I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Frist!
Plum!
My bro didn't go to college. He's an electrician. Makes a good living and is most definitely not a Loser (or even a Looser).
i've recently seen job postings from the mta for electricians on the subways. i don't recall ever seeing that before.
Like most stuff in US News, this story is basically bullshit. You don't have to pay $100 an hour for a plumber.
If a plumber's bill is a hundred bucks for decrudding your drains or whatever, it's because it took the guy two hours to get there and back for the hour's work. You saw him for an hour, but for him it was half a day shot.
It's the plumber. I've come to fix the sink.
Why shouldn't people be interested in college for a liberal education, even if they intend to work as plumbers or whatever else the want to do? Atrios is showing snobbery.
I've left my brilliant bon mot downstairs and I'm not bringing it up, no matter how you beg.
not a snob, and not against people getting education for education's sake at all, but it's very expensive and time consuming.
I saw myself as first
I tend to agree. I didn't find Knocked Up very funny at all. Superbad was OK, but mostly because I find Michael Cera to be hilarious. George Michael Bluth FTW!
I don't get the Apatow hype.
Barbarism Begins at Home | 12.22.07 - 11:59 am |
Was he involved with 40 Year Old Virgin?
To be clear, I don't think one needs to graduate from college to avoid loserdom. That's my whole point! It's just that in our society it's become an entrance ticket to a lot of careers even when the education you get in college isn't really training for those careers.
Thank you for saying that.
As a non-college graduate, I think that sums up my feelings to a tee.
It's the plumber. I've come to fix the sink.
JeffCO
You're not the plumber. You're that nasty land shark!
Oops. This isn't about Plum. My bad.
Plumbers and locksmiths must have decent incomes. I don't mean filthy rich, but they often have clients who are desperate.
Vonnegut saw it coming way back when, i.e. Player Piano, where pretty much any job other than filling potholes requires a graduate degree.
(Why else do you think you have to pay $100 an hour for a plumber?)
'Cause you're too stoopid to buy your own pipe wrench?
It's the plumber. I've come to fix the sink.
JeffCO
You're not the plumber. You're that nasty land shark!
res ipsa loquitur
"....uhm. Jehovah's Witness!"
*"non-college graduate" = three months of college
I'm doing just fine working in the credit indus...
Wait.....
Re college-requring jobs ...
A friend in sales was hiring. The jobs do not require a college degree. But this dumbass comes in with "Northwestern Univ. -- BA" on his resume. The friend hires him. He starts work. He's selling up a storm. Now HR does his background check. Whoops! No Northwestern (or any) BA. Because he lied, they make the friend fire this poor schmuck.
We used to have a plumber on these threads (smalfish).
Because he lied, they make the friend fire this poor schmuck.
res ipsa loquitur
?
I thought you said the job was in sales.
Was he involved with 40 Year Old Virgin?
Buckeye, Dealer of Rare Coins | 12.22.07 - 12:04 pm | #
Was he? I confess I never saw that one.
RIL, that makes so much good business sense. BA not required, selling like a champ; fire him because he lied to us.
"....uhm. Jehovah's Witness!"
SteveLG | 12.22.07 - 12:05 pm | #
are you sure you don't want to sell me encyclopedias?
We used to have a plumber on these threads (smalfish).
Really? I thought he was just a general contractor.
not a snob, and not against people getting education for education's sake at all, but it's very expensive and time consuming.
Atrios
And the likelihood of getting an actual... uh, you know, "education" isn't all that great.
BA not required, selling like a champ; fire him because he lied to us.
Or, popped the piss test for weed. Definately got to fire the rotten bastard then.
not a snob, and not against people getting education for education's sake at all, but it's very expensive and time consuming.
Atrios
That's the corollary problem: The idea that going to college for an education, rather than job-training, is wasting four years and X thousands of dollars. I don't know how many times I heard "I'd love to major in ________, but my parents will only pay for ______________.
There was a while back in the late 70s when I finally decided to go out into the real world when I couldn't find a job because I had too much education for some jobs and, of course, not quite the right education for others.
We used to have a plumber on these threads (smalfish)
Whatever happened to him? Did he just need a break or did he leave for good?
Nope, he was a plumber.
You're underestimating the life lessons learned through beer-pong and Top Ramen.
Snow,
The story would make even more sense if you knew which borg it was.
So let's see--35 years of Republican rule and the gap between rich and poor is at its biggest in a generation and real wages continue to take a hit. Why would I want to vote Republican then? Wait! Look over there! Menacing negroes! Jesus is coming back! Brown peoples!
"Indeed, it is central to my point" is quickly entering the lexicon.
I'm a college grad, and six years later, I've yet to work in a job that requires one. I am seriously considering going to electrician school or something similar- the jobs pay great, and, as was said, won't be offshored anytime soon.
College to me was more social education than career training. Not that I intended that going in, but looking back, that's what I see.
And trust me, Snow, friend did not want to fire him, as she was taking a piece of every sale. It was borg policy ...
I'm a college grad, and six years later, I've yet to work in a job that requires one
i've only got one year as a drama major, and been cto for three companies. odd, isn't it? but i have been passed over for jobs at or below the level i was alredy doing because i lack a degree.
Meh. The groceries aren't gonna go buy themselves.
If I'm not back in a couple of hours send out the St. Bernards.
"I am seriously considering going to electrician school or something similar- the jobs pay great, and, as was said, won't be offshored anytime soon."
they're also physically demanding, and the job politics are as bad as anything in the corporate world.
(16 years in building maintenance)
IT professionals make more than airline pilots and your life depends on the airline pilots. Although I have heard some stories about atriots who couldn't get online jumping out of windows.
It's probably way too late to introduce into the US the European "apprentice" system, including serious education in your field, Not that it too doesn't have its problems in a globalized world. But we desperately need really competent, really educated specialists in hundreds of fields, everything from baker to plumber to candlestick maker (well, how about electrician?). They need our respect, good wages, and first-class training.
To be clear, I don't think one needs to graduate from college to avoid loserdom. That's my whole point! It's just that in our society it's become an entrance ticket to a lot of careers even when the education you get in college isn't really training for those careers.
Thank you for saying that.
As a non-college graduate, I think that sums up my feelings to a tee.
Zap Rowsdower | Homepage | 12.22.07 - 12:04 pm |
My Chicago b-i-l got his CDL when he turned 18, and when he was 21, his dad helped him start his own little trucking company.
My sister has a few college accounting classes, and does the basic accounting and billing.
They're doing just fine.
I think it helps that they've both been blessed with good luck and common sense.
i think the ideals of liberal education are great, but they frankly aren't the reason most people go to college.
The Magliozzis are long-time car mechanics. Ray Magliozzi has a degree in general science from MIT, while Tom has an undergraduate degree in chemical engineering from MIT and an MBA and DBA from the Boston University Graduate School of Management.
I went through the apprenticeship process via a local union to try and become a plumber back in the day.
Got on the waiting list, but scored lower because of the math testing.
I agree with this, also that I think the whole '4 year college screw around taking classes in subjects you may not even be all that interested in' strikes as a bit of an anachronism.
i was an electrician once too (shipyard maintenance) without any education for that either. just a nack for it, and an uncle who was the foreman.
btw, $100 does not equal $4,000/week. especially for the self employed.
tweedles, how to explain the journeyman attire? I love it when one of those guys walks by, it's so "olde world." American guys would probably find it teh gaii, which is unfortunate.
i think the ideals of liberal education are great, but they frankly aren't the reason most people go to college
And, most universities tend to offer a number of courses entirely unrelated to the field of endeavor you choose.
they're also physically demanding, and the job politics are as bad as anything in the corporate world.
(16 years in building maintenance)
Uncle Blodge, Urban Teacher | 12.22.07 - 12:12 pm | #
Oh, I realize this, but the idea of actually making something work is appealing. After years of shuffling around spreadsheets and powerpoint slides, none of it seems very satisfying, or meaningful. At least being able to look at a building and say, "I helped build that" would be kinda nice.
Although I have heard some stories about atriots who couldn't get online jumping out of windows.
Ron Pauliac | 12.22.07 - 12:13 pm | #
only from the first floor.
We used to have a plumber on these threads (smalfish)
Whatever happened to him? Did he just need a break or did he leave for good?
Grand Duchess Marcellina
Google tells me that he was stil here on Feb 19 of this year.
She seems to say something stupid almost every day now.
Not that I want to defend her, but I think the media has a little to do with it. Look at the way Edwars was footed in mouthed.
smalfish | 02.19.07 - 6:35 pm | #
Thanks for the socks, smalfish. I feel better now...and there's nothing more alluring than a naked woman wearing black socks, right?
Schwing!
smalfish | 02.19.07 - 6:35 pm
It's probably way too late to introduce into the US the European "apprentice" system, including serious education in your field,
As with so many things in this country, it's only too late because we're stuck in the very American notion that the solution will be found in timidly tinkering around the edges of the existing system (See health care, see also bipartisanship)
. But we desperately need really competent, really educated specialists in hundreds of fields, everything from baker to plumber to candlestick maker
MORE BAKERS!!
College is not supposed to be vocational school. Its job is to finish your education, not to prepare you for a career. (By contrast, graduate school is typically much more focused on a particular field of study, and thus of endeavor.) People should go to college to get a better understanding of why the world is the way it is. This is why college, like high school, should be publicly funded.
Then, after you've got your BA, by all means become a plumber or carpenter - or go to law school if you prefer.
It's probably way too late to introduce into the US the European "apprentice" system, including serious education in your field, Not that it too doesn't have its problems in a globalized world. But we desperately need really competent, really educated specialists in hundreds of fields, everything from baker to plumber to candlestick maker (well, how about electrician?). They need our respect, good wages, and first-class training.
tweedles | 12.22.07 - 12:13 pm
I've joked to my friend-41 years old, hates office work, sporadic employment, that she should go work for one of the tool and die companies in the dayton area.
She'd earn a very, very decent wage. I'm just not sure she can handle it physically.
"in our society it's become an entrance ticket to a lot of careers even when the education you get in college isn't really training for those careers."
My ex BIL learned enough about computers as a hacker to get a job working for wells fargo as a computer security consultant paying about three times what I make as a teacher - and he doesn't have a high school diploma.
granted he's the exception...
And, most universities tend to offer a number of courses entirely unrelated to the field of endeavor you choose.
Barndog, not fishing
i took a course in dulcimer building.
Seven years of college down the drain...
