you know i love it when you talk dirty to me
I shall be interested to follow the comment trail on this one.
Damn good post Sex.
You & I, totally alike. It just fukkin kills me to see others preaching down other's throats about what THEY think should be the road traveled. & it's certainly going to be likewise when somebody else is going to try preach to me about why I shouldn't believe in what I believe. Hardly ever occurs thankfully, but it does break my heart when it does.
I dunno... I guess I just think of what I'd want to hear from somebody if they've believed differently than me & project that upon those around me, hoping that they'll remember that when they have differences I don't neccessarily see eye to eye on.
I think when it comes down to it, honestly? Is that nobody wants to sound like a nutty buddy for what they believe in.
Gah...I could talk about this shit with you all day. We totally need to have SexScenes at Starbux lady. Coffee's on me.
Yes!! We need an actual "Sex Scenes" at Starbucks day. I should do my launch there for the novella. It's got Sex. I don't think it has coffee, though. But we could supply that...
Aerin, the discussion seems to be started on Facebook. I'd love your thoughts though!
Hi SS-Starbucks, thanks for the comment on Erica's blog- yes we are close- I am actually in the country between Telluride and Durango- but was born in Boulder and grew up in Loveland-
need to go back on occasion and just breath in culture- miss Pearl Street mall and Flat Irons-
and yes I agree with you- God by definition does not need anyone to defend him!
Please don't hate me, Bets. I really like you!
I believe in belief. If I choose to believe in God today, or the Goddess tomorrow, it's irrelevant: the power is not God's, but in my belief of him.
I don't mind the argument against the existence of God, really. Most atheists I know have been highly ethical, and have studied both ethics and philosophy quite a bit. (In fact, I've heard one preacher talk about how much he enjoyed talking with his atheist friends because of that.) I haven't read what you're referring to, but denying God's existence is not the equivalent of denying all the good ethics taught in his stories.
What people are doing in the name of religion now terrifies me. Instead of learning the lessons from 9/11, there is a faction of Christianity in America that has become just as fanatic and judgmental, and has, seemingly, a great deal of political power. Oooh... Bush said something really scary to do with this, but I can't remember or find it.
If it were up to me, I'd call for a little less religion and a lot more ethics. I'd call for classes in empathy and understanding.
I've worked in many Christian churches: UCC, Scientist (what's that called again?), Episcopal, Unitarian, Salvation Army, Catholic, Methodist... I think that's it, LOL. I still go to mass now and then. In general, all the congregants have been loving, non-judgmental people. In general, the sermons have been lessons in what you mention.
Now that I don't go, though... the impression Christianity gives the world is a terrible one. It may not be the correct one, but until the Christians who believe "judge not, lest ye be judged" speak louder than the "right," I will hope for a little less religion and a little more ethics.
I don't think religious fanaticism is anything new. In fact, we're not doing fanaticism nearly as well as they did it in the Middle Ages!
I'm jealous. Most Christian churches I've been too have been very judgmental. Maybe it was me, but that was the feeling I constantly got, to the point of giving it up for years.
If I were to evangelize, and I'm not cuz I don't do that shit, it'd be for MY church, St Johns Episcopal in Boulder, Colorado but not the wider Anglican Communion. I'm ashamed at how some of them can't accept gays or women clergy.
I find it odd that this very moderate (at least I tried!) post is generating so much discussion. I like it though! More thinking!
And frankly, the impression Islam gives the world is just as terrible. Making women wrap their bodies and heads as if they should be ashamed? Fuck that. It's as stupid as waving your arms around when you sing or healing at the Revival tent or praying skyclad or kneeling and crossing myself or any number of weird stuff people do.
But yanno, lots of those folks find peace and happiness in that weird stuff, so who am I to say? Maybe the point is actually finding the peace and happiness, not how you do it.
Oh, and my main issue is with the word "delusion." What if I call atheists delusional for NOT believing? Just as stupid and wrong and unfriendly.
Hi Julia! You stopped by on an...odd day around here, to say the least. Usually I'm prattling on about my book or cleaning house or something.
That's a great point. Women clergy... was that the big debate about ten years ago? Oddly, I worked at an Episcopal church twice. Each time, the priest left to become that pre-Vatican II Catholic. You know, the Latin mass Catholics?
I used to joke that Episcopalians were more Catholic than Catholics. 
I think it's true, too, Natasha, though Henry 8 would roll in his grave to hear me say it!
Natasha, it's called Church of Christ, Scientist. My father's family was Christian Scientist. He converted to Catholicism after he married my mother.
