I appreciate that these people are upset, but it's hard to sympathise with people who boast about the way they've combined to make things tough for the Yeshiva Center. I hope Mr Waks and other Jewish residents aren't involved in this. It looks like mesira to me.
Joe in Australia | 09.06.09 - 10:28 pm | #

I'ts mesira? How? What would you do in their position? Can't you feel for their plight?
chitas | 09.06.09 - 11:47 pm | #

Why is the fact that yeshivah says quote from your article "and been told that either it was another Jewish organisation who created the disturbance or that youths had entered the ground without permission" not true?
Which part of that exactly, is a lie?
I was personaly a witness at many, many (app 20 inccedents over the last 2yrs) of the fireworks and specificly the "Lag Baomer bonfire" and I can testify that that is the truth. In fact a senior member or the yeshivah happened to see and immidieatly told us to eqtishwish the fire. and evacuated the kids.
mendel | 10.06.09 - 12:11 am | #

Yeshivah Centre really believes it has the right to bully and push around whomever they wish. They are arrogant and it is quite obvious their mandate is not to the Rebbe, the community, or any ideals higher than their own narrow self interest with no regard for the welfare of their fellow Jews of the community they obstensibly serve.
chitas | 10.06.09 - 8:15 am | #

eqtishwish - were they one of the Sea Peoples?
Greg the stirrer | 10.06.09 - 9:11 am | #

there must be an Executive election since the executive cannot force themselves onto a community that doesn’t want them
ms | 10.06.09 - 9:27 am | #

He got a $3.5 million dollars as a gift.
The end result of all this is it will be a Chabad House for Chabad Youth and Young Marrieds. A private entity with a gift of a $3.5 million dollars from the Yeshiva Centre
Chabad House next door to Yeshiva !
ms | 10.06.09 - 11:33 am | #

what an embarassing chilul Hashem. most of us are against this development on our premises but don't know what to do about it
anash | 10.06.09 - 12:31 pm | #

This boils down to a lack of "Derech Eretz" on the part of so many within the Yeshiva community and/or related organisations. There is not one law for us and one for the goyim or neighbours here. "The law of the land is the Law", and Yeshiva and other Jewish organisations must work within the law of the land. The old days of people in authority turning a blind eye to breaches of laws by Yeshiva and others are gone, whether we like it or not.

Most of you know my thoughts and concerns on the finances of Yeshiva and related entities. An open investigation into the movement of these funds to Chabad Youth should be held.
Aussie Oliver Shalom | 10.06.09 - 2:17 pm | #

Chitas: Those are three separate questions.
1) Yes, I feel for them. It must be tough living next door to a school.
2)What would I do in their position? Well, I wouldn't be sitting at my window all day, ready to ring the police, the Council, members of Parliament and The Age every time a student passed gas. And now they're installing 24-hour surveillance. My goodness.
3) And how is it mesira? Because reporting someone to the secular authorities - "giving them over" - is what mesira is. And what they're doing is spiteful - "Hurray! we stopped them using their car ramp illegally! Hurray, we cost them thousands of dollars in fines and wasted costs!" These actions aren't related to their actual compliant. They're just petty nonsense.
Joe in Australia | 10.06.09 - 2:25 pm | #

since i am mentioned viciously by "joe" (nice of you to hide behind a non-name & defame a single individual unrelated to the email) above, & i don't wish it to be a case of "shtiko k'hodo'o" ("silence implies agreement"), i will point out the following:
1. i have nothing to do with the email or it's contents.
2. most if not all of the information there is in the public domain. ms carabott is a free agent in a democratic society, who researches the internet & tells me things about yeshivah centre that i didn't know (e.g. $2 million government grant, the previous job of a very senior person in the yeshivah admininstration etc etc).
3. i don't know who the "neighbours" are that are mentioned in the email.
4. while i obviously don't agree with everything she writes, i would have to agree with her view that several of the players, who must remain nameless for defamation & "loshon horo" reasons, have exhibited various combinations of indifference, stupidity, arrogance & downright lying with relation to these matters.
5. i hope that what she says about illegalities is not true.
6. i would also assert that i have seen with my own eyes how previously good, reasonable neighbours of yeshivah have developed strong negative feelings towards yeshivah which, i fear, are flowing on to attitudes to jews in general (otherwise known as anti-semitism).
7. i believe that yeshivah should start a whole new chapter in it's dealings with its neighbours. for example, some other schools engage in meaningful discussions with neighbours before submitting plans, so that what goes to council for approval is in fact an agreed position. unfortunately, in our case, even yeshivah members are kept in "mushroom" state & are told nothing
we want moshiah NOW.
zephaniah waks | 10.06.09 - 2:45 pm | #

whose payroll is "Joe in Australia" on (we don't know who he is, so we can't say)? i don't like anonymous inanities, so while "joe" remains in this state, i refuse to debate him (even though i obviously disagree with almost all of what he says, although "thousands of dollars in fines and wasted costs" is correct!).
zephaniah waks | 10.06.09 - 3:06 pm | #

I don't think I mentioned you viciously, but I am sorry for having offended you.
Joe in Australia | 10.06.09 - 3:19 pm | #

Assuming the Y received $3m or was promised that amount why do they have to be so coy about it all? Why not state via a communal statement how those funds are intended to be applied? This is called being frum and chassidish? Bernie Madoff sends his greetings and welcomes you with open arms, oh dear members of the C.O.M.
Nu? | 10.06.09 - 5:56 pm | #

very amusing "nu?". part of what i was alluding to in my comments 4-6 above. btw, what is "c.o.m."? i googled it, but i don't think that's what u meant.
zephaniah waks | 10.06.09 - 9:43 pm | #

nu i agree with you but its 1 million for thr lend and 2.5 million will be a govt grant. this will turn out to be one of the best chabed houses in australia .ti joe aust hes obviously on the yeshivah pay roll.the new chabed house does not pass through the main office account .iwonder if the executive is a signatory to the chq account?
yeshiva member | 10.06.09 - 10:59 pm | #

I presume that your opinions are your own; I should be obliged if you were to do me the same courtesy.
Joe in Australia | 10.06.09 - 11:36 pm | #

I agree with the statement that Nu made above (at 556pm):
Since there is so much controversy around where the funding is coming from, and a grey cloud over whether or not the Govt grants are being misused for the chabad youth building, I think that Yeshivah and Chabad Youth MUST come out with public statements clearly identifying the facts - how the building is being funded, and where the govy stimulus grants are going.
Enough with the rumours on one hand, and hush hush secrecy on the oither: it is now in the public forum, and we have a RIGHT and NEED to know !!!
NeedToKnow | 11.06.09 - 12:08 am | #

To Zephania Waks:

C.O.M.
Committee of Mismanagement

To Yeshiva Member:

Who knows what goes where?
Who knows who signs what?
Who know who is on what payroll?
Who knows who collects what?
Nu? | 11.06.09 - 12:09 am | #

re 'anash's comment about not knowing where to go, or what to do.
Perhaps we can ask the Vaad Ruchni to make up some more of those signs with coloured arrows ?
Unfortunealty, we probably wont get a more useful input/sense of direction from them ?!
What To Do ? | 11.06.09 - 12:16 am | #

(To Yeshiva Member)Chabad Youth is a private entity the executive is not signatory to the chq account
ms | 11.06.09 - 10:08 am | #

To MS:

Is that fact? If it is, it's outrageous and heads should roll!!!
Nu? | 11.06.09 - 11:17 am | #

joe for the record, are you on the payroll? transperency is a word that is not in the chabad centre dictionary neither is accountability. thepowers in control are the faceless scene changers who still believe in the theory "keep them in the dark and feed them glicks" The truth is that the only time things can be put right is to have open real ellections unfortunatly this will be stopped by the faceless persons who forwhatever reason believe that they know best.
yeshivh member | 11.06.09 - 11:42 am | #

Nu
just ring jack at the yeshiva
ms | 11.06.09 - 12:03 pm | #

(to yeshivh member) I don’t know why everyone is beating around the bush when the solution is so simple, there must be an Executive election since the executive cannot force themselves onto a community that doesn’t want them. If its not done voluntarily than its only a matter of time before the community will force an election onto the Executive.
ms | 11.06.09 - 12:49 pm | #

to "yeshivh member" 11:42 & others: it's interesting that "joe" has only been able to hysterically attack the "neighbours" ("passed gas"..."mesira" etc), but has had nothing to say in rebuttal of the actual issues raised, or in defence of the status quo! go joe.
zephaniah waks | 11.06.09 - 1:24 pm | #

A Government list released 9 June 2009 reports that Yeshivah & Beth Rivkah College will receive $2million for a “multi purpose hall” under the Primary Schools for the 21st Century funding scheme.

The only approved Glen Eira planning permit that resembles a “multi purpose hall” is the Chabad Youth Centre which will be owned and managed by Chabad Youth (a private entity).

In addition, it is a condition of receiving the Government funding that 100% of the funding be used for the “multi purpose hall” and no other projects AND the "multi purpose hall" must be made available for no, or little, cost to ANY community groups on a reasonable basis (this will include non-Jewish local groups).

This means that when Yeshivah management applied for the Primary School stimulus funding from the Government they applied for the money knowing it would be used to fund a third party’s building and not the primary school. In addition they applied knowing that by accepting the funding for the youth centre they would be in breach of the approved Glen Eira planning permit which stimulates that the youth centre can not be used or hired out for any reason unrelated to the education centre (including Alumni events). This condition the Glen Eira Council believed necessary due to all the disturbance caused by Werdiger Hall being hired out for non-school events.

So by accepting the funding the Yeshivah Management will either be in breach of the local by-laws and disregarding the neighbours or in breach of Federal laws.

The Yeshivah management could have applied for the funding in respect of the Beth Rivkah approved Glen Eira planning permit which includes classrooms, a music room, a gym and extending the auditorium – none of which would have to be made available to the local community.

My question is....why did Yeshivah Management’s application for the Government funding specify the multi purpose hall which would belong to a third party instead of the Beth Rivkah classrooms?
A Carabott | 11.06.09 - 1:41 pm | #

The solution of executive elections seems straight forward and simple but unfortunately the layers of self interest, featherbedding that has permiated the organisation may not be able to be dislodged so easily. Until such time as there is accountability and transperancy and a general desire to work for the common good rather than self interest the same BS will continue. A point of interest is the recent attempt at "transperancy" the publication of a booklet outlining activities, costs and benefits. The only person that received any benefit is the publisher. Cany anybody deny a cost of publishing a book to be in the vicinity of $30,000.00? For that sort of money one would hope there is some accountability. Interesting to note the cost of the publication was not referred to in the booklet. In what other organisation or business would you allow a self operating business to run within a business where there is no accountability as to the use of cheque books, such as Chabad Youth. This is only one example that has already been alluded to by other contributors and there are many more. If all the persons reading and contributing to this blog list what they know as to be feather bedding and self interest it may embarrass the executive to either get off the pot or act.
yeshivh member | 11.06.09 - 3:26 pm | #

Chrudge.com linked to this story, news travels..
Chaim | 11.06.09 - 6:05 pm | #

Assuming that Chabad Youth is in fact a seperate entity, as has been stated numerous times in this discussion - under whose authority does it operate?

Who takes responsibility for the actions of Moshe Kahn? Why is he different than any other employee of the Yeshivah Centre?

Furthermore, what gives the Committee of Damagement the right to "give away" communally owned/purchased property to a seperate organisation??

Our kids have precious little playground space as is! The last thing that they need is to have it given away to house yet another minyan (for disgruntled individuals who can't fit into any of the four existing minyonim already on our premises)!
Der Vassertrogger | 11.06.09 - 6:53 pm | #

digging has officially begun.
they were in the playground this week drilling for soil samples.
digging | 11.06.09 - 7:39 pm | #

Der Vassertrogger, now you are askingthe right questions.Go and try to find the answers. Moshe Kahn is probably doing a good job and so he should he,s drawing a good salary not to mention his autonomous control of his own funding (anouther eg of featherbedding)Lets call a spade a spade. Would you let the lunatics run the assylum? As to the use of the word employee of the center please define the term.A crefull examination of the commings and goings extra caricular activities of some of our hebrew teachers and in one case senior jounior head would not be tolarated in any real world business situation. why do we allow it because the strata layers of sefserving featherbeding have permiated and allowed to solidify.Free executive ellections is the only answer tothe current abuse.Only when the community as a whole rise up in a single voice and say NO TO THE CRRENT BLOWHARDS and in the words of Oliver Cromwell '" you have sat in this place too long to be of any use to anybody ---- be gone.
yeshiva member | 11.06.09 - 9:28 pm | #

misuse of yeshiva land and money are the least of my problems. after 120 yrs those responsible will have to answer for themselves. my worry is the influence of daminyan and who knows what project MK thinks of next on our kids. if MK wants to reach out to wayward youth he should do it far away from our impressionable youngsters.if he claims to be doing this for the kids of anash he had better consult with their parents. all I have spoken with are appalled
mum | 11.06.09 - 9:42 pm | #

mum dont worry about 120 years ask yourself who holds the title to the subject land?You may well find out that MK or assocs have a99 year lease for what is an unreasonable rent. Who drew the lease . The next time they come knoking for adonation tell them to get a rocking.
yeshiva member | 11.06.09 - 11:08 pm | #

The neighbours have clearly not understood that the government's Building the Education Revolution grant REQUIRES the halls, libraries, etc built with such grants to be able to be hired for community use, e.g. by youth groups. Read the grant conditions. Remember a year ago when there were problems for youth at night in Carlisle St and the area generally. Well now the youth are safe under VIDEO SURVEILLANCE by neighbours instead! Thankyou neighbours. Your next mission is to make peace.
The email expresses understandable anger and frustration over Lag B'Omer and late night activity. Who wouldn't be upset. Such feelings need mediation not escalation.
Insider | 12.06.09 - 12:16 am | #

Isn't the head of the executive the father in law of the head of CHABAD YOUTH.

Doesn't this answer everything.
Levi | 12.06.09 - 12:25 am | #

I'm not sure who's right here, and there is much legitimacy to both sides.
However, ONE question: Could it be that some of the negative comments made above are coming from people that have drunk from the well of chabad youth, benefitted from their subsidised costs for camps and programs, taken advantage of their diverse programs, and are now spitting back into that well?
Mmmm...
Confused | 12.06.09 - 12:08 pm | #

( Levi)The Executive won't be around for long
ms | 12.06.09 - 12:19 pm | #

To Confused:

Benefited from subsidised whatever?

