Having grown up as a "genetic" lutheran in a church-every-sunday family, it has been interesting to come to terms with my own transition from agnosticism to atheism. My (at the time) 6 year-old son's question "Is God real or just made up?" still rings in my ears several years later. At the time, all I could say in response was, "I don't know, what do you think?". He hasn't asked lately, but I often wonder what he does think. His question piqued memories of wondering the same thing at an early age. Hurray for PK to be having independent thoughts on the matter!
I'm not sure if I can agree that PK's atheism is pretty much his own decision. Is he old enough to make that decision ? Come to think of it, is he old enough to make ANY decisions ? If you don't trust him with most adult decisions, why d'you trust him with this ? Given the same leeway you gave PK, most children would reach the same conclusion as his. I think it's too early to let him make decisions about the existence of God, or to take any decisions he makes to that effect seriously.
Once again, this is one of those times when you claim some lifestyle choice that PK adheres to was totally his decision, and you had nothing to do with it. I'm always a bit skeptical. Like the long hair. That was his decision too, right ? Completely independent of any gentle suggestions mummy might have whispered in his ear ? I hope he doesn't grow up to rebel against you cos that happens, and if he does, he'll be the next Rick Santorum. I just read last week that Elisabeth Hasselbeck (from the View) is the a-hole republican b*tch she is because her parents were hippies. Not that it has anything to do with you, I'm just saying....
As an addendum to the previous post, kids like to copy their parents and they can detect subtle cues of approval/disapproval from you. You might not think you're influencing him, you might think how wonderful a kid he is, and how nice and coincidental it is that he happens to share all mummy's lifestyle tastes but I think you might be influencing him in subtle and passive ways that you yourself aren't aware of.
It's his own decision, sure. But of course it's influenced by the parents' beliefs. And almost certainly it will change over time -- even PZ Myers' kid questioned it for a while.
But so what? Becuse PK is young, his opinions about his beliefs aren't important? Aren't real? How can Dr & Mr B prevent him from believing what he will about God -- tell him a lot that he doesn't *actually* believe what he thinks he does? Maybe they should say "That's so cute! But you'll change your mind later, and you're only copying us anyhow, so it doesn't matter what you think."
Mellstrom, get over it. Plenty of people have liberal, atheist parents and don't grow up to be the next Rick Santorum. In fact, most people with liberal, atheist parents grow up to think Rick Santorum types are particularly full of shit. Dr. B has every right to raise her kid with any or no religion.
I do agree that, at this stage, PK would likely adopt whatever religious beliefs his parents did or didn't have. But, it's downright silly to suggest that Bitch Ph.D.'s secular, liberal leanings are likely to result in PK being the next Ned Flanders. (Remember, Flanders had liberal beatnik parents that he was rebelling against too).
What a wonderful resolution.
We all turn out to be just like our parents, unless we don't.
While Dr. B is liberal and humanist and all, I don't remember her describing herself as an atheist. I had thought she was an ambivalent Catholic.
It doesn't matter much if PK grows up to be an athiest, but it is wonderful that the kid in school got exposed to skepticism.
Lady Ms. Esq. I don't think it's silly to suggest PK may grow up to be anti-liberal. After all, it was a mere suggestion based on quite a few real life examples. It IS true that plenty of people with liberal parents grow up to be liberal themselves but I never denied that, and never made any claim to the contrary.
I agree with Mel, but can also see everybody else's points too, especially Thomas W. Higginson's. I'm thinking DrB is not an atheist, but rather an agnostic. And she's probably happy for PK being an "atheist" right now as to not be brainwashed into any one religion. Let him grow up and decide for himself (or not too).
Mellstrom, your comment to Dr. B about how her kid may grow up to be the next Rick Santorum serves no purpose except to provoke or annoy. Yes, it's true that PK (or anyone's kid) may grow up to be conservative or have different values than his parents. However, you didn't say that Dr. B's kid may grow up to be conservative. You invoked the name of the most reactionary, hateful bigot that I can imagine in your comparison. There's a difference between simply telling someone that her kid may rebel against her values and saying, "Your kid will be the next Rick Santorum."
mellstrom writes above: I think it's too early to let him make decisions about the existence of God.
