Baal Habos
What do Chazal say on Ish omo ve'oviv tirohu, ve'es shabsosai tishmoriu?
We are taught the attitude you mention in school very early on in our lives.
there's a difference between disappointing your parents and completely devastating them to the point where they might never want to have anything to do with you again. the former is a little easier than the latter.
I've heard about one skeptic who plans on marrying a shiksa
Giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you are quoting someone when you use the denigrating term "shiksa"!
Halo, you're absolutely right.
Frum, what? Since when is Shikseh a denigrating term?! It's nowhere near like what's going Jackie Mason now.
>We are taught the attitude you mention in school very early on in our lives.
Yep, I agree what I said is no real chiddush on the religious side.
Greta post. I like to call it "frum arrogance." There's just no negotiating with extremists.
BHB,
I would have to agree with Halo on this one. It's because of the attitude pt mentioned, that OJ parent have learned to accept it. But sadly it doesn't make it any easier later in life when their kids struggle to make a living.
BHB,
Did you take a look in Kugel's book for "Es La'Asos L'Hashem"?
I'm not sure if you're thinking of someone else, but I might have told you about the guy who wasn't going to tell his parents, but if it was me, you're mixing it up a bit. He wasn't actually proposing that because he was in a relationship with someone and was faced with the situation. He simply said that if he was faced with that kind of situation, that's what he would consider doing. Doesn't actually change your point, but just thought I'd clarify, in case it was the story I had told you which you were referring to.
Mark, I read his book, but I don't recall the reference.
Hedyot, yes, it was you that I heard the story from, and as I said in the post, the details were a bit hazy.
lets see - your kids spend 10 hours a day in a day school - and whether its mixed or not, their limudaie kodesh teachers are mostly chareidi - hammering this attitude of talmud torah k'neged kulam for 10 years! They come home and eat dinner and hang out a bit, go to shul with their parents on shabbos - and then get sent off to israel - again with the charedi teachers hammering this attitude into them - and we are surprised by their decisions when they are older?
>and we are surprised by their decisions when they are older?
Not at all. I understand the decision. It's the emotion behind the decision, or lack of it as to how the parents will care, that I'm referring to. The lack of angst, shall we say, on the part of Yeshiva boys.
There's a big difference between the yeshiva guy and the skeptic. The parents of the yeshiva guy, while they might prefer that he have a profession, usually see both a career and learning as valid options. They may prefer one over the other, (perhaps strongly), but both are valid ways of life. The skeptic, on the other hand, is presenting his parents with a way of life that they see as invalid and that repudates everything they have taught their child. The second is clearly much worse.
There is also "talmud torah keneged kulam" which is usually interpreted as learning is the point of existance, everything else is a waste of time (bittul torah), is done so that others may learn, or for nebachs who can't learn.
And finally, Kibad av was Eisav's middah, so it can't really be worth much, right?
>And finally, Kibad av was Eisav's middah, so it can't really be worth much, right?
LOL. Gut Gezokt. There's an Upshlug for everything.
Sorry for side tracking a little, but the schmooze in all honesty should go like this:
BHB: So what does your son/son-in-law do?
Other: He's a Rebbe/fund raiser/still
learning/Tutoring/Learning/Shteiging.
BHB: Are you happy with that?
Other: Not really/Not at all. I really wanted him to be a lawyer/accountant/doctor but I didn't give him the education he would have needed for that, and he is B"H doing the same to his children, so he cannot have too much ta'anes on me.
>... but I didn't give him the education he would have needed for that, and he is B"H doing the same to his children, so he cannot have too much ta'anes on me.
Not in my Baalebattaish circles. Most kids have an adequate education to go to Grad school. The kids choose to sit and learn instead of work. On the contrary, they can have no taanos to us, but their own children can certainly have Taanos. My kids are CHOOSING to step back into the ghetto, leaving the grandchildren without the choice and tools their parents were graced with.
So I guess, I am writing for your einklach.
BHB,
He doesn't mention it, he just quotes the Posuk and Gemarah on it on a separate page before beginning the book. If you have it take a look, otherwise forget it, it's not that important.
>My kids are CHOOSING to step back into the ghetto, leaving the grandchildren without the choice and tools their parents were graced with.
