I especially appreciate the fact that you have not become a hedonist simply because you don't have the time! Thus schedules doth make prudes of us all...
I think you raised an important point.
I think recognizing that the various explanations and approaches to tzadik v'raa lo, are just attempts, as elegant as they may be, but offer no real proof one way or the other. Likewise the myriad attempts to divine the reasons to what caused a tragedy (gay parade in Jlm= lebanon war/gush katif). And of course, the nearly 300,000 people killed by the Tsunami, were meant to be killed by some cosmic reckoning of a sin committed or more likely their real role was to be used as a nisoyon for wavering OJ's belief.
I remember reading an Israeli newspaper, after a terrorist attack, a chiloni commented to a dati, that it is easier for him to cope with tragedy because of his system of beliefs. The dati responded that is actually the exact opposite, it is much harder for him as someone who commits himself to God so much, to comprehend the why of tragedy.
It would indeed be very sadistic of a God,were he to exist,to have intentionally created us with all our frailties,the inevitable tragedies,diseases,looking forwad to the discrepancies of old age,& finally the grave.
That this "God" should demands & expects of us to be grateful to Him for the "gift of life",& in our few moments of "happiness & joy",expects of us to worship Him & argue about which book & laws He gave us-this is utter madness!
Were such a God or Gods to exist ,then our greatest tragedy is our very existence.
"it's so liberating. It really wipes so much of the guilt."
So now you're finally being honest. You don't want to be a Jew because it's too hard.
>then our greatest tragedy is our very existence.
should read:
is our & His very existence.
"You don't want to be a Jew because it's too hard."
JS--
That's not fair. For anything we do or participate in, we must always weigh what we put into it against what we get out of it.
If Judaism isn't paying me back for the investment of time, emotion and effort, then, yes, it's "too hard."
You seem to get a good deal out of being Jewish (indeed, so much that it seems beyond your imagination that someone might honestly hold a different opinion). Maybe-- just maybe-- you're not trying to see this from someone else's point of view.
How much effort have you really put into learning to speak Szechuan Chinese? Probably none; would it be fair to say that this is because it's "too hard?" I don't think so. You may simply have made the decision that your priorities lie elsewhere. For someone who thinks that Chinese literature contains all true wisdom, your decision might seem a bit irresponsible; for you, it might seem reasonable.
BJ, firstly let me say that I'm sorry for whatever tragedies you've experienced.
I think you're combining two things that needn't be combined. I can accept a God (I'm not saying I'm sure about it, just that the possibility exists) who makes us undergo terrible things. Think of Iyov. He knew he was blameless yet God gave him a hard time for unknown reasons. Iyov felt no guilt.
I too, appreciate the feeling of not having guilt anymore. For me, it's more of if there is a God, he did not leave me a clear set of instructions, so I must follow my internal compass. So there is no guilt for me either.
Either way, I still prefer the thought that maybe there is a reason for terrible events, even though I don't understand. I prefer that to just random tragedy.
Morgan,
>That's not fair. For anything we do or participate in, we must always weigh what we put into it against what we get out of it.
Not only is it not fair, it's just not an accurate assesment.
The fact that not believing wipes away guilt that should not have been there in the first place, does not mean it was too difficult, it means the guilt was misplaced.
Simon: Well, it's true. The other thing limiting my hedonism is money.
Rick: Exactly. There is no real proof. For me, being an atheist or a theist really just means leaning towards one argument or another.
JFT: Yes, it does seem sadistic when you look at it will a less accepting viewpoint.
JS: As usual you have missed the point. If it's deliberately, I can't help you. If it's accidental, why don't you read the post again more slowly?
Morgan: Yes, you're right. As I said in the post, "I never minded keeping most of the laws -- while I believed, the sacrifice was not too great."
But now that I don't believe... there are still reasons to participate in Judaism, and I still do of course. Just not with anywhere near the level of strictness that I used to. I guess it's flexidox really.
BHB: I think that you're right about the guilt, and that the two things aren't necessarily related. But for me they are. I wonder how much this depends on life experience.