My 19 YO son is an apprentice plumber. He decided that he didn't want to pay outrageous college tuition or go into debt to attend. A friend of his suggested that he go to work as a union plumber with him. Son works nights on a 10-12/7 shift. With overtime he has been pulling down 0ver $1400 per week.
He has gotten interested in non-destructive testing, and several other good trades. He lells me that welders rule the world as far as jobsite heirarchy goes.
When he first floated the idea of getting out of the B&B kitchen and going into this trade I told him the same thing Atrios has said. They can't outsource plumbing to Bangalore, go for it.
Then, after you've got your BA, by all means become a plumber or carpenter
I was a carpenter before I obtained my BA in Philosophy & History.
I was still a carpenter afterwards.
i took a course in dulcimer building
I took a simular course at a music festival.
How much did you pay for your, dirk?
College is ridiculously expensive. And for what? "Intro to This", "Intro to That".
With the 7 years it takes to go through college and law school, you still can't pass the friggin bar exam or frankly know the first thing about how to, you know, practice law.
Google tells me that he was stil here on Feb 19 of this year. ...
____league | 12.22.07 - 12:16 pm
I think he made a couple of appearances this summer.
I think he's got other things going on in his life, I'm trying to remember if he mentioned taking a break from here.
I was a carpenter before I obtained my BA in Philosophy & History.
I was still a carpenter afterwards.
Barndog is Jesus? 
They can't outsource plumbing to Bangalore, go for it.
of course, when the plants get outsourced there is much less need for building maintenance. thar's what happened to the shipyard where i was an electrician.
and when everyone loses their homes and moves to tent cities, they won't need plumbers either.
Barndog is Jesus?
No thanks. Too many assholes involved.
"At least being able to look at a building and say, "I helped build that" would be kinda nice."
it is.
I also had the resident of one of the houses we took care of tell me I was her hero. "When you get here I have a problem, when you leave I don't." that's nice, too.
however, the chronic pain in my elbow, hips and knees makes me wish I'd done it a little less.
I was still a carpenter afterwards.
* EARWORM ALERT *
if i was a carpenter
and you were a lady
would you marry me anyway
would you have my baby
No thanks. Too many assholes involved.
Barndog, not fishing |
so you probably aren't a proctologist either, huh?
My dear Duchess,
whoever makes all those blue overalls in Germany is a multi-gazillionaire.
Seriously, I find the professional workers in Europe so imbued with a self-respect and worth ethic that I am humbled.
These guys in the photo are journeyman tradesmen, in thier traditional garb:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanderjahre
"He lells me that welders rule the world as far as jobsite heirarchy goes."
got that right.
"At least being able to look at a building and say, "I helped build that" would be kinda nice."
once i built a tower
to the sun
nails and rivits and lime
once i built a tower
now it's done
brother could you spare a dime?
My ex BIL learned enough about computers as a hacker to get a job working for wells fargo as a computer security consultant paying about three times what I make as a teacher - and he doesn't have a high school diploma.
granted he's the exception...
Uncle Blodge, Urban Teacher | 12.22.07 - 12:16 pm
Does he have the certification?
Some companies really, really want degrees, some don't care as long as you've got the certification.
My friend, who's got all this experience, and some college, has to take those exams in order to get a job.
Well, we got a fresh coat of snlush (snow and slush), so I'd better go take care of it.
Plus, I've gotta get all dolled up for my brother's wedding.
Maybe I'll check in later from the lobby of the Minneapolis Hyatt via teh iPod Touch (not where the wedding is, but we got a room there tonight).
Later!
the chronic pain in my elbow, hips and knees makes me wish I'd done it a little less
That's why I retired. Between carpentry & rheumatoid arthritis - the disease won.
At least they can never outsource blogging.
What??
Uh-oh.
I built a birdhouse once but forgot to include a little door so's the birds could go inside,
Other than that, it was something to admire.
My dear duchess, quite apart of course from the tradition journeymen. That's a whole other trip. And tres hot, but then I'm gay.
and when everyone loses their homes and moves to tent cities, they won't need plumbers either.
dirk gently, sociopathetic | Homepage | 12.22.07 - 12:20 pm | #
I'm trying to get into a Canvas Stitching apprenticeship as we speak.
Dammit, I'm gonna be ahead of the curve for once!
I'm trying to get into a Canvas Stitching apprenticeship as we speak.
i hate to be the one to tell you, but tent cities are largely cardboard and tin sheeting.
I'm a CIPP.
and when everyone loses their homes and moves to tent cities, they won't need plumbers either.
dirk gently, sociopathetic
Looks like working with canvas could be a good skill to learn. Lucky for me that my grandfather was a sailmaker. Unfortunately he died 75 years ago.
"Does he have the certification?"
dunno - ex bil and all that.
These guys in the photo are journeyman tradesmen, in thier traditional garb:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanderjahre
Grand Duchess Marcellina | Homepage | 12.22.07 - 12:22 pm |
I think I should suggest to our maintaince department that that outfit be their new unis.
I'm sure it'll go over well.
Plastic tarps are seen alot too in tent cities.
And tres hot, but then I'm gay.
I knew I liked you for a reason! 
once i built a tower
to the sun
nails and rivits and lime
once i built a tower
now it's done
brother could you spare a dime?
dirk gently, sociopathetic | Homepage | 12.22.07 - 12:22 pm | #
*sigh*
I don't know why, but I just KNOW that's where we're headed again. It's like being in a car sliding over ice into a telephone pole. You know you're gonna wreck, but there's nothing to be done except pray you make it out alive somehow.
In Balboa Park in San Diego there's a beautiful little fountain with A plaque celebrating the working men and women who helped build that beautiful spot . . . of course it comes from the 30's (and it's not even WPA stuff, though there's nothing wrong with that.)What ever happened to that kind of respect?
Exactly.
I have a Masters Degree and an a recently retired as a union painter.
The money is good, about %35 on the check, with about another $13 for benefits. The benefits are great; plus since the benefit funds are union controlled the are closely watched by government regulators--much better than Company controlled funds.
I never had to take home a wall to paint or prep. You also get many requests to do side work for cash--not that anyone I knew would do such a thing.
Probably the best skilled trades are Electricians and Plumbers. Other trades to definately consider are sprinkler fitter (most cities are retro fitting office buildings), painter (you need a subspeciality like
faux finishing, wall cover hanging etc)
It should be noted that the days of the lazy union worker are over except in rare occasions. In the building trades at least three years a training in formal apprenticeship is standard.
Even laborers have apprenticeship programs. If you have ever worked on a job with a good laborer they are invaluable.
I would say that the in the modern economy the skilled trades are a good bet. We have an economy of billionaires and their servants, so you might as well enter the skilled trades.
My dear Duchess, we've gotta meet! Any Berlin plans?
I built a birdhouse once but forgot to include a little door so's the birds could go inside,
Other than that, it was something to admire.
Lime Rickey
That made me laugh.
Plastic tarps are seen alot too in tent cities.
You can make rather nice small houses out of shipping containers. There are some interesting sites online.
my brother was a cabinetmaker, but found he could make a better living with less hassel hanging wallpaper. which he did for 10 years or so, then decided to go to college. got an english degree and a teaching certificate from suny.
now he hangs wallpaper again, and is doing just fine.
Stonemason. Pretty much every building needs a foundation.
My dear Duchess, we've gotta meet! Any Berlin plans?
tweedles | 12.22.07 - 12:27 pm | #
NO FLIRTING!
[sorry, just jealous.]
later, batz
Back in South Hell. It was a pleasure meeting everyone last night. My voice is completely shot so I'm going to bed. I can't wait for Eschacon Redux. And I want to apologize if I was "aggressive" with anyone. I get two glasses of elitist Chardonnay in me and I take over.
Somewhere along the line, college started being"sold" as a ticket to independence from The Man. Like, "Go to college and you won't be a working stiff like me." Don't know if that was ever true, but whether or not you are independent from The Man has a lot more to do with where you start out that to whether you have a college degree.
"Stonemason. Pretty much every building needs a foundation."
stonecutter also - that's a highly skilled profession, and not a lot of people do it.
now he hangs wallpaper again, and is doing just fine.
dirk gently, sociopathetic
Not a one-armed one, I hope.
And I want to apologize if I was "aggressive" with anyone.
damn, sorry i missed it!
dirk
get in line!
"Like, "Go to college and you won't be a working stiff like me."
My father told me this many times.
Not sexual aggressive! Silly.
Stonemason. Pretty much every building needs a foundation.
Barndog, not fishing
Stonemasonry is very cool. During college summers, I worked for a contractor who built georgeous fireplace hearths. Those families enjoy his work for decades.
Dirty Jobs had a show about guys in NO who were tearing up houses damaged in the floods.
All were college grads and professionals whose jobs were lost, and now did that.
Good afternoon, friends.
Well, HERE's a way Frederick of Hollywood can scrape up some much-needed campaign funds:
DALLAS - Texas, where strip clubs have given rise to Anna Nicole Smith and many other less-generously endowed performers, is about to make it more expensive to watch a little bump and grind.
In what some have dubbed the "pole tax," the Lone Star State will require its 150 or so strip clubs to collect a $5-per-customer levy, with most of the proceeds going to help rape victims. The tax goes into effect on New Year's Day.
Club owners and some of their customers say the money is going to a noble cause, but they argue that the tax infringes on their First Amendment right to freedom of expression, that it will drive some bars out of business and that it unfairly links their industry to sex crimes.
"We'll be fine. I've already stopped advertising, and we're raising our cover charges. But this is going to kill some of the smaller clubs," said Dawn Rizos, who with her husband runs The Lodge, a Hemingway-inspired place that has exotic animal heads on the walls and is packed after Dallas Cowboys games at nearby Texas Stadium.
The strip clubs are suing to block the tax, which state officials estimate will raise more than $40 million a year, based on liquor sales figures. If accurate, the estimate suggests at least 8 million people a year go to Texas strip clubs to get a lap dance or watch women pole-dance in a G-string.
Supporters of the stripper tax say they are not out to close the clubs _ that would just mean less money for victims of sexual assault.
Not a one-armed one, I hope.
Lime Rickey | 12.22.07 - 12:30 pm | #
no, although he did cut off two fingers and a thumb with a tablesaw once. they were reattached, but that's another reason he left cabinetry for wallpaper.
A high school diploma used to really mean something when I was young. Now, because high school students are unmotivated, real learning gets put off until college.
These days even jobs, in government, say, that didn't used to require a high school diploma now require a masters in business administration.
In the old days, being a teacher required only 2 years in normal school beyond high school. Now you need several years beyond a bachelors.