I don't know how you take that. One thing is all the rest of it, but self destruction is hard to witness when happening to one's family.
And on the general point of your post, I have to agree with a previous commenter that there is a difference between disappointing one's parents, and completely devastating them. That said, you still have a point. Personally, I tried as I hard as I could to keep my new "Meshugas" away from my father, and he found out after a while, when confronting me directly and I had no choice but to spill the beans. And even then, I could have wiggled out of it had I wanted and told him what he wanted to hear, but I didn't because I couldn't lie to him. In short there was no great Tzidkus going on here, but my primary concern was not letting my father down. So you're correct there.
Mark, I don;t have that Sefer anymore. 
>I don't know how you take that. One thing is all the rest of it, but self destruction is hard to witness when happening to one's family.
Tsuros Rabim - Chatzi Nechama.
> And on the general point of your post, I have to agree with a previous commenter that there is a difference between disappointing one's parents, and completely devastating them.
Sure, I agree with him too!
>That said, you still have a point.
I agree with that too!
Have you been following XGHs place lately. He has gone completely bonkers, especially with his latest post (the first few paragraphs). I intend to write something there, but I don't have the Koach to get into a punching match with him, though I will try to come up with one coherent comment and let the rest of you judge.
Im not sure, but since when does Kibud av v'em mean finding a career that they want? What if instead of learning and being a rabbi, this individual went on to become a mechanic or botonist, would you still claim he is being disrespectful of his parents? Me thinks you are only picking here because he went on to being a rabbi and not a "normal" job.
MArk, I haven;t been following GH much, too involved in OP philosphy and I have a hard time coming to grips with that.
Holy, can't you guys read? As I've said a few times, it's the ATTITUDE that I object too, not the actual career difference. No one should pick a career to satisfy their parents, and I thought I spelled that out.
What attitude?
>What attitude?
As I said in the post
"But what I've noticed is the Bnei Torah don't seem to even care that they're letting their parent's down."
HH, It's possible you won't relate because you don't know what Yeshivish OJ culture is like.
some charedi people even look down at their parents because they think their parents lack yiras shamayim.
Off topic - I still love XGH's blog after all these years. He brings humor and passion to what ever side he's on (unless he's depressed)
> some charedi people even look down at their parents because they think their parents lack yiras shamayim.
Oy vey. I never really thought of it that way, but it's probably true.
>Off topic - I still love XGH's blog after all these years. He brings humor and passion to what ever side he's on (unless he's depressed)
He's still the King. I just can't relate to a lot of that "intelleOrthopraxis". Just come out and say it "I'm stuck".
>Just come out and say it "I'm stuck".
I think it's more complicated than that. I think he really feels value in it. He doesn't have as negative attitude as you do. That may have to do with the fact that he's LWMO
> think he really feels value in it.
I do too.
>He doesn't have as negative attitude as you do.
That is very true
> That may have to do with the fact that he's LWMO
Probably
> think he really feels value in it.
>I do too.
you think frumkeit has value over a secular lifestyle? If so, why would you say you're stuck?
Well, I would like to know if its true they "don't care" about disappointing their parents. The problem here is the parents that put them in a spot that they can actually worry about making an honest career decision without the parents over their necks.
>you think frumkeit has value over a secular lifestyle? If so, why would you say you're stuck?
I'm not saying in totality it has greater value than the secular system. But it certainly has value. And I think if XGH thinks it does have greater value, it's because he's stuck. It's another form of Cognitive Dissonance.
>The problem here is the parents that put them in a spot that they can actually worry about making an honest career decision without the parents over their necks.
Can you rephrase? Or did you too have a yeshiva education? 
"Bnei Torah don't seem to care that they're letting their parents down"
Some do, some don't. Do you think they're relatively less considerate of their parents' feelings than teens who go OTD? Or non-Jews? or reform teens? I'm all for well-aimed generalizations but this one's pretty shaky. I'll grant that there's that instilled attitude that they're obeying a Higher Power, and so their poor unenlightened parents' feelings are irrelevant. But not always---far more often, the parents themselves give mixed signals. Many of these parents are quite wimpy &/or passive/aggressive--they kvetch to others that they're unhappy w/their kids' choices, but did they ever clearly, unequivocally voice their feelings to the child in question? Better yet, did they declare that they have no intention of supporting that lifestyle? Almost never. Few frum parents have the guts to go against the prevailing winds within frum society on even the most trivial matters; no one wants to be less frum than the "Cohens".
