i thought about this more since our interaction in the comments section before and now maybe think simon is just confused with the phrase "la raza" that is often associated with mexicans or mexican-americans. la raza is literally a translation of "the race", but generally refers to the mestizo ancestry of most mexicans. see good ol' wikipedia for a more "in-depth analysis" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_raza
Minerva Oblongata | 05.23.06 - 4:35 pm | #

To make a list:

1. You characterize my comments as becoming "increasingly nasty," and when I look over them, the worst thing I do is call you a "silly man," but coming from the person who originally started this argument by using the words "crap" and "turd" to describe my rhetoric, this makes you (at best) a hypocrite.

2. You still haven't told me what race Cella belongs to. She's obviously can't be called "Asian" (even though "Asian" IS a common racial term) because, by your logic, she's not from Asia.

3. As I indicated before, many countries are very homogenous in breeding, and THAT'S why it's often ok to refer to their ancestoral national lines when referring to race.

4. The Wikipedia article you linked to does nothing but hurt your argument. Not only does it say that there's not a clear-cut definition of race (making your claims at racial definitions irrelevant), but if you scroll down, it actually has a chart of ethnic groups, AND GUESS WHAT, MEXICANS ARE ON THAT LIST!!!!

5. Even outside of history, if you look at any book in the literary canon you'll see American citizens characterized as Mexican. Let's take, say, Jack Kerouc's beat novel, On The Road, for instance. In it, the main character Sal meets a woman at a train station that he falls in love with.

From Chapter 12:

"I had bought my ticket and was waiting for the LA bus when all of a sudden I saw the cutest little Mexican girl in slacks come cutting across my sight."

So is this girl he labels as "Mexican" actually from Mexico? No, we find out on the next page that she's from a farming town in California.

HOLY SHIT BATMAN!!! You better call up the literary estate of the now-deceased Jack Kerouac, the most famous of the beat generation writers, author of an American 20th century classic novel, and tell them that their client was a FRAUD!!

6. Here's an article that uses the term "Mexican-American" as a racial term.

The online travel guide to Mexico refers to a "mexican race"

here's the abstract to an essay that refers to a "Mexican race." You can access the full article if you subscribe to Project Muse or Academic Search Premier.

7. In the last field of comments, you left a humorous little nugget:

"BTW, your comment about the English language having been "invented"... You're not serious, right? Are you picturing a bunch of racially English guys sitting around a table and inventing a language? This sounds like something Bill O'Reilly would idiotically claim. Please say you're not being serious, or else there's really no hope for you."

I really stared at this and literally guffawed. If you couldn't tell that my comment about the "invention" of the English language was one of sarcasm...well, I'm not going to finish this sentence, because it'll just get "increasingly nasty" as you so deftly put it.

8. Hmm, I'm thinking the ACLU will be a good place for you to send that check to about right now.
Simon Owens | Homepage | 05.23.06 - 4:44 pm | #

Isn't "mexican" an ethnicity? and a nationality? I think there's more to being Irish than being from Ireland (or having great great grandparents from Ireland). Of course, Irish isn't a race. But, it might be an ethnicity. I don't know if this race vs. ethnicity matters in this dispute or not.
cicero | Homepage | 05.23.06 - 5:26 pm | #

EXACTLY MY POINT, Cicero. As I indicated with my sarcastic "invention of English" comment, words often can have more that one meaning.

The word "ethnicity" is often synonymous with race:

n : an ethnic quality or affiliation resulting from racial or cultural ties; "ethnicity has a strong influence on community status relations"
Simon Owens | Homepage | 05.23.06 - 5:54 pm | #

Oh, and that last article abstract I linked to is from a German professor. A scholarly article that uses both the terms "Mexican-American" and "Mexican race."