This seems like a category mistake to me. Beliefs are not things that parents (or anyone) can allow or disallow. You can encourage, exemplify, censor, indoctrinate, brainwash and punish, but you cannot compel belief.
I was an atheist from about the age of ten, and knew it for sure a couple of years later. Looking back, my reasons for disbelief then are basically the same as they are now. What I lacked at ten was knowledge experience, and perspective, not the ability to reason. (And I'm sure many theists would say much the same.)
Lady Ms. Esq., I didn't say "Your kid will be the next Rick Santorum."
Here are my exact words :
"I hope he doesn't grow up to rebel against you cos that happens, and if he does, he'll be the next Rick Santorum."
I didn't think anyone would take that seriously but you came along and ridded me of that delusion.
Anyway I was just using colorful speech when I invoked SantoCUM's name. You know how some people say "your kid will be the next Einstein" rather than "your kid will be quite smart" ? (You know the kid is smart but you doubt he'll ever turn out as smart as einstein because very few people can/have). That's what I was doing in this case. The Santorum thing was a colorful exaggeration of what I really meant: "your kid might grow up to be conservative."
what I really meant: "your kid might grow up to be conservative".
I wonder if there's any good studies out there for laypersons like me that show the correlation between parents' political leanings versus their middle aged children? Is there a strong correlation, weak, or even perhaps negative?
Gdr, I don't think you can make meaningful decisions about the existence of god until you've learnt about scienc, evolution, origin of the universe, etc. Any decision made before then is premature, regardless of whether it turns out to be similar to the decision you make after you become fully informed.
Anyway I guess PK isn't being harmed by his beliefs. I haven't seen any studies done on kids raised atheist but I'm willing to bet that when it comes to moral fiber, they are on par with kids raised in religious (to varying degrees) households.
If you don't raise him believing in god and believing that you are accountable for your good deeds and sins, then at least lie to him about the existence of karma. Whatever, just try to convince him that even though there's no god to hold you accountable for your bad deeds, that doesn't mean you can commit bad deeds. My parents always told me that even though nobody (including my parents) is watching, god is watching. That served as a deterrent for me, for those times when I was out of the caring watch of my parents.
Alright I need to stop rambling and wrap this up. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of nice moral lessons for kids that come with religion, that come with the assumption that there is an omnipotent man up there watching you, judging you, and holding you accountable. That's a good lesson for kids. If you're going to throw the god thing out of the window, at least keep the nice moral lessons and cast them in a different context.
I'm curious, does he believe in Santa ? It'd be funny if he did.
OK, Mellstrom, maybe I read too much into it. However, in my opinion, bringing up Santorum's name added an element of drama and invective into the discussion that wasn't necessary.
And, TD, I actually remember coming across such a study as a poli sci undergrad 15 years ago. Of course, I don't have the study in front of me and I don't remember exact numbers. Plus, the study is now a little old. However, I clearly remember that the study found that children were much more likely to retain their parents' political party identification than their religion or other supposedly core values. I can remember that, even as a 19 year old, I found that surprising and interesting.
Mellstrom, if Dr B is in fact raising PK to believe there is no god, that has nothing to do with whether she is raising him to believe he is accountable for the things he does. Morality and responsibility are not restricted to theists, nor are all theists moral or responsible.
Wolfa I see your point. I do have a lot of doubts I could raise but I think it'd be pointless because people DO raise their kids in the atheist way and I guess they mostly turn out to be fine, upstanding adults with the same moral fiber as regular kids. So I guess that pretty much precludes any argument I can make against the idea.
PK is an atheist, but his atheism is vulgar and mechanistic.
B., I keep telling you, your son must think dialectically if he is going to develop a philosophy of praxis.
Did he get the illustrated "Hegel for Red-Diaper Babies" that I sent to Minneapolis?