In the 1940s college professors were sometimes hired with only a BA -- with the understanding that they would complete a higher degree in due time. People rose to the occasion and learned on the job. Now young people are given the message that no matter how many ever-higher hurdles they manage to cross, they are never good enough and will never measure up.
I don't have a solution, because I think in a democracy the more educated people, probably, the better. If large parts of the citizenry have college educations that is probably a good thing in the aggregate, but probably has nothing to do with the job market.
I will say that not all that long ago, Finland decided to put all its effort and money into seeing that the entire population has a superb education up to 10th grade; now they consistently score the highest in the world in education, year after year. They also invest the most of every country in clasical music, and have many serious composers. I don't know what percentage go to college in Finland. Probably a high one. But they appear to have move the emphasis on really educating people, not merely credentialing them.
Not sexual aggressive! Silly.
Monica_A: Perplexed |
oh.
never mind.
Afternoon, kids.
Just a drive-by blogwhore on this train wreck of a Jeri Thompson interview.
"Not sexual aggressive! Silly."
you just wasted a chance for free wine for the rest of your life.
"Just a drive-by blogwhore on this train wreck of a Jeri Thompson interview."
Hope her airbags deployed.
tweedles, not right now, but I have friends in Berlin and hope to be able to get there sometime next year. I promise I'll let you know!
I have to get going, be back in a few hours.
dirk, go find mrs.g!
"It's somewhat heretical to say, but I'm one of those who thinks that too many people go to college"
I didn't go to college....and I think I'm a helluva lot smarter than the individual in the White House.
I know people with all sorts of Masters Degrees who have no common sense...or street sense.
I'll make my regular pitch for linemen. Most utilities are desperate to hire them. Generally union jobs. Not going to be outsourced. Hard work in sometimes bad weather, but pays relatively well.
that's another reason he left cabinetry for wallpaper.
But the paper cuts are a bitch!
no, although he did cut off two fingers and a thumb with a tablesaw once. they were reattached, but that's another reason he left cabinetry for wallpaper.
dirk gently, sociopathetic
Ouch!
My bro didn't go to college. He's an electrician. Makes a good living and is most definitely not a Loser (or even a Looser).
res ipsa loquitur
Same with MY brother.
Back in his Calpundit days, Kevin Drum had a thread about how much of the 30-to-50-year-old population has actually graduated from college. (For obvious reasons, including adults under, say, 25 or over, say, 60 would drag that percentage down.) It's impossible to determine precisely, but if you look at various indices it's pretty clearly a tick or so over 30%.
Drum -- and he's a smart guy -- refused to believe this, thought the percentage was much higher, though how high he couldn't say. Obviously, it isn't; no one who's looked into it estimates more than 35%. But I think his delusion is more the rule than the exception.
Oh, speaking of blog-whoring, I'm supposed to remind you all that there is now hotel information (including info on discounted rates) now available at the EschaCon08 bloggie.
Seven years of college down the drain...
racymind
Education should be encouraged and low cost or free. We don't want want uneducated plumbers who think George Bush is a good president.
Hi, Monica!
What's your gravatar?
I met one recently. A nice guy and good plumber who watches Fox News and still thinks Bush is the best.preznit.ever.
Stewie Griffin as the devil.
All were college grads and professionals whose jobs were lost, and now did that.
Culture of TrÜth |
i had an indian gentleman working for me some years ago who had been a nuclear engineer in bombay. once he came to the u.s. he cou;dn't get a job - not qualified to compete with m.i.t. grads, but any other tech job he'd be passed for being overqualified. "he's a nuclear engineer, he'd never stay inthis job!"
so he worked at mcdonalds and such for years until i hired him. even then, all i could really offer was running cables and monitoring the network. at which he did a great job.
I will say that IMHO everyone -- plumbers, electricians, nannies, waiters -- everyone could benefit from a liberal arts education, in a way that has nothing to do with getting a job. I would love to see that provided free to anyone who wants it.
Monica_A! Lady, it was a pleasure to meet you!
And I got to meet the Ouzo Stallion!
Yeah, like my son. He graduated from college in 2006, and quickly got a job as an Asst. Supt. at a commercial construction company. He didn't pick up the skills needed to do this job in college (U of Miami-cue the football jokes), but his employer wanted the position filled by a college graduate anyway.
It's probably way too late to introduce into the US the European "apprentice" system, including serious education in your field, Not that it too doesn't have its problems in a globalized world. But we desperately need really competent, really educated specialists in hundreds of fields, everything from baker to plumber to candlestick maker (well, how about electrician?). They need our respect, good wages, and first-class training.
tweedles |
The Reich wing is doing everything it can to destroy the only organizations in this country doing what you propose. The construction Unions are on this concept like weird on Michael Jackson. To be a Fire Sprinkler fitter
requires 10,000 hours of hands on experience and five years of night class instruction. We make $39(soon to be 40) per hour, plus $5.00 per hr going into a stock based, tax defered fund, a defined benifit pension, and great medical coverage, all paid for by the employer. It costs the employer a little over $50 per hr. to put us on the job, he charges $100.
Ain't capitalism grand!
Sorry I've been out of touch lately,
my new I-Pod made my Alienware crash..
My son and his techie buddy just got me goin' again. Merry Holidays everyone!Even those who dwell under the bridge.....
Why shouldn't people be interested in college for a liberal education, even if they intend to work as plumbers or whatever else the want to do? Atrios is showing snobbery.
bob
And jack is showing his assholery.
"Stonemason. Pretty much every building needs a foundation."
stonecutter also - that's a highly skilled profession, and not a lot of people do it.
Uncle Blodge, Urban Teacher |
12.22.07 - 12:30 pm | #
I have a friend who is a stone mason. Can't ever get him on the phone as he is soooo busy all the time. One thing is that lot's of these trades are itinerant.
Said friend works all over TX, wherever there is a job. His back and knees ae shot too. But, he does beautiful work. built his own house and you can just see the precision and care. He went to a quarry nearby and got blocks of stones with fossils in them which he interspersed among the regular limestone blocks of the walls. It's simple yet stunning.
Just wait until the creation of the American College of Bloggers. They will call it Desktop Journalism or something. Then it will become respectable and be taught in college. Like Plumbing.
it's been pretty stable over the past few decades. About 30% of people have 16+ years eduation.
dirk, go find mrs.g!
Grand Duchess Marcellina
she's either at work or another missing white woman. and i won't know until late tonight, she won't be home before i leave for the show.
i just hope she's in bed when i get home.
Obviously, it isn't; no one who's looked into it estimates more than 35%. But I think his delusion is more the rule than the exception.
Well most of the people that he knows likely do have college degrees and it's v. difficult not to assume that your experiences are the norm.
Hope her airbags deployed.
I believe they come pre-deployed, in her case.
stonecutter also - that's a highly skilled profession, and not a lot of people do it.
But..they let Homer join with no training at all!
KagroX of Daily Kos would most like to have a beer with Mitt Romney.
His reason cost me a monitor:
Of course, as a Mormon, he won't have that beer, which means I get both of them.
Ouzo thought you guys were wonderful. He's gushing about you to my father-in-law right now. All the way back to the hotel he just raved. You're all smart and funny.
...to clarify, 30% of people in each age cohort of appropriate age over the past few decades
The European system begins selecting and shunting people off into different avenues fairly early, and some feel trapped, constrained and undervalued by it.
Yes, too many people get to go to college. God forbid Atrios's kids should have to compete with lower income kids for jobs!
Go fuck yourself.
Education should be encouraged and low cost or free. We don't want want uneducated plumbers who think George Bush is a good president.
Ron Pauliac | 12.22.07 - 12:34 pm | #
interesting and true. i wonder what ron paul's position on this would be, since he wants to abolish taxes and the department of education?
maybe the free market will somehow create a free education system, but somehow i don't think there is much money in that.
Thanks for putting together a great evening, Res! We haven't had that much fun in quite a while. He's seriously thinking of coming to Eschacon. Off for a nap.
Gee, I must have missed the wall to wall Schiavo level coverage of the Nataline Sarkysian fiasco.
i don't have any kids.
Lineman is a good paying career...however very very dangerous. My ex built powerlines. During our 15 yrs of marriage...I knew 5 personally who died doing it and several others handicapped. It's not just electricity as a danger either, falls, objects falling, and drowning to name a few.
Ron Pauliac:
Ron Paul = anti-choice and batshit insane.
That is all.
Hec,
Sometimes I think liberals classes like intro to philosphy, etc. are wasted on teens right out of high school who are unsure about a career.
Maybe kids should apprentice or intern or just take intense pre-med or pre-law or whatever classes and when they're older read the Great Books.
i don't have any kids.
Well, there's that love child . . . .
Tradespeople are often not poorly-read; some of them are astonishingly knowledgeable in certain areas.
You may someday. This is just about protecting the privileged of your class and stopping what little egalitarianism exists within our society.
I stopped by last evening for a moment and saw a comment that NTodd had lost someone. I didn't want to ask then, can anyone fill me in?
most of the people that he knows likely do have college degrees and it's v. difficult not to assume that your experiences are the norm.
Yes; another factor is that nowadays most people enroll in college, though only about half finish.
when they're older read the Great Books.
You may be right. I've always toyed with the idea of going to St. John's when I retire.
Edwards should be able to take this Nataline Sarkysian issue all the way to the white house, assuming he can generate 5 minutes worth of corporate media coverage.
Lineman is a good paying career...however very very dangerous.
well, they do give you helmets and pads. otoh, there are a limited number of spots in the nfl, and that's really the only organization that pays well.
I was a National Merit Scholar.
I own a piano moving business, and I do not delegate the piano moving. I lead the crew. I have been doing this for 30 years or so.
I make $80-100/hr. Most of it is cash. My job cannot be outsourced.
Here are some examples of my work.
"I stopped by last evening for a moment and saw a comment that NTodd had lost someone. I didn't want to ask then, can anyone fill me in?|"
His uncle died.
NTodd had lost someone. I didn't want to ask then, can anyone fill me in?
His uncle, his father's dad passed away this week while NTodd was in DC doing activist work w/CodePink. I think NTodd's flying home today to be with his dad and grandmother.
hellkitty,
His uncle died.
anyone who looks at our nations distribution of income and says 'Gee! too many people can go to college!' isd a god damned moron.
So what if they don't automatically all get good jobs. At least they get to COMPETE for good jobs. Under Atrios's suggestion, the children of plumbers will have no option other than becoming plumbers themselves. If he doesn't see the evil in that, then there's no hope for even the best economists.
i don't have any kids.
