"This is exactly the situation that has been created by those who will not question the heter of R' Soloveitchik to teach women gemara, as kvar horah zakein, but fail to provide any opportunity for women to use that learning for practical good or appreciate why they should want to do so. "
Good point--I don't know the answer.
As far as RYBS's view of learning gemera in general, I link, FYI, R Meiselman's discussion of it("He was afraid that people who viewed halachah as “random and arbitrary” would never be committed to proper halachic observance").
http://www.ou.org/pdf/ja/5766/
fa...ntMeiselman.pdf
"There is a smug, dismissive attitude toward those who raise these issues, a sense that their questions are indicative of a lesser commitment to avodas Hashem, their yiras shamayim is deficient, as sense that their motives must be tainted and impure."
I think people are not sufficently aware of the concept of psychological repression in connection with emunah(there are Torah sources for repression in other areas), that when one does not give enough value to a question, one makes it stronger. I don't know if this is your intent(intellectual honesty, sympathy and judging favorably are values in of themselves), but I know it also to be true in of itself.
Not to get off topic(although the general concept is relevant), but it is for this reason that I agreed with your critique of a Charedi newspaper's critique of the YCT Rabbi's /Jerusalem Report article in a post on your blog earlier this year(the quote in the JR was " As an Orthodox Jew, I have to struggle not just with G-d ’s presence in the world, but with His commandments as well").
I disagree with the way the JR article was written(and am not a supporter of the institution in question), but the way the newspaper critique was done, it could imply that one devalues a struggle, per se(I felt that at least the article could have been clearer on that point regarding an individual's struggle, even as criticizing the JR article).
There is a way to say, "lo zachisi l'havin devarav hakedoshim", and one can discuss whether or not the article met that standard, but one needs to be clear that one does not devalue a question. Part of the problem is that the forum where the critique was done, by nature of its sheltered readership, does not allow for a proper discussion without oversimplfying matters.
Back to this post, as far as your framing the issue as " respect[ing] these concerns as real and legitimate, and I don't know if we have come that far yet", it’s a good point. In the Charedi world(where its less of an issue), the answer might be giving women the opportunity to be proficient(or further expanding upon opportunities) in Maharal or Tanach(which even men are not !), but in the MO world, it's a different situation(and the example you mentioned of gender-specific halachos is also obviously different question than abstract Torah).
The historical context of feminism since the 60's as being anti-Torah certainly colors the whole issue.
We can have struggles with the morality of many halachos and they are usually seen as legit only because there is no bagage.
OTOH, one could frame even those struggles within the historical context of the humanistic movement. OTOH, those struggles find stronger and more explicit echoes in pre-enlightenment classic Jewish thought as well.
We don't find many of the sympathies to women's lack of equality (in religious expression) in the classic lit. as much as we find about general moral issues.
Your marei makom from women's s'micha took me totally by surprise. I never heard it quoted before and it's the only one I've ever seen in that direction.
Yasher Koach for a hard-hitting piece.
Ironically, study for the sake of the understanding itself, study to enhance one's personal mitzvah practice, and study to achieve deveikus to HaShem are all regarded as very good things in other contexts.
The lack of authorization to apply the learned concepts as a decisor does not negate or diminish the value of study for the above purposes.
However, one still has to ask whether high level Gemara study is the best possible use of a Jewish woman's time. A subjective answer to this question is out of order if the normative halacha itself answers it conclusively.
As for Rav Soloveitchik ZT"L's heter, if it now has been found to lead women to feel at some point that their learning has been for naught, that is a good argument for withdrawing the heter. It's not a good argument for empowering women as rabbi-equivalents.
Well, women paskening shailos is not an issue that is completely lacking in pre-20th century Rabbinic literature.
Many of the medieval Commentators on Nach say that is how we under stand the phrase (refering to Devorah) "v'he shofetah et yisrael b'et hahee." And off the top of my head Sefer Hachinuch among the Rishonim and Pitchei T'shuvah among the Acharonim both seem to take it for granted that a sufficiently learned woman can pasken shailos.
"Ironically, study for the sake of the understanding itself... and study to achieve deveikus to HaShem are all regarded as very good things in other contexts." yes they are but they are not reasons for women to study gemorah most people who defend woman learning do it bec of only one of the reasons you gave "study to enhance one's personal mitzvah practice."
