Why is the first link to the Universal in the sports section? (http://deportes.eluniversal.com)
Hey, Quico, thanks for the Vermont book link. Being a new Vermonter (two years), I should get it. I have never met a Vermont separatist and any time they are mentioned here it's to make a joke, but apparently a few of them take themselves seriously (perhaps like those who believe that all this talk (and pics) of astronauts visiting the moon is a propagandistic hoax of the US government). In any event, oil being in short supply here, maybe I should serve as a liaison between the new Vermont and Zulia republics.
The only serious movement I've read about Zulia and separatism is really an organization that wants to promote an Autonomic constitution in the same way Santa Cruz has. I wonder if that's why Chavez made such a fuss about Zulia: now that Santa Cruz has proven that the majority of the province opposes centralization and Evo's policies he might be freaked out Zulia might get the same idea about opposing his centralization and policies.
OT... jejeje, remember that parody of the german movie The Fall, made after the december referendum?
http://fakesteve.blogspot.com/20...arys-
brain.html
You have to look at this two ways:
First: Revolutions are paranoid, because, in a sense, they are politics, to the nth power; finding new problems to solve, even if they do not exist in the first place. In another sense, Revolutions have to be against something and need enemies just like an inmune system needs stimuli. Subordinates get brownie points for denouncing enemies, real or otherwise. It gets nasty when they turn on themselves. It's like a self-inmune reaction, if you catch my drift.
Second: Any form of autonomy raises the hackles of this kind of totalitarian "revolutionaries". They are done for, if anything or anyone has the possibility of saying 2+2=4 when the revolutions says it should be 5 or just plain NO. Whether it is a region, private enterprise and property, or any group of people. Anything autonomous IS dangerous to their designs and to their very existence.
I believe that outright separatism makes Chavez more comfortable because, first, they are easier to denounce with a cheap patriotic appeal, and second, those intent on autonomy will care how the government is run, and take the fight to the head of government. In Bolivia these regional movements will insist on removing Evo, because he threatens them.
Quico, it is not only Zulia, but also Carabobo. Chavez has said more than once our region can be associated with the place where Venezuela's freedom was won (obviously, the Carabobo battle, even though that is not completely true, as Katy would tell you), but also with a city where people broke away with the Gran Colombia. He has hinted that also because Valencia is one of those areas that mostly votes against him.
Chavez's last remarks have been about SEVERAL regions wanting to break away with Venezuela. So we can imagine: Zulia, Carabobo, perhaps even Caracas, Margarita and so on.
The bloke has definitely lost his marbles.
I don't understand--aren't opposition movements in Zulia talking about an "autonomy" vote? Is your argument that that's not the same thing as secession or that the stories of the autonomy vote are inaccurate?
If it's the latter then it's a big deal but if it's the former I think you are overstating the case that there is no "baseline credibility" for Chavez to say they are talking about secession. If a state was to declare itself largely autonomous from the federal government thats pretty close to secession. Maybe I'm just not understanding your point.
There is the Rumbo Propio proposal. Here you can find a rebuttal to the lie, repeated a thousandth time by Chavez;
http://www.odlv.org/articulo.php?id=24
In a federal or descentralized government, if it's called that, states are largely autonomous.
But to Chavez "secession" and "treason" is just not bowing following his orders, or even trying to think them through. He, according to the brownoses is the people and is Venezuela. To everyone else he is a very bad attempt at being Fidel Castro.
Rumbo proprio is three cats. But *even those three cats* are not calling for secession! Anybody calling for the separation of Zulia and Venezuela would be laughed off the stage in a second: almost all Zulianos feel deeply Venezuelan.
The real call for "autonomy" is nothing more than a call for the "autonomy" already written into the constitution - you remember, the ones chavistas wrote and chavez championed, the one that was "the best in the world" right up until he decided half of it had to be changed. That constitution guaranteed that a percentage of oil revenues had to be handed directly to state and local governments. That autonomy is being violated by the new Windfall Oil Profits tax.
We do have a problem with constant constitutional violations in Venezuela...it doesn't exaclty come from our side.
Quico, it has been violated before during Chavismo. I know several people who worked for things such as social programs for oppo governorships and they told me how many times the government would simply not send money long due to those states and they had to look for loans abroad .
Expect much more of that from Chavismo after the oppo takes over several states in November.
Expect much more of that from Chavismo after the oppo takes over several states in November...
Whisfull thinking Mein freund Kepler.
Chavismo has had it's natural paranoia aroused by the things that have transpired in Bolivia.
Not even the Bolivians are separatists.
Plus, it's just plain easy to say "separatism" and score some cheap patriotic points with the ignorant.
What? Do you think we are not going to win several states?
What were you saying about the referendum, Luis?
And what if Zulia separatism existed?
What's the problem?
They are somehow different than other venezuelans: they have a totally different way of talking, a special music that has nothing to do with that of other parts of the country, different crafts, different cuisine and different sense of humour.
They are a distinct society within Venezuela.
I don't see any problem that Zulianos want to be zulianos.
yes Bruni, but these are not characteristics that are so intrinsic, like religion vs " ideology",as those that exist in Tibet for instance.
The Chinese have eliminated their rights to the true Karmapa and to the true nature of the Dalai Lama etc.
These types of things do not happen more in Zulia than in the rest of the country.Each region is a world, just like here in USA, and perhaps some regions are more unique worlds than others, yet all regions in Venezuela are worlds of a world.Tibet is not part of the Chinese world due to very deep differences in values and lineage.
If each region wants to separate,for other than the deepest realities, then we will end of up with too many problems.We will be parsing words obsessively, and that leads to nonsense and unnecessary divisions.
I have always been wary of separatism, because States are like clubs. They are defined by whom they exclude, firstly, and because when a State is formed, someone is given new powers, including usually those of making war or having "national security" priorities, or deciding to preserve and favor a particular culture to the detriment of others. Heh! Simply things that will harm rather than benefit individual citizens.
I believe that the role of State is primarily the defense of individual's rights, and is only legitimate as the collective expression of the desire for such a defense. Creating a new state should not be excused by the fact that now you are oppressed by your countrymen. I can imagine the thoughts of many citizens of such newly minted states wondering Why the heck did we become independent for?
The Bolivian "separatists" and the Zulian "separatists" DO NOT want warmaking powers, or to pass oppressive laws on "foreigners" or anybody not speaking the local jargon well.
They want mostly autonomy from oppressive national governments on a mad course to a political system that is either a total failure or nonexistent.
On the long run their autonomy will greatly benefit the rest of Venezuela and Bolivia. I can only imagine what it would have meant both for all Venezuela and for my hometown Caracas if all that oil wealth had gone to the regions and municipalities involved instead of being "managed" by the likes of Carlos Andres Perez and Hugo Chavez.
There is separation and there is some form of autonomy.
Venezuela being a true melting pot, one cannot invoke religion or race as a reason for separation. But Venezuela is supposed to be a federation of States and not only we are far from that, but Chavez has centralized even more and wants more centralization.
Regional differences exist, specially between Zulia and the rest of the country. And regional realities, totally different from Caracas' exist as well.
I don't see anything wrong with Zulianos saying they want more autonomy, even if they invoke the S-word. When Chavez is demonizing the word, and the opposition (including those in this blog) are saying "no, Zulianos would never want that!" I think they are playing into Chavez trap.
Zulianos are different, and they are responsaible for a large chunk of Venezuela's resources. They have the right to ask Chavez : where is the beef?
Bruni.
"They have the right to ask Chavez : where is the beef?"
Right
First, Chavez with his idiotic Ley de Tierras literally destroyed the means to produce both beef and milk in Zulia.
Second, most of the pollution related to oil extraction REMAINS in Zulia.
Third, the hateful persecution of ex-oil workers, even inside PDVSA contractors, hit Zulianos particularly hard.
But they do not need to separate from Venezuela. They only need what the rest of Venezuela needs. Autonomy is a protection against dictatorship and petrostate demagoguery. But rather than separate Zulia from Venezuela, we should begin by separating a certain Hugo from the position in which he can cause harm to all Venezuelans.
Lorenzo, and I am sure that Zulia would make an excellent and dependable US ally in the region.
Given the comments that I have read here, i don't see this 'autonomy' movement as at all benign.
But, hey, that's just me.
I am certain that the white folk in Santa Cruz and Caracas, and the US wouldn't agree with this assesment.
How's that Iraq 'autonomy' working for your friends in Washington? 
Lorenzo said: "But they do not need to separate from Venezuela. They only need what the rest of Venezuela needs. Autonomy is a protection against dictatorship and petrostate demagoguery. But rather than separate Zulia from Venezuela, we should begin by separating a certain Hugo from the position in which he can cause harm to all Venezuelans.
Lorenzo Albano | 05.10.08 - 7:04 pm |
Lorenzo, bro, you guys tried that crap six years ago--and it didn't go over too well with your fellow Venezuelans. Some of your homies even had to flee to Miami and Europe.
Not very smart.
Don't worry, Slave, his idiotic "revolution" will do him in sooner or later because, you know, "socialism" does not work, never will work, and most likely kills governments that have not transitioned into totalitarian dictatorships before socialist economic failure sets in. We just have to be a little patient. The "homies" will return from Miami and Europe, and finish the taking out of the garbage. Autonomy is not about separation. It is about limiting government power.
Lorenzo, sorry bro,
but the 'homiles' won't come back, no.
Posada Carilles and others will waste away in Miami--as Latin American moves further away from oligarch oppression, Euro racism, and US sponsored terror governments that disappear union workers, students, and other assorted folks that you ignorantly deem 'garbage'.
LOL
No, your language of 'autonomy' is transparent to anyone that hasn't been deeply brainwashed into believing that the Iraq occupation is for 'democracy'. LOL
You will continue to loose until you get with a more democratic, people-centered program of good governance. For that I will not hold my breath. Stay in Miami and commiserate with your homies--talk about how you tortured Iraqis for Uncle Sam and Chilean students for Sammie and Pinochet. Yes, I see you pine for the good old days of US dominance in the region like a good little vendepatria.
Touche, to each his own.
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