The issue of women priests in Catholicism is just heating up. There are "rogue" bishops who ordain women.
Someday we'll have married priests, male and female, and the world will be better.
I went to a Jesuit college and used to love talking to Jesuits about religion, but the Catholic leaders have gotten so freakin' weird the last few years I can't stand them. Seriously, they need to be replaced with women.
Awesome post, SS@S,
I haven't gone looking for the book you mentioned yet, but I think I get the gist of it.
There was a blogger a few years ago who was basically hate mongering against any and all religions and religious people... to the point that he stated that anyone who raised their child with a religious belief was guilty of child abuse!!!
And when people stopped bothering with his blog, because it was some kernals of other people's thoughts on the subject with his own little hate mongering added in, well then he started blowing up the comments sections of other bloggers who touched at all on faith or who he knew subscribed to a faith. It's one of the reasons I purposely stay away from religious posts on my blogger account. I started at a blog community and regularly did little blogs on different aspects of catholicism and had a side blog largely about paganism and kitchen witchery.
The thing was, most of the bloggers there were very respectful, and there was a great exchange of ideas and differences of faith without all the judgment... but then one loud and determined person can turn the entire conversation to the point where you just don't want to deal with it anymore.
Personally, I like the open discussion. And I like learning about other people's faith, ideals, philosophies. I just don't like the judgment aimed at people, which is why, I think, most people shy away from the discussion in the first place.
I loathe proselytization too, Bets. But if I could believe in the Jesus thing I'd be Episcopalian or Catholic because I adore all the ritual and the history, too!
I had to laugh about your take on Wiccan/Pagan divergences. You scratch every pagan and you seem to get a different 'textbook'!
(How do you punctuate using a quote and an exclamation point, anyhow? Both ways look stupid!)
Wyrdd,
If the quotes are a in place of italics, I put the exclamation point on the outside. If it's dialogue or representing actual speech or a quote, I put it inside (meaning the actual quote is an exclamation.)
I thought you'd like that bit about Wicca. It's causing me no end of fits with the book... But then, so is Christianity.
Merry, I'm very fortunate to have really smart, cool people commenting. Everyone's been very respectful. Are we FB friends? There's a much longer discussion over there on my wall.
Thanks for chiming in, Beth. I agree that Catholicism is digging in its collective heels. It's sad, really, when there's much that could be accomplished by some of these faithful, wonderful people. I know people in the catholic church who are so hurt by the church, but they don't feel they have anywhere else to go. My feeling is that the Episcopalians have it right. But that's just me.
Hey SS@S,
I actually caught the discussion first on facebook, but when I followed the link here I just commented here. And yeah, I think the discussion was really intelligent and civilized there, too.
Sometimes even the simple differences of dogma can wind up getting people's dander up - for me, it's only when it becomes insulting - to me or anyone else. You don't learn anything by doing that and I have a tendency to dislike bullies in any forum, but especially with regard to faith.
Great discussion you've opened up here.
Well, what's funny is why he sent me the title of the book, which has very little to do with whether there's a god or not, but everything to do with my previous post. Jokes on me, but I'm glad everyone had fun.
Well . . . late to this party, but . . .
I have to argue with you on one point. You say "some" Christians believe in Creationism and that is like taking that small portion of Islam, etc.
Betsy, MILLIONS and MILLIONS do. So "some" of a massive religion? Some is too vague. It's MILLIONS who believe verbatim--and then, rather than this Jesus you speak of, who was a compassionate man, a social worker of the time, a healer . . . they USE this book, this written word, for hate mongering. Not "some." Huge numbers. BAsed on a book THEY say is divine. Pouring into California to hate monger for Prop 8 and so on. They will take a single verse in Leviticus and use it to HATE. And yet . . . most will eat pork--which is in the Bible as a no-no.
Do I think the world is full of good Christians in big numbers who do good works and are compassionate? Yes. Do I believe that in a lot of ways, they see the truth? Yes. But pinning beliefs on a book written by men through the ages and using it as a weapon of hatred is a friggin' hobby/pasttime in this country.
I hold ALL religions accountable for hate. If there is a God, he or she is disgusted with the human race.
Well, as an atheist who's had to put up with all sorts of grief from believers over the years, let me turn the other cheek here and just say that I don't believe that religion is per se the root of all evil. Evil can latch onto anything -- religion, fascism, communism, whatever.
I have no interest in trying to evangelize for atheism. The only thing I object to, strenuously, is hearing from so-called "Christians" how I'm un-American or a bad person or something just because I deny the existence of a divine power.
And as the saying goes, everyone's an atheist when it comes to every religion but their own...
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