DD, I was attacking the premise that we had to stand the halacha on its head because some women had studied and then found themselves unable to be poskim, as if that could have been their assumed goal.
>>>most people who defend woman learning do it bec of only one of the reasons you gave "study to enhance one's personal mitzvah practice."
Just for the record, I do not believe this was RYBS reasoning; also the stated reason would limit learning to pracitcal halacha as a hechsher mitzvah, but not an end in itself (to use the chiluk of the Bais haLevi in the hakdamah). Acc to the stated reason, a gemara iyun shiur would be precluded - a gemara iyun shiur is exactly what RYBS thought was necessary.
Serving as a rabbi or posek is just one of many ways a women could spread torah within the community. How many even shules offer a high-level gemara shiur given by a woman to other women? A high-level text based halacha shiur? The magic question: is it because there are no women capable of delivering such shiurim, or because the women who can would not be accepted as authentic torah role models?
An excellent post.
"Thus, it troubles them not that a women who might have spent years studying hilchos niddah (just as an example) and be fully proficient in its intricacies is expected to ask her shaylos to her local Rabbi who may be less knowledgeable than herself."
I don't understand what you are talking about. A woman who can answer her own shaylas doesn't have to ask a rav, and if she does, she shouldn't go to someone less knowledgeable than herself! I think doing so if he tells her other than what she thinks and she genuinely knows more than him may well be forbidden. The question is paskening for other people.
"How many even shules offer a high-level gemara shiur given by a woman to other women? A high-level text based halacha shiur? The magic question: is it because there are no women capable of delivering such shiurim, or because the women who can would not be accepted as authentic torah role models?"
I think it's because there are very few women capable as well as not that much demand. I do not think that there would be much trouble with acceptance. The shuls do have shiurim by rebbetzins. I think the rhetoric is out of line with the reality. Look, the average guy puts in hours straight through high school, then goes to beis midrash for years, then kollel. The girls may have limited exposure in high school. Then they go to a program that lasts at most a few years. Most of them want a college and professional education too. They marry. Many have careers. The few that settle in limudei kodesh may catch up if they are determined, but this has not been going on long enough for that to really have happened except perhaps in the case of rare individuals. Generally speaking, the women are also out of the mainstream and may have uneven knowledge base. With time, and if they start the women's intensive education at a younger age, they may come closer to parity, but we are not near that on any kind of large scale level.
I understand that the argument is that if there were more official jobs, more women would devote themselves to limudei kodesh, but whether or not that's true, your question is about the current circumstances.
It is true that there are semicha mills, and there are more women capable of doing that sort of curriculum - but there are few who have actually done even that much.
I think that in addition to producing more learned women before there is so much talk of poskim, there also needs to be more emphasis on torah lishma. Part of the problem is that the analysis is modeled on professional careers - three years law school, five year PhD program etc and think, hey, three years in gemara class, why not a rabbi? This is not out of line with the demands of learning; it is also the wrong message about talmud torah, including for women.
I dont think it occured to RYBS that women should learn with the aim of taking on this or that role or job; he thought learning was an end in itself. If enough women do that, it will take on its own momentum. There are sufficient nonproblematic things women can do.
The one thing that is IMO a problem is that so many of the programs are more leftist; this discourages women who are more right wing. When the women's advanced learning is going on in predominantly left wing institutions, the agendas of learning get conflated with other agendas that does not interest women on the right wing, and the learning itself can take a nontraditional approach.
>>>If enough women do that, it will take on its own momentum.
And my argument is that over the years it has taken on momentum, which is why we see programs like those at Stern, those flourishing in Eretz Yisrael, and others. The question is whether we should take a step forward and expand the role of the bnos torah which have emerged from these programs and give them positions of prominance as mechanchos in our communities so other women emulate them and build on what has been done, or should we force them to hide their achievments out of public view, should we question their motives and aspirations, should we curtail their role?
How many women consider torah lishma and avodah, something they personally should aspire to? Unless you hold up role models who actually emody these roles, how do you transmit those values?
>>>The one thing that is IMO a problem is that so many of the programs are more leftist; this discourages women who are more right wing.
I could not agree more, but I (and I don't know if you agree) do not think that will ever change given the direction of the RW world.
