I'MMA LET YOU FINISH

Gravatarme!


Gravatarhgkdhgkghsk


GravatarCurses, beaten again!


GravatarFUCK YOU BITCH, YOU RUINED MY LIFE!


GravatarFourth maybe.


GravatarNow now, NTodd, calm down.


GravatarOooo, not fast enough.


GravatarWhat is Hulk Smash?


GravatarWhat is Hulk Smash?

Only Atrios knows and he will not tell.


GravatarOnly Atrios knows and he will not tell.


Ve haf vays of meking heem talk.


GravatarWhat is Hulk Smash?

Only Atrios knows and he will not tell.


IIRC, he changed that header when Ted Stevens was in the news again. Ted wears a hulk tie when he's in a bitchy mood. Hulk stereotypically says, "hulk smash."


GravatarDr Clayton Forrester, scientist, is dropping you know what at TCM.


GravatarFUCK YOU BITCH, YOU RUINED MY LIFE!
NTodd, Thread Führer


He meant to say "pass the butter".


Gravatarrat wing pundit bots on msnbc chuckling over "a whole new generation of clinton-haters"

ha ha ha u are all dickheads get farked

.


Gravatar(º)(º)


GravatarHulk must smash puny humans!


GravatarFUCK YOU BITCH, YOU RUINED MY LIFE!
NTodd, Thread Führer

He meant to say "pass the butter".


No. He meant that the greatest comment of his whole life probably slipped his mind because of a new emptythread.


Gravatarsnarky posters......since Tena left..

-------------------------

love will keep us together


Snark has always kept us together. It's in the air around here...


Gravatarrepub Maine caucuses:

53% romney
20% paul
18% mccain
5% huckabee

12% reporting


GravatarSnark has always kept us together. It's in the air around here...

That's why I'm here, to learn from the masters.

Snark is a many-splendored thing.


GravatarBig Maybelle does wonderful sexy growling in Rain Down Rain.


GravatarNTodd, Thread Führer | Homepage | 02.02.08 - 6:49 pm | #

Tank you!


GravatarSnark has always kept us together.

The Curmudgeon and Tennille.


Gravatarthe greatest comment of his whole life probably slipped his mind because of a new emptythread.

There oughta be a word fer that. Like "deadthreading," or "threadloss."


GravatarBig ugliness brewing in the Middle East. Israeli submarines are cutting undersea internet cables, and the attack against Iran is coming next week.


COMPLETELY UNREPORTED IN THE US AND ISRAEL:

Cutting Cables, Lighting Fuses

Cutting Cables, Lighting Fuses
By Peter Chamberlin

A third undersea cable has been cut, effectively eliminating the Internet in the Middle East. But according to CNN that cable outage does not extend to Israel, Lebanon and Iraq.

Is it a coincidence that these three countries, who represent the next phase of the war on terrorism, were spared in the communications blackout that is affecting the rest of the Middle East? With the reemergence of the shadowy Fatah Al Islam organization, which has been linked to Saudi Prince Bandar, Saad Al-Hariri, the Mossad and neocon Elliot Abrams, it becomes clear that the pre-invasion of Lebanon scenario from last summer has nearly been reset. Bush laid claim to Lebanon with his recent executive order criminalizing criticism of US/Israeli actions in Lebanon, just as he did with the previous one on Iraq. These two orders claimed that the entire war of terror hinged on these sideshows, declaring that failure in either represents “an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States.”

It is obvious to the casual observer that things are really starting to heat-up in Lebanon, with the recent attack upon a US Embassy vehicle, the car-bombing of the Hariri investigator, even another fake Osama bin Laden video about Lebanon. The assassination of Lebanese investigator Capt. Wissam Eid, who reportedly suspected Israeli involvement in recent assassinations blamed on Syria, such as Rafik Hariri, is very likely another Mossad false flag attack, carried-out to entertain the gullible sheep of the United States.

http://www.dailyscare.com/commen...ment/reply/ 2955


GravatarThere oughta be a word fer that. Like "deadthreading," or "threadloss."

NTroppy.


GravatarSnark is a many-splendored thing.
It is indeed.


GravatarHas someone said "Rain Down Love"?


Gravatar"a whole new generation of clinton-haters"

I dunno, Janet Weiss told me not to vote for her too.


