Planck's Constant - Fighting World Terror
Excellent write-up and observations as always Bernie. :)
You've really outdone yourself this time Bernie! You are either a bald-faced liar or seriously deluded.
"Israel fought the kindest, gentlest war in history and it still got a smack down"
Ever heard of the Jenin Refugee Camp? Well here is what Human Rights Watch had to say about the incident where at least 38 Palestinian civilians were killed by the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) in 2002:
"Many of the civilian deaths amounted to unlawful or willful killings by the IDF. Many others could have been avoided if the IDF had taken proper precautions to protect civilian life during its military operation, as required by international law...Israeli forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, some amonting to prima facie war crimes"
Amnesty International also denounced the IDF for using Palestinian civilians as "human shields".
This is just one example of Israeli atrocities towards the Palestinians. I will continue to supply you and your readers with more until you stop lying and stop denying the truth.
The is no such thing as a 'kind, gentle war". That is the most ridiculous assertion I have ever heard.
It is time you came off your high horse. You are 62 year old. Time is running out for you to do something useful with your life instead of just fanning the flames of ignorance and hatred.
I suggest you get onto it.
First of all the war was in 2006 Jasmine. Not 2002.
Secondly, I don't know what you are talking about. Find another war that was fought with as much humanitarian restraint as Lebanon, dropping pamphlets and refusing to fire on civilians who were harboring terrorists.
Jasmine, I was speaking about the War in Lebanon, but let's examine Jenin: The entire Israeli army fights a pitched battle with armed militants and 38 Palestinians are dead and you call that an atrocity? WTF?
23 Israeli soldiers lost their lives and only 38 Palestinians dead? Are you nuts? You are going to call a battle where Israel loses 23 soldiers and only a few handful more Palestinians die, you call that an atrocity?
By the way, if the 38 were innocent civilians minding their own business, how did 23 Israelis get killed? With plowshares and and pruning hooks?
Did you know that some families of Israeli soldiers killed sued the Israeli government because the Israeli army was too careful not to harm Palestinians?
Meanwhile 1 single suicide belted moron Muslim kills 38 children on a bus and you missed that as an atrocity. You need to look up atrocity in the dictionary.
1 single
I'm not so sure Jasmine is really a shebot. But if it is then it would be beaten with a whip for talking to men if it were living among those she represents.
On another note, I watched a documentary on HBO called "To Die in Jerusalem". It was about a Jewish mother who wanted to speak to the mother of the suicide bomber that killed her daughter. They both lost daughters about the same age. The girls were only about 19 or 20. Anyway....it was a big waste of time for the grieving Jewish mother. She missed her child and best friend so much it was hard to go on each day without her. The other mother missed her daughter but was glad she blew herself up and took some jews with her. My point is this. These people can't be reasoned with. They find comfort in their hate and won't move beyond it.
When I hear Jasbot say something like "time is running out for you", I also hear a "tick..tick..." sound coming from her/it.
Hello JF
What a loud of crap!
Do you not analyse the information that you are provided with? Who created the documentary you watched? Was it directed/ produced by a Jew? You need to understand the source of the information before you accept everything as gospel. Where you not taught at school to question things?
It sounds like that the documentary you watched was a thinly veiled propaganda piece to encourage Americans to disdain Muslims.
Can’t you see that the government is using the media to justify there military presence in the Middle East.
Don’t be a fool.
Let me ask you this question.
What do you think of Pakistan?
Pakistan is a strictly Muslim country. Oh yes they are having problems with there democracy, but guess what they are Americas allies on the war against terrorism.
So how does that fit in with your neat little box?
Katie, you are an anti-semitic piece of crap. Because it is directed by a Jew it can't be factual?
Go die in a hole somewhere. No one will miss you.
Jenin was a camp in Lebanon for Palestinian refugees! The IDF invaded it in yet another misguided attempt to capture some alleged terrorists. The fact is that most people there at the time where civilians- most of the dead where women and children.
Bernei! The atrocity lies not in the amount that were killed but the manner in which they died. Using innocent people as human shields is abominable.
I am not attempting to excuse any terrible act committed by any terrorist. But then, these people operate outside the law. The IDF on the other hand is bound to the rules of international humanitarian law, which it is has blatantly ignored on this and many other occasions. Why do you insist on denying something which is a plain fact?
