citizen!!!) don't go to war unless you have to. Anybody who doesn't understand that isn't an intellectual, or intellecutal, or intellecutie, or whatever. They are moral and ethical garbage, splashing away in their imperialistic compost heap.
Look, the war apologists have apologized. Jesus, Inigo, what the hell more do you want?
But let's also remember that to err is indeed human - and that well-meaning people, like Michael Ignatieff, Thomas Friedman and Hillary Clinton can be wrong about something as terrible as war and still not be morally invalidated for their mistakes.
I hate days when I'm morally invalidated. Just makes me bitchy.
as to the 50%+ emericans who thought war was a good idea: well, ok, eunt culpa.
but how often does a paid expert have to be wrong before he isn't an expert anymore???
Therefore, you (yes, you Murkin citizen!!!) don't go to war unless you have to.
Ignatieff's a Canuk.
What are the odds that two consecutive posters would ask about the odds of two consecutive posters saying "fuck you"?
Moe Szyslak
Using essentially the same wording, no less.
Pretty soon we're all going to menstruate at the same time of the month.
eunt? is that right? my latin is rusty but i think it should have been "eus".
I hate days when I'm morally invalidated. Just makes me bitchy.
For that, I take Clerisy™. Just 2 little pills, and I'm morally valid again!
WHat are the odds that two consecutive poster would say "fuck you"?
I completed an online survey about political blogs. One of the questions was about whether "uncivil" discourse was ruining, like, everything. Can't believe they'd even ask something so stupid--this was a university run survey.
Pretty soon we're all going to menstruate at the same time of the month.
Um...contrary to popular belief, I ain't a girl.
If he means, does this mean Friedman is a multibillionaire who doesn't know shit and cares even less about the people he uses as rhetorical props in his column, yes, he is a bad person.
Nice.
Friedman continues to maintain he was correct, doesn't he? Because of some silly horseshit about Iraqis craving regime change and some more horseshit about flowery democracy and all?
I wouldn't put the boy on any list that contained the best and the brightest...
You know what would have pushed this essay into the realm of literary greatness? If Ignatieff had ended this paragraph with: "The game usually ends in tears-- the tears. . . of a clown." I don't know why, but that would have made me really happy. I guess because I love that song? Do you think there's a chance Ignatieff actually did consider ending with ". . . the tears of a clown," but then deleted it, saying, "They wouldn't understand. . . they're not ready yet"?
Ree's smackdown is a thing of beauty.
It is truly time we all loudly express to our representatives and senators our complete disgust at their inability to accomplish anything since being returned to power. They have done nothing to extract us from the war. They have done nothing to improve our environment. They have done nothing to increase our global competitiveness through better education, through less expensive healthcare, and through modernized modes of production. What about gay rights? Civil rights? They can't even get a budget passed. If we get nothing from our party, then we may as well be with the republicans. At least then we have lower taxes--admittedly, not much lower unless we are the super rich but its still something more than the democrats can deliver.
i have been a lifelong democrat--ok, I wavered under Carter but for good reason--he truly was not a good president even if he is a good man. But I have had it with this group and am almost to the point of leaving this party entirely.
if they could get even one thing of importance done for this country? just one thing that shows that they want to do something other than increase the hatred for bush. we already hate bush. now we need policies to be passed and implemented.
Mutual orgasms would be fine by me, however.
There be undisclosed seafood posting.
Jesus, Inigo, what the hell more do you want?
NTodd, Fuck | Homepage | 08.18.07 - 12:37 pm | #
hello. you killed my father. prepare to die.
Ignatieff like many Americans was wrong about Iraq, but while his judgment was wrong, his intentions were pure.
Yep. There it is. He was wrong BUT he was a good person and meant really well. He supported a war based on theory. It was an intellectual exercise for these people. So he has not admitted he was wrong and you're still carrying water for these people, Shadi.
For that, I take Clerisy™. Just 2 little pills, and I'm morally valid again!
I can't take the side effects. I get a massive headache, and feel like tuning in to Melanie Morgan.
It is truly time we all loudly express to our representatives and senators our complete disgust at their inability to accomplish anything since being returned to power.
Suggestions welcome here.
Um...contrary to popular belief, I ain't a girl.
NTodd, Fuck | Homepage | 08.18.07 - 12:39 pm | #
sexist.
Ignatieff like many Americans was wrong about Iraq, but while his judgment was wrong, his intentions were pure.
adolf was a true believer in the glory of the fatherland.
his intentions were pure.
