Please leave a comment.
I'm not going to flip you shit for your opinions. You are certainly entitled to them.
For me, 9/11 is not just another day. It is the day that I lost a family member and some friends. It is the day my father watched some of his comrades fall. 9/11 is every single day in my house, because we have been affected by it well beyond the occurance of 5 years ago.
My husband is from Israel. He is used to waking up as a small boy to the sound of air raid sirens. His entire family is still over there. So, we aren't only affected by the American news media when it comes to the wars in Israel. They pick a few days of the month to sensationalize a few stories. We live with the fear of his father and mother and brother being killed every single day.
I realize that most people are not affected by 9/11, just as most are not affected by the wars that rage in the middle east.
And, do not think that it doesn't chap my ass that most Americans pick ONE day a year to remember to be patriotic. It does. 5 years later and we have become more jaded than ever before. But, I have a thought.
We remember Pearl Harbor with its own legal holiday. I wasn't affected by those events, were you? We remember Martin Luther King Day with his own legal holiday. I am not affected by his death, other than it being tragic, no different than any one elses death. Columbus day? We are celebrating the man who stole the land that belonged to others? Doesn't affect me...but I'm sure it pisses off a few native Americans.
I suppose my point is, we can find a lot of things throughout history that do and do not affect us on the whole. But, what we do choose to remember is valuable nevertheless. It is part of our history as Americans. 9/11 (and not just the people who died in NYC, but those in the planes and in Washington as well) needs to be remembered for what it was...
a wake up call that the United States can no longer afford to be as ambivalent to the horrors of international terrorism. We are just as vulnerable as any other country. We got that handed to us on a silver platter.
I hate George Bush. Hate the man with a passion because he took a very tragic event and used it to forward his own agenda. That much, we agree about.
But, forgive those of us who feel compelled to remember 9/11 for various and sundry reasons. If I had a friend whose wife was killed in a tragic accident, I would understand their need to mourn year after year, Avitable. It doesn't mean your life doesn't move forward.
I lost a son 10 years ago. Every year, I mourn his passing...I grieve the loss but now, I can get through my days without thinking of it constantly.
5 years is a very, very short amount of time to demand that people "heal and move on".
What if it were your wife? Your children?
Just sayin'.
CP.
9/11 was dramatic. 9/11 needs to be remembered.
What 9/11 shouldn't be tho is a political weapon to brainwash and paranoia the nation. Or even a weapon allowing everything.
I deeply feel for the victims and their family. I loathe how your nation deals with it tho.
Actually I had the same feeling when I lived in Germany. Countries CAN'T deal with history. Can you imagine that even today German adolescents still get brainwashed with a guilt-feeling?!
WTF! Why should they be ashamed for the errors of their grand-parents made (obeing orders)?
Surely a lesson has to be learned out of what happened. But not how concerned countries try to manage it, deal with it. Constantly reminding will not help the healing procedure.
CP: Thanks for your message. When it's someone like yourself, who has obviously given it a great deal of thought and has a personal resonance with the event, it makes more sense. If they want to make a national holiday from 9/11 and give everyone the day off of work, that's cool. But it's what 9/11 represents - something that happened almost instantly, thanks to Bush - that I really hate.
Franky: I agree. And I should stress that the people who suffered a personal loss should still have some grief 5 years later, but how we've dealt with it as a nation is embarrassing.
Great points made by all.
Franky, love. You know I am a jew girl. My parents and grandparents have feelings of loathing towards most Germans. I find this to be ridiculous, because while yes, I lost a great grandfather during the Holocaust, it was no one that I associate with now who caused this tragedy.
People have to keep things in perspective.
My husband gets profiled at the airport ALL the time. He looks middle eastern (he is - Israeli) and his name is Syrian and Hebrew. He knows this automatically makes people suspect of him. He takes it in stride. He knows it is because of 9/11 (incidentally, he is getting on a plane tomorrow, of all days. Don't think I am not freaking the hell out about that!) but he is also aware that he needs to understand that security has only become strangulating in order to safeguard our country.
He's much better about it than I would be. I would be bitch-slapping TSA at every opportunity.
CP.
Lemme add something...
I am VERY embarassed by how this country chooses to commemorate events like this.
I am VERY embarassed that we are over in Iraq right now.
I am VERY embarassed that George Bush is our President.
All that aside? I love my country. I love my hometown of NYC. I love 99.99% of my fellow Americans, whether they were born here or not.
I just don't like that we select days (memorial day, veterans day, september 11th) to decide to be patriotic.
CP.
Actually I just remembered the 7/7 bombings of the London Subway/Tube/Underground. Surely they weren't as tragic, but I was in London and life was a hell in the coming days.
Imagine how 4 mortal bombings within 20 minutes got remembered?
2 minutes of silences. Actually I must admit I had almost missed it. Even the blogosphere majorly forgot the whole thing. A 'We won't forget it, but life goes on' is what is needed.
Actually exactly how the US citizens reacted in the days after 9/11. And how most freetime bloggers behave.
And I don't want to get political, I do know that a super power needs to have an ennemy, but as well the US as the UK Foreign diplomacies have been a major disaster.
Since ... ???
1947 ???
And especially last 10 years not one intervention of both nations was justified and/or succesfull. No Irak still isn't won. Nor is Afghanistan.
Why do I say this? 1989, the Fall of Communism (bear with me for the capital C you Americans :-P).
2006, Eastern Europe. Many former communist countries vote democratically more and more communist governments.
Only the students who had the possibility to taste the Western world in the years after, have the power to teach today new teachers and new values. The actual citizens of those countries prefer their security. Security of having at least some food. Some food instead of capitalism and no money to pay for food.
(sorry, long comment)
In 1981, my parents went to visit Roumania. I still can remember how people were cueing up 2 hours for some pounds of (almost rotten) peaches, but at least they had some.
In 1993, I went to visit the after-Ceaucescu Roumania, just out of curiosity. What I saw was exactly what I found in the shops in Western Europe. Multi-national brands had landed. And maintained their price policy. Grocery stores were filled up, but no one could afford the new standard. More people were poor, differently poor.
It takes up to 3 generations before helped countries like (former) Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, but also nations like Ruanda and Zaire just to name a few, might even HAVE a chance to convert to our thinking patterns.
Untill that day the US/UK ARE NOT ALLOWED to leave those countries. Hand the UN power over to nations like Poland? No.fucking.way!
Solidarnosc was only beginning of the 80s. Reaching his target in 1989.
Russia? Gimme.a.break.
Glasnost and Perestroika are further away than they have ever been.
(cutting comment because of 'too many links)
(part two)
The best American president in a matter of foreign policies in the last 30 years?
Reagan. No kidding. The world would have been totally different without him. Actually did you know that Afghanistan was already 'part of' the Reagan Doctrine?
Further presidents? Bush & Bush, internationally failures. Clinton? Christmas 1998?
We must forget 1918 and 1945. Forget what power nations gained in those years. And start thinking of stabilizing our social standards before we become poorer than former poor countries.
I really do hope the next US president will be a female, and hopefully not a ghetto fighter, but someone with social thinking patterns and an economical brain as well...
(and now I MIGHT shuttup)
CP,
yes I do know.
Actually I have had many contacts with Jewish people in my life. I still do. More than people actually (can) think.
Origins, religion or whatsoever, I couldn't care about anything less.
I have worked (opened a 300sqm front end restaurant/bar) for Orthodox Albanians.
I have worked (learned many tricks from) for a (hang on here) Jewish boss in Amsterdam with Iraq-Kurd roots. I have participated at Yum Kippur with him and his family. I fasted and it was one of the deepest experiences in life I have ever had.
I ran away from him and his family the day he said me it was time to find a woman for me.
I have worked with Chinese people in 1998 when I got discovered on the ABN-AMRO server and have been a while long one of the first organized spammers.