Nate, I don't think Katie-ann was intentionally being anti-semitic. It seems to me that she was attempting to point out that no one is beyond using propaganda.
I haven't seen this documentary so I can't comment on it specifically but I can recommend one called 'Promises'. Made by Jewish-American filmmakers it follows a few months in the lives of Israeli and Muslim children living in Jerusalem and their attempts to meet with each other and discuss the future of their city.
It is heart breaking to see the children form friendships that they themselves know are doomed.
And for those of you like JF who believe that Muslims are beyond feeling any human compassion, I would like you to think about the story of Ahmad Ismail Khatib. He was a twelve year old Palestinian boy who was killed by Israeli soldiers in the town of Jenin.
Instead of succumbing to rage and hatred his parents donated his organs to an Israeli hospital. This overwhelmingly humanitarian act saved the lives of six Israeli's- five of them children.
The boy's mother said 'we have no problem whether it is an Israeli or Palestinian who receives his organs because it will give them life."
Israel's parliamentary speaker Reuvan Rivlin praised this as a "remarkable gesture".
The father of the girl who received Ahmad's heart called it "a gesture of love".
Please, people, please stop and consider for a moment that there are good people everywhere. I really don't understand why we have to argue and insult each other when we should be working together to make this world-the only one we will ever have-a better place.
JF!!!! It seems to me that you also "find comfort in your hate". Are you calling Jasmine a terrorist just because she doesn't agree with you? Just because she doesn't hate Msulims the way you do?
If you are so much better than these Muslim barbarians then prove it! Move beyond your hatred. Show the world how benevolent and loving you can be.
Yeah, I didn't think so.
JF
No I am asking you to think about the motive behind the direction and production of the film. I am asking you to be logical with your rationalisation and not to simply accept information that you view. You know a lot can be learned from T.V but not eveything Homer Simpson, Opps I mean JF.
Just remember that with every picture that is taken, it is framed to show the veiwer a certain perspective. Try to think out side that frame and ask your self what is left out.
I hope that this information helps you with your thought proccess.
It is never bad to question anything. My fear is that your not.
P.S JF
Was I right? Was it directed/produced by a Jew?
Dear Bernie
I think you need to see a therapist.
You are suffering from a psychological disorder called Xenophobia.
Your not the first to have suffered from it. A lot of other famous people have too.
I pray for your salvation.
nicely put John.
Dear John, Obviously you have not bothered to look up the definition of Xenophobia (A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples) nor have you read any of my many articles on immigration because then you would have seen I have no problem with immigrants or people from foreign countries. I am for unrestricted immigration as long as it is documented and they arrive legally. 99% of my hundreds of employees are immigrants. I have traveled to dozens of foreign countries and studied in a few of them. I have respect and admiration for all foreigners.
I have fear of only one group, and they do not necessarily have to be foreigners, they can be American born as well: Muslims.
You might want to call me a bigot but that would not be accurate (if you use a dictionary) since I do not hold all other religions other than my own in contempt, only Islam.
If you truly want to be accurate and pray for my salvation, you can call me an Islamophobe, an appellation I gladly welcome. And while you pray for my salvation you should note that there are hundreds of millions of Muslims who pray for your conversion or death, just so you know, since you obviously have your head up your prayerbook.
Excellent, Bernie. As disgusting as assassins may be, at least they werre selective. They were also loaded after smoking a whole camel-load of haskish.
It seems that no one really knows exactly what happened in Jenin in April 2002. Each side ahs an axe to grind and claims there version as gospel.
This is from TIME Magazine, The Battle of Jenin, http://www.time.com/time/2002/je...enin/
story.html :
"A Time investigation concludes that there was no wanton massacre in Jenin, no deliberate slaughter of Palestinians by Israeli soldiers. But the 12 days of fighting took a severe toll on the camp. According to the U.N., 54 Palestinians are confirmed dead. An additional 49 are missing; it is unclear how many of them perished in the fighting and how many either fled or were captured by Israeli troops. In the final count, there may well be fewer dead in Jenin than the 78 killed in Nablus Casbah in a battle that took place at the same time. But it is Jenin that has attracted worldwide attention because of the widespread destruction of property and because some of those who died during the fighting were mere spectators.