Apart from financial benefits to the PARENTS, does that automatically imply the kids benefited? Some may, and others may not have. Horses for courses.
If everything is as rosy as they would have us think, why is DaMinyan full of our apathetic kids who couldn't give two hoots about the Yeshiva? Has anybody asked the DaMinyan regulars why they have rejected the Yeshiva? Perhaps DaMinyan is a stepping stone for those on the way out but who need to do it slowly and that DaMinyan appeases their consciences?
If there are any DaMinyan regulars prepared to say or post something, go for it. I for one would love to hear what you (plural) really think. My kids are a bit young for DaMinyan just now but 4-5 years pass very rapidly and I would like to know what the heck is going on!
Nu? | 12.06.09 - 12:28 pm | #

(To Confused)Chabad Youth is a private entity the executive is not signatory to the chq account that simply not acceptable
ms | 12.06.09 - 1:56 pm | #

To: Confused - Are you suggesting that someone who has been a recipient of subsidised programs etc. has forfeited the right to protest nepotism, simony and corruption in general ? I would think that most of our community has recieved some form of subsidy or discount at some stage. Do we therefore have to tolerate the blatant abuse of power and perpetuate the cycle of "power by birthright/marriage"?

To:yeshiva member | 11.06.09 - 9:28pm - You seriously need to start using spellcheck. You are writing in Oholei Teyreh language!
Der Vassertrogger | 12.06.09 - 1:59 pm | #

DV, you have spelt 'received' incorrectly, kindly request the webmaster to rectify asap.
spellcheck | 12.06.09 - 3:49 pm | #

one thing i am not confused about anymore is confused's membership of the exec. his comment spoken like a true cool aid drinker as opposed to well of chabad youth drinker.
not confused anymore | 12.06.09 - 4:09 pm | #

der vassertrogger spellcheck smellcheck as long as you understand .maybe its me education
yeshivh member | 12.06.09 - 4:12 pm | #

if their lag b'omer bonfire behaviour is anything to go by, there is much to be concerned with at daminyan. these are seriously troubled kids who need strong leadership. is MK capable of delivering that? even if so, it must be done far from our kids who need a frum, chassidish & moral influence.
mum | 12.06.09 - 4:14 pm | #

ms has put his finger on the button re the executive not being a sinatory to the account.so what are all you readers going to do. nothing because you all winge and complain but still allow the russian mafia to control the lunatic assylum
yeshivh member | 12.06.09 - 4:17 pm | #

Russian mafia in the executive?
Name me one! Polish, Australian,Hungarian,American,maybe. But Russian?? not one.! All the good russians members of the executive are gone. They would never had allowed this travesty take place.Face facts. The Yeshivah is no longer the Rebbe's moised.It is now an institution for individuals to raise funds for their own interests and projects.
Mi Yoyde'ah | 13.06.09 - 8:19 pm | #

I think while some of the opposition from neighbours is understandable, most of the negative comments in here are simply from people that cant accept the fact that moshe kahn, daminyan and chabad youth are in fact hugely successful. Moshe kahN and daminyan has been a positive force in reaching out to ex yeshivah students, some who otherwise would have little or no connection to chabad and even yiddishkeit in general.

It is sad to say that many ex yeshivah students (myself included) were left with a negative feeling towards chabad and even yiddishkeit in general, mainly due to one particular individual who was at the helm of the boys high school for many years . His arrogant, cold and narcissistic personality turned many of us off religion and made us want to distance ourselves and our families from chabad and the yeshivah.

I don't understand this post. Moshe kahn and daminyan is one the best things that has happened to so many of us. Please recognise the good he is doing. Yeshivah should give more of its space away for projects that will ensure its future.
ex yeshivah student | 13.06.09 - 11:50 pm | #

(to ex yeshivah student)Chabad Youth is a private entity the executive is not signatory to the chq account.
He got a $3.5 million dollars as a gift.
The end result of all this is it will be a Chabad House for Chabad Youth and Young Marrieds. A private entity with a gift of a $3.5 million dollars from the Yeshiva Centre.
A Chabad House next door to Yeshiva.
That is simply not acceptable
ms | 14.06.09 - 5:18 am | #

Now settle down everyone.

What's wrong if a father in law featherbeds a son in law? Isn't that what father in laws are for?

Clever father in law too. Lined up the rest of the wooducks, then transplanted their brains with rubberstamps.

Next move? Successfully stuck an Executive Brand plate up their rear ends.

My father in law? Just a plain frum Jew who has no concept of Chochmas or being too clever by half.

Poor shmo never got anywhere!
Nu? | 14.06.09 - 10:50 am | #

The Yeshivah management should be aware of 2 things.

Firstly, that the Federal Opposition has referred the Government’s School Stimulus program to the Commonwealth Auditor-General for investigation as a result of ongoing complaints about the misuse of funds.

Secondly, that Deputy Prime Minister Julia Gillard (also the Minister for Education) has stated that any education authorities found to have breached Commonwealth guidelines would be required to return funds and could face cuts in future grants.

Therefore the Yeshivah management better be quite sure they are legally entitled under the guidelines to give the stimulus money away to Chabad Youth (a private entity) and that Chabad Youth will agree to comply with all requirements under the guidelines, such as opening the youth centre to ANY local community group for no cost.

Otherwise Yeshivah College will be required to return the $2 million and future Government grants for the Yeshivah & Beth Rivkah College could be in jeopardy.
A Carabott | 14.06.09 - 10:55 am | #

I really have no objections with Moshe Kahn having his own premises with all the wonderful projects that he has. But I still feel very strongly that the premises should be elswhere, as a chabad house in its own right. If he indeed does write his own cheques and raises his own funds then he should have his own premises, just like Mendel Groner, Simshon Yurekovich, etc.and pay his own wages.
Yeshivah Centre, is first and foremost an educational institution established for the purpose of educating children of the community, secondly a shul, and then come the other things, Chabad Youth, Bnos, other offshoots of minyanim.etc.
Furthermore, while ex yehivah student feels, justifiably, that Moshe does a wonderful job, then be aware that that there are many unhappy parents who feel that the standard of some of his activities is pretty below that what is expected from Chabad. I feel that the solution is for him to move away from the precints of the Yeshivah Centre.
Mi Yoyde'ah | 14.06.09 - 2:05 pm | #

( To Mi Yoyde'ah )
Every body agrees with that but not funded by Yeshivah Centre
ms | 14.06.09 - 3:18 pm | #

To Mi Yoyde'ah:

Having to do a Mendy or a Shimshi is a pretty big call. It's much much easier when Papa's company )our Moisod) foots the bill not only for him but a sizeable portion of the mishpoocha.

Obviously Dear Papa has a thick skin and just as obvious that, dear son in law learns well. Why should he set up an external mini institution a la Mendy & Shimshi?

The stench grows by the day, but Papa and the junta will get away with it, because they know that all we will do is just bitch about it here and that's about it.

What's required is noise, public noise, and if Papa get's up to talk simply turn turn our backs on him, shout him down or simply stage a mass walk out.

They just don't understand any other language. They have no respect for the Oilom, they owe the oilom nothing, they do as they please, when they please, how they please, what they please, with our assets.

A bunch of Ba'al Geivas masquerading as frum erlech Lubavitcher yidden?

I hate this feeling of helplessness when s**t is going down.

And to the mighty execs who are reading this blog.....@$%^*&^&$$#

I hope you feel good!
Nu? | 14.06.09 - 6:55 pm | #

I agree with ex yeshivah student above. I also went to yeshivah and I also have negative feelings towards the place as a result of that same individual.
If not for Daminyan I wouldn't step foot on 92 Hotham St. I would probably daaven at Shaarei Tefillah or Bogrim at Mizrachi.
By making such an (ugly) racket you people are basically cutting off your nose to spite your face .
another ex yeshivah student | 14.06.09 - 7:18 pm | #

I heard one person in shul on shabbos saying that she was at a Daminyan function and there were young marrieds doing illicit drugs OPENLY on ken busha!

