Baal Habos
Is this serious? This boils down to, "He shouldn't have it, so don't give it back to him." Its a dangerous denial of propery rights. Its a short step to, "He shouldn't have it, so take it from him."
The worst part is, "if one discovers a non-kosher cell phone and knows who the owner is, and knows for a fact or has a reason to suspect the owner uses the phone for prohibited access..."
Since when is "reason to suspect" good enough to convict? (Or withhold someone's property?)
>Since when is "reason to suspect" good enough to convict? (Or withhold someone's property?)
Ais laasos lashem hefeiru sorasecha.
If one returns it one is oiver on lifnei iveir lo siten michshol. Hasovas aveidoh is a mitsvas esseh. It should be a case of essh doiche lo se'eseh?
You see not only are skeptics smart, they have smart spouses too.
This psack is ridiculous and wrong, nothing more needs to be said.
btw my son is current learning Ali metzios, and i have to tell relearning the rules of hashovan aveida as a Kofer is an eye opening experience, as to the stupidity, and how wrong they are. The main factor that needs to be judged whether the item needs to be returned, is if whether the loser was "meyaitish" (he gave up on finding the lost item). If you think in regards to fairness this shouldn't be a factor at all. if you know who lost the item, u should return it no matter what the losers current thought process is.
But this is the morality that they make sure to teach our kids as soon as they start learning gemorah.
>Ais laasos lashem hefeiru sorasecha.
You know BHB, James Kugel has that in front of his latest book, so I guess he is also right.
>If one returns it one is oiver on lifnei iveir lo siten michshol. Hasovas aveidoh is a mitsvas esseh. It should be a case of essh doiche lo se'eseh?
Very good PT, but maybe there is also an Eseh of Hocheach Tochiach, and although it's not a Stirah to returning the phone, if he does, his Tochachah is invalidated, so we have Ain Esseh Docheh Es Lo Saaseh V'Eseh.
Within the framework of halacha, the rabbi's ruling may be perfectly valid.The problem is with the framework itself, which is every bit as man-made as the rabbi's false teeth.
You guys just don't get it. Hefker Bezdin hefker, etc. These are the tools of the rabbinical trade. For example, is there HAshovas aveidah by a goy? Or to a Tsedukkee? I imagine not; if so they can always say there's no H"A when someone is oiver their "current Takkonah". Which is basically what Erin is saying.... Cute name, Erin.
MArk, which book is that?
There is a good article on this type of thing here:
http://www.jewishideas.org/artic...daism-
consensus
> Cute name, Erin.
Okay, okay...there are other blogs for that.
Logician, great article. Not exactly what I was referring to, but yes very appropriate. The Torah is not what the Torah says, it is what the Rabbinate says it is.
letzette, err.... Never mind.
>MArk, which book is that?
I don't get the question. Do you think I learned Gemarah all these years in vain. One of the benefits of learning Gemarah is that you can always take the other side. There is always place to Drei.
BHB
I'm sorry, I thought you were referring to my last comment. The book is "How to Read The Bible" and if you have it, it's on a separate page, after the title page and such.
This just goes to prove my point. There are no real "gedolim " around anymore ( or if there ever was ) the supposed " gedolim " are really all "ketanim " they find work to do so they look like they are all busy learning. All they are really doing is getting involved in something that has no importance to anyone, and nobody really gives a damn. Oh gee I found a cell phone in the streets of Manhattan, let me go track down the owner......Avi
Belated Happy Purim!
So on Purim you dress as a skeptic that really believes in TMS? LOL
Ok BHB I took your advice. I am reading almost every page of Kugels " how to read the bible" Your advice was good. This is an amazing book. Even my "aishes Chayil " browsed through a few pages, but so far did not find anything to make her stop reading it . She probably was reading the wrong pages.....Avi
>. Even my "aishes Chayil " browsed through a few pages, but so far did not find anything to make her stop reading it .
You sure you want to go down that path? I guess the answer is of course. But I am very ambivalent about that. My wife has a hard to keeping things in to herself. If she goes fully skeptic, it will manifest itself very clearly in our relationships with the kids. And that's dangerous.
>So on Purim you dress as a skeptic that really believes in TMS?
I dress like you? 
You sure you want to go down that path? I guess the answer is of course. But I am very ambivalent about that. My wife has a hard to keeping things in to herself. **************************************It's OK BHB. No matter what challanges I throw in front of her, she always falls back on
"but the torah says " In her world the torah is the final answer to everything.She will be fine....Avi
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