Even very young kids can have pretty stubborn beliefs. At 3, my daughter informed me in no uncertain terms that girls wore dresses (because a friend at preschool told her). I countered that I was a girl and I wore pants, but she just looked at me scornfully and didn't wear pants until she was 5. I wasn't going to argue with her, but she was quite firm.
I mistakenly posted my last comment as 'anonymous'. Let me repost it:
Wolfa I see your point. I do have a lot of doubts I could raise but I think it'd be pointless because people DO raise their kids in the atheist way and I guess they mostly turn out to be fine, upstanding adults with the same moral fiber as regular kids. So I guess that pretty much precludes any argument I can make against the idea.
All I'm saying is that there are a lot of nice moral lessons for kids that come with religion, that come with the assumption that there is an omnipotent man up there watching you, judging you, and holding you accountable. That's a good lesson for kids.
Yeah, you can tell that's true because of all those atheists out in the world, today and throughout history, blowing each other up!
My kids are good because they want to be good, not because they think the boogeyman will get them if they misbehave. Somehow, even though they've never been to church or Sunday School, they know what the right thing to do is, without Divine Guidance.
Come to think of it, so do I! Perhaps it's all that practice we've gotten thinking for ourselves, holding ourselves accountable.
I wonder if there's any good studies out there for laypersons like me that show the correlation between parents' political leanings versus their middle aged children?
Yep. From a study quoted on Feministing a couple of months ago:
"80 percent of people that express a political party preference are voting like their folks."
http://feministing.com/archives/...ves/
005584.html
I'd also be curious if there's any correlation between religious affiliation and crime rate. This would be interesting for both the "atheists are just as 'good' if not better people'" arguments I'm hearing here as well as the "belief in a judgmental God is a deterrent" argument. I imagine such a study would be wrought with bias and experimental design issues, but would be very interesting. My hypothesis is a belief in God does deter kids and teenagers some, but by young adulthood, any effects probably becomes negligible and, perhaps, opposite in some cases (i.e. "I'm already 'saved' so I can do whatever I want and doom on you").
Thanks for the link Susan. Interesting!
You could raise doubts, sure. I could raise doubts that being brought up with a religion where there's a big omnipresent man (man?) watching and commenting on every single thing you do makes you moral.
I'd like to see a bit more description about the 80% of people vote the same way as their parents thing, because it sounds somewhat fishy to me. (At least 80% of people marry someone with the same political party preference?)
I'd like to see a bit more description about the 80% of people vote the same way as their parents thing
Here's a NY Times article on the study. Apparently, they think it might be genetic:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/
2...agewanted=print
and then you vote like your parent(s) and they rebel against you 
great conversation, and a wonderful example of how not everyone has a firm opinion on things and sometimes perspective can help.
maybe wait to tell your dad about the b/f until after the election?
If I lived in California, I would most definitely vote "no" on this. I'm even the mother of a teenaged daughter (who is 18 now). Thankfully, she's always felt she could come to me when she has a problem and did when she thought she was pregnant last year.
It often surprises people to learn I support a woman's right to choose. I'm not exactly a liberal and I'm not exactly a conservative. I hold beliefs and opinions that cross both "party lines".
As to religion, my thoughts have been shifting a lot lately. Eventually I'll get it figured out. My mother is Catholic (though she wasn't always). When I was a teenager she used to force me to go to church. Later she said it was so I could make up my own mind but I never got to choose the religion. It was always Southern Baptist. I decided long ago to let my daughter choose for herself and she has without any influence from me. At least my mother is happy. The kid decided to be Catholic.
Mellstorm, don't be a dork. First, I'm not an athiest. Second, I actually have been asking PK to let me cut his hair for the last three years. Third, the idea that without a belief in god, people have no sense of accountability for the good or bad that they do is ludicrous. Fourth, yes, PK does believe in Santa; he reasons, rather well imho, that he has direct evidence of Santa's existence (presents are left on Xmas morning), but no direct evidence of god's. But thanks for the assumption that I'm so foolish that I know less about how I actually parent than you do (have we ever met?), and that without a belief in god, my son is going to have no moral compass.