...And even when parents do whine about it, they typically say, "If I were a millionaire and could afford to support all my kids in learning for life, I'd love to, but unfortunately I'm not able..."
What a cop-out! Pure PC drivel. Little Moishy Kollelboy is statistically very unlikely to be that one-in-a-thousand someone who actually learns 95% of their 10 hours worth of siddorim (or even 75%)---so Why? WHY would a parent "love" for their kid to live what is effectively a very undemanding, unstructured, unproductive (not to say lazy) existence, even if leavened with a few hours of real learning?! It's mindless, but there you go. For every kids these days sitting and learning, there's at least one parent whining ineffectually about expenses--(the trip to Israel! the $60G wedding! new YomTov outfits for the grandkids! the sterling esrog-box for a bar mitzvah gift!)---while telling everyone they're kid's learning in this or that yeshiva, as if that were in itself a sign of tremendous intellectual accomplishment.
JS, Just as I'm not talking about teens who are becoming Rebbeim, I'm not talking about OTD teens who are dropping out of High School. I'm talking about Skeptic young adults. As a rule, they seem to be very considerate of their parents' feelings, assuming they had a good relationship with them all along. And I think you'd be surprized at how many parents are quite vocal with their childrens' choices. Yet, I think you are alluding to a valid point, similiar to that raised by others, namely that sitting in learning is not as painful to parents as apostacy is. When commiserating amongst ourselves, the parents often say, better too frum than not frum enough. So, you're probably right, the attitude does trickle down to the kids. Yet, I don't see any sense of angst on the part of these Bnai Torah. Of course, that's only my personal anectodal experience.
>And I think if XGH thinks it does have greater value, it's because he's stuck. It's another form of Cognitive Dissonance.
if you say so, Doctor
>...And even when parents do whine about it, they typically say, "If I were a millionaire and could afford to support all my kids in learning for life, I'd love to, but unfortunately I'm not able..."
That is very true, many equivocate that way. I usually come out and say it "I don't believe in it except for yechidim"
> >And I think if XGH thinks it does have greater value, it's because he's stuck. It's another form of Cognitive Dissonance.
>if you say so, Doctor
I'll ask him. And CC you.
"So who has real Kibud Av V'em? The Bnei Torah or the Skeptics?"
Allow me to throw my two cents in if I may.
"Skeptics" (known also as traitors) are spineless people who are selfish, undisciplined and dishonest and who will invariably do whatever is easiest for themselves. If fooling their parents is easier, they'll do that.
> Hidden Skeptics, selfish????
ROFL. Maybe cowardly, but certainly not selfish.
> If fooling their parents is easier, they'll do that.
You put the cart before the horse. Whatever the skeptics do, you will claim is the easier way.
Bos, people like you have so little backbone, it's a miracle you can sit upright and type this.
>Can you rephrase? Or did you too have a yeshiva education?
Sorry. I am simply saying, why should any parent put their child on spot in that the child, will have to feel uncomfortable when he decides NOT to find job in what their parents expected. The fact that parents have career expectations (at least in this case) is the problem, not with the child being honest about a different field that excites them more.
> Bos, people like you have so little backbone, it's a miracle you can sit upright and type this.
For once, you speak the truth.
>Sorry. I am simply saying, why should any parent put their child on spot in that the child, will have to feel uncomfortable when he decides NOT to find job in what their parents expected. The fact that parents have career expectations (at least in this case) is the problem, not with the child being honest about a different field that excites them more.
Still unclear (re-read it and see if you left something out), but I think I get your drift.
A) I am simply saying, why should any parent put their child on spot in that the child, will have to feel uncomfortable when he decides to live a normal secular life as lived my hundreds of millions of Americans. The fact that parents have religious expectations (at least in this case) is the problem, not with the child being honest about a different was of life that excites them more
B) how, as I've said many times, it's not the actual shift. I can
t really blame the Bnei Torah for doing as they've been brainwashed. I am ticked off by the lack of caring as to how the parents feel.