These were not teenagers or college students, these were married men who wear kapotes, with families and children of their own, who consider themselves part of anash!!

Is this what we want going on on our premises? Is this what we want our kids exposed to?!?!?
FYI | 14.06.09 - 7:37 pm | #

Are you upset that she was talking in shul, or that she was telling you loshon hora? Either way, I agree that kids shouldn't be exposed to it.
Joe in Australia | 14.06.09 - 8:07 pm | #

It was after davening and I don't think what she said would fall under the catagory of loshan horah. I think it would be wrong of her not to have said it.
Furthermore this is not the first time I am hearing this. There is an element in our comunity that are into illicit drugs. Like I said, these are not off the drech teenagers but yungerleit who wear kappotos and have children of their own. They consider themselves to be part of Anash and on the outside appear like ordinary members of our community. They see nothing wrong with their behaviour.

Our Mashpiim must be made aware of this problem and deal with it appropriately. There is no room for drugs in our community!
FYI | 14.06.09 - 8:50 pm | #

lets face it. da minyain is looking more and more like the beis shmuel of melb although Beis S. has much more going for it.

namely that rabbi Y jacobson is an amazing force who spends his energy trying to pull up all these young people who may be heading down (not to say all of Beis S is heading down chas vsholom)and MK wont.

Daminyan (even the name should tell you the too cool crowd it is trying to attract)seems like it only reinforces the point of "we will accept you no matter how far you fall" no need to improve or to make a commitment to improve your ok as you are....... and thats not what furmkeit or chasidishkeit is.

frumkeit means growth it means commitment.... aiy you dont have it now? you smoke dope you trim and wear a kapote thats fine but you need to commit to change and well help you ..... we have a community of changers ... people who are changing... this is the message of Beis S.

it sounds like daminyan says oh you trim, smoke up wear a kapote, hate RAG are against the establishment .... thats fine well accept you. welcome on board no changes neccesary.

thats the diff. and its a big one.

enuf sead
enuf sead | 14.06.09 - 9:00 pm | #

If Indeed there are drug users in our community, we need to throw them out on the street where they belong. There should be ZERO TOLERANCE for this type of activity within our community. Let them go to St. Kilda Beach with all the other addicts where they belong!!
what is this world coming to? | 14.06.09 - 9:52 pm | #

regarding how to treat drug use/abuse: first we need to establish if drug use is against halacha....perhaps a statement from the va'ad ruchni?
drugs? | 15.06.09 - 7:41 am | #

Yes, drugs are aginst Halacha. It may not be mentioned in the torah but todays poskim prohibit it on the basis of 1)dina demalchusa dina since it is illegal and 2)it causes harm to one's guf - it is proven today that even soft drugs such as cannibus cause both mental and physical damage.

the fact of the matter is that even from a non-torah perspective drug use should not be tolerated in our community. it is an extremely dangerous habit that can mess you up up for life.
THE TRUTH ABOUT DRUGS | 15.06.09 - 2:11 pm | #

Some of you are making false accusations about a group of people in the community. Just because someone tells you somjething in shule that does not mean it is true.

You really should be spreading such lashin horah when it is completely baseless.

Shame on you. What does this do to bring moshiach.
Say no to drugs | 15.06.09 - 3:49 pm | #

oh, silly me for not realising that this is the aim and goal for all these posts....

simply to bring moshiach
cynical | 15.06.09 - 8:54 pm | #

Whereas I certainly would not want my child to smoke cannibas, I would be equally dissapointed to know that he was contributing to these blogs with such WRATH.
Get real | 15.06.09 - 10:34 pm | #

to all ,dont change the topic 1 executive ellections 2 transperancy 3 accountability . If the mohsiach came he would most probably not be accepted by the executive, vad , unless he to could establish his optus bone fides TO BE A YES PERSON '.how else can you justify the blow hard do nothings who hold office.
yeshivh member | 16.06.09 - 2:14 pm | #

How about the parent reading and contributing to these blogs?
Get real? | 16.06.09 - 2:26 pm | #

Don't change the topic? The topic was the Angela Carabott's complaints about the new Chabad Youth center. It's the people obsessed with the Yeshiva's administration who changed the topic.
Joe in Australia | 17.06.09 - 10:18 pm | #

All those who plan on donating money to Chabad Youth should be aware that according to the Australian Business Registration website at www.abr.business.gov.au, Chabad Youth is not entitled to receive tax deductible gifts. So no tax deduction for you!!
Tax Man Cometh | 18.06.09 - 9:15 am | #

To Joe in Australia,

If you had bothered to read the email you would know that the email is about the noise and dangerous behaviour that comes from the Yeshivah College late at night on a regular basis. This behaviour shows nothing but contempt for the neighbours by Yeshivah College's management as they have been aware of this issue for over a decade and have done little to resolve the situation.

We thought it was a principle of the Torah to treat your neighbours the way you would want to be treated but obviously we are incorrect in this belief.

The email was to advise that the neighbour's will no longer be silent about the mistreatment that we have suffered at the hands of Yeshivah College's management (or lack of management).

Any night can result in sleep deprivation, bedrooms lite up by flood lights, garden set on fire by illegal fireworks, using A'Beckett Street as a thoroughfare, illegal parking across driveways, threatening behaviour from youths, vomit on footpath from drunken youths or a variety of other disturbances of the peace.

Add the neighbours’ past experiences with the Yeshivah management to the building of another night time function and entertainment facility (the Chabad Youth Centre) predominantly for the same youths who have threatened neighbours and caused some of the late night noise then it can only lead to legal proceedings in court.

So, Joe in Australia, if others on this blog read the email and come to the conclusion that the problem is the Yeshivah executive’s mismanagement then maybe they are correct and it is you that has missed the point.
A. Carabott | 18.06.09 - 10:14 am | #

I wonder if there is any scientific evidence linking beard trimming to increased drug addiction? There must be given the links that are being implied.

I also wonder if some of the individuals here practice slander for a living?

I would like to clarify something which has been bothering me - the Daminyan bonfire on Lag BaOmer was not held anywhere near the Yeshiva campus. It was held at a private residence and there were no fireworks. So to those who are slinging the bat of false accusations - i congratulate you on having made a real ass of yourselves.

Moreover, to those who make sweeping statements that Daminyan members smoke dope in front of the kids - you are on drugs yourself. You have lumped a reasonably large group of people into a small select few and trounced on their integrity as people, law abiding citizens and Jews. How could you expect the rest of what you say to have any credibility?

Further, it appears that a majority of the people who are giving expert evidence about what daminyan is all about, have never spent more than a minute inside the Shule. If they did, they would be quite shocked to find a very pleasant community shule (albeit with a little too much talking sometimes), lots of tunes, both chabad and otherwise, some intuitive words of torah, some chassidus and some herring.

Now I am not denying that there are some darker elements, but this is an organisation committed to working with the youth of this community. Whether you like it or not, those things which have been complained about exist within our youth, even if Daminyan were to cease functioning tomorrow. If they weren't doing it at Daminyan, they would be doing it elsewhere. At least this way, they may daven a bit when they finish the spliff. Regardless, Daminyan certainly does not endorse this and neither is it to blame for it.

I guess i'll make another point while i'm at it. If the level of vicious slander, false accusations and character assassination is a hint of how some of you behave in the world, I dare say that our community's drug problem seems only to be the tip of the iceberg.
From another planet | 18.06.09 - 10:26 am | #

Tax Man Cometh - Do you honestly believe that by doing a simple search on the ABR website you get a definitive list of Chabad Youth entities? I think not!

Get a life and stop trying to discourage people from giving charity to a legitimate cause!
Get a Life | 18.06.09 - 10:37 am | #

AE beware!!!

http://www.theage.com.au/world/b...90617- chu7.html
blogger anonymous | 18.06.09 - 10:53 am | #

A journalist from The Australian newspaper has contact Yeshivah College, Moshe Kahn, the neighbours and parents in an effort to write a newspaper article about the use of the Government stimulus funding for the Chabad Youth building.

Moshe Kahn would not give a comment and referred the journalist to Nechama Bendet. Nechama Bendet sent the journalist an email explicitly denying that the funding would be used for Chabad Youth and categorically stated that the funding would be used to build a multi purpose hall at Yeshivah College.

As there is only one planning permit for a multi purpose hall and it was issued to Chabad Youth, this issue has been referred to the Commonwealth Auditor General.
Oh what a tangled web | 18.06.09 - 12:18 pm | #

Thank you for flattering me blogger anonymous. It is difficult to believe that anyone - other than the Yentas in our community - would care who I am. Maybe when the people who comment write their real names then bloggers will do the same (or maybe vice-versa)...
Aussie Echo | Homepage | 18.06.09 - 12:42 pm | #

Is this a picture of Aussie Echo?

[|8{)#

Turn your head sideways ...

Seriously, I can't see that it would be the end of the world if his identity were to be disclosed. None the less, if he wants to be anonymous his wishes ought to be respected. After all, he lets you be anonymous ...
Joe in Australia | 18.06.09 - 6:45 pm | #

from another planet
which false accusations?
i did not see/hear anyone accuse the daminyan bonfire of having fireworks. the point you do not seem to understand is that the inappropriate behaviour that took place there was in a private home -we know that! we do not want to bring that element onto our campus to influence our children. it's that simple! we have a right to expect the administration consult with the community before embarking on a project that will have far reaching consequences on our future as a kehilla.
the darker elements you refer to need guidance and MK should be consulting with a rov to find the balance of helping them without enabling them to influence the weaker elements.as far as daminyan not endorsing this behaviour- we encourage what we tolerate.
mum | 18.06.09 - 9:55 pm | #

well said mum. you sum it up nicely.
another mum | 19.06.09 - 2:02 am | #

The residents of the A'Beckett St FAILED in their attempt to bring this project down during the initial phases and now, like a pain in the neck, refuse to admit defeat. I guarantee many of the allegations put fourth in this letter are exaggerated and unsubstantiated and it's purpose is only to cause more pain and racket in the Yeshiva community.

For example, how is it apparent that the building will be used by Daminyan the majority of the time? Even if Daminyan do decide to move in, it will only be in Saturday's. One day a week is NOT a MAJORITY of the time.

Go ahead and continue with your threats and setting up your surveillance cameras, why not hire private investigators while your at it? Because at the end of the day you will fail again.
voice | 19.06.09 - 12:41 pm | #

Voice, the residents of A'Beckett have the right to continue to oppose in any manner they chose. Local government is political & not impartial and corruption is not uncommon. If Yeshivah management have acted above board, they have nothing to fear but if not....
so what? | 19.06.09 - 1:22 pm | #

Mum -

You just made another false accusation in implying that there was any inappropriate behaviour at the bonfire which took place in a private home... You should withdraw that because I'm pretty sure it's not halachicly permitted to make unsubstantiated claims about people in a public forum.

With regard to tolerance being considered encouragement I don't disagree but no-one in Daminyan tolerates illicit drugs being used. People do what they do and I would like to hear a logical suggestion to prevent adults from behaving in any manner which they see fit.

Once again, the focus seems to be on a small minority, not the majority. The majority of daminyan goers are decent folk. Maybe it's worthwhile expending your energy on making positive attempts to galvanise the congregation working to prevent these darker elments instead of just tarring and feathering the whole lot with hot air...
From another planet | 19.06.09 - 4:02 pm | #

if there are drugs among anash, it would not be the first time in our history according to theories that halucinogens are behind some of the more unusual tales from our historical heritage.
drugs? | 19.06.09 - 4:35 pm | #

so what? - I never said the residents of A'Beckett St don't have a right to oppose the new building. What are you trying to say exactly?
voice | 19.06.09 - 5:48 pm | #

last week i noticed a post from a concerned mother about a certain yunger-man that she claimed was involved in drugs. I am now looking at this thread and I see that aussie echo has since removed the post. I congratulate aussie echo for realizing that certain lines should not be crossed and although this forum gives people the chance to vent about general communal issues, it should not be used for character assassination. (the person was not mentioned by name yet reference was made to a certain program he used to run at yeshivah)

However it still bothers me to see that two posts in this thread that deliberately defame a certain rabbi in our community has NOT been removerd. (it also does not say his name but mentions his former position and his identity does not leave much room for imagination.)

why the double standard?
double standard? | 20.06.09 - 11:01 pm | #

Voice, you wrote:
"The residents of the A'Beckett St FAILED in their attempt to bring this project down during the initial phases and now, like a pain in the neck, refuse to admit defeat."
This is not a sports match. They have not been defeated. They don't have to admit defeat. They have the right continue to oppose the building and/or the way it is used. If you feel that it is a pain in the neck, that's your right but they also have rights!
so what? | 20.06.09 - 11:05 pm | #

If "double standard?" and others feel that a certain comment is inappropriate they can always send me an email telling me which post it is by letting me know date and time of the comment.
The reason the comment referred to was removed was because someone did send an email protesting it and on reflection I saw that they were correct.
Aussie Echo | Homepage | 21.06.09 - 12:14 am | #

ms quoting yeshiva member, thats the best.

yeshivh member that the best.
to all ,dont change the topic 1 executive ellections 2 transperancy 3 accountability . If the mohsiach came he would most probably not be accepted by the executive, vad , unless he to could establish his optus bone fides TO BE A YES PERSON '.how else can you justify the blow hard do nothings who hold office.
yeshivh member | 16.06.09 - 2:14 pm | #
ms | 21.06.09 - 10:16 am | #
cynical | 21.06.09 - 3:02 pm | #

from another planet indeed
if you reread my posts you may notice that i have been careful with my words. this is precisely because i am aware that this is a public forum and i do not want to make a chilul chabad. i will not specify names or even behaviours even though i could easily do so. i do not withdraw my claims because, unfortunately, they are not unsubstantiated.
as far as suggestions to influence the behaviour of wayward young adults, i have a few, but they would depend on the particulars of each situation. the young people of our community need strong leadership and those working with them should consult with rabbonim, local or international, for guidance in all circumstances.
my attempt to galvanise the congregation to prevent these darker elements would start with trying to keep their facilities off our kids' campus. our children need wholesome influences.
mum | 21.06.09 - 3:48 pm | #

On the issue of blogs, can anyone point to a T'shuva from their (named) Rabbi who has seen this blog and which stated

a) they were permitted to maintain such a blog in anonymity; and

b) notwithstanding a) that they were permitted to allow unmoderated and effectively unsigned comments

It seems plain to my untrained eye, that there could well be an issur of מסייע לדבר עבירה for people involved in the above. If it's the only such blog, then it could even be לפני עור לא תתן מכשול.

It is one thing to ask for higher, better halachic standards, when it comes to behaviour in shule, behaviour with neighbours, management of resources etc These are valid issues but if a blog is to be used as the mode of transport and discussion, it might be considered לשמה if those involved in such discussions were not (in)directly encouraged to engage in what the רמבם says in הלכות דעות

אמרו חכמים: שלוש עבירות נפרעין מן האדם בעולם הזה ואין לו חלק לעולם הבא, עבודת כוכבים וגילוי עריות ושפיכות דמים, ולשון הרע כנגד כולם... ולא נחתם גזר דין על אבותינו במדבר אלא על לשון הרע לבד..

Given that this is clearly mainly a Chabad populated blog, perhaps some might be encouraged as a timely החלטה to raise the bar and obtain some halachic advice about the propriety of this mode of discourse, especially for a חסיד whose mantra by definition is לפנים משורת הדין

There may be a חיוב on the part of a blog owner to not allow ad hominem or halachically questionable comments to be uploaded (using preventative moderation). To moderate, however, implies that people subject themselves to a persons judgement. For this, that person should be known, or the blog abandoned.

People are frustrated, and in many cases they have very good reason to be. After exercising their options, they should speak up but be prepared to stand by their identities and pursue safer modes of interaction. Mr Waks and Ms Carabott have apparently done so. I only say apparently because until one has spoken to an individual, one can of course still pretend to be someone else. Dealing with those issues are part of a moderators job.

Please resist the temptation to point out that others can fake an identity and as a result the suggestions above would not help. If that is indeed your strong opinion, then you are further validating the view that a blog of this nature cannot be used in a halachically mandated manner.

Is there a היתר to say lashon hora while wearing a paper bag over one's head?

We've all done it, me included. The issue is not what we have done, but what we will do מכאן ולהבא


I'm all for interaction, but I'd like to see the level raised a notch so that those who feel disaffected enough despite having gone through other avenues not only have a place to raise their concerns, but do so in a halachically mandated manner.

Is there not an internal contradiction about suggesting people be more chassidish if halacha then becomes a side issue in the process.
Isaac Balbin | 22.06.09 - 1:45 pm | #

How do we know you are in fact the real Isaac Balbin
really? | 22.06.09 - 7:29 pm | #

of course it's isaac - it's the longest post here...vdal
avadeh s'iz aizik'l | 22.06.09 - 9:07 pm | #

It's refreshing to read something so educational from someone so humble and so smart as Isaac Balbin.
The Rambam brings as a Halocho,the words

אמרו חכמים: שלוש עבירות נפרעין מן האדם בעולם הזה ואין לו חלק לעולם הבא, עבודת כוכבים וגילוי עריות ושפיכות דמים, ולשון הרע כנגד כולם

which Isaac B. quotes.

The Rambam then concludes this Halocho with the following:

ועוד אמרו חכמים: שלשה, לשון הרע הורגת - האומרו, והמקבלו, וזה שאומר עליו. והמקבלו יותר מן האומרו

The receiver of the L'shon Ho'ra is seemingly worse than the purveyor.

I suggest that logging into and reading a blog that promotes L'shon Ho'ra is the modern equivalent of המקבלו - one who receives the L'shon Ho'ra.


So I am surprised someone so concerned about L'shon Ho'ra and Halocho as Isaac B. would even be logging into sites that potentially may be full of L'shon Ho'ra.
pompass | 22.06.09 - 9:30 pm | #

great stuff guys, keep on shooting the messenger, and even more importantly, ignore the message
cynical | 23.06.09 - 8:13 am | #

AE why did you allow the post from pompass? It is only a personal attack against Isaac Balbin and serves no purpose in the discussion you initiated. Isaac used his own name and pompass could have aproached him privately if pompass felt Isaac needed a rebuke.
blog moderator? | 23.06.09 - 11:57 am | #

I cannot talk about the controversy discussed over funding of daminyan, chabad youth, mk or chabad youth. I never saw any of those accounts.

I do though wish to stand up for Moshe Kahn in regards to the ridiculous allegations against him and the shul that he so graciously puts huge amounts of time and effort into.

I have to say that as a whole, daminyan has accomplished that which the yeshiva centre never could. The number of ex collegians whom never became religious throughout their yeshiva experience, whom now do the shabbos thing solely because of daminyan ... Its sensational, and that alone justifies the existence of daminyan.

Additionally, there are lots of ex-collegians who drifted spritually as teenagers. I know for a fact that they did not go to shul on a regular shabbos... until daminyan started.

Its sorta annoying the things that people tell us off for. One simchas torah we were screamed at because a 15yr old kid came behind daminyan blind drunk and started puking everywhere. The funny thing was that he hadnt walked into daminyan, and none of the people distributing alcohol gave him even a drop, nor were they giving out to anyone under 18. Obviously this was cleared up, but somehow we get flack for having alcohol around sometimes ... even though theres often more alcohol abuse happening in the shul itself. Does inappropriate behaviour happen once in a while, sure. Can you blame moshe kahn that he brings together hundreds of uni students, and while he is entertaining them, a bunch go outside and may have done things that some people in yeshiva dont consider acceptable?

In conclusion: Is daminyan perfect ... not exactly. Are you perfect?

Long term daminyan goer
daminyan goer | 23.06.09 - 3:27 pm | #

Has anyone in Yeshivah considered that the boys do not have enough playground space as it is and that valuable playing grounds are being taken from our children?!
parent of yeshivah student | 23.06.09 - 11:08 pm | #

Moshe Has to make up his mind whether or not he is running a Chabad House which targets Uni students or if the target are the malcontents or for that matter a whole range of other unmotivated youth.
The problem is that a pot pouri, a "kasha" is developing, possibly has already developed without a clear strategy designed for any one group or the other.
Everyone is thrown into the same cholent pot!
The next questions that needs to be addressed is that if it is a Chabad House why not emulate what other Chabad Houses do, in other words, be focused and more importantly stand on his own two feet, and not on the Yeshivah or school premises.

Perhaps he should explain exactly, what does DaMinyan stands for, what are it's goals, whether or not there is a separate offshoot which directs its energies specifically at Uni students, plus a whole range of other questions which any intelligent person knows are relevant.

Stuffing oneself from a Cholent pot produces alot of unwanted after effects which linger for quite a while, unpleasantly I might add.

Without a doubt, no other Chabad House activist would be provided all the facilities including staff offices, so why the exception here?

Moshe, the department you are heading looks like a multi-layered company with all sorts tentacle like subsidiaries, too many in fact.

Please draw us a roadmap, a company profile so we can clearly see how the pyramid looks and works.

Lets see the structure, show the community how many people are working on the Yeshiva payroll supporting all your good activities then explain why are you allowed to operate differently to any other Chabad House in Victoria.

You do that, you'll score alot of much needed brownie points and win over many supporters.

Are you up to this challenge?
Nu? | 23.06.09 - 11:30 pm | #

well since moshe works on campus, and in chabad youth, its quite likely that his shul for young adults would be reaching out in both directions, both towards uni students, and towards those bochrim leaving the realm of chabad youth and going towards uni
daminyan goer | 24.06.09 - 10:26 am | #

this line sums it up

whom now do the shabbos thing solely because of daminyan

the shabbos "thing" is ok for people who are starting to connect to yiddishkeit. i hope soon they will do the tfillin thing then the kosher thing ie be on a path to growth and then "thing" turns into a life of torah and mitzvos

however the shabbos "thing" is not ok for most of the yungerleit and bochrim ..... for them its an excuse to move away from frumkeit and chasidishkeit in a nice wram environment ...... not a path of growth
not confused anymore | 24.06.09 - 11:01 am | #

I was once told by a person who previously ran Chabad Youth that in the course of his work he had contact with University students. He started arranging shiurim and other Jewish activities for them. After a while he was advised by a Yeshivah executive member that he job was to work as a Tzach direcor with primary and high school students and that his brief did not extend to university age kids.

Since we now have at least 2 people in the community doing work with Uni students why has this policy changed and, by focussing on Uni students, is this to the detriment of the school age kids?
job? | 24.06.09 - 11:16 am | #

QUOTE:"Has anyone in Yeshivah considered that the boys do not have enough playground space as it is and that valuable playing grounds are being taken from our children?!
parent of yeshivah student"

Has anyone ever considered doing something about this up until now? All of sudden when someone wants to actually use this space for something productive people feel the need to kick a stink.

In fact, I heard that based on the current plans the kids playing ground will almost double in size from what it is now.
facts | 24.06.09 - 3:24 pm | #

The apple doesn't fall to far the the tree. Daminyan is only a product of the Yeshivah Centre.

"The problem is that a pot pouri, a "kasha" is developing, possibly has already developed without a clear strategy designed for any one group or the other.
Everyone is thrown into the same cholent pot! "

Yeshivah Shule, Yeshivah College and Beth Rivkah do the same thing!

"Perhaps he should explain exactly, what does DaMinyan stands for, what are it's goals, whether or not there is a separate offshoot which directs its energies specifically at Uni students, plus a whole range of other questions which any intelligent person knows are relevant."

Maybe Yeshivah Centre could also explain?
Avos and Toldos | 24.06.09 - 5:21 pm | #

I have had a question for some time now regarding Da Minyan. Did Moishe establish it as part of his outreach to uni students/non frume ex-collegians and that its innception was to create a place where people like this could be brought into a "Chabad House" environment with the purpose of bringing them close to yiddishkeit. Or was the purpose of Da Minyan to create a community for uni students/ex-collegians/young ANASH.

If its purpose was for uni students/non-frume ex collegians, then I agree it should not be on Yeshiva premises, for all intensive purposes it is a Chabad House built for outreach and not built for the furtherance of the Yeshiva community and saying that should be off Yeshiva premises, as is so with every Chabad House.

If its purpose is the later, i.e. a shul for young ANASH then the Yeshiva Centre is saying that this is the future of Chabad in Melbourne and it makes perfect sense that it should be on Yeshiva premises.

As sad as it is, I think this is the future of Chabad, looking worldwide- Crown Heights, London, Melbourne etc. this is clearly the direction that Chabad is heading in. Cut beards with Kapotes and foul mouths with televisions, with bars and poker and husbands and wives mixing with short skirts- THIS IS THE NEW CHABAD.

Chabad has become a shell of its former glory, Shluchim on the majority are only really concerned with the way Chabad presents to the outside world, on the majority not really upholding chassidishe hanhogois or pnimisdike avoidah. And others who are not shluchim on the majority couldn't give a damn about the Rebbe's hoiros, a clear demonstration of this is that even the more 'chassidish' ones have tv's in their homes.

Having said all this- why shouldn't Da Minyan be on Yeshiva premises, this is the future of Yeshiva, this is where Yeshiva is going and this is where Chabad is going.

If you don't want your children influenced by this then leave Chabad, send your kids to school at Addas. Don't bother sending them overseas, the same problem is their also.

This is a cultural shift in Chabad.
Just like there was a major cultural shift between the Chassidim of the Rebbe and the Chassidim of the Frierdiker Rebbe, and there was a cultural shift between the Frierdiker Rebbes Chassidim and the Alter Rebbes Chassidim, so to there is a cultural shift between the Rebbes Chassidim and the post-Gimmel Tammuz Chassidim.
Chossid | 27.06.09 - 11:58 pm | #

this last comment of Chossid 27.06.09 - 11:58 pm is the most chilling on this whole blog.
zephaniah waks | 28.06.09 - 4:10 pm | #

(toChossid | 27.06.09 - 11:58 pm | )Chabad Youth is a private entity the executive is not signatory to the chq account.

The end result of all this is it will be a Chabad House for Chabad Youth and Young Marrieds.
A Chabad House next door to Yeshiva.
That is simply not acceptable
ms | 14.06.09 - 5:18 am | #
AS | 28.06.09 - 8:47 pm | #

to ms.

Two points to your comment.

1) You claim Chabad Youth is a private entity the executive is not signatory to. I assume you mean that it is a seperate legal entity?

What evidence do you have to this effect, that you claim it with such authority?

2) If as you say Da Minyan is for young married lubavitchers then how is it any different from the young married minyan which was in the mezzanine a few years ago? Did you have a problem with a piece of yeshiva property being given to another minyan then?

Also, if it is for Anash i.e. young married lubavitchers then by nature it is not a Chabad House it is a young married minyan of yeshiva, just like Ohr Reb Zalman was. Dont get me wrong, I am not entirely convinced that the purpose of Da Minyan is for ANASH, if it is not then Moishe should take control of it and kick the Lubavitchers out and open up somewhere off Yeshiva premises.
Chossid | 28.06.09 - 9:26 pm | #

(Chossid)I mean chabad youth is a private entity the cheques are not issued by the yeshiva office. MK has his
own receipt book and his own cheque book and the executive is not a signatory and no accountability
That is simply not acceptable
ms | 28.06.09 - 11:10 pm | #

Firstly, Chabad Youth is a subsidiary of Yeshiva Centre, therefore any cheque or receipt, received or issued eventually ends up in the books of Yeshiva, and in the system whose accounts are reviewed by the executive.

Are you aware of the financial review process which occurs in Yeshiva. So how do you know the executive are not aware of his activities?
Chossid | 29.06.09 - 11:53 am | #

(Chossid)I"m a insider you are totally
WRONG. Chabad youth is a private entity the cheques are not issued by the yeshiva office. MK has his
own receipt book and his own cheque book and the executive is not a signatory and no accountability
That is simply not acceptable
ms | 29.06.09 - 5:33 pm | #

He may have his own cheque book but the executive would still review his payments and income.

DO you think the executive reviews every cheque which leaves the yeshiva office?
Chossid | 30.06.09 - 9:49 am | #

att: Chossid 27.06.09 - 11:58 pm

if u were truly a chossid you would never talk that way about Chabad( which represents a chassidus founded by the Alter Rebbe and continued through all the Rebbeim till the Rebbe).
There are many letters to be found in Igros Kodesh( see Igros Kodesh, Volumes 12,16,17 etc.) in which the Rebbe addresses those who complain and bemoan the effectiveness of their activities and state of their communities. The Rebbe's response is always forceful, stressing the importance of positive thinking and action and NEVER giving up.
Yes, there are problems with some of the youth and even some of the shluchim in Chabad, but aside from the fact that there are many honest, earnest bochurim and shluchim in Chabad today ( might i also add, that these are from the most dedicated ppl. in the WORLD, and although they might not be on the level of previous generations, that's called YERIDAS HADOROS),the solution is surely not to collectively dismiss them as the 'NEW CHABAD' (effectively throwing our hands in the air in resignation), but rather going out and doing something positive to help change the situation (i.e. finding some time to get personally involved with these unfortunate youth).
Good luck with your future activites!
dave | 01.07.09 - 2:30 pm | #

Dear Dave

I didn't "bemoan" anything, I merely stated what the state of Chabad is, I offered no opinion as to my views on this matter. As to what you say that "there are still earnest bochurim and shluchim" and you throw some irrelavant maarei mekoimois from Igros at me, shows me something interesting. You are absolutely oblivious to the current state of Lubavitch- the fact that there stil exists a few earnest bochurim and shluchim is the biggest proof that Chassidus has gone down the toilet. You ask me how I could be a chossid but speak the way that I do, I ask you a better question, how can you have a movement whose entire philosophy is based around pnimiusdike avoida, hisboinenus, iskafia, but what you are left with is "there are still earnest bochurim" a handful of people in this movement actually practice or strive to practice any of this.