Anyway, as a Catholic, I think that the argument that we should believe in god in order to make ourselves be good is really rather blasphemous. God ought to be an end, rather than a means, by definition.
Interesting blog about Prop 85's abortion. I see the benefits of voting yes on it though. It would force children think about their actions a little more before they decide to have sex. Because if this proposition does get enforced then if their child gets pregnant then the child will be forced to tell their parents. I think a majority of parents would like to know if their kid got pregnant. Of course they'll be mad, but it would be good if the parent could help their child out.
Stephanie - Prop 85 in no way forces teens to tell their parents if they get pregnant. It forces teens to carry a pregnancy to term, find a circuitous (out of state or illegal) way to an abortion, or to tell their parents and then get the abortion. It also punishes young women exclusively (versus young men), and serves to make a "pregnancy is punishment" type of logic... and, in an incarnation that was only a few words different, it was defeated as prop 73 last year... (they had to change 20 words, and then they could put it back on the ballot, ignoring the idea that voters had already weighed in the previous year)
I wonder if there's any good studies out there for laypersons like me that show the correlation between parents' political leanings versus their middle aged children? Is there a strong correlation, weak, or even perhaps negative?
I can't remember any studies off the top off my head, but I looked into this a few years back, and the general rule seems to be that, individually, adult kids don't stray to far from their parents, on average. But those that do tend to stray in ways that create a pattern between generations. This last part is easy to see by looking at exit polls - assuming reasonable accuraccy - from the last few decades*.
Generally, people now aged 50-69 are more "liberal" than the 70 and overs, people aged 30-49 are more "conservative" than the 50-69 bracket, but still more "liberal" than the 70+, and those under 30 are more "liberal" than any of the other groups. (All this really means is is that they are more or less likely to vote for a Dem/Rep - it's not necessarily a reflection of actual views and values.)
This is, of course, an average, and doesn't say much about individuals or whether society currently trends "liberal" or "conservative." Plus, the line between "generations" is fuzzy and malleable. For example, it seems to me that the dividing line between Gen-Xers and Millenneals shifted on 9/11 and became more defined by one's job (or lack thereof) and family status (marriage/kids) at that point in time than one's actual age.
*I seriously recommend looking them up, they are quite fascinating. It's really interesting to see the statistical evidence that Gen-Xers rebelled against their parents (and the younger baby boomers against their more influentual older sibs) by rejecting the two-party system, but did so by embracing a "fiscal conservative." Something people like to forget when they talk about people becoming more conservative when they get older - it's more that they are more likely to be invested in the status quo, which doesn't always translate to common usage of "liberal" and "conservative." Plus, the now under 30 (er, maybe it's under 28, not sure) crowd had their way, Davis would still be in office, and Bustamante would have beat Schwarzenegger for the consolation prize. Younger voters picked Arnold my ass, it was the swing voting Boomers and first time Gen-X voters that got him into office.
I'm with Susan here - my offspring behaves in an ethical way, not because he's terrified that some supernatural being will punish him, but because I raised him to understand that doing the "right thing" because it is the "right thing" is the best and most rational way to lead one's life, and that his actions are his responsibility alone.
None of this "the devil made me do it" shite or "God told me to" nonsense. No confessing and getting absolution, say sorry and Poof! the consequences go away. Just civilised behaviour and his own conscience. So far, it's worked just fine.
There's something bothering me here about the reaction to PK's atheism. Why shouldn't Bitch respect his declaration of atheism no matter what happens later. PK's beliefs are bound to change and develop as he grows older, even if he stays an atheist for the rest of his life. It seems to me that Bitch is doing what I hope I do for my kids, which is to respect their ideas and their decisions (within boundaries).
You know, I raised my children to think. I told them the stories from the Bible, and I even took them to church if they wanted to go. We sat there and listened and they went to the youth events and so on and my son, well he is a fanatic, yep, he believes the Bible is literal, while my daughter, takes the Bible as symbolic and metaphoric. I'm thinking if you give your son the facts as you know them, and let him decide what he is able to belive in, then, when he is older, his view may change, may not, but you have at least informed him by giving him information. I don't see that letting a child decide to be an aethiests is any different than letting him or her decide to be a Baptist. Really, it's all about processing information that we provide. You can only mold a child for so long and then they become shape shifters, it's called growing up and they will do what they want to do, regardless of what they are taught at home. I mean, do all those little girls and boys who are raised in the church really abstain, nope, but they are taught to avoid their organs, right? Okay, way too much off topic.