GravatarSnark can also be pointless and boring.


GravatarThere oughta be a word fer that. Like "deadthreading," or "threadloss."

k&y,nothingbutmammals


Threadnesia.


GravatarThe word snark sounds snarky


Gravatargoddammit writing code over the remote wire is rilly tedious

.


GravatarSee, what Arthur doesn't get, is the pure pleasure of a brand new, FRESH batch of Jaffa Cakes, sitting on the counter, waiting to be eaten....

Heaven.



Gravatardoes someone wanna go get me beer?


GravatarThere oughta be a word fer that. Like "deadthreading," or "threadloss."

k&y,nothingbutmammals


FateScissors


GravatarIs a Jaffa cake anything like a Jaffa orange?


Gravatarborderline thread disorder?

.


GravatarOne undersea cable being cut could be an accident. Two? Highly unlikely. Three? It ain't no accident.


GravatarGWPDA, are you getting the puppy?


GravatarIs a Jaffa cake anything like a Jaffa orange?

If it's what I think it is it's a chocolate-orange cookie.


GravatarThreadzheimers?


GravatarIf it's what I think it is it's a chocolate-orange cookie.
Echidne


Oh, man. Arthur doesn't know what he's missing.


GravatarMore Big Maybelle. Voice yummy like a Jaffa cake.


Gravatarhey...we finally got our pot rack hung!

And I'm on my ipod right now cause zapette's gotta play some goony game.


GravatarJeffCo is one mean scrabulous player. He just keeps piling on the points.


GravatarJeffCo is one mean scrabulous player. He just keeps piling on the points.
Marcellina


I must be some kind of masochist, because I keep starting games with Sinfonian.


GravatarABC News conducting an interview with... Captain America.


Yes, ABC just called Chuck Norris and Schwarzenegger "real life superheroes."


GravatarJAFFA! KREE!!!!


GravatarYes, ABC just called Chuck Norris and Schwarzenegger "real life superheroes."



That's beautiful


GravatarIs a Jaffa cake anything like a Jaffa orange?

Oh, the Jaffacake!  Oh, how to describe it!  Perfection - cake, plus chocolate, plus slightly bitter orange, all in one deliciousness bite....  I can remember going on the train between Ealing and up to Scotland, equipped with boxes of the things...  People on WWI-L used to send me them - but here, now - a single fresh package is heaven.

And then, <a href="http://www.lamondlab.com/pdf/jaffacake.PDF: >there's this.....</a>

JohnJS - alas, noes.  Arthur is a very jealous Arthur and Angel is a very tough little girl...  And they didn't get along one darned bit.  She will find a good home tho.  And Arthur got all the toys.
.


GravatarJeffCo is one mean scrabulous player. He just keeps piling on the points.

Yes. I hate him with a passion you just don't know.


GravatarGeor3ge, when I get through these games, I shall challenge you next.

Sinf is supposed to be wickedly good.


GravatarSince Echidne won't pass the butter, I'm going to have to get it, and dinner, myself. BBL.


GravatarSinf is supposed to be wickedly good.
Marcellina


I'd like to pit him against my sisten in law. She plays to kill.


GravatarGWPDA, yclept Irate Scholar, do you know those graham biscuits with the milk chocolate covering an essentially savory biscuit? They are heaven.


Gravatarsisten=sister. Oy, I need a nap.


Gravatarwow...20k at a Obama event here today, with another 10k turned away.


GravatarAnd I need to hit the hay as well.
Good night, lovely moonbats, until tomorrow.


GravatarSince Israel still has Internet, wouldn't the editors of the major newspapers there normally do their best to get such a news scoop? Neither the Jerusalem Post nor Haaretz has anything at all to say about the sabotaged cables on their sites. A search for undersea cables on both sites reveals nothing. Something very bad is in the air. Normally the Israeli press is the favored medium for taunting the Arabs’ misfortune. Both papers, which were used to disseminate the disinformation about the recent air attack upon Syria, are eerily silent about what is now going down.

I do hope this writer's surmisals are not correct. Could BushBoy possible be pushing some kind of aggressive action in the regions. Damn.

Plus there's more about inimations of Israeli actions against Iran and Gaza.


GravatarOh, the story was about how Capt. America is now carrying a gun.