I couldn't care what the roots of someone are. Or what religion you adhere to. I will respect anyone and anyone's thoughts and values, as long as they respect me.
I am a member of the species human, so are you, so are all of us.
And I think everything should be memorized, remembered and forgotten. DO I have to hate my fellow German colleague because his grand father obeyed to orders, orders he actually didn't want to obey to?
No.way! I never look back in the pas of people. But I do respect their past. 
I think this was a very well written post, Avitable. I agree with some of it, at the same time as disagree with some of it.
I think we all will choose to remember (or not remember) 9/11 in the way that fits our lives best. And none of us will be wrong for it.
I choose to remember the people who died. Have more people died in Iraq? Of course, it doesn't effect me, but it's still tragic.
A good friend of mine worked in the financial district and for whatever reason, she was in Midtown that day for a meeting with a different law firm. We waited 2 1/2 days to finally make contact with her to make sure she was OK. I was convinced she was dead.
My opinions on the political front of this is quite ignorant compared to the other commenters here. So I won't even attempt to get into a discussion on it. I'm not all that political. I don't pay attention to all the politics. I'm paying attention to the loss of life from that day.
I don't want to remember the "tragedy" anymore. I want to remember the people. The people who meant something to someone else.
My best friend died in June of 2005. I will remember him on that day for the rest of mine. It doesn't mean that I haven't moved through my grief journey. Just means I'm remembering someone I love.
Anyway, sorry I rambled. 
Very well said Avitable. I don't think I have a whole lot to add.
Blasphemy. You will burn in Hell, you insensitive and uncaring jerk. Jesus and George W. Bush will ha ha ha ha haaa. Sorry, I wanted to take a contrary position, but I couldn't do that with a straight face.
Basically, I agree with you. I try to take a little time to reflect on 9/11, not only on the attack that took place but in the lessons our society didn't learn and the generally moronic way people allow themselves to be led.
But it should definitely be made into a federal holiday. Of course, I'll take a day off in support of the Holocaust or the Trail of Tears. Work = bad. No work = good.
You're right, I disagree.
Grant, you're an idiot.
Never mind.
I fucking hate you...you're a heartless jerk...I can't believe you call yourself an American, and other hateful things, etc. etc.
/hateful comment
Av,
Agree with some of what you say, disagree with other parts.
It will be years, it at all, before Iraq is a functioning nation again. I'm torn about this but I think we have a responsibility there and will have to be there for a long time (Colin Powell's Pottery Barn rule; "you broke it, you bought it").
Even if things do end well in Iraq (which I admit is a longshot), the run up to war, the treatment of prisoners, and the failure to properly plan for security in the absence of a working Iraqi government are all failures that President Bush should be held accountable for in the history books.
The toppling of the Taliban in Afganistan was a) justified, and b) a positive result for that country.
I don't think Americans are as sheep-like as you think Av, I tend to give us a bit more credit than that.
This is a big, messy country with profound diversity throughout. But I've got to stay optimistic about our ability to get through this.
I share your concern about the state of our freedoms, but it's come down to liberty vs. safety for folks, and the majority are looking for safety. I can't say I agree, but I understand.
And there is a lot of intolerance going around, left and right, but that's been true during every tumultuous period in our history.
We've survived Nixon, Harding, Grant and Buchanan (that one was close); we'll survive this Presidency.
From the perspective of a libertarian I would agree with a few of your concerns relative to our actions after 9/11.
But the well-reasoned arguments in your screed are left a little empty for me when set beside the vitriol that they lead you to.
Am I to think that it isn't hard to understand why you wouldn't place any special emphasis on the memory of 9/11, since the people in those buildings were all sheep anyway?
There is no question in my mind that our leadership squandered an opportunity to evolve our place in the world positively after 9/11. We need to remember that there are, after all, French troops supporting a broad coalition in Afghanistan even now. In fact the world supported - and still supports - action against the Taliban there and the al Qaida that pulls their strings. There is no doubt that our actions and policies not only took assets away from the trail of al Qaida and bin Laden, but they also reversed the trend of goodwill the tragedy of 9/11 engendered in other countries towards us. And what could have been a positive sea change in international politics became a negative one.
I think, Adam, that it is wrong to paint the way we remember or feel about 9/11 based on how your political opinion may be formed because of those mistakes. I hope I said that clearly.
I see a difference between the way average people on the street think about the tragedy and the way it is "used" by political interests. And I would point out that the using of the event for political advantage is not the sole domain of one side of the aisle or the other.
These were mothers and fathers who just went to work one day. They had children. They had hopes for their future. They were similar in every way to the innocents who have died in Iraq and elsewhere since, but for one thing. They were the target, not an accident.
I think there is a big difference.
RW, I tried not to make it feel like I didn't care that people died because I think people are generally sheep. I still care that they died. I just don't get emotional about it or care any more than I do about people dying from starvation or gunfire or anything else across the world. The fact that they were American doesn't mean I should care more for them vs. other people. I consider the innocents who died in Iraq to be just as much of a target as anyone who died during 9/11.
I agree that political advantage has been taken by both sides. I'm as disgusted with the far left as I am with the far right. I just can't care about something like 9/11 when it is being propagandized at the expense of liberty.
Kal, if it really were liberty vs. safety, that would make sense. But it's not. It's the illusion of safety vs. liberty. I think that's the big difference that really rubs me the wrong way.
Denise, I fucking hate you too!
Rik, thanks. I'd like to hear more about your opinion on the subject, as a firefighter.
Grant, you should push the 9/11 federal holiday initiative.
Virginia and Soda, thanks for the add'l comments.
"I consider the innocents who died in Iraq to be just as much of a target as anyone who died during 9/11."
Exactly why I can't go along with all you say. The need to differentiate screams at us here.
It isn't a matter of saying one is more or less concerned because of the death of a specific nationality involved. Tragedy is an absolute. The problem here, though, is that you and I feel betrayed because bullets and bombs built from our tax dollars have hurt and killed and maimed bystanders. Women and children. The wrong man. And so on. It bothers us. It even angers us because that's our tax dollars that bought that. And we can make a good case about why we are angry about it.
But I'm not talking about who the victims are, their nationality is not the issue. Nor am I suggesting that we create a scale from one to ten expressing the depth of a tragedy. I'm talking about the people who plotted and supported the attack on the WTC who remain elated with their actions. They celebrate it.
We may have Joe Shlunk and Lefty Tom Muggles at some trailer park in Puff Bluff cheering every time they see a dead Muslim child, but you and I both know those two would be lowlifes.
The ability to differentiate is one aspect of rational behavior. To make your point you can't afford to abandon reason in favor of a lack of intellectual rigor for the sake of a quick, snappy answer that will be popular in the blogosphere.
I'd be nicer about that but, you know, tact is for pussies.
RW, you make an excellent point. The people who perpetrated the attacks do indeed revel in the deaths that occurred.
I think, though, that I have a lower opinion of Americans in general. I think that more of them cheer dead Muslims than you think.
And I never go for the quick, snappy answer.
damn, you're brave to post this! I agree though. I mean, 9/11 was truly tragic BUT not any more tragic than how people die EVERY day. How come only people who die in 'bulk' are truly commemorated???
A day in the life of an Afgan woman.
This comes from a friend of mine who is a surgeon for the US Army. He is currently deployed to Afghanistan to help their country and people. Here is how the 220 live.