Well, it looks like you understood me fine, except you put in religion, where I was talking about this specific instant of career.
>Well, it looks like you understood me fine, except you put in religion, where I was talking about this specific instant of career.
I'm comparing the letdown of not meeting expectations or desires, makes no difference in what.
Of course it does. One is leaving your identiy and heritage (from the perspective of the parents), the other is a job.
Since when is Shikseh a denigrating term?!
Seriously? Tell me that you're not aware of its derivation from sheketz, abomination?
The word is used way too loosely, but even when used in a joking manner it often has a denigrating tone. People make excuses for the word the same way they make excuses for "shvartze", which doesn't have an objectionable origin but is almost always used as a term of disdain.
> People make excuses for the word the same way they make excuses for "shvartze", which doesn't have an objectionable origin but is almost always used as a term of disdain.
Of course, I'm aware of the origin. But there you have it, it's not the derivation that counts, it's the usage. I disdain the 'Shva---" word, but I have no compunction with using the Shikseh word. I erred in my sidebar poll by including the Shikze to mir remark, because people may have chosen that segment just to get the joke across. So discounting that category, the numbers don't differ much, so there's "yesh al me lismoch".
>because people may have chosen that segment just to get the joke across.
Very perceptive. I can see you won't be working for any polling organizations any time soon though.
"So who has real Kibud Av V'em? The Bnei Torah or the Skeptics? And of course, that's just another manifestation of the problem with the Torah and even Torah Morality. It's really only lip-service to morality."
Bos, I suppose according to you, Bernard Madoff http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Mad...estment_scandal should be exonerated. After all, he can claim "Your Honor, the reason I did not tell my clients that $65 billion in stock holdings were fictitious is not because I wanted to cheat them, God forbid, and certainly not because I am a dishonest person. Rather, I didn't want to upset them. I wanted to make them happy. I really care about my fellow man, unlike other financial managers who are always disappointing people."
I think you may be onto something, Bos. You should speak to Madoff's defense attorney.
test
I'm a 40 something BT who became frum around the age of 15. To this day I'm sure my parents would prefer I had chosen a non-Orthodox life. They think I made my life too hard (they happen to be right). Of course, they brought me up to be traditional Conservative, so why should they be upset that I crossed the line to MO?
But my point is that it's my life, and I made my choice. To this day I have angst about "disappointing" my parents. Since I'm confident I made the best choice for me, I'm not sure what's so great about having the angst.
sorry, not on your side on this one. kids should not feel guilty by making a lifestyle choice that wasn't quite what their parents wanted. and the parents should get over it. (and no, by making a particular lifestyle choice, we didn't MAKE our parents want to disown us. They are accountable for their own decisions just as well as we are.) that goes for the frum as well as the fry.
i happen to believe that when OTD's take such great pains to hide things from their parents, it's not out of love, but fear.
>that goes for the frum as well as the fry.
Frei (free in German) not fry
>i happen to believe that when OTD's take such great pains to hide things from their parents, it's not out of love, but fear.
I'd say it is a little of both
>happen to believe that when OTD's take such great pains to hide things from their parents, it's not out of love, but fear.
fear of what? Disappointing their parents?
>Not really/Not at all. I really wanted him to be a lawyer/accountant/doctor but this is what he wants to do.
This is not what he wants to do. The Yeshiva has taken over his mind and convinced HIM that this is what he wants to do. The Yeshiva world has created a bunch of ROBOTS . Unthinking ROBOTS who can only say what they Yeshiva tells them to say..... Avi
Tesyaa.
>They think I made my life too hard (they happen to be right).
Are you saying you regret it?
> Since I'm confident I made the best choice for me, I'm not sure what's so great about having the angst.
See my comment below to Kisarita
> kids should not feel guilty by making a lifestyle choice that wasn't quite what their parents wanted. and the parents should get over it.
Kisarita, I'll try to say it one more time. Everyone should feel to make their own choices. And they shouldn't feel guilty about it. It's not that they're doing anything wrong. But they should feel bad for disappointing. Thais is NOT the same as guilt.
