The Other Side
Very well put.
Thanks, Hedyot.
Good post!
(nah, who am I kidding, great post!)
Am I to understand that you are advocating sexual promiscuity? You know that sexual promiscuity has consequences like babies and STD's. According to a recnet study, one out of 4 teenage girsl in america has an STD. And yesteday was a happy day in my classroom. A girl, all of 17, came back to school after a one year maternity leave.
N.Schuster:
"Am I to understand that you are advocating sexual promiscuity?"
How does that follow? Am I to understand you promiscuously stuff your face with hot apple pie? (And the answer to your question would depend on what 'promiscuity' means to you, obviously.)
"According to a recnet study, one out of 4 teenage girsl in america has an STD"
Scary. Here is another scary statistic: each year, about 8% of teen drivers are involved in a serious automobile crash. I think it should be obvious to all adults that cars and sex (and hot apple pies) can be dangerous things. Caution is advised.
"A girl, all of 17, came back to school after a one year maternity leave."
Mazal Tov. For the record: I do not advocate 17-year-old girls having children. Or even 18-year old girls, as is the custom in the communities I mention in my post. But that's a post by itself.
And we can do a separate show on the wedding night torment in our community, where many of the boys laying dong for the first time with a women simply can not do it. Some for days, some weeks even months until they can say that blessing about the walnut of Gan Eden. My Chusun Teacher as to prepare me told me more than 50 percent can not do it on wedding night. For an insider this is not surprising at all.
> like biting into a freshly baked fruit tart straight out of the oven, with hot filling running all over the place and sumptuous crumbs lingering in your mouth and providing that famed afterglow. Delicious.
That description didn't come from Kosher by Design, did it? 
"How does that follow? Am I to understand you promiscuously stuff your face with hot apple pie? (And the answer to your question would depend on what 'promiscuity' means to you, obviously.)"
You seem to be advocating promiscuity when you people shoud just (explitive deleted). That seems to me to mean promiscuity.
"Scary. Here is another scary statistic: each year, about 8% of teen drivers are involved in a serious automobile crash. I think it should be obvious to all adults that cars and sex (and hot apple pies) can be dangerous things. Caution is advised."
Yes my point exactly. Kids get free codomsin school. The girls still get pregnant.
"Mazal Tov. For the record: I do not advocate 17-year-old girls having children."
So how do you stop them? Giving out condoms doesn't work.
And Velvel Chosid, so if they don't succeed on their wedding night, they'll succeed the next time. Charedim do tend to have lots of children so eventually they learn.
BD, I am beyond impressed. You wrote an absolutely excellent post. And so straightforward. Your other posts are well written, but you often use pretentious humor or metaphors as a crutch. Here, your points were articulate enough and meaningful enough to you (I assume) that you didn't have to resort to any pretentiousness. Well, almost any. I guess the piloerection comment was irresistible.
Velvel:
"And we can do a separate show on the wedding night torment in our community"
Absolutely!
Loves to bake:
"That description didn't come from Kosher by Design, did it?"
N.Schuster
"You seem to be advocating promiscuity when you people shoud just (explitive deleted)"
Hard to address this in any substantive way, since as I note above what you mean by 'promiscuity' isn't entirely clear. Again, I don't advocate getting STD's or unwanted children; I should think responsible adults know how to avoid these.
"So how do you stop them? Giving out condoms doesn't work."
Seriously? You're asking me how to prevent inner-city children from having babies and getting STD's? Obviously, you need to create a stable and nurturing home environment first. And I imagine a teacher not prone to seeing the students as sexual objects himselfs and who shows empathy and compassion instead of derision might have an easier time getting across a message about healthy sexuality, as well.
"if they don't succeed on their wedding night, they'll succeed the next time. Charedim do tend to have lots of children"
As you know (because you mentioned it in connection to your students), the ability to procreate doesn't imply healthy views on sex and sexuality, which is what the post was about. Are you just trying to be contrarian?
laura:
"BD, I am beyond impressed."
I am beyond flattered.