That's not what we heard:
http://bp3.blogger.com/_Vo6z5fxM...00-h/
atrios.JPG
American College of Desktop Journalism and Blogging.
Some guy did it for underwriting years ago when he and some other guys with Ph.D.s formed the American College of Underwriters and look at all the trouble that caused. Prior to that time people thought insurance companies and insurance salesman were lower than dirt.
Plus ça change, plus cest la męme chose.
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici...%3E2.0.CO%3B2-
E
The weekend lawbots on MSNBC think if it gets to trial, CIGNA will lose big time. One of them also said, "Of course, they have to turn a profit...."
Gee, I must have missed the wall to wall Schiavo level coverage of the Nataline Sarkysian fiasco.
Bjorn,a poor young country boi
The poor girl wasn't a blastocyst, stem cell or comatose person with a family of attention junkies.
.
Here are some examples of my work.
Wow!
i think the ideals of liberal education are great, but they frankly aren't the reason most people go to college.
Atrios
I thought is was all about sex and drinking
So everybody becomes a plumber and the a plumber (skilled work) ends up making 6 bucks an hour. Outsourcing was designed to drive down wages - directly in the industries affected and indirectly in other skilled, traditionally well paying jobs
I guess he got his 5 minutes:
Edwards Says He'll Take On Big Insurance Companies
NEVADA, IOWA -- John Edwards tonight cited the case of a 17-year-old California girl who died after her insurance company refused coverage on a liver transplant to save her life as a call to action to change the current system of healthcare in America.
Nataline Sarkysian died last night at UCLA Medical Center after complications arose from a bone marrow transplant to treat her leukemia. Her insurance provider, CIGNA Healthcare, first denied the potentially lifesaving transplant, but relented after a loud public protest and outrage. By that time, though, Sarkysian passed away before the procedure could be performed.
Are you telling me that we're gonna sit at a table and negotiate with those people?" asked a visibly angered Edwards, challenging the health care companies. "We're gonna take their power away and we're not gonna have this kind of problem again."
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/
200...ry3641451.shtml
Should anyone speak with NTodd, please give him my love.
You may someday. This is just about protecting the privileged of your class and stopping what little egalitarianism exists within our society.
Soullite
I agree with Atrios. Too many people go to college that should not.
Starting with jocks.
Wow this post nails it. I am an apprenticed model maker- it took four years to finish that apprenticeship. Whenever I am asked "education", I have to mark "high school" as if pissing away four years working for peanuts and going to classes didn't mean anything.
Anyhoo, I got a great career out of it and 20 years later am making a good living.
My daughter has done very well with just a GED.
She took advantage of a loophole in the law and took the GED at 10. Went to Reed College at 11. Got bored and dropped out.
She runs FDA compliance for a large medical company. She works from home in her pajamas and gets paid for 60 hours a week but actually only works for about 4 hours.
the imortant thing to realize is that education is not the same as career training.
training prepares you for work. education prepares you for life.
but for most professions, the liberal education is a requirement to get to the training. pre-med students also get the opportunity to learn history, music, philosophy, etc. why don't plumberes and auto mechanics?
You go to college to learn, not to get hired.
If you go to get hired, you are wasting your time.
It's funny, Molly. Nobody seemed to mind Nancy Reagan's rather strong role in the White House.
Tradespeople are often not poorly-read; some of them are astonishingly knowledgeable in certain areas.
plantsman, bulbalicious
Self-education and intellectual curiosity.
The issue isn't one of "channeling" people too early. The Yurpeeans are wrong about that, no question. The issue is making lots of choices possible all along the line.
Are you telling me that we're gonna sit at a table and negotiate with those people?" asked a visibly angered Edwards, challenging the health care companies. "We're gonna take their power away and we're not gonna have this kind of problem again."
I'm warming up to this guy.
"At least they get to COMPETE for good jobs."
this does buy into the assumption that all the "good jobs" require a BA at minimum. they don't. the skilled trades can lead to very good jobs that, while not without drawbacks, can lead to a good life for people.
the evil isn't in them becomming plumbers, the evil is in them not having the option to become something else.
If there must be winners and there must be losers, we need a system that doesn't allow each category to be dictated by birth. Unless Atrios has a better plan for that than to expand college to as many Americans as possible he should probably shut up about this.
It's funny, Molly. Nobody seemed to mind Nancy Reagan's rather strong role in the White House.
Diane C. Barking-Mad
It's Okay If You Are A Republican.
Education should be encouraged and low cost or free. We don't want want uneducated plumbers who think George Bush is a good president.
Ron Pauliac |
You obviously haven't been hanging around Union pipe folks. My "Worst President Ever" T-shirt is quite popular. We have the occaisional dittoe-head. They are mocked mercilessly.
It's funny, Molly. Nobody seemed to mind Nancy Reagan's rather strong role in the White House.
Diane C. Barking-Mad
Except Don Regan maybe
"Self-education and intellectual curiosity."
I read plato as a maintenance worker.
tradespeople are some of the people that respect history the most.
. Unless Atrios has a better plan for that than to expand college to as many Americans as possible he should probably shut up about this.
Soullite
It's HIS blog.
College should be viewed as an enrichment to your life. Too many people go to college thinking that they're buying a credential for getting a job. This makes it no more than glorified, and very expensive, vocational training. There's no reason that a plumber shouldn't go to college, either.
I own a piano moving business, and I do not delegate the piano moving. I lead the crew. I have been doing this for 30 years or so.
I have had my pianos moved cross country and even to an island and back. And I have always sought out good piano movers, usually by calling my piano tuner.
There are people who are not qualified for college.
They should not go.
Tradespeople are often not poorly-read; some of them are astonishingly knowledgeable in certain areas.
plantsman, bulbalicious |
Homepage |
12.22.07 - 12:42 pm | #
my husband operated heavy equipment when he was a young man. It was the family occupation after they got out of the coal mines. He started working on road crews atthe age of 12 back in the 40's. Running a dragline is boring work so he'd bring the great philosophers with him to read when things got slow. He calls himself one of the few classically educated rednecks he knows.
After he turned 50 he went to college and got a degree in Industrial Technology....mostly by portfolio. He then went on to get a Master's in Education. He taught C.A.T.E. for years until the Thugs started gutting the funding.
all the bldingtrades run apprenticeship programs. Some are real comprehensive and are good for colege credit thru a local JC. The program I went thru (Ironworkers) is a four year program, costs the union more than $60K to put each apprentice thru and has a more than 50% percent drop out rate coz its HARD WORK.
If you or anybody you know wants to get into the bldng trades, join a union.
Soullite | 12.22.07 - 12:44 pm | # [kill][hide comment]
Working as a plumber/electrician/stonemason is having a good job. That's the whole bloody point of the post. If you're getting paid $40/hr, you can probably set a bit by for your kid's future education, or even your own.
I think Edwards is a pretty clear choice. Dodd seems to be running for majority leader.
Well, I've seen far too many people who go to college because they think they should,
I sort of like the idea of taking a couple of years after high school--maybe even National Service--to grow up and learn what you want to know.
Then go to school.
You obviously haven't been hanging around Union pipe folks. My "Worst President Ever" T-shirt is quite popular. We have the occaisional dittoe-head. They are mocked mercilessly.
Flint, Employed,Annoyed
As long as they don't think Ron Paul is the answer, I'm glad to hear this.
I'm warming up to this guy.
Hecate, Runnymeade Conspirator
I'm sending you flowers in my mind
I agree with Atrios. Too many people go to college that should not.
Starting with jocks.
Gomez
I wanted to make the same point, but did not know how it would be received.
Terry C, just because someone has a forum to say stupid things doesn't mean he should.
If he wants a public forum to speak from, he best get used to hearing from people who don't agree.
Too many people go to college thinking that they're buying a credential for getting a job
Um, maybe it's because many schools market it as such.
I'm warming up to this guy.
Hecate, Runnymeade Conspirator
Me too.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Perhaps Hillary and Obama are engaged in M.A.D.
Terry C, just because someone has a forum to say stupid things doesn't mean he should.
If he wants a public forum to speak from, he best get used to hearing from people who don't agree.
Soullite
And you are rude, telling the owner of the blog to shut up because he doesn't agree with you.
"Unless Atrios has a better plan for that than to expand college to as many Americans as possible he should probably shut up about this."
I think Atrios is trying to argue something different - that skilled trades should be more of an option.
I don't see what the problem is with that kind of thinking.
I'm warming up to this guy.
You may get to shake his hand.
Couldn't colleges run apprenticeship programs for young budding tradesmen? Teach 'em bookeeping and such in school, let them go out and learn as well.
I don't see what the problem is with that kind of thinking.
Uncle Blodge, Urban Teacher
I think we have someone here trying to stir up bullshit.
Trry, and atrios is rude for pissing all over the concerns of working Americans. He's rude for telling them their kids don't have a right to a dream.
hellkitty,
His uncle died.
Molly Ivors |
Homepage |
12.22.07 - 12:44 pm | #
I'm sorry to hear that.
Couldn't colleges run apprenticeship programs for young budding tradesmen? Teach 'em bookeeping and such in school, let them go out and learn as well.
Community colleges do.
Hecate, I'd like to thank you for the lovely Christmas, festivus, holiday and pick me up card...you're most kind...ty tyvm Rick Wilson
Do welfare queens need a college education?
Food stamps can get you far.
Yes Terry, because nobody is capable of honestly disagreeing with you.
I blew it in College. I had just lost a lot of weight and come out of the closet when I went, and my head was most definitely not interested in book larnin' right then. I didn't know how to get a breather to become human first, and then go back to it.
"I think Edwards is a pretty clear choice. Dodd seems to be running for majority leader."
I'll vote for whomever the nominee is.
But I'll tell you right now.
I hope it's Edwards, with Dodd a close second.
An Edwards/Dodd ticket would please me greatly.
Here are some examples of my work.
Repack Rider
That was fascinating. The arcane skills of specialty work always amaze me.
HICA!
High school graduate, reporting for duty!
.
Soullite,
So from now on you will refuse to hire any plumbers or other workers for your home or car unless they have a college degree? That's not very nice.
the evil isn't in them becomming plumbers, the evil is in them not having the option to become something else.
spend 10 years in med school and residency and what option do you have to be a plumber?
life is like walking in sand. at first, you are young and light and can skip around in any direction you like - twist and turn and choose a path. but as you go on, eventually you get heavier and start thinking of a direction, and as you walk you sink in and create a channel for yourself. the longer you follow that path, the deeper the channel and the harder to climb out and go a different way.
it doesn't matter if the path is plumbing or rocket science or whatever. the options always shrink as you go along.