It would force children think about their actions a little more before they decide to have sex.
Teenagers altering their behavior on the basis of a proposition passed by the voters of CA? If you believe that, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
Most kids wouldn't even be aware the law had changed, let alone having the ability to follow the LONG chain of reasoning between what the law says and their own decisions.
One good thing about being raised Roman Catholic in the Irish tradition is that belief in God is not really required, only belief in the Blessed Virgin. So, we got that going for us.
Also, we are not burdened with a lot of reflection and deep thinking. Devotion to ritual is more than sufficient and really quite comforting. Deep thinking is carried on between penitent and confessor and if you have a confessor like mine, its usually carried on over a jar and a cigar, the way God intended it.
As kids, we never worried over much about a bogeyman and punishment in the hereafter. Any punishment due us, and some not due us, was delivered fairly swiftly in the here and now and always by a familiar figure like Grandma or Pop or Auntie or someone like that.
You don't decide to believe in God or not - belief is a gift of grace (said the Protestant...). If PK doesn't believe in God, his mother telling him to isn't going to change that - it would, perhaps, make him lie about believeing, which does not strike me as productive.
I'm not trying to say that PK can't make his own decisions, by the way - I'm saying that our believing or not isn't something that other people should have opinions about, especially not if they are themselves believers...
Lalouve, what? Believers only can have an opinion on people's theism or atheism -- atheists can't?
I'm so tired of the idea that atheists have no morals or no moral compass because they don't believe in god. As far as I am concerned not having a god to be afraid of if I do something wrong (if that indeed is where a theist's morality comes from, which actually I doubt) makes me ultimately more 'faithful' to doing what is right. I do what is right because it is right, not because I really want to do what is wrong but am afraid of hell (or whatever) so I do what is right. Not to be righteous (haha), but thinking that morality can only be handed down by somene/thing on high is just silly. And I'm sick of it. Okay, sinking back into lurkdom now.
As a child I believed in Santa but not god for the same reasons as PK's: I had Christmas presents every year under the tree, but no proof at all of god's existence...
When I turned 9 or 10 I figured out that Santa was just my mother. Some people still have to figure that out about god.
Stephanie - Prop 85 in no way forces teens to tell their parents if they get pregnant. It forces teens to carry a pregnancy to term, find a circuitous (out of state or illegal) way to an abortion, or to tell their parents and then get the abortion.
Hm I guess I misread the prop 85 then Epi. I should take a look at it again. And I must have gotten confused by what I read from the original blog.
Teenagers altering their behavior on the basis of a proposition passed by the voters of CA? If you believe that, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
Most kids wouldn't even be aware the law had changed, let alone having the ability to follow the LONG chain of reasoning between what the law says and their own decisions.
And Grace, yeah I didn't think about it that way. It's true that most kids/teens don't even pay attention to anything that's related to the law. But I made this mistake in misunderstanding what prop 85 is, which I will look into more carefully...and hey I'm new to this blogging thing and have only been recently involved in the issues that come up with the law and government.
I've got a long way to go in understanding everything. Didn't mean any harm. That's definitely true though, kids aren't informed and don't even have the interest in paying attention to these sorts of things. It was a simple mistake, and a thought that wasn't thorough enough to completely understand the situation. I should do some more reading haha! Just go easy on me guys and gals!
It's always hard to react to this kind of well meaning drive-by. Too much is
predicated on the universal assumption of religiosity to see it as
harassing or offensive, I think. And it's too flip to say, "thanks, but we
have enough problems without worrying about some voyeur in the sky."