Using Academic Search Premier and Project Muse (I have membership accounts to both), I can find another dozen or so articles that refer to Mexicans in America as a race.
Simon Owens | Homepage | 05.23.06 - 6:40 pm | #

no way that i can accept that a person's nationality, country of origin, or "ethnicity" is the same as race. i don't particularly think race should matter much, but if the term is to be used, i think it needs to be better clarified and applied appropriately. not that the feds should be deemed as experts in any matters, but since they are the most obsessed with tracking race, this is how they view ethnicity and race as it relates to hispanics (the group i most identify with given my parents are from mexico and bolivia, though i am american).

from census.gov
How Should Hispanics or Latinos Answer the Race Question?

People of Hispanic origin may be of any race and should answer the question on race by marking one or more race categories shown on the questionnaire, including White, Black or African American, American Indian or Alaska Native, Asian, Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander, and Some Other Race. Hispanics are asked to indicate their origin in the question on Hispanic origin, not in the question on race, because in the federal statistical system ethnic origin is considered to be a separate concept from race.

it seems pretty simply put here. but i am curious now about what others think about this question.
Minerva Oblongata | Homepage | 05.23.06 - 10:48 pm | #

Whether or not you personally think "ethnicity" has nothing to do with race is irrelevant. In just about every dictionary you encounter, "race" is a key factor in ethnicity. Either way, I've provided more than enough evidence above to show that the term "Mexican" can be a racial label that is used quite often in the United States.
Simon Owens | Homepage | 05.24.06 - 1:25 am | #

didn't say that ethnicity and race aren't related, just that they are not the same thing.

as you said:
"race" is a key factor in ethnicity.

a key factor perhaps, but not its equivalent.
Minerva Oblongata | 05.24.06 - 9:14 am | #

I think the only way to settle this dispute is with a Italian-American Mexican standoff.
cicero | Homepage | 05.24.06 - 10:12 am | #

Simon Pwens got PWNED! If you were to say that X=Y, and I challenged that assertion, and instead argued that X=Z...then you countered with, "well, Y is a major factor in determining Z", then that would still not mean that X=Y is a correct statement. It's funny to watch this dude backpedal and try to save face. Bwah ha ha!
Evan | 05.24.06 - 11:48 am | #

Smells like tripe tacos to me.
Davey Allday | 05.24.06 - 3:40 pm | #

Being 39 my views might be dated but my grammer school textbook said there are three races: Caucasian, African and Asian. Not that any of that matters, and it is increasingly irrelevant, but Mexicans are as Caucasian as the Irish, Italians, Germans and English who first populated this country. But, more importantly, what is the point? All races, ethnicities and nationalities have equal claim to this country and have contributed to our success. The fact that we can welcome people of all cultural backgrounds and give them the freedom to succeed is what has enabled the US to excel.
Leonardo | Homepage | 05.24.06 - 9:22 pm | #

Back-pedal and save face? Aside from the whole "ethnicity" debate, I provided several examples and even an academic article (which was the only source that was needed in order for me to win, by HIS own rules) that made reference to a Mexican race.

And Ethnicity is so tied into race, that the expert on race who wrote that Wikipedia article felt it important enough to spend several sections talking about Ethnicity IN AN ARTICLE ABOUT RACE! And this was an article that HE linked to and not me.

And either way, even if they weren't tied together that much, his original argument is still wrong, because if he admits that the term "Mexican" can describe an ethnic group, then that ethnic group can exist within the United States, and a person who self-identifies as being within the Mexican "ethnicity" could legally vote.

But it's not like they're not closely tied, because if you look in any thesaurus, a synonym for "race" is "ethnic group." And if you look at the definition of "ethnicity" it's a group that results from racial ties. So in order to be in an ethnic group, very often YOU HAVE TO BE IN THE SAME RACE. So yes, Evan, if you want to say X=Y, and you look in any thesaurus (go on, go pull one out right now, you'll see for yourself) and see that a synonym for X is Y, then HOLY SHIT, maybe that means X is equal to Y after all!

Still waiting on you tell me what race Cella belongs to without contradicting your own argument.