Tradespeople are often not poorly-read; some of them are astonishingly knowledgeable in certain areas.
plantsman, bulbalicious
Self-education and intellectual curiosity.
Terry C - Democratic Bitch
There are also plenty of people who can put PhD after their name who have no intellectual curiosity and very little knowledge outside of their specific area. At one time I thought that to get a PhD you had to be both smart and hardworking. Then I realized that one of them could be enough. Eventually I saw that sometimes neither was really necessary.
You may get to shake his hand.
/Immediately makes reservations for Philly
That would be too cool.
Thanks for the lovely pics of the kids; it's on my fridge!
Yes Terry, because nobody is capable of honestly disagreeing with you.
Soullite
I would like to extend steve simels' invitation to you.
i'm arguing for removing the class-bias against non-college grads and their associated professions which leads to a lot of people spending a lot of time and money going to a 4 year college.
Not sure how that gets reinterpreted as making college available only for rich people or making careers hereditary.
There are also plenty of people who can put PhD after their name who have no intellectual curiosity and very little knowledge outside of their specific area.
cough*Condi*cough
This is a very interesting thread. I don't think I have run across a better conversation on the purpose of a liberal arts education. I went to a liberal arts school. I used to joke they should have taught plumbing the senior year so it did not feel like you were going off the end of a treadmill at commencement. There has been a trashing of apprentice work as union work. Some has survived. A lot of science post docs are apprenticeships.
If you or anybody you know wants to get into the bldng trades, join a union.
Tyrone Shoelaces
You raise a very important point: almost all of the construction trades are unionized.
That's why the training programs are so detailed, and that's why the pay and the benefits are so good.
"Yes Terry, because nobody is capable of honestly disagreeing with you."
Ok - I honestly think you are misunderstanding the point of the post.
Hey, Molly.
Thers was complaining about his laptop taking longer to boot up. He can try this if he's careful with it, provided he's using XP. These two utilities in the pack are safe. I use them both. They are in the memory and file system menu.
This radical, new tool is one of the best and most powerful Windows XP tweakers ever, having a few tweaks, which are unique to the program. Among them are: ultrafast boot (rearrange boot files); boot folder defragmentation
Some of the other utilities he should be more careful with or not use at all.
http://www.download.com/TuneXP/3...4-
10290928.html
i'm arguing for removing the class-bias against non-college grads and their associated professions which leads to a lot of people spending a lot of time and money going to a 4 year college.
Not sure how that gets reinterpreted as making college available only for rich people or making careers hereditary.
Atrios
Like I said, our "friend" is here to start shit with everyone.
rick,
Glad you got it! Hang in there!
I honestly think you are misunderstanding the point of the post.
Uncle Blodge, Urban Teacher
He's misunderstanding everything.
"Not sure how that gets reinterpreted as making college available only for rich people or making careers hereditary.|"
I'm not sure either - the point seemed clear to me.
Atrios, in this regard, you are the man. Each of us is a "homo faber," we just just have to find out where we do it best. And enjoy the respect of our fellow human beings for doing it.
Like I said, our "friend" is here to start shit with everyone.
Terry C - Democratic Bitc
ding ding ding ding
Ciriture, how the hell did you get that from what I said. I want ALL Americans to be able to go to college. That's it. I never said plumbers NEED college degrees. Stop deliberately misreading me. Nobody likes a hack.
Not sure how that gets reinterpreted as making college available only for rich people or making careers hereditary.
I'm not sure how trolls can string sentences together, but hey...
Couldn't colleges run apprenticeship programs for young budding tradesmen? Teach 'em bookeeping and such in school, let them go out and learn as well.
Bjorn,a poor young country boi
A well designed Community College system could provide services in a balanced and diverse way. Anyone who chooses a career that has a more directed curriculum like nursing, diesel mechanics, electronics, programing ...whatever..., should also have the benefits of exposure to the arts and literature. Why not?
Thanks, RP; he just read it over my shoulder.
And now I have to go get my cleaning helper--it's mostly done, but some things, like putting the laundry away, I just never get to.
Have a great day!
I agree with Atrios. Too many people go to college that should not.
Starting with jocks.
Gomez
We should have special colleges for Jocks.
Nerd Harrasment 101
Beer 102
Debasement(not the one under your parents' house) 101
Cultural Ignorance 101
Self worship as a way of life- Graduate Studies
Terry C, just because someone has a forum to say stupid things doesn't mean he should.
If he wants a public forum to speak from, he best get used to hearing from people who don't agree.
Soullite | 12.22.07 - 12:50 pm | #
there's a big difference between disagreeing with someone and telling them to shut up.
so why don't you just shut up?
Not sure how that gets reinterpreted as making college available only for rich people or making careers hereditary.
Atrios
That George Bush went to college should be a cautionary note in itself.
There are also plenty of people who can put PhD after their name who have no intellectual curiosity and very little knowledge outside of their specific area.
cough*Condi*cough
cough*Thers*cough
Nobody likes a hack.
Have you met Econ 102?
You should - HE thinks he's smarter than everyone else here, too.
Yes! Because it's not like I read this page every day...
or like I comment on a number of blogs from a class based perspective..
Terry, you're just a stuck up, elitist class-based bigot. You don't like to hear it, I'm sure. but that's the the truth. you don't like what i'm, saying because it challenged your lifestyle.
cough*Thers*cough
Oh, he knows a wide variety of useless stuff.
Unless Atrios has a better plan for that than to expand college to as many Americans as possible he should probably shut up about this.
Oh look, it's soullite! Glad to see you haven't gotten any fucking smarter.
cough*Condi*cough
Molly Ivors
You can just see her remora-ing her way through grad school, can't you? Sucking up to each professor as long as she needed to through each step. Same in her political career, from Gary Hart to Brent Scowcroft to Chimply. The latter two still wonder what happened to her. They still don't get that she's the same as she ever was.
There are also plenty of people who can put PhD after their name who have no intellectual curiosity and very little knowledge outside of their specific area.
And who use the title "Dr." Blech!
That George Bush went to college should be a cautionary note in itself.
At least to the value of an MBA
One thing Terry C is NOT is stuck-up!
You don't like to hear it, I'm sure. but that's the the truth. you don't like what i'm, saying because it challenged your lifestyle.
Oh, puhleeze get over yourself. How did what you say challenge her lifestyle?
That's right: not at all, and you're just trolling.
You people are pathetic. you care NOTHING about people who make less than 100k a year, so don't sit there and PRETEND you are getting the vapors over the language I use. It's fucking pathetic. You sound like all the random villagers do whenever someone shits in their punch bowl.
I can picture Condi being a suck up from kindergarten on.
She certainly didn't get where she is today through any particular knowledge or talent.
Oh, he knows a wide variety of useless stuff.
Yeah, typical PhD. You're all worthless and weak!
There are also plenty of people who can put PhD after their name who have no intellectual curiosity and very little knowledge outside of their specific area.
Doesn't P.H.D. stand for "Piled Higher and Deeper"?
it's become an entrance ticket to a lot of careers even when the education you get in college isn't really training for those careers.
Army ROTC has been this for decades. You do have to attend and pass a smattering of military related courses, but it's like 3 credit hours out of your entire course load. You do have to graduate to get a commission, but they really don't care what your degree is specifically. The USAF and Navy might be a bit different, looking for a BS instead of a BA.
The main thing is to get the diploma, then off you go into whatever speciality you're slated for...military training takes over from there.
One thing Terry C is NOT is stuck-up!
plantsman, bulbalicious
Thank you.
You people are pathetic. you care NOTHING about people who make less than 100k a year
You really don't know your audience. There are lots of people here who don't make 100k a year, dumbfuck.
And who use the title "Dr." Blech!
Exactly. "Use" the title.
Soullite was a long time commenter over at Gilliard's place, where sharp give and take were accepted and encouraged. Soullite, you're at the wrong place if you think you'll get an intelligent conversation. I miss Gilliard too.
you care NOTHING about people who make less than 100k a year
I don't care about me?
D'oh! Throw this one back, please.
.
And who use the title "Dr." Blech!
Cookie Guggleman |
My favorite: "Dr" Monical Crowley.
We are having an addition built to our house. Yesterday this huge truck with telescopic cement dropper parked in my driveway, sent the thing over my house, and did the cementing. First time I ever saw that. No wonder the boys have so much fun--bigger, better, and more expensive toys than the girls.
Terry, you're just a stuck up, elitist class-based bigot. You don't like to hear it, I'm sure. but that's the the truth. you don't like what i'm, saying because it challenged your lifestyle.
Soullite
You know nothing about me.
Fuck off.
I made more money as a truck driver (HS diploma) than I do now as an adjunct college instructor (PhD.). Then again, there is no heavy lifting, no graveyard shifts, and my head is full of marginally useful information.
Hello, all.
I've been without power/heat/internet for about 10 days. Spent four nights on someone's couch, 3 in a motel. Then the Blessed Electrician and the Blessed Power company hooked me back up. Cable/internet took a little longer. I have space heaters going until a new heat/air unit can be installed.
This will make one deeply, deeply appreciate tradespeople and how utterly dependent we all are on them and on our utilities.
Glad to be back.
I was rather on the fence about this, but I think I have made the correct choice. Even though I lack a college degree.
"Comment by Soullite blocked. [unkill][show comment]"
Welcome to Killfile, Hell.
Population: YOU!
HAW! HAW! HAW!
Soullite, you're at the wrong place if you think you'll get an intelligent conversation.
Bullfuckingshit.
We have plenty of smart people here who engage in intelligent conversation. Somebody who lobs rhetorical handgrenades and erects strawmen into the exchange should expect to get flamed. Asswipe.
I love when trolls defend one another
gotta run all...meds and nap time cyal tonight...play nice and enjoy the day...(gone) ty again Hecate
Couldn't colleges run apprenticeship programs for young budding tradesmen? Teach 'em bookeeping and such in school, let them go out and learn as well.
At my liberal arts college, there is one course for accounting. But any suggestion of other vocational courses causes deans and dead wood professors to make odd hooting noises. I once suggested having some local car mechanic friends come in to teach an short course on car repair. One religion professor said to me, "Learning is not just praxis". He also got busted by the campus police for burning incense in his office and forgetting about things like alarm sensors after he went home.
Deliberate misreading of post
Hurls personal insults at poster(s)
Welcome to my Phantom Zone.
I never said plumbers NEED college degrees. Stop deliberately misreading me. Nobody likes a hack.
Soullite
Oh, so now you WILL hire a plumber with no college degree - thereby perpetuating an evil, soul-crushing hereditary system??
For shame!!!!
Soullite | 12.22.07 - 1:00 pm | #
bwahahahahahah!!! what a fucking asshole. what a fetid pool of steaming pompous illiterate pus. what a waste of carbon molecules that could have been put to perfectly good use somewhere else.
don't get the vapors, now.
and btw, you can't really disagree with someone when you don't understand what they said to begin with.
sheesh.
you care NOTHING about people who make less than 100k a year
I don't care about me?
D'oh! Throw this one back, please.
.
Jeffraham Prestonian
Exactly. He just doesn't get it.
Yeah, typical PhD. You're all worthless and weak!
I love reverse snobbery.
You people are pathetic. you care NOTHING about people who make less than 100k a year, so don't sit there and PRETEND you are getting the vapors over the language I use. It's fucking pathetic. You sound like all the random villagers do whenever someone shits in their punch bowl.
Soullite |
"A riot is an ugly thing, and I think it's about time we had one!"
Cool! IAD cops now ride Segways! One just zipped by...
I love reverse snobbery.
Well, anybody who doesn't take an Animal House reference and run with it is beneath contempt.
Seriously, you're all arguing that too many people get ot college. And you wonder why someone might call you stuck up and elitist.
Look in the fucking mirror. That's what you are. You don't care that 75% of the population never got the opportunities that others got. You actually think someone comes here to troll you over this shit for fun? I'm sure it's easier on you to believe that I don't actually believe what i'm saying, but I do. You people are the most stuck up and snobbish left wingers I've ever met. KEVIN DRUMS commenters are more egalitarian than you are.
*To be clear, I don't think one needs to graduate from college to avoid loserdom. That's my whole point! It's just that in our society it's become an entrance ticket to a lot of careers even when the education you get in college isn't really training for those careers.
-Atrios 11:48
fly-by comment: i concur. more later...
I've seen Soulite around the tubes, always attacking, always misinterpreting, always self-righteous. I don't know if it's a deliberate trool act or if it's just goofy, but it's not worth engaging.
You people are pathetic. you care NOTHING about people who make less than 100k a year, so don't sit there and PRETEND you are getting the vapors over the language I use. It's fucking pathetic. You sound like all the random villagers do whenever someone shits in their punch bowl.
On the other hand, jackoffs like you who have serious reading comprehension problems are mocked mercilessly because most of the time they have no fucking idea at all that they are being mocked.
Wait a minute... which side is injecting class struggle into the equation? I need a program.
There are three kinds of pipe. There's aluminum, which is garbage.
There's bronze, which is pretty good, unless something goes wrong. And
something always goes wrong. Then, there's copper, which is the only
pipe I use. It costs money. It costs money because it saves money.
Cool! IAD cops now ride Segways!
They'd better be careful on the hills.
I took an Intro to Lithography course at the local CC wanting to learn where the craft had gone in the 20 years since I'd slapped down type with wax and an exacto blade -- It was cool. Many local printing firms, maybe even the unions (Chicago's a big printing town) had poured tons of money into the graphic arts program at the CC and sent lots of their people there for training -- the CC had state of the art equipment, from small to large to unfreakingbelievable. It was amazing. The class was small -- I think 12 people -- half men, half women. And the instructor was great.
It was one of the best classes I ever took.
My mother tells me that plumbers in Southern California make $150.00 per hour.
That's the same I pay my accountant here in TX. Different skill sets but the same amount of knowledge is required to do the job correctly.
Son is working on a retrofit of a power plant here. He's doing all the grinding of the weld flanges before they are tested for flaws. He tells me that these things are beign done to nuclear power plant standards and that you can't have ANY bubbles or cracks in your steam line joints for obvious reasons. Thisis really skilled work that they are doing if one considers the consequences of a poorly done job.
watertiger,
He was a fine plumber.
There are three kinds of pipe. There's aluminum, which is garbage.
There's bronze, which is pretty good, unless something goes wrong. And
something always goes wrong. Then, there's copper, which is the only
pipe I use. It costs money. It costs money because it saves money.
watertiger
Loved the credulous, chinless WASPs!
I've seen Soulite around the tubes, always attacking, always misinterpreting, always self-righteous. I don't know if it's a deliberate trool act or if it's just goofy, but it's not worth engaging.
Jim, Collieresque
I'm through answering it.
It's got ME pegged as some rich party girl with a million university degrees.
"You people are pathetic. you care NOTHING about people who make less than 100k a year"
Jeebus! Starting in January, I'll be getting by here in Boston on a little over US$750.00 a month.
Why, NTodd himself insists upon charging me for his services at cost.
I don't know if it's a deliberate trool act or if it's just goofy, but it's not worth engaging.
Jim, Collieresque | 12.22.07 - 1:04 pm | #,
yeah, at first i thought he was just stupid, but now i realize that it's more of a personality disorder.
Seriously, you're all arguing that too many people get ot college.
Seriously, you're as obtuse and ignorant and fucktarded as you were when you argued against lysistratic nonaction and called me a religious whackjob. Go fuck somebody else's pet rat, you moldy cheese-brained shitwhistle with the manners of an ostracized cockroach.
Many local printing firms, maybe even the unions (Chicago's a big printing town) had poured tons of money into the graphic arts program at the CC and sent lots of their people there for training -- the CC had state of the art equipment, from small to large to unfreakingbelievable. It was amazing. The class was small -- I think 12 people -- half men, half women. And the instructor was great.
You'd be amazed.
Gotta jet, Moonbats. Hope to chat later but, if not, enjoy the first day of Winter; it means we're than much closer to Spring!
I was kinda surprised to see what I had made this year, though.
.
Go fuck somebody else's pet rat, you moldy cheese-brained shitwhistle with the manners of an ostracized cockroach.
NTodd, Snacking Pink
I am SO buying you a drink when the bar opens.
Why, NTodd himself insists upon charging me for his services at cost.
You got a discount with the purchase of your last gift card, though. I'm nothing if not giving.
HAHA HA GA GA
Yeah, tell yourself i'm the snobby one because I don't think it's fun to make fun of poor people and I call you out on it.
that makes as much sense as when my KKK co-worker calls me a bigot for not accepting his hatred of black people as legitimate entertainment.
Or don't you know that what you sound like to people who don't already like you?
Doesn't P.H.D. stand for "Piled Higher and Deeper"?
Flint, Employed,Annoyed |
12.22.07 - 1:00 pm | #
The PHd I work with tells me it means "post hole digger"
There are three kinds of pipe. There's aluminum, which is garbage.
There's bronze, which is pretty good, unless something goes wrong. And
something always goes wrong. Then, there's copper, which is the only
pipe I use. It costs money. It costs money because it saves money.
watertiger
Monel, please.
Go fuck somebody else's pet rat, you moldy cheese-brained shitwhistle with the manners of an ostracized cockroach.
NTodd, Snacking Pink
NTodd swears like a plumber.
It is 60.8°F... I MUST scoot about, today!
.
"I should have taken a rock and killed myself years ago!"
I am SO buying you a drink when the bar opens.
I have to admit, the first thing I did when I got through security was to walk down to my favorite wateringhole. Sadly, it was closed.
So I just took some qualuudes.
Condi's a USSR expert. You can't blame her because Ronnie said, "Blow down this wall."
Now it's just plain old Russia, and she's not up to snuff on that.
Yeah, tell yourself i'm the snobby one because I don't think it's fun to make fun of poor people and I call you out on it.
Oddly, I'm squinting real hard and don't see anybody making fun of poor people.
NTodd swears like a plumber.
What kind of a crack is that?
There are three kinds of pipe.
No flirting!
It's interesting for me, because I'm poised to take shit from everywhere--from people who sneer at my doctorate (Piled Higher and Deeper) to people who sneer at my job (oh, you're at a community college. But i do good work with a generally interested and often nontraditional student population, and I love it.
I dropped out of school for a while and worked in a trade, and I found that I did a lot of reading in my downtime and thinking about things even while I was working. It was a very valuable time for me, and i can still fix shit.
btw, ntodd, sorry about your pa's brother. hope pa is holding up ok.
You really don't know your audience. There are lots of people here who don't make 100k a year, dumbfuck.
NTodd, Snacking Pink | Homepage | 12.22.07 - 1:01 pm | #
NTodd's right. psychotic, but right.
What kind of a crack is that?
Mind if I butt in here?
The husband understood.
Why, NTodd himself insists upon charging me for his services at cost.
Chris Tucker |
I make over 85 grand a year, and just the gas to get TO the Tastee Freez is breaking me.....
"You sound like all the random villagers do whenever someone shits in their punch bowl."
thank you for admitting you shit in the punchbowl.
First you misread, then you attack the women (dumb move, they'll hand you your ass) then you talk useless shit.
I make 43,000 a year. don't even try to tell me about the problems of folks making under 100k.
we could have had a debate, but you went right to trying to hit the woman. What a troll.
I will now be ignoring you - and in case you don't get why, it is not because you are disagreeing with me it is because you are acting like an asshole.
Over in Germany, they work pretty hard to determine early what people have aptitude for, and then steer them at the high school level for higher ed or trade school/apprenticeship, and they wind up with highly skilled people in the trades.
Here, there's little thought to this, as education isn't really the priority, but social conditioning and to too great an extent babysitting is the priority. Keeping teens out of the work force was once a priority, but we've got India and China for that function now...
You give those dogs another bite of my food, old man, and I'll kick you till you're dead.
W.E.B. DuBois "The Talented Tenth" has some notable lines on this topic.
"Education is that whole system of human training within and without the school house walls, which molds and develops men. If then we start out to train an ignorant and unskilled people with a heritage of bad habits, our system of training must set before itself two great aims the one dealing with knowledge and character, the other part seeking to give the child the technical knowledge necessary for him to earn a living under the present circumstances."
dirk - thanks. Dad's okay, and Gram's hanging in there. He's up there now, and one of our cousins, and her best friend, so she's being supported. I'll be heading to Maine either tomorrow or (most likely) Monday.
Oddly, I'm squinting real hard and don't see anybody making fun of poor people.
NTodd, Snacking Pink
Why, some of my best friends are poor people.
Some of them even lack private jet aircraft.
