>5. I haven't learned for a while either.
That implies you used to learn.
There's the source of your problem. You know too much. If you'd be like your ancestors of hundreds of years ago, limiting yourslef to the Tsenna Renna you still be a fine jewess 
Interesting post. However, does anything you've really done put you outside the pale in a truly halachic, rather than societal sense?
1. Not only is there permission to drink stam halav, there are (Orthodox!) poskim who rule that in countries where Jews are enfranchised etc., regular govt-supervised milk is halav israel.
2. This is probably in large part because birkat hamazon has, over time, accreted to the point where it is massively burdensome, beyond the basic halachic requirements (read what R' Abadi has to say about this).
3. The specific requirements of seniut vary with time and place and are arguable. A strong case can definitely be made for pants.
4. While I personally believe in sex equality, the exact nature of women's obligation to pray under strict halacha is a topic of debate.
5. Same as for no. 4, but more so.
6. Stam yeinam is an interesting topic: there have been times and places in Jewish history (post-Rishonic) where it has been permitted. Stam yeinam does not equal yain nesech! There are other blogger type people
7. See R' Abadi. Just because they don't pay protection money to the kashrut authorities doesn't necessarily mean it's treif.
8. A little bit overblown. Someone learned, please tell me: what is the real, `ikar hadin about waiting between milk and meat?
9. (Again, someone more learned correct me if I'm wrong) Poskim can't agree on whether using electric lights, or electricity in general, is tikkun keli, boneh, makeh be'patish, hadlakah, hava`ara or something else. Not 100% clear why it should be asur (it's just that "frum" people don't use them). Re traffic light buttons, Machon Tzomet says that there is genuine reason to be mekel because of sakanah issue.
Just so you understand what I'm getting at, I'm not interested in arguing halachah. What does interest me is that there is a strong sociological aspect to "frumkeit" which often diverges from the actual halacha. Example: until very recently, most OJs didn't know or care very much about the laws of kemah yashan, even though it's an issur from the Torah to eat hadash -- and because of that, no-one would stake OJ identity on this issue. Whereas upholding certain stds of seniut, or a kipah, is seen as so important that it marks the wearer as being OJ or non-OJ, despite more tenuous halachic bases for those specific standards.
That was me. I've been verbose, and will stop now.
BHB: You might be right, but then how come all the other women I went to sem with are still frum?
Resh: You're right, although as I said I'm not interested in justifying myself halachically. However, I do think that if Judaism was more relaxed about theology (along the lines of Louis Jacobs) and halacha (seeing it as tradition rather than control), I might be happier to consider myself Orthodox.
BJ: agree 100% (again, my purpose was not to find limud zechut, but just to note something I find interesting).
It is definitely interesting. And I love a good kula. In the past I liked the approach that a kula sometimes is more of a challenge than a chumra.
Resh, if you ever want to write a guest post, just email me, bilbulatsia at gmail dot com.
BJ,
Ed will be happy to read this post.
1-5 are things many totaly orthodox people do, so not sure they should be on this list.
7. Most frum people won't do, but, you can make a case for it. How can vegetarian food be not kosher? The whole thing about not using not kosher pots is rediculous. The only chsash is that you are going to taste a taste of pork in your food. Everyone knows that is not going to happen
8. Again, this is only a minhag. The gemorah states explicitly as such. Moreover, according to all the ashkenazi Rishonim, even the chumrah minhag in the Gemorah only applies in special cases that you would probably never dream of doing (like eating the two in the same meal, or when you didnt wash your hands in between. The waiting thing is shitas Harambam which ashkenzaim have no reason to follow in the first place.
9. lights: Again, one can make a case this is ok. Obviously, the gemorah doesn't talk about it. Though, I think most poskim and Jews are machmir here, especialy if there is any metal in the light.
Blech thing sounds ussur.
This is not bad at all, especialy for someone who is skeptical and has no reason to follow the faith at all. You should be proud of yourself.
