More reactions...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080...i_ge/
oil_prices
OMG! Even Raul Reyes (qepd) shares our vision on the issue of eficacy/efficiency of the venezuelan governement...haha..hilarious
While the documents indicate that the FARC is appreciative of Venezuela's efforts, privately the guerrillas occasionally make fun of the Venezuelans' work habits. "It hasn't been easy for us to adapt to the way of being of the Venezuelans," complains Mr. Reyes in one document. "It doesn't seem as if they are conscious of their boring lack of formality." Mr. Chávez "always leaves things until the last moment."
Some Friends of the FARC ain't none too bright, either: "Police in Costa Rica staged a successful raid on a home belonging to alleged FARC sympathizers, and recovered $480,000 in cash, guided by information from the documents suggesting the money would be located there." If they got that cash from the FARC, didn't it occur to them that their info just MIGHT be there? It wouldn't have been a difficult thing to move it.
And does anyone have any idea how, as Bernardo Alvarez says, 230,000 U.S. manufacturing jobs depend on U.S. exports to Venezuela? AFAIK, it doesn't take a lot of people to refine oil.
"Another email describes a November meeting between two FARC commanders and Mr. Chávez. The commanders, Ricardo Granda and Iván Márquez, report back in the email that Mr. Chávez gave orders to create "rest areas" and hospital zones for the guerrillas to use on the Venezuelan side of the border." I thought those were supposedly in place long before last November.
And here we see (yet again) the hypocrisy of Hugo: "In one document dated January 2007, one top FARC commander speaks of a "loan" for $250 million to buy arms which the FARC will pay back once it has reached power."
Injerencia? Umm, ah...Look, George Bush!
So, hang on a minute, does this means that INTERPOL is about to say that we have been right ALL ALONG?
Quien se comio mi papaya??
"And does anyone have any idea how, as Bernardo Alvarez says, 230,000 U.S. manufacturing jobs depend on U.S. exports to Venezuela? AFAIK, it doesn't take a lot of people to refine oil."
It's "U.S. exports to Venezuela" (not VZ exports to the US generating refinery jobs), i.e. the manufactures the US exports to VZ. I am sceptical about the 230.000 figure though.
Isnt it interestint how the Wall Street Journal has avenues open to it that reveal the contents of the laptops?
As Quico made mention, it takes a certain amount of investigation/privilege to produce such resounding reportage. The underlying questions however are how and why this reportage is being conducted, outside of its dubious newsworthiness.
How is it that these laptops reach the US? Wouldnt the Colombian government have a far better use of them? I refuse to believe that Colombia does not have the sufficient tech know how making thier transport to the US an option.
Why is this being published in what Quico defines as the best journalistic real estate? To prove a point perhaps; to show a connection between the Ven Gov. and the Farc that is not easily explained? Putting the thumb on Chavez. All of the above - yes - but...
What made the Colombian Government seize an te opportunity, unlike any other it has taken in its struggle against the FARC, to forego international rules of engagement for this specific raid that netted this specific information?
Why then would this issue warrant the coveted real estate of the WSJ? What does not register to the reader is that the information being obtained is coming from a US source with US interests, and of which, at least, the WSJ has direct access to - again why are the laptops in US hands?
ANYONE Who believes that the US does not have its thumb on the pulse of EVERY latin American country is incredibly naive. The Colombian gov. bypassed Int. law (as the US often does) and went after a target that was sure to net a product whose content would nullify the illegality of the means of appropriation. Anyone arguing against this point of view essentially argues for an "Ends justifies the means" theory, which in practicality would serve both sides equally, to a general deterioration of society. Thus making a race to make right with the public via the most read real estate in print journalism a priority worth exchanging some secrets for some "hearts and minds".
Ekl Pulpo's earnest handwringing over "a general deterioration of society" is sooo touching. Come visit us in Caracas and experience it first hand, digo yo.