And this one
"I insist that the object of all true education is not to make men carpenters, it is to make carpenters men; there are two means of making the carpenter a man, each equally important: the first is to give the group and community in which he works, liberally trained teachers and leaders to teach him and his family what life means; the second is to give him sufficient intelligence and technical skill to make him an efficient workman; the first object demands the Negro college and college-bred men not a quantity of such colleges, but a few of excellent quality; not too many college-bred men, but enough to leaven the lump, to inspire the masses, to raise the Talented Tenth to leadership; the second object demands a good system of common schools, well-taught, conveniently located and properly equipped."
Well, batses, time to get cleaned up & go downtown. Our little church group is doing a service project today in the fog & the rain, and then it'll be party time. I'm bringing the elitist pinot noir and chardonnay. And the camera -- the kids of the group are included, and they'll be at their most angelic, or at least, at their most angelically dressed.
Later on.
Mind if I butt in here?
Don't be cheeky.
Soullite admits he wants to keep poor people down by perpetuating a class- based sytem. Sad, really.
A well designed Community College system could provide services in a balanced and diverse way. Anyone who chooses a career that has a more directed curriculum like nursing, diesel mechanics, electronics, programing ...whatever..., should also have the benefits of exposure to the arts and literature. Why not?
bill | 12.22.07 - 12:57 pm |
That's what our CC does. It offers trade classes, plus nursing, and other 'traditional' college classes.
I insist that the object of all true education is not to make men carpenters, it is to make carpenters men
I have a new motto.
Don't be cheeky.
I assed nicely!
I'll be heading to Maine either tomorrow or (most likely) Monday.
NTodd, Snacking Pink | Homepage | 12.22.07 - 1:11 pm | #
well, have a safe trip and as happy a xmas as y'all can.
also btw, i was going to donate to your little d.c. adventure, but then i saw the dinner pics hecate posted and figured you were doing just fine
You give those dogs another bite of my food, old man, and I'll kick you till you're dead.
"I'm confused!"
"it's become an entrance ticket to a lot of careers even when the education you get in college isn't really training for those careers."
Amen.
I assed nicely!
NTodd, Snacking Pink
how derriere you!
I35 may be holy but the devil says you can get your kicks on Route 66.
Had to get that out of the back of my head.
You give those dogs another bite of my food, old man, and I'll kick you till you're dead.
Dr. Molly Ivors | Homepage | 12.22.07 - 1:11 pm
Which reminds me that I need to request that from the library.
"so there's an accelerating shortage of skilled people in jobs that don't require college."
of late, the union here has been running teevee ads trying to lure people into trade school for ironworkers.
good gig, if you can handle heights...
That's what our CC does. It offers trade classes, plus nursing, and other 'traditional' college classes.
Is that Sinclair College?
also btw, i was going to donate to your little d.c. adventure, but then i saw the dinner pics hecate posted and figured you were doing just fine
She conjured up a nice meal for me. Hecate's been berry berry supportive in many ways, for witch I am eternally grateful.
how derriere you!
One more crack and I will smack you!
I think it was Woodrow Wilson who said his time in the WH and American politics was a peaceful respite compared to the bloodletting he saw in Academia and academic politics. I'm paraphrasing but he did say something along those lines.
Men chase women because they fear death.
One more crack and I will smack you!
leibniz | 12.22.07 - 1:15 pm | #
spank you very much.
I have a new motto.
Dr. Molly Ivors
Gets me too.
Molly, have you ever used a text titled
Read, Reason, Write?
Dorothy Seyler wrote it. Excellent section on argument and logical fallacies.
Men chase women because they fear death.
I chase women because they won't stand still.
"Men chase women because they fear death."
nonsense. men chase women because they smell good.
I can't tell you the number of students who have said to me "I never really *thought* about things before your class." That's what it's about.
Not everyone needs college to develop intellectual curiosity, but it does help some people to learn that there's a lot more to the world than their family's raving.
And it matters not whether they're housepainters or nurses or accountants. Thinking is objectively good.
I'm glute to this thread.
I don't know that book, bill, but I'll look it up.
how derriere you!
One more crack and I will smack you!
leibniz
You people are dabasing this dicussion, turning this discourse into a race to the bottom.
Tushay
Thinking is objectively good.
Ergo: you hate poor people.
QED
Thinking is objectively good.
Dr. Molly Ivors |
it's not that liberals control education.
it's that the educated become liberal.
got to go off and have an adventure. back later - smack a troll for me.
res - if you're here I'm going to try and do some pre- planning
NTodd, are you still traveling through airworld?
If so, are your flights on time?
Oops, calling my flight. l8rh9rz.
I chase women because they won't stand still.
(slips into track shoes)
You people are dabasing this dicussion, turning this discourse into a race to the bottom.
Flint, Employed,Annoyed
but ... but ... but ...
I insist that the object of all true education is not to make men carpenters, it is to make carpenters men
I have a new motto.
Dr. Molly Ivors | Homepage | 12.22.07 - 1:13 pm |
On one my librarian list-servs, one of the hospital librarians says she tells her non-librarian co-workers: It's not about keeping books in, it's about getting knowledge out.
it's not that liberals control education.
it's that the educated become liberal.
Ding ding! We have a winner!
Anybody who makes over $100,000 a year can donate money to me
I won't make $100,000 in the next two years.
I came across one girl in college who had never heard of Palestine (or Palestinians). She asked my friend where he was from, and when he replied "Palestine", she slowly said "Pakistan?" as if he would mispronounce his where he was from. We all laughed, and then looked at her face, and then my friends and I slowly said "Palestine" together, and even slower she said "Pakistan?" yet again. "Ummm, no. It's in the Middle East." "Where's that?" None of us could say anything to that.
Instead of raising the talented Tenth to leadership we have raised the corrupt wealthy to it.
i could go post on my own blog, but really i prefer to posterior.
I don't know that book, bill, but I'll look it up.
Dr. Molly Ivors
I had the pleasure of being in her class at Northern Virginia Community College in Annandale back in the early 80's. She used the first edition for that class. Last year I bought the latest edition to use with my high school debaters. I think its great.
aiiight. gotta go make the lime tartlets.
back in a bit.
I won't make $100,000 in the next two years.
Nor will I, barring that lucky lottery ticket.
"I won't make $100,000 in the next two years."
make it 4-5 years for me...
(slips into track shoes)
Dr. Molly Ivors |
[gets out the acme™ rocket shooes]
On one my librarian list-servs, one of the hospital librarians says she tells her non-librarian co-workers: It's not about keeping books in, it's about getting knowledge out.
When I worked in an academic library, I was told to regard books as cardboard objects. I used to hide out in the stacks and read.
That's what our CC does. It offers trade classes, plus nursing, and other 'traditional' college classes.
Is that Sinclair College?
leibniz | 12.22.07 - 1:15 pm
Yup.
It's a good school, though the current president annoys me.
He's gone more in to having the beginning courses have books specialized for Sinclair, so you can't get them from any library (even Sinclair's library doesn't have them).
Many students are SCC because it's cheaper, it's not fair to stick them with books that they have little choice but to buy, as opposed to borrowing from the library.
Actually, it will be 3 years until I make $100,000. Was just being modest, and not admitting how pathetic my salary is right now.
one of the little known facts in the US is that within the next 20 years we will have a shortage of 800,000 nurses. Take a look at your local community college website. Almost invariably they are advertizing for nursing instructors or instructors for radiology technician classes. This doesn't bode well for an aging population which demands a high level of services when sick. The current average age of a working nurse is 54 years old. Shortages, anyone? A lot of the openings caused by people leaving the field are being filled by immigrants from the Phillipines and other places who are paid less and have fewer skills.
Just for reference, that happened only a year after 9/11.
I insist that the object of all true education is not to make men carpenters, it is to make carpenters men
I have a new motto.
Dr. Molly Ivors
I agree, but this is still a close second:
Go fuck somebody else's pet rat, you moldy cheese-brained shitwhistle with the manners of an ostracized cockroach.
NTodd, Snacking Pink
Nietzsche and the Sufis both agreed that learning how to learn is the basis to all education.
Learning to swear like a plumber comes next.
Are there any blogs or sites out there to help people, regular people, strategize to deal with the coming recession, maybe even depression?
"aiiight. gotta go make the lime tartlets."
At first read I thought she was calling us names
Buckeye,
Especially at the CC level, books are onerous. Our students tend to be less well-funded.
I don't even use anthologies anymore, just a rhetoric. We read stuff from the web.
Years ago I worked in the classified advertising department of one of the metro papers. Amazing class divides in that department. If you were in your 20s & a college grad, you could be an outside salesperson in the automotive section -- go get the car ads. You could make a good buck there. If you were in your 20s and not a college grad, you could work in the same department as a clerk. A much less good buck there. If you were in your 20s, a college grad, and son or daughter of one of the big advertisers, you could get out of classified ads and into ROP ads -- the ads sprinkled throughout the paper. And that's where the real money was.
But you had to have that BA in anything to even be considered for a spot where you could make any money as a salesperson. Strange, huh?
I shoulda gone into the production side of the paper. But I was there at the wrong time in an industrial revolution. If it had been ten years later it would have been different. See, when I was at the paper, hot type was on its way out and computers were on their way in. Union compositors were getting replaced by desktop publishing, and oh, it was traumatic. Skilled workers, middle-aged men with union cards, were getting replaced by very young women just out of art school.
Now they generally have the copy editors lay out the pages, and it's a crappy job. The copy editors can't actually copyedit, since they're laying out the page on deadline. So two good jobs, copy editor and compositor, got smushed into one crappy job.
And I'm in magazines.
i could go post on my own blog, but really i prefer to posterior.
Won't you fall behind?
He's gone more in to having the beginning courses have books specialized for Sinclair, so you can't get them from any library (even Sinclair's library doesn't have them).
He's getting paid off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-...h?v=-
LN_u9f7ALo
Won't you fall behind?
sidhra, snow princess ص& | 12.22.07 - 1:26 pm | #
it'e holey possible.
Almost invariably they are advertizing for nursing instructors or instructors for radiology technician classes.
Yep. Partly that's because CC's pay so poorly, comparatively speaking. You can make a lot more working in health science than teaching it.
And a lot of students are coming in with such poor math and English skills that they're often looking at a year or more of remediation before they qualify for the classes they want to take.
CC should really be free, but it's not.
Along with "Homeland Security" can we now refer to the FBI and related authorities as "Big Brother"?
From a Friday "dump".