RL,
Regards your question:
The gemorah records a minhag of a certain amorah whose custom it was to wait between meet and milk. The first thing to note is the gemorah says it was a minhag. The next thing to note is that the amount of time he waited is "from meal to meal" IIRC, There are aproximatly 3 interpertations to that in the rishonim
1. shitas Harambam - 6 hours
2. Some of the baalei tosfos - as long as you don't eat the two in the same meal, but as long as you bentch and leave the table, you are fine
3. from meal to meal
The only one that is remotely problamtic here is the Rambam, but Ashkenazim have no reason to follow the Rambam. Moreover, the Rambam is clearly the most difficult reading in the sugya.
Finally, to note, IIRC, according to one daya in tosofos, the gemorah only means if you didn;t wash your hands. Since we always watch our hands, according to that dayuh, this whole din is not relevant anyway for us.
To note, the later ashkenazi poskim are machmir like the Rambam here, but I think they are being rediculous
BJ,
Very interesting list, and more interesting still are those rushing to shoe-horn it into halacha. (I'd say that you're solidly on the krum side, though.)
> Ed will be happy to read this post.
I did have him in mind. Don't know if he even visits though.
> This is not bad at all, especialy for someone who is skeptical and has no reason to follow the faith at all. You should be proud of yourself.
Thanks. I do still want to keep things. Just not because I think God wants me to. Flexidox, I guess.
Interesting info about the waiting. I have heard that there is a shitta that suggests 24 hours but that was never accepted. Wonder why...
David: thanks. Yes, all the fellow skeptics trying to save my soul!
I'll get back to y'all when I've eaten pork. I'm not going to do seafood in a hurry though so don't worry.
re lobster
why not?
the commercials for red lobster make it look good. but ive sat next to people eating it, and shrimp, and it simply doesnt do it.
i also dont see why pork should be more desirable than lampchops.
I did have him in mind. Don't know if he even visits though.
Tell him.
Interesting info about the waiting. I have heard that there is a shitta that suggests 24 hours but that was never accepted. Wonder why...
It is the father of the amorah who started this thing. The gemorah says a certain amorah says he is like vinegar the son of wine, for his father waited for 24 hours after meat, and he only waits from meal to meal. This underscores that it is a midat chasidut and never meant to be kept by everyone. Yet, somehow, we all got stuck with it.
BJ
I think this is an important post for the following reasons. Many skeptics are orthoprax and present themselves as OJ kosher, which is a hell of alot easier than coming out of the closet.
It takes alot of guts to start pushing the envelope, and changing your lifestyle, and not hiding the fact that you are a skeptic. It is not being done to rile up others (l'hachis), but it is trying to be true to yourself.
Happy: I just don't find seafood appealing. My non-Jewish (and non-frum) friends can't seem to agree about pig. Some of them say it's amazing and other say we're not missing anything. I will just have to find out for myself, when I've got rid of enough emotional baggage.
LF: Thanks for the context. If that amora was vinegar the son of wine, I wonder what that makes me. Carbon dioxide maybe? (Ack, I can't believe I just attempted a chemistry joke.)
Rick: for the moment I'm still mainly in the closet, apart from some subtle changes that some close friends could potentially pick up. My main rationale at the moment is not wanting to upset my parents, and wanting to remain in the framework that OJ provides. In some ways I would like to be more open but not just yet, anyway.
"I will probably eat treif meat at some stage..."
I'm curious (in part since I almost feel the same way), what's stopping you now?
> BHB: You might be right, but then how come all the other women I went to sem with are still frum?
I see you did not see my wink at the end of my comment!
Us O-prax are burdened till the day we die. Even though I am 'frei' I never really will be. When I am wolfing down a whopper or a steak at Ruth Kris I think "I am now eating treif".
Billy J. Your'e history is most interesting since I gleaned that your roots are somewhere on Eastern Pkwy. All I can say that it works for some.
Morgan: I think it's a psychological hurdle I need to get over. Or maybe I never will work up the courage. It's a pretty big symbol.