"You wrote an absolutely excellent post."
Thanks. You're very kind.
"but you often use pretentious humor or metaphors as a crutch"
I'm sorry to learn you don't like my pretensions or humor (or crutches). But what good is life (and sex) without them?
"Again, I don't advocate getting STD's or unwanted children; I should think responsible adults know how to avoid these."
The problem I see every day is that "responsible" adults are sending a message through the media, movies, internet, etc. that my students pick up on and act on.
"So how do you stop them? Giving out condoms doesn't work."
Seriously? You're asking me how to prevent inner-city children from "having babies and getting STD's? Obviously, you need to create a stable and nurturing home environment first. And I imagine a teacher not prone to seeing the students as sexual objects himselfs and who shows empathy and compassion instead of derision might have an easier time getting across a message about healthy sexuality, as well."
I've tried top convince my students to wait. They problem is that I'm up against the media the internet and everything else. "Responsible" adults are sending my students a message. And my students can get condoms from their gyms teacher for free. They use them as water baloons.
And how do you know that charedim have an "unhealthy" atttitude towards sex?
BD: I'm sorry to learn you don't like my pretensions or humor (or crutches). But what good is life (and sex) without them?
Sex with crutches? Hmmm... not a good image.
>BD: I'm sorry to learn you don't like my pretensions or humor (or crutches). But what good is life (and sex) without them?
I prefer stilts
N.Schuster:
"I've tried top convince my students to wait."
Wait... you've tried to convince them to wait??? For what, for Mashiach? Whatever for? That, as you surely must realize, is part of the problem. Convincing them to wait is a fool's errand, and you can never make a convincing enough case! You, as the adult, should've realized that.
Instead of engaging in useless moralizing you should actually teach them something. Teach them to have proper respect for their own bodies (and that of their partners'); teach them why they should never be pressured into having sex; explain to them the potential long-lasting and potent emotional and physical consequences of sex, both the bad AND the good; tell them about the benefits of self-control and firm convictions; show them why it's smart to avoid situations they'd rather not be in; and most important of all, explain how they CAN enjoy sex in relative safety and peace of mind in the right settings and with the right people and precautions.
Depending on home environment and peer group this might still not make much of a difference, but it stands a better chance of helping them avoid STD's and unwanted pregnancies than telling them to wait!
"And how do you know that charedim have an "unhealthy" atttitude towards sex?"
Ruach hakodesh.
Here's the other side (no pun intended)
"Wait... you've tried to convince them to wait??? For what, for Mashiach? Whatever for?"
For marriage, or at least until they can assume the adult role in society, and properly provide for teir children.
And they are taught all the other stuff in both health class, and in parenting class,(including how to use condoms) and I talk about it too. And it doesn't work because they are told by the media that they are suppose to be having sex now.
Halo:
"'(or crutches). But what good is life (and sex) without them?'
I prefer stilts"
You should run away with the circus.
"Here's the other side"
Interesting! (And, I think, fallacious.)
Dear Baal Devarim.
What you say is very true in many regards. I completely agree with you that we have to fight child abuse and child molestation.
However, this is extremely difficult, since child molesters take advantage of the situation, no matter what it is.
In religious circles, they hide behind their "kavod" and the shame of the innocent victims. However, in societies that are more open, they tell the children that what they do is perfectly legitimate ("Why are you so prudisch?" "I just wanted to show how it works" "This is how fathers love their daughters").
They go were the are trusted and then take advantage of the trust that is put in them. They are very, very sophisticated. They know to seek their victims.
I could even imagine that they would work in "child molestation prevention", since this could give them access to children and ensure that they will never be suspected (how could someone who fights child molestation molest a child? That's exactely how they work)
So I agree that it is a scandal that rabbis cover up sex abusers. However,
you should not underestimate the task.
The "burden of proof" is always a very thorny issue, and it happens much too often that victims are not believed and not protected, no matter what the society is.
There is no secure place, and the securer you feel you are, the less secure you are in reality.