"Human Rights Watch, which in a published report last week also concluded that no massacre took place, nonetheless documented 22 civilian deaths and said the Israelis used excessive and indiscriminate force during the operation. Time found that as Israeli soldiers moved from house to house, they sometimes compelled Palestinian civilians to take the dangerous job of leading the approach to the buildings. On the other hand, a senior Palestinian military officer has admitted to Time that some of those who died were killed by rubble from the exploding booby traps with which Palestinian fighters had honeycombed the camp. "
I never claimed there was a widespread massacre in Jenin.
I was pointing out that that the IDF is not the paragon of virue that Bernie claims it is.
NIce quote from the UN. Like I said the atrocity lies in the fact that the IDF placed civilians in danger in order to save their own lives.
Remember to keep in mind that the militants are not bound by humanitarian law and whist this does not excuse their methods, it is the reason we call them terrorists. Israel, on the other hand is obliged to follow the law, which it obviously does not.
No point in trying to convince the world that you are better than those murderous terrorists when you employ exactly the same methods.
So if it is the Palestinians who
"deserve the contempt of the world"
than why does so much of the world have so much contempt for Israel?
Jasmine how the hell can you equate a suicide bomber with the IDF? Oooh 30 people died years ago - that is a bullshit reason. Start calling China's and Sudan's militaries terrorist organizations, then those of the Arab countries, then probably most of the countries in the western hemisphere who've committed something like this in their history and then Israel's.
>than why does so much of the world have so much contempt for Israel?
WHY DOES THE LEFT HATE ISRAEL?
I believe there are several reasons:
1. It is an easy way to express one's hatred for America.
2. Israel is viewed as an outpost of colonialism , and an active practitioner of it.
3. Israel is a western nation, and hence can be judged by the left. Israel is not protected by cultural relativism, as the Arabs are.
4. Leftist Christian churches can escape any lingering guilt about the Holocaust, by turning Israel into a villain. Some leftist churches hate Israel because they think this will help protect their members in the holy land— in other words they feel threatened.
5. Ferocious Muslim hatred of Israel and the Jews reinforces the natural cowardice of many on the left who go along with the Muslims to stay out of their line of fire.
6. Jewish leftists are prominent in the anti—Israel movement. This opens the floodgates for everybody else.
7. Israel is attacked because the secular left is appalled by the influence of religious settlers and their biblical connections to the land of Israel, and by the support for Israel by evangelical Christians, and Christian Zionists.
Nate,
Hey I never said that I approve of the methods of China's or the Sudan's government. Or any of the Arab nations for that matter.
The problem that I and much of 'the Left' has with Israel is that it is no better than these regimes yet continues to act out the 'oh poor me, I'm a just a small little country surrounded by these monsters that hate me" charade.
Give me a fucking break! A small little country that has the might of the US military behind it.
A small little country that has the Palestinian population-most of whom are not suicide bombers-living on their knees. Forcing them to carry I.D cards, restricting their freedom and their means of income, building a goddamn wall through the middle of the west bank forever cutting off family members from each other.
I am not anti-Israel per se. Whilst I may think it's inception was poorly thought out, the fact is, it exists now and the people there do have a right to live in peace.
However, it has committed war crimes, yet is not made to pay for them. Why?
You are mistaken when you say the Left does not criticize Arab nations. What we attempt to do is provide a distinction between the rulers of these countries and the people who have no choice but to live under them.
And what's with the Right's insistence on calling the Left cowards? How brave do you have to be when you have the world's biggest stockpile of nuclear weapons?
Her are some more violations of the Geneva Convention and other war crimes committed by Israel recently:
#refusing to allow non government organizations such as Doctors Without Borders access into Lebanon to attend to the wounded civilians during the 2006 war.
#bombing Gaza's power station in 2006, depriving 750 000 Palestinians of electricity (article 54 of the Geneva Convention states that it is "prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render useless, objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population). I think most would consider electricity indispensable,
particularly in the middle of a searing summer.
#April 3 2002: Israeli soldiers shoot and kill a US citizen (Suraida Saleh), as she holds her nine month old baby on her lap in the passenger seat of a car in Ramallah.
#Bethlehem April 2002: Civilians Samieh Abdeh(64) and her son Khaled (37) are shot inside their homes by Israeli soldiers. Family members watch them bleed to death as the soldiers then refuse ambulance entry into
their home.