As to his indignant claim that Colombia and the US are guilty of "bypassing international law...", well, as a Venezuelan resident who follows Chavez's blunt and often brutal interventions in neighboring countries, all I can say is that I am deeply dismayed. Shocked even.
"How is it that these laptops reach the US? Wouldnt the Colombian government have a far better use of them? I refuse to believe that Colombia does not have the sufficient tech know how making thier transport to the US an option."
Nonsense:
- the article does not say that these laptops were in the US
- they remain in COL and Interpol made just copies of that data to check for manipulation
- COL does not lack expertise but wanted the data to be examined by an impartial entity, i.e. Interpol.
From El Universal:
De conformidad con el acuerdo firmado con Colombia el miércoles 12 de marzo en Bogotá, la ayuda de Interpol incluía el envío de una unidad de gestión de crisis a Bogotá para obtener copias exactas de los datos contenidos en los tres ordenadores portátiles, las tres llaves USB y los dos discos duros externos, a fin de llevar a cabo un análisis técnico independiente en materia de informática forense sobre dichos datos, informó la página web del organismo.
http://www.eluniversal.com/2008/
...9A1567401.shtml
My goodness, "dangerous precedents", no less...
What planet do you live on, Pulpy? Are you even vaguely aware of the Venezuelan government's "dangerous precedents" involving the brazen, fully documented subversion of democratically-elected governments in the hemisphere?
Your eloquent concerns for the rule of law, for "precedents", for all the civilized trappings of the way international relations should be conducted, are bringing tears to my eyes.
- the article does not say that these laptops were in the US
- they remain in COL and Interpol made just copies of that data to check for manipulation
Heh - Ok then, why is the WSJ so interested in reporting it on thier most valued pages?
Before anyone else goes on a tangent let me state the purpose of my original post. It is to illustrate that the US and its several overt and covert intelligence agencies know exactly what is going on everywhere in the Lat. Am. Thus making it possible for Colombia to make a gamble on raiding a cite that is certain to produce information usefull in helping the US. In the media rhetoric the question of legality will be superseded by the revelations contained therein. The journalistic equivalent of "shock and awe" and if you check yourlsef - are you shocked and awed? and if so why?
Shock and awe is essentially journalistic - else it would not be called "shock and awe" and the association between the two words in this context would not be recognizable to us in the manner in which we perceive them. (or rather the manner that has been fed to us and which has become normalized by its repetition)
Heh - Ok then, why is the WSJ so interested in reporting it on thier most valued pages?
Um, because it's news?
Thus making it possible for Colombia to make a gamble on raiding a cite that is certain to produce information usefull in helping the US.
In helping the US do what? Discredit Chavez? For whose benefit? Those who are inclined to listen to Chavez will do so no matter what the US does, says, or thinks. Moreover, in your brilliant analysis, does it occur to you that the raid was of greater benefit to Colombia than the US?
Dude, keep your day job.
Pulpo,
The sad thing is that when El Tiempo de Bogotá published more than 30 pages of RRs computer documents, http://www.eltiempo.com/conflict...O-3985321-
0.pdf many gave more credibility to the Web site of Venezuela's Information Ministry publishing the FARC statement ridiculing Colombia's claims about the computer files, saying computers couldn't have survived the Colombian army attack.
And when Globovisión showed a video of Chavez, reading fragments of one of those documents (pages 9-10 of the pdf above) before RRs was killed, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8...h?
v=8n8Nj5C6NqQ the chavista propaganda machine tried to dismiss the news with the “destabilization-attempt-driven-by-the empire” bullox.
Now that Interpol certifies that the FARC statement and the Chavez propaganda were BS (surprise-surprise), do you question any of the two? Do you ask why they did it with the same vehemence as you question the WSJ?
Pulpo, you can be surprised at what can be found in a computer's hard disk.
Computers are machines that can be very resistant and one can retrieve information from them after a shock that has destroyed a human being.