"The game usually ends in tears-- the tears. . . of a clown."
The sheer awesomeness--I weep!
I completed an online survey about political blogs. One of the questions was about whether "uncivil" discourse was ruining, like, everything. Can't believe they'd even ask something so stupid--this was a university run survey.
tikistitch
They need to see one of my new blogcards.
Blast Off! is a "Certified Uncivil Blog." 
(That's thanks to NTodd, to whom I send a heartfelt "Fuck you!")
NTodd--
For starters, we get an internet group designed to go after longtime Democrats who are doing nothing. Henry Waxman--my own Congressman--is actually someone who needs to feel a bit of fear (along with Feinstein and Boxer for that matter). You find and support those who have an actual shot of winning--not a Ned Lamont who never had a chance of defeating Leiberman. And you scare the shit out of some of these Democrats.
Blast Off! is a "Certified Uncivil Blog." (That's thanks to NTodd, to whom I send a heartfelt "Fuck you!")
Ha! Fuck you! Fuck NTodd. God fuck us, every one!
But I have had it with this group and am almost to the point of leaving this party entirely.
unlike the republicans, the democrats aren't always a "cohesive group." which is ultimately a good thing.
don't throw the babies out with the bathwater
In short, pro-war and anti-war are terms that don't necessarily do real justice to the true measure of intellectual ferment around this conflict.
In short, stringing together words like "intellectual ferment" and "foreign policy clerisy" makes us really serious pundits, you know, really serious.
In short, stringing together words like "intellectual ferment" and "foreign policy clerisy" makes us really serious pundits, you know, really serious.
billy b - funked up | 08.18.07 - 12:45 pm | #
that and the paychecks.
If I seem edgy I want you to know
That I never mean to take it out on you
Life has it's problems and I get my share
And that's one thing I never meant to do
Because I love you
Oh, Oh baby don't you know I'm human
Have thoughts like any other one
Sometimes I find myself long regretting
Some foolish thing some little simple thing I've done
But I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood
dirk--it isn't about cohesion. it's about doing something, anything, other than endless investigations that will go nowhere and on an administration that is almost over. Christ, just one meaningful bill would be nice. And providing more subsidies to farmers when food prices are at an all-time high does not qualify for good legislation. Nor does wanting to open up trade with Castro's Cuba but denying Uribe's Colombia an FTA.
For starters, we get an internet group designed to go after longtime Democrats who are doing nothing.
You might want to defeat the other side before purging your own ranks. We have a lot of work to do and demanding ideological purity isn't work.
At moments, while not cringing, you might giggle
At how these wankers daily try to wriggle
Like lizards out of what we know for sure:
That they were wrong -- that's it, there's nothing more.
Christ, just one meaningful bill would be nice.
there are some - but there is also no escaping the obstructionist republican senate or the veto pen that chimpie finally found under his desk.
here's a good one
here's another one
Christ, just one meaningful bill would be nice.
A minimum wage bill raising the minimum wage would be meaningful to some people.
"(Bush) had led a charmed life, and in charmed lives warning bells do not sound. . . . People with good judgment listen to warning bells within. . . ."
A nice example of dramatic irony in real life. It's clear that Ignatieff doesn't see that this applies to him as well.
Snow--I disagree. If there is one thing we can learn from the religious right--and there is only one thing--it is to make sure the politicians understand that they will lose our support if they are not effective for our agenda. The Democrats know that we hate the Republicans so much that they, themselves, don't feel they need to be responsive to their base. We need to let them now--through a few select elections--that they better get their act together.
Jeebus indeed - the press elitism put their personal opinion above the facts. ALL THE FACTS in exchange for complete hearsay and gossip.
Those so called intellectuals can't even crack open a book about the Ottoman Empire. They had no understanding at all of the Mideast, they just wanted to Americanize Iraq - no required understanding of the culture, the history, the people.
Wasn't it Ex-General Anthony Zinni who said "if we go in there (Iraq) we won't be coming out?" No doubt a student of history.
The Bushism plan to have NO plan, NO post-war plans at all, none to speak of, so the Friedman's of the world are merely neo-cons - it was all going to be flowers and candy - anyone with a different view was what? A real intellectuals vs people who just make up their own reality, like Friedman and his counterparts?
They didn't care what the truth was and they NEVER let it get in the way of their opinion.
"supporting wars other people's kids have to fight and wanting to send every job overseas makes you a great American"-Michael Cohen
For those clicking through, be sure to check out the comment of Dan Kervick, who provides an excellent fisking on Ignatieff.
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