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/
20071...i_biometrics_dc
The FBI is embarking on a $1 billion project to build the world's largest computer database of biometrics to give the government more ways to identify people at home and abroad, the Washington Post reported on Friday.
The FBI has already started compiling digital images of faces, fingerprints and palm patterns in its systems, the paper said.
In January, the agency -- which focuses on violations of federal law, espionage by foreigners and terrorist activities -- expects to award a 10-year contract to expand the amount and kinds of biometric information it receives, it said.
At an employer's request, the FBI will also retain the fingerprints of employees who have undergone criminal background checks, the paper said.
If successful, the system, called Next Generation Identification, will collect the biometric information in one place for identification and forensic purposes, the Post said.
shoot, we had some good puns going.
and i rectum.
Return of teh Jedi on BHO
Are there any blogs or sites out there to help people, regular people, strategize to deal with the coming recession, maybe even depression?
foolme1ns
This one.
*To be clear, I don't think one needs to graduate from college to avoid loserdom. That's my whole point!
Word.
In a sense, college is for "losers." About 3/4 of them are there because they have no natural talent.
I won't make $100,000 in the next two years.
Don't feel bad. I won't make $1,000,000 in the next 85 years.
I can tell you who the next President will be - it seems obvious to us down in Texas who watch these things. It'll be Mitt Romney. He has something none of the others, except maybe McCain, have, that's he's presidential materials. yeah, he'll have some squabbles over his religion, but a Catholic was also elected, and that was 40 damn years ago!
"Are there any blogs or sites out there to help people, regular people, strategize to deal with the coming recession, maybe even depression?"
we're gonna extend the garden, maybe sell pencils on the corner.
one of the deepest minds i've ever met was a guy who was a can-do-anything sort of construction journeyman.
plumber/carpenter/electrician... never charged what he was worth, either.
damn good post, atrios.
We even have a homeland security specialization with our law enforcement major.
And we're developing green engineering as a major, too.
owls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't have the buttcrack to be a plumber.
Texascilibean
You are such a total asshole, you know that?
and i rectum.
dirk gently, sociopathetic |
Homepage |
12.22.07 - 1:27 pm | #
we should creat an appendix of good Eschaton pun threads.
Hoot!
I don't even use anthologies anymore, just a rhetoric. We read stuff from the web.
Dr. Molly Ivors |
when my daughter was in 3rd grade, she read the book assigned in one night. she never told us, nor did she tell what she did during class reading time.
then her teacher requested a conference.
we learned that olivia had been sneaking david copperfield. she had a paperback, hidden behind the judy blume or whatever the assigned fluff was. she was afraid she'd get in trouble.
Terry C - Democratic Bitch -
No, I'm not. I won't say another word about the subject, but on November 5, 2005, I'm coming back to quote my quote and your response, and let's see who's right.
By the way, your moniker seems fitting. Good choice.
Romney has a lot of money, is the original plastic man, apparently likes to torture dogs, can't decide where he is on any issue, and is a very authoritarian scary mo'fer.
I meant 2008.
I thought I was going to make a bit over $100,000 this year, but then the show I was story editing was put on hiatus (a polite way to say killed) and $75,000 flew out the window. So this year, I'll make a little over $30,000. It's not been a great year.
"Yeah, tell yourself i'm the snobby one because I don't think it's fun to make fun of poor people and I call you out on it.
that makes as much sense as when my KKK co-worker calls me a bigot for not accepting his hatred of black people as legitimate entertainment.
Or don't you know that what you sound like to people who don't already like you?"
What are you talking about, asshole?
By the way, your moniker seems fitting. Good choice.
Texascilibean
Thank you!
The current average age of a working nurse is 54 years old. Shortages, anyone? A lot of the openings caused by people leaving the field are being filled by immigrants from the Phillipines and other places who are paid less and have fewer skills.
therealhellkitty
In watching my mom's intensive health care in her final days/weeks/months, I'm developing an interest in the profession. But I don't think I'd be able to stand having to obey bad orders from a miserable MD just trying to pad his vacation accounts. Nor would I mesh well with corporate health care - people deserve tobe treated as people, not as "cases" governed by statistics and actuarial tables.
What are you talking about, asshole?
Terry C - Democratic Bitch
are we still doing the posterior puns?
i could go post on my own blog, but really i prefer to posterior.
dirk gently, sociopathetic |
Ass me no more questions, I'll tell you no more lies.
That's what Little Luiu said before she closed her eyes.
I'm coming back to quote my quote and your response, and let's see who's right.
Do you promise to off yourself if you're wrong?
And you are.
No, I'm not. I won't say another word about the subject, but on November 5, 2005, I'm coming back to quote my quote and your response, and let's see who's right.
Texascilibean | 12.22.07 - 1:32 pm | #
You ain't particularly smart, are ya?
Lulu.... mistakes were made.
colleges have professors like Glenn Reynolds to teach "OMG hate crimes against conservatives!"
None of you can actually defend Atrios's statement, and if you could you wouldn't really need to attack me now would you. But you can't. You can't defend the idea that most kids shouldn't be allowed to go to college. You certainly can't defend the idea that too many are allowed to go now. Acting like a bunch of snarling freepers won't for a moment change the fact tbat Atrios wrote a post that would win him rave reviews from the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Times. He may as well have come out for baby-rape and a kitten holocaust in terms of politically or socially defensible positions.
Good Job people! You've done more to discredit liberal thought in one post thread than the National Review has done in 50 years. Bloody fucking brilliant.
You can't defend the idea that most kids shouldn't be allowed to go to college.
Except he never said that. Or anything like that.
You're either stupid, or just a huge asshole, or both.
I'm betting both.
You don't need to go to college to read, learn, and be educated. You can read Crime and Punishment by dropping 10 dollars at a bookstore. College as constituted now is a way to enforce the class system.
Except for the sciences, higher education is complete crap that can be replaced by self-study.
The late, great Paul Goodman once said that since there was NO CORRELATION between having a degree and how well you would do a given job (can't tell from performance who has a degree and who does not), and since employers all require them, they should simply be issued along with the birth certificate. He was only partly kidding.
Too bad more people don't read Goodman, who was a pioneer of Gay Liberation, a fine poet and novelist, as well as a prescient thinker and gadfly on matters of public policy, urban planning, and in his best-known book, Growing Up Absurd (a great companion volume, btw, is that other great classic, Coming of Age in America, by the late Edgar Z. Friedenberg, also a gay activist and terrific social critic).
I graduated with a ba in philosophy and got a job on a tugboat. Paid ok: 18.87/hr. Now I'm getting another ba in industrial design. I'll probably end up living in China designing wrenches.
Thread is too long to read all the comments but here's my take on the local building trades:
Many of these occupations are being "In Sourced". There is a strong flow of people, very nice and hard working people, north. My handicapped son got "In Sourced" when the small company he worked for was going to be sold. Most of the long time staff was let go and some nice people who don't have documentation were hired to boost profits.
At higher levels these people are "H1B's". Your job can't be exported but people who can do you job for cheaper can be imported.
The most inept, stupidest, clueless people I have ever worked with have been those with BAs and higher.
In the EMS field, we could tell the smartest one in the class, or the nurse or doctor who thought it would be so cool to be a medic because they were so inept at doing "real world" medicine. They were the ones who usually ended up with me bitch slapping them for being incompetent idiots. I had to tell a resident once who wanted to do an extensive workup in the field on a trauma patient, "hey, we left the Cat Scan back at the station, just start the IV okay?" The resident looked at me and said, "aren't IVs the nurses' job?" I had to start the IV for him, and and also had to walk him through setting up my bag for me.
In the social services field, I see people all hung up on "book learning". For example, in my current work, Adult Foster Care Services, this girl is 3 months away from her social work degree was giving out her personal information such as MySpace account with pictures of her family, her personal cellphone info to our clients. I watched as she gave this out to our resident who has a history of physical violence towards staff, and has repeatedly made threats against staff. I asked her, "just curious, didn't they cover appropriate boundaries and dicuss nonparellel relationships with you in school? She said they did, but her other professor told her it was important for her to build strong client relationships and garner client trust. Stupid is what I call it, and it seems to me college degrees forgot to teach common fucking sense.
No, the college grads I see expect the world on a plate because of damn slip of paper, and once they get that paper, they think they know it all. I have taken college classes, and one professor told me that I really didn't need to spend upwards of $30,000 grand on a degree, because I had a library card, and the willingness to educate myself by "apprenticing" and learning.
But, that said, that piece of paper opens some very closed doors. For my money though, I would rather hire a guy witn tons of experience, emotional intelligence, and no degree, than anything that walks out of a four year college these days.
And, to mention again, the colleges and universities have been sooooooo into "growing" their own businesses over these last decades, and let's not forget how many teaching jobs have gone to (really smart) immigrants!
Well, that's the world we live in. You gotta be way overqualified just to get your foot in the door. It shouldn't ought to be that way, but it is.
The only thing the most college degrees signify is an ability to delay gratification: "hey employer, this person was willing to follow complicated tedious direction from us years, and they'll probably do the same for you, too."
But it's a hard requirement for way too many jobs. Works out as a nice racket for the schools, who extract a nice little five to six figure toll on the way to employability from 20 to 30 percent of the population.
Um, preview is my friend:
The only thing most college degrees signify is an ability to delay gratification: "hey employer, this person was willing to follow complicated tedious direction from us for years, and they'll probably do the same for you, too."
But it's a hard requirement for way too many jobs. Works out as a nice racket for the schools, who extract a nice little five to six figure toll on the way to employability from 20 to 30 percent of the population.
I went to one of the best colleges in the United States and I am a complete loser. I just hope I don't die on the streets with no teeth.
I saw Robert Reish speak to a room full of chief state school officers on this topic. He talked specifically about this problem and how schools can help students avoid the outsourcing challenges. His point was that our students in colleges should be trained to coordinate overseas workers and outsourced groups with the internal goals of a company. They should not bother training for the jobs themselves. His other point was that personal services (such as plumbers, dog walkers, physicians) would not be outsourced and were very worth the preparation.
A corollary to your point, with which I agree, is that you don't necessarily need to go to college to go to graduate school. Many people don't know this, so it's worth noting. I was a high school dropout when I entered Duke Law in 1980; made law review too. Life experience beats college in a lot of respects.
I'll add a second corollary...at one time, in the District of Columbia at least, you didn't need a law school education to take the local Bar exam. If you passed, you were a lawyer.
I went to a great prep school in DC and my father taught at DC's best university for something more than forty years. The fact that I never graduated from sain unnamed U. hasn't ever held me back.
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