You owe the ACLU 100 dollars and me an apology. You've seen the academic source I posted and it's been up for more than 24 hours, and you've put up new posts since then so I know you've checked back at this blog.
Simon Owens | Homepage | 05.25.06 - 4:39 am | #

I'm getting to it -- waiting for a reply to an email. BTW, it's good to see you're up (presumably not readying yourself to pick mushrooms) at 4:30 a.m.
Baylen | Homepage | 05.25.06 - 8:43 am | #

Ok, have fun waiting on that email! And while you're waiting, how about you take a trip down to the ol' Census Bureau for the United States goverment, and check out their list of races. Guess what's on the list? C'mon, I'll give you one guess!
Simon Owens | Homepage | 05.25.06 - 2:00 pm | #

simon,
yes the census bureau lists what they have identified as categories of races OR ethnicities - again not to say that they are the same. it is simply a list including both.

you didn't address the previous census.gov citation about ethnicity being a separate concept than race...

not to get too personal as this should be a discourse on ideas, but it looks like it has strayed far from that now so what the hell...simon, you sound on the verge of deranged.
Minerva Oblongata | 05.25.06 - 4:05 pm | #

1. It's your tone. You become more aggressive as your incompetence becomes more apparent.

2. I've never met her and, again, I refer you to my previous comments that if she was born in one of the Koreas, she's Korean. If she was born here, she's American. Without knowing her I'd presume her to be Asian, though if she was born in Mexico City but grew up in Seoul then she’d be Mexican in my book.

3. That's usually not true, especially in this age of globalization, increased movement across borders, etc. If national identity works as an indentifier everywhere (except the U.S., as you noted earlier, because of our diversity), then the number of races in the world is simply the number of countries in world, give or take a few more "diverse" nations.

4. Oh, you mean the triangular graphic that shows that people who self-identify as part of a Mexican "ethnic group" are part of an "admixture" -- which is not a race but means "the mixing of genetically differentiated groups" -- that shares characteristics with Native Americans? So, in other words, not at all a race.

5. I like Jack Kerouac, but his choice of words bears not at all on this discussion. Kerouac's words aren't any more relevant than this line from the Red Hot Chili Peppers‘ “Sexy Mexican Maid”:

So serene she gives to me my toast and marmalade
What more can I say she's my sexy Mexican maid

In both cases we’re discussing a work of fiction. Fiction – however good – is by its very definition not real.

6. The first article… which incidentally opens with a quote, “Distinctions between citizens solely because of their ancestry are by their very nature odious to a free people whose institutions are founded upon the doctrine of equality.” – talks about how various parties have at times attempted to claim the existence of a Mexican race or the lack thereof. Irrelevant, and certainly no proof of your point.

The second link… isn’t an authoritative site. As numerous other commenters here (yours truly included) have noted, “La Raza” does not refer to a “race” in any genetic sense – the only sense that matters – but to the shared “mestizo” (or mixed) heritage of many Mexicans. According to the Mexican government’s website:

In 1918, philosopher Antonio Caso took October 12th as an opportunity to praise the "Mexican mestizo race", La Raza, the rich mixture of Spanish and indigenous cultures which characterizes us.

And what is “mestizo”?

From Wikipedia’s Mexico page (emphasis added)…

Mexico is a racially and ethnically diverse country, its main ethnic groups are:
75% Mestizo (mixed white and Indigenous people)
13% Amerindian
11% European (Spanish, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, British, Swedish, Irish, and white American).
1% Afro-Mexicans, Middle Easterners, and East Asians.

Swedish? Well that's inconvenient to your argument, now isn't it? White Americans? WTF are they doing down there?

Finally, the third link you provide… goes to an article that takes a historical look at “discourse” (the way in which something is discussed) on Mexicans (and by Mexicans I mean people born in Mexico) in the U.S. You mistake the author’s citation of an early conception of Mexicans as a race in the title of the document (“From the ‘Menace of the Mexican Race’ to…”) for the existence of said race.