If a girl truly desires to learn Torha lishma for all the right reasons, should she quash that desire because her social circles frown upon it, or should she opt for a place like Drisha and be boreir the ochel m'toch hapsoles?
Chaim B said,
"If a girl truly desires to learn Torah lishma for all the right reasons..."
Are we just to assume that this is an appropriate study mode/motivation for women? Objectively, there may be no right reasons unless we take "lishma" to mean "for practical application".
>>>Are we just to assume that this is an appropriate study mode/motivation for women
Why should we not?
"And my argument is that over the years it has taken on momentum, which is why we see programs like those at Stern, those flourishing in Eretz Yisrael, and others. The question is whether we should take a step forward and expand the role of the bnos torah which have emerged from these programs and give them positions of prominance as mechanchos in our communities so other women emulate them and build on what has been done, or should we force them to hide their achievments out of public view, should we question their motives and aspirations, should we curtail their role?"
Who said anything about hiding? I think the program in Stern is two years. Of course there are women who graduate and continue to learn, teaching and etc, but since many of these women enter these programs relatively new to learning gemara, and also go for advanced secular education, your question - where are all the women teaching high level shiurim in shuls - answers itself The longer this goes on, the more women there will be, but right now my perception is that it has not yet taken on enough momentum to justify the high flown rhetoric about women poskim. I'm not saying there are no women capable of it, but there are no armies of women waiting to staff shuls who are held back because there aren't positions for women. Capable women dont have to hide. This rhetoric and your analysis presumes that these women exist and are being held back. I don't think this is the case. I say this as a haredi women who has no problem with women learning as I think is generally evident from my comments. Also, on this very blog, one of your co-bloggers once told me that he couldn't continue a discussion in learning w/ me, where I was arguing on something he wrote, b/c he was concerned with teaching me torah. Still, I don't think this sort of thing is really holding back advance This is my perception.
Here are two pieces of evidence. Hirhurim recently linked to an online yeshiva run by brovender's. The classes offered for women included only rudimentary gemara, for men more advanced. So apparently they think that many MO women dont have the basic skills. I don't know. Maybe if this program continues they will have more advanced classes for women. The second is today's post on hirhurim, where we see a bekius program aimed at both boys and girls in high school.
http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/200...ool-is-
for.html
http://www.yucommentator.com/hom...6e-
177afa0cdd65
I think these girls are starting off with more knowledge base than most of the adult women today began with.. If *this* continues, there will be the sort of momentum I was talking about. These women will not be worse off than the average MO guy.
The further right you move, the more intense the men's education, and the greater the gap to bridge.
"I could not agree more, but I (and
"I could not agree more, but I (and I don't know if you agree) do not think that will ever change given the direction of the RW world."
What is holding back RW MO women from learning? I don't see RW MO would oppose learning programs. I think there is not enough demand. Do you see evidence of such opposition.
"If a girl truly desires to learn Torha lishma for all the right reasons, should she quash that desire because her social circles frown upon it, or should she opt for a place like Drisha and be boreir the ochel m'toch hapsoles?"
IMO it depends on the person. The alternative doesn't have to be quash desire to learn! For one thing, she could set up the RW MO program! Nothing much is preventing women even in the haredi world from setting up chavrusas and so on. It requires determination, not necessarily social engineering.
"Are we just to assume that this is an appropriate study mode/motivation for women? Objectively, there may be no right reasons unless we take "lishma" to mean "for practical application"."
I think you are making a common mistake. There is nothing in halacha barring a woman from learning on her own. The issue is men - her father, possibly other men - teaching her. Probably not even an issue for other women to teach her, which is much of what is going on. No woman has to justify desire to learn; one may have to justify teaching her.
Two online articles on the topic of Women and Torah study:
http://www.torahweb.org/torah/
sp...e_JA_women.html
http://www.aishkodesh.org/Articl...=R&left=&
pgno=1
> Doesn’t the whole concept of Torah u’Mada according to any of its definitions direct us to incorporate the positive values of the external world into our framework of Torah life?
Absolutely. The problem arises when people take the values of the external world, irrespective of their being positive or negative and demand that their Torah life make them the priority, rather than an adjunct to mitzvos observance.
For more see:
http://garnelironheart.blogspot....-
orthodoxy.html
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