People are very good at qouting maarei mekoimois especially those of the Rebbe, as by doing this they avoid making themselves mechuyev in anything. "The Rebbe said it" very nice the Rebbe said it, but do you do anything about it? The Rebbe said not to have a tv, do you do that? In fact how much of what the Rebbe said do you do? Do you go on mivtzoim, do you have meaningful interactions with other yidden when you go to work, or do you talk about the footy?

We have become a generation of academic lubavitchers, like an academic at uni, you can have a lecturer at University telling you about tzimtzum and atzmus and Gevurah and Chesed, then at lunch time he goes to McDonalds.

That's what we are, we learn what the Rebbe says, we know what Chassidus says, we even throw maarei mekoimos at people as some kind of a proof of something, but we still go to the footy, we still watch tv and dress like shgotzim.

From what it appears to me you agree with me that "yeridas hadoirois" is occuring, all i'm saying is that project that concept a little bit further, say 20 years and you don't really end up with to much left. Oh sorry, we might still be able to qoute some maarei mekoimos.
Chossid | 05.07.09 - 9:29 pm | #

(Chossid | 30.06.09 - 9:49 am.)He may have his own cheque book but the executive would still review his payments and income.
You are totally WRONG.
Chabad youth is a private entity the cheques are not issued by the yeshiva office. MK has his
own receipt book and his own cheque book and the executive is not a signatory and executive don't review his payments and income.IT'S a private entity
ms | 05.07.09 - 10:56 pm | #

The time has come for MK to be faced with a choice, Daminyan or Chabad Youth.
They dont have the same goals or direction and the Youth of Yeshivah College (our kids) need a bit more Toichen than is currently on offer. Mks premesis should be moved off campus and an independant person, employed by the center should run Tzach(remember that old organisation?)
concerned | 06.07.09 - 9:35 pm | #

I remember Tzach, and I also remember the single office and single officer who was responsible for the activities of both Tzach and Chabad Youth. I think it would be great if the positions were genuinely separate - but you'd have to fund and support an extra officer.
Joe in Australia | 08.07.09 - 6:33 am | #

the director of tzach was one person who also had to teach a certain amount of hours a week. all of a sudden the same job has become a six person job.
Just speak to Yirmi Lever or Mendy Gorman or others to get a feel what their job was.
It included mesibbos shabbos, chabad youth, camps etc. etc. and teaching in school, and it was capably run by one person.
one man job became 6 | 09.07.09 - 11:45 pm | #

Attention Chossid | 05.07.09 - 9:29 pm
I don't know who you are, but I am someone who often sees a larger picture of chabad, because I frequent crown heights at all different times of the year. What I mean, is firstly) crown heights is a much arguer and more established community than melbourne, and secondly) it is a town to which guests of Lubavitchers from all over the world come to visit etc.
All I can tell you, is that I am familiar with all of the people to whom your descriptions are relevant. So? They're not Chabad. Mah Hakesher? But go into 770, sees HUNDREDS of bochurim learning and davenning. Go into kollel, see hundreds of yungerleit davenning and learning. Go around manhattan on a friday afternon and see hundreds of people doing honest mivtzoim. Attend communal farbrengens, there are hundreds of chassidishe and frum anash, caring for their personal avodas hashem, their families and their community.
So, if you wish, you may leave together with your bygone chabad. But I suggest you get in touch, acquire a mashpia, learn how to think, create an atmosphere, affect another few individuals, and 'tracht gut!
And, to Tzfania Waks, who received 'chills' down his back when he read your comment, take a pill. Calm down. Be Chabad. Use sechel. Things are ok. Continue doing what you've always been doing, keep striving to become better and better, and "gam al zeh na'avor"!
L'Chaim!
Shmuel | 10.07.09 - 7:54 am | #

When I were a lad (and had t' work down t' pit 23 hours a day) Tzach and Chabad Youth were run by one person. Then the positions were split, under Yirmi Loebenstein (as I recall) with Ronnie Tatarka taking over Chabad Youth. And since the job of Chabad Youth was only half a position, Ronnie was required to teach. And then Yirmi left, and Ronnie was now responsible for both positions despite being funded for only one. Tada!

Kol hakovod to Ronnie and his predecessors and successors who valiantly managed to keep some vestige of Tzach and Chabad Youth running from a shoebox of an office with a budget that was less than many gevirim spend on their annual holiday. Now Chabad Youth and Tzach have far more resources and they also do much more. I remember when Mesibos Shabbos' budget barely stretched to a few bottles of soft drink and some plastic cups. I like things better this way.
Joe in Australia | 11.07.09 - 4:32 am | #

TZACH and CHABAD YOUTH joe those were the days my friend .... fond recollections now we are more sophitocated the budget is unknown as there is no accountability in any operation , business where an employee has autonomous unfetered control of the cheque book can only lead to suspision. The failure of the system is simply that we do not have free access io ellections .WAKE UP YIDDEN dont allow the malaise to continue .
yeshiva member | 11.07.09 - 8:47 pm | #

Tzach and Chabad Youth were run by one person Look to-day A private entity. established over 40 years ago, Chabad Youth is a vibrant community-based organisation offering a wide range of social, cultural and remedial services to thousands of young people. With the assistance of a dedicated team of volunteers, Chabad Youth has become a steady-growing and extensive association that is committed to instilling and preserving in Jewish Youth a strong sense of identity and pride in our Jewish heritage and culture
ms | 13.07.09 - 4:37 pm | #

I still disagree that it is a private entity.

Just because MK has a cheq. book and issues receipts does not make it a private entity.

When you go to Coles they can accept your money and pay you refunds, issue invoices, purchase stock etc.

BUT they are still a subsidiary of the Wesfarmers group. Which means Wesfarmers still controls the actions of Coles. So whilst Coles may appear to be independant and most of their operations are independant, they are still controlled by the bigger group.

I am guessing it is the same thing with Chabad Youth, they are probably a subsidiary of the Yeshiva Centre, who may issue their own receipts and receive payments, but are ultimatley controlled by Yeshiva Centre i.e. the Executive.

I have not seen any evidence that this is not the case.
Chossid | 14.07.09 - 1:53 pm | #

(Chossid)You are totally WRON check this with the ASIC and you will see for your self that you are wrong.
It's a MK private entity.
and not controlled by Yeshiva Centre or the Executive
ms | 14.07.09 - 5:03 pm | #

What's the comparison with Coles & Westfarmers? They have transparency and reporting procedures, nepotism is non existant, shareholder meetings take place and ineffective directors can be voted out, just as they were voted in. When was the last time anyone saw the accounts of the Yeshiva? Or ChabadYouth? The executive don't even have a proper handle on the Y finances, you think they have a clue about the ins and outs of CY? But then we'll never know. Accountability is a dirty profane term, to be avoided at all costs. True accountability will bury the current mob, and no one likes to be buried. So the prevalent attitude is, up yours Charlie!
Nu? | 14.07.09 - 9:00 pm | #

ms, I did a search with ASIC and came up with nothing. There is no entity registered with the name "Chabad Youth" at all.
FYI | 15.07.09 - 1:28 pm | #

You wouldn't find it registered with ASIC. It's a business name, not a company. Try this search.
Joe in Australia | 15.07.09 - 7:41 pm | #