I could picture a comparable anthropological look at psychiatry’s push and pull over mental illness titled, From ‘The Myth of Mental Illness’ to ‘Talking to Prozac’: Continuity and Change in the Discourse on Mental Illness during the 20th Century. This is the (hypothetical) title of an academic paper, and one neither endorses the latter nor the former view of mental illness as correct. It just tells the story of discourse, which is often, sadly, as we've seen here, not grounded in facts.

7. Good. You were otherwise humorless, so I just took your comments at face value.

8. The ACLU is OK. IJ is better. Regardless, you haven’t earned a dime. I invite you to keep trying.

In response to your other posts…

…race and ethnicity are not the same thing. One bears on the other, but as Minerva pointed out and Evan illustrated scientifically, they’re not the same no matter how (or how much) you try to parse it.

…I don’t have access to the services you do (Project Muse and Academic Search Premier), but I’d welcome you to send 2-3 of the ones that you think best make your case to me at tothepeople-AT-gmail.com.

…It was the German professor I emailed, and the German professor who has still not responded to me.

…Cicero is an idiot.

…You did indeed provide a not-quite-written-in-English abstract from Hensel’s paper, but it didn’t in any way support your point. Try again.

…As for the Census.gov link (and others there), Mexican is indeed listed under “Hispanic or Latino” – as is South American and Argentinian – just as Cree and Choctaw are listed under “American Indian and Alaska Native tribes”. These are parts that, generalized, make up a whole. (i.e., Mexican is part of “Hispanic or Latino”.) But these parts aren’t races. Unless, again, you think that each country in Latin America is made up of one unique race per country.

That's not the case, of course, just as it's not the case in Mexico, a heterogeneous country where -- like in the U.S. and other diverse countries -- people of some racial backgrounds pick on people of other racial backgrounds. "Other" racial backgrounds? That (along with the mountain of evidence above) means there's more than one race of people in Mexico. So sorry, man, but there's no "Mexican race".

In conclusion: you were and remain wrong in claiming the existence of a “Mexican race”. I welcome your continued efforts, and my offer still stands.
Baylen | Homepage | 05.25.06 - 5:21 pm | #

Yep, you did exactly as I predicted you would.

Race and ethnicity are synonyms. You're convinced that race is almost completely bent on genetic skin color. One of the definitions of race is:

"A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race."

When the census website used "race or ethnic group," they did so because each word is used interchangeably, in every dictionary you look, their definitions are almost exactly the same, and any thesaurus you look in, they're listed as synonyms.

You're the absolute epitome of why I have no respect for 99% of political pundits out there. Sometimes you're correct and sometimes you're not correct, but since there is no real striving for truth, everything becomes white noise. I recommend Harry G. Frankfurt's famous book _On Bullshit_. He summarizes your character pretty well.

You're never going to pay up that $100 even if I were to find 500 scholarly articles, and 100,000 legal citizens who self-identify as Mexican. This entire debate you've dodged several questions, made several claims without backing them up, and engaged in silly semantics games like the fact that the census site put "or ethnic groups" next to "race."

I'll tell you what, since you're never going to pay that $100, why don't you put it towards some other worthy causes? Here I'll list a few:

1.Buy a dictionary. So when you get into pesky semantics games, you can actually look up words so that you actually know what you're talking about.

2. Put the rest of it towards cultural studies classes at your local university (classes I've actually taken, with Professors with PhDs on these subjects, but shit what do they know) and a cultural anthropology class (another class I've taken) or two.

Have fun on these intellectual endeavors, and I wish you the best of luck!
Simon Owens | Homepage | 05.26.06 - 3:05 pm | #

German race?
Baylen | Homepage | 05.26.06 - 3:46 pm | #

while being "ignorant" and "angry" are not synonymous, there does seem to be a strong correlation between a high level of ignorance in a person and how angry that person gets when their short-sided views are challenged. it is really too bad.
Minerva Oblongata | Homepage | 05.27.06 - 8:46 am | #