Baal Habos: An interesting choice of text. The author of Job was obviously also struggling with the same phenomenon but, unlike many other examples of theodical literature, doesn't actually propose a solution. We might term that a "cop-out" if a religious person was to write it today. "Why did 6 million Jews die in the Shoah? Because God is a mystery": see, it doesn't really work.
The reality is that Job was composed, from a formative perspective, at a time when the wisdom movement was challenging itself in various ways. Along with Ecclesiastes, Job is sort of a 'post-wisdom' text. Understanding comes through study, according to our Sages; according to Job and Ecclesiastes there is no understanding, because God is inherently absurd.
(Absurd, of course, in the Camus sense of the term; I'm not being flippant)
I like the feeling of shabbat though I am fleidox. Mrs Flex just lighted the candles. I am sorry we didn't make the rendevoux at the Maruquis as it would have been interesting. Or very un-interesting as we are all just regular folks. AS for JS whatever works 4u. I have to deal enough bull between my parents and my kids.
Shabbat Shalom
BJ,
"Bottom line is, if this is what God is like, I don't believe in Him. So why should I listen to him?"
In many ways it's strange for me to be on the 'apologetic' side of religion as I was often among its fiercest critics, but it seems to me that God simply IS and that the various theological and philosophical schools are simply poor, human descriptions of what is ultimately of transcendent unknowability.
That the nature of the world apparently conflicts with the theological nature of God may simply be a factor of our intellectual insufficiency and not any sort of conclusive 'proof' against the existence of God.
That said, what then would it mean for God to 'command' anything and what would it mean to listen to those commands? As I see it, God is not a person and does not issue orders like some tribal chief. The Torah and our long history of Halachic living is a conceptual human approach to live with the transcendent invested in our daily lives, while also encouraging community cohesiveness and interdependence, family values, ethical behavior, discipline and so on. And I think that generally you'd agree it works rather well.
Halacha ought not to pretend that it issues directly from the will of God, but rather from the will of man that it reverberate with the highest values which we believe God must have in order to be worthy of reverence and awe. The rituals of lighting shabbos candles, for example, is blessed saying that God sanctified us with the commandment to light those candles, but it is well known that it is a rabbinic invention. I believe that the blessing - and all other blessing that use that formulation - can be taken in that we have accepted this act as an obligation _as if_ it came directly from the transcendent so that we can bring God into our world.
I only offer this brief religious reconstruction with the possibility that you may find it meaningful or helpful in whatever way. Far be it from me to say that this is definitely the way it is, but I believe it is a useful and meaningful way to think about living Halachically that doesn't impose on you beliefs that you'd find untenable.
Jewish Philosopher, it must be too difficult for you to accept facts like evolution and an ancient earth.
It is easy to accept God exists, a 3 year old can do it.
Nobody I know becomes agnostic or atheist because following a religion is too hard, it is because the real logical answers to the tough questions lead intellectually honest people to the conclusion that there is no evidence God exists.
OP,
>I only offer this brief religious reconstruction with the possibility that you may find it meaningful or helpful in whatever way. Far be it from me to say that this is definitely the way it is, but I believe it is a useful and meaningful way to think about living Halachically that doesn't impose on you beliefs that you'd find untenable.
OP, I think I'm finally over the "shock" of all my skepticism so I can finally pay attention to what you've been saying. It is somewhat intriguing. However, it only explains Positive ritual. How would you explain Negatives, such as Shaatnes, don't open lights on Shabbos, etc. And even positive rituals, praying for hours a day, sitting in shul listening to Chazoras Hashatz, etc. It's all overkill.
BH, have you ever read Moreh Nevuchim? Rambam dedicates the third part of the book to discussing the utility of the mitzvos. It's interesting to read because he believed that all of the mitzvos had a rational reason.
The general idea of mitvos, he believed, are to create a holy/godly nation and each mitvah can be understood to help in this. of course a lot of what Rambam was saying was his own personal speculation and could be wrong, but it is interesting to read because Rambam was not really a superstitious man (relatively speaking).