"Three days ago (Thursday night), we received a woman in labor from a remote town. We were told prior to her arrival that she was seizing (presumably from high blood pressure), and had no idea of how severe the situation actually was. We didn’t even know that she was pregnant with twins until we were in the OR. When she arrived, she was not breathing, she had a faint pulse, and her blood pressure was too low to measure. One of her babies was partially born in the breach position, with the head unable to pass through the birth canal. Later, after further questioning of the father, the baby was stuck there for over 6 hours. The general surgeon delivered the first baby from the birth canal, & then performed a c-section for the second. Both babies were limp, cold, pale, & lifeless. Compared to seeing my own children delivered - where they were full of life, moving, cried quickly, etc., this was disturbing. The babies had probably been dead for hours by the time they got to us. The worst part is that the mother had hemorrhaged severely, and we were unable to help her either. This was a very sad night for everyone. Even more bizarre was seeing the father’s absence of a reaction to the news that his wife & two unborn children were all dead - maybe he knew already how bad the situation was from watching her over the past several hours - or maybe it’s so common-place for women to die in childbirth over here that it was no surprise. I’m not quite sure what the reason is, but for him to show absolutely no emotion just didn’t seem natural in any case."
As racist as it may be, I am grateful for the country I live in.
Av, I never said they were getting safety, I said they're looking for safety, and that's why the voted for W and they'll probably keep a Republican congress.
RW: extraordinarily well said. As usual.
Sorry if this overstays your kindness in allowing me to speak, but - again - the difference is that if we could prove that policymakers specifically made targets of innocents and celebrated it, we would have a case to bring those actions to trial. But if we were to attempt the same in countries and places run by Taliban-like structures - we'd be executed.
Dude, Somalia just shut down a radio station for playing love songs.
The irony here is that you would be among the first to go if you lived in the arch-conservative universe of radical Islam. Right after a woman's right to chose or persue an education.
Dawn, thanks for the comment.
Jason, that's not racist at all. However, you're also describing something that could easily happen in an inner-city emergency room in the heart of America, too.
Jason and RW: Don't think that I'm unappreciative of the rights and freedoms that Americans have. I certainly am, which is why I'm more outraged at the removal of some of those freedoms in the name of security and the war of terrorism. I am completely aware of how well we have it here, and I know that if our policymakers did actually target innocents, we as Americans wouldn't stand for it, but that's no excuse for the dismissive attitude that the White House has towards the Constitution.
Once you regard the Constitution and the Bill of Rights as suggestions instead of mandates, we head down a very dark road.
"...I hate what America has become since 9/11. "Nine Eleven" has become a an excuse for racism, discrimination, stripping our civil liberties, and has caused more hatred for Americans and the US than existed prior to the attacks."
Well said.
Good post, Avi. I agree with a lot of it.
I need to comment about the one to ten tragedy scale RW mentioned. We don't need to create one, it's already been done by the government and the media. According to those who know what's best for us, 9/11 is a full-blown ten, but what about the soldiers in Iraq who've died? It seems like they get a single 30 second blurb and are soon forgotten.
It's perfectly ok for a memorial/tribute where they name off all the victims of 9/11, yet if Nightline airs a program where they name off all the soldiers killed in Iraq, it's labeled as antiwar propaganda.
Something is rotten in Denmark.
Very well stated post, but I didn't expect any less coming from you. I agree with some of what you said, and I disagree with some of it as well.
I, too, am embarrassed of Bush, our involvment in the war, and the ways in which our government has used this event for their own purposes. It saddens me, that Americans only choose to be patriotic on days such as this.
There are people close to me who lost loved ones on that day. My heart breaks for those.
Mist, thank you.
Niteowl, that is a big problem - why do we ignore the fact that we've lost as many soldiers as were killed in 9/11?
Jade, thanks for the visit and comment.
Avi, I used to have you blogrolled.
I used to come by here religiously.
But after THIS? You self righteous, spawn of satan son of a bitch.
"According to Jim" is TOTALLY funny. And I am NOT a sheep.
Fucker. I can't believe you're knocking a Belushi.
(stomping off to find a site where I can order DVDs of "According to Jim" and have them shipped to Avitable. That will teach that rot bastard...)
Well said, Avi, as usual.
I participated in the 2996 tribute, because I felt that the individual people had been lost sight of in all the propaganda. I feel the same about the people who have died for the sake of this country's need for revenge. And since I have friends who have served/ are serving in Afghanistan and Iraq, I do realise the cost in lives,civilian and military, American and non, every day. It's shameful, what we've become.
Fuck you, too, Avi.
Britt, I heart you for your sense of humor. You rock.
Tracy, that's an excellent reason to do the 2996 tribute, and one that didn't occur to me.
Poppy, thanks!
Well... to each their own...
Av, the thing that moved me most about the person I got in the 2,996 tribute was his wife, and the work she's done to try and speak for peace.
That seems to me to be a worthy remembrance.
Oh, and screw you (I'm too polite) .
A,
I think you would be hard pressed to find any place in America that a woman would spend six hours with a child half way out of her, but I could be wrong. And you talk about appreciating the rights and freedoms that we have, I would encourage you to go and experience some of the otherside, not just South Daytona, and I think your sympathy and emotional connection to those that are truly suffering in this world will increase.
Our country sucks ass, true, but they all do and the answer isn't a different government, fewer or more rules, adherence to one or another flawed system, the answer is... shit I don't know, and what kind of pretentious ass would I be to even suggest that I did. I do like Mark Twain’s idea, “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our [Americans] people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things can not be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”
So are we going to get together around Christmas?
Dog, I left a comment on your site.
Kal, I agree. Screw you too!
Jason, not with a child half way out of her, but I'm sure you could find a couple where the woman doesn't realize she's pregnant until she's about to give birth because she's uneducated, and the babies are stillborn to the relief of the father.
I don't think our country sucks - I just think that some of the direction it's been going for the last six years have taken us backwards. We should be moving forward as a nation.
Mark Twain's quote is very apt, and I know that your travels have given you a good perspective. I don't think travel would keep me from hating the majority of people on the planet, though.
And if you're in Florida for Christmas, you should spend it at my house.
My opinion on 9/11 is fairly straigtforward: it never should have happened. We should have shut al-quaeda down in 1992 when they bombed hotels our troops were staying in. We turned a blind eye to them for over a decade, and it bit us in the butt hard.
I lost a lot of brothers on 9/11, as well as some friends. In fact, because the towers held at least 2 chemical labs (that I know of), 9/11 is still going to kill my friends and brothers through exposure to the resultant noxious miasma of chemicals. Does it sadden me? Yes. But a few minutes' silence in remembrance of the fallen is enough for me. 9/11 affected my life, it doesn't define it.
Your drunk driver analogy doesn't stand up because, while people who drive drunk are jerkballs of the first stripe, drunk driving is an act of criminal negligence, not premeditated murder (for the record, I was hit, and nearly killed, by a drunk driver, so I am aware of the emotions engendered by such an event).
Al-qaeda, on the other hand, wants to kill everyone who isn't them, and has actively tried to since the early 90s. They may have started with America, but, like Shel Silverstein's "Slitereedee," they intend to go after everyone. For some reason, I find this unacceptable.
These are not people you can negotiate with, nor do they wage honorable warfare. They are cowardly sneaks who kill indescriminately and without remorse, and so long as they remain so, they should be pursued to the ends of the earth and destroyed.
It's no secret that I support the war in Iraq too. Hussein wasn't aligned with al-qaeda, but he was still a terrorist (someone who uses violence, terror, and intimidation to achieve their goals) and needed to go. We knew he had WMDs because he'd used them before. For 12 years, he stood in defiance of the so-called "world community," and the last straw was his refusal to provide adequate evidence that he had dismantled his WMD program.
I have friends in Iraq, and have heard nothing but positive things from them. Every one of them has painted a picture that's diametrically opposed to the rubbish pandered by the media.
Furthermore, I dislike 99% of what's on TV, including "According to Jim."
I think that you could'nt have said it any better, and this country really needs to get over itself and stop running around like a bunch of sheep. This day is a day that everything that happened was so instantanious and unexpected, and it is easier to remember it, because of that. The tsunami killing 230,000 people is a great number more than 3,000, and those people in those countries, on top of that many dying, had to lose entire towns, and islands. Thier whole lives were wiped out, and are probably still recovering from it. Who really does remember that date? I do because me and Julianne had just seen "The Day After Tomorrow" 2 days before, so it kinda stuck in my mind. I mean really. War and stupid shit like people killing people, for things that are going to destroy our planet more, and speed up global warming. We, as an entire race, are all on a path of self-destruct, using up this planets natural resources and trashing it all to hell, worried about all our relatively measily problems when compared to the larger issue of destroying the earth. The Day After Tomorrow, is more like a few decades, but with the good job we are doing fucking this world up, it should'nt be too much longer before it decides to destoy us all. It's already begun letting us know how much we have pissed it off. Ever watched the weather channel latley? It's fucked!! Everywhere has got some fucked up weather thing going on. Think back through this year. I can remember watching the news early this year and saw there was a bad snow storm in new england, ice storm in northern mid-west, floods in the carolinas, hurricanes south of there, tornados in the south mid-west, and the west coast was on fire all over the place. And thats just this one fucking country. All at one time too. Katrina was more of a tragic, and complete fucked up bullshit, on so many levels. But i wont get into that.
I agree with you on all your points. Lets all just fuck everything up and let the earth spit us out like it is trying to do. The weather has killed more people in the last few years than, i dont know, but more than WWII. Probly combined with the Vietnam one too. Cant remember how many died then.
Hear hear...I agree with you and I'm glad someone had the balls to say it aloud.
Charred, you are not, nor have you ever been, one of the "sheep". I think you and I disagree in many areas, but your opinion is one that I always consider to be well-reasoned. I think Hussein was a threat, but I think that North Korea was a more important issue that we may be woefully unprepared to face now.
Scarecrow, so we should go to war with weather?
Schrodinger, thanks for the visit and comment.
Amen, Avi.
Thanks for providing the forum, Avi.
Were I president, North Korea would be a smoking hole right now.
..which is probably why I am not ever going to be president.
I say bravo Charred......
Fuck you back Avi........
Agree to disagree, & I'll be back!
I know what you mean, Adam... disasters happen everywhere, but apparently an American human life is worth more. As far as the government is concerned, sometimes it feels like I'm living in Orwell's 1984.
Cat Fobi, 1984 is all over. And that since years. London, UK fe. is almost 100% covered by CCTV (the center at least).
Germany and even The Netherlands have lots of popular areas already covered as well. Actually, we live the same crap in every country.
I lived in Belgium, The Netherlands, France, Spain and Germany. The big surprize?
Change the countryside/geography, the language, maybe occasionally the political color, but it is all the same shit in every western country.
"1984" is a novel by George Orwell in which the government manipulates the people through various tactics (propaganda, etc.)... that's what I was referring to when I mentioned 1984. I think if more people had read such classics, it would be harder to pull the wool over the eyes of the public because the parallels between Orwell's novel and what is happening today are uncanny, and frankly, quite scary.
Sara, thanks.
RW, no problem. I'm surprised how civil everyone is!
Charred, probably not.
Tug, let's hear it!
Cat, I agree. Franky knows that book - he was talking more about the constant surveillance aspect of it rather than the propagandizing.
How well the West's foreign policies have served us. Our modern world is full of war-torn reminders of the 19th and 20th century empire-building games that the West played in, and we are kidding ourselves if we think that there's none of that going on today. This just in: Kabul has got its own brand new Coca Cola factory. On the 11th of September. Irony abounds.
Avi - thank you for posting this - it's important that we keep talking about what is happening everywhere in our world. According to Franky, it's the same shit everywhere. I disagree but, even if it were true, that would hardly give us the right to sit blindly in it. So, thank you for not sitting in shit.
I'm surprised how civil everyone is!
Oh SHUTup.
RW, I'm serious! I figured we'd get some drooling moron rants, but everybody's being so damned nice.
Su, thanks for your comments. Franky's in Europe and I think his perspective comes from his local area. I'm glad to hear your perspective, too. For once, a serious post on my end, eh?
Avi-Fuck you. But not for this post, just on general principal.
Thanks for have the jewels to pony up and give a different perspective. And for knowing that it will piss off/irritate/drive some to maddness...and doing it anyhow.
I still puffy heart you.
Oh, sorry, Franky! I misinterpreted your statement (read it in a rush). I see what you mean! Didn't mean to patronize you ; )
Cat, no prob
Of course do I know '1984' and find this book written somewhen after WWII everyday more and more amazing. No wait, I already said that in 1994. Nothing has changed since then, they just improved the system.
SU, I don't know about Switzerland, but could tell you some about what is actually going on in the UK. And isn't Blair Bush's best friend anyway?
Of course there have been regions where I have enjoyed my time over there, but politically, our rather the economical sentiment, everyone goes through is the same all over. Economical crises? Check the list of countries where I lived (and worked) in the last 15 years and check what those countries have been/are going through.
Besides that, even in a militarian matter there is not that much of difference either. The Eurocorps certainly had the backidea of building a powerfull force for the day if.
1984. Every country I have lived in so far. I plan moving to the States. WIll it suck more? No because when I analyze rationally I have the same, except for some local influences, thinking patterns. But basically a lot can be resumed to the same.
I for myself, I have enjoyed every country where I have been, otherwise I had left, and know I will also enjoy the States. I will work, pay taxes (and try to forget them) and otherwise... I'll just enjoy the people and my time there.
And am I allowed to use my joker in a matter of propagandizing?
Lets just think back of the wars and UN-interventions. Was it 1990, Rwanda? Prime time intervention?
Lets be honest, what can media -mainly brainwashing, erm educating of course, people with maximum 40 seconds long flashes do? Pick out the most interesting words and repeat them during the clip introduction. (Yeah very basic statement, but Haloscan has a character limit :-P)
Media obviously are brainwashing, and have always been. Already in times of the Roman Empire they were. Middle age was even worse and today it still is the money that controls the media. Or should I say the lobbies?
On a sidenote, wonder why, although my father is a very active (and this in the sence of lobbyist, but he is higher ranked than most lobbyers) one, I never wanted to adhere to the Freemasonry movement?
That is quite the post, Avitable.
While Canadian, and thus stereotypically un-American, I still live close enough to the border and share enough of the same news channels to state that America really outdoes itself.
I look at what happened on September 11/2001 and I see tragedy, like you. But we all get caught in the moment. We in the Western world lived without a clue until 9/11 and we realized that we're not so safe anymore. I think that's Americans (and all those who lost family and friends) still go through the grieving process. Not to mention the news channels have them watching it every year.
That being said, I completely agree with Dawn. What DOES make this any different from the thousands who die all over the world every day?
And how often do we have a moment of silence for the victims of the Holocaust? Rwanda? Darfur? If we're going to make a fuss let's be fair and make a fuss for all the terrible deaths.
I agree
For all that, though, when someone is in mourning the last thing anyone with any ounce of class will say to them is "okay but what about the guy who died over there?" True as misery and tragedy may be as an absolute condition, there is a certain level of absurdity to telling someone who is mourning about someone else's death.
Marginalizing someone's grief is a great way to alienate someone from your opinion otherwise.
You're sad about all those people who live in your country but fuck that - be fair - what about all those other people in that country?
I say - turn it around. The next time there's a house fire in Canada and a few kids are killed what you won't hear me say is "what about kids who are starving over in that country. Because I'm not that big of an asshole.
And I won't even mention the little school kids from the US who went to play hockey in Canada after the start if Iraq and had grown men(?) booing them when their anthem was played. That was a singular act of courage I'd say.
Adults booing kids? That is one of the most singularly lowbrow, deviant and evil things I have ever heard.
I don't care WHAT your politics are or WHAT you think their country did, treating children like that is inexcusable!
BTW,
Well spoken, RW.
Now, what did I do to deserve a "fuck you" flung at me?
I hope you have a very nice day.
RW: I wasn't really marginalizing anybody's grief. I specifically noted that they were entitled to it. I'm saying that there's no EQUALITY in what society as a whole grieves.
And about the Canadians booing the American anthem: Yeah they did. And Americans reacted by booing the Canadian anthem. Everyone's guilty. I never said it was right.
Adam,
You're a pompous windbag. But I still love you.
And fuck you, too. Jerk.
"If we're going to make a fuss let's be fair and make a fuss for all the terrible deaths."
Is marginalization, pure and simple.
A woman over here is crying for her sister who was killed in the towers. Here's Adam "well let's be fair. What about Darfur?"
What the fuck does she care about Darfur now? Maybe she cares about it. Maybe tomorrow she'll talk about it. But right now she's mourning a personal loss. And here you are: "well, what about Darfur?"
Equality in what grieving? When my father died was I supposed to hold it back and say "oh, wait... wait... somebody else's father might have died today too."
Don't be ridiculous. I think maybe you revealed a blind side you don't know you have. Maybe you're just prejudiced, I don't know. I don't even really care.
And there was more to booing those kids. There was surrounding their bus and pounding on the windows. There was jeering and taunts throughout the game. Another example of class.
But what people should know is how some Canadians fixed the problem. And God bless them. Of course - isn't that province due to come over to us if the Quebecois ever succeed with their ethnic cleansing?
Ok... I think my intention was completely misunderstood.
What I'm trying to say is that AS A SOCIETY we've gone over-the-top. Not individually. It sounded insensitive but I improperly explained myself. I didn't intend to say that a woman grieving over the loss of her mother should "care more about Darfur." And I would NEVER say that.
But don't you admit, that as a society we go over-the-top to commemorate some tragedies and not others? Why the double standard?
Wow. You really know how to get people going. That's a skill.
HCG: It's spelled "principle" when used in that context. Just fucking with ya.
Franky: Thanks for all your input - you've made this the most interesting comments thread I've ever had!
Adam: Good to see you've returned. I was wondering where you had gone. Is Darfur part of Middle Earth where the Hobbits are? I think your clarification made sense. RW is an angry old fuddy-duddy anyways.
Ole Blue: Thanks for the visit and comments.
RW: I draw a line between people grieving for those they've personally lost and generalized grieving because some people I didn't know died. That is an important distinction, don't you think? Otherwise, good point. I'm also disappointed that you haven't yet misspelled anything in any of the comments. I needed a Sniglet to make this thread perfect.
Charred: You don't remember that happening? It was quite the media event here.
KG: Fuck you too!
Oh, and Scooter - everybody gets a "fuck you". You probably deserve it for something.
Mist, thanks!
It isn't a terrible big issue, I simply don't see a double standard in this case.
If we want to talk about double standards, we may do well to recall that it was the US who did what they could to protect Muslims in Bosnia a few years back; yet this is no way was ever commemorated by radical Muslims who organized the attacks of 9/11. I'd call that not only a double standard, but a bit of self-serving and selective memory to boot.
Anyhow kicking the serbs back into their holes didn't gain us any points with Islam - and I didn't see any Muslim troops there either, come to think of it.
There's a double standard relative to Darfur as well. I sat back and listened to critics of the US say "you have all this material and all these troops in Iraq - why don't you send something to Sudan to stop the bloodshed in Darfur?" How come these people said nothing about the 5,000 Chinese regulars in nSudan protecting Chinese Oil Fields who sat on their asses forty miles away and did NOTHING? People who call double standard ought to get a mirror.
If I commemorate something that happened to my countrymen I am guilty of a double standard for not commemorating something that happened to people who aren't my countrymen.
That's absurd on the face of it and a "standard" no one would ask of themselves.
Where are the commemorations to Darfur in Canada? And - since the US is also a foreign country to Canada - why aren't you commemorating 9/11 hog-tog-and-bucket in Ottawa today, instead of asking the victims why they aren't commemorating Rwanda?
I don't know. Maybe the US doesn't rate in the same level of estimation in your mind as Sudan and Burundi and the Congo.
But I didn't see you in Bosnia.
I draw a line between people grieving for those they've personally lost and generalized grieving because some people I didn't know died.
That is not an argument. That it a character flaw.
(dances in the end zone)
it - (eht); Buckwheat saying IS.
RW, I'm going to have to call a penalty on excessive display of unsportsmanlike conduct for dancing in the end zone.
shit..... I guess there goes my claim to Old School right out the bloody window too...
shoulda just handed the ball to the damn ref....
Adam,
I was in the middle of a nasty divorce in March 2003. I don't remember much of anything from then except what my lawyer's office looked like.
"Princi pal"...one who is the ruler and your friend. You are still my friend, you grammar nazi.
HCG - when you say "on general principle", it's "ple". So there!
And, yes, I'm a grammar and spelling nazi. I can't help it!
Avitable: Thanks for the welcome back. I was indisposed for the while.
RW: CANADA as a country is certainly not one to say there is a problem with how America has reacted and grieved with this tragedy. I had a history class in high school too, and I know Canada has been hardly a saint or a devil around the world; simply there to let the refugees in. But since I only live in this country and by myself do not make up the majority of the population I think it's unfair to state every one of Canada's foreign policy flaws and use them as ammunition on me.
Do I personally find a problem that Canada doesn't commemorate much more than we do? Yes.
But do I not individually take a minute to reflect on the terrible tragedies that have happened? Yes. September 11, 2001 included.
I also think that saying that radical Muslims who planned and carried out the attacks and did not commemorate the US are similar to society for not commemorating specific tragedies. They seem to have a MUCH different agenda than society in general. But that's just speculation.
I was trying to be funny.
Oh. Ummm.
You failed!
Hehehe.
To the first commenter...since when did 12/7 become a "legal holiday"? It's not a legal holiday. Check the list: http://www.madmanmike.com/
us_eve...ents_dates.html
And to Avitable...you should check my dad's blog for his post on how the government is bad and math and keeps "creating terrorists." I totally agree with you. Our problem is that we're so caught up in ourselves that we can't look past our noses and see the REAL problems in other countries that happen on a daily basis. Such a "tragedy" happens what - once a century, apparently, in America? BFD. That's a lot more bearable than having "tragedies" every week in other countries.
test
wooo! i changed ip. i think comcast had somebody doing that tor thing on my old ip so i made em change it.
dirty bastards.
Beth,
WE do not create terrorists, that is a decision they make on their own. People who are inclined towards trying to get their way by blowing things up will do so whatever the provocation; we are just a convenient excuse they use to justify their childish tantrums and senseless violence.
I'm not saying the US is perfect, because it isn't. People make mistakes, become corrupt, go insane, whatever. The US is, however, better than any of the alternatives, especially the Middle Eastern pseudo-republics, theocracies and dictatorships.
What I AM saying is that these people who go out and blow up busses or kidnap civilians and cut their heads off are responsible for their own actions, regardless of what percieved insult they've decided is justification to act in such a lawless manner.
Yeah, and here's a prediction - the minute the Islamofascists recognize that the failed states they live in are their responsibility and everything isn't the West's fault will be the day the killing takes a rest.
Not that I'm going to hold my breath. We're everybody's easy excuse.
Either that or we wait it out another 30 years for this particular generation of Muslim goofballs to die out. Probably more likely.
Oh - and I'll be sure to commenmorate them... just to be fair.
(spits)
See it Avi? Jump on it bwa!
I just want to say...Charred, you rock.
Now I shall continue reading the comments.
CP.
Beth...my my. Faux pas. Please forgive. I meant MLK as being the legal holiday. I suppose my rant mode just got the best of me.
Aaaaaaaanyway, I don't think there should be double standard. I think we should be commemorating everyone who dies every single day.
Feasible?
I think not.
The major difference in the people who died on 9/11 and those who died in the war in Iraq balances on "intent". Let me clarify.
Joe Schmoe got up for work in the morning, same way he always does. He went to his job in the North Tower of the WTC. Poor bastard was just putting cream in his coffee and about to sit at his desk to make a call when...BLAM.
Lights out.
The soldiers in Iraq are casualties of war. You know when you sign up in one of the branches of service, you are doing so with the understanding that part of your job just may be losing your life.
That is why I feel more compassion for those who died innocently than say, the police officers and fire fighters who lost their lives in 9/11. They died doing their jobs. It is what they are paid to do. Their deaths are no less tragic, BUT...it is what they set out to do with their lives. It was the commitment they made, and they made it of their own volition.
Now, before you all start getting freaky deaky on me for saying that, bear in mind...my father is NYPD. On the job for over 26 years before retiring. He lost his best friend that day, a fellow police officer. I loved that man. But, I also have the wherewithall to know that he died as valiantly as he lived...saving lives. I am not speaking from a hypocritical point of view.
I wonder if anyone remembers the Oklahoma City Bombing. Do you think those people...those innocent children, weren't memorialized? Of course they were. But, sadly that was 1995 and time heals.
However, time does NOT heal those of us who suffered personal loss that day. On my tribute page, I chose not to write about my fathers friend. I chose not to write about my godmother who was killed that day. I opted to choose a stranger...because I wanted to take the "personal" aspect out of the equation.
Know what I discovered?
You can't.
Take some time to get to know one of the people who died. Anyone. Someone. You will quickly realize that they have so much in common with YOU. And then, you start thinking about your own mortality...and how you don't need to live in NYC, or Washington, or be in a plane to become a victim of terrorism, be it domestic or international.
Do you think those little kids in Oklahoma, who were fingerpainting, knew what they were in for? Do you think their parents had a remote clue that that would be the last time they would kiss their child goodbye?
Life changes on a dime, folks. Or, to be more cliche but more appropos...in a New York City minute.
Everyone who dies at the hands of terrorism deserves to be recognized...and if I could memorialize each one myself, every single day for the rest of my life...I would.
Sadly, I'd probably die before I was through.
CP.
"Beth,
WE do not create terrorists, that is a decision they make on their own. People who are inclined towards trying to get their way by blowing things up will do so whatever the provocation; we are just a convenient excuse they use to justify their childish tantrums and senseless violence."
Thanks for reading my post in it's full context. "Creating terrorists" was in quotations, which generally implies it may not be what you think it is, and considering you don't reap the blog I was referring Avitable to, you really have no idea what I was talking about, which, consequently, was not about America forcing people to be terrorists, so your response really has no bearing on this conversation.
However, I WILL say that terrorism is far less of a problem than the government makes it out to be. We haven't had a terrorist attack IN AMERICA since 9/11, yet we want Americans to live in fear. I mean, seriously, not being allowed to take deoderant or perfume on an airplane? Get real.
er, reap = read.
pregnant dyslexic moment, sorry.
"I wonder if anyone remembers the Oklahoma City Bombing. Do you think those people...those innocent children, weren't memorialized? Of course they were. But, sadly that was 1995 and time heals."
You said it all right here.
The OC bombing was 11 years ago.
The New York "attack" was 5 years ago.
In the long run, the past is the past and how can we say that time has healed in 11 years what it hasn't healed in 5 years? I'm sure those families are just as sad as the families in the 911 attacks. Are you comfortable saying that their families aren't good enough to be remembered more than 5 years later?
"Everyone who dies at the hands of terrorism deserves to be recognized...and if I could memorialize each one myself, every single day for the rest of my life...I would."
No, they don't. It was a freak accident. They aren't "heroes." We don't call people who get hit by buses or cars and die "heroes." We say "oh, how sad," and get on with our lives. I WILL say that sacrificing your own life for others, such in the case of the firemen, deems them as heroes. But simply going to work and dying? So what? Things like that happen every day, but we only care because it was such a large group of people who died at once, and because it was in America.
Death is a part of life, and we have to learn to move on from it at some point. I'm sorry you lost someone you loved because I know that's never easy. My uncle just got hit by a car yesterday and died. But guess what? He's not going to make the 4:00 news, and no one really gives a crap about his wife or his kids left behind, and they certainly aren't getting a monetary settlement for his death.
The soldiers who die in Iraq sign up for the job, yes. However, I feel far more pity for the soldiers who die in Iraq and their families left behind than I do for the 9/11 widows.
Why? Consider this: would it be easier to cope with your husband's death if he went to work one day and just didn't come home or if he left for a year and you spent hours every day worrying about him, crying yourself to sleep, and trying to convince the kids that he would be OK, and THEN he died?
Me, I'd take the easy route and just have him die in a freak accident. There would be no worrying, no concerns, no sleepless nights. He would be here and then he would be gone.
Also, the soldiers wives didn't get million dollar settlements because their husbands died. They got $6,000 for burial and funeral costs. Hardly the same, if you ask me.
Bethie,
If you're deliberately unclear about your meaning, you have no right to be irritated if you're misunderstood.
Frankly, I have neither the time nor the inclination to visit unknown blogs on the offchance that I will discover a hidden meaning in someone else's comment.
What I said is extremely relevant to the conversation at hand because there is an extremely vocal segment of the anti-war activists who, unfathomably, wish to blame Islamic terrorism on the US. They're blowing things up because they resent our freedom or our foreign policies or our whatever, so therefore it's our fault.
The ambiguities of your comment portrayed you as a member of this lunatic fringe.
Next time, say what you mean instead of hiding behind someone else.
"However, I WILL say that terrorism is far less of a problem than the government makes it out to be. We haven't had a terrorist attack IN AMERICA since 9/11, yet we want Americans to live in fear. I mean, seriously, not being allowed to take deoderant or perfume on an airplane? Get real."
You're right, and you're wrong.
Terrorism is a big deal for the government, and it should be because, while there hasn't been an attack "in America" since 9/11, there have been several attempts which were foiled because of our government's vigilance.
For a while, bombings were rather commonplace in Europe while the IRA (et al) was active. While not an everyday occurance, they were frequent enough that people became acclimated to them.
This is not something I want my children to experience.
As to living in fear, it's the media and the "you're useless and can't do anything on your own so we need to make sure you're properly dependent on us" political party that wants us to live in fear, not the government itself.
Living in fear is such an awful way to live that it amazes me how many people are willing to do it.
I think the airlines would have been better served by giving weapons to everyone who boarded a plane instead of banning nail files, shampoo, hair gel, whatever.
"If you're deliberately unclear about your meaning, you have no right to be irritated if you're misunderstood."
I'm not irritated , but considering the fact that I said "And to Avitable...you" before my statement obviously shows that my comment was addressed to a single person and not the entire colony of readers. If you were confused about my meaning, you could have asked instead of assuming . I didn't purposely "hide" what I was talking about, but gave enough information to the person I was speaking to in order for him to understand what I meant, and he did.
"I think the airlines would have been better served by giving weapons to everyone who boarded a plane instead of banning nail files, shampoo, hair gel, whatever."
I quite agree with you on this, though I'm still not convinced that terrorism is nearly as much of a threat as the government wants us to believe. Before 9/11, when was the last time we actually had a *terrorist* attack? Does anyone even know?
"If you're deliberately unclear about your meaning, you have no right to be irritated if you're misunderstood."
I'm not irritated , but considering the fact that I said "And to Avitable...you" before my statement obviously shows that my comment was addressed to a single person and not the entire colony of readers. If you were confused about my meaning, you could have asked instead of assuming . I didn't purposely "hide" what I was talking about, but gave enough information to the person I was speaking to in order for him to understand what I meant, and he did.
"I think the airlines would have been better served by giving weapons to everyone who boarded a plane instead of banning nail files, shampoo, hair gel, whatever."
I quite agree with you on this, though I'm still not convinced that terrorism is nearly as much of a threat as the government wants us to believe. Before 9/11, when was the last time we actually had a *terrorist* attack? Does anyone even know?
Bethie,
Steve Irwin died of a freak accident. The 3,000 folks killed on 911, be they passengers in the planes, or office workers, or fire-fighters, they were murdered. The folks on flight 93, and the public safety personnel who died in NY going up 50, 60, 70 flights of stairs while every human impulse in the must have been screaming "get out"... You can never equate those folks to someone dying in a car accident.
How can you say that the way someone dies makes it any worse than the way someone else died? Either way, there are loved ones left behind. Do you think it's worse for someone to be murdered or to die of cancer? How do you decide which family should be pitied more? The way someone dies doesn't make the pain any less real. Should I feel more pain for Steve Irwin dying than for my relatives simply because of the way he died? And FWIW, he knew the risks when he decided to go sting-ray searching, so in all fairness it's no one's fault but his own.
"but considering the fact that I said "And to Avitable...you" before my statement obviously shows that my comment was addressed to a single person and not the entire colony of readers."
You're kidding, right?
If you make a public comment, you run the risk of the public commenting...even if you directed your comment at an individual. If you seriously didn't want anyone other than Adam to respond, you should have sent him an email, as that's what it's for.
Are you seriously getting upset about this? Commenting systems on blogs are for...comments. If I want to leave Adam a comment directly, I think I have the right to do that, just as you have the right to misunderstand it.
"How can you say that the way someone dies makes it any worse than the way someone else died?"
Again, you're kidding, right?
There's a big difference between a soldier dying in combat and a civilian murdered in a cowardly sneak attack, just like there's a difference between manslaughter and first degree murder.
Yes, in each case someone dies, family and friends are left behind, and it is an awful thing.
BUT
A soldier has volunteered to fight, and maybe die, for his country. He has also been trained for combat and givin the equipment he needs to do his job, which is to kill people and break things.
The death of a soldier is a sad thing, but it is also a sacred thing because he gave his life in the defence of his country, his home, and his family.
The death of civilians, such as those in the World Trade Center, is a horrible tragedy. Unlike the soldier, the civilian has NO REASON to expect that he will be targeted in a military action! This is why our country has spent hundreds of millions to develop "smart" weapons that minimize civilian casualties.
With the soldier's death comes sadness, just as with an accidental death; when someone is murdered, sadness must be accompanied with outrage or we, as a society, have begun to lose our souls.
That is why it's different.
"Are you seriously getting upset about this? Commenting systems on blogs are for...comments. If I want to leave Adam a comment directly, I think I have the right to do that, just as you have the right to misunderstand it."
Were I upset, you would have no doubt.
"Were I upset, you would have no doubt."
Hehe, so what you're saying is, you'd make me go crying to my mommy? lol
Civilians are murdered and attacked every day overseas, and I think Avitable covered this in his OP. We just don't seem to care nearly as much when it's about another country. What about all the civilians we've killed in Iraq? Nobody seems to care about them...
Why does it hurt more when someone we love dies than when someone we don't know does? Human psychology 101: It matters more to us when something happens to "one of us" than when something happens to "one of them."
Incendentally, we do care about the civilian casualties. That's why we developed smart weapons and don't carpet bomb anymore.
Where's your outrage over the civilians the terrorists have killed? Our military has spent BILLIONS developing weapons designed to prevent the death of innocents, while the Islamofascists actively target them.
If you're heart's gonna bleed for civilian casualties, shouldn't it be bleeding over the ones murdered by terrorists too?
*Incidentally
Wow. I pick one night to go to bed early and I come back to comment war.
I do agree more with Beth, as you already know, Charred, CP and RW, but my motivations are slightly different.
1. I think that the "party" that is keeping America in fear of terrorism is the party in office so it is de facto the government. The media, of course, is just making it worse.
2. The only terrorist attempt since 9/11 was the recent one, and I'm not even convinced that was real. Yes, the people were real and their plot was real, but I think Britain was able to take them down at any time and was aware of them from day one. And no, the incidents like the moron setting his shoes on fire don't count - lunatics are everywhere.
3. Charred, she did say "check out my dad's blog" and put "creating terrorists" in quotes. I hadn't read her dad's blog, but my assumption was that it was tongue in cheek. I think your arguments are valid, but she had a point there.
4. Kal, why do you hate Steve Irwin so much?
5. I think it's important to explain that it's not that I don't feel for the ones murdered by terrorists, but I think their deaths are just as tragic as the civilians abroad and just as tragic as someone getting hit by a car. In the end, the intent and means of death should never play a role in how tragic something is. The fact that someone is losing a father or mother or brother or sister or son or daughter should be tragic enough.
6. Miss Ann, really? That's all you have to say?
7. RW, "commenmorate"?
1. I should clarify: I'm not just talking about those who died in the WTC, I'm also talking about those killed abroad by suicide bombers.
2. The death of someone I don't know is saddening, the death of someone I love is tragic, but murder is both saddening and infuriating.
These people need to be stopped for the good of all, because they're eventually going to come after us all.
Charred - who gets to decide who the terrorists are?
A terrorist defines themself by doing acts of war extra-nationally, meaning; if there is an act of war by a state there is at least an entity to negotiate with. If we wanted to sit down and talk out our problems with the Islamic radicals - who do we ask to talk to? Who would we negotiate with, if we wanted to?
A state committing acts of violence can be just as wrong, but there is at least a recognizable entity with which to treat with.
That's why, when I hear people talk about the US being a terrorist, I spit Coke out my nose. Because I love listening to idiots try to frame their argument with partisan vitriol instead of common rationality.
Avi - your leaning to the conspiratorial for the benefit of power held within the confines of America - which I assume you mean when you talk about things you are "not sure really happened" requires more intellectual rigor than just your mere speculation or even your intuition or "feewings." Since American Presidents have a FINITE time in office, the idea that they conspire to manufacture fear for the benefit of their power is, to put it bluntly, fucked up thinking.
commenmorate - an invitation to morate.
RW, that was in England, not the US.
And if you don't think that organizations like the CIA or FBI have groups that they know about and can close down any time, but choose to do so when it makes good press, you're being naive.
I don't think anyone here said that the US is a terrorist, did they?
Su,
The terrorists do by their very actions.
A terrorist is someone who systematically uses violence and intimidation against the state or the public as a means to achieve their (usually political) objectives.
Avi,
Shutting down a criminal organization in the name of a good PR generating photo op, while reprehensible, is a far cry from conspiring to a fearmongering campaign designed to mislead and subjugate the general public.
RW,
Beyond that, in the view of the jihadists, anyone who is unwilling to wage war on the west is in violation of the Koran and must be put to death.
Charred,
You honestly don't think that the current incumbent officials are purposely trying to keep a fear of terrorism at the forefront of the American people's concerns?
That's how the atrocious Patriot Act managed to pass. That's how Bush was able to listen in on Americans' phone calls. It's how we've been able to continue to fund the money pit of a war that we entered.
I have no doubt that they are intentionally overstating the fear of terrorism in order to gain the public's support.
This thread does not exist in a vaccuum. There are people who believe the CIA had something to do with the attack on the WTC. Or even President Bush, who then spirited all the bin Laden family members back to Arabia to keep them out of harm's way. A cursory look around the internet would reveal countless conspiracy theories, including those who feel that the last thing that happened in Britain was nothing but a campaign-year ploy.
But trust me on this - there are many apologists for the terrorists who have been happy to tell you America is the terrorist in the world. If you hadn't heard that, you'd be simply misinformed.
It would be naive to say that the intelligence community can't clamp down on certain groups any time they wanted. And if I had said that, it would be a fair label to place on me. But since that is not what I was talking about, I reject your reality and replace it with my own.
Charred - I'm not being argumentative, (yes I am), but one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. Or possibly hairdresser.
Now I'm not saying that we should give Al-Qaeda a hug. My point is just that, at some time in the not so distant past, all our countries have been terrorists to someone else. So where do we draw the line? 2001? 1924? All the problems that we are faced with today are the result of misjudged acts in the past and they're usually ours. We're not supposed to repeat these mistakes. We have to try other solutions. And I don't think that's the case right now. Do you?
Doesn't anybody here REALIZE that I have Lastworditis!!???
Avi -
With all due respect to Beth and her opinions, perhaps she can be a bit more clear about what she is trying to say without taking peoples words out of context. What I said was...
OC bombings of 1995 were tragic. Anytime children are slaughtered, it is tragic. However, America has a very SHORT attention span...and to them, that was SO ten years ago. We mourned and talked about that incident...until 9/11 took place. Now, that is the new devastation, until something else comes along.
Sadly, something always does.
However, I can tell you the names of many of those children who were in that bombing in OKC back then. I was pregnant with my sons when that occurred. I was devastated by the loss. I memorialized those children in poetry. No, not in a blog, because there was no place to blog back then. We discussed it in chatrooms and in emails.
My son died 10 years ago. It was not at the hands of a terrorist. It was somewhere between God and science, pure and simple.
I can tell you that I felt much worse about it five years ago than I do now at 10 years. However, it doesn't mean the pain is not as deep, it just isn't daily anymore. Not a day goes by that I don't think of him...not one. But yes, time does heal to a certain extent.
I will be bold and say this, at the expense of being considered a horrible person...
If I had the choice to have my son die at birth as he did, or to be blown up in OKC when he was 5 years old? I'd rather have him die naturally, the way he did. I would have rather never known him at all.
OKC was domestic terrorism, one of our own went ballistic and destroyed his own people in his own country. That's a black mark day on the face of America. We were ashamed of that. We took a LOT more comfort in it when we believed it was an act of International terrorism.
9/11 did a lot of damage, but it also bound us together as a country. Not "New Yorkers" specifically.
I think a few statements in these comments were based on pure ignorance.
I think I am going to shut up now.
Except for this:
Charred?
Marry me? *snort*
CP.
RW, I just didn't want you thinking I was one of those conspiracy nuts. I'm not - I just know that people sometimes have agendas that don't parallel their actions. I know I'm like that!
And I have lastworditis, too, so we're screwed!
Su, I think the big distinction is between someone fighting an actual oppressor and someone making a pre-emptive strike. If Americans had gone to Britain and assassinated the King, instead of fighting them as they invaded, I think it would be a different story.
CP, you make good points, and I'm glad you can do so without getting angry or uncivil. In fact, I really want some irrational people to get on here and start shit, but they're all afraid, I think.
Avi,
No, I honestly don't. We're at war, and that should remain at the forefront of people's minds.
What I do see is a pack of whiny Democrats who are so desperate to regain control over the house and senate that they're willing to jepordize our national security to obtain it.
And no, I'm neither Demoblican nor Republicrat. I have no political affiliation whatsoever. I distrust them both. Anyone who wants power is somebody who can't be trusted with it.
Nevertheless, I believe it's impossible to support the troops without supporting the cause they're fighting for, or the administration that sent them to fight.
Su,
Freedom fighters my left buttock (and I have no need of a hairdresser).
The so-called "insurgents" are not Iraqi civilians raising up against the oppression of the US, they're terrorists who have come from Iran, Syria, (and so forth) to take their bite from the martyrdom apple by blowing up a part of Iraq.
All the problems we're facing today are because these idiots refuse to grow up. Why do you think Palestine is still actively plotting to destroy Israel more than 60 YEARS after the UN (the so-called "world community") established it as a place of refuge for the Jews?
Anyone who is not one of them, or who does not agree with them, has "fallen from the Narrow Way" and will burn in hell as an infidel. What this means, in a nutshell, is that by virtue of us being who we are--and nothing else--these fanatics feel they have a right to deny us our humanity and treat us however they wish.
Mature, adult, rational people do not attempt to sway political elections by bombing trains (Madrid, 3/11/04), kidnap people and then release video of their captive being beheaded.
Mature, adult, rational people voice their concerns and seek redress through established legal means.
To make matters worse, we've presented ourselves as weak to fascist Islam since the 1970s. To quote a columnist I have respect for:
"During the quarter century that preceded the September 11th attacks, U.S. foreign policy towards the Jihadists was quite passive. From President Carter's helplessness as dozens of Americans were held hostage for 444 days by Islamic revolutionaries in Iran, through the tail-between-the-legs pullouts in Beirut (President Reagan) and Somalia (President Clinton), the default bi-partisan American response to Jihadist provocation was to ignore it or to turn and run. And on the rare occasion that we strayed from that norm, whatever military response we did launch tended to be quite feeble. During this time, Jihadist attacks only grow more frequent and more deadly. Our passivity invited more attacks from people who were trying to get our attention." (from brain terminal)
I would love to be able to resolve this conflict another way, but the Islamofascists have said that they will either kill us, enslave us, or die trying.
This limits our choices in dealing with them. We can either die, give up our freedom, or wipe them from the face of the Earth.
I vote for wiping them from the face of the Earth.
If they are willing to surrender their weapons and promise to never again come against us in battle, I'm all for the cessation of hostilities.
I do not, however, negotiate with terrorists.
CP,
My wife would be very angry with me if I did. Sorry.
Charred...
So would my husband.
You have a point.
CP.
I support the people who are forced to be out there, but I don't support the reason they're there. I don't think that's hard to do, at all.
And since I get the last word, I win!
"Since American Presidents have a FINITE time in office, the idea that they conspire to manufacture fear for the benefit of their power is, to put it bluntly, fucked up thinking."
They may not manufacture it, but they sure do exploit it. The tiniest fear is brought to the forefront and milked for all its worth. Gays can't get married because they'll wreck the sanctity of marriage. Global warming will be the death of us all. Be a good little Christian and follow the Bible to the letter or you're going straight to H-E-double hockey sticks. Big Business is destroying the environment. The rainforests are being depleted. The terrorists are all set to lob a few bombs our way, or worse, they're going to invade our country.
Politicians are the kings of fearmongering. They do it in their speeches, in the back and forth rhetoric on Capitol Hill, in smear campaigns against their political opponents. When I say politicians, I mean ALL of them. Republicans are much more adept at pushing everyone's fear buttons, but Democrats do it quite well too.
As far as the media goes, it's an utter and complete fucking joke. Everyday there's a new study out: Everything you've ever ate or drank causes cancer. Sitting too close to the TV will make you go blind. Drinking Mountain Dew will make you impotent (that's in addition to the cancer thing). You'll get carpal tunnel from jerking off. Cellphones cause brain damage. Your headphones have more fungi in them than Nuke Laloosh's shower shoes. Rock music promotes devil worship, weak-ass air guitar posturing, and wearing spandex. Smoking dope leads you down a slippery slope of endless cartoon watching and Dorito munching. You shouldn't surf the internet EVER because there's freaks and nutjobs everywhere who are ready to steal your credit card info, send you viruses, flame you (anonymously) on message boards and in blog comments, and seduce you in a chat room. (I happen to believe that last one, btw. The internet is chock full of fucked up idiots.)
Let's face it, a country whose fears are exploited and used against them, is a much easier country to control and influence. We as a society are being used and manipulated, period.
Personally, I'm sick and fucking tired of the fearmongering, from all sides...and I'm not going to listen to it anymore. In one ear fungus-filled ear, and out the other.
Niteowl, very nicely said.
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