Is Mr. B a believer? It struck me as interesting that PK has (for the present) rejected a belief in God, though Dr. B professes a Catholic faith. I do tend to think that kids -- particularly young kids -- tend to mimic their parents beliefs (religious, political or other) both because they hold their parents in high esteem ("mama knows everything, so this must be the right belief") and because they are seeking approval from their parents ("look at me, mom, aren't you proud that I believe the right things?").
My little one is virulently anti-Bush and generally liberal minded. And while I like to think that's because she just a precociously forward thinking lass, I know alot of it surely has to do with the fact that when she expresses a nice liberal minded philosophy, she surely notes that this makes mommy very pleased with her.
I like that my girl "shares" alot of my values and beliefs -- but there is also something rewarding to see your kid feel secure and confident enough to adopt a belief all his/her own. So anyway, I found it interesting that PK and his mom seem to have divergent view on God.
@ Di Kotimy:
One of the useful observations that Heinlein made was that kids have their parents' beliefs until they escape and become independent. Until that time, they are not confronted with the need for alternate beliefs, and their existence is prima facie evidence that their beliefs are adequate and workable.
It follows that if your kids espouse a dislike for the current administration, they are being conservative, and not liberal.
No Nym -- my kid a conservative? You break my heart!
Wow...so now your vote will actually count, and so will his, instead of cancelling each other out. That's great!
glad to hear you were able to educate your dad about prop 85. he sounds like a smart man--and i bet he'd still have a very high opinion of you if you told him.
as mom to a 7yo, explaining god is like trying to explain the clouds or why it rains. he listens for a few minutes then goes back to his pokemon.
Shaggy Maniac's child's inquiry in the first comment is a great, honest question, and one upon which entire theologies and doctrines balance.
"Is God real or just made up?"
The answer is: "Yes!"
And the quest of life -- my own spiritual life, anyway -- is to strip away the made-up part, my own and others', so I can occasionally receive the blessing of experiencing the real deal.
And in the meantime, to try to be more Jesusy than not: to love God with all my heart and soul and mind, and to love my neighbor as myself; and to do justice, love kindness, and to walk humbly with God.
To paraphrase something written by Zen teacher Cheri Huber (quoting from memory here), "If you're good only because you're afraid of what will happen if you're not, you're not really good -- you're just afraid."
She also points out that these questions all come from the belief that we are all inherently HORRIBLE and BAD and EVIL and only the FEAR OF GOD keeps us from doing TERRIBLE THINGS. Those of us who don't think that's true have no trouble with the idea that one can be good and do the right thing just because it's the right thing to do.
Ooh, this is a good thread.
My mom became un-Catholic (but still nominally a believer) when I was about 4, and I suspect my dad had become an atheist. Nobody told me anything about a god one way or another, and atheism has made perfect sense to me my whole life. My husband grew up Catholic and found his way to atheism, as well.
I see no reason to inform my kid about god or offer up theism as an option for him. (I've just ordered Richard Dawkins' book, The God Delusion, and can't wait to dig in.) Looking at the reality I see, there's no spiritual being hovering about, so from my standpoint, it would be tantamount to teaching him that 2 + 2 = 5. What parents who believe in god would explain to their kid, "Hey, some people don't believe in god at all. You should look into that"? Nobody. I find it offensive to be told that I ought to offer my kid religious beliefs. If he decides to look into anything when he's older, I can't prevent it, but I'm under no obligation to "present both sides."
Amazing. DrB's post prompts debate about the virtue or lack thereof in training one's kids to be religious or not. The alternate debate is apparently about whether a kid can make "independent" decisions at 7 years (or however old PK is.)
Only an Erudite Redneck seems to have gotten the former, and my kids, who are (quite literally) walking on water as I write (and, professing athiesm, to my Unitarian dogma) seem befuddled by the latter.
I liked the response from DrB's dad, by the way. What else could he say, after all? And, what is a child (DrB in this case) supposed to feel other than conflict, guilt, and love? Gosh, that's a killer for all of us--whether religion or some other disappointment. It is the condition of parent/child relations, I think.
And, for a really funny image, imagine PK returning home in 30 years with a copy of the Good Book, asking mom to accept Christ. What does the parent do, when life happens? ...