GravatarGWPDA - what's a Jaffa cake? do you have a recipe to share?


GravatarYes, ABC just called Chuck Norris and Schwarzenegger "real life superheroes."

Martin Bashir was a gossip paparazzo and Terry Moron always struck as as a less intelligent Tucker Carlson. When they got promoted we thought, here ABC goes lower than you thought they could.


GravatarObama found 12,000 people in Idaho.


GravatarThat's a shame GWPDA.
I know how much you were looking forward to having her.


GravatarSinf is supposed to be wickedly good.

He's beating me currently, but I did put the hurt on him the other day, which made me happier than a good vowel movement.


Gravatarhttp://www.dailyscare.com/commen...ment/reply/ 2955

Link for the Internet cables, etc.


GravatarYes, ABC just called Chuck Norris and Schwarzenegger "real life superheroes."

heroic heavy lifting picking up their paychecks for acting jobs?

.


Gravatarjust how many scrabulous do you have going at a time, Ntodd?


Gravatar[X]

Echidne |


Homepage |
02.02.08 - 7:05 pm | #



GWPDA,
yclept Irate Scholar, do you know those graham biscuits with the milk
chocolate covering an essentially savory biscuit? They are heaven.

My angel, those are McVitie's chocolate covered digestive biscuits.  And I have a LARGE packet of them on the counter e'en now.  The dark chocolate kind.

Some time back, when McVitie's came out with caramel digestives, I left them on the counter - only to discover that Arthur had found them, stolen them and eaten them.  Apparently, other than the caramel coating, there is very little difference between his own cookies .... and mine.


Gravatarwow...20k at a Obama event here today, with another 10k turned away.

WHY DO YOU HATE HILLARY, YOU SEXIST WARMONGER?!?!?!


Gravatarand mittens is having a rally here now...at a real estate office. Heh.


Gravatarjust how many scrabulous do you have going at a time, Ntodd?

14. Plus 2 chess games and a World Conquest going on. I'm also playing Triumph and Rise of the Rebellion, but those are fairly asynchronous.

Now I'm really going to make dinner because, as it turns out, I've eaten nothing all day. Don't know how that happened...


GravatarMy angel, those are McVitie's chocolate covered digestive biscuits. And I have a LARGE packet of them on the counter e'en now. The dark chocolate kind.

Ah. Now that I have the name I can go hunting. Thanks.


GravatarThat's a shame GWPDA.

I know how much you were looking forward to having her.

Thank you.  Yes, I was.  She was the sweetest little thing ever.  Soft and funny looking.  But what there is what there is.


GravatarI suck at scrabble.


GravatarBut what there is what there is.

Not all dogs like each other and some dogs don't like to be in a pack of dogs. And some like other dogs to play with but not to share their humans or beds or bowls. That's how it is.


GravatarWHY DO YOU HATE HILLARY, YOU SEXIST WARMONGER?!?!?!
NTodd, Thread Führer


Oh dear.

Well, perhaps now is not the best time for a blogwhore, but this is a drive-by, so I don't have much choice.

Bonus Critter Blogging is up, featuring a newly identified species.


GravatarIran only lost the war with Iraq after its leaders grew stupidly proud and went the way of "perpetual revolution." Before that, with far less resources than it has now, and with forces that current military advisors reckoned couldn't stop an American riot squad, it successfully dashed the hopes of Saddam Hussayn and the excellent modern munitions he had been supplied with by nearly the whole world to stamp out the Ayatollah. Back in the invasions of the 40s and 50s Iranians fought room by room, floor by floor, building by building, block by block.
Can the Zionists really be this dumb? Are we so close to finally ending this?


GravatarHere is a picture of me and my Big Sister Lisa, when we were very little. The picture, an old Kodachrome, has decayed, as have I.


GravatarI suck at scrabble.

But not at Scrabulous.


GravatarNTropy



GravatarCan the Zionists really be this dumb? Are we so close to finally ending this?

Yes.


GravatarIf you're board, you can always go the mall and shoot someone in the face.


Gravatarbored!


GravatarI do zap. Everybody is beating me lately. Well except NTodd


GravatarWell, my hair is fireproof.


GravatarJeopardy! isn't on demmit

Just a special about the NY Giants.


GravatarHere is a picture of me and my Big Sister Lisa, when we were very little.