BHB: I wasn't being completely serious either. But I do think that the learning I have done (lots of "advanced" [for women] gemara where I was encouraged to think about solutions to problems and argue my point) definitely set me up for skepticism better than some.
Sam: Yes, my family is Lubavitch, but BT and hence more open to books, movies, non-frum/non-Jewish friends, etc. It all plays a part.
BJ,
Re the guest posting offer: thanks. I'm rather private, and busy, and it's easier for me to add my 2 cents from the peanut gallery. But you have a great blog.
And I love a good kula. In the past I liked the approach that a kula sometimes is more of a challenge than a chumra.
Ben Bag Bag omer: Hafoch bah, hafoch bah, deKulah bah.
DBS,
You missed my point. I wasn't doing a limud zechut, I was thinking out loud about a sociological issue.
Foxling,
I believe I even studied that sugya once, and thanks for refreshing my memory.
My list overlaps with yours a bit. I drink non-kosher smoothies if they're only fruit. Ive never kept chalav yisrael. I started wearing pants and short sleeves when I dug in Israel this summer, and now I regularly wear them (and I intend on covering my hair when I get married, or at least my head. Definitely I will be wearing hats of some sort). I don't learn or daven regularly, etc. And then when I do daven it's in an egal setting, and I do things like *gasp* read haftarah!
I think that if I just didn't daven at all, people might still consider me Orthodox, but because I daven at a non-Orthodox minyan (and end up davening more than I would were I only going to an Orthodox shul, thus making me more observant in a way) I'm automatically not Orthodox.
I think Orthodoxy feels more threatened by other types of Judaism than it is by skeptics/people who don't observe all the mitzvot. At least you know what you're doing is going against halacha. People like us might think we're right!
KoST: Welcome!
> At least you know what you're doing is going against halacha. People like us might think we're right!
You may be right. It's much easier for Orthodoxy to classify skeptics as kofrim. You don't quite fit in a box if you're Orthodox for the most part, but egal.
When I was completely MO, I often felt far frummer than my charedi female friends. They might have been stricter, but I participated in religious activities far more than they did. I think we each just looked down on each other the tiniest bit. At the height of my observance, I was learning regularly, and davening quite often with a minyan as a consequence, but also getting called up at women's minyanim. I confused people a lot. But, within Orthodoxy I still feel that's a more valid way to practice.
Congratulations, BJ. You have officially joined all the others who have become traitors among the Jewish people - such as the Hellenists, the Christians apostates, the Nazi collaborators, etc. You join an ancient, popular and noble tradition and you will end up in the same place they did.
Jacob,
I thought you were a Christian apostate. Jesus is going to be so mad...
I am a Christian apostate, and I am proud of it and I've never hidden it. Unlike some phonies around here.
> You join an ancient, popular and noble tradition and you will end up in the same place they did.
Well, as long as I don't have to hang out with you, I'm happy.
Seriously, I don't believe in life after death and am pretty sure I don't believe in God. I definitely don't believe in Yahweh/Hashem. So what effect are these threats meant to have on me, exactly?
Not threats, just facts. Now you will never be able to ask "Why didn't anyone tell me?" You've been told.
OK, I consider myself warned. I think I'll take the risk, though...
Jacob,
"I am a Christian apostate, and I am proud of it and I've never hidden it. Unlike some phonies around here."
You wanna swim in the lake of fire? Jesus loves you, you know, but he can only save you if you believe in him.
You have been warned.
Shellfish is way overrated; shrimp is pretty tasteless, and the major appeal of lobster is that it can be smothered in butter.
Pork is better; bacon I especially liked, ham not at all
(I'm about where you are in observance now- but coming from nonobservance...)
IMHO all the things on your list are only significant in the "slippery slope" sense (i.e. you start with these but where will you stop?).
The blech thing is a whole different story. Try to keep Shabbos as best you can.
"Foxling,
I believe I even studied that sugya once, and thanks for refreshing my memory.
Resh Lakish"
Well Resh Lakish it's been quite awhile since you were one of the Rabbis of the Talmud.
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