I will find out, I suppose, because I have some serious karmic debts to repay.
(I've just ordered Richard Dawkins' book, The God Delusion, and can't wait to dig in.)
Same here. There's a nice appetizer over at HuffPo:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/
ri...nl_b_32164.html
wolfa:
On the contrary, I think atheists are the only ones entitled to an opinion on religiosity. If one believes, as I am supposed to do (although I am not perfectly in line with all of my church's teachings) that belief is a gift, not an achievement, commenting on people's faith is rude and meaningless. Atheists, on the other hand, who belive that belief is a choice, are of course free to have opinions on other people's choices.
Re. kids believing what parents teach them--it's interesting, b/c PK is virulently anti-Bush. I actually tell him that it's not okay to call the president names, whether we like him or not, because he *is* the president (and because PK is a little kid). But as far as I can tell, he hasn't picked up anti-Bushism from Mr. B. or I Bush-bashing. Rather, he's gotten it because he's heard us talking about the war or Gitmo or Abu Ghraib or whatever, and asked what we were discussing. And I've tried to explain things as clearly and neutrally as I can--"some people say this kind of torture is necessary to find things out. But other people think it is wrong to torture, no matter what, and some of the people being tortured are innocent." I'm sure, of course, that my attempts at neutral explanations are colored by my own viewpoints on these issues, but it's nonetheless interesting to me that he is forming his own political opinions, sort of, based on being given information about the issues and drawing his own conclusions.
I have been an atheist since the age of 5, despite the fact that both my parents are at least vaguely theistic/Christian, and am now twenty-two years old and just as firm in my beliefs (or lack of them) as ever. Children cannot be compelled to suspend disbelief until they are at a more 'appropriate' age. If it smells like bullshit at that age, that's probably not going to change as they grow older.
Having a few kids, I have found a lot of it is genetic - different kids will be amenable to faith, some will resist it. I suppose this is why the Jesuits considered the first seven year to be critical, as the natural skeptics needed to be reshaped in their mental processes by then.
My seven year old recently told me that he did not believe in god because evolution proved there was no god. I had to start teaching him formal logic (syllogisms, false dilemmas) in order to encourage him to think for himself.
I don't know if belief is a choice; it seems absurd to me, that you can *choose* to believe in god or not. But sorry, I misread your post.
I also think that, sure, not acting badly cause you're afraid of being punished isn't ideal -- but in the end, you're still doing good things, which is better than not doing them, and the reason doesn't matter so much compared to the effect.
Wolfa: no problem - I didn't express myself too clearly. I'm happy no one took offense at my clumsy attempt to clarify what I meant.
BTW, I went in the opposite direction to most people here - agnostic parents, myself religious. This, incidentally, makes me a minority here, where 4 % of the population attends church on Sundays...
My seven year old recently told me that he did not believe in god because evolution proved there was no god.
He's close! Evolution proves (any) god is just very, very improbable.
Lalouve, my sister went in the same direction as you. (Except we don't really know *what* my father believes.) Though we always had the cultural stuff w/heavy religious overtones, so it wasn't that huge a move, in other ways.
I think kids tend to be way black-and-whiter (blacker-and-whiter?) than adults -- I was terribly black and white, and fairly conservative, from PK's age until about 12 or 13. I'm pretty sure they've shown there's a lot of brain developing still.
I don't think that belief is necessarily a choice; someone might choose to believe or not in, say, virgin birth, but as far as believing in the (non)existence of deities--more "that's just the way it is." I'm simply too, too, *materialistic* to believe in an unseen divinity without proof. It's not wired into my brain. I can no more choose to be theist than someone who believes in reincarnation not because they were taught that but because it seemed natural to their worldview can suddenly decide to believe that we have only one chance at life on this earth and that after death we all either go to heaven or to hell or to purgatory or to limbo. And because of that, it's certainly not my place to judge anyone for another worldview, because, well, it's not like I chose mine either. (The finer points, maybe, the ones that the religions argue over--but monotheism vs. polytheism vs. animism vs. pantheism vs. atheism vs. I-don't-know-what-else, for instance, no.) And I can't say that my worldview is necessarily more correct than anyone else's, but it is what works for me, part of me.