RR died because he tread on one of his mines during the Colombian bombing. I understand most of the guys died in such way, it was not like everyone was blown to tiny smitherings.
Did you see the corpses? I happened to see one picture and there were different levels of destruction. You can find a computer where the screen is destroyed and so a lot of the exterior and yet you can recover the data inside (on the other hand, you can have a computer that looks fine but you could have really destroyed everything inside by using a strong magnet)
So Pulpo if I understand correctly, your point is that the attack on the FARC camp was a carefuly planned maneuver by the US to uncover damming information about Chavez that could then be published in the WSJ?
Brilliant!
The fact that in the process they could kill or capture Reyes and recover information about FARC's operations was just a happy by-product, the icing on the cake to put it in other words.
You got to hand it to them those gringos are capable of anything just to make Chavez look bad.
Pulpito-- "...the US and its several overt and covert intelligence agencies know exactly what is going on everywhere in the Lat. Am." I think there's ample evidence that the U.S. and their intelligence agencies don't know their arse from a WMD, so what makes you think they know everything, everywhere in LatAm? The U.S. may be going through a pernicious, invasive (all too literally), and destructive period due to republican douche-bag-ism ideology, but they are CLEARLY pretty damn clueless about almost anything happening in the wider world. Do you really imagine GWB's government could analyze anything as complex and subtle as the political winds of LatAm? I don't, and the evidence of every bumbling step this administration has taken gives weight to my perspective.
So, what is the outcome of all this? Venezuela will not be put on "the list". There is no reason to stop the flow of petro dollars back into the States from all of our exports to Vezuela. That would hurt jobs in the States and hurt many in Venezuela who must rely on our exports...
It is very likely that Chavez and all of his upper level idiots who's names appear or can be directly connected to the FARC will have thier U.S. visas pulled and bank accounts frozen.
Just watch the fat bastard screem!
And he'd better watch his ass when traveling in other than Venezuela and Cuba. Remember Pinochet being nabbed temporarily in Europe? Chavez may have built his own cage.
Well the FARC still insists that the notebooks could not have survived the attack and the Venezuelan regime echoes that... meanwhile NASA just announced that the hard disk drives on the space shuttle that disintegrated upon re-entry, survived and the data too.
Pulpo, do a web search in Spanish and English on keywords related to "Venezuela Military Incursions" into Brazil, Guyana and Colombia and get back to me with the results then we can talk. The Guyana incursion which included hostile fire and Russian attack helicopters can be found in English. The other two in Spanish and all occurred under Chavez. The Colombia incident involved helicopters and Bronco aircraft strafing a Colombian settlement with their heavy machine guns. The Brazilian incident was not hostile and involved helicopters.
Before you tell me I'm full of shit, I would like to tell you that you are full of shit.
Octopussy
Kepler, just how strong of a magnet? Do you work for Seagate, Hitachi, Samsung or Maxtor? Just wondering... lol
Jose is also Cuban-American, Rupert Murdoch owns the WSJ now, US intel sources have a stake in showing Hugo sponsors terrorism ahead of the official Interprol report due May 15, so perhaps your praise for the 'months in the making' front-page positioning of the article is a bit over the top...but it's only an opinion
Whatever. I've worked with WSJ journos. I know how fucking hard they have to work to get an investigative piece into the front page...not because someone told me about it, but because I've seen them busting ass to confirm and reconfirm every claim they put into an A1 story. I know how intense the competition for those column inches is. And I know how obsessive, detail-oriented and thorough the fact-checking process is. The WSJ doesn't go out on a limb in front page investigations. Anybody who's worked in journalism knows that.
Quico, OT.
The new blog colors looks like...a lawyer wearing polished brown shoes, a rich bachelor's appartment and Martha Stewart's color suggestion for a husband's studio.
Boy it is straight!
Get the old blog back....
