HULK SMASH!!!
Foist!
HOMOPHONES, BITCHES!
Yes.
This is the DLC speaking methinks!
You're not terse. You're economical.
Deadthreaded:
Those kids need to be liberated and sent to live on Liberal Mountain for humanitarian reasons.
The last thing we need is six more kids under ten to go with the eleventyfour we already have.
Molly Ivors
Fixed your typo.
Well, it's nice to hear that we know best. Now Blogroll me! I know best!!!
Just kidding. Don't blogroll me, I have low self esteem and I'm working my way back to 19 readers don't want to draw the attention of Big Bad Radio Company.
Atrios' humility is just further proof of his arrogance.
/wingnut
I bet I know more about women's shoes than Atrios does.
phhphhphht!
Also, when the rants of a bigot go answered, that's not a dialogue.
when atrios was Keepin it Real, no one ever told him to shut the fuck up. i wish jeebus would invest his heart with the love of biofuels again.
Atrios' humility is just further proof of his arrogance.
/wingnut
r€nato, two wetsuits good
---------------
Only a truely arrogant blogger would mention how humble he is.
/Wingnut squared.
Zero comments my lily-white ass!
What really needs to happen is for a group of gay muscle boys to march into one of the homo Klan meetings and start kicking asses.
The bigots will shut up REAL FUCKING FAST.
Part of the reason that we have had a faith outreach in our campaigns is precisely because I don't think the LGBT community or the Democratic Party is served by being hermetically sealed from the faith community and not in dialogue with a substantial portion of the electorate, even though we may disagree with them.
If you want to reach out to good, thoughtful NON-BIGOTS who are "hermetically sealed" off from the party, Obama, reach out to atheists.
That's after you fuck yourself, of course.
Shorter Atrios: when I say dance, you niggahs better dance!
I reach out people I disagree with, like Republicans, all the time. We talk about the things we do agree about, I try to convince them, but in the end I usually say, "I disagree with you."
What I want to know--and I'm only picking up on this second-hand because I still really don't want to waste my beautiful mind on election '08 just yet--WTF was the Obama campaign thinking in inviting a "cured" homosexual? Didn't they, uh, know that was inviting trouble?
I reach out people I disagree with, like Republicans, all the time.
My tendency, unfortunately, is to reach out with my jab.
BTW, this is the end of it for me and Obama. He's not winning the nomination, and I have absolutely zero interest offering any support whatsoever to a fucking bigot. And that's what he is.
Piss off, Speech-Boy.
I think lampwicke's already turned into an ass.
Oh, and more sheets.
It's raining sheets. They're pouring down. Batten down the hatches!
"Thers, these are your new children."
"Aw, nuts"
Culture of Truth
Nah, he'd never be able to keep track of them all anyway. If he questions the sudden appearance of the new refugees, Molly could just put on a shocked and scolding voice and say, "What?! You don't even know how many children you have? What kind of father are you?"
I don't see the words "shut the hell up I know best" in Barack Obama's statement. Not even close.
Yellowbar lies!
My tendency, unfortunately, is to reach out with my jab.
watertiger
You should consider having it hermetically sealed.
"shut the hell up I know best."
Sorry, I just don’t think that’s a fair characterization of the Obama quote.
Hating people of faith and mocking Jesus while being offensively Rosie in your face gay - as opposed to a normal contributing member of society who happens to be gay - Great strategy, I'd go with it.
Wow. Obama doesn't even seem aware of the Metropolitan Community Church.
Dialogue between two people of the "faith community."
NUMBER ONE: I believe in this crap that somebody made up a long time ago.
NUMBER TWO: I believe in some other crap that somebody made up a long time ago.
NUMBER ONE: Hey, look. We both believe in some crap that somebody made up a long time ago!
NUMBER TWO: Truly. We should look past our differences because we are in the same business of selling this crap to rubes.
SCIENTOLOGISTS: What about my crap?
NUMBER ONE AND TWO: Get the fuck away from us with your stupidass cult.
It's at least somewhat ironic that the pols who could most justify acting this way generally do not, while George Bush goes around acting like everyone is stupid but him.
How many more Sister Soldya-out moments does this guy have in him?