It's like when people talk about how homosexuality is so obviously a choice. Well, or, maybe, someone who is purely homosexual can no more choose to be attracted to someone of the opposite sex than you can choose to be attracted to someone of the same sex! Or the other response: er, why, exactly, would someone choose a lifestyle still so condemned by the rest of society; or why would anyone have made that choice back when "gross sexual indecency" still had a death sentence? And the same: yes, I'm sure that all of those Christians who were martyred in grotesque and painful ways way back when sure *chose* to believe what they did...
I can't believe so many people just assumed that Dr. B must be indoctrinating her son into the ways of atheism. Her Catholicism aside, kids that age can understand themselves well enough to declare their religious beliefs, and I can't imagine that even if she'd been atheist she wouldn't have made sure that PK had the information and support he needed to make such a decision without ignorance or fear being deciding factors. I mean, come on.
Ever since I can remember, I've been an atheist. When I was a child, I'm sure my mom must've said that she believed in God, but as I've gotten older and had more conversations with her, she's progressively moved from, "I'd like to believe" to what she told me a few months ago, "No, I can't believe that God exists because...". I have no idea what my dad believes, but he's pretty no-nonsense about things, so I imagine he's probably an atheist too. I'm culturally Jewish, an atheist, and I will go to my grave believing in Santa Claus. Who wouldn't want to believe in someone who's so festive and brings gifts?
re: Santa.
One of my favourite Anya moments:
ANYA: No, I mean, it’s a myth that it’s a myth. There is a Santa Claus.
XANDER: The advantage of having a thousand-year-old girlfriend. Inside scoop.
TARA: There’s a Santa Claus?
ANYA: Mm-hmm. Been around since, like, the 1500s. He wasn’t always called Santa, but you know, Christmas night, flying reindeer, coming down the chimney—all true.
DAWN: (smiles hopefully) All true?
ANYA: Well, he doesn’t traditionally bring presents so much as, you know, disembowel children, but otherwise…
A couple things have always appealed to me about Roman Catholicism.
First, its the faith of my fathers. And mothers. It links the generations of my clan across our diaspora and has succored us through some hard times. Who am I to reject it?
Second, its not an instrumental faith. We are taught to believe in God because we are commanded to, not because it makes us better persons.
I convinced my mother the same way--by telling her that the law should protect the weakest and most victimized members of our society, not victimize them further.
I see no reason to inform my kid about god or offer up theism as an option for him. (I've just ordered Richard Dawkins' book, The God Delusion, and can't wait to dig in.) Looking at the reality I see, there's no spiritual being hovering about, so from my standpoint, it would be tantamount to teaching him that 2 + 2 = 5. What parents who believe in god would explain to their kid, "Hey, some people don't believe in god at all. You should look into that"? Nobody. I find it offensive to be told that I ought to offer my kid religious beliefs. If he decides to look into anything when he's older, I can't prevent it, but I'm under no obligation to "present both sides."
Completely off topic, but there's a t-shirt I saw someplace online that I really want. It says "2+2=5 (for extremely large values of 2)". That just warmed my physics geek heart.
And you're right, I certainly feel no obligation to teach my kids about religion, no matter how much it would make my mother happy. However, since they go to a nominally christian daycare/preschool, they do get some indoctrination (the level of religiousness varies with the teacher, one of the pre-k teachers is apparently quite the believer). My oldest--he's 4--has told me that he believes in god because his teacher told him it was true. He was actually a bit upset when I told him that everybody believes different things and that some people, including his father and I, don't believe in god and in fact think that the whole thing is only make believe. I've encouraged him to think it out for himself, but again, he's 4, he believes lots of things (Santa, etc.--I figure he'll eventually grow out of it) and religion is something we pretty much ignore in our family. If he asks questions, I'll answer them and encourage him to think rationally about it (trying to teach critical thinking), but it isn't something I bring up on a regular basis.
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