Sleep is for capitalists:
"No será con un computador como podrán horadar el prestigio, la honorabilidad del Jefe de Estado venezolano, que es democrático y se dedica 24 horas del día a trabajar por la paz, tranquilidad y felicidad de Venezuela y cooperar en nuestra región por los mismos valores de felicidad social, de paz, de soberanía y tranquilidad", finalizó.
http://abn.info.ve/go_news5.php?...lo=132314&
lee=1
Sorry, Bruni...I'm applying the Chaaz method of web design here...
Octopussy,
I mentioned that "en passant". The main point is that explosions like the ones that took place during the attack would not be likely to destroy the computers. Gweh mentioned already how some of the data from the shuttle computer survived and that was by far more extreme than many explosions caused by the military.
Holding a toy magnet won't do much to many of the latest PCs, but definitely very strong commercial magnets would do. Newer laptops are better protected, have better cases, but they are not immune. Of course nobody in the Colombian raid was interested in destroying the data.
Whatever? You aren't the only guy in the world who has worked with WSJ reporters, amigo.....It's obvious the US intel officials reached out to the WSJ. But whateve.
Interesting post and all but... the new brown poo is rather ugly
Look at this (Spanish):
http://www.notitarde.com/tangent.../
tangente6.html
Where will all those criminals hide when Chavismo gets swept away?
Carlos,
My "whatever" was more aimed at the casual racism of your invocation of de Córdoba's ethnicity. Gross.
Sure these guys have intelligence sources. That's what makes the article interesting!
Carlos, nothing is obvious except your ignorance and bias. I know the reporter in question and know how good he is and how hard he works. US intelligence does not reach out to reporters you fool.
let me clarify the last sentence, no US intelligence agency is reaching out to reporters on this story. Not even the State Dept.
It's the other way around, reporters reach out and it's always the State Dept where they start and State is usually very tight lipped. There is no collusion or coordination going on as you like to paint it. And what does Murdoch have to do with this?
Your rules of engagement at the top of this thread urges participants to 'mind your manners'....but I note your (and the other fella's) remarks re 'casual racism, ignorance, bias, fool" etc because you happen to disagree with my opinion. Way to go. Ignore your own rules. It says a lot about you that you rush to judgement so quickly with so little on which to base your judgement call. But it's your blog, so indulge yourself. It so happens that I know Jose personally since over 30 years ago. He's a good guy, and a good reporter. I never hinted otherwise. And it so happens the US intel community does reach out to reporters when want to influence the opinion matrix, and always have done so...I've worked with them too on and off over the years...So aside from your sinking into personal (and irrelevant) adjectives about my persona, what's your point?
Listen, Carlos, my House Rule is very explicit: don't post stuff you wouldn't say to people to their face. If you were sitting in a room with me and you randomly cast doubt on a person's credibility on the basis of his ethnicity, I would tell you to your face that that is racist, because that's what it is.
If you know Jose for a long time, and know he's a serious professional, it makes even less sense to casually pepper in a reference to his nationality in a context that could only be seen as questioning his credibility. The real question is what *your* point is in bringing something like that up in a context like this. As far as I'm concerned, it's very far from acceptable.
What we're dealing with are some very, very serious allegations. Extremely serious. We're talking about a guy who controls a resource flow worth something like $130 million dollars a DAY actively co-operating with some of the most violent criminals in Latin America. We now have deeply sourced, independently verified confirmation that those ties are real, routine and deep. If you have some substantive grounds for raising questions about the veracity of those claims, I beseech you to bring them forward. But if all you have are xenophobic digs at your own multi-decade friends as a basis for doubt...I call that very weak indeed.
Ok, you're right. Too little information can lead to erroneous conclusions. So let me try to explain quickly:
1. The US intel community does have good cause to push the opinion matrix in the case of Chavez's complicity with the FARC. Interpol's classified report, already in Uribe govt's hands, is very damning, my Narino palace sources tell me. The public report will also be bad, but the US govt right now isn't certain how much of the captured data ultimately will be made public by Interpol. The US can't publish the documents on its own without incurring questions re its motives (and whether the data is real), and the uribe govt is in the same boat. Ultimately, Interpol will decide what it posts on its own web site. But meanwhile some folks in the US want to get out some of their own conclusions before the Interpol report is issued on May 15 or later.