Very cute. I have one of my mother holding me as a baby juxtaposed with another of me holding her a few months before her death. Eeek!


Gravatar(Note: Iran "lost" the war with Iraq in the sense that neither state won a clear victory. In fact Iran was closer to being a bonafied victor, having repulsed the Iraqi invasion and kept Saddam's state of the art and CIA supported Republican Guard off balance with totally new and totally illegal techniques. )


GravatarI'm afraid to play anyone anymore on Scrabulous. I've never won a game.


GravatarA headline: Thousands Mourn Mormon President.

Why? Didn't he have very good innings and now he will get to be a god on his own planet with many goddess wives?


Gravatar
NTroppy.
geor3ge


yes, that was a good one


GravatarCables being cut to inhibit Internet traffic?

If the Zionist cabal is truly ready to make the control of the middle east and America complete, they may use these early stories of Internet Cabal Cutting to create a story that makes it appears as thous Al Qaeda or other state actors are going to be engaging in additional cable cutting as retaliation, and the next thing you know, BIG BROTHER has disconnect the Internet worldwide by cutting most of the major cables, explaining it away as an escalating version of warfare.

Don't be surprised when a week from now, an apparent epidemic of cable cutting begins to effect your ability to communicate.

DON'T TRUST THE GLOBALISTS.

http://www.dailyscare.com/commen...ment/reply/ 2955


GravatarA headline: Thousands Mourn Mormon President.

Those are his wives.


GravatarWhy? Didn't he have very good innings and now he will get to be a god on his own planet with many goddess wives?
Echidne


It's why I suspect lots of "religious" people of being agnostic in reality.

Heaven is so wonderful yet people are depressed and terrified about going there.

It's like you live in a garbage dump and you know that one day you will live forever in Beverly Hills, but you are desperate to put that day off.


GravatarIt's not Israeli submarines cutting the cables, but something far more sinister..


GravatarMy sister died when she was 19, of Type I diabetes and some other things....  I remember having a sister for awhile.  These are things you miss when you get to be very old.
.


GravatarGwpda, how cute! You look like you were laughing at something.


GravatarCables being cut to inhibit Internet traffic?

If the Zionist cabal is truly ready to make the control of the middle east and America complete,


I'd like to know exactly how this differs from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.


GravatarGWPDA - do you have the time or inclination to put on your Dr. of All Things Thyroid hat for a long time lurker? Been treated for Graves since Sept. (metropolol and methimazole) and it was AWful waiting to feel better, but then I thought I was but last blood test showed the darn thing had completely shut off and now they have me on levothyroxine as well which is causing the heart racing etc. all over and so they have me taking it all-plus xanax thank god, but does that sound right? Any idea how long it is going to take before I stiop feeling exhausted and jumpy and cold and like I might have a heart attack any second? My doc seems smart and nice but very blase, oh yeah we'll check in another two months.. Thanks in advance


GravatarJaffa cake sounds yummy. But so does Pistachio Sponge Cake.


GravatarDamn you JJ Abrams and your putting more work into viral marketing for sea monster movies than the movie itself!


GravatarGwpda, how cute! You look like you were laughing at something.

SHE'D PINCHED ME!  EVERY SINGLE TIME WE HAD A PICTURE TAKEN, MY SISTER PINCHED ME!!!



GravatarCables being cut to inhibit Internet traffic?

If the Zionist cabal is truly ready to make the control of the middle east and America complete,

I'd like to know exactly how this differs from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Adam Hominem | 02.02.08 - 7:20 pm

Spoken by a true "Megaphone" Hasbara Agent.


GravatarI have a picture of me at maybe a year old, sitting in a high chair with a Mohawk haircut. A nonconformist even as a baby.

Actually, I was getting a lot of blood transfusions at the time and the docs apparently put the needles in my temples.


GravatarIf the Jews cut the cable only the end would be snipped off.


GravatarSpoken by a true "Megaphone" Hasbara Agent.
anonymous


Riiiight.


GravatarIf the Jews cut the cable only the end would be snipped off.
Bjorn,a poor young country boi




Gravatargreat pix and sorry about your loss as well GWPDA


GravatarMy sister died when she was 19, of Type I diabetes and some other things.... I remember having a sister for awhile. These are things you miss when you get to be very old.

So true.


GravatarAdam:

Why don't you tell us all what a Megaphone enabled Hasbara agent is.


GravatarSleep, my pretties.


GravatarI have Kodachromes of my childhood. But I'm not old enough yet to want to admit what I looked like as a child.


GravatarAdam:

Why don't you tell us all what a Megaphone enabled Hasbara agent is.
anonymous


Ummm, a new toy from Hasbro?


GravatarBBC story on the damaged cables:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/techn...ogy/ 7222536.stm


Gravatarexactly how this differs from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.I'd like to know

Really? Russian secret police forgers were writing about the disruption of internet traffic? Do you know anything about what you're presuming to be outraged about? Jewish peasants exiled to the Pale could hardly have spoiled for a war with their milk cows; Israel, a nation state with a government that gets into wars as a hobby, has the best main battle tank, the finest air force and arguably some of the greatest infantry units in the world, and which provokes its neighbors whenever it can, has been going on and on about what they'd like to do with Iran in full view, in English and without double entendre for a couple of years now.


Gravatarok, custom scroll thingies #1 and #2 both work perfectly. that's enough being useful for the weekend. i'll make the code look pretty on monday

and now for something completely different

.


GravatarI'm sorry for your loss, GWPDA.


Gravatargwpda, boy that bed room set looks familiar. i remember being told my new bedroom set was made of "hard rock maple"...this was a phrase used a lot in my house in the fifties....it impressed on me that it was indestructible and by association so were me and my family....but it wasn't and neither were we....but it felt good to have such stuff and i often wonder what the heck my folks did with it.


GravatarSpoken by a true "Megaphone" Hasbara Agent.

Now that's funny.

Good grief.


Gravatar
Really?

k&y,nothingbutmammals


You're ranting but not listening. Your anonymous friend claims a Zionist plot for world--well the middle east and America, anyway-- domination.

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, ditto.

You guys are too smart to associate with idiot anti-semites. Come on.


GravatarIsrael, a nation state with a government that gets into wars as a hobby

ummmm... perhaps a sensitive, serious situation like this calls for less exaggeration?

.


GravatarBBC story on the damaged cables:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/techn...ogy/ 7222536.stm
Lumpenprolitariot | 02.02.08 - 7:24 pm

Three cables severed within days of one another - and no mention of the possibility that the cables were cut by a state actor equipped with submarines doing this intentionally.

Be VERY concerned.

Iran was to begin trading oil in anything other than US dollars this coming week.

Probably just a massive coincidence, eh?


Gravatarbut last blood test showed the darn thing had completely shut off and
now they have me on levothyroxine as well which is causing the heart
racing etc. all over and so they have me taking it all-plus xanax thank
god, but does that sound right? Any idea how long it is going to take
before I stiop feeling exhausted and jumpy and cold and like I might
have a heart attack any second? My doc seems smart and nice but very
blase, oh yeah we'll check in another two months.


Honey, takes 6-8 weeks for Synthroid/levothyroxine to build up enough in your blood for there to be a difference.  It isn't overnight coming to feel better or to feel worse.  Does it sound right?  Probably so.  If you've shut down, then adding in additional thyroid is going to take that 6 to 8 weeks, bit by bit.  As you get closer to the 6-8 period you'll feel better and calmer and quieter - and when you get past that time you'll have less of a need for the Xanax (and good on ur doctor for adding that - it's an interim measure til the thryoid kicks in.)  You might want to talk to the doctor about adding Cytomel as well.  I am not a physician, cher - but probably, if you don't start feeling better in about two week increments you go back to the doctor and tell him about it.  It'll go bit by bit. You've got a juggling act going on there and it's not so easy as we ordinary hypothyroids....


GravatarMoney SHEETS.


Gravatark is so evil. I prefer it when Y posts. Then we get the good stuff.


GravatarOf course, everyone's seen what I looked like when I was a babe...


GravatarIf the Jews cut the cable only the end would be snipped off.
Bjorn,a poor young country boi


OMG.



Gravatarevening all!

so, Under-the-Radar Ron Paul is not going to sweep the Maine caucuses with his Invisible Hand?

me so sad.


GravatarThe Protocols of the Elders of Zion, ditto.