All of these can be verified by a simple search in Google.
This does not even constitute the tip of the iceberg.
Don't worry, I will make sure you are informed of the multitude of other heinous acts committed by the oh-so-humanitarian State of Israel.
And here is a statistic that will knock your socks off:
Since Sept 29, 2000 the number of Israeli children killed by Palestinians is 199.
The number of Palestinian children killed by Israelis is 971.
Sources: Remember These Children and www.ifamericansknew.org).
If Americans knew indeed.
>'oh poor me, I'm a just a small little country surrounded by these monsters that hate me" charade.
How's that a charade? It's true.
>However, it has committed war crimes, yet is not made to pay for them. Why?
Not made to pay for them? Why then do 40% of all critical UN resolutions target Israel? Is Israel responsible for 40% of the evil in the entire world?
>You are mistaken when you say the Left does not criticize Arab nations. What we attempt to do is provide a distinction between the rulers of these countries and the people who have no choice but to live under them.
No choice? They created them. They support them.
Besides,
>A small little country that has the Palestinian population-most of whom are not suicide bombers-living on their knees. Forcing them to carry I.D cards, restricting their freedom and their means of income, building a goddamn wall through the middle of the west bank forever cutting off family members from each other.
Haha, first of all that's a pretty pathetic list of injustices. If I had 25,000 rockets launched at me per year I would be doing much worse than building a fence. If I had people targeting my civilians with bombs designed not only to explode, but to shoot out nails at high velocities designed to inflict damage on children and babies, I would be doing much worse.
If these people then elected terrorists to the government that deny my right to exist I would immediately march into their land and declare martial law.
How come I never hear anything from you Liberals about the ethnic cleansing the Palestinians demand? Not allowing any Jews in the West Bank? What the hell is that about? There are 1million Arabs with Israeli citizenships and more rights than all other Israelis but the Palis can't have a single Jew in the West Bank.
Secondly, I carry around three different I.D. cards with me at all times. That's not a grievance.
How come I don't hear from you Liberals about how homosexuals are regularly beaten and killed in the West Bank?
The fact is that for all Israel's flaws it has a thriving Democracy, Judiciary system and economy. You Liberals should be proud that something like that exists in the middle east.
>And what's with the Right's insistence on calling the Left cowards?
It stems from your moral relevance, you refuse to criticize third world societies on the same level as western societies.
Also it is scary how often leftist's and fanatical Islamic rightists view's coincide. You guys should be the worst of enemies, but it seems like you have a cordial relationship.
We don't understand why, and conclude you must be afraid.
Nate, those ID card are designed to prevent Palestinians who reside on the West Bank from accessing any other part of Jerusalem. Their every movement is monitored. They are essentially prisoners. I am not talking about a fucking driver's license here! If you want to compare it to anything compare it to a yellow triangle.
And you know it is possible to be critical of both US foreign policy and Islam. The two are not mutually exclusive.
I don't advocate the wearing of the hijab. I view it a symbol of male oppression over women and as a symbol of religious oppression in general.
However, that doesn't give me the right to demand the quarantine or genocide of the entire Muslim population as others on this site do.
I don't understand how the Right views things as simply black or white. God or evil. With us or against us.
There is a lot of grey in between you know.
Democracy cannot be forced onto a country. It is to be fought for and won by the people. Until the people of the Middle East are willing and able to demand it, then they will continue to live under the yoke of religion.
Any change to Islam must come from within Islam.
There is nothing that you can do about that.
And it is your own Right views that coincide with Islamic fundamentalism. You call for their destruction. They call for yours.
I don't see any difference between Muslims who call Israelis "Jewish pigs" and Americans who call Muslims "goat-fukkers". They are both ignorant, destructive statements.
And I would say, given that it is coming from a so-called 'civilized' country, the latter is far more destructive and ignorant.
ok I take back that statement about the 'yellow triangle'. it was a bit extreme and i hate it when people compare anyone to the nazi's so i won't do it either.
still, those ID cards are a nasty business.
>Nate, those ID card are designed to prevent Palestinians who reside on the West Bank from accessing any other part of Jerusalem. Their every movement is monitored. They are essentially prisoners. I am not talking about a fucking driver's license here!
This is untrue, millions of Palestinians come into Israel every day to work. Besides, the Palestinians reap what they sow - I don't know that if they supported a government that wanted my destruction I would let them into my country.