2. Jose is a very respected reporter and member of the Cuban-American community, where he is well liked by all of us who know him. He's known inside the intel community that deals with Chavez, Castro etc as a guy who can be trusted to handle sensitive informatioon appropriately
3. The Cuban-American community knows exactly where Chavez is coming from, and what his ultimate intentions are. It's unfortunate the US govt has been so weak-kneed in dealing with him. My guess is the intel sources who chatted with the WSJ are also close to that community.
4. When the US intel community wants to help shape an opinion matrix, they look for outlets which they consider appropriate for their specific purpose.
5. This does not, in any way, diminish Jose's professionalism, nor were my remarks intended as such.
6. I have worked as both a journalist, and inside the intel community, so I have some direct inside knowledge of how certain sectors of the US govt seek to influence the public opinion matrix.
7. Chavez has long been winning the opinion matrix battles in many quarters, though recently he is tripping himself up with increasing frequency.
8. Rupert Murdoch is on record as stating Chavez is a thug and a dictator. He is far more sympathetic to running a story like the one we are discussing than his predecessors would have been.
9. The additional intel described in the WSJ article could have been passed on to someone at the Miami Herald, Wash Post or even Wash Times, though not the NY Times because the Grey Lady's relations with Bush admin are very bad. However, the new intel staking out US views re the documents would not have been perceived as sufficiently credible if it had been leaked in Miami or Washington.
10. But putting some of the intel out in the public domain via the WSJ is a smart move, as shown by your own blog report re the issue. You can be certain that, regardless of the fine journalistic work done by the article's authors, a decision was made somewhere inside the Bush admin to start leaking the new intel to the WSJ. That's how the game is played in Washington.
I hope this clarifies the discussion sufficiently for your understanding. I neglected to take into account the fact you probably have never worked inside the US govt or intel community, and absent more information of an explanatory nature in my earlier postings I am guilty of nudging you towards some erroneous conclusions re my motives...
Quico,
at least Chávez sings rancheras and dances joropo after using his Chaaz method.
Too brown and too straight, Quico.
I am willing to bet one arepa reina pepeada that carlos is not a former spook, has no sources within the Colombian presidency, does not know Jose as he claims. He is a has been who thinks he's still inside the game but in this game you are behind the curve as shown by your own words.
did someone say spook?
Quico, "Carlos Aguilera" is probably Carlos Ruiz from the UK. You know the IP drill.
If it's him, I can tell you he has many pseudonyms. I am sure that by now, you know the type.
Saludos desde los sotanos de la CIA.
Carlos,
I can accept everything you write but still not see how any of it has the slightest bearing on whether the information contained in the article is true or false! Which is basically all I'm interested in here. Because I take it for granted that whenever you see ANYTHING printed in a newspaper, whether it's a classified ad or a multi page investigation, it's there because it's in somebody's interest to put it there. I just take that for granted.
The question isn't "did somebody want it there" (duh!) - the question is "is it true"?
The crazy is strong with Hugo Chávez:
http://www.eltiempo.com/politica...OR-
4158572.html
Pulpo: "Colombian gov. bypassed Int. law (as the US often does) and went after a target that was sure to net a product whose content would nullify the illegality of the means of appropriation. Anyone arguing against this point of view essentially argues for an "Ends justifies the means" theory"
OK, your principal argument is about the sanctity of borders, because of the sovereignty of them, right? Well, please be sure to compare that to the end of the action - protecting Colombian citizens.
Unless you think arbitrary, semi-imaginary lines are more important that human bystanders, you've got to at least recognize this as a gray area. There were bad results down the road whatever choice Uribe made, and just remember that the FARC led him to that crossroads.
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