Baruch, it sounds interesting. Since, I'm basically forced to toe the line, it would be nice to rationalize it. Do you think the Rambam ever had to sit through all day in Shul on Yom Kippur? I don't they had any Piutim them. I imagine the Rambam would flip at what we go thru.
Simon: Interesting. Have I ever mentioned that you know too much?
Imflexidox: Me too.
Orthoprax: I do take your point but personally I feel it's silly to invent bizarre rituals and pretend that doing them will connect you to God. While I'm certainly still agnostic in terms of not knowing if the universe had a sentient creator, I'm definitely atheist in the sense that I don't attribute any morality to God. However I still enjoy many of the ritual of Judaism for sentimental and cultural reasons. And I don't really feel the urge to go out and eat treif for the sake of it. If I'm hungry when I'm out somewhere where there's nothing kosher I will eat what I like. But not just stam... the taava is not so great it seems!
BEAJ: Exactly.
BHB: I think you're right about Rambam. Having said that, I think that anyone from his era would be flipping.
Baruch: I really do need to read Moreh Nevuchim...
BJ,
"I feel it's silly to invent bizarre rituals and pretend that doing them will connect you to God"
Well, that is the point. You didn't invent them, did you? As Jewish rituals they already involve longstanding religious connotations of relationship between God and man.
Traditionally the relationship has been God who crossed the transcendental chasm and brought these commandments to man, but philosophically it can understood as man striving to traverse the chasm on his own terms.
"I'm definitely atheist in the sense that I don't attribute any morality to God"
I don't want to get into a whole debate about the nature and existence of God, but as I see it, if you believe that God 'created' everything then it follows that God also 'created' human nature and the means that lead to a good society or a bad society. The inherent nature of man and the intrinsic characteristics of man living in society requires an element of moral behavior to exist and persist.
You are free to believe that this whole organization was a fluke (though what have you you to compare it to?) or you may see it as a morally meaningful non-coincidence where something transcendent is at root.
I think the idea that davening can change our fate is a dangerous one. While I pray to God, I usually realize that whatever is going to happen is going to happen, and God already decided our fate, and in no way is it fair or just. And if he's so omnipotent, why the heck would our human please affect Him and his plan for us? I believe in God, but not a just God. Either God doesn't care about the details of our lives, or He does, but His plan is beyond human comprehension. Which of course is not such a satisfying answer to why bad things happen to good people, but at least it frees me from guilt in the same way that your disbelief in God frees you.
first of all let me say the the tone of the Frum group on yahoo turned disgustng & I don't even log on anymore. Now...Rabbis, Ohels, and prayful supplications are nothing. It's all like the Wizard of OZ. That's all the Lubavitcher Rebbe was..The Wiz. his followers
always had a heart, a brain, the abilty to conceive a child..but they didn't know it...and still don't
Guilt free in the sense of thinking there is some strange punishment you could have felt earlier. I know tragedy too. It ain't pleasant. liberation from all law maybe liberating now in a way but what happens as your kids grow up and you want to tow the line. You seem to be judging the world and Judaism from the point of view of a young mother.
BJ isn't the point of a meaningful life concern for others and a sense of obligation? I'm not saying you don't have that but what is your focus in life? or are you at a point in life in which you don't have focus? I guarantee you BJ the world you see with your eyes is only the tip of the iceberg and if we just think we can eat in it and die we are mistaken. I'm not threatening hellfire. I don't need to. I'm saying what goes on in a person's mind while they yet live. The time to reflect is well before death.
You're confusing liberation from law with liberation from guilt of tragedy being due to your personal shortcomings.
Why would I want to TOE the line when my kids grow up?
As for a meaningful life, I think that's a personal thing. Religion obviously didn't provide me with enough meaning for me to want to stick with it.
I don't think that Judaism is the only path, or even the best path, to "concern for others and a sense of obligation" and preventing hedonism.
"Why would I want to TOE the line when my kids grow up?"