>Any change to Islam must come from within Islam.
There is nothing that you can do about that.
I disagree, I think you can coerce people into doing something.
>And I would say, given that it is coming from a so-called 'civilized' country, the latter is far more destructive and ignorant.
Here's the moral relevance thing again. The latter is not more destructive and ignorant, in fact it is a response even to the former. Refusal to judge them both on the same scale is one of the most disturbing parts of Liberalism.
So if it is the Palestinians who
"deserve the contempt of the world"
than why does so much of the world have so much contempt for Israel?
The Palestinians have deserved contempt and Israel has undeserved contempt.
There is a difference.
You know Bernie, you talk a lot but you don't really say anything. Why is the contempt leveled at Israel so undeserved?
Is it because Israeli's have killed 971 Palestinian children since sept 2000, compared to the 199 deaths of Israeli children at the hands of Palestinians? Now of course both these sums are horrific but that's a huge discrepancy don't you think?
This is a such an interesting statistic I think we need to dive into it further. You allege that Palestinians deliberately target children and that Israel does not target civilians at all. Yet Israeli's have killed four times as many children, CHILDREN, as Palestinians in the same time period!
Gosh imagine how many children would die if Israel wasn't so humanitarian and didn't try so hard to save civilian lives.
You need to take off your zionist colored glasses.
#ID Cards.
Yes, some are allowed into Jerusalem proper to work. It depends on the color of their cards. Others-most- are not. Many Palestinians who happened not be in the West Bank or Gaza at the time the ID cards were first handed out were denied ID cards and as a result have to leave Palestine every three months to renew their visas just to be allowed back into the Occupied Territories! Some of them have been doing this for decades. In recent times Israel has been denying Palestinians re-entry via the international borders. Leaving them with absolutely no place to go.
They have lived there all their lives, it is all they know and they are treated like tourists? With no rights? Is that really fair?
I know this is hard for some Muslim haters to believe, but Palestinians are human beings too. They have thoughts and feelings. When their rights are trampled like this. When they are relegated to the status of animals, it is only natural that they will want to fight back.
#I think you can coerce people into doing something...
America tried to coerce the USSR into democracy. Didn't work. Communism died when the people decided they had finally had enough and tore the Berlin wall down themselves.
Have you noticed how Islamic fundamentalism has risen in recent years? I think the more you try to force people to do something, the more they will do the opposite. It's human nature.
Before America's re-newed interest in the Middle East, Iranian students used to protest regularly against the fundamentalist government. Not anymore.
#moral relevance.
I am more disturbed at ignorant and hateful statements made by people in the West because I think it is destructive to our ideals of freedom and social progress.
Calling for the wanton destruction of an entire race of people is a regression into our less enlightened past and completely undermines the scientific, intellectual and humane achievements of the people who dedicated their lives to improving the human race.
What is the point of calling ourselves a civilized society if we behave the exact same way as the 'primitive barbarians' we are supposedly so superior too?
You know (most) people in the Middle East don't have free and easy access to information. Their education is limited. They are taught that the Koran is the final and unwavering word of God. They are purposely kept in a state of ignorance. No western music, no cinema, no non-Islamic literature.
We don't have those restrictions here. We have the wealth of hundreds of years of philosophy, science, poetry.
We are allowed to question the government and religion without the threat of death.
That is why I expect more from people in America. I fear we are turning our back on the true ideals of democracy and freedom and willingly handing our rights over to the government in some misguided attempt to feel safe and superior.
I would love to see a change in the Middle East too. I just don't think think that trying to bomb them into democracy is going to get anyone anywhere.
"Yet Israeli's have killed four times as many children, CHILDREN, as Palestinians in the same time period!"
Israel is more successful in protecting their children so fewer die, whereas Palestinians purposely put their children at risk for propaganda and missile defense purposes and are therefore more successful at getting their children killed.
If Israel wanted more of their own children to die then more would die - it is merely a matter of will and desire. It seems the Palestinians have the will and desire.
See my blog post 10 Palestinians Killed for Every Israeli is intolerable
Commenting by HaloScan
For Comment Guidelines, read Bernie's 8 Rules on Comments & Trackbacks
Hint: You can include an URL or link address in the comment body by enclosing it thus:
