what to do when one's preconceived notions of reality conflict with fact? reduce the facts to trivialities, of course! your ignorance is drooling out of your eye sockets on this one buddy. and shows exactly why the public might need to be educated on this fact. no wonder conservatives fear education.
anyway i would start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Kindi
follow some links, learn a few things and reconsider your position on this point.
My friend, conservatives not only DON'T fear education, they seem to be the only ones supporting it, via vouchers!
"anyway i would start here:"
That's great, but more important is where you would end. And THAT answer is simple. End by supporting Vouchers.
Or, were you suggesting Islam supports science?
I'd love to hear your hypothesis, and promise not to be as condescending as I was in the last comment (for which I apologize, earnestly).
ok now ya went and did it Kev...ya got me mad even b4 I had mah mornin coffee..argggggggg! 
Is this Barry guy just web hopping? He hopped in to insult me too...then poof...back under his bridge.
Hey, I thought Martin Luther or some other white Christian invented al-jabr (algebra) -- clearly the word sounds Teutonic!
In fact, algebra was in use in the time of ancient Greece, long before Islam or even Christianity existed my friend.
However, to be fair, "The first treatise on algebra was written by Diophantus of Alexandria in the 3rd century AD." Was there a lot of Islamy things going on back then?
Interestingly, it appears that the roots of modern American evangelical Christianity have about the same birthdate as the Wahhabist/ Salafi "fundamentalists" in Islam. Nice little over-reaction to demographic shifts and scientific advancements, in'it?
Is there ANY chance that we can all sit back and let the fundies in both religions just have it out? I would personally rather be on either of the sides that isn't rejecting science outright.
Oh, and BTW, the Earth didn't just have its Birthday on Oct. 23rd, and is older than the 6,000 some-odd year claim made by American fundies. See? Everyone has their nutcases when it comes to religion and science. But what do I know, I'm just the ghost of Pim's Ghost....
[But I'm only worried about the fundamentalists who want to kill me! - Kevin]
Dude.
Al-Gebra?
Where do you think the Arabic Numerals came from?
Wanker.
Did you edit my comment? ROFL...this is why I don't miss blogging.
Lex,
Kind of. I did not adjust your comment, but I added something to it in square brackets '[]'.
toby, I think Arabic numerals came from Arabia, but long before Islam got there, by hundreds of years. Do you disagree? I'm not saying Arabs are idiots. I'm saying Islam is. Look, the exhibit tried very hard to make it seem like Islam was good for science. They failed, because it isn't. They had nothing in there but examples of a few weeds to eat when you were feeling bad. Does that count as science to you?
This is less of a condemnation than of a fact. Islam is as anti-science as Christianity was before the Renaissance. Make what you want of it.
Kevin, yes, very efficient, a response within a response. See, I'm scared of the fundies who want to do me harm as well. But lately, where I live, being the culturally Orthodox/Catholic woman means getting the abuse, and not from the local Muslims. I'm already a dhimmi again on my own street, this time deemed so by evangelicals. I just don't have to pay them any money.
Lex, I had a very similar experience. I read a bloggers post where an evangelical implied that he didn't even think Catholics were Christians! I'm particularly non-religious at this point in life, but that's pretty offensive.
It got worse from there, because he then went on to denigrate Mormons with equal zeal in the very next post. I won't bother you with the details, but as bad as this man was (and still is), he never tried to kill me. He never suggested that my views should be suppressed. He never tried to shut me up... heck, he didn't even ban me from his site!
Lex, I don't know you, but I suspect your feeling of 'abuse' is relative. I just can't imagine an evangelical Christian would try to kill you, or try to make you lose your job, or even yell hateful things at you.
I'm fascinated by your story, Lex, assuming it's not "I wasn't invited to some bar-b-que because I'm not an evangelical Christian" or something. Could you tell us more?
Wait, I just remembered, this is the toast blog. There are not many visitors. Could you tell ME more?
Yeah, enough is on my blog. You really don't think that evangelicals will yell hateful things at people? And have their children do the same? By all means, come and visit. Of course they were insane, and are now paying two house payments to be rid of us "secular degenerate trash" and all. Still, it was rather shocking how quickly a few other families made their religious affiliations known. "Evangelical Free" it's called.
I suppose in the end it comes down to these "missionary trips" to Orthodox and Catholic majority countries. Tell me Kevin, do you think that it is ethically and morally just a tad bit cruel to go around telling people that their cultures' religion is "wrong", that certain practices are "idolatry", and that these peoples' family members who have passed away weren't "saved"? Don't you find it just a little evil to impose an American rooted interpretation of Christianity on people and in the process remove the belief in Purgatory and prayers for the dead? Because that's what they do, these missionaries, they've told me themselves.
This reminds me of one of those Gag gifts. My father got one for his borthday many years before. It was a book with the title, "Everything I Know About Golf" with his name as the author. When you opened the book every page was blank.
Why do so many people thing it's so necessary to mindlessly worship science? The science that, in 18th century France, refused to accept the existence of meteors because rocks can't fall from the sky. The science that believed the Piltdown Man hoax for 40 years. The science that told us just 30 years ago we'd die from a new ice age. A little more skepticism toward science is a good thing.
And it's not cruel to tell someone who claims to be a Christian that his beliefs are unBiblical if, in fact, they are. Intellectual and spiritual honesty can be difficult, but mature people should be able to handle them.
It's not cruel, Dwana, but it is pompous and unnecessarily divisive. Not to mention awfully presumptuous. If someone believes that Jesus is the son of God and accepts him, that should be enough for any Christian. Let God worry about the rest of the details.
It's fine to disagree with another Christian's sect, but not ok to say they aren't Christian because they don't agree with you.
Kevin, agreed, very pompous and especially self-serving when the "missions" are "seed-planting" ones, i.e. missions to start new branches of churches in other places. I know of one evangelical church of 500 people in the Midwest which has started two branches in rather touristy areas of Mexico and Brazil, all with local Catholics they have converted to their unaffiliated church.
Dwana--that's the point, it is THEIR opinion that prayers for the dead and Purgatory are wrong. It is furthermore a very evangelical American interpretation of mainline Reformist Protestantism (I think, along with Kevin, that we should be as undivided as possible, hence these missions are to me unnecessary) that is being pushed basically by scaring these people. But their opinion that Purgatory doesn't exist, fine, they can keep it. But don't push it on people who grew up with that belief along with teaching them that being a "real Christian" is not something that their deceased loved ones were. That is just bloody cruel!
"Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. For from now on in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father..."
Perhaps you'd like to take Jesus to task for having a divisive ministry.
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, ..."
I sure don't want to hook my wagon to that pony. You can sit in a garage and go vroom, vroom, but that doesn't make you a car.
All are purchased but not all are redeemed. Redemption applies only to those who receive Jesus as Lord and Savior, availing themselves of the value of His shed blood.
"Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." "
When the Word and Spirit work in tandem to draw us to the Father by way of His Son, we are reborn. Then we can call ourselves Christian.
It's not their opinion that purgatory is wrong. Purgatory simply does not square with God's Word, which is His opinion.
le
Ack! Le! Why?
This is exactly what I was talking about earlier in this thread. Your friend Doug did the same thing to me on your blog. If you don't believe in purgatory, why does it matter if someone else does? Do you think it will keep them out of the kingdom?
For that matter, so what if a group thinks Jesus also lived in North America, like the Mormons do (whom Doug also maligned). They still do the important part - accepting Jesus.
This is why I don't call myself a Christian, and CERTAINLY not religious. I've got Jesus with me, and I obey the rules of the bible as I understand them, but that's as far as I go. It's just not worth the arguments that inevitably ensue.
It seems horribly wrong to judge other's beliefs. Especially when they are so close.
That said, I'd judge a muslim's belief as 'ridiculous' in a second, so maybe I'm just a hypocrite.
I don't want to have a contentious discussion with you when clearly neither of us is willing to budge. But I will say that I believed I was saved long before I actually was. I could have died in that condition, but someone was brave enough to speak God's Word to me in truth and by God's grace, I heard.
If anyone wants to believe in purgatory, that is their prerogative. It doesn't square with the Bible, but that doesn't stop a whole lot of people from doing it. I think they are deceived. If it's wrong to make that judgment, then I stand guilty, and God will be my judge. And you can judge me any way you like.
God's Word is more than just a book to pick and choose what one wants to believe. It's the standard Jesus submitted to and that followers of Jesus are to submit to.
I don't want to continue this discussion on Toast. If you want to email me, feel free.
le
ps I am not saying that someone can't be saved if they believe in purgatory. Believing in wrong doctrine does not keep someone from heaven. There is one thing and one thing only that one needs to get to heaven: "Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." "
le
Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
We DO agree! At least to a point. That statement should be the end all, be all of Christianity. Either you are, or you aren't. Can't we let the rest of it fall by the wayside?
I certainly don't want to get into a scripture war with you, because you'd clearly tear me a new one with it. But His message seems as clear as a clarion call to me. "Love good. Despise evil. Come see me when you die." If someone wants to believe in purgatory as the Catholics do, or that Jesus walked the Earth in the US as the Mormons do, or even something crazy like 'pickles will taste like gouda cheese if you pray hard enough' as no one does (well, HOPEFULLY no one does)- who cares?
All Christian sects agree on at least one thing. And He is the only thing that matters. Our time would be better spent converting muslims than picking brands of Christianity, imo.
"But I will say that I believed I was saved long before I actually was."
As you probably know, I try to stay away from the religious/spiritual side of things on this blog, but I'd REALLY like to hear this story. Would you expand upon that sentence, le?
"...or even something crazy like 'pickles will taste like gouda cheese if you pray hard enough' as no one does (well, HOPEFULLY no one does)- who cares?"
If someone God has brought into my life believes gouda cheese IS God, as a Christian I'm obligated to share the truth. And if someone believes that by belonging to a church, they've got it made in the shade (i.e., they're saved), I'm obligated to share the truth. I have the great commission from Jesus (Mat 28.9); therefore, I am called to make disciples to Christ and "...not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you (I) heard" (Col. 1.23). That's where my part ends and God's part picks up. That's why I won't debate and debate, and get pulled into every rabbit hole -- because my part is short and simple.
I'm just obeying Jesus' command. A lot of people don't appreciate that and it certainly makes my life bumpy sometimes.
I'll put my testimony on FDW if Doug thinks that's okay. It will have to be in several parts, since it's loooonnng. You don't want me to even start here. lol
le
Darnit. I kind of banned myself from your/Doug's blog after he went on a tear against Catholics and then Mormons. I wasn't willing to stick around to see who he would bash next.
I also kind of promised I wouldn't read/comment on his posts anymore, which I'm regretting now, since I REALLY want to hear your story. But I don't want to be a liar. Even on the internet.
Would you be kind enough to link your story in the comments here when you write it? Those stories are the most fascinating of any. To me, at least.
Do I get points for eloquent use of 'kind of'?
You could always come visit our blog and just say this is really, really the last time. Last time was just "kind of" banning yourself. lol Or you could change your mind. Or you could even say something like, I got a little overheated there and I'm sorry. Kind of like a Dan Rather apology. I like to call it, "eating toast."
le
I said "kind of" too! lol
le
Wait, who went on a tear re: Catholics? I just like to tear back. No matter how much my Priest begs me not to...LOL.
Hah! No, you don't want to tear back at this guy. It would not spark a discussion where we could all grow in our understanding of anything. Anyway, Le really likes him, and I hope you can take my word for it that Le is a very good person. Plus, if you disagree with him, he'll just say 'you aren't a Christian' or 'you are a pagan' to disparage you.
In case I mislead you, Lex, I should say that while I was born Catholic, I am now some weird conglomerate of Catholic, Baptist, and a big chunk of Methodism, with a penchant for the joy I see going on in non-tongue-speaking Pentacostal churches. As you can see from that, no Christian on Earth has quite the strange faith that I do. I'm just betting that they are ALL correct.
I HATE the minor differences between Christian sects, like the Orthodox Christians making the sign of the cross in a transposed manner from Roman Catholics, or Pentacostals wearing their hair differently from others for biblical reasons. Or Baptists saying wine=grape juice. Or Creationism vs. Evolution.
These things don't matter! I'm not trying to convert you to my crazy beliefs, but can't we dwell more heavily on the one thing who binds us? I'll bet we all know who that is.
Dang, this is getting do deep for me. Let's all eat some toast!
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