BTW, such nice namaes, Tesyaa & Kisarita.
>i happen to believe that when OTD's take such great pains to hide things from their parents, it's not out of love, but fear.
I second anon's question, fear of what? Fear of how their parents will take it! Which is exactly my point.
>I'd say it is a little of both
What are you afreaid of?
What are you afreaid of?**************************************
That I made the wrong choice.,,,Avi
That's why you're not telling your Mommy?
>What are you afreaid of?
I wasn't referring to myself per se. But someone who is still getting supported by their parents may fear getting cut off. As far as I'm concerned I'd rather not go through the whole drama for no good reason. If I could live my life more or less as I want and not hurt them, then that is the best of both worlds
by the way, the same applies for me as far as my career is concerned. I may want to quit and live "off the land" for a while. but part of what stops me is society's and my parents wishes. I'm not saying it's the only reason, but it is a factor.
I just want to point out to tesyaa and kisarita that it's not the same, going OTD and becoming a BT. When you go BT, you're only letting down your parents, you're not quite devastating them. Free choice is a value that is appreciated in secular culture, but hardly in the frum one. Also, to a frum parent it's often the end of the world if their kid goes OTD because they have all kinds of absolutist beliefs including the kid will spend an eternity in hell for the decision and countless other similar hangups which are hardly relevant to those who go BT.
Also, to a frum parent it's often the end of the world if their kid goes OTD because they have all kinds of absolutist beliefs including the kid will spend an eternity in hell for the decision and countless other similar hangups which are hardly relevant to those who go BT.
offthederech | Homepage | 03.21.09 - 8:55 am | #************************************** Sorry, but that is not always the case. If you come from a frum family as I do and you go OTD there are plenty of people to judge you and feel sorry for you including your own kids. Do you have any idea how thorny an issue it is when your grandchildren ask you a question and you really are afraid to answer it. All I can do is say ask your father. And thjen the kid thinks, what is my grandfather hiding from me and why.....Avi
I would disagree with you and say that there are people on both sides of the tracks. You think that all the people learning and letting down their parents are only the ones that learn, but the ones that marry shiksa are so worried about their parents? I know several people that married shiksas and didn't care about what their parents thought at all and didn't care what it would do. They wanted to live their lives. Also, I know several people that wanted to learn the rest of their life and either didn't or figured out a way that would be pleasing to their parents/in-laws. So, although I agree there are a lot of people that learn all day that are living off their parents and disappointing them, there are also people that marry shiksas that care nothing about their parents opinion and don't even try to convert and make some kind of compromise or even think about what they are doing to their parents.
GH, on what grounds do you base your claims that kids who decide to learn don't feel any regret about disappointing their parents?
Also:
-> ...And even when parents do whine about it, they typically say, "If I were a millionaire and could afford to support all my kids in learning for life, I'd love to, but unfortunately I'm not able..."
What a cop-out! Pure PC drivel. Little Moishy Kollelboy is statistically very unlikely to be that one-in-a-thousand someone who actually learns 95% of their 10 hours worth of siddorim (or even 75%)---so Why? WHY would a parent "love" for their kid to live what is effectively a very undemanding, unstructured, unproductive (not to say lazy) existence, even if leavened with a few hours of real learning?! It's mindless, but there you go.
That's wrong. I agree that it's totally not for everybody, but for those for whom it's appropriate, Kollel is very productive. We (Orthodox Jews) believe that limud Torah keeps the world going. Also, I know plenty of Kollel guys (both in YU and in other yeshios), and I can assure you that the ones I know all keep AT LEAST 95% of their sedorim. I think it is insulting of you to assume that 9/10 of Kollel guys don't keep their sedorim.
Let me state that I don't approve of people going to Kollel by leaching off their parents who can't afford it. I know a couple in my neighborhood who skimp on necessities in order to support their son, and I think it's absolutely despicable of the son to put his parents in that situation. But for the right person in the right circumstance, it's great.
Fear of what?
-Fear of conflict
-Fear of being cut off
-fear of not being able to stick with our decision
-irrational existential fear of upsetting the status quo
My farther is a horrible man and if I defend myself in anyway from his verbal attacks he says 'you're going straight to hell because you don't have any respect for me' what should I do
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