Billie Jean you're so young your future self has to be spelled out for you. Ok I'll spell it out. Kids are influenced by parents otherwise there's no sense raising them. You will want your kids to be good I suppose. You will then I suppose start wondering if you provided them with enough info to not give you heartache. Billie Jean it seems like your asking for life to kick you in the head.
"As for a meaningful life, I think that's a personal thing. Religion obviously didn't provide me with enough meaning for me to want to stick with it."
Then why not totally leave?
"I don't think that Judaism is the only path, or even the best path, to "concern for others and a sense of obligation" and preventing hedonism."
There hasn't been a better way made yet. Certainly I don't think you will have enough time before your kids grow up to reinvent the wheel.
"You're confusing liberation from law with liberation from guilt of tragedy being due to your personal shortcomings."
No but it comes out the same. However a feeling of guilt over tragedies isn't required anyhow. Mida kineged mida comes from consequences to our actions we can see with our own eyes and should rightly be able to see how it occured.
>Billie Jean you're so young your future self has to be spelled out for you. Ok I'll spell it out. Kids are influenced by parents otherwise there's no sense raising them. You will want your kids to be good I suppose. You will then I suppose start wondering if you provided them with enough info to not give you heartache. Billie Jean it seems like your asking for life to kick you in the head.
I take offense at your condescending attitude. If you think I haven't thought through how I'm going to bring up my children you are vastly mistaken. My idea of "good" is obviously very different to yours and I don't feel Judaism is necessary to produce a good child.
>Then why not totally leave?
A. Because it doesn't suit me to right now.
B. Because I think I can participate in tradition without believing.
>There hasn't been a better way made yet. Certainly I don't think you will have enough time before your kids grow up to reinvent the wheel.
This is your opinion. I see many shortcomings in OJ upbringing that I specifically don't want my kids to have.
>No but it comes out the same. However a feeling of guilt over tragedies isn't required anyhow. Mida kineged mida comes from consequences to our actions we can see with our own eyes and should rightly be able to see how it occured.
No, it's not the same at all. And there are many, many circumstances in life that can not fairly be attributed to mida keneged mida. This attitude is completely abhorrent to me. Childhood cancer, birth defects, murder by suicide bombers, these are mida kineged mida? Do you realize how insensitive and unfair this attitude is? No, you don't, you just parrot it off without thinking about what it means for individual people who have tried their very best to be good frum people and yet have suffered tremendously.
"I take offense at your condescending attitude."
I don’t easily take offense. Do you really think you're not going to look back at yourself now with some wiser words to say about anything? A seemingly condescending attitude is sometimes just experience talking.
Billie Jean I wasn't saying mida kineged mida in the sense of some strange curse but in the sense of people causing problems for themselves or good happenings. Not everyone was raised with more primitive beliefs. So you aren't describing my beliefs and further I’m an expert at suffering tremendously despite being frum.
"My idea of "good" is obviously very different to yours and I don't feel Judaism is necessary to produce a good child."
Who said necessary? Am I advocating missionizing for Judaism? BJ you make assumptions about me from your experience but reality is bigger than your experience. Your notion of what mida kineged mida means for instance is not universal or even mainstream Jewish philosophy.
>A seemingly condescending attitude is sometimes just experience talking.
>>Billie Jean you're so young your future self has to be spelled out for you. Ok I'll spell it out.
I'm not sure how this could be construed as not condescending, but if that's not how you meant it then you obviously need to choose your words more carefully. Saying that you're going to spell something out can only imply that you think the person you're talking to is stupid.
>I wasn't saying mida kineged mida in the sense of some strange curse but in the sense of people causing problems for themselves or good happenings.
Yes, and as I said, that doesn't cut it in many situations. How do people cause their children or parents to be disabled or die? While I wasn't raised to believe that this was mida kineged mida, I have heard many rabbis in many circumstances try to make sense of why a senseless tragedy has occurred. Reasons have included: not adding a 'healing' name to a sick person, it being a test, it's a punishment for a sin.
This is simply not good enough for me.
>Who said necessary? Am I advocating missionizing for Judaism?