He's getting too creepy to stand.
the thing is, and i said this over at the OL thread, in a way, i can understand obama's choice to include this guy. he speaks to a population of people for whom "gays can be cured" reasonates deeply. and those people vote.
in preblogosphere days, none of us would know anything about this event, except those of us who went or had friends who did. why? because the media for the most part doesn't cover "black" events. hil and edwards have prolly been to a bunch, but do we hear about it? no. in the black community, there are many, many jokes about (usually white) politicians "coming into our neighborhoods" during election season, and no time else. they always hit the churches first, and many black churches today have taken up homosexuality in place of the more difficult issues like economic empowerment or civil rights. in part, because they are paid by republicans to do so.
i think the bottom line equation is this: how many progressive pro-gay voters will turn up on primary day? and how many homophobes from black churches? hillary has already collared some of the bigger black church names in SC, so obama has to get who is left. appealing to more "traditional" black churches is one way for him to counter hillary's efforts there so far.
...please imagine me taking Ntodd's favorite strap-on to haloscan, with the sand lube.
It's really just insulting to everyone, with a touch of "shut the hell up I know best."
Could you please show us where you're finding a "touch of shut the hell up I know best" in Obama's statement?
While you seem to be mouthing the words of humility in your post, the entire premise of your post is that you in fact know best (and Obama, subsequently, does not). Irony?
This is all about comfortable white people telling black people how to behave so that the white people don't get uncomfortable.
Yes, I am an ass. And a bunch of you are unbelievably self-righteous.
Hate - Hate - Hate - Hate - Hate - and oh yea, misery......Great platform losers.
Wow, as a member of the faith community, I have to say I find that incredibly insulting.
And y'know, many members of my faith community *are* LGBT. That's right, you can be gay and religious... at the same time!
Sheesh.
If a gay man can be confused about his homosexuality and end up in a sham marriage, then doesn't it stand to reason that a straight man could be confused about his sexuality and start practicing a homosexuality of which he is 'cured'? The language is offensive but it is hypocritical to challenge the personal experience of McClurkin. If sexual orientation is by nature, then it is conceivable that one could be confused about it going in either direction.
Dear Obama:
This is how you do it.
What really needs to happen is for a group of gay muscle boys to march into one of the homo Klan meetings and start kicking asses.
The bigots will shut up REAL FUCKING FAST.
dave™©
No, they'll file hate-crimes charges.
This post isn't even a remotely fair characterization of Obama's quote.
I am a bit bewildered that Atrios would characterize Obama so unfairly and uncharitably. Pretty shameful all the same.
I am a gay man.
I was born a gay man, and I will die a gay man, despite what homophobic preachers and gospel singers may say to the contrary.
I have as little say in the choice of my sexuality as a person has in the choice of his skin color.
People choose their religion, yet when laws for special rights are passed to apply to their choice no one raises a voice against it, yet gay people do not choose their sexuality and if we demand equal civil rights they are called "special rights".
I have said this before, and I will say it again:
Fuck you, Obama.
Yeah, FUCK YOU!!!
This is McClurkin's "half-hour harangue" against homosexuals:
“Don’t call me a bigot or anti-gay when I have suffered the same feelings,” he cried.
“God delivered me from homosexuality,” he added. He then told the audience to believe the Bible over the blogs: “God is the only way.”
- Yes, brutal stuff. I can see why people like Dom would get the vapors over something like this.
You guys are a bunch of petulant children.
Let's move our convention to Burlington VT next year. I'm sure there won't be any black people saying non-conformist things up there.
Who's going to draw up the screening test that will tell us which blacks are allowed to speak in public at an Obama event, and which ones have to keep their mouths shut, because they have funny beliefs that make white people uncomfortable?
lampwicke- I'm not gay and hardly even have any gay acquaintences, but even I can see how "hate the sin not the sinner" and "god will make teh ghey go away" kind of talk must be very offensive to people who are gay.
Just because it isn't as overt as Bill O'Reilly doesn't mean it's OK.
Obama is making a mockery of inclusive politics by embracing the bigotry within part of the African American church community.
There's a difference between saying something "non-conformist" and being a bigot.
Obama lost me long ago when he told me to play nice with people who wave their fingers and condemn me to hell for not sharing their religious beliefs, so I don't have a personal stake in this mess.
That being said, it's absurd to try to say that this was somehow not a reeeeeeeally stupid move to add this guy to his lineup (regardless of Obama's personal beliefs, you don't give bigots a platform and a megaphone and anyone trying to say that gay people should live their lives in the closet and "choose" not to be gay is a fucking bigot).
winner - he's not embracing it; he's letting the guy speak.
This is embracing the view: "I, Obama, also hate homosexuality but love homosexuals."
Compare that to: "I strongly disagree with McClurkin and have told him so; but I am going to let him use his other talents at my show."
See? Not 'embracing'.
Well, as a religious Democrat I have to say that I very strongly disagree with Obama's approach (for all of the stated reasons and more). There are people who can keep their faith and their politics seperated, thank you very much. Good theology doesn't make good policy, and that's the whole of it. I will vote for people who understand that very fundamental principle; Obama has lost my primary vote. I don't like people telling me that, just because I'm religious, I automatically oppose LGBT causes.
"If sexual orientation is by nature, then it is conceivable that one could be confused about it going in either direction."
Um, Lampwicke, this is faulty reasoning. A gay person is driven by a million social messages to want to be straight. No straight person is driven by any social message whatsoever to be gay. If McClurkin was "accidentally" acting gay, it was no accident.
And this is what Obama has said about McLurkin's position:
Statement on Rev. McClurkin
"I have clearly stated my belief that gays and lesbians are our brothers and sisters and should be provided the respect, dignity, and rights of all other citizens. I have consistently spoken directly to African-American religious leaders about the need to overcome the homophobia that persists in some parts of our community so that we can confront issues like HIV/AIDS and broaden the reach of equal rights in this country."
"I strongly believe that African Americans and the LGBT community must stand together in the fight for equal rights. And so I strongly disagree with Reverend McClurkin's views and will continue to fight for these rights as President of the United States to ensure that America is a country that spreads tolerance instead of division."
-- Barack Obama
he's not embracing it; he's letting the guy speak.
The guy's *confused* and is doing nothing to foster an atmosphere of acceptance or even tolerance.
I don't see what good this is possibly doing.
"A gay person is driven by a million social messages to want to be straight. No straight person is driven by any social message whatsoever to be gay."
Life is a little more complex than that. We're not just robots that tally up all the messages we're getting and obey the majority. Most people are bisexual to some degree. And have you ever heard of 'lipstick lesbians'?
"The guy's *confused* and is doing nothing to foster an atmosphere of acceptance or even tolerance.
I don't see what good this is possibly doing."
I'll tell you what good it's doing: McClurkin is getting an earful from Obama in a very public way (see the statement Obama released, above). That wouldn't have happened otherwise.
It's called free speech; try some.
Wow, trolls-a-poppin' all over this thread.
"Lipstick lesbians"? I mean, that's your argument?
""Lipstick lesbians"? I mean, that's your argument?"
No; that's just an easily digestible fragment of it. Anyway, there are many intensely homophobic yet intensely homosocial areas of society (the military, sports, much of the GOP) in which the homosocial elements are enough to spawn a bit of confused experimentation on the part of men who are already a little bisexual. So yeah, it's conceivable to me that you could have a guy experience what McClurkin claims to have experienced. He's weird; life's messy. So what?
So when is he going to have a concert by a KKK member?
f the reasonphobes
I'd like to know (and I'm sure so would a lot of LGBT people) where exactly they can go to be hermetically sealed from people who choose to judge their sex lives.
I grew up in the west Village and I ain't been there.
They sure did have a bunch of churches, though.
I'm over Obama. This episode did it for me. Afterall, George Bush claims he doesn't hate Gays either and look at what he did in 2004. We need less religion in politics, not more.
Just call me a "strict constructionist" who believe in the separation of church and state.
If Obama is on the ticket, I go Green!!
That's such an excellent unpacking I wish you would spend all day doing it, or at least another half hour or so...
First it was the AIDS test "controversy", now this. What a splendid example of dim lefty triangulation. It seems that every now and then it's fun for "liberals" to advocate for one oppressed minority at the expense of another, in this case, Gays vs. Blacks. All the while the Right sits back and chuckles. It's a trick they've used to spawn inter-racial animosity for decades. I'm wondering how many of the whining queens with their panties in a twist over this pseudo-controversy have ever confronted the rampant racism in their own community. One of the biggest mouths on this issue has been Pigboy John Aravosis, a virulent crypto-racist bullshitter with a track record of outrageous statements and limited allegiance to the larger GLBT community, limited to pretty boys he'd like to spread for and moronic acolytes with challenged reasoning abilities. But there he is, nestled among the annointed on the Atrios blogroll. It's crap like this that reminds me of the fact that a sickening number of queers are Republicans, drawn to that party, no doubt, by their overt animosity towards African-Americans. If Atrios has these stringent standards that compel him to repeatedly hurl brickbats at Obama for the presence of one confused Black "ex-Gay" touring on behalf of his political campaign, why does he not have, nor has he ever had, equal standards when it comes to confronting hate-mongering shitheels spreading race hate like John "Katherine Harris is such a nice person" Aravosis? I think it's spelled H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y written crisply on a sheet of pure white arrogance.
What I want to know is, why isn't Obama trying break the hermetic seal between Democrats and alienated white-pride voters? Perhaps he'll have room for Pastor Thomas Robb ("Bringing a Message of Hope and Deliverance to White Christian America!" "A Message Of Love, Not Hate!" http://www.kkk.bz/) at his next outreach event. Let all voices be heard!
it's fun for "liberals" to advocate for one oppressed minority at the expense of another, in this case, Gays vs. Blacks
It's funny. When he was on the 700 Club, the Reverend said that activists had to go fight the Harvey Milk school, because they knew where those gay kids were.
Then, when the school opened, along with Fred Phelps and his god hates fags signs there was the Rev. Diaz and his lawsuit against the school (he was working with a group from Florida).
Those gay kids were taking money away from black and hispanic students, he said.
The Harvey Milk school student body is almost 90% black and hispanic and less than 10% caucasian.
Yeah, it's the liberals being divisive here.
"Oh Come ON !" was his response at the LGBT Presidential debate - pretty close to STFU.
The idea that LGBTs are "hermetically sealed" from religious life can be rebutted with three little words:
Bishop Gene Robinson
'This is all about comfortable white people telling black people how to behave so that the white people don't get uncomfortable.'
WTF??
I don't even know where to begin with this shit...
The post and all supporting comments are grounded in atheism v. religion. A lot of what people do is so much silliness to the atheist, who believes in reason. This is a window into how curious or sensitive to difference is, on average, your atheist. I'm surprised how quickly and resolutely people turn against Obama. What an unremarkable quotation it was. He would have been more accurate to say "...hermetically sealed from a faith community, and not in dialogue with a large part of the electorate..." Anyway, I guess you think you can work yourself up about it enough to stick a shiv in a viable African American candidate.
A large chunk of the Anglican church is trying to seal Bishop Gene Robinson off hermetically.
I DO see a gap between those who can see no value whatsoever to the evangelical Christianity represented by McCluskin. To many people, it is just bigotry, offensiveness, superstition. For people like Avarosis and Atrios, it is as though McCluskin was a member of the Nazi Party. Sharing a stage with such a person is sheer betrayal.
For someone like Obama and for someone like me, that Evangelical Christianity is say one quarter bigotry and hurtfulness. Three quarters of McCluskin's evangelical christian faith is nutritious, uplifting, wholesome. That three quarters provides a basis and opportunity for working together.
I see Obama walking it like he talks it.
lampwicke,
you sound a little confused, your own self. People are complicated but generally only need to be cured of hiccups and diseaseas.
It's pretty clear that Donnie "I'm not gay (and so can you)" McClurkin is a self-hating gay black man, although I'm sure Jesus loves him anyway.
As for Obama, he's just another guy who's using poor Donnie, while he panders to homophobic Christian evangelicals, and tells the rest of us precisely what he thinks will best serve the LGBT community and Democratic party.
I bet president Codpiece could use the same words and tone when he makes his latest threat of a recess appointment. James Holsinger, who founded a church that “ministers to people who no longer wish to be gay or lesbian”, and may now be appointed Surgeon General.
No julia, it's not the liberals, it's the "liberals". Now that we've cleared that up, care to defend John Aravosis? What? I can't hear you. Just as I thought. You're a "liberal" too. And the next time you quote me, have the decency to include the entire sentence, with original punctuation. Okay?
Oh, ffs.
It's not the liberals or the "liberals"
It's the party that campaigned for president in the last cycle on teh badness of teh gays.
Don't tell me what to write, you pathetic little troll shit.
Poor brain-dead, tongue-tied julia! Name calling is always the last refuge of those too stupid to win an argument via rational discourse. So if that's the game you want, let's play! And who still finds all that over-used "teh" bullshit amusing save shrill, no-talent, sub-literate hacks like yourself? I think you're broom is double parked. And we're still waiting for the Aravosis defense.
Damn you Artios! You stole my dailykos diary title!
"And have you ever heard of 'lipstick lesbians'?"
Yes I have. As a femme-loving femme lesbian woman, I'm very familiar with the phrase.
Do you know what it means? It has two possible meanings.
The original meaning is to describe a feminine woman who is sexually attracted to other feminine women. I'm sure you aren't using it this way, because such women generally aren't bisexual. Also, outside of California (and particularly the LA scene), that phrase is almost never used by the femme lesbian community (and it's widely considered a condescending phrase).
The second (and more obscure) meaning is as a derogatory phrase used to imply that feminine lesbians aren't real lesbians. I *know* you wouldn't be rude enough to use such a derogatory phrase to insult femme lesbians like myself.
So I'm mystified as to how you think it is relevant...
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