And the main problem is: The molestor is often closer to the child than those who do the prevention.
Welcome, Anne.
"since child molesters take advantage of the situation, no matter what it is."
This is true. Still, this shouldn't prevent us from trying to change whatever the situation is they are currently taking advantage of (as I'm sure you agree).
You are right. But it is not sure that jewish religious (or repressive) environment is worse than an "open" one. I will try and point out the advantages and disadvantages of every one of them:
The advantages of the Jewish orthodox set-up are that there are quite a lot of safeguards against the molestation happening, especially Men on girls (which is according to some statistics, the most widespread problem).
Furthermore, there are very explicit issurim that could be verified. So this is not that bad for prevention, because it would be less easy for a molestor to hide behind "Come on, it's allowed".
Of course, focuses almost exclusively on male/female setup, so it does not really protect children against homosexual molestors (and does not adequately protect young boys against woman molestors).
And the setup is also not protected against incest and against hypocrites and liars (what molestors are in general).
But as prevention tools, I would say that the orthodox system is not really so bad. The problem arises once the abuse took place: here I think that the victim is worse off in a jewish orthodox setup than in a more open society.
1) Victims will be stigmatised and stigmatisation is particularly bad in the jewish-orthodox society (but the victim will also be stigmatised in an open society and will suffer from it).
2) There is all the problem with cover-up, counter-attacks by the molestor ("lashon hara, etc")
But here also: this also happens in the open society.
I will cite a few cases:
a) in France, a stepfather regularly raped his stepdaughter (from childhood on till he died). The stepdaughter fled her home. The police brought her back. Later, she went to a shelter. The stepfather brought her back. A magazine published an article about this "very caring father" whom the "authorities" were depriving of his "parental rights" and how he was fighting to get his beloved child back. This woman had 7 children with this stepfather. She went to hospital to deliver them. They asked who was the father. The stepfather openly stated that they were his children. Everyone in this small village knew what was going on. But the considered the family "undesirable", marginalised. When the authorities came, the stepfather chased them away with a rifle, so they did not come anymore.
To sum up: no one helped this woman till her stepfather died. (you can look up the theme under "Lydia Gouardo")
b) Many victims who suffer abuse within the family tell their mothers, but they do not believe them. When they are adult, the press charges, and the family "excommunicates" them, not the perpetrator.
I agree that it is better not to be repressive and more open with your body. But nothing indicates that child molestation is more prevalent in repressed societies than in open ones.
But of course, it is a lie if the society denies the existence of abuse, since it happens everywhere.
And I forgot:
An important disadvantage of very "hierarchical" societies (as the jewish-orthodox) is that children have less tools to defend themselves, to rebell against authority (when it is abused).
This is an important disadvantage indeed.
A number of studies have shown that in America from 3% to 20% of students have been sexually baused by a public school teacher.
Any advice on how to talk to a 13 yr old modern orthodox kid about sex, masturbation and body?
Wife and I have had a birds and bees discussion with him, together, explaining that sex is not the mechanical thing you learn from your friends (and he has learned it that way). Its more. we also explained why we believe that you should wait to have sex until your emotionally mature, like after 18 or so, because decisions made now with immature attitude have lasting effects. No torah crap, just common sense.
But what about masturbation, what to say, or not say?
Is it Fuck what the yeshiva says (if, indeed, it says anything at all),or should I find out what they say? what should I say? I know one problem is I bring vibes of shame to the discussion, so I need to work on myself first, but in the meantime, what would you say if you could?
This is an outstanding post--i don't agree with every detail,but it is really first rate--Thank you.
i wish these child predators or supporters of child predators would read your post:
rabbi matis weinberg
rabbi avrohom mondorowitz
david mandel
rabbi baruch lanner
sir mordecai gafni
rabbi whatever kolko
Their supporters/defenders--past &/or present:
rabbi matt tropp
rabbi perry tirschwell
the ou
ner yisroel
ohel
rabbi saul berman(offered a barely heard retraction of his support)
torah temmimah
....and too many more to name...
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