Well if you're not what are you trying to say? All you've suggested so far is that when I'm older I'll want to toe the line and be religious for my kids' sake. This is inane.
>BJ you make assumptions about me from your experience but reality is bigger than your experience.
Do you really think you're not being condescending?
You say in the other thread that you don't know me which is obviously true, and yet YOU make assumptions about my experience. On what basis? How do you know what my experience is?
I don't want to give the impression that I don't think I can learn from my elders. But it's completely pointless to say that when I'm older I'll be or feel x, y or z. Firstly I will still be myself, not you. And secondly it's not that helpful. Let me live my own life and unless you have some concrete advice that I like, you will remain to me a condescending old man with nothing to offer.
I'm not old. I'm old enough to be your older brother. But I feel like I'm old it from my life experience.
"I'm not sure how this could be construed as not condescending, but if that's not how you meant it then you obviously need to choose your words more carefully. Saying that you're going to spell something out can only imply that you think the person you're talking to is stupid."
So let me think you're stupid if you can see anything of value in what I'm saying. That's jumping the gun. I thought we are adults here. So no one is calling you stupid. And I wasn't telling you what your future will be. I was expressing concern for you for what it might be.
"And secondly it's not that helpful. Let me live my own life and unless you have some concrete advice that I like, you will remain to me a condescending old man with nothing to offer.
Billie Jean"
Nothing to offer anybody? If that's what you meant to say that's not nice.
OK, I'm really not sure what your point is now.
I am moving towards a future as a secular humanist with ties to my family's traditions. If you're concerned about that future ... then, what? So it's not what you would want or what you value. Too bad.
>I'm not old. I'm old enough to be your older brother. But I feel like I'm old it from my life experience.
Do you even know how old I am? And did it occur to you that others might also have plenty of life experience?
Again, I'm really not sure what your point is. Stop the obfuscation or go away.
“Do you even know how old I am?”
You one time gave us at least a clue.
“And did it occur to you that others might also have plenty of life experience?”
Of course.
"I am moving towards a future as a secular humanist with ties to my family's traditions. If you're concerned about that future ... then, what? So it's not what you would want or what you value. Too bad."
I was wondering about what you will be thinking in the future.
"Again, I'm really not sure what your point is. Stop the obfuscation or go away.
Billie Jean"
There is no obfuscation. You made a post and so I commented on it. I'll leave. I thought I would be a regular here.
OK, sorry, I was too rude before. All I meant was that you should try and make your points clear.
As to what I'll be thinking in the future, obviously no one can know that and I'll deal with it then. I am being intellectually honest with myself and as such I don't think I'll regret any decisions I make now.
Would you be concerned about my future if I was a good little frum girl? Because if not, your real concern is that I'm moving away from Judaism, not that I seem to have no meaning in life, which you can't substantiate (and are wrong about; there has always been meaning apart from Judaism in my life).
You're more than welcome to comment here but just note that this post is over a month old; I will post again when I feel like it (possibly soon but maybe not).
Billie Jeans thanks a lot. I was delayed in replying. There is meaning apart from Judaism in my life but no part of my life is an island and all good influences I allow to flow into each other. I haven't thought you don't find meaning in your life. I read now you do.
I know you have an attachment to Judaism deeper than what you can understand at this point. If you were a good little frum girl you would probably have other worries. I wasn't having in mind your future one way or another. I know you are on a journey and you are living in a time in which the secular and religious and semireligious worlds are going to change and so that's one thing beyond your control and you are on a journey even if the world will never change. Concern on my part is real. I express this towards all. Just ask Baal HaBos.
If you lived in a nonfrum neighborhood in the slower paced 20th century I would have a picture of a happy future as very probable because the future would be basicaly laid out in a certain direction. I really can't say that in our fast paced 21st Century. Good luck. Is TO really 95 and in Antartica as his profile shows?
Eeek. I regret making you apologize. I hate when people apologize to me. Especially if there nice like you.
If you want you can take that as my apology. I hate to apologize too but I hate even more people apologizing to me.
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