You guys are too smart to associate with idiot anti-semites. Come on.
Adam Hominem | 02.02.08 - 7:28 pm |

Right out of the Hasbara handbook.

Don't forget to mention tin foil hats and UFOs next.

I'm surprised it took you so long to pull out the "anti-Semitism" canard.

How much do they pay you to hang out here?

Could you be any more transparent?


Gravatargwpda, boy that bed room set looks familiar. i remember being told my new bedroom set was made of "hard rock maple".

Damn straight.  Spool beds - and I still have one of them out in the shed.  The bureau I think we sold years ago.  They did last forever! 


GravatarCould you be any more transparent?
anonymous


Lunacy.


GravatarAdam, it's ALWAYS the Joos!

Except when it's the Freemasons.


GravatarThe third rail of American foreign policy, lubed with oil, I can slydz on it.


GravatarGWPDA : Thank you SO much for the reassurances. It really helps to hear it from you, having read many of your wise observations and experiences over the last couple of years! And yes, it is a bit of a roller coaster, especially throwing in a daughter who will be leaving for college and a son in first grade! I am burning both candles and thyroids at both ends! Thanks again for the kind words!


GravatarThe loss of a sister is hard to bear. My younger sister died suddenly in March, and things have been horrible since.

I feel as if my heart has been ripped out.

Time heals, but he's a slow worker.


GravatarStormysu | 02.02.08 - 7:20 pm ~~~

Stormysu, Yahoo has some groups-health-enter your problem.

I know they have a chat/bulletin
board type thing for regular thyroid problems. I joined two of the Thyroid Cancer (Thyca) groups (one is for more difficult cases) and learned things my doctor never mentioned to me. It has truly been a godsend--with almost any strange symptom or problem there's at least one person who's experienced it.

Go check it out and see if it might be of helf to you.

There's also Mary Shomon's newsletter/site which covers lots of thyroid issues.

http://thyroid.about.com/


GravatarYour anonymous friend claims a Zionist plot for world--well the middle east and America, anyway-- domination.

Time was, about five years ago, that wasn't that dumb. In fact it was a good way to get into advisory capacities in Washington, DC. There's a guy named "Perle" who might be able to help if you're interested...
One thing that we could never swallow about the carefully marshalled "opinions" of separate individuals was they way they managed to fit the exact same patterns (and here we do mean "exact"). What this friend claims is that Israel is spoiling for another war (hardly arguable), that it's pissed off at Iran (hardly arguable), that Israel is one of the few forces capable of the damage now being suffered (which we have pointed out in the past, suggesting also Israeli allies the US and Britain and possibly Sarkozy's France), and that it is highly suspicious that the damage would happen as it has, suspicious and advantageous to a certain party which sees itself as existentially threatened. We don't believe in Jews trying to control ... whatever it is they don't, but nobody has any choice in believing or not believing in the Psychostate and its personal delusion of a perpetual invisible knife at its throat justifying CIGARETTES! The Jews have nothing to do with cigarettes. But that's silly, you can't control cigarettes with cable cutting...  In justifying various acts of "defense." Whenever anyone says anything, sane or not, it is carefully squashed into a two or three hundred year old Procrustean bed no matter how preposterous the forced comparison is and everyone lets you get away with it because they're scared of all this power you supposedly don't have. It's ridiculous. Of course Israel is a prime suspect in repeated cable cuttings of its enemies, and when on this subject it remains silent.


GravatarJawbone -- Thank you so much for the link and suggestions! I will definately follow up with those as well.


GravatarOf course Israel is a prime suspect in repeated cable cuttings of its enemies, and when on this subject it remains silent.

k&y,nothingbutmammals


The cable cut off traffic to India. Maybe it was Pakistan. My conspiracy theory is just as good as yours. And I'm not in bed with a lunatic anti-Semite. A Hasbara what?

I mostly admire the fuck out of you two but right now not so much. You're making a classic logical/scientific error: you're twisting the theory to fit the evidence, not the other way around.

Why would Isreal WANT to disrupt this cable, again? Sure, they don't like Iran, but this sure seems like the long way around to expressing their displeasure.


Gravatarfor what it is worth my endocrinologist told me when they get thyroid replacement hormone right you don't even notice you are taking it. parathyroid hormone replacement on the other hand is a tough one....


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